From enigma_only at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 00:43:18 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:43:18 -0000 Subject: More Cernunnos - was (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99843 > Eustace_Scrubb: > > Another tidbit from this link: > "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, after the long night of > Samhain, which is often spent in adventuring between the worlds.... > > The Ninth Full Moon in this Lunar Calendar is called Cernobogmas and > is dedicated to the "Hunt for the Black Stag." " > > So in other words, the Celtic New Year's Eve is October 31 (Samhain), > a date of great significance in Harry Potter's world. And the moon > associated with Cernunnos would normally occur during the month of > July, the month of Harry's and Neville's births. (if I'm counting > right) > > You may be onto something here. > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Bonny again: Yes, that is some very interesting information! I also came across some more information today at http://www.geocities.com/indianpaganism/hornedgod.html - here are the highlights :) "...In his immediate surroundings are five types of animals. What these animals actually are is debatable, as it is difficult to say with absolute certainty. A couple of the animals which can be correctly identified, without debate, are those of the stag an d the horned serpent. The stag on his right-hand side stands very close to him, which suggests a strong connection to the animal and like Cernunnos the stag has seven tines on each antler, totaling in fourteen. In his left hand Cernunnos is holding a horned serpent which also appears on another two of the interior panels on the Gundestrup Cauldron, while in his right-hand he is holding a torque. Another of the animals next to him on his left appears to be either a dog or a wolf. The cause of more discussion has been the identifying of another of the other animals in the immediate proximity of Cernunnos, which scholars believe to be either a boar or a lion. The last of the five animals near Cernunnos looks to be a bull." "...In my research I have also came across the suggestion that the horned serpent shares the same meaning and symbolism of a staff. If the serpent is interpreted as a staff would it be a staff which had at its head three points, as this serpent does with its two horns and nose forming three points. In effect it could be interpreted as a trident...In the trident we find the magickal number three appearing with its association to the Goddess and the moon." >>>>Now me talking. I am wondering about the significance of the Bull, and how it can be related to the series. Everything else described can be related in some manner or another, so I am guessing this bull might fit in too. I find all these references to the moon interesting too (there were more mentions on pages referred to in my previous post) and I think that we have probably not seen the last of Lupin's werewolfisms if this mythology is relevant. It will be interesting to see if Harry ever learns to become animagus, and maybe uses this ability to subdue oor distract a werewolf!Lupin...? I am suprised that the kids have not even considered looking at becoming animagi before, considering their history. Bonny From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 01:14:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:14:32 -0000 Subject: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - prophecy implications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99844 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: Another tidbit from this link: "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, after the long night of Samhain, which is often spent in adventuring between the worlds.... The Ninth Full Moon in this Lunar Calendar is called Cernobogmas and is dedicated to the "Hunt for the Black Stag." " So in other words, the Celtic New Year's Eve is October 31 (Samhain), a date of great significance in Harry Potter's world. And the moon associated with Cernunnos would normally occur during the month of July, the month of Harry's and Neville's births. (if I'm counting right) Neri now: If the Celtic year starts on November 1st, then the end of the seventh month would be the end of May, not of July. This might have implications on the interpretation of the prophecy. Do we know anybody in HP whom his birthday is by the end of May? And what about other ancient calanders? Neri, who is awful with dates and can't remember the birthdays of his own family From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 00:02:40 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040601000240.21390.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99848 Melody wrote: Questions: 1) To those with power that are not clever, the clever are a bane to their existence. The powerful are really powerless to stop their creativity, so do they do it to try to limit it or force them to subject themselves to their power? Do they right so many laws to reign in their cleverness to keep them from overthrowing them, or do they do it to break their spirit? *** The powerful feel threatened by the clever and are afraid of loosing that power to the clever. Many will adopt a policy of first strike in order to try to throw the other off guard. They strike with what their strength is, and that is with power itself. 2) Hermione finally revealed she was almost in Ravenclaw. This has been a fan question for a long time. Did JKR add that bit in there to answer our question, or was is a natural progression in the book? Or another way of asking, why have they not asked this before? Or are the houses integrating more now and these questions often come up? *** I, myself, have actually seen Hermione as fitting into slytherin if it had not been for the fact of her parents. She is very clever and look at things like the polyjuice and the drugged cakes. 3) Where was Dumbledore during the Quidditch match? Is he trying to stay out of trouble and not give Umbridge cause to hate him more, or is he using this "away" time to get things done with the OoP? *** I cannot remember off hand how often DD showed up to the matches. For some reason I want to say that he only came to some but not all. I am probably wrong. But I did notice a theme throughout the book of DD staying a good bit to himself in general and allowing Umbridge a very liberal hand. I had the feeling that DD could have put a stop to a lot of the things going on but chose not to for some reason. I never really worked out why. 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who would win? *** I do not really get into the ship issues because I have generally been wrong all my life when it comes to ships of all types. To weigh in with my oppinion (so take what I say as what will NOT happen!!) I think that Luna did notice Ron at first but later she had more of a connection with Harry. Hermione had a bit of a spark of jelousy as far as I am concerned. The couples that I think will end up together will be Hermione and Ron, Luna and Harry, Ginny and Nevile. (Because I said it, it will NEVER happen!!) 5) Slytherin put a lot of time and effort in their tactics against Ron and the Gryffindor team. They spent many hours creating badges, writing the song,and teaching others to chant and sing together...a feat in and of itself since Slytherin is not thought of as clever, team workers, artistic, and able to sing on pitch (ok that one is assumed by me) Does this show a true willingness on Slytherin's side to actually work as a group for the good of a common goal even if that goal is for poor reasons? *** I would really like to know who arranged the whole thing because I cannot think of any of the slytherin's off hand who would be creative enough for it. Do I think that they could pull it off? Yes, very easily. It did not surprise me at all the actual fact of what they did, but the creativity behind it did. I could not see, for instance, one of the slytherin-trio doing something like that. 6) While we are readers, and the other three houses, hate the tactics used my Slytherin at the Quidditch match, it is actually very effective and ingenious. Worse is said at RL games today to the opposing team. Can Slytherin use this newfound talent for good instead of personal gain? *** As long as the common good included personal gain (as in what good is in it for me?- place the good on a more personal level), then, yes. 7) Umbridge, once again, has proved herself quit capable of being one sided, bias, manipulative, and very politically minded. Her desire for power over the situation at Hogwarts has shown to be more for herself than for the good of the community. Is her lack of confidence in herself and lack of respect from others fueling this rage about her seemingly lack of power, or can her thirst for power ever be quenched? *** In Umbridge's case, I see someone placed in a situation far over her head and in a position that she felt put her on equal footing with one of the most powerful wizzards that ever lived. For someone who is power-hungry, that is a very heady experience. With some people, the more power they get, the more greedy for it they become. It is a never ending spiral that only leads down. I also feel that when she took the position, she only saw power and did not see the reality of actually having to deal with kids and had no clue how to do it and as such, in self preservation, with her authority slipping out of her control, tried to tighten it. Think of a hand with sand in it. The looser the grip, the more that you can hold, the tighter the grip, the more that slips between the fingers. 8) Does she favor Slytherin because they have buttered her toast better than the other, submit themselves better than the others, or because she has alliances with their parents that she upholds? Or is it because they have ideals that she too holds? *** The slitherins know how to play someone like her almost instinctually. A power hungry person who is clueless is like putty in their hands. They knew it and took advantage where they could. 9) When the punishment out weighs the crime, does the punishment ever work in reforming the criminal? Or does it just inflame them more to reform the system? Can punishment really ever work on those smart enough and clever enough to fight the injustice of the system? *** Good question. I think it all has to do with the character of the one being punished. If the one being punished is of weak character, then you have a chance of the person rebelling and working harder against the system in negative ways. ("If I am going to be punished for it anyway, I ought to just go ahead and do it." or "I'll show them") 10) Once Lee Jordan graduates, who should take over as commentator? (I am cheering for Luna for the sheer amusement of it all...) *** Luna would have to be my choice as well!! Moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 03:02:50 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 03:02:50 -0000 Subject: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - prophecy implications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99849 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > Another tidbit from this link: > "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, after the long night of > Samhain, which is often spent in adventuring between the worlds.... > > The Ninth Full Moon in this Lunar Calendar is called Cernobogmas and > is dedicated to the "Hunt for the Black Stag." " > > So in other words, the Celtic New Year's Eve is October 31(Samhain), > a date of great significance in Harry Potter's world. And the moon > associated with Cernunnos would normally occur during the month of > July, the month of Harry's and Neville's births. (if I'm counting > right) Neri now: > > If the Celtic year starts on November 1st, then the end of the > seventh month would be the end of May, not of July. This might have > implications on the interpretation of the prophecy. Do we know > anybody in HP whom his birthday is by the end of May? > > And what about other ancient calanders? Eustace_Scrubb again: Oh, my! this could get complicated. However, in the actual action of the book, there's no indication that the wizarding world follows a calendar much different from the modern, Western European muggle calendar is there? (except of course that September 1 is always the same day of the week) I think that as we are pondering the Celtic influence on the stories, we're not going to find that the actual calendar of the books is Celtic. But we may be onto some of the influences that JKR is bringing to bear on the story. What's really important is looking at the folklore that goes with the Celtic calendar and seeing how the elements of that folklore might parallel the Harry Potter saga. Does that make sense? It's late enough that I'm not sure! Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 04:28:02 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:28:02 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > >Hedwigstalons wrote: > > Hi! > > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing > to > > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > > > > Kneasy: > > In fiction (and reality) heroes quite often come to a sticky end. > It's one > of the more depressing aspects of being a hero. Some pop their clogs > in a mutual blood-fest with the arch enemy (Arthur, El Cid), some cop > it in the neck from another monster at a later date later (Beowulf). > > > Neri now: > It is certainly true that the hero can die, but it depends a lot on > the genre. Mythological heroes (which Kneasy mostly mentioned, some > of which I snipped) usually die in the end of the story (although > there are some notable exceptions - Odysseus, Perseus, Rama). In > fairytales, OTOH, the hero almost always lives happily ever after. > Modern (last 200 years) adventure literature, mainly for children but > also for grown-ups, is modeled more after the fairytale genre than > the myth genre, and the hero usually survives. Even when he "dies" he > might still be resurrected (Sherlock Holmes being the famous > example). This is also true for Science Fiction, which includes many > cases of "universe building" more impressive than the Potterverse. > The style of HP is typical to this kind of literature. It is > certainly not myth or "modern myth" like LOTR. If I had to bet on > Harry's chances based on the genre's statistics I'd say he has about > 95% chances to live. > > Neri I think it's a little extreme to say that most heroes in myths die; it seems that way because the cultures that gave birth to those heroes--Gilgamesh, Moses, Gautama Shakyamuni, Jesus, etc--are interested not only in the hero's particular adventures, but in their whole lives. Gilgamesh, the Buddha, Jason, Moses, and many others die, yes, but they're old men when they die. Oh, and the other way that heroes exit their stories, if their stories don't simply end, like Odysseus's, is either to transcend, as Hercules does (he becomes a god), or to be reborn to another existence. Joseph Campbell's exploration of the hero journey archetype suggests that the hero ends by returning to the 'everyday' from which he came. He (it can be a she too) brings back some sort of boon--whether physical (a sword, a cup) or metaphysical (wisdom, a magic power). He can then either succeed or fail in rejoining society. Both choices are open to Harry. And we know, alive or dead, his adventure ends just before his eighteenth birthday. Antosha From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 05:18:53 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:18:53 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > >Hedwigstalons wrote: > > > Hi! > > > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > > > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing > > to > > > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > > > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! Lord Raglan's The Hero: A Study in Myth, Tradition and Drama (1937) found 22 thematic elements common to a variety of mythological heroes 1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin 2. His father is a king and 3. Often a near relative of his mother, but 4. The circumstances of his birth are unusual 5. He is often reputed to be the son of a god 6. At his birth an attempt is made to kill him, but 7. He is spirited away and 8. Reared by foster parents in a far country 9. We are told little or nothing of his childhood but 10. On reaching manhood he returns to his future kingdom 11. After victory over the king and/or giant/dragon/wild beast 12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor 13. Becomes king 14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and 15. Prescribes laws, but 16. Later loses favor with his subjects and/or God(s), and 17. Is driven from the city, after which 18. He meets with a mysterious death 19. Often at the top of a hill 20 His children, if any, do not succeed him 21 His body is not buried but nevertheless 22 He has one or more holy sepulchers Raglan then gives a score cord for several mythological heroes as to how many of these critieria they meet: Oedipus ? 19 Persues ? 18 Asclepios ? 12 Joseph ? 12 Nyikang ? 12 King Arthur ? 19 Theseus ? 20 Jason ? 15 Dionysius ? 19 Moses ? 20 Sigurd ? 11 Robin Hood ?13 Romulus ? 18 Apollo ?11 Elijah ? 9 Heracles ? 17 Pelops ? 13 Zeus ? 15 Watu Gunung ? 18 Llew Llawgyffees ? 17 As can be seen, our Harry meets so far with criteria #4, 6 , 7 , 8, 9 (sort of- we no info on Harry 0-18 months, and only sporadic info from 18 months to age 10 years 11 months), 10 (if we stretch the definition of adulthood to coming-of-age), & 11. Though Harry is not reputed to be the son of a god (#5), he is a celebrity, which is virtually the same thing in both the contemporary Wizarding World and our own. Too early to say on the rest, though I doubt any fictional holy sepulchers will be raised for Harry. - CMC From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 09:03:06 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:03:06 -0000 Subject: the word mundungus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99853 Don't know if this has been mentioned, probably has, search brought nothing on it, but I just wanted to mention that I was reading a list of fun word definitions and mundungus was listed as meaning stinky tobacco, reminding me of the scene at number 12, right before dinner, where Mundungus lights up a stinky cigar. psychobirdgirl From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 1 10:21:04 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:21:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] the word mundungus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040601102104.86027.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99854 psychobirdgirl wrote: psychobirdgirl said: Don't know if this has been mentioned, probably has, search brought nothing on it, but I just wanted to mention that I was reading a list of fun word definitions and mundungus was listed as meaning stinky tobacco, reminding me of the scene at number 12, right before dinner, where Mundungus lights up a stinky cigar. Now UdderPD I think that I should remind you that JKR told us this, although I believe she said 'a stinky kind of tobaco'. Hence his (MF) name. Was it in the interview with Stephan Fry in the Albert Hall? Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 1 02:24:42 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:24:42 -0400 Subject: Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99855 Since they are both working for Gringots, well, it might be possible. Do I remember correctly that Bill was transferred back to London? And Fleur is now there as well? So, who knows...anything is possible. Just another interesting thing to contemplate. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 01:19:14 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:19:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99856 Melody: > 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the > Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much > ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who > would win? I know the true SHIPpers on here aren't going to like this answer (and don't get me wrong, I've been known to SHIP myself at times), but couldn't Hermione's paying more attention to Ron than Harry in this scene be explained by the fact that it was Ron who really needed it at that moment? It was his first game, and he was practically having a heart attack from nervousness. Hermione always gives Harry whatever emotional support he needs in the moment as well, but Quiddich is old hat for him at this point, and it was Ron who needed her right then. I won't begin to speculate about Luna; her character is intriguing, but I don't think any of us can really claim to know what makes her tick at this point. --Cory P.S. And just to confess my own bias -- I do slightly prefer H/Hr over R/Hr, although my real hope is that regardless of who ends up together, it flows logically from the story and doesn't feel like pairings for the sake of pairings. From flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 08:19:32 2004 From: flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com (Samantha Thomas) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape taking over for Dumbledore Message-ID: <20040601081932.47310.qmail@web41605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99857 Perhaps you all may have already addressed this issue, but I was unable to find anything in the archives. On Mugglenet, the name origin page links the name Albus to Commodus, who was a terrible and childlike Roman emperor. In the wake of Commodus' murder, Septimus Severus took over and restored order. I understand where they're going with this, and it does seem an interesting twist, but I can't really see JKR taking this bit of history and spitting on the memory of Dumbledore like that. I could be fine with it if they weren't suggesting that Dumbledore was similar to Commodus, who was infamous for doing horrible things in office. (Perhaps she could be alluding to the rumors propogated by the MOM?) All in all, I think that deep down, Dumbledore isn't going to live to see Book 7, and if he does, he won't see much of it. It gives Harry more credibility as the Hero for the Ages if he defeats LV without Dumbledore's aid. And if Snape took Albus' place instead of the obvious choice, McGonagall, well, we all realize, I think that Snape really wouldn't relish in the thought of Harry gaining more notoriety. Just a few, seemingly connected late night thoughts.... ~~~~~~~~ Samantha ~~~~~~~~ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 05:50:45 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:50:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99858 Melody: > > Then you say: > > | 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the > | Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much > | ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who > | would win? > Lee: > > I don' know...I think maybe Luna realized this was Ron's first real game; > she knows what Harry can do, but sees/senses that Ron is plum scared and > nervous and gives him a little extra encouragement. She probably just > figures Ron really does need good luck to get him over his jitters. > > As far as Hermione is concerned, well...that may be the beginning of a bit > more interest in him...and a bit of empathy, too. Mike: I agree with Lee. Luna seems to have this inate ability to be sympathic with people who needs sympathy. Nothing seems to rattle her. We also see her in the last chapter with Harry. Since they have both lost someone close, there is a connection. I see her as someone who unconditionally accepts Harry for who he is. She will be a person who he can vent, and she would not be affected as Ron and Hermione were. I don't know who she will end up with in a relationship. I am one of those who don't look to much into those things. She is however a very facinating character. From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 13:24:13 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 07:24:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c447db$bbe7d840$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99859 Lee wrote: Since they are both working for Gringots, well, it might be possible. Do I remember correctly that Bill was transferred back to London? And Fleur is now there as well? So, who knows...anything is possible. Sherry now: I sort of thought we were supposed to think they were an item by the brief mention of them in OOTP. I can't remember the exact quote now, but I certainly got the idea they might be dating. Well, at least that Bill would like to be dating her. Sherry G From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 15:20:09 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:20:09 -0000 Subject: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20040601081932.47310.qmail@web41605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Samantha Thomas wrote: > ... the name origin ...links the name Albus to Commodus, who was a > terrible and childlike Roman emperor. In the wake of Commodus' > murder, Septimus Severus took over and restored order. ... > > ..., ..., Dumbledore isn't going to live to see Book 7, and if he > does, he won't see much of it. It gives Harry more credibility as > the Hero for the Ages if he defeats LV without Dumbledore's aid. > And if Snape took Albus' place instead of the obvious choice, > McGonagall, ..., I think that Snape really wouldn't relish in the > thought of Harry gaining more notoriety. > > Just a few, seemingly connected late night thoughts.... > > ~~~~~~~~ > Samantha > ~~~~~~~~ bboy_mn: I think we need to remember that there are several 'take over' positions related to Dumbledore. Who takes over the school? Who takes over The Order of the Phoenix? Who takes over the Wizengamot? Who takes over the Confederation of Wizards? Beind Deputy Head Mistress, McGonagall has already been chosen to take over the school, and a fine Headmistress she would be, if you ask me. Appointing a new member to the Wizengamot and the Confederation of Wizards wouldn't be that hard, certainl there are plenty of wizards waiting in line to take over. However, taking over the Order of the Phoenix is a much more difficult task. First, Dumbledore is probably carrying a lot of information related to his 'Plan' in his head; that makes if difficult for the next person to take over. Next, I don't see Snape in a postion or with the disposition to effectively run the Order. But, in Dumbledore's absents, I see the Order left with a power vacuum. There really isn't anyone remaining who has the knowledge, experience, skill, or magical power to fill his place. Snape, unless he has been outed as a spy, would not be in a position. Assuming he is a spy, he has to stay comfortably in the background. Unless Dumbledore's death comes near the very end of the last book, and a situation occurs that lends itself to Snape, and demands immediate and decisive action, I can't see Snape doing it. Mr. Weasley, much as I love him, doesn't seem like much of a strategist, and is not especially known for being decisive. Lupin seems very capable of strategy, decisiveness, good planning, and intelligent discussion, but I'm not sure I see him as a leader. I think he is great at getting involed and taking part when he's not in charge, but hesitant and uncertain, lacking confidence when the full weight of the circumstance falls on him. Harry? ...too young. He is very strong on courage, determination, and confidence as well as being a potentially powerful wizard, but lacking in knowledge and experience. In addition, he can be a little impulsive, not a good trait when cooler heads need to prevail. Sirius would have been a good candidate if things had worked out differently; brilliant mind, powerful wizard, strong leadership abilities, but there are some 'gaps' in his resume that cast doubt on him even in the best of circumstance. Also, like Harry, he's a bit impulsive. And last but probably most significant, is that those 'gaps' in his resume, have left him very ...how can I put this delicately... very pscholgically strained. Conclusion, while I agree Dumbledore will die, I really don't see a good canidate to replace him. Just a thought. bboy_mn From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Tue Jun 1 15:43:18 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? In-Reply-To: <000e01c447db$bbe7d840$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99861 Sherry said : I sort of thought we were supposed to think they were an item by the brief mention of them in OOTP. I can't remember the exact quote now, but I certainly got the idea they might be dating. Well, at least that Bill would like to be dating her. Lady Macbeth replied: Yes, by all estimations they're an item. They are indeed both working in Gringotts main office, presumably so that Bill (and possibly Fleur?) can be closer to Dumbledore and do work for the Order of the Phoenix. It was mentioned that Bill is "teaching Fleur English", but I can't find my book offhand (I just recently moved, and it's still packed away). I like to be mean and be of the opinion that Molly really does believe that's all that's happening between the two of them, but that's just me. The canon doesn't say definitively one way or another. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 15:53:08 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:53:08 -0000 Subject: chapter 19 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99862 Melody: > > 8) Does she {Umbridge} favor Slytherin because they have buttered her toast > > better than the other, submit themselves better than the others, or > > because she has alliances with their parents that she upholds? Or > is it because they have ideals that she too holds? Potioncat: > We know of at least one Ravenclaw whose mother works well with > Umbridge. And I would think there could be some in each House. But > if the Slytherins felt Umbridge was the one with the power, they > would support her. And she would eat that up! I wonder how the > Slytherin students view Snape's quiet disdain of her? Even if he > never disparages her, he doesn't speak well of her or help her either. Jen: And I'll bet Lucius gave Draco some instructions for the year, including 'get close to Umbridge and stay there'. Lucius would want someone to keep an eye on her and report back to him, as he doesn't completely trust this woman with ambition equal to his own (and Fudge in her back pocket as well). Melody > 10) Once Lee Jordan graduates, who should take over as commentator? > (I am cheering for Luna for the sheer amusement of it all...) Jen: I would absolutely love to see Hermione think she can give it a go, then fail and have to watch Luna take over!! Hee--that would be funny, and instructional for Hermione as well. Her inability to see what Luna (and others) bring to the table is her biggest shortcoming. Luna's intuitive knowledge is equal to Hermione's analytical abilities--and just as important. But, that will never happen since Hermione knows almost nothing about Quidditch and isn't interested in it. Maybe it will happen in another context. Like if Harry starts seeking Luna out for advice instead of Hermione--ooh, that would make her blood boil! Jen, who actually likes Hermione and doesn't understand why she suddenly wants to see Hermy squirm. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 1 15:55:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:55:27 -0000 Subject: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20040601081932.47310.qmail@web41605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99863 Samantha wrote: > Perhaps you all may have already addressed this issue, but I was unable > to find anything in the archives. On Mugglenet, the name origin page > links the name Albus to Commodus, who was a terrible and childlike Roman > emperor. In the wake of Commodus' murder, Septimus Severus took over > and restored order. I understand where they're going with this, and it > does seem an interesting twist, but I can't really see JKR taking this > bit of history and spitting on the memory of Dumbledore like that. Potioncat: Who knows with Jo, when she's borrowing from the story and when she just likes the name? I don't see Snape moving into such a high position at such a young age. (Well, young from a WW standpoint.) The Severus you mention is also named Lucius which I think may lead to a family connection between Snape and Malfoy.(Based on Jo's tendency to have close relatives have "themed" names.) I just read through that site on Mugglenet and found the background to Voldemort's name even more interesting than the one for Albus. Potioncat From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 16:10:43 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:10:43 -0000 Subject: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99864 bboy_mn: However, taking over the Order of the Phoenix is a much more difficult task. First, Dumbledore is probably carrying a lot of information related to his 'Plan' in his head; that makes if difficult for the next person to take over. Neri comments: Not as difficult as might seem at a first glance. That's what we have the Pensieve for... From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 16:59:45 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:59:45 -0000 Subject: Voldermortist? was Re: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99865 potioncat wrote: > I just read through that site on Mugglenet and found the background > to Voldemort's name even more interesting than the one for Albus. > Potioncat I have wondered about the "dark wizard in medieval times named Voldermortist". What is the source for this information? It is repeated on numerous web sites, but I can find no reference online to "Voldermortist" that does not also include our dear Dark Lord "Voldemort" as well...in other words the only on-line references to Voldermortist are Harry Potter-related. So I'm beginning to be a bit suspicious about Voldermortist--is he related to the crocodiles that live in the New York sewers? Can anyone enlighten me? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jun 1 17:22:11 2004 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:22:11 EDT Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old Message-ID: <1dc.22fe1ed4.2dee1543@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99866 My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? If yes, why couldn't he see thestrals sooner? Can someone help? Susan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 1 17:30:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:30:58 -0000 Subject: Voldermortist? was Re: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > potioncat wrote: > > > I just read through that site on Mugglenet and found the background > > to Voldemort's name even more interesting than the one for Albus. > > Potioncat > > I have wondered about the "dark wizard in medieval times named > Voldermortist". What is the source for this information? It is > repeated on numerous web sites, but I can find no reference online to > "Voldermortist" that does not also include our dear Dark Lord > "Voldemort" as well...in other words the only on-line references to > Voldermortist are Harry Potter-related. So I'm beginning to be a bit > suspicious about Voldermortist--is he related to the crocodiles that > live in the New York sewers? > > Can anyone enlighten me? > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Potioncat: I thought that story sounded a little too good to be true. Honest, I did! I hope this Voldermortist will not take off on its own. Potioncat (who would rather renew the running gag on Snape's twins than start a false background source thread.) From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Tue Jun 1 18:35:44 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:35:44 -0400 Subject: -=Spam=- RE: [HPforGrownups] Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c447db$bbe7d840$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040601143142.02b86b70@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99868 > >Sherry said : > >I sort of thought we were supposed to think they were an item by the brief >mention of them in OOTP. I can't remember the exact quote now, but I >certainly got the idea they might be dating. Well, at least that Bill would >like to be dating her. > > >Lady Macbeth replied: > >Yes, by all estimations they're an item. They are indeed both working in >Gringotts main office, presumably so that Bill (and possibly Fleur?) can be >closer to Dumbledore and do work for the Order of the Phoenix. > >It was mentioned that Bill is "teaching Fleur English", but I can't find my >book offhand (I just recently moved, and it's still packed away). > >I like to be mean and be of the opinion that Molly really does believe >that's all that's happening between the two of them, but that's just me. >The canon doesn't say definitively one way or another. > >-Lady Macbeth OOTP Chapter four: "Is Bill here?"Hharry asked. "I thought he was working in Egypt." "He applied for a desk job so he could come home and work for the Order," said Fred. "He says he misses the tombs, but," he smirked, "there are compensations. ..." "What d'you mean?" "Remember old Fleur Delacour?" said George. "She's got a job at Gringotts to _eemprove _'er _Eeenglish--" "--and Bill's been giving her a lot of private lessons," sniggered Fred. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 18:53:48 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:53:48 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: <1dc.22fe1ed4.2dee1543@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99869 Schlobin at a... wrote: > > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? If yes, why > couldn't he see thestrals sooner? > > Can someone help? > > Susan > > Another Susan here (teilani): Uh, I believe it was because he couldn't really remember her death, whereas he definitely saw Sirius go through the veil, and he was told be Remus et al that Sirius was really gone. Also, I got the impression that Luna actually witnessed her mom's accident, so that's why she could see them. Remember, all Harry could really remember was the green light and something about a flying motorcycle. IIRC, it wasn't until the dementors came alon that he started being able to hear his mom and dad being attacked by LV, and even then, there's no mention of him _seeing_ anything, like LV, if there were others in GH with LV, whether or not it was truly his dad or if it was someone else telling Lily to run, etc. Hope that helps :-) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 1 19:30:28 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:30:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99870 > Lynnette wrote: > That being said, as far as canon, Remus Lupin could NOT have been at the Potter home that night because he did not know the secret keeper had been ratboy. The only way for him to be at the home would have been if THE secret keeper had told him where the Potters were. Mandy here: Not necessarily so. As you say, Godrick's Hollow was under the Fedalius Charm and Remus thought, at that time, that Sirius was the Secret Keeper, but we saw in OotP that the secret password could be passed on from the Secret Keeper using a piece of paper. So it could theoretically be possible for Remus to have the Secret to revealed to him on paper without knowing the Sirius and Peter had switched, giving him access to the house. Or couldn't Remus have been outside the house talking with James and Lily when LV showed up out of the blue? That would depend on if the house and grounds were protected under the Fedalius Charm or just the house itself. Cheers, Mandy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 19:57:51 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:57:51 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: <1dc.22fe1ed4.2dee1543@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? If > yes, why couldn't he see thestrals sooner? > > Can someone help? > > Susan bboy_mn: Here is a better question that will help answer your son's question. After seeing Cedric die in Goblet of Fire, why couldn't Harry seen the Thestrals at the end of the year when they took the carriages down to the train station? Well, the first and most important answer Ms. Rowling herself gave us. She didn't want to introduce the Thestrals right at the end of the book and then just leave it hanging without explaination. It would have been a very jarring distraction that would have pulled attention and focus away from the 'wind-down' and conclusion of that story. So, in a sense, she had to invent an explanation, and this is the explanation she decided on. It takes a while to process death, to internalize it, and Harry hadn't fully come to grips with Cedrics death by the end of GoF. If you have had someone dear to you die, you are aware that there are stages of grieving. First is denial, then realization but still accompanied by disbelief. Eventually, we have acceptance then we move on. Until you cross through this process and reach the 'move on' stage, you haven't fully internalized that death. Now we come to your son's question regarding Lily's death. Harry was about 18 months old and the event occured at midnight. My explanation is based on two key points; 1.) he didn't see it, 2.) he didn't understand it. Logically, he was in bed, and most logically, he was in a baby's bed of some kind; crib, cradle, bassinet, etc.... While Harry was present in the room when Lily was killed, given that he was contained in a babies 'bed', is it likely that he was actually able to SEE anything? When he has his Dementor induced memories of Lily's death they are all about sounds he heard, there were no visual recollections. This tends to confirm my belief that while he was there, he didn't actually see it happen or see Lily's body. Then next part is probably the most important. I don't think an 18 month old child has the ability to process death; to comprehend it, understand it, grieve the loss, or internalize the event. In a sense, Harry lacked the ability to understand death, and therefore, would never have been able to gain the ability to see the Thestrals from it. It is only now when Harry is older, and is able to look back on those memories, and process that death with his more developed and mature mind that is is able to properly understand her death. I confess I've taken a very small comment by JKR and expanded it to what I think is a larger logical conclusion. If I am right, then it does very nicely explain why Harry couldn't see the Thestrals. Hopefully, if you accept my theory, you will be able to come up with a condensed version that your son can understand. 'Condensed versions' never were one of my strong suits. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 20:01:10 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:01:10 -0000 Subject: Who Hatched the Basilisk? was Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20040524132022.BFFM1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99872 > As for how to hatch one: > > A Rooster must lay the egg--during a certain phase of the moon, a lot of legends say, but I can't remember what phase off the top of my head... > It must be buried in a dung heap > It then must be tended by a toad (or some legends say a snake) until the egg hatches. > > Silverthorne/Anne Forgive me for dredging up a thread y'all thought was dead and gone but I was wondering. Buried in a dung heap, and we have a character named "Dung" who is rather heapish. That is, if you dressed him in drab clothes and stuck him in a corner, I'll bet folks would confuse him with a heap of rags. And don't we have a character incessantly described as toadlike? Can't you just picture Umbridge hatching a basilisk? From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 1 20:07:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:07:40 -0000 Subject: Who Hatched the Basilisk? was Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99873 wrote: > snip > Buried in a dung heap, and we have a character named "Dung" who is > rather heapish. That is, if you dressed him in drab clothes and > stuck him in a corner, I'll bet folks would confuse him with a heap > of rags. > > And don't we have a character incessantly described as toadlike? > Can't you just picture Umbridge hatching a basilisk? Potioncat: We also have Lockhart who was something of rooster who crowed with pride and ended up by laying an egg..... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 20:17:52 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:17:52 -0000 Subject: -=Spam=- RE: [HPforGrownups] Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040601143142.02b86b70@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Phil Vlasak wrote: > > > > >Sherry said : > > > >I sort of thought we were supposed to think they were an item by > > the brief mention of them in OOTP. ... Well, at least that Bill > > would like to be dating her. > PHIL Quotes - OOTP Chapter four: > > "Is Bill here?"Hharry asked. "I thought he was working in Egypt." > > "He applied for a desk job so he could come home and work for the > Order," said Fred. "He says he misses the tombs, but," he smirked, > "there are compensations. ..." > > "What d'you mean?" > > "Remember old Fleur Delacour?" said George. "She's got a job at > Gringotts to _eemprove _'er _Eeenglish--" > > "--and Bill's been giving her a lot of private lessons," sniggered > Fred. bboy_mn: I think it is more the attitude and demeanor of Fred and George that imply that there is more going on here than 'English lessons'. If we view the statement as cold emotionless text, then about all they say is that Bill is helping Fleur with English. But the implied 'nudge nudge wink wink' of Fred and George indicate that their lips are doing a lot more that speaking English. Just a thought. bboy_mn From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 1 16:55:53 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:55:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99875 | bboy_mn: | | However, taking over the Order of the Phoenix is a much more difficult | task. First, Dumbledore is probably carrying a lot of information | related to his 'Plan' in his head; that makes if difficult for the | next person to take over. | | | Neri comments: | Not as difficult as might seem at a first glance. That's what we have | the Pensieve for... Good answer! And, as far as candidates, I know Moody might be a bit--uh--seemingly paranoid, but he's got experience and probably a good deal of power, too, plus he seemed to be a good friend of Dd. So, combine Moody and Dd's pensieve, and we just might have a bit of order out of possible chaos? (Forgive the sort of pun.) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 00:22:57 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040601002257.57798.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99876 amanitamuscaria1 wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mariofett1187" I also believe that's why Sirius Black had to die - we've got 2 books left, with more deadly attacks coming. Dumbledore states that while Harry could still call Privet Drive home, he'd enjoy the protection Lily's blood gave him. Harry was about to call Sirius Black's house home. I reckon it's a setup job; not ESE!Dumbledore, but scheming, pragmatic DD. > On a related note, is Harry vulnerable to attack by Voldemort when he wanders around Little Whinging? Dumbledore said that he is protected only when he is in the Dursley's house. > AmanitaMuscaria again - I presume, again, that Harry is vulnerable. The Dementors (if they were Dementors), though not sent by Voldemort, as far as we know, didn't attack the house. But why else have a watch on Harry when he steps outside the house? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria This all leads me to wonder with the statement that this next summer will be his shortest on Privet Drive, if something will happen to the house to make him leave early. Also, there have been statements to the effect that Harry does not see Privet Drive as home anymore. Can this fact negate the magic when voices this oppinion? Moonmyyst (hoping everyone had a great memorial day!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abbid at carterassoc.com Tue Jun 1 10:38:56 2004 From: abbid at carterassoc.com (amdorn) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:38:56 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99877 I was wondering. Most of the students have pets while they attend Hogwarts. During the history of the school I am sure at least a few pets have died while school was in session. Couldn't the graveyard be a pet cemetery? I would hate to see Hedwig, Crookshanks, Pig, or Trevor die but they could and where would they be buried? I could also see any orphans requesting to be buried at Hogwarts. If Hogwarts was your first true home, why wouldn't you want to rest in peace there? I can see Sirius needing to be "buried" or memorialized at Hogwarts because everywhere else he is an outlaw. Dumbledore has control over what is at Hogwarts so he would be able to allow some memorial for Sirius. "amdom" From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 1 17:01:33 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:01:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the word mundungus In-Reply-To: <20040601102104.86027.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99878 | From: udder_pen_dragon [mailto:udderpd at yahoo.co.uk] | Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 6:21 AM | | psychobirdgirl wrote: | psychobirdgirl said: | | | Don't know if this has been mentioned, probably has, search brought | nothing on it, but I just wanted to mention that I was reading a | list of fun word definitions and mundungus was listed as meaning | stinky tobacco, reminding me of the scene at number 12, right before | dinner, where Mundungus lights up a stinky cigar. | | | | Now UdderPD | | I think that I should remind you that JKR told us this, although | I believe she said 'a stinky kind of tobaco'. Hence his (MF) name. Sorry, but the puns are sorta creeping in here...I look at his name; I think about the description of the awful smell of his cigar, etc.; I see the word "dung" in his name, and it all just connects. And, I know he's of use to the Order, but he seems like he might be more of a liability sometimes. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who fears that one of his--um--deals is going to make a problem for the Order. Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 1 19:47:46 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:47:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99879 | From: Susan [mailto:teilani2002 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 14:54 PM | | Schlobin at a... wrote: | > | > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? If | yes, why | > couldn't he see thestrals sooner? | > | > Can someone help? | > | > Susan | > | > | Another Susan here (teilani): | Uh, I believe it was because he couldn't really remember her death, | whereas he definitely saw Sirius go through the veil, and he was told | be Remus et al that Sirius was really gone. Also, I got the | impression that Luna actually witnessed her mom's accident, so that's | why she could see them. Right, but it was really the death of Cedric that opened Harry to seeing the thestrals. In GOF, Cedric is killed by LV; in OOTP, Harry sees the thestrals when he gets to Hogwarts. So, he's already seen them before Sirius goes through the veil. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 1 18:14:02 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:14:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: <1dc.22fe1ed4.2dee1543@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99880 | From: Schlobin at aol.com [mailto:Schlobin at aol.com] | Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 13:22 PM | | My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? | If yes, why | couldn't he see thestrals sooner? | | Can someone help? Out of the mouths of babes...And a very interesting question indeed! I'm going to speculate that either (1) Harry didn't really see the death of his mother because he was blinded by the AK curse or (2) he was too young to recognize what really happened. Could it be that only if one sees death and recognizes it for what it really is does one see thestrals...Not sure, but would really love to see the speculations and thoughts on this. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who thinks you've got one smart son, Susan!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From cquinn at mn.rr.com Tue Jun 1 19:50:01 2004 From: cquinn at mn.rr.com (twobeaglegirl) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:50:01 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his mother dying? If > > yes, why couldn't he see thestrals sooner? > > > > > Another Susan here (teilani): > Uh, I believe it was because he couldn't really remember her death, > whereas he definitely saw Sirius go through the veil, and he was told > be Remus et al that Sirius was really gone. 2beagles: Susan (#2), I agree with you about the first part (not remembering his mother's death). Or perhaps he was lying in a crib and not able to see what was happening. However, he was able to see the thestrals BEFORE Sirius died, since the beginning of OoP. So his ability to see them must have been related to the death of Cedric Diggory. But this is where I get confused since he didn't actually SEE Cedric murdered. He just heard it and assumed that it was him (which turned out to be correct). 2beagles From bamf505 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 19:53:31 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040601195331.37610.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99882 --- Susan wrote: > Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his > mother dying? Another opinion and question: My understanding (not having the text in front of me) was that Harry was in his cradle. There's no guarentee that Baby Harry saw anything. My question is this: shouldn't Harry have seen the Thestrals at the end of Book 4? After all, don't the students take the carriages back to Hogsmeade/Hogwarts express? Bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From lindawr2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 20:30:28 2004 From: lindawr2000 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:30:28 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99883 Hi, I am a newcomer & look forward to exchanging thoughts with you. I read back in messages & found it difficult to just jump in on the ongoing topics, so I will pose a question of my own. Much speculation has occurred about Snape's eventual role in the outcome of it all. I have read all the books & as I suspected, Severus has quite a history both personally & at Hogwart's. The pensieve that revealed his background to Harry, & Harry's to him, made a compelling scene for me - I felt that he could no longer contain as much animosity toward Harry, while Harry could no longer see the Professor as evil. I am feeling that Snape is a very important piece of the puzzle, one that will eventually help lead Harry to victory over Voldemort. Thoughts & information Please! Linda From lindawr2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 20:40:49 2004 From: lindawr2000 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:40:49 -0000 Subject: Would JKR lie to protect her story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > I was reviewing interviews with JKR earlier today, and wondered, if > someone asked her a question ~ that gave her no choice ~ would she > lie to keep the story from being revealed? Hi. I am new to the group. I believe that JKR would indeed fib to protect her story, and I am glad that she wants the suspense to continue until the end. While I LOVE speculating on the outcome & characters' fates, I feel that I would want the shear joy of waiting to get the next one in my hands. I don't think I would be nearly as excited if it were "spoiled." Linda From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 1 20:57:40 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:57:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? Message-ID: <20040601205740.52652.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > Hi! > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! Hi, here's Hans. I think the message you're referring to is 85249. (Nov. 17, 2003). However my theory on the significance of Harry Potter is not based on mythology or heroic traditions. It's based on my theory of the cause and purpose of life in this three-dimensional world of suffering. My point is that in order for the eternal, immortal Self to be born and come to full consciousness in the earthly human being, the latter has to die. However this is not a bodily death but the willing and joyful self-sacrifice of an imperfect, temporary consciousness in favour of a divine, eternal consciousness. Harry symbolizes the person engaged in this process. I quote here post 85249. >>>>>>>Harry will die. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind. However his death will not be a sad, final death with lots of heartbreak and bereavement. His death will lead to a resurrection in an indestructible, immortal body of mind-boggling majesty and splendour. His death will give hope to millions that there's more to life than birth, food, sex, and death. It will give hope that life has a wonderful and glorious purpose, namely liberation from this vale of suffering and return as the prodigal son to the Father's House. How JK Rowling will put all this into words is impossible to say. Life in the Kingdom of Love is impossible to describe. It's multidimensional. We have nothing in our universe to compare it with. It's like trying to explain to two dimensional people in a film what the third dimension is like. They know only about height and width. Depth is a concept they could never understand. I think she will describe Harry's reunion with the Father in abstract terms of hope and love and light. Some of you may wonder how I can be so sure about all this. It's quite simple. All my life I have sought for the Path of Liberation. When you desire something deeply all your attention is focused on it and so you begin to see the patterns. The patterns of liberation can be seen in all the great Holy Scriptures, in fairy tales, in myths, and in much great literature, for example Shakespeare and Dante. And, as I have repeatedly said, in the Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz. What I have learnt from the patterns is that the seeker for liberation dies as to his earthly, three dimensional self, to resurge as the butterfly does from the cocoon in a new life form with infinitely greater beauty and freedom of movement. Harry will pass through the archway. This is called the Gate of Saturn in the alchemical traditions. But having passed through, he will become a Bodhisattva. That is a Master of Compassion, a being so filled with love and compassion for his fellow human beings that he regards life with the Father as of secondary importance, and so returns to work for the liberation of others. I have the supreme confidence in JK Rowling that she will be able to write Harry's end in such a way, that although there will not be a dry eye left on earth, humanity will be left with Hope and Love of such magnitude that it will change the world. <<<<<<<<< Warm regards to all, Hans in Holland --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robersondd at comcast.net Tue Jun 1 23:17:22 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:17:22 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99886 > > AmanitaMuscaria : > Well, Vernon certainly had no thought for Harry's safety after the > Dementor episode. And I had the impression Petunia wasn't so much > worried about Harry being killed, as responding to some sort of > compulsion (no, not the neighbours talking - that was just an excuse > to shut Vernon up). She wouldn't look at Harry while she told Vernon > he had to stay, and it didn't seem to me, anyways, from that scene, > that her concern was for Harry. I wonder if there was something about > Vernon or Dudley, that Dumbledore pledged to do, that was the trade- > off? > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria Debbie R. Here: So - what are the possible implications here? Maybe Dumbledore could guarantee that her offspring, even if magical- born would never manifest wizarding-ability and thus live his life as a muggle? That would be a powerful persuasion for Petunia, especially given Vernon's attitudes. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 23:20:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:20:10 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: <20040601002257.57798.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99887 moonmyyst13 at y wrote (actually I'm not sure who posted this): Harry was about to call Sirius Black's house home. I reckon it's a setup job; not ESE!Dumbledore, but scheming, pragmatic DD. vmonte responds: When people know consciously (or instinctively) that they are dying, they usually put their affairs in order, and often "clean house!" Now that Sirius's house is clean I think that Harry is going to move in. I think he is going to find out something important at that house. What exactly was hidden up in the attic? He at least has to read the wizarding genealogy book that Sirius used to smash the spider like metallic creature that was crawling up Harry's arm (during the house decontamination scene). I just hope they get rid of that horrid painting and the elf heads. vmonte From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 23:24:22 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:24:22 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99888 Snips of bboy_mn's post: > Now we come to your son's question regarding Lily's death. Harry was > about 18 months old and the event occured at midnight. My explanation > is based on two key points; 1.) he didn't see it, 2.) he didn't > understand it. > > Logically, he was in bed, and most logically, he was in a baby's bed > of some kind; crib, cradle, bassinet, etc.... While Harry was present > in the room when Lily was killed, given that he was contained in a > babies 'bed', is it likely that he was actually able to SEE anything? Meri: Actually, I think our ideas of Harry being in his crib during the GH attack are movie contamination. IIRC, in Harry's dementor memories of the attack, James pushes Lily away, tells her to take Harry and run, and then Harry hears his mother running (can't quote canon, books on loan). I always assumed that Lily was running from one room of the house to another, with Harry in her arms, when she was attacked. Though I agree that at the age of one Harry certainly could not process death like he could at fifteen or sixteen, there is a possibility that he could have seen his mother killed. Or maybe there was a blanket over his head. Meri From enigma_only at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 23:26:44 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:26:44 -0000 Subject: Ship Thought--Bill & Fleur? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Sherry said : > > I sort of thought we were supposed to think they were an item by the brief > mention of them in OOTP. I can't remember the exact quote now, but I > certainly got the idea they might be dating. Well, at least that Bill would > like to be dating her. > > > Lady Macbeth replied: > > Yes, by all estimations they're an item. They are indeed both working in > Gringotts main office, presumably so that Bill (and possibly Fleur?) can be > closer to Dumbledore and do work for the Order of the Phoenix. > > It was mentioned that Bill is "teaching Fleur English", but I can't find my > book offhand (I just recently moved, and it's still packed away). > > I like to be mean and be of the opinion that Molly really does believe > that's all that's happening between the two of them, but that's just me. > The canon doesn't say definitively one way or another. > > -Lady Macbeth > Bonny here: Here is the quote from OotP: "Is Bill here?' he asked. 'I thought he was working in Egypt?' 'He applied for a desk job so he could come home and work for the Order,' said Fred. 'He says he misses the tombs, but,' he smirked, 'there are compensations.' 'What d'you mean?' 'Remember old Fleur Delacour?' said George. 'She's got a job at Gringotts to eemprove 'er Eeenglish -' 'And Bill's been giving her a lot of private lessons,' sniggered Fred." That quote coupled with the part in GoF, when Harry gets to see the Weasleys as family and Fleur is mentioned to be checking Bill out suggests to me that they are at least "seeing one another" even if they are not technically an item. Bonny From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 23:32:26 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:32:26 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99890 Debbie R. Here: So - what are the possible implications here? Maybe Dumbledore could guarantee that her offspring, even if magical- born would never manifest wizarding-ability and thus live his life as a muggle? That would be a powerful persuasion for Petunia, especially given Vernon's attitudes. vmonte responds: I posted this same thought a while ago. What do you think will happen if DD dies? And or what if Petunia is the magical one? vmonte From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 2 01:17:14 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:17:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant References: Message-ID: <002b01c4483f$575f2810$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 99891 From: Melody To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant 2) Hermione finally revealed she was almost in Ravenclaw. This has been a fan question for a long time. Did JKR add that bit in there to answer our question, or was is a natural progression in the book? Or another way of asking, why have they not asked this before? Or are the houses integrating more now and these questions often come up? Melody ***** I think this was done mostly to clear up the question: is Harry special because he had a say into which House he got sorted, or do all students have a chance to make their choice? Now we see that Harry wasn't special in this case, this gives us a deeper understanding of how the Hat works and also gives more weight to DD's words about actions deciding what a person is. I also think this was included more for the benefit of the readers than the characters in the book. I'm sure Jo (wow I called her Jo...) was aware that Hermione's bookishness brought this question up almost immediately and didn't mind dispelling our doubts on this subject. HOWEVER! How often have all of us been led on by something we took for granted? Yes, Hermione said that the Hat offered her Ravenclaw, but she chose Gryffindor and her intelligence would support that. BUT we also know (from Hermione's boggart) that she is afraid of failure, and what if she sees not being put into the "smart" House as a failure? In other words, what if Hermione lied? Does that mean that Harry is still the special "choice" kid? Alina. From garybec at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 01:21:06 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 01:21:06 -0000 Subject: Professor Trelawney Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99892 Becki Wonders: Does Professor Trelawney have any magical powers? And if so, why would she not "Reparo" Neville's tea cup after he broke it? I don't remember her ever doing any spell work. Did I miss something? I don't think it is important to any storyline, but just one of those nagging questions. Becki From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 2 03:11:22 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 03:11:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" > wrote: > > > 3) Where was Dumbledore during the Quidditch match? Is he trying > to > > stay out of trouble and not give Umbridge cause to hate him more, > or > > is he using this "away" time to get things done with the OoP? > > Meri: Perhaps if DD was there, he feared that LV would attempt to > control Harry, which was basically why DD avoided Harry for the > whole year. Perhaps it is unusual for the Headmaster to attend games > so early in the season, and this would be evidence for a deeper > relationship between Harry and DD. imamommy: I think DD gives Umbridge and her Education Decrees a lot of space at his school. He could have overturned the punishment after the fact. I think DD is just letting Umbridge (and Fudge, for that matter) spin themselves out, kind of like letting a baby scream themselves to sleep. Face it, DD has the power and influence to do whatever the heck he wants in the WW. He's a patient man. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 03:41:14 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 03:41:14 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: <20040601205740.52652.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky wr= ote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" > wrote: > > Hi! > > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to > > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! SOF: (Apologies in advance for non-HP examples, but I think it's important in or= der to illustrate the points more clearly.) The death of the Hero is not necessarily literal. It is sometimes a metapho= r for a "descent into the underworld." For example, Orpheus of Greek Mythology desc= ends to the Underworld to retrieve his dead wife, Eurydice. Some more modern exampl= es would be Xena: Warrior Princess who both died and literally traveled to Had= es, land of the dead, several times. Likewise, Buffy the Vampire Slayer suffered two ph= ysical deaths only to be resuscitated/resurrected stronger than she had ever been = before. Sometimes, in the course of the Hero's Quest, the Hero must die or venture = beyond the land of the living in order to achieve/retrieve something that will aid= e in the ultimate triumph (Boon). The "death" is not so much an end as a step in the= life of the Hero's soul, a test. If the hero does not willingly make this sacrifice, th= ey will not achieve the Boon ? the gift to the world. If the Hero can't/won't make this= choice, they aren't worthy. They are not the One. Think of Neo re-entering the Matr= ix to save Morpheus. He was the one with the plan, the skill and the freedom of though= t to save both Morpheus and Trinity as well as fight Agents hand to hand. This result= ed in his death, which facilitated his rise as The One. Not only was Neo The One, he = was The One that would change the dynamic between the Machines and Humans forever. = "The descent into the Underworld is a pilgrimage which the true hero cannot avoid for only after the pilgrimage can the new complete self be born in the act of rebirth." ? David Adams Leeming, Mythology: The Voyage of the Hero Several scholars on the subject agree that Heroes frequently end their jour= neys with an Apotheosis or Ascension beyond the circle of life. Sometimes this means = they are made immortal (as with Hercules who became a full god). It could also mean = that they leave the known world and pass into legend (as with Frodo who sailed beyond= the Mortal world, where word of his death would never be known). In the case of= Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Apotheosis came in the form of sharing her unique station w= ith legions of females. By spreading the power of the Slayer to all possible ca= ndidates she made her "self" ever-present and created a particular legacy that would= outlast her own life. The nature of the death, resurrection and apotheosis are up to the storytel= ler, and as such are only limited by JK Rowling's imagination. It's within reason to co= nsider that Harry's ultimate fate may be to not only vanquish Lord Voldemort, but to al= so vanquish those powers within himself that he gained from Voldemort. Perhaps= Harry's function is to counter-balance Voldemort's own in order to remove that powe= r from the world altogether. He just might end up a happy, normal wizard in the en= d. One of the things that Harry is coming to terms with is the connection betw= een himself and Voldemort. Meeting young Tom Riddle was an interesting twist. A= t some point Harry will have to recognize the human in Voldemort and so the fact t= hat he was not always a monster. Harry will need to recognize this progression of = the human monster in order to avoid falling into the same trap. (How Vader and Skywal= ker was that? ;)) Here's a link to a paper I did a few years back on the Hero's Journey. It i= s loose enough to apply to any story you need to. And there's a bibliography at the= end. http://www.bibliora.com/P5_0302/html/confluence.html From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 04:08:51 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:08:51 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: <20040601195331.37610.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > --- Susan wrote: > > Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > My son Jesse asked me --- didn't Harry witness his > > mother dying? > > > Another opinion and question: > > My understanding (not having the text in front of me) > was that Harry was in his cradle. There's no > guarentee that Baby Harry saw anything. > > My question is this: shouldn't Harry have seen the > Thestrals at the end of Book 4? After all, don't the > students take the carriages back to Hogsmeade/Hogwarts > express? > > Bamf In an interview after GoF OoP came out, JKR answered this question during the webcast: http://www.msn.co.uk/liveevents/harrypotter/transcript/Default.asp? Ath=f Internet question from Jessica Wells, originally from Australia now living in London. Email: "Harry saw his parents die so why hasn't he been able to see the Thestrals before?" JK Rowling: I knew I was going to get that one that is an excellent question. And here is the truth. At the end of Goblet of Fire we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Howarts. I knew that Thestrals were coming, and I can prove that because they're in the book I'd produced for Comic Relief (UK) "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them". These are lucky Black Winged Horses. However, if Harry had seen them and it had not been explained then it would cheat the reader. So, to explain that to myself, I decided you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a bit slowly these creatures became solid in front of you. So that's how I'm going to sneak past that one. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 04:20:56 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:20:56 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > [Lee] > And that's where I have my problem. If the priori is the most recent first, > the appearance of Cedric, Frank Brice and then Bertha are in the correct > sequence. But then, indeed, Lilly should come next, then James. > > Reason: LV would have had to kill James first, then Lilly who died > protecting Harry, then LV tried to AK Harry which did LV in. > > So, I just don't see how this sequence of Lilly appearing and then James can > be an error. Am I so dense?? > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) > (Who really should be sleeping, not reading!) It was an error - JKR's. You must have a later printing. The earlier editions had James appearing first. It has been corrected in later editions. Ravenclaw Bookworm From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 2 04:37:01 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:37:01 -0000 Subject: Nameson the Trophies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99897 Hi, I was browsing thorugh JKR's site and I was struck by the names she has on the trophy sheilds in the fan site section. There are two trophies for Tom Riddle, one for James Potter and one for James, one for Evans, one for Frank Longbottom, one for Sirius Black and one for Bellatrix Black and there is one that looks like it's for Weasley. James is supposed to have got a trophy for quidditch and Tom, for reporting on Hagrid. So what's the second trophy all about? And I'd sure be interested why Bellatrix got one too. I think she is one of the most important characters in the next two books. Bye Adi From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 02:08:45 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040602020845.32064.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99898 AmanitaMuscaria wrote in #99635: > setup job; not ESE!Dumbledore, but scheming, > pragmatic DD. Okay, I'm being really dense here... ESE!Dumbledore? What does the ESE stand for? Bamf, who is new and it shows! ;) ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 02:23:29 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forms of Transportation Message-ID: <20040602022329.96286.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99899 Susan's post about her son's question got me to thinking about an observation my own son had a while back. In each book, a new form of transportation is introduced. SS - hogwarts express, magical boats CoS - Floo Powder, flying cars PoA - Knight Bus, Hippogriff GoF - Apparating, Port Keys OoP - Thestrals, Portraits My question is, if we keep on this same vein, what will be the next forms of transportation that we will see? Moonmyyst (who really wants a flying carpet) From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Jun 2 05:27:20 2004 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 05:27:20 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: <20040602020845.32064.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > > AmanitaMuscaria wrote in #99635: > > setup job; not ESE!Dumbledore, but scheming, > > pragmatic DD. > > > Okay, I'm being really dense here... > > ESE!Dumbledore? What does the ESE stand for? > Ever So Evil. Just about everyone has been speculated about being evil at some point here, and it's common enough that it gets abbreviated. --Arcum, who is trying to recall if ESE!Luna has been done yet or not... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 06:50:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 06:50:13 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: <139.2f8702bb.2de5ba3f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99901 Amber wrote of the young Snape: > At school, he is unpopular, bullied, can't fly, and his closest reputed "friends" are Bellatrix Black and her future DE gang....what emotional support they must have given him.... Carol: Sorry to repond only to part of your post, but I don't have time to answer the whole thing. First, Bellatrix and possibly the Lestrange brothers had already graduated when the Pensieve incident occurred. We know from OoP that she was three years older than Sirius and therefore three years older than Snape. My sense is that the entire gang was older than Snape and that the was left alone in his fifth year, which is why the incident occurred in that year and not before. Also, I don't think we can conclude that a powerful wizard like Severus Snape couldn't fly as a boy, especially as late as his fifth year. Severus would have learned to fly in his first year at Hogwarts if not before that--even Neville presumably learns. And certainly Professor Snape has no trouble controlling his broom when he referees the Quidditch game in CoS. The memory we see in the occlumency chapter is of a young boy, perhaps eight or ten years old, trying to control an unruly broom. The broom's behavior is not in itself an indication of the rider's skill: We know that a good broom doesn't try to throw off its rider. Even the old school brooms respond to a firm, fearless command, and Severus is no coward, whatever his faults. Most likely he's trying in the memory to ride a hexed or jinxed broom, bound and determined to control it despite the laughing girl. Wish I knew who she was and why she found his struggle so amusing. Carol From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 06:26:54 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 06:26:54 -0000 Subject: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - prophecy implications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99902 >Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > Another tidbit from this link: > "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, > > Neri now: > > If the Celtic year starts on November 1st, then the end of the > seventh month would be the end of May, not of July. This might have > implications on the interpretation of the prophecy. Do we know > anybody in HP whom his birthday is by the end of May? Oh my, why does this remind me back to the threads wondering if Dudley was the referenced one and that was part of the deal Petunia is holding secret, as perhaps in Mark Twain's _Tragedy of Puddin'head Wilson_ or so? I recall some theorizing on this board last summer. aj From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 06:37:49 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 06:37:49 -0000 Subject: odd Seer!Ron, R/H, DD!Ron combo in dream Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99903 While asleep last night, multiple thoughts culminated in my mind somehow, so that it was not so much a dream as thinking while asleep, but slightly bizarrely. The threads were, how before OOTP came out people had already discussed 'Is Ron a seer?' on this group and when in OOTP Ron described his funny premonition that caused his Quidditch- winning save, I immediately thought of the seer!ron thread... Another thread was, 'Well most seem to agree at least that Ron likes Hermione, but is he good enough to earn her respect?' and my wondering if he would let seerlike qualities help him more not just in Quidditch- but what a shock it would be to Hermione who so scorns Divination, and would she respect the phenomenon and admit it was happening if Ron does come into his own in that one skill? The comments people made wondering whether Ron's divining skills in the new movie were clues to the upcoming books tied into this (especially since Hermione had scoffed at them). Lastly, I even wondered whether the Dumbledore!Ron theory would also fit in because DD seems all- knowing and might have honed his seerlike skills past simply remembering the timeframe of events. When I awoke, this did not all seem necessarily likely, but I could see why all these threads fit together in the dream. The somewhat original slant that came out of it seemed to be the idea of Hermione starting to respect ideas such as Luna's or Ron's having the sight and so on, and reconciling it with her own character, and respecting Ron and Luna for it... aj p.s. I found alchemy to be strong support for R/H because Sulfur and Quicksilver were called 'the quarreling couple.' But that's another topic. From SongBird3411 at aol.com Wed Jun 2 09:01:06 2004 From: SongBird3411 at aol.com (SongBird3411 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:01:06 -0000 Subject: Names on the Trophies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99904 Adi: > I was browsing thorugh JKR's site and I was struck by the names she > has on the trophy sheilds in the fan site section. > There are two trophies for Tom Riddle, one for James Potter and one > for James, one for Evans, one for Frank Longbottom, one for Sirius > Black and one for Bellatrix Black and there is one that looks like > it's for Weasley. Not only am I interested in what kind of award Bellatrix would have, I am also interested in what award Lily received. Some kind of academic awards? Bellatrix certainly seems smart. The Weasley one is Percy's. Some kind person please refresh my memory; it has been a long time since I re-read these books. What kind of award did Percy receive? I too am loving this site. Incidentally, if any of you haven't been by in the last day or two, the Rumors section has been updated. Apparently, fan reaction to the site has reached JKR. ;) Mindy PS. I think this is my first post to the main list. I have lurked since OoTP came out and I very much enjoy it. I too would never have considered some of the theories that float here. The speculation on this list is highly entertaining and often thought provoking. Thanks everyone! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 2 11:31:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:31:40 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99905 snipping<<<< Carol wrote: > The memory we see in the occlumency chapter is of a young boy, perhaps > eight or ten years old, trying to control an unruly broom. The broom's > behavior is not in itself an indication of the rider's skill: We know > that a good broom doesn't try to throw off its rider. snip Most likely he's trying in the memory to > ride a hexed or jinxed broom, bound and determined to control it > despite the laughing girl. Wish I knew who she was and why she found > his struggle so amusing. Potioncat: Hi Carol, haven't seen you in a while! Not to be picky, but why do you think Severus was only 8--10 in this memory? But I do agree, the broom must have been hexed. I'd like to know who the girl is too. Although most people seem to take this as a bad memory and partial proof of a sad life, I've also seen it explained as a small part of a bigger memory, with much less unhappiness associated with it. Potioncat From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 12:49:10 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:49:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: <002b01c4483f$575f2810$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99906 (snip question re: Hermione in Ravenclaw) Alina wrote: (big snip) > HOWEVER! How often have all of us been led on by something we took for > granted? Yes, Hermione said that the Hat offered her Ravenclaw, but she > chose Gryffindor and her intelligence would support that. BUT we also know > (from Hermione's boggart) that she is afraid of failure, and what if she > sees not being put into the "smart" House as a failure? In other words, what > if Hermione lied? Does that mean that Harry is still the special "choice" > kid? > Now Ginger: Ohh, Alina, that was good! But it also got me thinking on a realted thought: Hermione's fear is failure. What if she chose Gryffindor because she feared she'd fail in comparison to the Ravenclaws? Better to be the big fish in the small pond, so to speak. Just a thought, Ginger (Hufflepuff and Proud of it!) From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 12:56:52 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:56:52 -0000 Subject: Nameson the Trophies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > I was browsing thorugh JKR's site and I was struck by the names she > has on the trophy sheilds in the fan site section. > There are two trophies for Tom Riddle, one for James Potter and one > for James, one for Evans, one for Frank Longbottom, one for Sirius > Black and one for Bellatrix Black and there is one that looks like > it's for Weasley. > James is supposed to have got a trophy for quidditch and Tom, for > reporting on Hagrid. So what's the second trophy all about? > And I'd sure be interested why Bellatrix got one too. I think she > is one of the most important characters in the next two books. > Bye > Adi Ginger: I realize the site isn't canon, but maybe if we are looking for canon clues it counts? Elves? Apologies if not... I noticed those too. Canon has Tom for the Special Services award. James may have gotten one as MVP for Quidditch (yes, that's totally speculation as we haven't heard of it yet). We know James, Lily, Percy and Tom were Head Boys/Girls. Frank sounds the type, so that's a possibility. Sirius and Bellatrix...now there's the puzzler. We know Sirius wasn't Head Boy, and we have no canon for him being a Quidditch star. Bellatrix as Head Girl would be scary. Maybe those will come to light in the next book. Maybe they're clues! Anyone else? Ginger, who thinks bboy's post in the Bill/Fleur thread was dead on, but didn't want to post a "me too" From hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 13:34:56 2004 From: hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com (hpfgu_list_elves) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 13:34:56 -0000 Subject: MESSAGE - Chicago Tribune interview request Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99908 Hi there! NOTE: discussion of the following that does not involve canon should as always take place only on OTC. An interview request from the Chicago Tribune has arrived here at Hexquarters and we are looking for all adult (18 or over) HPfGU members who are residents of Chicago. Please contact us at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus the extra space) ASAP for the chance to talk to the reporter before the very tight deadline (Wednesday, June 2nd). We will do our best to hook you up with the reporter before the window of opportunity closes. Please be sure to include your name as well as your telephone number and we'd appreciate knowing the Yahoo ID associated with your membership here. Because the article is going to be about Harry Potter's mass appeal, how he's a kid adults can relate to, the adult/universal themes that can be found in the books, etc., be advised that you probably should prepare brief answers to these: - Why does Harry Potter appeal so much to grown-ups? - Why do you, personally, like the series so much? - Your age, place of residence, profession (also of interest: married or unmarried, has kids or not) On the off chance that the reporter asks for concise and quotable sound bites from non-Chicago residents too, we'd like to ask for everyone's input. If you have ever written (or have the time now to write) answers to the above questions, please email them to us at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus the extra space) as soon as you can. If any of you out there are willing and able, we hope you will participate...and really, this is surely one of our favorite topics here at HPfGU. This message might seem slightly unusual, but it seems to be a great opportunity to publicise our group and we are sure that many of our members will welcome the chance to be involved. Thank you very much! We now return you to the regularly scheduled programming of merrily meandering discussion threads. :) Penapart Elf for the List Admin Team REMINDER: discussion of the above that does not involve canon should as always take place only on OTC (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). From garybec at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 11:13:22 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:13:22 -0000 Subject: Names on the Trophies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99909 SongBird: I was browsing thorugh JKR's site and I was struck by the names > she > > has on the trophy sheilds in the fan site section. > > There are two trophies for Tom Riddle, one for James Potter and > one > > for James, one for Evans, one for Frank Longbottom, one for Sirius > > Black and one for Bellatrix Black and there is one that looks like > > it's for Weasley. Becki's Thoughts; What if they are not trophy names but in fact, representing the deaths in the books. 2 for Tom, already "died" once, the most, already dead, and a Weasly and maybe a cured Frank Longbottom to die in the end? Curious; Becki From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 14:29:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:29:01 -0000 Subject: Forms of Transportation In-Reply-To: <20040602022329.96286.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99910 moonmyyst13 at y wrote: Susan's post about her son's question got me to thinking about an observation my own son had a while back. In each book, a new form of transportation is introduced. SS - hogwarts express, magical boats CoS - Floo Powder, flying cars PoA - Knight Bus, Hippogriff GoF - Apparating, Port Keys OoP - Thestrals, Portraits My question is, if we keep on this same vein, what will be the next forms of transportation that we will see? Moonmyyst (who really wants a flying carpet) vmonte responds: You forgot time-turners, and broom sticks. By-the-way, I'm betting that Norbert will somehow come back. (He will of course remember Hagrid, taking him and the kids for a ride.) vivian From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 14:39:44 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:39:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Viktor, Was: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: <1468432358.20040529224814@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99911 Susanne: Also, I don't believe Hermione was at all in love with Krum, and see this relationship as very one-sided, too. Yes, Hermione accepted his invitation to the Yule Ball, but otherwise it was mainly Krum pushing for more, with Hermione trying to keep things to friendship. Bookworm: I don't remember Viktor Krum "pushing for more". It's been awhile since I read GoF, but I saw him as someone a little lost in the social environment and he found a kindred spirit. IMO, Hermione went to the Ball with him because he asked her (and others didn't ). Remember he approached her in the Library ? not the expected place for him to hang out so why was he there in the first place? And I suspect he was attracted to Hermione *because* she wasn't following him around like a groupie. Despite my previous SHIPping, I think Hermione and Viktor are only friends, but Hermione doesn't make that clear to Ron on purpose. Ravenclaw Bookworm (Who suspects there is much more to Viktor than being a jock and is hoping we see him again very soon.) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 14:43:20 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:43:20 -0000 Subject: Snape... for Dumbledore - Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > However, taking over the Order of the Phoenix is a much more difficult > task. First, Dumbledore is probably carrying a lot of information > related to his 'Plan' in his head; that makes if difficult for the > next person to take over. > > Neri comments: > Not as difficult as might seem at a first glance. That's what we have > the Pensieve for... bboy_mn: The problem with a Pensieve is that it is only as good as the memories stored in it. It's doubtful that Dumbledore would have stored his most current, most on his mind, most relavant memories in the pensieve, and unlikely that he stored his Grand Plan in it. For the most part, the Pensieve is for siphoning off 'overload' and storing memories that you would like to peruse at your leasure. So doubtful thta the most important and relative to the moment memories would be in there. At least, that's my opinion. bboy_mn From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Wed Jun 2 14:57:49 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:57:49 -0400 Subject: Forms of Transportation In-Reply-To: References: <20040602022329.96286.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040602105252.03234c30@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99913 > >moonmyyst13 at y wrote: >Susan's post about her son's question got me to thinking about an >observation my own son had a while back. In each book, a new form of >transportation is introduced. > >SS - hogwarts express, magical boats >CoS - Floo Powder, flying cars >PoA - Knight Bus, Hippogriff >GoF - Apparating, Port Keys >OoP - Thestrals, Portraits > >My question is, if we keep on this same vein, what will be the next >forms of transportation that we will see? > >Moonmyyst (who really wants a flying carpet) > > >vmonte responds: > >You forgot time-turners, and broom sticks. >By-the-way, I'm betting that Norbert will somehow come back. (He will >of course remember Hagrid, taking him and the kids for a ride.) > >vivian Phill adds, SS - flying motorcycle, centaur CoS - Phoenix tail GoF - gigantic, winged horse-drawn carriage, Durmstrang's ship OoP - Abraxan horses Plus there is talk about flying carpets in GoF, but they are banned. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madettebeau at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 15:26:51 2004 From: madettebeau at gmail.com (maa-dee) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:26:51 -0000 Subject: Names on the Trophies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99914 > > Becki's Thoughts; > > What if they are not trophy names but in fact, representing the > deaths in the books. 2 for Tom, already "died" once, the most, > already dead, and a Weasly and maybe a cured Frank Longbottom to die > in the end? > > Curious; > Becki Maddy writes: Eek! Now that's a thought. Since the Weasley award in there belongs to Percy (you can see the name when the paper is moved), perhaps that means that Percy will die, hopefully after having returned to/made up with his family? I'm actually hoping that you are not correct in this suggestion, (although it is interesting!) because, if I am remembering correctly, didn't Harry and Ron recieve awards in CoS? Do you think they're both doomed as well? The award to the left of Lily Evans' begins with "Ha..." Perhaps this is Harry's. It would be interesting if the trophy room does have some special significance, but it's more likely just what it seems to be. But I'm sure we're all interested in finding out how and why everyone recieved their awards... =) Maddy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 15:36:40 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:36:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Bucking Broomstick Memory (Re: What is with the "Prank" ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99915 > Carol wrote: > > The memory we see in the occlumency chapter is of a young boy, > perhaps > > eight or ten years old, trying to control an unruly broom. The > broom's > > behavior is not in itself an indication of the rider's skill: We > know > > that a good broom doesn't try to throw off its rider. > snip > Most likely he's trying in the memory to > > ride a hexed or jinxed broom, bound and determined to control it > > despite the laughing girl. Wish I knew who she was and why she > found > > his struggle so amusing. > Potioncat: > Hi Carol, haven't seen you in a while! > Not to be picky, but why do you think Severus was only 8--10 in this > memory? > > But I do agree, the broom must have been hexed. I'd like > to know who the girl is too. Although most people seem to take this > as a bad memory and partial proof of a sad life, I've also seen it > explained as a small part of a bigger memory, with much less > unhappiness associated with it. Jen: I wonder if this particular Snape memory is important because of the girl herself, perhaps someone Snape was close to--a friend or sister? The memory would be painful if she died in the First War, or he somehow lost touch with her. It doesn't tell us the boy was upset or angry about the girl laughing; perhaps he was even showing off for her. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 15:38:22 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:38:22 -0000 Subject: Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > Meri: > Actually, I think our ideas of Harry being in his crib during the GH > attack are movie contamination. IIRC, in Harry's dementor memories > of the attack, James pushes Lily away, tells her to take Harry and > run, and then Harry hears his mother running (can't quote canon, > books on loan). I always assumed that Lily was running from one room > of the house to another, with Harry in her arms, ...edited... > > Meri bboy_mn: Remember, this all occurred at roughly midnight. My take is that James and Lily we in the living room/lounge/parlor/drawing room/sitting room when Voldemort arrived. James ran forward to fight Voldemort, and Lily ran to the bedroom to get Harry who as sleeping in his baby's bed (of some type). Lily's running, was her running TO Harry, not with Harry. At least, that's how I always saw it. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 2 15:23:57 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:23:57 +0100 Subject: Radio TBAY - Alternative Medicine Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99917 "...and that what the new singing sensation Eldritch Presley with 'The Ghoul of My Best Friend'. Back here in the studio we have a very special guest, Augustus Pye, an enthusiastic supporter of Alternative Medicine. Tell us, Gussy - does it work?" "Well, Kneasy, as you know my friends and I swear by it; magical so-called healing cannot be considered natural and spells are flying in the face of rational thought so far as we're concerned. We want healing to be as close to our body rhythms as possible and so we look to remedies from more primitive societies rather than relying on artificial methods like casting spells. We believe that to be really effective medicine should be 'hands on', which is a more truly holistic method, giving comfort and care to both mind and body." "Hm. You certainly seem to be comforting your body, Gus. Half your face is covered with white strips - what's all that for?" "It's a type of metamorphosis - you know - changing your appearance. It's possible to do it as many times as you like, or at least until you run out of skin. When these dressings come off I'll look just like Gilderoy Lockhart." "I.....see...I think. Why do you want to look like him?" "He's always been my hero. And he said that he'd personally certified all the procedures, in fact he rescued many of them from obscurity. He's cured thousands of wizards with them! He wrote a book about it - "Ready Remedies - Healthy Healing the Lockhart Way!" And he only charges a nominal fee for the tablets he makes!" "Tablets? What're they?" "They're a sort of dehydrated compressed potion - end up about the size of the tip of a wand." "So you take one and everything's fine, is that the idea?" "They're wonderful! Usually. Just a few minor snags to sort out." "Snags?" "Well, some patients are so used to taking potions by the goblet-full.... and tablets take a bit longer to work.... so when a cure doesn't happen immediately....they take some more. Had one patient with constipation... you don't want to hear about that. But the tablets worked! It's all a matter of education, that and bringing the mind and body into balance." "Balance? So why did you fall over coming into the studio?" "Ha, ha! Nothing to do with my current course of treatment, I assure you. Though I have been taking some tablets meant to help my Quidditch game, they're for Seekers - called Beater Blockers." "Really? Pity they haven't invented a Quaffle Blocker. I'd buy a few for our Keeper, he's bloody useless. Speaking of blood - what's wrong with good old-fashioned dragon's blood anyway?" "Intensive dragon farms. Each creature penned up in a space no more than 2 miles across, it's barbaric. Their wings stunt, their flames flicker and their scales drop off. They get stressed, not to say extremely pissed off, so the quality of the product is declining rapidly. Why, I've seen dragon's blood that was so weak it couldn't dissolve a Muggle! The Healers at St Mungo's always try to dismiss our Arts, but they're just trying to hide the fact that their own potions are not to be trusted; the ingredients aren't always freshly gathered and sometimes their cauldrons are left on 'simmer' for days on end. There's no knowing where some of their stuff comes from, could be any old rubbish in there. But do they listen? No. They have a vested interest in the status quo. Production-line medicine - treat the disease not the person. Same when you break a bone." "You take tablets for that?" "No, not tablets - we insist on a cast. I can see that you're looking lost, so I'll explain. A cast is a rigid support around the break...." "I've seen them! So that's what they are! I thought the spell had gone wrong and the bone was growing on the outside! Well, I never! And all that writing on them is spells to help healing, yes?" "Er, no. Friends scribble on them for fun." "Fun. I see. Strange people about. Time for some more music.... we'll be right back after Mimosa Gerkhin and that touching ballad ' Still waiting for your Owl'." [pause] "Back with Augustus Pye and Alternative Medicine....Tell me Gussy, what do you do when something really serious happens? Surely then...." "Oh no. We have an operation." "Ah, singing! So you all chant...." "You're confusing it with opera. This is a bit different to that, Kneasy. We get cut open." "Cut open? Merlin's Beard! What for? Surely not to let the evil spirits out, ha, ha,ha!" "It's all part of that 'hands on' I told you about. Somebody, a trained person, naturally - cuts you open and then fixes what's gone wrong and then ties you back together again." "Urrk! You mean they put their hands....? No, no, be serious. That's disgusting! Besides, you'd bleed all over the floor!" "Of course not! They suck it all up." "Vampires!" "No, no, they use a machine. Then the blood is replaced - they take it from somebody else; about a jug-full" "A jug-full? And they pour it into the hole in your whatever and tie you back together, do they? And this works? I find that hard to believe. Has anyone you know actually had this done to them? And didn't slosh around like a half-filled bladder? Sounds like a joke to me." "It is not a joke! It is a tried and tested healing method! I've tried it on patients myself. Who knows what long-term damage might result from too many spells? We need more testing, more evaluation before magic can be considered safe. But do they listen? We have evidence about the terrible things that happen when spells go wrong. Piles of case parchments hidden away, the Hospital Pensieve hacked - the patients have no idea, but then half of them are Obliviated! to cover up the mistakes." "Uh huh. This wouldn't have any bearing on the reason why you were sacked, would it?" "Sacked? I wasn't sacked! I resigned. Some red-haired harpy made slanderous accusations to the Chief Healer about the treatment her husband was getting. Some people have no gratitude. Naturally I packed my leeches and left. I'll be opening my own clinic soon. You must pop round for a check-up." "No thanks. Call me old-fashioned, but you know where you are with the diced frog and moon-kissed ragwort tea my granny makes. Right; that brings us to the close - hope you enjoyed listening and this is Kneasy playing us out with Oblivia Newton-John and "I forgot to remember." From textualsphinx2003 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 2 15:49:00 2004 From: textualsphinx2003 at yahoo.co.uk (textualsphinx2003) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:49:00 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99918 JKR's website has a 'fansite of the month' slot where she praises various HP fansites she likes. The funny thing is, both the ones she'd admired so far are moderated and/or created by people how identify as Slytherins. She confesses herself disturbed - indeed 'shocked' by this. She likes these site-moderators - even calls them 'my kind of people' for their thoroughness - but claims not to understand why they are interested in Slytherin House. This contradiction is presumably the result of there being two Slytherin Houses - the canon one as seen by Harry (and JKR?)and the fanon one as seen by fanfiction writers. What we see of the first is a nasty hotbed of bigotry whose original sin stems from its ruthless, purebloodist founder. What we get from the second varies a great deal from a feminist deconstruction of the novels' 'muscular Christianity' to the troubled Wizarding answer to Eton and Harrow. At any rate, the fanon Slytherin House tends to be a less black-and- white entity than the books' - so far. I wonder of JKR will come to the conclusion I do - that if the people she admires and likes are Slytherin, maybe there's something good about Slytherin. Or will she dismiss it as mere 'misreading'of her intentions on the fans' part? From madettebeau at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 15:58:27 2004 From: madettebeau at gmail.com (maa-dee) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:58:27 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99919 Linda wrote: > The pensieve that > revealed his background to Harry, & Harry's to him, made a > compelling > scene for me - I felt that he could no longer contain as much > animosity toward Harry, while Harry could no longer see the > Professor > as evil. One would think so, wouldn't one? But Snape reacted very angrily towards having his privacy invaded like that. At times, Snape seems to think that Harry is a reincarnation of James. Snape assumes that Harry is arogant, hates him and feels above everyone else. When Snape discovered Harry inside the pensieve, he probably felt horribly violated and figured Harry would have found the scene funny, and a great way to make fun of Snape. Snape practically threw Harry out of his office. At any point Snape could have seen that Harry does not like the fame and attention that surrounds him. I think Harry only enjoys fame when it's for something he's earned and he's proud of, Quidditch being an example. There have been many times in the previous books when Harry has been picked on and ridiculed. Snape would have seen even more of these situations when seeing Harry's memories during Occlumency lessons. It appears as though Snape has a lot of evidence in front of him that points to the fact that Harry isn't an arrogant bully, like James was. But he seems pretty happy to ignore those facts. It might be that he knows Harry isn't like that, but chooses to persecute him for being big-headed (even when he isn't) because he knows it will annoy Harry. Harry, on the other hand, after having seen the memory in the pensieve, does not find it funny. He's horrified that his Father and Sirius were such bullies, that Lupin didn't do anything to stop them, and that his Mother seemingly hated James. And not only does he feel very sorry for Snape, he knows what it's like to be the one being bullied (whether by Malfoy, Snape or Dudley). However, Snape's continued hatred and mistreatment of Harry eventually puts an end to Harry's sympathy. At the end of OotP he doesn't feel sorry for him, and has somehow managed to shift the blame he felt for Sirius's death onto Snape, increasing his hatred for him. Like you, I really wanted Snape and Harry to start getting along. But Snape seems to make a habbit of annoying and infuriating Harry. And Harry lets it bug him. I think it's probably the easiest way for Harry to vent any angry feelings he's having: blame it on the most hatable man, Snape. Linda wrote: > I am feeling that Snape is a very important piece of the > puzzle, one that will eventually help lead Harry to victory over > Voldemort. Maddy writes: At some point, I think they have to reconcile somewhat. I also think that Snape has some vital part to play...IMO, I think Harry needs to grow up a bit and learn not to take Snape's digs to heart. (although, Who can blame the kid for taking it personally?) And if Snape is being genuine, he needs to stop being such a jerk. If he doens't genuinely have it in for Harry, then JKR needs to reveal whatever his problem is. =) Maddy (who's feeling very long-winded) From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 17:24:41 2004 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (John Kusalavage) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MESSAGE - Chicago Tribune interview request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040602172441.3913.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99920 Hi, If it ever gets to non-residents of Chicago, I was extensively interviewed and reported on by the Orlando Sentinel and the St. Petersberg Times during Nimbus 2003. We covered exactly the questions that the Chicago papers will pose. You can retrieve the stories via Google using my RL name, John Kusalavage. Yours in HP fellowship, Haggridd --- hpfgu_list_elves wrote: > Hi there! > > NOTE: discussion of the following that > does not involve canon should as always take > place only on OTC. > > An interview request from the Chicago Tribune > has arrived here at Hexquarters and we are > looking for all adult (18 or over) HPfGU > members who are residents of Chicago. Please > contact us at > > HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com > (minus the extra space) > > ASAP for the chance to talk to the reporter > before the very tight deadline (Wednesday, > June 2nd). We will do our best to hook you > up with the reporter before the window of > opportunity closes. Please be sure to > include your name as well as your telephone > number and we'd appreciate knowing the Yahoo > ID associated with your membership here. > > Because the article is going to be about > Harry Potter's mass appeal, how he's a kid > adults can relate to, the adult/universal > themes that can be found in the books, etc., > be advised that you probably should prepare > brief answers to these: > > - Why does Harry Potter appeal so much to > grown-ups? > > - Why do you, personally, like the series > so much? > > - Your age, place of residence, profession > (also of interest: married or unmarried, > has kids or not) > > On the off chance that the reporter asks > for concise and quotable sound bites from > non-Chicago residents too, we'd like to > ask for everyone's input. If you have ever > written (or have the time now to write) > answers to the above questions, please > email them to us at > > HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com > (minus the extra space) > > as soon as you can. If any of you out > there are willing and able, we hope you > will participate...and really, this is surely > one of our favorite topics here at HPfGU. > > This message might seem slightly unusual, but > it seems to be a great opportunity to publicise > our group and we are sure that many of our > members will welcome the chance to be involved. > > Thank you very much! We now return you to > the regularly scheduled programming of > merrily meandering discussion threads. > > :) Penapart Elf > for the List Admin Team > > REMINDER: discussion of the above that does > not involve canon should as always take place > only on OTC > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). > > ===== "... Look, I didn't learn joined-up writing for nothing, you know!" -Gilderoy Lockhart, "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 2 17:59:07 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:59:07 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re thestrals from my 6-1/2 year old References: <1086119812.15523.17352.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c448cb$4cc730a0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99921 Susan (teilani) wrote: > why she could see them. Remember, all Harry could really remember > was the green light and something about a flying motorcycle. IIRC, > it wasn't until the dementors came alon that he started being able to > hear his mom and dad being attacked by LV, and even then, there's no > mention of him _seeing_ anything, like LV, if there were others in GH > with LV, whether or not it was truly his dad or if it was someone > else telling Lily to run, etc. I formed a mental picture of little Harry being in his crib, possibly hiding under the blanket, while the fight was going on, so while he'd have _heard_ what was said and done, he didn't _see_ it until Voldemort actually attacked him. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 2 18:16:16 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:16:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Bucking Broomstick Memory (Re: What is with the "Prank" ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > > > Potioncat: > > But I do agree, the broom must have been hexed. I'd like > > to know who the girl is too. Although most people seem to take > this > > as a bad memory and partial proof of a sad life, I've also seen it > > explained as a small part of a bigger memory, with much less > > unhappiness associated with it. > > > Jen: I wonder if this particular Snape memory is important because > of the girl herself, perhaps someone Snape was close to--a friend or > sister? The memory would be painful if she died in the First War, or > he somehow lost touch with her. It doesn't tell us the boy was upset > or angry about the girl laughing; perhaps he was even showing off > for her. I never thought of it that way, but memories are multi-layered things, and we can't be perfectly sure what part of this particular memory Snape would consider important or why. Perhaps it is the girl herself - maybe it's his only memory of her, or a particularly unpleasant memory of her, or even a fun memory (though Harry didn't seem to pick up any intimations of "fun" in any of the memories). To tell the truth, I took it almost as having some coded sexual overtones, and I did think that Snape was more likely 13 or so. It just has that feeling of male anxiety over inadequacy, especially with the girl laughing at him, and that IS the sort of thing a boy would worry about. It would be interesting to get a look at Snape's *dreams*, as well as his memories! Wanda From rarpsl at optonline.net Wed Jun 2 18:52:17 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:52:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99923 At 05:18 +0000 on 05/31/2004, hedwigstalons wrote about [HPforGrownups] A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology??: >Hi! >Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by >Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to >die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems >that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > >Thanks! > >HedwigsTalons One of the things that may require Harry to die in the end is the "Cosmic Balance" mythos. This means that the existence of a "Great Evil" triggers the creation/rise of an opposing "Great Good" to combat it. If/When Good wins, its continued existence tips the balance the other way triggering the creation/rise of a newer (and often more powerful) Evil to combat. In this mythos type situation, the usual outcomes are for both to die in the "Final Battle", the Good to die due to the Battle (ie: Of wounds), the Good to suicide/kamikaze in Battle to "Take Out" the Evil since that is the only way to "Win", or to vanish since "My Job Here is Done - Good-bye" (the old "Ride off into the Sunset" routine). IOW: The Good does not usually survive the "Final Battle" since it is the fate of Good to die (actually or metamorphically) to counter the Evil. Given the Prophecy, it looks like Harry is heading in this direction (his birth/existence is due to a need to fight LV and once Harry has defeating LV, he has no more need to live/exist). From rmatovic at ssk.com Wed Jun 2 18:55:39 2004 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:55:39 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: We know Petunia accepted Harry "grudgingly, furiously, > unwillingly, bitterly" so she seemed fully aware of the contract she > entered into and did it anyway. It makes you wonder, what did > she/they get in return? Perhaps what she got was *protection* from something she feared, rather than a reward for her action. The whole way the scene plays out makes it clear that DD convinced Petunia to accept Harry and that she then prevailed on Vernon. She knows the motivation, but Vernon doesn't. I'd go further and say that she was convinced to take Harry because of something that could be revealed that would wreck her life as she wants it and has created it if *Vernon* knew. I suspect that Petunia had more involvement with and knowledge of the magical world than she lets on and she at some point chose to reject that world -- and her relationship with Vernon is predicated on her being completely normal and different than her 'deviant' sister. What if she's not so different? Rebecca From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 2 19:06:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 19:06:06 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99925 Maddy wrote: > > At any point Snape could have seen that Harry does not like the fame > and attention that surrounds him. >snip> > It appears as though Snape has a lot of evidence in front of him that > points to the fact that Harry isn't an arrogant bully, like James was. > But he seems pretty happy to ignore those facts. Potioncat: Sorry, I've snipped a lot here, to get to one point. Very good post, BTW. I've been wondering if Snape really does have a lot of evidence about Harry? I can't defend this at the moment, but the next time I read any of these I'm going to take a look at just what Snape's point of view might reasonably be if we had only seen it from his eyes. My point is, he expects Harry to be an arrogant rule breaker. And he has seen Harry break rules! I've always thought he knew Malfoy was starting the fights, but I'm beginning to wonder if that is the case. Now, I'm not going to defend this view yet, because, as I say, I would need to reveiw certain portions of the book first. It has just crossed my mind lately that just as Harry has often been mistaken about events, Snape might have been as well. The first one that comes to my mind, IIRC, (and this doesn't even involve Snape) is when McGonagall thinks the Trio tricked Draco into thinking they had a dragon. We of course, know the truth, but she believes them to be guilty of taunting Malfoy. But because the original point of this thread had to do with the penseive and Occlumency, I have to say, one my favorite theories from this site, is that it may have been Snape who tipped the Order off about how badly the Dursleys treat Harry. Potioncat From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 2 18:35:31 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:35:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins References: Message-ID: <000f01c448d0$62e55290$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 99926 textualsphinx2003 wrote: > This contradiction is presumably the result of there being two > Slytherin Houses - the canon one as seen by Harry (and JKR?)and the > fanon one as seen by fanfiction writers. What we see of the first is > a nasty hotbed of bigotry whose original sin stems from its ruthless, > purebloodist founder. June writes: Hi, folks. I'm very, very new here, but I'd like to jump in for a second. If you remember, Dumbledore tells Harry about some character traits within himself that Salazar Slytherin himself prized. I don't think it's a good idea to tar all Slytherins with the same brush. Of course, it is always a little disconcerting to find you have possibly a good deal of things in common with folks that seem to be inherently evil. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! From madettebeau at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 20:01:00 2004 From: madettebeau at gmail.com (maa-dee) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:01:00 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99927 Potioncat wrote: > But because the original point of this thread had to do with the > penseive and Occlumency, I have to say, one my favorite theories > from this site, is that it may have been Snape who tipped the Order > off about how badly the Dursleys treat Harry. Maddy writes: Now _that's_ an interesting theory! That's one of the funny things about Snape. I think the good things that he does are behind the scenes...in other words not in front of Harry. Afterall, in PS/SS, why didn't Snape just go up to Harry and say "Listen, I think Quirrel's trying to kill you/is dangerous, I'm keeping an eye on him, but you'd better be careful."? It is only because Quirrel tells Harry that Snape saved his life that Harry knows. It seems Snape would never have admitted it to Harry's face. And if Snape did tip the Order off...there's yet another example. It's things like this that make me wonder if Snape really does hate Harry. Also his willingness to teach Harry Occlumency. Wait a second, I'm condradicting myself, here. I think Snape does truly hate Harry, but he will go out of his way to help Harry when it's needed or asked for. Maybe the fact that he does things to help Harry, whom he hates, makes him hate Harry even more? I don't know. I'm no phsychologist. The question is why does he go out of his way to help Harry? Is it because despite how much he hates Harry he simply doesn't want him dead? Or is there a much more interesting, yet-to-be-revealed reason behind it? It would be a surprisingly *sensative* thing for Snape to do IMHO (telling the Order about the Dursleys' mistreatment of Harry, that is), if he did do it. That is, recognizing the emotional abuse and neglect they treated Harry with, and then acting on it so that others would definitely change it for the better. At Hogwarts, Snape seems to enjoy mistreating and humiliating Harry, so why should he help out where the Dursleys are concerned? Perhaps this is because Snape had a similar childhood? The pensieve memory likely indicates at the very least a verbally abusive father. Upon seeing and recognizing it, maybe he informed Sirius who then asked Lupin to say something to the Dursleys next time at the train station. Digressing a little here...But does it bother anyone else that Sirius never really bothered to find out much about the Dursleys? I don't have OotP with me, so I can't quote the page number, but I believe Sirius says at one point "They must be bad if you prefer this place." referring to Grimmauld Place. Perhaps he was just content with the fact that Harry was "safe" there. But getting back to Snape... Potioncat wrote: > The first one that comes to my mind, IIRC, (and this doesn't even > involve Snape) is when McGonagall thinks the Trio tricked Draco into > thinking they had a dragon. We of course, know the truth, but she > believes them to be guilty of taunting Malfoy. Maddy writes: Yes, I think McGonagall believes Malfoy that the trio tricked him. Perhaps at that point, McGonagall expected Harry to follow in his father's footsteps and be a right little trouble-maker himself? But she eventually comes to know Harry as his own person, not just James's son. Potioncat wrote: > My point is, he expects Harry to be an arrogant rule breaker. And > he has seen Harry break rules! I've always thought he knew Malfoy > was starting the fights, but I'm beginning to wonder if that is the > case. Maddy writes: That could be it. Maybe because he expected Harry to be just like James, he's only noticed the similarities (ie Harry's rule breaking and occasionally getting away with it) and not any of the differences, such as Harry doesn't bully people, but stands up for those who are bullied. Still, I think we are meant to take Snape to be a very intelligent person. And I think that he does know that Harry isn't a carbon copy of James. He does detect the sense of pride that Harry has, and sees that he doesn't like/deal well with his fame, and because he hates Harry, he punishes him for it because I think that, more than anything else would, annoys and frustrates Harry. =) Maddy (yes, I'm definitely in a long-winded mood today. But I like this topic.) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 20:41:01 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:41:01 -0000 Subject: Who Hatched the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99928 > > Potioncat: > > > > I wonder if there is any chance that the legend was just that? > > Perhaps there was a chamber, but no monster. Tom Riddle found it and > > hatched a basilisk in the chamber? There are chickens on the > > grounds and lots of toads or is it frogs that's needed? > > bboy_mn: > > While we don't have the exact details of how to create and grow a > Basilisk in JKR's world, I think it's safe to say that it didn't grow > to a length of 40 to 60 feet in just a few years. This seems to be an > ancient long-lived creature, so my vote is for Slytherin to have > indeed hatched it. > > Given my opinion, I will also agree there are reasons to be > suspicious. If Slytherin himself hatched it, that would make the > Basilisk 900 to 1,000 years old, and it seemed to be healthy and > thriving when Harry killed it, so no apparent signs of old age. That > would appear to imply that it had easily another 500 to 1,000 years of > life left in it. That's quite a long life for a creature that is not > immortal. > > Then there is the problem of food. There seemed to be a lot of rats, > mice, and other small creatures to eat, combined with the fact that > reptiles don't eat that much or that often. But in the course of 1,000 > years and given it's enormous size, one must ponder just how much food > it takes to satisfy a creature that big. > > Then there is the problem of Basilisk 'waste'; you would expect the > Chamber to be knee deep in Basilisk Dung. > > To the original question of how and why Slytherin would have had > and/or left a monster in the castle, I don't think he did. If the > Basilisk was indeed hatched by Slytherin then despite it's obvious > dangers, it probably would have only been a few feet long. > > One could also assume that Slythering could talk to it in Parsletongue > and control it in much the same fashion that Tom Riddle did. It's > clear Slytherin had an affinity for snakes, and what better snake for > a powerful parsletongue than the king of all serpents, the Basilisk. > > Admittedly, it may not be wise to have such a dangerous creature, but > on the other hand, where's the fun if there isn't a bit of danger > involved? So here's my question. Why, if the basilisk had been in the Chamber for so long, were the spiders just then fleeing? Wouldn't they have fled long before the Chamber was open? Surely as spiders, they could have gotten out long before now, and if not, wouldn't they all have been eaten by the basilisk? Isn't that why they were fleeing in the first place? Susan, who's just really curious about all those fleeing spiders. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Jun 2 21:41:40 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:41:40 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99929 --- Pippin wrote: > I have no problem believing that Sirius, loathing > Snape, acted on a murderous whim and told Snape what > to do. What I can't credit is that Snape, loathing > Sirius, acted on a whim and did it. > ....... > Snape, unlike Bertha, is usually careful and assesses > the risks in advance. Otherwise he'd have been > terminated with extreme prejudice a long time ago. > If Snape finds himself in unexpected hot water, it's > because he underestimates the risks that others are > willing to take...for Sirius to use the Shrieking > Shack as a refuge, or for James and Sirius to hex > him in front of witnesses, or for Harry and his > friends to attack him, for example. I largely agree with your analysis of adult Snape, but am not sure how valid it is to project all of that cautiousness back onto 15-year-old Snape. Even adult Snape sometimes lets his emotions get the better of him where Harry is concerned (the sputtering scene in PA, the temper tantrum at the end of the "Worst Memory" scene in OP). Place him back in the throes of adolescence, and confront him with the direct objects of his hatred (the Marauders) rather than the projected one (Harry), and I could see him getting carried away by an impulse. Amber's speculation at the beginning of this thread about Snape having some self-destructive impulses is also worth considering. We don't see those impulses in the adult Snape, but we certainly have enough background to understand how he could have felt that way at 15. Being an unpopular, bad-looking, bullied kid with a tough family life does not do quite as much for your self-esteem as being a Professor and Head of House at Hogwarts at the age of 35. If Snape was a bit self-destructive (even far short of suicidal), and a bit impulsive where the Marauders were concerned, I can see him rushing into something -- possibly at a more careful pace (giving James time to catch up to him), but without any really sober reflection. -- Matt From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Jun 2 23:33:10 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:33:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and Viktor, Was: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: References: <1468432358.20040529224814@vcem.com> Message-ID: <1202354223.20040602163310@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99930 Hi, Wednesday, June 2, 2004, 7:39:44 AM, scoutmom21113 wrote: > Bookworm: > I don't remember Viktor Krum "pushing for more". It's > been awhile since I read GoF, but I saw him as someone a little lost > in the social environment and he found a kindred spirit. We probably see him in similar ways, and I agree with what you say above. Except, I do think asking a 14-year-old girl to come visit him over the summer is a bit pushy (might be the mother in me coming into play here. My daughter is going on thirteen ). He also questions Harry about his relationship with Hermione, and to me it seem he wants to find out why Hermione is not willing to be more than a friend (thinking she might have a boyfriend, already). IMO, Hermione was trying to let him know she didn't really want more than friendship, while I had the strong feeling, Viktor was eager to move the relationship into romantic waters. I also liked Viktor, and hope we'll see more of him in future books. Hermione going to Ron's place during the summer seems different to me, because while Ron is obviously jealous of Viktor, he doesn't seem to pressure Hermione to change from friendship to more with himself, either. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 01:41:25 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:41:25 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Viktor, Was: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: <1202354223.20040602163310@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99931 Susanne: Except, I do think asking a 14-year-old girl to come visit him over the summer is a bit pushy (might be the mother in me coming into play here. My daughter is going on thirteen ). Bookworm: And mine just turned 12. A strengthening potion for both of us. And maybe a small batch of silencing potion for them? I didn't pay much attention to Viktor's invitation, probably because the Grangers' attitude toward their daughter's activities is already fictional. The whole idea of sending her off to an unknown school they have never seen and can't visit? She spends the summer at Grimauld Place (not that they know where she really is ? with the Weasleys but not *at* the Weasleys) and she unilaterally cancels her skiing trip to spend Christmas with Harry and the Weasleys instead of with her parents. They don't see her for a full year from the end of GoF to the end of OoP. Ravenclaw Bookworm From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 3 02:06:23 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:06:23 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BF143F.18100.559236@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 99932 On 2 Jun 2004 at 20:01, maa-dee wrote: > Now _that's_ an interesting theory! That's one of the funny things > about Snape. I think the good things that he does are behind the > scenes...in other words not in front of Harry. Afterall, in PS/SS, why > didn't Snape just go up to Harry and say "Listen, I think Quirrel's > trying to kill you/is dangerous, I'm keeping an eye on him, but you'd > better be careful."? It is only because Quirrel tells Harry that Snape > saved his life that Harry knows. It seems Snape would never have > admitted it to Harry's face. > > And if Snape did tip the Order off...there's yet another example. It's > things like this that make me wonder if Snape really does hate Harry. > Also his willingness to teach Harry Occlumency. > > Wait a second, I'm condradicting myself, here. I think Snape does > truly hate Harry, but he will go out of his way to help Harry when > it's needed or asked for. Maybe the fact that he does things to help > Harry, whom he hates, makes him hate Harry even more? I don't know. > I'm no phsychologist. > > The question is why does he go out of his way to help Harry? Is it > because despite how much he hates Harry he simply doesn't want him > dead? Or is there a much more interesting, yet-to-be-revealed reason > behind it? Perhaps it comes down to Snape's own self image and his own beliefs. I have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards Snape. A couple of the things he's done are to me, pretty much unforgiveable in a teacher. However, it's only a *couple* of the things he's done. His general method of teaching, frowned upon by many, is of a type I benefitted from at school. I had some very Snapish teachers, and it wasn't particularly pleasant to be around them - but they were *so* effective. I learned a lot from them. These men knew exactly what they were doing. They knew we didn't like them. They knew some of us hated them, and some of us actually feared them. They knew it - and they did it anyway. And the reason they did it was because they honestly believed - and rightly so - that they were highly effective teachers. I suspect Snape has something of the same attitude. He knows students don't like him - but he doesn't really care. It's not his job to make them like him - it's his job to teach them as effectively as he knows how. With this belief as part of the core of his self image ("I am a good teacher.") I think his treatment of Harry becomes understandable. Yes, I think he genuinely hates Harry - and he is quite prepared to show it - but not in situations where it would harm his ability to teach Harry (in his estimation - not necessarily in agreement with outside views). Goading Harry in cases where it might encourage him to learn, or even in cases where it would have no effect positive or negative on his learning is one thing. Doing it in cases where it would damage Harry's ability to learn is another thing entirely. That goes against his image as a teacher. And I think respect including self-respect is very important to Snape. Telling Harry Quirrel is trying to kill him, would likely serve no purpose - would Harry believe Snape had his best interests at heart? And Snape is likely confident enough in his own abilities to believe that he can protect Harry. But during the holidays, with the Dursley's - that's different. Snape can't protect Harry there. He also can't gain anything by Harry being mistreated. There's no reason for him to let it continue to happen. So in such a situation, I don't think it would take much for Snape to do the right thing - even the smallest trace of sympathy based on shared experiences might be enough. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jun 3 02:47:25 2004 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:47:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MESSAGE - Chicago Tribune interview request Message-ID: <27.59adf3d8.2defeb3d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99933 I'm in Michigan (a suburb of Chicago). Susan McGee SusanMcGee48176 734-944-4730 I have extensive experience talking with the press. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teshara at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 03:39:02 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 03:39:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Viktor, Was: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Susanne: > Except, I do think asking a 14-year-old girl to come visit > him over the summer is a bit pushy (might be the mother in > me coming into play here. My daughter is going on thirteen > ). > > Bookworm: > And mine just turned 12. A strengthening potion for both of us. And > maybe a small batch of silencing potion for them? We also don't know where Viktor is really from. For all we know he's from a poor farming family in a community where people are married off a lot younger. I have friends who feel sorry for me being so old and unmarried. I just turned 28, they have children with ages in the double digits. Apparently that's 2 years away from official Old Maid status in my hometown. (In California, no less.) I would assume Viktor is Bulgarian, but he could be from a smaller country without an official Quidditch team. Maybe? ~ Chelle From blue_toothpaste at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 19:39:24 2004 From: blue_toothpaste at hotmail.com (bluetoothpaste2000) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 19:39:24 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths, self-transfiguration, Quidditch captain. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99935 Hello all, I'm new to this site, as I needed to find somewhere to discuss things I've noticed and taken notes of, thing is I don't know whether anyone else has posted such things, so forgive me if I'm digging up old bones. First point - Heliopaths? I've searched in the archives for the word but no result, so - Luna Lovegood tells Hermione in the Hogs Head in book 5 that these 'spirits of fire' are part of Fudge's private army. Is this a crazy idea Luna picked up from her dad? Or has this got truth behind it, Luna's a slippery fish like that. JK said that there's a massive clue to what happens in the next books, and this is the only thing that sticks out for me. Second point - In book 4 we learn that in year 6 of Transfiguration the students learn how to transfigure themselves into anything, Krum turned himself into a shark during one task, but wasn't very good. So, with this newfound skill it could prove to become useful for Harry... Third point - I'm not sure, but are Angelina Johnson and another great chunk of the Gryffindor Quidditch team leaving at the end of book 5? This would leave the Quidditch captain position wide open for Harry... but I'm not sure. Book 6 will show all, I'm sorry if I'm wasting any time. Dave From irishwynch at aol.com Wed Jun 2 20:54:09 2004 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:54:09 EDT Subject: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: <148.2b165194.2def9871@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99936 Maddy writes: > The question is why does he go out of his way to help > Harry? Is it because despite how much he hates Harry > he simply doesn't want him dead? Or is there a much > more interesting, yet-to-be-revealed reason behind it? How about this.... He hates Harry because he's James' son but protects him because he's Lily's as well. I've always thought that one of the main reasons Snape was so jealous of James was because he loved Lily. Lupin mentions that he particularly hated James, thinking that it could have had something to do with Snape being jealous of his ability at Quidditch. It would be interesting to know when Snape became a spy for Dumbledore too. Could he have changed sides when he found out Voldemort is going after the Potters, Lily in particular? Marla From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Wed Jun 2 23:09:25 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:09:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99937 > Ginger: > Ohh, Alina, that was good! But it also got me thinking on a realted > thought:? Hermione's fear is failure.? What if she chose Gryffindor > because she feared she'd fail in comparison to the Ravenclaws?? > Better to be the big fish in the small pond, so to speak. Insecurity may have played a part in Hermione's choice of houses, but not because she thought necessarily Ravenclaw was the best. Oh no. In the first book, we find out that she had read that Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor. We get a clue from the scene that she views Gryffindor as the most prestigious of the houses. I think she needs to gain approval, so she strives for to get into what she thinks is the best house. But more than that I think Hermione is a true Gryffindor. She feels called to do things that would make the world a better place. Her campaign to free the house elves...her attempts to help Neville in potions (even though it gets her into trouble with Prof. Snape)?her organizing the DA are just some examples of her quests to make things better. She's not content just to be a passive, ivory tower intellectual. Just being considered smart isn?t good enough for her. It looks like she will have the credentials to consider a career in banking, an occupation that may appeal to a pure Ravenclaw, but she doesn't ?much fancy a career in banking.? It just doesn't catch hold of her imagination. Hermione like any true Gryffindor needs to be actively doing something. She needs a quest. Her acts of bravery may seem small, but in the end some of her deeds are very important. Reminds me of the things that we heard that Harry's mother did. Barbara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 2 23:16:51 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 19:16:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who Hatched the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99938 Curious Susan writes: | So here's my question. Why, if the basilisk had been in the Chamber | for so long, were the spiders just then fleeing? Wouldn't they have | fled long before the Chamber was open? Surely as spiders, they could | have gotten out long before now, and if not, wouldn't they all have | been eaten by the basilisk? Isn't that why they were fleeing in the | first place? Perhaps the spiders were just in the castle. So long as the chamber was still closed, the serpent couldn't get to them. Now that the chamber was opened, the lives of the spiders were in danger. Another possibility is that the spiders weren't so much afraid of being eaten but afraid of some magical ability of the basilisk. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 2 23:10:33 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 19:10:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99939 | From: maa-dee [mailto:madettebeau at gmail.com] | Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 16:01 PM | It would be a surprisingly *sensative* thing for Snape to do IMHO | (telling the Order about the Dursleys' mistreatment of Harry, that | is), if he did do it. That is, recognizing the emotional abuse and | neglect they treated Harry with, and then acting on it so that others | would definitely change it for the better. At Hogwarts, Snape seems to | enjoy mistreating and humiliating Harry, so why should he help out | where the Dursleys are concerned? Perhaps this is because Snape had a | similar childhood? The pensieve memory likely indicates at the very | least a verbally abusive father. Upon seeing and recognizing it, maybe | he informed Sirius who then asked Lupin to say something to the | Dursleys next time at the train station. [Lee]: OOOO--I'd love to believe that...But, for sure, Arthur Weasley and family would be good candidates for telling the order of Harry's life with the Dursleys, having dealt with it/them first hand. Of course, if Snape did in fact mention the horrible treatment to the order...this could make things interesting, as suggested in many posts. I can't help but consider the fact that there are some folk who just can't allow themselves to openly love, but do quirky little things where no one can see, things which would be considered totally out of character. Lots of good brain fodder! Love it! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 03:21:17 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The number 50 Message-ID: <20040603032117.42596.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99940 Does anyone know of any significance of the number 50 in canon? I find that I keep coming across the number; ie "...about 50 school rules", "...50 years ago". I know that there are other examples but I cannot place my finger on them at the moment. I tried searching the archives but could not find anything. Is this just coincidence or has anyone else noticed it? Moonmyyst (who already has tickets for the midnight show tomorrow!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 07:36:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:36:18 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99941 Debbie wrote: > One more point. Lupin's biggest failure to act, IMO, was not > telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus during PoA. However, > Dumbledore did not reject him because of this failure. In fact, > Dumbledore specifically mentions Lupin when he calls for Sirius to > round up the old crowd at the end of GoF. I expect he'll remember > that if Voldemort does come calling. > Carol: Without getting into the ESE!Lupin question, I don't know whether sending Sirius to Lupin had anything to do with demonstrating trust in Lupin. IMO, Lupin was the logical, in fact the only, place for Sirius to start in alerting the "old crowd"--the only surviving member of the old Order, other than Dumbledore, who knew that Sirius had not betrayed the Potters or murdered Peter Pettigrew and twelve Muggles. Sirius could not have gone alone to any of the Order members. The moment he showed his (human) face, he'd have been blasted by a "Stupefy!" (or, in Mrs. Figg's case, battered by a bag full of catfood cans). He'd have had to wait patiently in dog form while Lupin told his story to each Order member in turn. In fact, Sirius wouldn't even really be needed once he'd alerted Lupin, who could do the job more efficiently without the extra burden of having to explain Sirius as well as Voldemort. So in my view, contacting Lupin probably had less to do with forgiveness (though that no doubt played a role) than with simple practicality. There was no one else Sirius could safely go to. Carol From greatraven at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 07:58:33 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (Sue Bursztynski) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:58:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MESSAGE - Chicago Tribune interview request Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99942 & >Hi there! > >NOTE: discussion of the following that >does not involve canon should as always take >place only on OTC. > >An interview request from the Chicago Tribune >has arrived here at Hexquarters and we are >looking for all adult (18 or over) HPfGU >members who are residents of Chicago. Please >contact us at > >HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com >(minus the extra space) > Well, I'm not a Chicago resident, but if you want some non-residents' quotes, as you say below, here goes >- Why does Harry Potter appeal so much to >grown-ups? The series has depth and complexity. Not that most children's books don't, but this is a rich universe that is going to become a classic. Adults in the stories are as interesting as the child characters. > >- Why do you, personally, like the series >so much? I have always been a reader of children's books anyway, but I love the complexity (see above) and I can read the books again and again. It's like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers. > >- Your age, place of residence, profession >(also of interest: married or unmarried, >has kids or not) 50, Australia, teacher-librarian, no kids except other people's! Cheers! Sue > >On the off chance that the reporter asks >for concise and quotable sound bites from >non-Chicago residents too, we'd like to >ask for everyone's input. If you have ever >written (or have the time now to write) >answers to the above questions, please >email them to us at > >HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com >(minus the extra space) > >as soon as you can. If any of you out >there are willing and able, we hope you >will participate...and really, this is surely >one of our favorite topics here at HPfGU. > >This message might seem slightly unusual, but >it seems to be a great opportunity to publicise >our group and we are sure that many of our >members will welcome the chance to be involved. > >Thank you very much! We now return you to >the regularly scheduled programming of >merrily meandering discussion threads. > >:) Penapart Elf >for the List Admin Team > >REMINDER: discussion of the above that does >not involve canon should as always take place >only on OTC >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). > _________________________________________________________________ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2 From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 3 09:09:55 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:09:55 -0000 Subject: Vortigern = Voldermortist? was Re: Snape taking over for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > potioncat wrote: > > > I just read through that site on Mugglenet and found the background > > to Voldemort's name even more interesting than the one for Albus. > > Potioncat > > I have wondered about the "dark wizard in medieval times named > Voldermortist". What is the source for this information? It is > repeated on numerous web sites, but I can find no reference online to > "Voldermortist" that does not also include our dear Dark Lord > "Voldemort" as well...in other words the only on-line references to > Voldermortist are Harry Potter-related. So I'm beginning to be a bit > suspicious about Voldermortist--is he related to the crocodiles that > live in the New York sewers? > > Can anyone enlighten me? > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Alshain: Dang, there are times I wish I weren't on the "no e-mail" option, because this misunderstanding has cropped up before. Finding the original post that refuted the idea some 40,000 messages ago, with a search engine that might, or might not, work, is like searching for the proverbial needle, so I'll just recapture the main gist. The main point is that Voldemortist ought to be served with orange sauce like the canard he is. AFAIR, the original post, which I was looking for in vain, made the argument that since the stories that the websites told about this mythical wizard Voldemortist (e.g. that his name actually means 'overlord', he was an evil king and all-round bad guy, he was defeated by Arthur, or Merlin, or both) almost to a T fit the legends about one Vortigern, 5th century King of Britain and one of the great villains of Celtic legend. It's more than likely that someone initially mistook Vortigern (alternate spellings Vortimer or Vorteneu) for Voldemortist. Vortigern *is* a figure in the Arthurian legends and likely a historical person as well (as you know, it's difficult to tell what is fictional and what is cold hard facts with the accounts of the Dark Ages. Historians and linguists suggest that Vortigern might not be a name but a title.) It's a classical case of misinterpretation of data because you have a pet hypothesis you want to prove. This is what happens when several HP websites uncritically borrow their facts from one another, and I as a RL researcher get mightily peeved when people don't bother to double-check their facts and don't mention their sources. I hope the website makers do better at their school homework. Couldn't someone with more time on their hands and more knowledge of Early Medieval Studies than I write a short and to- the-point refutation of this rumour and ask Steve to add it to the lexicon? Alshain the Peeved From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 09:35:40 2004 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:35:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Bucking Broomstick Memory (Re: What is with the "Prank" ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Interesting stuff snipped... > To tell the truth, I took it almost as having some coded sexual > overtones, and I did think that Snape was more likely 13 or so. It > just has that feeling of male anxiety over inadequacy, especially > with the girl laughing at him, and that IS the sort of thing a boy > would worry about. It would be interesting to get a look at Snape's > *dreams*, as well as his memories! > > Wanda I agree - it may be the English Lit. graduate in me, but I immediately assumed that there was some sexual symbolism going on. As You say, it would be interesting to get a look at Snape's dreams. And it would be very interesting to see what Cuaron would make of this scene.... Catherine McK From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 09:48:54 2004 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:48:54 -0000 Subject: FILK: I Unwrapped my Firebolt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99945 I've been meaning to do this one for ages. Thank goodness for long train journeys finally forcing me to it. Catherine McK * I Unwrapped my Firebolt A filk to "Ill Wind," by Flanders and Swann, which is itself set to the tune of Mozart Concerto K.495, movement III and otherwise known as the French Horn song. The lyrics to that version can be found at http://www.nyanko.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fas/anotherhat_ill.html HARRY: I unwrapped my Firebolt and wanted to fly it For Gryffindor to win the match, but alack! They took it away e'en before I could try it They said it was sent me by Sirius Black! I need that broom; the other was whomped by a willow tree. I need that broom, doesn't matter who sent it to me I only desire To fly on that Fire- Bolt; it is the best broom I have known. Oh, the hours that I could spend Flying that broomstick from here to Land's End. But that was this morning and this evening McGonagall came to our room, Demanded the broom, said someone could have jinxed it. Oh, my Firebolt is gone! How could she, could McGonagall take my broom? Oh, my Firebolt is gone! Sirius? What a fuss. Now the Slytherins are sure to slaughter us. They'll strip it down; That is a crime, That broom is mine. My Nimbus 2000 was whomped by a willow In frenzied and vicious arboreal attack, But the Firebolt replacing it sugared the pill ? oh Who cares if `twas sent me by Sirius Black! Hermione, Hermione how could you do this to me? Hermione, Hermione, Hermione - flee! It isn't fair you didn't care about my feelings at all. No checks for curse or hex or jinx effects Will show a result on that broom. Oliver! Oliver! Can't you try to get it back from her? Will you kindly return that broom? Where is the Professor who pinched my broom? I shall tell Dumbledore I want my broomstick back. I miss my Quidditch more and more and more. Without a broom I've feeling sad and sunk in gloom. I unwrapped my Firebolt and wanted to fly it, Displaying my talent on the Quidditch pitch, But this Christmas day to my utter dismay McGonagall took it away. I unwrapped my Firebolt and wanted to fly it, but McGonagall took it away. I unwrapped my Firebolt, was longing to try it, but McGonagall took it away. I won't speak to Hermione. Now the Trio's just two and not three. But who did send that broomstick to me? From silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 22:43:22 2004 From: silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com (Aldo) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:43:22 -0000 Subject: We can keep calling him Voldy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99946 I just checked the rumors section of JKR's website and run across this: "JKR is deadly serious when she forbids people to call Voldemort 'Voldy' Erm... I was joking. I thought it was very amusing when I found a chat room full of people calling him 'Voldy'. Maybe I should develop a secret symbol that means 'this is a joke', a kind of anti-Dark Mark? And incidentally... I wasn't really Squidward that day in the MuggleNet chat room, either. That's a SpongeBob SquarePants in-joke. I used a different name. So you can all stop logging on as Squidward now ;)" The woman is seriously developing a taste for messing with our heads and yanking our chains, it seems. I hope she comes up with the "this is a joke" symbol fast or we'll lose our minds. "Aldo" From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 03:40:02 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant (Hermione's Boggart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040603034002.57163.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99947 > Ginger: > Ohh, Alina, that was good! But it also got me > thinking on a realted > thought: Hermione's fear is failure. What if she > chose Gryffindor > because she feared she'd fail in comparison to the > Ravenclaws? > Better to be the big fish in the small pond, so to > speak. bamf here: I took Hermione's boggart not so much to be a fear of failure as it was letting down someone who put a lot on the line for her. Hermione said it (and I don't have my book in front of me at the moment) was McGonagall who said she failed everything. McGonagall had written to the Ministry about what an outstanding student HG was and how she would never misuse the time turner and basically putting herself on the line saying what a GOOD, RESPONSABLE person HG is. What if her 'failure' was less to do with academics and more to do with mis-using that trust? (Funny, how she did in the end...) More that she let McGonagall down by screwing up her classes but also with her responsability? And please let me know if I'm not making sense! I've been sick all week and the anti-biotics have been messing with my mind... Ta! bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From SinfulSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 3 06:10:35 2004 From: SinfulSnape at aol.com (SinfulSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 02:10:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heliopaths, self-transfiguration, Quidditch captain. Message-ID: <690E210D.07EF9DAA.3FB48BA4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99948 In a message dated 6/2/2004 3:39:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blue_toothpaste at hotmail.com writes: > Second point - In book 4 we learn that in year 6 of Transfiguration the > students learn how to transfigure themselves into anything, Krum turned himself > into a shark during one task, but wasn't very good. So, > with this newfound > skill it could prove to become useful for Harry... I've always wondered something and since you brought it up I will pose this questions. When Krum transfigured himself into a shark in GOF, how is tranfiguring yourself different from being an Animagus? From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 04:55:36 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Memory (was Thestrals) In-Reply-To: <000b01c448cb$4cc730a0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20040603045536.15737.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99949 Susan (teilani) wrote: > > why she could see them. Remember, all Harry could > really remember > > was the green light and something about a flying > motorcycle. IIRC, > > it wasn't until the dementors came alon that he I managed to dig out PoA. And it seems like Harry only hears what's going on. (Quotes will be from American Version. My Brit version is on loan at the moment...) >From pg 179, Chapter Nine "Grim Defeat" "And then he heard it again.... Domeone was screaming, screaming inseide his head.... a woman 'Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!' 'Stand aside, you silly girl...stand aside, now....' 'Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -' Could the demetors be more like the Pensive and force you to relive things surrounding your worst memory? I ask that because later on, Harry hears his father, but there's no indication of which room he's in (Pg 240 - 'Lily take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off-' The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter-) as we don't know if it's Lily stumbling across the room to get to Harry's room or if it's James crossing the room to confront Moldy Voldy. It would seem to me that if Harry had actually seen what happened as a child - would he see it when the Demetors were near? I forget which character said it, but they said a Demetor makes you *relive* your worst memory. (Please correct me if I'm misremembering... I've skimmed my book and can't find the quote I'm looking for...) Thoughts? bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 05:06:25 2004 From: tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com (I Am Lord Moldy Vat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 05:06:25 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <148.2b165194.2def9871@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99950 > Maddy writes: > > The question is why does he go out of his way to help > > Harry? Is it because despite how much he hates Harry > > he simply doesn't want him dead? Or is there a much > > more interesting, yet-to-be-revealed reason behind it? Marla wrote: > How about this.... He hates Harry because he's James' son but > protects him because he's Lily's as well. I've always thought > that one of the main reasons Snape was so jealous of James was > because he loved Lily. Lupin mentions that he particularly hated > James, thinking that it could have had something to do with Snape > being jealous of his ability at Quidditch. It would be interesting > to know when Snape became a spy for Dumbledore too. Could he have > changed sides when he found out Voldemort is going after the > Potters, Lily in particular? I absolutely agree. I think Snape sees a lot more of Lily in Harry than he'd care to admit to himself, and that he tries to see more of what he hated in James as a defense mechanism. But I don't think he changed sides when he learned Voldy was after the Potters. We learn in POA that DD had "a number of usefull spies" and that one of them warned DD what Voldy was up to. Only a Death Eater, someone in Voldy's inner circle, could have known that sort of information, don't you think? ~Pixie (Of the superhappyfun variety!) From jasonlava at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 10:43:47 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:43:47 -0000 Subject: FILK: She's a bad DADA Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99951 She's A Bad DADA Teacher (to the tune of "She's a Bad Mamma Jamma" by Carl Carlton) HARRY (suffering while writing lines with the magic quill) Yeahhhh Oooohhhh! Ohh ohh ohh! Look it hurts! (now singing) She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be Her body measurements and just too gross to mention Her nasty self put me sure enough in detention A ministry notion, to hire a spy to see I get so disgusted when she is around me HARRY/DADA STUDENTS She's mean/She is mean, she is wacked Give Hogwarts a heart attack (HARRY)Does all the things that we don't like She's bad/She is nasty, she is bad Worst teacher we've ever had (HARRY)I'd like to set her robe on fire Look This hurts! She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be Looks like she's probing the whole school She's so the essence of ugly under an ugly hat She's such a nasty when she teaches classes She's Hell on wheels, when she punishes me HARRY/DADA STUDENTS She's cruel/She is cruel, she is fat Has a brain just like a bat A high inquisitor is she She's dumb/She is dumb, nothin' nice With her little beady eyes Send her back to the ministry Oohhh Wee! She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be UMBRIDGE Hem! Hem! STUDENTS: DADAaaa.. DADAaaa.. DADA DADAaaa DADAaaaa DADAaaaaaa .. UMBRIDGE Hem! Hem! STUDENTS: DADAaaa.. DADAaaa.. DADA DADAaaa DADAaaaa DADAaaaaaa .. UMBRIDGE Hem! Hem! STUDENTS: She is crazy, she's a snitch Such a crazy ugly witch HARRY Her nasty attitude is just too bad to mention She's got a way to put me sure enough in detention I wish I knew a potion to get her away from me I get so digusted when she's around me HARRY/DADA STUDENTS She's mean/She is mean, she is wacked Give Hogwarts a heart attack (HARRY)Does all the things that we don't like She's bad/She is nasty, she is bad Worst teacher we've ever had (HARRY)I'd like to set her robe on fire Look This hurts! She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be (HARRY: Oh oh oh oh oh oh ) She's a bad DADA teacher just as mean as she can be (repeat until fade) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 10:57:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:57:59 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <148.2b165194.2def9871@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99952 > Maddy writes: > > The question is why does he go out of his way to help > > Harry? Is it because despite how much he hates Harry > > he simply doesn't want him dead? Or is there a much > > more interesting, yet-to-be-revealed reason behind it? Marla responds: > How about this.... He hates Harry because he's James' son but protects him > because he's Lily's as well. Potioncat: I've always thought that the hating James explanation was either a cover or only part of the story. IMHO, if Severus had loved Lily, he would not hate her son, no matter who the father was. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 11:05:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:05:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99953 > > > Ginger: > > Ohh, Alina, that was good! But it also got me thinking on a realted > > thought:? Hermione's fear is failure.? What if she chose Gryffindor > > because she feared she'd fail in comparison to the Ravenclaws?? > > Better to be the big fish in the small pond, so to speak. Barbara wrote: > Insecurity may have played a part in Hermione's choice of houses, but > not because she thought necessarily Ravenclaw was the best. Oh no. In > the first book, we find out that she had read that Dumbledore had been > in Gryffindor. We get a clue from the scene that she views Gryffindor > as the most prestigious of the houses. Potioncat: I'm not sure that Hermione "made" a choice. Hermione said the Sorting Hat considered Ravenclaw. We don't know that she said, "Oh, please, I'd like Gryffindor." The Sorting Hat may have mulled over Ravenclaw and Gryffindor and then chose Gryffindor itself. IIRC, she was responding to someone saying they were surprised she wasn't in Ravenclaw and she said the Sorting Hat had considered it. I don't think Hermione was implying that she rejected Ravenclaw. (Sorry, don't have my book with me.) Potioncat From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Thu Jun 3 11:32:27 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:32:27 -0400 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: <690E210D.07EF9DAA.3FB48BA4@aol.com> References: <690E210D.07EF9DAA.3FB48BA4@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040603072716.02a14250@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99954 blue_toothpaste writes: > > Second point - In book 4 we learn that in year 6 of Transfiguration the > > students learn how to transfigure themselves into anything, Krum turned > himself > > into a shark during one task, but wasn't very good. So, > > with this newfound > > skill it could prove to become useful for Harry... Sinful Snape asks: >I've always wondered something and since you brought it up I will pose >this questions. When Krum transfigured himself into a shark in GOF, how >is tranfiguring yourself different from being an Animagus? Phil replies: I think the ability of Animagus needs no wand but you can only become one type of creature. The transfigure spell needs a wand but you can be many different animals. Phil, hoping that he's correct. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 11:30:06 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:30:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Bucking Broomstick Memory (Re: What is with the "Prank" ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99955 Wanda wrote: To tell the truth, I took it almost as having some coded sexual overtones, and I did think that Snape was more likely 13 or so. It just has that feeling of male anxiety over inadequacy, especially with the girl laughing at him, and that IS the sort of thing a boy would worry about. It would be interesting to get a look at Snape's *dreams*, as well as his memories! vmonte responds: Yes, I read this scene as having very Freudian undertones. I also see it as being about sexual inadequacy. By the way, this scene reminds me of what happened to Neville his first year of school. Is the child riding the broomstick 11 years old? Also, if the penseive automatically groups thoughts to find patterns, as some fans think, then the girl that is laughing is probably Lily. That would mean that Snape holds grudges. Lily laughed at him when he was 11 and he later pays her back by calling her a mudblood in the penseive scene. Poor Snape, he sure doesn't seem to be able to forgive or forget. vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 11:39:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:39:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's Bucking Broomstick Memory (Re: What is with the "Prank" ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99956 -snip<< Vivian wrote: >snip<< > Also, if the penseive automatically groups thoughts to find patterns, > as some fans think, then the girl that is laughing is probably Lily. > > That would mean that Snape holds grudges. Lily laughed at him when > he was 11 and he later pays her back by calling her a mudblood in the > penseive scene. > > Poor Snape, he sure doesn't seem to be able to forgive or forget. > Potioncat: But remember, this wasn't the penseive, this was a memory Harry saw when he accidentally got into Snape's mind. And for all we know, that girl laughing at him that day went on to become the mother of his twins. Potioncat who adds the disclaimer that the twins are a figment of her imagination. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 3 13:12:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:12:56 -0000 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040603072716.02a14250@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Phil Vlasak wrote: > > Sinful Snape asks: > >I've always wondered something and since you brought it up I will pose > >this questions. When Krum transfigured himself into a shark in GOF, how > >is tranfiguring yourself different from being an Animagus? > > Phil replies: > I think the ability of Animagus needs no wand but you can only become one > type of creature. > The transfigure spell needs a wand but you can be many different animals. > Not quite, or rather that's not the most critical effect. Animagi retain their human intelligence and emotions when in animal form; transfiguration into an animal results in a downgrading to the natural animal's level of intelligence and knowledge. That's why Krum didn't do a full transfiguration - he'd have forgotten what he was supposed to be doing and started acting like a real shark. Kneasy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 3 13:44:09 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:44:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The number 50 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99958 I have wondered if anyone has thought about 50 years ago as in who all was at school at the same time. We know Hagrid and Tom Riddle were, but I think by my calculations that James, Lilly, Lupin, Sirius - the whole crew were there together. Maybe not in the same year, but definitely at the same time. Did Lilly know Moaning Myrtle? Gina A. Miller -----Original Message----- From: K G [mailto:moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:21 PM To: hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] The number 50 Does anyone know of any significance of the number 50 in canon? I find that I keep coming across the number; ie "...about 50 school rules", "...50 years ago". I know that there are other examples but I cannot place my finger on them at the moment. I tried searching the archives but could not find anything. Is this just coincidence or has anyone else noticed it? Moonmyyst (who already has tickets for the midnight show tomorrow!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Thu Jun 3 13:42:14 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:42:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: <1085751243.7967.55034.m7@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085751243.7967.55034.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <65019.143.250.2.101.1086270134.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99959 Snow: > >A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in >the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to >this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you >immediately" > > >http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=trailer&id=1808404334&intl=us > > >Snow-aka Kathy King Sorry; I've been away from the action for a while; turmoil at the office. I watched this clip and saw, not necessarily that Lupin loved Lily, but that she was one of those people that everybody loved. Always there to help, looking out to do the right thing: everything that's good and noble about Harry is a reflection of his mother. The problem with the movie (movies in general, in fact) is that, in order to make sense of specific actions but compress the story into a 'single bag of popcorn' event, some things have to be alluded to (all mention of the dead chickens is deleted from CoS, except for one fleeting glimpse when Hagrid runs into DD's office) and others have to be distilled. This book is the first glimpse we get into the lives of the senior Potters, so a lot of what we enjoyed in allusion and word pictures in canon gets dropped into the film as exposition in one conversation. We have to understand, for the movie to work, that Lily was universally beloved. >From the book, we get hints and drops here and there of how neat she was. In the movie, we get all of that from Lupin. I'm going to the midnight show tonight. I hope I"m not disapoointed. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 14:01:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:01:16 -0000 Subject: The number 50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99960 Gina wrote: > I have wondered if anyone has thought about 50 years ago as in who all was > at school at the same time. We know Hagrid and Tom Riddle were, but I think > by my calculations that James, Lilly, Lupin, Sirius - the whole crew were > there together. Maybe not in the same year, but definitely at the same time. > Did Lilly know Moaning Myrtle? Potioncat: Actually, Riddle, Hagrid, and Myrtle are quite a bit older than James, Lily, and that gang. The Lexicon has a pretty good timeline. It's at this site: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/ Potioncat From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 15:07:58 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:07:58 -0000 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Kneasy: > > Not quite, or rather that's not the most critical effect. > > Animagi retain their human intelligence and emotions when in animal > form; transfiguration into an animal results in a downgrading to the > natural animal's level of intelligence and knowledge. > > That's why Krum didn't do a full transfiguration - he'd have > forgotten what he was supposed to be doing and started acting like > a real shark. > > Kneasy bboy_mn: You are correct Kneasy, I think JKR said that in an interview, and I'm pretty sure it is referenced in "Quidditch Though The Ages". Using standard spell transfiguration, the more primitive the animal you transform into, the more primitive your mind becomes. Regarding Krum's transfiguration into a 'shark head boy'; I, as well as Harry, assumed he had done a poor job of it, but it was actually quite brilliant. He sufficiently tranformed himself so he could breath under water, but he retained the use of his hands (and wand), legs, and most important, even though it was in a shark's head, his brain. Also, note that spell only lasted an hour. True, we don't know for a fact whether he transfigured himself back to normal or if the spell just wore off, but I suspect that is a limitation of transfiguration spell, some of them are only temporary where as animagus is under the control and will of the person. Now I must point out that the original observation that started this thread was flawed (in my opinion). Dave (BlueToothPaster2000) said: > Second point - In book 4 we learn that in year 6 of Transfiguration > the students learn how to transfigure themselves into anything, Krum > turned himself into a shark during one task, but wasn't very good. > So, with this newfound skill it could prove to become useful for > Harry... I'll bet dollar to donuts** that what Hermione actually said was that they start learning Human transfiguration in 6th year, not SELF-tranfiguration. To me, that implies transfiguring other humans which sound EXTREMELY dangerous. Would you volunteer to let Neville tranform you? bboy_mn **Back when donuts were 10 cents that used to be a good bet, but now that they are 70 cents, it's lost some of it's appeal. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 15:33:25 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:33:25 -0000 Subject: Quidditch captain. (minus Heliopaths, self-transfiguration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluetoothpaste2000" wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm new to this site Bookworm: Welcome, Dave: > Third point - I'm not sure, but are Angelina Johnson and another great chunk of > the Gryffindor Quidditch team leaving at the end of book 5? This would leave > the Quidditch captain position wide open for Harry... but I'm not sure. Bookworm: This has been discussed in several threads, but not for awhile now. Other major candidates for the position are Ron and Ginny. The partial thread I found started with message #91290 back in February. It's obviously a continuation of previous posts - just scan up and down on the message board from that post to find others. Good hunting. Ravenclaw Bookworm From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Jun 3 16:54:19 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:54:19 EDT Subject: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: <1c6.1a1b9a12.2df0b1bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99963 In a message dated 06/03/2004 6:49:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lee writes: I can't help but consider the fact that there are some folk who just can't allow themselves to openly love, but do quirky little things where no one can see, things which would be considered totally out of character. Lots of good brain fodder! Love it! :-) I made a very strange connection the other day while watching the last episode of M*A*S*H. Anybody remember Charles Emerson Winchester III? A cranky, selfish, snooty old English gent who virulently hated being stuck where he was; who was cordially disliked and made fun of by all; who looked down his nose at everyone else; and who also *hated* it when he got caught giving expensive chocolate to the Korean orphans, and broke down when the Chinese refugees he'd taught to play Mozart were killed... For some reason he made me think of Snape. JCS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 17:04:17 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:04:17 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: <65019.143.250.2.101.1086270134.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99964 Snow: A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you immediately" http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=trailer&id=1808404334&intl=us "David Burgess" wrote: Sorry; I've been away from the action for a while; turmoil at the office. I watched this clip and saw, not necessarily that Lupin loved Lily, but that she was one of those people that everybody loved. Always there to help, looking out to do the right thing: everything that's good and noble about Harry is a reflection of his mother. The problem with the movie (movies in general, in fact) is that, in order to make sense of specific actions but compress the story into a 'single bag of popcorn' event, some things have to be alluded to (all mention of the dead chickens is deleted from CoS, except for one fleeting glimpse when Hagrid runs into DD's office) and others have to be distilled. This book is the first glimpse we get into the lives of the senior Potters, so a lot of what we enjoyed in allusion and word pictures in canon gets dropped into the film as exposition in one conversation. We have to understand, for the movie to work, that Lily was universally beloved. >From the book, we get hints and drops here and there of how neat she was. In the movie, we get all of that from Lupin. I'm going to the midnight show tonight. I hope I"m not disapoointed. Snow again: When Lupin said this line in the POA clip: "Yes, oh yes I knew her" he appeared as if he was in blissful thought of a long lost love. Must be my interpretation of the scene. The next several lines however seem, to me, to be the most provoking: "Your mother was there for me at a time when no one else was She had a way of seeing the beauty in others most especially when that person couldn't see it in themselves." When a woman acts sweet and kind to a man the way Lupin describes here, I can defiantly see that man falling in love with her even if it isn't intentional. It's kind of like falling in love with your rescuer. Lily was there for him when he had no one and didn't feel good about himself. Again, just my interpretation. As far as the movie, can't wait to see it! I am a bit jealous that wherever you are they have a midnight run. I've checked all of our listings and there isn't anyone starting the show at midnight. I have to wait till tomorrow night because my daughter is playing in the orchestra at graduation and she wont let me go without her. Snow From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 17:08:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:08:08 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <1c6.1a1b9a12.2df0b1bb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99965 JCS wrote: > Lots of good brain fodder! Love it! :-) > I made a very strange connection the other day while watching the last > episode of M*A*S*H. Anybody remember Charles Emerson Winchester III? A cranky, > selfish, snooty old English gent who virulently hated being stuck where he was; > who was cordially disliked and made fun of by all; who looked down his nose at > everyone else; and who also *hated* it when he got caught giving expensive > chocolate to the Korean orphans, and broke down when the Chinese refugees he'd > taught to play Mozart were killed... > > For some reason he made me think of Snape. > x Potioncat: Oh, I agree! Yes, he is a lot like Snape! (He was from New England, by the way.) As nasty as Snape is, he strikes me as someone who is afaid to let people get too close. And I still think that McGonagall knows something about Snape/Potions/Harry that made her smile at the thought of Harry taking Potions for two more years when she was doing his Career Advice Session. Potioncat (who bets Snape's adorable with his twins) ;-) From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 17:16:50 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:16:50 -0000 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99966 bboy_mn wrote: > I'll bet dollar to donuts** that what Hermione actually said was that > they start learning Human transfiguration in 6th year, not > SELF-tranfiguration. To me, that implies transfiguring other humans > which sound EXTREMELY dangerous. Would you volunteer to let Neville > tranform you? Earendil: You're right about Hermione saying they start learning human transfiguration in 6th year (I think she said this in GoF), and I can't wait for book 6 to learn more about this. But I always assumed it meant self-transfiguration, at least for the main part. It's a known fact that transfiguration is hard and dangerous. So as you said, would you trust anyone to experiment human transfiguration on you? (apart from people like McGonagall of course) And in fact, would you even experiment on yourself, knowing how wrong it could turn? You would have to be either very confident about your own abilities, or very daring (though being stupid is another possibility...) Earendil. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 17:21:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:21:58 -0000 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99967 > bboy_mn wrote: snip To me, that implies transfiguring other humans > > which sound EXTREMELY dangerous. Would you volunteer to let Neville tranform you? > > Earendil wrote: > xsnip<< So as you said, would you trust anyone to experiment human transfiguration on you? (apart from people like McGonagall of course) And in fact, would you even experiment on yourself, knowing how wrong it could turn? You would have to be either very confident about your own abilities, or very daring (though being stupid is another possibility...) Potioncat: I'll bet Draco is going to be very, very nervous in that class! And doesn't it remind you of the stories where an angry witch turns someone into a toad? Potioncat From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Jun 3 17:33:10 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:33:10 EDT Subject: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: <156.36a54bfa.2df0bad6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99968 In a message dated 06/03/2004 6:49:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Marla ( irishwynch at aol.com) writes: >How about this.... He hates Harry because he's James' son but protects him because he's Lily's as well. I've always thought that one of the main reasons Snape was so jealous of James was because he loved Lily. Lupin mentions that he particularly hated James, thinking that it could have had something to do with Snape being jealous of his ability at Quidditch. It would be interesting to know when Snape became a spy for Dumbledore too. Could he have changed sides when he found out Voldemort is going after the Potters, Lily in particular? --- In a message dated 06/03/2004 12:10:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: > I've always thought that the hating James explanation was either a cover or only part of the story. IMHO, if Severus had loved Lily, he would not hate her son, no matter who the father was. --- Jo Ann: Unless he blamed both father and son for the mother's death. Voldemort was after James and Harry specifically at Godric's Hollow, correct? Reason enough for Snape to loathe the kid. Which doesn't preclude him also feeling a strong impulse to protect him. Emotions can be complex and contradictory things. A fact which no doubt would drive poor Severus (who, as a Potions Master and a notorious Rules Lawyer, must like things fairly orderly and predictable) 'round the twist, just trying to figure out what he really thinks... Then again, in contemplating the Snape/Lily theory, it has also occurred to me that Snape might hate Harry because the kid is James Potter's son *and not his own.* Or because he's a constant reminder that Severus failed to save both the man he owed his life to, and the woman he loved. Or--and here I'll throw the whole Severus/Lily thing out the window a for a minute, and take a different tangent--maybe he's just tired and bitter and lonely, stuck in a job he hates, disliked and distrusted by both colleagues and students, doing some nasty stressful undercover work for the Order, constantly fearing for his own life/health/sanity and the future of the Wizarding World...and he simply doesn't have the wherewithal to deal gracefully with a ghost from his own unhappy past while simultaneously making sure Neville doesn't blow up the school. Makes me wonder how long it will be before we see the guy well and truly crack under the pressure. Jo Ann ...who knows this has all been chewed over before, and isn't too convinced the Severus/Lily connection will be borne out in Books 6 or 7, but loves the theory anyway. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 18:13:08 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:13:08 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <156.36a54bfa.2df0bad6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99969 Marla writes: > > >How about this.... He hates Harry because he's James' son but protects him > because he's Lily's as well. I've always thought that one of the main > reasons > Snape was so jealous of James was because he loved Lily. Jo Ann: > Then again, in contemplating the Snape/Lily theory, it has also occurred to > me that Snape might hate Harry because the kid is James Potter's son *and not > his own.* > > Or because he's a constant reminder that Severus failed to save both the man > he owed his life to, and the woman he loved. > Jo Ann > ...who knows this has all been chewed over before, and isn't too convinced > the Severus/Lily connection will be borne out in Books 6 or 7, but loves the > theory anyway. Susan (teilani) here: I used to think that there might be something to the Severus/Lily thing, but after seeing the Remus trailer for the movie, I am now considering that perhaps Remus is the one who had a thing for Lily. Now, I'd never want to see both, and I doubt JKR would do that(as in, Lily's so great that half the school's in love with her), and if Sirius was sufficiently concerned about Remus' loyalty to the Potters that he made Peter the secret keeper instead of Remus, then I doubt Remus had a thing for lily. Unless of course, he hid it so well that no one noticed, though I doubt that would be an easy thing to do, especially given his comments in the trailer about how she was there for him when he felt like no one else was. I guess in a nutshell I'd have an easier time believing that Snape loved Lily over the idea that Remus did. That would explain lots of things as far as Snape's concerned (IMHO) and if it was Remus who had the crush, I believe that would complicate matters re: what we already know about the Fab Four. Susan (who can work Sirius into nearly any discussion ;-) From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 18:48:29 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:48:29 -0000 Subject: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99970 > bboy_mn wrote: > > I'll bet dollar to donuts** that what Hermione actually said was > that > > they start learning Human transfiguration in 6th year, not > > SELF-tranfiguration. To me, that implies transfiguring other humans > > which sound EXTREMELY dangerous. Would you volunteer to let Neville > > tranform you? > > Earendil: > > You're right about Hermione saying they start learning human > transfiguration in 6th year (I think she said this in GoF), and I > can't wait for book 6 to learn more about this. But I always assumed > it meant self-transfiguration, at least for the main part. > > It's a known fact that transfiguration is hard and dangerous. So as > you said, would you trust anyone to experiment human transfiguration > on you? (apart from people like McGonagall of course) And in fact, > would you even experiment on yourself, knowing how wrong it could > turn? You would have to be either very confident about your own > abilities, or very daring (though being stupid is another > possibility...) > > Earendil. Jason: I assumed Neville wouldnt be in the newt transfiguration classes and wouldnt be turning anyone into a ferret or other such things. But on the other side of that, maybe Nevilles new confidence will spur him on to greater things outside of herbology. Maybe he'll do something fun to Bellatrix one day. Jason, who thinks Nevilles gran is mostly the reason he's slow and not the result of memory charms. Everyone can't be a genius. From madettebeau at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 18:48:07 2004 From: madettebeau at gmail.com (maa-dee) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:48:07 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <156.36a54bfa.2df0bad6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99971 Jo Ann wrote: > Unless he blamed both father and son for the mother's death. Voldemort was > after James and Harry specifically at Godric's Hollow, correct? Reason enough > for Snape to loathe the kid. > > Which doesn't preclude him also feeling a strong impulse to protect him. > Emotions can be complex and contradictory things. A fact which no doubt would > drive poor Severus (who, as a Potions Master and a notorious Rules Lawyer, must > like things fairly orderly and predictable) 'round the twist, just trying to > figure out what he really thinks... > > Then again, in contemplating the Snape/Lily theory, it has also occurred to > me that Snape might hate Harry because the kid is James Potter's son *and not > his own.* > > Or because he's a constant reminder that Severus failed to save both the man > he owed his life to, and the woman he loved. Maddy writes: While I've never really bought the Snape loved Lily theory, but your's is the only line of thinking that could make me believe it. Even if he did love Lily (which I'm not too convinced about...more on that in a bit) I think his hatred of Harry would be because he's Lily and James's son, not Lily and Snape's. Continuing that "if", maybe Snape hates James even moreso because he died, and somehow Snape blames James for Lily's death as well. And maybe he even blames Harry (and also James because if it weren't for James, Harry wouldn't exist) for Lily's death. Both Lily and James died trying to protect Harry. Before OotP came out I might have believed it possible for Snape to have loved Lily, but the pensieve scene in OotP, I think, dispelled that possibility. Snape clearly hated Lily (at that point in time at least) almost as much as he hated James and Sirius. Perhaps his prejudice against Mudbloods and Gryffindors were the main cause, but he obviously didn't like her. However, there's still the possibility that he's got a million possible covers, walls, masks, or whatever you want to call them, to hide his *true* thoughts and feelings. But I think his disgust with most people is somewhat genuine. Although he may have gotten used to being hateful and hated that it's just become his way of life for him. But maybe that was caused by being really emotionally hurt, possibly having his heart broken by a girl. But somehow I don't think it was Lily. Here's a random thought, what if he was in love with Bellatrix Lestrange/Black? Jo Ann wrote: > Or--and here I'll throw the whole Severus/Lily thing out the window a for a > minute, and take a different tangent--maybe he's just tired and bitter and > lonely, stuck in a job he hates, disliked and distrusted by both colleagues and > students, doing some nasty stressful undercover work for the Order, constantly > fearing for his own life/health/sanity and the future of the Wizarding > World...and he simply doesn't have the wherewithal to deal gracefully with a ghost > from his own unhappy past while simultaneously making sure Neville doesn't blow > up the school. > Maddy writes: I never really took Snape to be a worry-wart, but perhaps you have a point, here. Maybe he's resentful to Harry because he's done things that have helped him, yet Harry doesn't show gratitude, really. But I think that can only be part of it. You might be right though, it's quite possible though Snape has a lot on his plate to worry about. While somehow, I think Snape would only worry about the fate of the Wizarding world if it would directly affect him. I know that makes him sound selfish, but, again, I think he's the type of person who has to have good (and by that I mean, logical, convincing, etc) reasons to risk his own skin for others. And I think his reasons have to do with the yet untold story of how he became a Death Eater and what made him turn around and help the Order. Jo Ann wrote: > Makes me wonder how long it will be before we see the guy well and > truly > crack under the pressure. Maddy writes: I'd love to see Snape crack. And by crack, I don't mean going completely insane with rage and unreasonable (as we sort of saw in PoA), but break down and show some emotion other than disgust and hatred. It would be nice to see a different side to Snape. I feel a little heartless saying I want to see him break down, but I think it's got to happen sometime. Besides, I think we all want to know more about him. =) Maddy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 19:27:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:27:15 -0000 Subject: Puddin' Head Wilson was Re: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - prophecy implications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "A.J." wrote: > >Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > > > Another tidbit from this link: > > "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, > > > > Neri now: > > > > If the Celtic year starts on November 1st, then the end of the > > seventh month would be the end of May, not of July. This might have > > implications on the interpretation of the prophecy. Do we know > > anybody in HP whom his birthday is by the end of May? > > Oh my, why does this remind me back to the threads wondering if > Dudley was the referenced one and that was part of the deal Petunia > is holding secret, as perhaps in Mark Twain's _Tragedy of Puddin'head > Wilson_ or so? I recall some theorizing on this board last summer. > > aj Potioncat: Not sure how to snip the above, so I didn't. Yep, Dudders came to my mind. Didn't we work out he's a couple of months older than Harry? Now, having read Puddin Head myself...long before anyone tied it to Harry Potter...and having had an ironic connection to Harry Potter made at the dentist....I have to say, I don't quite get the connection. Here is what I recall of the plot: A slave mother switches her son (most likely her owner's son) for the owner's legitimate son and raises them together. Her son now the young master and the other now a slave. The switch is discovered and her son, having become a real jerk and a murderer is sent back to slavery and the legitimate son, who became very nice, is elevated back to owner. Other than a possible mistaken identity, how would this compare? I would think for the Potter stories, a Shakespeare mistaken identity connection would be more likely. Potioncat From sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu Jun 3 20:35:35 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:35:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE:... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness Message-ID: <3b.484a7d80.2df0e597@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99973 In a message dated 5/30/2004 12:54:25 PM Mountain Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > > So I can't believe that it was curiousity alone that got Snape into > the tunnel, or that he would knowingly act with reckless > disregard for his own skin. As Phineas emphasizes to us, that's > not a Slytherin trait. Did somebody slip *Snape* a > hot-headedness potion? > > Pippin > > But I don't really think that Snape really fits the Phineas Nigellus model. (Neither does Regulus Black, for obvious reasons, but he's not exactly a Ravenclaw, either.) Snape had to have turned against Voldemort sometime between the late 70's and 1981 when Voldemort was at the height of his powers or getting there. Even Lupin in OOP is not sanguine about the Order's chances then....."the Death Eaters outnumbered us twenty to one and they were picking us off one by one" (I''m sure you'll ask why he knows.) One could also deduce from LV's words in the graveyard that he was beginning to suspect Snape as a traitor, as well. I wonder how long Snape sat under the Sorting Hat, and whether it might have been the opposite of Harry's situation. Of course can you imagine what Snape would have gone through if he'd been sorted into Gryffindor? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 3 20:55:01 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:55:01 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: <3b.484a7d80.2df0e597@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99974 snipping<<< >Amber wrote: > But I don't really think that Snape really fits the Phineas Nigellus model. > (Neither does Regulus Black, for obvious reasons, but he's not exactly a > Ravenclaw, either.) > > Snape had to have turned against Voldemort sometime between the late 70's and > 1981 when Voldemort was at the height of his powers or getting there. Even > Lupin in OOP is not sanguine about the Order's chances then....."the Death > Eaters outnumbered us twenty to one and they were picking us off one by one" > (I''m sure you'll ask why he knows.) One could also deduce from LV's words in the > graveyard that he was beginning to suspect Snape as a traitor, as well. > > I wonder how long Snape sat under the Sorting Hat, and whether it might have > been the opposite of Harry's situation. Of course can you imagine what Snape > would have gone through if he'd been sorted into Gryffindor? > Potioncat: I really should have snipped more, just couldn't and have my response make any sense. I never thought about what was happening in general when Snape "came back." Your post does show the courage it would have taken for him to do that. Your suggestion that he might have had the opposite situation as Harry is very interesting. We've come up with lots of similarities between the two of them. And what if he asked for Slytherin, because he had already had a bad beginning on the train with Sirius and James? (They would have already been sorted into Gryffindor by the time it was Severus' turn) What a possibility! Potioncat From antonia at timself.net Thu Jun 3 15:34:27 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:34:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040603112957.021245b0@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99975 From: maa-dee [mailto:madettebeau at gmail.com] >| It would be a surprisingly *sensative* thing for Snape to do IMHO >| (telling the Order about the Dursleys' mistreatment of Harry, that >| is), if he did do it. That is, recognizing the emotional abuse and >| neglect they treated Harry with, and then acting on it so that others >| would definitely change it for the better. At Hogwarts, Snape seems to >| enjoy mistreating and humiliating Harry, so why should he help out >| where the Dursleys are concerned? Perhaps this is because Snape had a >| similar childhood? The pensieve memory likely indicates at the very >| least a verbally abusive father. Upon seeing and recognizing it, maybe >| he informed Sirius who then asked Lupin to say something to the >| Dursleys next time at the train station. > I think however its qualitatively different what Snape does to Harry at school and what the Dursley's do at home. And even Snape would see the difference. Improperly clothed, fed, educated, sleeping in a broom closet under the stairs, that's a heckuva lot different than being snarked at for not knowing things in school or having points taken from one's house. Snape never did anything that deprived Harry of what one would consider normal living items. Also, one could say that Snape had to snark at Harry because if he didn't people might notice he was helping him, which doesnt help Harry much, but the other professional staff (minus Filch who treats EVERYONE THE SAME) were making up for Snape admirably. So it very well might have been Snape who told. Tana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irishwynch at aol.com Thu Jun 3 16:36:20 2004 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:36:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: <1d7.22d6d129.2df0ad84@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99976 In a message dated 6/3/04 3:51:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com (Pixie) writes: But I don't think he changed sides when he learned Voldy was after the Potters. We learn in POA that DD had "a number of usefull spies" and that one of them warned DD what Voldy was up to. Only a Death Eater, someone in Voldy's inner circle, could have known that sort of information, don't you think? But Snape was a Death Eater, in the inner circle. Remember how he and Karkaroff mention the marks on their arms burning. Marla [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 3 17:34:43 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:34:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99977 | From: potioncat [mailto:willsonkmom at msn.com] | Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 13:22 PM | > Earendil wrote: | > xsnip<< | So as you said, would you trust anyone to experiment human | transfiguration on you? (apart from people like McGonagall of | course) And in fact, would you even experiment on yourself, knowing | how wrong it could turn? You would have to be either very confident | about your own abilities, or very daring (though being stupid is | another possibility...) | | | Potioncat: | I'll bet Draco is going to be very, very nervous in that class! | | And doesn't it remind you of the stories where an angry witch turns | someone into a toad? Draco will probably remember with all-to-great clarity the feeling of being a bouncing white ferret. :-) And if, for some wonderful reason he's teamed up with Ron...well, the not-so-happy return of the ferret could be a possibility. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the sixth book re human transfiguration. You're right...there could be dangerous and, I'm sure, awfully funny results. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who's allergic to ferrets!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 3 17:54:50 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:54:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: self-transfiguration In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040603072716.02a14250@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99978 | From: Phil Vlasak [mailto:pcsgames at toltbbs.com] | Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 7:32 AM | I think the ability of Animagus needs no wand but you can only become one | type of creature. | The transfigure spell needs a wand but you can be many different animals. | | Phil, hoping that he's correct. [Lee]: You may be correct. In Chapter 20 of POA, after Lupin transforms into a werewolf, Peter dives for Lupin's wand, there is a bang, then Peter changes back into a rat. I'm assuming the bang is Peter breaking his manacle, not his transformation. I say this because Sirius, too, had no want on him and used Ron's or someone else's, and Peter didn't have one when forced back to human form, so he needed Lupin's to break free of the chain. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From irishwynch at aol.com Thu Jun 3 20:42:22 2004 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:42:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Snape's role Message-ID: <1a5.24231ad5.2df0e72e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99979 In a message dated 6/3/04 11:52:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, madettebeau at gmail.com writes: Before OotP came out I might have believed it possible for Snape to have loved Lily, but the pensieve scene in OotP, I think, dispelled that possibility. Snape clearly hated Lily (at that point in time at least) almost as much as he hated James and Sirius. Perhaps his prejudice against Mudbloods and Gryffindors were the main cause, but he obviously didn't like her. I felt that Snape's lashing out with the "mudblood" statement when Lily stepped up for him had more to do with the embarrassment of the moment, not because he disliked her. Marla [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennyferlynne0276 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 21:59:49 2004 From: jennyferlynne0276 at yahoo.com (jennyferlynne0276) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:59:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99980 While listening to TOoP for the fifth time, it struck me: Why, when Harry first came to Hogwarts, did Snape assume that he would be just like his father, when Harry wasn't even raised in awareness of his parents or the wizarding world? Why does Snape assume that Harry would find what his dad did in the memory (TOoP, "Snape's Worst Memory")funny or amusing, or that Harry purposfully emulates someone who he doesn't remember and had absolutely no influence over Harry's upbringing? Jennyfer From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 3 22:45:44 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:45:44 -0400 Subject: Dudders' Birthday--May or June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99981 Potioncat wrote: | Yep, Dudders came to my mind. Didn't we work out he's a couple of | months older than Harry? I would figure that Dudley's B-D is in June since Harry's home for the summer and has to endure that wretched day. Perhaps it's at the very beginning of June, but I can't see that Hogwarts lets out in may. After all, there are the Easter holidays, then finals, etc., so that would shoot down May pretty much right there. Ah--well...true, I don't know how school terms run in the UK. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 00:24:50 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:24:50 -0000 Subject: Puddin' Head Wilson was Re: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - prophecy implications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Now, having read Puddin Head myself... > I don't quite get the > connection. > > Here is what I recall of the plot: > A slave mother switches her son (most likely her owner's son) for > the owner's legitimate son and raises them together. Her son now the > young master and the other now a slave. The switch is discovered > Other than a possible mistaken identity, how would this compare? That's what I've been wondering, since it seems that small elements from many different sources are referenced through canon. The things that stick out to me are: a) the two boys are named Tom and Chamber! b) as you mention, the intentional switch by the mother for the good of her son as she saw it, and the other one being discovered as the true heir... c) there are also more twins in the story, oddly, two young men everyone likes... (they get framed) Odd... Lotta twins in the HP story too (Patil, Weasley, Tom/Harry comparisons, Neville/Harry comparisons, etc.) Probably just snippets of what makes up canon... ?? aj From heynorty at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 00:49:02 2004 From: heynorty at yahoo.com (heynorty) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:49:02 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99983 Potioncat: > I'm not sure that Hermione "made" a choice. Hermione said the > Sorting Hat considered Ravenclaw. We don't know that she said, "Oh, > please, I'd like Gryffindor." The Sorting Hat may have mulled over > Ravenclaw and Gryffindor and then chose Gryffindor itself. IIRC, she > was responding to someone saying they were surprised she wasn't in > Ravenclaw and she said the Sorting Hat had considered it. I don't > think Hermione was implying that she rejected Ravenclaw. (Sorry, > don't have my book with me.) > Potioncat IMO---Hermione was sorted into Gryffindor simply because she wanted to placed into that one particular house. When she is first introduced to Ron and Harry on the train, she rambles on about how Gryffindor is supposedly the "best" house and how she would like to be placed within it. So much like Harry, I would imagine Hermione asked the hat to place her in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw, much like how Harry wanted to be placed into Gryffindor and not Slytherin. Oddly enough, if Hermione was placed into Ravenclaw--she would probably have much better school experience and social standing. If anything--the hat should not have complied with her wishes and sorted her into Ravenclaw--since it seems that would be the more logical choice for her. In fact Ravenclaw would the type of house that would teach a Hermione Granger to care at all what a Ron Weasley's opinion is. From jasonlava at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 11:10:26 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:10:26 -0000 Subject: FILK: Alive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99984 Alive (to the tune of "Alive" by Immortalized) I'm in a Christian band called Immortalized. I play the drums and sing backup vocals. We have a new CD out called "Alive" which I'll be filking and I might even record a filked version of the album.. Song samples can be heard here http://www.immortalized.org/music.html VOLDEMORT I was always alive and it's true I was always alive I was always alive and it's true I was always alive I was a spirit floating deep in the forest going nowhere I was a vapor when I When I was saved Nothing more than floating mist feeding on dead unicorn's blood Dwelling in the dark depths of the woods Now I'm alive! I will pour my hate on you Voldemort is now alive And there is nothing you can do Voldemort is now alive And I will rule over you Voldemort is now alive I was always alive and it's true I was always alive I was always alive and it's true I was always alive (to Wormtail) You came to me there somehow and you give me life when I needed it You overwhelmed me with your Loyalty! Brewing the potion on that night, and then I rose up with power again And I called the death eaters unto me! Now I'm alive! I will pour my hate on you Voldemort is now alive And there is nothing you can do Voldemort is now alive And I will rule over you Voldemort is now alive I was always alive and it's true I was always alive I was always alive and it's true I was always alive (repeat chorus) From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri Jun 4 01:33:08 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:33:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99985 Jennyfer said: While listening to TOoP for the fifth time, it struck me: Why, when Harry first came to Hogwarts, did Snape assume that he would be just like his father, when Harry wasn't even raised in awareness of his parents or the wizarding world? Why does Snape assume that Harry would find what his dad did in the memory (TOoP, "Snape's Worst Memory")funny or amusing, or that Harry purposfully emulates someone who he doesn't remember and had absolutely no influence over Harry's upbringing? Lady Macbeth replies: He seems to have made the same assumption that most everyone else in the wizarding world (save perhaps McGonagall and Dumbledore) made - that Harry was told about his parents, knew what they were like and why he was famous. Even Hermione, when she first met him, seemed surprised that he didn't know anything about being in history books and such. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 01:45:29 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:45:29 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > snipping<<< > >Amber wrote: > > But I don't really think that Snape really fits the Phineas > Nigellus model. > > (Neither does Regulus Black, for obvious reasons, but he's not > exactly a > > Ravenclaw, either.) > > > > Snape had to have turned against Voldemort sometime between the > late 70's and > > 1981 when Voldemort was at the height of his powers or getting > there. Even > > Lupin in OOP is not sanguine about the Order's chances > then....."the Death > > Eaters outnumbered us twenty to one and they were picking us off > one by one" > > (I''m sure you'll ask why he knows.) One could also deduce from > LV's words in the > > graveyard that he was beginning to suspect Snape as a traitor, as > well. > > > > I wonder how long Snape sat under the Sorting Hat, and whether it > might have > > been the opposite of Harry's situation. Of course can you imagine > what Snape > > would have gone through if he'd been sorted into Gryffindor? > > > Potioncat: > I really should have snipped more, just couldn't and have my > response make any sense. I never thought about what was happening > in general when Snape "came back." Your post does show the courage > it would have taken for him to do that. > > Your suggestion that he might have had the opposite situation as > Harry is very interesting. We've come up with lots of similarities > between the two of them. And what if he asked for Slytherin, > because he had already had a bad beginning on the train with Sirius > and James? (They would have already been sorted into Gryffindor by > the time it was Severus' turn) What a possibility! > Potioncat Oh, are we going back to my favourite little assumption that "Snape was a Gryffindor." It is indeed a lovely idea that he could have tell the opposite of what Harry said to Sorting Hat and be sorted to Gryffindor anyway. I am going to ask the question to which I did not get the satisfactory (to me, of course :)) answer last time we discussed it. Maybe someone will help me understand it this time. :) Why Sirius phrased his little description of Snape's house association that strangely - "run with the gang of Slytherin"? Why woud not he say something to the effect - he was one of those (bad, horrible, whatever) Slytherins? Alla From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 01:59:52 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:59:52 -0000 Subject: FILK: Metamorph Girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99987 Metamorph Girl (parody of "Cinnamon Girl" by Neil Young) Guess who this song's about ;-) I wanna live with the metamorph girl I can be happy the rest of my life With the metamorph girl A changer of faces, a wonderful sight You see us together alone in the moonlight My metamorph girl A witch full of magic, she flies on her broom A muggle relaxes, she comes to his room Oh his metamorph girl In magical places, we walk in the night You see us together alone in the moonlight My metamorph girl I can't reject you now, I gotta win you somehow Give me another chance You got this muggle in a trance Yeah Yeah Yeah From tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 02:31:25 2004 From: tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com (I Am Lord Moldy Vat) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:31:25 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: <1d7.22d6d129.2df0ad84@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99988 > tinkerbell634 at y... (Pixie) writes: > > We learn in POA that DD had "a number of useful spies" and that > > one of them warned DD what Voldy was up to. Only a Death Eater, > > someone in Voldy's inner circle, could have known that sort of > > information, don't you think? Marla: > But Snape was a Death Eater, in the inner circle. Remember how he > and Karkaroff mention the marks on their arms burning. That's my point. It was Snape who told DD that Voldy was after the Potters, and he'd been a spy for DD for quite some time at that point. ~Pixie (Of the superhappyfun variety!) From firedancerflash at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 02:23:33 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:23:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The number 50 References: Message-ID: <093101c449da$ef2fec50$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 99989 I think it's something like coincidence? Doesn't everyone have a favorite number? One of mine is the number seventeen, as in a phrase like seventeen snowblowers, or seventeen fruitcakes. I don't know if it's the rhythm or aliteration that I like. Fifty could possibly be such a number for J.K. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 03:28:05 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 03:28:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Jennyfer said: > > While listening to TOoP for the fifth time, it struck me: Why, when > Harry first came to Hogwarts, did Snape assume that he would be just > like his father, when Harry wasn't even raised in awareness of his > parents or the wizarding world? Why does Snape assume that Harry > would find what his dad did in the memory (TOoP, "Snape's Worst > Memory")funny or amusing, or that Harry purposfully emulates someone > who he doesn't remember and had absolutely no influence over Harry's > upbringing? > > > Lady Macbeth replies: > > He seems to have made the same assumption that most everyone else in the > wizarding world (save perhaps McGonagall and Dumbledore) made - that Harry > was told about his parents, knew what they were like and why he was famous. > Even Hermione, when she first met him, seemed surprised that he didn't know > anything about being in history books and such. > > -Lady Macbeth > > SOF: I agree with Lady McBeth. Add to that Snape's enmity towards the Marauder's runs so deep he has obviously been transfering it to Harry who is a very visual reminder of James Potter. After his actions with regards to Occlumency, Snape clearly can't be trusted to put his grudge aside for the greater good. Apparently, he really only saved Harry from Quirrel so he could hate James' memory in earnest. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 4 03:58:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 03:58:47 -0000 Subject: Houses was Re: RE:... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99991 snip snip snip<<<< Alla wrote: > Oh, are we going back to my favourite little assumption that "Snape > was a Gryffindor." > > Why Sirius phrased his little description of Snape's house > association that strangely - "run with the gang of Slytherin"? > > Why woud not he say something to the effect - he was one of those > (bad, horrible, whatever) Slytherins? Potioncat: I'll play along. I think the wording is "he was a part of a gang of Slytherins." Sorry, do not have my book with me. It reminds me of the phrase, in the same book I believe, that "Harry was reminded of another Gryffindor player" He was comparing Ron to James and it was Jo's way of saying James was in Gryffindor, but a lot of readers argued (until Jo said so) that it could be Harry's error, assuming James was in Gryffindor. So at any rate, I take the phrase to mean Snape was in Slytherin. But I do see how you can read it as "he was part of that Slytherin group, even though not a Slytherin." How about this idea? Several times we are told that McGonagall is wearing green robes. She managed to get Harry on the quidditch team in year one. She doesn't give homework to Gryffindors before a quidditch match. Doesn't she have some fine Slytherin qualities? I wonder what House she was in! And wouldn't that make for some fun if Gryffindor Snape, head of Slytherin is competing with Slytherin McGonagall head of Gryffindor? Potioncat who is trying to work out a way to see PoA before it goes to DVD! Potioncat From LadySawall at aol.com Fri Jun 4 04:04:26 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:04:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4658 Message-ID: <53.d886572.2df14eca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99992 In a message dated 06/03/2004 10:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Maddy writes: Before OotP came out I might have believed it possible for Snape to have loved Lily, but the pensieve scene in OotP, I think, dispelled that possibility. Snape clearly hated Lily (at that point in time at least) almost as much as he hated James and Sirius. Perhaps his prejudice against Mudbloods and Gryffindors were the main cause, but he obviously didn't like her. --- Jo Ann: Heh. I spend entirely too much time thinking about these things... :) There was a crowd watching. Some of them were probably Slytherins, and even if they weren't, word would have gotten around. Now consider for a moment what kind of grief any fifteen-year-old male, in any school, would get from the other boys if he were publicly "rescued" by a girl. Add the extra resentment James and the Marauders would feel, and the extra punishments they'd devise for Snape, if they thought for one minute that the Greasy Git was soft on the girl James fancied, or vice versa. Compound that by the sort of punishment a Slytherin could expect from his own Housemates if he were helped by a Gryffindor. Multiply *that* by the punishment a Pureblood (and conceivably, his family) could expect after being saved by a Mudblood when there's a big anti-Muggle movement on the rise. I think Severus would have been decidedly nasty to Lily under those circumstances, whether he liked her, hated her, or was completely indifferent to her--out of sheer self-preservation. Acting grateful, or even just accepting her help without a word one way or the other, would have been akin to diving into shark-infested waters drenched in seal's blood. Note that he didn't come up with the "Mudblood" remark the minute Lily stepped in--he said nothing until James stated that he was lucky Lily had been there. Which suggests to me that it wasn't an off-the-cuff insult; he'd had a moment to think the situation through and realize what a precarious position he was in. And not just him, but Lily too. She surely would have gotten a share of the unfriendly Sytherin/Pureblood attention as well. I reiterate that I don't really think it's a theory that will turn out to be true...JKR likes to throw us red herrings too much...but I do think it's fairly defensible, as of the end of OotP. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 04:16:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 04:16:51 -0000 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040527112331.0201f438@www.timself.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99993 Phil wrote: How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they were so intent on ignoring their existance? Indeed, how did Vernon know that Harry was "about the same age" as Dudley? Tana responded: I personally presumed that even if she was ignored by her sister, Lily would have said SOMETHING about having a baby, maybe not directly to Petunia (maybe their parents were still alive? I Have no clue) But a baby is big enough news that even people ignoring you would probably have been told. Lily might have even TRIED to use it to get back in with her sister? You have a baby, I have a baby, lets be friends again? Carol adds: Or Petunia sent Lily a birth announcement hoping for a gift and Lily reciprocated (not for a gift, which she wouldn't be likely to receive, but just to pass on the news)? Also, Petunia knew about Lily's wedding, so I imagine she was invited (but didn't attend) or received an announcement for that as well. And Lily could have kept up with Petunia (the wedding and the baby) through the Muggle papers if she chose to. And Petunia, being the nosy person she is, probably had ways of finding out about Lily, too. Maybe Mrs. Figg was a longtime mutual acquaintance! Carol From madettebeau at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 05:19:05 2004 From: madettebeau at gmail.com (maa-dee) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 05:19:05 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape's role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99994 Pixie wrote: > > > We learn in POA that DD had "a number of useful spies" and that > > > one of them warned DD what Voldy was up to. Only a Death Eater, > > > someone in Voldy's inner circle, could have known that sort of > > > information, don't you think? Marla wrote: > > But Snape was a Death Eater, in the inner circle. Remember how he > > and Karkaroff mention the marks on their arms burning. Pixie wrote: > That's my point. It was Snape who told DD that Voldy was after the > Potters, and he'd been a spy for DD for quite some time at that > point. Maddy writes: What I think needs to be addressed here is weather or not Snape became a DE in order to spy on Voldy (muahaha, we *can* say Voldy!), or if he became a DE because he wanted to, but *then* turned around, decided it wasn't what he wanted to do, and became spy for Dumbledore. I had always assumed it was the latter. =) Maddy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 06:02:47 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 06:02:47 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? - Pensieve Recall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99995 > bboy_mn wrote: I think we need to give the Pensieve more credit that is obvious at first glance. When we move through life our minds are recording a great deal more information than we are consciously aware of. We walk down the street and see ants on the sidewalk, but they are so insignificant to our current mental focus that we block them from our conscious mind; in other words, we ignore them. But that doesn't mean the visual images that entered our eyes were not recorded in our subconscious. This has been demonstrated by placing people under hypnosis in a police investigations for example. People who have no conscious knowledge of certain details are able to recall them when the barrier between their conscious and subconscious memory is lowered. The data is there even though they have no conscious recall. So, given all that, I personally don't think the Pensieve has to 'fudge' much on the details. Even if, for example, Snape did not look over toward the tree where James and his friends were sitting, he has still seen that tree and the grounds around it many many times, and his memory would have been able to fill in the voids of the moment with general memories it had previously stored. Expanding this example, let's say Snape was hidden from view by the bush he was sitting next to. If he faintly heard Sirius or James voices in the distance, he would have been able to form a mental image of them from general knowledge of what they looked like and where they were on the grounds. So, he could have a fairly accurate mental image without actually looking. Then when he stood up to walk away, his preconceived mental image would have been spontaniously adjusted when he glanced in their direction. This is true even if he generally ignored them as he got up and turned to walk away. All these examples are trying to point to the fact that our brain records tremendous volumes of data as we move through life. Volumes of data of which a substantial portion never registers with our conscious mind. Based on that, I don't have a problem with the Pensieve showing unusually rich detail when it plays back a memory. Carol: Although I agree with you that the Pensieve is not "fudging" the details, I think there's a simpler explanation: Magic. IMO, it's not a subjective memory, even a subjective memory amplified by unconsciously recorded details; or rather, the moment a personal, subjective memory is placed in the Pensieve, it becomes magically transformed into an objective record of what happened. As I've said fairly frequently, we are not in Severus's mind as he takes the exam or tries to fight off the Maruaders any more than we're in Dumbledore's mind as he witnesses the trials (or hearings) in the MoM. All the participants in the all of the Pensieve memories, including the owner of the particular memory, are viewed from the outside and Harry can move around inside the memories at will, away from the person who "owns" the memory. He happens to sit next to Dumbledore and overhear his conversations with Moody in the MoM, but he could have walked around and overheard conversations that Dumbledore didn't hear, exactly as he does in the memory of the DADA exam and the events leading up to "Snape's worst memory." He's an unseen presence inside the events *as they happened,* an eye witness years after the fact, unhampered by the limitations of Dumbledore's or Snape's personal perception or their subjective interpretation. That's what makes the Pensieve so useful, after all. It removes the memories from their subjective context so they can be studied (or hidden from a Legilmens, as the case may be). Severus almost certainly didn't overhear, even distantly, the werewolf conversation, which had to have been conducted out of hearing of anyone except the Marauders. They certainly wouldn't have been so indiscreet as to let him or any other Slytherin overhear them. We, the readers, hear the conversation because Harry wanders away from Severus (who is absorbed in his DADA exam, undoubtedly retaking the test in his mind) to keep up with the person he was interested in knowing more about, his father. But because the Pensieve recreates the incident and the people involved whether or not the owner or the memory was aware of them, Harry can overhear exactly what they said even though Snape didn't. (It's just possible that Snape has masochistically engaged in the same tour through his own memory, but his awareness at the time or in the present has no effect on the objective presentation of the memory.) BTW, I wonder if all the senses are stored in the memories. Harry can sit on a bench, so he's not just hearing and seeing as we do in a dream. Can he smell the stale air in the classroom or feel the breeze ruffling his hair? Could he touch a person in the memory even though they wouldn't feel his touch? Carol, who wishes we could see a memory of the so-called Prank, which I'm sure had nothing to do with uncanonical magical barriers or Peter Pettigrew From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 06:17:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 06:17:51 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99996 Lady Macbeth wrote: > > I don't know that she'll have to "invent" a lot of pretexts at all - logic dictates that if Voldemort truly is bent on taking back control of the wizarding world and later the muggle world, he's not going to care too much about disrupting classes at a secondary school. ^_^; Undoubtedly, with many of his Death Eaters imprisoned he'll be looking to recruit once again, and we've already gone over a number of candidates from Slytherin house - not all of which will graduate until Harry graduates. Also, who's to say there aren't potential recruits in the other houses? > > Even that aside, life in general is going to be stressful and disrupted for many families. I am actually seeing Dumbledore and the rest of his staff having a hard time keeping the school running as normal during the next two years, rather than having things that would pull Harry out of the school come as a "surprise" of any kind. This is particularly true when one considers that the biggest threats Voldemort perceives to his power - Dumbledore and Harry - are both well entrenched in the school normally. Carol: Also, given what happened to Lucius Malfoy at the end of OoP and Draco's resentment of Harry as a consequence, I have a feeling we'll see a lot more of that particular conflict--an angrier and possibly more dangerous Draco. And I think we'll see a bit of the mysterious Theodore Nott as well, whether for good or ill, I don't know. It will be interesting to see how Snape deals with the tensions and conflicts involving Slytherin and Gryffindor--how to keep the respect of the students in his own House without revealing where his loyalties really lie should pose a real dilemma. No, I don't think we need to go outside Hogwarts quite yet. Save that for Book 7. Carol, who knows that "my own House" is movie contamination (in the books, it's Phineas who uses the phrase) but I couldn't think of any other way to express my meaning gracefully From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 07:25:23 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 07:25:23 -0000 Subject: Dudders' Birthday--May or June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99997 Lee wrote: > I would figure that Dudley's B-D is in June since Harry's home for the > summer and has to endure that wretched day. Perhaps it's at the very > beginning of June, but I can't see that Hogwarts lets out in may. After > all, there are the Easter holidays, then finals, etc., so that would shoot > down May pretty much right there. > > Ah--well...true, I don't know how school terms run in the UK. Ginger, after checking her books, responds: Actually, the only time we see the Big Dud's birthday is in the first book, before they go off to school. Harry and Dudley go to the zoo that day, after which Harry earns his longest time in the closet ever. Then, after he gets out, Harry has his birthday. The other books start with Harry's birthday, or a reference to it as being in the near past. In GoF, the final task was on 24 June, which was when finals were over, and then they had a week to wait for the results, so I would assume that the school year always runs through the end of June. I believe that I have heard it said by real live actual British people that this is accurate. I would guess Dudley's birthday is late May or early June, just so long as it's not 17 June. That's my birthday, and I don't feel like sharing with the likes of him ;P Ginger, noting that we are coming up on message 100,000 and suggesting that we all raise our hands and yell "Woo Hoo" in unison to celebrate. 11,000+ people all doing the same thing can't look that stupid. From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 4 07:31:07 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:31:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604073107.47941.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99998 jennyferlynne0276 wrote: While listening to TOoP for the fifth time, it struck me: Why, when Harry first came to Hogwarts, did Snape assume that he would be just like his father, when Harry wasn't even raised in awareness of his parents or the wizarding world? Why does Snape assume that Harry would find what his dad did in the memory (TOoP, "Snape's Worst Memory")funny or amusing, or that Harry purposfully emulates someone who he doesn't remember and had absolutely no influence over Harry's upbringing? Now UdderPD When Hagrid met Harry and the Dursley's at the start of HP&tPS (SS) he assumed that Harry knew all about who and what he was. After the Dementor incedent in HP&tOotP it was obvious that PD knows about the WW and has not been letting on to Harry.It seems that the information was there for Harry but it was never passed to him. So prior to Harry receiving his letter and arriving at Hogwarts everyone would assume that he was fully informed of who and what he is. Snape however is an evil, childish, berk, he would have been perfectly well aware of Harry's lack of basic WW information. But he did not care. He constantly abuses his position to belittle and decry Harry in perpetuance of his unjustified grudge. Unfortunatly there are real people like this. Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 07:49:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 07:49:56 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99999 Alla asked: > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > be a virtue. Is it true? Carol: Possibly JKR was influenced by her reading of English literature. Shekespeare's "good" characters seem to regard ambition as a serious character flaw, even a deadly one: Surrey (in Henry VIII): Thy ambition, Thou scarlet sin, robb'd this bewailing land Of noble Buckingham, my father-in-law. . . Cardinal Wolsey (same play): Cromwell, I charge thee, fling away ambition: By that sin fell the angels. Macbeth (in MacBeth): I have no spur To prick the sides of my intent, but only, Vaulting ambition, which o'er-leaps itself, And fails on th' other. That's just a sample, of course. We know where ambition led Macbeth, and Claudius in "Hamlet," and Shakespeare's unhistorical Richard III, and a number of other figures in his. Just possibly JKR's Salazar Slytherin was influenced by those characters, or rather by the assumption behind their depiction that ambition leads to disaster (cf. "pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"). That's the best I can come up with at the moment. I don't think though, that JKR's favorite author, Jane Austen, considered ambition a vice, but then she wrote romantic comedies, not tragedies. Carol, who is too sleepy to come up with any more examples at the moment From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jun 4 08:06:41 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:06:41 -0000 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100000 Phil Boswell wrote: > Book 1, Chapter 1, Page 1. > > How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they > were so intent on ignoring their existance? I think OOP shows us that Petunia knows a lot more than she pretends to. The Dursleys' denial of magic is quite obsessive, really, and my guess is that, just as Petunia hides behind the net curtains and watches Privet Drive, she also took care to know what Lily was up to, while concealing her interest David 100,000? From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 03:54:52 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:54:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: self-transfiguration References: Message-ID: <0b2801c449e7$b0a0fcb0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100001 Just thinking. Imagine if Ron's wand malfunctioned again? What would Draco be if he aimed it at him? Lol!!! Lee talked about the return of the ferret. Do you think JKR would have a small chapter book by that name? Or could it be the Torment of Draco? Lolol! Btw, I'm Littlekat or Li if you prefer, and I am new to the group. As a point of history, I've known Lee for about 33 years. Oy that's a loooong time!!! From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 04:01:58 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:01:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hatred for Harry References: Message-ID: <0b3301c449e8$aea5ac70$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100002 Jennyfer wonders about Snape's hatred for Harry. I'm thinking that it is possible Snape was considering Harry's genetic past rather than actual experience, especially when Harry had, as Jennyfer pointed out, no experience of his own immediate family. Of course, even though Petunia is Lily's sister, that does not really play into experience for Harry since both sisters were/are obviously so different. Or could it be that Snape just hates anything Potter with a fanatical fervor? Also as an aside, I love the way your name is spelled, Jennyfer. Littlekat From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 04:03:46 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:03:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudders' Birthday--May or June References: Message-ID: <0b3801c449e8$ef648880$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100003 About Dudder's birthday, hmm, well I had the feeling that it was either in the middle of or the end of June. Littlekat From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 08:12:03 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:12:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100004 heynorty wrote: > IMO---Hermione was sorted into Gryffindor simply because she wanted > to placed into that one particular house. When she is first > introduced to Ron and Harry on the train, she rambles on about how > Gryffindor is supposedly the "best" house and how she would like to > be placed within it. So much like Harry, I would imagine Hermione > asked the hat to place her in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw, much > like how Harry wanted to be placed into Gryffindor and not > Slytherin. Earendil: IIRC, I think what Hermione said on the train was that *Ravenclaw* seemed to be the best House, but that Gryffindor seemed to be a fine House as well and she wouldn't mind being sorted there. Sorry, I don't have the book with me, I lent it to a friend. So would anyone please care to check? Earendil. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 4 08:30:12 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:30:12 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Snip > > No, I don't think we need to go outside Hogwarts quite yet. Save that > for Book 7. > > Carol, > IMO (should be H but I'm still working on that!), the final showdown has to be at Hogwarts. I find this very hard to justify because it simply feels right. In no particular order here are my 'reasons': It is the spiritual home for the main protagonist, antagonist and for DD (the narrator). It is the safe home for all members of the magical community: giants, centaurs, elves, werewolves, spiders (yeuk), ghosts, half breeds, squibs, Malfoy, Snape and Trelawny! It is the historical home for the WW split and where that split is still acted out in the form of houses. It is the shared home of absolutely all the main characters including the dead ones. There are still areas to be explored and explained, in particular the chamber, the forest, the ghosts (and now the graveyard possibly). This is a coming of age story, traditionally this is marked by a symbolic change of state e.g. getting married, becoming a king, dying (don't panic), and in this case graduating (I think). Most compelling for me however is that it is the place where the books and the story truly come alive, Hogwarts is the single most charismatic 'character' in the books, it lives, has secrets both good and bad, has a past and internal conflict. To me Hogwarts 'is' JKR, it shares her sense of humour and generous nature. Regards Jo (coo that came from the heart!) From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 4 09:38:39 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:38:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604093839.68629.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100006 earendil_fr wrote: heynorty wrote: > IMO---Hermione was sorted into Gryffindor simply because she wanted > to placed into that one particular house. When she is first > introduced to Ron and Harry on the train, she rambles on about how > Gryffindor is supposedly the "best" house and how she would like to > be placed within it. So much like Harry, I would imagine Hermione > asked the hat to place her in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw, much > like how Harry wanted to be placed into Gryffindor and not > Slytherin. Earendil: answered IIRC, I think what Hermione said on the train was that *Ravenclaw* seemed to be the best House, but that Gryffindor seemed to be a fine House as well and she wouldn't mind being sorted there. Sorry, I don't have the book with me, I lent it to a friend. So would anyone please care to check? and now UdderPD HP&tPS UK paperback starting at the bottom of page 79 Hermione speaking, ............"Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds the best. I hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad......." So there you have it Hermione wanted to be in Gryffindor. Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:31:06 2004 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:31:06 -0000 Subject: Nameson the Trophies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" > wrote: > > Hi, > > I was browsing thorugh JKR's site and I was struck by the names > she > > has on the trophy sheilds in the fan site section. > > There are two trophies for Tom Riddle, one for James Potter and > one > > for James, one for Evans, one for Frank Longbottom, one for Sirius > > Black and one for Bellatrix Black and there is one that looks like > > it's for Weasley. > > James is supposed to have got a trophy for quidditch and Tom, for > > reporting on Hagrid. So what's the second trophy all about? > > And I'd sure be interested why Bellatrix got one too. I think she > > is one of the most important characters in the next two books. > > Bye > > Adi > > Ginger: > I realize the site isn't canon, but maybe if we are looking for canon > clues it counts? Elves? Apologies if not... > > I noticed those too. Canon has Tom for the Special Services award. > James may have gotten one as MVP for Quidditch (yes, that's totally > speculation as we haven't heard of it yet). > We know James, Lily, Percy and Tom were Head Boys/Girls. Frank > sounds the type, so that's a possibility. > > Sirius and Bellatrix...now there's the puzzler. We know Sirius > wasn't Head Boy, and we have no canon for him being a Quidditch star. > Bellatrix as Head Girl would be scary. But a possibility if Bellatrix is bright (surely) and interested in power... A possibility for Sirius could be involvement in one of those moments of defying Voldemort that James and Lily had before leaving school. I certainly don't see him as the Quidditch team type. Catherine McK From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 4 12:13:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 12:13:23 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? - Pensieve Recall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100008 Carol wrote: > > Carol, who wishes we could see a memory of the so-called Prank, which > I'm sure had nothing to do with uncanonical magical barriers or Peter > Pettigrew Potioncat: I'd like to see that too! And I've seen a quote that indicates that we'll either see more of or learn more about the background to it. But the speculation that there was a barrier or that Pettigrew was involved...just speculation, mind you....comes from my question "Where was the werewolf and why?" Although I may not have worded it that way at the time. Lupin says "If Snape had gotten inside the house he would have met a full grown werewolf..."(paraphrased) yet we're told Snape glimpsed the werewolf at the end of the tunnel. And I was wondering if the werewolf made so much noise, why would Snape have gone into the house? So the issues that sprung up were: 1. Was he in as much danger as they all thought he was? 2. Had the werewolf been freed from the shack? Potioncat From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Fri Jun 4 14:26:53 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:26:53 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Mooncalf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100010 Mooncalf A Filk by Gail B to the tune of _Moondance_ by Van Morrison Midi can be found here: http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/cecilian/557/pop_v.htm Use Moondance #2...the 14th Midi down in the first column...as it's the best one out of the bunch. What's a Mooncalf?: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/bestiary_h- m.html#mooncalf Well, what a wondrous beast is this Mooncalf With it's grey coat and curious eyes So hilarious that you will soon laugh At its flat feet of enormous size But with its legs, so spindly but nimble, It can do a complicated dance And in fields it leaves behind a symbol Evidence that it came there to prance I've heard a Calf's dancing is a sight to behold A herd of Calves swaying is graceful, so I'm told May we go to watch a Mooncalf in the moonlight? Say we can go and we'll soon laugh with such great delight Well, Scamander in his book is stating That he knows what motivates this beast He believes it's a prelude to mating That makes it act just like an artiste The Mooncalf leaves behind its safe burrow On nights that a full moon is rising To places isolated they go, then On hind legs they start doing their thing And if a Calf's dung is gathered ere the sunrise We're told that for farmers it's thought as a great prize And so although their dance ruins half their crop, that night Those plants enriched with a Mooncalf's silver plop grows right (Musical interlude where Mooncalves are dancing) (Repeat 1st stanza) We'll watch Mooncalves dancing in the moonlight On a full moon night La, la, la, la, oh, to say the least It's a magic beast May we go to watch a Mooncalf in the moonlight? -Gail B. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 4 14:34:39 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:34:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry Potter: Christian Rosycross in jeans In-Reply-To: <002201c4483a$7afed2c0$1502a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Message-ID: <20040604143439.78088.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100011 Hi All, Last week I told you I had finished an article about Harry Potter. It's a synthesis of my posts to this group from 2002-3 and is written from a Gnostic/Alchemical/Roscicrucian point of view. It makes a comparison with one of the 17th century manifestos of the Rosicrucians: The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross (note the word Christian), and examines whether there are similarites with other Rosicrucian writings. I want to thank the people who have been helpful about how to make my article available to everyone, especially Debbie Elf. The article is now situated in the groups files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/ I'll be pleased to send the article as an attachment privately to anyone who wishes. Comments are most welcome. Warm regards to each and everyone of you, Hans in Holland. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 4 14:41:26 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:41:26 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "textualsphinx2003" wrote: >>JKR's website has a 'fansite of the month' slot where she praises various HP fansites she likes. The funny thing is, both the ones she'd admired so far are moderated and/or created by people how identify as Slytherins. She confesses herself disturbed - indeed 'shocked' by this. She likes these site-moderators - even calls them 'my kind of people' for their thoroughness - but claims not to understand why they are interested in Slytherin House. This contradiction is presumably the result of there being two Slytherin Houses - the canon one as seen by Harry (and JKR?)and the fanon one as seen by fanfiction writers. At any rate, the fanon Slytherin House tends to be a less black-and- white entity than the books' - so far. I wonder of JKR will come to the conclusion I do - that if the people she admires and likes are Slytherin, maybe there's something good about Slytherin. Or will she dismiss it as mere 'misreading'of her intentions on the fans' part?<< Pippin: I'm not sure it's a question of JKR not understanding fans, or seeing only black-and-white versus seeing something good about Slytherin. Fan fiction and fanon often treat Slytherin House as not only redeemable but already redeemed or simply misunderstood. Racism gets downgraded (upgraded?) to pardonable ethnic pride, and Dark Arts fanatics are merely people who look good in black. It must be a little shocking to discover that the fans treat Slytherin redemption/misrepresentation as a fait accompli when, in canon, it has barely been broached as a possibility. And to have it done so easily! Characters who appear to be hard core in canon prove to be willing to change provided some understanding person (usually female ) takes an interest. Old misunderstandings are washed away in a tide of good feeling and never surface again. Enjoyable as all that is in fan fiction, I don't think JKR is going to be able to get away with it. Another point: in the books Harry sorts himself *out* of Slytherin because he doesn't want to be associated with ethnic snobbery and Dark Arts fanatics. I think JKR would like to be assured that fans who identify with Slytherin are not doing so because they secretly want to be racists or practice Dark Arts. But she probably hears from all kinds, and I'm sure she's heard from some people who do admire Slytherin for exactly the wrong reasons. Pippin From mariaalena at purdue.edu Fri Jun 4 14:54:22 2004 From: mariaalena at purdue.edu (Maria) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:54:22 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: An HPFGU Milestone! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100013 Greetings from Hexquarters! As you've probably noticed, today we hit the 100,000 posts mark! This is very exciting for all of us, and to mark this occasion, we'd like to present the very lucky David, who has posted the 100,000th message, with a personalized Medal for Magical Merit, which he can pick up at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/medal.jpg Here's to another 100,000 posts just as full of merry-making and in- depth discussions! With thanks for making HPFGU always interesting and exciting, OWL TREAT Our Wizarding Labourers: The Really Ecstatic Admin Team (This elf apologises for the double post. The excitement of the midnight POA viewing was too much for her!) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 4 15:33:28 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 15:33:28 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? - Pensieve Recall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100014 > Carol wrote: > > > > Carol, who wishes we could see a memory of the so-called Prank, which I'm sure had nothing to do with uncanonical magical barriers or Peter Pettigrew > > Potioncat: > I'd like to see that too! And I've seen a quote that indicates that > we'll either see more of or learn more about the background to it. But the speculation that there was a barrier or that Pettigrew was involved...just speculation, mind you....comes from my question "Where was the werewolf and why?" Although I may not have worded it that way at the time. > > Lupin says "If Snape had gotten inside the house he would have met a full grown werewolf..."(paraphrased) yet we're told Snape glimpsed the werewolf at the end of the tunnel. > > And I was wondering if the werewolf made so much noise, why would Snape have gone into the house? So the issues that sprung up were: > 1. Was he in as much danger as they all thought he was? > 2. Had the werewolf been freed from the shack? Pippin: And the question that sprang up in my mind was 3. Did Snape have a choice? Clearly Lupin's explanation, "Well, of course Snape tried it" leaves a lot to be desired. We can all invent ingenious explanations. But unless we're willing to believe Snape was another Bertha, there's no "of course," is there? Pippin who thinks the whole Bertha Jorkins penseive memory was put in the story precisely so Dumbledore could ask, " [W]hy did you have to follow him in the first place?" Forget Florence! From LadySawall at aol.com Fri Jun 4 15:45:28 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:45:28 EDT Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? Message-ID: <27.59d0f046.2df1f318@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100015 In a message dated 06/04/2004 10:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Carol writes: That's just a sample, of course. We know where ambition led Macbeth, and Claudius in "Hamlet," and Shakespeare's unhistorical Richard III, and a number of other figures in his. --- Jo Ann: Let's not forget Julius Caesar: "But Brutus says he was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man." Hmmm. Caesar. Ambitious. Killed by his best friend. Salazar. Ambitious. Disappeared, never seen again. His best friends said they argued and he just up and left. Really wish I could have a look into Godric Gryffindor's Pensieve... Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 08:26:32 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 01:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudders' Birthday--May or June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604082632.4894.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100016 > Ginger, after checking her books, responds: > > Actually, the only time we see the Big Dud's > birthday is in the first book, before they go > off to school. Harry and Dudley go to the zoo > that day, after which Harry earns his longest > time in the closet ever. Then, after he gets > out, Harry has his birthday. > > In GoF, the final task was on 24 June, which was > when finals were over, and then they had a week > to wait for the results, so I would assume that > the school year always runs through the end of > June. > > I would guess Dudley's birthday is late May or early > June, I spend a year studying at a Uni in England. Their graduation was in JULY and finals were spread out all through the month of June. I thought in the first book it mentions that Harry was grounded so long for the snake/birthday incident that he wasn't 'ungrounded' until after school was dismissed and it was summer (Book 1 not infront of me, books 3-5 are, though). Granted, I'm not sure about the 'lesser' grades (elementary and HS equiv.) and their scheduals, but they did seem start and stop later than US schools. Ta! bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From rmmiller at gci.net Fri Jun 4 08:35:45 2004 From: rmmiller at gci.net (rmmiller95) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:35:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100017 > heynorty wrote: > > When she is first introduced to Ron and Harry on the train, > > she rambles on about how Gryffindor is supposedly the "best" > > house and how she would like to be placed within it. > Earendil: > IIRC, I think what Hermione said on the train was that *Ravenclaw* > seemed to be the best House, but that Gryffindor seemed to be a > fine House as well and she wouldn't mind being sorted there. Rmmiller95: Sorry Earendil but you got it mixed, up the book says, "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Griffindor, it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledor himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad..." US Edition book 1 page 106 chapter 6 I hope this helps you some From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 13:47:25 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:47:25 -0000 Subject: FILK: Act Magically Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100018 In celebration of the film release of PoA, Sirius wants to sing something for us all.. Act Magically (to the tune of "Act Naturally" by Ringo Starr) SIRIUS They're gonna put me in a movie They're gonna make a big star out of me Gonna make a film about a man that's mad and angry And all I gotta do is act magically Well I bet you, I'm gonna be a big star Played by a muggle this much I can tell The movie's gonna make me a big star Cause Gary plays the part so well Well, I hope you come and see me in the movie And I'm sure, you can plainly see The biggest git that ever hit the big time And all I gotta do is act magically They'll make a film about an Azkaban escapee Avenge the murder of Harry's family I'll blow apart and Ron will need some nursing And all I gotta do is act magically (repeat chorus) From lisa at faistudio.com Fri Jun 4 13:54:50 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:54:50 -0000 Subject: The Signal- Red, then Green. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100019 Forgive me if this has been previously discussed at length- but in listening to OOtP again (8th time's a charm- I have a very long commute) I found myself wondering A. who sent the go ahead signal to the guard B. Why is the signal sender never mentioned- or acknowledged C. what were they checking to assure it was ok to take off. and D. where the signal was being sent from. Surely it couldn't be ol' Figgy the Squib, so it would have to be other Order members. But what were they looking for- one would be quick to say "deatheaters" but the marjority of death eaters are well know for their stealth and disguise (I'd like to think the filthy gits lurk in dumpsters in their free time). I'm babbling- but does anyone have a theory on the signals and where they possibly came from? "lisa graves" From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 14:02:12 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:02:12 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100020 Hi all. I've been doing lots of filks and lurking around this yahoo group but I have an idea. This might have come up in the past but I was wondering.... It would be neat if in book 6/7 that Harry and Draco wind up becoming friends. And better yet, Draco rebels against his father. He gets tired of the Slytherin prejudice BS and helps harry fight Voldemort. Is Draco that rotten to the core? After all in book 1 he got afraid when he saw Voldemort drinking the unicorn blood. Perhaps he didn't realized who or what that was. That brings in the "bad guy becomes good" plot that some stories have. But on the other hand, that sometimes can turn really really ugly (Smeagol in LoTR). I don't know, I guess I really really try to find good in even bad people. There's obviously no good in Voldemort, but is there? Why is he doing all this? To avenge his mother? Hmm... That means he has some kind of sentiment for her. Even Snape has a few redeeming qualities. Lucius... hmmm... now he's rotten to the core. He's never done any good in the canon.... -Jason LeBouef From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 4 15:04:28 2004 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:04:28 -0500 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry References: <1086360198.16485.95256.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004201c44a45$3be21e50$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 100021 > SOF: > > After his actions with regards to Occlumency, Snape clearly can't be > trusted to put his grudge aside for the greater good. Apparently, he > really only saved Harry from Quirrel so he could hate James' memory > in earnest. It's even more interesting that Snape continues to hate Harry, even after he begins Occlumency lessons with him. Clearly seeing that Harry's life before Hogwarts was anything but idyllic. And we are given insight into parallels between Harry and Snape when Harry catches glimpses of Snape's childhood: "...a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in corner...A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dar bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick--" OOP Apparently, rather than make Snape see something of himself in Harry, his knowledge of Harry's upbringing does little to deflect his hatred of Harry. Likewise, Harry's vision of Snape's memories does not soften his view of Snape, but serves to only intensify the hatred on both sides. It's interesting, because here was a perfect moment for Rowling to make Snape appear more human to both Harry and the reader. A tiny bit of sympathy from Snape for Harry and vice versa. Perhaps, a flash of insight for the reader into why Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely. Yet, our esteemed author does not do this. Wonder why? Curious, very curious!! "Danielle Arnt" From flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 15:37:47 2004 From: flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com (Samantha Thomas) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Leaving a Memory Message-ID: <20040604153747.40592.qmail@web41601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100022 Both times when Harry goes into the Pensieve, he is drawn back out by both DD and Snape. Did anyone else wonder how he was going to get out of there when he was first sitting in on the trial of the Death Eaters? I was concerned, because I imagined DD wouldn't be too pleased. But of course, he really didn't mind. Snape on the other hand... But if they hadn't come to take Harry out of their memory, would he be forced to stay there? In CoS, Riddle ends the memory and therefore I suppose Harry was expelled, his little silver strand had reached its end. Would that be what happened in both the instances of the end of the trial and the end of the day of school in Snape's memory? Or would Harry be trapped there for X amount of time, perhaps indefinitely? Just wondering, guys, and would like to hear your theories. ~~~~~~~~~ Samantha ~~~~~~~~ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KLMF at aol.com Fri Jun 4 17:26:10 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:26:10 EDT Subject: Suspicious of Aunt Marge.... Message-ID: <12f.4340fc8d.2df20ab2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100023 I'm sorry if this has been explored already, but that scene where Aunt Marge's glass explodes in her hand keeps coming back to mind.....POA, Am. Hardcover pg. 25-26. To paraphrase, she states that *the same thing happened just the other day when she was at Colonel Fubster's. Now, could Aunt Marge actually be a witch herself, or could Colonel Fubster be a wizard unbeknownst to her and she somehow pushed his buttons? Or is it really all just coincidence? Karen, who's local theater didn't have a midnite show :( From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:35:51 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 16:35:51 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100024 quigonginger wrote: >Actually, the only time we see the Big Dud's birthday is in the first >book, before they go off to school. Harry and Dudley go to the zoo >that day, after which Harry earns his longest time in the closet >ever. Then, after he gets out, Harry has his birthday. >In GoF, the final task was on 24 June, which was when finals were >over, and then they had a week to wait for the results, so I would >assume that the school year always runs through the end of June. >I would guess Dudley's birthday is late May or early June, Leah (from over the Pond): After Dudder's birthday debacle, Harry has a long session in the cupboard, lasting till the summer holidays. Assuming that before Hogwarts, Harry went to the local state primary school, he would have broken up in the second or third week in July-my daughter's school finishes on 22nd July this year. (Private schools like Hogwarts tend to be earlier so may well finish end of June). This gives quite a long period for Dudder's birthday to take place. Since the boys are not at school, the birthday must either be at a weekend or possibly during the half-term holiday. This is always at the end of May/beginning of June (this week in fact). That would give Harry six weeks in the cupboard, which is feasible and allow Dudders to have been born as the seventh (Celtic) month dies. Leah From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 17:17:15 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:17:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? References: Message-ID: <01ac01c44a57$c82ab9f0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100025 Jason wonders about Draco becoming good. I think that Draco, upon seeing the drinking of the unicorn blood, would certainly have been afraid but that is because he is basically preteen. If he were to become a good person it should have happened already. Littlekat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 17:41:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:41:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: <004201c44a45$3be21e50$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danielle Arnt" <> > It's even more interesting that Snape continues to hate Harry, even after he > begins Occlumency lessons with him. Clearly seeing that Harry's life before > Hogwarts was anything but idyllic. And we are given insight into parallels > between Harry and Snape when Harry catches glimpses of Snape's childhood: > "...a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small > dark-haired boy cried in corner...A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a > dar bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...A girl > was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick-- " OOP > > Apparently, rather than make Snape see something of himself in Harry, his > knowledge of Harry's upbringing does little to deflect his hatred of Harry. > Likewise, Harry's vision of Snape's memories does not soften his view of > Snape, but serves to only intensify the hatred on both sides. > > It's interesting, because here was a perfect moment for Rowling to make > Snape appear more human to both Harry and the reader. A tiny bit of > sympathy from Snape for Harry and vice versa. Perhaps, a flash of insight > for the reader into why Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely. Yet, our > esteemed author does not do this. Wonder why? Curious, very curious!! > > "Danielle Arnt" I would say that it is very discouraging that Snape continues to hate Harry even after Occlumency starts. Some posters argued that Rowling dropped hints that Snape started changing his POV. One of the example is when the word "softly" used in one of Snape replies (don't have a book right now, will look up a quote later) I think Amanda argued that. I don't think it is necessarily true though, after I reread PoA . In quite a few important dialogs the word softly is used as indicator of angry mood of the character. When Snape gives his "your head is not allowed in Hogsmead" tirade, he says it "softly". When Lupin says his "whether schoolboy grudge is worth putting innocent man back in Azkaban", he also speaks "softly" So, no I don't see the word "softly" as positive indicator of Snape's mood change. Please, Severus, please, get into your thick head "Harry is not James", "Harry is not James" :) Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 4 17:41:28 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:41:28 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > Hi all. I've been doing lots of filks and lurking around this yahoo group but I have an idea. This might have come up in the past but I was wondering.... > > It would be neat if in book 6/7 that Harry and Draco wind up becoming friends. And better yet, Draco rebels against his father. He gets tired of the Slytherin prejudice BS and helps harry fight Voldemort. Is Draco that rotten to the core? After all in book 1 he got afraid when he saw Voldemort drinking the unicorn blood. Perhaps he didn't realized who or what that was. << Pippin: I think in JKR's universe any Being who isn't spellbound can, at any time in their lives, choose right over easy, though that might be a very costly choice. But it's one thing to flee from Voldemort when he's sucking blood from a unicorn and another to do it when he's offering you something you really want, and can't see another way of getting. I don't believe JKR is so sentimental about young people that she thinks they can't choose to do evil. Indeed she seems to be saying that if young people refuse to grow up, accept the end of innocence and the beginning of responsibility, it is almost certain that they will do evil. At least that's what I get from all the badguys as babies metaphors. As far as we know, Draco has been brought up to think of ease as his birthright--I can't see him making any difficult choices if he thinks he has easy ones. Pippin From lisa at faistudio.com Fri Jun 4 15:53:29 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 15:53:29 -0000 Subject: Various Wizards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100028 Ok, so I admit it, I'm a sucker for all HP Merchandise (which at my ripe old age of 34 is difficult to pull off because I do not have children). Among the many purchases I've made includes a new release of Choclate frogs- they OF COURSE come with collectible wizard cards. There are 24 wizard cards to collect in this most recent release. ASide from the obvious names like Helga Hufflepuff, Bertie Bott and Rowena Ravenclaw- I do not recognize the other wizards listed. I was under the impression that JK had indeed given the license to Warner Bros. but they couldn't possibly just make up Wizard names could they? Here they are (and I could just be a scatterbrained muggle- that has forgotten them) Adalbert Waffling, Beaumont Marjoribanks, Bowman WRight, Cliodne, Cornelius Agrippa, Daisy Dodderidge, Derwent Shimpling, Devlin Whitehorn, Donaghan Tremlett, Gifford Ollerton, Gwenog JOnes, Hengist of Woodcroft, Lord Stoddard Withers, Morgan Le Fay, Newt Scamander, Quong Po, Sacharissa Tugwood, Uric the Oddball... Any ideas? I mean, I KNOW we haven't met all the wizards in the wizarding world- but who are these people? -Lisa (who secretly wishes to be a metamorphmagous.) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 17:48:48 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:48:48 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: <01ac01c44a57$c82ab9f0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Littlekat10" wrote: > Jason wonders about Draco becoming good. I think that Draco, upon seeing > the drinking of the unicorn blood, would certainly have been afraid but that > is because he is basically preteen. If he were to become a good person it > should have happened already. > > Littlekat Absolutely. IMO, Draco is that rotten. If JKR did not make him change during first five books it is too late now from literary point of view. Alla From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 4 17:48:43 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:48:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various Wizards References: Message-ID: <000f01c44a5d$fa43ae50$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 100030 Lisa wrote > Ok, so I admit it, I'm a sucker for all HP Merchandise (which at > my ripe old age of 34 is difficult to pull off because I do not have > children). Among the many purchases I've made includes a new > release of Choclate frogs- they OF COURSE come with > collectible wizard cards. There are 24 wizard cards to collect in > this most recent release. ASide from the obvious names like > Helga Hufflepuff, Bertie Bott and Rowena Ravenclaw- I do not > recognize the other wizards listed. I was under the impression > that JK had indeed given the license to Warner Bros. but they > couldn't possibly just make up Wizard names could they? Here > they are (and I could just be a scatterbrained muggle- that has > forgotten them) Adalbert Waffling, Beaumont Marjoribanks, > Bowman WRight, Cliodne, Cornelius Agrippa, Daisy > Dodderidge, Derwent Shimpling, Devlin Whitehorn, Donaghan > Tremlett, Gifford Ollerton, Gwenog JOnes, Hengist of Woodcroft, > Lord Stoddard Withers, Morgan Le Fay, Newt Scamander, Quong > Po, Sacharissa Tugwood, Uric the Oddball... > > Any ideas? I mean, I KNOW we haven't met all the wizards in the > wizarding world- but who are these people? > K Try the Lexicon - I bet most are listed. But ... just of the top of my head : Bowman Wright is something to do with quidditch (I think) Gwenog Jones is also quidditch I think, a player for the Harpies maybe> I think Hengist of Woodcroft and Morgan Le Fay are mentioned in the books in regards to being on Frog cards, Morgan obviously being lifted from Arthurian legend, Newt Scamander wrote Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them Uric the Oddball is mentioned in one of Binns terribly boring history classes I think. K From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 18:05:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:05:02 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: <01ac01c44a57$c82ab9f0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100031 "Littlekat10" wrote: > Jason wonders about Draco becoming good. I think that Draco, upon seeing > the drinking of the unicorn blood, would certainly have been afraid but that > is because he is basically preteen. If he were to become a good person it > should have happened already. > Susan (teilani) here: Why? From all the posts here on bad becoming good, redemption, compassion, choices, etc., I keep coming back to Pettigrew. Mousy or no, as a teen at school we readers are expected to assume that he was at least an ok guy. Then, regardless of his motivation, he joins LV. The Marauders' world goes to hell, and 12 years later, Harry shows Pettigrew a bit of compassion, which PP seems grateful for. Then when Remus becomes a werewolf, Pettigrew seizes his chance and runs back to LV. What I'm saying is, it seems PP didn't go bad until he was more or less an adult(21ish?). He chooses to sacrifice Lily and James instead of himself. He later chooses (how old is he now? 33?) to run back to LV. So, why would Draco had to have already made a _major_ choice by becoming friends with a half-blood Harry and/or m*^blood Hermione and/or poor pureblood Ron? Especially since drinking unicorn blood, while disgusting and having terrible repercussions, is hardly the worst thing LV has ever done, and particularly given the fact that his dad, and possibly his mom, are dedicated supporters of LV. I think it would take something really major to make Draco side with Harry on anything. I mean, Harry's responsible for sending Lucius to prison. Harry can fly better. Harry's not afraid of Draco in the least, and Draco's bullying power holds no weight with Harry. Even if Draco decided to join DA in book 6 or 7, I think there would be tons of animosity between the two of them, even though they are fighting on the same side. Sort of a Snape/Sirius thing. Susan (told ya, I can work Sirius in just about anywhere ;-) From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 18:06:12 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:06:12 -0000 Subject: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Ok, so I admit it, I'm a sucker for all HP Merchandise (which at > my ripe old age of 34 is difficult to pull off because I do not have > children). Among the many purchases I've made includes a new > release of Choclate frogs- they OF COURSE come with > collectible wizard cards. There are 24 wizard cards to collect in > this most recent release. ASide from the obvious names like > Helga Hufflepuff, Bertie Bott and Rowena Ravenclaw- I do not > recognize the other wizards listed. I was under the impression > that JK had indeed given the license to Warner Bros. but they > couldn't possibly just make up Wizard names could they? Here > they are (and I could just be a scatterbrained muggle- that has > forgotten them) Adalbert Waffling, Beaumont Marjoribanks, > Bowman WRight, Cliodne, Cornelius Agrippa, Daisy > Dodderidge, Derwent Shimpling, Devlin Whitehorn, Donaghan > Tremlett, Gifford Ollerton, Gwenog JOnes, Hengist of Woodcroft, > Lord Stoddard Withers, Morgan Le Fay, Newt Scamander, Quong > Po, Sacharissa Tugwood, Uric the Oddball... > > Any ideas? I mean, I KNOW we haven't met all the wizards in the > wizarding world- but who are these people? > > -Lisa (who secretly wishes to be a metamorphmagous.) Meri here: Well some of these mentioned wizards (Adalbert Waffling, Newt Scammander) are authors of some of Harry's textbooks. You can actually buy Scammander's book, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. Cliodna, Agrippa, Morgan Le Fay and Heingst of Woodcroft are on the chocolate frogs that Harry gets on his very first Hogwarts Express ride, Uric the Oddball is learned about in one deadly dull Hisory of Magic lesson or another, and as for the others, the Which Wizard list on the Harry Potter Lexicon should clear up whether or not we've heard of them in cannon before. Hope this helps. Meri - who was not at all ashamed to use her Derwent Shimpling card as a bookmark during her college government classes. From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 18:29:40 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:29:40 -0000 Subject: Which 7th Month? or Marked as Equal? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100033 Since my mention of November 1 as the beginning of the Celtic year seems to have set off a new wave of speculation about who else the prophecy might have referred to (i.e., who was born near the end of May), I feel I should ask another question. While it seems possible that Dudley Dursley may have been born at the end of May, would that mean that he is somehow the one spoken of in the prophecy? I would argue not, for the prophecy is not simply dependent on the child's birth date, but also on being marked by the Dark Lord as his equal. I don't think this has happened. I suppose it _could_ yet happen, though. I'll reiterate a comment I made earlier: I don't think there's any internal evidence that the WW uses a Celtic calendar (for day-to-day living). I think that the WW sees July as the seventh month, no matter what the Celts might have thought. As we try to interpret JKR's writings and predict where she might go with the story, I think looking for significant influences is fair game--and Celtic folklore is certainly a good source to mine. But I don't think we can extend that into the day-to-day world of the characters. Am I making any sense here? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 18:17:18 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Signal- Red, then Green. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604181718.19223.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100034 --- lisa graves wrote: > I found myself wondering A. who sent the go > ahead signal to the guard B. Why is the signal sender > never mentioned- or acknowledged C. what were they checking > to assure it was ok to take off and D. where the signal > was being sent from. But what were they looking for- > one would be quick to say "deatheaters" but the marjority > of death eaters are well know for their stealth and disguise I took the signals to be for two things: Death Eaters *and* Muggles. I figured there was some sort of way to make sure that Muggles were distracted and wouldn't notice a large group of people Flying away on broomsticks. Or someone was casting a spell on the area for that purpose. As for who sent the sparks - we know there are several other member of the Order that weren't with the Advance Guard. (And we know there was a rear guard as well, although we never find out much about who was in that.) My guess would be (pure speculation) Minerva, as she has the easiest time of getting around unnoticed. If anyone else saw the sparks and wanted to know who sent them, all she'd have to do is become a cat - the benefit being no loud crack of someone Apparating. We also know Dumbledore and Snape are in the Order, so they might have been on the look out as well. Again, pure speculation on my part. (Good question, BTW. Never thought about it.) bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 18:31:31 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604183131.19585.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100035 Lisa Graves wrote: > Adalbert Waffling, Beaumont Marjoribanks, Bowman Wright, > Cliodne, Cornelius Agrippa, Daisy Dodderidge, Derwent > Shimpling, Devlin Whitehorn, Donaghan Tremlett, Gifford > Ollerton, Gwenog Jones, Hengist of Woodcroft, Lord > Stoddard Withers, Morgan Le Fay, Newt Scamander, Quong > Po, Sacharissa Tugwood, Uric the Oddball... Gwenog Jones keeps coming up as the Wizard of the Month at JKR's website. "Gwenog Jones (1968 present) Captain and Beater of only all-female national Quidditch Team, the Holyhead Harpies" Morgan Le Fay might be more familiar to you as Morgana, from the King Aurther legends. Uric the Oddball ... I want to say is a goblin. But for some reason, I keep thinking there's a statue of him at Hogwarts. But he has been mentioned. ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 4 21:10:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:10:56 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > I'm not sure it's a question of JKR not understanding fans, or > seeing only black-and-white versus seeing something good > about Slytherin. Fan fiction and fanon often treat Slytherin House > as not only redeemable but already redeemed or simply > misunderstood. Racism gets downgraded (upgraded?) to > pardonable ethnic pride, and Dark Arts fanatics are merely > people who look good in black. > > It must be a little shocking to discover that the fans treat > Slytherin redemption/misrepresentation as a fait accompli when, > in canon, it has barely been broached as a possibility. And to > have it done so easily! Characters who appear to be hard core in > canon prove to be willing to change provided some > understanding person (usually female ) takes an interest. > Old misunderstandings are washed away in a tide of good > feeling and never surface again. Enjoyable as all that is in fan > fiction, I don't think JKR is going to be able to get away with it. > Obviously I can't speak for female fandom (though sometimes I despair of it) but as a hard-core, dyed in the wool, unrepentant connoisseur of mayhem and dirty deeds, I will be severely disappointed if any of this redemption and forgiveness stuff comes to pass. Why should it? No reason at all, so far as I can see. In fact, just the opposite. In five books there hasn't been *one* good Slytherin. And the way JKR responds to the inclinations of fandom suggests that she's not about to alter her view of them as anything other than a thoroughly bad lot. Splendid! The Slytherin/Pureblood mindset is not Voldy's doing; it was there long before he appeared on the scene. It will still be there when (if) he is defeated. Do you really think Bella or Malfoy would sign the pledge and start banging tambourines if Voldy vanished? Not likely. They (particularly Malfoy) might keep a low profile, but it wouldn't change what they *thought* - and that's what counts. It would be a replay of the events after the first Voldy war; claims of being Imperio!-ed, of being misunderstood, of being coerced - right up until another Dark Wizard appears. Then it all starts all over again. The apparently widespread liking for Slytherin despite the way they are depicted in canon is of course a product of human nature. Who can put their hand on their heart and swear that they have never wished that they could do something truly nasty and get away with it? Slytherin is the embodiment of a lot of personal fantasies. "Oh!" some will cry, "I'm not a racist, or an elitist or a whatever!" Never said you where, but for everyone there is a "they" out there that they would dearly love to grind into the dust, if only to visit upon "them" their just desserts and show "them" just how wrong-headed they've been. Be honest. JKR has pointed out, quite forcibly that Snape, Lucius, Draco are most definitely not the way they are portrayed in the films. That they have no likeable characteristics. Fine by me. I like ole Sevvy the way he is; miserable, misanthropic, bitter, vengeful. Lovely. This idea that if only you can understand someone then they become somehow nice or reformable is a bit naive IMO. Get to know them better and you're probably going to find further reasons for hating their guts, that tends to be my rule of thumb. Maybe there are a few fans who latch onto the redemption bit as a salve for the hankering they have for Slytherin. Perhaps they're not really all that bad after all; they can be redeemed and forgiven. Excuses, excuses. Much more satisfying to accept them for what they appear to be and then revel in the final climactic orgy of come-uppances and balancing of accounts. Kneasy From themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 19:59:09 2004 From: themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com (Mac) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:59:09 -0000 Subject: Which 7th Month? or Marked as Equal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100038 --- "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Since my mention of November 1 as the beginning of the Celtic year > I'll reiterate a comment I made earlier: I don't think there's any > internal evidence that the WW uses a Celtic calendar (for day-to- day > living). I think that the WW sees July as the seventh month, no > matter what the Celts might have thought. The Celts or any ancient race tracked the calendar agriculturaly. Therefore, Oct 31/Nov 1 is the beginning of the new year because agriculturaly everything had been harvested or killed and smoked, winter had set in and that was a time of rest from the summer work. This set the cycle for a new year. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and May Day are remenants of that Celtic race. Call it an genetic memory. As time marched on, we still celebrate the agricultural celebrations but we count time differently beginning with the formation of the Julian calendar in 45 BC. Therefore, the seventh month would be July as the prophecy was modernly produced by Trewlawney herself. Persephone From gullicksen at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 21:23:11 2004 From: gullicksen at yahoo.com (kbmum2000) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:23:11 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100039 There's an interview with Steve Kloves in today's Baltimore Sun, in which he discusses Remus and Lily. The url for the article is below, but here is the pertinent quote: Kloves says that when he first met Rowling, he told her he intuited that Lily "was quite special" and that James "was complicated." And in the bridge scene, Lupin "illuminates Harry about his mother - the most wonderful thing about her was that she was understanding toward Lupin at a time few were. She saw something special about him when others, including himself, couldn't." Kloves admits, "I think he was in love with her in many ways." Maybe this is one of the clues for books 6 and 7. http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/movies/bal-to.kloves04jun04,0,2181479.story?coll=bal-features-headlines Cindy From marcuscason at charter.net Fri Jun 4 23:16:26 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 23:16:26 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100040 Pippin stated: "Fan fiction and fanon often treat Slytherin House as not only redeemable but already redeemed or simply misunderstood. Racism gets downgraded (upgraded?) to pardonable ethnic pride, and Dark Arts fanatics are merely people who look good in black. Kyntor replies: I agree. I think the authors of fan fiction sometimes have problems understanding the concept of canon. Canon is not only plot, but it is character development as well. JKR has now spend five books developing some of her characters. Take Draco for instance, in her books, JKR has really not shown any redeeming qualities in this character, but fan fiction authors delights in romanticizing him. From marcuscason at charter.net Fri Jun 4 23:39:38 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 23:39:38 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100041 Jason states: "It would be neat if in book 6/7 that Harry and Draco wind up becoming friends. And better yet, Draco rebels against his father. He gets tired of the Slytherin prejudice BS and helps harry fight Voldemort. Is Draco that rotten to the core? After all in book 1 he got afraid when he saw Voldemort drinking the unicorn blood. Perhaps he didn't realized who or what that was." Kyntor replies: I guess it is possible for Draco to turn his life around and embrace the light (after all anything is possible), but I highly, highly doubt it. A misunderstood "evil" character turning good at the last moment and giving the hero just the boost he need to complete his heroic quest is a classic theme in fantasy literature. The only problem is that it is usually foreshadowed. JKR has not even hinted that Draco is anything other than bad. However, with Wormtail being a former friend of Harry's parents and Wormtail owing Harry a wizard's bond, his "turning" would be foreshadowed quite nicely. From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Jun 5 01:57:25 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:57:25 -0000 Subject: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: <000f01c44a5d$fa43ae50$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Lisa wrote > > > > Any ideas? I mean, I KNOW we haven't met all the wizards in the > > wizarding world- but who are these people? > > > K > > > Try the Lexicon - I bet most are listed. Yes, they are indeed. The characters on those cards are canon. There are well over a hundred of them with the new ones in the Prisoner of Azkaban game, (including Maladora Grymm, who is clearly the witch in Snow White). They were invented by Rowling. I have it from both Wizards of the Coast, who made the chocolate frog cards, and Electronic Arts, whe use electronic versions in their games, that Rowling was the source. This is now becoming even more evident as the cards are appearing on Rowling's website as the Wizard of the Month. You can read the entire list (minus the new ones) on the Lexicon here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/card_wizards.html The various wizards are included in the Which Wizard section of the Lexicon, which is where you can read information for some of them which isn't on the cards, such as all the details about Gwenog Jones. That section is here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards_list.html You will also find them on the timeline, which gives you something of a picture of the sweep of wizarding world history. Steve Lexicon From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 02:14:55 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 02:14:55 -0000 Subject: Houses was Re: RE:... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > snip snip snip<<<< > > Alla wrote previously: > > Oh, are we going back to my favourite little assumption > that "Snape > > was a Gryffindor." > > > > > Why Sirius phrased his little description of Snape's house > > association that strangely - "run with the gang of Slytherin"? > > > > Why woud not he say something to the effect - he was one of those > > (bad, horrible, whatever) Slytherins? > > > Potioncat: > I'll play along. I think the wording is "he was a part of a gang of > Slytherins." Sorry, do not have my book with me. It reminds me of > the phrase, in the same book I believe, that "Harry was reminded of > another Gryffindor player" He was comparing Ron to James and it was > Jo's way of saying James was in Gryffindor, but a lot of readers > argued (until Jo said so) that it could be Harry's error, assuming > James was in Gryffindor. > > So at any rate, I take the phrase to mean Snape was in Slytherin. > But I do see how you can read it as "he was part of that Slytherin > group, even though not a Slytherin." > > > How about this idea? Several times we are told that McGonagall is > wearing green robes. She managed to get Harry on the quidditch team > in year one. She doesn't give homework to Gryffindors before a > quidditch match. Doesn't she have some fine Slytherin qualities? I > wonder what House she was in! And wouldn't that make for some fun if > Gryffindor Snape, head of Slytherin is competing with Slytherin > McGonagall head of Gryffindor? > Potioncat who is trying to work out a way to see PoA before it goes > to DVD! > Potioncat LOL! Potioncat, I do think it could be very amusing and I think it is absolutely possible, because I don't remember any signs in canon (as we discussed previously, of course) that House Heads were from that specific house. I think that at least one surprise house revelation is bound to come in the next books and I think Snape is the best candidate. I mentioned earlier that I loved the theory that Sirius was in Slytherin too, but we all know what happened to that. Take into consideration that more and more often JKR mentions her dislike of Slyhterin house and I find it more and more unlikely that she will put one of the characters who is working to be redeemed in that House. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 02:21:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 02:21:20 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Obviously I can't speak for female fandom (though sometimes > I despair of it) but as a hard-core, dyed in the wool, unrepentant > connoisseur of mayhem and dirty deeds, I will be severely disappointed > if any of this redemption and forgiveness stuff comes to pass. Why > should it? No reason at all, so far as I can see. In fact, just the opposite. > In five books there hasn't been *one* good Slytherin. And the way JKR > responds to the inclinations of fandom suggests that she's not about > to alter her view of them as anything other than a thoroughly bad lot. > Splendid! > > The Slytherin/Pureblood mindset is not Voldy's doing; it was there long > before he appeared on the scene. It will still be there when (if) he is > defeated. Do you really think Bella or Malfoy would sign the pledge > and start banging tambourines if Voldy vanished? Not likely. They > (particularly Malfoy) might keep a low profile, but it wouldn't change > what they *thought* - and that's what counts. It would be a replay of > the events after the first Voldy war; claims of being Imperio!-ed, of > being misunderstood, of being coerced - right up until another > Dark Wizard appears. Then it all starts all over again. > > The apparently widespread liking for Slytherin despite the way they > are depicted in canon is of course a product of human nature. Who > can put their hand on their heart and swear that they have never > wished that they could do something truly nasty and get away with it? > Slytherin is the embodiment of a lot of personal fantasies. "Oh!" some > will cry, "I'm not a racist, or an elitist or a whatever!" Never said you > where, but for everyone there is a "they" out there that they would > dearly love to grind into the dust, if only to visit upon "them" their > just desserts and show "them" just how wrong-headed they've been. > Be honest. > > JKR has pointed out, quite forcibly that Snape, Lucius, Draco are most > definitely not the way they are portrayed in the films. That they have > no likeable characteristics. Fine by me. I like ole Sevvy the way he is; > miserable, misanthropic, bitter, vengeful. Lovely. This idea that if > only you can understand someone then they become somehow nice > or reformable is a bit naive IMO. Get to know them better and you're > probably going to find further reasons for hating their guts, that tends > to be my rule of thumb. > > Maybe there are a few fans who latch onto the redemption bit as > a salve for the hankering they have for Slytherin. Perhaps they're not > really all that bad after all; they can be redeemed and forgiven. > Excuses, excuses. > Much more satisfying to accept them for what they appear to be > and then revel in the final climactic orgy of come-uppances and > balancing of accounts. > > Kneasy LOL! Just a brief comment, Kneasy. I am NOT looking for redemption of the Slytherin house as it stands now. As it is now, it is quite disgusting as clique of pureblooded bigots, but I find (as I said earlier) that it is very primitive to mark eleven year olds every year as future death eaters. Even if we suppose that those kids come to school with the racist ideas in their heads, I take offence at the suggestion that those values cannot be unlearned when you are eleven. Putting them in the environment, which encourages such garbage, is idiotic at least. I know, we should blame Sorting Hat for that. :o) By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco are "lost causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting Snape aside as the lost cause. Alla From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Jun 5 02:32:04 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 02:32:04 -0000 Subject: Dudders' Birthday--May or June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Potioncat wrote: > | Yep, Dudders came to my mind. Didn't we work out he's a couple of > | months older than Harry? > > I would figure that Dudley's B-D is in June since Harry's home for the > Dudley's birthday is June 23. No, Rowling never said it specifically, but there are enough clues in the book to nail it down almost for certain. Here's how we can tell: Dudley's birthday is one month plus one week before Harry's. We know this because when Harry is given Dudley's second bedroom on July 24, he sees in it Dudley's "month-old" video camera. Dudley got that camera for his birthday, so now we know that Dudley's birthday is about a month before July 24. How do we know that it's July 24? Count the days backwards from Harry's birthday, which we know was Tuesday, July 31. Each day is described in the books as more and more letters arrive. So Dudley's birthday is approximately one month before July 24. In the year of the first book, Dudley's birthday was on a Saturday. Now if July 24 is a Tuesday, then the closest Saturday that qualifies is going to be June 23. We can't be absolutely certain only because we don't know if "month- old" is actually four weeks. If it was five weeks, Dudley's birthday could be June 16. If it's only three weeks, his birthday would be June 30. But the most logical conclusion is that Dudley's birthday is June 23. Steve the Lexicon From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 4 19:00:23 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040604190023.32802.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100046 > "Littlekat10" wrote: > > Jason wonders about Draco becoming good. If he were > > to become a good person it should have happened already. Susan (teilani), can work Sirius in just about anywhere wrote: > Why? From all the posts here on bad becoming good, redemption, > compassion, choices, etc., I keep coming back to Pettigrew. > Mousy or no, as a teen at school we readers are expected to > assume that he was at least an ok guy. Then, regardless of his > motivation, he joins LV. > > So, why would Draco had to have already made a > _major_ choice by becoming friends with a half-blood Harry and/or > m*^blood Hermione and/or poor pureblood Ron? Especially since > drinking unicorn blood, while disgusting and having terrible > repercussions, is hardly the worst thing LV has ever done, and > particularly given the fact that his dad, and possibly his mom, are > dedicated supporters of LV. And I don't blame your for working Sirius in, but if you work Sirius in, you should also work in Lupin. ;) A few comments, though. I'm not sure how much Draco would have 'seen' at his parents house. Probably more than a normal kid, but the DE's haven't been that active since LV's downfall. So he would have been about 1 ish. After that, I would wonder how much would DE stuff would have been done. He might have heard stories, but that's different than seeing something dead and a creature drinking it's blood for the first time. (Okay, I'm hoping it was Draco's first time seeing something drink blood. Any speculation on the Malfoy's being vampires?) In regards to Peter, we also don't know exactly WHEN he started working for LV. It very well could have been while he was still at Hogwarts, which was the impression I got. It would help if we knew at what age Lily and James got married - to see how long after Hogwarts they were married, and then had Harry. Are we ever given the present ages of Lupin or Sirius in the books? bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 22:32:21 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:32:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins References: Message-ID: <005a01c44a83$cd873d20$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100047 One of the things I've always liked about the characters in J.K.'s world is their humannes. Note, please, that I didn't say the word humanity yere. All of them are flawed in some way, and I think some almost revel in their ?flawedness.? We've all known people like that. My dad needed therapy in the worst way, but you couldn't have paid him a gazillion dollars to go for it. My mom has an unreasonable prejudice against someone I love, but will she let it go? Not in a squillion years. I think it's fine to work out the kinks in some characters, and fan fics are the perfect places to do it. Just remember that fan fic is one thing,the real stuf quite another. None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From firedancerflash at comcast.net Fri Jun 4 22:43:05 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:43:05 -0400 Subject: Dudley's birthday / Suspicious of Aunt Marge... References: Message-ID: <010d01c44a85$4d690310$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100049 All I ask is that Dudley's birthday not be May 31. I do not want to share my birthdate with the likes of him. I was always under the impression that Marge was one of those great, big almost sumo-wrestler types who don't know their strength sometimes. I really think those incidents had more to do with brute force than with wizardry. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 03:56:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 03:56:11 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Sirius age. Was: Re: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: <20040604190023.32802.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > It would help if we knew at what age Lily and James > got married - to see how long after Hogwarts they were > married, and then had Harry. Are we ever given the > present ages of Lupin or Sirius in the books? I believe that JKR mentioned somewhere that Snape is in his early thirties when series start and Snape supposedto be the same age. Alla From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 4 23:26:06 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:26:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Signal- Red, then Green. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100051 | From: lisa graves [mailto:lisa at faistudio.com] | Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 9:55 AM | | Forgive me if this has been previously discussed at length- but | in listening to OOtP again (8th time's a charm- I have a very long | commute) I found myself wondering A. who sent the go ahead | signal to the guard B. Why is the signal sender never mentioned- | or acknowledged C. what were they checking to assure it was ok | to take off. and D. where the signal was being sent from. [Lee]: Hmm--Isn't Daedalus a member of the order? And isn't it he who was mentioned as the one possibly sending up the shooting stars in Book 1? Perhaps the signaler was watching for muggle air traffic to ensure the brooms wouldn't be seen by muggle pilots. :-) Now, that would be an interesting UFO story!! :-) Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 4 23:51:58 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 19:51:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various Wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100052 | From: lisa graves [mailto:lisa at faistudio.com] | Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:53 AM | | Ok, so I admit it, I'm a sucker for all HP Merchandise (which at | my ripe old age of 34 is difficult to pull off because I do not have | children). [Lee]: So what? It's fun being a big kid! I Don' Wanna Grow Up...I'm 45 years young! :-) [Lisa says]: | Among the many purchases I've made includes a new | release of Chocolate frogs- they OF COURSE come with | collectible wizard cards. There are 24 wizard cards to collect in | this most recent release. [Lee]: OOOO--write me off list and tell me where one gets those,, Please?? I never turn down chocolate, and the cards would be cool. [Lisa continues]: | Aside from the obvious names like | Helga Hufflepuff, Bertie Bott and Rowena Ravenclaw- I do not | recognize the other wizards listed. I was under the impression | that JK had indeed given the license to Warner Bros. but they | couldn't possibly just make up Wizard names could they? Here | they are (and I could just be a scatterbrained muggle- that has | forgotten them) Adalbert Waffling, Beaumont Marjoribanks, | Bowman WRight, Cliodne, Cornelius Agrippa, Daisy | Dodderidge, Derwent Shimpling, Devlin Whitehorn, Donaghan | Tremlett, Gifford Ollerton, Gwenog JOnes, Hengist of Woodcroft, | Lord Stoddard Withers, Morgan Le Fay, Newt Scamander, Quong | Po, Sacharissa Tugwood, Uric the Oddball... [Lee]: Agrippa I remember from Ron's collection, Book 1, I think. Uric the Oddball was mentioned in the little book, "Fantastic Beasts" that JKR wrote dedicated to Comic Relief; the Author attribution of said book is Newt Scamander. It comes in a lovely box set with "Quidditch Through The Ages," and I don't remember the author attribution on that one. The rest of the names I can neither confirm nor deny, so I will leave it to the more expert in the group, or to the Lexicon. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From plstcfish at aol.com Sat Jun 5 01:42:42 2004 From: plstcfish at aol.com (plstcfish at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:42:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various Wizards Message-ID: <06EF2BC3.34B23DF1.027FB8C4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100053 Isn't Uric the Oddball the wizard mentioned in Harry's school readings on the witch trials, the one who let himself be caught a ridiculous number of times because he enjoyed the feeling of being burnt at the stake (which, of course, didn't hurt him as he used some charm to make the fire not burn). Ashley/ChibiSerenity From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jun 5 01:58:10 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:58:10 -0000 Subject: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100054 Kyntor replies: > I guess it is possible for Draco to turn his life around and > embrace the light (after all anything is possible), but I highly, > highly doubt it. A misunderstood "evil" character turning good at > the last moment and giving the hero just the boost he need to > complete his heroic quest is a classic theme in fantasy literature. > The only problem is that it is usually foreshadowed. JKR has not > even hinted that Draco is anything other than bad. > > However, with Wormtail being a former friend of Harry's parents and > Wormtail owing Harry a wizard's bond, his "turning" would be > foreshadowed quite nicely. Demetra: What if the foreshadowing is Draco being sort of the mirror opposite of Pettigrew? Pettigrew was the Gryffindor, one of the "good guys" who was tempted by the "bad guys" and did something terrible. Nobody expected him to turn out the way he did, no one thought he was capable of doing the things he did. The bravery of a Gryffindor, but used for evil not good. On the other hand is spoiled, arrogant braggart Draco. Who really is quite a wimp when push comes to shove. Yet he is the one everyone expects to support LV, become a DE and do bad deeds. But what if his cowardice keeps him from doing so and he ends up on the other side. Saving his own hide, like a Slytherin, yet helping the good guys while he's at it. Just a thought. Don't know if I believe it. On the other hand... {Spoiler Alert}... ... ... Draco sure came across as a snivelling wimp in the POA movie. More so than I ever gathered from the books. Demetra (still trying to recover from seeing PoA on the IMAX screen without Dramamine) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 03:12:31 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Twin's Bet Message-ID: <20040605031231.50824.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100055 I am rereading GoF and I was wondering if anyone was able to figure out how Fred and George were able to figure out that Ireland would win over Bulgaria but that Krum would get the snitch? Moonmyyst (who LOVED the knight bus in the movie!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 03:24:19 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 23:24:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Leaving a Memory In-Reply-To: <20040604153747.40592.qmail@web41601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100056 | From: Samantha Thomas [mailto:flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com] | Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:38 AM | Both times when Harry goes into the pensieve, he is drawn back | out by both DD and Snape. Did anyone else wonder how he was | going to get out of there when he was first sitting in on the | trial of the Death Eaters? But if they hadn't come to | take Harry out of their memory, would he be forced to stay there? | In CoS, Riddle ends the memory and therefore I suppose Harry was | expelled, his little silver strand had reached its end. Would | that be what happened in both the instances of the end of the | trial and the end of the day of school in Snape's memory? Or | would Harry be trapped there for X amount of time, perhaps | indefinitely? [Lee]: Interesting question...and the thought of being permanently entrapped in someone's memory is most unsettling! I would hope that once the strand has finished, the person would be released from the memory. But, as in Dd's memory (or memories), there were three trials, and obviously time had elapsed between each one. Now, is it that all were part of one strand of memory or that the strands were forming a pattern into which Harry had fallen? I postulate this because of what Dd said about using the Pensieve to help find patterns in events. So, assuming this is the work of the Pensieve and a pattern was being set, Harry, IMHO, would have followed the strands through the pattern if Dd hadn't pulled him out. Same can be said, possibly, for Snape. Do dat make sense? Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 01:11:59 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:11:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Asking A Favor / Question for JKR's next chat... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100057 Hello, :-) If any of you get on the next chat, I have a question for JKR: Is there any chance of granting permission/strongly encouraging audio productions of "Quidditch Through The Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them?" Since all the main books are in audio versions, it would be awfully neat to have those two made audibly available for those of us who can't read print. I'm just very fortunate that my husband enjoys the Potterverse, too, and we were able to share those two little books together. But having them available on audio would be really super. I'd sure buy them!! Cheers, Lee :-) (Apologizing for a possible/probable OT post.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Jun 5 04:31:27 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 04:31:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Sirius age. Was: Re: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > > It would help if we knew at what age Lily and James > > got married - to see how long after Hogwarts they were > > married, and then had Harry. Are we ever given the > > present ages of Lupin or Sirius in the books? The best clue from the books themselves is something Harry "thinks" to himself after seeing his father and the others taking their OWLs: He could abandon the plan and simply learn to live with the memory of what his father had done on a summer's day more than twenty years ago (OP chap 29, "Career Advice") Since James was the same age in the Pensieve scene as Harry is in book five, we know that James is "more than twenty years" older than his son. The trick, of course, is figuring out what "more than twenty" means in this case. It's safe to say that it doesn't mean just any number more than twenty, no matter how large. In fact, it's more than likely that the phrase means a number fairly close to twenty, or the phrase would be "almost thirty years." It's a reasonable guess to place that number between 21 and 25 years. We know that James, Sirius, and the others were in the same year, so we can say that they are now between 21 and 25 years older than Harry, (or would be, if they were alive). That means that they are between the ages of 36 and 40 right now. Since Rowling said in an interview just after the release of book four that Snape was "35 or 36," we can adjust that estimate toward the low end. With all that, we know that Remus, Peter, and Snape are all about 36 or 37 at this point in the story, about four or five years younger than Lucius and a bit more than twenty years older than Harry and his friends. FRom that we can also determine that James and Lily were about 21 or 22 when they had Harry. Steve The Lexicon From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Jun 5 04:43:45 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 04:43:45 -0000 Subject: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: <06EF2BC3.34B23DF1.027FB8C4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, plstcfish at a... wrote: > Isn't Uric the Oddball the wizard mentioned in Harry's school readings > on the witch trials, ... didn't hurt him as he used some charm to make > the fire not burn). Nope, that's Wendolin the Weird. She's on a famous wizard card too. The spell she usd is called the Flame Freezing Charm. Uric the Oddball is a very strange chap indeed. He was known for wearing a jellyfish for a hat. He also appears on a famous wizard card (number 18). Steve The Lexicon From hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 05:02:41 2004 From: hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com (hpfgu_list_elves) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 05:02:41 -0000 Subject: MESSAGE - Chicago Tribune interview request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100061 Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for the terrific responses! The article is up: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/arts/chi- 040603dpallages,1,2923951.story Turned out quite nicely! A mention of our group, a quote from one of our list members, the lovely Anandini, and another from the lovely Sheryll, Birthday Elf and organizer of the upcoming fandom event Convention Alley (July 30 - Aug 1) in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada: http://www.conventionalley.org/ Thanks again, everyone! Kelley Elf, for the List Admin Team From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 05:42:29 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 05:42:29 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100062 I hope discussing the potential clues in the POA film is analogous to discussing potential clues in interviews and the like because I'm about to do it and I don't like being smacked upside the head. Needless to say there are spoilers if you haven't seen the film yet. JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? So what do we have in the film that is different from the book that seems significant? I don't know how significant it seems, but they had Pavarti Patil face the Boggart and turn into a snake. Could it be a Slytherin snake or some residual fear of the Basilisk? The thing that is probably going to jump out at most people is the conversation between Lupin and Harry on the bridge about which there has already been some discussion. I think the key element there is not so much that Lupin liked Lily, though I believe that they would have been friends even if she hadn't married his best friend. I think the interesting thing is the bit about her recognizing the beauty in someone even when the someone didn't recognize it themselves. The scene goes from that sentence to Harry inheriting a talent for troublemaking, to Lupin saying that Harry is more like his parents than he knows, and he'll find that out soon. It seems to me that Lupin believes that Harry shares Lily's ability to see the beauty in people/things even when they don't themselves. I take beauty to be a somewhat vague expression of overall worth and I am reminded of two incidents in particular. When Harry and Dobby first meet, Harry is a tad confused and in a bit of a prickly situation, but he's polite to Dobby asking him to sit down. Also, I am reminded of the bit back in book 1 where Neville hops in after being petrified (frozen, not scared). Harry tosses Neville his last chocolate frog and says that Neville is worth 12 of Malfoy. Applying that to potential future events, I can see where Harry might make a crucial decision to accept someone (a Slytherin or perhaps Snape) whose overtures would otherwise be rejected. Other than that particular scene, I think Lily is more prominent in this film than in the novels. I note that the Lupin/Harry scene on the bridge is a discussion of Lily where in the novel it's more a discussion of James. Of course, I am equating the film scene to the novel scene where Harry describes hearing his father's voice for the first time, and that may just be wrong of me. As for what this could indicate if it is a clue, it would have to mean that Lily is pretty important which is something I think we already knew so I don't think there's much there. Peter Pettigrew on the Marauders Map. I was a bit irked by this quite frankly, but I'm not sure how it could be a clue to something in the later books. Draco and the gang hanging around trying to get a look at the execution of Buckbeak. Now this is something that I think has potential. He wants to see something get killed and it's only a short step from there to wanting to see someone get killed, and it's only a short step from there to killing someone. There were a lot of standing stones around, and in particular right out the castle door on the way to Hagrid's, there's a roughly circular Stonehengish grouping of standing stones. What this might be a clue about is anyone's guess. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 05:48:30 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 05:48:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: My Dark Magical Dream Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100063 My Dark Magical Dream To the tune of The American Dream, from the musical Miss Saigon Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat391.html Dedicated to Jason LeBouef THE SCENE: Dreamland ? in a Canonically unrecorded dream of Year Five, HARRY'S ESE!Alter-ego strolls down the corridors of the D.O.M. A ragtime-style tune plays, tempo di sleaze, as the recitative begins ESE!HARRY My father was an Animagus from Godric's He ran around with a rather odd clique My mother wed my father, maybe she was forced But an anti-Voldy policy they both endorsed Losing your Mum to a curse Can make your soul turn perverse Yet, there are things even worse . Then I was changed to You-Know-Who Such fun not to be named ? Who knew? Are you surprised I'm Voldy's twin? I thought from the first he was kin When as a serpent I slid I gave free reign to my Id Now I'm one mean teenaged kid I'm fed up with crime-free hassles Being good gains no status or sway Let me conquer Hogwarts castle Grant submission - then, out of my way! I'll take my ease with the DEs They're the ones who will obey What's there behind the first door? My dark magical dream That which is worth killing for My dark magical dream Young and na?ve, I'd deplore My dark magical dream But now I'll launch total war And I'll start my regime Born for betrayal Like good ol' Wormtail Without the least paper trail My dark magical dream Those who dare think they'll oppose me Soon they'll meet the brand-new Boy Who Can Kill Evil powers, come enclose me! I'll have my serpent and my own black quill Hey, you Dursleys ? you'll go firstly Your Muggle blood I shall spill See me proceed through the door My dark magical dream This place I long to explore My dark magical dream Crystals from ceiling to floor My dark magical dream Secrets concealed no more My dark magical dream How I rejoice to be here My dark magical dream Row after row of these spheres My dark magical dream Revel in hatred and fear My dark magical dream Vict'ry draws more and more near My dark magical dream Wands causing pain! Start my campaign! Let every foe now be slain My dark magical dream! (The Veil parts to reveal a large CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS, with top hats and canes, for the 100% singing 100% dancing 100% cursing finale) HARRY & CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS Sing we of sinister lore In dark magical dreams D-O-M on the ninth floor In dark magical dreams Prophecies once held in store In dark magical dreams Now shall be bought to the fore In dark magical dreams That which good wizards abhor In dark magical dreams Begone, Snape and Dumbledore In dark magical dreams HARRY See Potter soar As Voldemort And I will live evermore! ALL My/His dark magical dream! (Whistling, HARRY strolls down Row 97, plucks a sphere from off the shelf, and casually tosses it to Lucius Malfoy, who catches it just as the final chord hits ? cut to HARRY'S room in Gryffindor, as he awakens in a cold sweat) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jun 5 05:56:16 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:56:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudders' Birthday--May or June Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100064 In a message dated 06/03/2004 9:02:07 PM Central Daylight Time, n2fgc at arrl.net writes: > I would figure that Dudley's B-D is in June since Harry's home for the > summer and has to endure that wretched day. Perhaps it's at the very > beginning of June, but I can't see that Hogwarts lets out in may. After > all, there are the Easter holidays, then finals, etc., so that would shoot > down May pretty much right there. I think that Hogwarts lets out in late June. I don't have GOF nearby but I seem to recall that the 3rd task took place around June 20th. So I've venture a guess that Dudley's b-day is late June or the very beginning of July. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 5 06:09:16 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 02:09:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Twin's Bet References: <20040605031231.50824.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004d01c44ac3$a2fb1aa0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100065 I am rereading GoF and I was wondering if anyone was able to figure out how Fred and George were able to figure out that Ireland would win over Bulgaria but that Krum would get the snitch? Moonmyyst (who LOVED the knight bus in the movie!!) Personally I never assumed there was magic involved. While I think the twins would cheat to get the money, from the subsequent Quidditch scene it appears to be a pretty established fact that the Irish team is better as a whole, but Krum is better as a seeker than Lynch. So their bet as an educated guess is a very good probability to anyone who knows the teams. Personally, I see the twins as people whose magical or unnatural talents include extraordinary luck. Wouldn't surprise me if they can win almost any gambling game without having to cheat. Alina. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 5 06:17:41 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 06:17:41 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: <20040605031231.50824.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > I am rereading GoF and I was wondering if anyone was able to figure out how Fred and George were able to figure out that Ireland would win over Bulgaria but that Krum would get the snitch? > > > > Moonmyyst (who LOVED the knight bus in the movie!!) I have wondered about this too, are there any other instances of them predicting anything? Is there a connection with Ron's "joke" predictions? Are the Weasley's a bunch of seers? My guess is that they might have a trick up their sleeve that may be revealed later. I've noticed that along with death, time is a major theme in the books, and I predict that the final outcome will have something to do with both themes. imamommy From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jun 5 06:24:13 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 02:24:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <13.2cfe3a8d.2df2c10d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100067 In a message dated 6/5/2004 1:57:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gregory_lynn at yahoo.com writes: > I hope discussing the potential clues in the POA film is analogous to > discussing potential clues in interviews and the like because I'm > about to do it and I don't like being smacked upside the head. > > Needless to say there are spoilers if you haven't seen the film yet. > > JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to > think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That > would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because > otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? > > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book that > seems significant? Cassie: Maybe it's all to do with that jab Sirius made to Severus about his chemistry set. Clearly Severus Snape is really muggle born. :P [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 04:54:43 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:54:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: <06EF2BC3.34B23DF1.027FB8C4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100068 | From: plstcfish at aol.com | Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 21:43 PM | | Isn't Uric the Oddball the wizard mentioned in Harry's school readings | on the witch trials, the one who let himself be caught a ridiculous | number of times because he enjoyed the feeling of being burnt at the | stake (which, of course, didn't hurt him as he used some charm to make | the fire not burn). I thought that was Wendolyn The Weird...not sure if I spelled that correctly. But, guess I'll be perusing the Lexicon tomorrow and getting all my wizards straight. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jeffreyjdoris at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 04:18:44 2004 From: jeffreyjdoris at hotmail.com (jeffrey_doris) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 04:18:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: <004201c44a45$3be21e50$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100069 I see Snape's "Hatred for Harry" as somewhat tongue in cheek. I think he hates Harry the way Man City fans hate Man United fans, and certainly not the way the French hate the Nazis. "jeffrey_doris" From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 06:51:39 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 06:51:39 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (spoilers/clues) In-Reply-To: <13.2cfe3a8d.2df2c10d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100070 gregory_lynn wrote: > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book > that seems significant? I was amazed that Ron had a nightmare where spiders command him to tap dance and he doesn't want to. Is he really a seer, forseeing upcoming Moody's class?? (Or will he get imperio'd in the future?? On this note, someone else on the board wondered about when in Divination, Ron tells Harry that Harry will suffer but be happy about it...) I also found it deja vu when Snape says of Sirius and Remus, 'bickering like an old married couple' which was funny since people on this board said that of them in OOTP. Ha! There were some effective embellishments of what happens with the time turner- no idea if any of those will come up again on a time travel. But otherwise, let me think (and see the film again, and perhaps reread, to see). I was impressed at most of the streamlining. aj From yswahl at stis.net Sat Jun 5 07:29:42 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 07:29:42 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <13.2cfe3a8d.2df2c10d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100071 gregory_lynn Needless to say there are spoilers if you haven't seen the film yet. JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? samnanya The scene in POA that stood out to me more than any other was the following: Hogsmeade, where Harry is eavesdropping on wizard conver- -sation regarding Sirius. Harry finds out that Sirius was his grandfather and runs out into the snow in his invisibility cloak. You can clearly hear him crying and sobbing as he runs. Hermione chases after him, catches up to him, and removes his cloak. As Harry turns to face her and express his pain, his face is DRY, particularly his eyes, as if he was incapable of shedding a tear. This scene was one of the few in POA that was actualy shot in close-up. For some reason a lot of the film was done in medium to long shot, and the scene was filmed this way to make sure that we are paying attention to Harry, and Harry alone. I have commented here before about Harry's inability to shed tears throughout the series, and the movie empahsizes this. JKR has always talked about eyes being significant and this scene may provide yet another clue how this is indeed so. From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 07:07:04 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 07:07:04 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100072 Kneasy wrote: > I will be severely disappointed if any of this redemption and > forgiveness stuff comes to pass. Why should it? No reason at all, > so far as I can see. In fact, just the opposite. > In five books there hasn't been *one* good Slytherin. And the way > JKR responds to the inclinations of fandom suggests that she's not > about to alter her view of them as anything other than a thoroughly > bad lot. As I was explaining to a friend tonight, this makes yet more sense now. The friend asked what the mudblood/pureblood standards were by Slytherin and I mentioned some of the recent postings on this board. Then I went on to say that, really, if one considers that anything else in the wizard's ancestry than just pureblood human wizards makes the offspring not 100% pureblood, this is limiting indeed: just as the WW moves forward (we hope- well, at least under Dumbledore) to greater unity by working together with part-veelas such as Fleur, part-giants such as Hagrid, part-muggles, foreign land wizards, and trying to work better with centaurs, goblins, giants, elves and improve their lot and representation- uniting as the Sorting Hat seems to hope, and symbolized by the destruction of the wizard- idolized MOM fountain- there is no room for pureblood-human-only Slytherin snobbishness. (Was that one sentence? >g>) It may very well be that some Slytherin aspect will be subsumed in Book 7 to symbolize coagulation as in alchemy, but the continuation of the House of Slytherin IF based on pureblood bigotry is a dying cause and diminishing in numbers. (If the sorting were based instead on extrovert/introvert heart/head ruling, as some wonder, then maybe it could stay... but that's not necessarily canon.) aj From bamf505 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 04:38:19 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 21:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Signal- Red, then Green. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040605043819.38663.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100073 > [Lee]: > Hmm--Isn't Daedalus a member of the order? And isn't > it he who was mentioned as the one possibly sending > up the shooting stars in Book 1? I think Deadalus was with them in the Advanced Guard. He mentions having already met Harry. (And I think he was in violet robes... I just reread the chapter yesterday, you'd think I could remember better...) ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From bamf505 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 04:28:15 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 21:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lupin's and Sirius' ages. Was: Re: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040605042815.85037.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100074 > Alla: > I believe that JKR mentioned somewhere that Snape is > in his early thirties when series start and Snape supposed > to be the same age. If we take Snape to be 33 at the start of Book 1, and Harry is 11, that would make James and Lily and the rest about 22 when LV attacked Harry. I would guess (pure speculation on my part) they had been married for about a year, if not more. So that has them married about age 20 or 21, probably engaged for a year, so - engaged at 19 or 20. Is it possible, that Wormtail had already been in contact at Hogwarts? He would have had a few years outside Hogwarts to be 'tapped' or does it make more sense for it to have happened during his senior year? What does everyone else think? Do we have anything to guide us from the books? (I can't even remember if he's mentioned in the photos from Lily and James' wedding...) bamf! (Side note: I've been searching on-line, but I had JKR's webpage up, but not active. There was a phone call, and Peeves did a fly-by and knocked over the pencil holder...) ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 09:02:50 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 09:02:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100075 > > heynorty wrote: > > > When she is first introduced to Ron and Harry on the train, > > > she rambles on about how Gryffindor is supposedly the "best" > > > house and how she would like to be placed within it. > > > Earendil: > > IIRC, I think what Hermione said on the train was that *Ravenclaw* > > seemed to be the best House, but that Gryffindor seemed to be a > > fine House as well and she wouldn't mind being sorted there. > Rmmiller95: > > Sorry Earendil but you got it mixed, up the book says, > > "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking > around, and I hope I'm in Griffindor, it sounds by far the best; I > hear Dumbledor himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't > be too bad..." > US Edition book 1 page 106 chapter 6 Earendil again: Thanks to both you and UdderPD for correcting my mistake and putting me back on the right tracks. Now I'll have to wonder why I was so convinced Hermione wanted to be in Ravenclaw... From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Jun 5 09:11:20 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 09:11:20 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100076 SPOILERS * SPOILERS * SPOILERS * SPOILERS * > samnanya wrote: > The scene in POA that stood out to me more than any other > was the following: > Hogsmeade, where Harry is eavesdropping on wizard conver- > -sation regarding Sirius. > Harry finds out that Sirius was his grandfather and > runs out into the snow in his invisibility cloak. > You can clearly hear him crying and sobbing as he runs. > Hermione chases after him, catches up to him, and removes > his cloak. > As Harry turns to face her and express his pain, his face > is DRY, particularly his eyes, as if he was incapable of > shedding a tear. > This scene was one of the few in POA that was actualy shot > in close-up. For some reason a lot of the film was done in > medium to long shot, and the scene was filmed this way to > make sure that we are paying attention to Harry, and Harry > alone. > I have commented here before about Harry's inability to shed > tears throughout the series, and the movie empahsizes this. > JKR has always talked about eyes being significant and this > scene may provide yet another clue how this is indeed so. -------- Reread the following pages: *OotP, Page 856 (US) *PS, Page 299 (US) Harry has cried tears before. Arya From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 09:12:37 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 09:12:37 -0000 Subject: Hagrid seeing Thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100077 There's a question I've been wondering about for a little while now. I didn't even try to use the archive search, I know I'm likely to spend hours on it (my dial-up modem will be the death of me) with no guarantee to find anything relevant. Anyway, here we go: We know from OotP that Hagrid can see Thestrals. So whose death did he see? His father's maybe? Any other suggestion, anyone? Or can Hagrid see Thestrals because he's a half Giant? BTW, do we know if magical beasts (or even non magical ones) can see Thestrals? Earendil. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 5 09:21:11 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 09:21:11 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco are "lost > causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting Snape aside > as the lost cause. > True; indeed she went further and hinted that Snape may just possibly do something out of character that might be seen as redemptive. This is worrying. Snape doing something nice? How dare he! Though I have in the past speculated along these lines myself but with subtleties - Harry gets himself into trouble (again) and poor old Sevvy is the one to get him out of it, making the supreme sacrifice in the process. It's the 'why' that's important. Not because he's changed his mind about Harry being a stubborn, impulsive, rash little snot, but because Harry is the best bet for Snape's dearest wish to be fulfilled, the destruction of Voldy. He, like DD sees young Potter as Weapon!Harry and the instrument of his revenge. Thus Snape would save Harry (possibly a redemptive act) but for typically Snape reasons - so that Harry can wreak vengence for what Voldy did to Snape. I'll just have to hope that JKR sees Snape the same way that I do. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jun 5 11:29:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:29:53 -0000 Subject: Houses was Re: RE:... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100079 Snipping first section. Alla wrote: > I think that at least one surprise house revelation is bound to come > in the next books and I think Snape is the best candidate. I > mentioned earlier that I loved the theory that Sirius was in > Slytherin too, but we all know what happened to that. > > Take into consideration that more and more often JKR mentions her > dislike of Slyhterin house and I find it more and more unlikely that > she will put one of the characters who is working to be redeemed in > that House. x Potioncat: I'm glad you liked my little joke (snipped here) I'll get a few flames, no doubt! I'm now in a "I can't wait to see what she does with Slytherin" mode. I can buy the idea that out of a group who value ambition too highly, you'd get some wizards who go bad. And, add to that the importance of Pureblood, and you have a double whammy. But I'm not comfortable with the idea that every 11 year old who gets sorted into that House will go bad. Or that everyone values his/her Pureblood so strongly. Lots of fun speculating until then! Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jun 5 12:14:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:14:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's Hatred for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100080 wrote: > I see Snape's "Hatred for Harry" as somewhat tongue in cheek. I > think he hates Harry the way Man City fans hate Man United fans, and > certainly not the way the French hate the Nazis. > x Potioncat: Yeah, I think there is something to that dislike that we haven't seen yet. Not anything that's going to lead to a group hug or anything but some little twist or surprise. Potioncat From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 12:46:31 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 05:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (spoilers/clues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040605124631.43884.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100081 gregory_lynn wrote: > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book > that seems significant? akh replies: I was struck by the choice of "happy memory" in the boggart scene: Harry decides to imagine talking with his parents as his happiest thought, and it's the one that works for his patronus. Since we have been introduced to the idea that Harry might have access to his parents through the Veil in the MOM, this could foretell a scenario in 6 or 7. akh, who is destined to see the movie at least three more times --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 13:28:13 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 07:28:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003001c44b00$f6f808b0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100082 Demetra: What if the foreshadowing is Draco being sort of the mirror opposite of Pettigrew? Pettigrew was the Gryffindor, one of the "good guys" who was tempted by the "bad guys" and did something terrible. Nobody expected him to turn out the way he did, no one thought he was capable of doing the things he did. The bravery of a Gryffindor, but used for evil not good. On the other hand is spoiled, arrogant braggart Draco. Who really is quite a wimp when push comes to shove. Yet he is the one everyone expects to support LV, become a DE and do bad deeds. But what if his cowardice keeps him from doing so and he ends up on the other side. Saving his own hide, like a Slytherin, yet helping the good guys while he's at it. Just a thought. Don't know if I believe it. On the other hand... Sherry I wonder about Peter being in Gryffindor. Is there anything in the books that says specifically that he was a Gryffindor? Every time we see him he is cowering, not acting brave at all. Also, I've always had the impression of him, that he was sort of a tag-along, a follower, who sort of wormed his way into the group of James/Sirius/Lupin. Almost like his generation's version of Colin Creevey, who is always trying to be around Harry. Of course, Peter seems to be the same age as the other marauders, and Creevey is a year younger, but still, ... maybe. Anyway, that's how I've always thought of Peter, a hanger-on, trying to get in good with the popular and powerful in his class. On the other hand, hasn't JKR always said that Draco is just evil and won't have a change of heart? Maybe it's possible that in the future, trying to save his own neck could cause him to do something to help the good guys, but I don't see it happening as an active choice or decision to change his ways. Sherry From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 13:33:41 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 07:33:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Asking A Favor / Question for JKR's next chat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c44b01$b7f5db50$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100083 Lee wrote: Hello, :-) If any of you get on the next chat, I have a question for JKR: Is there any chance of granting permission/strongly encouraging audio productions of "Quidditch Through The Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them?" Since all the main books are in audio versions, it would be awfully neat to have those two made audibly available for those of us who can't read print. sherry Those two books are available in Braille, if you read Braille. I hope this is considered on topic, because it is about the books, just in a different format. If you read Braille, write me off list, and I'll tell you how to find them. I'll put my email address below my name at the end of this message. Speaking of books ... I'd like to have JKR write Hogwarts, a History. I'd really like to read that, after hearing it discussed in the series all this time! sigh. Well, chats aren't accessible for those of us using screen reading software, so maybe, I'll find another way to ask her someday. Sherry sherriola at earthlink.net From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 13:34:08 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:34:08 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > SPOILERS > * > SPOILERS > * > SPOILERS > * > SPOILERS > * > > samnanya wrote: > > The scene in POA that stood out to me more than any other > > was the following: > > Hogsmeade, where Harry is eavesdropping on wizard conver- > > -sation regarding Sirius. > > Harry finds out that Sirius was his grandfather and > > runs out into the snow in his invisibility cloak. > > You can clearly hear him crying and sobbing as he runs. > > Hermione chases after him, catches up to him, and removes > > his cloak. > > As Harry turns to face her and express his pain, his face > > is DRY, particularly his eyes, as if he was incapable of > > shedding a tear. > > This scene was one of the few in POA that was actualy shot > > in close-up. For some reason a lot of the film was done in > > medium to long shot, and the scene was filmed this way to > > make sure that we are paying attention to Harry, and Harry > > alone. > > I have commented here before about Harry's inability to shed > > tears throughout the series, and the movie empahsizes this. > > JKR has always talked about eyes being significant and this > > scene may provide yet another clue how this is indeed so. > > -------- > Reread the following pages: > *OotP, Page 856 (US) > *PS, Page 299 (US) > > Harry has cried tears before. > > Arya Harry also cries in one of the boggart scenes in PoA when Lupin is teaching Harry the Patronus charm and and telling him about JAmes and Lily. I believe he disguises it by bending down to tie his shoelaces and wipes his face on his robes. Harry also nearly cries in the hospital wing after Cedric is killed and LV is reborn in GoF. I wasn't so much bothered by the tears as by the fact that he cired in front of Ron, which we know from GoF that he won't do. Meri From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 14:04:52 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:04:52 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (spoilers/clues) In-Reply-To: <20040605124631.43884.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100085 vmonte writes: There were several scenes that I really thought were excellent in the movie. The aunt Marge scene was brilliantly directed. The Night bus scene was very good, although I did not like that Harry did not introduce himself as Neville. I also liked the first night back at Hogwarts scene, where Ron and crew were making animal noises (Ron as a lion? ---hmmm). Hermione's role was very different in the book than in the this film, why I wonder? She really interferes with time in a way she did not in the book. She throws stones at herself and Harry, she cries out to the wolf... It seems to me that the characters can interfere and change the time- line. I believe that it is not fixed as some have stated. Why did they change what happened in Trelawny's class? In the movie Trelawny tells Hermione that she has the soul of an old maid. Where did that come from? And why say that in particular? Is it foreshadowing Ron's death (if you believe in the Hermione/Ron ship)? Also if Ron=DD, does Hermione=MM? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I really did not like how Snape's role was chopped up. I think they really should have left his rant in at the end of PoA. (Snape really does move strangely in the movie -- there is something Bella Lagosi about it.) vmonte From yswahl at stis.net Sat Jun 5 14:09:36 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:09:36 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100086 meriaugust > > > samnanya wrote: > > > As Harry turns to face her and express his pain, his face > > > is DRY, particularly his eyes, as if he was incapable of > > > shedding a tear. > > > This scene was one of the few in POA that was actualy shot > > > in close-up. For some reason a lot of the film was done in > > > medium to long shot, and the scene was filmed this way to > > > make sure that we are paying attention to Harry, and Harry > > > alone. > > > I have commented here before about Harry's inability to shed > > > tears throughout the series, and the movie empahsizes this. > > > JKR has always talked about eyes being significant and this > > > scene may provide yet another clue how this is indeed so. > > > > -------- > > Reread the following pages: > > *OotP, Page 856 (US) > > *PS, Page 299 (US) > > > > Harry has cried tears before. > > > > Arya > > Harry also cries in one of the boggart scenes in PoA when Lupin is > teaching Harry the Patronus charm and and telling him about JAmes > and Lily. I believe he disguises it by bending down to tie his > shoelaces and wipes his face on his robes. [Is that proof of crying ?] Harry also nearly cries in the hospital wing after Cedric is killed and LV is reborn in GoF. > I wasn't so much bothered by the tears as by the fact that he cired > in front of Ron, which we know from GoF that he won't do. > Meri Samnanya I get REALLY REALLY pissed [as opposed to shedding a tear} when people here infer that I can't read while it is obvious that they havent carefully read what I said and worse yet, quote canon to support their argument when the canon in fact supports my own... ----------------------------------------------------------. The key word is TEARS as in SHEDDING TEARS Wiping a wet face is not crying TEARS Hiding your face in your robes does not infer TEARS Harry's eyes can still be wet without him shedding a TEAR For those of you who think there is no difference.... what would have been the result at the end of COS if Fawkes had wiped his eyes on Harry as opposed to shedding phoenix TEARS ... and for those of you who are not so sure about how carefully JKR writes, read the last sentence of ch 37 in oop "Harry looked up at [Dumbledore] and saw a tear trickle down Dumbledore's face into his long silver beard." JKR can describe a tear quite well when she wants to ... If nothing else in this series, JKR has been VERY careful with her words, far more careful than some people have been with their reading. JKR has also said many times in many interviews that EYES are important and I am certain that she has chosen her words very carefully. AND I am certain that the scene I referred to in the movie was not shot in close up by accident. Being pissed off {does NOT imply drops of urine are leaking down my thigh} Samnanya From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 14:13:08 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:13:08 -0000 Subject: Various Wizards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100087 The Great and Wonderful Keeper of the Lexicon (Steve) wrote: > Uric the Oddball is a very strange chap indeed. He was known for > wearing a jellyfish for a hat. He also appears on a famous wizard > card (number 18). Ginger, a bit unnerved at responding to Steve this way, replies: Um, I haven't read the Cards yet, so I don't know if you are quoting them or just misremembering the books, but I'll throw in what's in the books just for interest, since it is one of my very favourite quotes in the whole Potterverse. In FB, p.18, US edition, the entry for Fwooper reads: ...Though enjoyable at first, Fwooper song will eventually drive the listener to insanity (footnote: Uric the Oddball attempted at one time to prove that Fwooper song was actually beneficial to the health and listened to it for three months on end without a break. Unfortunately, the Wizards' Council to which he reported his findings were unconvinced, as he had arrived at the meeting wearing nothing but a toupee that on closer inspection proved to be a dead badger.)... Ginger, Lexicon fangirl, hoping that there isn't a jellyfish reference of which she is ignorant From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 5 14:52:07 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:52:07 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Putting them in the environment, which encourages such garbage, is idiotic at least. I know, we should blame Sorting Hat for that. :o) > > > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco are "lost causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting Snape aside as the lost cause.< Pippin: Do you have a source for the quote? I couldn't find it at Quick Quotes. I did find this: **** http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109 9-starledger-garrity2.html Q. Tom Houseman asked, "Do you think that anyone in real life is truly wholly evil like Draco Malfoy and Voldemort?" A. Rowling said, "My instinct is to say that probably not, but I can't answer that question without ruining the series for you." Rowling said that in future books she will attempt to show "why Voldemort is who he is. **** One could certainly argue that the reason she couldn't answer the question was because she wouldn't use the words "truly wholly evil" to describe Draco and Voldemort, but isn't in a position to explain why. Nor do I think that Slytherin House is destined to be a repository of evil. According to the Sorting Hat's songs in Books Four and Five, the founders were originally all great friends and worked happily together. Now I don't think chivalrous Gryfffindor and gentle Hufflepuff would have been happy to work with Slytherin if he had been driven by hate from the beginning. Nor do I see Slytherin's preference for teaching pure blood wizards as necessarily indicative of hate. We wouldn't conclude that a dog trainer who only trains German Shepherds hates all other dogs, or thinks only Shepherds should be trained. Also, if Hogwarts worked then as it does now, the Founders shared their magical knowledge with each others' students, while using the House system to pass along their individual philosophies. There was no discrimination as far as magical learning was concerned. It was this that forced Slytherin to leave--he no longer wanted Muggleborns to be accepted to the school at all, according to Professor Binns. What happened to poison Slytherin's mind with hate we don't know, but since Rowling says the Hat is sincere, it must have happened after it was created. That means the Chamber, a product of hate, was not part of Slytherin's plan from the beginning, and people are not picked for Slytherin House because they are racist or hate-filled. What is happening, I think, is that people who don't want to associate with racists and hatred are rejecting the House as Harry did, leaving it to the Malfoys and their ilk. This is cultural--it has nothing to do with the Hat at all. Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 5 15:04:45 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:04:45 +0100 Subject: Getting it wrong. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100089 Somebody's got to be wrong - stands to reason. But is it you, me or the others? It's the others of course, bound to be. You and me, we've got the HP saga sussed, right? Of course we have. Maybe not the final showdown but the really important stuff - the motivations, the true characters, the whys and the wherefores. We try to tell the others, but do they listen? Do they hell. It's so sad that so many can be so misguided so often. First up are those that might be called canon-fodder. They actually take the written word at face value! Can you credit it? Would you do that? No, didn't think you would. The whole damn thing is predicated on people and situations not being what they seem, yet this happy band of posters blithely persist in believing that DD is honest, trustworthy and quite possibly cuddly; that Snape hates Harry; that Voldy is just any old pantomime villain - a sort of Ming the Merciless of the WW, and that the Sorting Hat tells the truth. Oh dear. I fear that come the denouement counseling couches the length and breadth of the land will be block-booked by prostrate posters in search of succour. Poor devils. But given time and care they may yet be returned to useful existences. Then there are the theorisers. "Ah," I hear you say, "don't we theorise?" Yes, of course we do, but there's a big difference - we're right; they, unfortunately, are wrong. Poor devils can't help it, they tried hard enough, but they concentrated on the wrong things, analysed the wrong events, drew the wrong conclusions. We'll be magnanimous, 'course we will; pat them on the back, "Well done, old thing. Nice try. Never mind, it doesn't really matter, and anyway you were nearly right, better luck next time." But remember - above all, don't gloat. It's not polite. There's a sub-group of the Theorisers that we'll have to watch out for - the Guessers. They get hunches, leap to conclusions based on absolutely no evidence and then rationalise their thinking afterwards. And sometimes their guesses are right. That can be a touch irritating, like a friend picking the winner of the 2.30 with a pin. Fortunately for all right-thinking analysers (you and me) they may well get the right answer, but for the wrong reasons. This more or less invalidates their credibility. Nobody likes a smart-arse. Sorry about this but it's time to grit our teeth and dredge the depths of degradation. That noxious pit wherein dwells the ultimate nightmare. The surface seethes, a fetid mist roils beneath our feet, a hunched and deformed figure slides into view, garlanded with rose-coloured spectacles, dripping ichor foul with the stench of violets and clutching to its chest a Valentine - dear God, it's a SHIPper! Yes, I know, but be brave, stiff upper lip and all that. Courage Camille, this pain too must pass away. I fear that for this disease there is no cure. They really deserve our sympathy even as we recoil from their poisoned emanations. All reasoning faculties gone they mostly converse by means of initials "R/H!" they cry, then slowly sink again into that hallucinogenic hell known as romance. Addicts, all of them. Mainlining on an opiate that defies all treatment save one. Without their fix (speculation on putative pairings among the characters in the books) they become restive and eventually a mass compulsion causes them to rush like lemmings to swamp the board with pairings that will salve their fevered minds for a while. Eventually the board quietens; reason returns, but they will be back, they always come back. Fortunately their predictions have little to do with the plot; they're a sort of optional bolt-on accessory mostly concerned with events after the curtain comes down on the main action. They claim that they want their favourite characters to live happily ever after, though some of the pairings suggested make me wonder if they aren't exercising a perverse sense of humour instead. But no matter. We can safely leave them to their obsessions; it's highly unlikely that their match-making activities will result in predictions that could cause embarrassment to hardened analysts like us. That covers most of it, I think. What? Us? Whaddaya mean, "Us"? No, no, don't worry. We can't be wrong. It'll be the others - you'll see. Kneasy From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 15:07:27 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:07:27 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100090 > > LOL! Just a brief comment, Kneasy. I am NOT looking for redemption of > the Slytherin house as it stands now. As it is now, it is quite > disgusting as clique of pureblooded bigots, but I find (as I said > earlier) that it is very primitive to mark eleven year olds every > year as future death eaters. Even if we suppose that those kids come > to school with the racist ideas in their heads, I take offence at the > suggestion that those values cannot be unlearned when you are eleven. > > Putting them in the environment, which encourages such garbage, is > idiotic at least. I know, we should blame Sorting Hat for that. :o) > > > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco are "lost > causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting Snape aside > as the lost cause. > > > Alla Hi, Alla, I like your posts, so I thought I'd pass along parts of a post I made back in May (#99587). It was, admittedly, kind of long, but it addresses the ideas in this thread, about what JKR may have been thinking when she created Slytherin house. Here are a few excerpts: ------------------------------------------------------ The causes of the situation, then, are these: 1)The Founders made the decision to sort their new schools students by their own preferred criteria (something that, as has been pointed out, can have advantages and disadvantages). 2)Salazar Slytherin's criteria result in at least the tendency for his house, and his alone, to have students with similar character flaws. 3)Members of a group who share many of the same faults will tend to have those faults reinforced and strengthened. How can JKR justify doing this, when one of her themes is supposed to be the importance of personal choices? [...] I'm not sure what JKR means to do with Slytherin in the future. I think Harry will indeed have reason to rethink his early judgments. I think JKR's scenario of the perniciousness of labelling people and of the dangers of group mentality is a valid point for her to bring up, even though it's more subtle than having "fair" Houses where each student is more likely to be judged on his or her own merits. I also think that some of her dismay at people identifying with Slytherin may stem from being worried that they are actually happy with the status quo. If she wants to make a point about the way Slytherin is sorted, people will miss it if they don't think anything's wrong to begin with. She may also not realise how much some Slytherin fans may be rooting for the "underdog," which is exactly what those students are in a very real sense. By the way, this is not to let Draco off the hook. True, he is at a disadvantage in that both at home and at school his faults have been encouraged. His choice, if he ever makes it, to be "good" will necessarily be much harder than your average Hufflepuff's choice. He may not actually be at heart any more evil to begin with than many others who look much better. Still, the choice is ultimately his to make. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Besides all that, I don't think Jo means that every Slytherin will turn out evil, just as not every evil wizard was a Slytherin. I just think she intends that SSlytherin's choices have resulted in a house that turns out noticably more evil wizards. Somewhere in that post, in a piece I didn't quote, I theorised that the 11-year-old Slytherins didn't arrive with any more faults than the rest, but that their faults were uniquely encouraged by their house. This leaves one to wonder why Dumbledore hasn't done something about that. Either he's powerless to meddle with the Sorting Hat (though it would seem simple just to leave it in his office), or he believes that the ultimate choice between good and evil lies with the students themselves, regardless of where they're sorted. Salazar Slytherin's choices and the split between the Founders are obviously (IMO) going to be important, which means I'm not worried about what Jo's done so far -- though I am a bit surprised she hasn't moved the idea forward at all *yet.* Of course, I had to wait till book 5 to begin seeing what I'd expected out of Neville and McGonagall! Annemehr From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 15:16:51 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:16:51 -0000 Subject: Hagrid seeing Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100091 Earendil wrote: > We know from OotP that Hagrid can see Thestrals. > So whose death did he see? His father's maybe? Any other suggestion, > anyone? Hagrid was in the original Order of the Phoenix (he's in Moody's picture), so it's very likely he saw death then. In GoF, ch. 24 (after Rita Skeeter's article outing him as half-giant), Hagrid says his father died "in me second year," which implies to me it happened during term, so I'm guessing he didn't actually see that. Unless, of course, he was peeping into the girls' bathroom when Myrtle bought it. Annemehr ~sorry about that; couldn't resist... From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 5 15:31:13 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:31:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Getting it wrong. References: Message-ID: <002201c44b12$23b9f320$1159aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100092 Kneasy: > Somebody's got to be wrong - stands to reason. > But is it you, me or the others? > It's the others of course, bound to be. > That covers most of it, I think. What? Us? Whaddaya mean, "Us"? No, > no, don't worry. We can't be wrong. It'll be the others - you'll see. Amandageist wafts in, and finds Kneasy alone in a room talking to a candelabra in excited and literate tones. The candelabra looks worried and is edging backward, but it's coming to the edge of the table. Not wanting to see the result, she exits. She drifts off down the corridor to the staffroom to see who was in charge of making sure Kneasy took his potion today.... ~Amanda From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 15:56:53 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:56:53 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: <13.2cfe3a8d.2df2c10d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100093 > gregory_lynn at y... writes: > > > I hope discussing the potential clues in the POA film is analogous to > > discussing potential clues in interviews and the like because I'm > > about to do it and I don't like being smacked upside the head. > > > > Needless to say there are spoilers if you haven't seen the film yet. > > > > JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to > > think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That > > would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because > > otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? > > > > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book that > > seems significant? > > Cassie: > > Maybe it's all to do with that jab Sirius made to Severus about his chemistry > set. Clearly Severus Snape is really muggle born. :P > Jason: I took JKRs statement into the theater with me and looked for "clues" to books 6 and 7. First one that jumped at me was of course the scene on the bridge with Lupin and Harry. Lily was there for him when few others were? Was there a falling out of the marauders? I guess Lilys kindness may be something important. Another thing i saw was Harry actually seeing something in the crystal ball. Possibly he will be a Seer. I thought i was going to get a clue when Harry's glasses came off but i couldnt get anything out of it. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 16:04:00 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:04:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin's and Sirius' ages. Was: Re: Harry & Draco friends, is he really that rotten? In-Reply-To: <20040605042815.85037.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100094 > > bamf!: >> > Is it possible, that Wormtail had already been in > contact at Hogwarts? He would have had a few years > outside Hogwarts to be 'tapped' or does it make more > sense for it to have happened during his senior year? > >Sherry >I wonder about Peter being in Gryffindor. Is there anything in the >books >that says specifically that he was a Gryffindor? Every time we see >him he >is cowering, not acting brave at all. Also, I've always had the >impression >of him, that he was sort of a tag-along, a follower, who sort of >wormed his >way into the group of James/Sirius/Lupin. Almost like his >generation's >version of Colin Creevey, who is always trying to be around Harry. Of >course, Peter seems to be the same age as the other marauders, and >Creevey >is a year younger, but still, ... maybe. Anyway, that's how I've >always >thought of Peter, a hanger-on, trying to get in good with the popular >and >powerful in his class. Susan (teilani) now: I am rereading the series, but I'm not to PoA yet. However, DD is the Headmaster at Hogwarts when the Marauders are there. Given all the spells and charms on Hogwarts, the fact that you can't apparate, the fact that DD seems to know more than he lets on about just about everything, and the fact that we know his position regarding the admission of students from non-pureblood families, I find it hard to believe that he'd let DEs come to Hogwarts to recruit. Even if there wer evil students like say Lucius and Bella who are trying to drum up support for LV, how would they get off campus to do their evil deeds? I'm assuming the DEs get together just like the members of the Order (not for socializing, but for planning). And the pensieve scene, for all its significance re: the Marauders and Snape, still portrays a rather carefree existence at Hogwarts. When Snape called Lily a &%^blood, she didn't seem to be anything but angry. Now, if students (let's say it, Slytherines) were being recruited, wouldn't the atmosphere of the school be quite different? Wouldn't Lily seem to be more fearful when Snape calls her a &% $blood? She just seems really angry, not only because he called her that, but because she defended the stupid git, and _then_ he calls her that. I know this has been said before, by me and others, (though I cannot find the posts, of couse) but on the night Lily and James are killed and LV falls from power, DD tells MM that the WW has had precious few things to celebrate in the past 11 years (SS 1:10). And based on the other posts, it seems we agree that the Potters' must have been ~ 22 when they were killed, so that gives four years for Peter to get recruited, and more importantly, four years that he wasn't hanging out with the other Marauders on a daily basis at school. Like Sherry, I always thought Peter was more of a tag-along with the other Marauders. He needs their protection from other bullies like Snape and therefore probably wouldn't want to jeopardize his relationship with them while they're all still in school. Just a very long-winded thought. Susan :-) From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 16:35:27 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:35:27 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > The thing that is probably going to jump out at most people is the > conversation between Lupin and Harry on the bridge about which there > has already been some discussion. I think the key element there is > not so much that Lupin liked Lily, though I believe that they would > have been friends even if she hadn't married his best friend. I > think the interesting thing is the bit about her recognizing the > beauty in someone even when the someone didn't recognize it > themselves. Mel: We obviously know Lupin knew Lily, but his comments about her 'finding the beauty in someone who couldn't find it in themselves' is the very first thing that springs to mind. I'm no follower of LOLLIPOPS but I can see how this might lend more credence to Kneasy's "Aggie" theory (which I find much more persauasive especially now). Be that as it may, now on into book 5, Harry's empathy with Snape after snooping into the pensieve hints that he should be able to see more than the outside package--he just has to admit it now. (This, BTW, is always what I've gotten out of all the comments about "having Lily's eyes" over the years. The green to me was just embroidery--I believe that means he sees the way Lily sees, not that he looks like her.) Another thing that hit me like a lead brick was Sirius's comment to Snape in the SS scene about the Chemistry set. I don't know WHY this is sticking with me other than the fact I felt like lunging through the screen at him. I loved it though because it really brought the truer, Bully!Sirius into play there. If they'd only explaind that they were, in fact, all in school together it would have been even better. I am equating the film scene to the > novel scene where Harry describes hearing his father's voice for the > first time, and that may just be wrong of me. I found it VERY interesting that any mention of Harry hearing James was missing. I never thought the voice he heard in the book was that of James, I wonder if the film has inadvertently made that clearer-- as in the 'flashback scene' in the first film not showing James at all. Jame's actual presence at Godric's Hollow at the moment of VD's destruction is becoming less and less obvious. Mel From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 16:42:27 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:42:27 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100096 >>Kneasy wrote: >Obviously I can't speak for female fandom (though sometimes >I despair of it) but as a hard-core, dyed in the wool, unrepentant >connoisseur of mayhem and dirty deeds, I will be severely >disappointed >if any of this redemption and forgiveness stuff comes to pass. Why >should it? No reason at all, so far as I can see. In fact, just the >opposite. >In five books there hasn't been *one* good Slytherin. And the way JKR >responds to the inclinations of fandom suggests that she's not about >to alter her view of them as anything other than a thoroughly bad >lot. >Splendid! >The Slytherin/Pureblood mindset is not Voldy's doing; it was there >long >before he appeared on the scene. It will still be there when (if) he >is >defeated. Do you really think Bella or Malfoy would sign the pledge >and start banging tambourines if Voldy vanished? Not likely. They >(particularly Malfoy) might keep a low profile, but it wouldn't >change >what they *thought* - and that's what counts. It would be a replay of >the events after the first Voldy war; claims of being Imperio!-ed, of >being misunderstood, of being coerced - right up until another >Dark Wizard appears. Then it all starts all over again. >JKR has pointed out, quite forcibly that Snape, Lucius, Draco are >most >definitely not the way they are portrayed in the films. That they >have >no likeable characteristics. Fine by me. I like ole Sevvy the way he >is; >miserable, misanthropic, bitter, vengeful. Lovely. This idea that if >only you can understand someone then they become somehow nice >or reformable is a bit naive IMO. Get to know them better and you're >probably going to find further reasons for hating their guts, that >tends >to be my rule of thumb. >Maybe there are a few fans who latch onto the redemption bit as >a salve for the hankering they have for Slytherin. Perhaps they're >not >really all that bad after all; they can be redeemed and forgiven. >Excuses, excuses. >Much more satisfying to accept them for what they appear to be >and then revel in the final climactic orgy of come-uppances and >balancing of accounts. Kneasy, I'll say it yet again, you really make me laugh! :-) You make us women sound like the stereotypical romantic ninnies who believe that showering a man with an inordinate amount of love and understanding will cause them to change into a completely different person. Plus, there's your sheer delight with evil deeds and plots of revenge, etc. And I totally agree with you about the joy that can be found in the, as you so eloquently put it, "final climactic orgy of come-uppances and balancing of accounts". Brilliant! I didn't know anyone thought there were redeeming qualities in Lucius, but that's besides the point (and yes, I have a point!). I think why everyone keeps waiting for someone from Slytherine to be redeemed/cross over to the good guy side is because of JKR's constant emphasis on choices. However, my money's on PP as far as redempton is concerned. I don't think Snape and Harry will become best pals, I don't think Draco and Harry will indulge their secret desires for each other (thanks /fanfic) and I don't think any of the other DEs will repent at all. I agree totally that it'll be the same as the last time LV fell from power. "Who me? A DE? No way! I was Imperio'd!" The only evil character I think will make any attempt at redemption is Peter, and that's not just because he owes Harry his life, or because of his involvement in his parents' deaths, or because of his involvement in Sirius' incarceration (;-). I think it's going to revolve around his cowardice. (And as an aside, how _did_ cowardly Peter get to be a Gryffindor?!) Harry will save him from LV's wrath, and this time Peter will appreciate it and make some sacrifice of his own to help/save Harry. Obviously this is purely speculation, and to be honest, I really don't want Harry to help Peter at all. I would take delight in watching Peter get _his_ just desserts, though if Harry just left him to his fate, then that would be bad for Harry because he would have to lose his compassion for that to happen. Susan (teilani) who likes Snape in the movies only because Alan Rickman does such an excellent job... not because there's something redeemable about his character. (Can't wait to see him in Gran's outfit!) From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 5 17:01:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:01:33 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > > Jason: > I took JKRs statement into the theater with me and looked > for "clues" to books 6 and 7. First one that jumped at me was of course the scene on the bridge with Lupin and Harry. Lily was there for him when few others were? Was there a falling out of the marauders? I guess Lilys kindness may be something important.< A falling out indeed. That much of EverSoEvil!Lupin (post 39362) is canon. There was a time when both James and Sirius believed that Lupin was the spy--that was why they didn't tell him about the secret keeper switch. But, oh horrors! what if Lily couldn't believe it, and to prove her trust, revealed the secret-keeper switch to ESE!Lupin! He, of course, took it straight to Voldemort, and asked for Lily's life in exchange, convincing himself that it was the only way to save her. Besides, if Sirius was a spy as well, as Lupin seems to have believed, then Voldemort was going to find out anyway. No wonder Lupin was so worried about what Harry overheard as he relived his parents' deaths. What if Lily had revealed in her last moments that Lupin knew about the switch! "You heard James?" indeed! Harry never does tell Lupin that he heard Lily speaking, does he?...only that he could hear her being murdered. Will Harry have to find a way to endure a Dementor's presence without passing out or letting it take his soul so that he can at access all the memories of his mother's death and find out what she was saying with her last breath? And innocent Cuaron thought he was merely taking poetic license. Hah! Pippin who isn't saying anything about the vampire clues because she doesn't think they were inadvertent, one bit. From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 17:05:20 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:05:20 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >> who isn't saying anything about the vampire clues because she > doesn't think they were inadvertent, one bit. *What* vampire clues? Other than the combination nosferatu/igor weirdo in the Leaky Cauldron. Walk this way If I could walk that way... Oh sorry, wrong movie. Vampire clue: Snape was up past Harry's bedtime. Yeah. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 17:19:21 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:19:21 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100099 The Sergeant Majorette says It seems to me (and I was trying to hold on to a sleeping 4-year-old at the time, so I may be wrong) but while Lupin was talking about Harry having Lily's "way of seeing" (as opposed to having her eyes, as it's usually in the books), there is a closeup of Dan Radcliffe's greyish blue (nice, but not "brilliant" or green) eyes. A lot has been made of the fact that movie Harry doesn't have green eyes, while both movie Hermione and movie Draco both have the canon haircolor through the miracle of modern science. And it's not as if 11-year old actors can't wear contacts. --JDR (who, sorry, didn't love the movie) From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 17:38:30 2004 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:38:30 -0000 Subject: We can keep calling him Voldy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aldo" wrote: > I just checked the rumors section of JKR's website and run across > this: > > "JKR is deadly serious when she forbids people to call > Voldemort 'Voldy' > > Erm... I was joking. I thought it was very amusing when I found a > chat room full of people calling him 'Voldy'. Maybe I should develop > a secret symbol that means 'this is a joke', a kind of anti-Dark > Mark? And incidentally... I wasn't really Squidward that day in the > MuggleNet chat room, either. That's a SpongeBob SquarePants in-joke. > I used a different name. So you can all stop logging on as Squidward > now ;)" > > The woman is seriously developing a taste for messing with our heads > and yanking our chains, it seems. > > I hope she comes up with the "this is a joke" symbol fast or we'll > lose our minds. > > "Aldo" Well, really, quite a few people twigged that the tone of her "This Must Stop" pronouncement was rather teasing. Don't know about the Squidward thing; I haven't watched SpongeBob and am utterly clueless on the subject. I think I did notice some correlation between people who took it as dead serious (particularly without adding jokes about, "Well, I guess we'll stick to 'Thingy' now..." or the like) and a tendency to put what I consider to be far too much significance (and distress!) on her less favorable comments about various Slytherins. PK From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 5 17:49:44 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:49:44 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100101 Pippin: > >> who isn't saying anything about the vampire clues because she doesn't think they were inadvertent, one bit.<<< > Melclaros: > *What* vampire clues? Other than the combination nosferatu/igor weirdo in the Leaky Cauldron.< Aside from Snape's Bela Lugosi stalk which Vmonte noticed (post 10085) there's the way he slammed all those shutters in the DADA classroom. Now, did he need to shut out the sunlight because he wanted to use the slide projector, or did he want to use the slide projector because he needed to shut out the sun? I thought it was an interesting, visual allusion to the vampire references in the book ::drags discussion kicking and screaming back toward canon:: and the parallel fears of Snape and Lupin. I wonder if Snape's boggart is the sun? Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 5 18:37:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 18:37:56 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > Kneasy, I'll say it yet again, you really make me laugh! :-) You > make us women sound like the stereotypical romantic ninnies who > believe that showering a man with an inordinate amount of love and > understanding will cause them to change into a completely different > person. Kneasy: Romantic ninnies? Not I, I know my Kipling:- "For the female of the species is more deadly than the male" The RL circumstances that inspired his poem "The Betrothed" is quite instructive though, and just to balance it, read his "Mary Gloster", it's a heartbreaker. Maybe I'm being cavalier with sweeping statements, but be fair, don't you agree that the distaff side is much more susceptible to any romantic possibilities in any story? Generally, us males skip that bit to get to the more interesting stuff. >Susan: > The only evil character I think will make any attempt at redemption > is Peter, and that's not just because he owes Harry his life, or > because of his involvement in his parents' deaths, or because of his > involvement in Sirius' incarceration (;-). I think it's going to > revolve around his cowardice. (And as an aside, how _did_ cowardly > Peter get to be a Gryffindor?!) Harry will save him from LV's wrath, > and this time Peter will appreciate it and make some sacrifice of his > own to help/save Harry. Kneasy: Possible. But only if the alternative for Peter is worse - he's too afraid of Voldy to up sticks and take his silver hand and tin of Brasso over to the other side without *very* strong motivation. Just owing Harry won't do it IMO. But if Voldy is throwing a wobbler, raining death and destruction on all and sundry and looking at Peter in particular as a target for special treatment, then Peter might just do it. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 5 19:02:17 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:02:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film References: Message-ID: <004e01c44b2f$9fe38250$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100103 A lot has been made of the fact that movie Harry doesn't have green eyes, while both movie Hermione and movie Draco both have the canon haircolor through the miracle of modern science. And it's not as if 11-year old actors can't wear contacts. --JDR (who, sorry, didn't love the movie) I don't think we should read into the fact that Daniel Radcliffe doesn't have green eyes in the movie. My eyes, for example, are so sensitive that I can't wear contacts. Maybe Daniel's like that. Maybe the producers and directors thought it's not fair to force him to wear contacts that might make him uncomfortable when the colour of his eyes can only be seen once in a while anyway. I'm sure if JKR told WB that Green Eyes are the absolute focal point of the story and there's no way to adapt book 7 to a movie if they're Blue Eyes, they would've worked CG magic. Alina, who after seeing the movie and loving it came to a horrifying realization that absolutely every explanation has been cut out making it alienating and incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read the books. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 19:08:56 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:08:56 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100104 > Kneasy: > Romantic ninnies? Not I, I know my Kipling:- > "For the female of the species is more deadly than the male" Susan: OT I know, but if you are familiar with "Paradise Lost", there are plenty of people who think Satan chose Eve not because she would be the easiest to convince, but because she would be the hardest, and if he got her, Adam would follow right along ;-) Kneasy: > Maybe I'm being cavalier with sweeping statements, but be fair, don't > you agree that the distaff side is much more susceptible to any > romantic possibilities in any story? Generally, us males skip that bit > to get to the more interesting stuff. Susan: Absolutely! I got completely carried away with the action, politics, etc., when I read Shogun, but I initially started reading it for the romance. Besides, I cannot picture (though I'm sure they're out there) a bunch of men speculating on Ron's love life, let alone writing romantic fanfic involving _any_ of the characters from _any_ series! > > The only evil character I think will make any attempt at redemption > > is Peter, and that's not just because he owes Harry his life, or > > because of his involvement in his parents' deaths, or because of his > > involvement in Sirius' incarceration (;-). I think it's going to > > revolve around his cowardice. (And as an aside, how _did_ cowardly > > Peter get to be a Gryffindor?!) Harry will save him from LV's wrath, > > and this time Peter will appreciate it and make some sacrifice of his > > own to help/save Harry. > > Kneasy: > Possible. But only if the alternative for Peter is worse - he's too > afraid of Voldy to up sticks and take his silver hand and tin of > Brasso over to the other side without *very* strong motivation. > Just owing Harry won't do it IMO. But if Voldy is throwing a wobbler, > raining death and destruction on all and sundry and looking at > Peter in particular as a target for special treatment, then Peter > might just do it. Susan again: Exactly it. He's not going to sacrifice his own skin for any reason unless the alternative is worse. IMHO, he didn't run back to LV in PoA because he wanted to go. He ran back to LV because he didn't want to go to Azkaban, or worse, get his soul sucked out of him. And again, IMO he's the most likely to try his hand at redemption. You said something similar in a previous post re: Snape, and I have to agree with that as well. >>Kneasy: >>Though I have in the past speculated along these lines myself but >with >subtleties - Harry gets himself into trouble (again) and poor old >Sevvy >is the one to get him out of it, making the supreme sacrifice in the >process. It's the 'why' that's important. Not because he's changed >his >mind about Harry being a stubborn, impulsive, rash little snot, but >because Harry is the best bet for Snape's dearest wish to be >fulfilled, >the destruction of Voldy. >He, like DD sees young Potter as Weapon!Harry and the instrument of >his revenge. Thus Snape would save Harry (possibly a redemptive act) >but for typically Snape reasons - so that Harry can wreak vengence >for >what Voldy did to Snape. Susan once again: If Snape was going to do anything even remotely redemptive in _Harry's_ eyes, Snape's motivation for doing such would have nothing to do with actual redemption. It would concern his own reasons for either hating LV or sucking up to DD or getting recognition from the MoM, etc. The Slytherine Way. The only thing that bothers me about this is that it goes back to the pure speculation that LV did something *personally* to Snape, which seems to inevitably bring us back to him having a family or love life (and of course, the twins;-), which I just cannot picture. I totally agree that there obviously has to be some kind of motivation for Snape to stop being a DE, and I can't wait to find out what that is, but until JKR TELLS me outright that Snape lost his lover/family to LV and the DEs, I just won't believe it. Susan (who truly enjoyed your *interview*, but would love to see what _your_ fanfic would be like... ;-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 19:16:15 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:16:15 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: <004e01c44b2f$9fe38250$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100105 > Alina, > who after seeing the movie and loving it came to a horrifying realization > that absolutely every explanation has been cut out making it alienating and > incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read the books. Susan (teilani) here: And I couldn't be happier. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I was really happy to hear that they didn't do a bunch of explaining and repeating. IMHO, it's just going to make it better. They didn't have to waste time telling everyone who Harry is, because most of the world already knows that! :. they could spend time telling the story. How long would GoF have to be if the director/producers spent half an hour explaining who everyone was and why they're there, etc.? I'm a huge Star Trek fan, and that's the only thing that I hated about the movies. I know who and what Data is and didn't need to sit in the theater for half an hour while they explained that he's not human. If these people are confused as to who Harry & Co are, then perhaps they should pick up a book ;-) From littlekat10 at comcast.net Sat Jun 5 15:55:39 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:55:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid seeing Thestrals References: Message-ID: <00be01c44b15$8d27d1d0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100106 I can't recall who said what about Hagrid's seeing Thestrals but this is my opinion on that subject. Remember that in Chamber of Secrets Hagrid was sent to Azkaban. I'm thinking that maybe he saw death while he was incarcerated there. We don't hear a thing about what he went through while he was forced to be an inmate but we can theorize that he maybe saw some awful things. Also remember that as gamekeeper he would have had to see death because animals under his care could certainly have died. I don't think that it matters whether it is an animal or a person or a giant, etc., who dies. Littlekat From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 16:51:14 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:51:14 -0400 Subject: Possible Spoilers (was Re:] Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100107 | From: gregory_lynn | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2 | Peter Pettigrew on the Marauders Map. I was a bit irked by this | quite frankly, but I'm not sure how it could be a clue to something | in the later books. [Lee]: Why? In the book, Lupin indicated that he saw Peter's name on the map which was what surprised him most and one of the reasons he ran to investigate. So Peter showing up on the map in the film is correct. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 19:44:29 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:44:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Spoilers (was Re:] Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c44b35$851089e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100108 [Lee]: Why? In the book, Lupin indicated that he saw Peter's name on the map which was what surprised him most and one of the reasons he ran to investigate. So Peter showing up on the map in the film is correct. Cheers, Lee :-) Sherry I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in the book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was already in Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name because Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by Crookshanks, we don't know where he was, except that he ended up in a bottle in Hagrid's hut on the fateful day. I think he must have been off the grounds in some way every time Harry looked at the map, otherwise, Harry would have seen his name. Unless Harry just wasn't looking in the right place, being focused on who might catch him sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the grounds. If that makes any sense. sherry G From enigma_only at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 19:48:00 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:48:00 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100109 wrote: > Needless to say there are spoilers if you haven't seen the film yet. > > JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to > think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That > would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because > otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? > > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book that > seems significant? Bonny here: One of the things that really stuck out to me in the film was the scene in which the Gryffindor boys are hanging out in their dormitory, making noises with candy. Seamus makes a monkey noise, which makes sense because he's a joker. Neville makes an elephant noise, and what do we know about elephants? THEY NEVER FORGET! Could this be a clue as to the nature of Nevilles repressed memory? Also, Ron makes the noise of a Lion, and Harry, who makes no animal noise, shoots steam out of his ears. It struck me that this could be forshadowing of them becoming animagus (Harry and Ron, I mean). Ron has many of the personality traits of a Lion, and the steam coming out of Harry's ears could represent the horns of a stag. The way the shots were set up also said a lot to me. Throughout the film, we see Harry as seperate from Ron and Hermione. The best frame in which to see this is when Hagrid is skipping rocks. There is a close up of his head, taking up all the screen except the two upper corners. R and Her. are in one, and Harry is in the other. There are also other instances, in which R and Her. are dressed in colours, and Harry walks beside them dressed all in black. We also see images of Harry, dressed in black, standing behind an onimously ticking clock. A ticking time bomb, perhaps? And, finally for now because supper is ready, we see many instances of Harry examining his reflection, and it appearing dark. He looks at his reflection in the window of the train, and in the lake, and it looks very creepy. Maybe Harry will be forced to examine his dark side more thoroughly. Bonny From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 18:06:31 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:06:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid seeing Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100110 | From: annemehr | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:17 AM | (after Rita Skeeter's article outing him as half-giant), Hagrid says | his father died "in me second year," which implies to me it happened | during term, so I'm guessing he didn't actually see that. Unless his father was ill and Hagrid got permission to go back home because his dad was dying. We don't know the cause of Hagrid's father's death. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sarahmint at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 18:45:09 2004 From: sarahmint at yahoo.com (sarahmint at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 18:45:09 -0000 Subject: "to sore" or "to soar" typo? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100111 Somewhere in Order of the Phoenix (I can't find the page number, please help me) Ginny is talking to Harry about being possessed by Voldemort and losing conciousness for hours at a time. The words "Harry's heart began to soar." is written. Is this a typo. Is Harry's heart sore because his body is being manipulated by the Dark Lord or is his heart begining to soar because he is happy? It would make more sense if he was sad with being controlled by a murder who killed his parents. Why would his heart be soaring? Even if he does feel for Ginny, he would not be happy with the particular conversation. From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Sat Jun 5 19:12:26 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:12:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <97.48eaef9a.2df3751a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100112 Pippin: >>>who isn't saying anything about the vampire clues because she doesn't think they were inadvertent, one bit.<<< > Melclaros: >*What* vampire clues? Other than the combination nosferatu/igor weirdo in the Leaky Cauldron.< hmm... well, JKR has this tendancy to use something to refernce something which references something that will reference whatever she's trying to hint at. If that sentence made sense to you, then you probably already know how the books will end, because it sure didn't make sense to me... Anyway, I've always wondered if all of the vampire and bat refences weren't supposed to mean he was a vampire, but perhaps that he is a bat animagi. There are too many references to Snape gliding like a bat and moving like a bat and Alan Rickman (who we *know* has information straight from JKR that we haven't been told yet) choosing to have that sort of vampiric presense. There has to be something in those refences. I also can't help thinking that *if* Snape is a vampire, Hermione already knows. Hermione knew right away that Lupin was a werewolf from the essay Snape made them write, so when Lupin made them write the vampire essay, she would have figured it out if it were true. That said, if it *is* true and she *does* know that Snape is a werewolf, then why would she keep that from her friends? She didn't tell Lupin's secret, but she *liked* Lupin. If she is hiding this, what else could she be hiding? Hermione tends to know so much more than she lets on. I can't help thinking she knows what the bat clues mean. She *is* JKR's voice, afterall... "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 5 20:08:02 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:08:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "to sore" or "to soar" typo? References: Message-ID: <001601c44b38$cee67cc0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100113 Somewhere in Order of the Phoenix (I can't find the page number, please help me) Ginny is talking to Harry about being possessed by Voldemort and losing conciousness for hours at a time. The words "Harry's heart began to soar." is written. Is this a typo. Is Harry's heart sore because his body is being manipulated by the Dark Lord or is his heart begining to soar because he is happy? It would make more sense if he was sad with being controlled by a murder who killed his parents. Why would his heart be soaring? Even if he does feel for Ginny, he would not be happy with the particular conversation. **** I don't see how this would be a typo. First of all, there is no verb "to sore" only an adjective "sore." And the reason Harry's heart soared was that he didn't experience the symptoms Ginny was describing and thus was not possessed as he feared. Alina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 19:49:27 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:49:27 -0400 Subject: Hagrid seeing Thestrals In-Reply-To: <00be01c44b15$8d27d1d0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100114 | From: Littlekat10 | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:56 AM | | I can't recall who said what about Hagrid's seeing Thestrals but | this is my | opinion on that subject. Remember that in Chamber of Secrets Hagrid was | sent to Azkaban. I'm thinking that maybe he saw death while he was | incarcerated there. We don't hear a thing about what he went | through while | he was forced to be an inmate but we can theorize that he maybe saw some | awful things. [Lee responds]: My dear friend for the past 30-something years, Point taken, but Hagrid had, from what I can interpret from the passages in OOTP, had been working with thestrals for quite some time, and they've been pulling the carriages to and from Hogwarts all this time, just unseen by most. So, Hagrid's death experience would have to happen way before COS for him to be able to work with thestrals, IMHO. Littlekat: | Also remember that as gamekeeper he would have had to see | death because animals under his care could certainly have died. I don't | think that it matters whether it is an animal or a person or a | giant, etc., | who dies. [Lee]: Interesting thought. I'm sorta inclined to the thought that the death would have to be of someone/thing for whom the witness had some sort of feeling. I can't give a specific, but I would think that the process of the acceptance of the death opens one up to seeing the thestrals. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 19:57:24 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:57:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Spoilers (was Re:] Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: <004001c44b35$851089e0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100115 | From: Sherry Gomes | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 15:44 PM | I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in the | book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was already in | Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name because | Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by Crookshanks, we don't | know where he was, except that he ended up in a bottle in Hagrid's hut on | the fateful day. I think he must have been off the grounds in some way | every time Harry looked at the map, otherwise, Harry would have seen his | name. Unless Harry just wasn't looking in the right place, being | focused on | who might catch him sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the | grounds. If that makes any sense. That makes perfect sense to me. Harry's attention was on his immediate surroundings, I think, making sure that, probably in particular, Snape or Filch wouldn't see him. In many refs to the map, like in GOF for example, Harry would look particularly for those two and for Mrs. Norris to be sure his coast was clear. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 19:58:01 2004 From: wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com (Kitty) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 12:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape theory (Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040605195801.14974.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100116 Melclaros wrote: > *What* vampire clues? Other than the combination > nosferatu/igor > weirdo in the Leaky Cauldron. > Walk this way > If I could walk that way... > > Oh sorry, wrong movie. > Vampire clue: Snape was up past Harry's bedtime. > Yeah. As silly as this may sound I don't think Snape is a vampire at all, I actually think he's a werewolf. I'm not even sure why I beleive this, but it's what I started thinking through the end of the movie when I saw it yesterday. Anyone else have this idea, or am I just nuts? Kitty From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 5 20:33:04 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 20:33:04 -0000 Subject: Snape theory (Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: <20040605195801.14974.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kitty wrote: > As silly as this may sound I don't think Snape is a > vampire at all, I actually think he's a werewolf. I'm > not even sure why I beleive this, but it's what I > started thinking through the end of the movie when I > saw it yesterday. Anyone else have this idea, or am I > just nuts? If Snape were a werewolf, he would have transformed at the full moon. The wolfsbane potion does not keep the werewolf from transforming physically, it only allows him to keep his human mind during the transformation. Pippin From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 5 20:33:32 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:33:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (spoilers/clues) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100118 S S S S Spoiler Space S S S S Sweetly Sponsored by Severus Snape and Slytherin House S S S S In a message dated 6/5/2004 10:57:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: Hermione's role was very different in the book than in the this film, why I wonder? She really interferes with time in a way she did not in the book. She throws stones at herself and Harry, she cries out to the wolf... ========================= Sherrie here: But that had (from Future!Hermione's PoV) already happened, just has Harry casting the Patronus had already happened. She didn't INTERFERE with the timestream - NOT doing those things would have changed time. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fkilc at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 20:27:02 2004 From: fkilc at yahoo.com (fkilc) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 20:27:02 -0000 Subject: Snape theory (Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: <20040605195801.14974.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100119 Kitty wrote: > As silly as this may sound I don't think Snape is a > vampire at all, I actually think he's a werewolf. I'm > not even sure why I beleive this, but it's what I > started thinking through the end of the movie when I > saw it yesterday. Anyone else have this idea, or am I > just nuts? If Snape had been a werewolf, surely he would have transformed like Lupin since he was there with HRH. Francois From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sat Jun 5 15:52:21 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:52:21 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100120 > Alla: > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco > are "lost causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her > putting Snape aside as the lost cause. HEAR! HEAR! I find that some of the things that fans come up with have me asking "Have you read the books?" Things like Ron & Hermione becoming a couple. If not for Harry Ron and Hermione wouldn't even be friends! And this nonsense that Draco Malfoy will turn good. JKR has made it perfectly clear,in five novels, that the Malfoys are vicious, hateful snakes. That there is not one good bone in Draco's body and I hope that something really nasty happens to him in the end. If nothing else, that he and daddy end up in the same cell block in Azkaban. I also hope that the Dursleys face some retribution. They should be in jail for the way they treated Harry. As for Snape, it's true that he is working to bring Voldemort down. But Snape really disappointed me with his actions torwards Harry in OotP. I always thought that he had to much pride to use his position as a teacher to harass and attack Harry, but he is a Slytherin after all and I'm hoping that Dumbledore will come down on Snape with both feet in Book 6 for this. In spite of being on the same side against Voldemort there will be a confrontation between Harry and Snape and I don't think "Snivellus" will come out all that well. Oh and you know that Harry will call Snape "Snivellus" before too long. "mcmaxslb" From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 20:24:40 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:24:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "to sore" or "to soar" typo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100121 | From: sarahmint at yahoo.com | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 14:45 PM | | Somewhere in Order of the Phoenix (I can't find the page number, | please help me) Ginny is talking to Harry about being possessed by | Voldemort and losing conciousness for hours at a time. The | words "Harry's heart began to soar." is written. Is this a typo. | Is Harry's heart sore because his body is being manipulated by the | Dark Lord or is his heart begining to soar because he is happy? It | would make more sense if he was sad with being controlled by a | murder who killed his parents. Why would his heart be soaring? [Lee]: Soaring with relief because he now understands that he, in fact, was not really possessed. Harry was, IMHO, so involved with his own feelings and trials that the memory of what Ginny may have experienced in COS completely eluded him. He's in that mode where he thinks no one can possibly understand what he's going through, and fails to recall that Ginny had lived through being controlled by Tom's memory...basically possessed by it and made to do things and find herself in situations she couldn't remember doing or getting into. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 5 20:40:03 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:40:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <1aa.24df0476.2df389a3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100122 In a message dated 6/5/2004 1:23:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jdr0918 at hotmail.com writes: A lot has been made of the fact that movie Harry doesn't have green eyes, while both movie Hermione and movie Draco both have the canon haircolor through the miracle of modern science. And it's not as if 11-year old actors can't wear contacts. ============ Sherrie here: This particular one couldn't. They tried to put them in, but he got an eye infection. Not a good outcome. Better the wrong color eyes. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 20:40:25 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 20:40:25 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: <20040605031231.50824.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100123 Moonmyyst wrote: > I am rereading GoF and I was wondering if anyone was able to > figure out how Fred and George were able to figure out that Ireland > would win over Bulgaria but that Krum would get the snitch? In Chapter 7 of The Goblet of Fire Mr. Weasley sends Ron, Hermione and Harry to get water while the rest gather wood. Then in Chapter 9 when the Death Eaters are on the March, Ron Hermione and Harry get separated from Fred, George and Ginny. It is possible that one of the twins had a time turner and used it at this time. All they would have had to do is say how the Quidditch match ended and then the twins in Chapter 7 could place the bet that the twins in chapter 9 told them to make. mikefeemster From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 5 20:49:55 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:49:55 EDT Subject: Snape theory (Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100124 In a message dated 6/5/2004 4:21:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com writes: As silly as this may sound I don't think Snape is a vampire at all, I actually think he's a werewolf. I'm not even sure why I beleive this, but it's what I started thinking through the end of the movie when I saw it yesterday. Anyone else have this idea, or am I just nuts? ============== Sherrie here: Snape cannot be a werewolf - or he too would have transformed in PoA, and been as ill as Lupin afterward - thus unable to take on Lupin's classes as he did. As far as I know, unconsciousness is NOT an impediment to the werewolf transformation.) Unless you think he's got some sort of super-Wolfsbane potion that completely stops the transformation, and he's maliciously keeping it away from Lupin? FTR - I also don't think he's a vampire. I think he's a normal human wizard. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jun 5 17:39:00 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:39:00 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100125 Pippin wrote: > who isn't saying anything about the vampire clues because she > doesn't think they were inadvertent, one bit. melclaros wrote: > *What* vampire clues? Other than the combination nosferatu/igor > weirdo in the Leaky Cauldron. [snip] Demetra: I posted my ideas on what the clues were on the movie list but here was what I wrote about Vampire:Snape... I'm going to preface this by saying that I absolutely hate the Vampire Snape theory, but when he enters the room to teach DADA for Lupin the first thing he does is cover the windows so no light gets in. Granted he does proceed to show something on some sort of projector but my first thought was that the Vampire Snape (I admit I immediately thought of Pippin!) theorists are gonna love this. Here are the other minor things I noticed: In the first Divinations class, Trelawney turns her gaze on Ron and seems a little shocked and says something to the effect of "Your aura is positively pulsing". Hints at Seer Ron?? In the Shrieking Shack, Snape refers to Lupin and Sirius as bickering like an old married couple. The Remus/Sirius shippers will love that (and the hug). I'm kind of fond of Remus/Severus fanfiction myself and I also noticed that in the shreiking shack Snape calls Lupin Remus. Something I don't ever remember him doing in the books. Could they have once been on friendlier terms? Is Snape's hatred of Lupin a bit of an act, like I'm convinced much (not all) of his hatred towards Harry is? Demetra (who thought the movie was very well done overall, but thinks the film-makers completely F'd up the Shreiking Shack scene) From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 17:46:26 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:46:26 -0400 Subject: Tears (was ] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100126 Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm gonna put forth a simple observation or two re the tears thing. Some actors just can't do the tears thing very well, so it's necessary to observe the rest of the attitude. Case in point would be an episode in Star Trek--Next Generation where Majel Barret is supposed to be crying hysterically but her face is dry. Now, here's an experienced actress who just can't get tears to flow. This only one theory...that Dan R. just hasn't been able to learn how to do it. Another theory might be that Harry is to numbed to _really_ cry, or that he managed to dry his face before the cloak was pulled off and is holding back more tears because the last thing in the world a teen would want is for his friends to see what he may feel is "sissy" behavior. Just a couple of thinkings. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jun 5 20:08:36 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 20:08:36 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > samnanya wrote: > > As Harry turns to face her and express his pain, his face > is DRY, particularly his eyes, as if he was incapable of > shedding a tear. This scene was one of the few in POA that was actualy shot in close-up. For some reason a lot of the film was done in > medium to long shot, and the scene was filmed this way to > make sure that we are paying attention to Harry, and Harry > alone. > I have commented here before about Harry's inability to shed > tears throughout the series, and the movie empahsizes this. > JKR has always talked about eyes being significant and this > scene may provide yet another clue how this is indeed so. > [snip] Demetra: I was paying close attention to this scene because I had read someone's review where they mentioned how unbelievable Dan's acting was here. I didn't notice the close-up until you mentioned it, but in retrospect I agree. Extreme close-up here as compared to the rest of the movie. I actually also noticed a lack of tears, but then Dan sort of turned his head a little to the side and saw a wet spot near his upper lip. I took this to be a tear. Could have been a runny nose, though. The area around his eyes is perfectly dry, if I remember correctly. I've read theories about a connection between the fact that the eyes are a Dragons weakness and the "specialness" of Harry's eyes. Do dragons have tears? From mariaalena at purdue.edu Sat Jun 5 21:09:55 2004 From: mariaalena at purdue.edu (Maria) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:09:55 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Movie Discussion Reminder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100128 Greetings from Hexquarters! (Yes, again. ) All of us Elves are very excited about the new film, but we must ask you to move the movie discussion to our sister list, located at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie . As a reminder, the guideline for deciding whether a post belongs to this list or the movie list is this: If you are using the movie to speculate about what will happen or has happened in the books, etc., it's considered on-topic here. If you are discussing the movie *only*, such as what scenes you liked, please post your thoughts to the movie list. Thanks so much! Manya Elf for the List Admin Team From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 5 21:19:04 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:19:04 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb Roberts wrote: > Alla: > > > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > > be a virtue. Is it true? Barbara Roberts: > I'm not British, but I don't think pure ambition is considered a > virtue many Americans either. Is one of those words that can mean > something good, but usually doesn't. It's certainly not on any > traditional (Christian) list of virtues. Geoff: Having been away for a week on holiday, I am busy catching up on messages. I can only see one follow up on this thread which doesn't deal with your specific comment. May i point you to a reply I wrote on this in message 99629. From sym_2_one at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 21:13:45 2004 From: sym_2_one at yahoo.com (sym_2_one) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:13:45 -0000 Subject: Snape -- blood debt to James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100130 I haven't posted in a really long time, but I've read the Snape/Harry mutual hate theories, and I have one of my own spawned from a post I read last week: Would it be possible that the reason why Snape keeps trying to help Harry is because his blood debt to James was compromised by the Potters' death? Is it possible that Snape feels somewhat guilty about their deaths, and has moved on to Harry because of that? I realize that I'm making a huge assumption here, but, if Snape was a D.E. and he alerted Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, could it be possible that Snape knew that at least one of the Potters' friends had turned traitor? Why else would Dumbledore believe Sirius' story so completely in POA without any evidence to support it besides the words of two thirteen year old wizards? And even if Snape did not know, I believe that in GOF Dumbledore says that Snape turned to the good side just before Voldemort's downfall. Is it possible that he did this in response to his blood debt to James? Found out what Voldemort was up to and tried to stop it? And in his failure to save James' life (i.e. repay the debt), had to turn to Harry instead? JKR says that this type of connection between wizards is extremely powerful. I just want to know others opinion on the matter. "sym_2_one" From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 5 21:43:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:43:46 -0000 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > > > Which brings me back to the order in which the ghost-figures > appeared in the > > priori. I guess I am just too dense to see where the goof was and > have to > > reread GOF...again. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Lee :-) Alina: > The goof was that the spells appear from the wand in the order last > to first. So since James was killed first and Lily second, then > Lily's ghost would appear from the wand first and James' second. But > in the earlier editions, James comes out first and says "Your mother > is coming." > > By the way, does anyone know how exactly this was corrected in later > editions? What did Lily say when she appeared first? Geoff: Again, I hope I haven't overlooked other answers as I have been away for a week but, to clarify what has already been said in answer to your query, in message 97773, I posted a full comparison of both versions. Here is what I wrote.... ***** When I went to look this up to answer your question, I realised for the first time that I have both versions. My hardback has the original version which reads as follows: 'The smoky shadow of a tall man with untidy hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his father. "Your mother's coming," he said quietly.... "She wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' (GOF "Priori Incantatem" p.579 UK edition) My paperback version, on the same page has: 'The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. "Your father's coming," she said quietly.... "He wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' ***** Following up a further comment, the apparition doesn't say "hold on for your father/mother", it just syas "hold on.." From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 5 22:10:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 22:10:40 -0000 Subject: Dudders' Birthday--May or June In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The > Healing Force)" wrote: > > Potioncat wrote: > > | Yep, Dudders came to my mind. Didn't we work out he's a couple > of > > | months older than Harry? > > > > I would figure that Dudley's B-D is in June since Harry's home for > the > > > > Dudley's birthday is June 23. No, Rowling never said it > specifically, but there are enough clues in the book to nail it down > almost for certain. > > > Steve > the Lexicon Geoff: Back in mesage 89687, I put together a similar batch of information to arrive at a similar (if not quite so precise) solution. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 5 22:13:32 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 18:13:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100133 Geoff writes: | | Following up a further comment, the apparition doesn't say "hold on | for your father/mother", it just syas "hold on.." Perhaps not in the UK edition, but I posted a word-for-word transcription of the edition used for the US audio book. Sorry, I can't direct you to a post number. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who used to do transcription for a living.) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 5 22:34:32 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 22:34:32 -0000 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Geoff writes: > | > | Following up a further comment, the apparition doesn't say "hold on > | for your father/mother", it just syas "hold on.." Lee: > Perhaps not in the UK edition, but I posted a word-for-word transcription of > the edition used for the US audio book. Sorry, I can't direct you to a post > number. Geoff: At the risk of putting the cat among the pigeons, I would consider the UK edition as being more fully canon that later derivatives; I would therefore interpret "hold on for your father" as being "hold on while your father gets here", which is the feel of the original "hold on.." From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 01:26:23 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 01:26:23 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100135 Possible Hints at 6 and 7 in the POA movie: Okay, I've never contributed much, but I just saw the movie, and I have to chime in. Many many things stick out in my mind: Hermione clings to Ron when they think Buckbeak is about to die; Harry turns and clings to Hermione. Meanwhile, Ron just stares dumbly straight ahead. Hmmm. Shippers? What say you? Sirius says James thought he should stay a dog and while he didn't mind the tail, the fleas were murder (loved it). Then it is Sirius (not Dumbledore) who tells Harry those who love us never truly leave us. Was this a foreshadowing? Is there a way a Wizard can leave behind a representation of himself (a dog?) who will protect those he loved in life? Also, it's pretty certain Lupin loved Lily. She was kind to him. He was full of self loathing. She saw through that to the man beneath. If we accept that Snape had feelings for her, were there a whole line of men in love with Lily? Another thing: Snape trying to protect the children from the werewolf. Okay, he raised that cloak just like Bela Lugosi, but that's another argument. My point was, he was trying to defend Harry et al from Lupin's werewolf form. A foreshadowing? Sirius point: He tried to keep Lupin from changing by holding him and talking to him, putting his hand on Lupin's heart. Then he puts his hand on Harry's heart at the end. It is obvious to me that Sirius represents heart and loyalty (the dog connection). He sure doesn't represent common sense or reason; he is all emotion, most of it out of control and Gary Oldham played him wonderfully that way; he really did careen on the edge of madness. He is like a particularly fierce and devoted dog, who *will* bite (just ask Snape) but who will die for those he loves. I know JKR says those who die are truly dead, but I wonder about the possibility of a mysterious dog showing up in 6 or 7, perhaps only visible to Harry. And what were the tatoos on his chest? Did anyone figure them out and what they meant? Loved the Knight Bus!!!!!!! Talking Head! Old lady in the street! Great stuff! Marmelade Mom, who has lurked for months. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 6 02:11:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:11:00 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100136 Susan wrote: > > Susan (teilani) who likes Snape in the movies only because Alan > Rickman does such an excellent job... not because there's something > redeemable about his character. (Can't wait to see him in Gran's > outfit!) Potioncat: I cut the remains of Kneasy's very funny post (BTW, did we ever find out who forgot to give him his potion?) And I cut most of Susan's post. OK, now that it won't be a oneliner: Snape has already been redeemed. He isn't going to turn into Mr. Rogers! spoiler..... s p o i l e r IMHO, PoA Snape is the closest to canon, in spite of the odd way the werewolf scene was handled. Potioncat From dk59us at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 02:30:17 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:30:17 -0000 Subject: Snape theory (Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100137 Sherrie wrote: > > FTR - I also don't think he's a vampire. I think he's a normal human wizard. > Eustace_Scrubb: Well, I agree with you that he's neither werewolf nor vampire, but that he's a human wizard. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's _normal_, though! Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 02:30:21 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:30:21 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > I cut the remains of Kneasy's very funny post (BTW, did we ever find > out who forgot to give him his potion?) And I cut most of Susan's > post. > > OK, now that it won't be a oneliner: > > Snape has already been redeemed. He isn't going to turn into Mr. > Rogers! > > > spoiler..... > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > > IMHO, PoA Snape is the closest to canon, in spite of the odd way the > werewolf scene was handled. > Potioncat S P O I L E R S Oooh, Potioncat, I know what you mean. While I disagree that Snape has already been redeemed. I think he is still working on that task, but I can see that him shielding the Trio could be one of those things which JKR thought of as foreshadowing of what would happen in 6 and 7 book. Alla From katroshka at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 00:01:21 2004 From: katroshka at hotmail.com (katroshka) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:01:21 -0000 Subject: Hagrid seeing Thestrals In-Reply-To: <00be01c44b15$8d27d1d0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100139 "Littlekat10" wrote: > I can't recall who said what about Hagrid's seeing Thestrals but > this is my opinion on that subject. Remember that in Chamber of > Secrets Hagrid was sent to Azkaban. I'm thinking that maybe he > saw death while he was incarcerated there. We don't hear a thing > about what he went through while he was forced to be an inmate but > we can theorize that he maybe saw some awful things. Also remember > that as gamekeeper he would have had to see death because animals > under his care could certainly have died. If Hagrid had only seen death at Azkaban, I don't think he had much time to breed the only tame herd in Britain. I think this is kind of an odd point to discuss, considering Hagrid is over 60 years old, and was part of the original Order of the Phoenix, he had ample opportunity to witness death. Also, if witnessing an animal's death would make one see thestrals, then Ron, Hermione, and Neville, and presumably Luna, saw the fake Moody kill the spider in DAtDA class. They would have seen the thestrals at the end of the book. "katroshka" From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 01:39:31 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 01:39:31 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (ESE!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100140 > Pippin wrote: > A falling out indeed. That much of EverSoEvil!Lupin (post 39362) > is canon. There was a time when both James and Sirius > believed that Lupin was the spy--that was why they didn't tell him > about the secret keeper switch. But, oh horrors! what if Lily > couldn't believe it, and to prove her trust, revealed the > secret-keeper switch to ESE!Lupin! He, of course, took it straight > to Voldemort, and asked for Lily's life in exchange, convincing > himself that it was the only way to save her. Besides, if Sirius > was a spy as well, as Lupin seems to have believed, then > Voldemort was going to find out anyway. > > No wonder Lupin was so worried about what Harry overheard > as he relived his parents' deaths. What if Lily had revealed in her > last moments that Lupin knew about the switch! "You heard > James?" indeed! Harry never does tell Lupin that he heard Lily > speaking, does he?...only that he could hear her being > murdered. > > Will Harry have to find a way to endure a Dementor's presence > without passing out or letting it take his soul so that he can at > access all the memories of his mother's death and find out what > she was saying with her last breath? > > And innocent Cuaron thought he was merely taking poetic > license. Hah! Hi everyone, my name is Brenda and this is my first time posting anything.. since I just joined 2 days ago. It seems that there are many perceptive and dedicated HP intellects in this group and I'm very happy for that, heehee. Wow.. I NEVER even imagined Lupin being the bad guy, although it did intrigue me that Sirius had suspected Lupin to be the spy. It is odd since Peter was obviously the one always tailing after them, and he certainly fits the type to do anything for his own protection.. But if James/Sirius are the ONLY friends that Lupin has (he never had a friend before and it seems doubtful that he made new friends after Hogwarts), why would he betray the ONE real friend that he has? And also Dumbledore and Mad-Eye Moody trust him too, as a member of Order.. if Lupin was indeed a spy for Voldemort back then, wouldn't LV have mentioned his name at the end of Goblet - when he called upon his remaining DEs? I think Dumbledore and Moody's magic eye would have caught something if there was anything fishy goin on with Lupin.. I personally thought Lupin sounded more astonished (and perhaps nostalgic about his dead friend) than worried.. "'You heard James?' said Lupin, in a strange voice." (PoA, 178 - UK) I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Another thought, Lupin calls LV "Voldemort" but Peter calls him "The Dark Lord".. I don't think i have heard any DE calling LV "Voldemort" so far. By the way, why did Lupin hold Harry back when Sirius went into the "veil" after Bella's curse? I used to think that he did so to stop Harry from seeing such a horrible sight of Sirius dying (wells I asummed it'd be horrible) but maybe for other reasons? I don't know, I like Lupin, it's bad enough that he has led such a hard life, from people just judging him for what he is, not WHO he is.. and I will be utterly disappointed if Lupin was indeed a bad guy, Rowling said herself that her favorite character was Lupin. So let's keep up with our hopes (or rather, MY hope) that we're not losing more people to the Dark Side than we already have. Brenda From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 01:46:57 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 01:46:57 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100142 Samnanya: > I get REALLY REALLY pissed [as opposed to shedding a tear} > when people here infer that I can't read while it is obvious > that they havent carefully read what I said and worse yet, > quote canon to support their argument when the canon in fact > supports my own... > > ----------------------------------------------------------. > The key word is TEARS as in SHEDDING TEARS > Wiping a wet face is not crying TEARS > Hiding your face in your robes does not infer TEARS > Harry's eyes can still be wet without him shedding a TEAR > JKR can describe a tear quite well when she wants to ... > > If nothing else in this series, JKR has been VERY careful > with her words, far more careful than some people have been > with their reading. JKR has also said many times in many > interviews that EYES are important and I am certain that > she has chosen her words very carefully. AND I am certain > that the scene I referred to in the movie was not shot in > close up by accident. Wells if you are gonna be that pissy and rude about it, I suggest that you read the books more closely. "Harry suddenly realized that there were TEARS on his face mingling with the sweat. He bent his face low as possible, WIPING them off on his robes, pretending to do up his shoelace, so that Lupin wouldn't see." (PoA, 178 - UK) There, you WERE right. JKR can indeed describe a tear quite well when she wants to. And that, definitely, implies that Harry is capable of shedding tears. I think I remember Harry crying in some other scenes, but I can't remember the exact quotes from the books. Brenda From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 02:09:19 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:09:19 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > Here are the other minor things I noticed: > In the first Divinations class, Trelawney turns her gaze on Ron and > seems a little shocked and says something to the effect of "Your aura > is positively pulsing". Hints at Seer Ron?? Yes, I noticed that too! I also wondered when the scene was cut, visible in the Wizard Cards, where Ron says to Harry, 'someone could die being your friend!' Ergh, not again... (another scene apparently cut was where Lupin explains Prongs to Harry. Guess the Wizard Cards were published before final edits). I assume JKR only saw the final, edited version of the film that we saw, right? Hopefully that's just perhaps seer!Ron and not Die!Ron... <:/ aj From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 02:22:57 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:22:57 -0000 Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100144 Hi everyone, I just have a question about something that has been bothering me for a while. It had occurred to me when I was re-reading Order of Phoenix; it was a part where Hermione said that once the Ministry & Daily Prophet believe Dumbledore wasn't so crazy, he will be able to prove Sirius' innocence.. "Sirius hasn't got the Mark for one thing.." And I remember the trials that took place in Dumbledore's Pensieve.. Crouch Jr crying that he wasn't a Death Eater.. and Bagman denying.. Crouch Sr seemed adamant and uptight.. I was thinking, the Ministry could not have known about Death Eaters having the scar etched in their arms, otherwise it would have been a much simpler matter to distinguish the Death Eaters (wells, at least those who claimed that they had no association, as for those who claimed that they were under Imperius Curse, I don't know..). But at the end of Goblet, when Snape showed Fudge his burnt Mark in the hospital wing, Fudge didn't seem surprised in any ways - which led me to believe that Ministry now knows about the DE's scar. Does that mean the Ministry learned about it much after Voldemort's downfall? If they did acquire this much-more-accurate way of distinguishing Death Eaters, why didn't they check Azkaban inmates to make sure that they did have the right people in prison? This bothers me particularly since Sirius could have been cleared, he could have been FREE, and to top it all, he could have lived with Harry.. I have an issue with wrongly-accused people not getting enough compensation as they should, and when that kind of injustice happens to my favorite character.. not a happy combo.. Anyhoo, hope you guys all enjoyed the new HP movie! Brenda From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 02:55:02 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (Leeann McCullough) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 22:55:02 -0400 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? References: Message-ID: <004301c44b71$ae9c6810$4d60ef04@CPQ16151965929> No: HPFGUIDX 100145 Alina: > The goof was that the spells appear from the wand in the order last > to first. So since James was killed first and Lily second, then > Lily's ghost would appear from the wand first and James' second. > But in the earlier editions, James comes out first and says "Your > mother is coming." > > By the way, does anyone know how exactly this was corrected in > later editions? What did Lily say when she appeared first? Pardon me if this is a newbies mistake, but I believe that the "ghosts" came from the wands when Harry and Voldemort's wands created an arc of some sort. Not from the Priori Incantatem charm. I think that charm is to see what was the last charm performed by that particular wand. Like in GOF when Harry's wand was found on Winkie and the Ministry officials used that charm to see if Harry's wand conjured the dark mark. Let me know if I am wrong. Leeann From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 03:39:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:39:26 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100146 Sorry for reposting my own post, but I found too many typos in it. :) I doo know how to spell "Slytherin". really. :o) Alla --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > > Hi, Alla, > > > > I like your posts, so I thought I'd pass along parts of a post I > made > > back in May (#99587). > Alla: > Hi, Anne! Thank you for the compliment. I like your posts too, so I > definitely enjoyed reading this one, especially since I don't > remember reading it first time around. > > > snips first excerpt > Anne wrote: > > [...] > > I'm not sure what JKR means to do with Slytherin in the future. I > > think Harry will indeed have reason to rethink his early judgments. > I > > think JKR's scenario of the perniciousness of labelling people and > of > > the dangers of group mentality is a valid point for her to bring up, > > even though it's more subtle than having "fair" Houses where each > > student is more likely to be judged on his or her own merits. > > > > I also think that some of her dismay at people identifying with > > Slytherin may stem from being worried that they are actually happy > > with the status quo. If she wants to make a point about the way > > Slytherin is sorted, people will miss it if they don't think > > anything's wrong to begin with. She may also not realise how much > > some Slytherin fans may be rooting for the "underdog," which is > > exactly what those students are in a very real sense. > > > > By the way, this is not to let Draco off the hook. True, he is at a > > disadvantage in that both at home and at school his faults have been > > encouraged. His choice, if he ever makes it, to be "good" will > > necessarily be much harder than your average Hufflepuff's choice. He > > may not actually be at heart any more evil to begin with than many > > others who look much better. Still, the choice is ultimately his to > make. > > > Alla: > > > Oh, I don't know. I am hoping that JKR will follow up on bringing the > houses together, but I am not so sure that Harry will have to rethink > his earlier judgements about Slytherin House. > > > I think the best we can hope for is either learning that "pureblood > hatred" was brought to the heart of Slytherin ideology by someone > other than Salasar and he, poor Dear, was simply misunderstood, > imsinterpreted by later generations ( the big problem with this > assumption for me is the Basilisk. It is VERY hard to accept that > Salasar left this monster in the school for something good). The > second possibility is that the majority of Slytherin House will > decide to abandon their "mudblood hating" and dissolve together with > other houses at the end of the books. > > > Can you suggest any other possibilities? > > > > Anne previously: > > > > Besides all that, I don't think Jo means that every Slytherin will > > turn out evil, just as not every evil wizard was a Slytherin. I > just > > think she intends that SSlytherin's choices have resulted in a house > > that turns out noticably more evil wizards. > > > > Somewhere in that post, in a piece I didn't quote, I theorised that > > the 11-year-old Slytherins didn't arrive with any more faults than > the > > rest, but that their faults were uniquely encouraged by their > house. > > This leaves one to wonder why Dumbledore hasn't done something about > > that. Either he's powerless to meddle with the Sorting Hat (though > it > > would seem simple just to leave it in his office), or he believes > that > > the ultimate choice between good and evil lies with the students > > themselves, regardless of where they're sorted. > Alla wrote: > Yes, definite yes. Slytherins superiority complex and racist attitude > thrives in such environment. I don't know why Dumbledore did nothing > yet. > > > > Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 03:53:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:53:50 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > Putting them in the environment, which encourages such > garbage, is idiotic at least. I know, we should blame Sorting Hat > for that. :o) > > > > > > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco > are "lost causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting > Snape aside as the lost cause.< > > > Pippin: > Do you have a source for the quote? I couldn't find it at Quick > Quotes. > > Pippin, I definitely apologise. I did not put "paraphrasing" in my post. I definitely remember her saying something to that effect, but I cannot provide a link. Alla From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Sun Jun 6 03:57:46 2004 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:57:46 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > It seems to me that Lupin believes that Harry shares Lily's ability > to see the beauty in people/things even when they don't themselves. I agree with this, but have a slightly different "take" on it. We know that Harry has his mother's eyes. I think, figuratively speaking, that this can refer to her tender nature. As the saying goes, "eyes are the window into the soul". Kathi kathleenjohnson at juno.com From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 6 04:02:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:02:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100149 | From: Brenda | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 22:23 PM | | Hi everyone, | | I just have a question about something that has been bothering me for | a while. It had occurred to me when I was re-reading Order of | Phoenix; it was a part where Hermione said that once the Ministry & | Daily Prophet believe Dumbledore wasn't so crazy, he will be able to | prove Sirius' innocence.. "Sirius hasn't got the Mark for one thing.." | | And I remember the trials that took place in Dumbledore's Pensieve.. | Crouch Jr crying that he wasn't a Death Eater.. and Bagman denying.. | Crouch Sr seemed adamant and uptight.. I was thinking, the Ministry | could not have known about Death Eaters having the scar etched in | their arms, otherwise it would have been a much simpler matter to | distinguish the Death Eaters (wells, at least those who claimed that | they had no association, as for those who claimed that they were | under Imperius Curse, I don't know..). [Lee]: Hi Brenda, and welcome! :-) If I recall correctly, Karkaroff said that the mark was becoming more noticeable. This says to me that it may have been invisible to the eye when LV was powerless. So, it would have been hard to identify the Death Eaters if the mark couldn't be see. When LV's Dark Mark was sent up in GOF, that hailed the return of the Dark Lord, and, I would surmise, all the death eaters' marks began to show. [Brenda continues]: | But at the end of Goblet, when Snape showed Fudge his burnt Mark in | the hospital wing, Fudge didn't seem surprised in any ways - which | led me to believe that Ministry now knows about the DE's scar. Does | that mean the Ministry learned about it much after Voldemort's | downfall? If they did acquire this much-more-accurate way of | distinguishing Death Eaters, why didn't they check Azkaban inmates to | make sure that they did have the right people in prison? [Lee]: See above. And Snape's mark was fading by the time he showed it to Fudge. If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, please, some expert, give us the quotes. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Sun Jun 6 04:08:25 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:08:25 EDT Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their M... Message-ID: <103.47921fb8.2df3f2b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100150 Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com writes: > was thinking, the Ministry > could not have known about Death Eaters having the scar etched in > their arms, otherwise it would have been a much simpler matter to > distinguish the Death Eaters (wells, at least those who claimed that > they had no association, as for those who claimed that they were > under Imperius Curse, I don't know..). > > But at the end of Goblet, when Snape showed Fudge his burnt Mark in > the hospital wing, Fudge didn't seem surprised in any ways - which > led me to believe that Ministry now knows about the DE's scar. Does > that mean the Ministry learned about it much after Voldemort's > downfall? If they did acquire this much-more-accurate way of > distinguishing Death Eaters, why didn't they check Azkaban inmates to > make sure that they did have the right people in prison? I think something we need to remember is that the ministry, much like our real-life government, is a crooked establishment. Lucius Malfoy owns many people in the ministry--not enough to save everyone, but enough to save a few bad guys and damn a few innocents. Fudge seems more scared of Dumbledore than Voldemort at times. Remember, just because Fudge isn't an outright DE, doesn't mean that he isn't a DE sympathizer who hates muggles and muggles and mudbloods as much as Lucius. I view the ministry the way I view my own (American) government; they're a bunch of powerhungry rich conservative old men with a few progressive thinkers (like Mr. Weasley) who get lost in the cracks and struggle just to make a dent in the world's problems. Call me jaded, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fudge knew Sirius was innocent all along. His pockets are being filled by the likes of Lucius Malfoy, after all. "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune KuteJCLuvr From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Sun Jun 6 04:08:51 2004 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 04:08:51 -0000 Subject: ALINA Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: <004e01c44b2f$9fe38250$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > I don't think we should read into the fact that Daniel Radcliffe doesn't > have green eyes in the movie. I agree. I think it isn't meant to be a literal comparison. In the film (and book), Lily is said to have been kind to others. She saw their worth (Snape, Lupin, etc) even when they couldn't see it for themselves. Harry has her eyes. Her eyes that see into the hearts of others. Color has nothing to do with it, I think. Kathi kathleenjohnson at juno.com From katroshka at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 23:54:57 2004 From: katroshka at hotmail.com (katroshka) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:54:57 -0000 Subject: Harry doesn't see thestrals at end of GoF, but does at start of OotP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100152 It is true that at the end of GoF it says that Hermione looks at the horseless carriages, but wouldn't Harry notice something like that? I mean, it's broad daylight, and he notices them quickly enough in OothP, at night. What's up with this? "katroshka" From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 6 05:13:16 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 01:13:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <1e5.2230c3d9.2df401ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100153 In a message dated 6/5/04 1:06:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: There must have been a falling out, the picture that Moody shows Harry in OOTP has Remus and Sirius sitting apart and away from the James, Lily and Peter. Interesting that Peter is in between James and Lily, I haven't been able to figure out why Peter is sitting in between them. I know why it bothers me, because we do know that Peter betrayed James and Lily to Voldemort and has the dark mark on his arm, this we know from GOF. Peter is the one that is with Voldemort not Sirius, not Remus. Sirius, though not a Slytherin is a pureblood wizard with the same thought that has power as the main attribute, any type of weakness, is contemptible. Sirius knew that Remus had power in him that was equal to his and James, but thought that being a werewolf gave him a desire to be seen a different way and went to Voldemort. Sirius didn't see Peter that way, he didn't realize that even though it took him longer to become an animagus, the fact that Peter was able to do it should have shown Sirius that Peter had the power and would be attracted to Voldemort to be appreciated. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jun 6 05:28:05 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 05:28:05 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100154 Thank you for setting me straight on that count. The reason that I was pissy and rude was that the original response to the argument (which I should have quoted but did not) was ------------------------------ Reread the following pages: *OotP, Page 856 (US) *PS, Page 299 (US) Harry has cried tears before. {name} ------------------------------ If you read those references there was no mention at all of Harry actually shedding tears. Your reference in PoA (p 178 UK, 240 US) is much clearer, harder, if not impossible, to refute, and would NEVER have elicited my rude response. I have no problem with logical arguments and am the first to apologise when I am wrong. That said, Brenda I think I remember Harry crying in some other scenes, but I can't remember the exact quotes from the books. Samnanya No pissiness at all, just please remember that crying is not the same as shedding tears, and I would love to see the references. If I am wrong in those instances, you would save me a lot of time i would be wasting to support an invalid theory. I also found it interesting that, in the scene you referred to, Harry had passed out twice. After the first time (PoA 177) "'Harry!' Harry jerked back to life.... sitting up and feeling cold sweat trickling down behind his glasses." After the second time (PoA 178 as you quoted) "'Harry!Harry... wake up...' Lupin was tapping Harry hard on the face.....Harry suddenly realized that there were tears on his face mingling with the sweat." I wonder why Lupin used that method to revive Harry as opposed to shaking his shoulders. Would you wake a sleeping person by poking their face? Just a thought..... ================================================================ Brenda wrote : > (quoting Samnanya) > I get REALLY REALLY pissed [as opposed to shedding a tear} > > when people here infer that I can't read while it is obvious > > that they havent carefully read what I said and worse yet, > > quote canon to support their argument when the canon in fact > > supports my own... > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------. > > The key word is TEARS as in SHEDDING TEARS > > Wiping a wet face is not crying TEARS > > Hiding your face in your robes does not infer TEARS > > Harry's eyes can still be wet without him shedding a TEAR > > > JKR can describe a tear quite well when she wants to ... > > > > If nothing else in this series, JKR has been VERY careful > > with her words, far more careful than some people have been > > with their reading. JKR has also said many times in many > > interviews that EYES are important and I am certain that > > she has chosen her words very carefully. AND I am certain > > that the scene I referred to in the movie was not shot in > > close up by accident. > > > Wells if you are gonna be that pissy and rude about it, I suggest > that you read the books more closely. > > "Harry suddenly realized that there were TEARS on his face mingling > with the sweat. He bent his face low as possible, WIPING them off on > his robes, pretending to do up his shoelace, so that Lupin wouldn't > see." (PoA, 178 - UK) > > There, you WERE right. JKR can indeed describe a tear quite well > when she wants to. And that, definitely, implies that Harry is > capable of shedding tears. I think I remember Harry crying in some > other scenes, but I can't remember the exact quotes from the books. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 08:44:04 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 08:44:04 -0000 Subject: ALINA Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100155 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Sigh. I'm senile. I used to be able to make myself understood, but that was before I hit 55. Actually, that was the point I was trying to make: that the close-up of Dan Racliffe's not-green eyes was a clue to the nature of Harry's resemblance to his mother; that it is not the striking *physical* resemblance that will turn out to be key. And in a general way, I think we are being told not to take things so literally. JDR, who insists that you can't have a proper Harry Potter movie without a Quidditch game. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sun Jun 6 09:43:10 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:43:10 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > Thank you for setting me straight on that count. The reason > that I was pissy and rude was that the original response to > the argument (which I should have quoted but did not) was > ------------------------------ > Reread the following pages: > *OotP, Page 856 (US) > *PS, Page 299 (US) > > Harry has cried tears before. > {name} > ------------------------------ > > If you read those references there was no mention at all of > Harry actually shedding tears. > Your reference in PoA (p 178 UK, 240 US) is much clearer, > harder, if not impossible, to refute, and would NEVER have > elicited my rude response. I have no problem with logical > arguments and am the first to apologise when I am wrong. > Snip > I also found it interesting that, in the scene you referred > to, Harry had passed out twice. > > After the first time (PoA 177) > "'Harry!' > Harry jerked back to life.... sitting up and > feeling cold sweat trickling down behind his glasses." > > After the second time (PoA 178 as you quoted) > "'Harry!Harry... wake up...' > Lupin was tapping Harry hard on the face.....Harry > suddenly realized that there were tears on his face > mingling with the sweat." > > I wonder why Lupin used that method to revive Harry as > opposed to shaking his shoulders. Would you wake a sleeping > person by poking their face? Just a thought..... > > Jo here I really like Samnanya's theory and hadn't thought about this particular aspect before. It is difficult because 'close' reading can become 'hair splitting' reading and provides an excellent opportunity to turn 'active' reading into fan fiction! However, that won't stop me putting in my twopenny worth! I haven't seen the film so I'm not qualified to comment on the 'Harry no actual tears' scene but ..... close up shots are used with extreme caution, specifically to highlight a response or emotional, inner state, in b/w movies they used glycerine to fake tears and I believe still do, I imagine now they could cgi a couple if required, I find it hard to believe they were simply too lazy to deal with this in POA the movie. So I'm with Samnanya on this one. Taking the text and various references to crying, I see no reason why Harry might be becoming less able to shed tears over time, given that this is a tale of growth and change and as he becomes more affected by his inner snake. Also why he might not shed tears when unconscious but not when conscious, which would explain the Lupin reference. By the by I take Lupin tapping Harry's face (specifically not poking) to mean some sort of reviving charm. What I'd like to know is if Samnanya's observation is correct what does it mean? In the next book Harry will be dealing with grief, if he can't shed a tear what difference does this make? Is it simply a physical expression of Harry's inner state or does it have plot implications as with the Phoenix tears? Also is it really true that Snakes don't cry? Like turtles and owls (interesting!) they do not have eyelids but does that mean they have no tear ducts? Snakes lick their eyes so do we have any tongue references!!!!? BTW snakes can still kill you when they are dead, because of their muscle structure a dead snake still has many of the reflexes it had when it was alive. Regards Jo From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 6 11:31:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 11:31:15 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: <97.48eaef9a.2df3751a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100157 KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > > > I also can't help thinking that *if* Snape is a vampire, Hermione already > knows. Hermione knew right away that Lupin was a werewolf from the essay Snape > made them write, so when Lupin made them write the vampire essay, she would > have figured it out if it were true. That said, if it *is* true and she *does* > know that Snape is a werewolf, then why would she keep that from her friends? > She didn't tell Lupin's secret, but she *liked* Lupin. If she is hiding this, > what else could she be hiding? Hermione tends to know so much more than she > lets on. I can't help thinking she knows what the bat clues mean. She *is* > JKR's voice, afterall... > > Potioncat: I think Hermione knows something about Snape that she hasn't told. In at least OoP, she seems to defend him from time to time. As you said, she has been known to keep things from the boys. IMHO, whatever she knows has either made her trust him or pity him. Potioncat who tips her hat to Pippin for reviving the vampire controversy. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun Jun 6 12:09:54 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:09:54 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > Moonmyyst wrote: > > I am rereading GoF and I was wondering if anyone was able to > > figure out how Fred and George were able to figure out that Ireland > > would win over Bulgaria but that Krum would get the snitch? > > In Chapter 7 of The Goblet of Fire Mr. Weasley sends Ron, > Hermione and Harry to get water while the rest gather wood. > > Then in Chapter 9 when the Death Eaters are on the March, Ron > Hermione and Harry get separated from Fred, George and Ginny. It is > possible that one of the twins had a time turner and used it at this > time. All they would have had to do is say how the Quidditch match > ended and then the twins in Chapter 7 could place the bet that the > twins in chapter 9 told them to make. > > mikefeemster AmanitaMuscaria now - The problem with Mike's answer is, why on earth would anyone in the wizarding world take bets? Goblins, we hear, are not stupid; Bagman may be. But I can't imagine people who bet wouldn't have worked out that some bets, though unlikely, come in at very good odds. Even if Bagman doesn't know about Time Turners, he seems to be a betting man. Unless this was his first foray into taking bets, which I don't believe as he seemed to have a good idea of how to go about it, he must have known something fishy was going on with such a very specific bet. I have the same problem with Fudge and Snape (sorry, Professor Snape) not picking up on Dumbledore's little dig about Harry and Hermione being in two places at once - even if Fudge is a bit dim, Snape certainly isn't and Time Turners would be just the sort of thing he'd have read about, I'd think. Unless, of course, the things don't actually come from the Ministry but have been developed outside of the MoM, by, perhaps, two very powerful wizards working in partnership (AD and NF)? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 13:29:45 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:29:45 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100161 > > Alla: > > > > > > Oh, I don't know. I am hoping that JKR will follow up on bringing > the > > houses together, but I am not so sure that Harry will have to > rethink > > his earlier judgements about Slytherin House. > > > > > > I think the best we can hope for is either learning that "pureblood > > hatred" was brought to the heart of Slytherin ideology by someone > > other than Salasar and he, poor Dear, was simply misunderstood, > > imsinterpreted by later generations ( the big problem with this > > assumption for me is the Basilisk. It is VERY hard to accept that > > Salasar left this monster in the school for something good). The > > second possibility is that the majority of Slytherin House will > > decide to abandon their "mudblood hating" and dissolve together > with > > other houses at the end of the books. > > > > > > Can you suggest any other possibilities? Annemehr: You're asking *me?* The problem is, Jo keeps taking left turns in her plots that take me by surprise... But I'm thinking of the Sorting Hat's new song calling for unity between the houses and Harry's reaction to it: "And it wants all the Houses to be friends?" said Harry, looking over at the Slytherin table, where Draco Malfoy was holding court. "Fat chance." It seems like Draco Malfoy *is* Slytherin House as far as Harry is concerned; Harry doesn't even know the names of half the Slytherins he's been in classes with for four years. The theme of unity began in GoF and continues in OoP: between schools, between magical beings, and indeed between school houses (Hogwarts was meant to unite behind its School Champions during the TWT, to start with). I just think Harry is going to find some sort of ally from within Slytherin House, and probably also come to some working relationship with Snape (which I'm hoping is quite awkward -- I don't want to spoil all the fun!). As far as what may be done about the House system at the end, I really have no idea. I don't even know who will be Headmaster after Lord Thingy's defeat. I do think the Slytherin traits the Hat looks for are all Salazar's preference. Perhaps the right Head of House could redirect the students onto more constructive paths than Malfoy's? They could be the type A movers and shakers of the WW; but what can be done about that "pureblood" thing? Annemehr who's seeing the movie today -- woo hoo! -- and then will have a lot of "spoiler" posts to catch up on From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 13:51:13 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:51:13 -0000 Subject: ALINA Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100162 The Sergeant Majorette says: . Actually, that was the point I was trying to make: that the close-up of Dan Racliffe's not-green eyes was a clue to the nature of Harry's resemblance to his mother; that it is not the striking *physical* resemblance that will turn out to be key. And in a general way, I think we are being told not to take things so literally. Neri: I might be goofing now because I didn't bother to see the movie (I suspect it hinders more than helping with understanding the book) but I think the point could still be literal, physical resemblance. That is, the point is not if Harry has green or blue eyes, but that his eyes, whatever color they are, are like his mother eyes. So in the book Harry's and Lily's eyes are green, and in the movie they are blue, but in each case Harry has his mother's eyes. The Sergeant Majorette signed: JDR, who insists that you can't have a proper Harry Potter movie without a Quidditch game. Neri (appalled): No Quidditch in the movie??? This is vile indeed. But I guess we'll get the Quidditch scenes in the DVD. Neri From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 13:53:16 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:53:16 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100163 Bonny wrote: The way the shots were set up also said a lot to me. Throughout the film, we see Harry as seperate from Ron and Hermione. The best frame in which to see this is when Hagrid is skipping rocks. There is a close up of his head, taking up all the screen except the two upper corners. R and Her. are in one, and Harry is in the other. There are also other instances, in which R and Her. are dressed in colours, and Harry walks beside them dressed all in black. We also see images of Harry, dressed in black, standing behind an onimously ticking clock. A ticking time bomb, perhaps? And, finally for now because supper is ready, we see many instances of Harry examining his reflection, and it appearing dark. He looks at his reflection in the window of the train, and in the lake, and it looks very creepy. Maybe Harry will be forced to examine his dark side more thoroughly. vmonte responds: I noticed the same things! The groupings, Harry's reflection, the creepy pendulum. Harry is often separated from his friends and cut- off from living. Even when he can join his friends at Hogsmeade he can not be seen; he must wear a cloak, and be undercover. Harry is always looking at life from the outside. He observes people live, yet he does not really live. He seems to be always reminded that he is the "other." He has moments of unity with his friends but in the end JKR always makes us know that he is not like them. Harry does not have intimate interactions with Hermione, at least not like Ron does. (The sexual tension in the movie is between Ron and Hermione, not Harry and Hermione.) But aside from the movie... The only person that has experiences remotely in common with Harry is Ginny. Why did JKR add this character? Remember the scene where Sirius chases the Hogwarts train (in dog form)? Well, Ginny also chases the train in SS/PS. Sirius loved Harry but could not keep up with him, I wonder Ginny will be able to. vmonte From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 14:23:20 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 14:23:20 -0000 Subject: Harry doesn't see thestrals at end of GoF, but does at start of OotP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katroshka" wrote: > It is true that at the end of GoF it says that Hermione looks at the > horseless carriages, but wouldn't Harry notice something like that? I > mean, it's broad daylight, and he notices them quickly enough in > OothP, at night. What's up with this? > > "katroshka" Check JKR's interviews. She gives her reasons for not wanting to throw the Thestrals in at the last ten pages of GoF. Meri From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 14:26:00 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 14:26:00 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100165 vmonte here: Regarding the tears scene: The scene might have originally been filmed without Harry crying, but with him just being upset/mad. The director may have later decided that Harry did not appear as upset as he should have, and requested that the crying sounds be added during the film editing. Since Harry was not visible under the cloak, adding crying noises is easy. Unfortunately, they should have added tears to his face as well. This type of thing happens all the time. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 14:41:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 14:41:45 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100166 vmonte here: Did anyone else find Draco's character to be unbelievable in PoA? Draco and gang were more like the three stooges. He was difficult to watch. vmonte From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 14:46:46 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 14:46:46 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100167 - > > Potioncat: > > > > > Snape has already been redeemed. He isn't going to turn into Mr. > > Rogers! > > > > > > spoiler..... > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > > > IMHO, PoA Snape is the closest to canon, in spite of the odd way > the > > werewolf scene was handled. > > Potioncat > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > > > > > > > Alla: > Oooh, Potioncat, I know what you mean. While I disagree that Snape > has already been redeemed. I think he is still working on that task, > but I can see that him shielding the Trio could be one of those > things which JKR thought of as foreshadowing of what would happen in > 6 and 7 book. Susan (teilani): Come on you two, please elaborate. So you mean when I see the movie, in the scene after Remus transforms Snape does something that makes him seem redeemable to Potioncat and makes Alla think that it's a foreshadowing of a future redemption for Snape? What I mean is, that _particular_ scene is what we're talking about? I know we discussed this part of the book because Snape took everyone to DD rather than turning Sirius over to the dementors, so that's why I'm asking. Thanks, Susan :-) From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 14:46:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 14:46:03 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100168 Sherry wrote: I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in the book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was already in Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name because Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by Crookshanks, we don't know where he was, except that he ended up in a bottle in Hagrid's hut on the fateful day. I think he must have been off the grounds in some way every time Harry looked at the map, otherwise, Harry would have seen his name. Unless Harry just wasn't looking in the right place, being focused on who might catch him sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the grounds. If that makes any sense. vmonte responds: Speaking of Hagrid, it really came off in the movie that Harry is specifically being targeted and trained by DD through the teachers at the school. The movie made it more apparent in the way Harry was thrown on Buckbeak by Hagrid. I think that this is the first book/movie in which Hermione is targeted as well. The children are given seemingly innocent situations in which important items are presented: Minerva gives Hermione the time-turner. Lessons are learned: Lupin teaches Harry how to thwart dementors. And important animals are introduced: Hagrid makes sure that Harry is acquainted with Buckbeak. My prediction for book 6 is that the teachers will target Ron. I'm thinking that Ron's strategist skills are going to be tapped in the next book! By the way, you can also add Snape into the DD equation. Snape seems to be everywhere, always lurking about. I liked the way he protected the children during the werewolf scene in the movie. Is his job simply to protect? Or, is DD targeting Snape in the same way he instructs Harry. What I mean is that perhaps DD is trying to teach Snape something. Maybe DD is helping Snape to get over his hatred of James by forcing him to deal with Harry. The more these two have to work together the more they are going to learn about each other. Harry felt compassion for Snape during the penseive scene in OOTP. Did Snape feel compassion for Harry as well? Someone suggested that perhaps the talk with the Dursley's at the end of OOTP had to do with Snape's intervention. I really hope so. vmonte From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 6 15:02:27 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Jun 2004 15:02:27 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1086534147.24.49538.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100169 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 6, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 15:30:13 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 15:30:13 -0000 Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100170 Brenda wrote: > I just have a question about something that has been bothering me for > a while. It had occurred to me when I was re-reading Order of > Phoenix; it was a part where Hermione said that once the Ministry & > Daily Prophet believe Dumbledore wasn't so crazy, he will be able to > prove Sirius' innocence.. "Sirius hasn't got the Mark for one thing.." > > And I remember the trials that took place in Dumbledore's Pensieve.. > Crouch Jr crying that he wasn't a Death Eater.. and Bagman denying.. > Crouch Sr seemed adamant and uptight.. I was thinking, the Ministry > could not have known about Death Eaters having the scar etched in > their arms, otherwise it would have been a much simpler matter to > distinguish the Death Eaters (wells, at least those who claimed that > they had no association, as for those who claimed that they were > under Imperius Curse, I don't know..). > > But at the end of Goblet, when Snape showed Fudge his burnt Mark in > the hospital wing, Fudge didn't seem surprised in any ways - which > led me to believe that Ministry now knows about the DE's scar. Does > that mean the Ministry learned about it much after Voldemort's > downfall? If they did acquire this much-more-accurate way of > distinguishing Death Eaters, why didn't they check Azkaban inmates to > make sure that they did have the right people in prison? > > This bothers me particularly since Sirius could have been cleared, he > could have been FREE, and to top it all, he could have lived with > Harry.. I have an issue with wrongly-accused people not getting > enough compensation as they should, and when that kind of injustice > happens to my favorite character.. not a happy combo.. Earendil: Putting aside the problem of the Dark Mark fading that Lee brought up in another post, and assuming that the Ministry knows about the existence of the Dark Mark... The presence of the Dark Mark could be used to prove a connection to Deatheaters. But its absence can't prove somenone's innocence. It's likely that some unsuspected followers of LV don't bear the Mark. We know Deatheaters do. But what about the others? What about the less- involved-but-still-supporting-LV ones? In other words: the presence of the Dark Mark is a clue in favour of accusation. The absence of the Dark Mark is not a clue in favour of defense, but rather the absence of a clue that would be in favour of accusation. Anyway, back to the example of Sirius, apart from the whole Potter & Fidelius issue, he was also convicted for Peter's murder. The facts indicated that he *had* killed Peter and a dozen of Muggles. Dark Mark or no Dark Mark, he would have been sent to Azkaban either way, though I'm convinced that a proper trial could have changed the outcome. Earendil. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 6 15:44:23 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 15:44:23 -0000 Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" wrote: > Earendil: > > Putting aside the problem of the Dark Mark fading that Lee brought up in another post, and assuming that the Ministry knows about the existence of the Dark Mark... > > The presence of the Dark Mark could be used to prove a connection to Deatheaters. < If Voldemort wanted to frame someone, he could probably brand them with a fake, or get his servants in the ministry to say that someone had the Dark Mark when they didn't. But I believe that the Dark Marks faded immediately when Voldemort discorporated. Something had to have happened to make Dumbledore sure that Voldemort's power had broken. Snape's mark fading would be a good clue. Pippin who now has a totally incongruous mental image of Snape capering about like Smeagol chanting "Gone! Gone! Gone!!!"...sorry about that, had to share From sarahmint at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 06:34:57 2004 From: sarahmint at yahoo.com (sarahmint at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 06:34:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny loss Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100172 I was looking at the site http://weasleylove.homestead.com/Evidence.html to learn more about the Harry-Ginny love for the future, and it actually turned me down to my hopes that they would get together in the future. What are your comments? Luna Lovegood is a name in itself. JKR makes characters with name's worth of meaning. At the end of the book, Harry felt a world closer to Luna. From SinfulSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 6 07:23:32 2004 From: SinfulSnape at aol.com (SinfulSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 03:23:32 EDT Subject: Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl Message-ID: <1ac.252f3661.2df42074@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100173 I'm writing a fic and I need some help...if someone was able to interpret these answers for the book, or even offer opinions, I would be grateful. Now we know there are prefects beginning in their 5th year a boy and a girl from each house. 1) Do the prefects stay the same for the 6th year? 2) In 7th year, there are is a Head Boy and a Head Girl - But is there just one of each overall? And do the others (the one that were prefects) stay prefects or does the 7th year only have a Head Boy and a Head Girl! Anyones thoughts or opinions is welcome on this to help me along with my story! ~Rhonda~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 12:10:43 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:10:43 -0000 Subject: Clues to books 6&7 in POA (spoilers and clues) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100174 Vmonte wrote: (snip) >Why did they change what happened in Trelawny's class? In the movie >Trelawny tells Hermione that she has the soul of an old maid. >Where did that come from? And why say that in particular? Is it >foreshadowing Ron's death (if you believe in the Hermione/Ron ship)? >Also if Ron=DD, does Hermione=MM? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Leah, in strictly not serious vein writes: Does this mean Trelawny herself is not an old maid? What is her passionate past? Is she one of the married teachers of whose existence JKR once hinted? Is this why DD is so keen she remains at Hogwarts? And I have to confess I've always wondered about Hermione= MM since I first came across the Ron=DD theory, based IIRC on the game of chess played in PS/SS. But Ron is only knocked out of play in the chess- it's Hermione who gets sent back via the potions in the next task. Leah From LWalshETAL at aol.com Sun Jun 6 16:04:08 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:04:08 -0400 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins Message-ID: <54B4D2FA.3EC9DA5C.0B739079@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100175 > Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:08:56 -0000 > From: "Susan" >> The only thing that bothers me about this is that it goes back to the pure speculation that LV did something *personally* to Snape, which seems to inevitably bring us back to him having a family or love life (and of course, the twins;-), which I just cannot picture. I totally agree that there obviously has to be some kind of motivation for Snape to stop being a DE, and I can't wait to find out what that is, but until JKR TELLS me outright that Snape lost his lover/family to LV and the DEs, I just won't believe it.<< One of the few things we see that we KNOW Snape loves is his own magical power. What if the reason Snape stopped being a DE was because of a threat to lose his power? Not being very creative in this respect, I can't think of a reason why Voldy would try to strip Snape of his magical powers, but I imagine other people can. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 16:12:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 16:12:04 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. movie SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > - > > > Potioncat: > > > > > > > > Snape has already been redeemed. He isn't going to turn into Mr. > > > Rogers! > > > > > > > > > spoiler..... > > > s > > > p > > > o > > > i > > > l > > > e > > > r > > > > > > IMHO, PoA Snape is the closest to canon, in spite of the odd way > > the > > > werewolf scene was handled. > > > Potioncat > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alla: > > Oooh, Potioncat, I know what you mean. While I disagree that Snape > > has already been redeemed. I think he is still working on that > task, > > but I can see that him shielding the Trio could be one of those > > things which JKR thought of as foreshadowing of what would happen > in > > 6 and 7 book. > > > Susan (teilani): > Come on you two, please elaborate. So you mean when I see the movie, > in the scene after Remus transforms Snape does something that makes > him seem redeemable to Potioncat and makes Alla think that it's a > foreshadowing of a future redemption for Snape? What I mean is, that > _particular_ scene is what we're talking about? I know we discussed > this part of the book because Snape took everyone to DD rather than > turning Sirius over to the dementors, so that's why I'm asking. > > Thanks, > Susan :-) LOL! Sorry about being ambiguous, Susan! I am just not sure how much of movie references is allowed here. I don't want to speak for Potioncat, but maybe she thought about that too. Have you seen movie yet? If not spoiler follows Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Snape shields the Trio from transformed Remus. Since this is not in Canon, I hope that JKR approved of that scene being there. No, I still don't think that Snape is a good person (loyalty to Dumbledore alone does not make him so, IMO. I surely want more), but at least now I almost don't have to worry that Snape will turn out to be ESE! at the end. Alla From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 16:33:47 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 16:33:47 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100177 > Bonny wrote: > > The way the shots were set up also said a lot to me. Throughout the > film, we see Harry as seperate from Ron and Hermione. The best frame > in which to see this is when Hagrid is skipping rocks. There is a > close up of his head, taking up all the screen except the two upper > corners. R and Her. are in one, and Harry is in the other. There are > also other instances, in which R and Her. are dressed in colours, > and Harry walks beside them dressed all in black. We also see images > of Harry, dressed in black, standing behind an onimously ticking > clock. A ticking time bomb, perhaps? And, finally for now because > supper is ready, we see many instances of Harry examining his > reflection, and it appearing dark. He looks at his reflection in the > window of the train, and in the lake, and it looks very creepy. > Maybe Harry will be forced to examine his dark side more thoroughly. > > vmonte responds: > > I noticed the same things! The groupings, Harry's reflection, the > creepy pendulum. Harry is often separated from his friends and cut- > off from living. Even when he can join his friends at Hogsmeade he > can not be seen; he must wear a cloak, and be undercover. Harry is > always looking at life from the outside. He observes people live, > yet he does not really live. He seems to be always reminded that he > is the "other." He has moments of unity with his friends but in the > end JKR always makes us know that he is not like them. Harry does > not have intimate interactions with Hermione, at least not like Ron > does. (The sexual tension in the movie is between Ron and Hermione, > not Harry and Hermione.) > But aside from the movie... > The only person that has experiences remotely in common with Harry is > Ginny. Why did JKR add this character? Remember the scene where > Sirius chases the Hogwarts train (in dog form)? Well, Ginny also > chases the train in SS/PS. Sirius loved Harry but could not keep up > with him, I wonder Ginny will be able to. > > vmonte Susan (teilani): This really makes me think about what all you posters have said about the last book and the prophecy. Paraphrase: for one to live the other must die. K, I know that wasn't exact. What I'm saying is that lots of you already pointed out that Harry's hardly living these days, and really he's getting more and more withdrawn and melancholy. Maybe these movie scenes are some of the indicators that JKR was talking about re: 6&7. Like Bonny says, perhaps he has to examine his dark side and get out of his funk before he'll even be strong enough mentally and magically to destroy LV. Once he does that, I would imagine a great burden will be lifted from him (well, duh)and he can have that family and home life he wants (Ginny?! OBHWF?!). I mean, at the Dursleys', he's always going to be an outsider because he's a wizard. But in the WW, he's THE Harry Potter. He's not only supposed to fit in, he's _supposed_ to be this great hero. Now, I'm definitely familiar with super heroes, and I realize that they normally have to be outsiders to protect their identity, but that's not the case here. HP can't go into a phone booth, rip open his shirt, and reveal his powerful, magical scar and set about kicking $^%. Everyone already knows he's Harry Potter. This also makes me think of "Unbreakable". If anyone here's seen that movie, the hero has to come to terms with his powers and his life before he can go about saving innocents, yeah, but more importantly, he has to do so specifically so he can be able to fight the big baddie, his _opposite_. So, in PoA movie, we get scenes showing Harry as isolated and introspective, perhaps foreshadowing the internal struggle he must face before he can confront the major external struggle with LV. Whadda ya think? Susan (who knows this post is a bit all over the place, but didn't get much sleep last night ;-) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jun 6 17:16:44 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:16:44 -0400 Subject: Severus, Fudge, and the Time Turner WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Twin's Bet Message-ID: <70353E54.57E26BAE.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100178 AmanitaMuscaria: >I have the same problem with Fudge and Snape (sorry, Professor Snape) >not picking up on Dumbledore's little dig about Harry and Hermione >being in two places at once - even if Fudge is a bit dim, Snape >certainly isn't and Time Turners would be just the sort of thing he'd >have read about, I'd think. Oryomai: IMO, Fudge was a bit too worried about Sirius Black escaping (not so much the escape, but how it would affect his political stance) to pick up on the sly comments of Dumbledore. Severus, on the other hand, knows. But there's not much Severus can do, is there? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any times when Severus has defied Dumbledore to his face (to his face being the key phrase there). Fudge is the leader, he probably doesn't get involved with the Time Turner system. Severus is smart enough to figure it out, but I doubt that he would say anything. Severus needs Dumbledore too much. Oryomai --Who saw the movie yesterday! From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 17:18:29 2004 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:18:29 -0000 Subject: Getting it wrong. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > Somebody's got to be wrong - stands to reason. > But is it you, me or the others? > It's the others of course, bound to be. > much as I hate to.... > That covers most of it, I think. What? Us? Whaddaya mean, "Us"? No, > no, don't worry. We can't be wrong. It'll be the others - you'll see. > > Kneasy Heather says: LOL - so eloquently put Kneasy. LOVE IT!! From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 6 17:26:51 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:26:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry doesn't see thestrals at end of GoF, but does at start of OotP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100180 | From: katroshka | Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 19:55 PM | | It is true that at the end of GoF it says that Hermione looks at the | horseless carriages, but wouldn't Harry notice something like that? I | mean, it's broad daylight, and he notices them quickly enough in | OothP, at night. What's up with this? [Lee]: Well, for one reason, perhaps JKR didn't want to introduce thestrals until OOTP. :-) One can probably speculate that Harry is still processing Cedric's death and hasn't come to full realization/acceptance. So he's not open enough to see the thestrals. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 17:44:00 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:44:00 -0000 Subject: Severus, Fudge, and the Time Turner WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: <70353E54.57E26BAE.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100181 > > Oryomai: > IMO, Fudge was a bit too worried about Sirius Black escaping (not so much the escape, but how it would affect his political stance) to pick up on the sly comments of Dumbledore. Severus, on the other hand, knows. But there's not much Severus can do, is there? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any times when Severus has defied Dumbledore to his face (to his face being the key phrase there). Fudge is the leader, he probably doesn't get involved with the Time Turner system. Severus is smart enough to figure it out, but I doubt that he would say anything. Severus needs Dumbledore too much. > > Oryomai > --Who saw the movie yesterday! That part always pleased me, just because I figured Snape DID know, just couldn't do anything about it except fume over Sirius (And HRH) pulling one over on him. Since you saw the movie yesterday, how did Rickman play that part? Was he tongue-tied with rage? If so, that would make me really happy in a rather sadistic way ;-) Susan (teilani) From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Sun Jun 6 17:17:01 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:17:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry/Ginny loss Message-ID: <1eb.22436012.2df4ab8d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100182 sarahmint at yahoo.com writes: > Luna Lovegood is a name in itself. JKR makes characters with name's > worth of meaning. At the end of the book, Harry felt a world closer > to Luna. I think that the Ginny/Harry think was a childhood crush. I see them more as good friends. Harry clearly views her as a sister, as he is close with Weasley family--especially the four youngest Weasleys. The possibilities of Harry/Luna appeared to me as I was reading OotP the first time. They have a lot in common, as shown straight away with the thestrals. By the end of the book, I found myself liking the prospects of Harry/Luna. With the possibilities of Ron/Hermione showing up later and Harry feeling left out, it's likely that he will find a new person to spend some time with and it will likely be either Ginny or Luna (I'm playing it's not Neville...). I doubt you can find much canon evidence for Harry/Luna yet, but their characters just had this great chemistry that Harry and Ginny lacked due to Ginny's innability to speak in his presence for a good two or three years. Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Sun Jun 6 17:41:33 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:41:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4666 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100183 In a message dated 06/06/2004 9:10:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I think the best we can hope for is either learning that "pureblood hatred" was brought to the heart of Slyhterin ideology by someone other than Salasar and he, poor Dear, was simply misunderstood, imsinterpreted by later generations ( the big problem with this assumption for me is the Basilisk. It is VERY hard to accept that Salasar left this monster in the school for something good). > Can you suggest any other possibilities? --- Jo Ann: I maintain that it is possible the Basilisk was also put in the Chamber later--even the Chamber itself could conceivably have been built after Salazar's time. A thousand years is a long time for facts to get mixed up or intentionally obscured. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 17:57:24 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:57:24 -0000 Subject: What happened at the Longbottoms? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100184 I was pondering the character of Neville the other night (as a consequence of being out of school my mind has very much free time) and wondering what happened the night his parents (and possibly Neville himself) were tortured by the LeStranges and Barty Crouch for information about LV's whereabouts. I was wondering why there was so much confusion about what happened that night. I understand that poor Frank and Alice were in no condition to give any evidence against their attackers, but I am wondering how the Death Eaters themselves were caught. If they were caught in the act, say at the Longbottom's home, then the matter would have been very simple to clear up. Just Proir Incantatem their wands and see what pops out, right? But there seemed to be some doubts in GoF, especially regarding Barty Crouch's involvement. If they weren't found at the house, and Frank and Alice were too incapacitated then how were the Death Eaters ever caught? Could Neville, young as he was, have borne witness to his folks' torture and somehow had those memories retreived from his mind? Is a Pensieve usable on a baby? And could this, and not some mysterious memory charm, account for ever so forgetful Neville? Any theories about that fatefull night? Cause I've got nothing. Meri - who is determined to figure out Neville before JKR tells us everything... From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 6 18:27:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 18:27:57 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100185 watch out for spoilers Go back................. Spoilers around the bend............. Potioncat snipped 2 posts for Susan (teilani)'s question: > Susan (teilani): > Come on you two, please elaborate. So you mean when I see the movie, > in the scene after Remus transforms Snape does something that makes > him seem redeemable to Potioncat and makes Alla think that it's a > foreshadowing of a future redemption for Snape? What I mean is, that > _particular_ scene is what we're talking about? I know we discussed > this part of the book because Snape took everyone to DD rather than > turning Sirius over to the dementors, so that's why I'm asking. > Potioncat: Oh, I think I'd best backtrack...an earlier post in this thread (book, not movie) commented on Sytherin House being redeemed. As I read the conversations, it seemed that readers were expecting everyone in the house to be redeemed; or else were discussing how particular members could or could not be redeemed. IMHO, by the fact that he has been accepted back by DD means Snape has been redeemed. And that being redeemed doesnt' mean you become "nice." As a side comment, I was saying that the PoA movie Snape's behavior is more like the book Snape than in the previous movies. Although his particular scenes are not as written in the book. But at least the movies havent' added twins.... ;-) Potioncat From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 18:53:41 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 18:53:41 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100186 "potioncat" < wrote: > watch out for spoilers > > > > > Go back................. > > > > > > > Spoilers around the bend............. > > > > > Potioncat snipped 2 posts for Susan (teilani)'s question: > > Susan (teilani): > > Come on you two, please elaborate. So you mean when I see the > movie, > > in the scene after Remus transforms Snape does something that makes > > him seem redeemable to Potioncat and makes Alla think that it's a > > foreshadowing of a future redemption for Snape? What I mean is, > that > > _particular_ scene is what we're talking about? I know we > discussed > > this part of the book because Snape took everyone to DD rather than > > turning Sirius over to the dementors, so that's why I'm asking. > > > > > Potioncat: > Oh, I think I'd best backtrack...an earlier post in this thread > (book, not movie) commented on Sytherin House being redeemed. As I > read the conversations, it seemed that readers were expecting > everyone in the house to be redeemed; or else were discussing how > particular members could or could not be redeemed. IMHO, by the fact > that he has been accepted back by DD means Snape has been redeemed. > And that being redeemed doesnt' mean you become "nice." > > As a side comment, I was saying that the PoA movie Snape's behavior > is more like the book Snape than in the previous movies. Although > his particular scenes are not as written in the book. > > But at least the movies havent' added twins.... ;-) > Potioncat K, I finally get it. The _original_ redemption of Snape. I can't wait to find out what the deal is with that, particularly since it doesn't seem easy to quit being a DE. Sometimes I get confused about that because of Snape's relationship to Harry, that I keep thinking people want Snape to be redeemed in *Harry's* eyes. He's obviously been redeemed in DD's (and the other Profs at Hogwarts) but to us readers, HRH, the rest of the Marauders (ok, just Remus now)he needs to do some Sirius explaining (IMHO). RE: Snape in the movie and Snape in the book... I'm currently re reading the series(4x for all but OoP), though this time I'm taking notes (yes, notes...). However, since I am taking notes, I'm not too far along yet. All these Vamp references to Snape really strike me as interesting, and although I'm not one of the posters who believe Snape's a vamp, the several references to his vamp-like qualities that the movie seems to highlight really have me thinking about it now. Someone, in an unrelated post, suggested that perhaps Snape's a bat animagus. I believe it was a different poster who said that Herm might know something about Snape that she's not telling. Could this be it?! She saw the list of registered animagi... The reason I ask is because when I first joined this group, lots of posters were quoting JKR's descriptions of him as being very much like a vamp/bat. Any insights? Susan (teilani) who's grateful that Cuaron doesn't know about Snape's twins! From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 19:14:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 19:14:10 -0000 Subject: Severus, Fudge, and the Time Turner WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100187 Susan wrote: That part always pleased me, just because I figured Snape DID know, just couldn't do anything about it except fume over Sirius (And HRH) pulling one over on him. Since you saw the movie yesterday, how did Rickman play that part? Was he tongue-tied with rage? If so, that would make me really happy in a rather sadistic way ;-) vmonte responds: Do you really want to know? scroll down They cut this entire bit from the movie! Snape and Fudge do not appear in the hospital wing at the end of PoA at all. DD gives the kids the time-turner, they save Buckbeak and Sirius, and then they come back. That's it! vmonte From annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 6 19:20:08 2004 From: annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk (annelilucas) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 19:20:08 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100189 Could someone please tell me who, apart from Harry and DD, knows that Malfoy gave Ginny the diary - do the Weasleys? And why was Malfoy never charged with plotting to bring back VM? Anneli From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 17:08:06 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:08:06 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film (ESE!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100190 Brenda wrote: > By the way, why did Lupin hold Harry back when Sirius went into > the "veil" after Bella's curse? I always assumed that it was to keep Harry from following Sirius which seems to be what Harry was trying to do. Harry's intention was to go look behind the arch because he was sure Sirius was going to pop out the other side laughing. Lupin had to make sure Harry didn't end up dead as well. Beth Gaughan From wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 18:43:02 2004 From: wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com (Kitty) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape theory (Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040606184303.15061.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100191 Francois wrote: > If Snape had been a werewolf, surely he would have > transformed > like Lupin since he was there with HRH. Ah, but what if he had come up with a potion to somehow prevent/contoll the transformation and he just hasn't shared it with Lupin. If he can make the wolfsbane potion maybe he can do one better. But, like I said, I'm not even sure why this idea occured to me so don't expect it to work. ;) Kitty http://wickedlittlekitty.tripod.com/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 19:45:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 19:45:10 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100192 Bonny wrote: One of the things that really stuck out to me in the film was the scene in which the Gryffindor boys are hanging out in their dormitory, making noises with candy. Seamus makes a monkey noise, which makes sense because he's a joker. Neville makes an elephant noise, and what do we know about elephants? THEY NEVER FORGET! Could this be a clue as to the nature of Nevilles repressed memory? Also, Ron makes the noise of a Lion, and Harry, who makes no animal noise, shoots steam out of his ears. It struck me that this could be forshadowing of them becoming animagus (Harry and Ron, I mean). Ron has many of the personality traits of a Lion, and the steam coming out of Harry's ears could represent the horns of a stag. vmonte responds: I like your comment about Neville's elephant and his repressed memory. I see Ron's lion as being more of a metaphor about his character. It's interesting that they show steam coming out of Harry's ears. Like the steam that comes out of a boiling kettle, Harry needs to get better control of his emotions. I think that the director did a great job in this scene. I think it really gives us an intimate look at Harry and friends. It foreshadows Neville regaining his memory, Harry getting control of his emotions, and Ron not only coming into his own, but turning out to be as brave as a lion. vivian From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 20:45:28 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:45:28 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annelilucas" wrote: > Could someone please tell me who, apart from Harry and DD, knows that Malfoy gave > Ginny the diary - do the Weasleys? And why was Malfoy never charged with plotting to > bring back VM? > > Anneli Malfoy was never charged with anything because there was really no evidence, except the blank diary, and that isn't enough to link him to the book or an kind of plot. DD seems to have his suspicions about Malfoy, as evidenced by his words of advice to Malfoy (something about it being a bad idea to start passing out Tom Riddle's old school things to innocent people). The Weasley's probably don't know, though I am sure that Arthur could figure it out. As for who else knew, Dobby, did, didn't he? He was the one who came to warn Harry that terrible things were afoot. Meri From technomad at intergate.com Sun Jun 6 21:06:11 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:06:11 -0500 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: <001e01c44c0a$190ec9c0$aa560043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100194 I know that we mostly believe that the "Slytherin" dislike of "m*dbloods" and contempt for Muggles is a Bad Thing. However, I would like to try to put this sort of attitude into the context of the Wizarding World. I think, myself, that the prejudice against muggle-born magical folk could easily be explained by the real danger of having to deal with people whose inner values are _different._ Particularly someone like Hermione (dearly though I love her) who cannot seem to understand that Things Are Different in the WW---house-elves may well be "enslaved" for good and sufficient reasons, forex. The prejudice might be against those _raised outside the WW_...which would include one Harry James Potter, as well as our Hermione. If there ever comes a time when Wizard and Muggle values clash---can Hermione be trusted, even if the wizards are in the right? She's gone on with her house-elves'-rights campaign in the face of repeated evidence that the house elves, themselves, do not _want_ to be free. I'd think seeing how crushed Winky was would have gotten through to her, but our Hermione is not one to let a little thing like evidence get in the way. House-elves are not humans. Neither, for that matter, are giants, and if Hagrid's a normal half-giant, his lack of common sense and tropism for dangerous creatures makes suspicion of half-giants not terribly difficult to understand. Also, thanks to _someone_ who sleeps through his History of Magic classes, depending on copying his studious friend's notes to save his sorry hide at exam time, we don't know just what sort of dodgy rep Muggle-born magical folk might have earned, back in the day. What if, for example, the majority of would-be Dark Overlord types were Muggle-born? (Heck, if you include "Muggle-raised" in this category, that would definitely include one Thomas Marvolo Riddle, aka Lord Voldemort, now wouldn't it?) As for their apparent contempt for Muggles, we think that is a Bad Thing because we're Muggles ourselves, and because we tend to associate it with racism, which is a Bad Bad Bad Thing---doubleplusungood Goldsteinful unIngSocful crimethink, to use a bit of Newspeak. But, unlike racism among different races of Muggles, there are perfectly good reasons for a lot of it. If I were living in the Wizard World, I'd be terribly handicapped---I couldn't ride a broom, summon the Knight Bus, use the Floo, get onto Platform 9 3/4, or even into Diagon Alley without someone there to help me. Once the novelty and wonder had worn off, I'd probably start to hate it. (This, BTW, goes a long way toward explaining Filch, who is one of the characters in the books I feel sorriest for---poor guy). Seeing us unable to do things they can do without effort, and not having had the benefit of our sort of education, they naturally feel superior and rather contemptuous of us---even Arthur Weasley, who is about as pro-Muggle as a lifelong resident of the WW can be, tends to think of us as rather inferior. Of course, this does not for a second excuse Muggle-baiting, much less setting basilisks on other magical people, but the basic attitude is, IMO, more understandable than not. *donning fireproof armor in anticipation of a blizzard of Howlers* From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 6 21:22:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 21:22:31 -0000 Subject: Severus, Fudge, and the Time Turner WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Susan wrote: > > That part always pleased me, just because I figured Snape DID know, > just couldn't do anything about it except fume over Sirius (And HRH) > pulling one over on him. Since you saw the movie yesterday, how did > Rickman play that part? Was he tongue-tied with rage? If so, that > would make me really happy in a rather sadistic way ;-) > > vmonte responds: > > Do you really want to know? > > scroll down > > > > > > > > > > > > > They cut this entire bit from the movie! Snape and Fudge do not > appear in the hospital wing at the end of PoA at all. DD gives the > kids the time-turner, they save Buckbeak and Sirius, and then they > come back. That's it! > > vmonte Potioncat: I was speechless! Even though they had changed the werewolf and the dementor scenes, I was really looking forward to the rage scene. Just based on the Snape/Shack scene...it would have been good.....alas, not to be. Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 21:30:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 21:30:50 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: <001e01c44c0a$190ec9c0$aa560043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I know that we mostly believe that the "Slytherin" dislike of "m*dbloods" > and contempt for Muggles is a Bad Thing. However, I would like to try to > put this sort of attitude into the context of the Wizarding World. > > I think, myself, that the prejudice against muggle-born magical folk could > easily be explained by the real danger of having to deal with people whose > inner values are _different._ Particularly someone like Hermione (dearly > though I love her) who cannot seem to understand that Things Are Different > in the WW---house-elves may well be "enslaved" for good and sufficient > reasons, forex. The prejudice might be against those _raised outside the > WW_...which would include one Harry James Potter, as well as our Hermione. > > If there ever comes a time when Wizard and Muggle values clash---can > Hermione be trusted, even if the wizards are in the right? She's gone on > with her house-elves'-rights campaign in the face of repeated evidence that > the house elves, themselves, do not _want_ to be free. I'd think seeing how > crushed Winky was would have gotten through to her, but our Hermione is not > one to let a little thing like evidence get in the way. House- elves are not > humans. Neither, for that matter, are giants, and if Hagrid's a normal > half-giant, his lack of common sense and tropism for dangerous creatures > makes suspicion of half-giants not terribly difficult to understand. > > Also, thanks to _someone_ who sleeps through his History of Magic classes, > depending on copying his studious friend's notes to save his sorry hide at > exam time, we don't know just what sort of dodgy rep Muggle-born magical > folk might have earned, back in the day. What if, for example, the majority > of would-be Dark Overlord types were Muggle-born? (Heck, if you include > "Muggle-raised" in this category, that would definitely include one Thomas > Marvolo Riddle, aka Lord Voldemort, now wouldn't it?) > > As for their apparent contempt for Muggles, we think that is a Bad Thing > because we're Muggles ourselves, and because we tend to associate it with > racism, which is a Bad Bad Bad Thing---doubleplusungood Goldsteinful > unIngSocful crimethink, to use a bit of Newspeak. But, unlike racism among > different races of Muggles, there are perfectly good reasons for a lot of > it. If I were living in the Wizard World, I'd be terribly handicapped---I > couldn't ride a broom, summon the Knight Bus, use the Floo, get onto > Platform 9 3/4, or even into Diagon Alley without someone there to help me. > Once the novelty and wonder had worn off, I'd probably start to hate it. > (This, BTW, goes a long way toward explaining Filch, who is one of the > characters in the books I feel sorriest for---poor guy). Seeing us unable > to do things they can do without effort, and not having had the benefit of > our sort of education, they naturally feel superior and rather contemptuous > of us---even Arthur Weasley, who is about as pro-Muggle as a lifelong > resident of the WW can be, tends to think of us as rather inferior. > > Of course, this does not for a second excuse Muggle-baiting, much less > setting basilisks on other magical people, but the basic attitude is, IMO, > more understandable than not. > > *donning fireproof armor in anticipation of a blizzard of Howlers* Sorry, I disagree and I disagree very strongly. Are you in effect saying that the prejudice against Muggleborn Witches and Wizards is justified because their values are different? Are you saying by extension that because they are different they should not be allowed to Hogwarts at all? Because if you are, then my very RL dislike of such philosophy kicks in very fast. You know, we all as humans are very capable of adapting to different culture . Muggle-borns children will learn about their new culture everything they need to know in their lifes. Why exactly they cannot be trusted to participate as equals in the life of Wisarding World? Hermione indeed does not do a very good job in her "free house elves" campain. But are you saying that this opens up the possibility that hermione may betray Wisarding World? I doubt it, frankly. Sorry, flaming you is TRULY NOT my intention, but I experienced too much of Slytherin House philosophy as applied to real life to ever agree that it can be justifiable in any way at all. Alla From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 22:02:53 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:02:53 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100197 > Sherry wrote: > > I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in > the book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was already > in Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name > because Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by > Crookshanks, we don't know where he was, except that he ended up in a > bottle in Hagrid's hut on the fateful day. I think he must have been > off the grounds in some way every time Harry looked at the map, > otherwise, Harry would have seen his name. Unless Harry just wasn't > looking in the right place, being focused on who might catch him > sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the grounds. If that > makes any sense. > Luckie: But why didn't the twins ever notice Pettigrew when they had the map? Ron was in his third year in PoA, they had had the map since their first year, so they had 2 full years in which to stumble on Pettigrew's name. The only thing I can think of is that 1) they didn't know who Pettigrew was (Although I think they did - can anyone find them mentioning Sirius's supposed crimes in canon?) or that, like Harry, they were simply looking at the part of the map they needed to escape at that particular moment - which wouldn't have been gryffindor tower, where Peter was. ~Luckie From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 22:22:32 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:22:32 -0000 Subject: Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: <1ac.252f3661.2df42074@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100198 Rhonda: > 1) Do the prefects stay the same for the 6th year? - It appear so. Remus said he was made a prefect and James and Sirius were not. If prefects changed you'd think perhaps James might have been made a prefect in 6th year. Also, Percy was made prefect in his 5th year and remained one in CoS. > 2) In 7th year, there are is a Head Boy and a Head Girl - But is there just one of each overall? And do the others (the one that were prefects) stay prefects or does the 7th year only have a Head Boy and a Head Girl! - There is on head boy and one head girl every year. British boarding schools use this model, as well as schools based on the British model (mostly in countries that were once a part of the empire). Every year a new boy and girl are named head boy and head girl (some schools also just have a head of house, depending on the size of the school). Some internet research might help you find some more models. But at Hogwarts I *believe* once a prefect, always a prefect. My major question with the prefects is: If one is forced to drop out of school or gets into such major trouble they can no longer continue as a prefect (Draco Malfoy?), are they replaced? As Hermione told Ron in the Hog's head: "You are a prefect!" Meaning your behavior is monitored and should you fail to set a good example, your position may be in jeopardy. If, as I believe, there are about 270 students at Hogwarts, and there are 8 prefects in 5th, 6th, and 7th year, there are 22 prefects total, plus head boy and head girl, meaning less than one tenth of students make prefect. ~Luckie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 22:22:04 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:22:04 -0000 Subject: Tears ... - Don't cry ... Harry Potter (glycerin & water) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm gonna put forth a simple > observation or two re the tears thing. > > Some actors just can't do the tears thing very well, so it's > necessary to observe the rest of the attitude. Case in point would > be an episode in Star Trek--Next Generation where Majel Barret is > supposed to be crying hysterically but her face is dry. Now, here's > an experienced actress who just can't get tears to flow. > > This only one theory...that Dan R. just hasn't been able to learn > how to do it. > > Another theory might be that Harry is to numbed to _really_ cry, or > that he managed to dry his face before the cloak was pulled off and > is holding back more tears because the last thing in the world a > teen would want is for his friends to see what he may feel is > "sissy" behavior. > > Just a couple of thinkings. > > Cheers, > Lee :-) bboy_mn: Good points one and all, Lee. As others have pointed out bawling-like crying would have been inapproperate, Harry doesn't cry in the books.In fact, the books make of point of bring Harry right to the edge of tears, but not allowing him to go all the way, and I think the books/author has a very definite reason for that. BUT... Here is a cross-post of mine from another group on the subject of crying. ----> I'm going to teach you all how to cry on cue. Mix a little glycerin with water and dab it under your eyes. Bada-bing Bada-boom... crying. This wasn't a problem of acting, it was problem of make-up. First, the sobbing without a doubt that wasn't Dan, and even if it was, it was dubbed in after the fact. The whole point of the sobbing it to indicate an invisible Dan/Harry was there. I don't think a blubbering Harry with tears pooring out of his eyes would have been appropriate. In the book, Harry's eyes do well up and water with various emotions, but being a typical 'guy', he fights hard not to actually cry. So, the logical way for the scene to been staged would have been for Harry to have a little wetness under his eyes (glycerin & water) but not actual flowing tears. As long as we are talking about 'guys', people have commented why Ron stood back reluctant too get to close or too involved. Well, of course, the answer is because Ron is a 'GUY' and Harry is a guy, and Ron wouldn't want to see Harry crying, and Harry definitely wouldn't want him to see it. It's a guy thing, we don't do crying. Finally, the shift in Dan/Harry's mood in that scene, from anguish to anger, that is a pretty legitimate and common shift for someone who is in the throes of complex emotions. Even when the anguish is dominating, the anger is there just below the surface, and once the emotions are enflamed, and in a sense, accelerated, they really can shift pretty quickly. In fact, this exact type of shift to explosive anger frequently occurs when a person is trying very hard to repress the true underlying emotion. So, I had no problem with the anger shift. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jun 6 22:25:43 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:25:43 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film - Don't cry for me Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100200 vmonte > Regarding the tears scene: > The scene might have originally been filmed without Harry crying, > but with him just being upset/mad. The director may have later > decided that Harry did not appear as upset as he should have, and > requested that the crying sounds be added during the film editing. > Since Harry was not visible under the cloak, adding crying noises > is easy. > Unfortunately, they should have added tears to his face as well. > This type of thing happens all the time. samnanya I would usually agree - sloppy editing is the rule rather than the exception. THe only reason I am not convinced is that Cuaron and JKR are both notorious nitpicking perfectionists, and given all JKR has said about eyes being important, I find it hard to believe that both of them would let this go...... then again, there was that "K-Mart special" petronus which really did not sit well with me given that it was the climax of the movie. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 6 22:29:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:29:10 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100201 Geoff: Sometimes, a series of posts will trigger off a new line of thought and, looking at some of the recent posts about the Priori Incantatem spell, my mind began to run off along a track I had not considered before. This spell occurs at least twice in GOF, each time under different circumstances. The first is after the Quidditch World Cup Final when the Dark Mark is seen and Winky is discovered holding Harry's wand. `"Well, we'll soon see," growled Mr. Diggory, looking unimpressed. "There's a simple way of discovering the last spell a wand performed, elf, did you know that?" Winky trembled and shook her head frantically, her ears flapping as Mr.Diggory raised his own wand again and placed it tip to tip with Harry's. "Prior Incantato!" roared Mr.Diggory. Harry heard Hermione gasp, horrified, as a gigantic serpent-tongued skull erupted from the point where the two wands met but it was a mere shadow of the green skull high above them, it looked as though it were made of thick grey smoke: the ghost of a spell. "Deletrius!" Mr.Diggory shouted and the smoky skull vanished in a wisp of smoke,' (GOF "The Dark Mark" p.123 UK edition) the second occasion is, of course, the graveyard scene. `Voldemort was ready. As Harry shouted "Expelliarmus!", Voldemort cried "Avadra Kedavra!".... .One of the beads of light was quivering, inches from the tip of Voldemort's wand. Harry didn't understand why he was doing it, didn't know what it might achieve but he now concentrated, as he had never done in his life, on forcing that bead of light right back into Voldemort's wand.... and slowly . very slowly.... it moved along the golden thread.... it trembled for a moment.... and then it connected.... At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain.... then ? Voldemort's red eyes widened with shock - a dense smoky hand flew out of the tip of it and vanished.... ` (GOF "Priori Incantatem" p.577 UK edition) `He was glad when Sirius broke the silence. "The wands connected?" he said, looking from Harry to Dumbledore. "Why?" Harry looked back at Dumbledore, on whose face there was an arrested look. "Priori Incantatem," he muttered. His eyes gazed into Harry's and it was almost as though an invisible beam of understanding shot between them. "The reverse spell effect?" said Sirius sharply. "Exactly," said Dumbledore. "Harry's wand and Voldermort's wand share cores".... ...."So what happens when a wand meets its brother?" said Sirius. "They will not work properly against each other," said Dumbledore. "If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle.... a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse. The most recent first . and then those which preceded it...." He looked interrogatively at Harry and Harry nodded.' (GOF "The Parting of the Ways" p.605 UK edition) My take on this is that there are two modes of operation for the Priori Incantatem spell - voluntary and involuntary. In the voluntary case, we see the wand being which is being "questioned" being placed point to point with an "interrogating" wand and just the last spell being shown. In the involuntary case, this would only seem to operate when, as Dumbledore remarks, they share cores. In this case, the results are different. It would appear that the command "Priori Incantatem" is not needed because neither Harry nor Voldemort used it. The wand then apparently goes on producing former spells in reverse order until the link is broken - although there does appear to be a time lag between the appearances, long enough to allow the emerging figures to say something to Harry. An interesting point here is that the figures seem to know what is going on and, even more curious, the fact that the "echo" of Bertha Jorkins knows Harry's name; is an appearing "echo" so aware of the surrounding as to perhaps see Harry's scar? It is also recorded that, in this instance, the wands became hot; is this perhaps related to the spells which were spoken when the connection occurred? Is the golden cage effect only because the shared cores are from a phoenix? Two other points. In both cases, the "echoes" produced are described as grey and smoky. The other is that slightly differing forms of the spell wording are mentioned. Amos Diggory uses "Prior Incantato" which sounds suspiciously like a genitive whereas "Priori Incantatem" - which is not actually heard being used in this book - looks like an accusative. I am trying to remember whether any of the spells used in the books appear in more than one version and, if so, if that affects the result. Anyone care to pick holes or add their two pennyworth? From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jun 6 23:39:12 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 19:39:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. movie SPOILERS References: Message-ID: <007c01c44c1f$794998a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100202 *spoiler space here* """Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Snape shields the Trio from transformed Remus. Since this is not in Canon, I hope that JKR approved of that scene being there. No, I still don't think that Snape is a good person (loyalty to Dumbledore alone does not make him so, IMO. I surely want more), but at least now I almost don't have to worry that Snape will turn out to be ESE! at the end. Alla""" To me that scene never conflicted with book-canon Snape. He's bullied students and behaved pettily and overall, I wouldn't call him a good professor at all. However, there does seem to be a certain line he doesn't cross, I mean none of the students have been poisoned or incurably damaged in his classes so far, right? I think Snape takes DD's trust in him and his position as a Hogwarts professor very seriously, and I'd say shielding students from the danger of a werewolf falls under the responsibilites of a Hogwarts professor. In the book, when he strode into the Shrieking Shack and took the wands away from Remus and Sirius, he was screaming at Harry how Harry should be in his knees, thanking him (Snape) for saving his (Harry's) life. Sure, he was happy to finally get back at Padfoot, but I believe he was also proud of having saved student lives and being able to add that to the list of his professorial accolades. Alina, who sincerely hopes her rambling didn't become incoherent by the end. From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jun 6 23:49:43 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 19:49:43 -0400 Subject: The number of students at Hogwarts, was Re: Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl References: Message-ID: <00ab01c44c20$f18116d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100203 If, as I believe, there are about 270 students at Hogwarts, and there are 8 prefects in 5th, 6th, and 7th year, there are 22 prefects total, plus head boy and head girl, meaning less than one tenth of students make prefect. ~Luckie I think there are about 800 students at Hogwarts. I have just finished rereading a scene in PoA which describes that Gryffindor vs Slytherin Quidditch match. It described 3/4s of the school supporting Gryffindor and 200 Slytherins wearing green cloaks. If we assume that each house as roughly the same amount, then there'd be around 800 students. Even if the houses don't, surely it can't be 200 Slytherins vs 70 others? Let me type up the exact words from the Canadian edition, chapters called "The Quidditch Final": "Three-quarters of the crowd were wearing scarlet rosettes, waving scarlet flags...... Behind the Slytherin goalposts, however, two hundred people were wearing green;" Alina. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 6 23:53:49 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:53:49 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The number of students at Hogwarts, was Re: Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: <00ab01c44c20$f18116d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <40C43B2D.20174.97C626@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100204 On 6 Jun 2004 at 19:49, Alina wrote: > I think there are about 800 students at Hogwarts. I have just finished > rereading a scene in PoA which describes that Gryffindor vs Slytherin > Quidditch match. It described 3/4s of the school supporting Gryffindor and > 200 Slytherins wearing green cloaks. If we assume that each house as roughly > the same amount, then there'd be around 800 students. Even if the houses > don't, surely it can't be 200 Slytherins vs 70 others? Let me type up the > exact words from the Canadian edition, chapters called "The Quidditch > Final": The problem, Alina, is that there is conflicting evidence in the text. There's some statements, such as the one you've found, that support a large school with somewhere around 800-1000 students. There's other statements that support a small school with around 270 students - so it depends what weight you give to the different statements. Personally, I favour the smaller number - I can quite easily believe that on certain occasions, large numbers of former students turn up to support their house in sports, and maybe even parents as well. It certainly happened at my school on occasion - and in our case, it was a lot harder for many to get there than just apparating to the nearest village. But the issue really comes down to their being conflicting evidence - and it's something that gets debated over and over again. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 00:09:04 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:09:04 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: <97.48eaef9a.2df3751a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > I also can't help thinking that *if* Snape is a vampire, Hermione already > knows. Hermione knew right away that Lupin was a werewolf from the essay Snape > made them write, so when Lupin made them write the vampire essay, she would > have figured it out if it were true. That said, if it *is* true and she *does* > know that Snape is a werewolf, then why would she keep that from her friends? > She didn't tell Lupin's secret, but she *liked* Lupin. If she is hiding this, > what else could she be hiding? Hermione tends to know so much more than she > lets on. I can't help thinking she knows what the bat clues mean. She *is* > JKR's voice, afterall... > But in the modern corruption of the vampire myths, there isn't an easy way to tell. Werewolves have an unavoidable monthly cycle which is easily visible by those in reasonably close contact. Snape doesn't have the look of the real myth vampires with hooked ears and all that so if JKR sticts strictly to those sorts of things there's no way. But if she doesn't, what about being a vampire can't he hide? I don't think we've seen any references to crucifixes, holy water, or any of that sort of thing. A dislike of garlic wouldn't be all that obvious. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 00:44:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:44:20 -0000 Subject: PoA Snape as canon foreshadowing. movie SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <007c01c44c1f$794998a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: Alla wrote previously: > *spoiler space here* > > > > > > > > """Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Snape shields the Trio from > transformed Remus. Since this is not in Canon, I hope that JKR > approved of that scene being there. > > No, I still don't think that Snape is a good person (loyalty to > Dumbledore alone does not make him so, IMO. I surely want more), but > at least now I almost don't have to worry that Snape will turn out to > be ESE! at the end. > > > Alla""" > Alina wrote previouslY: > To me that scene never conflicted with book-canon Snape. He's bullied > students and behaved pettily and overall, I wouldn't call him a good > professor at all. However, there does seem to be a certain line he doesn't > cross, I mean none of the students have been poisoned or incurably damaged > in his classes so far, right? I think Snape takes DD's trust in him and his > position as a Hogwarts professor very seriously, and I'd say shielding > students from the danger of a werewolf falls under the responsibilites of a > Hogwarts professor. In the book, when he strode into the Shrieking Shack and > took the wands away from Remus and Sirius, he was screaming at Harry how > Harry should be in his knees, thanking him (Snape) for saving his (Harry's) > life. Sure, he was happy to finally get back at Padfoot, but I believe he > was also proud of having saved student lives and being able to add that to > the list of his professorial accolades. > > Alina, > who sincerely hopes her rambling didn't become incoherent by the end. Alla: The reason why I loved that scene so much is because for quite some time I doubted that in the Shack Snape was concerned at all with saving Trio's life. You are right - saving children from werewolf falls under responsibilities of Hogwrts professor, but as I said I thought that the only reason Snape went into Shack was to execute his revenge on Sirius and Lupin. Now at least I know that he had other considerations in mind too. Alla From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 7 00:48:52 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:48:52 -0400 Subject: sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh Message-ID: <000e01c44c29$35415260$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100207 They list isn't particularly active today, so I thought no one would mind another post. I was just thinking about Harry's name (an idea for a ficlet came to mind about his middle name) and then I remembered something that bothered me in book one, the very first chapter. When Vernon asked Petunia what Harry's name was, she told him, "Harry, a nasty common name." It always bugged me, because, well, it's not a very patriotic thing for a Brit to say, is it? And Vernon and Petunia always seemed to me the kind of people who would be too scared of appearing somehow improper saying anything even remotely anti-royal family, even in the privacy of their home. And now something suddenly came to me... JKR was making a joke wasn't she? I mean, Harry (Potter) was born around 1980, the conversation was happening somewhere around 1981... and Harry the prince wasn't born until late 1984, was he? The image of the Dursleys hearing the announcement of the birth of a royal Harry make me smile in sadistic pleasure. Bet they fumed for weeks that the royal couple didn't name him Dudley instead. Alina who hopes there's canon enough in this post for her to not get into trouble. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 7 01:00:03 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:00:03 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh In-Reply-To: <000e01c44c29$35415260$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <40C44AB3.9832.D46C3C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100208 On 6 Jun 2004 at 20:48, Alina wrote: > And now something suddenly came to me... JKR was making a joke wasn't she? I > mean, Harry (Potter) was born around 1980, the conversation was happening > somewhere around 1981... and Harry the prince wasn't born until late 1984, > was he? The image of the Dursleys hearing the announcement of the birth of a > royal Harry make me smile in sadistic pleasure. Bet they fumed for weeks > that the royal couple didn't name him Dudley instead. Well, bear in mind that the prince isn't actually Prince Harry - he's Prince Henry Charles Albert David (I think) - Prince Henry. While he's commonly referred to as Harry, now, it was a fair while before that useage became common in the press. In Harry's case, as far as we know Harry is his actual proper name - not just a shorterning of something else - and that is a slightly different situation. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 7 01:09:45 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:09:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh References: <40C44AB3.9832.D46C3C@localhost> Message-ID: <001c01c44c2c$1fcb36a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100209 """ Well, bear in mind that the prince isn't actually Prince Harry - he's Prince Henry Charles Albert David (I think) - Prince Henry. While he's commonly referred to as Harry, now, it was a fair while before that useage became common in the press. In Harry's case, as far as we know Harry is his actual proper name - not just a shorterning of something else - and that is a slightly different situation. Shaun Hately"""" Oh don't ruin it for me. I had such fun imagining. You know, an evening at the Dursleys, Petunia washing dishes and peering out of the window. Vernon watching TV. Little Dudley and Little Harry on the ground, the former pouding the latter with his chubby fists for the sheer fun of it. The news come on and the reporter shows a picture of the happy couple and announces that the newborn Henry Charles Albert David Windsor is lovingly called Harry by his overjoyed family. "Rubbish!" snorts Vernon and angrily walks over to the TV to turn it off while Little Harry looks over, attracted by the sound of his name. "Petunia!" Vernon bellows, annoyed that the child heard and sure that he, despite his young age, is gloating at his cousin, "Put the runt to bed, he's bothering Dudley!" You have to admit, it would've been funny. Alina. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 7 01:18:28 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:18:28 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh In-Reply-To: <001c01c44c2c$1fcb36a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <40C44F04.18376.E5493D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100210 On 6 Jun 2004 at 21:09, Alina wrote: > Oh don't ruin it for me. I had such fun imagining. You know, an evening at > the Dursleys, Petunia washing dishes and peering out of the window. Vernon > watching TV. Little Dudley and Little Harry on the ground, the former > pouding the latter with his chubby fists for the sheer fun of it. The news > come on and the reporter shows a picture of the happy couple and announces > that the newborn Henry Charles Albert David Windsor is lovingly called Harry > by his overjoyed family. "Rubbish!" snorts Vernon and angrily walks over to > the TV to turn it off while Little Harry looks over, attracted by the sound > of his name. "Petunia!" Vernon bellows, annoyed that the child heard and > sure that he, despite his young age, is gloating at his cousin, "Put the > runt to bed, he's bothering Dudley!" > > You have to admit, it would've been funny. Actually, it's not an impossible scene, by any means. At some point, I'm fairly sure the Palace must have made it clear that referring to the Prince as Harry was fine - because there's certain publications that use the name which wouldn't do so unless it had some formal status. I'm not sure when this was (and without going back through old newspapers couldn't pinpoint it) but it certainly could have been quite early - maybe even when his name was announced - hmm, I can probably check that at least... You're in luck! >From The Times of 17th September 1984: "Prince Henry Charles Albert David, second child of the Prince and Princess of Wales and third in line of succession to the throne, left the austerity of hospital for the comfort of his royal home at Kensington Palace yesterday afternoon less than 24 hours after his birth. Cradled by his mother and watched over by his adoring father, Prince Harry - as he is to be known..." So it looks like your scenario would work. Although I suspect that the Dursleys are the type who would insist on calling him Prince Henry if they ever discussed him. (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 01:31:58 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:31:58 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > I have the same problem with Fudge and Snape (sorry, Professor Snape) > not picking up on Dumbledore's little dig about Harry and Hermione > being in two places at once - even if Fudge is a bit dim, Snape > certainly isn't and Time Turners would be just the sort of thing he'd > have read about, I'd think. > Unless, of course, the things don't actually come from the Ministry > but have been developed outside of the MoM, by, perhaps, two very > powerful wizards working in partnership (AD and NF)? > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria I have heard someone say--I think it was on this group in fact--that the line you mention was Dumbledore's way of telling Snape that he (DD) was in on it and to shut the heck up. The logic is that there's no way Professor Snape was unaware of the Time Turner. No way at all, it would be completely unprofessional for McGonagall to provide a student with something that could be used to cheat without alerting the other professors. Therefore Snape knew that she could be in two places at once and Dumbledore knew that Snape knew and Snape knew that Dumbledore knew that Snape knew and before this gets any more "Get Smart-ish" I'll just say that by intimating that she couldn't be two places at once when he knew that she could be, Dumbledore was indicating that he was aware of the scheme. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 02:02:25 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:02:25 -0000 Subject: sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh In-Reply-To: <40C44AB3.9832.D46C3C@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100212 Shaun Hately wrote: Well, bear in mind that the prince isn't actually Prince Harry - he's Prince Henry Charles Albert David (I think) - Prince Henry. While he's commonly referred to as Harry, now, it was a fair while before that useage became common in the press. In Harry's case, as far as we know Harry is his actual proper name - not just a shorterning of something else - and that is a slightly different situation. Neri: This is indeed a point that I always wanted to ask the British here. Is my impression correct that the name Harry Potter does have a "common" sound to it? To my knowledge Harry is indeed the common form of the more aristocratic Henry. Wasn't King Henry the VIII, for example, known as "Great Harry" to the commoners? Potter is also a frequent name, and it had originated from a commoner's occupation, as opposed to Dursley which (to my non-english ear, at least) sounds more aristocratic. My thoughts were that JKR modeled the name Harry Potter after those generic names of commoner kids in fairytales, such as Jack (the giant killer) or the german Hansel and Gretel, but maybe I don't read these nuances correctly? Neri From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 02:07:53 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:07:53 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100213 > geoff banister said: >snip< The other is that slightly differing forms of the > spell wording are mentioned. Amos Diggory uses "Prior Incantato" > which sounds suspiciously like a genitive whereas "Priori > Incantatem" - which is not actually heard being used in this book - > looks like an accusative. I am trying to remember whether any of the > spells used in the books appear in more than one version and, if so, > if that affects the result. > > Anyone care to pick holes or add their two pennyworth? Snow replies: I had also wondered about the difference between the spellings and or meanings of Priori Incantato vs. Priori Inacntatem. The only reference that I can think of that might relate would be parcel mouth and parcel tougue. Priori Incantato is to Priori Incantatem as Parcel Mouth is to Parcel Tongue. Don't know if that helps but thats what I thought! From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 02:08:26 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:08:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny loss In-Reply-To: <1eb.22436012.2df4ab8d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > sarahmint at y... writes: > > I think that the Ginny/Harry think was a childhood crush. I see them more as > good friends. Ahh, but that is where all good relationships start, isn't it? I wouldn't give Ginny/Harry any credence whatsoever if she weren't talking to him like a normal person but she is. Two things stand out for me in terms of their relationsip. First, when discussing possession by Voldemort she chastises him for not coming to her first and he says he's sorry *and he meant it.* The emphasis was not mine, but JKR's. In the midst of a book where Harry takes almost nobody else's feelings into account, he acknowledges Ginny's. Also, when they are in the library after the easter eggs have arrived, Harry is eating his egg, Ginny takes a little piece, and Harry doesn't comment. This demonstrates more than familiarity, but comfort. They are comfortable interacting on a very personal level. I am going to be very very surprised if JKR epilogue's this thing out to adult marriages and all that without Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny pairings. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 02:18:01 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:18:01 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annelilucas" > wrote: > > Could someone please tell me who, apart from Harry and DD, knows > that Malfoy gave > > Ginny the diary - do the Weasleys? And why was Malfoy never > charged with plotting to > > bring back VM? > > > > Anneli > > Malfoy was never charged with anything because there was really no > evidence, except the blank diary, and that isn't enough to link him > to the book or an kind of plot. DD seems to have his suspicions > about Malfoy, as evidenced by his words of advice to Malfoy > (something about it being a bad idea to start passing out Tom > Riddle's old school things to innocent people). The Weasley's > probably don't know, though I am sure that Arthur could figure it > out. As for who else knew, Dobby, did, didn't he? He was the one who > came to warn Harry that terrible things were afoot. > Meri I cannot imagine that Dumbledore didn't tell the Weasleys. Their daughter was all but killed due to Malfoy's actions, Dumbledore knows it, and he's not going to tell? Even if the Weasleys weren't allies, they're parents of a student at his school and he'd have told them. I just can't believe otherwise. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 7 02:25:29 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:25:29 -0000 Subject: a lot of things, scroll for your name, Shrieking Shack at the end Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100216 Here is a nomination for the added thing in PoA movie that's a Clue: when Harry took the crystal ball back to Trelawney's classroom, there was a either a sleeping grey cat or a grey cushion on the chair. I asked Tim and he said it was a cat who looked exactly like a grey version of orange Crookshanks. Perhaps book 6 or 7 will have a plot point about anothar half-Kneazle or another cat animagus? Marianne wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99190 : << Am the only one to think that Lily's cataloging of James' faults as a possible indication that she's spent a whole lot of time keeping an eye on him? Knowing that she eventually ended up with James, I couldn't help read that as the passionate outburst of someone who is denying to herself on some level that she is attracted to James, and she fights against that by trying to concentrate on his faults. >> You're NOT the only one. It seemed to me that her rant about James's fault indicates that she had been observing him closely because she was attracted to him, and that she ranted about his faults rather than praising them indicates that she wanted to make him 'worthy' of her instead of 'lowering' herself to his level. Mandy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/99289 : << What about those muggle kids who want to learn magic? And before you say if can't be learned, it can. Otherwise why would Filtch bother to send away for a magical correspondence course? A squib had no magical powers right? He must have felt there was hope to even bother. >> Filch bothered to send away for a magical correspondence course because he was being ripped off. Okay, that's a little harsh. To me, the Kwik-Spel people aren't as crooked as the Muggles who sell a bottle of water with a drop of food coloring and tell you that if you take a tablespoon a day, you'll lose weight no matter how much you eat and how little you exercise: none of the Kwik-Spel customer testimonials that Harry read were about Squibs; all were from wizards and witches whose magic was weak or sloppy, so it helped them to practise techniques. But Filch was engaged in some kind of wishful thinking, maybe that he wasn't really a Squib but merely needed training, or else that such a well-advertised training program could turn a Squib magical. Susan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/99533 : << Hi, all...just found out that Rosmerta is a Celtic and Roman goddess..Celtic goddess of plenty and fertility..... >> And her name means 'Great Provider', very appropriate for a tavern-keeper. Steve bboy_mn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99581 : << Gets to torture Harry and die a hero's death; banner day for Snape. >> To which, Alla replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99673 : << Who is seeing the theory someone posted about Snape sacrificing himself - solely for the glory involved - as a lot more possible after reflecting this afternoon. >> Not *solely* for the glory involved. I see Snape's happiest moment being when he gets to force Harry to accept for Snape to die a hero's death saving Harry by saying very vicious things to Harry. Thus, he gets: 1) to die -- release from his mental/emotional sufferings 2) glory 3) the certain knowledge that Harry will suffer guilt about it for the rest of his life 4) and a last indulgence in witty repartee. To me, Snape enjoys hurting people's feelings MUCH more than hurting their flesh ... I'm not sure he enjoys hurting their flesh at all. Melody wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99837 : << The unfairness of it all sank in when they learned that Crabbe only got lines for his misconduct.>> Were those lines with Umbridge's evil quill? Did she make him write: "I must not get caught"? Catherine McK wrote ini http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100007 : << A possibility for Sirius [having won a trophy] could be involvement in one of those moments of defying Voldemort that James and Lily had before leaving school. I certainly don't see him as the Quidditch team type. >> I don't see Sirius as a team player either, but he might have won a trophy in an individual sport. Was there a Duelling Club Champion when there was a Duelling Club? Were there intramural broomstick races? Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/99609 : << I also read somewhere, maybe even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to be a virtue. Is it true? >> Oh, that is an old thing, from the British class system. In the 18th and 19th centuries, some (not all) people said it was very important to 'know your place'; some people would criticise working class people who went to school or made inventions for trying to 'get above their upbringing' and some people would criticize upper class people who seemed to actually try hard at something for lowering themselves to the behavior of 'bourgeois strivers'. JKR is modern and liberal and never would sit still for that old nonsense. What about class systems in other European countries? Marianne Zarleycat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99614 : << The tunnel to the Shrieking Shack extends from the Shack to the Whomping Willow. It doesn't go into the castle. So, whether or not Dumbledore knew or suspected that Sirius knew about that tunnel, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Sirius knew of other tunnels that actually did lead into the castle. >> I have never understood why Dumbledore's plan to protect the other students' lives and healths and Remus's secret involved putting the entrance to his hidey-hole out in the open where just anyone could happen to see Madam Pomfrey leading him there. Why didn't he make a tunnel from the Infirmary *to* the Whomping Willow? Couldn't he at least lend Pomfrey an Invisibility Cloak for those excursions? Jo Ann wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99589 : << The only thing I can think of that would account for the Life Debt, therefore, is that James must have managed to get between the two of them, shoved Snape back toward the far end of the tunnel, and then probably transformed into Prongs. James would be in real danger while in human form, and possibly afterward, as I doubt Werewolf!Remus would be happy to find his friend the stag cutting him off from his intended prey. But one way or another, he bought Snape the time to get out of the tunnel, without getting torn to shreds himself. I also consider it very likely that James was thinking of both Remus' and Snape's welfare when he went in, and for that matter, Sirius' too. He wouldn't have wanted Snape to get killed, Remus injured by any werewolf-affecting magic Snape might have up his sleeve, or either of his good friends charged with accessory to/attempted/murder, or ... um ... unlawfully inflicting lycanthropy? >> I agree with your visualization of James as human chasing after Snape, and 'persuading' Snape to turn around and run back, and staying in-between them and turning into Prongs to hold off the werewolf. I agree that James was risking death, even if not lycanthropy, by tangling with a werewolf drive mad with blood-lust by scenting a human. I agree that James was motivated by protecting Remus and Sirius from this consequences of Sirius's stupid act, consequences that would probably be worse for Remus, such as execution instead of mere expulsion. I sadly think that James' attitude about saving Snape's life/health might have been regret rather than compassion... he might have thought how nice it would be if Snape were killed, but NOT at Remus's expense... From rarpsl at optonline.net Mon Jun 7 02:48:49 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:48:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Twins' Bet (Was: Ron=DD?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100217 At 07:52 +0000 on 03/29/2004, justcarol67 wrote about [HPforGrownups] The Twins' Bet (Was: Ron=DD?): >I see no need to assume that the twins used a time turner here. >Apparently such devices are rare and require special permission. All >the twins needed to do was to use their considerable intelligence in >looking at two facts in relation to the nature of the game: The Irish >had the best *team* in the world, but Bulgaria had the best Seeker. >Note that *Ron* wore a hat and rosette supporting Ireland but bought a >miniature figure of Krum. The twins took this awareness a bit farther. >It was very likely that Krum would outmaneuver the Irish seeker and >catch the Snitch, but the Snitch is hard to spot and usually is not >caught until well into the game. The excellent Irish team would have >plenty of time to score while Viktor was either watching for the >Snitch or diverting the other seeker with feints. It really wasn't >that hard to figure out. No need for a time turner; just good betting >instincts and a knowledge of quidditch. I agree with your analysis (which agreed with mine even before I read your reply). My analysis goes as follows. A Quidditch match is really two separate and independent games (if you ignore any interference-with/attacking-of the Seeker by any of the other players other than the opposing Seeker). The Seeker Game as has its objective to capture the Snitch, score the points for doing so, and end the match. OTOH, the Main Game (played by the rest of the team) has as its objective to score points and prevent the other team from scoring points (or at least score more points than they do). More specifically, there is a secondary objective which differs based on if you are currently the leading or trailing (in points) team. The Leading team wants to score and maintain enough more points than the trailing team so that no matter which Seeker eventually captures the Snitch (thus ending the match) they will be guaranteed to win the match. The trailing team wants to gain the lead or at least keep the point spread small enough that IF (When?) their Seeker captures the Snitch, the bonus points will push their score past that of the leading team. Given the difference in skill levels between the Irish and Bulgarian teams, it was almost a given that the Irish team would be have an unbeatable lead at the end of the match (as would be their objective per the above list of objectives). OTOH, Krum was so much better a Seeker than the Bulgarian Seeker, that he was (again almost) assured to be the one who captured the Snitch thus ending the match. Given this analysis, it is not that hard to assume that the twins handicapped the match this way and thus placed that split bet. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 03:01:59 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:01:59 -0000 Subject: Names in general (was sharing an unimportant discovery...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100218 > Neri: > This is indeed a point that I always wanted to ask the British here. > Is my impression correct that the name Harry Potter does have > a "common" sound to it? To my knowledge Harry is indeed the common > form of the more aristocratic Henry. Wasn't King Henry the VIII, for > example, known as "Great Harry" to the commoners? Potter is also a > frequent name, and it had originated from a commoner's occupation, as > opposed to Dursley which (to my non-english ear, at least) sounds > more aristocratic. My thoughts were that JKR modeled the name Harry > Potter after those generic names of commoner kids in fairytales, such > as Jack (the giant killer) or the german Hansel and Gretel, but maybe > I don't read these nuances correctly? > > Neri While not British, I think it's clear that the name Harry Potter was chosen as an Everyman kind of name. He is, after all, "just Harry." What gets me is the other names. Other than Harry Potter, and perhaps Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger, don't all the other names sound made up? Of course they are all made up, but there are names that sound made up and names that don't. There are names with historical and/or mythological allusions buried within. Nicholas Flamel, Minerva McGonagall, etc. There are names that are word games, Albus Dumbledore, Severus Snape, Remus Lupin. There are names that are pure whimsey, Wendolyn the Weird, most of the textbook authors. Does anyone fear that the resolution of this story will involve the revelation that it's all either a dream or some kind of wakeful make believe? That would irk me to no end but I think it's possible. I think back to the first bits of the first book where Harry is looking around in his closet for socks and wipes away a spider, then I think of all the subsequent spider and sock references and I shudder. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 03:35:00 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:35:00 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100219 Geoff quotes: ...."So what happens when a wand meets its brother?" said Sirius. "They will not work properly against each other," said Dumbledore. "If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle.... a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse. The most recent first . and then those which preceded it...." He looked interrogatively at Harry and Harry nodded.' (GOF "The Parting of the Ways" p.605 UK edition) Bookworm: Something I didn't pick up until rereading your quotes just now: "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells..." By continuing the discussion of what the wands do, Dumbledore glossed over the fact that *Harry's* wand made Voldemort's wand do the regurgitating. What makes one wand stronger that the other ? the wand itself or the wizard using it? Is it strength or the spells used? Foreshadowing? Ravenclaw Bookworm From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 03:50:55 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:50:55 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100220 > Geoff: > Two other points. In both cases, the "echoes" produced are described > as grey and smoky. The other is that slightly differing forms of the > spell wording are mentioned. Amos Diggory uses "Prior Incantato" > which sounds suspiciously like a genitive whereas "Priori > Incantatem" - which is not actually heard being used in this book - > looks like an accusative. I am trying to remember whether any of the > spells used in the books appear in more than one version and, if so, > if that affects the result. > > Anyone care to pick holes or add their two pennyworth? Annemehr: Only that "Priori Incantatem" is the name of the spell, and "Prior Incantato" is the incantation for using it. It's just like "Cruciatus Curse" and "Crucio!" or "Imperius Curse" and "Imperio!" In the brother-wand reverse-spell *effect,* as you say, no incantation was necessary. I'm having trouble thinking of other really good examples, but in GoF, in the maze, when Harry wants to get through the hedge to rescue Cedric from the Cruciatus curse, he uses what is called the "Reductor Curse," and I believe the incantation was "reducto!" Also I remember that the spell that is called the Stunning Spell has the incantation "Stupefy!" Dang it, this cold I have is making my head all fuzzy, but I hope this helps... Annemehr who sees what was wrong with the PoA movie yet loves it all the same... From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 7 03:52:16 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:52:16 -0000 Subject: evil, good, betrayal, Kneasy, Pippin, Potioncat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100221 Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99258 : << The idea that comes up, both in canon and in posts, that those in Slytherin House are inately evil bothers me. And to me, makes no sense. Because if that was the intent, why wouldn't all Slytherin students be promptly expelled or transferred to a Magical St. Brutus'? >> To me, the wizards in the Potterverse don't have any agreement that good is good or evil is evil. They view it much more as a personal choice, like preferring "liberal" or "conservative" in politics is for Muggles. That may have something to do with why the wizarding government is always making laws and rarely enforcing them. The good wizards and the evil wizards will co-operate to keep their world hidden from Muggles or to have on-going competition in Quidditch, but to me, then they fall into dispute over whether one wizard who murdered another wizard should be sent to Azkaban, or was it the victim's fault for being such a fool as to be deceived by that trap, or too weak at magic to fight his way out? Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99180 : << Two of the major themes in the story are betrayal and the motivations for choosing sides. 'Betrayal' is itself conditional. In some circumstances it could be considered 'good'. >> Oh, Kneasy, how very exactly true to canon. There are two matched pairs of betrayals in canon. Each pair consists of one good, one evil. The easy pair are the House Elves. Dobby disobeyed his owners in order to thwart their plans, protect their enemy, and get them in trouble. He may have twisted some commands to allow him to do so, or he may have outright disobeyed and then ironed his hands. Kreachur disobeyed his owner in order to thwart his plans, protect his enemies, and get him in trouble. He is stated to have twisted some commands to allow him to do so, and I don't remember if he ever put himself through the clothes-wringer. Each House Elf broke the House Elf rules by serving a human of his own choice versus his master -- each House Elf was loyal to the ideology in which he believed. Most every reader agrees that Dobby was good and Kreachur was evil, but Kreachur was the *unselfish* one: Kreachur was serving an ideology in which House Elves, such as himself, were treated like vermin, while Dobby was trying to get out of a situation in which he was being tortured all the time. The hard pair are Snape and Pettigrew. Each turned against his old school friends, spied on them to aid their enemy side, and caused their deaths. This is harder because there is more for the imagination to fill in. It is canon that Pettigrew betrayed his friends to their deaths. There is no canon that Pettigrew sought out Voldie to offer to sell the Potters to him for some payment, nor out of spite against their 'friendly' mockery of him. The only motive canon states for Pettigrew was to save his own life. They call that cowardice, but he might have been broken by torture first. Sirius said he was gone from his hiding place with no sign of struggle, but hy might have been tricked into going voluntarily to some place where they wouldn't be disturbed while torturing him. He might have been less bad of a human before he spent 12 years as a rat. Snape's old friends were Rosier and Evans, who were killed by Aurors (at least one by Moody), the Lestranges, and Avery who talked his way out of Azkaban. It seems unlikely that the useful information that Dumbledore testified that Snape gave him had nothing to do with those deaths. It seems quite unlikely that Severus was motivated by trying to save his own life -- vengeance against Voldemort is more likely, or deciding that Voldemort was the wrong winner -- but whatever motive, he let his friends be killed for it. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99310 : << As an adult, a teacher with responsibility for the students under his care, he knows that he should tell Dumbledore about Sirius's animagus abilities. But he doesn't, not because he thinks that it is safer for Harry or Dumbledore not to know, but because he doesn't want to get himself in trouble. >> Because he didn't want Dumbledore to gaze reproachfully at him -- JKR said he wants [too much] to be liked, not that he fears punishment. But this can be taken as another case of betrayal:good/evil. If your friend (and Sirius was Remus's last surviving friend) is wanted by law enforcement, do you betray your friend to them? Not in the world of heroic epics. If his friend needs killing, the epic hero does it himself. ("Professional etiquette suggests an extorted confession, followed by poison for two in the library.") Would he have told the children that he was dithering between one hand, the duty to protect children and avenge James's death, and the other hand, loyalty to his friend Sirius ("I once promised I would die to save any of them, as they me"), and the thought of Dumbledore's reproach was only the last straw? Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99725 : << JKR tells us that we shouldn't rely entirely on our feelings to distinguish between good and evil, or at least we should be suspicious if something feels both right and pleasurable. >> Snotty answer: she herself got married (twice), had children (twice), wrote books, and bought a house, and has made statements indicating that she finds those things pleasurable. How suspicious was she that these things might be evil because they feel good? Less snotty answer: If not by our feelings, how is one to tell when an unpleasant, difficult choice is evil? Like Bella and her cowed menfolks trying to retrieve their Death Lord (and shouting out in court: "We alone were loyal!") when all their peers were simply grateful to get on with their lives without Azkaban? Like Kreachur leaving his house to seek out Narcissa? From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jun 7 04:34:38 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:34:38 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100222 > Geoff quotes: > ...."So what happens when a wand meets its brother?" said Sirius. > "They will not work properly against each other," said > Dumbledore. "If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to > do battle.... a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands > will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in > reverse. The most recent first. and then those which preceded > it...." > He looked interrogatively at Harry and Harry nodded.' > > (GOF "The Parting of the Ways" p.605 UK edition) > > Bookworm: > Something I didn't pick up until rereading your quotes just > now: "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate > spells..." > > By continuing the discussion of what the wands do, Dumbledore > glossed over the fact that *Harry's* wand made Voldemort's > wand do the regurgitating. What makes one wand stronger that the > other the wand itself or the wizard using it? Is it strength > or the spells used? Foreshadowing? ------------ Arya: I think it's will power more than anything and I've always thought that the Phoenix Song had a lot to do with giving Harry an edge. According to FBAWTFT, Phoenix Song strikes fear into the hearts of the impure (Voldemort) and courage into the hearts of the pure (Harry). Plus, Voldemort, I always thought was scared by the fact that he was stunned HP had foiled what should have been a simple AK yet again. In fact, we see in OotP that Voldemort is so hesitant to make ANY move to advance his regime of overlordship that he focuses solely on getting the detail so what makes Harry so damn special. So you've got the Phoenix Song helping and the fact that it surprised Voldemort to the point where he knew he was no longer on familar ground. Arya From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Mon Jun 7 04:39:29 2004 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:39:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny the Pinocchio effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100223 Ohhh just what I was looking for. Information about Harry and Ginny. I was just re-skimming OOP last night looking up just Harry and Ginny. Because after I saw POA with NO Ginny at all I was wondering if I was just basing my theroy's on air not cannon. So I looked 'em up and what did I find. Ginny the great malnipulator. Thru out OOP Ginny went out of her way to get Harry WHAT EVER he wanted. 1. When Harry and Ginny talked in common room about her cathing the snitch. Harry's says good job, and Ginny says oh Harry the other player sneezed and it was a slow snitch. I was lucky. You are the great seeker. I'm just filling in until you can get back on the team. (lie lie lie... Ginny is apparently quite good at flying and finding and catching the snich). But Harry is sad and Ginny cheers him up. (oh and she tells him she REALLY wants to be a chaser too) so don't worry about taking back your seeker position. 2. Hogshead, Ginny shows up with a boyfriend. Let's Ron and Harry both know. Ron is upset, Harry who was thinking of Cho wasn't AS interested. BUT this IS when Harry says "oh is that why she talks to me now" (hermion: yes Harry but, she still likes you "as a friend") 3. Easter eggs in the libary. Harry almost crys when Ginny gives him his easter egg. Ginny tells harry Cho is really upset too, why don't you make up. But Harry isn't thinking about Cho he wants Sirius. What does Ginny do? She pulls her strings and Harry gets to talk to Sirius. I think that Ginny still loves Harry, I think she has grown up enough to know that she might not get everything she wants... but, I do think that she is willfull enough and manilupative enough to get what she wants... ie, Harry. I did find it interesting that Ginny dumped Michael right after Harry and Cho's big fight. And on the train Ginny says she had picked her next boyfriend Dean thomas. But, I was reminded of the Pinocchio effect when she was talking and scratching her nose. (telling a lie). It is a fact that people do scrach a nose or fidget when telling a lie. Who knows, I am realy hoping that book 6 gets here soon. And then 7 right quick.. I'm tired of guessing.. I want to know what Jo says. Well, that is my take on it today.. it might chase later.. From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 7 04:49:50 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:49:50 -0400 Subject: Rereading POA - Dementors' Kiss Message-ID: <008f01c44c4a$dea71800$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100224 I'm finishing up my reread of POA and I'm on this moment right now: Fudge: "Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy... completely out of control..." It's been the general assumption that Fudge was talking about Dementors trying to Kiss Harry earlier at the lake and not too long ago there was a discussion here about who could've possibly seen it and told Fudge about it. So I thought, how do we know Fudge is talking about the incident with Harry? True, it's the only incident we have seen, but McNair was taking the Dementors to Kiss Sirius and I bet they were as dissappointed as Fudge when Sirius was nowhere to be found. Maybe, out of frustration, they attacked someone else? I know there's no real canon to support my theory aside from the fact that we don't know who could've told Fudge about Harry's near-Kiss, but it's possible, right? Or maybe I'm just reaching that hair-splitting, nitpicky point in my career as a fan... Alina. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 7 00:41:17 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:41:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: <1ac.252f3661.2df42074@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100225 Percy was a prefect in the first two books and head boy in the third...Fifth, Sixth and 7th years. Therefore, I'd assume that the head boy and girl are also prefects since Percy had both badges. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Mon Jun 7 00:00:22 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:00:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The number of students at Hogwarts, was Re: Questions abo... Message-ID: <5b.5079a79c.2df50a16@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100226 In a message dated 6/6/2004 7:51:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: > I think there are about 800 students at Hogwarts. I have just finished > rereading a scene in PoA which describes that Gryffindor vs Slytherin > Quidditch match. It described 3/4s of the school supporting Gryffindor and > 200 Slytherins wearing green cloaks. Somewhere in an interview that I can't recall, I beleive JKR said there were over or around 1000 students at Hogwarts. That would means the houses are probably about 250 or so students each. Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Sun Jun 6 22:30:45 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:30:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: <5a.2c6cb6c3.2df4f515@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100227 Alla writes: > Are you saying by extension that because they are different they > should not be allowed to Hogwarts at all? Because if you are, then my > very RL dislike of such philosophy kicks in very fast. I think this is different than someone being racist in our world. It seems to me more like the reverse discrimination that goes on in anti-white underground rap or gay hetero-phobia. If you look at it in terms of historical information about Judeo-Christian views of witchcraft (and I, myself, am a practicing pagan and have studied this subject at large), you will see burnings, hangings, stonings and general mistreatment of witches and anyone who may be associated to witchcraft. This would explain (not justify, simply explain the reason) their mistrust and negative feelings towards muggles. These feelings extend to muggle borns and muggle-raised children, because they have been raised with the average social standards of muggles. Prejudice is NEVER justified, but you can see the reason *why* it is there. Racism also comes from parents. Children learn morals from their parents. The anti-muggle sentiment has been around, probably, for generations and has been passed down from times when witches were being burned at the stake. The world of witchcraft is stuck in the proverbial closet, both in the Harry Potter books and in real life. Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Sun Jun 6 22:16:19 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:16:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chamber of Secrets Message-ID: <1e0.227a3a9d.2df4f1b3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100228 Meri writes: > Malfoy was never charged with anything because there was really no > evidence, except the blank diary, and that isn't enough to link him > to the book or an kind of plot. Also, Malfoy owns several people in the ministry. That's why he's never gotten in very much trouble for anything he's done, and I sure he's done plenty. Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 04:50:22 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:50:22 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: <001e01c44c0a$190ec9c0$aa560043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100229 This isn't a howler; I understand your points. I have to respectfully disagree on a few counts, however... "Eric Oppen" wrote: > reasons, forex. The prejudice might be against those _raised > outside the WW_...which would include one Harry James Potter, > as well as our Hermione. The thing is, that's *not* what the prejudice is. The canon is quite clear that Slytherins' disdain is based on blood, not upbringing. Is there an example in the text of any type of slur being directed at Harry (or another Muggle-raised Wizard) based on where they were raised, and not based on blood? I don't necessarily agree that discrimination based on upbringing is any more legitimate, in any event. True, muggle-raised wizards have some adapting to do when they arrive in the WW. The same thing happens in real life, when a person moves to a place that is culturally different from where he/she grew up. They arrive in their new homes, and they do their best to adapt. Some adapt better than others, and those that adapt poorly will have problems in their new home. That doesn't justify bigotry, however, and not in the WW any more than in RL. > If there ever comes a time when Wizard and Muggle values clash---can > Hermione be trusted, even if the wizards are in the right? She's > gone on with her house-elves'-rights campaign in the face of repeated > evidence that the house elves, themselves, do not _want_ to be free. > I'd think seeing how crushed Winky was would have gotten through to > her, but our Hermione is not one to let a little thing like evidence > get in the way. *snip* But why do you see that as a Muggle trait? Do you think there aren't others in the Wizarding world who can be just as stubborn when they believe they are right about something? > What if, for example, the majority of would-be Dark Overlord types > were Muggle-born? (Heck, if you include "Muggle-raised" in this > category, that would definitely include one Thomas Marvolo Riddle, > aka Lord Voldemort, now wouldn't it?) I find that to be unlikely. If it were demonstrably true that Muggle- raised children were more likely to turn to the dark side, then why would only one of the four houses have a problem with Muggle-borns? And furthermore, why would it be the Slytherin house that would have the problem; after all, Slytherin is undeniably the most "pro-dark side" of the four. If Muggle-raised children were more likely to become dark, Slytherins would presumably want *more* of them, right? > If I were living in the Wizard World, I'd be terribly handicapped---I > couldn't ride a broom, summon the Knight Bus, use the Floo, get onto > Platform 9 3/4, or even into Diagon Alley without someone there to > help me. > Once the novelty and wonder had worn off, I'd probably start to > hate it. All of this supports the idea that *Muggles* should probably not be living in the wizarding world. It does not pertain to Muggle-born or Muggle-raised wizards, however. --Cory From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 20:38:34 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:38:34 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100230 Anneli asked Could someone please tell me who, apart from Harry and DD, knows that Malfoy gave Ginny the diary - do the Weasleys? And why was Malfoy never charged with plotting to bring back VM? Mike answers, Dobby also knows because he tried to warn Harry and tipped off Harry to the ownership of the diary. Dumbledore said that it would be difficult to prove since the diary is now nonfunctioning. However, Malfoy was removed from the board of governors. From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 7 05:11:16 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Nicole Lewis) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040607051116.88188.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100231 vmonte here: Did anyone else find Draco's character to be unbelievable in PoA? Draco and gang were more like the three stooges. He was difficult to watch. Miranda now: vmonte you were not the only one! I understand what they were trying to do... play up some laughs, show that bullies aren't as tough as they seem, but I think it was a bit removed from Draco's character in the books. I think it is okay for POA, where Draco is still more of a mean bully than anything else, but later in the books, namely OotP, he becomes something else. He's a snitch for Umbridge, and he threatens the trio on several occasions and says truly hurtful things. Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for Draco, but I could see him being a key villian later in the series, potentially killing people as a DE, so he shouldn't be too much of a joke! Miranda - who hopes that wasn't too OT, what I really want to get at is book!Draco, not movie!Draco anyway From lkotur at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 01:38:53 2004 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (Damit Lazarus) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:38:53 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100232 Greetings, Having just seen the movie POA, I must say I was quite disappointed. The move was just an outline (threadbare at best) of the book. I know it hit the major storyline items (mostly) but there was so many details missing. Lupin's relationship with Harry wasn't even close to the depth of the relationship in the book. My question and concern is: As the Books get longer and more detailed, will Warner Brothers turn Harry into a cartoonish character and make the remaining movies look like highlight news reels. The reason for me posting this here instead of the movie group is I would like to know what you, the fans of the books, think about adapting the stories to screen. The first two books were "reproduced" on film to satisfy most "book" fans. The two remaining books are too complicated to put in a simple 2 hour 20 minute film. An example is LOTR and how Peter Jackson faithfully told the story of the ring (Minus Tom Bombadil and what happened to the SHIRE after the ring was destroyed). As fans of the books, should the movies capture the story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story upset book fans? Larry From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 20:58:15 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:58:15 -0000 Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100233 Pippin: > If Voldemort wanted to frame someone, he could probably brand > them with a fake, or get his servants in the ministry to say that > someone had the Dark Mark when they didn't. But I believe that > the Dark Marks faded immediately when Voldemort > discorporated. Something had to have happened to make > Dumbledore sure that Voldemort's power had broken. Snape's > mark fading would be a good clue. I see I see, I haven't thought of that fully.. makes sense.. I just thought, if Sirius was indeed the biggest LV supporter as people believed him to be, he would have the scar for sure.. and when the Ministry didn't find it, they would question the whole situation altogether.. but I don't reckon Fudge has that kinda brain.. and yes the scar would be invisible, sadly.. I'm sure it was a great-looking tattoo that DEs wanted to show off, lol! I don't think Sirius minded being known as the "mass murderer".. besides the fact that he couldn't go outside and yes, the dementors are/were still eager to give him the Kiss (multiple shudders), I daresay he enjoyed being the notorious one? hehe. Thank you very much for your intelligent and thoroughly sharp answers. I really have alot to learn! Brenda From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 23:40:49 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:40:49 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100234 Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what you think. 1) Harry is not writing his history class essay but is looking at a book on how to do spell motions. 2) Knight bus shrunken head. 3) Tom instead of Fudge meets Harry. 4) Fudge has all of Harry's books. 5) Arthur tells Harry instead of Harry overhearing Molly and Arthur. 6) Mrs. Weasley runs to the train with Scabbers. 7) Choir led by Flitwick. 8) Fat Lady singing (trying to break a glass) before opening the door. 9) Horseplay in the dormitory with some kind of candy that allows the eater to make certain noises. Seamus: monkey, Neville: elephant, Ron: lion, Harry: train(?). 10) In Hagrid's class everybody backs away except Harry, in the book Harry steps forward. 11) Bogart scene: Ron gives spider roller skates, Parvati's bogart is a snake instead of a mummy. Harry actually participates and Lupin steps in. 12) Lupin/Harry bridge scene. Lupin explains Lily and James and says that Harry is more like them than he ever knows. 13) When Snape takes over for Lupin / Malfoy's art. 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. 15) Fat Lady hides behind a hippo(?) in another picture. 16) While they are all sleeping in the great hall, Snape asks Dumbledore if Potter should be warned. 17) Fred and George know of Harry's invisibility cloak. 18) Harry pulls Malfoy into the perimeter of the Shrieking Shack's fence. 19) Harry cries on a rock and is comforted by Hermione. 20) Harry thinks of his mom and dad talking to him to fight the dementor (bogart). 21) Hagrid throws rocks on the lake. 22) Hermione punches Malfoy instead of slepping him. 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed. 24) Whomping Willow attacks Harry and Hermione and then throws them down the hole. 25) Pettigrew runs before being forced to show himself. 26) Harry uses Hermiones wand to disarm Snape. 27) There is a piano in the Shrieking Shack. 28) Sirus and Hermione try to talk to Lupin as he transforms and After he transforms. 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. 30) Soul ball (?) comes out of Sirius's mouth. 31) Hermione throws rock and howls after they go back in time. 32) Buckbeak defends Harry and Hermione from Lupin i werewolf form. 33) Harry's patronus emits a pulsating wave of light that chase off the dementors. 34) Goyle is missing from a few Slytherin scenes. I hope this gives something for all of us to think about until book 6 comes out. Mike From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon Jun 7 05:38:41 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 05:38:41 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" > wrote: > > > I have the same problem with Fudge and Snape (sorry, Professor > Snape) > > not picking up on Dumbledore's little dig about Harry and Hermione > > being in two places at once - even if Fudge is a bit dim, Snape > > certainly isn't and Time Turners would be just the sort of thing > he'd > > have read about, I'd think. > > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria > > I have heard someone say--I think it was on this group in fact-- that > the line you mention was Dumbledore's way of telling Snape that he > (DD) was in on it and to shut the heck up. > > The logic is that there's no way Professor Snape was unaware of the > Time Turner. No way at all, it would be completely unprofessional > for McGonagall to provide a student with something that could be used > to cheat without alerting the other professors. Therefore Snape knew > that she could be in two places at once and Dumbledore knew that > Snape knew and Snape knew that Dumbledore knew that Snape knew and > before this gets any more "Get Smart-ish" I'll just say that by > intimating that she couldn't be two places at once when he knew that > she could be, Dumbledore was indicating that he was aware of the > scheme. AmanitaMuscaria again - you're quite right. The staff must have been in on the TimeTurner to be available to cover for any little slip- ups, at the very least. I seem to have missed this bit on the list - sigh - so many good posts, so little time ... Cheers. Amanitamuscaria From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 05:59:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 05:59:31 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100236 > Marianne: > > No, the word "loner" never comes up from Sirius. He merely said that > Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses than half the kids in > seventh year. And that he hung out with a bunch of Slytherins who > all became DEs. This implies to me that Snape was not a friendless, > complete loner, as many want to believe after seeing the "Worse > Memory" scene. On the other hand, Sirius may not be the best source > of unbiased info on Snape. > > Marianne Carol: It does appear, though, that at least some of those "gang" members were older than Severus (we know from OoP that Bellatrix is three years older and it seems a reasonable assumption that the Lestrange brothers are closer to her age than his). Lucius Malfoy (admittedly not mentioned in the "gang" passage but a known associate of all the group members) is five or six years older (41 at the end of GoF). It seems likely that most of the group had left school by the time of the Pensieve incident. And I can't see the likes of Walden Macnair offering a helping hand against the Marauders even if he was still in school. (As for Regulus, he may or may not have been Severus' friend, but he was a child of about twelve when the incident happened.) So, no, Severus wasn't friendless, but he wasn't part of a tight clique of friends his own age as James and Sirius were. And he may have become a loner as his older friends left him behind, one by one. That would help to explain his present withdrawn personality (as would his having few friends who *didn't* become Death Eaters). Carol From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 7 06:12:25 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:12:25 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100237 imamommy: Something just hit me upside the head (owww!) In the PoA movie, in the scene when Harry is wearing the IC and throwing snowballs and taunting Malfoy and his cronies, he pulls down one of the boys pants to reveal a lurid set of boxers. (Sorry, I don't remember which kid, and I still am not sure which is which.) Now, it doesn't happen in the book this way, so the canonical reference is shaky, but it seems an interesting connection between Harry and James' behavior in "Snape's Worst Memory". Why does Harry torment Crabbe and Goyle? merely because they exist? Remember, according to Sirius, Snape was sort of Lucius' stooge. (Granted he has more brains than C&G put together). I think it's an interesting similarity, anyway. Comments? imamommy From bd-bear at verizon.net Mon Jun 7 06:20:10 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:20:10 -0000 Subject: Buying UK versions of books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100238 Hi everyone, I am looking into buying the UK version of the books, since I am in the US and have the US versions. I really want to read them the way they were intended to be read. I was just wondering if the books I've seen being sold individually have the same cover/spine art as the ones being sold in the box set. Hopefully someone in the UK or Canada will know what I am referring to. I've seen the box sets on ebay and on Amazon.co.uk and I want to find out if they are the same in appearance as the ones sold individually. You can e-mail me off-list if you wish. Thanks in advance. Barbara aka bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 06:39:30 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 02:39:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <133.2ffc11fa.2df567a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100239 In a message dated 06/05/2004 12:23:18 PM Central Daylight Time, jdr0918 at hotmail.com writes: > A lot has been made of the fact that movie Harry doesn't have green > eyes, while both movie Hermione and movie Draco both have the canon > haircolor through the miracle of modern science. And it's not as if > 11-year old actors can't wear contacts. > in this instance . .if I'm recalling it correctly . .they attempted to use contacts and DR couldn't wear them. IMO as long as Lily and Harry have eyes that are the same (in whatever manner Rowling intends) then that all that's important Melissa (who is counting the minutes until she can go see it again) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 06:42:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:42:51 -0000 Subject: sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: Neri: > This is indeed a point that I always wanted to ask the British here. > Is my impression correct that the name Harry Potter does have > a "common" sound to it? To my knowledge Harry is indeed the common > form of the more aristocratic Henry. Wasn't King Henry the VIII, for > example, known as "Great Harry" to the commoners? Geoff: There are a fair number of contractions. Henry often becomes Harry - and in earlier days as a "familiar" name - Hal. This can be seen in Shakespeare. Some of the contractions become the given name, Harry included. Examples are: Sarah/Sally (sometimes Sal as a familiar name),William/Bill, Terence/Terry (often Tel in London). Harry is quite acceptable as a name despite Petunia's comment. She was just being waspish I think..... From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 06:50:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:50:42 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: Snow: > I had also wondered about the difference between the spellings and or > meanings of Priori Incantato vs. Priori Inacntatem. The only > reference that I can think of that might relate would be parcel mouth > and parcel tougue. > Priori Incantato is to Priori Incantatem as Parcel Mouth is to Parcel > Tongue. > > Don't know if that helps but thats what I thought! Geoff: There is, I think, a subtle difference. In the books' usage, Parseltongue is the language but is sometimes used also to refer to the speaker whereas Parselmouth can only be used of the speaker, not the language. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 06:57:54 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:57:54 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > Only that "Priori Incantatem" is the name of the spell, and "Prior > Incantato" is the incantation for using it. It's just like "Cruciatus > Curse" and "Crucio!" or "Imperius Curse" and "Imperio!" In the > brother-wand reverse-spell *effect,* as you say, no incantation was > necessary. > > I'm having trouble thinking of other really good examples, but in GoF, > in the maze, when Harry wants to get through the hedge to rescue > Cedric from the Cruciatus curse, he uses what is called the "Reductor > Curse," and I believe the incantation was "reducto!" Also I remember > that the spell that is called the Stunning Spell has the incantation > "Stupefy!" Geoff: I take your point. However, there is an element of inconsistency here. The tendency is for the casting of the spell to use the Latin vocative case (the "speaking case") which usually ends in an "o". There are exceptions: "tantallegra" and "serpensortia" come to mind and then there are stupefy" and "scourgify" aren't Latin. But then, languages tend to break their own rules because of usage anf the fact that they are organic, developing entities From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 07:29:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 07:29:14 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100243 bboy_mn wrote: I'm stumped! I can't see how or why a graveyard would be at Hogwarts, and can't see how to work it into the plot, and I'm usually pretty> good at doing that. > > The only thing that comes to me is that maybe Harry's parents are > buried there. Or maybe, the location is only incidental; something > will happen in the graveyard that is not directly related to the > graveyard itself. > > Anyone care to speculate? Carol: It may well have to do with Harry's parents, if only to satisfy our suriosity about what happened after their bodies were found and to get Harry to start asking questions. But it may also have something to do with the ghosts. I've always wondered why NHN and the Bloody Baaron and for that matter, the Fat Friar, chose to be Hogwarts ghosts. Surely they had their own castles or cloisters or whatever to haunt? Surely they didn't die (like Professor Binns) in Hogwarts itself or on the Hogwarts grounds. But if they're buried in a cemetery on the grounds, their presence at Hogwarts at least makes some degree of sense. Carol From SnapesRaven at web.de Mon Jun 7 09:01:47 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:01:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) References: Message-ID: <000901c44c6e$108bd6d0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 100244 ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Bannister To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 8:57 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > Only that "Priori Incantatem" is the name of the spell, and "Prior > Incantato" is the incantation for using it. It's just like "Cruciatus > Curse" and "Crucio!" or "Imperius Curse" and "Imperio!" In the > brother-wand reverse-spell *effect,* as you say, no incantation was > necessary. > > I'm having trouble thinking of other really good examples, but in GoF, > in the maze, when Harry wants to get through the hedge to rescue > Cedric from the Cruciatus curse, he uses what is called the "Reductor > Curse," and I believe the incantation was "reducto!" Also I remember > that the spell that is called the Stunning Spell has the incantation > "Stupefy!" Geoff: I take your point. However, there is an element of inconsistency here. The tendency is for the casting of the spell to use the Latin vocative case (the "speaking case") which usually ends in an "o". There are exceptions: "tantallegra" and "serpensortia" come to mind and then there are stupefy" and "scourgify" aren't Latin. But then, languages tend to break their own rules because of usage anf the fact that they are organic, developing entities [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesRaven at web.de Mon Jun 7 09:17:57 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:17:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem -> spell endings References: Message-ID: <001301c44c70$52971e20$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 100245 Geoff wrote: However, there is an element of inconsistency here. The tendency is for the casting of the spell to use the Latin vocative case (the "speaking case") which usually ends in an "o". There are exceptions: "tantallegra" and "serpensortia" come to mind and then there are stupefy" and "scourgify" aren't Latin. But then, languages tend to break their own rules because of usage anf the fact that they are organic, developing entities Now SnapesRaven: You are right (as well as Annemehr), but I'd like to add my thoughts to this. I dwelled on the forming of curses/incantations/spells and came to the same conclusion - almost. You pointed out correctly that the vocative case is the one mostly used in a spell. But I think there's an easy explanation as to why for example "serpensortia" and "tarantallegra" (and others) are different. You say, "Imperio!" when intending to control another person; you say, "Reducto!" when you want to magically drill a hole into something (if I recall correctly), you say, "Alohomora!" when willing a door to open. Do you see what I mean? - Whenever someone intends to do something *himself* with help of the spell, e.g., control another person, there is the use of the 'o' ending. This correlates with the Latin meaning: imperi-o means 'I order', imperi-mus means 'we order' etc. It depends on the individual share the caster has in the outcome of the spell. (Oh dear, I think I'm not very successful at stating my point clearly, am I?) The -a ending is more of an order itself ("Alohomora!" -> order for the door to open [by itself]), it doesn't serve as an expression of the caster's own action but simply makes something happen. I hope this helped... SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 09:41:21 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:41:21 -0000 Subject: The number of students at Hogwarts, was Re: Questions abo... In-Reply-To: <5b.5079a79c.2df50a16@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/6/2004 7:51:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > alina at d... writes: > > > I think there are about 800 students at Hogwarts. I have just finished > > rereading a scene in PoA which describes that Gryffindor vs Slytherin > > Quidditch match. It described 3/4s of the school supporting Gryffindor and > > 200 Slytherins wearing green cloaks. > > Somewhere in an interview that I can't recall, I beleive JKR said there were > over or around 1000 students at Hogwarts. That would means the houses are > probably about 250 or so students each. > Yuiren > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Sue: I've heard this before. The only question I have is: do they have the same number of students at each year level? Because if they do, Gryffindor, for example, would only have about 70 students spread across seven year levels. There are certainly only 10 students in Harry's year - five boys and five girls, no doubt why they have to take classes with other Houses. In COS, there are twenty pairs of earmuffs for a joint Gryffindor/ Hufflepuff Herbology class, suggesting that there are only about ten Hufflepuffs at that level too. If we assume that all the Houses have about the same number of students - and it makes sense, since there seems to be a cosy dormitory/common room arrangement that I don't think would have space for 250 kids - then there are only about 280 students in the school, again making sense in light of the small size of the staff - one potions teacher, one transfiguration teacher, etc. Allowing for a small difference between year levels, there really shouldn't be more than about 300 -320 kids in the school. But, as you say, there is that Quidditch match... I don't know. Editing situation? :-) From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 09:40:44 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:40:44 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100247 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > >> My guess would be that Harry's parents are buried there, but > > that their headstones have different dates for the day they > died. I think > > James was probably killed a few days before GH, and that the > > male voice (Harry hears during the dementor scene) yelling for > > Lily to run with Harry is not his father. > Katydidnt2002 wrote: > *blinks in confusion* where did this idea come from? I mean I have > read this theory before, but the only basis in canon that there is > is tenuous at best (as I see it). Pip!Squeak: It came from the canon that Lupin reacts strangely to Harry saying that he heard James die (as if he knew James wasn't there). It was then added to by the movie NOT showing James at all when Voldemort attacks, just showing Lily. Movies aren't canon, but it's always interesting when you think you may have spotted a trick in the books, and the movie is cut in a way that supports it. Given that the PS/SS movie had already hired an actor to play James, it seemed faintly odd not to show him in the Voldemort attack scene. Unless, of course, the question of whether James *was* actually there when Voldemort attacked Lily and Harry is important in a not- yet-written book. It then becomes apparent that they couldn't possibly show James in the movie scene; that would be definite evidence that he was there. Hence the theory. Negative evidence is still evidence - it's important that the dog doesn't bark in the night-time. :-) katiedidnt2002: > I guess what I mean is why do you buy into it as much as you do? > Well, I do know theories like this are fun to play with *shrugs* Pip!Squeak: Yes, they are fun to play with. More to the point, demanding to know why the others are playing that fun game (because you think it's *stupid* and don't want to play it) is generally considered to be bad playground etiquette. Especially when there are plenty of other posts to reply to that aren't discussing speculative theories. katiedidnt2002: > But more to the point-why would this be an important development > or important fact for books 6 and 7? It seems to me that this > information, both there existing a graveyard and his parents > possibly being buried in it (whether or not they died the same day), > would only be important as another fact that Harry might be > interested in knowing but has not been told. Would it have any > other significance to the plot? Pip!Squeak: What significance could a graveyard have? Firstly, if his parents *are* buried there, I would be very, very angry not to have been told that (if I were Harry). It would be another stage in the 'don't trust Dumbledore, he only tells you what he wants you to know - which may not be the same as what you want to know.' That could be an important plot point - especially if Dumbledore dies because Harry didn't trust him any more. Secondly, there could be someone *else* buried there (near Harry's parent's graves) who is a plot point in one of the later books (for example, yet another Hogwarts imposter is revealed by a gravestone...). It then becomes important that Harry doesn't find out about the graveyard/parental graves until later in the book. Thirdly, we might find out the extent of Voldemort War One through the graveyard/Harry's parent's graves. If there are, say, sixty gravestones of Hogwarts students nearby, or a memorial to students killed which is full of names. Harry would go to look at that because his parents' names would be on it. That possibility might also be quite an important point in Book six or seven - especially if the names are separated by *house*, and the inscription is 'killed fighting Voldemort'. Were Slytherins killed fighting Voldemort? Again, if Harry had known that earlier, it might have affected his behaviour in earlier books. Fourthly, vmonte might be right, and Harry finds his parents didn't die on the same day. Who was in the house with Lily then becomes important. If Harry had known this earlier (say in PoA), he would have insisted on knowing. Fifthly, more gloomily, we might meet the graveyard a second time because one of our protagonists is being buried in it. Some idiot might then try to do a raising from the dead type spell (for good or evil purposes). Knowledge of the graveyard is being kept back for maximum dramatic effect - Harry seeing his parent's graves will be foreshadowing that he's about to lose someone close to him. Sixthly ... but you get the point. There are a large number of possible plot points that a graveyard could be used for, and some perfectly good reasons that an author might keep the information that there *is* a graveyard from Harry. The graveyard itself could well be a joint graveyard for Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. That would mean it would probably be a part of the outer castle, on the Hogsmeade side (a track leading from village to graveyard). Hogsmeade itself probably grew up as a typical 'service village' to the castle - assuming that when Hogswarts was originally built, the only means of magical travel was broomstick. Pip!Squeak From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 09:45:50 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:45:50 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > > > Sherry wrote: > > > > I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in > > the book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was > already > > in Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name > > because Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by > > Crookshanks, we don't know where he was, except that he ended up > in a > > bottle in Hagrid's hut on the fateful day. I think he must have > been > > off the grounds in some way every time Harry looked at the map, > > otherwise, Harry would have seen his name. Unless Harry just wasn't > > looking in the right place, being focused on who might catch him > > sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the grounds. If that > > makes any sense. > > > > Luckie: > > But why didn't the twins ever notice Pettigrew when they had the > map? Ron was in his third year in PoA, they had had the map since > their first year, so they had 2 full years in which to stumble on > Pettigrew's name. The only thing I can think of is that 1) they > didn't know who Pettigrew was (Although I think they did - can > anyone find them mentioning Sirius's supposed crimes in canon?) or > that, like Harry, they were simply looking at the part of the map > they needed to escape at that particular moment - which wouldn't > have been gryffindor tower, where Peter was. > > ~Luckie dorapye: I was skimming through PoA to find canon regarding the map and PP. Harry only actually use the map once before PP fakes his death again and disappears (to Hagrid's Hut, more later..) At this point, he uses the map to observe the corridors around the one-eyed old crone and then disappears down the tunnel; Ron is already in Hogsmeade, but even if we assume that he did not take PP with him (would PP *want* to leave the safe school grounds, if he's scared that sirius is after him? I think Scabbers would have protested evry strongly if Ron had tried to take him to Hogsmeade)then Harry would not have even cast his eye over the Gryffindor common room or dorms, so would not have identified PP on the map. However, Lupin says somethign very interesting in the Shrieking Shack when explaining how he saw Peter: "...'I wastched you (the trio) cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid and set off back towards the castle. But you were now accompanied by someone else." Now, we know how Scabbers was discovered in Hagrid's hut, and I think it is safe to assume that he had been hiding in the milk jug in Hagrid's hut since before the trio arrived that evening. So why, if Lupin was looking at the map and observed the trio going into the hut, did he not spot PP til they *left*? The answer would be that Hagrid's hut is a blind spot on the map. It could be, as some have speculated, outside the Hogwarts grounds, or it could be that when Messrs Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs were designing their map, they left Hagrid's hut a blind spot, as they were not likely to need info on who was moving around in there for their marauding adventures; they only needed the corridors and rooms of the castle, some of the grounds and the tunnels to show mischief-inhibiting foes. Hagrid, well we know if he catches the trio out after curfew, the most they get is a stern shouting at from him, he certainly doesn't dob them into to their head of House. I'm willing to bet, with his fondness for James and co, he took a similar attitude with MWPP. Hagrid's hut was never a threat to the Marauders, so they didn't bother to cover it on their map; you could see who went in and who came out, but the hut was a blind spot. Of course, Peter would know this, which explains why he turned up there. He'd have known that Harry had the map, could've guessed that with Lupin around now, the map may find itself in the hands of teaching staff who might actually be able to work it and would see him. A very good reason to fake his death and hole himself up in one of the few safe places within Hogwarts grounds where he would not have been identified by the map. And that's with Buckbeak chained up there and being fed on rats - which just go to show how desperate Peter must have been to evade his old friends. Does this sound plausible? dorapye From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 7 10:14:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:14:49 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Damit Lazarus" wrote: > Greetings, > > Having just seen the movie POA, I must say I was quite disappointed. > The move was just an outline (threadbare at best) of the book. I > know it hit the major storyline items (mostly) but there was so many > details missing. snip.. > As fans of the books, should the movies capture the > story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story upset > book fans? > There was a recent post by Eloise on the OT board that expressed her opinions on just this aspect - and I suspect (hope) that her views are shared by many of the fans. Basically it was "Books Rule - OK!" I for one refuse to accept that the interpretations of a director who admitted never having read the books are even a pale reflection of canon. Warner Bros. are in the film business. Their aim is to produce a healthy bottom line, not to be true to the spirit or even substance of a well-loved book. Recall the horror that swept fandom a few years back when it looked as if Speilberg was going to direct PS and what he intended to do to the story. Relief all round when he was sidelined *except* in some quarters in Hollywood - because he puts bums on seats just by being associated with a film, and to them that's what matters. I posted last year that I wished that I'd never seen the films. I'd read the books and I had a clear picture of exactly what Harry, Hagrid, Snape, DD and all the rest looked like. Not now - they've been usurped by someone else's vision. I've lost good 'friends' and it's too late to call them back. If, as we all hope, the books become much loved all-time classics there's a strong possibility that many if not most future readers will see the films before reading the books. It's more or less inevitable given how quickly films go to DVD and TV. How heavily will they be influenced by first seeing the story filtered by someone else? We're lucky - we're ahead of the game, most of us were immersed in the WW first and in some respects we still lead by a short head - we'll read books 6 & 7 before the films in their unavoidably condensed versions hit the public. For later generations that won't be so. Hopefully having seen the films many will graduate to the books, but it's probable that their reading will still be influenced by the filmic interpretation. Character traits, emphases, body language, appearance all have an immediate and lasting impact when encountered visually and I think it inevitable that there will be carry-over. OK, I'm a purist and I'm not ashamed of it. The current threads that delve into the minutiae of the PoA film are irrelevant so far as I'm concerned; I haven't read any of them. Why bother? The film isn't canon, it's a version of fan-fic IMO. The true quill it ain't. This doesn't mean that the films are not good entertaining fare; that will be decided by the audiences, just that the books and the films are "clean different things"; each should be considered on it's merits and clear distinctions made between the two. After all, that's why there's a separate board for the HP films. I've seen the first two films, but I don't think I'll bother going to see this one and probably not any of those still to come. I find they restrict my imagination. Others probably feel differently; each to his own. I take heart from an exchange between a critic and a writer (forgotten who) who had just signed a big film deal for his book: "Aren't you afraid they'll ruin it?" "They can't ruin the book; all they can do is ruin the film." Kneasy From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jun 7 10:04:45 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:04:45 -0000 Subject: Dark Future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100250 I haven't seen yet the POA movie but I am thrilled about the signs of darkness that the film shows (If I understood correctly what the other members described). It is logical to believe that book 6 will be the darkest of the whole saga. War will be intensified. There will be more deaths and I am sure a couple of people close to Harry will face the doom from LV hands. Harry's emotional burden is becoming greater and greater with every installment. If we add adolescence we have a very dangerous situation. My predictions about the book 6: 1) Harry will try consciously or unconsciously to isolate himself from the others for the fear of causing more deaths. 2) Harry will be tempted to the dark arts. He will be full of rage and hatred and he will try to acquire powers and skills from every source possible in order to face LV. 3) True feelings and desires will be revealed in the face of the nightmarish reality. I don't know the pairings, although I wish a Harry/Hermione eternal love (please I express a wish, there is no reason for dispute with the Ron/Hermione shippers). 4) Maybe we will witness Harry killing an enemy(DE or who knows)or even more as a result of overwhelming feelings(hatred or love). P.S. As you already understand I am not an English native speaker/writer. I ask your forgiviness for my blunders (either grammar or expressive ones). "paul_terzis" From bd-bear at verizon.net Mon Jun 7 07:44:25 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 03:44:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100251 >>>From: Damit Lazarus [mailto:lkotur at yahoo.com] ... I would like to know what you, the fans of the books, think about adapting the stories to screen. The first two books were "reproduced" on film to satisfy most "book" fans. . . As fans of the books, should the movies capture the story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story upset book fans?<<< I have heard fans weigh in on both sides. Some people, like myself, feel that the movies should be the book come to life, so to speak. Even with some deletions and edits for time, I think a movie version of these books should not go against canon, have other characters saying things they're not supposed to say, or events happen differently, if it can possibly be helped. But others seem to feel the books are one thing and the movies are another separate entity. I believe all of the people who have weighed in on this and others lists regarding their liking of the PoA movie are all (or most of them are) book fans. So to answer your question, I think you'll find the fans split on this issue. JMO Barbara aka bd-bear From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 11:23:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:23:25 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100252 x "Damit Lazarus" wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Having just seen the movie POA, I must say I was quite disappointed. > > The move was just an outline (threadbare at best) of the book. I > > know it hit the major storyline items (mostly) but there was so many > > details missing. > snip.. > > As fans of the books, should the movies capture the > > story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story upset > > book fans? Kneasy answered: > > OK, I'm a purist and I'm not ashamed of it. The current threads that > delve into the minutiae of the PoA film are irrelevant so far as I'm > concerned; I haven't read any of them. Why bother? The film isn't > canon, it's a version of fan-fic IMO. The true quill it ain't. Potioncat: Boy, it's going to be hard to keep this OT! Kneasy, it's funny you called the film fan-fic because on my way home from the movie (enjoyed it and disappointed in it) I thought, that was just well done fan-fic. But I don't blame the director, I blame you. (Not you personally, Kneasy) but HPfGU. In the old days, I read a HP book and thought "Very good book. Can't wait for the movie." Then, I would enjoy the movie as a separate event Now that I'm a nit-picking, book-carrying canon thumper, it's really hard to just sit back and enjoy the movie. And there was lots to enjoy in this movie. However, anything I'd add would be better to post on the other site. I'm just not sure I have time to maintain two sets of posts!!!! Potioncat (who also hosted a Harry Potter birthday party for my 10 year old this weekend!...all games true to canon of course!) From laurens at leroc.net Mon Jun 7 10:29:13 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:29:13 -0000 Subject: sharing an unimportant discovery that made me laugh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Harry is quite acceptable as a name despite Petunia's comment. She > was just being waspish I think..... Perhaps she was refering to the phrase "Every Tom, Dick or Harry" - all common names, meaning everyone? Of course, the only other character we have with such a common name refuses to be known by it! Harry is also short for Harold - again, another royal name. Lauren -x- From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Mon Jun 7 10:13:49 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:13:49 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100254 Larry "Damit Lazarus" wrote: > My question and concern is: As the Books get longer and more > detailed, will Warner Brothers turn Harry into a cartoonish character > and make the remaining movies look like highlight news reels. > The first two books were "reproduced" on film to satisfy most "book" > fans. The two remaining books are too complicated to put in a simple > 2 hour 20 minute film. As fans of the books, should the movies > capture the story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story > upset book fans? Jospehine now: *sigh* This is really the age old question of whether we should read the books first, or see the movies first. As an avid reader, and as most people on this site a stupidly obsessed fan of the HP books, I find it ridiculously easy to rip apart the films. I am the one who complains loudly at the end of the movie while walking back to the car, and during it screams in pain when I see Harry sitting on a rock crying in full view of his friends. The loud *tuts* from the front row... That's me! But we, on this site, are of the few and far between. My husband has seen all three films, without even picking up a HP book. And he thinks they are great. He sees them for what they are, wheras we see the missing components that make the HP series so compulsive. My husband thinks I'm nuts to want to discuss the books in such detail, to theorise and ponder. But as someone who has only seen the film versions he doesn't understand! (As she shouts from the rooftops!!!) He doesn't need the long details and the more complicated plot that the books offer to be jammed into the movie. He would be bored. And he would be confused (bless him!). If he was made to sit through a fully comprehensieve version of GOF I would never hear the end of it. The films are for the masses, the books are for those who love to read and fill their minds with imagination. WB does not make the movies for us book readers. They are making them for the general public to introduce them in someway to the world of Harry Potter. And no, some people will never understand... In my opinion, don't let the 'threadbare' movies ruin the way you feel towards HP. The best movies are the words that make pictures in our heads. Josephine From annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 7 11:38:24 2004 From: annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk (annelilucas) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:38:24 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100255 Anneli: who, apart from Harry and DD, knows that Malfoy gave Ginny the diary Meri: DD seems to have his suspicions about Malfoy, as evidenced by his words of advice to Malfoy (something about it being a bad idea to start passing out Tom Riddle's old school things to innocent people). The Weasley's probably don't know, though I am sure that Arthur could figure it out. As for who else knew, Dobby, did gregory_lynn: I cannot imagine that Dumbledore didn't tell the Weasleys. Their daughter was all but killed due to Malfoy's actions, Dumbledore knows it, and he's not going to tell? Anneli: Do Ron, Hermione and/or Ginny know? I don't remember there being any speculation between them as to how Ginny could have acquired the diary. Anneli From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 11:47:33 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:47:33 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100256 vmonte: I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie scenario.) Here my point -- Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year old). He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the rubble. Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his death. vmonte - Remember I said it was a dream. Don't attack me for not stating cannon evidence. vmonte From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 11:50:34 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:50:34 -0000 Subject: PINE news about Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100257 Greetings, I have a quote from Chris Rankin from a BBC interview which I read on HPANA. (He also talks about what wasn't in the movie that should have been. We should invite him to join our little group! ;-) Q: You were chatting to JK Rowling at the premier party - any hints towards book six yet? CR: Yes and no. I got a bit of information out of her. I said 'I want a word with you Miss Rowling, I've been getting hate mail about Percy Weasley.' She did hint he might just redeem himself in the future, we'll have to wait and see. Q: Somewhat non-committal then. Yes, but it's more than anybody seems to have got out of her in a very long time. He might redeem himself. [Laughs] Potioncat again: OK, bow and cast your spells to disarm only, we don't want any injuries.... From chrissilein at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 12:11:16 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:11:16 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Clue_for_release_of_book_7_on_JKR=B4s_official_website=3F?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100258 Hi, if you check out the section Fan-Sites on the official website of JKR you will see the cup (Immeritus) with 5 decorations (one of them is signed with 2004). 4 of them are still empty of course. They are representing the years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Right now we are at the end of the first term of 2004. That means there are still 6 month back until 2005. If you now put together 4 years and 6 month, you will end up at end of 2008 or the beginning of 2009. I highly believe this is a real clue or hint for the release of the last Harry Potter book. And I would say 4 1/2 years (or maybe nearly 5 years) are quite realistic. Yours LadyOfThePensieve. From patnkatng at cox.net Mon Jun 7 12:21:24 2004 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:21:24 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso Cuaron > relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. > > --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- > I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see > Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'. > > She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' > She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the > castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because > such and such and such.' > > --- End Quote --- > > I'm stumped! I can't see how or why a graveyard would be at Hogwarts, > and can't see how to work it into the plot, and I'm usually pretty > good at doing that. > > The only thing that comes to me is that maybe Harry's parents are > buried there. Or maybe, the location is only incidental; something > will happen in the graveyard that is not directly related to the > graveyard itself. > > Also, I think we need to consider that Cuaron was probably > paraphrasing and perhaps generalizing a bit. So, I'm not sure we can > trust what he said as an absolute statement of fact... more like a > broad somewhat generalized fact. > > Full interview- > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_3758000/3758101.stm > > Anyone care to speculate? > > bboy_mn Katrina now: So far the pattern for the books has placed each of Harry's Final Confrontations with LV either underground or in a place associated with death. If there is a graveyard at Hogwarts, then it would provide a convenient place for another HP-LV confrontation on school grounds and stay within the current pattern. Maybe this will be the location of the Final Showdown in book 7? From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 13:08:23 2004 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:08:23 -0000 Subject: a lot of things, scroll for your name, Shrieking Shack at the end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Highly interesting stuff snipped which I must go back and consider. > Catherine McK wrote ini > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100007 : > > << A possibility for Sirius [having won a trophy] could be involvement > in one of those moments of defying Voldemort that James and Lily had > before leaving school. I certainly don't see him as the Quidditch team > type. >> > > I don't see Sirius as a team player either, but he might have won a > trophy in an individual sport. Was there a Duelling Club Champion when > there was a Duelling Club? Were there intramural broomstick races? Duelling club champion would be good - Bellatrix and Sirius could both be top at that in their time. Sirius is clearly a good dueller; he gives Bellatrix a much better run for her money than the professions Kinglsey and Tonks. > accessory to/attempted/murder, or ... um > ... unlawfully inflicting lycanthropy? >> > Lol! Catherine McK From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 13:19:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:19:04 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100261 vmonte wrote: snip > > Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year old). > He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there > but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed > there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because > Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the rubble. > Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his death. > > vmonte - Remember I said it was a dream. Don't attack me for not > stating cannon evidence. > Potioncat: IIRC your name is Vivian....as in Vivian (Nemue) and Merlin....and you are having dreams that prophesy the Harry Potter stories....Well, I am for one am not going to argue with magic. I have a feeling (Sorry, Kneasy, no canon) that a time turner plays into the Snape/Harry relationship. Snape seems intent on teaching Harry certain potion making skills that he seems to know Harry will need. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 13:32:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:32:12 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100262 > imamommy: > Something just hit me upside the head (owww!) In the PoA movie, in > the scene when Harry is wearing the IC and throwing snowballs and > taunting Malfoy and his cronies, he pulls down one of the boys pants > to reveal a lurid set of boxers. (Sorry, I don't remember which kid, > and I still am not sure which is which.) Now, it doesn't happen in > the book this way, so the canonical reference is shaky, but it seems > an interesting connection between Harry and James' behavior in > "Snape's Worst Memory". Potioncat: Yes, I read about this scene before the movie and thought the same thing. Now, the interesting thing is, PoA was filming when OoP came out. So when was this scene added? Along the same line, Aunt Marge is floating out doors with her undergarments in view as well, much like the Muggles in GoF. So the audience is laughing at these two scenes, but should be shocked at the canon episodes.....I'm not sure how that is going to play. Potioncat (who can see it now, before the OoP movie starts I'll stand up and say, anyone who laughs at the Snape in the air scene will suffer my wrath...) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 13:43:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:43:15 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100263 > > Alina, > > who after seeing the movie and loving it came to a horrifying > realization > > that absolutely every explanation has been cut out making it > alienating and > > incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read the books. > > Susan (teilani) here: > And I couldn't be happier. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I was > really happy to hear that they didn't do a bunch of explaining and > repeating. IMHO, it's just going to make it better. They didn't > have to waste time telling everyone who Harry is, because most of the > world already knows that! Potioncat: s p o i l e r s But what I think Alina means, is that the movie didn't explain itself. There wasn't a lot of glue to the different little episodes and unless you were anticipating the next event, it most likely didn't make sense. I also think that by changing the events that occured between the Shreiking Shack and hospital wing and leaving out the enraged Snape with Fudge, they've left a big gap for GoF. For example, I think one of the reasons Snape is so nasty in GoF is because of Black's escape. Potioncat (OK I admit it, I'm pretending lofty ideals but I really wanted to see Alan Rickman do a Sheriff of Nottingham as Snape) From technomad at intergate.com Mon Jun 7 13:47:16 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (ericoppen) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:47:16 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > This isn't a howler; I understand your points. I have to > respectfully disagree on a few counts, however... > > "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > reasons, forex. The prejudice might be against those _raised > > outside the WW_...which would include one Harry James Potter, > > as well as our Hermione. > > > The thing is, that's *not* what the prejudice is. The canon is quite > clear that Slytherins' disdain is based on blood, not upbringing. Is > there an example in the text of any type of slur being directed at > Harry (or another Muggle-raised Wizard) based on where they were > raised, and not based on blood? And _how_ often do you find the children of wizards and witches raised in the Muggle world? Considering how difficult wizards and witches are to kill, and how long-lived they are, I'd be willing to bet longish odds that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter are about the only examples of such a situation in centuries. Muggle-born wizards and witches, OTOH, are apparently not that uncommon. > > I don't necessarily agree that discrimination based on upbringing is > any more legitimate, in any event. True, muggle-raised wizards have > some adapting to do when they arrive in the WW. The same thing > happens in real life, when a person moves to a place that is > culturally different from where he/she grew up. They arrive in their > new homes, and they do their best to adapt. Some adapt better than > others, and those that adapt poorly will have problems in their new > home. That doesn't justify bigotry, however, and not in the WW any > more than in RL. Think of it as like religions. _Back in the day,_ which is not all that long ago for the WW (remember that elderly Professor who reminisced about giving 150+-year-old Albus Dumbledore his NEWT exams?)you could convert from one religion to another, but once you had, you _would_ be watched by your new co-religionists, and would be well-advised to avoid any behavior that suggested that your conversion was less-than-sincere, particularly if there was advantage to be gained by it. For example, Jews converting to Christianity were welcomed---but were well-advised to eat _lots_ of pork and other non-kosher foods, and to avoid even the appearance of falling back into Jewish customs. Same-same would go for someone converting to Islam or Judaism, which are the religions that would be relevant to this case. And, again, _we don't know_ how dodgy a rep Muggle-born or Muggle- raised wizards and witches have. All it would take would be a few really spectacular examples of such gone bad to give them all a bad reputation. Add in the fact that until very, very recently (historically speaking) they would come from backgrounds where magic was regarded as, at best, sinful, and the fact that, under sufficient stress, people often _will_ revert to the things they were taught as young children (Does anybody else here remember the Jesuits' saying of "Give us a child until the age of six and he is ours forever?") and you have a recipe for Trouble In River City. Can you imagine the havoc a wizard could cause if, forex, he had had a breakdown and honestly thought that Magic Is Sinful And I Must Eradicate It? > > > If there ever comes a time when Wizard and Muggle values clash--- can > > Hermione be trusted, even if the wizards are in the right? She's > > gone on with her house-elves'-rights campaign in the face of repeated > > evidence that the house elves, themselves, do not _want_ to be free. > > I'd think seeing how crushed Winky was would have gotten through to > > her, but our Hermione is not one to let a little thing like evidence > > get in the way. *snip* > > But why do you see that as a Muggle trait? Do you think there aren't > others in the Wizarding world who can be just as stubborn when they > believe they are right about something? It isn't a Muggle trait, true enough. However, someone who persists in mis-applying Muggle beliefs in the face of mounting evidence that they do not apply in the WW is about to run into serious difficulties. _House-elves, giants and centaurs are NOT humans and do not react like humans, d*mn-it,_ and insisting on ignoring this fact is uncharacteristically stupid and shows the strong effects of Hermione's early Muggle upbringing, in which Slavery Is Wrong, Period. Come to it---could Grawp have been brought into the story as a clue-by-four for our favorite Muggleborn witch---to show her that > > > What if, for example, the majority of would-be Dark Overlord types > > were Muggle-born? (Heck, if you include "Muggle-raised" in this > > category, that would definitely include one Thomas Marvolo Riddle, > > aka Lord Voldemort, now wouldn't it?) > > I find that to be unlikely. If it were demonstrably true that Muggle- > raised children were more likely to turn to the dark side, then why > would only one of the four houses have a problem with Muggle-borns? Firstly, we don't know how Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws feel about such things---we see very little of them, thanks to a _certain_ person who is less curious than I'd be in his shoes. Secondly, we really know little of the Slytherins' POV other than via Draco Malfoy...who is someone I do not necessarily view as a bubbling fountain of truth and enlightenment. The gods know that there are enough sub-groups in Gryffindor house, so why should the Slyths be different? > And furthermore, why would it be the Slytherin house that would have > the problem; after all, Slytherin is undeniably the most "pro-dark > side" of the four. If Muggle-raised children were more likely to > become dark, Slytherins would presumably want *more* of them, right? > It depends on what "going over to the Dark Side" really means, doesn't it? Again, if we knew more of the history of the WW, we might have a better idea of what the "typical" dark wizard or would- be Evil Overlord is like---and I could make a good case for some who might have gone on rampages against the "purebloods." Or led goblin rebellions, or even helped out the giants "because they're not evil, just misunderstood." Again, what we lack, my learned friends, is _data_ about times in the WW prior to the rise of Lord Thingy. Even Lord Thingy's first rampage is seen only dimly, as through a glass darkly. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 13:49:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:49:52 -0000 Subject: JKR's dismay at favourite fansite Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100265 Alla wrote: > > > By the way, I do remember JRK saying that Lucius and Draco > > are "lost causes" and Amen to that, but I don't recall her putting > > Snape aside as the lost cause.< > > > > > > Pippin: > > Do you have a source for the quote? I couldn't find it at Quick > > Quotes. > > > > > Alla: > Pippin, I definitely apologise. I did not put "paraphrasing" in my > post. I definitely remember her saying something to that effect, but > I cannot provide a link. > > Potioncat: I can't find a link either, but I remember reading that we should not like Draco and that Draco is not Tom Felton.(That is, fans are attracted to Tom Felton.) As I've understood quotes, Draco and Lucius are bad....for whatever reason, but that Snape may not be. (I read it as Snape was on the right side, but the quote was up for interpretation.) Potioncat (who humbly admits you may not want to trust my interpretations as I was the one who thought Jo had said Snape had twins, although I did think she was kidding.) :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 14:01:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:01:24 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" > > wrote: Amanitamuscaria1 wrote: > > > I have the same problem with Fudge and Snape (sorry, Professor > > Snape) > > > not picking up on Dumbledore's little dig about Harry and > Hermione > > > being in two places at once - even if Fudge is a bit dim, Snape > > > certainly isn't and Time Turners would be just the sort of thing > > he'd > > > have read about, I'd think. Gregory_Lynn answered: > > I have heard someone say--I think it was on this group in fact-- > that > > the line you mention was Dumbledore's way of telling Snape that he > > (DD) was in on it and to shut the heck up. > > >snip I'll just say that by > > intimating that she couldn't be two places at once when he knew > that > > she could be, Dumbledore was indicating that he was aware of the > > scheme. > > AmanitaMuscaria again - you're quite right. The staff must have been > in on the TimeTurner to be available to cover for any little slip- > ups, at the very least. Potioncat: AmanitaMuscaria, I missed it too. I hope this isn't a me too reply, but with so many of us newbies who may not have been around for these discussions the first time, I'll add some canon: After DD says his little bit about being in 2 places at once: "Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to DD, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward." PoA P420 (US paperback) Yep, he understood all right! Which really reinforces the idea that he started the next year out with extra strong ill-will for the trio! And isn't he possibly thinking: "I risked my life to save kids who were acting with DD's blessings?" Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 14:21:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:21:04 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote:> > JKR said that there were a couple things that people are going to > think were put in there on purpose as clues to six and seven. That > would seem to indicate tht they are departures from the book because > otherwise why would anyone think they were put in there at all? > > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book that > seems significant? Potioncat: I read that quote as well, although I don't have the exact wording. The one thing that jumped out at me was the blackbirds/crows/ravens around Hagrid's Hut. I don't recall reading about them, but there was a huge flock of them. Blackbirds are an omen (I don't remember what they mean. And I wondered if ravens would play a part later on in the books. Oh, I just vaguely recalled something about ravens and a tower and a kingdon in British history.. Does anyone have an inkling what I'm babbling about? I was also reminded of 4 and 20 blackbirds baked in a pie. And as this was a pumpkin patch (my favorite pie) I put the two together. Yuck! Potioncat who remembers trying to explain to her children that Peter Rabbit's father was not put in an apple pie.... From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 7 14:41:18 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:41:18 -0000 Subject: Raven in the Tower. was Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100268 > Potioncat: > > The one thing that jumped out at me was the blackbirds/crows/ravens > around Hagrid's Hut. I don't recall reading about them, but there > was a huge flock of them. Blackbirds are an omen (I don't remember > what they mean. And I wondered if ravens would play a part later on > in the books. > > Oh, I just vaguely recalled something about ravens and a tower and a kingdon in British history.. Does anyone have an inkling what I'm > babbling about? Mandy here: There are two ravens that live in the Tower of London. Legend says that if the Ravens leave the Tower, England will fall. The country will be defeated and invaded. Not quite sure how that would fit in Hogwarts though. The Ravens, not being book canon haven't been established enough. Fawlks might hold some kind of parallel symbolism with the Tower Ravens, rather than the raven in PoA/movie. Cheers, Mandy From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 15:09:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:09:57 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100269 Larry wrote: Having just seen the movie POA, I must say I was quite disappointed. The move was just an outline (threadbare at best) of the book. The two remaining books are too complicated to put in a simple 2 hour 20 minute film. An example is LOTR and how Peter Jackson faithfully told the story of the ring (Minus Tom Bombadil and what happened to the SHIRE after the ring was destroyed). As fans of the books, should the movies capture the story of the books or would "poetic license" with the story upset book fans? Neri: I avoided watching the first movie for a whole year for fear of contamination. Then I was visiting a friend who just got the DVD so I couldn't avoid watching it, and besides, curiosity won :-) . To my relief it wasn't a problem at all. I mean, the movie was horrible as expected, but I find it doesn't affect me. I still see most characters and places as I imagined them when first reading the book. JKR's power of description is mightier than W&B's. I saw the second movie also in somebody else's DVD and I thought that as a movie it was much better than the first, but still only average. Maybe I'll see the third movie just out of curiosity. I don't have any problem with movies taking the "poetic license" to shorten, paraphrase and interpret books I love. It is practically unavoidable because the movie media being so different. I thought Jackson did an impressive job with LOTR (but still when I read LOTR I automatically see the characters the way I first imagined them). It is not a question of being accurate about the details, but being true to the spirit of the book. In the case of HP the interpretation was clearly driven too much by $$$ and too little by respect for the spirit of the original work (the respect that Jackson had in tons even as he was changing plot and characters). I particularly don't like the movie kids looking so cute. JKR's kids are NOT cute, which is one of the main reasons I like them. Emma Watson especially is just not "my" Hermione. I mean she is a pretty young lady and a good actress for her age, but she's just too cute to be the annoying, bossy, know-it-all Hermione. Ron's character was murdered by the scriptwriter, who eliminated his sarcastic humor and made him a cute dupe. Rickman is certainly not my Snape, but at least he does a good job of interpretation. Maybe the new director did a better job with POA, but then again POA is perhaps the most complex of the five books, so it would be the most difficult doing justice to it. Neri From kawfhw at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 16:00:45 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:00:45 -0400 Subject: JKR's sense of fun? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100270 I get a weekly news magazine called The Week. In a little snippet, they recapped a recent interview with JKR - she said that, for fun, she joined an online HP group (as an average reader) to through out some of her ideas for the future books - and no one wanted to listen to what she had to say. So she stopped. She said she joined a discussion about SpongeBob SquarePants instead. Interesting! What theories have been been posted in cyberspace that are have been considered "outlandish" and should we rethink that? Faith __________ CRICHTON: Welcome to the Federation Starship SS Buttcrack Farscape, Self Inflicted Wounds - Wait for the Wheel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 7 16:19:42 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:19:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Room of Requirement Message-ID: <20040607161942.91412.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100271 As you know I've been saying that when a person lives a pure life (Lily) and there is a longing (stag) for God, then a "child" is born in the heart, in "God's Hollow Place". This child will fight the evil within us, and take us to liberation from this "fallen" universe, and to entry into the perfect House of our Father. This child grows within us and begins at an early age to triumph over the inner evil, which seeks to destroy this child. This child is the New Soul, which is destined to unite with the Divine Spirit. At a certain point in his development, the maturing soul will begin to take a leading role in our life. He will become the leader of an inner army against evil. The Room of Requirement in Harry Potter teaches us that whatever the new soul needs will always be present immediately. The new soul is God's beloved son, and there is a divine law that ensures that whatever the new soul needs at any time will be given to it instantly. We know that when Harry needed a place to teach his army, the Room of Requirement was there. And it was filled with all the things he needed. When he realised he needed a whistle he spotted it immediately. We can learn from this that when we surrender ourselves to the new soul; when we make Harry our leader, everything needed will be supplied in abundance instantly. When the earthly ego takes the lead, we live in the constant risk of lacking vital necessities, but when the immortal soul is given the lead, it will receive all its requirements, and in addition it will give the earthly personality what it needs as well. This same law is stated in the New Testament as: "Seek first the Kingdom and its righteousness, and all these other things will be given to you". The Harry Potter books can teach us to reach our divine destination! I look forward to your comments. Hans in Holland PS I suddenly realised that word "Olympus" also occurs in HP. There's Olympe Maxime! Another similarity to the Alchemical Wedding. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 16:21:59 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:21:59 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > > The graveyard itself could well be a joint graveyard for Hogsmeade > and Hogwarts. That would mean it would probably be a part of the > outer castle, on the Hogsmeade side (a track leading from village to > graveyard). Hogsmeade itself probably grew up as a typical 'service > village' to the castle - assuming that when Hogswarts was originally > built, the only means of magical travel was broomstick. > > > Pip!Squeak Carolyn: I wonder if any of the secret passages out of Hogwarts are significant here - the four that Filch knows about, not the three that Gred & Forge used. Wouldn't be the first time there was an underground passage to a graveyard, which, of course, might actually be a catacomb. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 16:35:51 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1086610302.6927.12529.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040607163551.9485.qmail@web13522.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100273 Message: 1 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:40:49 -0000 From: "mikefeemster" Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what you think. 1) Harry is not writing his history class essay but is looking at a book on how to do spell motions. 2) Knight bus shrunken head. 3) Tom instead of Fudge meets Harry. 4) Fudge has all of Harry's books. 5) Arthur tells Harry instead of Harry overhearing Molly and Arthur. 6) Mrs. Weasley runs to the train with Scabbers. 7) Choir led by Flitwick. 8) Fat Lady singing (trying to break a glass) before opening the door. 9) Horseplay in the dormitory with some kind of candy that allows the eater to make certain noises. Seamus: monkey, Neville: elephant, Ron: lion, Harry: train(?). 10) In Hagrid's class everybody backs away except Harry, in the book Harry steps forward. 11) Bogart scene: Ron gives spider roller skates, Parvati's bogart is a snake instead of a mummy. Harry actually participates and Lupin steps in. 12) Lupin/Harry bridge scene. Lupin explains Lily and James and says that Harry is more like them than he ever knows. 13) When Snape takes over for Lupin / Malfoy's art. 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. 15) Fat Lady hides behind a hippo(?) in another picture. 16) While they are all sleeping in the great hall, Snape asks Dumbledore if Potter should be warned. 17) Fred and George know of Harry's invisibility cloak. 18) Harry pulls Malfoy into the perimeter of the Shrieking Shack's fence. 19) Harry cries on a rock and is comforted by Hermione. 20) Harry thinks of his mom and dad talking to him to fight the dementor (bogart). 21) Hagrid throws rocks on the lake. 22) Hermione punches Malfoy instead of slepping him. 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed. 24) Whomping Willow attacks Harry and Hermione and then throws them down the hole. 25) Pettigrew runs before being forced to show himself. 26) Harry uses Hermiones wand to disarm Snape. 27) There is a piano in the Shrieking Shack. 28) Sirus and Hermione try to talk to Lupin as he transforms and After he transforms. 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. 30) Soul ball (?) comes out of Sirius's mouth. 31) Hermione throws rock and howls after they go back in time. 32) Buckbeak defends Harry and Hermione from Lupin i werewolf form. 33) Harry's patronus emits a pulsating wave of light that chase off the dementors. 34) Goyle is missing from a few Slytherin scenes. I hope this gives something for all of us to think about until book 6 comes out. Mike I think that there were a lot of differences due to the fact they had to put the book into only a two hour movie. However, I did notice the repeated play of the headless hunt throughout the movie. I was curious in the second movie why they had left out the deathday party and the headless hunt. I was curious as why, then, this was added in the third movie. Could it be foreshadowing something? I really can't come to any conclusions. Maybe they just put it in because it looked cool, or maybe there is more to the headless hunt??? I'll have to ponder this a little longer and write back at a later time. This is the first time I heard of clues in the third movie relating to other books. But, I do have to include that I really liked how Snape protected the children when Lupin turned into a werewolf. I think that gives us a little more insight into his character. As someone else said, Snape may be a good guy, even if he isn't a nice guy. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 17:02:54 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:02:54 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem -> spell endings In-Reply-To: <001301c44c70$52971e20$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100274 > Geoff wrote: > However, there is an element of inconsistency > here. The tendency is for the casting of the spell to use the Latin > vocative case (the "speaking case") which usually ends in an "o". > There are exceptions: "tantallegra" and "serpensortia" come to mind > and then there are stupefy" and "scourgify" aren't Latin. But then, > languages tend to break their own rules because of usage anf the fact > that they are organic, developing entities > > Now SnapesRaven: > You are right (as well as Annemehr), but I'd like to add my thoughts to this. > I dwelled on the forming of curses/incantations/spells and came to the same conclusion - almost. > You pointed out correctly that the vocative case is the one mostly used in a spell. But I think there's an easy explanation as to why for example "serpensortia" and "tarantallegra" (and others) are different. > You say, "Imperio!" when intending to control another person; you say, "Reducto!" when you want to magically drill a hole into something (if I recall correctly), you say, "Alohomora!" when willing a door to open. > Do you see what I mean? - Whenever someone intends to do something *himself* with help of the spell, e.g., control another person, there is the use of the 'o' ending. This correlates with the Latin meaning: imperi-o means 'I order', imperi-mus means 'we order' etc. It depends on the individual share the caster has in the outcome of the spell. (Oh dear, I think I'm not very successful at stating my point clearly, am I?) The -a ending is more of an order itself ("Alohomora!" -> order for the door to open [by itself]), it doesn't serve as an expression of the caster's own action but simply makes something happen. > > I hope this helped... Annemehr: I remembered one more thing about the form of Latin that Jo uses. I was able to find an interview question on Quick Quotes which suggests we needn't take HP Latin too seriously. >From a CBC broadcast of 23 Oct., 2000: Rogers: Your books have brought sort of a renewed interest in Latin. Rowling: [laughs] I went back to my old university very recently, I did French and Classics there. I had to give a speech, which was very nerve-wracking because I'm speaking to very studious and learned people, some of whom used to tell me off for cutting lectures. And I said in my speech 'I'm one of the very few who has ever found a practical application for their classics degree. It just amused me, the idea that wizards would still be using Latin as a living language, although it is, as scholars of Latin will know ... I take great liberties with the language for spells. I see it as a kind of mutation that the wizards are using. So, wizarding Latin is not the Latin the Romans spoke, and niether is it the Latin of the Church or Scholars. Wizards use it, and bastardise it, and have spells in other languages as well (e.g. Avada Kedavra and Stupefy). Latin is a living language for wizards, so it changes, just as English does for us -- e.g. the way "reference" has become a verb. :P Which is why I've decided to allow myself to continue saying "ack-see-oh," because I like it that way. ;-) Annemehr Accio Firebolt! ~and I bet in GoF-The Movie they just have Harry *carry* his broom to the first task... From jjpandy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 17:07:43 2004 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:07:43 -0000 Subject: Why booklovers should appreciate the POA movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100275 Is it a shock that Harry Potter fans are torn over the POA movie? N0! I am OK that some things were dropped or changed, and ,yes, I am disappointed in some things that were missing (Lupin revealing that he is Moony, Snape's temper tantrum over Sirius' escape). But, all in all, I enjoyed the movie and the lively conversation over lunch with my friend that followed. What I love and appreciate most about the POA movie (and why you should too)is that it brings a shot of adrenaline to the message boards. I am rereading POA and re-analyzing what I thought I had already analyzed because watching the movie got the brain juices flowing again! Enjoy the rush! JJPandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:12:33 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20040607163551.9485.qmail@web13522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100276 snipping body of post. Mike Feemster wrote a list of differences: > > 7) Choir led by Flitwick. Potioncat I didn't read the credits, (was too busy watching footprints) Was he listed as Flitwick? In the IMDB he was listed as "a wizard" So I was wondering why, if they had Warwick Davies, they didn't have Flitwick. > Mike: 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as > a werewolf. Potioncat: I liked the "idea" of this as sort of confirming that Snape was there to protect the trio and this seemed the easiest way of doing it. Particularly sense we don't have him conjuring stretchers. Although I'm not sure it really worked. > 34) Goyle is missing from a few Slytherin scenes. Potioncat: I was wondering if "Slytherin boy" was Theo? I also noticed Goyle's absence. > Mo: wrote >snip > But, I do have to include that I really liked how > Snape protected the children when Lupin turned into a > werewolf. I think that gives us a little more insight > into his character. As someone else said, Snape may > be a good guy, even if he isn't a nice guy. > Potioncat: Yes, again I liked it in theory. What I did like was he came out from the willow bellowing "There you are Potter!" and immediately began protecting them. However, I think had canon Snape been protecting them he would have had a spell to at least attempt on the werewolf. Potioncat From teshara at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 18:26:38 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:26:38 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > snipping body of post. > Mike Feemster wrote a list of differences: > > > > 34) Goyle is missing from a few Slytherin scenes. > Potioncat: I was wondering if "Slytherin boy" was Theo? I also > noticed Goyle's absence. I assumed it was Theo. Maybe they wanted to integrate the importance of the character into the story earlier. I remember the mention of a thin Slytherin boy bafore we knew about Nott in the 5th Book. Personally, I was shocked at how old Goyle looked in the movie. (Not to mention at his first appearence I heard more than one girl go: 'woah' in the theatre.) How many times was an unidentified Slytherin boy mentioned in the books? ~ Chelle From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 18:50:23 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:50:23 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what > you think. > > Mike Max replies: Lets not forget that JKR could have been speaking about a visual image from the film as well. The one that immediately comes to mind for me is the recurring motif of Harry in the clock tower. My thought is that it doesn't so much have to do with 'the clock tower' in particular, but simply the juxtaposing of Harry with the metaphor of time. These days, I'm becoming more and more convinced that some sort of time travel or manipulation of time will play a big part in the final plot twists. Max From SnapesRaven at web.de Mon Jun 7 19:17:30 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:17:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem -> spell endings References: Message-ID: <001b01c44cc4$147c54d0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 100279 Annemehr wrote: Accio Firebolt! ~and I bet in GoF-The Movie they just have Harry *carry* his broom to the first task... Now SnapesRaven: Yes, that'd be just the thing for them to do, wouldn't it? (Or maybe they change the plot even more so that Dobby! carries the broom...?) SnapesRaven *who indeed liked the 3rd film but is still very sceptical about all the heavy missings* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 19:00:27 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: <1086610302.6927.12529.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040607190027.48573.qmail@web13525.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100280 Message: 4 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:12:25 -0000 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection imamommy: Something just hit me upside the head (owww!) In the PoA movie, in the scene when Harry is wearing the IC and throwing snowballs and taunting Malfoy and his cronies, he pulls down one of the boys pants to reveal a lurid set of boxers. (Sorry, I don't remember which kid, and I still am not sure which is which.) Now, it doesn't happen in the book this way, so the canonical reference is shaky, but it seems an interesting connection between Harry and James' behavior in "Snape's Worst Memory". Why does Harry torment Crabbe and Goyle? merely because they exist? Remember, according to Sirius, Snape was sort of Lucius' stooge. (Granted he has more brains than C&G put together). I think it's an interesting similarity, anyway. Comments? imamommy I don't think there is a connection. A. Partially, I think it is the movie that plays that scene up a bit. And B. In Snape's memory, it is James and Sirius that instigate the taunting, yet it is Malfoy who instigates it in PoA and Harry gets back at him. Crabbe and Goyle also join in on the taunting on a regular basis, and HP was giving them the same appreciation back under the IC. Also, a huge difference is Malfoy regularily taunts HP, where, for the most part, Harry tries to avoid him. So, no, I don't think the movie was trying to make a comparison. I just think the pulling pants down was added for slapstick humor and nothing else. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 19:01:03 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:01:03 -0000 Subject: PINE news about Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100281 >potioncat wrote: > Greetings, I have a quote from Chris Rankin from a BBC interview > which I read on HPANA. (He also talks about what wasn't in the movie > that should have been. We should invite him to join our little > group! ;-) > > > Q: > You were chatting to JK Rowling at the premier party - any hints > towards book six yet? > CR: > Yes and no. I got a bit of information out of her. I said 'I want a > word with you Miss Rowling, I've been getting hate mail about Percy > Weasley.' > > She did hint he might just redeem himself in the future, we'll have > to wait and see. Neri: But OF COURSE he will redeem himself. Did anybody ever doubt it? Only those who think he's a secret agent working for DD anyway. The question is, would redeeming himself will cost him his life? And the life of how many other Weasleys? Now that is a question. From jennifer_maccherone at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 11:44:15 2004 From: jennifer_maccherone at yahoo.com (jennifer_maccherone) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:44:15 -0000 Subject: theory about teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100282 I just had a thought about who might stay behind as a teacher. It all started with GG, HH, SS, and RR. We now have Severus Snape (SS), Minerva McGonagall (MM), Filius Flitwick (FF). Those DADA teachers don't last because they simply don't have the right initials! So, maybe someday we'll have Luna Lovegood (LL), Parvati Patil (PP), Pansy Parkinson (PP), and Colin Creevey (CC)? I would bet on Luna, because it's not who you would expect. I'm really enjoying the group, Jennifer From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 12:58:30 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 05:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What happened at the Longbottoms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040607125830.47505.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100283 meriaugust wrote: But there seemed to be some doubts in GoF, especially regarding Barty Crouch's involvement. If they weren't found at the house, and Frank and Alice were too incapacitated then how were the Death Eaters ever caught? I have thought about this also. I have also wondered about Crouch!Moody being so nice to Neville at the beginning of GoF. And then there is Crouch!Moody's comment that "They will not be able to control you" (or something to that effect - I do not have my book in front of me). My conclusion was that Crouch was forced in one way or another to be a DE or was forced to stay in if he joined on his own. He either had nothing to do with either the Longbottons and Potters and was framed or was forced to join in but in either case he now feels guilty about it. No real canon to support this but just a gut feeling. Moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 13:47:49 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 06:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040607134749.52902.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100284 paul_terzis wrote: <<>> I think someone will die either because they are physically close or emotionally close to HP. I cannot help but wonder if a member of DA will be the one? <<<2) Harry will be tempted to the dark arts. He will be full of rage and hatred and he will try to acquire powers and skills from every source possible in order to face LV.>>> I can see him doing this on the sly because he feels that no one would understand. People will find out and think that he has crossed over, himself. <<<3) True feelings and desires will be revealed in the face of the nightmarish reality. I don't know the pairings, although I wish a Harry/Hermione eternal love (please I express a wish, there is no reason for dispute with the Ron/Hermione shippers).>>> I would not be surprised if Harry is caught in a situation where he and a female (Hr/G/L) are in a life and death situation and he realizes how much loosing her would hurt. Maybe this is the person for #1 (above)? <<<4) Maybe we will witness Harry killing an enemy(DE or who knows)or even more as a result of overwhelming feelings(hatred or love). >>> See #3 above or possibly BL or LM?? <<>> You express yourself beautifully!! Much better than I do and I have been butchering the English language since I was born!! Moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 15:37:21 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:37:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny the Pinocchio effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100285 >>>>> I was looking at the site http://weasleylove.homestead.com/Evidence.html to learn more about the Harry-Ginny love for the future, and it actually turned me down to my hopes that they would get together in the future. What are your comments? -------------------------------------------------------------------- I read the essay forementioned online.. and I must say, I COMPLETELY agree with it (you guys should all take a look at it)! I really really believe and hope that Harry and Ginny end up together, heehee. I like the arguments and evidence presented in the essay.. just a tiny little thing: I wish that someone had mentioned how Harry kept being "impressed" by Ginny in the Order of Phoenix. 1. He was impressed with Ginny after the first Quidditch practice (after his Quidditch ban).. Speakin' of impressive Ginny, George was "mildly impressed" when he learned that Ginny had been using her brothers' brooms to practice Quidditch since 6.. and the Weasley twins were impressed with her Bat-Bogey hex.. and the twins are.. well.. being the "Troublemakers-in-Chief".. hard to be amused/ impressed.. hehe 2. At the first DA meeting, Harry noticed that Ginny was "very good" at Disarming.. That's all I have for the impressive stuff, although I am certain there are more if we look closer.. Also, I believe there are a couple of other reasons for Harry-Ginny possibility.. (1) I absolutely do NOT believe that Ginny had given up on Harry. I know from personal experience (and many of my gal pals' experience) that a strong yet not-achieved crush does not simply go away, especially if you are around the guy often. Surely, Ginny does not worship Harry the same way anymore, but I guarantee you, she still holds very deep feelings for HArry. Perhaps she had realized that making goo-goo eyes at him and turning into a flaming-statue everytime she sees him is probably not the best way to win his heart. However, by dating many guys --Neville, Michael, Dean-- she is proving herself to be a very sought-out, eligible Bachelorette.. If Harry keeps hearing about Ginny's long list of boyfriends, *maybe* Harry will wonder what guys see in her and what he had missed out? I'm not saying Ginny is playing these guys to make Harry jealous -- she is just experimenting (a LOT of desirable/ lovable girls do that in early age, heehee). However, I do not for a second believe that Ginny actually "loved" any of her ex'es as much as she does Harry, and if Harry does ask her out in the 6th book I think her heart will burst even more red than her hair! (2) This is just a feeling I got.. >>> Harry, whose head had been full of Cho's parting wave, did not find this subject as interesting as Ron, who was positively quivering with indignation, but it did bring something home to him that until now he had not really registered. "So that's why she talks now?" he asked Hermione."She never used to talk in front of me." (Order of Phoenix, 349. US) Is it just me.. or wishful thinking.. but does Harry sound somewhat disappointed to you? Haha, I HOPE he was disappointed.. hehee And I keep hearing people talking about the possibility of HArry- Luna.. I personally think that's CRAZY.. haha.. Ginny will conquer.. lol Something else I have noticed: J.K. Rowling has been very cautious and (somewhat) political about wizard beauties and talented personelles.. - Pavarti/ Padma Patil (" 'I still can't work out how you two got the best-looking girls in the year,' muttered Dean. 'Animal magnetism,' said Ron... " Goblet of Fire, 358. UK) -- they are BROWN (perhaps Indian?) - Cho Chang (as we all know, very pretty, popular and athletic) -- KOREAN (judging by her name, I highly doubt that she is Chinese.. although to be honest, no one I've ever known/heard of is named Cho; both Cho & Chang are very common Korean last names.. I thought her name was very odd, but my Canadian friend thought it was cute) - Fleur Delacour (part Veela, tall & lean, gorgeous Silver hair, the wizarding "Blonde Bombshell"-equivalent) -- non other than FRENCH, hahahha. Even Madame Maxime is said to have "a handsome, olive- skinned face" and dressed elegantly in "black satin, and many magnificent opals" (Goblet of Fire, 214. UK) - Angelina Johnson (Lee Jordan mentions how attractive she is at every single Gryffindor Quidditch game, also very atheltic) -- BLACK - Bellatrix Lestrange (Black family seemed to possess the lucky gene for great-looks and eloquent black hair) -- she is BRITISH, married French, but of course, she had to be EVIL, hahahahha. And there is her sister, Narcissa Malfoy, who seem to share many of the same qualities with Bella. - Lucius/ Draco Malfoy -- tall, lean, sleak Blonde hair, well- dressed.. sounds to me like a typical British Aristocrat, and of course, deadly evil. Maybe it was just movie's portrayal? Viktor Krum (internationally-renowned Seeker, a young rising-star) -- is.. Bulgarian - Hassan Mostafa ("acclaimed Chairwizard of the International Association of Quidditch". Goblet of Fire, 96. UK) -- Egyptian - Igor Karkaroff (a Death Eater who BETRAYED many of his fellow DEs) - - East European, although I cannot tell Russian? Serbian? I just thought it was interesting.. Wow, this is much longer than I'd anticipated. But I hope you enjoyed my little rant!! Oh, also on Hermione-Ron coupling, you can also mention how Ron went absolutely nuts/ jealous/ obssessed over Viktor-Hermione starting in Goblet of Fire... ever since he found out that she was going to the Yule Ball with someone else. And of course, she snapped at him, "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" (GoF, 376. UK) -- she obviously wanted to go with Ron, haha. Oh, and how Hermione gave unpleasant looks to Fleur Delacour everytime Ron started going goo-goo on Fleur? Hehehe. Brenda (who really should get back to her Physiology test tomorrow) From president0084 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 15:48:01 2004 From: president0084 at yahoo.com (James) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:48:01 -0000 Subject: Raven in the Tower. was Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100286 Potioncat wrote: > > The one thing that jumped out at me was the blackbirds/crows/ravens around Hagrid's Hut. I don't recall reading about them, but there was a huge flock of them. Blackbirds are an omen (I don't remember what they mean. And I wondered if ravens would play a part later on in the books. >> Ravens have always been closely related with death, and magpies with bad luck. In Shakespeare's Macbeth, the raven was perched over Macbeths' castle, it was a foreshadowing Duncan's murder by Macbeth and Lady Macbeth which lead to the eventually collapse of the Scottish kingdom. James From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 19:14:54 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:14:54 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100287 > mikefeemster wrote: > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. Neri: Can someone please post the exact quote of JKR, what exactly did she say about things in the movie foreshadowing the books? Or direct me to the post that already quoted her? I have a suspicion that this whole thing of looking for clues in the movie is another case of misquoting JKR, or quoting her out of context. Neri From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 7 17:23:59 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:23:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rereading POA - Dementors' Kiss In-Reply-To: <008f01c44c4a$dea71800$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100288 Hi, :-) I'm just taking the whole passage about the kiss as Snape had told Fudge that he saw the dementors going back to their positions, possibly interpreting that a kiss is what they tried to do. Remember, we didn't hear the entire explanation; Harry was just waking up when he heard voices. So, what had those voices said just prior to his awakening? Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jun 7 19:17:54 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:17:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry/Ginny the Pinocchio effect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C4BF62.9060807@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100289 Brenda wrote: > > - Cho Chang (as we all know, very pretty, popular and athletic) -- > KOREAN (judging by her name, I highly doubt that she is Chinese.. > although to be honest, no one I've ever known/heard of is named Cho; > both Cho & Chang are very common Korean last names.. I thought her > name was very odd, but my Canadian friend thought it was cute) My friend is Chinese-American and her last name is Chang. Chang means yellow in Chinese. Jemima From allison_m_otto at lycos.com Mon Jun 7 17:25:39 2004 From: allison_m_otto at lycos.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:25:39 -0000 Subject: The Twin's Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100290 > > AmanitaMuscaria again - you're quite right. The staff must have > been in on the TimeTurner to be available to cover for any little slip- > > ups, at the very least. > > Potioncat: > AmanitaMuscaria, I missed it too. I hope this isn't a me too reply, > but with so many of us newbies who may not have been around for > these discussions the first time, I'll add some canon: > After DD says his little bit about being in 2 places at once: > "Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked > thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to DD, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward." PoA P420 (US paperback) Allison responds:- I always thought that no one knew about the TT except Dumbledore, McGonagall, and whoever at the Ministry gave permission (and Hermione, of course). For one thing, I don't get the impression that the Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, Divination (especially Divination), etc. professors talk to each other enough to work out that Hermione shouldn't have been in all their classes. Plus, if it's a Big Secret that she has it, I can't see them telling the whole faculty. Hermione does say (forgive me, I don't have the book here at work) that McGonagall was trusting her with a major responsibility - surely if she could be trusted not to mess with time, she could also be trusted - especially seeing as it's Hermione - not to go back and retake her exams or something (plus, wouldn't there be two of her there if she tried that?). Anyway, I interpret Snape's reaction (in the scene quoted below by Potioncat) as anger that DD seems to be ignoring/belittling Snape's firm sense that Harry has done something wrong. Snape is sure Harry did something to let Sirius get away, he loves for Harry to get in trouble, and here's Harry getting away with it again just because DD seems to believe Harry and Hermione haven't left the hospital wing. Just my opinion, of course. -Allison From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 7 17:42:15 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:42:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100291 | From: ohneill_2001 | Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 0:50 AM [Eric writes]: | > If there ever comes a time when Wizard and Muggle values clash---can | > Hermione be trusted, even if the wizards are in the right? She's | > gone on with her house-elves'-rights campaign in the face of repeated | > evidence that the house elves, themselves, do not _want_ to be free. | > I'd think seeing how crushed Winky was would have gotten through to | > her, but our Hermione is not one to let a little thing like evidence | > get in the way. *snip* | [ohneill_2001 responds]: | But why do you see that as a Muggle trait? Do you think there aren't | others in the Wizarding world who can be just as stubborn when they | believe they are right about something? [Lee, chuckling]: Can we say "Hagrid?" He's so intent upon saving Grawp that he'll do just about anything. He's ticked off the Centaurs, he's enlisted Harry and Hermione's help, etc. No: HPFGUIDX 100292 Okay, I've read the rules and previous theories and searched the archives and I haven't seen this one yet. I hope I'm doing this correctly and won't be sent to detention - especially with Umbridge! Has anyone thought that Harry may be the final DADA instructor after graduation from Hogwarts? He's already shown he can teach in OotP. I know he told McGonagall he'd like to be an auror, and he's discussed it with Ron and Hermione, but maybe after all is said and done Dumbledore will ask him to stay on to teach. I also haven't seen answers to a few things I'm thinking of. In POA when Aunt Marge is visiting she insults Harry's mother with the female dog reference. Petunia is sitting right there. Does she not care that this woman is insulting her sister? We know from OotP why the Dursley's agreed to take Harry in even though they hate everything having to do with the wizarding world, but I would think Petunia would hate having her sister described that way. Did Aunt Marge forget that Petunia was Harry's mother's sister? Couldn't she say Petunia was the same? In OotP why didn't Harry go to McGonagall after detention with Umbridge and show her what she had done to his hand? Does Fudge realize she is punishing students this way? I know the ministry wanted more control but that woman is just plain mean. I hated even reading that part and I felt for sure that McGonagall would do something but either she didn't know or couldn't do anything. That's all for now. I'll read some more now. Christina in GA (USA) From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 7 18:05:03 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:05:03 -0400 Subject: House Ghosts Question ( was Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100293 | From: justcarol67 | Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:29 AM | | Carol: | I've always wondered why NHN and the Bloody Baaron | and for that matter, the Fat Friar, chose to be Hogwarts ghosts. | Surely they had their own castles or cloisters or whatever to haunt? | Surely they didn't die (like Professor Binns) in Hogwarts itself or on | the Hogwarts grounds. But if they're buried in a cemetery on the | grounds, their presence at Hogwarts at least makes some degree of sense. [Lee]: Which leads me to something else...and I haven't been able to find an answer. Who/what is the Ravenclaw ghost? I really don't recall in the four or so times I've read through the books a ref to Ravenclaw's ghost. Please, don't let it be Moaning Myrtle... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From crobocker at aol.com Mon Jun 7 19:18:08 2004 From: crobocker at aol.com (c_robocker) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:18:08 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100294 > > Pip!Squeak: > CRobo snips first through fifthly < > Sixthly ... but you get the point. There are a large number of > possible plot points that a graveyard could be used for, and some > perfectly good reasons that an author might keep the information > that there *is* a graveyard from Harry. > > snip > > Pip!Squeak CRobo: ooooo. Maybe there's a headstone marked - dare I say it? - marked 'Harry J Potter'. (insert Twilight Zone music and an image of a time-turner.) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 7 20:03:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:03:10 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: <001e01c44c0a$190ec9c0$aa560043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote:). Seeing us unable to do things they can do without effort, and not having had the benefit of our sort of education, they naturally feel superior and rather contemptuou> of us---even Arthur Weasley, who is about as pro-Muggle as a lifelong resident of the WW can be, tends to think of us as rather inferior.<< Seeing those who don't share our background, beliefs, values, abilities, etc. as inferior, and being slightly contemptuous of them is a *human* trait, not a Slytherin one. In fact, I think we can expand that, in Rowling's world, to a Being trait. It becomes chauvinism when a group begins to think their superiority gives them rights that others don't, or shouldn't, have. That is what Slytherin came to believe. But did all his students agree with him? The important thing about Slytherin's departure is that he didn't take his House with him. In contrast to Slytherin himself, those he hand-picked weren't unwilling to be educated with the Muggle-born and the halfblooded. Even in those days, there were Slytherins who weren't as radical as Slytherin became. There would have been no need to build the Chamber and conceal the basilisk within it if Salazar had been able to get all the Slytherins of his day on his side. I think sometimes the fans are guilty of being more House-ist than the Hat. The Hat's job, it tells us in OOP, is to quarter the students. That means divide them into four *equal* parts. Since the purebloods are dying out, there are probably a minority, even in Slytherin, whose blood is pure by Malfoy standards. Especially since some of those who would qualify are sorted into other Houses. Slytherin was always flexible about rules--I have this sneaking suspicion that Myrtle, cunning and devious, was a Slytherin despite her Muggle birth. Wouldn't Draco be shocked! Pippin From bamf505 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040607171257.87006.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100296 Geoff wrote: > > spell wording are mentioned. Amos Diggory uses > "Prior Incantato" > > which sounds suspiciously like a genitive whereas > "Priori > > Incantatem" - which is not actually heard being > used in this book - I took it as a language thing, to be honest. A lot of her spells sound like they are from Latin, and so when it's being preformed and being talked about, the verb would change. Like talking to your friend and then talking ABOUT her, the pronouns change from 'you' to 'her/him' or the difference between 'I am' and 'You are'. My foriegn language skills are rusty, but I took it as -tato to be like the "I" verbs in Spanish (ex: hablo - I talk) or the "I'm doing this". When it's being talked about later, the verb usage would naturally change, as the person is not actually preforming the spell. It would change from an 'I did this' to a 'They did that' situation. From (again, Spanish) -o to (in the case of hablar - to talk) an -an or an -amos situation. I know Latin is different in the suffix change (what letters are used), but the structure is similiar. So if the spell is Priori Incantant- "I Do" = Priori Incantanto "They (Form.) Do" = Priori Incantantem Just a guess, but: "You (Form.) Do" = Priori Incantante "You (Imfor.) Do" = Priori Incantantes "They (Inform.) Do" = Priori Incantantemos The other explination would be a shift from 'I do this' to 'They DID this' - from present to past tense, but I'm not sure how that works with Latin (and I hated that section in Spanish, so I can't really tell you the verb conversions for that.) I've only briefly studied Latin, and my Spanish was well over 15 years ago, but that was my basic take on the different suffices for the spell work... Opinions? ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From floopy at shaw.ca Mon Jun 7 18:46:55 2004 From: floopy at shaw.ca (M) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:46:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C4B81F.90104@shaw.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 100297 Thank you for the extensive list, Mike! I'm going to leave some space here for spoilers. P O A S P O I L E R S Mike wrote: > 5) Arthur tells Harry instead of Harry overhearing Molly and Arthur. M writes: That scene really struck me. Arthur keeps referring to Sirius as 'Black' and insisting that Black wants to go after Harry for what Harry did to Voldemort. Since he never specifically said Sirius (it was implied), that conversation could be taken to mean another Black - Bellatrix, perhaps? Meaning that Bellatrix will have a greater role in the next two books, possibly even opeining up a greater role for Neville, or somehow drawing Neville into the prophecy with Harry since now they share even more things together. After all, they both lost parents (or in Harry's case, a parental figure) to Bellatrix. Mike wrote: > 10) In Hagrid's class everybody backs away except Harry, in the book > Harry steps forward. M writes: Though i'm inclined to think that was more for comedy than anything, it's a pretty interesting deviation from the book if one wants to read deeper into it. It could foreshadow the loss of support from the Gryffindors, or even the offering up of Gryffindors of Harry in order to save themselves. It could also highlight the relationship Harry seems to have with his housemates and with Hogwarts students in general. He is always struggling with acceptance in Hogwarts. The general school population, with the exception of a few, seem to have a fickle relationship with Harry - they hate him, they love him, they hate him, they could care less. They offer Harry up to Buckbeak (Ron, in particular, shoves Harry forward) and cheer when he returns successfully. Or it could also just demonstrate how they use Harry for protection. Or I could be reading too much into that scene. Mike wrote: > 11) Bogart scene: Ron gives spider roller skates, Parvati's bogart > is a snake instead of a mummy. Harry actually participates and > Lupin steps in. M writes: Parvati's bogart interested me. I didn't really see a reason to change Parvati's bogart, so although I can't explain why, I think that doing so is significant. Maybe it will open up a clue in CoS, or maybe Harry being a Parselmouth will affect her relationship with him, whether positively or negatively. Mike wrote: > 26) Harry uses Hermiones wand to disarm Snape. M writes: This was probably just a dramatic change, but again, if one really wanted to read into it (and this is a stretch), maybe it could point to a possible solution around the issue of Harry and Voldemort's wand sharing the same core - use another wand. Mike wrote: > 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. M writes: Though not really foreshadowing, I think it just illuminates Snape's character :) For me, it strongly reinforces the idea that Snape is trying to protect them via 'tough love'. Or maybe it just gave Alan Rickman something to do. M. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 7 20:17:31 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:17:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100298 | From: gift_lady | Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 13:50 PM | In OotP why didn't Harry go to McGonagall after detention with | Umbridge and show her what she had done to his hand? Does Fudge | realize she is punishing students this way? I know the ministry | wanted more control but that woman is just plain mean. I hated even | reading that part and I felt for sure that McGonagall would do | something but either she didn't know or couldn't do anything. [Lee]: Two things: 1. I don't think MM could have done anything about Umbridge's quill. She had to detach herself as much as possible in order to remain at Hogwarts, IMHO. Add to that, if she had done something, or tried to, Umbridge would have come up with another decree or found some way to remove Minerva from the scene. 2. Umbridge would stop at nothing! She was even willing to do a Cruciatus curse...uh--hello...that's one of the unforgivable curses, thank you very much, and she was more than a little excited about possibly using it on a student to gain information! Again, IMHO, One has to wonder about Umbridge; is she just that power-hungry? Or has/does she have ties to Death Eaters? Whichever way you look at it, what could McGonagall really have done? Not a whole lot. From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 20:28:17 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:28:17 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of Differences (spoile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > mikefeemster wrote: > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two > things > > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a > list > > of things that I noticed were different from the book. > > Neri: > Can someone please post the exact quote of JKR, what exactly did she > say about things in the movie foreshadowing the books? Or direct me > to the post that already quoted her? I have a suspicion that this > whole thing of looking for clues in the movie is another case of > misquoting JKR, or quoting her out of context. > > Neri Max replies: Here's the link to the USA Today article - http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm HPANA also has a link to a video version of the interview. You can check that out here - http://www.hpana.com/news.18158.html Here's a short excerpt: "Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling says that Alfonso Cuaron, who directed The Prisoner of Azkaban, which opens next Friday, inadvertently foreshadowed events that will happen in books six and seven, which she has yet to complete. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling says in an interview released by Warner Bros., which is distributing the movie." I don't think there is any mistaking the meaning of this quote. Max :) From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 20:40:29 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:40:29 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20040607163551.9485.qmail@web13522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:40:49 -0000 > From: "mikefeemster" > Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically > the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided > to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. > I don't > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let > me know what > you think. > > 1) Harry is not writing his history class essay but is > looking at a > book on how to do spell motions. > > 2) Knight bus shrunken head. > > 3) Tom instead of Fudge meets Harry. > > 4) Fudge has all of Harry's books. > > 5) Arthur tells Harry instead of Harry overhearing > Molly and Arthur. > > 6) Mrs. Weasley runs to the train with Scabbers. > > 7) Choir led by Flitwick. > > 8) Fat Lady singing (trying to break a glass) before > opening the > door. > > 9) Horseplay in the dormitory with some kind of candy > that allows > the eater to make certain noises. Seamus: monkey, > Neville: > elephant, Ron: lion, Harry: train(?). > > 10) In Hagrid's class everybody backs away except > Harry, in the book > Harry steps forward. > > 11) Bogart scene: Ron gives spider roller skates, > Parvati's bogart > is a snake instead of a mummy. Harry actually > participates and > Lupin steps in. > > 12) Lupin/Harry bridge scene. Lupin explains Lily and > James and > says that Harry is more like them than he ever knows. > > 13) When Snape takes over for Lupin / Malfoy's art. > > 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. > > 15) Fat Lady hides behind a hippo(?) in another > picture. > > 16) While they are all sleeping in the great hall, > Snape asks > Dumbledore if Potter should be warned. > > 17) Fred and George know of Harry's invisibility > cloak. > > 18) Harry pulls Malfoy into the perimeter of the > Shrieking Shack's > fence. > > 19) Harry cries on a rock and is comforted by > Hermione. > > 20) Harry thinks of his mom and dad talking to him to > fight the > dementor (bogart). > > 21) Hagrid throws rocks on the lake. > > 22) Hermione punches Malfoy instead of slepping him. > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that > Buckbeak is executed. > > 24) Whomping Willow attacks Harry and Hermione and > then throws them > down the hole. > > 25) Pettigrew runs before being forced to show > himself. > > 26) Harry uses Hermiones wand to disarm Snape. > > 27) There is a piano in the Shrieking Shack. > > 28) Sirus and Hermione try to talk to Lupin as he > transforms and > After he transforms. > > 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as > a werewolf. > > 30) Soul ball (?) comes out of Sirius's mouth. > > 31) Hermione throws rock and howls after they go back > in time. > > 32) Buckbeak defends Harry and Hermione from Lupin i > werewolf form. > > 33) Harry's patronus emits a pulsating wave of light > that chase off > the dementors. > > 34) Goyle is missing from a few Slytherin scenes. > > > I hope this gives something for all of us to think > about until > book 6 comes out. > > Mike > > > I think that there were a lot of differences due to > the fact they had to put the book into only a two hour > movie. However, I did notice the repeated play of the > headless hunt throughout the movie. I was curious in > the second movie why they had left out the deathday > party and the headless hunt. I was curious as why, > then, this was added in the third movie. Could it be > foreshadowing something? I really can't come to any > conclusions. Maybe they just put it in because it > looked cool, or maybe there is more to the headless > hunt??? > I'll have to ponder this a little longer and write > back at a later time. This is the first time I heard > of clues in the third movie relating to other books. > But, I do have to include that I really liked how > Snape protected the children when Lupin turned into a > werewolf. I think that gives us a little more insight > into his character. As someone else said, Snape may > be a good guy, even if he isn't a nice guy. > > ~Mo > > Steph here: I feel like everyone is forgetting how many times Harry is told he has his mother's eyes in the movie..it is a clue we are a familiar with, but it's forshadowing none the less. I think that whole scene with Lupin and Harry is really important. Lupin mentions how Lily sees the beauty and greatness in people, even when they don't see it themselves. I thought that was especially important considering that it was never mentioned in the books. We have never been let in on Lily's relationship with James's friends. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From bamf505 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 19:31:54 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: <20040607190027.48573.qmail@web13525.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040607193154.15674.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100301 imamommy wrote: > taunting Malfoy and his cronies, he pulls down one > of > the boys pants > to reveal a lurid set of boxers. (Sorry, I don't > remember which kid, > and I still am not sure which is which.) Now, it > doesn't happen in > the book this way, so the canonical reference is > shaky, but it seems > an interesting connection between Harry and James' > behavior in > "Snape's Worst Memory". Why does Harry torment > Crabbe > and Goyle? > merely because they exist? Remember, according to > Sirius, Snape was > sort of Lucius' stooge. Mo wrote: > I don't think there is a connection. > A. Partially, I think it is the movie that plays > that > scene up a bit. And > B. In Snape's memory, it is James and Sirius that > instigate the taunting, yet it is Malfoy who > instigates it in PoA and Harry gets back at him. > Crabbe and Goyle also join in on the taunting on a Also - in the movie, the three boys are taunting Ron and Hermoine, but are also getting ready to get into a physical fight (from what it looked like to me). It came across not as Harry antagonizing, but as Harry protecting. In the book, the Maraudeers start out by taunting, and then get carried away. I haven't reread that part in the book yet, so my mind's still a little fuzzy about it, but IIRC - the Maraudeers start taunting SS, it escalates, Lily steps in, SS throws it back in her face, and then we see SS's knickers... But in the movie, Malfoy starts it, and then it threatens to get violent. my two pennies.. bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 7 19:38:43 2004 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:38:43 -0500 Subject: Crookshanks Message-ID: <010201c44cc7$0b0b4f70$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 100302 Anyone else feel that Crookshanks was robbed in the POA movie? I always thoroughly enjoy the Crookshanks portions of the book, and while I realize portions had to be cut, I was hoping that at least that orange paw would show up on the whomping willow : ( I also get the feeling that Crookshanks might come into similar play later on in the series. Danie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 20:52:07 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:52:07 -0000 Subject: Why booklovers should appreciate the POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjpandy" wrote: > Is it a shock that Harry Potter fans are torn over the POA movie? > N0! > I am OK that some things were dropped or changed, and ,yes, I am > disappointed in some things that were missing (Lupin revealing that > he is Moony, Snape's temper tantrum over Sirius' escape). But, all in > all, I enjoyed the movie and the lively conversation over lunch with > my friend that followed. > What I love and appreciate most about the POA movie (and why you > should too)is that it brings a shot of adrenaline to the message > boards. I am rereading POA and re-analyzing what I thought I had > already analyzed because watching the movie got the brain juices > flowing again! > > Enjoy the rush! > JJPandy Stephanie here: Here! Here! I 100% agree with you. I'm always overcritical of the movies when I see them for the 1st time (where was Fudge's Lime Green Bowler Hat?!) but after seeing it a second time, I was able to appreciate the beauty of the movie. The director states in many articles (this weeks Entertainment Weekly is a good example)that he wanted to focus on one major story line and drop the incidentals (basically all those wonderful lines we are all missing). The article also mentions the lack of explination of the Marauders...that it will work better in future movies (what does that mean?!) All in all, after watching it with a critical eye, go back and see the movie...as just a movie, to appreicate how artistically beautiful it really is. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 20:53:38 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:53:38 -0000 Subject: theory about teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100304 jennifer wrote: > I just had a thought about who might stay behind as a teacher. > > It all started with GG, HH, SS, and RR. We now have Severus Snape > (SS), Minerva McGonagall (MM), Filius Flitwick (FF). Those DADA > teachers don't last because they simply don't have the right > initials! > > So, maybe someday we'll have Luna Lovegood (LL), Parvati Patil (PP), > Pansy Parkinson (PP), and Colin Creevey (CC)? I would bet on Luna, > because it's not who you would expect. Neri: Your theory has more support in canon than most theories I saw in the last months ;-) But you forgot Cho Chang (CC). I wonder what she will be teaching. And also, Peter Pettigrew (PP) now looks like a good candidate for replacing MM in the transfiguration job. There is only the small matter of clearing his name. I'm sure he is actually Dumbledore's agent :-D Neri From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 20:54:30 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:54:30 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: <010201c44cc7$0b0b4f70$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danielle Arnt" wrote: > Anyone else feel that Crookshanks was robbed in the POA movie? I always thoroughly enjoy the Crookshanks portions of the book, and while I realize portions had to be cut, I was hoping that at least that orange paw would show up on the whomping willow : ( I also get the feeling that Crookshanks might come into similar play later on in the series. > > Danie > > Steph here: Indeed! I was really bummed about the lack of crookshanks in the movie. What good is a whomping willow if you can use your wand to stop it. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 22:01:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:01:50 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: Neri: > I avoided watching the first movie for a whole year for fear of > contamination. Then I was visiting a friend who just got the DVD so I > couldn't avoid watching it, and besides, curiosity won :-) . To my > relief it wasn't a problem at all. I mean, the movie was horrible as > expected, but I find it doesn't affect me. I still see most > characters and places as I imagined them when first reading the book. > JKR's power of description is mightier than W&B's. I saw the second > movie also in somebody else's DVD and I thought that as a movie it > was much better than the first, but still only average. Maybe I'll > see the third movie just out of curiosity. Geoff: Interestingly, my experience is rather the reverse. As I have said previously, I stupidly allowed my judgment to be dictated by members of my church who were anti-Potter so I didn't read the books. Then, at the end of 2002, when COS appeared in the cinemas, I was staying with my wife in Cardiff at a friend's house. Often, if we are at a loose end in an evening, the question is put "What's on in Barry at the cinema?" Answer - HP2. Did I want to go and see it? Shrug of shoulders - why not? So I went and enjoyed it and, a day or so later, watched PS on Sky Box Office at our friend's place. I was hooked. I returned to my rural retreat, purchased the books and rapidly bought the other two (this is pre-OOTP of course) and the rest is history. That is how a pedantic, canon-obsessed, retired Computer teacher arrived on HPFGU. Blame the films! From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 22:16:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:16:52 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - further thoughts (longish) In-Reply-To: <20040607171257.87006.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > So if the spell is Priori Incantant- > > "I Do" = Priori Incantanto > "They (Form.) Do" = Priori Incantantem > > Just a guess, but: > "You (Form.) Do" = Priori Incantante > "You (Imfor.) Do" = Priori Incantantes > "They (Inform.) Do" = Priori Incantantemos > Geoff: The only problem with this interpretation is that "Priori Incantatem" or "Prior Incantato" does not contain a verb. Incantatem/Incantato are, in my experience the accusative/genitive or dative cases. Prior/Priori is to do with previous things as in the phrase "a priori" (from previous [facts]). I think that "Prior" in the second version does not agree and ought to have an ending. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 7 22:13:32 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 18:13:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Raven in the Tower. was Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100308 In a message dated 6/7/2004 3:16:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, president0084 at yahoo.com writes: Ravens have always been closely related with death, and magpies with bad luck. ======================= Sherrie here: Ravens are also connected with certain deities in various mythos. The ones that immediately leap to mind are the Morrigan (Celtic), which connects them with war and death; and Hugin and Munin (Thought and Memory), who were the messengers of Odin (Norse). Raven is also the messenger of the gods in Native American mythology. From Totem Animals: "Raven energy is the power of magic. Raven medicine is not to be feared, but teaches us to use our magic for the good of mankind, and not for our own selfish ends." Here's a bit on the Celtic Raven, from Celtic Animal Allies: "Raven (Fitheach): Take care when dealing with this bird. An important totem animal of the Celts. In Ireland the raven was associated with the battlefields and such goddesses as the Morrigu or later Welsh Morrigan, just as was the crow. The bird was connected with Bran the Blessed; in Welsh bran means "raven". Although its reputation is dubious, it is an oracular bird. It often represents the upsets and crises of life that are necessary for anything new to be created." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 7 22:21:15 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:21:15 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gift_lady" wrote: Christina: > In OotP why didn't Harry go to McGonagall after detention with > Umbridge and show her what she had done to his hand? Does Fudge > realize she is punishing students this way? I know the ministry > wanted more control but that woman is just plain mean. I hated even > reading that part and I felt for sure that McGonagall would do > something but either she didn't know or couldn't do anything. > > That's all for now. I'll read some more now. Geoff: Because it's a male thing. We often don't complain because (1) we don't want to be called wimps (2) we don't want to let the ****** doing this think they're getting to us (3) we're going to grit our teeth and get through this. I may be of somewhat more advanced years than Harry but I can see precisely where he's coming from. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 22:24:45 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:24:45 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100310 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says That's it, then. It depends on the direction from which you approach the films. As an adult, I understand why the films have to be different from the books, but children are looking for their old friends. As soon as I heard who was directing PoA, I warned people to approach this one as if it were fanfic. "The Little Princess" was the first book I ever got from the library on my "real" library card, so I saw Cuaron's version through the eyes of my inner six-year old, and I *hated* it, hated it, hated it, even as my outer adult appreciated the director's skill. But it was typically clever of JKR to set us all to looking for clues to future books. Little as I liked the movie, I will see it again and buy the DVD just for that. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 22:25:52 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:25:52 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Whichever way you look at it, what could McGonagall really have done? Not a > whole lot. If nothing else, she could have given him something to ease the pain, or prevent the future pain. Or she could have transfigured his hand into something akin to steel. From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 7 22:27:17 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 18:27:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Ghosts Question ( was Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts) References: Message-ID: <001a01c44cde$97efeab0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100312 """"" Which leads me to something else...and I haven't been able to find an answer. Who/what is the Ravenclaw ghost? I really don't recall in the four or so times I've read through the books a ref to Ravenclaw's ghost. Please, don't let it be Moaning Myrtle... Cheers, Lee """" The Ravenclaw ghost is the Grey Lady. I believe we've seen her briefly in a scene in the books, but I can't really remember which one right now, sorry. It might've been GOF. I think the information of the Grey Lady being the Ravenclaw ghost came from a JKR interview. Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 7 23:29:48 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 19:29:48 -0400 Subject: mentions of Luna? Message-ID: <004001c44ce7$54120540$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100313 I'm rereading GOF right now and at the very beginning, the portkey scene, Amos Diggory says, "The Lovegoods have been there for a week already." Do you think this is a mention of Luna and her father? If so, that means she lives somewhere no far from The Burrow. Seeing as her dad runs a newspaper, I think it'd make sense that he wanted to arrive early. I'm going to keep an eye out of her when reading all the scenes of the World Cup. Alina. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 23:49:53 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:49:53 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH & Kloves on Lupin's feelings towards Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100315 vmonte responds: (Requoting material from some of my other posts.) More time travel thoughts... I am repeating the PoA patronus scene with Lupin and Harry below to comment on my previous thoughts regarding whether Harry's father was at Godric's Hollow the night of Voldemort's attack. PoA, U.S. paperback version, p 240-241: "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled. "That's the first time I've ever heard him -- he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it..." (This is the first time Harry has heard his father's voice--so he automatically assumes the voice is him.) "You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. Harry then asks Lupin if he knew his father at school. "I -- I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at Hogwarts..." Lupin then changes the subject back to the patronus charm. The other reason I'm suspicious is that during the filming of SS, I read somewhere(?) that JKR asked that James not be shown during the flash back scene that shows Lily being killed at GH. I do not have a link to prove this as fact, but maybe someone else remembers, or knows, where this thought originates from. In the PoA movie this male voice is gone altogether. Did they not want the audience to recognize the voice of the person at GH? If the voice is not James or Lupin, could it be eighteen year old Harry? What if the voice is time turner Harry at Godric's Hollow? (Before you say that Harry should recognize his own voice, remember that in PoA he is thirteen years old. By the time he time travels to GH he will be seventeen/eighteen.) I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie scenario.) Come to think of it, maybe he uses the penseive to dissect this memory. It would not be the first time that Harry mistook himself to be his father (end of PoA dementor patronus scene). Or was Lupin at GH? Below is a quote from Kloves about his thoughts regarding Lupin's feelings towards Lily: Working movie magic Steve Kloves' scripts make Potter films fly http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/movies/bal- to.kloves04jun04,0,2181479.story?coll=bal-features-headlines Kloves says that when he first met Rowling, he told her he intuited that Lily "was quite special" and that James "was complicated." And in the bridge scene, Lupin "illuminates Harry about his mother - the most wonderful thing about her was that she was understanding toward Lupin at a time few were. She saw something special about him when others, including himself, couldn't." Kloves admits, "I think he was in love with her in many ways." vivian From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Jun 8 00:08:06 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:08:06 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain (C. Rosycross in jeans)/LONG In-Reply-To: <004001c44ce7$54120540$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100316 I will start singing the palinode for what I'm about to post, and saying I'm conscious of the weaknesses of this work. There are references to the Bible, and, though I'm a Christian, I didn't study religion. But I'd like here to add some considerations regarding what Hans wrote in his article `Harry Potter, Christian Rosycross in jeans (see message #11OOO11 and the list files). Of course, any comments are welcome. Hans wrote: "As mentioned above, Harry has a scar in the form of a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Jan van Rijckenborgh says, But the Lord said to Cain: `Whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. The fourth candelabrum in the head sanctuary blazes up like a streak of lightning to blind every adversary 10 Harry bears the sign of Cain, who symbolizes the Son of Fire, the fallen child of God." Harry, bearing the sign of Cain? As I said above, I didn't study religion. I attended gospel when I was a child, but I never speculated about theology. In my memories, Cain was the guy who killed his brother and was sent out by God. He wasn't precisely the portrait of Harry. So I opened my Bible of Jerusalem and read the story of Cain. And I found very interesting parallels. But for the essential, not with Harry. Maybe, as I'm ignorant regarding theology, I'm completely mistaken. If it's the case, you will surely correct me. Let me tell you, however 1) What the Bible tells us about Cain Cain is the first child who was born to Adam and Eve after they committed the original sin and were expelled from the garden of Heaven. Eve sees him as `an acquisition'. Cain is a cultivator. One day, he presents God with the products of his work. But God doesn't accept this sacrifice; he prefers Abel's, Cain's young brother, who is a shepherd. Cain feels so much jealousy towards Abel that he kills him. As a punishment, God sends him out, after marking him, so nobody will be able to hurt him. Cain builds a town and has heirs. Amongst them, we can find the ancestors of blacksmiths, of nomad shepherds and of musicians. One of his descendants, Lemec, inaugurates the use of revenge. We are very far from Harry Potter, aren't we? Patience. We get closer when we consider that story with the Bible and its inner comments in one hand, and a Dictionary of Symbols in the other. 2) What the notes in the Bible and the Dictionary of Symbols tell us about Cain The Bible tells us that Cain, as the eldest brother, is not God's favourite because he represents what God doesn't like, i.e., terrestrial greatness and lack of humility. God prefers Abel, because he is more humble. That implies Cain is not, and that he is arrogant. Cain's arrogance appears rather clearly in his activities: he's a cultivator and a builder. In other words, he tries to equal God. Like God, he makes plants grow, like God, he builds a universe (a town). Unlike Abel the shepherd, who is only a guardian in God's creation, Cain since the beginning wants to be a creator. He's in a sense like Prometheus. He wants to be the master of his own universe, and there isn't much difference between saying that and thinking he's ready to reject God's power and laws. Why should he keep on obeying when he is himself a creator? He rebels against God, trying to equal His creation, but also destroying it, when he kills Abel. He wants his revenge because God didn't like who he is, and what he has done. So he becomes a murderer. A Dictionary of Symbols will tell you that, murdering his brother, Cain is an illustration of the fight of Man against Man. As his brother, Abel is also a part of Cain. Killing him, Cain in a certain sense kills himself. He's deprived of God's presence. And because of the mark God puts on him, he's doomed. The notes in the Bible say the mark is not a sign of infamy, but rather shows that by now, Cain belongs to those who will have bloody revenge as inheritance. But as he assumes the consequences of his acts, the Dictionary of Symbols says he represents the responsibility of Mankind, and that for that reason, he is great. Great, a murderer, an arrogant, a rebel? It depends on the point of view. The Bible is a hermetic book, and that's why it gives way to so many interpretations. One could be the relationship between Cain and his mother, Eve. She calls him her `acquisition'. Does it mean he's there to redeem her? Let's look what Cain does before he becomes a murderer. He's a cultivator. In other words, he does what God told his father Adam to do as a punishment for breaking the rules of the garden of Heaven. The garden, that's interesting. Doesn't Cain try to give back Adam and Eve the garden they lost? Doesn't he try to avenge them for being expelled from the garden of Heaven? Doesn't he try to avenge his mother for the bad choice she made listening to the snake? 3) And Harry Potter, in all that? I can hear you saying: `But what does she want to tell us with her Bible and her Dictionary of Symbols? This is a Harry Potter group, and she's off topic.' Let me remind you what we are examining: the story of someone who tries to equal God, who is arrogant, who is a murderer; the story of a son trying to take his revenge for something that happened to his mother; the story of a guy who gets into trouble, and who puts others into trouble because of what a snake has done several years before. Doesn't it sound familiar to a HP reader? But the time hasn't come yet to make Harry enter the story. So back to Cain. The story of Cain is a prolongation of the story of Eve. It's finally the story of a family long, long ago. We have God as the founder of the family, Eve as the disobedient and punished daughter, and Cain as the grandson, born from his mother's disobedience, and wearing the burden of her fault as an inheritance. That situation will lead him to rebel against his `grandfather', trying to take over him, or trying to destroy what he did. All that because of a snake. If we follow the track the serpent left in the Bible, we can see that, finally, it has the role of a founder. Without the serpent, there is no fault, no punishment, no Cain, and no descendants of Cain. Cain is in a certain sense the heir of the serpent. He inherited from it his arrogance and his destructive force. Of course, he could have chosen not to follow the track the serpent left. But he didn't, because he and his mother had been rejected, and he wanted his revenge. He could have redeemed his family and his kind if he had been more humble, if he had accepted to forgive, as it was his duty, if he hadn't been self centred He wasn't completely bad; he did other things, he created a lineage, and if we believe the Dictionary of Symbols, rebelling consciously he showed greatness. But he failed on the most important point. And since his failure, human kind is doomed to a never ending spiral of resentment and revenge. Now, you probably understand I've been talking since the beginning about Tom Marvolo Riddle, alias Voldemort. In my opinion, if someone shares common points with Cain in the series, it's him, more than Harry. 4) Voldemort as an image of Cain I said above that Cain was the heir of the serpent. That applies also to Voldemort. He bears the sign of the serpent on his reptilian face. And he proclaims he is the heir of Slytherin, whose symbol is the serpent. And whose adversary was named GODric. This is not the only similitude. He is also the son of a mother who disobeyed the rules of her community. Being herself the heir of Slytherin, of the promoter of the `pure-blood lineage concept', she shouldn't have married a Muggle. But she did, and doing that she committed what her kind probably considered like a fault. As if it hadn't been enough, her husband rejected her. We can even think that Tom Riddle Senior rejected his wife and son with the support of his family. Maybe that's why JKR tells us Tom Senior was living with his parents when young Voldemort came to kill them. Tom Marvolo Riddle killed his paternal side and then decided to become the most powerful wizard because he wanted to avenge his mother and to take his own revenge on the magical world. Just like Cain tried to avenge Eve and to take his own revenge on God and His creation. Tom Marvolo's mother was, like Eve, heir of the serpent. Like Eve, she gave birth to her child with pain, with so much pain that she died. Her son would keep forever the regret of the lost maternal garden of Heaven, the garden of the serpent. In the fourth book, he looks like a monstrous reptilian baby. And this is what he is actually: the never grown up son of an exiled woman and a serpent. As an evidence of the strong relation between him and his defunct, rejected mother, look what happens when he has to kill another mother, Lily Potter: he first tries to spare her. Maybe because she reminds him of his own mother? Like Cain, Voldemort wants to be a creator, so he provides himself with a spiritual lineage creating the Death Eaters. And he destroys, he destroys. His spiritual lineage has nothing in common with Cain's lineage of shepherds, blacksmiths and musicians. It's a lineage of destructors and torturers. So we can say Voldemort is worse than Cain. There's nothing positive in what he does. There's only conscious destruction. And finally, when he comes to kill Harry, he repeats the murder Cain committed on Abel. He wants to kill one of the most humble creatures your can find, a baby. We can even find in his act the original jealousy: he wants to kill Harry because of a prophecy telling that the humble baby will become more powerful than him. So he tries to destroy him. But it's not the only thing he does when he curses the child. 5) Harry and the Sign of Cain Harry bears a scar Voldemort gave him. The prophecy said the Dark Lord would mark him as an equal. If Voldemort bears Cain's burden, then we can say, logically, that Harry's scar is the sign of that he shares by now that burden. So that he is an image of Cain too. And we can't deny it; by several aspects Harry is also heir of the serpent. He is able to talk to snakes, and in the fifth book, he turns into a snake in one of his nightmares. He is able to be jealous, to rebel, and even to be rough towards his best friends. Just like Cain and Voldemort do. Cain didn't choose to be the heir of the serpent, neither Voldemort, neither Harry. But there's a huge difference between Harry and his predecessors. He's able to forgive. He didn't want Remus and Sirius to kill Peter. He never plans to take his revenge. He's able to act positively. What Cain did when he killed Abel, what Voldemort did when he marked Harry, were vile acts. They were unable to bear their consciousness, that burning consciousness they had inherited from the serpent, so they decided to take their revenge killing an innocent. Maybe they felt soiled by their terrible inheritance, so they chose to soil another one, to punish him for their own suffering. But Abel and Harry were not responsible for what Cain or Voldemort were living. Voldemort chose to soil Harry, to kill him, as he chose to become the Dark Lord. Now, we can understand better why JKR doesn't agree that `with a hug and some affection', Lord Voldemort could happen to be a good guy. He had a consciousness, and he made deliberately the bad choice. He was pleased to impose his burden on Harry; we can see it in the Chamber of Secrets, when he underlines with delectation their similitude. `I'm doomed and unhappy, so everybody has to share my condition, especially you, Harry Potter, because in you I have an identifiable example', that's probably his only ethic. It's mean and abject. Will Harry become like him? We can bet that, for a matter of suspense, JKR will lead him through dangerous paths. But he doesn't seem to show the same reactions as Voldemort's. In OotP, admittedly, he shouts and he isn't always nice with his friends, because he suffers. But when he realizes he is possessed and feels dirty, soiled, he stands apart; he cuts himself from the others, because he doesn't want to hurt them. At the end of the same book, when he knows definitely he is `a marked man', he stands apart too. Harry bears a burden, he's in chains, but he tries to act positively; something Voldemort didn't manage to do. His scar burns, but he doesn't want the others to be burned. Harry is strong enough to face his own consciousness, and to make the right choice, because he is humble and able to forgive. And also because he wears another mark, besides of the Sign of Cain: he wears the Sign of Love. 6) Of a very old story I will finish coming back to Hans theory of the Path of Liberation. I agree with a possible esoteric reading of the series. However, I'd like to underline the pragmatism we can find in that story. After all, suffering, revenge and destruction are the lot of humankind, since the beginning and everywhere around the world. We all know stories of hatred that passed through the generations. It happens on different levels. It happens between the members of a same family, between countries; it's a matter of psychoanalyze, of sociology, of politics, and there's a constant parameter: the next generation generally has to pay for the former one. From the parent who abuses his children because he has been abused when he was young to the families that hate each other for ancestral reasons; from the rival communities to the states that only know war as a form of communication, we all bear the Sign of Cain. We know there's no greatness in resentment and revenge, but we can't always liberate ourselves from our chains. And finally, maybe that's what makes Harry's success: we hope he'll be able to put an end to that never ending spiral. At least on a fictional level, we would have an escape. Amicalement, Iris From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 01:08:14 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:08:14 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers)--Shipping added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100317 > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically > > the two things > > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided > > to make a list > > of things that I noticed were different from the book. > > I don't > > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let > > me know what > > you think. > > > > 1) Harry is not writing his history class essay but is > > looking at a > > book on how to do spell motions. > > > > 2) Knight bus shrunken head. > > > > 3) Tom instead of Fudge meets Harry. > > Major snipping > > Mike I'd like to suggest that one of the things forshadowed was a Ron/Hermione ship. I'm not much of a shipper in general, but if I had to pick a ship it would be H/H, but even I can't deny the flirting going on between Ron and Hermione when she stays with him after coming out of the Shreiking Shack. I believe the lines went something like: H: It isn't that bad. R: Yes it is. She's going to have to cut it off. H: Madam Pomfry can mend that in a second. R: Oh no. It's gotta come off. . . Anything Ron can do to gain Hermione's sympathy, and Hermione more than willing to give it. MaggieB From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 02:48:29 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 02:48:29 -0000 Subject: The Movie vs. JKR? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100318 I think people are misunderstanding why some of us, or at least me, felt a bit sick after viewing the POA movie. It isn't just about the facts that were changed or left out from the book version but the whole Hogwarts type feeling that we have become accustomed to in the first two movies that was totally gone. Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. When you're tired and just want to escape to a magical world you could visually go there via the movies. Waiting for the POA movie to come out was much like becoming Harry anticipating leaving the Dursley's but when you finally, with much anticipation, got off the Hogwarts Express you found that everything was changed. (Change can be good when it is smoothly introduced, just like in the books, things change but at a growing pace not at a dramatic one.) What the heck happened, did Voldemort come and take over Hogwart's over the summer. No It was just the new director. The new director didn't just clean house he changed the house, the grounds, the lake, the quiddich match and even some of the characters that we knew like Professor Flitwick. But most of all he changed forever that almost tranquil non-existing world of refuge into a real non-existing world. He took the magicalness (new word means beyond magic) out of the magic. I guess to some people they would not be upset by this version of POA because the above depiction was not what the movies represented to them. It would be the same type of feeling if they were to suddenly change every major actor that portrayed each character. If there were no Alan Rickman as Snape, Robbie Coltrane as Hagrid, Maggie Smith as McGonagall, no Radcliffe, Grint or Watson. If all these actors were changed to new ones In The Same Movie, would you want to go? My guess would be that you would say No because you've became accustomed or conditioned to seeing these people play these parts and It wouldn't be the same without them. And it's not the same for me in this new movie in much the same way. To those of you who may be stuck in a mode of thinking that you need to stick up for this film for whatever reasons you feel, please do not feel insulted. I am not trying to insult anyone but I am asking that you respect the feelings of people who may feel like myself and give us an opportunity to be disappointed. Snow-who still has the uncontaminated versions of Hogwarts to watch until what is hopefully a return to what I feel is the real Hogwarts in GOF From adesah at juno.com Mon Jun 7 22:39:44 2004 From: adesah at juno.com (Adesa) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:39:44 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what > happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is > telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie > scenario.) I love the idea! JKR said Cuaron put clues into the movie without realizing it...could that include all the infernal clocks (that keep coming up in the books and JKR's webite and the PoA movie) and Hermione's Back-to-the-Future actions Cuaron added? If Harry saved Snape's life back then, it would be reason for DD to trust him and for Snape to hate (but protect) Harry. Interesting! Adesa From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 23:06:34 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:06:34 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: <010201c44cc7$0b0b4f70$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danielle Arnt" wrote: > Anyone else feel that Crookshanks was robbed in the POA movie? I always thoroughly enjoy the Crookshanks portions of the book, and while I realize portions had to be cut, I was hoping that at least that orange paw would show up on the whomping willow : ( I also get the feeling that Crookshanks might come into similar play later on in the series.>>> I also think that Crookshanks was robbed. We all know that he is more than just a cat. He should have been there during the Shrieking Shack scene. Mike From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jun 8 03:00:41 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 03:00:41 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH & Kloves on Lupin's feelings towards Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100321 "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte responds: (Requoting material from some of my other posts.) > > More time travel thoughts... > > I am repeating the PoA patronus scene with Lupin and Harry below to > comment on my previous thoughts regarding whether Harry's father was > at Godric's Hollow the night of Voldemort's attack. > > PoA, U.S. paperback version, p 240-241: > "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled. "That's the first time I've ever > heard him -- he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum > time to run for it..." (This is the first time Harry has heard his > father's voice--so he automatically assumes the voice is him.) > > "You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. > > Harry then asks Lupin if he knew his father at school. > > "I -- I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at > Hogwarts..." > Lupin then changes the subject back to the patronus charm. > > The other reason I'm suspicious is that during the filming of SS, I > read somewhere(?) that JKR asked that James not be shown during the > flash back scene that shows Lily being killed at GH. I do not have a > link to prove this as fact, but maybe someone else remembers, or > knows, where this thought originates from. > > In the PoA movie this male voice is gone altogether. Did they not > want the audience to recognize the voice of the person at GH? > > If the voice is not James or Lupin, could it be eighteen year old > Harry? > > What if the voice is time turner Harry at Godric's Hollow? > (Before you say that Harry should recognize his own voice, remember > that in PoA he is thirteen years old. By the time he time travels to > GH he will be seventeen/eighteen.) > > I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what > happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is > telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie > scenario.) Come to think of it, maybe he uses the penseive to dissect > this memory. > > It would not be the first time that Harry mistook himself to be his > father (end of PoA dementor patronus scene). SNIPPED ------------------------------------------- Okay, if we run with this, then it also makes me wonder about Harry's memory of "just talking" with his parents that he really shouldn't have this memory. He's had issues with voices in his head before (Tom Riddle name recognition, the one that fights Imperius and the one telling him to kill Sirius) but this memory of talking seems odd indeed. Say 18 year old Harry turns back and goes to GH before the fateful Halloween night and say he then explains whatever he needs to explain to his parents there and the three of them *do* end up talking ....and Baby!Harry overhears this conversation and, like the way the memory of his mother dying is entrenched in his infant memory, so is this one. Hmm, you've got me thinking now.... Say Harry goes back in time and ends up defeating Voldemort for good before any Potters are killed and changes his own timeline so that he grows up completely normal, with both parents and in a world free of Voldemort (and without a scar)? Arya From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 02:31:22 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:31:22 EDT Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <13.2d162c74.2df67efa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100322 > bboy_mn wrote: > I'm stumped! I can't see how or why a graveyard would be at > Hogwarts, Wizards seem to not have a religion, aside from celebrating a few pagan (Halloween) and Christian holidays (as well as some that are quite similar in both systems, such as Yule/Christmas). Many churches have affiliated cemetaries. I could see Wizarding establishments containing one. Especially Hogwarts, which could have one for teachers and former students who, perhaps, do not have a family graveyard (because for some reason, I really see families like the Malfoys and the Blacks having their own family graveyards with those beautiful elaborate gravestones). I think a graveyard fits well with the atmosphere and type of place Hogwarts is. "KuteJCLuvr" From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 00:32:16 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:32:16 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Emotional Removal WAS Re: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gift_lady" wrote: big snip (sorry!) > I also haven't seen answers to a few things I'm thinking of. In POA > when Aunt Marge is visiting she insults Harry's mother with the > female dog reference. Petunia is sitting right there. Does she not > care that this woman is insulting her sister? We know from OotP why > the Dursley's agreed to take Harry in even though they hate > everything having to do with the wizarding world, but I would think > Petunia would hate having her sister described that way. Did Aunt > Marge forget that Petunia was Harry's mother's sister? Couldn't she > say Petunia was the same? Honestly, I think Petunia was/is so removed from her late sister, since they've been estranged for so long. So I didn't think she'd be insulted at all. I mean, she's looking after her sister's only son, but look how she allows her husband and son to treat him. And Petunia's a Dursley now, and she seems to hold all of their ideals-- well, she appears to, at least. Alia From lrt927 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 02:27:45 2004 From: lrt927 at yahoo.com (Lyric Tinsley) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 19:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione's Secret (was Clues to 6&7 in POA Film) Message-ID: <20040608022745.87735.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100324 I joined HPFGU not too long ago and have been reading religiously ever since. I decided to post because I noticed something in POA that I havent seen mentioned yet. S P O I L E R In the scene where Snape takes Lupin's class and lectures on the topic of werewolves, Hermione lists the characteristics of a werewolf and how to recognize one. The last identifying feature that she mentions is "A werewolf only responds to the call of it's own kind." Later, when Lupin transforms, Harry and Ron try to pull Hermione away and run but she stays where she is and tries to talk to Lupin, to make him hear her and not transform completely. Then, when Harry and Hermione travel back and are watching Lupin advance upon Harry, Hermione howls (calls) to distract Lupin and...he RESPONDS. He runs into the woods toward Hermione. Thoughts? Comments? Do I really think Hermione is a werewolf? Um...no, probably not... Is it possible...maybe... She might not be a werewolf as of yet, but since we're talking about possible CLUES for the upcoming books, I thought this might be worth mentioning. LRT927 (who smiles wickedly and shouts "bring it on" to all the nay-sayers in the crowd) From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Tue Jun 8 03:02:54 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:02:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA - Book vrs movie Message-ID: <1d8.236eacc1.2df6865e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100325 Extremely off topic but when we all complain that GOF is too short, Cuaron convinced Kloves to write a screenplay for 1 movie not 2. And if it's not a 3 hr movie and ever then it's pushing it, I for one will be very upset. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 00:35:32 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:35:32 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100326 Pippin wrote: > Slytherin was always flexible about rules--I have this sneaking > suspicion that Myrtle, cunning and devious, was a Slytherin > despite her Muggle birth. Wouldn't Draco be shocked!> Yes! I was wondering this myself! Do you HAVE to be pure-blooded to be in Slytherin, or just very ambitious? Alia From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 02:14:34 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:14:34 EDT Subject: Questions about Prefects & Head Boy/Girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100327 Lee writes: > Percy was a prefect in the first two books and head boy in the > third...Fifth, Sixth and 7th years. > > Therefore, I'd assume that the head boy and girl are also prefects since > Percy had both badges. James Potter was Head Boy, but never a prefect. Based on that, Head Boy and Prefect are not always tied together. "KuteJCLuvr" From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 02:02:20 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:02:20 EDT Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100328 imamommy writes: > according to Sirius, Snape was > sort of Lucius' stooge. Wait! I thought it had been found that Lucius graduated when Snape and the marauders were all in second year! Snape was friends with Bellatrix and many other Death Eaters, but he was not in the same year or remotely close to Lucius. Yuiren, who just decided to read OotP for the fifth or so time just because she got confused by this comment and really needs a life... From debcip at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 01:44:30 2004 From: debcip at yahoo.com (debcip) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:44:30 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100329 Could someone please explain to me how Harry conjured the Prongs Patronus (as opposed to his father, which would have made more sense) when he was lying near dead on the bank with Sirius? I didn't understand this when I read the book, and the movie has not helped either. "debcip" From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 01:38:46 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:38:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny the Pinocchio effect In-Reply-To: <40C4BF62.9060807@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100330 > > Brenda wrote: > > - Cho Chang (as we all know, very pretty, popular and athletic) -- > > KOREAN (judging by her name, I highly doubt that she is Chinese.. > > although to be honest, no one I've ever known/heard of is named > > Cho; both Cho & Chang are very common Korean last names.. I > > thought her name was very odd, but my Canadian friend thought it > > was cute) Jemima: > My friend is Chinese-American and her last name is Chang. Chang > means yellow in Chinese. Oh haha, I didn't mean Chang is ONLY Korean last name.. there are quite a few last names shared by both Koreans and Chinese, for instance, Lee (or sometimes spelled as Li, altho if it's 'LI' then it's definitely Chinese, not Korean).. I believe it's because some people from China settled in Korea (like my last name, Myung, has its origin in China but I'm Korean) - it was extremely rare back then for Korean people to travel abroad and settle. What I meant was that both CHO and CHANG are quite common Korean last names (I don't think I've met any Chinese with the last name Cho).. but to use "Cho" as a girl's first name.. that's highly unusual since if the name is put in Korean way (which will be more closely pronounced as "Jang Jo").. then it sounds AWFUL, funny and weird.. kinda like a part of Korean food and.. just really really ODD.. I apologize for going on and on about her name, I just really hate that name since it's just very unlikely. Although I doubt JK Rowling knew too much about it anyways. "Brenda" From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Tue Jun 8 01:14:53 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:14:53 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100331 > Geoff: > Because it's a male thing. We often don't complain because (1) we > don't want to be called wimps (2) we don't want to let the ****** > doing this think they're getting to us (3) we're going to grit our > teeth and get through this. > > I may be of somewhat more advanced years than Harry but I can see > precisely where he's coming from. Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I think he was an idiot. If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would have screamed all the way to the courtroom. Dzeytoun From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 01:09:56 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:09:56 -0000 Subject: When did the Ministry know about Death Eaters and their Marks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100332 There is a theory going around that Fudge himself is a former death eater -- don't know if this one has been discussed here as I haven't read all the past posts, so if I am repeating old news please excuse -- Anyway, the theory is that Fudge, and not Snape, is the death eater mentioned by LV in the climactic scene of GoF, when he says: "One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed." The Mugglenet.com editorial feature the North Tower presents a pretty intriguing argument for this idea (see North Tower #15 -- sorry not to imbed a link, but I'm an techno troglodyte and alas don't know how!) If true, this theory might explain a number of things: why Fudge had such a reaction of extreme denial to the idea that LV has returned, why he was in such a rush to eliminate Barty Crouch before he could even say a word, why Lucius Malfoy has him wrapped around his finger. It's just possible that both Barty and Lucius, being close to LV, were privy to the fact that Fudge had been a death eater. He couldn't risk Barty blurting it out, and he must appease Lucius to keep him from disclosing what he knows. As to why other Death Eaters don't seem to know about Fudge -- well, LV deliberately kept his followers in the dark as to exactly how many death eaters there were and who they all were. So, assuming that this theory is true, Fudge (as well as other former Death Eaters working at the ministry) would naturally want to keep the existence of the Dark Mark a secret. They don't want it known that there is a positive way to identify past and present Death Eaters, as this would put them at risk of being exposed. (Those flowing robes are wonderfully concealing, but you never know when someone may catch a glimpse of bare arm). This would also explain why Fudge expressed no curiosity or surprise when Snape showed him the Dark Mark on his arm, but shook his head and said "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at." That sounds like something the bad guy in a Colombo espisode might say when Colombo starts to corner him. The situation at the ministry regarding the Dark Mark may be depressingly like the muggle governments that keep damaging information "classified" becauses it poses a threat to them politically. Jamie C. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 01:07:27 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:07:27 -0400 Subject: mentions of Luna? References: <004001c44ce7$54120540$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <05f901c44cf4$f744a9e0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100333 Let me tell you something, I find Luna fascinating. I don't think Jim Dale did her voice very well at all. I am definitely sure she will have a bigger part to play in future. Watch this one. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 00:42:02 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:42:02 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100334 Geoff: > Interestingly, my experience is rather the reverse. As I have said > previously, I stupidly allowed my judgment to be dictated by > members of my church who were anti-Potter so I didn't read the books. > Then, at the end of 2002, when COS appeared in the cinemas, I was > staying with my wife in Cardiff at a friend's house. Often, if we are > at a loose end in an evening, the question is put "What's on in Barry > at the cinema?" Answer - HP2. Did I want to go and see it? Shrug of > shoulders - why not? So I went and enjoyed it and, a day or so later, > watched PS on Sky Box Office at our friend's place. I was hooked. I > returned to my rural retreat, purchased the books and rapidly > bought the other two (this is pre-OOTP of course) and the rest is > history. That is how a pedantic, canon-obsessed, retired Computer > teacher arrived on HPFGU. Blame the films! Well, I wanted NOTHING to do with HP (all the media buzz turned me off), but I saw SS on HBO, and I was amazed at how cute the film was! Then, I started at Barnes & Noble in June 2003--11 days before OotP was to be released--so I finally said, "What's the big deal? You know what, let me just buy these stupid books and find out." Now I'm hooked, and my mother hates me . Alia, who is in the process of fashioning herself a Ravenclaw pin to wear daily From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 03:17:33 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:17:33 -0400 Subject: The Movie vs. JKR? References: Message-ID: <061001c44d07$246a1ba0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100335 God love you, hon'. My problem is that I feel exactly the way you do, but I find myself sticking up for the movie anyway, as I've said before. Now, I'm normally no fense-sitter, but on this one, I have to come down on both sides. Oh, yes, I came down on both sides, and managed to get a wood splinter in a very uncomfortable place in the process. Ouch! June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From plstcfish at aol.com Tue Jun 8 03:37:20 2004 From: plstcfish at aol.com (plstcfish at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:37:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raven in the Tower. =?ISO-8859-1?B?oHdhcyBDbHVlcyB0byA2JjcgaW4gUE9BIGZpbG0=?= Message-ID: <3207AB46.37743AB8.027FB8C4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100336 I interpreted all the ravens at Hagrid's hut as symbols of death for the fate of Buckbeak (or at least his intended fate)...sort of like vultures circling, but vultures would be sort of out of place. Plus I figured it for general creepy death-is-imminant atmosphere...but if something more could be read into it, it would be interesting Ashley/ChibiSerenity From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 00:23:08 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:23:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Ginny the Pinocchio effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100337 > > sarahmint at y... wrote: > >>>>> I was looking at the site > http://weasleylove.homestead.com/Evidence.html to learn more about > the Harry-Ginny love for the future, and it actually turned me down > to my hopes that they would get together in the future. What are > your comments? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Brenda: > I read the essay forementioned online.. and I must say, I > COMPLETELY agree with it (you guys should all take a look at it)! I > really really believe and hope that Harry and Ginny end up together, > heehee. I liked the essay too, and I'm glad she's a R/Hr & H/G shipper! Well, I totally agree with the R/Hr evidence, but the H/G evidence wasn't strong enough, IMO. At this point (end of OotP), Harry can just become close friends with Ginny. Or, he can have some time to think about everything while he's back at Privet Drive, and when he sees her again, and is able to get to know her even better. > (1) I absolutely do NOT believe that Ginny had given up on Harry. > > by dating many guys --Neville, Michael, Dean-- she is proving > herself to be a very sought-out, eligible Bachelorette.. > However, I do not for a second believe that Ginny actually > "loved" any of her ex'es as much as she does Harry, and if Harry does > ask her out in the 6th book I think her heart will burst even more red > than her hair! Hmm, I can go either way on that. Ginny seemed to be getting on quite all right, I think we can all agree. I think she cares for Harry, but I don't know if she does romantically--(crosses fingers) yet. > >>> Harry, whose head had been full of Cho's parting wave, did not > find this subject as interesting as Ron, who was positively > quivering with indignation, but it did bring something home to him > that until now he had not really registered. "So that's why she > talks now?" he asked Hermione."She never used to talk in front of > me." (Order of Phoenix, 349. US) <<< > > Is it just me.. or wishful thinking.. but does Harry sound > somewhat disappointed to you? No, I didn't think he sounded disappointed. I took this to be literal--he just happened to realize at that moment that Ginny has, in fact, started talking to him normally. > And I keep hearing people talking about the possibility of Harry- > Luna.. I personally think that's CRAZY.. Lol, I really ship H/G, but I would not be mad at a Harry/Luna, because they have a lot in common, and his little chat with her towards the end of OotP, opened his eyes a bit. I mean, she wasn't so "Loony" after all. > Something else I have noticed: J.K. Rowling has been very cautious > and (somewhat) political about wizard beauties and talented > personelles.. I just thought that this was a great way to show diversity in the WW. You have different witches and wizards, talented or whatever else, in their own way, and how they can be noticed or appreciated because of it. Alia, who has a love/hate relationship with the new HP film. From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 03:41:13 2004 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 03:41:13 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers)--Shipping added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100338 MaggieB wrote: > > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically > > > the two things > > > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided > > > to make a list > > > of things that I noticed were different from the book. [Major snipping] > but even I can't deny the > flirting going on between Ron and Hermione when she stays with him > after coming out of the Shreiking Shack. I believe the lines went > something like: > H: It isn't that bad. > R: Yes it is. She's going to have to cut it off. > H: Madam Pomfry can mend that in a second. > R: Oh no. It's gotta come off. . . > > Anything Ron can do to gain Hermione's sympathy, and Hermione more > than willing to give it. This is a terrible thing to say, but Ron is imitating Draco's strategy of overstating an injury to win sympathy. I hope this doesn't foreshadow Ron!Draco_Groupie . . . The books are full of red herrings. The movies don't have time for that. The explanation of the Marauders was cut because those deeply familiar with it don't need it, and it's unnecessary to the film. On the other hand, Trewlawney's prophecy isn't essential to *this* film, either. Sirius flies off into the sunset, and nothing is heard of Lord Thingy. The scene just sort of hangs there, in a leaden way. So, three points. First, many additions may be inocuous: the scene of the boys with the magical candy is a quick and efficient way of conveying not only that "boys will be boys" but that "wizards will be wizards". It conveys the ambience of a magical boarding school, in under a minute. The Headless Hunt's intrusions don't even slow the action, but convey a lot of atmosphere. Second, clues can be found from a "dog in the night" approach. Perhaps by looking for what could easily have been cut, but wasn't, we can find out what is essential. Things that work cinematographically may be meaningless to canon; but things that *don't work* for a movie and are nonetheless there may not be there inexplicably. They may be there because Rowling insisted they stay. Lastly, an application of the above. We know Rowling likes prophecies. Maybe she read too much Suetonius. She built the plot of OotP around one which seems less like a mountain than a molehill. The prophecy stayed in this movie despite its eminent cutability. Something smells funny here. - Caipora (who liked the movie) From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 23:12:48 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:12:48 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100339 Geoff wrote: > Interestingly, my experience is rather the reverse. As I have said > previously, I stupidly allowed my judgment to be dictated by > members of my church who were anti-Potter so I didn't read the > books. > Then, at the end of 2002, when COS appeared in the cinemas, I was > staying with my wife in Cardiff at a friend's house. Often, if we > are at a loose end in an evening, the question is put "What's on in > Barry at the cinema?" Answer - HP2. Did I want to go and see it? > Shrug of shoulders - why not? So I went and enjoyed it and, a day or > so later, watched PS on Sky Box Office at our friend's place. I was > hooked. I returned to my rural retreat, purchased the books and > rapidly bought the other two (this is pre-OOTP of course) and the > rest is history. > That is how a pedantic, canon-obsessed, retired Computer teacher > arrived on HPFGU. Blame the films! I also didn't start reading the books until I saw the first movie. I took my nieces and thought it was a pretty good movie. Only when I started substitute teaching and seeing fourth graders (10 year olds) reading Goblet of Fire and talking about how the movie was different from the book did I become interested and read the books. I now enjoy talking to students about the books and sharing my theories with them. In many years after the seven books are all completed and everybody knows the whole story, we will be able to tell younger generations what it was like to speculate about what was going to happen. I don't know if anything like this has ever happened in the history of literature. Mike From littlekat10 at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 03:41:40 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:41:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: mentions of Luna? References: <004001c44ce7$54120540$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> <05f901c44cf4$f744a9e0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <005201c44d0a$827e3f20$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100340 I really like Luna, too, and June, I agree about the way Jim Dale read her. I'm wondering if she'll end up being Harry's girl-friend or possibly a successor of Madam Trelawny. Littlekat From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 03:29:48 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 20:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry at GH & Kloves on Lupin's feelings towards Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608032948.70898.qmail@web50104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100341 Arya wrote: > Hmm, you've got me thinking now.... Say Harry goes back in time and > ends up defeating Voldemort for good before any Potters are killed and > changes his own timeline so that he grows up completely normal, with > both parents and in a world free of Voldemort (and without a scar)? Now my head is hurting!! I need to weigh in on this one!! On another thread the statement was made that Snape would "put a stopper in (HP's) death." Suppose what he actually does is teach HP to put a stopper in death. Sorry... cannot take that one any further tonight... I have to finish thinking this one through. moonmyyst (who's mind is not functioning too well after working 12 hours today) From littlekat10 at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 03:43:59 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:43:59 -0400 Subject: Possibly OT but (Lightning Bolt) Message-ID: <005e01c44d0a$d523a030$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100342 What does a lightning bolt look like? I am absolutely clueless! Total blindness doth have its price. Littlekat From hgranger919 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 03:29:14 2004 From: hgranger919 at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 20:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Movie vs. JKR? Message-ID: <20040608032914.49091.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100343 Snow says: > Snow-who still has the uncontaminated versions of Hogwarts to watch > until what is hopefully a return to what I feel is the real Hogwarts > in GOF But all of the movie versions of Hogwarts are contaminated according to the books, are they not? Suzanne From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 03:47:16 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:47:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100344 >>>From: gift_lady [mailto:clr1971 at alltel.net] I also haven't seen answers to a few things I'm thinking of. In POA when Aunt Marge is visiting she insults Harry's mother with the female dog reference. Petunia is sitting right there. Does she not care that this woman is insulting her sister? We know from OotP why the Dursley's agreed to take Harry in even though they hate everything having to do with the wizarding world, but I would think Petunia would hate having her sister described that way. Did Aunt Marge forget that Petunia was Harry's mother's sister? Couldn't she say Petunia was the same?<<< Petunia has always talked about her sister with disgust and contempt. I'm sure Marge knew that is the way Petunia felt after all the year she and Vernon were together. Barbara aka bd-bear From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 04:02:38 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:02:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia's Emotional Removal WAS Re: Harry as last DADA teacher? References: Message-ID: <006001c44d0d$70d6b790$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100345 > > I also haven't seen answers to a few things I'm thinking of. In POA > > when Aunt Marge is visiting she insults Harry's mother with the > > female dog reference. Petunia is sitting right there. Does she not > > care that this woman is insulting her sister? We know from OotP why > > the Dursley's agreed to take Harry in even though they hate > > everything having to do with the wizarding world, but I would think > > Petunia would hate having her sister described that way. Did Aunt > > Marge forget that Petunia was Harry's mother's sister? Couldn't she > > say Petunia was the same? > > Honestly, I think Petunia was/is so removed from her late sister, > since they've been estranged for so long. So I didn't think she'd be > insulted at all. I mean, she's looking after her sister's only son, > but look how she allows her husband and son to treat him. And > Petunia's a Dursley now, and she seems to hold all of their ideals-- > well, she appears to, at least. > > Alia Aunt Marge certainly didn't forget who she was talking about, here's the dialogue: Canadian edition page 26: "...Now, I'm saying nothing against your family, Petunia" - she patted Aunt Petunia's bony hand with her shovel-like one, "but your sister was a bad egg. They turn up in the best families." I think that Petunia didn't say anything because she was afraid that any acknowledgement from her that Marge was out of line would incite Harry. And besides, when you spend a lifetime despising someone, it must be very hard to defend them in any way. For all we know, Petunia was keeping herself mentally in check during that moment like Harry was throughout aunt Marge's whole stay. Petunia's not a very redeemable character, but in book five we have Harry feeling, for the first time, that she *was* Lily's sister and understood things that Vernon didn't. Personally, I believe she doesn't like people talking trash about Lily any more than she likes hearing people praise her, herself having spend all that energy on forgetting she has a sister at all. Alina. From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 03:54:29 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:54:29 EDT Subject: POA Prongs Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100346 debcip writes: > Could someone please explain to me how Harry conjured the Prongs > Patronus (as opposed to his father, which would have made more > sense) when he was lying near dead on the bank with Sirius? I > didn't understand this when I read the book, and the movie has not > helped either. Well, James is dead, so he couldn't have done it. That was not the Harry who was with Sirius who conjured it. That was the Harry who had gone back in time with Hermione. It's all about time travel. He thought he had seen his dad, but it had been himself in the future. Yuiren From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 04:06:38 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:06:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA Prongs Patronus References: Message-ID: <006a01c44d0d$ffbff3e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100347 > Could someone please explain to me how Harry conjured the Prongs > Patronus (as opposed to his father, which would have made more > sense) when he was lying near dead on the bank with Sirius? I > didn't understand this when I read the book, and the movie has not > helped either. > > "debcip" Using the Time-turner, Harry and Hermione travelled back in time three hours. After saving Buckbeak from an execution they were waiting for everyone involved to emerge from the Shrieking Shack. They ran over to the lake, opposite side from where their past selves (or rather Harry's past self and Sirius) were. Harry kept on waiting for his dad to show up somehow, and then realized that it wasn't his dad he had seen, but his own time-travelling self. He produced the Patronus, knowing his could this time because he had already seen himself do it several hours earlier. It's a bit of a complicated scene, just keep in mind there are two Harries and two Hermionies. Alina. From chris_tennies2003 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 03:58:23 2004 From: chris_tennies2003 at yahoo.com (chris) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 03:58:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100348 After reading Order of the Phoenix, I'm sure a lot of people felt that Harry and Cho were done for good. But somehow I feel there is still something unresolved between them. Yes, they went on a date, but they were never official. Cho had her issues with Cedric and her jealousy of Hermione to deal with. A lot of people thought that Cho was a stuck up jerk, but her boyfriend had died. Wouldn't we all react the same way in that situation? I feel that Cho will still play a part in Harry's life in the next book, although I'm a little unsure about book seven. Don't count her out of the picture just yet. Also, did JK say there was going to be romance in the final two books? From marcuscason at charter.net Tue Jun 8 04:11:55 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:11:55 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100349 Potioncat stated: "Yes, I read about this scene before the movie and thought the same thing. Now, the interesting thing is, PoA was filming when OoP came out. So when was this scene added? Along the same line, Aunt Marge is floating out doors with her undergarments in view as well, much like the Muggles in GoF. So the audience is laughing at these two scenes, but should be shocked at the canon episodes.....I'm not sure how that is going to play." Kyntor replies: JKR could be trying tell us something with this scene. Maybe she is trying to say that we are taking the scene between Snape and James too seriously. This could simply be her way of giving us a nudge in the right direction. There's no doubt that James was a jerk in Snape's worst memories, but we really don't know what led up to this event. Knowing Snape as we do, we can assume that his hands weren't exactly clean as far as picking on others go. Maybe JKR feels that Snape's experiences from the Marauder's was some type of karmic pay-back. It is interesting to think about. :) From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 04:02:06 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:02:06 EDT Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100350 Alia wrote: > Yes! I was wondering this myself! Do you HAVE to be pure-blooded to > be in Slytherin, or just very ambitious? I don't think a non-pure-blooded wizard in Slytherin would have any friends and the pure-blood families tend to know most, if not all of the other pure-blooded families. I think it's highly unlikely, but I guess anythig's possible. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 04:25:33 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:25:33 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH & Kloves on Lupin's feelings towards Lily In-Reply-To: <20040608032948.70898.qmail@web50104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100351 Arya wrote: Hmm, you've got me thinking now.... Say Harry goes back in time and ends up defeating Voldemort for good before any Potters are killed and changes his own timeline so that he grows up completely normal, with both parents and in a world free of Voldemort (and without a scar)? vmonte responds: I don't think that Harry is going to be able to save his parents. In fact, I think that Hermione's warning in PoA that bad things have happened to wizards that have meddled with time will more than likely happen to Harry. (Remember my post was a response to a dream I had, I have no idea if this action will even take place.) If Harry does go back, I think that things are not going to work out the way he plans. What if seeing 18 year old Harry is the reason that Lily ultimately decides to sacrifice her own life to save him as a baby? Let's say that Harry goes back but does not tell his mom who he is. Who is to say that his mom wouldn't figure it out anyway. She sees someone who looks like James and has her eyes... And What if Harry bumps into unexpected people on the way. What would they make of him? Would they think he was a DE? Going back would be a bad idea all the way around. But unfortunately, if given the means and opportunity, it's definitely something Harry would do. Or come to think of it, Neville has just as much to gain by going back as Harry does. vmonte From bess_va at lycos.com Tue Jun 8 04:00:41 2004 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va2000) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:00:41 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100352 As to "Back to the Future" scenarios, my favorite is Harry decides to take on Tom Riddle before Tom does any more damage (other than Myrtle's death and Hagrid's expulsion)..."Frank (Bryce) was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent, and the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale." (GOF, Scholastic paperback, page 3) Who was the dark-haired boy? Tom Riddle or Harry Potter? We're led to believe its Tom; after all, Voldemort says he killed his own father (easiest reference to find as the book's in front of me, GOF, Scholastic paperback, page 646). But what if it's Harry? How rash is Harry? Would he risk everything, literally his entire future, to stop Voldemort? "bess_va2000" From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 04:18:38 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:18:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100353 >>>From: dzeytoun [mailto:dzeytoun at fanfiction.net] Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I think he was an idiot. If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would have screamed all the way to the courtroom.<<< LOL I only read OOTP once when it first came out and will be reading it again soon. I do vaguely remember him being abused by some teacher and being outraged that DD would allow it to happen . . . Barbara http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 04:19:02 2004 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:02 -0000 Subject: The Movie vs. JKR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100354 "snow15145" wrote: > I think people are misunderstanding why some of us, or at least me, > felt a bit sick after viewing the POA movie. It isn't just about the > facts that were changed or left out from the book version but the > whole Hogwarts type feeling that we have become accustomed to in the > first two movies that was totally gone. > > Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. When you're > tired and just want to escape to a magical world you could visually > go there via the movies. and also a small snip here: >>But most of all he changed forever that almost tranquil non-existing world of refuge into a real non-existing world. He took the magicalness (new word means beyond magic) out of the magic. << While I agree with you that Hogwarts was comfortable in the first two movies, I think one of the main things to look at is Harry is growing up. Have you ever noticed that when you're younger, things look cleaner, brighter and nicer? Harry is beginning to lose his innocence. In much the same way, the audience loses it with Harry. Hogwarts is no longer a bright, happy safe refuge from the world's troubles. The world's troubles are coming to Harry on all sides. Although I have to admit that I thought Hogwarts always looked too clean for being about 1,000 years old, I did like the old sets, but I adore the new sets even more. I am not really arguing the point with you so much as explaining where I am coming from regarding the movie. :) ~Krissy From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 04:33:38 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:33:38 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Ideology, in context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100355 "Eric Oppen" wrote: > And _how_ often do you find the children of wizards and witches > raised in the Muggle world? Considering how difficult wizards and > witches are to kill, and how long-lived they are, I'd be willing to > bet longish odds that Tom Riddle and Harry Potter are about the > only examples of such a situation in centuries. Muggle-born wizards > and witches, OTOH, are apparently not that uncommon. I have no idea how common either type of child is in the WW, but my point still stands. We have never heard Harry get insulted for having been raised by Muggles. Draco and his friends pick on Harry for all sorts of reasons, but *not* because of where he was raised. They call Hermione a M*dblood, but they do not have an analogous slur for Harry. Thus, I think we can safely conclude that it *is* blood that is the basis for their contempt. > And, again, _we don't know_ how dodgy a rep Muggle-born or Muggle- > raised wizards and witches have. All it would take would be a few > really spectacular examples of such gone bad to give them all a bad > reputation. *snip* I'm sorry to snip so much, but I really wanted to respond to just this point, because I've seen a lot of these types of arguments on this board, and I've always been tempted to respond. I'm not picking on you; rather, I'm responding categorically to everyone who has made this argument before. Of course you're correct that we don't know what happened during parts of the story that have not been told (or during eras that precede the story that we have not been told about). Sure, it's theoretically possible that Muggle-raised children a thousand years ago raised havoc, and that's why the Slytherins today hate them. Similar arguments get made by some of the SHIPpers; for example: "We don't really know what Hermione and Viktor's relationship was like, because we don't know what they were doing when Harry wasn't around." Well yeah, that's true, but what does one do with that bit of insight? We also don't know what Ron and Pansy Parkinson's relationship is really like, because we don't know what *they're* doing when Harry's not around, either...right? I guess my point is this: your argument about the Slytherin ideology seems to be, essentially, "Their views might be justified, because we don't know what might have happened throughout history to give rise to them, so we shouldn't judge them for hating Mu*bloods." To that, my only response can be: Yeah, you might be right, and if you are, we'll find out. But right now, there's no canon to support it, and I'm pretty far from convinced. > Firstly, we don't know how Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws feel about > such things---we see very little of them, thanks to a _certain_ > person who is less curious than I'd be in his shoes. Secondly, we > really know little of the Slytherins' POV other than via Draco > Malfoy...who is someone I do not necessarily view as a bubbling > fountain of truth and enlightenment. The gods know that there are > enough sub-groups in Gryffindor house, so why should the Slyths be > different? True; we don't know a lot about the other houses. But we do know that they mingle, and the Slytherins seem not to. Slytherin was the only house not represented in DA, and by the end of DA, I think we can assume that the members (of all three houses) developed a healthy respect for Harry. There may be *members* of each house that are suspicious of Muggle-born (or raised) children, just as there may be individual Slytherins who do not share the view, but neither view appears to be the majority view in the WW. --Cory From darkthirty at shaw.ca Tue Jun 8 05:23:00 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 05:23:00 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100356 Let's bring this back from OT, because it is worth considering. "snow15145" wrote: > Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. When you're > tired and just want to escape to a magical world you could visually > go there via the movies.... > But most of all he changed forever that almost tranquil non-existing > world of refuge into a real non-existing world. He took the > magicalness (new word means beyond magic) out of the magic. How many of us, from the books, have the impression that Hogwarts is a nice place, or tranquil? I mean, aside from the fact that, if we were wizards, we'd be able to accomplish certain things by waving a wand and saying stuff in latin? Hogwarts is a place with bullies and bigots (Slytherin, Ravenclaw to Luna), nasty (Snape), evil (Lockhart - seriously debilitating charms, Umbridge - torture) or even murderous (Quirrell, Lupin?!?!) teachers, inept, dangerous politicians and bureaucrats (Fudge, Percy), children of radical racial purists, collapsed secret tunnels (the one behind the mirror), deadly hidden chambers (COS), nearly unusable washrooms (the girl's washroom where Myrtle hangs out), a poltergeist who delights in breaking stuff, throwing things at students and practising the insult of the day. In Rowling, that is to say, the muggle world is an exaggerated world (at least, through the home life of the Dursleys), and the magical world is a fair reflection of all the problems of the real world. That is her inversion. You can't use magic to be fabulously rich, or to get followers, or to get a political appointment. You still need to threaten, bribe, cheat and steal to do that in the magical world. Magic may be part of your technique, but it doesn't seem there's an incantation to be fabulously rich. Wizards just have a few more tools - wands, potions and such - to bribe, cheat, steal and threaten with. Bullies have different weapons/methods to bully with. And Umbridge has a fascinating torture-yourself pen, don't you think, to use on 15 year olds? That's not comfortable or tranquil, to me anyway. Perhaps it has something to do with the value placed on self control. A wizard who loses self control can cause things to happen just thinking it. (Thank goodness we can't, at least not literally.) And end up in Azkaban for it. That's fine, if people don't react to the value placed on self-control by finding other means to acheive their inner desires. So, there's a premium on good behaviour, especially where muggles are involved. That being the case, hidden Hogwarts is like open season on spells and charms not allowed under usual circumstances. A bit unsettling, I'd say. The trials and tribulations of high school with portable power devices in everyone's pocket. Yikes. I'd like to hear what others say about this. For me, Hogwarts is a place full of menace, jealousy and other such things, but also of friendship, courage and so forth. But I would never call it a nice or tranquil place. Even the architecture has traps (the stair in GOF). Dan From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 05:03:49 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:03:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of Differences (spoile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100357 >>>From: mad_maxime [mailto:mad_maxime at hotmail.com] Here's the link to the USA Today article - http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm HPANA also has a link to a video version of the interview. You can check that out here - http://www.hpana.com/news.18158.html<<< First, let me say thank you for posting those links. I'm one of the people who disliked the movie and didn't understand why JKR thought it was so good. But now I understand a little better what she was thinking. She obviously does see her books and the movies based on them as separate entities and was happy that Cuaron was able to capture the emotional undercurrent of her book. This doesn't make me like the movie any better, but at least I understand where she's coming from. BTW, I couldn't get to the video file of the interview using that clip. Do you know how I could get to it? Thanks! Barbara aka bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 05:26:32 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 05:26:32 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100358 "chris" wrote: > After reading Order of the Phoenix, I'm sure a lot of people felt > that Harry and Cho were done for good. But somehow I feel there is > still something unresolved between them. Yes, they went on a date, > but they were never official. Cho had her issues with Cedric and > her jealousy of Hermione to deal with. A lot of people thought that > Cho was a stuck up jerk, but her boyfriend had died. Wouldn't we all > react the same way in that situation? I feel that Cho will still > play a part in Harry's life in the next book, although I'm a little > unsure about book seven. Don't count her out of the picture just > yet. Also, did JK say there was going to be romance in the final > two books? Well, I don't know about book seven, but she definitely alluded to romance in book six. I too, feel that Harry and Cho were unresolved, and could lead to a friendship OR perhaps a reconciliation? Who knows, right? Personally, I thought that she should have healed by relying on her family and her friends for support, not trying to get caught up in another romance. I didn't think she was stuck up at all, I thought that she was hurting, and she didn't know how to go about getting the help/support she needed. "Alia" From ktd7 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 05:51:55 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 05:51:55 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > Snip > > > > No, I don't think we need to go outside Hogwarts quite yet. Save that > > for Book 7. > > > > Carol, > > > > IMO (should be H but I'm still working on that!), the final showdown > has to be at Hogwarts. > I agree with jo... for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that Dumbledore is the wizard whom Voldemort fears the most. Also, we've had all these hints from the sorting hat and from Dumbledore himself. The Sorting Hat says that the houses *must* unite if Hogwarts is to survive. It makes good literary sense for it to be the final battleground. Another thing that makes me think about Hogwarts is what Dumbledore said in CoS, that as long as there are those who are loyal to him at Hogwarts, he won't have truly left. I think something will happen to Dumbledore, but because of the loyalty of people (or beings) still there, he will have influence over the outcome. I think the house elves will play a huge roll in the final showdown. They have very powerful magic, they don't need wands, and they are EXTREMELY loyal to Dumbledore. The war with V. will cover a lot of ground, but it ultimately will come home to Hogwarts. Voldemort considered Hogwarts home as a boy, it makes sense that he would want to return as a "conquerer". Also, Harry considers Hogwarts as his home, it makes sense that he would do everything he could to defend it. Sigh. I have too many theories running around in my head! :-) I LOVED the new movie, too! Karen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 05:57:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 05:57:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: <8c.c20ad10.2de9bfdb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100360 alina at d... asked: > Here's a question though, did Lily and James know that Peter was > made Secret Keeper instead of Sirius? Seems to me their knowledge > isn't a prerequisit of the Secret spell. > Sherrie responded: > Lily might not have known, but James certainly did - it was he who, with Sirius, made the decision to switch to Pettigrew. Carol adds: Their knowledge may not have been a prerequisite of the spell, but it was certainly in their best interests to know about the switch, and common decency and common sense required whoever was casting the charm to inform them of the Secret Keeper's identity if they didn't choose him themselves. And surely if James knew, he would tell his wife, the other person intimately involved and the mother of the child the charm was primarily supposed to protect? (I realize that someone else has quoted canon to indicate that they both knew about the switch, but I wanted to present these arguments anyway just because they seem to me to be self-evident but apparently are not.) More important, someone had to place the complicated Fidelius charm on Peter, and we know that Dumbledore didn't do it. The only other person involved who was particularly skilled at charms was Lily. (James's forte, like Sirius', was transfiguration, and we know that Lupin didn't even know that the Secret Keeper had been changed, much less cast the charm.) So I would guess that Lily not only knew about the charm, she performed it herself, making Peter Secret Keeper after Sirius suggested it and James agreed to it. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 06:13:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:13:05 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100361 Pippin wrote: > It becomes important to know how quickly the transformation > wears off and for that we have no canon. It was noon before > Harry saw Lupin in human form. But we do know that two of the > activities Lupin missed during the year --his class and the > Quidditch game-- took place in the daytime. Carol: He also misses the Christmas Day luncheon where Trelawney mentions that he ran from her offer to read his fortune in a crystal ball. (If he'd been present, there would have been fourteen people instead of thirteen.) Whether he was present for dinner later that day, I don't recall. Carol From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 06:34:28 2004 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:34:28 -0000 Subject: What's up with Cho? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100362 I have a theory about Cho for the next 2 books, based on her past behaviors, friends and Rowling's website. I think Cho is going to do a turncoat thing and betray Harry at some point. Why? 1) Cho (the Seeker for Ravenclaw) has dated the Seekers from two other teams, Cedric from Hufflepuff and Harry from Gryffindor. If this pattern continues, Draco is next. Dating the ringleader of the Slytherin house who just happens to have an incarcerated Death Eater father can't be good. 2) Cho invited Marietta to join her in the DA, and as we all can read from her face, she was the one who betrayed the group to Umbridge. When Harry argued with Cho about Marietta's issues, Cho DEFENDED her. That effectively caused the rift between Harry and Cho. She now has a precedence for backing the wrong side (betrayer's anonymous anyone?). 3) On Rowling's website, the butterfly is an interesting creature. We know that Cho means "butterfly" in both Japanese and Korean. What's interesting about the butterfly on Rowling's site is that during the day it's colored blue with yellow markings (Ravenclaw colors), but at night it's green with silver/grey markings (Slytherin colors). Could this be a clue from Rowling herself that Cho isn't to be trusted? We don't know as of yet if it's possible to change houses once you've been sorted into one, but could it happen? Could Cho decide to change from Ravenclaw to Slytherin her 7th year and actually do it? It might be interesting to see the administrators of Hogwarts take the Sorting Hat's advice and try to foster better relations among the houses. What if they decide to start an exchange student program, where they rotate some students and they live in a different house for a term (or a week, a month, etc)? This might provide some very interesting plot twists as we find out what the "other side" is like from the inside. If this happens, then Cho might be chosen to go to Slytherin and betray Harry and/or the DA. bowlwoman From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 8 06:44:34 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:44:34 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: Dzeytoun: > Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all > of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I > think he was an idiot. > > If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would > have screamed all the way to the courtroom. Geoff: Sorry, I left out a word. It's an "English" (and even "British") male thing. Your last sentence reveals that you are probably from the US. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 8 05:49:46 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:49:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100364 Well, it was all our preacher's fault...he gave Art and me Sorcerer's Stone for Christmas in 1999. This was a really good diversion for two people who ended up very sick with flu and respiratory infections. Art and I inhaled that taped book in three days and I ordered the next two from Amazon in Feb of 2000. Then we were at the local B&N for the Midnight GOF release, have so far very much enjoyed the movies, and the rest is history. I have yet to see POA; I know there are going to be differences, and I'm sure there are a lot of things I'd want to see done or redone. As it is, Art and I have talked about how neat it would have been to see the HP stuff done as TV mini-series so the whole story could be told. We can dream, can't we??? :-) Look, I have yet to see a movie made from a book that is truly perfect. Some may be a bit more true than others, but there are always liberties taken. So, my intent is to view the movies as just that...movies. The truth, to me, is in the books which I love dearly. And I'm awfully glad I found this list! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who wants to hear about that Ravenclaw pin and find a really true-to-form but simple pattern for a Hogwarts robe.) :-) P.S.--any seamstresses, write me off list. Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Tue Jun 8 06:19:32 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100365 Alia: > Well, I don't know about book seven, but she definitely alluded > to romance in book six. I too, feel that Harry and Cho were > unresolved, and could lead to a friendship OR perhaps a > reconciliation? Who knows, right? Personally, I thought that > she should have healed by relying on her family and her friends > for support, not trying to get caught up in another romance. I > didn't think she was stuck up at all, I thought that she was > hurting, and she didn't know how to go about getting the > help/support she needed. It might happen. Everything is possible. But if we work that by the laws of possibility, this scenario has a very slight chance. HP is very different person after the death of SB. We can say that this event is a turning-point. HP is ceased to exist as a child. He is now a hurted man that faces a terrible destiny which is to become a killer. Naive crushes are in the past. Only strong emotional relationships which will relieve his burden can now take place. And that relationships can be forged by the heat of the conflict and pain. He is bound to fight and suffer. Only a woman willing to fight beside him and even sacrifice herself can be his pair. And the only possible two until now are Ginny and Hermione. "paul_terzis" From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 8 07:03:05 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 03:03:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's sense of fun? Message-ID: <147.2b8d8da4.2df6bea9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100366 In a message dated 06/07/2004 11:24:44 AM Central Daylight Time, kawfhw at earthlink.net writes: > . She said she joined a discussion about SpongeBob SquarePants > instead. Interesting! What theories have been been posted in cyberspace that > are have been considered "outlandish" and should we rethink that? > > Faith > Outlandish is in the eye of the beholder. A plot idea could be considered outlandish at one website and yet that same idea posted at another might receive overwhelming praise. I think it basically depends on the site "mentality" so to speak. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aliaware at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 06:19:59 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:19:59 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100367 "dan" wrote: > How many of us, from the books, have the impression that Hogwarts > is a nice place, or tranquil? > > In Rowling, that is to say, the > muggle world is an exaggerated world (at least, through the home > life of the Dursleys), and the magical world is a fair reflection of > all the problems of the real world. That is her inversion. You can't > use magic to be fabulously rich, or to get followers, or to get a > political appointment. You still need to threaten, bribe, cheat and > steal to do that in the magical world. Magic may be part of your > technique, but it doesn't seem there's an incantation to be > fabulously rich. Wizards just have a few more tools - wands, potions > and such - to bribe, cheat, steal and threaten with. Bullies have > different weapons/methods to bully with. > > Perhaps it has something to do with the value placed on self > control. A wizard who loses self control can cause things to happen > just thinking it. (Thank goodness we can't, at least not literally.) > And end up in Azkaban for it. That's fine, if people don't react to > the value placed on self-control by finding other means to acheive > their inner desires. So, there's a premium on good behaviour, > especially where muggles are involved. That being the case, hidden > Hogwarts is like open season on spells and charms not allowed under > usual circumstances. A bit unsettling, I'd say. The trials and > tribulations of high school with portable power devices in everyone's > pocket. Yikes. > > For me, Hogwarts is a place full of menace, jealousy and other > such things, but also of friendship, courage and so forth. But I would > never call it a nice or tranquil place. Even the architecture has traps > (the stair in GOF). Yes, you're right, Dan. I do not think Hogwarts is tranquil--with all those students and creatures? Ha! But there's good and bad everywhere; it's just nature balancing itself out. Now, I think Hogwarts has many more redeeming qualities as a whole. I mean, let's look at the experience: meeting people your age who are just like you- -especially if you're muggle-born or muggle-raised. These young people can find themselves through each other. These lead to possible lifelong relationships. The education received in Hogwarts is quite valuable, to be applied in and out of the classroom. Whatever you want to achieve, you have to put in the work. To become MoM, you have to pay dues, same with becoming an Auror. These are life lessons! I don't think there's anything wrong with self-control being maintained by means of warnings or threats. How else will people know how important it is to keep your cool? As the witch or wizard becomes older, they do learn about political or racial strife, etc., but this is what becoming a part of an existing society where good and evil coincide regularly, is. This just cannot be avoided. With school bullies or other unsavory characters, I think that they strenghten you. Are you going to allow this person to treat you a certain way, or are you going to speak out? Look at Hermione: she slapped Malfoy when he wouldn't shut up. I think that a place like Hogwarts help restores the youth of the WW's integrity. They walk in as naive youngsters and emerge as adults, ready to take their place in the world. And as far as all these "unsettling" aspects of Hogwarts...who is it that uncovers these things? I can think of only one person, whose curiosity seems to get the better of him. One person, who at times, is quite irrational. Harry didn't have to get put in detention with that monster Umbridge, but he couldn't control himself, could he? Not to say Harry isn't the only one, of course. I think that snow15145 was trying to put across the fact that Cuaron took away the essence of our favorite fictional world. We've all become so familiar with Hogwarts, but this time around, it wasn't quite the same on film. But there is more to the WW than just Hogwarts, as we all know now, and that's what the Trio are learning. That's what Cuaron tried to express through this film. But I will not defend Cuaron for too long, simply because he ruined Quidditch. *hisses* Alia, who just can't seem to grasp the non-blabbling thing and hopes she made a shred of sense From yodamarie78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 07:13:35 2004 From: yodamarie78 at yahoo.com (Sara Dockery) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608071335.83425.qmail@web50906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100368 "snow15145" wrote: > Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. > I can understand this feeling, because that is how I feel about > the Books. No matter what is going on in my life reading Harry > Potter just makes me happy, however... dan wrote: > How many of us, from the books, have the impression that Hogwarts > is a nice place, or tranquil? I really liked the new look of Hogwarts, it looks much more like what I'd always pictured. And Dan said this better than I will, but even in PS Hogwarts is a wonderful magical place, but it is a little scary and definately difficult to navigate. There are so many little pitfalls, like "doors that wouldn't open unless you asked politely, or tickled them in exactly the right place, and doors that weren't really doors at all, but solid walls just pretending." (SS American 131-132). And that's just in the first book! Yoda (Who really thinks that the reason she loves the books so much is that she was reading POA for the first time when her husband proposed) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 07:25:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:25:46 -0000 Subject: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... In-Reply-To: <003e01c44614$8a7c2ae0$61570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100369 Eric Oppen wrote > And, come to it---we know _nothing_ about Wizard World burial customs, don't we? I'd not be surprised if they cremated---we know for sure that > people---like, say, a certain inept Dark Lord we all know and, er, > know---can do Bad Things with unprotected corpses and parts thereof. Carol: We know that the Dementors of Azkaban buried the corpse of the supposed Barty Jr. (really Mrs. Crouch) and that a funeral was later staged by Barty Sr. for his wife, "but that grave is empty," as Barty Jr. put it (under the influence of veritaserum). I assume that the grave itself is not empty but contains an empty coffin which the mourners assumed contained the remains of Mrs. Crouch. As for cremation, since the medieval witch burnings were ineffectual (according to Harry's history of magic textbook, one witch actually had herself burned at the stake numerous times because she enjoyed the tickling sensation), maybe cremations wouldn't destroy a witch or wizard's body? Anyway, I get the idea that burial is the usual method of dealing with the dead in the WW. Just a (rather grim) thought, to borrow and alter Steve (bboy_mn)'s signature. Carol From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 8 08:46:59 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 04:46:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: <1ec.22657c04.2df6d703@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100370 In a message dated 6/8/2004 12:26:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KuteJCLuvr at aol.com writes: Alia wrote: > Yes! I was wondering this myself! Do you HAVE to be pure-blooded to > be in Slytherin, or just very ambitious? I don't think a non-pure-blooded wizard in Slytherin would have any friends and the pure-blood families tend to know most, if not all of the other pure-blooded families. I think it's highly unlikely, but I guess anythig's possible. =============== Sherrie here: Yet according to JKR's character notes, Millicent Bulstrode is a half-blood. She doesn't appear to be treated any differently than the other Slytherins - she's even part of the Inquisitorial Squad in OotP. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue Jun 8 07:24:37 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:24:37 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100371 vmonte: I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie scenario.) Here my point -- Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year old). He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the rubble. Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his death. vmonte - Remember I said it was a dream. Don't attack me for not stating cannon evidence. vmonte Jospehine now: Dream or not I actually really like this idea! It would be a twist on the whole idea we have of what really happened at Godric's Hollow... Time travel has appeared once, why not again!? JKR does like to be clever and complex with her stories, and I am expecting the time turners seen in the MOM to reappear. ... hmmm interesting. Jo From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 8 10:09:10 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:09:10 -0000 Subject: What's up with Cho? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > I have a theory about Cho for the next 2 books, based on her past > behaviors, friends and Rowling's website. > > I think Cho is going to do a turncoat thing and betray Harry at some > point. Why? > > 1) Cho (the Seeker for Ravenclaw) has dated the Seekers from two > other teams, Cedric from Hufflepuff and Harry from Gryffindor. If > this pattern continues, Draco is next. Dating the ringleader of the > Slytherin house who just happens to have an incarcerated Death Eater > father can't be good. > > 2) Cho invited Marietta to join her in the DA, and as we all can read > from her face, she was the one who betrayed the group to Umbridge. > When Harry argued with Cho about Marietta's issues, Cho DEFENDED her. > That effectively caused the rift between Harry and Cho. She now has a > precedence for backing the wrong side (betrayer's anonymous anyone?). > > 3) On Rowling's website, the butterfly is an interesting creature. We > know that Cho means "butterfly" in both Japanese and Korean. What's > interesting about the butterfly on Rowling's site is that during the > day it's colored blue with yellow markings (Ravenclaw colors), but at > night it's green with silver/grey markings (Slytherin colors). Could > this be a clue from Rowling herself that Cho isn't to be trusted? We > don't know as of yet if it's possible to change houses once you've > been sorted into one, but could it happen? Could Cho decide to change > from Ravenclaw to Slytherin her 7th year and actually do it? > > It might be interesting to see the administrators of Hogwarts take > the Sorting Hat's advice and try to foster better relations among the > houses. What if they decide to start an exchange student program, > where they rotate some students and they live in a different house > for a term (or a week, a month, etc)? This might provide some very > interesting plot twists as we find out what the "other side" is like > from the inside. If this happens, then Cho might be chosen to go to > Slytherin and betray Harry and/or the DA. > > bowlwoman I love the dating Draco idea, it rocks! I would like to add to this theory and say Cho, the betrayer, will come to a sticky end (probably inadvertently by Harry's hand, although this is based on a different theory that Harry is going to do something very bad in the next book). I believe Cho is for the chop because of the form her patronus takes - a swan. In mythology spirits of the dead may visit mortals in the form of a swan, also swans mate for life. So the patronus is a reference to Cedric and an indication that they belong together and therefore she is going to have to join him!!! Jo ;-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 8 10:19:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:19:26 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100373 > Potioncat stated: snip > Along the same line, Aunt Marge is floating out doors with her > undergarments in view as well, much like the Muggles in GoF. So the > audience is laughing at these two scenes, but should be shocked at > the canon episodes.....I'm not sure how that is going to play." > > > Kyntor replies: > > JKR could be trying tell us something with this scene. Maybe she is > trying to say that we are taking the scene between Snape and James > too seriously. Potioncat: Sorry, I wasn't very clear. How Marge is shown in the movie is different than the book. And having her floating in the air was very similar in the movie to the Muggle baiting in GoF. The audience found both Marge and Crabbe/Goyle funny...but when similar things happen in the books, they are not funny. Potioncat From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 8 10:46:46 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:46:46 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C625B6.29379.903610@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100374 On 8 Jun 2004 at 1:14, dzeytoun wrote: > > > Geoff: > > Because it's a male thing. We often don't complain because (1) we > > don't want to be called wimps (2) we don't want to let the ****** > > doing this think they're getting to us (3) we're going to grit our > > teeth and get through this. > > > > I may be of somewhat more advanced years than Harry but I can see > > precisely where he's coming from. > > Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all > of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I > think he was an idiot. > > If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would > have screamed all the way to the courtroom. I've seen Geoff's response - and frankly, my attitudes is pretty similar to his on this - what he describes is pretty much how I'd have been likely to act as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if Harry did it. And I think with Harry, you've also got a couple of other issues going on. Thje first is that Harry has had to deal with rotten behaviour all his life from the Dursleys - whether it's technically abuse or not, he's been ill treated and he was pretty much powerless for the until he went to Hogwarts to deal with it. I can relate to that personally because of my things in my own childhood - and in such cases, it's quite natural to come to fight it in the only way you have - and that is often pretty much what Geoff described - don't let them see they've hurt you. When you haven't got any other power - well that can seem like all you can do. The second - and again, I can relate to this very much from my own life because when I was 13 I wound up in a school which my feelings towards are very much like Harry's seem to be towards Hogwarts - is... now, how do I put this. Hogwarts is Harry's sanctuary. It's his home. It's the place he has been able to escape his awful life with the Dursley's it's the place where he is happy. This can engender an *incredible* loyalty in a child. Hogwarts is Harry's idea of heaven on earth, to a great extent. When you're in that situation - when so much of your happiness is tied up in your belief in a *place* - well, you don't want to admit there's something seriously wrong with it, and you're prepared to forgive an awful lot. You're also prepared to accept the bad with the good. I wonder if Harry subconsciously feels that 'Hogwarts has been a great place up til now, and I've taken advantage of that. It's be really ungrateful of me to refuse to accept the dark side of this as well.' There's other issues involved as well - he may also be very tied up because - well, he does rely on people like Dumbledore and McGonnagal, on many levels. He hasn't the sceurity of a good home life - these people are his security in many ways. And when you're in that situation, you may not want to push things. He may be worried, consciously or unconsciously, that if he (for example) tells McGonnagal, what is going on - she won't do anything. That would be pretty devastating - and rather than risk the chance that she wouldn't do anything, he may very well be prepared to not put it to the test. He may also understand on some level that putting McGonnagal into conflict with Umbridge wouldn't really help matters. He could believe she'd take a stand - but also feel she'd lose - and that would harm her, without helping him. In such a situation, it makes no sense to tell. Is Harry an idiot for not telling McGonnagal? In my opinion, yes, he is. But that's not unrealistic at all. I put up with abuse at school that left me clinically depressed for a decade, on a couple of occasions very close to suicide or even homicide, and attacks that left me requiring hospitalisation. And if I had asked for help - I had plenty of it available to me - my parents would have done anything - and I mean that, when they found out what was going on on occasion, they did *everything* they could - in fact, it's not going too far to say that my father died because of his efforts to help me. I had teachers who would have moved mountains for me as well. Help would have been available if I'd only *asked*. I was an idiot. Kids *are* sometimes. Yes, I think Harry is an idiot for not asking for help - but I know plenty of kids and I was one of them who have been just as idiotic. It's not uncommon, unfortunately. And I had reasons - the ideas I've described above that might effect Harry - well, those are based on my own experiences - they weren't *good* reasons - I can see that as an adult - but they seemed like good reasons to me until I was nearly 16 years old. It took my father's death to make me see sense. Maybe Harry will get the idea from the loss of Sirius... I'd love to think so personally. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 10:57:49 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 03:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608105749.64337.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100375 > Well, I wanted NOTHING to do with HP (all the media > buzz turned me > off), but I saw SS on HBO, and I was amazed at how > cute the film > was! I wasn't even aware of the media buzz until I saw something on the news about people lined up to buy GOF. I saw the previews for the SS but was completely unimpressed. A friend at school told me how good the books were. I asked another friend to get me SS for Christmas. I read it. I ordered book 2. Then I read books 3 and 4 (didn't purchase GOF til it was in paperback). Then I saw the first movie (wasn't too interested in seeing it). Was very unimpressed (though each movie has gotten better). I'm not sure if it was before or after that that I found HPfGU and the SugarQuill. But now I'm hooked, even if I'm not so good at theorizing like othrers. Got OOTP at midnight; started reading at 1:00, finished at 5:30. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 11:49:15 2004 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:49:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100376 paul_terzis wrote: > Naive crushes are in the past. Only strong emotional > relationships which will relieve his burden can now take place. > And that relationships can be forged by the heat of the conflict > and pain. He is bound to fight and suffer. Only a woman willing to > fight beside him and even sacrifice herself can be his pair. And > the only possible two until now are Ginny and Hermione. M.E. responds: I think Paul is spot on regarding Harry's infatuation with Cho. That's what it was, a teenage infatuation with a pretty girl. He didn't know her, and as he came to know her the romantic interest faltered. Now I'll grant that what was said regarding Cho's emtional state and personal history needs to be taken into account. And I'll even posit that her defence of Marietta could be argued to be no less an example of loyalty than what the Trio exhibits. Nonetheless, I don't see any further developments re Harry/Cho. On the other hand, a Harry/Luna ship might be possible. Yes, I was of the first to argue for a Ron/Luna ship, but having just finished reading OoP again, and particularly noting Harry's last exchange with Luna and that Luna -- along with Neville and Ginny -- now seem permanently set as the new 'group', I think it could be possible. Of course, the b/g line up, if pairings are to be foreshadowed by the final Hogwarts Express scene, would have to be either Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, and Neville/Luna or Harry/Hermione, Ron/Luna and Neville/Ginny -- the other permutation just wouldn't, go now would it? So there might still be hope for the King Ron/Queen Luna ship after all, eh? M.E. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 8 12:00:25 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:00:25 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100377 snip > > > Mel: > We obviously know Lupin knew Lily, but his comments about > her 'finding the beauty in someone who couldn't find it in > themselves' is the very first thing that springs to mind. I'm no > follower of LOLLIPOPS but I can see how this might lend more > credence to Kneasy's "Aggie" theory (which I find much more > persauasive especially now). > Snip What is this Aggie theory can't find it fantastic posts.... > > I found it VERY interesting that any mention of Harry hearing James > was missing. I never thought the voice he heard in the book was that > of James, I wonder if the film has inadvertently made that clearer-- > as in the 'flashback scene' in the first film not showing James at > all. Jame's actual presence at Godric's Hollow at the moment of VD's > destruction is becoming less and less obvious. > > > Mel Is the voice Snape perhaps? Jo From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 12:15:12 2004 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:15:12 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gift_lady" wrote: > > Has anyone thought that Harry may be the final DADA instructor after > graduation from Hogwarts? He's already shown he can teach in OotP. I > know he told McGonagall he'd like to be an auror, and he's discussed > it with Ron and Hermione, but maybe after all is said and done > Dumbledore will ask him to stay on to teach. > > Christina in GA (USA) I've thought this and posted this theory. I think it's a likely scenario but I also could see Harry becoming an Auror first then coming back to take the DADA position. From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 12:15:17 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:15:17 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of Differences (spoile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: mad_maxime [mailto:mad_maxime at h...] > Here's the link to the USA Today article - >http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm > > HPANA also has a link to a video version of the interview. You can > check that out here - http://www.hpana.com/news.18158.html<<< > Barbara wrote: > BTW, I couldn't get to the video file of the interview using that > clip. Do you know how I could get to it? Thanks! > > Barbara > aka bd-bear > http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ Max replies: Sorry, that's the only link I know of. It doesn't work for me now either. You might try looking through TLC archives for around the same date. I'm certain that they posted a link as well. Max From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 12:22:30 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:22:30 -0000 Subject: What's up with Cho? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100380 Jo wrote: > I believe Cho is for the chop because of the form her patronus takes - > a swan. In mythology spirits of the dead may visit mortals in the form > of a swan, also swans mate for life. So the patronus is a reference to > Cedric and an indication that they belong together and therefore she > is going to have to join him!!! > > Jo ;-) Now Meri: I always thought that the swan had more to do with Cho's temperament. In real life swans are beautiful but viscious animals, nice to look at from far away but mean and nasty up close. So maybe this supports the theory that she will betray Harry. Meri From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 8 12:38:38 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:38:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of ... Message-ID: <74.3d42385d.2df70d4e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100381 In a message dated 06/07/2004 2:16:27 PM Central Daylight Time, nkafkafi at yahoo.com writes: > Neri: > Can someone please post the exact quote of JKR, what exactly did she > say about things in the movie foreshadowing the books? Or direct me > to the post that already quoted her? I have a suspicion that this > whole thing of looking for clues in the movie is another case of > misquoting JKR, or quoting her out of context. > > Neri Nope its not out of context at all. Here's the direct quote AND a link to the article in USA Today. USATODAY.com - New 'Potter' movie sneaks in spoilers for upcoming books or http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm JKR: "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling says in an interview released by Warner Bros., which is distributing the movie. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 12:45:15 2004 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:45:15 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: <20040608071335.83425.qmail@web50906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sara Dockery wrote: >> > I really liked the new look of Hogwarts, it looks much more like what I'd always pictured. And Dan said this better than I will, but even in PS Hogwarts is a wonderful magical place, but it is a little scary and definately difficult to navigate. There are so many little pitfalls, like "doors that wouldn't open unless you asked politely, or tickled them in exactly the right place, and doors that weren't really doors at all, but solid walls just pretending." (SS American 131-132). And that's just in the first book! > > Yoda (Who really thinks that the reason she loves the books so much is that she was reading POA for the first time when her husband proposed) JJPandy's response: I liked the new Hogwarts and the outdoorsiness of the POA movie. I loved how magic was just there and not everyone stood around and gawked like they were so amazed at everything that happened. (I loved how the Whomping Willow's change of season was not really witnessed by any of the characters.) Harry is now accustomed to being in this wizard world once he is away from the Dursleys. No need to stare in wonder when a "painting" asks you not to interrupt its sleep with a bright light. People get upset over changes in the book too. I remember hearing people complain about the "new" angry Harry in OotP (maybe not on this message board, but definitely on the local radio and in newspapers). Some people couldn't handle the fact that Harry was growing up in these books and not being forever trapped as an 11 year old. JKR handles Harry's growing up well -he is realistic to me- and so did the POA movie. JJPandy (who loves that Harry FINALLY has messy hair all the time in a movie) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 12:49:41 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:49:41 -0000 Subject: What's up with Cho? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > I have a theory about Cho for the next 2 books, based on her past > behaviors, friends and Rowling's website. > > I think Cho is going to do a turncoat thing and betray Harry at some > point. Why? One important thing to remember is that Cho will be graduating and (presumably) leaving Hogwarts at the end of Book Six. So any climactic betrayal (or non-betrayal) of Harry in Book Seven will have to be done from outside of Hogwarts. - CMC From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 8 13:08:04 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 07:08:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c44d59$a36686d0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100384 Geoff wrote: > Interestingly, my experience is rather the reverse. As I have said > previously, I stupidly allowed my judgment to be dictated by > members of my church who were anti-Potter so I didn't read the > books. > Then, at the end of 2002, when COS appeared in the cinemas, I was > staying with my wife in Cardiff at a friend's house. Often, if we > are at a loose end in an evening, the question is put "What's on in > Barry at the cinema?" Answer - HP2. Did I want to go and see it? > Shrug of shoulders - why not? So I went and enjoyed it and, a day or > so later, watched PS on Sky Box Office at our friend's place. I was > hooked. I returned to my rural retreat, purchased the books and > rapidly bought the other two (this is pre-OOTP of course) and the > rest is history. > That is how a pedantic, canon-obsessed, retired Computer teacher > arrived on HPFGU. Blame the films! Sherry This might sound crazy, but I had not even heard of the books till a little before the 3rd one was released. I don't know how I missed all the stir and talk. Then I was visiting a friend, and he said he had a friend who was a school librarian, and she had recommended he read this book called HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE. He asked if I would like to read it with him. We are both blind, and he had the "talking book" version, a US Library of Congress library program for the blind. The books are not the same recordings as commercial audio. But anyway, I said something to the effect of why would I want to read a book with a name like that! Well, he told me his friend highly recommended them, so somewhat reluctantly, I agreed. The laugh was on me, because guess who became the ardent HP fan! I went out and immediately bought both of the first two books on commercial audio and could hardly wait for number three. Suddenly, I was hearing about Harry Potter all over. How had I missed him before? Now I have all five books in braille and on commercial audio, read by Jim Dale. i've heard raves over the other recording, the UK version, and I'd like to get those, too! Sherry G, who enjoys hearing how we all got hooked! From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 13:17:45 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:17:45 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dan" wrote: > "snow15145" wrote: Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. When you're tired and just want to escape to a magical world you could visually go there via the movies.... >Dan: Hogwarts is a place with bullies and bigots (Slytherin, Ravenclaw to Luna), nasty (Snape), evil (Lockhart - seriously debilitating charms, Umbridge - torture) or even murderous (Quirrell, Lupin?!?!) teachers, inept, dangerous politicians and bureaucrats (Fudge, Percy), children of radical racial purists, collapsed secret tunnels (the one behind the mirror), deadly hidden chambers (COS), nearly unusable washrooms (the girl's washroom where Myrtle hangs out), a poltergeist who delights in breaking stuff, throwing things at students and practising the insult of the day. Entropy: Well, I think this has to be looked upon on two levels. Firstly, I believe Snow is referring to the readers'/viewers' perspective. For me, Hogwarts and the entire Potterverse are nice places to visit. Living in the "real" world can be a bit much sometimes, and visiting Harry's world, whether through books or movies, is always a wonderful way to transcend everyday life. The world that JKR has created has always been, for me, a world that's bigger than life, a world of rich leather, golden things (like snitches and Dumbledore's instruments), and warm, fuzzy socks. In my opinion, the first two movies reflected the "spirit" of the books not because they followed them to the letter, but because they caught this warmth perfectly. The third movie was, for me, a big disappointment, not because "immobulus" stops the whomping willow or Flitwick looks funny, but because it hasn't captured the beauty of the books. Hogwarts has become crumbly, Dumbledore needs a bath, and the Great Hall doesn't take my breath away. I could be very wrong, but I don't think that's what JKR had in mind. Secondly, there is (sorry, not trying to put words in your mouth) Dan's perspective of Hogwarts being a scary place for Harry. And, yes, I agree that the place is full of scary spiders , ghosts, three-headed dogs, murderous villians, and really snarky potions masters. But, by the same token, Privet Drive is a place full of bullying uncles, spiteful aunts, and cousins who enjoy dunking your head in the toilet. What's the difference? Harry's power. Not magical power necessarily, but his power to affect his surroundings. At Privet Drive, he is friendless, hopeless, and powerless. He lives, figuritively and literally, locked up. He is at the mercy of the whims of those around him. At Hogwarts, however, Harry has people who love him. He has his friends and the Weasleys, the professors, and Dumbledore. And he has a growing sense of his own power. Hogwarts may be a dangerous place, but it's the first place Harry's ever been where he's had any happiness or security because it's the first place he's had a sense of hope for his future. :: Entropy :: From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 8 13:33:05 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:33:05 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of ... In-Reply-To: <74.3d42385d.2df70d4e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100386 Melissa wrote: > > > Nope its not out of context at all. Here's the direct quote AND a link to > the article in USA Today. > > USATODAY.com - New 'Potter' movie sneaks in spoilers for upcoming books > > or > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie- book_x.htm > > > JKR: "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I > thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put > in deliberately as clues," Rowling says in an interview released by Warner > Bros., which is distributing the movie. Potioncat: Unfortunately, JKR's quote was split and it is almost impossible to know what she means by "those things." The article is saying that Cuaron had a good intuition and put something in the movie that will appear to have been a clue when we read the later books. I wish they had worked her quote better and I wonder if she said anything similar to any of the other many interviewers? I guess what I'm trying to say, is it could be dialogue or images or characters or something in the scenery. I'm sure that by week's end, HPfGU will have a viable theory for every moment in the movie. What may happen too, is that by the time we've had a year to discuss it, the book will come out and we'll say, "It THAT what she meant!" I think it would be neat if it had something to do with that great scene of the boys eating candy and making animal noises! Potioncat who doesn't want to get caught up in this, but will anyway. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 8 13:43:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:43:28 -0000 Subject: Flitwick canon and movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100387 One of the comments that comes up is that Flitwick is very different in this movie than he was in books or previous movies. I don't think Flitwick is in the movie at all. Warwick Davis is playing a different wizard. Here's a site for IMDB. Does anyone know if he is credited as Flitwick on any other cast listing? http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0304141/ Potioncat From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 8 13:48:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:48:12 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100388 Geoff: To keep the post length down, I have snipped Iris' post completely.It was difficult to select sections and is easier if other group members read it in full at message 100316. I read Iris' post with great interest and found it thought-provoking and very well expounded. It echoes thoughts which have been expressed on the group in the past and also supports much of the way I view the matter from a Christian perspective. Genesis 4:15 is rather vague in referring to the mark which Cain received. The teaching Bible which I am using gives me a cross-reference to Ezekiel where a mark is placed on the forehead of those who detest the wrong things being done; this apparently looked like an "x" but it is a different situation and may not be the same as that given to Cain because this is a saving mark, not a mark of condemnation. It is interesting of course that, if Eve had not succumbed to temptation, the initial perfection of God's creation would have been maintained and the need for Him to come in human form as Jesus to redeem the world would not have arisen. However, this is one of the risks of free-will. If we were only able to follow the laws of God and were unable to choose otherwise, if God did not allow us to take risks which might harm us (I say this having spent last week mountain walking in the Yorkshire Dales!) then we would be little more than robots. We have been given the gift of free-will to choose which way we go in our lives and therein lies an inherent element of risk. I obviously believe that Christian teaching shows us *the* way to go. However, other people will doubtless disagree with me but because they make different choices does not mean that they are evil in any way. What leads to evil is when a person uses their ability of free- will to be selfish, to seek self-aggrandisement and to seek unwarranted power over other people and situations. This is the path which Voldemort has chosen and, as a result, has become unable to see any other point of view. I have, in the past, commented on LOTR where Gandalf, in the last volume, points out that it would never even enter Sauron's imagination to think that someone would seek to destroy the Ring to rid the world of its power and evil. He can only conceive of another Dark Lord rising to challenge him. This is where, hopefully, we can all compare ourselves to Harry. We too are trying to make our way through life in such a way that we have a satisfying life style which also is beneficial to others. We, like Harry, have the same ability to make good choices or to mess up. However, Harry has before him an example of how not to do it in the shape of Quirrell's mantra "There is no good and evil, there is only power " (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.211 UK edition). We see Voldemort living parasitically in Quirrell, living a half-life on unicorn blood and yet still claiming what a marvellous guy he is going to be. And Harry also knows that he has made decisions which have been both good for himself and for the Wizarding World. It takes us back to Dumbledore's "It is our choices, Harry, that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (COS "Dobby's reward" p.245 UK edition). Yes indeed, Iris, I couldn't agree more. Though, there are really two marked men; Harry who like the folk in Ezekiel is marked because he acted (unknowingly as a child) in the cause of right. The other marked man is Voldemort who has marked himself by flying in the face of everything that would have made him a normal, feeling, warm human being and, in so doing, has in my opinion made himself virtually unredeemable. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 8 14:05:59 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:05:59 -0000 Subject: The Real Hogarts. was: The Movie vs. JKR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100389 > Snow-who wrote: > Hogwarts was like a comfortable old shoe; it fit well. When you're > tired and just want to escape to a magical world you could visually > go there via the movies. Waiting for the POA movie to come out was > much like becoming Harry anticipating leaving the Dursley's but when you finally, with much anticipation, got off the Hogwarts Express you found that everything was changed. (Change can be good when it is smoothly introduced, just like in the books, things change but at a growing pace not at a dramatic one.) What the heck happened, did Voldemort come and take over Hogwart's over the summer. No It was just the new director. The new director didn't just clean house he changed the house, the grounds, the lake, the quiddich match and even some of the characters that we knew like Professor Flitwick. But most of all he changed forever that almost tranquil non-existing world of refuge into a real non-existing world. He took the magicalness (new word means beyond magic) out of the magic. Mandy here: (trying to pull this back on topic) I have to disagree. Hogwarts is not and never was a Disney World castle. Too clean, too light, too bright, and far too happy. It is a 1000-year-old Scottish castle with a rich dramatic, turbulent history. It's walls are filled with fierce magic, both goods and bad, it practically a living entity, and, in the words of Trelawney in the film, 'it's aura is pulsing.' To see Hogwarts as an escape alone, is precisely what 11 and 12 year old Harry sees in the innocence of the first too stories (books as well as movies). But we, Harry and us, are growing up! PoA (book and film) saw the pulling of Harry Potter into adolescence and teenage fury with a huge emotional bang that makes PoA (the book) still the most popular of the series. It marked not only the growth of Harry Potter, but the growth of the HP saga, from children's stories into literature for all ages and all times. I don't agree that it was a slow transition, Harry is having to grow up faster then all those around him. Harry finds Hogwarts to be his true home, all warm and fuzzy, because it is all he's got. (Back to the film for a minute: Sirius also makes the comment to Harry that he also sees Hogwarts as beautiful and remembered the first time he walked through the front door, but that is because of what Sirius was coming from, a family filled with rage and hate that Sirius couldn't wait to escape from also.) It is what the individual finds inside that makes it beautiful. From an aesthetic point of view anyone who had been to a castle knows how cold, hard and unforgiving they are. I think people tend to forget that Hogwarts is a boarding school, not an adventure playground painted in bright primary colours. Sure adventure can be had in school, no doubt, but the primary focus of a school is education. Rules and discipline abound. Strict law of status and hierarchy between teachers and students must be maintained. Homework and study must be completed. It is not all play, fun and laughter, but hard work, heart ache and discipline. The books show us the world is changing around Harry, as Harry himself is changing, as he is growing up. And the PoA movie reflects that perceived alienation teenagers carry around with them beautifully. Harry is beginning to feel that he truly is different from not only the Durslys, but all those around him including his friends. He carries secrets and horrors no one else can ever understand, and like all teens he is beginning to realize that the world doesn't revolve around him, even though he has an undisputed important role to play in it. Everything is beginning to look dark, angry and mean. Don't forget we see the Potterverse through Harry eyes and they're eyes that are starting to get, in PoA, resentful and selfish. I'm very happy to finally see a version of Howarts that is closer to my vision of the school. Cheers Mandy, who loves and chooses to live in New York City because it is the only place I ever felt at home, but it's a hell of a place to live. Dirty, loud, aggressive, fierce and will beat you down faster than any place on earth. But I love it. To me, New York is beautiful. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 8 14:14:37 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:14:37 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100390 > vmonte: > Here my point -- > Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year old). > He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there > but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed > there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because > Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the rubble. Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his death. > Jospehine wrote: > Dream or not I actually really like this idea! It would be a twist on the whole idea we have of what really happened at Godric's Hollow... > Time travel has appeared once, why not again!? JKR does like to be > clever and complex with her stories, and I am expecting the time > turners seen in the MOM to reappear. Mandy here: I too like it, and would like to add the idea that perhaps James wasn't there at all, it was TimeTurner/Harry? Could James have been killed elsewhere? Was that why Lupin was surprised to here Harry could hear James' voice? It could add to Sirius and Remus guilt if they thought that their best friends wife and child were somehow left alone to deal with LV. and, as you say vmonte it would explane Snapes reluctant need to keep Harry alive. Just some random thoughts, Mandy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 8 14:32:57 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:32:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100391 After reading Order of the Phoenix, I'm sure a lot of people felt that Harry and Cho were done for good. But somehow I feel there is still something unresolved between them. Yes, they went on a date, but they were never official. Cho had her issues with Cedric and her jealousy of Hermione to deal with. A lot of people thought that Cho was a stuck up jerk, but her boyfriend had died. Wouldn't we all react the same way in that situation? I feel that Cho will still play a part in Harry's life in the next book, although I'm a little unsure about book seven. Don't count her out of the picture just yet. Also, did JK say there was going to be romance in the final two books? Gina: Not to start another HUGE shipping war because even the loyal H/H shipper I am did see the R/Hr clues in the movie, but going on the books Krum was jealous of Harry NOT Ron! He said all Hermione talked about was Harry and after being pulled from the lake she shrugged Krum off to talk to Harry. On the same line Cho is jealous of Hermione! I am placing my bet now that Ron and Harry have not had their last big argument and it is going to be over Hermione this time! Gina who loves the whole series! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 8 14:33:05 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:33:05 -0000 Subject: Possibly OT but (Lightning Bolt) In-Reply-To: <005e01c44d0a$d523a030$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100392 > Littlekat wrote: > What does a lightning bolt look like? I am absolutely clueless! Total blindness doth have its price. Mandy here: Humm, how to explain a lighting bolt? I was going to say it looks just like the letter Z, but if you're total blind I can't imagine that would help either would it? Harry scar is a zig zag shape. Three short diagonal lines. The first line starting upper left going down to the lower right, the second line connecting at the bottom of the first and going down to the lower left again, and the third line connecting with the bottom of the second line going to the lower right again. Does that help? Cheers Mandy From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jun 8 14:42:10 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:42:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possibly OT but (Lightning Bolt) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C5D042.7090004@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100393 >>Littlekat wrote: >>What does a lightning bolt look like? I am absolutely clueless! > > Total blindness doth have its price. Angles like a dog leg. Think of one leg on top of the 2nd, the 2nd being reversed or going in the opposite direction. Jem From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 14:44:23 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:44:23 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of Differences (spoile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: mad_maxime [mailto:mad_maxime at h...] > > Here's the link to the USA Today article - > http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm > > HPANA also has a link to a video version of the interview. You can > check that out here - http://www.hpana.com/news.18158.html > Barbara wrote: > BTW, I couldn't get to the video file of the interview using that > clip. Do you know how I could get to it? Thanks! > > Barbara > aka bd-bear > http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ Max replies: Disregard my last post. I was able to locate the video on Reuters - http://reuters.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?st=1086704321937&rf=bm&mp=WMP&wmp=1&rm=1&cpf=true&fr=052404_123248_872380xfcb08f1c98x46c8&rdm=429031.6092421277#frtop Click on archives and look for 'Rowling: Azkaban May Be Best Yet'/ May 31st, 2004. You'll see a thumbnail with a picture of JKR, so it's easy to spot. The video includes the entire interview from which the quotes were taken. Max From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 14:56:45 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:56:45 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > Potioncat: > Unfortunately, JKR's quote was split and it is almost impossible to > know what she means by "those things." The article is saying that > Cuaron had a good intuition and put something in the movie that will > appear to have been a clue when we read the later books. I wish they > had worked her quote better and I wonder if she said anything > similar to any of the other many interviewers? > > I guess what I'm trying to say, is it could be dialogue or images or > characters or something in the scenery. I'm sure that by week's > end, HPfGU will have a viable theory for every moment in the movie. > What may happen too, is that by the time we've had a year to discuss > it, the book will come out and we'll say, "It THAT what she meant!" > > I think it would be neat if it had something to do with that great > scene of the boys eating candy and making animal noises! > > Potioncat who doesn't want to get caught up in this, but will anyway. Max replies: Potioncat, check out this Routers link if you want to see the full interview on video. http://reuters.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?st=1086706312015&rf=bm&mp=WMP&wmp=1&rm=1&cpf=true&fr=052404_123248_872380xfcb08f1c98x46c8&rdm=434705.1092752074#frtop Look for the thumbnail of JKR under "Entertainment' in the archive. The title is 'Rowling: Azkaban May Be Best Yet'/ May 31st, 2004. Max From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue Jun 8 14:01:58 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:01:58 -0000 Subject: Moonlighting syndrome Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100396 So, Snape/Harry again. What the most of us would want, it's a truce/friendship/familial relationship between Harry and Snape. I think it'll happen in the last months of the last year, because it's how it's work. I explain: In the TV series, it exist the 'Moonlighting syndrome'. Moonlighting was a serie with Bruce Willis. The two protagonists had the usual relationship between a man and a woman in the TV, films...it's to say, not very friendly. Just enough to wish more, like every shipper. When it happened, the serie wasn't interesting anymore. The fights between them was the fun in the show, not how they'll manage to be friends or more. Now, in the new series, they try to avoid this 'syndrome', in holding the 'chemistry', the ship, without sinking it . Mulder/Scully, Lo?s and Clark was an failure, Sydney/Vaunght (Alias) a success. If Snape and Harry were friends now, if they'd stop to provoke each other, should it be still interesting? Maybe Jo didn't change anything (visibly) after/during OOTP because it'll kill the spark ? Imagine, Snape [insert fanfic clich? of your choice] and end to be nice with Harry. Harry, happy to have a new father figure, begin to [insert another clich?] in the beginning of the 6th book. Won't you think that the books would lost something ? Christelle. From grianne2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 15:08:09 2004 From: grianne2 at yahoo.com (Annalisa Moretti) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:08:09 -0000 Subject: Why do you look for clues in the movie? was: POA List of ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Unfortunately, JKR's quote was split and it is almost impossible to > know what she means by "those things." The article is saying that > Cuaron had a good intuition and put something in the movie that will > appear to have been a clue when we read the later books. I wish they > had worked her quote better and I wonder if she said anything > similar to any of the other many interviewers? Actually, as I believe someone posted, you can actually see video of her saying this. On Reuters, I believe. > I guess what I'm trying to say, is it could be dialogue or images or > characters or something in the scenery. I'm sure that by week's > end, HPfGU will have a viable theory for every moment in the movie. > What may happen too, is that by the time we've had a year to discuss > it, the book will come out and we'll say, "It THAT what she meant!" I honestly think it is something visual, or improvised, and not something that was in the script. First of all, because she attributes it soley to Cuaron, and not to Kloves. Furthermore, she would have known what was in the script some time ago, and not have been surprised by seeing it onscreen. My own candidates: 1) The face in the crystal ball, which may point either to some kind of way of contacting Sirius, or some use of Sirius' mirror for something else entirely. 2) Snape protecting the kids from the werewolf. 3) R/Hr. -- Annalisa From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 8 14:24:47 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (gift_lady) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:24:47 -0000 Subject: McGonagall, Harry, Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Whichever way you look at it, what could McGonagall really have done? Not a > whole lot. She could have told Dumbledore who could tell Fudge that his "High Inquisitor" cannot treat students this way. I wonder if Fudge really knew what she was up to. Even if Harry didn't tell McGonagall Hermione could have. She told her about the new broom in book 4. I know the teachers did what they could to stand up to her, I just feel that more could have been done. Christina in GA From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 8 14:38:10 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (gift_lady) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:38:10 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100399 Arya writes --------Hmm, you've got me thinking now.... Say Harry goes back in time and ends up defeating Voldemort for good before any Potters are killed and changes his own timeline so that he grows up completely normal, with both parents and in a world free of Voldemort (and without a scar)? --------------- But if our adult Harry goes back to save Baby Harry and his parents and they are saved then there is no reason for that adult Harry to go back and save his parents. He would never have lived with the Dursley's, he wouldn't be the same person. There is the problem with time travel. If we wanted to go back and kill Hitler before his rise to power and we did that then in the future there would be no reason to go back and kill Hitler. It creates a paradox. Christina in GA From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 8 15:14:27 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:14:27 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dan" wrote: >In Rowling, that is to say, the muggle world is an exaggerated world (at least, through the home life of the Dursleys), and the magical world is a fair reflection of all the problems of the real world. That is her inversion. < Petunia and Vernon have done their best to pretend that Privet Drive is a fairy tale world--a great, good place where good children, ie Dudley, are never punished, you can watch TV and play video games as much as you like, and eat whenever you care to, everything is always clean, the lawn and garden are kept bright in defiance of law and nature, the scut work is done by an invisible servant (Harry), and scandal only happens to other people. We see the cost, first to Harry but also to the Dursleys themselves, of maintaining such an illusion. But Hogwarts, even in Book One, was never like that. The Gryffindor common room with its shabby armchairs was never the tapestry-clad wonder that we saw in the movie. The innocent suffered and died. And for all the romance of its towers and turrets, the castle is and always has been a fortress and a tool of war, its corridors booby-trapped and its animated suits of armor standing vigil in the halls. Pippin From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 15:16:08 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:16:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:McGonagall, Harry, Umbridge References: Message-ID: <003901c44d6b$89224360$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100401 > She could have told Dumbledore who could tell Fudge that his "High > Inquisitor" cannot treat students this way. I wonder if Fudge really > knew what she was up to. Even if Harry didn't tell McGonagall > Hermione could have. She told her about the new broom in book 4. I > know the teachers did what they could to stand up to her, I just feel > that more could have been done. > > Christina in GA > Something tells me that even if word of Umbridge's behaviour got to Fudge, he'd find a way not to hear it. In GOF, during the World Cup, when Malfoys arrive in the top box, Lucius insults the Weasleys, asking Arthur what he had to sell to get seats, surely the Weasley house wouldn't have fetched enough. Fudge acted like he didn't hear a word of it. Maybe he trained himself (or Lucius trained him) so well that he does manage to block such things completely and honestly not hear them. Alina. From grianne2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 15:20:27 2004 From: grianne2 at yahoo.com (Annalisa Moretti) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:20:27 -0000 Subject: Cuaron's Hogwarts IS a nice place (Was: Hogwarts a nice place?, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100402 I really hope many of you read this ... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > Firstly, I believe Snow is referring to the readers'/viewers' > perspective. For me, Hogwarts and the entire Potterverse are nice > places to visit. Living in the "real" world can be a bit much > sometimes, and visiting Harry's world, whether through books or > movies, is always a wonderful way to transcend everyday life. The > world that JKR has created has always been, for me, a world that's > bigger than life, a world of rich leather, golden things (like > snitches and Dumbledore's instruments), and warm, fuzzy socks. In my > opinion, the first two movies reflected the "spirit" of the books not > because they followed them to the letter, but because they caught this > warmth perfectly. The third movie was, for me, a big disappointment, > not because "immobulus" stops the whomping willow or Flitwick looks > funny, but because it hasn't captured the beauty of the books. > Hogwarts has become crumbly, Dumbledore needs a bath, and the Great > Hall doesn't take my breath away. I could be very wrong, but I don't > think that's what JKR had in mind. Wouldn't JKR know that better than you? One thing I've found most interesting about the responses to the movie are the people fretting about how it goes against so much of what JKR wrote, and yet JKR loved it, called it her favorite of all three -- and let's face it, JKR is very blunt, and isn't going to BS just to please Warner Bros. So I don't think the problem for you, or for the original poster, is that it isn't what JKR had in mind. It's that it isn't what YOU had in mind. Hogwarts is a nice place, to me, and I think, to Harry. Does nice mean clean and neat and logical? Why should it? 4 Privet Drive was all of those things. Yet it was a horrible place. I personally take great comfort in things that are old, things that are strange, things that are quirky ... which Cuaron's Hogwarts certainly is. And which I think JKR's Hogwarts is, too, but that's entirely up to interpretation. Why should a 13 year old boy care much about dirt? What has that got to do with anything? I found Cuaron's vision of Hogwarts one which was far more unsettling than Columbus' but no less a "nice place", and no less comforting. To me this is epitomized in the scene with the boys eating candy in their dormitory. As the camera pulls out of the window and shows us the Dementors, you feel an overwhelming sense that the world outside is dangerous, but that inside Hogwarts, things are safe, and despite the darkness in the world, there's a place to be carefree. - Annalisa From jane_starr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 15:38:56 2004 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possibly OT but (Lightning Bolt) In-Reply-To: <40C5D042.7090004@tds.net> Message-ID: <20040608153856.76243.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100403 > >>Littlekat wrote: > >>What does a lightning bolt look like? I am > absolutely clueless! > > > > Total blindness doth have its price. Ask someone to "draw" one on your hand with a fingernail. JES __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 15:42:50 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:42:50 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100404 > Dzeytoun: > > Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all > > of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I > > think he was an idiot. > > > > If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would > > have screamed all the way to the courtroom. > > Geoff: > Sorry, I left out a word. It's an "English" (and even "British") male > thing. Your last sentence reveals that you are probably from the US. Ginger, female, US resident, almost 38 (on 17 June): Perhaps it is the age factor rather than the nationality? I was surprised the first time I heard it suggested (on the list, not in the book) that Harry should have told about the quill. I understood him perfectly. One doesn't shout one's weakness to the world, one takes it like a man, er, person. In a case like this, one doesn't admit defeat no matter how bad the odds are. It isn't "manly". But I think that has changed over the generations. I had the living bejeebers beat out of me on a regular basis in jr. high. (2nd-4th year for those who would like a HP reference) Tell the teacher? I'd have sooner died! My mother saw the bruises once and told me that when little boys had crushes on little girls, they punched them. I was, in her eyes, popular. Yeah, right. Which leads me to another HP moment-the OoP pensieve scene. James, Sirius, and Remus (not counting Peter in this) were the popular guys. They hated Snape "because he existed". This rang so clearly to me. I was the only girl in our section in band. They didn't want me there. I was dumb, fat, ugly, from the "wrong" side of town. They hated me because I was in their space. They had been taught that what they were was "good". Popular, good looking, well off, good athletes. All these things were good, but they implied that the opposite was "bad", therefore, whatever I got was deserved, because I was none of the "good" things that they were, and therefore, I was "bad". See the logic? See the connection? I'd bet galleons that James and Sirius had the same attitude towards Snape. Add to it that Snape was into the Dark Arts, and there you have it! He had it coming, in their minds, anyway. When OoP first came out, I almost posted my reaction to this scene, but held off out of respect for the posters who were bothered by this scene. Many shared stories from their pasts, and I felt bad for them. My heart went out to quite a few. To them, I now say, please, don't think that I take what happened to you lightly. I have been in Snape's shoes, but a lot of time has passed since then, and I look at it with a different perspective now. The guys that used to beat me up have grown up to become model citizens. The ringleader, who did most of the punching, is now known as a really nice guy. They are good husbands and fathers, and would never think of doing anything like this now. I was amazed that JKR had nailed that persona so exactly. It was exactly as if she had followed me through jr. high, and then followed them on to their adulthoods. So very much like James and Remus grew up to be. And how Sirius probably would have had he had the chance to grow. I found the parallels so exact that I laughed through the whole thing. It was the highlight of my OoP reading. (that and "it unscrews the other way") I saw so clearly myself as Snape and the others as the guys who used to beat me up. One was the ringleader, showing off for the popular girls; one was the backup, the other kind of stood back unless called by the others into the action, but did nothing to stop it. It wasn't funny back then. Had I read the scene with less time and space between the incident and the reading, I probably would have been upset. Now, with hindsight, I understand why they did it. Not to condone, but to see where their heads were. (aside from the obvious eclipsed area) But, back to the original thread of the post, I walked away with the pride of knowing I had stood my ground, never let them see me cry, and had borne the battle by myself. Back in those days that meant honour, pride, dignity, and courage. Nowadays, it means lawsuit. Which is better? I guess that depends on your generation. Anyone else care to compare generational views? On these or other scenes? Ginger, hoping that those who have suffered abuse realize that I was laughing at how well JKR portrayed the charactors so realistically and how they mirrored my life, and not at the abuse itself. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 8 15:55:09 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > What is this Aggie theory can't find it fantastic posts.... Just a little bit of lateral thinking, couched in a humorous vein and intended as a counter to the LOLLIPOPS theorists. It's post 77800. Kneasy From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jun 8 09:37:39 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:37:39 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100406 > [Lee]:> 2. Umbridge would stop at nothing! She was even willing to do a Cruciatus > curse... One of the things that always bothers me about the HP books is the crimes against children and that the perpetrators have yet to face justice for them. The way the Dursleys have treated Harry meets the definition of felony child abuse. Fifteen years of physical and emotional abuse, both Vernon&Petunia should be in jail. As for Umbridge, lets see attemped murder (the dementors) and if Barty jr. couldn't turn Draco into a ferret then I don't think that a quill that carves what it writes into the writer's hand is acceptable. And she was going to use the Cruciatus curse on a fifteen year old boy. What has happen to her? She gets a fright from the centaurs and Peeves throws chalk at her. Maybe in the next two books these issues will be dealt with. From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 8 15:25:09 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (gift_lady) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:25:09 -0000 Subject: Aunt Marge Floating (WAS: Re: Harry/James, Crabbe/Goyle connection) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100407 Potioncat: > Sorry, I wasn't very clear. How Marge is shown in the movie is > different than the book. And having her floating in the air was very > similar in the movie to the Muggle baiting in GoF. The audience > found both Marge and Crabbe/Goyle funny...but when similar things > happen in the books, they are not funny. I did find Aunt Marge funny, mostly because Harry was getting even with her for what she was saying to his family. I doubt she'll talk about them that way again. I did not think the muggles being mistreated in GOF was funny and I hope if it's shown in the movie that the audience feels the same. Christina in GA (USA) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 8 16:16:19 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:16:19 -0000 Subject: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > I found the parallels so exact that I laughed through the whole thing. It was the highlight of my OoP reading. (that and "it unscrews the other way") I saw so clearly myself as Snape and the others as the guys who used to beat me up. < We all realize it was very hard on Sirius to be back at Grimmauld Place where he used to suffer abuse on a daily basis, even though the abusers are gone and he is now master of the house. We're inclined to make excuses for his sullen mood and his unkindness toward Kreacher on that account. What is it like for Snape to be at Hogwarts, where he suffered the same sort of thing? Pippin From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 16:17:38 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:17:38 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100409 "mikefeemster" wrote: > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what > you think. > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed. > > 28) Sirus and Hermione try to talk to Lupin as he transforms and > After he transforms. Susan (teilani): Two separate thoughts, the easier one first: I'm not really a shipper of any kind, and don't really care who Harry, Ron and Hermione hook up with... they're kids. However, #23) Hermione hugging Ron, and Harry hugging the two of them... Hmmmm.... I practically leapt out of my seat when I saw that. I thought that scene made it really obvious that Hermione likes Ron as much as he seems to like her. Harry was standing right there. All she'd have to do is turn left instead of right. And let's face it, Harry's a much more powerful wizard than Ron at this point, and possibly just more powerful naturally. That is, he's stronger. IMO, if she had equal, platonic feelings for both the guys, I'd think she'd turn towards the stronger of the two to get her comfort. But that didn't happen. She turned to Ron. Harry, being stronger, hugs and comforts them both. #28) Sirius touches Remus' heart when he's transforming, telling him essentially that (No, I didn't bring a notebook to the theater) Remus, his essence or whatever makes him HIM, keeps him more himself, resides in his heart. Sirius touches Harry's heart before he's getting ready to fly off, and tells him essentially the same thing. Now THIS I think is a clue. I'd love to hear thoughts on both, especially from those of you who can remember the exact words. Susan (who's hubby threatened to sit apart from her if she took notes on the movie ;-) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 15:50:01 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:50:01 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus In-Reply-To: <006a01c44d0d$ffbff3e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100410 Alina wrote: > Harry kept on waiting for his dad to show up somehow, > and then realized that it wasn't his dad he had seen, but his own > time-travelling self. He produced the Patronus, knowing his could > this time because he had already seen himself do it several hours > earlier. This is actually the part from PoA that REALLY REALLY confuses me, and this confusion was intensified after watching the film adaptation. I'm wondering, are certain time periods destined to be revisited? For example: 1. Hermione throwing the rocks to the hut so that they'll get out. 2. Hermione wondering if that's how her hair looks like from the back (that line cracked me up, i didn't think HErmione cared about her appearance too much just yet..) and the "past/before" Hermione hearing herself. 3. Of course, there's the werewolf-calling-out, and the Patronous, etc etc.. My question is, will those incidents have occurred if they didn't go back in time? It certainly seemed to me that they happened because the future H/Hr had interferred, and somehow the circumstances at that time *knew* that they were to be revisited and corrected?? This strongly reminds me of a scene from The Matrix with the Oracle and Neo. (this, of course, is a very rough transition of the conversation, I'm at a school library right now, I don't think the staffs will be too pleased if I started watching the MAtrix here...) - Oracle: "Oh, and don't worry the vase" - Neo: "What vase?" [and at that instance he breaks it..] - Neo: "how'd you know.." - Oracle: "the real question is, would you have broken it if I didn't tell you?" Also, whatever happens to people/lives/circumstances that are not involved with those who turned the Time Turner? Do they just simply go back in time and re-live the whole thing without knowing? Brenda (who is now more confused than ever, and who also started embracing her always-confused-and-dull brain ever since joining the group.. wells there HAVE to be the silly/non-perceptive ones for someone else to be smart.. it's all relative after all..) From debcip at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 12:29:03 2004 From: debcip at yahoo.com (debcip) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:29:03 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100411 > debcip writes: > > > Could someone please explain to me how Harry conjured the Prongs > > Patronus (as opposed to his father, which would have made more > > sense) when he was lying near dead on the bank with Sirius? I > > didn't understand this when I read the book, and the movie has not > > helped either. > Yuiren wrote: > Well, James is dead, so he couldn't have done it. That was not the Harry who > was with Sirius who conjured it. That was the Harry who had gone back in > time with Hermione. It's all about time travel. He thought he > had seen his dad, but it had been himself in the future. Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? Maybe I just don't understand time travel? debcip From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 8 16:35:41 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:35:41 -0000 Subject: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100412 I'm sure Lily Evans was a delightful and loveable girl. James certainly fell in love with her, Snape possibly did (don't go along with that myself, but a lot a people do) and now Lupin is suggested as another who fell under her spell. I have not so far heard it suggested that Sirius was another undeclared lover and am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how he felt about Lily. I would think he might have been a bit jealous of her, considering how strong his friendship is with James (I'm NOT suggesting a homosexual attraction, to bring up that tired old theme)but he must have been won over in order to accept the posts of best man and godfather. Sylvia From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 8 16:35:05 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:35:05 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > > > What is this Aggie theory can't find it fantastic posts.... > > Just a little bit of lateral thinking, couched in a humorous vein > and intended as a counter to the LOLLIPOPS theorists. > > It's post 77800. > > Kneasy Ah thanks. Yes its all clear now .... why *did* Lily end up with James the bully? Not, however, because of rejection by Snape, oh no she stayed true to type and fell for James after being rejected by ...... Vernon Dursley. You know it makes sense. Jo From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 16:37:17 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus References: Message-ID: <000d01c44d76$dda9d0f0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100414 > 1. Hermione throwing the rocks to the hut so that they'll get out. > 2. Hermione wondering if that's how her hair looks like from the back > (that line cracked me up, i didn't think HErmione cared about her > appearance too much just yet..) and the "past/before" Hermione > hearing herself. > 3. Of course, there's the werewolf-calling-out, and the Patronous, > etc etc.. > > My question is, will those incidents have occurred if they didn't go > back in time? It certainly seemed to me that they happened because > the future H/Hr had interferred, and somehow the circumstances at > that time *knew* that they were to be revisited and corrected?? This > strongly reminds me of a scene from The Matrix with the Oracle and > Neo. (this, of course, is a very rough transition of the > conversation, I'm at a school library right now, I don't think the > staffs will be too pleased if I started watching the MAtrix here...) Well, except for the Patronus, those are all movie occurances, but then they're the same type of paradox. And that's what they are. A Time paradox. You can go mad contemplating it and my sincerest advice is to just accept it as it is. Alina. P.S. If you, however, enjoy going mad while contemplating time travel, I recommend dropping by the book store and buying The Anubis Gate by Tim Powers. From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 16:40:07 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:40:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren References: Message-ID: <001301c44d77$42a7d9c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100415 > Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't > understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see > himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? > > Maybe I just don't understand time travel? > > debcip > It's a time-loop. In order to understand it, I suggest thiking that Harry and Hermione's time travel didn't change history but maintained the required course of history. Alina. From mariaalena at purdue.edu Tue Jun 8 16:53:23 2004 From: mariaalena at purdue.edu (Maria) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:53:23 -0000 Subject: Time Turner (WAS Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100416 Debcip asked some questions about how time travel happens and what's up with the Patronus, so I quickly wrote an explanation. I hope it makes sense, it's not the easiest thing to explain to understand. The thing is, the Time-Turner doesn't send you back in time. It creates a copy of you. The rule is, *there is only one timeline*. Let me try to explain this, I've never been successful before, but who knows. Let's say it's 5 p.m. And let's say that sometime in the future, at 8 p.m., Hermione uses the Time-Turner, turning it three times. What the Time Turner does is create another copy of Hermione that exists during the time period from 5 pm to 8pm. So, when Harry and Hermione used the Time-Turner in the hospital wing, it created a second version of them (usually referred to as Harry 2 and Hermione 2) three hours before. There are not two timelines. There is only one, with two versions of Harry and Hermione running around. We only go through it twice: once with Harry 1 and Hermione 1, and the second time with Harry 2 and Hermione 2. All events that happened the first time we went through this timeline were influenced by Harry 2 and Hermione 2, because they *were* there all along. Buckbeak never died, James never cast the Patronus (it was Harry 2). In the movie, Hermione 2 was the one to throw the stones and "aroo" from the very beginning. Harry 2 and Hermione 2 never changed the course of events: they created it in the first place. Does this make sense? This kind of time travel is very Calvinistic, in the sense that it's evidently predestined that Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner. Maria, who is having trouble typing. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 8 17:17:58 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:17:58 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "debcip" wrote: > Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? > > Maybe I just don't understand time travel? > Think of time as a string of beads. You can touch a string of beads in more than one place at a time, but an ant moving along the string can only touch one at a time. Mostly we experience events as the ant does, one at a time, but the time turner acts on both the present *and* the past. It removes the user from his current position, and inserts him into a time he already experienced, *at the moment when he first experienced it*. There never was a "real time" when Harry didn't drive off the dementors. The magic of the time turner will see that no paradox is created as long as the time-travelling wizard is careful not to allow a paradox to be observed. So, once Hermione had been observed to have missed Charms class, she wasn't supposed to use the time turner to go back to it. But since Harry did observe himself driving away the Dementors, although he thought it was his dad, it was okay for him to do it. On the other hand, a misused time turner will create paradoxes. As we saw in the Ministry of Magic in Book Five, the smashed cabinet full of time turners got stuck in a travelling loop very much like the one which contained the hatching hummingbird. So Hermione's caution is understandable. Pippin From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 17:23:53 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:23:53 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <40C4B81F.90104@shaw.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100418 M wrote: > Thank you for the extensive list, Mike! > > I'm going to leave some space here for spoilers. > > P > O > A > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > > > > M writes: > > That scene really struck me. Arthur keeps referring to Sirius as > 'Black' and insisting that Black wants to go after Harry for what Harry > did to Voldemort. Since he never specifically said Sirius (it was > implied), that conversation could be taken to mean another Black - > Bellatrix, perhaps? Meaning that Bellatrix will have a greater role in > the next two books, possibly even opeining up a greater role for > Neville, or somehow drawing Neville into the prophecy with Harry since > now they share even more things together. After all, they both lost > parents (or in Harry's case, a parental figure) to Bellatrix. > Susan (teilani) now: What about Regulus? > Mike wrote: > > 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. > > > M writes: > > Though not really foreshadowing, I think it just illuminates Snape's > character :) For me, it strongly reinforces the idea that Snape is > trying to protect them via 'tough love'. > > Or maybe it just gave Alan Rickman something to do. > Susan again: LOL! I'm surprised at how little they gave Rickman in this movie! Perhaps that was exactly it! I mean, apart from really wanting to see him in Gran's clothes, I really wanted to see him flip out! Over Neville's bogart, over Lupin/Sirius in the shack, over H/H/Sirius and the time-turner, etc. The things Snape says and does in the book were great fun, I love it when he gets screwed, and I didn't get to see any of that in the movie! From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 17:45:04 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:45:04 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: <000f01c44d59$a36686d0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100419 > Sherry > This might sound crazy, but I had not even heard of the books till a little > before the 3rd one was released. I don't know how I missed all the stir and > talk. Annemehr: You know, I don't think there was as much "stir and talk" yet at that time. I must have come to the books very nearly when you did. In March '99, I heard by word-of-mouth from maybe two people that "kids seemed to really like those Harry Potter books," whatever they were, so we bought the first one for my daughter who was turning nine. I am in the habit of picking up my children's books occaisionally and dipping into them, and very fortunately this was one of them. She and I then went on to read the others, and the rest of my family has since joined in. It wasn't until a year later, for the release of GoF that I began to notice HP stories on the news. In a bookstore just after release day, where they were sold out of GoF, I picked up Sorcerer's Stone for the second time ever and read the part where Harry bought his wand -- and that's exactly the moment when I got the chills. That's the moment when I went from merely enjoying the books to getting well and truly hooked. Then after reading GoF, I couldn't leave it alone -- I kept picking it up and rereading parts. To bring this vaguely on to topic for the main list, there must be a reason (or several?) why these books mean so much to so many of us. Jo Rowling's definitely tapped into something, but I can't put my finger on it. And, why could she do it when so many other authors have never come close? Annemehr who also likes "how I came to HP" stories From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 17:46:34 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:46:34 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100420 "Danielle Arnt" > wrote: > > Anyone else feel that Crookshanks was robbed in the POA movie? I > always thoroughly enjoy the Crookshanks portions of the book, and > while I realize portions had to be cut, I was hoping that at least > that orange paw would show up on the whomping willow : ( I also get > the feeling that Crookshanks might come into similar play later on > in the series.>>> > >> > Mike: > I also think that Crookshanks was robbed. We all know that he is > more than just a cat. He should have been there during the > Shrieking Shack scene. Susan now: (teilani) Absolutely! Crookshanks knew Scabbers wasn't an ordinary rat! Crookshanks saved Sirius from Harry's wrath! Crookshanks got them into the passage way under the Whomping Willow! Crookshanks is IMHO going to be very important in the next two books. Why else would JKR go to the trouble of telling us that (among other things) he's part Kneazle? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 18:11:55 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:11:55 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH & Kloves on Lupin's feelings towards Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Arya wrote: > Hmm, you've got me thinking now.... Say Harry goes back in time and > ends up defeating Voldemort for good before any Potters are killed and > changes his own timeline so that he grows up completely normal, with > both parents and in a world free of Voldemort (and without a scar)? > > > vmonte responds: > > I don't think that Harry is going to be able to save his parents. In > fact, I think that Hermione's warning in PoA that bad things have > happened to wizards that have meddled with time will more than likely > happen to Harry. (Remember my post was a response to a dream I had, I > have no idea if this action will even take place.) > > If Harry does go back, I think that things are not going to work out > the way he plans. What if seeing 18 year old Harry is the reason > that Lily ultimately decides to sacrifice her own life to save him as > a baby? > > Let's say that Harry goes back but does not tell his mom who he is. > Who is to say that his mom wouldn't figure it out anyway. She sees > someone who looks like James and has her eyes... > > And What if Harry bumps into unexpected people on the way. What > would they make of him? Would they think he was a DE? > > Going back would be a bad idea all the way around. But > unfortunately, if given the means and opportunity, it's definitely > something Harry would do. > > Or come to think of it, Neville has just as much to gain by going > back as Harry does. > Susan (teilani): Not that I don't secretly wish for this to happen, but I just don't see how it's possible! At least, not with specifically a time- turner. How many times would you have to turn the thing just to hopefully arrive at the same spot? Plus, if it was that easy to do, why didn't Harry just get a time-turner and flip it around a few times so that he could at least prevent Sirius' death? That would have been much easier to do, had Harry done it immediately. Plus, H/H used it to save him once, why not again? I think if time travel's going to play a major role in the next two books, it will probably be through a different magical device/spell, rather than a time-turner, which seems to be for short trips rather than long ones. Susan, who really does hope that Harry has a happy ending. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 18:13:14 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:13:14 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100422 > > vmonte: > > > Here my point -- > > Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year old). > > He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there > > but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed > > there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because > > Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the > rubble. Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his > death. > > > Jospehine wrote: > > Dream or not I actually really like this idea! It would be a twist > on the whole idea we have of what really happened at Godric's > Hollow... > > Time travel has appeared once, why not again!? JKR does like to be > > clever and complex with her stories, and I am expecting the time > > turners seen in the MOM to reappear. > > > Mandy here: > I too like it, and would like to add the idea that perhaps James > wasn't there at all, it was TimeTurner/Harry? > > Could James have been killed elsewhere? > Was that why Lupin was surprised to here Harry could hear James' > voice? > It could add to Sirius and Remus guilt if they thought that their > best friends wife and child were somehow left alone to deal with LV. > and, as you say vmonte it would explane Snapes reluctant need to keep > Harry alive. > > Just some random thoughts, Mandy Antosha: The more I think about this idea, the more thought-provoking it is. There are all sorts of loose ends to tie up--mostly, what happened to James--but.... It's funny, I was playing Harry-Potter-make-believe with my six year old a month or two ago (it's her favorite thing to do), and we ended up playing this game where Harry and Hermione kept going back in time to meet Young!Sirius, Lily and James. That night, after she went to bed, the ideas raised by that game kept buzzing in my head, to the point where I ended up writing a fanfiction story in which Harry, on a mission to Little Hangleton, some five years or so before his birth, accidentally runs into Lily and--having been enjoined not to reveal the future--can only think to tell Lily that what she's going to try in GH after James tells her to get out will work, knowing that she will only understand once she is in that moment. To quote Chief O'Brien, I hate temporal mechanics. But I have to say, I like this idea of vmonte's a lot. It would be typical of JKR to use time travel as a plot gimmick once, and then have it return in a much more profound form later in the series. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 8 18:16:02 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:16:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU References: <1086716880.83032.79829.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c44d84$ad2ac660$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 100423 Pippin wrote: >We all realize it was very hard on Sirius to be back at Grimmauld >Place where he used to suffer abuse on a daily basis, even >though the abusers are gone and he is now master of the >house. We're inclined to make excuses for his sullen mood and >his unkindness toward Kreacher on that account. What is it like >for Snape to be at Hogwarts, where he suffered the same sort of >thing? The parallels could run even deeper than that. Grimmauld Place is both the bad place for Sirius, the place that constantly rubs it in about what his family were like and how he's been rejected by them, but also his place of safety, the one place where he doesn't have to worry about the Ministry arresting him and carting him back to Azkaban. I wonder if Hogwarts was also Snape's place of safety: that his arrival there as a teacher was linked to Voldemort's discovery that he was giving information to Dumbledore, and whether Hogwarts was the one place where Snape was not in danger of being hunted down by the DEs... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 18:24:19 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:24:19 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > Alina wrote: > > Harry kept on waiting for his dad to show up somehow, > > and then realized that it wasn't his dad he had seen, but his own > > time-travelling self. He produced the Patronus, knowing his could > > this time because he had already seen himself do it several hours > > earlier. > > > This is actually the part from PoA that REALLY REALLY confuses me, > and this confusion was intensified after watching the film > adaptation. I'm wondering, are certain time periods destined to be > revisited? For example: > > 1. Hermione throwing the rocks to the hut so that they'll get out. > 2. Hermione wondering if that's how her hair looks like from the back > (that line cracked me up, i didn't think HErmione cared about her > appearance too much just yet..) and the "past/before" Hermione > hearing herself. > 3. Of course, there's the werewolf-calling-out, and the Patronous, > etc etc.. > > My question is, will those incidents have occurred if they didn't go > back in time? It certainly seemed to me that they happened because > the future H/Hr had interferred, and somehow the circumstances at > that time *knew* that they were to be revisited and corrected?? This > strongly reminds me of a scene from The Matrix with the Oracle and > Neo. (this, of course, is a very rough transition of the > conversation, I'm at a school library right now, I don't think the > staffs will be too pleased if I started watching the MAtrix here...) > > - Oracle: "Oh, and don't worry the vase" > - Neo: "What vase?" [and at that instance he breaks it..] > - Neo: "how'd you know.." > - Oracle: "the real question is, would you have broken it if I didn't > tell you?" > > Also, whatever happens to people/lives/circumstances that are not > involved with those who turned the Time Turner? Do they just simply > go back in time and re-live the whole thing without knowing? > > Brenda (who is now more confused than ever, and who also started > embracing her always-confused-and-dull brain ever since joining the > group.. wells there HAVE to be the silly/non-perceptive ones for > someone else to be smart.. it's all relative after all..) This is why Chief O'Brien, the engineer in played by the wonderful Colm Meaney in two of the Star Trek series, says, "I hate temporal mechanics." The problem with them is that fiction works as a form of entertainment because there is an illusion of causality. The author sets up the expectation that characters' actions have certain outcomes, and that those outcomes are, to use Aristotle's phrase, 'inevitable but unexpected.' Once you introduce time travel, the illusion of a causal chain of events goes out the window. Most authors deal with it as Star Trek and JKR have done, with heavy injunctions and taboos not to change the past. But Harry's conjuration of Prongs pushes that injunction to the limit, and Cuaron clearly wanted to play along and push it even further. Remember, a lot (if not all) of the changes made in creating the movie are there to externalize the parts of the book that happen inside Harry's head. Books are inherently psychological, where films are by necessity an art form of action and visual imagery. From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 16:44:28 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:44:28 -0000 Subject: Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100425 First of all, this is really a neat forum. It's nice to find other adults who've read the books. I've been re-reading the Order of the Phoenix after seeing the latest movie. While all of the references to "pure-blood" and "half-blood" and "mudblood" wizards and Squibs is distressingly reminscent of Nazi Germany, it does make me wonder how the genes are passed down. If Filch is a Squib who can't do magic, for instance, as noted in the book, how can he talk to his magical cat Mrs. Norris? Did I miss some reference in the book? Is he just a very weak wizard who didn't have enough talent to be trained at Hogwarts? My working theory is that wizarding must be a recessive gene and the non-magic gene is dominant. The so called "pure blood" families, like the Weasleys or the Blacks, all have members who carry only wizarding genes. There's no taint of Muggle blood. The Longbottoms must have done some intermarrying with Muggles, as they thought there was a real possibility that Neville could be a Squib, a Muggle born to wizards. But Neville is just as much a wizard as the "purebloods." How to explain a wizard or witch born to a Muggle family, like Lily Evans or Hermione Granger, or the child of a Muggle and a wizard who turns out to be a wizard, like Seamus Finnegan? I think these Muggle families have to be descended from Squibs who originated in the wizarding world but settled among the Muggles. Maybe it was 100 years in the past and the family has forgotten all about it, but their magical genes survived and combined to produce a magical child when two descendants of the Squib families married. That would probably mean that a Squib isn't actually a Muggle like other Muggles. They probably don't carry enough magical genes to give them wizarding powers, but enough to make them sensitive to the magical world. So Petunia Dursley and Dudley both have some magic in them, deny it though they might. It would serve Vernon and Petunia right to have a grandson or granddaughter who goes to Hogwarts! From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 17:16:36 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:16:36 -0000 Subject: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100426 Sylvia wrote: > I'm sure Lily Evans was a delightful and loveable girl. James > certainly fell in love with her, Snape possibly did (don't go along > with that myself, but a lot a people do) and now Lupin is suggested > as another who fell under her spell. I have not so far heard it > suggested that Sirius was another undeclared lover and am wondering > if anyone has any ideas about how he felt about Lily. I would think > he might have been a bit jealous of her, considering how strong his friendship is with James (I'm NOT suggesting a homosexual attraction, > to bring up that tired old theme)but he must have been won over in > order to accept the posts of best man and godfather. Brenda: I KNOW this is a crazy and uneducated thing to say, but in light of Vivian's dream (of HArry present at the time of Lily's death -- which I think is very neat, btw) I decided to share my own dream (well, one of my MANY MANY HArry POtter dreams).. I actually had a dream that Sirius was dating Rita Skeeter's sister in the 5th book, HAHAHAHAHHA. I remember thinkin 'damn, I wish I was her!', wahahhaa. I dreamt this because that night (after reading GoF) I was wondering, why isn't there a mention of Sirius' girlfriends in highschool? For someone that clever, tall and great- looking, surely there was a long line-up of girls trying to put their claws on him? I know I'd have been the first in line, mind you.. And also in Snape's Worst Memory, (and I apologize in advance for not having the exact quote, I'm in school library) Harry sees Sirius leaning back on his chair in DADA OWL exam, and a girl behind him was eyeing him hopefully, but he didn't notice her.. Was he that uninterested in girls? And no he doesn't emit the "gay" vibe to me but some guys are just not interested in girls till very late, or they don't care unless the girl is super uber gorgeous (to their standard, of course). I don't know, I just hope that we get to hear more of his personal life dettached from James.. Oh, and it seems to me, unlikely that Snape had feelings for Lily.. maybe Bellatrix? The description of Bella reminds me of the "Devil" in Bedazzled, portrayed by Elizabeth Hurley. Snape-Lily situation will be analogous to Draco being attracted to Hermione (which I think is a possibility actually, maybe it's because I am reminded more of Tom-Emma rather than Draco-HErmione? dunno..) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 19:14:19 2004 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:14:19 -0000 Subject: Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: > First of all, this is really a neat forum. It's nice to find other > adults who've read the books. I've been re-reading the Order of the > Phoenix after seeing the latest movie. While all of the references > to "pure-blood" and "half-blood" and "mudblood" wizards and Squibs > is distressingly reminscent of Nazi Germany, it does make me wonder > how the genes are passed down. > Hi bookworm (and everyone else!) I haven't posted for a long, long time (too much work, too much worry). But discussions of the genetics of magical families kind of come and go here, and last year (don't remember when and can't find the post), I posted a rather extended analysis of how magical talents might be inherited. It was long and boring and I'm sure that most people quit reading before they got to my conclusions, but my idea was this: That more than one gene is responsible for magical ability. Most people don't realize how much genes interact with each other. Some genes, in fact, interfere with the activity of others, some enhance the activity of others, and the genes that enhance/inhibit other genes are influenced by other genes. So, I think that you can inherit a whole set of genes that interact with one another and influence whether you're a Muggle or a Squib or a Wizard. This sort of thing would explain why Wizards pop up in Muggle families (their parents each carried only a few of the genes that are necessary for a Wizard, but when they had a baby, the child got a full set of Wizard genes, half from Mom and half from Dad), and it explains Squibs (they only got a few of the genes, or got the those genes that interfere with others), and Muggles (they lost out in the genetic lottery). The short form is--I don't think it's either/or, dominant/recessive, or anything quite so simple. Not that it isn't fun to speculate. ;) Peg From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 18:10:49 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:10:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow Message-ID: <53.ddeca35.2df75b29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100428 In a message dated 6/8/2004 12:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bess_va at lycos.com writes: > We're led > to believe its Tom; after all, Voldemort says he killed his own > father (easiest reference to find as the book's in front of me, GOF, > Scholastic paperback, page 646). But what if it's Harry? Yes, that's a really valid point, since we know that Voldemorte lies. Voldemorte has no problem lying to Harry if it will get him what he wants. Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jun 8 19:16:38 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:16:38 -0000 Subject: My prediction for Book 7 (NOT movie related) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100429 I was poking around the News section of JKR's website. In the section dated 2 June 2004, she has posted her comments after seeing the London premiere of the PoA movie. I ran across this quote: "Somebody from Warner Bros. offered me one of the giant, blow-up Aunt Marges that they had tied around the front of the cinema, but I thought it would have been more fun to untie them and let them drift over the country for the next couple of days. Pink Floyd did it with that giant inflatable pig... but most of the people reading this will be too young to know what on earth I'm talking about." So, I took this to mean that she likes Pink Floyd. In light of this revelation, my prediction for Book 7 is We find out that Professor Snape has a fat, psychopathic wife who thrashes him within inches of his life. Remember, you read it here first. Demetra (who is definitely old enough to know what she's talking about) From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 19:31:45 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:31:45 -0000 Subject: Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: > First of all, this is really a neat forum. It's nice to find other > adults who've read the books. I've been re-reading the Order of the > Phoenix after seeing the latest movie. While all of the references > to "pure-blood" and "half-blood" and "mudblood" wizards and Squibs > is distressingly reminscent of Nazi Germany, it does make me wonder > how the genes are passed down. > > If Filch is a Squib who can't do magic, for instance, as noted in > the book, how can he talk to his magical cat Mrs. Norris? Did I miss > some reference in the book? Is he just a very weak wizard who didn't > have enough talent to be trained at Hogwarts? > > My working theory is that wizarding must be a recessive gene and the > non-magic gene is dominant. The so called "pure blood" families, > like the Weasleys or the Blacks, all have members who carry only > wizarding genes. There's no taint of Muggle blood. It's magic, the exact opposite of science. Why are we trying to use the laws of science to quantify it? How do we even know that it's genes that determine this stuff for wizards seeing how the wizards are capable of violating quite a few laws of physics. I mean how do you know that it isn't the soul that determines if they're going to have magical powers or not? It's not physics, it's metaphysics.- Joss Whedon From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 18:46:54 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:46:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: mentions of Luna? References: <004001c44ce7$54120540$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> <05f901c44cf4$f744a9e0$e60b8f45@Voov> <005201c44d0a$827e3f20$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <013201c44d88$f85caa50$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100431 Mly hunchh about Luna is this. I think she may date Harry a few times, but they both will come to the conclusion that they are better off as friends. My other hunch is that Luna will end up with Neville, once Neville realizes how cool she is. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 18:36:01 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:36:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus Message-ID: <65.2b805a28.2df76111@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100432 In a message dated 6/8/2004 12:25:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com writes: > I'm wondering, are certain time periods destined to be > revisited? Yuiren now: Time travel is a funny thing. There's a huge paradox in the nature of time travel. If one goes back in time and changes something drastically, will their future selves even *know* to go back in time and change it or will they even return to the same world? Will they return to something exactly the way they left it, while another parallel universe goes on seperately? My beleif on this is that if Harry saw the patronus of his future self, it had to happen, because he already saw it. It already happenned. If the Harry that went back in time did not conjur the patronus, then the past Harry of a few hours ago would have died and he would not have been there in the first place. Therefore, it was preordanedat that point that it had to happen. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 19:35:49 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:35:49 -0000 Subject: My prediction for Book 7 (NOT movie related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > I was poking around the News section of JKR's website. In the > section dated 2 June 2004, she has posted her comments after seeing > the London premiere of the PoA movie. I ran across this quote: > > "Somebody from Warner Bros. offered me one of the giant, blow-up Aunt > Marges that they had tied around the front of the cinema, but I > thought it would have been more fun to untie them and let them drift > over the country for the next couple of days. Pink Floyd did it with > that giant inflatable pig... but most of the people reading this will > be too young to know what on earth I'm talking about." > > > So, I took this to mean that she likes Pink Floyd. In light of this > revelation, my prediction for Book 7 is > We find out that Professor Snape has a fat, psychopathic wife who > thrashes him within inches of his life. > > Remember, you read it here first. > > Demetra (who is definitely old enough to know what she's talking > about) Susan (teilani) here: Better yet, Snape's wife is having an affair, so he freaks out and shaves off his eyebrows, all the while having horrible flashbacks re: WW War 1. Explains why he can't seem to get out of the past. Hmmm... maybe she's having her affair with LV. (Just being silly;-) From KuteJCLuvr at aol.com Tue Jun 8 18:20:30 2004 From: KuteJCLuvr at aol.com (KuteJCLuvr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:20:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100434 Sherrie: Yet according to JKR's character notes, Millicent Bulstrode is a half-blood. She doesn't appear to be treated any differently than the other Slytherins - she's even part of the Inquisitorial Squad in OotP. When did we see these character notes? Are you refering to the blurry screencaps or was this in an interview? I don't think I've ever heard anything about this, but it sound very intersting. Could you point me in the direction of where this came from? Yuiren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 19:38:51 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:38:51 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus In-Reply-To: <65.2b805a28.2df76111@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/8/2004 12:25:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Agent_Maxine_is at h... writes: > > > I'm wondering, are certain time periods destined to be > > revisited? > > > Yuiren now: > Time travel is a funny thing. There's a huge paradox in the nature of time > travel. If one goes back in time and changes something drastically, will their > future selves even *know* to go back in time and change it or will they even > return to the same world? Will they return to something exactly the way they > left it, while another parallel universe goes on seperately? > My beleif on this is that if Harry saw the patronus of his future self, it > had to happen, because he already saw it. It already happenned. If the Harry > that went back in time did not conjur the patronus, then the past Harry of a > few hours ago would have died and he would not have been there in the first > place. Therefore, it was preordanedat that point that it had to happen. > > Susan: Similar to this is the movie *Timeline*. For history to be correct, they _have_ to go back. Won't explain any more, but if you see the movie, it's easy to make the comparison to time travel in PoA. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 8 18:11:16 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:11:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts a nice place? (Was Re: The Movie vs. JKR?) References: Message-ID: <000201c44d83$fdfc9560$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100436 Oh, I'm sure that Hogwarts is a wonderful place, but part of me says it's wonderful because I don't live there. When I was growing up, my family was transferred to various parts of the country, so I constantly found myself in the situation of changing schools. The first few days would always be just great, but after a month or so, things would go back to being the same. I was still unpopular, didn't have any real friends, and always seemed to have more interests in common with older of younger students, not those of my own age. It sounds like I'm saying that people are the same everywhere, in the wizarding workd, as well as in the muggle one. Would that have been the case? Even though the wizarding world has its share of ugliness and evil, my heart feels that it would have found a place there. I'd have loved to hang out with the gang, and maybe I could have. Still, I wonder, are the pumpkins always greener in somebody else's patch? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From bburkett at uiuc.edu Tue Jun 8 17:22:23 2004 From: bburkett at uiuc.edu (hopping_hessien) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:22:23 -0000 Subject: Moonlighting syndrome In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > Imagine, Snape [insert fanfic clich? of your choice] and end to be > nice with Harry. Harry, happy to have a new father figure, begin to > [insert another clich?] in the beginning of the 6th book. Won't you > think that the books would lost something ? I think that Snape and Harry having a father/son relationship, or Snape replacing Sirius, would be going too far. I see what you're saying, but I think that Jo could have Harry and Snape reach some sort of truce or understanding without wishing to be friends or even nice to each other. The two can respect and understand each other, but still feel a strong mutual dislike. However, resentment and bitterness can only destroy and Harry and Snape need to forgive and move on. From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 8 15:36:00 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (gift_lady) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:36:00 -0000 Subject: First found HP -was re:POA, book vs. movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100438 I was another Christian that was warned off the books a long time ago and it wasn't until OotP was out that we bought the books. I saw the first movie and loved it and we went right out and bought all the books available. I read them to myself first and now my 10yo son and I are reading them together. We've almost finished OotP. I am so glad that I read the books and didn't let others opinions - usually those who have not even read the books - deter me from enjoying them myself. Christina in GA From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Tue Jun 8 19:42:32 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:42:32 -0000 Subject: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I'm sure Lily Evans was a delightful and loveable girl. James > certainly fell in love with her, Snape possibly did (don't go along > with that myself, but a lot a people do) and now Lupin is suggested > as another who fell under her spell. I have not so far heard it > suggested that Sirius was another undeclared lover and am wondering > if anyone has any ideas about how he felt about Lily. I would think > he might have been a bit jealous of her, considering how strong his > friendship is with James (I'm NOT suggesting a homosexual attraction, > to bring up that tired old theme)but he must have been won over in > order to accept the posts of best man and godfather. > > Sylvia AmanitaMuscaria now - Sorry, all, but Lily is becoming the original MarySue for me. I hope we get some sort of dimension to her, and she doesn't end up as the idealised girl/girlfriend/mother she seems to be at the moment. Both Molly and Hermione have escaped the perfectness; Ginny and Luna both started out without it (hooray!), and Cho has blotted her copybook well and truly now. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 19:58:04 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:58:04 -0000 Subject: First found HP -was re:POA, book vs. movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100440 "gift_lady" wrote: > I was another Christian that was warned off the books a long time ago > and it wasn't until OotP was out that we bought the books. I saw the > first movie and loved it and we went right out and bought all the > books available. I read them to myself first and now my 10yo son and > I are reading them together. We've almost finished OotP. I am so glad > that I read the books and didn't let others opinions - usually those > who have not even read the books - deter me from enjoying them > myself. > > Christina in GA Susan (teilani): Since so many posters are sharing their stories... I was an English major in college, just got my MA in English, so needless to say, I read... a lot. I was working at the local public library, and my favorite Reference Librarian was really excited about Harry and SS. On top of that, the emotion, pride maybe (?) that I felt when I read in the papers after CoS (?) came out that JKR had all these kids *reading* WOW! Kids wanting to read. Love that. Anything that gets a kid to read is fabulous in my opinion. Plus, because of that librarian, I really started to get into the series, and I had someone to talk with about the storylines. I remember jumping up off my couch when I got to the part in PoA that tells us Sirius was innocent! (Needless to say, I was really bummed about his death in OoP). What turned out to be even better was that after the kids finished the books and were waiting like the rest of us for the next one to be published, I (and my co-workers) were constantly being asked by both kids and parents what they should read while they were waiting for the next HP book. Uh, kids got hooked on reading because of JKR, so much so that they wanted to keep reading books even if they weren't stories about our beloved Harry Potter! That's one of the many reasons I could not understand what some Christians hated about HP... especially since it was clear that they didn't read the books. That situation reminded me of the minister who declared that one of the Teletubbies was gay. What one year old knows what _gay_ is? And for that matter, what was that minister thinking?! Totally OT for a moment, I know, but while I thought SS was a good kids book, and CoS was better, PoA blew me away, and GoF and OoP got finished in one night, despite their length! I am really excited for 6&7, and I really do hope the books continue to get more mature as Harry & Co mature. Susan From allison_m_otto at lycos.com Tue Jun 8 14:37:48 2004 From: allison_m_otto at lycos.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:37:48 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers)--Shipping added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100441 o_caipora wrote: > This is a terrible thing to say, but Ron is imitating Draco's > strategy of overstating an injury to win sympathy. I hope this > doesn't foreshadow Ron!Draco_Groupie . . . Allison: I actually thought Ron (and possibly Hermione with him) was making fun of Draco in that scene. Everyone saw Draco milking his injury to gain Pansy's sympathy (I think he even said something about his arm having to come off), and I thought that by using essentially the same words Ron was mocking him. We had just seen Ron trying to walk on the leg and telling Sirius it wasn't too bad, which was why I thought he might be joking when he then gives Hermione what I thought was a very wide-eyed innocent look and says it'll probably have to come off. My second viewing will likely be Friday, so I'll look again! From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 20:04:30 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (Maggie Barclay) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Buckbeak's Execution and Other Questions In-Reply-To: <1086716880.83032.79829.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040608200430.22322.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100442 As I was watching the movie one of the things I was paying attention to was how the movie would answer some of our questions, not that I accept the movie as cannon, but, well, an example. . . I remember a long time ago (years ago?) we were all discussing the time turner bit and trying to determine if we really witnessed two courses of events or if we witnessed one course of events interpreted in two different ways. In other words, was Buckbeak really executed the first time and then the time turner brought him back to life or did he not really die the first time (because HH were already there to rescue him)? The argument was made that as HRH didn't SEE Buckbeak executed, merely heard the thud, it was possible that they heard some other noise and interpreted it to mean that Buckbeak was dead. I liked that the movie answered that question, though probably not to the satisfaction of everyone in this group ;), by showing the executioner taking out his frustrations on a poor defenseless pumpkin. I'm just curious if anyone else found things in the movie that, if not proved, at least validated their own particular interpretation of a scene in the book. MaggieB--who tried really hard to make this email readable and hopes desperatly that it makes some sense --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 8 20:08:08 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:08:08 -0000 Subject: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > > AmanitaMuscaria now - > Sorry, all, but Lily is becoming the original MarySue for me. I hope we get some sort of dimension to her, and she doesn't end up as the idealised girl/girlfriend/mother she seems to be at the moment. Both Molly and Hermione have escaped the perfectness; Ginny and Luna both started out without it (hooray!), and Cho has blotted her copybook well and truly now.< Oh, I don't think Lily was a saint, or at least, not a saint to everybody. Petunia certainly doesn't think so. I'll bet some of that frogspawn ended up in Petunia's pockets, and that it was her teacup that turned into a rat. Neville, Ron, and Harry could all be said to love Hermione in different ways, and she's been there for both Neville and Harry at times when no one else was, but she's not a Mary Sue. Pippin From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 20:11:42 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:11:42 -0000 Subject: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100444 Minor Spoiler for POA I know I've read a few posts on one of these lists regarding the moment in POA when Pettigrew turns back into a rat. How when he turns back into a human from being a rat, he has clothes on, but when he turns back into a rat, the clothes don't go with him. I agree that is an error in the movie, but in re-reading POA, I noticed JKR made the same kind of error when describing how Pettigrew escaped from Sirius. When she's in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade talking with Hagrid, Fudge, Flitwick and Rosmerta, she mentions: "And Black standing there laughing, with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him. . .a heap of bloodstained robes and a few -- a few fragments --" Obviously this is a mistake on JKR's part. It certainly doesn't make sense for an Animagus not to have his clothes when he transforms. When has McGonagall ever transformed without taking her clothes/robes with her (or her spectacles for that matter, which are part of her markings as a tabby)? In this very book she transforms before teaching the class on Animagi. Imagine if she were to turn back into herself after being a cat without her robes! "Ugh, McGonagall naked!" "Didn't need to see that." Barbara aka bd-bear From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 16:56:10 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:56:10 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" > wrote: > > Dzeytoun: > > Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all > > of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I > > think he was an idiot. > > > > If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would > > have screamed all the way to the courtroom. > > Geoff: > Sorry, I left out a word. It's an "English" (and even "British") male > thing. Your last sentence reveals that you are probably from the US. Geoff, long time lurker here and normally I agree with you, but your last comment was out of line. The 'stand and take it' or 'you're not going to get to me response' is not British or even male; it's personal. David From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jun 8 20:39:58 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:39:58 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100446 > Susan (teilani) reposnds in regard to Harry time-turning about 17 years to GH: Not that I don't secretly wish for this to happen, but I just don't see how it's possible! At least, not with specifically a time- turner. How many times would you have to turn the thing just to hopefully arrive at the same spot? Plus, if it was that easy to do, why didn't Harry just get a time-turner and flip it around a few times so that he could at least prevent Sirius' death? That would have been much easier to do, had Harry done it immediately. Plus, H/H used it to save him once, why not again? I think if time travel's going to play a major role in the next two books, it will probably be through a different magical device/spell, rather than a time-turner, which seems to be for short trips rather than long ones. -------------- But we saw in the DoM, in the Time Room, that Time Turners were only one of the time-manipulating devices available. On this topic, I also latched onto this in the PoA movie * * * SPOILERS* * * * * * * SPOILERS * * * SPOILER * * * ...Dumbledore's comment to Harry and Hermione just before he locks them, he says, "I find it always helps to retrace my steps" which to me, sounds like he's pretty much saying he's Time-turned before. Where? When? Why? What happened? I want to know all about his Time-turning experiences. (And no, I don't buy the Ron/Dumbledore theory at all.) Arya From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 8 20:36:43 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:36:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Aunt Marge Floating (WAS: Re: Harry/James, Crabbe/Goyle connection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100447 | From: gift_lady | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:25 AM | | Potioncat: | > Sorry, I wasn't very clear. How Marge is shown in the movie is | > different than the book. And having her floating in the air was very | > similar in the movie to the Muggle baiting in GoF. The audience | > found both Marge and Crabbe/Goyle funny...but when similar things | > happen in the books, they are not funny. | | [Gift_Lady]: | I did find Aunt Marge funny, mostly because Harry was getting even | with her for what she was saying to his family. I doubt she'll talk | about them that way again. I did not think the muggles being | mistreated in GOF was funny and I hope if it's shown in the movie | that the audience feels the same. [Lee]: Sometimes an incident can be viewed with two different viewpoints depending on the context in which it occurs. So, people could laugh at Aunt Marge, knowing the context in which this incident occurred. But, when we see the muggle-bating, we know the context; it's radically different...deliberate attempt to harm and humiliate and a prelude to possibly darker things to come, coupled with the fact that tents are being set aflame and destruction is following in the wake of those who are torturing the Roberts Family. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 21:17:07 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:17:07 -0000 Subject: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara" wrote: > Minor > > > > Spoiler > > > > for > > > > POA > > > I know I've read a few posts on one of these lists regarding the > moment in POA when Pettigrew turns back into a rat. How when he > turns back into a human from being a rat, he has clothes on, but > when he turns back into a rat, the clothes don't go with him. I > agree that is an error in the movie, but in re-reading POA, I > noticed JKR made the same kind of error when describing how > Pettigrew escaped from Sirius. When she's in the Three Broomsticks > in Hogsmeade talking with Hagrid, Fudge, Flitwick and Rosmerta, she > mentions: > > "And Black standing there laughing, with what was left of Pettigrew > in front of him. . .a heap of bloodstained robes and a few -- a few > fragments --" Annemehr: Actually, I took it to mean that Pettigrew had *planned* to fake his death. Sirius thinks he "caught up with" Pettigrew, but I think Peter had anticipated that Sirius would be after him. He also may have already heard some of what Sirius heard in Azkaban: that the DEs blamed Peter for LV's downfall. So, I think PP had a spare set of bloody robes on him to drop after shouting his line and blowing up the street. Then, when Sirius and Lupin turn him back into a man in the Shrieking Shack, he was wearing the clothes he "had on" him the whole twelve years he was a rat. Just my interpretation, anyway. Annemehr From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 8 21:20:49 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (Hans) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:20:49 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain (C. Rosycross in jeans) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100449 I really must thank Iris profoundly for her tremendous contribution to the subject of the sign of Cain which I raised in my article, "Harry Potter - Christian Rosycross in Jeans." I want to compliment and praise Iris for the depth of her research on this and on the effort she has obviously made in writing her long and well thought out post. It has incited me to do more thinking on this subject, but unfortunately I'm not as quick thinking as Iris and I can't just write a long, detailed reply like she has. However just for a start I want to throw another ingredient into the complicated soup of Cain's sign and original sin. Please note that Harry LIBERATES a serpent. The first thing he does as a conscious person, at the age of 10, is to set the snake in the zoo free! The serpent in the Garden of Eden offers the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to Eve. Harry sets the serpent free. What does that mean? I hope you all have a wonderful time thinking about that! Thanks also to Geoff for his reaction to Iris' post. I enjoyed reading it and am grateful for sharing his point of view. Hans in Holland From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 8 21:24:11 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:24:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100450 | From: debcip | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 8:29 AM | Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't | understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see | himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? | | Maybe I just don't understand time travel? [Lee]: Okay, in POA, Chapter 21, I quote: ----------BEGIN PASSAGE---------- "No!" said Hermione in a terrified whisper. "Don't you understand? We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen--" "We'd only be seen by ourselves and Hagrid!" "Harry, what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting into Hagrid's house?" said Hermione. "I'd--I'd think I'd gone mad," said Harry, "or I'd think there was some Dark Magic going on--" "Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time. ... Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!" ----------END PASSAGE------------ So, in other words, Harry could have been said to break the rules, except that what the semi-conscious Harry saw was interpreted by him as his father. After all, what else could it be. So, the Harry that produced the Patronus was seen by the smitten Harry, but not interpreted as himself. The connection comes after he goes back, produces the Patronus and realizes how the whole puzzle fit together. Have I confused things even more? Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 8 21:49:09 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:49:09 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David & Laura" wrote: David: > Geoff, long time lurker here and normally I agree with you, but your > last comment was out of line. The 'stand and take it' or 'you're not > going to get to me response' is not British or even male; it's > personal. Geoff: Don't agree. Other posters have agreed with my interpretation. I also base this on what I've seen with friends and with over 30 years of teaching British teenagers..... From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jun 8 21:56:44 2004 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:56:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > After reading Order of the Phoenix, I'm sure a lot of people felt > that Harry and Cho were done for good. But somehow I feel there is > still something unresolved between them. Yes, they went on a date, > but they were never official. Cho had her issues with Cedric and her > jealousy of Hermione to deal with. A lot of people thought that Cho > was a stuck up jerk, but her boyfriend had died. Wouldn't we all > react the same way in that situation? I feel that Cho will still > play a part in Harry's life in the next book, although I'm a little > unsure about book seven. Don't count her out of the picture just > yet. Also, did JK say there was going to be romance in the final two > books? In the lastest on-line chat, JKR said that "It" was never going to work out for Harry and Cho and it was better it ended now. (you can find the queston answer on Mugglenet.com. Under chat room discussions). 'Cause I have to say after I read OOP I kind of thought that Harry and Cho might still have a chance but, Jo says no.. Cho and Harry are done. JKR did say that Harry was going to get more kisses in the next few books but, she wasn't saying WHO he was kissing or was gonna kiss him. sOOOOOO I guess it is wait and see what the next book says time.. Just thought I would let you know.. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 22:01:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:01:25 -0000 Subject: POA - Book vrs movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr > who also likes "how I came to HP" stories Snips Anne's story He! I thoroughly enjoyed your story and thought I will share mine. I first heard the name of Harry Potter on the news when some copies of GoF were sold earlier than the release date. I remember watching the interview with the girl, who got the book and asking myself; "Huh?" Shortly after that I was in the Barnes and Nobles store (I confess- I am a frequent customer there) and decided to see what the first book is all about. Well, I bought the other three shortly after that. :o) Alla From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 8 22:40:03 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:40:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren Message-ID: <1f1.2294a619.2df79a43@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100454 In a message dated 6/8/2004 12:33:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, debcip at yahoo.com writes: Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? Maybe I just don't understand time travel? ============= Sherrie here: Because it HAD happened already. (As Lazarus Long points out, the English language doesn't have tenses designed to handle time travel.) I'm not entirely sure I can explain it, really - but in going back in time, Harry & Hermione became part of the timestream at that earlier point in time. Nothing really happened twice - it all happened ONCE, as an organic whole, of which both Past!HarryHermione and Future!HarryHermione were part. :::sigh::: Oh, darn - it all seems so clear when Heinlein explains it... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 8 22:48:43 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:48:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: <8b.cf26625.2df79c4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100455 In a message dated 6/8/2004 3:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KuteJCLuvr at aol.com writes: Sherrie: Yet according to JKR's character notes, Millicent Bulstrode is a half-blood. She doesn't appear to be treated any differently than the other Slytherins - she's even part of the Inquisitorial Squad in OotP. When did we see these character notes? Are you refering to the blurry screencaps or was this in an interview? I don't think I've ever heard anything about this, but it sound very intersting. Could you point me in the direction of where this came from? Yuiren ============================= Sherrie here: Actually, the screencaps I've seen here: http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/ are quite clear... These are the notes she showed in the "Harry and Me" interview on A&E (which I FINALLY got to see, thanks to Mom recording it while I was at rehearsal!) - she explained that they were lists of the students in Harry's year, with notes indicating their magical heritage, house, & gender. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 22:59:42 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:59:42 -0400 Subject: speaking of genetics, something bugs me about Narcissa Message-ID: <005601c44dac$49e49f90$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100456 Note: if you're a fan of wacky and crazy theories, then scroll right to the end. There's something that's very off, to me, about Narcissa Malfoy nee Black. Actually, it's the "nee Black" part, more specifically the "Black" part and even more specifically the lack of black. In other words, why is Narcissa a blonde? When that fact was first introduced in GOF (it's mentioned in the Canadian edition at least), it didn't bother me. At that point, all I knew about Narcissa was that she was Malfoy, and the fact that there are few wizarding families made it possible that she was a Malfoy by birth as well as marriage. But now we've been told she's "Malfoy nee Black" and every other black we've seen was a brunette, right? I know a forum where people started a whole "what if Snape is a black too?" theory based just on hair colour. Moreover, Narcissa's sister is a brunette. Do genetics allow for full siblings to have black and blond hair? I think Narcissa was born a brunette, I think her hair was magicked blonde when she joined the Malfoy clan. I have even more fun thinking that she, like her niece, is a metamorphmagus who morphed her hair blonde. I also have a completely wacky theory that says there were only two Black sisters, not three. Andromeda strayed, married a muggle, gave birth to Nymphadora, was captured by her family, got her memory modified, her named changed, her hair recoloured and married off to Malfoy. Hmm... Alina. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:00:51 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:00:51 -0000 Subject: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > We all realize it was very hard on Sirius to be back at Grimmauld > Place where he used to suffer abuse on a daily basis, even > though the abusers are gone and he is now master of the > house. We're inclined to make excuses for his sullen mood and > his unkindness toward Kreacher on that account. What is it like > for Snape to be at Hogwarts, where he suffered the same sort of > thing? > > Pippin Oh, but the problem for me was that Sirius HAD to stay at Grimmauld place, because Dumbledore ordered him so (yes, Pippin, I know - he could have gone back to hiding to the beach, but I don't think it is a very reasonable option for Sirius, who is willing and ready to fight :o)). As to Snape, I am not entirely sure that I am buying that he has to stay at Hogwarts because someone else ordered him so. I am more likely to buy that he is staying there, because he is a wanted man among the DE ( I don't subcribe to the theory that he went back to spying in OOP, at least not in the conventional way) Grrr, it comes out that the parallels are there (Sirius as we all know is a wanted man too. :o)) OK, let me try again. Snape has other options available to him. If he wants to risk his life for the good of the order, he can. Sirius, thanks to Dumbledore, does not have this option in OoP. As far as we know, Dumbledore did not give Snape direct orders to stay and teach in Hogwarts, although of course, we may learn the opposite in the later books. I speculate that Snape was quite content to stay at Hogwarts if the alternative was either to die at Voldie's hands or to go to Azkaban. By the way, that is not the reason why I am making allowances as to Sirius' treatment of Kreacher. Kreacher is a horrible being and really, Sirius treated him MUCH better than Malfoys treated Dobby, IMO. Alla From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:03:04 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:03:04 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus - getting time travel terms right. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100458 > Susan: > Similar to this is the movie *Timeline*. For history to be correct, > they _have_ to go back. Won't explain any more, but if you see the > movie, it's easy to make the comparison to time travel in PoA. Neri: Slightly OT but I like to get my time-travel terms correct (it's complicated enough as it is...). The time travel in "Timeline" was actually of a different type, simpler than the POA type. In "Timeline" it was a fixed wormhole. This means that the past in the other side of the wormhole is synchronized with the present. When an hour passes in the present, an hour had also passed in the other side of the wormhole. Very much like different time zones. In the other side it is always (say) 754 years, 96 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes and 13 seconds before the present, and you can only go to this (changing) time. In contrast, in the POA time travel you can choose how many hours into the past you want to go, and you can even go there more than once, so there might be even more copies of yourself around. Hermione was actually doing this. According to Ron reading her schedule in the first day of school, she had THREE classes at the same time, so she actually was in three places, not just two, at the same time. But you are right about your point. In both these methods of time travel, the time traveler must go back in order for the "correct" history to happen. Neri From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 8 23:06:46 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:06:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] speaking of genetics, something bugs me about Narcissa Message-ID: <102.4745dfbd.2df7a086@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100459 In a message dated 6/8/2004 7:00:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: Moreover, Narcissa's sister is a brunette. Do genetics allow for full siblings to have black and blond hair? =========== Sherrie here: Yes. I'm one of five siblings - growing up (before we discovered the wonders of hair dye!), my youngest sister and I were blondes, my brother light brown, one other sister a dark true brown, and the last a VERY dark reddish-brown. (We also have eye color ranging the entire spectrum from blue to dark brown.) The mechanics of recessives and incomplete dominants can make for some interesting families... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:15:15 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:15:15 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100460 Susan You asked about what precisely Sirius said to Remus and Harry: he told Remus that he lived in his heart, not here in this flesh (I'm paraphrasing, but he did say "not in this flesh"). Then he got Dumbledore's line saying to Harry at the end: "Those who love us never really leave us", referring to James and Lily, though I imagine Sirius was given that line in light of the publication of book 5, in deliberate foreshadowing of Sirius' own death. Butperhaps this gave JKR a start, because of some other reason? I was interested in the fact that first Snape tried to protect Harry from the werewolf, and failed, then Sirius as his dog form went after the werewolf, and failed (which he did not in the book; he drove the werewolf away). In the movie, that left Harry standing in front of the werewolf in imminent danger. I wonder if Harry isn't going to have to face Lupin as a werewolf? But the movie's images are so evocative, it's hard to decide what JKR was talking about (and I'm sure she knew it): Harry in front of the clocktower, Harry in a mirror's reflection, through the glass of a window; all the shots of that giant clock which of course could mean the time turner, but also could mean Harry is living on borrowed time. The scene with Hagrid where Harry is isolated off to the background, in black, while Hermione and Ron are on the other side looking normal: that is one creepy shot. Was it just me, or did Sirius have a certain Latin warmth in the movie that he lacked in the books? Barbara, mourning one of her marmelade boys. Drive slower, guys, you may just save a life. From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 20:41:47 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:41:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First found HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100461 Okay, I'll share too. . .although I don't remember when I first started reading the books. And I don't really remember if I started reading the books first or saw the movie first. What I do remember, vaguely, is the HP books getting so much press because religious groups were saying it was anti-Christian or something. I am Jewish and not religious at all (more like agnostic/atheist) and when I started reading the books I couldn't believe all the uproar about them. If anything, I think they present a very moral, upstanding world for children to learn from. Harry always fights evil, is loyal to his friends and most of the "bad" people get punished or something bad happens to them (the Dursley's aren't getting arrested for abuse, but Vernon is put in his place over and over again and he isn't depicted as someone to respect or hold in high regard). I also have a vague memory (please correct me if I'm wrong) of hearing that religious groups thought these books were promoting a world where God is not the highest power. I'm sorry, I don't know how better to put it into words, but I never thought that was the case either. I don't ever recall reading anything in the books that was negative towards God or spirituality or anything like that. The only difference between this world and real life is the magical abilities people have. But who knows, their world could have a God too. (I personally hope it doesn't, but that's just me.) Back to my discovery. . .I absolutely love all the books. Once I started reading them, I was hooked and couldn't wait for the next one. I've read them all over and over and they kept me company and got me through some very rough times in the last couple years. I think JKR is an excellent writer and I hope these books stand the test of time like some of my other favorite children's books (Little Women comes to mind). Barbara aka bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From rusmir_music at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 20:56:59 2004 From: rusmir_music at hotmail.com (rusmirmusic) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:56:59 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak's Execution and Other Questions In-Reply-To: <20040608200430.22322.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100462 MaggieB wrote: > I remember a long time ago (years ago?) we were all discussing the time turner bit and trying to determine if we really witnessed two courses of events or if we witnessed one course of events interpreted in two different ways. In other words, was Buckbeak really executed the first time and then the time turner brought him back to life or did he not really die the first time (because HH were already there to rescue him)? > I personally believe in one timeline interpreted differently. If I recall correctly, the book hints at it, but the movie expands on that notion - with the throwing of the stones, werewolf howl etc. in addition to Harry's Patronus, which happened as one singular event interpreted differently. The "missing link" between these timelines is Dumbledore, as the splitting and reuniting of timelines happens with him. Of course, he would know that Buckbeak was freed and would suggest that to H/H in the hospital wing. However, the more interesting question is: How did Dumbledore know all of this was going to happen even before the supposed Buckbeak execution. Again, the movie makes it much more explicit, with DD stalling Fudge and others and pulling them away from the sight of Buckbeak. The book, I believe, talks about an amusement in his voice, reminiscent of that damn puzzling twinkle in the eye. So, what time does DD exist in? And how does he seem to know what will happen in the immediate future (or possibly even further)? Does time flow differently for him, is it more circular, or is he really a visitor from the future? This, I think, is the key to the books! "rusmirmusic" From cquinn at mn.rr.com Tue Jun 8 21:06:35 2004 From: cquinn at mn.rr.com (twobeaglegirl) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:06:35 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100463 Susan (teilani): > How many times would you have to turn the thing just to > hopefully arrive at the same spot? Plus, if it was that easy > to do, why didn't Harry just get a time-turner and flip it > around a few > times so that he could at least prevent Sirius' > death? That would have been much easier to do, had Harry done > it immediately. Plus, H/H used it to save him once, why not > again? 2beagles here: IMO, the time turner cannot be used to save a life that has already been taken. In PoA, Sirius had not yet been kissed when H & H went back in time to rescue him from the Dementors. I think this topic has been covered in previous posts, but it also applies to Buckbeak, who was never seen executed by H or H, and therefore the sound of his death could be explained away by the swish of an axe on the fence by an angry Fudge (I think it was him, I don't have PoA with me). In Oop, by the time Sirius fell through the veil, it was too late. Which would also explain why he couldn't go back 15 or so years and save his parents. So the timeturner could only save a life if the person using it KNEW it was going to happen. --2beagles, who has not had a chance to see PoA yet, and has had to skip reading most of the posts this week :-( From isilvalacirca at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:34:03 2004 From: isilvalacirca at yahoo.com (Lanthiriel S) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608233403.64559.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100464 --- barbara_mbowen wrote: > But the movie's images are so evocative, it's hard > to decide what JKR > was talking about (and I'm sure she knew it): > Harry in front of the > clocktower, Harry in a mirror's reflection, through > the glass of a window; all > the shots of that giant clock which of course could > mean the time turner, but > also could mean Harry is living on borrowed time. All the clocks, while of course foreshadowing the events at the end of PoA itself, seem to lend credence to theories that time travel will play an important role in the future books (coupled, also, with that strange room of time turners in the Ministry). I wonder if this could have anything to do with the prophecy and a possible difference between simply existing and really "living". I definitely think that Sirius's face in the crystal ball is a good indication that we (and Harry) haven't seen the last of him, in one form or another. Of course, that could just be my inner fangirl daydreaming. Also, I believe it was a skull ring that Draco was wearing. Could he become a Death Eater before he even leaves school? Lanthiriel S __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From isilvalacirca at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:14:57 2004 From: isilvalacirca at yahoo.com (Lanthiriel S) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608231457.73619.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100465 --- Arya wrote: > But we saw in the DoM, in the Time Room, that Time > Turners were only > one of the time-manipulating devices available. On > this topic, I > also latched onto this in the PoA movie * * * > SPOILERS* * * > * > * > * > * > SPOILERS > * > * > * > SPOILER > * > * > * > ...Dumbledore's comment to Harry and Hermione just > before he locks > them, he says, "I find it always helps to retrace my > steps" which to > me, sounds like he's pretty much saying he's > Time-turned before. > Where? When? Why? What happened? I want to know > all about his > Time-turning experiences. (And no, I don't buy the > Ron/Dumbledore > theory at all.) I'm new to this list, so I'll start off by saying hello to everyone and that I am very glad to be here. This discussion of time turners and possible time-altering scenarios in the next books has really gotten me thinking about this issue more than I ever have before. And I find myself somewhat frustrated by all of it. It's kind of a dangerous thing to introduce the possibility of time travel into a story as Rowling did with PoA, because readers - well, readers like me at least - will view almost every subsequent negative event as something that could be reversed by going back in time. The final task of the Triwizard Tournament, the debacle at the Ministry of Magic, etc. Please forgive me, as it has been awhile since I read the passages of PoA relevant to time travel and I don't have the books handy at the moment, so I can't remember exactly how strict the rules against time travel are - whether it is something forbidden or at least discouraged on legal or moral grounds - but I do know, having had my memory refreshed by seeing PoA, that it was not encouraged as a common solution to one's problems. However, I'm not clear (and it may well be because I've forgotten something) why it was okay for Dumbledore to approve of, and actually encourage, the kids to use time travel to save Sirius and Buckbeak, and yet it is not encouraged - or the possibility of it even considered - in so many other cases. For instance, if I had been Harry at the end of OotP, I would have had one overriding question for Dumbledore. Well, two actually - the first being, "Okay, Sirius fell through a veil and disappeared. Exactly how does that make him dead? Please explain"; the second being "May I borrow one of your time turners, Headmaster, so that I can go back a few hours, ignore the vision Voldemort put in my head, and thus save my godfather's life?" Why is time travel okay in PoA and not in any of the other stories? It is clearly dangerous, but how is it any less dangerous in PoA than in any other instance? Now that I think about it, it would seem to make sense for the kids to at least temporarily consider taking such an action at different points in the books, though better judgment might prevail. Any help you can give me on this one would be greatly appreciated. Lanthiriel S __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:12:08 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:12:08 -0000 Subject: mentions of Luna? In-Reply-To: <013201c44d88$f85caa50$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100466 > Mly hunchh about Luna is this. I think she may date Harry a few times, but > they both will come to the conclusion that they are better off as friends. > My other hunch is that Luna will end up with Neville, once Neville realizes > how cool she is. June > None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! > Siempre revelde!! > June There's always the possibility that J.K. Rowling will end the books with no couples together. The kids will only be 17 or so. If I were to guess potential pairings, I'd say Luna with Neville is a good bet. They're both underdogs who came through for Harry in a big way in Order of the Phoenix. They're naturally going to be thrown together as members of Dumbledore's Army. Look at the names, too. Luna "Lovegood" and Neville "Longbottom." Both are fairly comical, classic English surnames that spell out who they are as characters. Luna is a little loony, but most importantly she does "love good." And Neville may have an unusually large back side, but isn't "courage" and "staying power" one definition of "bottom?" Neville's no quitter. I think it'll be Hermione with Ron and Ginny with Harry, if all four of them survive to the end of the books. Too many hints that point in that direction. Luna and Neville are both supporting characters and good friends, but they're not leads. From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:04:25 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:04:25 -0000 Subject: Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100467 > It's magic, the exact opposite of science. Why are we trying to use > the laws of science to quantify it? How do we even know that it's > genes that determine this stuff for wizards seeing how the wizards > are capable of violating quite a few laws of physics. I mean how do > you know that it isn't the soul that determines if they're going to > have magical powers or not? > > It's not physics, it's metaphysics.- Joss Whedon Actually, I don't believe that argument. I think the magic they do probably CAN be explained by science, just as everything can, but it's a science that we can't understand. There are rules to what they do. The kids spend years studying it. Some animals see a greater spectrum of color than humans are able to, based on the structure of their eyes. There's probably something about the physical structure of a wizard or witch that makes them able to see and do things normal humans can't. It probably impacts their above- average healing ability, longer life span, maybe even their ability to eat endless amounts of sugary snacks. Think of how many calories they must burn when they do magic! I think everything can be explained by the laws of nature. To paraphrase someone I've forgotten -- there are greater things on heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy. Since they can breed with normal humans, presumably their bodies don't work too differently than ours, so magical genes must be inherited much as everything else human is. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jun 8 21:33:02 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (McGregorMax) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:33:02 -0500 Subject: Message returned for editing: Petunia's Emotional Removal WAS Re: Harry as last References: <010701c44d9a$e5e048c0$76e04a18@ec.rr.com> <010e01c44d92$ea8f2470$c227d280@ics.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <013101c44da0$2dfedcc0$76e04a18@ec.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100468 Alia wrote: > In POA when Aunt Marge is visiting she insults Harry's mother with the female dog reference. Petunia is sitting right there. Does she not care that this woman is insulting her sister?... Honestly, I think Petunia was/is so removed from her late sister, since they've been estranged for so long. So I didn't think she'd be insulted at all. I mean, she's looking after her sister's only son, but look how she allows her husband and son to treat him. And Petunia's a Dursley now, and she seems to hold all of their ideals-- well, she appears to, at least. < Just shows how despicable Petunia really is. You know in their way, the Dursleys are every bit as evil as Voldemort in the way that they treat Harry. McMax From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 8 22:35:51 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:35:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4679 References: <1086726168.18887.87252.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c44da8$f4927560$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 100469 Maggie B: I remember a long time ago (years ago?) we >were all discussing the time turner bit and trying to >determine if we really witnessed two courses of events >or if we witnessed one course of events interpreted in >two different ways. In other words, was Buckbeak >really executed the first time and then the time turner >brought him back to life or did he not really die the first >time (because HH were already there to rescue him)? >The argument was made that as HRH didn't SEE >Buckbeak executed, merely heard the thud, it was >possible that they heard some other noise and >interpreted it to mean that Buckbeak was dead. I liked >that the movie answered that question, though probably >not to the satisfaction of everyone in this group ;), by >showing the executioner taking out his frustrations on a >poor defenseless pumpkin. Christina in GA now: My son and I discussed the same thing after we read PoA and I believe Buckbeak didn't really die the first time - we just heard the thud and *assumed* it was him dying. The book also said the men come out of the cabin muttering so we don't know what they were saying either. We are seeing the same actions from a different point of view. When they return to the hospital wing they are back where they started, the circle is complete and time moves on from there. Christina in GA From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 22:21:04 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:21:04 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak's Execution and Other Questions In-Reply-To: <20040608200430.22322.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100470 >>>Maggie Barclay wrote: . . . In other words, was Buckbeak really executed the first time and then the time turner brought him back to life or did he not really die the first time (because HH were already there to rescue him)? The argument was made that as HRH didn't SEE Buckbeak executed, merely heard the thud, it was possible that they heard some other noise and interpreted it to mean that Buckbeak was dead. I liked that the movie answered that question, though probably not to the satisfaction of everyone in this group ;), by showing the executioner taking out his frustrations on a poor defenseless pumpkin.<<< When I read these scenes originally, I think my reaction was, "Oh, that's make sense!" When Harry and Hermione heard the executioner slam down the axe and they already had Buckbeak away from there, it just explained what happened in the earlier chapter (when they think Buckbeak is being executed). They also heard Hagrid (his "wild howling") afterwards, and they assumed he was expressing grief, but then when H&H went back in time, they see he was howling with tears of relief. Those parts were actually less confusing to me than the part with the Patronus. Harry knowing he could create the Patronus when he went back in time with Hermione, because he "did it before." That was weird. To answer your question, I think the book was written in a way that made me believe there was actually one timeline. The difference was in what H&H knew. Of course, if they had not gone back because of what they thought happened, then what they feared (Buckbeak being killed) would have happened after all. Does that make sense? Someone else mentioned Star Trek when discussing all this Time Turner stuff. I'm a big Star Trek fan and that reminded me of this line, from Star Trek Voyager: Capt Janeway: Ever since my first day in the job as a Starfleet Captain I swore I'm never let myself get caught in one of these god- forsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache. Barbara aka bd-bear From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 8 21:19:52 2004 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:19:52 -0500 Subject: Crookshanks Message-ID: <01e401c44d9e$568e3bb0$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 100471 Susan : >Susan now: (teilani) Absolutely! Crookshanks knew Scabbers wasn't an ordinary rat! Crookshanks saved Sirius from Harry's wrath! Crookshanks got them into the passage way under the Whomping Willow! Crookshanks is IMHO going to be very important in the next two books. Why else would JKR go to the trouble of telling us that (among other things) he's part Kneazle? > Did anyone notice a bried scene in the film where Harry is holding the pocket sneakoscope? I assume that's what it was, because none of the characters said anything about it. They put the sneakoscope in which, if it had been referenced properly, would have tied in beautifully with good old Crookshanks. Oh, wait, that's how it was in the books! Wondered why they even bothered with the sneakoscope without mentioning what it was? Danie From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 21:52:08 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100472 >>>From: annemehr [mailto:annemehr at yahoo.com] > Minor > > > > Spoiler > > > > for > > > > POA > > Actually, I took it to mean that Pettigrew had *planned* to fake his death. . .So, I think PP had a spare set of bloody robes on him to drop after shouting his line and blowing up the street. Then, when Sirius and Lupin turn him back into a man in the Shrieking Shack, he was wearing the clothes he "had on" him the whole twelve years he was a rat.<<< But if Animagi normally transform with their clothing on, wouldn't the extra set of robes be an obvious tip-off to DD or anyone else that he faked his death? Barbara aka bd-bear From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:43:29 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:43:29 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak's Execution and Other Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rusmirmusic" wrote: > MaggieB wrote: > > I remember a long time ago (years ago?) we were all discussing the > time turner bit and trying to determine if we really witnessed two > courses of events or if we witnessed one course of events interpreted > in two different ways. In other words, was Buckbeak really executed > the first time and then the time turner brought him back to life or > did he not really die the first time (because HH were already there > to rescue him)? "rusmirmusic" wrote: > > > However, the more interesting question is: How did Dumbledore know > all of this was going to happen even before the supposed Buckbeak > execution. Again, the movie makes it much more explicit, with DD > stalling Fudge and others and pulling them away from the sight of > Buckbeak. The book, I believe, talks about an amusement in his voice, reminiscent of that damn puzzling twinkle in the eye. So, what time > does DD exist in? And how does he seem to know what will happen in the immediate future (or possibly even further)? Does time flow differently > for him, is it more circular, or is he really a visitor from the future? > This, I think, is the key to the books! Aha! Is this more evidence for the REDHEAD FOREVER theory? MaggieB--who is hoping that she remembered the correct acronym and apologizes for the one-liner but must hurry back to class because she only gave her students a ten minute break--says a lot about my HP addiction, huh? From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:47:18 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:47:18 -0000 Subject: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: annemehr [mailto:annemehr at y...] > > > Minor > > > > > > > > Spoiler > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > POA > > > > > > Actually, I took it to mean that Pettigrew had *planned* to fake his > death. . .So, I think PP had a spare set of > bloody robes on him to drop after shouting his line and blowing up the > street. Then, when Sirius and Lupin turn him back into a man in the > Shrieking Shack, he was wearing the clothes he "had on" him the whole > twelve years he was a rat.<<< > > But if Animagi normally transform with their clothing on, wouldn't the extra > set of robes be an obvious tip-off to DD or anyone else that he faked his > death? > > Barbara > aka bd-bear But the only three people who knew that Pettigrew was an Animagus were James (dead), Sirius (accused of muder and of being an LV supporter) and Lupin (a werewolf and not likely to be trusted). That would have been no tip-off at all. Meri - who wonders why Pettigrew didn't kill Sirius as well as the 12 Muggles, as that would have made his plan much more sound... From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 23:53:13 2004 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:53:13 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > I had a dream last night that teenage Harry begins to remember what > happened at Godric's Hollow, and realizes that he is the one that is > telling Lily to run. (Yes, it's the Back-to-the-Future type movie > scenario.) > > I like this scenario, but, wouldn't he yell "Mum, run!" rather than "Lily, take Harry and run!"? No matter how much he looks like James, I find it doubtful that an 18-yr-old Harry looks so much like a 22 (or so)-year-old James that Lily wouldn't be like, who the heck are you??? just a thought Gorda From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 23:53:09 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:53:09 -0000 Subject: speaking of genetics, something bugs me about Narcissa In-Reply-To: <102.4745dfbd.2df7a086@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/8/2004 7:00:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > alina at d... writes: > Moreover, Narcissa's sister is a brunette. Do genetics allow for full > siblings to have black and blond hair? > =========== > Sherrie here: > > Yes. I'm one of five siblings - growing up (before we discovered the > wonders of hair dye!), my youngest sister and I were blondes, my brother light > brown, one other sister a dark true brown, and the last a VERY dark > reddish-brown. (We also have eye color ranging the entire spectrum from blue to dark > brown.) > > The mechanics of recessives and incomplete dominants can make for some > interesting families... > > Sherrie Ditto for my family: three blondes with blue eyes (two with very light eyes, one very dark) and very Aryan complexions and one with dark brown hair, green eyes and olive skin. But I like the theory of Narcissa dyeing her hair to blend in with the uber-pasty Malfoys. Sleakeazy's One Minute, Wand Applied Hair Bleach? Meri From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 8 23:54:02 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:54:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) References: Message-ID: <006f01c44db3$e0ab6470$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100477 > But if Animagi normally transform with their clothing on, wouldn't the extra > set of robes be an obvious tip-off to DD or anyone else that he faked his > death? > > Barbara > aka bd-bear > DD didn't know that the Marauders were Animagi, remember? At the end of POA he tells Harry that while he was passed out after being attacked by Dementors at the lake, he had a talk with Sirius and Sirius related the whole story to him, including the fact that they were animagi. "Remarkable feat, not least of it, keeping it from me." So DD, by his own admission, did not know that Sirius, Peter and James worked out how to transform into animals. I also think that the bloody robes were left there on purpose by Peter, just as his cut off finger. Alina. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 00:00:27 2004 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:00:27 -0000 Subject: Raven in the Tower. was Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100478 > Potioncat wrote: > > > > The one thing that jumped out at me was the > blackbirds/crows/ravens around Hagrid's Hut. I don't recall reading about them, but there was a huge flock of them. Blackbirds are an omen (I don't > remember what they mean. And I wondered if ravens would play a part later > on in the books. >> >> James wrote: > Ravens have always been closely related with death, and magpies with > bad luck. > > In Shakespeare's Macbeth, the raven was perched over Macbeths' > castle, it was a foreshadowing Duncan's murder by Macbeth and Lady > Macbeth which lead to the eventually collapse of the Scottish kingdom. > now me: oh no! one of the ravens (in the movie) snips at Harry when he's trying to get Buckbeak to move... I do confess to agree with Dan Radcliffe when he predicts his character will die by the end... but perhaps we are reading too much into this... Gorda From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 00:06:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:06:43 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain (C. Rosycross in jeans) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100479 Hans wrote: > > I hope you all have a wonderful time thinking about that! > > Thanks also to Geoff for his reaction to Iris' post. I enjoyed > reading it and am grateful for sharing his point of view. > x Potioncat: This may be getting too OT, but I'll toss this out. I once stumbled upon a Christian Harry Potter site. It was pretty good. I recall it having the word Patronus in its name, but I can't seem to find it. It might be of some interest, if anyone knows where to find it. Potioncat From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 8 21:09:38 2004 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:09:38 -0500 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) Message-ID: <01db01c44d9c$e8c02540$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 100480 Hermione did figure out what was going on though, didn't she? (I'm pretty sure it was her and not Ron) and Harry told her the truth when she asked him. Strange she couldn't find a spell to block the effects of the quill, as clever as she is! Danie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 00:16:00 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:16:00 -0000 Subject: First found HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100481 I like this thread. I was fifteen (a rather late bandwagon jumper as it were) and my mother had seen JKR on the Today show and she had bought a copy of SS for my brother (who was ten at the time). I was bored one afternoon (it was the summer vacation right before my junior year in high school, 1999) and I happened to pick it up. I wasn't hooked until I got to the last chapter of SS. I was so sure that Snape was the bad guy that when the last lines of "Through the Trap Door" said that it wasn't Snape or even LV waiting for Harry I was sure I had read it wrong. And then when it was Quirrell I was blown away. I thought, this is a kid's book and the author is putting in complex plot twists? COOL! Needless to say my mother and I were at Barnes and Noble the next day for my copy of CoS. I read PoA straight through my first weekend after starting school (ignoring, in perfect Harry and Ron fashion, all my homework) and then I thought, well it'll be only a few weeks till the next one, right? Wrong. I waited an agonizing eight months for July 2000 to roll around during which I reread all three books three times. Then GoF day rolled around. I was at the local mall at opening time to get my book (my parents flatly refusing to drive my up at midnight the night before and not yet having my drivers permit) and I spent all that Saturday devouring it. I had made it up to the Pensieve chapter by around 11 that night (almost five hundred pages in 12 hours, a personal best not yet beaten) when I discovered a massive printing error in my book, right in the middle of young Barty Crouch's trial. I got to the bottom of the left hand page, with Crouch Jr. begging for mercy in DD's memory, and then at the top of the right hand page I was back at the Quidditch world cup. Over a hundred pages of the book were missing, and as that couldn't be rectified at 11:30, the next morning we again were at the mall at opening minute for a new copy. (Incidentally, I still have the old one. The man at the bookstore had never seen anything like it. I am hoping to sell it someday and pay off my school loans!) Anyway, that night I finnished, and after that I proceeded to read anything I could that even mentioned Harry's name (and got quite well versed in the various controversies, from HP is the devil, to HP is Christ, to HP is mysoginistic). Then three interminable years, two movies, a dozen conversions of relatives and friends and one memebership to HP4GU later, I got my hands on OotP (which, by the by, I checked to make sure all the pages were in the appropriate order before leaving the store). HP also got me interested in some other classic authors: Tolkien, Alexander, L'Engle, LeGuin, etc. And now here I am, 21 and waiting with all of y'all and countless children for the next adventures of the boy wizard. Meri - who isn't honestly sure who bothers her the most, the people trying to argue that JKR is trying to convert us to her secret devil worshipping sect, or those trying to convince me that HP is an allegory for the Bible... From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 00:17:38 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:17:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: <01db01c44d9c$e8c02540$ab02a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: <002d01c44db7$2d0e91e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100482 Hermione did figure out what was going on though, didn't she? (I'm pretty sure it was her and not Ron) and Harry told her the truth when she asked him. Strange she couldn't find a spell to block the effects of the quill, as clever as she is! Danie Sherry I think both Ron and Hermione knew, and I think it was Ron who knew first. Didn't Harry tell him, at the same time Ron admitted about practicing for the Quidditch trials? But either way, they were definitely all in the common room together, when Harry was soaking his hand in that stuff to ease the pain. Sherry G From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 9 00:47:00 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:47:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100483 | From: Barbara | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 16:12 PM | | Minor | | | | Spoiler | | | | for | | | | POA | | | I know I've read a few posts on one of these lists regarding the | moment in POA when Pettigrew turns back into a rat. How when he | turns back into a human from being a rat, he has clothes on, but | when he turns back into a rat, the clothes don't go with him. I | agree that is an error in the movie, but in re-reading POA, I | noticed JKR made the same kind of error when describing how | Pettigrew escaped from Sirius. When she's in the Three Broomsticks | in Hogsmeade talking with Hagrid, Fudge, Flitwick and Rosmerta, she | mentions: | | "And Black standing there laughing, with what was left of Pettigrew | in front of him. . .a heap of bloodstained robes and a few -- a few | fragments --" [Lee]: I'm gonna surmise that maybe Peter had two sets of robes on, perhaps magically removing the blood-stained one, and cutting off the finger, then transforming in the other set. Not necessarily an error on the part of JKR, but a slight-of-hand, so to speak, unwitnessed due to the ensuing chaos of the moment. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 00:48:42 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] First found HP -was re:POA, book vs. movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040609004842.55419.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100484 Given that we've heard from fans who were originally swayed by well-meaning but uninformed Christians, I thought I'd weigh in with my "how I found Harry" story. I first heard about the HP series from my friend Barb, with whom I sing in our United Methodist church choir. Her daughter, who turned 10 the year "Sorcerer's Stone" was published in the US, was a huge fan; Barb had read the books to see what Laura loved so much, and she was hooked. When the first movie came out, she asked me if I'd read the book, since she and her sister were not sure someone uninitiated to the series could understand the film. I promised not to read it until I'd seen the movie, but then I was without anything to read at O'Hare Airport on my way to a business meeting in Los Angeles, so I broke down and picked up one of the airport paperbacks of "Sorcerer's Stone." Needless to say, I loved the first and devoured the rest, using my business trips as an excuse to buy each of the next three books. FWIW, our Sunday School has used the Harry Potter series to explore Christian teachings, and our pastor who has a young daughter has even made reference to the series in her sermons. akh, who's trying to think of a way to tie this to canon... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 00:52:40 2004 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:52:40 -0000 Subject: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100485 > > > Susan (teilani) reposnds in regard to Harry time-turning about 17 > years to GH: > Not that I don't secretly wish for this to happen, but I just don't > see how it's possible! At least, not with specifically a time- > turner. How many times would you have to turn the thing just to > hopefully arrive at the same spot? Plus, if it was that easy to do, > why didn't Harry just get a time-turner and flip it around a few > times so that he could at least prevent Sirius' death? That would > have been much easier to do, had Harry done it immediately. Plus, > H/H used it to save him once, why not again? I think if time > travel's going to play a major role in the next two books, it will > probably be through a different magical device/spell, rather than a > time-turner, which seems to be for short trips rather than long ones. > One of the things that stuck out to me about the movie, is that instead of just having two instances of the second H/H to interfere with the timeline (saving Buckbeack, the patronus) there are several (Hermione throwing stones, howling, etc). Also consider that JKR has said and Kloves and Cuaron both said, (forgive me for not having the actual quotes here) that she approved the changes to the script, as well as vetoed others. The most remarkable thing about those interferences is that they all FIT into what happened originally to the trio (before they used the timeturner). So essentially when H/H go back they are NOT actually CHANGING what happened but rather they are "retracing their steps" as movie!DD says, only we are being allowed to see what happened from a different point of view. Now I remember seeing arguments about this in this list, about whether or not timeturners actually allow the timeline to be changed. I think that they don't. I think what a timeturner does is it allows the person to be in two places at the same time and therefore affect events from that double vantage point. Therefore Buckbeak was never killed, the trio only assumed that he was, and when H/H go back in time, we are allowed to discover what actually happened. [DD knows they are out there, we see that he stalls Fudge and McNair inside Hagrid's hut to give H/H time to get away with Buckbeak (now how he knows this at this point is anyone's guess! but he clearly does)] This is why the time turner could not be used to save Sirius for example in OoTP, because we have already seen what happened. There is no ambiguity about it, as there was with Buckbeak's execution. And Harry could not use a time-turner to go back and save his parents. BUT he COULD use it to go back and come to find out that he WAS at GH that night and that his being there made things happen as they did. (anyone's head hurting yet?) Also remember that JKR has said (again, can't remember exactly where) that she would not bring dead characters back because she didn't want to sugar-coat death or give young readers who have lost someone in real life the impression that somehow dead people could be brought back. Gorda From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 00:59:02 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:59:02 -0000 Subject: POA list of difference (movie spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100486 Lanthiriel wrote: Was that Sirius' face? Oh, and don't forget the crack about James thinking he should make the change to a dog permanent. I can well believe Sirius sat there brooding in Grim Old Place about how to help Harry if he died. Not to become a ghost, but to literally leave something enchanted behind that would protect Harry. Maybe a Newfoundland puppy? ;>) But as for the timetravel: Could anyone point me to the right posts? I'm sure I've missed a lot on this theory. Barbara, who loves her three dogs, as well as all the marmelade cats. And is a fangirl, too. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 9 01:28:50 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:28:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First found HP Message-ID: <1d1.22fc644e.2df7c1d2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100487 My turn - I'm a movie convert, though I was aware of HP before that. My oldest nephew, who I'd converted to Tolkien when he was 7 or so, had gotten into Potter when the books first hit the States, & had been desperately trying to get me to read them. (His famous quote - "C'mon, Aunt Sherrie, you'll love them - the witches are the GOOD guys, & there's a character a lot like YOU!" (Yes, he meant Snape...it's SO nice to know one is loved. ) I told him that I didn't do children's books - I hadn't read them as a child, why should I start at the age of 40-some-odd? Then came New Year's Eve, 2001. My mother had had my sisters' kids all day - ALL of them (that would be seven in total, at that time - that was pre-acquisition of the three steps) - my sisters had all gone to work, while I'd taken the day off. Mom IM'd me that afternoon and bribed me to take some of them to the movies - my choices being HP or Jimmy Neutron - a no-brainer, that. So off I troop, with six kids in tow, preparing to be bored silly - but I wasn't. I was intrigued, drawn in, charmed... I left the cinema, went to the bookstore, and bought the first three books. (They were sold out of GoF, which I later acquired in the UK version on eBay.) I enjoyed the books even more than the movie - and my nephew got to say "I told you so!" Sherrie "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid.)" - The Notebooks of Lazarus Long, TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 01:35:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20040608233403.64559.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lanthiriel S wrote: > > > > Also, I believe it was a skull ring that Draco was > wearing. Could he become a Death Eater before he even > leaves school? > x Potioncat: I think I read an interview with Tom Felton (or one of the other of those 3 Slyterin stars) that it was a Slytherin Snake ring for Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle...Cuaron's idea. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 01:40:06 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:40:06 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100489 Gorda wrote: I like this scenario, but, wouldn't he yell "Mum, run!" rather than "Lily, take Harry and run!"? No matter how much he looks like James, I find it doubtful that an 18-yr-old Harry looks so much like a 22 (or so)-year-old James that Lily wouldn't be like, who the heck are you??? vmonte responds: See post 100351 I never said that Lily believes that Harry is James. If Harry does go back, I think that things are not going to work out the way he plans. What if seeing 18 year old Harry is the reason that Lily ultimately decides to sacrifice her own life to save him as a baby? Let's say that Harry goes back but does not tell his mom who he is. Who is to say that his mom wouldn't figure it out anyway. She sees someone who looks like James and has her eyes... And What if Harry bumps into unexpected people on the way. What would they make of him? Would they think he was a DE? Going back would be a bad idea all the way around. But unfortunately, if given the means and opportunity, it's definitely something Harry would do. From debcip at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 01:15:16 2004 From: debcip at yahoo.com (debcip) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:15:16 -0000 Subject: Time Turner (WAS Re: POA Prongs Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100490 Maria wrote: > The thing is, the Time-Turner doesn't send you back in time. It > creates a copy of you. The rule is, *there is only one timeline*. > > So, when Harry and Hermione used the Time-Turner in the hospital > wing, it created a second version of them (usually referred to as > Harry 2 and Hermione 2) three hours before. There are not two > timelines. There is only one, with two versions of Harry and > Hermione running around. We only go through it twice: once with > Harry 1 and Hermione 1, and the second time with Harry 2 and > Hermione 2. > > All events that happened the first time we went through this > timeline were influenced by Harry 2 and Hermione 2, because they > *were* there all along. Buckbeak never died, James never cast the > Patronus (it was Harry 2). In the movie, Hermione 2 was the one to > throw the stones and "aroo" from the very beginning. > > Harry 2 and Hermione 2 never changed the course of events: they > created it in the first place. Maria, Thank you that was a pretty good explanation, except for one thing... Now you're telling me that Buckbeak never died? What about their mission to save more than one innocent life? You have to excuse me, I am a scientist. This is a little too abstract for me. How do you know all of this? Debbie From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 9 01:30:03 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:30:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100491 >>>From: meriaugust [mailto:meriaugust at yahoo.com] > > Minor > > > > > > > > Spoiler > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > POA But the only three people who knew that Pettigrew was an Animagus were James (dead), Sirius (accused of muder and of being an LV supporter) and Lupin (a werewolf and not likely to be trusted). That would have been no tip-off at all.<<< Ooops, you're right. I keep forgetting that only a few people knew about them being Animagi. That would be the reason for leaving the robes. And for Sirius' lunatic laughter after Pettigrew escaped. Guess JKR didn't make that mistake after all, I did. :^) Barbara, who thinks that's what I get for trying to jump in and analyze with everyone else! aka bd-bear From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 01:42:42 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:42:42 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what > you think. > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed. Definite sexual tension between Hermione and Ron, which of course embarrasses them both no end. But there are signs of that in the books too. It's Ron who's jealous of Hermione and Krum, not Harry. > 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. I love this as it makes clear in a simple visual way one of the most intriguing contradictions of Snape's character; he quite genuinely hates Harry's guts, and his little friends' too, yet he is unhesitatingly ready to die in their defense. Personally I think this has more to do with him being a teacher and them being students than any debt he might owe Harry's father or Harry's own importance in the battle against Voldemort. He would probably do the same for any Hogwart's student(s). From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 01:43:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:43:04 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100493 Gorda wrote: > I like this scenario, but, wouldn't he yell "Mum, run!" rather than "Lily, take Harry and > run!"? No matter how much he looks like James, I find it doubtful that an 18-yr-old Harry > looks so much like a 22 (or so)-year-old James that Lily wouldn't be like, who the heck are > you??? x Potioncat: Lily wouldn't know who this young wizard was, just that he was offering to hold off LV while she took her son and escaped. Baby Harry would hear a voice that young Harry would assume was his father and teen Harry would go back to say the words. Lily wouldn't know who this young wizard was, just that he was offering to hold off LV while she took her her son and escaped.... Potioncat who isn't sure of all of this, but it's fun anyway. From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 01:47:18 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:47:18 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100494 Susan (teilani) wrote: Sirius touches Harry's heart before he's getting ready to fly off, > and tells him essentially the same thing. Now THIS I think is a clue. I'd love to hear thoughts on both, especially from those of you who can remember the exact words. Mike here, Sirius was basically given lines that Dumbledore spoke to Harry in the book. It's not verbatum but the idea is the same, "The ones who love us never really leave us, they live on in our hearts." Mike From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 9 01:50:38 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:50:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Turner (WAS Re: POA Prongs Patronus) References: Message-ID: <000e01c44dc4$2ae165c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100495 > Maria, > > Thank you that was a pretty good explanation, except for one thing... > Now you're telling me that Buckbeak never died? What about their > mission to save more than one innocent life? > > You have to excuse me, I am a scientist. This is a little too > abstract for me. How do you know all of this? > > Debbie > Erm, no one died during the whole sequence, not Buckbeak, not Sirius and not Harry. But if Harry and Hermione didn't go back in time, they would've changed history, Buckbeak, Sirius and likely Harry too would've all been dead. When DD tells them to save innocent lives, he's not telling them to prevent deaths that have happened, but to make sure that those deaths don't happen. Anyway, we know Buckbeak didn't die because we never saw him die the first time around. All we heard was the thump of the axe, but it was revealed later as McNair swinging at the fence in frustration. To reiterate: H&H didn't change history, they maintained it. Alina. From LadySawall at aol.com Wed Jun 9 02:02:23 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 22:02:23 EDT Subject: What Makes Them Special (was POA - Book vrs movie) Message-ID: <43.2ccc1728.2df7c9af@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100496 In a message dated 06/08/2004 2:15:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Annemehr writes: To bring this vaguely on to topic for the main list, there must be a reason (or several?) why these books mean so much to so many of us. Jo Rowling's definitely tapped into something, but I can't put my finger on it. And, why could she do it when so many other authors have never come close? --- Jo Ann: For myself, I'd say it's because she does such a good job of creating a suspension of disbelief. Her characters feel real, and the rules of her universe are consistent (if not always perfectly so.) Another thing is the complexity of the HP universe...there are very clear moral underpinnings to the story, but it never becomes preachy, and in places the struggle between good and evil gets just as muddy as it does in RL. The same facts and events change as we are presented with new information and POV's. (Which may be why you weren't caught until your second reading of SS--each time you read it, you reinterpret the events in light of what you know will be coming later. I did the same thing.) It requires the reader to think, and yet in spite of the length of the later books, it's a pretty easy read. Myself, I haven't come across a fantasy series so elaborately detailed and internally consistent in a long time. I can understand why JKR is often connected with the Inklings--Narnia, and especially Middle-Earth, had the same sort of richness to them. And it's clever, and funny. There are a a lot of familiar or half-familiar elements presented in cool new ways, and some completely original things (like the Marauder's Map) that make me laugh out loud, or just capture my imagination (like Quidditch--which is now officially my favorite sport. :) ) I've often thought of the intro to my old paperback 'Lord of the Rings' set in connection with Harry Potter, because it seems to sum up nicely the attraction that both series share. (Paraphrasing here, as the books are in storage): "Lovers of Middle-Earth want to go there. I would myself, like a shot...For in the end it is Middle-Earth and its inhabitants that we love, not Tolkien's considerable gifts in bringing them to us." Which to me illustrates the distinction between books like LotR and HP and other well-written, but much more forgettable series. It's one thing to admire a book and the skill of the person who wrote it, and something else to want to climb inside and live in it. Much as I admire and thank JKR, given the choice between meeting her in person or visiting Hogwarts, I know which I'd choose... Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 9 02:27:53 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:27:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho and question about book 6 and seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100497 | From: vecseytj | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 17:57 PM | In the lastest on-line chat, JKR said that "It" was never going to | work out for Harry and Cho and it was better it ended now. (you can | find the queston answer on Mugglenet.com. Under chat room | discussions). | | 'Cause I have to say after I read OOP I kind of thought that Harry and | Cho might still have a chance but, Jo says no.. Cho and Harry are | done. [Lee]: Honestly, I really don't think Cho and Harry would/could possibly work..._really_ work. Reason, Cho definitely has not really come to terms with Cedric's death. Until she does, if she does, then she'd be able to have a proper relationship. At this point, and it's not uncommon in RL, Cho's looking to Harry to fill a void. He's her gateway, as it were; through him, Cho can relive Cedric's life and death...again and again, constantly being reminded and not really able to move on with her live to a state of acceptance and then growth. Unfortunately, as I said, this happens in RL, too; let's say a cop gets killed; the cop's wife starts to gravitate to the partner of said cop who witnessed the occurrence. Wife may think she loves partner; partner does what he can. However, there probably can't really be love; there's too much linkage with a past that's unbelievably difficult for both of them. In the same way, Cho, who I don't think is stuck-up or anything, has to move on. Yes, she's hurting...a lot! But linking up with Harry may, in fact, harm rather than help the healing process. Harry, after all, can't be objective; he was there first-hand and has his own dilemmas to work through. I can understand both characters in OOTP. You've got a hurting Cho, seeing someone in Harry who can (if he would) talk her through the Cedric thing; but she needs to move on and can't. You've got Harry who was there at Cedric's death, relives it in horrible nightmares that force him to cry out in his sleep (OOTP Chap. 1), and is dealing with, what he feels right now, are more pressing issues. His interest in Cho was genuine; he really wanted to be her boyfriend. But he was totally unprepared for the mindset she was in. Her constant tear-jags, all the refs to Cedric, etc. And I don't know if Cho was really jealous of Hermione in the romantic jealousy way. I think Cho's actions--choosing Madam Puddyfoot's coffee shop because she had gone there with Cedric, comparing Harry to Cedric, etc.--indicate, at least to me, that she wanted to try and talk through the whole thing again. I can see where both Harry and Cho did the wrong things, said the wrong things; that's a given. But the actions make sense to me when I try to examine where their heads are, each expecting something that the other can't/isn't-ready-to give. Seriously, I'm not trying to do an analytical treatise! But I do love in-depth character analysis. Guess it goes back to my interest in psychology. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 02:30:38 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:30:38 -0000 Subject: What Makes Them Special (was POA - Book vrs movie) In-Reply-To: <43.2ccc1728.2df7c9af@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100498 Annemehr wrote previously : > To bring this vaguely on to topic for the main list, there must be a > reason (or several?) why these books mean so much to so many of us. > Jo Rowling's definitely tapped into something, but I can't put my > finger on it. And, why could she do it when so many other authors > have never come close? > --- > > Jo Ann: > > For myself, I'd say it's because she does such a good job of creating a > suspension of disbelief. Her characters feel real, and the rules of her universe > are consistent (if not always perfectly so.) > > Another thing is the complexity of the HP universe...there are very clear > moral underpinnings to the story, but it never becomes preachy, and in places the > struggle between good and evil gets just as muddy as it does in RL. The same > facts and events change as we are presented with new information and POV's. > (Which may be why you weren't caught until your second reading of SS--each > time you read it, you reinterpret the events in light of what you know will be > coming later. I did the same thing.) It requires the reader to think, and yet > in spite of the length of the later books, it's a pretty easy read. > snips Honestly, I don't know what exactly made these books soo popular around the world. I mean I know why I love "potterverse", I realise that those are works of incredibly talented writer (Duh! :o)) but during my life I read a lot of good and great books, which never got this kind of popularity. It is a mystery,which I kinda gave up of solving. I just enjoy them. Yes, the world is wonderfully built. It is so easy to imagine that magic exists in a world parallel to ours. Of course, to me those characters have strong emotional appeal. It is very important to me. I don't consider the work of fiction to be a good one, if my emotions are not involved in it. Alla From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 02:35:45 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:35:45 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Voldemort's War Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100499 Voldemort's War A filk by Gail B. done to the tune of _Mack the Knife_ I've looked all over the web for a groovy Midi for ya that swings like Bobby Darrin's version, but no such luck. This one is the best that I could find: http://members.tripod.com/~spockfu/macknife.mid Mad-Eye Moody: As the snake, babe, has sharp fangs, dear And can use them when he strikes Just as curses had Voldemort And he'd cast them as he liked When the snake wounds with his fangs, babe Deadly venom it does bear When in power was Voldemort He spread discord and despair Outside Gringott's...Diagon Alley Lay a Muggle smeared with gore...hey! They were saying, "It's a warning It was done by Voldemort!" Was a Dark Mark over a house Where Death Eaters had appeared Oh, that Dark Mark showed the carnage That's how Voldy became feared Did cha hear the Prewett brothers? They found them dead, babe But like heroes these two fought Five D.E.'s they took down with them Just to keep from being caught Mister Dearborn...Benjy Fenwick McKinnon family and Dorcas Meadowes There was terror everywhere, babe That's how Voldy's power rose! Behold, Voldemort's war! -Gail B. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 03:10:15 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 03:10:15 -0000 Subject: Inconsistency in POA book (POA-movie spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100500 > Meri - who wonders why Pettigrew didn't kill Sirius as well as the > 12 Muggles, as that would have made his plan much more sound... Maybe Pettigrew didn't kill anyone! After all he was never the brightest crayon in the box. I've always suspected a third party in that scene. Snow From LadySawall at aol.com Wed Jun 9 03:19:05 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:19:05 EDT Subject: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren Message-ID: <1ca.23020cfd.2df7dba9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100501 In a message dated 06/08/2004 2:15:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, debcip writes: Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what I don't understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the first time) see himself across the water, when he didn't come back and do it yet? Maybe I just don't understand time travel? --- Jo Ann: I would not presume to speak for Alina, Yuiren or Maria, and I apologize for butting in. But I made up a graphic that might help: http://www.geocities.com/lady_brinna/fanfiction/TimeTurn.html Hope it doesn't just make things worse... Also, re. your later question: > Now you're telling me that Buckbeak never died? What about their mission to save more than one innocent life? > You have to excuse me, I am a scientist. This is a little too abstract for me. How do you know all of this? --- Jo Ann: I believe Dumbledore was already aware that Harry and Hermione had gone (were going) back in time and that Buckbeak never died in the first place. He'd already been there to see that Buckbeak had escaped, and being Dumbledore, he seems to be more aware than most of what people around Hogwarts are up to... Time travel, though never actually accomplished in Real Life, has been a staple in science fiction/fantasy for as long as the genre has existed (and I believe it's received some serious attention from quantum physicists in recent years, as well.) Theories for how it would work have been thought up, dissected and analyzed countless times by hundreds, if not thousands of people. A search of Google should turn up any number of variations, some more plausible than others. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 03:19:36 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040609031936.97651.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100502 > Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what > I don't > understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the > first time) see > himself across the water, when he didn't come back > and do it yet? > > Maybe I just don't understand time travel? > > debcip Okay, time travel works many different ways in fiction. One thing that is common (but not universal) about time travel is that sometime the consequences of an action can be seen before the action is taken. HP seems to operate in a time travel set of rules (rules DD says Hermione and Harry must abide by) that prevent paradox. So generallly they operate under the "it did happen so it will happen" theory. If HH had not gone back then none of the events from earlier in the book would have occurred as they did. But the point is that two Harrys and two Hermiones exist at that point in time; it's just that only one Harry and one Hermione know that fact. Harry saw himself across the lake even though he hadn't gone back in time yet because future!Harry had already gone back in time. I hope this helps. Sorry if I've just confused you more. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 9 03:19:38 2004 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (Sharlene) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 03:19:38 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20040608233403.64559.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lanthiriel S wrote: > I definitely think that Sirius's face in the crystal > ball is a good indication that we (and Harry) haven't > seen the last of him, in one form or another. Of > course, that could just be my inner fangirl > daydreaming. > Hmmm...well I haven't seen the movie yet, but that'd be something I'd watch out for. Perhaps it is an indication. At the end of the OOP I kept on thinking about the mirror-like device Sirius gave Harry. Did he ever say Sirius name or nickname into it...well before he smashed it into his trunk? (From what I remember, he didn't...and broken things can be fixed I suppose.) And what if he did bring it with him? Ah I hope this isn't going to be the end of Sirius' existance in the series. :) Sharlene From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 03:48:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 03:48:13 -0000 Subject: Raven in the Tower. was Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100504 > > > Gorda: > > oh no! one of the ravens (in the movie) snips at Harry when he's trying to get Buckbeak to > move... I do confess to agree with Dan Radcliffe when he predicts his character will die by > the end... but perhaps we are reading too much into this... > Potioncat: But Harry sends it packing and saves Buckbeak...so perhaps he'll come very very close to death but survive.... Reading too much into what? ;-) Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 04:05:32 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:05:32 -0000 Subject: First found HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100505 Potioncat: Ok, me too. My fourth grader got SS for us to read together. I found it a real bear to read out loud and neither one of us could see what was so great about it. We put it down after a chapter. Several years later. The first movie was coming out and there was lots of hoopla. An adult friend talked about how much she liked the series. And I gave it another try. I really enjoyed it even though my dentist gave it away that Snape would be in future books and that the bad guy would be killed in SS.(Made the rest of the book interesting as I knew Snape wasn't the bad guy. I actually thought perhaps the dentist was wrong.) My youngest started seeing the movies...two of them now. (I never saw either until they were on video) and he wanted to have the books read to him. So for the past year or so my youngest (a third grader) and I have reading them out loud and having HP theme birthday parties. My "I hate to read" teenage son goes to the 3rd movie with us and is talking about reading the book.(he was the original 4th grader, now in 9th) My adult friend no longer reads HP because it's too dark (she never read OoP) My 3 kids think I'm obsessed and my husband thinks I have a cyber boyfriend. Potioncat (OK the short version: I heard Alan-Rickman/Snape say, "I can teach you how to ...." and I was hooked.) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 04:11:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:11:58 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: <002d01c44db7$2d0e91e0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100506 Sherry: > > I think both Ron and Hermione knew, and I think it was Ron who knew first. > Didn't Harry tell him, at the same time Ron admitted about practicing for > the Quidditch trials? But either way, they were definitely all in the > common room together, when Harry was soaking his hand in that stuff to ease > the pain. Potioncat: Maybe I'm being lazy here, but does anyone know how Hermione knew about that potion? It's also very interesting that Harry will recommend it to Lee Jordan who will tell the twins (Weasley twins not the Snape twins) about it and it will be used in one of their snackboxes. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 9 04:17:55 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:17:55 -0400 Subject: Time Turners (was Re: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: <20040608231457.73619.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100507 | From: Lanthiriel S | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 19:15 PM | Why is time travel okay in PoA and not in any of the | other stories? It is clearly dangerous, but how is it | any less dangerous in PoA than in any other instance? | Now that I think about it, it would seem to make sense | for the kids to at least temporarily consider taking | such an action at different points in the books, | though better judgment might prevail. Hi, and welcome to the list! :-) IMHO, there are a lot of places where Time-Turners might be lovely to use, but, I think, they could become a simple plot device. Okay, here we have a problem; let's use a turner, go back and fix it...Not! Besides being dangerous and risky, a device overused would make a story a lot more predictable in certain respects. Also, JKR would be violating her own rules, as it were, which emphasize there is, indeed, a danger and risk and, perhaps, ethical considerations. If a device is given rules and limits under which it should operate, then holding to these is very important if a writer wants to be consistent. As far as what Dumbledore knows, now, here we truly have a mystery man. He obviously has knowledge of many things we just can't figure about, but, I believe, there are things he doesn't know. For, obviously, if he had known all, he wouldn't have had to confess to making mistakes in his conversation with Harry in OOTP. Here's a theory: There is a Department of Mysteries at the MoM; one of the rooms in this department deals with time; we only saw it at night, the staff are gone, etc. Now, what do those Unspeakables do in this room of time? Could it be that there are some specifically trained to observe certain life courses or certain events, etc.? Hmm--talk about Big Brother watching us...through time! Anyway, I'm sure JKR will no doubt bring back something to do with time, but it's got to be either by the rules or correcting a breaking of the rules, IMHO. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who, for some reason, has been awfully long-winded/fingered this evening.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 04:26:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:26:51 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100508 x "mikefeemster" wrote: > > 29) Snape places himself between the trio and Lupin as a werewolf. Rowena wrote: > I love this as it makes clear in a simple visual way one of the > most intriguing contradictions of Snape's character; he quite > genuinely hates Harry's guts, and his little friends' too, yet he is > unhesitatingly ready to die in their defense. > > Personally I think this has more to do with him being a teacher > and them being students than any debt he might owe Harry's father or > Harry's own importance in the battle against Voldemort. He would > probably do the same for any Hogwart's student(s). Potioncat: Yes, I think you're right but I also think it may foreshadow what many of us already believe, and that is that Snape is actively looking out for Harry. I liked it on one level but I don't actually think the overall scene worked in the movie. BTW, can anyone tell me, what happens after Snape initially shields the trio? I've forgotten, in the rush of events, what causes Harry to be separated from Snape/Hermione/Ron. Potioncat who is up very late after helping a third year with homework! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 04:34:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:34:53 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren In-Reply-To: <20040609031936.97651.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > Thank you both; your answers illustrate exacly what > > I don't > > understand. How can Harry, in "real time" (the > > first time) see > > himself across the water, when he didn't come back > > and do it yet? > > > > Maybe I just don't understand time travel? > > > > debcip > Potioncat: I was once in a similar situation and a wise co-worker said to me, "Stop trying to figure it out, the reason is 'just because'...So stop looking for a logical explanation." Of course it had nothing to do with time travel. Potioncat From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 9 04:38:00 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:38:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100510 | From: bookworm857158367 | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 19:04 PM | Actually, I don't believe that argument. I think the magic they do | probably CAN be explained by science, just as everything can, but | it's a science that we can't understand. There are rules to what | they do. The kids spend years studying it. [Lee]: Sometime years ago, I read this book called "Spell Singer," I think. It was a bit on the spoofy side, but the wizard creature indicated the scientific principles involved in magic. I can sorta buy this. Consider that some people can see really well at night while others have night blindness. That's just a small example. But there are lots of other qualities some can have that others just don't...an affinity for math (which I absolutely don't have), a natural grasp of thought that makes one a great puzzle-solver, etc. And the rest of us might marvel at these gifts which seem almost supernatural or...magical. Now, consider that there might be people born with these gifts--wizard-level gifts; they have a natural grasp on abilities the rest of us don't. If we were to go back to a time in the 16th century with our knowledge and some of our every-day devices, trust me...many would call us wizards. The wizards in JKR's Potterverse have, and are trained to use, a knowledge as in advance of us as we are of the 16th century person. Now, keep the dragons away...this is only one little muggle's opinion. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 9 04:40:07 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 00:40:07 -0400 Subject: my thoughts on the Time Turner (Re: a long long thread) Message-ID: <004d01c44ddb$d786f8a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100511 NOTE: you are in danger of being Confuzzled. Turn back now if you've got no time and energy for time travelling paradoxical headaches. A rather valid point has been brought up in the span of our latest discussion about time-turners: why not just use it to fix all the mistakes? Harry could go back and save Sirius, save Cedrict, etc. etc. However, I think Rowling might have foreseen that issue arising and I think that's why she was very specific and careful when writing the end of POA. For one thing, when H&H went back in time, they didn't avert deaths that had already happened, because no death has happened. I think this comes with the issue of understanding how the time turner works in the first place. I think, that when we were reading the scene in which Harry first finds out about the time-turner and Hermione uses it to get them back three hours into the past, at that time H&H were running up to the infirmary door and Buckbeak was carrying Sirius away. In order for the Time-Turner to make sense in the context of the books, we have to assume that time and history and the potterverse are rigid, perdetermined and unchanging. Kind of takes away the whole concept of free will and choice. Or it could be on a smaller scale: Only death is rigid and irreversable and happens no matter what. If Harry was to go back to save Cedric then it would turn out like the movie The Time Machine (haven't read the novel, that's why not referring to it). Cedric would end up dying still, just a different death no matter how Harry tried to change it. Then instead of a universe with one timeline from which no one can stray, we can imagine a universe consisting of many timelines that all intersect where someone dies. Erm, I think I've confuzzled myself by this point so I'll shut up now. Alina. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 04:46:55 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:46:55 -0000 Subject: Time travel theories in HP (was: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Yuiren) In-Reply-To: <20040609031936.97651.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100512 > Rebecca: > Okay, time travel works many different ways in > fiction. One thing that is common (but not universal) > about time travel is that sometime the consequences of > an action can be seen before the action is taken. > > HP seems to operate in a time travel set of rules > (rules DD says Hermione and Harry must abide by) that > prevent paradox. So generallly they operate under the > "it did happen so it will happen" theory. > > If HH had not gone back then none of the events from > earlier in the book would have occurred as they did. Neri: Actually, it is not certain at all the JKR uses the theory of "no changing the past; no paradox". In PoA (the book, as opposed to the movie) Hermione is very afraid of changing the past. Now why would she be so afraid of it if it's impossible? Hermione claims that one of the most important wizarding laws is "Nobody's supposed to change time", and that Prof. McGonagall told her that wizards that tried it "ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake". According to the time travel theory above, it is indeed possible to kill your future self, but it is most certainly impossible to kill your PAST self. This is changing the past and leads to a terrible paradox. So who got it wrong? Did McGonagall mislead Hermione on purpose? Or did Hermione fail to understand her (a very rare event)? Or did JKR have another Flint? Or maybe it IS possible (although forbidden by law) to change the past in the Potterverse? "For details, see my published work:" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88636 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88794 (posts 88636 and 88794 if the links don't work) Neri From rarpsl at optonline.net Wed Jun 9 04:47:01 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:47:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100513 At 01:40 +0000 on 06/09/2004, vmonte wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godr: >Going back would be a bad idea all the way around. But >unfortunately, if given the means and opportunity, it's definitely >something Harry would do. Depending on how you define the rules of time travel in the Porterverse, it might now be so much a choice but a necessity for him to go back. The "rules" as shown in the movie and the book are of a world where events are fixed and must occur. Harry saving himself at the lake is a good example. Since he was saved by a later himself, he had to perform the saving from the other side or he would cease to exist. The same applies to GH. If his intervention from the future set in motion the events at GH, he MUST go back to intervene again. Failure to do so would mean his death as a baby at GH and the success of LV at that time. I can see a scenario where he has defeated LV in the present (as of book 7) and then DD tells him that he must go back in time to let LV kill him at GH so everything occurs as it did. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 9 05:38:14 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:38:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: POA List of Differences (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100514 | From: Sharlene | Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 23:20 PM | Hmmm...well I haven't seen the movie yet, but that'd be something I'd | watch out for. Perhaps it is an indication. At the end of the OOP I | kept on thinking about the mirror-like device Sirius gave Harry. Did | he ever say Sirius name or nickname into it...well before he smashed | it into his trunk? (From what I remember, he didn't...and broken | things can be fixed I suppose.) And what if he did bring it with | him? Ah I hope this isn't going to be the end of Sirius' existance | in the series. [Lee]: Yes, Harry read the note from Sirius, looked into the mirror and said loudly, "Sirius! Sirius Black!" But he knew he wouldn't get an answer because he was sure Sirius had not carried the second mirror with him. (Paraphrased, of course.) I hope Harry does do a Repaairo charm on the mirror. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 06:00:56 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:00:56 -0000 Subject: POA Time Travelling idea...and DDs omnicience Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100515 I just had a couple of thoughts while reading other posts about the time travelling that sort of welding everything together in my mind. Rather than piecing all those posts together, I'll just try and make sense here. Ill post my first thought on the subject here. Until tonight I had always read DDs line of (paraphrasing) "if all goes well, you can save more than one innocent life tonight" as referring to Buckbeak as the MORE than one. But now I realize that he had already planned to save Buckbeak and Sirius is the addition. DD knew the hippogriff was to be exocuted. He knew when and where. So he must have planned to save Buckbeak before ever going to Hagrids hut. Thats how he knew the kids would be outside and tried to give them more time. Also how he seemed to know the future. I now think that rescuing Sirius was a spur of the moment plan as DD learned the truth. His thought could have been, "well, I am already sending the kids back to save Buckbeak so why not save TWO innocent lives rather than one?!" To summarize that a little, DD planned to rescue Buckbeak before the events took place, but decided to rescue Sirius during the events. Does that solve the omnicient DD puzzle and the time turning one? Jason From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Wed Jun 9 02:13:40 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:13:40 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" > Ginger, female, US resident, almost 38 (on 17 June): > > Perhaps it is the age factor rather than the nationality? I was > surprised the first time I heard it suggested (on the list, not in > the book) that Harry should have told about the quill. I understood > him perfectly. One doesn't shout one's weakness to the world, one > takes it like a man, er, person. In a case like this, one doesn't > admit defeat no matter how bad the odds are. It isn't "manly". > Well, I can't really agree with this fully. I myself am only one year younger than you (37 on June 15), and as I said I think Harry was being an idiot. Any teacher trying that with me would have been in court so fast her/his head would have been spinning. In fact, one teacher who tried something much less severe DID end up in front of the schoolboard, and I enjoyed every minute of it (and emerged victorious - she got a formal reprimand and I got an automatic "A" and was excused from ever taking a class with her again). I tend to believe that this is not a matter of generation, or nationality, or gender. It is a matter of one's own personal psychology and beliefs about what pride consists of, what is embarassing, etc. I understand what you are saying intellectually, and I am not in any way implying YOU were an idiot, as the situation you describe was different from either mine or Harry's. However, I must admit that I have always found the "suffer in silence" attitude to be baffling in the extreme, and sometimes tinged unhealthily with masochism (once again not making judgments about your personal situation). I think I can honestly say that, in the situation that ended up with me taking a teacher before the school board, the thought of NOT complaining never even crossed my mind. Dzeytoun From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jun 9 07:33:47 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 07:33:47 -0000 Subject: Dark Future In-Reply-To: <20040607134749.52902.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100517 Paul: > 1) Harry will try consciously or unconsciously to isolate himself from the others for the fear of causing more deaths.>>> Moonmyyst: > > I think someone will die either because they are physically close or emotionally close to HP. I cannot help but wonder if a member of DA will be the one? > I agree. DA and stuff members are first in the death list. Paul: > > <<<2) Harry will be tempted to the dark arts. He will be full of rage and hatred and he will try to acquire powers and skills from every source possible in order to face LV.>>> Moonmyyst: > I can see him doing this on the sly because he feels that no one would understand. People will find out and think that he has crossed over, himself. > I don't know about that. Maybe at first he will try to be subtle. But we don't know for sure. Maybe he will face a situation that he will use the dark side to eliminate the enemy in front of others. Or maybe he will join the LV in order to save someone he loves(a moral dilemma).There are many possibilities and one is sure. HP is a person capable to do whatever is necessary in order to protect those he loves and cares. Paul: > <<<3) True feelings and desires will be revealed in the face of the nightmarish reality. I don't know the pairings, although I wish a Harry/Hermione eternal love (please I express a wish, there is no reason for dispute with the Ron/Hermione shippers).>>> Moonmyyst: > I would not be surprised if Harry is caught in a situation where he and a female (Hr/G/L) are in a life and death situation and he realizes how much loosing her would hurt. Maybe this is the person for #1 (above)? > I like the way you are thinking. Find the love of your life and loosing him/her from your worst enemy. If I were HP I would wreak havoc for that. Paul: > <<<4) Maybe we will witness Harry killing an enemy(DE or who knows) or even more as a result of overwhelming feelings(hatred or love). >>> Moonmyyst: > See #3 above or possibly BL or LM?? Also Wormtail or a new DE (like DM?) or a traitor (maybe someone he thought as a friend?) > Paul: > <<>> Moonmyyst: > You express yourself beautifully!! Much better than I do and I have been butchering the English language since I was born!! > > Thank you Moonmyyst! You are very kind. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jun 9 08:08:36 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 08:08:36 -0000 Subject: The Significance Of Time Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100518 I read the posts about the meaning of the clocks in the POA movie. I find most theories logical and I want to add one more. Maybe it's some kind of a count down for the final showdown between evil and good, between LV and HP. There is a destiny that have to be met by the people of this Universe. Time of suffer, grief, war and death and in the end time of catharsis for the survivors. The end of the tragedy. From elrond at paradise.net.nz Wed Jun 9 04:40:42 2004 From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:40:42 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First found HP References: Message-ID: <005101c44ddb$f0bcd420$40444fcb@locxvcym> No: HPFGUIDX 100519 While I had heard about the books and it would have been had to miss the first movie, I didn't actually read any of the books until someone had taken me to see the CoS movie. I then speed read the first 4 books in the 2 weeks I had off work over Chirstmas and New Years, saw the first movie on DVD and haven't looked back :) Mind you, the way I did it has given me an odd baises. I like Lockhart, simply because I like Kenneth Branagh - who was one of the main reasons I agreed to go see CoS in the first place. My mental version of Snape is also based on the movie Snape and Alan Rickman, instead of the canon book Snape, because of this Snape has become my favourite character by a long shot and the only character I came to really like, from the books alone, was Lupin. Michael From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 05:14:01 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100520 This has probably been discussed before, but does anyone else find the echoes of Camelot and the Weasley family names interesting? J.K. Rowling knows her legends and has deliberately included a lot of it in her plotting of these books. There's Arthur Weasley. King Arthur? Then there's little Ginny, whose full name we've just found out is Ginevra -- the Italian form of Guinevere. And the name Percy is derived from Percival. Sir Percival was one of the knights of the round table. According to one article I found on Sir Percival, legend has it that Percival was originally a thief who became a knight after proving his knightly qualities. He is also credited with killing the Red Knight. Hmmm. Is there any chance that that "git" Percy will ultimately redeem himself and become one of the "knights" of the shining city on the hill that one hopes will come about when Lord Voldemort is finally defeated? Will he die in battle? At the beginning of Order of the Phoenix, Harry dreams of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns. Of course this most obviously refers to them being chosen prefects over Harry and maybe, if Harry is seeing the future, to "Weasley is our King" and the winning Quidditch match. But there are definitely more subtle readings you could give that if you look. Ron as heir to his father, head of the next "ruling" family of the wizarding world? On the other hand, Ron's name means "adviser to the king," not "king." I like the Ginny/Ginevra/Guinevere connection. I've thought she'd probably end up with Harry ever since I read the first scene in the first book. The little red-headed girl running after the train, the baby sister with the crush on her brother's best friend, the damsel in distress he rescues, the girl Harry ignores -- come on. Everyone knows the ultimate ending to that fairy tale. J.K. Rowling has actually played it so casual that the archetype is glaringly obvious. But then Guinevere betrayed the king in the end and fell in love with one of his friends, so Ginny as Harry's "queen" may not be a foregone conclusion. Not all fairy tales have an entirely happy ending. Maybe Harry makes the ultimate sacrifice and dies, but isn't entirely dead. Maybe there's always the thought that he'll come back -- a la the once and future king -- from beyond the curtain if he's ever needed and Ron and Hermione will be left to enjoy the fruits of the city on the hill. I don't think a happy ending to the series is necessarily guaranteed, and that makes it enjoyable. bookworm From garybec at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 03:54:24 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 03:54:24 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak's Execution and Other Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100521 MaggieB wrote: > > ...trying to determine if we really witnessed two courses of > > events or if we witnessed one course of events interpreted > > in two different ways. In other words, was Buckbeak really > > executed the first time and then the time turner brought him > > back to life or did he not really die the first time (because > > HH were already there to rescue him)? "rusmirmusic" wrote: > > However, the more interesting question is: How did Dumbledore > > know all of this was going to happen even before the supposed > > Buckbeak execution. Again, the movie makes it much more explicit, > > with DD stalling Fudge and others and pulling them away from the > > sight of Buckbeak. The book, I believe, talks about an amusement > > in his voice, reminiscent of that damn puzzling twinkle in the eye. > > So, what time does DD exist in? And how does he seem to know what > > will happen in the immediate future (or possibly even further)? Does > > time flow differently for him, is it more circular, or is he really a > > visitor from the future? > > This, I think, is the key to the books! Becki's Thoughts; I have been thinking about that a lot lately, What is DD's part in all of this? IMO, he either has a Time-Turner himself or his powers are so advanced that somehow he can time-travel. Even looking back to the first book, everything seems in place for Harry as he needs it. The Cloak, The Mirror or Erised, the return of the Cloak from the Astronomy tower. It seems that DD looks ahead and sees what Harry needs to acomplish his task. In the GoF, at the Yule Ball, he mentions the Room of Requirement, it at first appears to be just in passing, "but Harry could have sworn Dumbledore had given him a very small wink", (GoF p418 US). I could go on, but I am afraid that it is late and I don't have the time to go through all the books to find the exact examples, but there are many. I wonder if Jo will ever fill us in on DD's full powers? Becki, (a Michigander who in just 2 short days will find herself on the other side of the pond, home to Harry et al!) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 06:30:49 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:30:49 -0000 Subject: First found HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100522 I know this post is OT (haha, I learned some initials today, was laughing my head off in the middle of library), but since so many of us are sharing our "First Found HP", I wanted to add some of my own experience.. I knew nothing about HP until I saw the trailer of "America's Sweethearts".. when Kiki (Julia Roberts) was arguing with her celebrity sister Gwen (Cath Zeta).. "You've never even read a book in your life!" - Gwen responds in disgust, "I HAVE! Harry Potter!" Although I didn't remember specifically WHAT HP was (what a laughing matter, now that i think about it) it was somehow familiar. Then I came to university, living in residence, and saw quite a few people reading the series. I was turned off by all the buzz, dismissed it saying "I'm not into witchcraft CRAP" - but at the same time asking around, 'so what's the story of HP anyways?' I also downloaded the first 2 movies using rapid-speed res-net (this was my defence - how can you EVER refuse +1MB/s ?!?!). Then my other friend very highly recommended it, telling me that she used to hold the exact same view, that the books are soo imaginative, and that CostCo has the paperback versions for REALLY cheap. So I bought all 4 in a box-set (and the 5th soon after), and haven't been able to let go ever since. Reading other experience, I was very amazed at how similar it was.. Somewhat afraid of reading about a new world? Or even afraid of admitting that we, as intelligent and educated adults, also enjoy reading a kid's book and actually discuss/ analyze it? Dunno.. >>> Meri wrote: I wasn't hooked until I got to the last chapter of SS. I was so sure that Snape was the bad guy that when the last lines of "Through the Trap Door" said that it wasn't Snape or even LV waiting for Harry I was sure I had read it wrong. And then when it was Quirrell I was blown away. I thought, this is a kid's book and the author is putting in complex plot twists? COOL! <<< Bren: That's EXACTLY how I was! It actually took me about a week to get through the first few chapters (bedtime reading only at this moment). My heart was pounding so fast by the end, in fact, the only other moment that made me jump out of bed was when Sirius turned out to be innocent after all. Oh, that and when LV came back and made Harry duel with him (that foul evil loads of cockroach!!!) Although, ashamed to admit this, the use of 'LV' reminds me of Jennifer Lopez, seeing how she is a spokeswoman for Louis Vuitton. >>> Meri: I read PoA straight through my first weekend after starting school (ignoring, in perfect Harry and Ron fashion, all my homework).. <<< Bren: That was me with the 5th book! Worse, spent the whole weekend reading it in the middle of November Midterm period.. my friend read GoF during April-May final exam period.. isn't that hilarious? What I LOVE about HP above anything else, is the fact that it got me hooked to reading again. English isn't my first language so I had been avoiding reading in *foreign language* (it just took soo long with vocabulary search and all). But after HP, I now have more confidence in reading and writing, not to mention the joy of it. Infinite thanx to JKR! (I don't think she'll get tired of hearing this?) I also praise JKR for reminding us of a very valuable, all-time- favorite theme: "Appearance vs. Reality". Though a very devoted spiritual Christian, I do not see an Anti-Christianism and worshiping- devil non-sense in HP series. Unfortunately I am no where near scholastic to provide you with good thesis on this (I think Iris' essay on Cain was beyond superb). She even said so herself that she does not believe in magic and that she is somewhat a church-goer (pardon me for lack of canon, simply can't remember where from), if one was to attack JKR openly, one really must learn a thing or two about her. Although I DID joke around that JKR had bewitched the series so that people will read them before finishing their work.. >>> Meri: .. I discovered a massive printing error in my book.. Over a hundred pages of the book were missing <<< Oh my, Oh dear, haha, how da HECK did *that* happen.. Brenda From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 9 08:49:44 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 04:49:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys Message-ID: <1e4.225dd97e.2df82928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100523 In a message dated 6/9/2004 4:38:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com writes: And the name Percy is derived from Percival. Sir Percival was one of the knights of the round table. According to one article I found on Sir Percival, legend has it that Percival was originally a thief who became a knight after proving his knightly qualities. ================= Sherrie here: Was not Percival one of the three who found the Grail? And did it not kill him, because he wasn't perfect enough? (Though Chris Rankin seems to have got a bit out of JKR which suggests that Percy rig may redeem himself...) Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shikd at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 09:07:13 2004 From: shikd at hotmail.com (heatherduncanwhitt) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 09:07:13 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100524 This is my first post here, but I must say, I have been wondering this since I read POA the first time. Why can't they hang on to these guys? The job must be Harry's...or maybe Snape will finally get it... "heatherduncanwhitt" From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 10:12:57 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:12:57 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" > Ginger, > female, US resident, almost 38 (on 17 June): > > > > Perhaps it is the age factor rather than the nationality? I was > > surprised the first time I heard it suggested (on the list, not in > > the book) that Harry should have told about the quill. I > understood > > him perfectly. One doesn't shout one's weakness to the world, one > > takes it like a man, er, person. In a case like this, one doesn't > > admit defeat no matter how bad the odds are. It isn't "manly". > > > > Well, I can't really agree with this fully. I myself am only one > year younger than you (37 on June 15), and as I said I think Harry > was being an idiot. Any teacher trying that with me would have been > in court so fast her/his head would have been spinning. In fact, one > teacher who tried something much less severe DID end up in front of > the schoolboard, and I enjoyed every minute of it (and emerged > victorious - she got a formal reprimand and I got an automatic "A" > and was excused from ever taking a class with her again). > > I > > Dzeytoun Sue: I suspect the difference between your teacher and Harry's is that DJU had been imposed on the school by the government. She had powers your teacher didn't. And Harry had his doubts about DD at the time, but also felt that he had enough worries to be going on with. DJU could not be fired or sued for assault, and she *was* in a position to get revenge and make his life even more miserable. I work in the school system. It's certainly true that kids nowadays will accuse teachers of assault/harassment, etc. at the drop of a hat, often simply because they can - and they certainly know their rights! The WW is a lot more conservative. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 10:16:54 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:16:54 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <1e4.225dd97e.2df82928@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100526 -- > Snip> > Was not Percival one of the three who found the Grail? And did it not kill > him, because he wasn't perfect enough? Nah. It killed him because he WAS perfect. (or is that "prefect"? ;-) ) From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Wed Jun 9 12:49:03 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:49:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Turner (WAS Re: POA Prongs Patronus, for Alina and Y... Message-ID: <1dc.238906af.2df8613f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100527 Think about the time loop like the TV show Quantum Leap, the science guy came up that time exists in a loop like a rubber band. And the every day plays over and over giving someone the chance to move within the space of time. Even being able to change it. So that's all H/H do is move within a loop of time. Now as many have said, what they do keeps repeating itself. Over and over. Now of course what many people said about paradox it's true if you change something and the future changes then you don't have a reason to go back. Also I love the Matrix reference because I have always wondered when we know about the future and we try to change it, do we unknowingly cause the future that we are trying to change? Danielle D [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Wed Jun 9 12:55:06 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:55:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] First found HP -was re:POA, book vs. movie Message-ID: <97.490e01b5.2df862aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100528 I had heard about HP about a year or two before I read, all I said was cool kids were reading and enjoying it. In 2001 when I was 22 I kept hearing more about because they were talking about schools and libraries trying to ban it. So I went to my library, looked for it found books 1,3,4 and got 2 on hold and went home and read them. I loved them got through the first book and was so mad that I didn't have the 2nd book and I can't read things out of order so I waited a whole week for the 2nd one and reread the first one and had nothing else better to do, so I sat down and read all 4 in one day, and have been a fanatic ever since. Danielle D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 9 12:58:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:58:18 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100529 Pippin previously: We all realize it was very hard on Sirius to be back at Grimmauld Place where he used to suffer abuse on a daily basis, even though the abusers are gone and he is now master of the house. We're inclined to make excuses for his sullen mood and his unkindness toward Kreacher on that account. What is it like for Snape to be at Hogwarts, where he suffered the same sort of thing? Alla: > By the way, that is not the reason why I am making allowances as to Sirius' treatment of Kreacher. > > > Kreacher is a horrible being and really, Sirius treated him MUCH better than Malfoys treated Dobby, IMO.< Pippin: Agreed Kreacher is horrible. Let's see, he's little and weird, doesn't take care of himself, acts like he's not right in the head, turns up where he isn't supposed to be, doesn't do his job properly, lies and steals whenever he thinks he can get away with it, uses bad language, talks back, gets angry at people who try to help him, and clings adoringly to the memory of a person who treated Sirius like dirt. Gee, parallels between Kreacher and Harry stack up like cordwood, don't they? And you've got to admit, Snape treats Harry a lot better than the Dursleys do (not that it's saying much.) This list has burned a lot of bandwidth discussing whether Snape would betray Harry. Maybe we should be asking whether Harry will betray Snape? Pippin From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Wed Jun 9 13:00:09 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:00:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First found HP -was re:POA, book vs. movie Message-ID: <1dd.2391cf49.2df863d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100530 I work at Dillards, big department store in the US. And I got to talking with a customer one, he was asking me about where to find some American Girl merchandise and I said I enjoyed reading those stories and then said I enjoyed HP and he said yeah his kids never read before HP and they love reading now, he said his family tends to read together. He was looking for new material for his daughters to read. They've gone through a lot. But here is another example of HP leading kids to read above and beyond. I've always read all my life, so to hear about kids reading in this day and age and hell amongst my own generation, is very cool. So cheers to JKR, who since my mum is from England, I have secret fantasies about being cousins and she finds me and uses me to bounce ideas of off. :) Danielle D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 13:09:46 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:09:46 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100531 Dzeytoun wrote: > Well, I can't really agree with this fully. I myself am only one > year younger than you (37 on June 15), and as I said I think Harry > was being an idiot. Any teacher trying that with me would have been > in court so fast her/his head would have been spinning. In fact, one > teacher who tried something much less severe DID end up in front of > the schoolboard, and I enjoyed every minute of it (and emerged > victorious - she got a formal reprimand and I got an automatic "A" > and was excused from ever taking a class with her again). > > I tend to believe that this is not a matter of generation, or > nationality, or gender. It is a matter of one's own personal > psychology and beliefs about what pride consists of, what is > embarassing, etc. I understand what you are saying intellectually, > and I am not in any way implying YOU were an idiot, as the situation > you describe was different from either mine or Harry's. However, I > must admit that I have always found the "suffer in silence" attitude > to be baffling in the extreme, and sometimes tinged unhealthily with > masochism (once again not making judgments about your personal > situation). I think I can honestly say that, in the situation that > ended up with me taking a teacher before the school board, the > thought of NOT complaining never even crossed my mind. > Now Ginger (again): Well, that shoots my generations theory. Geoff earlier alluded to it being a British thing. I can see that as being in line with the stereotypical "stiff upper lip" that the British are known for. In the Dakotas, (motto: where the men are men and so are the women- that's a joke, but a common one) especially in the smaller towns, we have a bit of a frontier attitude. Kind of a "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger"/"master your fears or they master you" hybrid. Self-sufficiency is a way of life. In a lot of ways, similar to the stiff upper lip. Harry, being British, didn't strike me as out of charactor for the way he acted. He just seemed British. Now I realize that this is a stereotype, and there are probably a lot of British folks who would have headed straight to DD. Harry, with his Dursley upbringing, seems the type to take it as a challenge. Maybe that's where the difference lies. What one sees as a personal challenge to be handled privately, another sees as a breach of justice, which should be handled through proper channels. Harry's case with DJU, and your case with the teacher both qualify as a breach of justice (which you won-good for you!), but Harry doesn't seem to see her acting as a teacher, but rather as a personal enemy. Maybe because she went out of her way to discredit him personally? I agree with your "suffer in silence" with regards to Harry. What else could he do but bear it with gritted teeth unless he went elsewhere to get help? Personally, I didn't suffer in silence, I fought back. It served me well in later years. I'm sure your experience has served you well. I am not afraid to fight, and you are not afraid to stand up for yourself. We both came out for the better, but what has Harry learned from the experience? That's the question that may make or break him in the future. Especially with his last interview with DD, he has set himself up to be untrusting. Considering that he started out that way, he is in for a real headache should he bite off more than he can chew (again). Only time will tell. Ginger, who has still not mastered her fear of car washes. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 13:13:13 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:13:13 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > -- > > Snip> > > Was not Percival one of the three who found the Grail? And did it not kill > > him, because he wasn't perfect enough? > > Nah. It killed him because he WAS perfect. (or is that "prefect"? ;-) ) I do believe in the usual versions that it was Galahad that died and went onto heaven with Percival staying on to become the next Fisher King(in the ones that didn't have the grail taken into heaven) and with Sir Bors the third knight returning to Camelot. From poppytheelf at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 13:37:29 2004 From: poppytheelf at hotmail.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:37:29 -0000 Subject: Update on Convention Alley and Upcoming Deadlines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100533 Convention Alley is the very first conference devoted to grown-up Harry Potter fans to be held in Canada. This HPfGU-sponsored event will be held at the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario, from July 30 to August 1, 2004. In addition to guest speakers and programming sessions presented by fans from both the academic and non-academic worlds, the conference will feature directed discussion groups as well as informal opportunities for participants to get to know one another and to enjoy the city of Ottawa. The conference includes a banquet for all participants to celebrate Harry's birthday on July 31st followed by a viewing of the new Prisoner of Azkaban movie. Steve Vander Ark will present the keynote address "The Hidden Message: It's All About Lee Jordan" at Saturday's birthday banquet. His address will discuss some of the problems of overanalyzing the Harry Potter books, and he will offer suggestions on how to distinguish red herrings from true clues. Steve is the creator and editor of the Harry Potter Lexicon website, a comprehensive reference tool on the Potterverse extensively used by both fans and scholars. Dr. Judith Robertson will present "What Happens to Our Wishes: Magical Thinking in Harry Potter" at the Sunday luncheon. Her presentation will focus on the elements in the Harry Potter series that make these books so vividly compelling to young readers. Dr. Robertson is an Associate Professor at the University of Ottawa, and has written over twenty articles and chapters that have appeared in peer-refereed sites in children's literature, English education, curriculum theory and teacher education. The conference will also feature a silent auction to benefit ALSOcares, a small non-profit community family literacy program in the Canadian communities of Lowertown/Sandyhill/Vanier. ALSOcares provides a Reading and Parents Program for families with children under 6 years of age that is designed to improve literacy for both the children and their parents. Items to be auctioned include a quilted wall hanging by Nancy Carstensen and some of the many gorgeous conference decorations. We are still seeking additional donations for the auction to benefit this worthy cause. If you are interested in contributing, please contact the Convention Alley Planning Committee at: hpottawa @ yahoo.no (without the spaces). There are also some upcoming deadlines we would like to remind you about: (1) The form to reserve a room at the University of Ottawa residence must be received by the residence by June 30, 2004. (2) The vendor agreement is also due by June 30, 2004. For more information on becoming a Convention Alley vendor, please visit: http://www.conventionalley.org/vendors.html . (3) The deadline for sponsors to have their advertisement included in the conference programme is June 30, 2004. For information on available sponsorships, please visit: http://www.conventionalley.org/sponsors.html . For more information or to register for the conference, please visit: http://www.conventionalley.org/. DISCLAIMERS: This convention is an unofficial event and is not endorsed or sanctioned by Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives. This convention also has no affiliation with HP Education Fanon, Inc. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 13:41:22 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:41:22 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: > This has probably been discussed before, but does anyone else find > the echoes of Camelot and the Weasley family names interesting? J.K. > Rowling knows her legends and has deliberately included a lot of it > in her plotting of these books. > > There's Arthur Weasley. King Arthur? Then there's little Ginny, > whose full name we've just found out is Ginevra -- the Italian form > of Guinevere. > GEO:And lets not forget the possible similarities between Ron and Sir Gawain. > I like the Ginny/Ginevra/Guinevere connection. I've thought she'd > probably end up with Harry ever since I read the first scene in the > first book. GEO:Explain to me again why exactly Harry is the King Arthur analogue here? I thought it was obvious that Arthur Weasly was the one with the whole possibility of him becoming MoM and the thing between him and Lucius like King Arthur and the so called Emperor Lucius. And even if we agree that Harry is King Arthur in this story then I'd say that Hermione fits the analogue of the LotL and possibly also that of Guinevere better seeing how she leads to the creation of the DA much like Arthur's marriage of Guinevere lead to the round table given to Arthur as a bridal present. > The little red-headed girl running after the train, the > baby sister with the crush on her brother's best friend, the damsel > in distress he rescues, the girl Harry ignores -- come on. Everyone > knows the ultimate ending to that fairy tale. J.K. Rowling has > actually played it so casual that the archetype is glaringly > obvious. No she hasn't. If the ending or Harry's fate is so obvious then I dare say quite a few of us wouldn't be reading the books. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 13:46:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:46:56 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Alla: > > By the way, that is not the reason why I am making allowances > as to Sirius' treatment of Kreacher. > > > > > > Kreacher is a horrible being and really, Sirius treated him > MUCH better than Malfoys treated Dobby, IMO.< > > Pippin: > Agreed Kreacher is horrible. Let's see, he's little and weird, > doesn't take care of himself, acts like he's not right in the head, > turns up where he isn't supposed to be, doesn't do his job > properly, lies and steals whenever he thinks he can get away > with it, uses bad language, talks back, gets angry at people who > try to help him, and clings adoringly to the memory of a person > who treated Sirius like dirt. Gee, parallels between Kreacher > and Harry stack up like cordwood, don't they? And you've got to > admit, Snape treats Harry a lot better than the Dursleys do (not > that it's saying much.) This list has burned a lot of bandwidth > discussing whether Snape would betray Harry. Maybe we should > be asking whether Harry will betray Snape? > > Pippin Sorry, Pippin, but no, "little and wierd, doesn't take care of himself, etc.,etc." are not my definitions of the horrible being, even jokingly. It is more like that - he is ready and willing to betray Sirius at the first possibility, because he adores his dead mistress, who could not stand Sirius, even though Sirius was her son. So, again I don't see any parallels between Kreacher and Harry. :o) See, betrayal to me is one of the worst sins imaginable . That is why, by the way, I cannot imagine Peddigrew redemption (only in death, maybe). To me, he committed something unforgivable. Some argued that betrayal is conditional, depending from waht sight we look at and supposedly Snape's betrayal of Voldy could also be looked at as bad thing. Yes, in real life the person, who betrayed one side, could often be a hero for another side (intelligence activities, spies, etc.) I think in these books the situation is a little different, because no matter how much "grey things" could be done by Dumbledore's side, they are still portrayed as fighting for the right thing, for the Light. So, Snape's betrayal of Voldy to me is more like Snape coming to his senses. Peddigrew on the hand is a traitor, period (to me) Anyway, I see the possibility of Snape's betraying Harry, but att he end it will turn out that Snape did not betray him at all. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 9 13:55:36 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:55:36 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Maybe I'm being lazy here, but does anyone know how Hermione knew about that potion? It's also very interesting that Harry will recommend it to Lee Jordan who will tell the twins (Weasley twins not the Snape twins) about it and it will be used in one of their snackboxes.< Maybe McGonagall told her? Or even Snape? I think Harry and Ron would curl up and die if they knew how much Hermione tells the teachers she trusts. I think McGonagall knew what Umbridge was doing with the quill. And Harry should have reported it...even if there wasn't much that could be done. But what could McGonagall, or even Dumbledore, have done then? Umbridge is far too clever to be caught in the act. If accused she would deny everything and say that Harry himself had scratched those words into his hand--which is true in a way, so I doubt even a legilimens could shake her story. Fudge would believe her since he thinks Harry is disturbed. And wouldn't he just love to question Harry under veritaserum--there's no way the Order can risk that. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 9 13:59:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:59:40 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: Dzeytoun: > Well, I can't really agree with this fully. I myself am only one > year younger than you (37 on June 15), and as I said I think Harry > was being an idiot. Any teacher trying that with me would have been > in court so fast her/his head would have been spinning. In fact, one > teacher who tried something much less severe DID end up in front of > the schoolboard, and I enjoyed every minute of it (and emerged > victorious - she got a formal reprimand and I got an automatic "A" > and was excused from ever taking a class with her again). > > I tend to believe that this is not a matter of generation, or > nationality, or gender. Geoff: At the risk of being considered rude or unfair, I have a sneaking suspicion this is an example of the US "litigation mentality" which is creeping over to the UK and has everyone looking over their shoulder. Your case may have been a perfectly legitimate one but we are gettign increasing numbers of cases where people leap for a solicitor before you can say "Harry Potter". From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:02:26 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:02:26 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >This list has burned a lot of bandwidth > discussing whether Snape would betray Harry. Maybe we should > be asking whether Harry will betray Snape? Not 'betray' exactly, at least not deliberately, but ever since OoP I've been terribly afraid that Harry's now irrational hatred for Snape is going to get the latter killed - and won't that be a lovely thing for Harry to live with? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:06:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:06:20 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > >This list has burned a lot of bandwidth > > discussing whether Snape would betray Harry. Maybe we should > > be asking whether Harry will betray Snape? > > Not 'betray' exactly, at least not deliberately, but ever since > OoP I've been terribly afraid that Harry's now irrational hatred for > Snape is going to get the latter killed - and won't that be a lovely > thing for Harry to live with? I don't know. Maybe I am not getting the correct definition of the word "irrational" (and I am NOT being sarcastic), but to me "irrational" means " not based on any reasons". I think Snape gave Harry PLENTY of good reasons to hate him for over the years. Alla From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:07:58 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:07:58 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > At the risk of being considered rude or unfair, I have a sneaking > suspicion this is an example of the US "litigation mentality" which > is creeping over to the UK and has everyone looking over their > shoulder. Your case may have been a perfectly legitimate one but we > are gettign increasing numbers of cases where people leap for a > solicitor before you can say "Harry Potter". Historically both Great Britain and the US of A have been litigation happy as far back as records have been kept, which in a way is a good thing as it meant people weren't afraid of the law. It's just in the old days the litigation tended to be about land or contracts and today it's about 'rights'. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 9 14:11:23 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:11:23 -0000 Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100541 > Gorda wrote: Snip > The most remarkable thing about those interferences is that they all FIT into what happened originally to the trio (before they used the timeturner). So essentially when H/H go back they are NOT actually CHANGING what happened but rather they are "retracing their steps" as movie!DD says, only we are being allowed to see what happened from a different point of view. >Snip> > And Harry could not use a time-turner to go back and save his parents. BUT he COULD use it to go back and come to find out that he WAS at GH that night and that his being there made things happen as they did. (anyone's head hurting yet?) Mandy here: No my heads not hurting yet as that is exactly along the lines of what I've been thinking. The Time Turner will be used, not to change time, but to ensure it happens the same way. Harry survived Godrick's Hollow because he was there as Timeturner/Harry and helped to keep himself alive. So it is imperative that DD keeps Harry alive until the moment he goes back in time to save himself. So that Voldemort is still unsuccessful in his assassination attempt on baby Harry, gets reduced to Vapormort, Harry receives the scar, has to grow up with the Dersleys, etc, etc, etc. Over and over and over again. Time hasn't been changed, but kept the same. Harry survived Voldemort's curse because he was standing in that room alive as adult Timeturner/Harry, so it was impossible for Voldemort to able to kill him. But surly the question is why? Why send Harry back to Godricks Hollow to keep himself alive into adulthood to face Voldemort in the future? Other than keeping Harry alive, which is important, but what benefit is there to the over all story line? Other than it being rather fun? How will it affect Harry finally vanquishing Voldemort? Is DD hoping that, in the looping of time back over itself, that one time through TimeTurner/Harry will be successful in defeating Voldemort completely at Godrick's Hollow and not just reducing him to dust? Practice makes perfect right? But if Harry is successful in leaving himself alive as a baby with the scar, an orphan and famous but with all threat of Voldemort gone won't we have a paradox? All other events would still be unchanged Sirius would still be wrongly imprisoned in Azkaban, Snape still a traitor to the DE? Is there some event inside this circle of looping time that has to be changed? But again if we start changing things inside the loop we again end up with a paradox. OK, now my head is aching! Oh, and here's a thought: what if Lily's charm of protection was to call the future grown up Harry back in time to her and baby Harry, making it impossible for Voldemort to kill him....but surly that won't work....now I have got a headache........ I love this whole Harry in Godrick's Hollow idea, but how and can it be used to further the saga, and not just be an interesting interlude? Am I making any sense? Any thoughts? Cheers Mandy, who's just had a horrible thought, what if Harry is stuck in this repeating looping time scenario, where every time he grows up DD hopes that Harry is strong enough to finally kill Voldemort, but every time Harry fails at Godrick's Hollow, he is doomed to go back and relive his miserable life over and over and over again until he is successful. Now that's a vision of Hell. Cheers Mandy From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:13:53 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:13:53 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I don't know. Maybe I am not getting the correct definition of the > word "irrational" (and I am NOT being sarcastic), but to > me "irrational" means " not based on any reasons". > > I think Snape gave Harry PLENTY of good reasons to hate him for over > the years. Of course he has, and Harry has given Snape good reason to dislike him too. But in Oop Harry has finally gone over the edge by displacing his own guilt over Sirius' death to Snape and hating him for that. I think we can agree that Snape not only had no responsibility for Sirius' death but went to considerable lengths to prevent it - unfortunately without success. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 9 14:16:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:16:40 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100543 > Geoff: > At the risk of being considered rude or unfair, I have a sneaking > suspicion this is an example of the US "litigation mentality" which > is creeping over to the UK and has everyone looking over their > shoulder. Your case may have been a perfectly legitimate one but we > are gettign increasing numbers of cases where people leap for a > solicitor before you can say "Harry Potter". Potioncat: US as Slytherin.....oh, Dear! Well, we have two extremes, not reporting something that should have been reported all the way to reporting every little thing, with the appropriate reaction somewhere in the middle. Someone wrote a very good post a while back, I suspect it was Geoff or Shaun, about the schoolboy code (it wasn't called that, but that was the idea) and it was about keeping quiet. Whether that's British or frontier, or warrior...there are cultural groups who approach life that way. It really explained, I thought, what was most likely going on in Harry's mind. It must have been in Lee Jordan's mind too, because he didn't seem to report it either. Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:22:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:22:06 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" <> Of course he has, and Harry has given Snape good reason to dislike > him too. But in Oop Harry has finally gone over the edge by > displacing his own guilt over Sirius' death to Snape and hating him > for that. I think we can agree that Snape not only had no > responsibility for Sirius' death but went to considerable lengths to > prevent it - unfortunately without success. Actually, no, we can't agree that Snape had no responsibility for Sirius death'. :) As I said many times, I think that Dumbledore had much larger portion of said responsibility, but Snape is guilty too, as far as I am concerned. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 9 14:30:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:32 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100545 > > Alla: By the way, that is not the reason why I am making allowances as to Sirius' treatment of Kreacher. Kreacher is a horrible being and really, Sirius treated him MUCH better than Malfoys treated Dobby, IMO.< > > Pippin: > > Agreed Kreacher is horrible. Gee, parallels between Kreacher and Harry stack up like cordwood, don't they? And you've got to admit, Snape treats Harry a lot better than the Dursleys do (not that it's saying much.) This list has burned a lot of bandwidth discussing whether Snape would betray Harry. Maybe we should be asking whether Harry will betray Snape? Alla: > Sorry, Pippin, but no, "little and wierd, doesn't take care of > himself, etc.,etc." are not my definitions of the horrible being, > even jokingly. > > > It is more like that - he is ready and willing to betray Sirius at the first possibility, because he adores his dead mistress, who could not stand Sirius, even though Sirius was her son.< Pippin: ::blinks:: But Sirius didn't think Kreacher was going to betray him. In fact, he believed that as long as Kreacher was bound as his House Elf, Kreacher *couldn't* betray him...that was why he refused to set Kreacher free. Why make allowances for Sirius on account of something that he didn't think was even possible? It seems to me Kreacher had as much right to admire Mrs. Black, who did turn against Voldemort in the end, as Harry does to admire his father, who also did some contemptible things before he died a hero's death. And don't forget, at the time Mrs. Black died, ten years before OOP, Sirius was in Azkaban as a supporter of the fiend who'd had his brother killed. She never lived to learn Sirius was innocent. Pippin From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:34:20 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:34:20 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" <> > Of course he has, and Harry has given Snape good reason to dislike > > him too. But in Oop Harry has finally gone over the edge by > > displacing his own guilt over Sirius' death to Snape and hating him > > for that. I think we can agree that Snape not only had no > > responsibility for Sirius' death but went to considerable lengths > to > > prevent it - unfortunately without success. > > > Actually, no, we can't agree that Snape had no responsibility for > Sirius death'. :) As I said many times, I think that Dumbledore had > much larger portion of said responsibility, but Snape is guilty too, > as far as I am concerned. How? for making snide remarks? (his normal behavior). As DD says Sirius is much too old to take schoolboy gibes to heart. IMO responsibility for Sirius death sets chiefly on the shoulders of the DE who killed him, with the treacherous Kreacher second, and of course Lord Voldemort who concocts the whole plot third. Harry has some responsibility for falling into the trap, but then he didn't have the information to know it was likely a trap. Dumbledore is responsible for not giving Harry that information but one can see his problem; there is no good time to tell a young boy he is doomed to kill or be killed by an evil wizard. And of course Sirius himself knew perfectly well he was taking a major risk by going along on the rescue - but understandably didn't care with Harry in danger. Come to that Lupin et-al are probably blaming themselves for letting Sirius come. Sirius was suffering from severe cabin fever and frustration over not being able to do more for the cause. This was the fault of circumstances not DD, not Harry and not Snape. It was this as well as fear for Harry that led him to put himself in harms way. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:38:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:38:11 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > Alla previously: > > Sorry, Pippin, but no, "little and wierd, doesn't take care of > > himself, etc.,etc." are not my definitions of the horrible being, > > even jokingly. > > > > > > It is more like that - he is ready and willing to betray Sirius at > the first possibility, because he adores his dead mistress, who > could not stand Sirius, even though Sirius was her son.< > > Pippin: > ::blinks:: But Sirius didn't think Kreacher was going to betray > him. In fact, he believed that as long as Kreacher was bound as > his House Elf, Kreacher *couldn't* betray him...that was why he > refused to set Kreacher free. Why make allowances for Sirius on > account of something that he didn't think was even possible? > Sirius did not set him free, because he had his doubts about Kreacher, right? In any event, I did not see anything in particularly horrible in Sirius' treatment of him. Don't get me wrong, I think that House elves should and will be free by the end of the books. But, IMO, Sirius treated Kreacher not worse than many other wisards and much better than some (Malfoys) > It seems to me Kreacher had as much right to admire Mrs. > Black, who did turn against Voldemort in the end, as Harry does > to admire his father, who also did some contemptible things > before he died a hero's death. And don't forget, at the time Mrs. > Black died, ten years before OOP, Sirius was in Azkaban as a > supporter of the fiend who'd had his brother killed. She never > lived to learn Sirius was innocent. > > Pippin We disagree here. Of course Kreacher has a right to admire Mrs. Black, but this admiration allows me to make a judgment about what kind of person Kreacher himself is. Whether Mrs. Black knew about Sirius' innocence is not very relevant, in my opinion. She treated Sirius' badly while he was a child. How old he was when he came to live with James? Sixteen? So, I don't think she would suddenly begin to love him or even like him if she learned about his innocence. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:53:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:53:00 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: Alla previously: > > > > Actually, no, we can't agree that Snape had no responsibility for > > Sirius death'. :) As I said many times, I think that Dumbledore had > > much larger portion of said responsibility, but Snape is guilty > too, > > as far as I am concerned. Rowena: > How? for making snide remarks? (his normal behavior). As DD says > Sirius is much too old to take schoolboy gibes to heart. Alla: For not resuming Occlumency lessons. For leaving Harry defenseless to Voldemort attack. For not using his bullying skills for the good purpose and forcing Harry to continue the lessons. Rowena: > IMO responsibility for Sirius death sets chiefly on the shoulders > of the DE who killed him, with the treacherous Kreacher second, and > of course Lord Voldemort who concocts the whole plot third. > > Harry has some responsibility for falling into the trap, but then > he didn't have the information to know it was likely a trap. > Alla: I am putting the blame like that: Of course Voldemort gets his fulll share of blame as number one, but if we were to distribute the blame among the good guys I would put it like that: Dumbledore - 60%, Snape - 25% and Harry - 15%. snips. > Sirius was suffering from severe cabin fever and frustration over > not being able to do more for the cause. This was the fault of > circumstances not DD, not Harry and not Snape. It was this as well as > fear for Harry that led him to put himself in harms way. I sad many many times what I think about Dumbledore's forcing Sirius to stay. I twill be a long vent if I start repeating now. :o) Alla From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:01:55 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:01:55 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" > Alla: > > For not resuming Occlumency lessons. For leaving Harry defenseless to > Voldemort attack. For not using his bullying skills for the good > purpose and forcing Harry to continue the lessons. But bullying Harry wasn't doing any good. As H himself admits he's not really working at occlumency because he *wants* to see what's behind the door - now maybe if he'd been told *why* it was so important he close his mind.... And I'm afraid I sympathize with Snape's reasons for ending the lessons. Harry knowingly invades SS's privacy in a hugely offensive way. I'd have gone ballistic too. Frankly I think poor Snape deserves some credit for not turning the kid into a spider and stepping on him. ;D From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:09:29 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:09:29 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > > Alla previously: > > > > For not resuming Occlumency lessons. For leaving Harry defenseless > to > > Voldemort attack. For not using his bullying skills for the good > > purpose and forcing Harry to continue the lessons. > Rowena: > But bullying Harry wasn't doing any good. As H himself admits he's > not really working at occlumency because he *wants* to see what's > behind the door - now maybe if he'd been told *why* it was so > important he close his mind.... > > And I'm afraid I sympathize with Snape's reasons for ending the > lessons. Harry knowingly invades SS's privacy in a hugely offensive > way. I'd have gone ballistic too. Frankly I think poor Snape deserves > some credit for not turning the kid into a spider and stepping on > him. ;D Alla: Snape gets my sympathy for the fact that he had the guts to leave Voldemort and start fighting for redemption. (Kneasy can start laughing now. :o)) I don't sympathise with him AT ALL for ending Occlumency lessons. No matter what Harry did to him , stakes were too high and he knew it. Now, we may learn that Occlumency ended for some reasons unknown to us yet, that will be different story.(Like maybe Harry already learned it or something else). With the facts I have now, I want to slap Snape when I reread those pages. Alla From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 9 15:13:20 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:13:20 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100551 > Alla wrote: > She treated Sirius' badly while he was a child. How old he was when > he came to live with James? Sixteen? > So, I don't think she would suddenly begin to love him or even like > him if she learned about his innocence. Mandy here: I disagree. It's not his innocence she would have loved, but the revelation that her son was widely believed to be the heir apparent to The Dark Lord himself! And indeed was still considered to be so, until the moment he moved the Order into her house. That would make 2 betrayals in her eyes. The first when he left home to associate with Mudblodds and muggles, and the second when she realized, as her portrait self, that the wildly held belief that he was indeed the heir to Voldemort had been nothing but a lie. We don't know how Mrs Black dealt with Sirius imprisonment, but I'm sure it stood better with her than his activities with the Order. Or maybe not, perhaps as you imply, he could do no right in her eyes. But where in the canon does it state that Mrs Black treated Sirius badly as a child? We don't know that. We know nothing of his child hood except that once Sirius reached an age when he began to express himself, probable sometime after he started Hogwarts, their relationship became full of hatred and disgust. And by 16, life at home was unbearable enough for Sirius to leave. He broke his mothers heart, just as she broke his. Mrs Blacks treatment of Sirius is directly parallel with that of Mr & Mrs Weasey's treatment of Percy. Percy was a beloved child who has betrayed his family by unwaveringly believing in only himself, regardless of what the consequences are and what his actions mean to his family. Couldn't Sirius also have been a beloved child whose rebellion lead to unbearable heartache? After all, he was the eldest son and heir to the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black. I think so. Mandy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:17:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:17:52 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Alla wrote: > > She treated Sirius' badly while he was a child. How old he was when > > he came to live with James? Sixteen? > > So, I don't think she would suddenly begin to love him or even like > > him if she learned about his innocence. > > Mandy here: > I disagree. It's not his innocence she would have loved, but the > revelation that her son was widely believed to be the heir apparent > to The Dark Lord himself! Alla snips Mandy's post, because she has to go, but still wants clarification on this point. I think you misunderstood me. I was arguing against Pippin's assertion that the fact that Sirius was innocent would have caused Mrs. Black to treat him better. I actually agree with you. I think that she would love if Sirius would have been Voldie's heir much better. Alla From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 9 15:23:56 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:23:56 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100553 > Alla > I think you misunderstood me. I was arguing against Pippin's > assertion that the fact that Sirius was innocent would have caused > Mrs. Black to treat him better. I actually agree with you. I think > that she would love if Sirius would have been Voldie's heir much > better. Apologies. I am getting carried away arguing today. Mandy :-) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 9 15:23:07 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:23:07 -0400 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher Message-ID: <49B04D4D.2BBDF4EA.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100554 >Alla: > >I am putting the blame like that: > > >Of course Voldemort gets his fulll share of blame as number one, but >if we were to distribute the blame among the good guys I would put it >like that: Dumbledore - 60%, Snape - 25% and Harry - 15%. Oryomai: I love the exact percentages! *g* At this point, I'd like to ask how Severus is to blame for Sirius' death. Is the canon their argument when Severus came to tell Harry about Occulmency? Like Dumbledore said, they're both far too old to let that get to them. Is it when Severus told Sirius to say at Grimmuald Place when Harry went to the MoM? Severus did that to keep Sirius *alive*. I'm afraid I don't see how Severus is to blame. On the subject of ending Occulmency lessons, what was Severus supposed to do? Continue to try to teach Harry with Harry dragging his feet? Alla said "stakes were too high, and he knew it". Couldn't that mean Harry, too? Harry knew how important him learning Occulmency was, yet he didn't. Severus is not completely to blame for the ending of the lessons. Harry didn't try very hard to learn. Harry didn't try to go back to the lessons. Both Harry and Severus are to blame. As I've said before, I don't think the Trio are children anymore -- the loss of innocence changed them. I think that in this looming war, they are equal with the adults they fight with. They've seen death and torture, they've seen what happens to those who try to stop Voldemort. Harry has fought and escaped the Dark Lord 3 times (I don't really count CoS or when he was a baby...he didn't fight when he was one) since he went to Hogwarts. I know that no one agrees with me on this opinion of mine. No one has to. This is always countered with "They're only teenagers!" Well, I don't believe that. Whether or not you're an adult is not just about age, it's about experience and wisdom. I think the Trio left childhood behind. Oryomai -Waiting for flames... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:33:17 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:33:17 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: <49B04D4D.2BBDF4EA.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > On the subject of ending Occulmency lessons, what was Severus supposed to do? Continue to try to teach Harry with Harry dragging his feet? Alla said "stakes were too high, and he knew it". Couldn't that mean Harry, too? Harry knew how important him learning Occulmency was, yet he didn't. Severus is not completely to blame for the ending of the lessons. Harry didn't try very hard to learn. Harry didn't try to go back to the lessons. Both Harry and Severus are to blame. What was Severus to do? I don't know for sure, but as I said witht he evidence we have - NOT what he did. > As I've said before, I don't think the Trio are children anymore -- the loss of innocence changed them. I think that in this looming war, they are equal with the adults they fight with. They've seen death and torture, they've seen what happens to those who try to stop Voldemort. Harry has fought and escaped the Dark Lord 3 times (I don't really count CoS or when he was a baby...he didn't fight when he was one) since he went to Hogwarts. I know that no one agrees with me on this opinion of mine. No one has to. This is always countered with "They're only teenagers!" Well, I don't believe that. Whether or not you're an adult is not just about age, it's about experience and wisdom. I think the Trio left childhood behind. > > Oryomai > -Waiting for flames... Why, why would I flame you? I love your posts, even though I vehemently disagree with the majority of what you write. You are MUCH more respectful to those who disagree with you than you want others to think. :o) You know my opinion on that one too. Trio are fighters, but they are indeed still teens and they cannot be expected to make the judgments of the same maturity as adults do. By the way, has Snape EVER left his chidhood behind? Alla From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 15:48:49 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:48:49 -0600 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c44e39$42059120$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > On the subject of ending Occulmency lessons, what was Severus supposed to do? Continue to try to teach Harry with Harry dragging his feet? Alla said "stakes were too high, and he knew it". Couldn't that mean Harry, too? Harry knew how important him learning Occulmency was, yet he didn't. Severus is not completely to blame for the ending of the lessons. Harry didn't try very hard to learn. Harry didn't try to go back to the lessons. Both Harry and Severus are to blame. Sherry While I am a Dumbledore supporter, I think that Dumbledore and Snape hold the highest blame for Harry and ending the occlumency lessons. Harry is 15, and nobody really explained the true reason why they wanted him to take the lessons. Looking at it the way he might, just telling him the lessons will prevent him seeing things like what happened to Arthur, isn't good enough. In his place, I might think it was good if I could see those thing, just in case something else happened to someone I care about. Nobody told him, till it was too late, that they were afraid Voldemort might implant visions or use him to spy on Dumbledore. By that time, Sirius was dead. I can't blame Snape for throwing Harry out, when he caught him looking at his memories. It was such a great intrusion. I couldn't even begin to imagine how invasive it would be for someone to look at my memories. Yet, Snape is the adult, and he should have continued the lessons. I think at the beginning of fifth year, if not before, Dumbledore should have told Harry everything. Once Voldemort had returned to his body, it wasn't time to protect Harry from the truth anymore. So, to me, he and Snape are the ones to blame for occlumency being ineffective and the lessons stopping. I think everyone involved has a little bit of blame in the death of Sirius, including Sirius, but I can't see how he would have acted any other way, having his type of personality, knowing that Harry was in danger. Sherry G From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:52:06 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:52:06 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus - getting time travel terms right. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Susan: > > Similar to this is the movie *Timeline*. For history to be > correct, > > they _have_ to go back. Won't explain any more, but if you see the > > movie, it's easy to make the comparison to time travel in PoA. > > Neri: > Slightly OT but I like to get my time-travel terms correct (it's > complicated enough as it is...). The time travel in "Timeline" was > actually of a different type, simpler than the POA type. > In "Timeline" it was a fixed wormhole. This means that the past in > the other side of the wormhole is synchronized with the present. When > an hour passes in the present, an hour had also passed in the other > side of the wormhole. Very much like different time zones. In the > other side it is always (say) 754 years, 96 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes > and 13 seconds before the present, and you can only go to this > (changing) time. > > In contrast, in the POA time travel you can choose how many hours > into the past you want to go, and you can even go there more than > once, so there might be even more copies of yourself around. Hermione > was actually doing this. According to Ron reading her schedule in the > first day of school, she had THREE classes at the same time, so she > actually was in three places, not just two, at the same time. > > But you are right about your point. In both these methods of time > travel, the time traveler must go back in order for the "correct" > history to happen. > > Neri Yeah, that last part's the point. The people in the movie, just like H/H, have to go back so history will be correct. I thought that's why the wormhole was there in the first place. And btw, Gerard Butler, (a Scot) who played Marek in the movie was MY first choice for the role of Sirius Black. ;-) Susan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 9 15:52:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:52:49 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Snape gets my sympathy for the fact that he had the guts to leave > Voldemort and start fighting for redemption. (Kneasy can start > laughing now. :o)) > > I don't sympathise with him AT ALL for ending Occlumency lessons. No > matter what Harry did to him , stakes were too high and he knew it. > > > Now, we may learn that Occlumency ended for some reasons unknown to > us yet, that will be different story.(Like maybe Harry already > learned it or something else). > With the facts I have now, I want to slap Snape when I reread those > pages. > Not laughing, just an evil chuckle. And redemption (if it happens) is still a long way off. I've been entertained by this afternoon's posts, much more fun than folk getting their knickers in a twist over the latest film. But I have to say, Alla, just what could Snape *do* when Harry won't cooperate? Imperio! him, perhaps? Harry certainly won't listen to anything Snape has to say, no matter that it's what DD wants. School discipline may be used to govern actions, but directing thoughts is something else. If Harry won't practice, won't take any notice of DD or Snape then the whole thing is a waste of time. Because basically it's all down to Harry - he's the one that has to *learn* Occlumency, no-one can force it on him. Not only that, Harry deliberately misleads Snape. He pretends that he is trying, that he does want to master the subject, when in fact the opposite is true. He wants to know more about that corridor, the door and what's behind it. So what if Voldy is strolling through his mind? It's irrelevant to Harry, Harry must be allowed to do what Harry wants to do. Anyone who tries to stop him is being unfair and unreasonable. Harry is into instant gratification and damn the consequences - they can always be blamed on someone else. Harry really isn't a very nice person in this book, but so far as he's concerned he's being perfectly reasonable and it's all somebody else's fault. I can't agree. Harry is directly culpable for the death of Sirius. Because he wouldn't listen to those in a position to know better. Kneasy From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Jun 9 16:25:13 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:25:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's Justified Not to Trust (was Harry as Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100559 wrote: > > I don't sympathise with him [Snape] AT ALL for ending Occlumency lessons. No > > matter what Harry did to him , stakes were too high and he knew it. > > > > Now, we may learn that Occlumency ended for some reasons unknown to > > us yet, that will be different story.(Like maybe Harry already > > learned it or something else). > > With the facts I have now, I want to slap Snape when I reread those > > pages. > > Kneasy then asked: > But I have to say, Alla, just what could Snape *do* when Harry won't cooperate? > Imperio! him, perhaps? > > Harry certainly won't listen to anything Snape has to say, no matter that > it's what DD wants. School discipline may be used to govern actions, but > directing thoughts is something else. If Harry won't practice, won't take > any notice of DD or Snape then the whole thing is a waste of time. Because > basically it's all down to Harry - he's the one that has to *learn* > Occlumency, no-one can force it on him. ------------- Arya: To me, the clear answer here is that Snape could have not just instructed *what* to do (clear your mind) but *how* to do it (visualize a shinyhappyplace or something) and the *why* to do it (because Voldemort may want to feed you false visions and lead you to this DoM you're dreaming about so stop wondering about your dreams). There, that helps an awful lot in my opinion. Especially the *why* of it. I don't think *that* is too much to spill. Sure Harry may want to know more but he'd still know enough to know he needed to avoid getting tricked by Voldemort. ---------------- > Kneasy wrote: > Not only that, Harry deliberately misleads Snape. He pretends that he is > trying, that he does want to master the subject, when in fact the opposite > is true. He wants to know more about that corridor, the door and what's > behind it. -------------- Arya: Harry, as I said above, has no motivation to learn this. Hell--if anything, he sees how his scar connection saved Mr. W's life and so he needs to understand why, not only is the scar connection bad but, why is it *not a good* thing! ----------- > Kneasy wrote: > So what if Voldy is strolling through his mind? It's irrelevant to Harry, > Harry must be allowed to do what Harry wants to do. Anyone who tries > to stop him is being unfair and unreasonable. Harry is into instant > gratification and damn the consequences - they can always be blamed > on someone else. > > Harry really isn't a very nice person in this book, but so far as he's > concerned he's being perfectly reasonable and it's all somebody else's > fault. I can't agree. Harry is directly culpable for the death of Sirius. > Because he wouldn't listen to those in a position to know better. ------------------ Arya: Those who know better? Like who?! Please, Harry has every reason to believe in OotP that he's got he, himself and and his wand to help him out. (And ron and Hermione.) There was no teacher to help him out when Quirrell went after the stone (McG didn't believe him and DD was almost too late). He almost got killed again by the next DADA teacher and had to do the dirty work in the CoS on his own, he's the one who saved his own life (and Sirius's and Hermione's) with the Time-turning Patronus, he was left to stumble through the TWT on his own with the only professor reallly helping him along being the one who wanted to kill him. I think you see where I am going--can you honestly say Harry has any real basis for trusting that those around him are doing everything they need to and that he can just sit back and follow along like an obedient little boy? No--if he'd done that all along, Voldemort would have been back and IMMORTAL for about four years now, Ginny would have been left to die, three people would be soulless creatures and let's face it, the HPverse would be a bit different. It's all a plot device yes, but you see, Harry has every right to believe *he* has to make his own decisions. He has every right to feel he should not take anyone's advice or instruction as gospel or truth. He's an orphan who's never had any adult figure to rely on and now you say he's not a nice person because he can't shirk off the independent survival skills he had to cultivate in order to cope through life??? No way. Harry is justified, IMO. In fact, since everyone and anyone knows Harry's life story (especially the teachers) they are guilty of even more for not trying to understand how Harry is a bit different than a normal, more trusting teen. Just my thoughts, Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Jun 9 16:28:30 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:28:30 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: <49B04D4D.2BBDF4EA.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100560 Oryomai: On the subject of ending Occulmency lessons, what was Severus supposed to do? Continue to try to teach Harry with Harry dragging his feet? Alla said "stakes were too high, and he knew it". Couldn't that mean Harry, too? Harry knew how important him learning Occulmency was, yet he didn't. (SNIPPAGE) ------------------ How do you see Harry *knowing* just how important Occlumency was? I see the lack of providing sufficient explanation and motive to learn as one of Snape's major failings. Arya From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 16:56:56 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:56:56 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100561 Kneasy: > Harry certainly won't listen to anything Snape has to say, no matter that > it's what DD wants. School discipline may be used to govern actions, but > directing thoughts is something else. If Harry won't practice, won't take > any notice of DD or Snape then the whole thing is a waste of time. Because > basically it's all down to Harry - he's the one that has to *learn* > Occlumency, no-one can force it on him. Annemehr: It's equal between the two of them, then. Harry will barely practice; Snape will barely teach. Sure, Snape fires "Legilimens" at Harry, and Harry has some success at repelling it. But all along in Potions class, Snape is very effectively sabotaging Occlumency lessons with a major increase in Potter-baiting ("Empty your mind, Potter! Oh, and another zero, then). The least he could have done would have been to keep the Harry-goading down to normal levels. Not to mention that blame for Snape goes back to their very first class. Snape can't stand rule-breaking upstarts? In general? If Snape hadn't shown a very *personal* dislike right out on his sleeve, he would have acted very differently -- and Harry would have seen him as stern and formidable, but would probably have been able to respect him. Kind of like the way he respects McGonagall, who also takes a dim view of rule-breaking and took 50 points from him in his first year for doing something Harry thought necessary. >From the very beginning, Snape deliberately antagonised the boy when he knew perfectly well how important he would be in the fight against Voldemort. Even if Snape had a good reason for that, such as protecting his cover, that's hardly Harry's fault. Kneasy: > Not only that, Harry deliberately misleads Snape. He pretends that he is > trying, that he does want to master the subject, when in fact the opposite > is true. He wants to know more about that corridor, the door and what's > behind it. Annemehr: Well, that's just to say that the very reason for Occlumency is what is making it so difficult to learn: Voldemort has *already* put ideas into Harry's head. Dumbledore and Snape are playing catch-up. Kneasy: > Harry really isn't a very nice person in this book, but so far as he's > concerned he's being perfectly reasonable and it's all somebody else's > fault. I can't agree. Harry is directly culpable for the death of Sirius. > Because he wouldn't listen to those in a position to know better. > > Kneasy Annemehr: Just to mention in passing that Harry wasn't the only one whose personality took a turn for the worse in OoP, though he had the best reasons. And, okay, I'd give Harry a *share* in guilt for Sirius' death, but not the largest one, mind. And getting back to "Harry as Kreacher" like the subject line says -- Harry's just like Kreacher 'cos they're both disobedient? That makes Percy the real hero of this story! Honestly, what good is comparing the mere actions of people, when the circumstances and motivations are all important? You can't say Wormtail and Snape are equivalent because they both switched sides, and we only approve one because we *like* him better! One turned to the good side, and that *is* good (unless we later hear of some evil motivation for Snape), and the other turned to evil and that is evil. Any way, *can* you "betray" evil? In the purest sense, betrayal seems to me to be turning against someone who has a claim on your loyalty, and I don't think evil has a true claim on *anyone's* loyalty. Therefore, say, Bellatrix turning against LV will never carry the same weight as Ron turning against Harry would. A similar analysis could be done with the other comparisons of Harry with Kreacher, except for some that don't really hold water (e.g. Harry normally does take care of himself which is why he was embarrassed when the Advance Guard showed up when he hadn't). Annemehr From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 17:00:35 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:00:35 -0000 Subject: Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100562 > Dzeytoun wrote: > > Well, I can't really agree with this fully. I myself am only one > > year younger than you (37 on June 15), and as I said I think Harry > > was being an idiot. Any teacher trying that with me would have > been > > in court so fast her/his head would have been spinning. *snip* However, I > > must admit that I have always found the "suffer in silence" > attitude > > to be baffling in the extreme,> > > Now Ginger (again): > Well, that shoots my generations theory. Geoff earlier alluded to it > being a British thing. I can see that as being in line with the > stereotypical "stiff upper lip" that the British are known for. > > In a lot of ways, > similar to the stiff upper lip. Harry, being British, didn't strike > me as out of charactor for the way he acted. He just seemed > British. Now I realize that this is a stereotype, and there are > probably a lot of British folks who would have headed straight to > DD. Harry, with his Dursley upbringing, seems the type to take it as > a challenge. > >> > Personally, I didn't suffer in silence, I fought back. It served me > well in later years. I'm sure your experience has served you well. > I am not afraid to fight, and you are not afraid to stand up for > yourself. We both came out for the better, but what has Harry > learned from the experience? That's the question that may make or > break him in the future. > > Especially with his last interview with DD, he has set himself up to > be untrusting. Considering that he started out that way, he is in > for a real headache should he bite off more than he can chew > (again). Only time will tell. > > Ginger, who has still not mastered her fear of car washes. Susan (teilani): Perhaps this is another reference to JKR liking Pink Floyd? "Quiet desperation is the English way..." ;-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 9 17:10:08 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:10:08 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Oryomai: > On the subject of ending Occulmency lessons, what was Severus supposed to do? Continue to try to teach Harry with Harry dragging his feet? Alla said "stakes were too high, and he knew it". Couldn't that mean Harry, too? Harry knew how important him learning Occulmency was, yet he didn't. (SNIPPAGE) > ------------------ > Arya: > How do you see Harry *knowing* just how important Occlumency was? I see the lack of providing sufficient explanation and motive to learn as one of Snape's major failings. < Pippin, quoting OOP === "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return--" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "*Sir?*" he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. ==== OOP ch 24. Harry is told, plainly, why it is important for him to learn Occlumency. When he is questioned afterwards as to whether he understands why it is important for him to learn Occlumency, he says he does. He lies to Snape *and* Hermione about practicing and wanting to learn it. I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the hardest things for me to deal with as a parent and a manager in RL is this kind of passive aggressive stuff. How are you supposed to motivate someone who claims that they *are* motivated and doing the best they can? What was Snape supposed to do--use the Quill? As for telling Harry how to do it, Snape tells him that it is similar to resisting the Imperius curse. As far as we know, unlike the Patronus spell, there is no mental exercise that will help you to resist Imperius. Here's how Harry resisted Imperius in GoF: "Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice" --GoF ch14. Compare that to Harry's first successful attempt to repel Snape. "*No,* said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer, *you're not watching that, you're not watching it, it's private--" --OOP ch 24 It's all a question of listening for that little voice, and it's not until Harry does that, in the Ministry of Magic when his heart speaks of seeing Sirius again, that Harry succeeds in driving Voldemort out. Granted that Dumbledore was wrong, and Harry should have been told more, but that would have entailed recognizing Harry as an adult, wouldn't it? Pippin From allison_m_otto at lycos.com Wed Jun 9 13:31:40 2004 From: allison_m_otto at lycos.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:31:40 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: >But then Guinevere betrayed the king in the end and fell in > love with one of his friends, so Ginny as Harry's "queen" may not be > a foregone conclusion. Allison: True, but you can look at the flip side too. Guinevere was, in many if not most versions of the legend, in love with Lancelot from day one. Lancelot was her rescuer on a couple of occasions. He was also the brave one, the best knight, the hero, the handsome one, etc. Guinevere's marriage to Arthur was a state affair; she sort of loved him, but she was in love with Lancelot even before she and Arthur were married. She betrayed her husband for the gorgeous hero she was in love with, and although her husband died, Lancelot lived (and Guinevere went into a convent out of guilt, and at some point Lancelot was forced to marry someone else, but let's forget that part for now). So maybe Ginny will date someone else, but ultimately (maybe even spectacularly) betray him for Harry, her hero? Of course, obviously she can't be dating Harry's best friend . . . unless it's Hermione . . . but probably not. From lmenard at shentel.net Wed Jun 9 13:59:05 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:59:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) References: Message-ID: <000b01c44e29$ef2ce8e0$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 100565 Ginger: SNIP>>>Harry, with his Dursley upbringing, seems the type to take it as >>a challenge. I always figured that Harry didn't go to DD because he ways feeling the distance DD was placing between them. When you combine his upbringing with the Dursleys and the unexplained sudden distance from DD, Harry was acting like a typical teen with an 'well, if you don't want to talk to me I won't tell you' attitude. Laura- a new to group homeschooling mom who loves Harry Potter as much (if not more) than her 4 kids in Woodstock, VA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:51:10 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:51:10 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100566 > GEO:Explain to me again why exactly Harry is the King Arthur > analogue here? I thought it was obvious that Arthur Weasly was the > one with the whole possibility of him becoming MoM and the thing > between him and Lucius like King Arthur and the so called Emperor > Lucius. > > And even if we agree that Harry is King Arthur in this story then > I'd say that Hermione fits the analogue of the LotL and possibly > also that of Guinevere better seeing how she leads to the creation > of the DA much like Arthur's marriage of Guinevere lead to the round > table given to Arthur as a bridal present. "Obvious" to me, mainly, and that's probably a poor choice of words. I guess I see elements of the Camelot legend in all the characters, but not an exact blueprint. Arthur Weasley fits because of his name; Harry because he's the lead of the series who makes the sacrifices, etc. > > > The little red-headed girl running after the train, the > > baby sister with the crush on her brother's best friend, the > damsel > > in distress he rescues, the girl Harry ignores -- come on. > Everyone > > knows the ultimate ending to that fairy tale. J.K. Rowling has > > actually played it so casual that the archetype is glaringly > > obvious. > > No she hasn't. If the ending or Harry's fate is so obvious then I > dare say quite a few of us wouldn't be reading the books. Again, "obvious" is probably a bad choice of words, but for me all the clues point toward some sort of Ginny/Harry connection -- maybe romantic, maybe tragic. I do think Ginny and her family's Camelot names are significant in some way. From bethg2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 15:53:35 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:53:35 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100567 wrote: > Come to that Lupin et-al are probably blaming themselves for > letting Sirius come. > I believe that this is going to be important in book six and maybe seven. It will change Harry's relationship with Remus, either drawing them together (I hope) or pushing them apart. With Harry to keep an eye on Remus would become more careful. If Harry pushes him away, although the end of OOTP suggests otherwise, Lupin might be more willing to take a risk that gets him killed. Of course, we still don't know where Remus was the night Lily and James died. JKR also said that we will see more of Tonks who has now seen one family member kill another. She may come into action should Neville and/or Harry decide to take on Bellatrix. Beth Gaughan From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 12:37:37 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:37:37 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100568 David: > > Geoff, long time lurker here and normally I agree with you, but > your > > last comment was out of line. The 'stand and take it' or 'you're > not > > going to get to me response' is not British or even male; it's > > personal. > Geoff: > Don't agree. Other posters have agreed with my interpretation. I also > base this on what I've seen with friends and with over 30 years of > teaching British teenagers..... When you have significant similar experience with American kids, then your assertion comparing British and American kids has statistical merit. As to the sexes, going back to story subject matter, what would Hermione have done? My impression is that her's would have been similar to Harry's in that she would have not gone crying for help. In fact from what we've seen (Rita S.), Hermione might have gone on the offensive for revenge. From nmjenson at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 17:12:56 2004 From: nmjenson at yahoo.com (nmjenson) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:12:56 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100569 Jo "mooseming" Yes its all clear now .... why *did* Lily end up with James the bully? > Not, however, because of rejection by Snape, oh no she stayed true to > type and fell for James after being rejected by ...... Vernon Dursley. > > You know it makes sense. Vernon Dursley? I never thought of it that way, but I just can't see Lily, Harry's mother, who seems to be a talented witch ... falling for a Muggle like Vernon. That's would explain why Petunia loathes Harry, possibly why Vernon treats him horribly ... but it doesn't hold up. LIke Lupin and Sirius told Harry in OotP, James matured after his fifth year. That's why she fell for him. There's a lot of change that happens between the ages of 15 and 17 ... especially with boys. From yodamarie78 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 17:44:32 2004 From: yodamarie78 at yahoo.com (Sara Dockery) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040609174432.82715.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > -- > > Snip> > > Was not Percival one of the three who found the Grail? And did it not kill > > him, because he wasn't perfect enough? > > Nah. It killed him because he WAS perfect. (or is that "prefect"? ;-) ) greatelderone wrote: "I do believe in the usual versions that it was Galahad that died and went onto heaven with Percival staying on to become the next Fisher King(in the ones that didn't have the grail taken into heaven) and with Sir Bors the third knight returning to Camelot." The only version I have here on hand is "The Once and Future King," which certainly takes some liberties with the traditional story, but in it Bors, Galahad, and Percival are able to enter the chapel where the Grail is and Lancelot has to stay behind because he isn't pure. But, to bring this back on topic what does this say about Percy, if he is based on Percival? What is the Holy Grail in the Potterverse? Am I going a little too far with this allagory? Probably, but I don't think that the Weasley's Arthurian connection can possibly be a coincidence. Yoda, your resident Arthurian Legend Geek. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 18:18:57 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:18:57 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: <002501c44e39$42059120$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > While I am a Dumbledore supporter, I think that Dumbledore and >Snape hold the highest blame for Harry and ending the occlumency >lessons. Harry is 15, and nobody really explained the true reason > why they wanted him to take the lessons. Looking at it the way he > might, just telling him the lessons will prevent him seeing things > like what happened to Arthur, isn't good enough. "K": Sherry, I'll just reply to your comments as they are the last I've read on this subject. :-) I am a big Snape fan and I also love Harry but it does no good to constantly ignore the wrong things that Harry has done. He is not perfect nor do I expect him to be so. However, the constant remarks by Harry apologists that *he's only a boy* just doesn't sit well with me. I can be a Harry apologist as much as most folks but not when it comes to overlooking his wrong deeds. Which are many, BTW. Harry is only 15 but he isn't a normal boy and he knows it. Good old Voldy wants to kill him and as Harry has met up with Voldemort a couple of times you would think Harry would listen to the advice of others but he doesn't. Harry was told by Snape exactly what Occlumency was: ~~Occlumency, Potter. The magical defense of the mind against external penetration. An obscure branch of magic, but a highly useful one." "Why do I have to study Occlu --- thing?" he blurted out. "Because the headmaster thinks it a good idea," said Snape smoothly.~~ oop/ch 24/pg 519/us Snape gave Harry important information during the very first lesson they had: ~~Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, "Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence. "And why does Professor Dumbledore think I need it, sir?" said Harry, looking directly into Snape's dark, cold eyes and wondering whether he would answer. Snape looked back at him for a moment and then said contemptuously, "surely even you could have worked that out by now, Potter? The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency ---" What's that? Sir?" "It is the ability to extract feelings and memories from another person's mind--- "He can read minds?" said Harry quickly, his worst fears confirmed. Well then, why do I have to learn Occlumency?" Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he did so. "The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence suggests that at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable --- when you are asleep, for instance --- you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. The headmaster thinks it inadvisable for this to continue. He wished me to teach you how to close your mind to the Dark Lord."~~ oop/ch 24/pgs 530-531/us Harry was told: * The usual rules did not seem to apply to him. * Curse seems to have forged some kind of connection between Harry and the Dark Lord. * The Dark Lord is highly skilled in Legilimency. * Tells Harry he is sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. * Headmaster thinks it inadvisable for this to continue. * Tells Harry when the connection appears to happen...when his mind is most relaxed and vulnerable...when he is asleep, for instance. oop/ch 24/pgs 530-531/us * Occlumency is a highly useful branch of magic. * It can seal the mind against magical intrusion and influence. oop/ch 24/pg 519/us Harry knows there is a connection with Voldemort and if someone is trying to teach him how to break that connection then he should pay close attention. Harry made the choice to ignore what people were telling him. LUPIN: ~~"Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens and we all --- Sirius included ---want you to learn to protect yourself, so work hard, all right?"~~ oop/ch 24/pg 527/us ~~But Harry, first of all, you're to go back to Snape and tell him that on no account is he to stop giving you lessons Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency!" Do you understand me? Nothing!~~ oop/ch 29/pg 672/us SIRIUS: ~~"He WHAT?" "I'm coming up there to have a word with Snape!" oop/ch 29/pg 672/us ~~Sirius wanted Harry to resume Occlumency lessons.~~ oop/ch 30/pg 681/us DUMBLEDORE: Headmaster thinks it a good idea oop/ch 24/pg 519/us "Dumbledore doesn't want you to have dreams about that corridor at all (Hermione) oop/ch 25/pg 554/us "It became a matter of even greater urgency that you should master Occlumency." (Dumbledore) oop//ch 37/pg 829/us HERMIONE: ..."Dumbledore doesn't want you to have dreams about that corridor at all ...You're just going to have to work a bit harder in your lessons." oop/ch 25/pgs 554/us ~~ Hermione nodded, apparently still lost in thought. Then, quite abruptly, she said, "But you shouldn't have seen this at all, Harry." "What?" he sad, taken aback. "You're supposed to be learning how to close your mind to this sort of thing," said Hermione, suddenly stern. "I know I am" said Harry. "But--- "Well, I think we should just try and forget what you saw," said Hermione firmly. "And you ought to put a bit more effort on your Occlumcency from now on."~~ oop/ch 26/pg 589/us ..."You are trying to block your mind, aren't you?" ..."You are keeping going with your Occlumency?" oop/ch 30/pg 682/us Sherry: > In his place, I might think it was good if I could see those >thing, just in case something else happened to someone I care >about. "K": Isn't this one of the reasons Sirius died? Harry was determined to see what was going on. He didn't want to learn Occlumency. Did Harry try as hard as he should have? ~~After a few minutes, however, he remembered that he was supposed to be emptying his mind of all emotion before he slept, as Snape kept instructing him at the end of every Occlumency lesson.~~ oop/ch 26/pg 577/us ~~"I haven't got to tell anyone," said Harry shortly. "I wouldn't have seen it at all if I could do Occlumency. I'm supposed to have learned to shut this stuff out. That's what they want."~~ oop/ch 26/pg 587/us ~~ "You're supposed to be learning how to close your mind to this sort of thing," said Hermione, suddenly stern. "I know I am" said Harry. "But--- oop/ch 26/pg 589/us ~~...and could not stop himself from dwelling on the dream in which he had seen Voldemort, though he did not bring it up with Ron and Hermione again because he did not want another telling-off from Hermione. oop/ch 26/pg 589/us ...surge of guilt ...he had not practiced Occlumency once since their last lesson oop/ch 28/pg 636/us ..."Have you been practicing?" ..."Yes," Harry lied oop/ch 28/pg 638/us ...You are trying to block your mind, aren't you?" said Hermione, looking beadily at Harry. "You are keeping going with your Occlumency?" "Of course I am," said Harry, trying to sound as though this question was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue. oop/ch 30/pg 682/us ..."But I didn't," ..."I didn't practice, I didn't bother, I could've stopped myself having those dreams oop/ch 37/pg829/us Sherry: >Nobody told him, till it was too late, that they were afraid >Voldemort might implant visions or use him to spy on Dumbledore. "K": That's not really true, as I've pointed out before. Harry was told by Snape what Voldemort might try to do from the very first lesson. Others warned him for months. Harry knew all of this but ignored Snape and the pleas of Lupin, Sirius, and Hermione to work hard at Occlumency. As Harry says: ~~The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue. oop/ch 30/pg 682/us Sherry: >Dumbledore should have told Harry everything. Once Voldemort had >returned to his body, it wasn't time to protect Harry > from the truth anymore. "K": I don't think we even know all the truth right now. I still trust Dumbledore and I'm sure there's a reason Harry isn't being told everything. Also, who says Harry didn't learn Occlumency to some extent? A D.A. lesson is in progress when Dobby comes to warn them that Delores Umbridge is coming. ~~"Umbridge?" asked Harry, horrified. "WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?" Harry bellowed. "RUN".~~ The kids are running in different directions. Draco causes Harry to fall. Umbridge brings Harry to Dumbledore's office. Can you imagine what's going through Harry's mind? The office is full of people including Dumbledore, McGonagall, Fudge, Shacklebolt, a tough- looking wizard Harry doesn't recognize and Percy. The portraits are watching. ~~ As Harry entered, a few flitted into neighboring frames and whispered urgently into their neighbors' ears. Harry pulled himself free of Umbridge's grasp as the door swung shut behind them. Cornelius Fudge was glaring at him with a kind of vicious satisfaction upon his face. "Well," he said. "Well, well, well..."~~ Wouldn't you be nervous and afraid to some extent. I imagine my mind would not be at ease but what about Harry? ~~Harry replied with the dirtiest look he could muster. His heart drummed madly inside him, but his brain was oddly cool and clear.~~ oop/ch 27/pgs 606-610/us His heart drummed madly BUT his BRAIN was ODDLY COOL and CLEAR. Maybe Harry has learned a bit more of Occlumency then even he is aware of. There is one more scene where it's possible Harry uses Occlumency. It's the scene where Bella, Harry, Voldemort, and Dumbledore are at the ministry. Sirius has just died. ~~Tall, thin, and black-hooded, his terrible snakelike face white and gaunt, his scarlet, slit-pupiled eyes staring...Lord Voldemort had appeared in the middle of the hall, his wand pointing at Harry who stood frozen, quite unable to move. "But Master - he is here - he is below -" Voldemort paid no attention. "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter," he said quietly. "You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist. His mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor.~~ oop/ch 36/pgs 811-813 After all Harry has just gone through with the Death Eaters, with Voldemort causing Harry physical pain and Harry being in a rage, Harry comes to a point where his mind is BLANK. I believe there is a lot more to Occlumency than we have been told. I think it's only the beginning. There is now a connection between Snape and Harry. How this will be used I don't know but I feel it will be important. ~~... Harry felt he was getting worse with every lesson. ...Before he had started studying Occlumency, his scar had prickled occasionally... Nowadays, however, his scar hardly every stopped prickling, and he often felt lurches of annoyance or cheerfulness that were unrelated to what was happening to him at the time, which were always accompanied by a particularly painful twinge from his scar. He had the horrible impression that he was slowly turning into a kind of aerial that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort's mood, and he was sure he could date this increased sensitivity firmly from his first occlumency lesson with Snape. "It's lessons with Snape that are making it worse," said Harry flatly. "I am working!" said Harry, nettled. "You try it sometime, Snape trying to get inside your head, it's not a bundle of laughs, you know!" "Maybe..." said Ron slowly. "Maybe what?" said Hermione rather snappishly. "Maybe it's not Harry's fault he can't close his mind," said Ron darkly. "What do you mean?" said Hermione. "Well, maybe Snape isn't really trying to help Harry..." "Maybe, he said again in a lower voice, "he's actually trying to open Harry's mind a bit wider...make it easier for You-Know---" "Shut up, Ron," said Hermione angrily.~~ oop/ch 25/pgs 553-555 ~~ "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him ---" Harry remembered Ron's thoughts on the subject and plunged on. "How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make it easier for him to get inside my ---" "I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply.~~ oop/ch 37/pg 833/us Notice Dumbledore does not tell Harry that Ron was wrong. He just says he trusts Snape. As I've said, I think the connection between Snape and Harry will come into play later on but that doesn't mean it will be in a negative way. Yes, Snape ended the lesson but maybe, just maybe, Snape had finished what needed to be done. "K" From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 9 18:22:33 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:22:33 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: snip > > By the way, has Snape EVER left his chidhood behind? > > > Alla What an interesting question! This has helped me with some things I've been thinking about for the last couple of days. I think you have provided the missing link which was causing me grief. The thoughts started along the lines of something big had to have happened to James and Lily between years 5 (Snape's worst memory) and year 7 to change relationship dynamics so that James stops being a brat, Lily and James SHIP (can shipping be used as a verb like this?) and James becomes head boy. As seen in previous threads there is a strong parallel between HRH et al and the marauders et al so I began to speculate that something will happen in year six to HRH and co which will change their relationship dynamics (and possibly lead to Seer!Ron headboy, H/R ship in book 7) and specifically lead to a more brat like Harry, the reverse/negative of James as it were. As I thought along these lines it occurred to me that Snape would be present and possibly a participant in both of these changes in character and then I began to wonder why? ArrestedDevelopment !Snape is a useful tool to create a living bridge between events in the past and current events, he can carry the baggage, an emotional porter through time as it were. Snape's character is also by way of a bridge in that he shares many experiences with both Tom and Harry, has worked for both sides, and (as proved by extended discussion on this site) is not easily classified as good or bad. Snape hasn't left Hogwart's nor the experiences of his childhood there, his continued connection to the past is responsible for some very bad choices and some less than noble behaviour. He can't see Harry for what he is, only as the son of James, not even the son of Lily. So there he is, Snape, a living, breathing (or not if vamp!Snape), walking example to Harry of what happens if you can't forgive and move on. The reflection of himself that Harry has to see to make the best choice when the time comes, and when the time comes I believe Snape will be there. Why? Because Snape was there when Harry's parents were killed (ok ok making it up now but bear with me) . Quote from POA (my capitals) "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! YOU'D HAVE DIED LIKE YOUR FATHER, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black" Snape saw James reaction to the news he'd been betrayed (mistakenly thinking, as everyone did, the betrayer was Black.) So what if Snape came to warn the Potters and James didn't believe him, not because he was too arrogant but because he couldn't see that Snape had the capability to change. James is then partly responsible for Lily's and his own death because he like Snape couldn't move on and believe in people. The events in Godric's hollow, Snape's role and James' role, will be a primary motivator in the choices Harry has to make in his final showdown with the Voldybeast. Critically Harry will have to see the similarity between Snape and James, let go of the past and see people's ability to change, something Lily could see all along, something that marks you as a grown up. Will Snape finally grow up too? Tom Riddle didn't and look what happened to him - is this Snape's second chance? Jo From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 9 18:45:14 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:45:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Genetics in the wizarding world. Is wizarding a genetic or recessive trait? References: <1086726168.18887.87252.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c44e51$e7683420$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 100573 bookworm wrote: >If Filch is a Squib who can't do magic, for instance, as noted in >the book, how can he talk to his magical cat Mrs. Norris? Did I miss >some reference in the book? Is he just a very weak wizard who didn't >have enough talent to be trained at Hogwarts? Although I'm no geneticist, it does seem to me that the (admittedly few) Squibs we've encountered have certain abilities over and above those of ordinary Muggles. As you rightly say, communication with cats seems to be one of them. An ability to perceive the magical world seems to be another (Mrs Figg can see the dementors, Filch can use the Room of Requirement and circumnavigate Hogwarts). Which in turn suggests that there are actually _three_ types of human beings in the Potterverse, rather than two. >My working theory is that wizarding must be a recessive gene and the >non-magic gene is dominant. The so called "pure blood" families, >like the Weasleys or the Blacks, all have members who carry only >wizarding genes. There's no taint of Muggle blood. Probably is if you go back far enough, no one would have bothered about their bloodlines when humans lived in caves! One interesting point is that it _seems_ that in a mixed relationship, the children are more likely to be born with the wizarding gene than without. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jun 9 18:52:39 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:52:39 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Movie discussion reminder and first introductions to HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100574 Greetings from Hexquarters! Movie mania has hit HPfGU and three of our public lists are now discussing PoA. For the benefit of our newer members who may be getting slightly confused about what is allowed on this list, we would like to clarify that Main List posts should be canon based. We don't ban reference to the movies, but we do ask that they are not the prime focus of messages. This particular movie with Alfonso Cuaron's new vision of the Potterverse has stirred up a fair degree of controversy and we recognise that many posters who do not normally take part in Movie discussions have felt that they wish to express their feelings. Messages which reference the new movie in this way in the context of a discussion of how individual readers interpret JKR's imaginary world are quite within the scope of this list. On the other hand, posts which discuss individual viewer's likes and dislikes regarding the movie or points which have no canon relevance whatsoever (e.g. the identification of characters in the movie) belong, under our current conventions, on the Movie List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ A grey area is that inspired by JKR's quote, "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Obviously, we do allow posters to make their own predictions about future developments, but please try to ground these within canon. If you wish to suggest that a particular feature of the movie is one of these "deliberate clues", then please try to demonstrate how it would fit in with existing canon as we would expect of one of your own original predictions, rather that treating the movie as canon evidence itself. As this movie has stimulated so much discussion we have decided to call an amnesty on movie discussion until midnight, Sunday night BST (that's UK time). Please try to keep to keep the thrust of messages canon based until that point and divert completely movie related posts to the movie List, or to OTC http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ where discussion is also taking place. From Monday, we will be deleting any movie related messages which are not canon-based and returning them for posting to the appropriate list. Personal experiences relating to posters first introduction to HP are very interesting. However, they are rarely about the canon of HP, and for this reason, we would be grateful if the "First Found HP" thread be transferred to the OTC list, where such discussions are welcomed. Thank you for your attention! The List Elves From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 18:54:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:54:49 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > > Sherry, I'll just reply to your comments as they are the last I've > read on this subject. :-) > > I am a big Snape fan and I also love Harry but it does no good to > constantly ignore the wrong things that Harry has done. He is not > perfect nor do I expect him to be so. However, the constant remarks > by Harry apologists that *he's only a boy* just doesn't sit well > with me. I can be a Harry apologist as much as most folks but not > when it comes to overlooking his wrong deeds. Which are many, BTW. Well, I am not Sherry. But I am going to reply anyway. Harry's faults, hmmm. Yes, he has quite a few. Not that I am arguing against it. It is just to me any of Harry's wrongdoings pales significantly in comparison to Snape's. So, I can be Snape's apologist too, but not when it comes to verlooking his wrong deeds. How about that? :o) Honestly, I can be Snape apologist, if I try.....really hard. :o) > Harry is only 15 but he isn't a normal boy and he knows it. Good old > Voldy wants to kill him and as Harry has met up with Voldemort a > couple of times you would think Harry would listen to the advice of > others but he doesn't. > In the beginninhg of OoP Harry knows that Voldie tried to kill him a few times, he has no idea why. > Harry was told by Snape exactly what Occlumency was: > > ~~Occlumency, Potter. The magical defense of the mind against > external penetration. An obscure branch of magic, but a highly > useful one." > > "Why do I have to study Occlu --- thing?" he blurted out. > > "Because the headmaster thinks it a good idea," said Snape > smoothly.~~ > oop/ch 24/pg 519/us Let's see. Dumbledore tries to keep a distance from Harry all year for reason Harry desperately tries to find out. He is NOT given such information and now his most hated teacher tells him "Headmaster thinks it is a good idea" I don't know if I will be very receptive in such situation, to tell you the truth. > snips quote about Snape telling Harry about Occlumency. > > Harry was told: > > * The usual rules did not seem to apply to him. > * Curse seems to have forged some kind of connection between Harry > and the Dark Lord. > * The Dark Lord is highly skilled in Legilimency. > * Tells Harry he is sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. > * Headmaster thinks it inadvisable for this to continue. > * Tells Harry when the connection appears to happen...when his mind > is most relaxed and vulnerable...when he is asleep, for instance. > oop/ch 24/pgs 530-531/us > > * Occlumency is a highly useful branch of magic. > * It can seal the mind against magical intrusion and influence. > oop/ch 24/pg 519/us > > Harry knows there is a connection with Voldemort and if someone is > trying to teach him how to break that connection then he should pay > close attention. Harry made the choice to ignore what people were > telling him. Snape, IMO did not tell Harry ANYTHING new. Harry knows since GoF that his scar is the connection to Voldemort. Basically what he was told is that the connection strengthened. That's it. Nothing to indicate how dangerous situation became, nothing about the Prophecy, etc.... Harry was looking for information all book. The reason why he went to Snape's Pensieve was not to look for humiliating memories, but to find out what exactly was in MoM. Harry made quite a few mistakes in this book, but I hold Dumbledore and Co responsible for what occurred first and foremost. > > "K": > > Isn't this one of the reasons Sirius died? Harry was determined to > see what was going on. He didn't want to learn Occlumency. Did Harry > try as hard as he should have? > Snips quotes about how Harry did not practice Occlumency. Alla: Harry may not have practiced enough, but he certainly tried. I again want to make a reference to Annemehr's wonmderful post about how Harry did practice Occlumency. I again don't have post number, but I have it at home and if you want, I'll find it later. > "K": > > That's not really true, as I've pointed out before. Harry was told > by Snape what Voldemort might try to do from the very first lesson. Alla: No, he did not tell him ANYTHING about Voldemort trying to lure Harry to MoM. Absolutely nothing. > Sherry previously: > > >Dumbledore should have told Harry everything. Once Voldemort had > >returned to his body, it wasn't time to protect Harry > > from the truth anymore. > > "K": > > I don't think we even know all the truth right now. I still trust > Dumbledore and I'm sure there's a reason Harry isn't being told > everything. > > Also, who says Harry didn't learn Occlumency to some extent? > Alla: That very well can be. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 19:01:09 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:01:09 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > It's equal between the two of them, then. Harry will barely practice; > Snape will barely teach. Sure, Snape fires "Legilimens" at Harry, and > Harry has some success at repelling it. But all along in Potions > class, Snape is very effectively sabotaging Occlumency lessons with a > major increase in Potter-baiting ("Empty your mind, Potter! Oh, and > another zero, then). The least he could have done would have been to > keep the Harry-goading down to normal levels. > > Not to mention that blame for Snape goes back to their very first > class. Snape can't stand rule-breaking upstarts? In general? If Snape > hadn't shown a very *personal* dislike right out on his sleeve, he > would have acted very differently -- and Harry would have seen him as > stern and formidable, but would probably have been able to respect > him. Kind of like the way he respects McGonagall, who also takes a dim > view of rule-breaking and took 50 points from him in his first year > for doing something Harry thought necessary. > > From the very beginning, Snape deliberately antagonised the boy when > he knew perfectly well how important he would be in the fight against > Voldemort. Even if Snape had a good reason for that, such as > protecting his cover, that's hardly Harry's fault. Alla: Anne, word of agreement from me.:o) True, we don't know how Occlumency was supposed to be taught , but it surely did not look like Snape tried hard. Why, why, why Snape could not show Harry some kind of fair treatment from the beginning? Why? I don't think that he would have blown his cover, if he was fair to the boy, NOT playing favourites, or anything. > > Kneasy previously : > > Harry really isn't a very nice person in this book, but so far as he's > > concerned he's being perfectly reasonable and it's all somebody else's > > fault. I can't agree. Harry is directly culpable for the death of > Sirius. > > Because he wouldn't listen to those in a position to know better. > > > > Kneasy > > Annemehr: > > > Just to mention in passing that Harry wasn't the only one whose > personality took a turn for the worse in OoP, though he had the best > reasons. And, okay, I'd give Harry a *share* in guilt for Sirius' > death, but not the largest one, mind. Exactly, thanks. I hope I am not getting in trouble for this post. Too much of " Me, too" :o) Everybody screwed up in this book, absolutely everybody, but something tells me that adults did it much more than any of the kids. Alla From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 19:13:59 2004 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <1086794026.20972.23086.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040609191359.8305.qmail@web52407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100577 I suppose everything in life can be somehow linked to everything else if the connection is stretched enough, but I don't accept the argument that discontinuation of the lessons was responsible in any way for Sirius' death. It was Harry's inability or unwillingness to cooperate and his hostility toward Snape that held him back. Harry had been told of the importance of the lessons; he knew it was in his own interest to master the art and that this was not being done for amusement and yet... Sure Snape ended the lessons - but even if he hadn't, there's no indication that Harry would have cooperated any more than he already had. Without practice, his progress would have stalled, leaving him with that dangerous "little bit of knowledge" we all know about. Innate ability may have been there, but mastery required effort on Harry's part, and effort was something he just couldn't put forth.. Snape couldn't make Harry learn, he could only teach - the rest was up to Harry, who couldn't or wouldn't accept what was offered. -AF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 19:16:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:16:35 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Granted that Dumbledore was wrong, and Harry should have > been told more, but that would have entailed recognizing Harry > as an adult, wouldn't it? > > Pippin Actually, Pipin, I agree. That would have been proof that Harry is treated like an adult. Unfortunately, we saw proof to the opposite throughout the book. Alla From marcuscason at charter.net Wed Jun 9 19:18:01 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:18:01 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100579 rowena states: "And I'm afraid I sympathize with Snape's reasons for ending the lessons. Harry knowingly invades SS's privacy in a hugely offensive way. I'd have gone ballistic too. Frankly I think poor Snape deserves some credit for not turning the kid into a spider and stepping on him. ;D" Kyntor replies: It is real hard for me to sympathize with Snape for this. Snape did the same exact thing when he was practicing legilimency against Harry. Snape was burrowing down into Harry's mind for his most painful, most private memories. Snape might feel he is justified in doing this since he is trying to teach Harry occlumency, but what he is not justified in doing is making fun of Harry when these memories affect Harry. Since Harry was just starting to learn occlumency, Snape probably should have went after less controversal memories (like what Harry ate for breakfast) until Harry got a good idea of what he was doing. Once Harry had a base of knowledge built up, then Snape could go after the more personal memories. Throwing someone in the deep end of the pool to try to teach them to swim is one thing, trying to deliberately drown them is something else. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 9 19:25:07 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:25:07 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100580 Annemehr: > Honestly, what good is comparing the mere actions of people, when the circumstances and motivations are all important? You can't say Wormtail and Snape are equivalent because they both switched sides,and we only approve one because we *like* him better! One turned to the good side, and that *is* good (unless we later hear of some evil motivation for Snape), and the other turned to evil and that is evil. > Any way, *can* you "betray" evil? In the purest sense, betrayal seems to me to be turning against someone who has a claim on your loyalty, and I don't think evil has a true claim on *anyone's* loyalty. Therefore, say, Bellatrix turning against LV will never carry the same weight as Ron turning against Harry would.< Pippin: Hmmm. Fighting for the good? Good and evil are muddy even from our perspective, let alone the characters'. I think few of them would be so arrogant as to claim so much on their own behalf. And some that would, Fudge and Umbridge, for example, would be wrong. From their own perspective, the characters can only know whether they are fighting for the right as they see it. Some, such as Regulus, the giants, and possibly the goblins, if what Lupin predicts comes true, have seen right on Voldemort's side. Leaving Voldemort, then, entails not only turning against Voldemort's evil, but betraying those of your friends who still believe in him. And let's not forget how convincing he can be. He's got the Malfoys and their sort believing he'll put purebloods on top while at the same time he's convincing the goblins and giants that he's fighting to secure their freedoms. Our Voldy's a talented bloke, and none, so far, have been wise enough to see through all his deceptions. Was Mrs. Black evil? It seems to be totally missed that she was not a Voldemort supporter to the end. "They got cold feet when they saw what [Voldemort] was prepared to do to get power. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up *at first.* " --OOP ch 6. (emphasis mine) Voldemort murdered Regulus, Mrs. Black's much better son, and everybody treats it like it couldn't have possibly mattered to her. Sheesh! Then Sirius goes to Azkaban as a Death Eater--no wonder she was heart-broken! Does everyone think having the wrong idea about Muggles and House Elves exiles you from humanity? To me, I'm afraid that it's not that simple. We teach our children in school that racism is bad. In our culture it's a given. But no one has ever been taught at Hogwarts that Muggles are the equals of wizards, or that House Elves should not be slaves. Consider the real world of the eighteenth century. A good many people whose ringing words about human freedom are enshrined in the founding documents of my society and fondly quoted to this day, held slaves and would not have considered me, a woman and a Jew, their social equal. Yet I have rights today because they were willing to risk their lives for their imperfectly imagined concept of human dignity. Pippin From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 19:25:55 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:25:55 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: It is just to me any of Harry's wrongdoings pales > significantly in comparison to Snape's. > > So, I can be Snape's apologist too, but not when it comes to > verlooking his wrong deeds. How about that? :o) "K": I don't overlook Snape's wrong deeds either but I think we will disagree on what is a wrong deed or not where it concerns Snape and Harry. Alla: > Honestly, I can be Snape apologist, if I try.....really hard. :o) "K": Ah, but you shouldn't have to try hard. ;-) Alla: > In the beginninhg of OoP Harry knows that Voldie tried to kill him >a few times, he has no idea why. "K": Does he need to know why? His parents are dead and it's no secret Voldemort is after him. That in itself should be enough. Then you have the graveyard scene where Cedric is killed. Nope. No excuse for Harry on this. Alla: > Let's see. Dumbledore tries to keep a distance from Harry all year > for reason Harry desperately tries to find out. He is NOT given >such information and now his most hated teacher tells >him "Headmaster thinks it is a good idea" > I don't know if I will be very receptive in such situation, to >tell you the truth. "K": Guess I'll have to agree with a portrait: ~~Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the headmaster of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to you? Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm?~~ oop/ch 23/pg 496/us Alla: > Snape, IMO did not tell Harry ANYTHING new. Harry knows since GoF > that his scar is the connection to Voldemort. Basically what he >was told is that the connection strengthened. That's it. "K" Hmmm.... so Harry knew: * The Dark Lord is highly skilled in Legilimency. * Harry he is sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. * Occlumency is a highly useful branch of magic. * It can seal the mind against magical intrusion and influence. Harry learned nothing new? Are you seriously telling me that Harry couldn't figure out how important Occlumency was even after being told so by Snape, Lupin, Sirius, and Hermione? The boy isn't that dense. He just didn't want to learn. He wanted to see what was behind that door. Alla: > Nothing to indicate how dangerous situation became, nothing about >the Prophecy, etc.... "K": Now I must defend Harry. He is smarter than that. Of course he knew how dangerous the situation was. He didn't need to be told about the Prophecy at this point in order to do what he was told. But then that is a problem Harry has. He doesn't listen very well. Alla: > Harry was looking for information all book. The reason why he went >to Snape's Pensieve was not to look for humiliating memories, but >to find out what exactly was in MoM. "K": What would make Harry think Snape had put information about the MoM in the Pensieve? Nah. Harry is just plain nosey. Of course thanks to Harry we now know more about Snape. ^-^ No excuses for Harry here either. Never, ever should he have pried into Snape's private business. BTW, I believe Snape didn't want Harry to worry about the MoM. Again, Harry just didn't care or listen. It's what Harry wanted and that's all that mattered. Alla: > Harry made quite a few mistakes in this book, but I hold >Dumbledore and Co responsible for what occurred first and foremost. > "K": Seriously, this is a big problem many of us have. We have characters we love and we are at times unable to look at the negative sides of our favorites. That is one reason I usually have to ignore Harry apologists threads because I do love the kid but Harry is hardly ever held accountable. I find myself ending up disliking Harry because of the constant excuses being made for him. That's why I stay away from those threads. I love Harry but I don't think everyone is wrong and he is right. Dumbledore is in a terrible position and I don't think many people stop to think about what he has gone through and what he is going through now. Perfect? No. Responsible for all the wrong that happens in OoP? No way. Alla: >Harry may not have practiced enough, but he certainly tried. > I again want to make a reference to Annemehr's wonmderful post >about how Harry did practice Occlumency. I again don't have post >number, but I have it at home and if you want, I'll find it later. "K": He didn't try hard enough and if you go back to my previous post you will see that Harry admits that more than once. As others have said, it was Bella who killed Sirius, or Lupin ;-0 Do I blame Sirius for going to the MoM? Yes and no but that's a whole other thread I don't have time for. But to blame Snape is rather far-fetched. Somehow his attempt to keep Sirius at Grimmauld place doesn't seem to account for anything. Plus the fact it was Harry and gang who never thought to go to Snape in the first place. But then that is Snape's fault, isn't it. ;-) "K" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 9 19:30:28 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:30:28 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > How do you see Harry *knowing* just how important Occlumency was? I see the lack > of providing sufficient explanation and motive to learn as one of Snape's major > failings. > Knowing how important it was? Sufficient explanation? Tut, tut! Who else knows what DD's plan is except DD? Do you really think that he is going to reveal all to a 15 y.o. boy who is rash, argumentative and can't keep his mind closed? He already knows that Voldy is in there and you think it's a good idea to let Harry in on what's afoot? A bit naive, don't you think? For any reasonable person it would be enough that the one wizard capable of opposing Voldy has deemed it necessary would be reason enough. It certainly is for the other members of the Order - do you consider Harry to be a special case? - he that doesn't have a clue, thinks he has all the answers when he's not even sure of the questions and lets his emotions over-rule common sense? Disaster looms. I wouldn't trust him to find his way to the bathroom without the Marauders Map. Just 'cos he's going to get killed in book 7 doesn't mean that he should be accorded special priviledges, you know. *He* doesn't need to know what's going on, *we* do. In fact, it's probably better that he doesn't know what's going on; it'll save him from all kinds of pointless angst before he follows Sirius into the next great adventure - probably involving a snitch, a rubber duck and a rather large dog that isn't housetrained. Serve him right IMO. Kneasy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 19:35:11 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:35:11 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Snape, IMO did not tell Harry ANYTHING new. Harry knows since GoF > that his scar is the connection to Voldemort. Basically what he was > told is that the connection strengthened. That's it. > > > Nothing to indicate how dangerous situation became, nothing about the > Prophecy, etc.... "K": I just remembered something. ~~ "It is enough that we know," said Snape repressively. "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return---" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added hurriedly. oop/ch 24/pg 533/us I don't know about you, but if someone just told me one of the most powerful dark wizards might try and make me do things I'd really practice hard. "K" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 19:42:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:42:33 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > It is just to me any of Harry's wrongdoings pales > > significantly in comparison to Snape's. > > > > So, I can be Snape's apologist too, but not when it comes to > > verlooking his wrong deeds. How about that? :o) > > "K": > > I don't overlook Snape's wrong deeds either but I think we will > disagree on what is a wrong deed or not where it concerns Snape and > Harry. > Oh, yes. We most certainly do. "K": > > Now I must defend Harry. He is smarter than that. Of course he knew > how dangerous the situation was. He didn't need to be told about the > Prophecy at this point in order to do what he was told. But then > that is a problem Harry has. He doesn't listen very well. He did not know what the situation was. I don't have a book with me, but I will rpovide quote when I come home. > Alla: > > > Harry was looking for information all book. The reason why he went > >to Snape's Pensieve was not to look for humiliating memories, but > >to find out what exactly was in MoM. > > "K": > > What would make Harry think Snape had put information about the MoM > in the Pensieve? Nah. Harry is just plain nosey. Of course thanks to > Harry we now know more about Snape. ^-^ No excuses for Harry here > either. Never, ever should he have pried into Snape's private > business. BTW, I believe Snape didn't want Harry to worry about the > MoM. Again, Harry just didn't care or listen. It's what Harry wanted > and that's all that mattered. Again, await for the quote from me - the only reason Harry went to Pensieve is to look for information about MoM. I am 99% sure about that. I am not saying that he should have gone into in the first place , mind you. But he was did not want to look for Snape's most humiliating moments. > "K": > > Seriously, this is a big problem many of us have. We have characters > we love and we are at times unable to look at the negative sides of > our favorites. That is one reason I usually have to ignore Harry > apologists threads because I do love the kid but Harry is hardly > ever held accountable. I find myself ending up disliking Harry > because of the constant excuses being made for him. That's why I > stay away from those threads. I love Harry but I don't think > everyone is wrong and he is right. Alla: It is your right to read any threads you want and avoid any threads you want. I for once LOVE reading how we are trying to defend our favourites. I also can say that Snape gets excused from almost everything by Snape apologists. So what? It is the fun of the discussion. As I said I have no trouble admitting Harry's flaws, but of course, I will try to find justifications for them. That's one of the reasons why I am here - to defend my favourites in the heated discussion. > "K": Plus the fact it was > Harry and gang who never thought to go to Snape in the first place. > But then that is Snape's fault, isn't it. ;-) > Actually, they forgot. Quote to follow in the evening. Harry simply forgot that Snape is the member of the order, that Snape one of the good guys. I cannot blame hi, for that. Alla From LadySawall at aol.com Wed Jun 9 20:02:49 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:02:49 EDT Subject: Harry's Justified Not to Trust (was Harry as Kreacher) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100585 In a message dated 06/09/2004 2:56:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Arya writes: No way. Harry is justified, IMO. In fact, since everyone and anyone knows Harry's life story (especially the teachers) they are guilty of even more for not trying to understand how Harry is a bit different than a normal, more trusting teen. --- Jo Ann: Here, JKR is using an old game master's trick known in the roleplaying circles I frequent as "Lie, lie, tell the truth." Create a pattern of deceptive situations, condition the character to no longer accept anything at face value, and then break that pattern when they least expect it. In this case, the pattern JKR created for Harry was "Following the rules may result in horrible things happening." Just as he was firmly convinced that this was always going to be the case, and that he could therefore safely ignore the rules--perhaps was even obligated to do so--she (or life, or Voldemort, from his POV) pulled the rug out from under him by presenting a situation where it was absolutely vital that he do as he was told. I wonder if JKR has ever played tabletop RPG's... Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 20:05:57 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:05:57 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100586 Wow, seriously great post! I'm not for excusing Harry for the times he has no excuse, either, but I do think a lot of people blame Harry too much for how the Occlumency lessons went (and didn't go). This is a really thorough summary, but, besides agreeing with points Alla made in reply, I want to add a couple of things. K: > Harry knows there is a connection with Voldemort and if someone is > trying to teach him how to break that connection then he should pay > close attention. Harry made the choice to ignore what people were > telling him. Annemehr: Yes. Personally, I don't think Harry outright ignored this, though I do concede that he didn't give it as much weight as I think he ought to have, *especially* the appeal Dumbledore made to him to practice, just before disappearing from Hogwarts on Fawkes' tailfeathers. Dumbledore looked Harry in the eye to do it, for starters (though that may have backfired since Harry was distracted somewhat by snaky feelings). > "K": > As Harry says: > > ~~The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was > hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for > the dreams to continue. > oop/ch 30/pg 682/us Annemehr: This was an obstacle for Harry, not a decision, IMO. It parallels PoA, where his desire to hear his parents' voices, even in their last moments, was interfering with his desire to learn to produce a Patronus. In both PoA and OoP, Harry was dealing with mixed feelings and emotions. But in PoA the emotions were his alone; in OoP he'd been having Voldemort's dreams of the door since the summer and been infected with Voldemort's intense curiousity. I think that's an important point. Despite this, he *did* put some effort into practising; the book isn't really clear on exactly how much. > "K": > Also, who says Harry didn't learn Occlumency to some extent? > There is one more scene where it's possible Harry uses > Occlumency. It's the scene where Bella, Harry, Voldemort, and > Dumbledore are at the ministry. Sirius has just died. > > Voldemort paid no attention. > "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter," he said > quietly. "You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" > Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist. His mind was > blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor.~~ > oop/ch 36/pgs 811-813 > > After all Harry has just gone through with the Death Eaters, with > Voldemort causing Harry physical pain and Harry being in a rage, > Harry comes to a point where his mind is BLANK. Annemehr: But Voldemort has just seen in Harry's mind that the prophecy orb had indeed broken. For this scene, I interpret Harry's blankness to being completely numb and empty. He would have just stood there and died if Dumbledore hadn't blocked the AK. K: > > I believe there is a lot more to Occlumency than we have been told. > I think it's only the beginning. There is now a connection between > Snape and Harry. How this will be used I don't know but I feel it > will be important. > > ~~... Harry felt he was getting worse with every lesson. > ~~ "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons > with him ---" Harry remembered Ron's thoughts on the subject and > plunged on. "How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for > Voldemort, make it easier for him to get inside my ---" > "I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply.~~ > oop/ch 37/pg 833/us Annemehr: There's one more very important statement from Dumbledore in that chapter: Dumbledore: "I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to **open your mind even further to Voldemort** while in my presence --" [emphasis mine] Which tells us: 1) Harry was *not* mistaken in thinking that lessons with Snape were making him worse (though he had no way of knowing that the problem was an effect of Occlumency lessons in general and not with Snape himself, because *nobody told him about that effect*). 2) If lessons were opening Harry's mind even further to Voldemort, then they were opening his mind even further to Voldemort's curiousity about the prophecy. 3) Not knowing about this effect of Occlumency lessons left Harry to think that, if he was getting worse during lessons, the lessons must not be working. This is one crucial piece of information Harry was not given until it was too late, and may well have made a difference. K: > Notice Dumbledore does not tell Harry that Ron was wrong. He just > says he trusts Snape. As I've said, I think the connection between > Snape and Harry will come into play later on but that doesn't mean > it will be in a negative way. > > Yes, Snape ended the lesson but maybe, just maybe, Snape had > finished what needed to be done. > > "K" Annemehr: As for a connection between Harry and Snape, my mind is open, but so far I don't think so, if you mean something akin to the scar connection between Harry and LV. If you mean that their relationship will be important, then I agree. There's also the fact that Harry knows Snape knows Occlumency and Legilimency, which may be put to better use someday. And yes, I agree Harry may have learned more Occlumency than anyone realises. Annemehr From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 20:11:14 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:11:14 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > He did not know what the situation was. I don't have a book with >me, but I will rpovide quote when I come home. "K": Let me help you. ~~ Harry gazed at the Pensieve, curiosity welling inside him...What was it that Snape was so keen to hide from Harry? The silvery lights shivered on the wall...Harry took two steps toward the desk, thinking hard. Could it possibly be information about the Department of Mysteries that Snape was determined to keep from him? oop/ch 28/pg 639/us Oops! I was wrong but it still doesn't change the fact that Snape told him to forget about the MoM and again Harry doesn't listen. Little snoop! Alla: > I am not saying that he should have gone into in the first place , > mind you. But he was did not want to look for Snape's most > humiliating moments. "K": lol - Yeah, he would have gone in there regardless. Alla: > I for once LOVE reading how we are trying to defend our >favourites. I also can say that Snape gets excused from almost >everything by Snape apologists. So what? It is the fun of the >discussion. "K": Actually, most Snape apologists don't excuse Snape for almost everything. I personally believe that Snape is blamed from many things that he isn't guilty of. That's what I'm defending. But my main point is to try and figure out these books and I can only do so by looking at the characters in an honest way. Harry is excused for his actions far too often. Snape isn't given a second chance. Alla: > Actually, they forgot. Quote to follow in the evening. Harry >simply forgot that Snape is the member of the order, that Snape one >of the good guys. I cannot blame hi, for that. "K": ~~"Very well, Mr. Potter...I offered you the chance to tell me freely. You refused. I have no alternative but to force you. Draco -- - fetch Professor Snape." Malfoy stowed Harry's wand inside his robes and left the room smirking, but Harry hardly noticed. He had just realized something; he could not believe he had been so stupid as to forget it. He had thought that all the members of the Order, all those who could help him save Sirius, were gone --- but he had been wrong. There was still a member of the Order of the Phoenix at Hogwarts ---Snape. oop/ch 32/pg 743/us He forgot. Shame on him. Harry really needs to wake up, poor guy. He's surrounded by people, with the exception of Hermione, who tell him how horrible Snape is. Sirius, Ron, Alla, and now Bill Weasley. Maybe we should start blaming some of them. They aren't helping matters out. I think I'm out of time for today and what do you mean you don't have your books with you? ^-^ "K" From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 21:09:28 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:09:28 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100589 > Pippin: > Hmmm. Fighting for the good? Good and evil are muddy even > from our perspective, let alone the characters'. I think few of > them would be so arrogant as to claim so much on their own > behalf. And some that would, Fudge and Umbridge, for example, > would be wrong. From their own perspective, the characters > can only know whether they are fighting for the right as they see > it. Annemehr: Well, yes, that's pretty much all anyone can do. I'm not forgetting that Molly and Sirius argued furiously about how much to tell Harry, and they both believed they knew what was best for him. And Fighting For Good doesn't have to mean anything grand and great; just trying to live a decent life and fulfill your obligations responsibly will do. It has nothing to do with arrogance. Pippin: > Some, such as Regulus, the giants, and possibly the > goblins, if what Lupin predicts comes true, have seen right on > Voldemort's side. Leaving Voldemort, then, entails not only > turning against Voldemort's evil, but betraying those of your > friends who still believe in him. And let's not forget how > convincing he can be. He's got the Malfoys and their sort > believing he'll put purebloods on top while at the same time he's > convincing the goblins and giants that he's fighting to secure > their freedoms. Our Voldy's a talented bloke, and none, so far, > have been wise enough to see through all his deceptions. Annemehr: Are you saying the Malfoys sat down and considered which was the right way to go, and acted according to their best idea of "good?" Because I was always sure their pureblood ideology was simply a reactionary one, which they rationalise after the fact. I don't equate oppressed giants with the Malfoys any more than I equate Harry with Kreacher. Still, I have no idea what the giants know about Voldemort, but apparently (according to "Hagrid's Tale") they do have knowledge of Dumbledore and his ways. We did see a difference among the giants -- the first gurg was willing to listen to Dumbledore's envoys until killed by his successor who chose the side of Voldemort. I think there's enough to the story to at least suggest that the giants might be able to make a moral choice between the two sides. If anyone leaves Voldemort because they come to realise he is evil, I don't see that as a betrayal of their friends who still believe in him. If they are truly friends, though, then perhaps the defector would try to persuade them, too. Pippin: > Was Mrs. Black evil? It seems to be totally missed that she was > not a Voldemort supporter to the end. "They got cold feet when > they saw what [Voldemort] was prepared to do to get power. But I > bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining > up *at first.* " --OOP ch 6. (emphasis mine) > > Voldemort murdered Regulus, Mrs. Black's much better son, and > everybody treats it like it couldn't have possibly mattered to her. > Sheesh! Then Sirius goes to Azkaban as a Death Eater--no > wonder she was heart-broken! Does everyone think having the > wrong idea about Muggles and House Elves exiles you from > humanity? Annemehr: Partly, it depends on what "got cold feet" meant. Did it only mean that they perceived that LV was going to lead them into chaos, and threaten *their own* way of life? Or did it mean that LV was prepared to do things to *others* that even they recognised as evil? Pippin: > To me, I'm afraid that it's not that simple. We teach our children > in school that racism is bad. In our culture it's a given. But no > one has ever been taught at Hogwarts that Muggles are the > equals of wizards, or that House Elves should not be slaves. > > Consider the real world of the eighteenth century. A > good many people whose ringing words about human freedom > are enshrined in the founding documents of my society and > fondly quoted to this day, held slaves and would not have > considered me, a woman and a Jew, their social equal. Yet I > have rights today because they were willing to risk their lives for > their imperfectly imagined concept of human dignity. > > Pippin Annemehr: I think that I don't see conscience as quite so relative as I'm getting from your words (I put that awkwardly, but I don't want to put words in your mouth in case I misunderstood). I think that those who seriously think about it can indeed come to understand the difference between good and evil, though not in a perfect way. Take your real life example: the founders did indeed make the effort to advance human dignity. Even though the effort was very incomplete, it laid the foundation that we are building on. But they accomplished what they did precisely because they made the effort to advance the good, not to acquire power for themselves. A person who accepts slavery in a society that has always accepted slavery is one thing. Once people arise who speak up against slavery, who begin to point out the injustices, it becomes a new situation. Though old mental habits die hard, an honest person will have to begin to consider the other side. In VWI, the two sides were very clear and apparent to anyone who wanted to consider their merits. VWII is now going the same way: Fudge has seen that he was mistaken. It's what Fudge decides to do *now* that will really show us his true colors. Perhaps the main difference between Harry and Kreacher is that Harry appears to have a much greater capacity to consider and decide between right and wrong than Kreacher, who may be both insane and magically bound (and to what extent we have no way of knowing). I just didn't like what appeared to me to be a superficial comparison between the two. And finally, I don't fault Kreacher for his loyalty to Mrs. Black, or to Narcissa either. Annemehr From antonia at timself.net Wed Jun 9 16:18:43 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:18:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possibly OT but (Lightning Bolt) In-Reply-To: <40C5D042.7090004@tds.net> References: <40C5D042.7090004@tds.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040609121544.020fb2e8@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100590 > >>Littlekat wrote: > >>What does a lightning bolt look like? I am absolutely clueless! > > > > Total blindness doth have its price. Jem >Angles like a dog leg. Think of one leg on top of the 2nd, the 2nd >being reversed or going in the opposite direction. I don't think the Z analogy is so bad but its MORE like a stretched out capital N. lengthen the sides and shorten the crosspiece. And blind or not I'm sure she's familiar with letter shapes if only in the put your finger in the groove kind of letters they teach blind children in elementary school so they can later write cheques and all with a cheque guard. tana From pucklady at dslextreme.com Wed Jun 9 21:42:59 2004 From: pucklady at dslextreme.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:42:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: 50 Ways to Wait for Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100592 (Reposted because I forgot the subject header the first time) Potterheads, we know from experience that it will be a Long Wait until the next book. We have a few new toys (Movie. JKR Website.) to play with, but it's still going to be a long time. But take heart. There's gotta be: 50 Ways to Wait for Book 6 As for midis, we have a choice: 1: http://www.hamienet.com/5078.mid (this is really a karaoke background without the tune) 2: http://www.handsonus.com/hdemo/demo1000/1037dem0.mid (this one has the tune, but it fades out right away - they want you to buy the rest) "The writing for Book Six is going well", so says her site. She's writing every day and sometimes well into the night. JKR suggests that there are ways to ease our plight There must be fifty ways to wait for Book Six. She said it's really not my habit to intrude Furthermore, I hope this won't be cause for being sued But until the Harry Potter reading frenzy is renewed There must be fifty ways to wait for Book Six. Fifty ways to wait for Book Six Take off some weight, Kate Read a fan-fic, Dick Go back to school, Jewel Just get a real life Learn how to knit, Kit You don't need to admit it Just start something new, Doo And please get a life. Ooo, take off some weight, Kate Read a fan-fic, Dick Go back to school, Jewel Just get a real life Learn how to knit, Kit You don't need to admit it Just start something new, Doo And please get a life. She peppered up her website just to drive us all insane We caught the fly, unlocked the box, and clicked the door in vain We posted to our scrapbooks everything they can contain But those fifty ways She said if you need more, there's a new movie out tonight And this guy Miguel Cauron has finally got the details right But I can say to you and I don't try to be contrite There must be fifty ways to wait for Book 6 Fifty ways to wait for Book 6 Take off some weight, Kate Read a fan-fic, Dick Go back to school, Jewel Just get a real life Learn how to knit, Kit You don't need to admit it Just start something new, Doo And please get a life. Ooo, take off some weight, Kate Read a fan-fic, Dick Go back to school, Jewel Just get a real life Learn how to knit, Kit You don't need to admit it Just start something new, Doo And please get a life. ~ CV, getting a life someday From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 21:45:53 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:45:53 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100593 Robert wrote: Depending on how you define the rules of time travel in the Porterverse, it might now be so much a choice but a necessity for him to go back. The "rules" as shown in the movie and the book are of a world where events are fixed and must occur. Harry saving himself at the lake is a good example. Since he was saved by a later himself, he had to perform the saving from the other side or he would cease to exist. The same applies to GH. If his intervention from the future set in motion the events at GH, he MUST go back to intervene again. Failure to do so would mean his death as a baby at GH and the success of LV at that time. I can see a scenario where he has defeated LV in the present (as of book 7) and then DD tells him that he must go back in time to let LV kill him at GH so everything occurs as it did. vmonte responds: Robert, I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I wonder if the prophecy is being misread (that is if it's not a hoax altogether, but I digress). What if the prophecy is about Voldemort and both versions of Harry. "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" Maybe this section is about baby Harry and 18 year old Harry. Just a thought, vivian "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." From nmjenson at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 17:16:55 2004 From: nmjenson at yahoo.com (nmjenson) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:16:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius -- Romantic Interests? (Re: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100594 Sylvia wrote: > > I have not so far heard it suggested that Sirius was another > > undeclared lover and am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how > > he felt about Lily. I would think he might have been a bit jealous > > of her, considering how strong his friendship is with James (I'm NOT > > suggesting a homosexual attraction, to bring up that tired old theme) > > but he must have been won over in order to accept the posts of best > > man and godfather. Brenda: > I was wondering, why isn't there a mention of Sirius' girlfriends in > highschool? For someone that clever, tall and great-looking, surely > there was a long line-up of girls trying to put their claws on him? > > And also in Snape's Worst Memory, Harry sees Sirius leaning back on > his chair in DADA OWL exam, and a girl behind him was eyeing him > hopefully, but he didn't notice her.. Was he that uninterested in > girls? And no he doesn't emit the "gay" vibe to me but some guys are > just not interested in girls till very late, or they don't care unless > the girl is super uber gorgeous (to their standard, of course). Sirius is not gay! Come on guys .... he had a lot on his mind after graduation besides dating ... Lord Voldemort. In some cases, like the examination room, perhaps Sirius is oblivious to his admirers ... which is completely possible. Remember they were only 15. Most 15 year old boys are still boys ... not quite used to the concept of dating yet. "nmjenson" From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jun 9 19:10:51 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:10:51 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100595 I'm not new to the group, but haven't posted a whole lot. I'm going to try to reply to a few posts here - hope I don't screw it up. Arya wrote: Those who know better? Like who?! Please, Harry has every reason to believe in OotP that he's got he, himself and and his wand to help him out. (And ron and Hermione.) [snip] I think you see where I am going--can you honestly say Harry has any real basis for trusting that those around him are doing everything they need to and that he can just sit back and follow along like an obedient little boy? [snip] Harry has every right to believe *he* has to make his own decisions. He has every right to feel he should not take anyone's advice or instruction as gospel or truth. [snip] No way. Harry is justified, IMO. [snip] Demetra: I think I understand where you're coming from, but you can't have it both ways. If Harry is justified in not trusting what he is told and he is justified in making his own decisions despite what he is told, then he has to take the responsibility for making his decisions, right or wrong. In this case, despite being told to learn Occlumency, despite Hermione's many warnings that this was a trap, Harry made a choice to go to the DOM. It turned out to be the wrong choice. Yes, his reasons may have been pure, but it was the wrong decision. And the responsibility for making that wrong decision lies with Harry. Sherry G wrote: I think everyone involved has a little bit of blame in the death of Sirius, including Sirius, but I can't see how he would have acted any other way, having his type of personality, knowing that Harry was in danger. Demetra: I also can't see Sirius not going to the DOM, especially when he learned Harry was there. However, he continued to act like a rash fool while he was there. What possible reason did he have to goad Bellatrix? ? "Come on, you can do better than that." Yep, she sure could, as he learned well enough. Think about what was going on then. Dumbledore had arrived, all the others had stopped fighting. Harry was in no immediate danger. Sirius was so intensely involved in his duel with Bella that he was apparently oblivious to all of this. She must be a good duelist. She certainly seemed to be holding her own against Sirius, but he still felt he had to goad her. It's a stupid move to make in a playground fight when you're a child, it's even stupider when you're supposedly an adult and the risk is death, not a bloody nose. "K" wrote: [snip of K's excellent post] Yes, Snape ended the lesson but maybe, just maybe, Snape had finished what needed to be done. Demetra: I think you're on to something here. I think that Dumbledore didn't insist that Snape restart the Occlumency lessons because that particular mission was accomplished. I think it was Kneasy who said that Dumbledore and Snape are analogous to the good cop/bad cop. I think that's true. In this case, Snape keeps his cover as the bad guy who ended the Occlumency lessons (and don't get me wrong, I think Sevvie gets perverse enjoyment out of playing that part) and no one is on to the fact that Dumbledore's goal with the Occlumency lessons was met. Demetra (who apologizes if she's all over the map, but trying to follow the time turner thread is making my brain ache) From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jun 9 19:46:16 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:46:16 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" > > Since Harry was just starting to learn occlumency, Snape probably > should have went after less controversal memories (like what Harry > ate for breakfast) until Harry got a good idea of what he was doing. > Once Harry had a base of knowledge built up, then Snape could go > after the more personal memories. > > Throwing someone in the deep end of the pool to try to teach them to swim is one thing, trying to deliberately drown them is something > else. Demetra: Well, neither of us really knows the best way to teach Occlumency ;) Someone earlier compared Occlumency lessons to Harry learning to repel the Imperius Curse in GoF. FakeMoody didn't try to teach Harry et al. to resist the Imperius by doing the Jelly Legs curse, did he? My guess is that to learn to repel it, you have to experience it. Why would Harry want to close off his mind if Snape was only seeing what he had for breakfast? Maybe the viewing of intensely personal memories is what results in the mind's ability to respond. Note that when Harry was able to repel the Legilimens and break into Snape's mind, he didn't see memories of Snape teaching, prowling the corridors, drinking blood (just kidding) He also saw intensely personal memories, without even trying. Demetra (who is still on moderated status and apologises if this post shows up 2 hours after someone else says the same thing) From beatlemania at aol.com Wed Jun 9 21:05:16 2004 From: beatlemania at aol.com (beingadriana) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:05:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: mentions of Luna? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100597 June wrote: > > My hunch about Luna is this. I think she may date Harry a few > > times, but they both will come to the conclusion that they are > > better off as friends. My other hunch is that Luna will end up > > with Neville, once Neville realizes how cool she is. Bookworm: > There's always the possibility that J.K. Rowling will end the books > with no couples together. The kids will only be 17 or so. If I were > to guess potential pairings, I'd say Luna with Neville is a good > bet. > > I think it'll be Hermione with Ron and Ginny with Harry, if all four > of them survive to the end of the books. Luna and Neville are > both supporting characters and good friends, but they're not leads. I think there is a big possibility Harry and Luna will end up together. So many people seem to be horrified by the idea. I don't get why it is so upsetting to them. Sure, she's a little weird, but what is great about her is she doesn't care what other people think about her. She is unique and she is happy in her own skin. She connected with Harry when he lost Sirius. It was such a touching moment. Plus Harry is also kind of an outsider in his own way. I don't think she and Neville would be a good match. Neville still has self-esteem issues. She does not. "beingadriana" From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 9 22:02:15 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:02:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weas... Message-ID: <1f1.22a8e65e.2df8e2e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100598 In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:38:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com writes: > And even if we agree that Harry is King Arthur in this story then > I'd say that Hermione fits the analogue of the LotL and possibly > also that of Guinevere better seeing how she leads to the creation > of the DA much like Arthur's marriage of Guinevere lead to the round > table given to Arthur as a bridal present. "Obvious" to me, mainly, and that's probably a poor choice of words. I guess I see elements of the Camelot legend in all the characters, but not an exact blueprint. Arthur Weasley fits because of his name; Harry because he's the lead of the series who makes the sacrifices, etc. ============ Sherrie here: The first Arthurian parallel that struck me about Harry was the boy of power, raised in an obscurity to which he was taken by a wise wizard, utterly ignorant of his heritage. Sherrie (who apologizes for the Percival misstatement - it's been a while) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 9 22:06:02 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:06:02 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David & Laura" wrote: > David: > > > Geoff, long time lurker here and normally I agree with you, but > > your > > > last comment was out of line. The 'stand and take it' or 'you're > > not > > > going to get to me response' is not British or even male; it's > > > personal. > > > Geoff: > > Don't agree. Other posters have agreed with my interpretation. I > also > > base this on what I've seen with friends and with over 30 years of > > teaching British teenagers..... > David: > When you have significant similar experience with American kids, then > your assertion comparing British and American kids has statistical > merit. Geoff: I'm not comparing them. /You/ made the comment about "not British and not male" and didn't point up any comparison with folk in the US. Have you experience with British young people to make that comment otherwise I could make the same assertion in your direction which you made towards me? From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 22:18:55 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:18:55 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100600 I vmonte wrote: I wonder if the prophecy is being misread (that is if it's not a hoax altogether, but I digress). What if the prophecy is about Voldemort and both versions of Harry. "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" Maybe this section is about baby Harry and 18 year old Harry. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." vmonte adding another comment: Maybe 18 year old Harry gets killed by 23 year old Snape who was at GH, but is then revived by 45 year old Snape when he is transported back to the present. Maybe, Snape's first words to his students (SS/PS) were really about Harry. Maybe, Snape did put a stopper on Harry's death, but Harry has received all the glory he feels he was entitled to. vivian -- again justs thoughts, not cannon. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 22:33:45 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:33:45 -0000 Subject: Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100601 > vmonte adding another comment: > > Maybe, Snape's first words to his students (SS/PS) were really about > Harry. Maybe, Snape did put a stopper on Harry's death, but Harry has > received all the glory he feels he was entitled to. > > > vivian -- again justs thoughts, not cannon. This continues a very interesting thread of speculation.... But I have one thought. When I read SS's claim that he could 'put a stopper on death,' I interpreted it not as a claim that he could stop someone from dying, but that he could put Death itself in a bottle--that is to say, he could brew the potion-making equivalent of the AK curse, the ultimate poison. Did anyone else read it this way? From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 9 22:34:01 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:34:01 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry have told on DJU? (was Re: Harry as last DADA teacher?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C81CF9.14869.3603B1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100602 On 9 Jun 2004 at 14:16, potioncat wrote: > Someone wrote a very good post a while back, I suspect it was Geoff > or Shaun, about the schoolboy code (it wasn't called that, but that > was the idea) and it was about keeping quiet. Whether that's > British or frontier, or warrior...there are cultural groups who > approach life that way. It really explained, I thought, what was > most likely going on in Harry's mind. It must have been in Lee > Jordan's mind too, because he didn't seem to report it either. Yep - it might have been me writing about it, I'm not sure - but it's certainly something I'm very aware of. As I've mentioned numerous times, I attended a school based very on archetypal (almost stereotypical) British school traditions - the same traditions that I think JKR drew on in creating Hogwarts. I know of a lot of other people who went to similar schools in the UK and around the Commonwealth - and there are certain commonalities. They are *not* universal - there are exceptions - but in general you can make statements about the common attitudes in these schools. And one of these things is that you accept what happens to you to a great extent. If an injustice is done, you grin and bear it. You do *not* complain - often not even to your friends, but *especially* not to teachers. It just isn't the done thing. That's not a particularly *good* attitude - but it's a real one. And most people who go to such schools where this happens, do buy into the system. And it's a very hard thing to break - when I was at school, the adults - the teachers - at my school had come to realise that this was a bad system in many ways - and they were *trying* to change it. I have vivid memories of sitting in my Form Masters office in Form III as he tried *desperately* to get me to give the name of the people who were making my life a living hell. This man was virtually in tears from frustration because he knew I was being hurt, and he knew he could so something about it - and I wouldn't give him the names! And it wasn't because I didn't want the problem dealt with - I would have been *delighted* to see these boys caught and punished (and eventually they were, and it was great), but I wasn't going to break 'the code' or whatever you want to call it. Frankly... in many ways, it was a good thing I didn't - because if I had, I'd have become a pariah. Things might have improved for me with regards to the small number of boys who bullied me - but they would have been worse with almost everyone else. As I say, my school tried to fix this - but even today, 15 years after I was sitting in that office, they've had very limited success. The system just doesn't change easily. It does have some good aspects as well, I must say. It helps create a school environment where kids learn to be self sufficient and develop resilience. And you do see that at Hogwarts, I think - these kids are remarkably self sufficient. The problem with it, is that it goes too far. Kids wind up trying to deal with problems which they are *not* able to deal with without adult help. But trying to find a balance where you develop kids who are self sufficient, resilient; but *still* know when it's time to ask for help. That's tricky. Very tricky. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Jun 9 23:02:24 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:02:24 -0500 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... Message-ID: <003c01c44e75$d40bcda0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100603 Here's the breakdown: Harry is very much like his father Harry disobeys rules. Harry Hates Snape Harry acts before he thinks Harry lies when he has done something (or not done something), that someone else has told him not to do (or to do)--and will often continue to do it (or not do it), even when he secretly knows he's wrong. The more Harry hates someone, the less likely he is to do what that person asks. In the book, Harry runs afoul of people who treat him cruelly--those of us with any heart immediately start feeling sorry for him, no matter who it is or why they're acting that way. Fortunately for Harry, since most of these cruel characters match most people's idea of Someone Yu Should Hate, it's easy to sympathize with him. Harry had an abusive childhood. Harry started the book as an 11 year old child. He is now 15 years old and growing up. The excuses that cover some of his mistakes and reckless behavior at 11 no longer wash. If Harry belonged to any of us as a child, and he had done any of the things in Book 5, we would as parents set him straight right quick, by however methods we normally use. To do otherwise would be to encourage lying, disobediance, discourtesy to adults, and so forth. Harry should know better, he really should. He has enough postive role models around him (with only a few negative that stay--the Dursleys and Snape), that he should learn...doesn't mean that he will, but its all a question of inner strength. If Harry applies himself, he will learn, if not--well, he will become yet another self-righteous person who thinks the world owes him because 'he's had it so hard'. Severus is verbally harsh. Severus may or may not hate Harry, but there is not denying that his antipathy for James colors how he treats Harry. Severus has had to deal with Harry-with-an-attitude since the very first year. Severus did strike the first 'blow', as many people would see it, in the altercation between himself and Harry Severus's apparent first responsibility is to Dumbledore's wishes. Severus does seem to hold on to some childhood hurts and hates--as most people do, whether they care to admit it or not. Severus may or may not have been the victim of childhood abuse--he was certainly the victim of in-school bullying. Severus is an adult man in his mid thirties. Certainly, he should know better, but then so should we all. In all my years, I have found that really the only difference between children and adults is a little more self control, if they bother, and the size of their toys, responsibilities, and bank accounts. Adults hurt, can be hurt, and are hurt, just as badly as children. And they act just as stupid, foolish and babyish as children, whether they care to admit to it or not. Like Harry, Snape should know better...like Harry, he should really apply knowing better to what he does. Like Harry, he doesn't. As for what this has to do with Sirius...really nothing. Sirius was his own man in regards to deciding to go to the MoM, made his own choices, and paid for them. Harry cannot control what Sirius decides to do any more than Snape (or Dumbledore, really) can force Harry to do something *he* really does not want to do. It's a loosing battle. So is expecting Snape to change--he's had 30 plus years of people hating him, and has learned to return the favor right back. Asking him to suddenly have an apologetic ephiny is rather...foolish. About as foolish as expecting Harry to suddenly engage his teenage brain and start listening. Unfortunately, if he's true to teenage form, he won't manage that little trick until after the books (if he lives that long)--most people don't get a grip on things until their mid-twenties. And some never get a grip at all. What bothers me about these Harry-Snape-Sirius debates is that everyone is so quick to condemn the character they don't like and defend the one they do...and yeah, we all do that, but some of the sheer *venom* that gets thrown at the other character taht is painted as 'the Bad Guy' bugs me. 'Well, they deserve what's coming to them!' is a common attitiude, and I always think when I read that 'Oh, really...? Have you stopped to consider that that's exactly what people like Voldemort think right before they kill someone for being...'different'. I know, people will argue 'but it's not the same!' No? Tell me then, where the blame stops, and the hate begins....? When does it become a judgement call, instead of an acknowledgement of the character's flaws? Do you honestly know what's going on with these characters, and *WHY* they do certian things? Well, Harry, yes...we see just about everything in his little head. Everyone else though is seen through the 'Harry Filter'--which is by no means omniscent, and is often not impartial. But Snape, Dumbledore, Pettigrew, Sirius--do you *really KNOW what's going on...or just what Rowling chooses to show you? Most everyone thought of Snape as 'just' a bastard...until we saw some of those memories, heard some of his story...now we're not so sure, are we? (Well, some are, but...well...that just means that it wouldn't matter what Snaoe did--he'd still be the 'Bad Guy' to some...). I dunno, probably just talking in circles here, but the final crux of what Im saying is this: Either they are both to blame, or no blame should be assigned, because quite frankly, it was a cluster-fuck all the way around, and everyone made mistakes, and were simply doing what they thought was right, even if they were wrong. And as for "Well, they deserve it for doing *this*...step back and think about it. I know you're only applying it to a book character, but *think* about it....you're applying judgement. You're deciding ultimately who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'...and in some cases on this board that's going as far as meting out imaginary punishment on these characters (and some of those punishments are just as nasty as the crimes they;ve commited--tell me, if you were there in reality, would you *really* want to sink to that level...?). And then think about what it would be like on the other side of that very same judgement given to you by someone who hardly knows you--just your reputation and a few glimpses of your life perhaps--and you knowing that you really don't deserve it...ort there are mitigating circumstances...or...any other number of things as to why it would be just as 'wrong' as the 'wrong' that person percieves in you. Please please please try and consider the 'other side' before you jump on the 'Well this one is right, and that one is just plain wrong', especially since we *don't* know the whole story....and we also all have different views on how things "should" be. In short, repsect all the characters, and not just your favorites, before you start firing off (Try and repsect each otehr as well--we may not agree on a lot of things, but taking chunks out of someone else's hide because their commetns offended you isn't the way to go either). After all, they can't really defend themselves like real people can--Rowling holds their strings, and she is, sadly, feeding us several stereotypes along the way, probably to keep some of her plot secret until the end... And she sure as hell isn't givign out any information...;) Anne/Silverthorne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 23:16:39 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0000 Subject: POA Prongs Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100604 antoshachekhonte at y wrote: Oracle: "Oh, and don't worry the vase" Neo: "What vase?" [and at that instance he breaks it..] Neo: "how'd you know.." Oracle: "the real question is, would you have broken it if I didn't tell you?" vmonte responds: Funny you should mention the above quote, because this is how I basically feel about the prophecy in Harry Potter. If Voldemort had just ignored the prophecy, he probably would have conquered the WW by now. But he didn't. Voldemort made the prophecy come true because he let it control his life. He took it to be absolute truth, and I think it's a load of garbage. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 23:37:40 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:37:40 -0000 Subject: POA List of Differences (spoilers)--Shipping added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100605 Allison: I actually thought Ron (and possibly Hermione with him) was making fun of Draco in that scene. Everyone saw Draco milking his injury to gain Pansy's sympathy (I think he even said something about his arm having to come off), and I thought that by using essentially the same words Ron was mocking him. We had just seen Ron trying to walk on the leg and telling Sirius it wasn't too bad, which was why I thought he might be joking when he then gives Hermione what I thought was a very wide-eyed innocent look and says it'll probably have to come off. vmonte responds: Ron was flirting with Hermione. He was looking for sympathy, but not because he is mocking Draco. Boys are boys! My husband can milk a paper-cut for a whole week...trying get me to baby him and take care of him... vivian From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 00:35:53 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:35:53 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: <002501c44e39$42059120$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > While I am a Dumbledore supporter, I think that Dumbledore and Snape hold > the highest blame for Harry and ending the occlumency lessons. Harry is 15, > and nobody really explained the true reason why they wanted him to take the > lessons. Looking at it the way he might, just telling him the lessons will > prevent him seeing things like what happened to Arthur, isn't good enough. > In his place, I might think it was good if I could see those thing, just in > case something else happened to someone I care about. Nobody told him, till > it was too late, that they were afraid Voldemort might implant visions or > use him to spy on Dumbledore. By that time, Sirius was dead. Like Harry couldn't connect the dots himself?? He knew he was seeing things from Voldy's POV, he was afraid Voldy was trying to possess him. He even overheard the adults worrying about that possibility. Seems to me that was reason enough to work hard at his occlumency. The reason he didn't was because he'd become obsessed with finding out what was behind that door in Department of Mysteries. That was more important to him than protecting himself against the Dark Lord. He says so himself. > I can't blame > Snape for throwing Harry out, when he caught him looking at his memories. > It was such a great intrusion. I couldn't even begin to imagine how > invasive it would be for someone to look at my memories. Yet, Snape is the > adult, and he should have continued the lessons. Let's see....the son of of his worst enemy at school has pried into his most private and humiliating memories - which happen to be about traumas inflicted by said father. I honestly don't see how Snape could have continued after that. It was almost impossible for him to stand being in the same room as Harry, much less talk to him. I think at the beginning > of fifth year, if not before, Dumbledore should have told Harry everything. > Once Voldemort had returned to his body, it wasn't time to protect Harry > from the truth anymore. So, to me, he and Snape are the ones to blame for > occlumency being ineffective and the lessons stopping. Frankly I'm not at all sure knowing the full truth would have made Harry work harder at Occlumency, given that his motivation for not doing so was his obsession with that closed door. He is told it is necessary to learn Occlumency to protect his mind from the Dark Lord. Hermione even brings up the possibility of Sirius' capture being a trap. Harry neglects opening the package from Sirius and so discovering the mirrors which would have quickly established that S was safe. He forgets that Snape is a member of the OoP and doesn't turn to him until it's too late. Nor does it occur to him to try to find Snape after their escape from Umbridge and to discover if Snape got his message and what he had learned. I'm afraid it all boils down to it being Harry's own fault he falls into the trap. Understandably he is not thinking clearly through his fear for Sirius but he wouldn't have been open to Voldemort's meddling if he'd worked at his occlumency. And he didn't work at his occlumency because he'd decided finding out what was behind that door was more important. From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 01:03:50 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:03:50 -0000 Subject: What It's Like To Be Dumbledore (was: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > Dumbledore is in a terrible position and I don't think many people > stop to think about what he has gone through and what he is going > through now. I have. ;) Dumbledore must be in a great deal of emotional pain and distress to come so close to breaking down in Harry's presence, (burying his face in his hands, the tear). Think about it: every member of the OoP is somebody DD's taught and nurtured from childhood and who is now going into harm's way under his orders. He must be feeling every bit as awful about Sirius death as Harry, not to mention guilt and empathy for Harry's suffering. Everybody's looking to him, Dumbledore, for wisdom and leadership just when he thinks he's messed up big time causing Sirius' death and serious trauma to Harry. Now he doubts his own judgement but what can he do? There's nobody he can pass the load to, the galleon stops with him. *Harry's* certainly in no shape to take over the leadership of the Anti-Voldemort front, he still needs his mentor. And a mentor's lot is not a happy one. From Merlin to Obi-Wan Kenobi it means training up a boy you've come to love for a terrible destiny, one you can do nothing to avert or lighten. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 9 21:43:01 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 17:43:01 -0400 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher References: Message-ID: <0c7501c44e6a$bd316f50$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100608 I'm not sure that Harry is necessarily a special case, but there's something niggling me. I don't think that Harry needed to know all about what was going on, but there should have been a way to reach him. Snape didn't even try to find a way to make him see the importance of occlumency. I've tried to put myself in Harry's position, and I still haven't found the words that might have reached me, and I guess you can't communicate to someone who doesn't want to listen. Wasn't there a single person that Harry would have trusted implicitly. I guess not. He didn't even listen to Hermione. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 9 22:42:00 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:42:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: mentions of Luna? References: Message-ID: <0cf601c44e72$fa2937a0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100609 Give Neville a couple more years, and you may see a totally different young man. Luna just may be the support and catalyst he needs. I, too, was touched by her encounter with Harry after Sirius' death, and I thought, lord, she'd be good for him. Then again, as Snape so often says, I just don't see things playing out that way. My question is, why aren't sparks flying between Harry and Hermione? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From melaniertay at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 23:23:49 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:23:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <20040609191359.8305.qmail@web52407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100610 AF wrote: > > I suppose everything in life can be somehow linked to everything else if the connection is stretched enough, but I don't accept the argument that discontinuation of the lessons was responsible in any way for Sirius' death. It was Harry's inability or unwillingness to cooperate and his hostility toward Snape that held him back. Harry had been told of the importance of the lessons; he knew it was in his own interest to master the art and that this was not being done for amusement and yet... Sure Snape ended the lessons - but even if he hadn't, there's no indication that Harry would have cooperated any more than he already had. Without practice, his progress would have stalled, leaving him with that dangerous "little bit of knowledge" we all know about. Innate ability may have been there, but mastery required effort on Harry's part, and effort was something he just couldn't put forth.. Snape couldn't make Harry learn, he could only teach - the rest was up to Harry, who couldn't or > wouldn't accept what was offered. I'm new here and loving this discussion. It's very interesting. I thought I'd add my 2 cents. Personally, I think if you can't see Snape's discontinuation of lessons as responsible for Sirius' death, than you can't really see Harry's inability to master it (for whatever reason) as responsible either. Snape is who he is and because of this even Dumbledore knows it was a mistake to have him teach Harry. Harry is a fifteen year old boy that does thoughtless things sometimes. Hardly news worthy. Harry is also a pawn of the wizarding world. He has no real obligation to do anything for the wizarding world. Half of me would like to see him run away to America or something. To me it's heroic that he stays. A prophecy made by a quack is hardly reason to think Harry should suddenly metamorphosis into a perfect person out of "responsibility". He's a kid (allbeit a fictional one). I think trusting Snape is probably a mistake, but who knows? He could be a great guy deep down. The reason Sirius is dead is because there is a war going on. In war, people die. I think it's quite inappropriate to assign blame in such a situation to anything, but the war. I'm sure there are people that were in real wars that could have made a better decision here or there and saved someone's life. Is it right to go back 5 degrees from Kevin Bacon and then hate them for a bad decision they could not have known the outcome of? "Mel" From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 23:51:07 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:51:07 -0000 Subject: Oak King vs Holly King = Voldemort vs Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100611 This is more of an inquiry at the moment, but I was wondering if there's ever been any discussion of the Celtic myth of the Oak King and Holly King in connection to HP? I tried doing a search on the archive, but came up with nothing. I only ask because I'm intrigued by the similarities between the myth (http://www.thefirespiral.com/hollyoak.html) and HP (Harry / Voldemort). The seasonal binity, the duality, the idea of "twins" battling one another (the "twin" wands), etc. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 01:38:10 2004 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:38:10 -0000 Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100612 I wrote: > > And Harry could not use a time-turner to go back and save his > parents. BUT he COULD use it to go back and come to find out that he > WAS at GH that night and that his being there made things happen as > they did. (anyone's head hurting yet?) > > > Mandy wrote: > > The Time Turner will be used, not to change time, but to ensure it > happens the same way. Harry survived Godrick's Hollow because he was > there as Timeturner/Harry and helped to keep himself alive. How would Harry be able to keep himself alive, other than to warn/ask Lily to sacrifice herself for him? > > But surly the question is why? Why send Harry back to Godricks Hollow > to keep himself alive into adulthood to face Voldemort in the > future? Other than keeping Harry alive, which is important, but what > benefit is there to the over all story line? Other than it being > rather fun? How will it affect Harry finally vanquishing > Voldemort? > > Is DD hoping that, in the looping of time back over itself, that one > time through TimeTurner/Harry will be successful in defeating > Voldemort completely at Godrick's Hollow and not just reducing him to > dust? Practice makes perfect right? But if Harry is successful in > leaving himself alive as a baby with the scar, an orphan and famous > but with all threat of Voldemort gone won't we have a paradox? All > other events would still be unchanged Sirius would still be wrongly > imprisoned in Azkaban, Snape still a traitor to the DE? Is there > some event inside this circle of looping time that has to be > changed? But again if we start changing things inside the loop we > again end up with a paradox. OK, now my head is aching! > {snip] > > I love this whole Harry in Godrick's Hollow idea, but how and can it > be used to further the saga, and not just be an interesting > interlude? > > Am I making any sense? Any thoughts? > > Cheers Mandy, who's just had a horrible thought, what if Harry is > stuck in this repeating looping time scenario, where every time he > grows up DD hopes that Harry is strong enough to finally kill > Voldemort, but every time Harry fails at Godrick's Hollow, he is > doomed to go back and relive his miserable life over and over and > over again until he is successful. Now that's a vision of Hell. > > > > > Cheers Mandy This isn't how i had thought that scenario would go. I thought Harry would go back, thinking he could somehow save his parents, then get there and realize he has to cause things to happen as they already did, then come back in time to fight Lord Thingy with some new insight that the Time-traveling has given him. But what that insight might be, only God (and JKR) knows... Gorda From Snarryfan at aol.com Wed Jun 9 23:21:33 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:21:33 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100613 Kyntor wrote: > > Snape might feel he is justified in > doing this since he is trying to teach Harry occlumency, but what he > is not justified in doing is making fun of Harry when these memories > affect Harry. > When did Snape make fun of his memories ? He asked *one* question about Marge's dog. He *never* made a reflexion about the Dursley. He's even paler after he have seen Cedric's death. In fact the fact that he never said "A muggle?! And you supposed to save us?, in a toilet, tsktsk, what your fans would say ?", and made no sign of pleasure abou it, is strange. His acts and his silents are more talking than his words. He even compliment him. A la Snape, but it's a compliment, from Snape to a Gryffindor, to a Potter! And I think that he made indirectly something about the Dursley. Every year, someone see something about the Dursley, but noone thought to act. This year, they finally told them two words. And this year, it's Snape who find about them (or mostly about DiddyKins). I think he said something like if he didn't care, to Remus or Albus, and he let them find something to do. He doesn't want be find being kinda nice toward Harry. Remember, he made a big fuss when he 'saved' Harry in the Shack, but his goal was Sirius' arrest. It was his first preoccupation. Proving that Remus helped him ( and he did, passively) was the second, and protect the children, not the last, but not the first. But when he really saved Harry, in the first year, he never talked about it! He spent the entire year to play the guardian angel, and if Quirrel didn't have say it, we (and Harry) would never know it. It's not in his character to hide something like that. Why did he never told him "without me, you'd be dead before you turn 12 !" ? He doesn't want to be seen acting nicely for him.Now, is it an act for the Slytherin ( I don't believe it, he's naturally against Potter. And Gryffindor. And many things.), or is it an attempt to stay in his comfortable world, plus a fear to change from teen!Snape to adult!Snape? Christelle From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jun 10 01:45:05 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:45:05 -0400 Subject: Liability was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's liability Message-ID: <168F47F4.1FD4B805.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100614 "Mel": > Personally, I think if you can't see Snape's discontinuation of > lessons as responsible for Sirius' death, than you can't really see > Harry's inability to master it (for whatever reason) as > responsible > either. Oryomai: So here's where we are with this. Everyone made mistakes: Severus discontinued lessons, Harry didn't try to learn, Dumbledore didn't let Harry in on what was going on. Remedies to these mistakes: Severus should grow up, Harry should too, Dumbledore needs to let everyone else in on his master plan. But in the end, the only person to blame for Sirius' death is Sirius himself. He disobeyed orders by Dumbledore and Severus (although I'm a little unclear about what Severus said to Sirius...I tend to think it was more of a "Stay here and wait!" with an insult thrown in as opposed to an order). Sirius went to the MoM knowing that he was a wanted man and that there was a good chance he would die. Sirius knew it was a risk. Sirius didn't care; he had to save Harry. I think that Sirius was glad to die knowing Harry was saved. This could be a Harry/James parallel. Sirius couldn't save James, but he could save James' son. Oryomai From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 00:57:50 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:57:50 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: > According to one article I found on > Sir Percival, legend has it that Percival was originally a thief who > became a knight after proving his knightly qualities. Which, comparably, weren't to the standard of the other knights of the Round Table. Didn't Sir Percivale always have a reputation of being somewhat naive and barbarous to the ways of the world (This, in part, due to his mother sheltering him and his brother)? Percivale's *hinderance* by his mother could be an interesting parallel with Molly's determination to keep her children from being exposed to the war 'because they're just children'. > At the beginning of Order of the Phoenix, Harry dreams of Ron and > Hermione wearing crowns. I do remember that dream and had been wondering if there could be some parallels, beyond the prefect symbolism, between Ron/Hermione and King Arthur and Queen Guinevere. This could be synonimous with the song Draco sings at Ron later on, "Weasley is our King". > "Weasley is our King" and the winning Quidditch > match. But there are definitely more subtle readings you could give > that if you look. > > ...Ron as heir to his father... Well, popularly, King Arthur only had one son and technically heir in the Arthurian Legends and I'd rather not connect Ron to that figure. However, playing on my paranoia a bit, going back to the chess game of PS/SS. There are two kings in chess. The White King (Voldemort or maybe Slytherin) and the Black King (Dumbledore or Gryffindor). The song Draco sings had first been sang by Slytherins (arguably, their "King" being Slytherin, Voldemort is Slytherin's heir), allbeit, mockingly. The song later became a Gryffindor song. "Weasley is our King"... the Slytherin King or the Gryffindor King? The "Weasley is our King" song may have also been a possible clue to Arthur Weasley's assention to Minister of Magic as well. Arthur basically becomes "King" of the Wizarding World. Maybe or most likely with the help of Dumbledore (Merlin figure). However, the parallels with HP get dodgy in that there can be parallels to other resources beyond the Arthurian Legends. Jane Austen, Shakespeare, "The Chronicles of Narnia" and various Celtic or Greek myths to name just a few examples. Who can we honestly say Harry is based on? Voldemort? Ron? Hermione? From jlaming426 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 02:13:40 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:13:40 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100616 Sherry wrote: I was thinking about this yesterday. Whenever Harry used the map in the book, it was to go to Hogsmeade. at those times, Ron was already in Hogsmeade, wasn't he? So Harry wouldn't have seen Peter's name because Peter was with Ron. after Peter faked his death by Crookshanks, we don't know where he was, except that he ended up in a bottle in Hagrid's hut on the fateful day. I think he must have been off the grounds in some way every time Harry looked at the map, otherwise, Harry would have seen his name. Unless Harry just wasn't looking in the right place, being focused on who might catch him sneaking out, not on who might be wandering on the grounds. If that makes any sense. Luckie: But why didn't the twins ever notice Pettigrew when they had the map? Ron was in his third year in PoA, they had had the map since their first year, so they had 2 full years in which to stumble on Pettigrew's name. The only thing I can think of is that 1) they didn't know who Pettigrew was (Although I think they did - can anyone find them mentioning Sirius's supposed crimes in canon?) or that, like Harry, they were simply looking at the part of the map they needed to escape at that particular moment - which wouldn't have been gryffindor tower, where Peter was. ~Luckie dorapye: I was skimming through PoA to find canon regarding the map and PP. Harry only actually use the map once before PP fakes his death again and disappears (to Hagrid's Hut, more later..) At this point, he uses the map to observe the corridors around the one-eyed old crone and then disappears down the tunnel; Ron is already in Hogsmeade, but even if we assume that he did not take PP with him (would PP *want* to leave the safe school grounds, if he's scared that sirius is after him? I think Scabbers would have protested evry strongly if Ron had tried to take him to Hogsmeade)then Harry would not have even cast his eye over the Gryffindor common room or dorms, so would not have identified PP on the map. However, Lupin says somethign very interesting in the Shrieking Shack when explaining how he saw Peter: "...'I wastched you (the trio) cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid and set off back towards the castle. But you were now accompanied by someone else." Now, we know how Scabbers was discovered in Hagrid's hut, and I think it is safe to assume that he had been hiding in the milk jug in Hagrid's hut since before the trio arrived that evening. So why, if Lupin was looking at the map and observed the trio going into the hut, did he not spot PP til they *left*? The answer would be that Hagrid's hut is a blind spot on the map. It could be, as some have speculated, outside the Hogwarts grounds, or it could be that when Messrs Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs were designing their map, they left Hagrid's hut a blind spot, as they were not likely to need info on who was moving around in there for their marauding adventures; they only needed the corridors and rooms of the castle, some of the grounds and the tunnels to show mischief-inhibiting foes. Hagrid, well we know if he catches the trio out after curfew, the most they get is a stern shouting at from him, he certainly doesn't dob them into to their head of House. I'm willing to bet, with his fondness for James and co, he took a similar attitude with MWPP. Hagrid's hut was never a threat to the Marauders, so they didn't bother to cover it on their map; you could see who went in and who came out, but the hut was a blind spot. Of course, Peter would know this, which explains why he turned up there. He'd have known that Harry had the map, could've guessed that with Lupin around now, the map may find itself in the hands of teaching staff who might actually be able to work it and would see him. A very good reason to fake his death and hole himself up in one of the few safe places within Hogwarts grounds where he would not have been identified by the map. And that's with Buckbeak chained up there and being fed on rats - which just go to show how desperate Peter must have been to evade his old friends. Jim replies: If this has been covered recently please forgive my late appearance at the dance I did look and found many past discussions of some of these points. This thread prompted me to question the Marauder's Map to discern or filter information once more (I really don't need much help me start questioning things. ;-P I found a few past posts, which explored the Map. Here is my rehashing: How could the user of the map, read all the names that are available in the school and on the grounds? Look at a Common Room in the evening and all you would see is a pulsating, black splotch of dots and letters. The same would hold true in the hallways during class changes and the Great Hall at meal times. Harry never comments on a sea of moving dots that could be flowing around the map. Why didn't Fred and George see Scabbers!Peter with Ron before they gave the Map to Harry? When Fred & George gave the Map to Harry, he doesn't see himself on it until he exits the classroom where he received it. Does this mean it can't see into classrooms? But it does see into DD's office as Harry notes that DD is pacing. It also sees Peeves in the Trophy room and Mrs. Norris " prowling on the second floor." If Mrs. Norris shows up on the Map, does Crookshanks, Trevor or Hedwig? How about Centaurs, Werewolves or House Elves? And then there is Time Shifting Harry and Hermione? Dorapye speculates that there are dead spots, i.e. Hagrids' Hut. I like that; safe zones maybe? Was it designed with these Dead Spots for a specific reason or were they areas that the creators just didn't get to? Could it be that the Map is able to evaluate the users intent and needs, then filter and display only those who are pertinent to the mischief at hand? If you asked it, could it locate someone for you? (I've got to find Ron. Where is he?) Some posters thought maybe it shows someone only when they are moving. I don't like that one myself, there is still too much movement. Teens never sit still. Lupin warns Harry that the creators of the map would think it funny to lure Harry out of bounds into Hogsmeade. Does that infer that the Map could choose reveal, or not to reveal, information that would help the user in some way? Perhaps to satisfy the Maps sense of mischief? Remember Mr. Weasley's advice about magical objects that can think for themselves. The interaction with Professor Snape shows that there is a discerning and mischievous mind(s) at work within the map. The responses are interactive and barbed. I found an old post by *Evil*sushi which proposed that Harry "talk" to the map like Snape did and interact with his 15-16 year old father, Lupin, and Sirius. This magic, like the magic Tom Riddle used to create his diary, seems to allow the object to "think" for itself. If the Marauders could do it, why hasn't a teacher (Snape) done it to watch the castle for wayward, wandering students? The possibilities for Harry and the Map are limitless. Study of the movements on the Map could be very informative (if not invasive.) Blackmail anyone? Ambush some favorite git? WAIT A MINUTE!!!! Crouch!Moody had the Map and used it! Does this mean that Voldie knows about it and the secret passages? Whoa, this could get interesting. Harry is looking to slip out to Hogsmeade and sees the Dark Lord's army pouring into the castle through the hump- backed witch. I don't know if anyone has discussed this before. JimLaming, whose questions annoy his wife to distraction. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 02:33:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:33:58 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100618 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" > wrote: > > snip Anne: > > Severus is an adult man in his mid thirties. Certainly, he should > know better, but then so should we all. In all my years, I have found > that really the only difference between children and adults is a > little more self control, if they bother, and the size of their toys, > responsibilities, and bank accounts. Adults hurt, can be hurt, and > are hurt, just as badly as children. And they act just as stupid, > foolish and babyish as children, whether they care to admit to it or > not. Like Harry, Snape should know better...like Harry, he should > really apply knowing better to what he does. Like Harry, he doesn't. > Alla: > In all my years I found that the difference between adults and > children is much more profound than just degree of self-control. > Sure, adults can hurt just as much as children do, especially if > those adults never really got over the wounds of their childhood, but > children's psyche is much easier to break. > > > snip. > Anne: > > What bothers me about these Harry-Snape-Sirius debates is that > everyone is so quick to condemn the character they don't like and > defend the one they do...and yeah, we all do that, but some of the > sheer *venom* that gets thrown at the other character taht is painted > as 'the Bad Guy' bugs me. 'Well, they deserve what's coming to them!' > is a common attitiude, and I always think when I read that 'Oh, > really...? Have you stopped to consider that that's exactly what > people like Voldemort think right before they kill someone for > being...'different'. > Alla: > The only thing which bothers me about those debates, because for the > most part I LOVE them is when as a fan of a certain character or > characters :) I am asked question like that: > > "How dare I (well, not I, but fans of certain character or > characters; but since I a fan also, I take it as a question is asked > of me too) defend certain character or characters , because what > he/she did is indefensible. > > > My only responce to such questions is "Huh?" That is what I am here > for. > > I am NOT quick to defend or condemn the character. I do so, because I > believe in it or I do so simply for the sake of arguing. > > I don't understand and I will never understand what is wrong with it. > Anne: > > But Snape, Dumbledore, Pettigrew, Sirius--do you *really KNOW > what's going on...or just what Rowling chooses to show you? Most > everyone thought of Snape as 'just' a bastard...until we saw some of > those memories, heard some of his story...now we're not so sure, are > we? (Well, some are, but...well...that just means that it wouldn't > matter what Snaoe did--he'd still be the 'Bad Guy' to some...). > > Alla: > No, I don't know what is going on in the other characters' heads, but > I believe that I am entitled to make a judgment call based on the > facts I have right now. > > > If I will be proven wrong later, I will be incredibly happy. > > By the way, I NEVER thought that Snape was a complete bastard since > the end of book 1. Jerk? Yes. Bully? Yes. Has no business to be near > children whatsoever? Absolutely. > > > But not a complete bastard nevertheless. > > Anne: > > Please please please try and consider the 'other side' before you > jump on the 'Well this one is right, and that one is just plain > wrong', especially since we *don't* know the whole story....and we > also all have different views on how things "should" be. > Alla: > No, we don't know the whole story yet, but it is fun to jump to the > conclusions and be proven wrong afterwards. > > > Alla From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 02:46:51 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:46:51 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100619 Wow! I've been sitting back the whole day enjoying the match. Impressive debating skills by all participants. Applauses to Alla, Annemehr, Kneasy, Arya, Pippin and especially K for supplying her opponent with the canon she needed. Here is my own contribution. I think it is convenient to distinguish here between two different questions: 1. Who's to blame? 2. Who's responsible? The blame question is mainly a question of feelings and emotions, both for the characters and (no kidding!) for the group members. All I'll say about this is that Harry certainly blames himself, much more than any of the "Snape apologists" blames him. If any Snape fan needs canon ammunition, just open OotP in the famed Ch. 37. (DD's and Harry's end-of-the-year talk), and you'll get all the confirmation you need right out of Harry's own words and thoughts. And that was even *before* Harry found out about the two-way mirror. Harry blaming Snape is an emotional backlash. He just can't live with so much guilt, so he vents some of it by blaming Snape. The second question, who's responsible, is a completely different question. It was dissected to death by many investigation committees throughout history, and the bottom line usually boils down to this: If there was a major screw up, the high command is responsible. (and the bigger the screw up, the higher is the command held responsible for it) Even if you can precisly trace the causality chain leading to the failure, and it turns out it was all the fault of a single private not doing what he was told to do, the high command is still responsible. Because they should have avoided a situation in which the fate of the whole war depends of the actions of a single private. Rank, knowledge and responsibility come together. They cannot be separated. You can't be held responsible if you aren't given the authority and knowledge. If you are given rank and knowledge, you'll be responsible for both success and failure. At the bottom of the command chain stands the simple private, who frequently isn't informed about anything. He can be held responsible for only one thing: refusing to follow orders. But Harry wasn't even a private. He was officially a noncombatant. He asked to enlist in the beginning of the year and was flat out denied because of his young age. After the attack on Arthur, it became more and more obvious that this official status was absurd. Harry was conscripted to this war before he was even born. He was defending a critical front position. High command always knew that. Harry wasn't told. Only after Christmas, when he was already under enemy's attack, he was allowed some knowledge about the true situation. It was very limited knowledge, clearly not enough to function in this front position. He wasn't even told what are the enemy's real objectives. His rank was not officially updated even to a "private" status. He was told by Snape "the HEADMASTER wants me to teach you Occlumency this term". The way Harry was led to understand it, it was not DD the supreme commander appointing officer Snape as Harry's direct commander for carrying out a critical mission for the Order. It was the headmaster appointing a teacher for teaching Harry a skill that is important only for Harry's own safety. And unfortunately it was the teacher whom Harry the least trusted regarding his own safety. Snape, who did know what was the true situation and how critical the mission was, continued to maintain this false impression by immediately establishing his usual teacher/student relationship with Harry, by refusing to give Harry any information about the DoM visions, and by flatly telling Harry that he is "neither special nor important". Well, lying to the privates about the situation and the mission is a celebrated military tradition. No investigation committee would hold a commander to blame for this. The question isn't if it was nice to lie to Harry, but weather it was productive for achieving the mission. It was not. If Snape couldn't see it, then DD at least should have known that the best way to make Harry learn Occlumency was to tell him that the lives of the Order members and perhaps the whole WW depend on this. DD didn't tell him. Snape didn't tell him. And so Harry found himself in the absurd situation of fighting a war while his direct command refuses to give him the needed information or even acknowledge that he is a combatant, and his connection with both his supreme commander and HQ almost completely lost. Being Harry, he didn't sit on his hands. By that time he was already the commander of his own underground resistance force (which was getting quiet support from high command) and conducting his own line of investigation regarding the enemy's objectives. And Snape seemed to be in the way rather than helping. Then there was an emergency involving Harry's best friend and Harry acted as a friend rather than a soldier (because nobody told him he IS a soldier). This was a big mistake, and nearly lost the whole war. Getting out of this with Sirius the only casuality was sheer dumb luck. Who's responsible? The answer seems quite simple to me. There was a major screw up. DD was the supreme commander. Snape was the direct commander in the field. They knew what was the situation. Harry wasn't even in. Therefore they are responsible. Neri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 02:59:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:59:05 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Alla previously: > > > > > > > I for once LOVE reading how we are trying to defend our > > > >favourites. I also can say that Snape gets excused from almost > > > >everything by Snape apologists. So what? It is the fun of the > > > >discussion. > > > > > > "K" previously: > > > > > > Actually, most Snape apologists don't excuse Snape for almost > > > everything. I personally believe that Snape is blamed from many > > > things that he isn't guilty of. That's what I'm defending. But my > > > main point is to try and figure out these books and I can only do > > so > > > by looking at the characters in an honest way. Harry is excused > for > > > his actions far too often. Snape isn't given a second chance. > > > Alla: > > Well, that is your belief and that is perfectly fine, but let's not > > start accusing one group of fans of having worse debating style > than > > others , shall we? Please? :o) > > > > I can tell you with the same complete honesty about my belief that > > Snape IS GUILTY of many things he is accused of. Why is my belief > > will be less valid than yours? :o) > > > > > > Again, I admitted Harry's wrongdoings many many times, but I guess > > you want me to admit that Harry's wrongdoings are of THE SAME > GRAVITY > > as Snape's. THAT is never going to happen, I am telling you. :o) > > > > > > K: > > > I think I'm out of time for today and what do you mean you don't > > > have your books with you? ^-^ > > > > > Alla: > > I was not posting from home. So thanks for your help. :o) > > > > > > Alla > From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 04:00:33 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:00:33 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100623 One my first night back, I've tried to read as many of the recent posts on this thread as I can, but I'm not seeing (or have missed) one simple fact that I cannot escape when pondering this topic. Snape is supposed to be the adult. He has not behaved as one. It is frankly getting really old, this constant "Harry looks like James, so he reminds me of what James did." Snape knows very well that Harry has no conscious memory of James. He knows that Harry cannot possibly have learned any bad traits from James. He further knows that Harry's mother, on at least one occassion, tried to make Snape's life at Hogwarts a little easier. Does that not count for something? After all, Harry has Lily's eyes. Harry was wrong to dive into the Pensieve, although I wonder how Snape would react if he found out how geniunely horrified Harry was at his father's and Sirius' actions? Harry was wrong, ultimately, to not work on Occlumency in his spare time. He had the adults in his life, Snape, Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore telling him to learn Occlumency, though they didn't really say why. Only Snape, through insults, condescension and arrogance, shared much of anything. But nonetheless, Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore's reinforcement (as fleeting and secondhand as it was) should have moved Harry more. I blame Harry for a great deal. He screwed up and deep down, I think he suspected he was screwing up because he felt compelled to cover up his lack of diligence when Hermione asked. BUT... his mind felt weaker after Snape's lessons, which I still find very suspicious. he also had a very huge positive reinforcement for his visions, namely that Arthur Weasley's life was saved. And Harry was 15. I know that's not good enough for some, but I submit that perhaps those some should try harder to remember what life as a 15-year-old was like. You are self-centered, stubborn and convinced you know as much or more than your elders. And Harry has four years worth of being a target, set apart from his peers, labeled by the scar on his head, and a target for the most evil wizard anyone can remember. It's a wonder he's not MORE self-centered, frankly. But Snape is not 15. Snape knows more of the master plan than Harry does. Snape also owes Dumbledore a great deal. And with all that, Snape chose to walk away from the lessons. He chose to disobey a direct order from Dumbledore, knowing a great deal more about what was at stake, over what Dumbledore admits was a teenage grudge. Snape's hate for a man Harry barely remembers, and a man who certainly had no influence on Harry's life, kept him from doing his job. That is immaturity. And Snape is not 15. Darrin -- "Lack of Diligence" would be a great name for a band. From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Thu Jun 10 02:14:01 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:14:01 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100624 > Demetra: > I think you're on to something here. I think that Dumbledore > didn't insist that Snape restart the Occlumency lessons because > that particular mission was accomplished. > > I think it was Kneasy who said that Dumbledore and Snape are > analogous to the good cop/bad cop. I think that's true. In this > case, Snape keeps his cover as the bad guy who ended the Occlumency > lessons (and don't get me wrong, I think Sevvie gets perverse > enjoyment out of playing that part) and no one is on to the fact > that Dumbledore's goal with the Occlumency lessons was met. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I've seen this theory on several lists and it always strikes me as a desperate attempt to justify Snape's failure by blatantly overreaching canon and engaging in wild speculation running directly counter to the available evidence. Consider: Dumbledore himself says it was a mistake to let Snape teach Harry, Sirius and Remus both believe that Dumbledore will be furious when he finds out that Snape has abandoned the lessons, Dumbledore speaks "heavily" when talking about Snape's actions - a sign of disappointment and other intense emotions, Dumbledore certainly is not confident when Voldemort possesses Harry in the MoM that Harry has learned what he needs to know - in fact he is fearful for the first time in the duel. Now, to accede to this theory we have to assume that all of this representative of Dumbledore lieing, being an extremely good actor, and being extremely good at fooling EVERYONE around him, except perhaps for Snape. That is a wild and unjustified assumption, directly counter to all the evidence and made in a seemingly intense desire to somehow excuse Snape for his obvious blunders, arrogance, and ineptitude. Why did Dumbledore not just order Snape to continue Occlumency lessons? For the simple reason that he realized that he, Dumbledore, had made a grave error and that to persist would not only fail to teach Harry Occlumency, but would only make a bad emotional and psychological situation much worse for both Snape and Harry. Even if we accede to the fanciful and totally unsupported speculation about Snape and Dumbledore having some Machiavellian drama going on, this means that the people around Harry are arrogant, manipulative, unethical, and ruthless. In other words, he is perfectly justified in not trusting them and refusing to accept that they have his best interests at heart. Either way, although Harry bears some responsibility in this, neither Snape nor Dumbledore can be excused from major mistakes. Dzeytoun From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 03:20:02 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040610032002.37548.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100625 Gorda: > This isn't how I had thought that scenario would go. I thought Harry > would go back, thinking he could somehow save his parents, then get > there and realize he has to cause things to happen as they already did, > then come back in time to fight Lord Thingy with some new insight that > the Time-traveling has given him. But what that insight might be, > only God (and JKR) knows... Okay... let me see if I can make everyone's head hurt a little more. Suppose it is not to save his parents but has something to do with the Dursleys and how DD was able to convince them to take in baby Harry. moonmyyst (I like playing "what if") From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 10 04:07:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:07:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <20040609191359.8305.qmail@web52407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100626 | From: A Featheringstonehaugh | Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 15:14 PM | | I suppose everything in life can be somehow linked to everything | else if the connection is stretched enough, but I don't accept | the argument that discontinuation of the lessons was responsible | in any way for Sirius' death. It was Harry's inability or | unwillingness to cooperate and his hostility toward Snape that | held him back. Harry had been told of the importance of the | lessons; he knew it was in his own interest to master the art and | that this was not being done for amusement and yet... Sure | Snape ended the lessons - but even if he hadn't, there's no | indication that Harry would have cooperated any more than he | already had. Without practice, his progress would have stalled, | leaving him with that dangerous "little bit of knowledge" we all | know about. Innate ability may have been there, but mastery | required effort on Harry's part, and effort was something he just | couldn't put forth.. Snape couldn't make Harry learn, he could | only teach - the rest was up to Harry, who couldn't or | wouldn't accept what was offered. [Lee]: Well, if I had to work with a teacher who I knew hated me and had given me no reason to feel confident or comfortable around him/her, I would have a very difficult time. I'm a rather sensitive person; if I had been constantly humiliated and berated in my potions class by Snape, how in all Hogwarts could I feel even remotely comfortable at the thought that this hateful, nasty, horrid person could read the essence of my thoughts/memories? No matter how important it might be for me to learn Occlumency, the last person in the universe I'd want teaching me would be my--uh--nemesis. So, there would be two ways to tackle this: 1) Do everything I could to keep this horrorhead out of my mind; 2) Get really flustered and not be able to handle Professor Horrorhead. The biggest thing I see is that Snape didn't really prepare Harry; he didn't tell him plainly enough, IMHO, what to expect when the word "Legilimens" was spoken. Really, if one is going to teach something that requires clearing the mind and, in essence, centering oneself, Snape should have taken a bit of time to help Harry to get into that preparatory state. True, one wouldn't have time if suddenly besieged by Voldebeast (I like that, whoever used it), :-) but certainly, if the behavior is taught correctly, it will become second nature or a habit and certainly a lot easier to evoke when Voldebeast strikes. I know for myself that I sure would have had a rough time and probably would not have put forth a lot of effort, feeling that this horrible teacher sure wasn't putting much effort into instructing me...only into making me feel worse than I might be feeling already. Does any of this sound understandable? I think both Harry and Snape did wrong things, but a personality clash can certainly make a working relationship miserable and, sometimes, futile. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 03:24:47 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:24:47 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Who's_to_Blame_for_Sirius=92_Death_(was_Who's_to_Blame/Ending_Occulmency/Long)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100627 Brenda here... FINALLY!! I joined HPFG for this particular debate. I am soo soo overjoyed!! >>> Alla: Actually, no, we can't agree that Snape had no responsibility for Sirius death'. :) As I said many times, I think that Dumbledore had much larger portion of said responsibility, but Snape is guilty too, as far as I am concerned. I am putting the blame like that: Of course Voldemort gets his full share of blame as number one, but if we were to distribute the blame among the good guys I would put it like that: Dumbledore - 60%, Snape - 25% and Harry - 15%. <<< Umm, EXCUSE me, I have to make some minor changes: Harry ? 60%, Kreacher ? 30%, Sirius ? 10%. Notice that I do NOT blame DD for his death. I just don't see how DD telling Harry about the prophecy would actually prevent Sirius' death. I do believe it might have been a little late for Harry to know the truth, but what would have happened if Harry indeed *knew*? -------- Hypothetical Situation that Harry knew about the Prophecy at the end of 4th year -------- To me, the END of GoF might have been a good place for DD to tell Harry "everything". So let's say he did. His destiny as "murderer or else, victim" would have left him quite unsettling (well DUH), so he would have spent the whole summer obsessed and dreaming about it. Anyone disagree yet? Now, we see the evidence of Harry-LV connection from the BEGINNING of GoF. At this point, DD believes Harry feels the scar burning means LV is close by or is at his emotional peak. Throughout GoF, that is the only explanation of the scar burning. We do not know, at this point, that it was in fact the beginning of LV's Legilimency on Harry and vice versa (although I am sure DD saw it coming). How does DD even know about his scar burning -- from Sirius. Harry wrote to Sirius: "A weird thing happened this morning, though. My scar hurt again. Last time that happened " (GoF, 28. UK) But what if he had told Sirius in that letter that he had woken up from a DREAM, a dream involving LV and talk of Harry's own death? Now THAT would have been a clear indication that LV had indeed started penetrating Harry's mind. I believe DD had no idea how far LV's Legilimency had progressed on Harry (Harry's been complaining `his scar hurting' since Book 1. How da hell would you know?) Here is his problem. He doesn't completely trust adults who truly care for him. I realize this must be extremely hard on him, after all, would you if you had grown up under Uncle Vernon? But I thought after all those years and troubles at Hogwarts, he would have finally understood that there ARE other wizards who can see much bigger picture in all this (such as DD). Harry is just darn thick. He believes that he himself and *only* himself is the true hero who will save the Potterverse, which is only partially true (he needs DD's guide, Hermione's brain and Ron's support to get to that point) Then jumping to the end of GoF in this hypothetical situation, Harry knows about the prophecy (which is the stealth weapon that LV wants more than anything, other than Harry himself) AND LV is still able to penetrate Harry's mind, though unaware. Has it occurred to any of you that LV might've had been able to see/read Harry's nightmares and the prophecy itself? Then the 5th year comes. DD sees the shadow of Voldemort every time he gazes his eyes upon Harry. Harry-LV connection is growing stronger, and alas, Harry already knows the prophecy. Harry must learn about the possibility of LV penetrating his mind, but it is nearly impossible, since Harry feels the snake inside him whenever he sees DD. He wants to attack him. Harry keeps seeing the mysterious corridors in his dreams. As far as LV knows, the prophecy is kept at the Department of Mysteries. But do you think (when DD was telling Harry about the prophecy at the end of GoF) DD would have mentioned the fact that the record is being kept at DoM? He probably did not think it necessary, since he wasn't aware of H-LV connection running deeper than merely on emotional/ distance level. Again, whose fault is THAT? Dumbledore's? For not being able to draw right logic because the kid hadn't given him enough information? I THINK NOT. -------- The End of the Hypothetical Situation -------- In conclusion, I do not believe Harry learning the prophecy prior to OoP would have prevented Sirius' death. Voldemort had realized the connection after the attack on Arthur Weasley, he could have easily penetrated Harry's thoughts and acquired the "stealth weapon" himself. However, this would NOT have stopped Voldemort alluring Harry. Let us not forget that Voldemort wants Harry even more so than the prophecy. LV would lure and manipulate Harry at any cost. And thanks to Kreacher's information, LV had learned HOW to lure him out ? Sirius. LV did not have to torture Sirius at DoM. He could have chosen ANY place, and Harry would have gone any length to save Sirius (and I do love Harry for that, he's doing my job, lol) Thus, Sirius' death comes down to... : 1. Occlumency, Occlumency! Harry NOT LEARNING Occlumency. It is very obvious in the book that he simply doesn't try hard (refer to Koinonia's post). Just the mere thought of his parents' murderer reading his mind & thoughts should be MORE THAN ENOUGH to learn Occlumency. I would not have slacked off if I thought that my parents' murderer (knock on wood) is reading my mind and that he is ENJOYING the fact that I am suffering from it. I do not wish to go on and on about Occlumency lesson though, Koinonia/"K" has provided SUCH an excellent argument on this point with numerous references to the book, and for that I am deeply grateful (I was thinking "OH MY, I can sooo kiss you!" but then it might offend you, so ) 2. Not opening Sirius' Gift!! The Two-Way Mirror. Even if Harry did not succeed at Occlumency, if he had opened Sirius' gift when given to him, he would not have gone to DoM. Then why da HELL did he not open it? " `What is it?' Harry asked. `A way of letting me know if Snape's giving you a hard time. No, don't open it in here!' said Sirius `Ok,' said Harry, stowing the package away in the inside pocket of his jacket, but he knew he would never use whatever it was. It would not be he, Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety " (OoP, 462. UK) Err, "but he knew he would never use whatever it was"?!?!?? Can you imagine, all those nights, when he could have talked to Sirius? They could have talked EVERY NIGHT, they both would have been so happy, Sirius wouldn't have been so miserable, and to top it all, Harry would have seen that Sirius was safe and sound when Voldemort supposedly tortured him. THIS is his weakness ? his tendency to jump to conclusion without thinking things over. This will tie up to my next point, which is 3. Not listening to Hermione!!! Not listening to the true BRAINER of the trio. You would think, after almost 5 years of being with "the cleverest witch of her age" and being the first witness to how she is NEVER WRONG, that Harry will at least listen to Hermione. NO, Harry just doesn't listen and he just doesn't learn from his mistakes. Hermione makes a very valuable point after Harry's dream. " `But Harry, think about this,' said Hermione `it's five o'clock in the afternoon the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?' " (OoP, 645. UK) To me, that makes perfect sense. But does our Harry react to this "cool use of logic"? " `Anyway, the Department of Mysteries has always been completely empty whenever I've been --' `You've never been there, Harry,' said Hermione quietly. `You've dreamed about the place, that's all.' " (OoP, 645. UK) Harry uses Umbridge's fireplace afterwards. ONLY BECAUSE Hermione begged him to check before he does anything stupid (like going to the Ministry). If that doesn't spell out "reckless" and "irrational", I dunno what does. Of course Harry is not perfect, he is only human after all, and true, he is only a 15-year-old boy. However he clearly wishes to be treated as adults, yet he fails to realize that being an adult comes with a high price, especially for someone who has been "marked" such as himself. Harry is growing up, and this sort of rebellion is totally understood (after all, we've all been there, done that ? wells except for dueling with the most evil wizard). It seems to very clear to me, especially after reading this editorial that Sirius' death was necessary, and this is how I am coping with his death. (The editorial talks about the Wizard Chess scene in Philosopher's Stone and how it reflects the entire HP saga.) He died for things that are "worth dying for", and I reckon he'll be much happier reuniting with James and Lily in "after life" than being stuck at the "Grim-Old" Place. Oh, and as for Snape I believe he did everything he could to help Harry and the Order, AS ALWAYS. If it wasn't for Snape to alert the Order that Harry had set off to the Ministry, he would have died, period. And as for Snape being unfair to Harry in Potions lesson it was suggested that maybe he does so to prepare Harry for all the necessary potions that he needs to know for the final showdown? And he "favors" Slytherin students to unprepare them? Harry is the only one Snape watches out for in Potions class, no? Besides Neville but I think I would also pick on him if I was Snape For more information, go to -- it is an excellent essay on Professor Snape. From verysherryk at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 03:30:49 2004 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (Sheryl Klingbeil) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040610033049.60741.qmail@web60205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100628 jimlaming wrote: > Crouch!Moody had the Map and used it! Does this mean that Voldie > knows about it and the secret passages? Whoa, this could get > interesting. Harry is looking to slip out to Hogsmeade and sees > the Dark Lord's army pouring into the castle through the hump-backed > witch. I think PP is more likely to tell Voldie about the secret passages, but then again someone would probably see an army of DE's marching through Hogsmeade. Of course, they could always apparate in the cellar, couldn't they? Definitely something to think about. VerySherryK From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 04:47:34 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:47:34 -0000 Subject: Harry as last DADA teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100629 Dzeytoun: Uhm, speak for yourself. This is a problem SOME guys have, not all of us. I also am of somewhat more advanced years than Harry, and I think he was an idiot. If any teacher had ever tried something like that with me I would have screamed all the way to the courtroom. Geoff: Sorry, I left out a word. It's an "English" (and even "British") male thing. Your last sentence reveals that you are probably from the US. quigonginger: But, back to the original thread of the post, I walked away with the pride of knowing I had stood my ground, never let them see me cry, and had borne the battle by myself. Back in those days that meant honour, pride, dignity, and courage. Nowadays, it means lawsuit. Which is better? I guess that depends on your generation. Bookworm: I don't think it is an American vs. British thing. Or even a male or generational thing. It's a personality thing. When my son had a problem with a teacher, he came to me for help (he was 8 y/o at the time). When my daughter (12 y/o) had trouble with a teacher this year and I asked if she wanted me to say something she refused, saying it would make things worse. Similar situations, different personalities. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 04:54:56 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:54:56 -0000 Subject: Flitwick canon and movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100630 > Potioncat wrote: > One of the comments that comes up is that Flitwick is very different > in this movie than he was in books or previous movies. I don't > think Flitwick is in the movie at all. Warwick Davis is playing a > different wizard. Here's a site for IMDB. Does anyone know if he > is credited as Flitwick on any other cast listing? > http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0304141/ He is credited as Flitwick in both PS/SS and CoS, but only as "Wizard" in PoA. GoF is *not* listed under his filmography: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0001116/ Ravenclaw Bookworm From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Jun 10 06:25:07 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:25:07 -0000 Subject: Flitwick canon and movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100631 > > Potioncat wrote: > > One of the comments that comes up is that Flitwick is very different > > in this movie than he was in books or previous movies. I don't > > think Flitwick is in the movie at all. Warwick Davis is playing a > > different wizard. Here's a site for IMDB. Does anyone know if he > > is credited as Flitwick on any other cast listing? > > http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0304141/ > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > He is credited as Flitwick in both PS/SS and CoS, but only > as "Wizard" in PoA. GoF is *not* listed under his filmography: > http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0001116/ > ------------------------------- There's been so many interviews since the film, but I recall one very recently with Cuaron commenting that Flitwick had a youthing makeover. They decided to make him more young looking and also, there was a comment about his discussions with JRK about what he could have at the Welcome feast. He originally wanted "little people" playing a piano by jumping around on the keys or something byt she nixed that and said he could still have the chorus--that it'd be a good group for Hogwarts to have and, I could swear I recall the comment that she agreed that Flitwick would be the appropriate one to head this chorus. So, er, just chek for an interview with Cuaron where they talk about PoA and the filming. That should narrow it down. ;) Arya From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 07:01:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:01:45 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "" > wrote: Sherry Gomes: > Harry neglects opening the package from Sirius and so discovering > the mirrors which would have quickly established that S was safe. He > forgets that Snape is a member of the OoP and doesn't turn to him > until it's too late. Nor does it occur to him to try to find Snape > after their escape from Umbridge and to discover if Snape got his > message and what he had learned. Geoff: yes, but let's look at the situation. '"I want you to take this," he (Sirius) said quietly, thrusting a badly wrapped package roughly the size of a paperback book into Harry's hands. "What is it?" Harry asked. "A way of letting me know if Snape's giving you a hard time. No. don't open it in here!"....... ..."I doubt if Molly would approve - but I want you to use it if you need me, all right?" "OK" said Harry, stowing the package away in the inside pocket of his jacket, but he knew hewould never use it whatever it was.' (OOTP "Occlumency" p.462 UK edition) ' Harry pulled some crumpled robes out of the very bottom of his trunk to make way for folded ones and, as he did so, noticed a badly wrapped package lying on a corner of it. He could not think what it was doing there.' (OOTP "The Second War Begins" p.755 UK edition) OK, so Harry doesn't want to use in case it endangers Sirius. But, it is pushed into his hands at a time when everyone is going round in ever decreasing circles because of packing and leaving etc. Sirius stops him looking at it there and then and it gets stowed away into his trunk in the rush of unpacking at Hogwarts. Is it ilttle wonder that he forgets about it? Never done something similar? I've have. I think that to suggest that Harry later on deliberately ignored the package is unfair. His thought was probably "Oh, yes, Sirius' package. I'm not going to use whatever's in it but I'll have a look at it later when I've got a bit of time..." From littlekat10 at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 04:41:02 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:41:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's liability References: Message-ID: <0df101c44ea5$22afbf50$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100633 Lee talked about Snape being Harry's nemesis. I'm wondering who else could have/should have taught Occlumancy. McGonagal? Dumbledore? Flitwick? Bins? Anybody but Snape. Or was Snape chosen because it would be harder for Harry to learn, thus giving him a tougher situation in which to practice? I may not be making much sense and I'm sorry if I have muddied the waters a bit. Littlekat From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Thu Jun 10 04:19:05 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:19:05 +1000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long Message-ID: <4F5D6362-BA95-11D8-86E2-000A95E19732@optusnet.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 100634 On 10/06/2004, at 12:46 PM, nkafkafi wrote: > Who's responsible? The answer seems quite simple to me. There was a > major screw up. DD was the supreme commander. Snape was the direct > commander in the field. They knew what was the situation. Harry > wasn't even in. Therefore they are responsible. Sorry to make my first post here a further dumping on Dumbledore (I think JKR hands him possibly even more problems than poor Harry cops), but I think the responsibility for Sirius death lies pretty much on old Albus. If DD had been straight up with Harry about the Voldemort situation and the whole prophecy, then Harry wouldn't have been blindly responding to a (fairly understandable) teenage desire to solve the world's problems. This may have undone the work that was the entire point of Harry's warding to the Dursley's, however, in providing too much information too soon, but I agree with Dumbledore in that Harry's defeat of an ephemeral Voldemort (not to mention a bloody BASILISK) at the end of second year (CoS) should have signaled that Harry was made of a tough enough stuff to take whatever further news DD could have delivered. So in short, I think Sirius death is attributable to DDs incredible reluctance to tell Harry why he's The One. (See? By using capitalisation from 'The Matrix' I'm still using a Warner Bros. property and no-one has to pay royalties! Genius!) Shoujo Bill (Short Bio/Intro Follows) 22yo. I write music for film, TV and theatre, desperately trying to kick start my career. Also doing post-grad music technology studies at the Queensland Conservatorium of Music (I'm from Australia - G'Day). Crowning Achievement : Scoring "The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe" for the theatre and getting rave reviews and audience niceness. I'm a Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, Draco/Himself shipper. My fave book is OotP (I had a teacher in 7th grade _exactly_ like Umbridge and I boarded at school then, so I really feel for Harry in that book. I had everything but the bleeding quill.) Best of All, my Birthday is tomorrow, all my assignments are due and I'm gonna see PoA!!!! All done. -- Bill Cooney Original Music for Film, Television, Theatre and Multimedia From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 05:28:36 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:28:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius -- Romantic Interests? (Re: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100635 "nmjenson" wrote: > > Sirius is not gay! Come on guys .... he had a lot on his mind after > > graduation besides dating ... Lord Voldemort. In some cases, like > > the examination room, perhaps Sirius is oblivious to his > > admirers ... which is completely possible. Remember they were only > > 15. Most 15 year old boys are still boys ... not quite used to the concept of dating yet. Oh hahaha no, I don't believe, not for one second, that he is gay!! Yes, I agree with you, I think he had too much in his mind to worry about girls, namely the most-evil-wizard coming after his Godson ... and he spent most of his 20's in Azkaban, poor guy. Although some of popular 15-year-old boys do think about dating I believe? 15 will be, what, Grade 9? YEah, guys will start to show more interest in girls ... still not suggesting that Sirius is gay, that'll break my heart... More and more I think about it, I really do hate Voldemort!! (haha surprise surprise)! I know he's a necessary evil and all, so I can't possibly place the morals of norm on him, but just to see how many lives he has ruined ... shudders Brenda, who has mentioned Sirius in every single post of hers, she thinks. From tanilynphillips at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 05:38:34 2004 From: tanilynphillips at comcast.net (tanilyn) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:38:34 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency was Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100636 I'm sorry for snipping this down to the bone but I really wanted to respond to these particular points for now. By the way I am a lurker that does not keep up with this list regularly due to time restraints, so hi. rowena_grunnionffitch: > Like Harry couldn't connect the dots himself?? He knew he was > seeing things from Voldy's POV, he was afraid Voldy was trying to > possess him. He even overheard the adults worrying about that > possibility. Seems to me that was reason enough to work hard at his > occlumency. First I would imagine that a lot of Harry's inner core self is pretty contaminated this entire year and is very much as responsible for his attitude change as his frustration, anger and confusement (I know that isn't a word)of being kept in the dark. His mind is being twisted at first without Voldemort's knowing and then eventual knowledge. rowena_grunnionffitch: > > Let's see....the son of of his worst enemy at school has pried > into his most private and humiliating memories - which happen to be > about traumas inflicted by said father. I honestly don't see how > Snape could have continued after that. It was almost impossible for > him to stand being in the same room as Harry, much less talk to him. > Yes it is hard knowing someone saw your worst, most private memories. And I do not blame Snape from an emotional, human standpoint (he is my second most loved character). But from your paragraph above you do not afford Harry the same reason not to continue with the lessons. Snape gets to hide his humiliating memories from a legilmens novice, but Harry has to just deal with it from an expert and try his hardest though he feels it makes him more vulnerable to his most hated professor and whoever else to see his. I know it is not stated explicitly as his reason for not trying so hard but the whole experience was not on a halfway even playing ground. It was just as much uncomfortable for Harry on a number of areas (safety, vulnerbility, distrust etc.) as it was for Snape, but Snape knew the whole scoop. Not so Harry. Tanya -- who loves both Harry and Snape and wishes they saw in each other what I do. Two hurting guys that need a break. From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 10 07:37:15 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:37:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's liability References: <0df101c44ea5$22afbf50$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <023001c44ebd$c0f47c10$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100637 > Lee talked about Snape being Harry's nemesis. I'm wondering who else could > have/should have taught Occlumancy. McGonagal? Dumbledore? Flitwick? > Bins? Anybody but Snape. Or was Snape chosen because it would be harder > for Harry to learn, thus giving him a tougher situation in which to > practice? I may not be making much sense and I'm sorry if I have muddied > the waters a bit. > > Littlekat Well it couldn't have been Binns, he's a ghost, he can't do magic. Personally, I believe DD's reason for choosing Snape was to let both Harry and Snape have a deeper understanding of each other in hopes that the enmity between them can be alayed. They both seemed to have been affected by what they saw, Harry by the Pensive scenes and Snape by Harry's memories of Dudley's bullying. At this point, I wonder if actually teaching Harry Occlumency was high on Dd's priority list. He could've been hoping that Harry would tell him his Voldemort induced visions and then he (DD) would be able to deduce Voldemort's plans from them knowing they're sent on purpose. Alina. From captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 10 06:43:40 2004 From: captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au (captain_suburbia) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:43:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin's history with Dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100638 I hope this isn't a repeat (I have looked!)..... In PoA when Harry and Lupin are discussing Dementors, Lupin says something to the effect of "I don't pretend to be an expert at fighting Dementors, Harry - quite the contrary...." (page 141, Australian edition) So, what, has he had an incident before? Kind of implies that he's failed to do so in some way, doesn't it? Any thoughts, theories? From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Thu Jun 10 07:51:27 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:51:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin's history with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "captain_suburbia" wrote: > I hope this isn't a repeat (I have looked!)..... > > In PoA when Harry and Lupin are discussing Dementors, Lupin says > something to the effect of "I don't pretend to be an expert at > fighting Dementors, Harry - quite the contrary...." (page 141, > Australian edition) So, what, has he had an incident before? Kind of > implies that he's failed to do so in some way, doesn't it? Any > thoughts, theories? Now Olivier Seeing that JKR has stated that the Dementors were symbols of depression and since they force people to relive their worst moments, I have always understood this comment as a subtle clue to the fact that Lupin was a werewolf (plenty of horrible moments to relive) and that he knew James and Sirius (among Lupin's three best friends at that point of the story, two are dead and one is a DE on the loose, at the end of OOP, he's back ther by the way). To me, it thus seems logical to learn that he isn't a specialist at fighting depression. Olivier From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 08:00:12 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:00:12 -0000 Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100640 The way I see it it wouldn't be Harry it would be DD stuck in the time loop. The reason DD would send Harry back is because he has seem a future in which Harry never survived, so he keeps going back to fix it until he gets to a point where the only future in which Harry defeats Voldemort is the timeline in which Harry is there at GH when Voldemort tries to kill him the first time, he may not even have to do anything once he gets there, maybe all he has to do is pop up last minute with the AK already flying through the air at Baby Harry and his presence either knocks something off kilter to save BH or else the site of Older Harry shocks Voldemort into missing, or makes him some how more irrational in his future pursuits and thus easier to sidestep and defeat. With Voldemort standing there knowing that the AK backlash is coming, because he can see that Harry survives ,but Harry gets away before there is evidence that he was there, Voldemort would be more anxious to get at Harry later, thus more irrational and besides Dumbledore already knows whats coming, so time travel is necessary to make what is already happening happen, but it wouldn't have happened, or maybe it just hadn't happened yet, with out the time travel. psychobirdgirl-trying to make the brain pictures be words at 2am, and not succeeding very well. p.s. the eloquence is also failing ;) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 10 08:46:52 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:46:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's liability Message-ID: <3c.40096ec7.2df979fc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100641 In a message dated 6/10/2004 3:50:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, littlekat10 at comcast.net writes: Lee talked about Snape being Harry's nemesis. I'm wondering who else could have/should have taught Occlumancy. McGonagal? Dumbledore? Flitwick? Bins? Anybody but Snape. Or was Snape chosen because it would be harder for Harry to learn, thus giving him a tougher situation in which to practice? I may not be making much sense and I'm sorry if I have muddied the waters a bit. ============= Sherrie here: IIRC, there were only two options - Dumbledore and Snape. Occlumency is "an obscure branch of magic", and it would appear that only those two are (known to be) skilled at it. Sherrie (who apologizes for lack of citations, but she's just lent her book to a new HP convert at work!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 10:06:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:06:14 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" wrote: > rowena states: > > "And I'm afraid I sympathize with Snape's reasons for ending the > lessons. Harry knowingly invades SS's privacy in a hugely offensive > way. I'd have gone ballistic too. Frankly I think poor Snape deserves > some credit for not turning the kid into a spider and stepping on > him. ;D" Potioncat jumps in: I loved this suggestion! You know, readers also seem to forget that Malfoy had just seen them and we all know how weak the "remedial" potions excuse is, if you wonder why it involves wands, not cauldrons. And, Snape has just found an injured Slytherin boy who has been missing (two weeks?) He was upset, no doubt before he found Potter! > > Kyntor replies: > > It is real hard for me to sympathize with Snape for this. Snape did > the same exact thing when he was practicing legilimency against > Harry. Snape was burrowing down into Harry's mind for his most > painful, most private memories. Snape might feel he is justified in > doing this since he is trying to teach Harry occlumency, but what he > is not justified in doing is making fun of Harry when these memories > affect Harry. Potioncat: Can you give an example of Snape's making fun of Harry? I saw him make one comment without any sneering. Harry may have taken it as taunting, but it sounded more like concern or interest to me. IIRC, Snape conducts the sessions in a professional, manner. No, not warm and fuzzy, but that isn't Snape is it? It isn't McGonagall either. But I don't think he ever taunts or belittles Harry during these classes. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 11:42:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100643 Darrin wrote: > > But Snape is not 15. > > Snape knows more of the master plan than Harry does. > > Snape also owes Dumbledore a great deal. > > And with all that, Snape chose to walk away from the lessons. He chose to > disobey a direct order from Dumbledore, knowing a great deal more about > what was at stake, over what Dumbledore admits was a teenage grudge. > > Snape's hate for a man Harry barely remembers, and a man who certainly > had no influence on Harry's life, kept him from doing his job. > > That is immaturity. > > And Snape is not 15. Potioncat: This group seems to be in two camps: those who think canon implies Snape ended Occlumency lessons on his own because of the pensieve incident and those who think canon implies DD and Snape decided to end the lessons for some reason that may or may not have been related to the incident. Neither side intends to budge. DD didn't say it was a teenage grudge. He said he forgot how deep scars can go. I think there is a lot for us to speculate on, but all in all, there is a lot we just don't know. We don't know what really happened back at Hogwarts when Snape was a student and we don't know what happened when Snape and DD discussed the incident. Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 10 12:27:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:27:53 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: snips throughout > Anne: > > > What bothers me about these Harry-Snape-Sirius debates is that > > everyone is so quick to condemn the character they don't like and > > defend the one they do...and yeah, we all do that, but some of the > > sheer *venom* that gets thrown at the other character taht is > > painted as 'the Bad Guy' bugs me. > Alla: > The only thing which bothers me about those debates, because for > the most part I LOVE them is when as a fan of a certain character or > characters :) I am asked question like that: > "How dare I (well, not I, but fans of certain character or > characters; but since I a fan also, I take it as a question is asked > of me too) defend certain character or characters , because what > he/she did is indefensible. > My only responce to such questions is "Huh?" That is what I am here > for. > I am NOT quick to defend or condemn the character. I do so, because > I believe in it or I do so simply for the sake of arguing. > > > Anne: > > But Snape, Dumbledore, Pettigrew, Sirius--do you *really KNOW > > what's going on...or just what Rowling chooses to show you? Most > > everyone thought of Snape as 'just' a bastard...until we saw some > > of those memories, heard some of his story...now we're not so sure, > > are we? (Well, some are, but...well...that just means that it wouldn't > > matter what Snaoe did--he'd still be the 'Bad Guy' to some...). > > > > Please please please try and consider the 'other side' before you > > jump on the 'Well this one is right, and that one is just plain > > wrong', especially since we *don't* know the whole story....and we > > also all have different views on how things "should" be. > > > Alla: > > No, we don't know the whole story yet, but it is fun to jump to the > > conclusions and be proven wrong afterwards. That's the spirit! Sorry, Anne, but just for once I have to agree with Alla. I may be wrong (many thousands nod enthusiastically) but I don't consider that a valid reason for being uncertain. We're at the roulette table placing our bets and the ball is still bouncing around the wheel. Some of the bets will be made by 'rational' methods - analysis of the plot, JKR's track record, clues, etc., some are based on personal prejudices (I don't like *him*.) Over the past year (Yes! It's one year exactly since Kneasy crawled out of the woodwork) there are very few of the major characters that haven't been on the receiving end of my boot. I consider myself an equal opportunity character assassin. The glorious thing is that it's possible to dig out canon justification for rubbishing almost *anyone* in the Potterverse. The reverse is also true, but where's the fun in that? Quite a lot, actually. Without posters leaping to the defence of their favourites it would make for very short threads. Boring. This current thread (Snape, DD, Harry, with Sirius as a side order) is just the sort of thing I relish. All of them have featured in theory after theory, analysis after analysis, by poster after poster, proving - what? Not much, actually, or rather, nothing definite. The ball is still bouncing. But that doesn't stop the verbal gymnastics, the quoting of references or the partiality. It seems that some posters feel that this sometimes goes a little too far and that more consideration and understanding would be helpful. I find this a bit puzzling. I strongly uphold the convention that posters should not indulge in personal insults or rudeness directed at other posters, but fictional characters are fair game (even the sitting ducks) and if someone wants to go for DD's throat like a rabid ferret, then good luck, well done, we've got a lively thread here lads, might keep us entertained for, ooh, at least a week. Then it'll be someone else's turn. As an insensitive brute I have no empathy for any of the characters whatsoever - they are artificial constructs placed in an artificial environment and their validity depends solely on their entertainment value. JKR's puppets paraded for our delectation, disgust or delight. Take your pick. Of course, what constitutes entertainment varies according to individual tastes, be it SHIPper or FEATHERBOA fanatic; the former tending to show more involvement with members of the cast than the latter. (Having a taste for exploding inner organs and corpse-strewn landscapes being rarely found among the romantically inclined. I wonder why?) This dichotomy is usually expressed by one group generally thinking the best of any character that might be thought of as 'sympathetic' while the other group thinks the worst of anyone who has even the vaguest question mark against them. Which is everybody in the books, more or less. Which brings me back to the current thread. What to make of this lot? JKR once admitted to a member of HPfGU (face to face in the middle of a press scrum) that Sirius is intended to be 'sexy'. Oh, no he isn't. The only character with any sexual potential that I can see is Madam Rosmerta, though for those with certain, proclivities, shall we say, Bella might hit the spot (probably quite literally). No doubt there will be posters pounding their keyboards to tell me how wrong I am even before I finish this sentence - hold off a minute; I said that to make a point. To me Sirius *cannot* be sexy. A heterosexual male doesn't think of other men as sexy, he judges them by male standards, and sexiness is not on the check list. So a male reader will judge Sirius by a very different yard- stick to that employed by a female. And by male standards Sirius is not particularly admirable. Similar distinctions can be made in the way that the others are perceived, too: DD - caring, concerned / devious, manipulative. Snape - abusive, hateful / driven by demons, doing what is necessary Harry - misunderstood, vulnerable / unreasonable, selfish OK, which is right? Who knows with any certainty? Guess what? It doesn't matter. The final resolution will not be determined by majority vote; it doesn't count that I think Sirius is a creep, or that Snape is deliciously nasty, or that I wouldn't trust DD as far as I could throw Hogwarts, or that Harry is a selfish little toe-rag. Trying to apportion blame fairly when holding those views would be like trying to knit spaghetti. Better to trust your instincts, with maybe a little logic thrown in and hope somebody will disagree and get a good discussion going. What caused the debacle resulting in Sirius's demise? Causes: Harry's inability to put his hatred of Snape in perspective. It poisons all interactions between the two. No compromise was possible in his view even when instructed that it was necessary. DD being too clever by half. Snape not admitting that it wasn't going to work. He's the one in a position to judge progress or lack of it. He should have insisted that DD take over long before it blew up. Sirius being Sirius, especially when he intimated to Harry that Harry would have his support if *in Harry's opinion* Snape was being nasty. In Harry's opinion Snape is *always* nasty. And here's Sirius, his role model, bolstering his prejudices. Split 'em how you like. Half full or half empty? None is blameless, but it's Harry's total intransigence that sets the avalanche in motion. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 13:12:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:12:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <0df101c44ea5$22afbf50$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100645 "Littlekat10" wrote: > Lee talked about Snape being Harry's nemesis. I'm wondering who else could > have/should have taught Occlumancy. McGonagal? Dumbledore? Flitwick? > Bins? Anybody but Snape. Or was Snape chosen because it would be harder > for Harry to learn, thus giving him a tougher situation in which to > practice? I may not be making much sense and I'm sorry if I have muddied > the waters a bit. > x Potioncat: Snape says that Occlumency is an obscure magic. I would think that means not too many people know about it and even less know how to do it. My understanding was that there were only two options: DD or Snape. And I think Snape was risking a lot by teaching it in the first place. It could have opened him to LV via Harry. After all, I doubt if LV knows that Snape is accomplised in Occlumency. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 13:15:20 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:15:20 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" wrote: > "Obvious" to me, mainly, and that's probably a poor choice of > words. I guess I see elements of the Camelot legend in all the > characters, but not an exact blueprint. Arthur Weasley fits because > of his name; Harry because he's the lead of the series who makes the > sacrifices, etc. GEO:Aside from them being raised in obscurity, there really isn't that much of a similarity between the Harry and Arthur. Really, Harry wasn't conceived as a bastard with his father killing his mother's husband all in order to wed her. Nor does he have a half- sister trying to kill him or a bastard son that he sired with another one of his half-sisters trying to overthrow him because he tried to kill him King Herod style. Simply said there isn't much resemblance between the two and any can be chalked up as both being hero archetypes. > Again, "obvious" is probably a bad choice of words, but for me all > the clues point toward some sort of Ginny/Harry connection -- maybe > romantic, maybe tragic. GEO:I doubt it. Ginny is still a pretty minor character in the book and the next two books are probably going to focus on the war and less on the romantic aspirations of the characters. > I do think Ginny and her family's Camelot > names are significant in some way. GEO: Haven't you thought perhaps it's a reference to the fact that the Weasleys will win the position of the MoM sometime in the future ? From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 13:34:51 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:34:51 -0000 Subject: Liability was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <168F47F4.1FD4B805.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100647 Sirius knew it was a risk. Sirius didn't care; he had to save Harry. I think that Sirius was glad to die knowing Harry was saved. This could be a Harry/James parallel. Sirius couldn't save James, but he could save James' son. > > Oryomai Ok, I was just thinking here...dont mind me if its already been beaten to death :P Now, the first time V tried to kill Harry he was saved by his Mother's love. V could not touch Harry because his mother had died trying to save him...with that in mind, Is it possible that Harry will be saved by yet another dose of V because Sirius died trying to save him as well??? Just a thought that popped into my head... Jacqui From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 13:39:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:39:11 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100648 I'm starting a new thread on Occlumency to get away from the blame game. Two ideas crossed my mind as I was reading and responding to the other thread. A cover story was made up to explain why Harry was meeting regularly with Snape: Remedial Potions. It's a pretty good one actually, so long as no one walks in on the lessons. But Malfoy did. I recall some time back, many of the group were laughing at Malfoy for falling for the explanation, but think of this. Malfoy was rushing in to tell Snape that the missing Slytherin had been found and he was injured. His main thoughts were on getting help. Draco wasn't thinking too deeply about an explantion that gave him something to gloat about. But Malfoy isn't stupid and if he thinks about it at all, he's bound to wonder. And, worse, if he says something to Umbridge, she's bound to wonder. And the last thing Snape would want is Umbridge watching the remedial lessons. It may well be that this possibility played into stopping the lessons. Particularly as they didn't appear to be going well. Next idea. Occlumency is an obscure branch of magic. You wouldn't advertise your abiltiy. How does Lupin know that Snape is so good at it? At least twice he's praised Snape to Harry. Once when he talks about his Potion making skills and once with the comment about Occlumency. Is this good Lupin trying to get Harry to see Snape differently? Or is this ESE!Lupin up to no good? Potioncat From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 14:00:10 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:00:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius death In-Reply-To: <4F5D6362-BA95-11D8-86E2-000A95E19732@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <001f01c44ef3$3ed28520$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100649 Hi, After reading all the exchanges concerning who's to blame for this or that, over the last couple days, I thought I'd add something about Sirius death. I don't think that anything would have changed the final outcome. Even if Harry had truly understood the danger of possibly being tricked by Voldemort, even if he'd understood all the ramifications and the complete reasons why he would have to work on his occlumency, he would have still acted the same way. If he'd seen the vision of Sirius being tortured, he would have gone to him. It wouldn't have mattered if he'd suspected it to be a trick, he would still have gone on the chance it was real. He'd never have stayed in school and not gone to help the one adult he still trusted, and to him, his only true parental figure. Sirius would have gone after Harry, his godson and the one he is guardian to. He loves Harry, and he wouldn't have stayed behind if Harry was in danger. So, in some ways, nobody really is to blame for Sirius death, except Voldemort. And maybe, fate and their love for each other. At the time of the vision that sent Harry rushing off to save Sirius, Dumbledore was gone; he hated and distrusted Snape ... who else could he have turned to for help and advice. Even McGonagall and Hagrid were gone. A kid who has been verbally abused by an adult and who has been shown repeatedly how much that adult dislikes and even hates him, couldn't be expected to trust that adult or to turn to him in a time of desperate need. I wish, every time I read OOTP, that somehow the ending will magically change, and Sirius won't die, but I don't seriously blame anyone for it. Given the circumstances, it was almost inevitable. sherry G From stephenflynn001 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 10:44:19 2004 From: stephenflynn001 at yahoo.co.uk (stephenflynn001) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:44:19 -0000 Subject: WW Technology V Muggle Technology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100650 Hi all, This is my first post so please bear with me. I was looking through some back postings and I saw one on the above topic and I do believe that WW technology is better than Muggle technology. Simply put why fix something that is not broken. There is less risk to an individual and to the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on this? From littlekat10 at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 13:43:08 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:43:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's liability References: <0df101c44ea5$22afbf50$e60b8f45@Voov> <023001c44ebd$c0f47c10$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <0fe001c44ef0$e022a160$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100651 Alina is right that Bins can't do magic but I do not think that DD could really obtain the result that alina thinks he was looking for. After all, Snape's hatred for Harry is rather well lodged in his soul. Could it be that DD was hoping that Harry's hatred for Snape would make him stronger? More able to defend himself? Harry would certainly not want Snape wandering around in his memories so maybe DD thought that Harry would be better able to protect himself from attack. Littlekat From littlekat10 at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 13:51:09 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:51:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's history with Dementors References: Message-ID: <0fe901c44ef1$fc26c2a0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100652 Captain_Suburbia wonders if Lupin had previous experience with the dementors. I don't think that one would have to necessarily have experience with the dementors to know how horrible they can be. It is possible that Lupin has just heard stories about the things that they can do to a person. I know that in my case it's not always experience that tells me I can't handle a situation but knowledge gained from other sources. Littlekat From bd-bear at verizon.net Thu Jun 10 13:45:02 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:45:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: <20040610032002.37548.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100653 From: K G [mailto:moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com] Gorda: > This isn't how I had thought that scenario would go. I thought Harry > would go back, thinking he could somehow save his parents, then get > there and realize he has to cause things to happen as they already did, > then come back in time to fight Lord Thingy with some new insight that > the Time-traveling has given him. But what that insight might be, > only God (and JKR) knows... Okay... let me see if I can make everyone's head hurt a little more. Suppose it is not to save his parents but has something to do with the Dursleys and how DD was able to convince them to take in baby Harry.<<< I just read the part of PoA where Harry is taking fending-off-dementor lessons. It doesn't say he heard James when he was under the thrall of the boggart/dementor, it says he heard a man's voice. And then when Lupin asks "You heard James?" with a funny sound in his voice, I thought, hmm, maybe he didn't hear James because he couldn't hear James. Maybe he heard himself (Harry as an adult) as people have speculated, maybe James somehow escaped or wasn't there when Lily was attacked. Maybe the payoff at the end of the series is Harry being reunited with his father, who has long been in hiding from V. Maybe the adult Harry does go back and do something to save Lily and himself as a baby and at that time finds out James wasn't killed after all. I'm not sure if there's anything in canon to support this theory or if anything has been mentioned that confirms that James was definitely killed and/or that Harry definitely heard him. If you can think of anything, feel free to dispute my theory. Barbara, playing "what if" along with everyone else bd-bear From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:34:32 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:34:32 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Snape's hate for a man Harry barely remembers, and a man who certainly > had no influence on Harry's life, kept him from doing his job. > > That is immaturity. > > And Snape is not 15. Granted Snape's initial hostility to a child is petty and unworthy but after five years Harry has given SS plenty of reason to dislike him for himself, not his father. Secondly Snape does *not* let his feelings interfere with his duty to the Order or to Harry as a teacher, (unsympathetic and bullying as he is he has risked his own life to save Harry's at least twice, and the kid certainly has learned his potions as we see at the OWLS ;) Snape doesn't abandon the occlumency lessons until Harry mortally offends him by flagrantly violating his privacy. In fact a shaky sort of rapport seems to be in the offing as both learn more of the other through seeing their memories - until Harry blows everything out of the water by prying. Looking into the pensieve was like reading Snape's letters, but worse. I repeat I cannot blame SS for going ballistic and refusing to have anything more to do with Harry. I'd have done at least as much in his place. He may be to blame for not telling somebody; DD or McGonegal, that he had stopped the lessons so they could make alternate arrangements. Always assuming he didn't report it to somebody, we really don't know. But DD must have learned about it through Lupin and/or Sirius and he didn't do anything about it. From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:47:44 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:47:44 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > Either way, although Harry bears some responsibility in this, neither > Snape nor Dumbledore can be excused from major mistakes. Snape is 'a superb occlumens', (he'd pretty much have to be to survive as a double agent in Voldy's camp) making him the obvious choice to teach Harry. DD may also have hoped that the forced intimacy of the process might lead to an improved relationship between the two, which might indeed have happened. Unfortunately it was emotionally impossible for Snape to continue the lessons after Harry had deliberately pried into his most private memories, DD understood this. And by then it was to late for Dumbledore to take over as he had already been forced out of Hogwarts. Presumably there was no other possible teacher still at the school and so the idea had to be dropped. I'm afraid this boils down to it being Harry's own fault. The reason he made no progress at occlumens is he wasn't trying and the reason the lessons ended was his own quite indefensible action of looking into Snape's pensieve. To expect SS to continue after that, after his most tender psychic wounds had been ripped open, is expecting too much of human nature. From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:57:22 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:57:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Well, if I had to work with a teacher who I knew hated me and had given me > no reason to feel confident or comfortable around him/her, I would have a > very difficult time. I'm a rather sensitive person; if I had been > constantly humiliated and berated in my potions class by Snape, how in all > Hogwarts could I feel even remotely comfortable at the thought that this > hateful, nasty, horrid person could read the essence of my > thoughts/memories? No matter how important it might be for me to learn > Occlumency, the last person in the universe I'd want teaching me would be > my--uh--nemesis. I personally would be strongly motivated to work hard at learning occlumency in order to keep said unfriendly teacher out of my head. ;) I wonder if DD had that in mind too.... > So, there would be two ways to tackle this: 1) Do everything I could to keep > this horrorhead out of my mind; 2) Get really flustered and not be able to > handle Professor Horrorhead. Right. The kid who can handle Voldemort, Dementors and imminent threat of death can't handle being in the presence of a disliked teacher. I don't think so. In fact Harry not only successfully blocked 'Professor Horrorhead' on at least one occasion, but got through SS's own defensives more than once. Obviously he could function in SS's presence. > The biggest thing I see is that Snape didn't really prepare Harry; he didn't > tell him plainly enough, IMHO, what to expect when the word "Legilimens" was > spoken. The first "Legilmens" would have told Harry everthing he needed to know about that. > Really, if one is going to teach something that requires clearing the mind > and, in essence, centering oneself, Snape should have taken a bit of time to > help Harry to get into that preparatory state. Why? When teaching the Patronus charm Lupin simply told Harry to find a happy memory, asked if he was ready and launched the boggart/dementor on him without further ado. He then repeated the process until Harry got the hang of it. I don't see how this is any different. Snape tells Harry what he must do, then challenges him to do it. If Harry had *wanted* to master occlumency as he wanted to master the Patronus he would certainly have done so in short order. Unfortunately he didn't. > Does any of this sound understandable? I think both Harry and Snape did > wrong things, but a personality clash can certainly make a working > relationship miserable and, sometimes, futile. Now here we are in complete agreement. Harry and Snape's miserable relationship is the fault of both, though rather more Snape's since he is the grown-up. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 15:13:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:13:27 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100657 Annemehr wrote : > Perhaps the main difference between Harry and Kreacher is that Harry > appears to have a much greater capacity to consider and decide between > right and wrong than Kreacher, who may be both insane and magically > bound (and to what extent we have no way of knowing). Del replies : But it doesn't seem to me that Harry considers things much. He reminds me very much of Percy at times. As long as Percy was at Hogwarts, he followed the local leader, DD. When he left, he naturally shifted his loyalty to his new bosses. As long as Harry is at Hogwarts, he follows DD, but that doesn't mean he's actually thought about it. It looks more like an automatic decision to me, not a conscious one. And when he *does* have to make a conscious decision, like trusting and obeying Snape, he fails. So I'm not at all sure that Harry is on the side of Good because he truly wants it. I don't feel he has truly chosen yet. The only thing he's sure of, is that he hates LV, and that is not a moral decision IMO. Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 10 15:14:28 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:14:28 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > A cover story was made up to explain why Harry was meeting regularly with Snape: Remedial Potions. It's a pretty good one actually, so long as no one walks in on the lessons. But Malfoy did. But Malfoy isn't stupid and if he thinks about it at all, he's bound to wonder. And, worse, if he says something to Umbridge, she's bound to wonder. And the last thing Snape would want is Umbridge watching the remedial lessons. > > It may well be that this possibility played into stopping the > lessons. Particularly as they didn't appear to be going well. > Pippin: I have to agree here. All we know is why the lessons were interrupted. We don't know why they weren't resumed, and until we do, any attempt to apportion responsibility between Snape, Harry and Dumbledore is premature, IMO. Potioncat: > Next idea. Occlumency is an obscure branch of magic. You wouldn't advertise your abiltiy. How does Lupin know that Snape is so good at it? At least twice he's praised Snape to Harry. Once when he talks about his Potion making skills and once with the comment about Occlumency. Is this good Lupin trying to get Harry to see Snape differently? Or is this ESE!Lupin up to no good?< Pippin: It's another clue that Lupin is a legilimens, for one thing. But it brings up something else I've been wondering about. Voldemort doesn't have a scar. How can he tell whether his attempts to plant information in Harry's head are working--unless of course he can get Snape to look for him and report back? So the Occlumency lessons are in Voldemort's interest, particularly if they don't succeed. Naturally ESE!Lupin* wants them to continue. This explains how DoubleAgent!Snape could get away with teaching Occlumency to Harry if Voldemort knew what he was doing. Dumbledore of course would be aware of Voldemort's motives, but would hope that Harry would be able to learn Occlumency well enough to foil Voldemort before too much damage was done. Of course that would make it even more imperative that Harry be told nothing about the Prophecy, or anything else that Voldemort might find useful. Pippin *for the orginal ESE!Lupin theory please see post 39362 From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 15:39:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:39:38 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100659 Del wrote: So I'm not at all sure that Harry is on the side of > Good because he truly wants it. I don't feel he has truly chosen yet. > The only thing he's sure of, is that he hates LV, and that is not a > moral decision IMO. > Potioncat: I agree, and quickly want to clarify that I think he's on the side of good, but didn't actually choose. And I think the same goes for the Sorting Hat event. He didn't choose good over evil, he Gryffindor over Draco. All he had to go on was the chatter on the train and that Draco was in Slytherin. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 15:49:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:49:12 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100660 > > Pippin: > It's another clue that Lupin is a legilimens, for one thing. But it > brings up something else I've been wondering about. Voldemort > doesn't have a scar. How can he tell whether his attempts to > plant information in Harry's head are working--unless of course > he can get Snape to look for him and report back? Potioncat: I knew we'd hear from you on this one, Pippin! :-) As far as the scar goes, IMO, it's the evidence of the connection, and it sometimes hurts in reaction, but it isn't the connection. Sort of like in modern surgery, they used to have to make big incisions that left big scars, now they can make little puncture wounds with small scars, but it's the procedure that's important, not the resulting scar. But, you brought up something I hadn't thought of, a way that Snape can get away with giving the lessons with less danger. He gives LV enough information about it to seem to be working for him. I still think it leaves Snape in extra danger, especially if LV gets any information from his own walks in Harry's mind. Potioncat From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 15:59:26 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:59:26 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Pippin: > > It's another clue that Lupin is a legilimens, for one thing. But > it > > brings up something else I've been wondering about. Voldemort > > doesn't have a scar. How can he tell whether his attempts to > > plant information in Harry's head are working--unless of course > > he can get Snape to look for him and report back? > > Potioncat: > I knew we'd hear from you on this one, Pippin! :-) > As far as the scar goes, IMO, it's the evidence of the connection, > and it sometimes hurts in reaction, but it isn't the connection. > Sort of like in modern surgery, they used to have to make big > incisions that left big scars, now they can make little puncture > wounds with small scars, but it's the procedure that's important, > not the resulting scar. > > > But, you brought up something I hadn't thought of, a way that Snape > can get away with giving the lessons with less danger. He gives LV > enough information about it to seem to be working for him. I still > think it leaves Snape in extra danger, especially if LV gets any > information from his own walks in Harry's mind. > Potioncat Snow: Maybe that's why Snape couldn't resume occlumency lessons with Harry now that the memory of what he saw in the pencieve is now in Harry's thoughts. The thoughts may have been put into the pencieve for protection from Voldemort not Harry. From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 16:04:51 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:04:51 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100662 > > Granted Snape's initial hostility to a child is petty and unworthy > but after five years Harry has given SS plenty of reason to dislike > him for himself, not his father. How? By saving the Philosopher's Stone when Dumbledore was tricked out of the castle? By defeating the Basilisk when every teacher, including Snape, was at a loss on how to do it? By keeping Snape from leading an innocent man to his execution? (Or by costing Snape the Order of Merlin?) By escaping Voldemort? By saving Arthur Weasley? Snape's hatred of Harry is petty and unworthy the entire time. Secondly Snape does *not* let his > feelings interfere with his duty to the Order or to Harry as a > teacher, (unsympathetic and bullying as he is he has risked his own > life to save Harry's at least twice, and the kid certainly has > learned his potions as we see at the OWLS ;) When? He didn't risk anything in SS/PS. He muttered a counter-curse until Hermione could distract Quirrell. Certainly no risk to Snape, because Quirrell wasn't gonig to attack him in full view of the world. Snape didn't save Harry from anything in PoA. Maybe he thought he was, but Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius and Snape was unconscious by the time Harry needed saving from Lupin Wolf and the Dementors. In fact, Snape's blundering, ego, and refusal to listen to reason very nearly cost Sirius his life, which would not have made Harry's life any better. Am I missing another time? Snape doesn't abandon > the occlumency lessons until Harry mortally offends him by flagrantly > violating his privacy. In fact a shaky sort of rapport seems to be in > the offing as both learn more of the other through seeing their > memories - until Harry blows everything out of the water by prying. > I agree, Harry was wrong to do that. It was a colossal screw-up. Of course, had Snape paused for a second, he'd have seen, and still could see, how horrified Harry was at what he saw. If Snape knew how much that shook Harry's view of James, he might be GLAD Harry did it. It did more damage to Harry-James than any ranting Snape has ever done. But Snape still abandoned his post at a crucial time and it contributed to the mess at the end of OoP. Dumbledore should be blamed for allowing it to happen. Harry should be blamed for not studying Occlumency better and of course, Kreacher and V-Mort bear the most blame for manipulating the situation in the first place. But Snape put his hatred above the cause. He knows, maybe as much as any Order member, what is at stake. He owes D-Dore big for that second chance. And he abandoned his post. And like I said, he is not 15. Darrin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 16:07:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:07:36 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100663 > > Snow wrote: > Maybe that's why Snape couldn't resume occlumency lessons with Harry > now that the memory of what he saw in the pencieve is now in Harry's > thoughts. The thoughts may have been put into the pencieve for > protection from Voldemort not Harry. Potioncat: Do you mean the one of 15 year old Snape or do you mean the memories Harry didn't see? (As Snape would not know whether they had been seen.) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 10 16:08:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:08:33 +0100 Subject: Long lived Message-ID: <6BDE845A-BAF8-11D8-B023-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100664 We've got used to Harry and Hedwig, Hermione and Crookshanks, Neville and Trevor, but unless she is actively brought to our attention Nagini tends to blend into the background. Snake, Slytherin, evil Mastermind; what else do you expect? The DD/Fawkes cooperative is a bit different. For a start Fawkes is an active participant when necessary in ways that Hedwig, Crookers and Trevor (presumably) aren't. The Voldy/Nagini axis is more or less an exact parallel to DD/Fawkes. Voldy uses Nagini as a gopher and she was used as a source of nourishment/vitamins while in retreat in Albania and before his rebirth. Nagini is his eyes and ears and can be possessed by Voldy when he wants a closer view of the action, when putting the bite on Arthur being a prime example. One possible plot hole that niggles: why didn't Voldy use Nagini as his 'carrier' during his enforced holiday abroad? He was desperate; he was reduced to inflicting himself on rats and other small creatures, yet Nagini was presumably there. After explaining that Wormtail was unsuitable for possession, he continues: "... a spell or two of my own invention...a little help from my dear Nagini" Voldemort's red eyes fell upon the continually circling snake - "a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided...I was soon returned to an almost human form, and strong enough to travel." (OoP chap 33.) There is the alternative explanation that Wormtail took Nagini with him when fleeing to Voldy, but since he was in rat form and didn't speak Parseltongue he likely wouldn't be Wormtail for long; he'd be lunch. And was the "little help" just the provision of snake venom or something extra? The phrasing is just ambiguous enough to make you wonder. And if Peter did take Nagini with him after the Shrieking Shack debacle, where did he collect her from and why would he think Voldy needed her? Nagini is no ordinary snake, possessed or not; it can tell the difference between Wizard and Muggle and is able to deduce that an old man outside a room is eavesdropping on a conversation. It can see through an Invisibility cloak (yes, I know Voldy was in there that time, but he still had to use Nagini's eyes with all the physical limitations thereto). Just how magical are magical pets? Do they have any limitations at all? How did Nagini get into the Ministry to attack Arthur? Presumably it can't apparate, use Floo powder or dial a number on a telephone, but it got there just the same. Fawkes has similar abilities, can transport itself elsewhere in a flash of fire and can even transport a single feather to where it wants it to be. (OoP chap 22). Why is a serpent the symbol of Slytherin? In mythology serpents were not generally considered to be symbols of evil (or ambition, come to that) - they were the symbol for wisdom, eternity and subtlety - seemingly admirable qualities for a wizard. But we generally accept the summing-up that Ron made of Salazar - " a raving old loony". And if he wasn't? What if he really was what Tom called him in the Chamber - "greatest of the Hogwarts four"? Up to now I've considered this to be hyperbole, Tom doing a bit of brown-nosing, flattering the inspiration of his philosophy. But why should he? It's not as if Slytherin himself were there, is it? It's intriguing that the 'pets' associated with the leaders of the warring factions, the serpent and the phoenix, are on one hand symbolic of wisdom and eternity and the other with resurrection and alchemy. And alchemists, as we all appreciate were obsessed by the search for the Philosophers Stone, one by-product of which is immortality. And DD is (was?) it's keeper. There seem to be a whole bunch of mythological pointers associated with extremely long timelines - immortality, eternity and serial resurrection, all connected to DD and Voldy. It gives one to wonder. Last year I posted an hypothesis that Harry and the Voldy wars were just the latest episodes in a much longer struggle (79546, 79455) and that DD and Voldy might, in various incarnations, be more or less permanent opponents. In which case having pets symbolising resurrection and eternity respectively would be apposite indeed. "Ah!" you say, "but we know about Tom, his birth and his antecedents. That doesn't fit. So there. Weasel out of that one." If Tom is Voldy, pure and simple, I can't. But I don't believe he is; Voldy is Tom plus something else IMO, something that was in the Chamber. Something that had been hanging around, tapping it's foot, waiting for somebody like Tom to turn up and be possessed and do it's bidding. Something that in form is very like the vapour of the Vapour!Mort formed after Godrics Hollow and Crumble!Quirrell. It wasn't a spell that created the vaprous entity - that was it's natural form; take away the body it's possessing and that's what's left. It'll hang around, weakened until it finds another victim. And it's damn near immortal; as DD says "Not being truly alive he cannot be killed" (PS chap 17) And unrepentantly evil to boot. DD is supposedly 150 years old, yet we hear nothing of his first 100 years; not until the Grindelwald dust-up 50 years before the events in HP does he hit the headlines. Well, OK, maybe. Feasible, I suppose. But the Stone, why does he have the Stone? Flamel is/was his friend and partner. Partner - now there's an interesting word. Partner in what? Making the Stone? Flamel was hundreds of years old before DD was supposedly born, he doesn't need a partner. Partners share any benefits the partnership brings, perhaps DD uses the Stone as opposed to just guarding it. He's looking old, tired - he needs a boost, a resurrection like Fawkes undergoes. At the end of PS/SS DD tells Harry that Flamel has enough elixir "to put his affairs in order". Five years later I'm still waiting for the Daily Prophet to announce the death of "the oldest wizard in the world". Haven't seen it yet but I suspect that it isn't Flamel's but DD's affairs that are taking a lot of putting in order. Five years and Voldy still hasn't been vanquished. Hope he's got plenty of elixir. Kneasy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 16:12:35 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:12:35 -0000 Subject: In the End, Voldemort Got What He Wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100665 It just struck me that Voldemort got exactly what he wanted at the end of OOTP. The text reads that LV failed in his attempt to get the Prophecy, failed to kill Harry once again, and left the MOM empty- handed and revealed to the WW, something he didn't want. But, no! I think he got *exactly* what he wanted. Suddenly, the Daily Prophet is reporting that LV infiltrated the MOM & the DE's are back as faithful servants; Fudge has spent a year denying LV's existence and wasting precious time; the Dementors left Azkaban and are in league with LV. And to top it all off, members of the Order spent the entire YEAR making false moves, baiting and fighting with each other, and generally tearing down what they built up in the First War. Now Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore, he's enraged at Snape and grief- stricken by the loss of Sirius--not exactly what you want from the *only* person with the Power to defeat LV. Once again, LV has proven that his singular gift for "spreading discord and enmity" is a very effective way to get what he wants. He has never been in a better position to crush the WW. And the Order, as the only group with a chance to stop him, has never been in a *worse* position. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 16:14:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:14:20 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100666 Darrin wrote: > But Snape still abandoned his post at a crucial time and it contributed to the > mess at the end of OoP. Dumbledore should be blamed for allowing it to > happen. Harry should be blamed for not studying Occlumency better and of > course, Kreacher and V-Mort bear the most blame for manipulating the > situation in the first place. > > But Snape put his hatred above the cause. He knows, maybe as much as any > Order member, what is at stake. He owes D-Dore big for that second chance. > > And he abandoned his post. > > And like I said, he is not 15. Potioncat: We do not know that he abandoned his post. We don't know who told DD or when he was told. I could say "I believe" Snape and DD discussed it soon afterwards and decided to stop. Or someone else could say, "I believe" DD only found out at the very end. But we don't know who would be correct. What the reader believes in this case affects how the reader sees the outcome or what the reader thinks about Snape. But no one really knows what happened. From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 16:20:46 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:20:46 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100667 > > > Potioncat: > We do not know that he abandoned his post. We don't know who told > DD or when he was told. I could say "I believe" Snape and DD > discussed it soon afterwards and decided to stop. Or someone else > could say, "I believe" DD only found out at the very end. But we > don't know who would be correct. What the reader believes in this > case affects how the reader sees the outcome or what the reader > thinks about Snape. But no one really knows what happened. We know more than that. We know that Dumbledore is disappointed in Snape's performance, to the point where he believes he made a mistake putting him in charge of the job. He says Snape couldn't get over the past. That means Snape didn't do the job. Whether he gave D-Dore the courtesy of a "resignation" by saying "I can't do it, Headmaster" or he just stopped, in spite of Lupin, Sirius and D-Dore's urgings really doesn't matter much, does it? D-Dore defends Snape to Harry's rants up to a point, but doesn't let Snape off the hook for the Occlumency and really doesn't answer Harry when Harry points out that the lessons made Harry weaker, not stronger. No one has yet answered what I find to be the key point. Snape is almost 40 . Harry is 15. Expecting equal behavior is not realistic. Darrin From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Jun 10 16:30:34 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:30:34 EDT Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <149.2b6a2c06.2df9e6aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100668 In a message dated 06/10/2004 10:02:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: DD didn't say it was a teenage grudge. He said he forgot how deep scars can go. I think there is a lot for us to speculate on, but all in all, there is a lot we just don't know. We don't know what really happened back at Hogwarts when Snape was a student and we don't know what happened when Snape and DD discussed the incident. --- Jo Ann: Questions: when Harry successfully repels Snape's Legilimency, he winds up breaking into Snape's thoughts. Would this breach of his defenses leave Snape vulnerable to anyone else who might be trying to get into his thoughts at the time--like Voldemort? (Is that not why Snape learned Occlumency from DD in the beginning?) If so, would the risk not grow greater as the lessons progressed (presuming that Harry would eventually have got the hang of Occlumency)? And, if Occlumency requires controlling one's emotions, then wouldn't his own unresolved issues with Harry make it more difficult for Snape to protect himself? Let's remember that Harry isn't the only one with a mark on him that connects him to the Dark Lord. All blame aside, DD may have allowed the lessons to end because they created a greater danger than the one they prevented. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 16:38:35 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:38:35 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <149.2b6a2c06.2df9e6aa@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100669 > > Jo Ann: > > Questions: when Harry successfully repels Snape's Legilimency, he winds up > breaking into Snape's thoughts. Would this breach of his defenses leave Snape > vulnerable to anyone else who might be trying to get into his thoughts at the > time--like Voldemort? (Is that not why Snape learned Occlumency from DD in the > beginning?) If so, would the risk not grow greater as the lessons progressed What would be the point of putting Snape in charge then? Presumably, D- Dore wanted the lessons to be successful, which means Harry would have had to, repeatedly, repel the Legimency. Perhaps the traditional defense to Legimency does not break into the Legimens mind -- in essence turning defense into offense -- and Snape was surprised. But if such breakthroughs ARE part and parcel of the defense, then Snape never should have been teaching Harry, if Harry learning the right way to do it would have risked Snape being found out. Darrin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 16:41:05 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:41:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius death In-Reply-To: <001f01c44ef3$3ed28520$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100670 Sherry: > > After reading all the exchanges concerning who's to blame for this or that, > over the last couple days, I thought I'd add something about Sirius death. > I don't think that anything would have changed the final outcome. Even if > Harry had truly understood the danger of possibly being tricked by > Voldemort, even if he'd understood all the ramifications and the complete > reasons why he would have to work on his occlumency, he would have still > acted the same way. Jen: Harry did have a basic understanding from Snape, and through his own dreams/visions/feelings, that Voldemort was infiltrating his mind. Maybe he didn't grasp the complexity of the situation, and that led to him believing his vision of Sirius was real. But, like you said, it wouldn't have mattered if Harry had a very complex understanding of the situation, once he had the vision he couldn't *not* act on it. I doubt even Dumbledore telling Harry the vision was a hoax, and he was *not to leave Hogwarts*, would have kept him there. Sherry: > Sirius would have gone after > Harry, his godson and the one he is guardian to. He loves Harry, and he > wouldn't have stayed behind if Harry was in danger. So, in some ways, > nobody really is to blame for Sirius death, except Voldemort. And maybe, > fate and their love for each other. Jen: Well said! This sums up what I think about the situation. Sometimes our internal patterns and struggles are SO strong, we can't resist acting, even when we know from experience there will be a price to pay. And truthfully, Harry didn't grasp there would be a price. Prior to watching Cedric die, which was totally out of Harry's control, he had succeeded in all his adventures with little- to-no negative repurcussions. Sherry: > I wish, every time I read OOTP, that somehow > the ending will magically change, and Sirius won't die, but I don't > seriously blame anyone for it. Given the circumstances, it was almost > inevitable. Jen: I feel the same way. I watched an interview with JKR last week on A&E Biography and she said this: "Death is tough on the living, but...you just *have* to get past it. We're all going to die and characters are going to die in these books. It just has to be." The look on her face when she said that--the intensity--told me she strongly believes in facing death square-on, and coming to terms with it. Feeling grief over Sirius' death, and bargaining with the outcome, shows me her gift as a writer. She has a great ability to write her feelings & beliefs into the charaters, without forcing her POV on anyone. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 16:43:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:43:55 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100671 > Darrin wrote: > We know more than that. We know that Dumbledore is disappointed in > Snape's performance, to the point where he believes he made a mistake > putting him in charge of the job. He says Snape couldn't get over the past. Potioncat: Well, perhaps we can talk about whether Snape did a good job or not, but that is not the same as abandoning his post. He taught Occlumency apparantly for twice a week for several months. Perhaps DD is upset that teaching Occlumency ended up causing Snape so much pain. Darrin: > > That means Snape didn't do the job. Whether he gave D-Dore the courtesy of > a "resignation" by saying "I can't do it, Headmaster" or he just stopped, in spite > of Lupin, Sirius and D-Dore's urgings really doesn't matter much, does it? Potioncat: But again we don't know what was said. Perhaps Snape was willing to continue but DD called it off. Perhaps he said, I'll go back to the Dark Lord before I teach that brat again. We just don't know. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 16:46:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:46:20 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100672 Darrin wrote: > > But if such breakthroughs ARE part and parcel of the defense, then Snape > never should have been teaching Harry, if Harry learning the right way to do it > would have risked Snape being found out. >x Potioncat: Yes! My point all along. (Well, one of my points.) Of course, the usual rules don't seem to apply to Potter. From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 16:47:22 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:47:22 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher was Re: Snape at school was Should Harry have told on DJU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Annemehr wrote previously: > > Perhaps the main difference between Harry and Kreacher is that Harry > > appears to have a much greater capacity to consider and decide between > > right and wrong > > Del replies : > But it doesn't seem to me that Harry considers things much. Annemehr: Going to chop this up and respond point by point (and, hi, Del!). Anyway, you're right -- he considers many things far too little. For instance, it seems that to Harry, Slytherin House *is* Draco Malfoy (with a cheating Quidditch team appended) -- never a thought at all that any of the others might be decent people. Learning Snape saved his life in Year One never seemed to have had an effect, either. So, yes, he does show a great propensity to jump to his conclusions and stick there! Del: > He reminds > me very much of Percy at times. As long as Percy was at Hogwarts, he > followed the local leader, DD. When he left, he naturally shifted his > loyalty to his new bosses. Annemehr: Wellll... what examples do we have? I can only think of the very minor one of CoMC classes. When Hagrid is absent and the very talented Professor Grubbly-Plank takes over, Harry's loyalty sticks very firmly with Hagrid. It's not a very good example, perhaps, but do you have anything on the other side? I don't think we've had any real opportunity to see Harry put to the test in this way at all. Del: > As long as Harry is at Hogwarts, he follows > DD, but that doesn't mean he's actually thought about it. It looks > more like an automatic decision to me, not a conscious one. And when > he *does* have to make a conscious decision, like trusting and obeying > Snape, he fails. So I'm not at all sure that Harry is on the side of > Good because he truly wants it. I don't feel he has truly chosen yet. > The only thing he's sure of, is that he hates LV, and that is not a > moral decision IMO. > > Del Annemehr: Okay, Harry's opposition to LV can't help but be personal. But I always thought there was more to it; that he actually had consciously chosen the good side because it's good. Let's see if I can't find some of the canon that made me think that... PS ch 16, Harry on why he has to go after the Stone: "[...]If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that tapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?" I clearly see both the personal motive and the choice of the good side here, as Harry seems to believe he could avoid dying by going over to the Dark Side. I won't accept an argument that Harry prefers death over evil merely because Hagrid says "great man, Dumbledore" either. ;) In PoA, I always felt that Harry learned something important about himself and revenge when he found he couldn't kill the supposed traitor Sirius. I think this at least moves his motivation for fighting LV away from simple vengeance toward wanting to stop the slaughter. Finally (for now, anyway), one of the most powerful passages in GoF (which my book should naturally fall open to by now from me quoting it) -- Harry lying in bed at night after seeing Dumbledore's pensieve memories, GoF ch. 31: "He often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more than he did. Lying in the darkness, Harry felt a rush of anger and hate toward the people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom. [...]Then he remembered the milk-white face of the screaming boy and realized with a jolt that he had died a year later.... It was Voldemort, Harry thought, staring up at the canopy of his bed in the darkness, it all came back to Voldemort....He was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives...." Harry's own difficult life gives him a great capacity for empathy for the *other* people whom Voldemort has damaged and killed. It's not just himself that Harry cares about. Just my opinion, then, but I am quite sure that Harry *has* made a deliberate choice for the good side. Obviously he does still have a lot to learn about making judgments, controlling himself, and being straight with Order members. He also needs, IMO, to be told about some things in a more straightforward manner. Fortunately, I'm expecting some of this in the next book! You mentioned Harry not trusting Snape. I agree he should have done better in the Occlumency lessons. On the other hand, he did show a little trust in Umbridge's office in OoP ch. 32: "[Snape's] cold, dark eyes were boring into Harry's, who met his gaze unflinchingly, concentrating hard on what he had seen in his dream, willing Snape to read it in his mind, to understand ..." Hey, it was a start! Too bad neither he nor any of the others seemed to realise that Snape *must* have got the message and could be trusted to do something about it... Annemehr From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 10 16:48:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:48:10 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100674 > > Pippin: >From their own perspective, the characters can only know whether they are fighting for the right as they see it. << > Annemehr: > Well, yes, that's pretty much all anyone can do. I'm not forgetting that Molly and Sirius argued furiously about how much to tell Harry, and they both believed they knew what was best for him. And Fighting For Good doesn't have to mean anything grand and great; just trying to live a decent life and fulfill your obligations responsibly will do. It has nothing to do with arrogance.< Pippin: Hmmm...what I think would be arrogant would be deciding that your motives for risking your life to oppose Voldemort are more noble than someone else's. We can make that decision as readers, with our godlike view of events. But I don't think the characters are in that position. Even Dumbledore is not. > Annemehr: > Are you saying the Malfoys sat down and considered which was the right way to go, and acted according to their best idea of "good?" Because I was always sure their pureblood ideology was simply a reactionary one, which they rationalise after the fact.< Pippin: I doubt the Malfoys are sincere about anything. But the Blacks may well have been. The point I was trying to make is that racial equality is a debatable issue in the wizarding world, not a settled question. In the WW even idealistic thoughtful people who strive to be enlightened assume that wizards are superior and the other races ought to look up to them. That was the lie of the fountain. Some of the pureblood wizards have the same idea about themselves. But I was trying to make a point about the Blacks. It's true they're allies of the Malfoys. But the Malfoys didn't *publicly* support Voldemort either. Lucius claimed to have been under the Imperius curse. I suppose that Mrs. Black believed that, or she'd have burnt Lucius off the tapestry for being party to the murder of Regulus. What I'm saying is, regardless of her ideology, Mrs. Black was an enemy of Voldemort and that *could* have formed common ground between Kreacher and Sirius. But Sirius couldn't get past the fact that Kreacher was devoted to the memory of Mrs. Black, any more than Snape can get past the fact that Harry is devoted to the memory of James. It was argued that Sirius had no obligation to show kindness toward Kreacher because Kreacher's loyalty was doubtful. But Sirius owed something to Kreacher as his master. As Tolkien put it, the servant has a claim on the master for service, even service in fear. Kreacher, however, owed Sirius no loyalty except that forced on him by the House Elf enchantments. He did owe loyalty to Mrs. Black, based on affection alone, since she was dead. And Sirius trampled on it. Imagine how Harry would feel if he had to watch Snape destroying photographs of his family. You think Harry wouldn't want to get even for that? At least if Snape did it, I think he would know how much he was hurting Harry. But it didn't even occur to Sirius that Kreacher might have feelings that were hurt. Pippin From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 17:10:04 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:10:04 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Snow wrote: > > Maybe that's why Snape couldn't resume occlumency lessons with > Harry > > now that the memory of what he saw in the pencieve is now in > Harry's > > thoughts. The thoughts may have been put into the pencieve for > > protection from Voldemort not Harry. > > Potioncat: > Do you mean the one of 15 year old Snape or do you mean the memories > Harry didn't see? (As Snape would not know whether they had been > seen.) Snow again: I meant the ones in the pencieve. I liked the idea that Voldemort knew about the lessons that Snape was giving Harry. Snape would have perhaps wanted to protect some of his own memories from Voldemort and placed them in the pencieve before each lesson. Now that Harry had seen those particular memories it would no longer be safe to continue giving Harry lessons with the possibility of Voldemort seeing what Harry had saw. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 10 17:17:46 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:17:46 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > We know more than that. We know that Dumbledore is disappointed in Snape's performance, to the point where he believes he made a mistake putting him in charge of the job. He says Snape couldn't get over the past.< Pippin: Couldn't. Not didn't want to. Not failed because he *chose* to act like a spoiled brat instead of a grown-up. Snape is a damaged adult, too wounded to function effectively. And so is Dumbledore. Dumbledore blames himself for "an old man's mistake" -- as if growing old were something he could help! Unfortunately the only two people who were available to teach Harry Occlumency were these two damaged individuals--Snape, damaged by his memories of abuse, and Dumbledore, damaged by old age. But if no one had tried to teach Harry Occlumency, he still would have gone after Sirius, so I don't see that either Dumbledore or Snape should be faulted for trying. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 17:20:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:20:19 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100677 > > Snow again: > I meant the ones in the pencieve. I liked the idea that Voldemort > knew about the lessons that Snape was giving Harry. Snape would have > perhaps wanted to protect some of his own memories from Voldemort and > placed them in the pencieve before each lesson. Now that Harry had > seen those particular memories it would no longer be safe to continue > giving Harry lessons with the possibility of Voldemort seeing what > Harry had saw. Potioncat: I think we're in agreement here, but I'm feeling a little dense. We know (but Snape doesn't) that Harry only saw the memory of the OWLS afternoon. I think Snape put at least 2 other memories in, but none of us saw what they were. Are those the ones you mean? Because I agree, they might have been dangerous for LV to find out. Of course, they could just be from the rather compromising episode during the staff Christmas party.... Potioncat who needs some humor this afternoon. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 17:24:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:24:57 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100678 Pippin wrote: > > But if no one had tried to teach Harry Occlumency, he still would > have gone after Sirius, so I don't see that either Dumbledore or > Snape should be faulted for trying. > Potioncat: And who could have guessed that Harry could actually get to the MoM? Could anyone have imagined he would mount a flock of Threstrals? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 17:28:12 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:28:12 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: little flub Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100679 Haven't seen anyone point this out, and it's very nit-picky, but oh well. In the books, Moony is spelled just like that. In the PoA movie, the Marauder's Map said "Messrs Mooney..." with an "e". Susan From melaniertay at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:35:52 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:35:52 -0000 Subject: Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100680 Since someone brought up the North Tower Editorials today, I thought I'd recommend another. The Changeling Theory is very interesting too. However, here's the thing. Most people here argue that Harry's failure to learn occlumency was a contributing factor to Sirius' death. However, it was often said that Harry believed it was making it worse. If there is a little bit of Voldemort in Harry (as stated in cannon) then the intrusion is "internal" not external. In which case occlumency would not work and possibly make him worse. (clue from cannon would be that Voldemort cannot block Harry and he is an expert legilemens/occlumens) Of course, Snape and DD probably didn't know that. I don't think their overall intentions were bad. Still, if occlumency is an impossibility between Harry and Voldemort, is Harry still to blame? From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 15:43:41 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040609174432.82715.qmail@web50907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040610154341.58845.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100681 Yoda wrote: > What is > the Holy Grail in the Potterverse? Am I going a > little too far with this allagory? I think Yoda have given us our biggest clue to how the story will end: Harry will use the Holy Hand Granade of Antioch to kill Voldy, who has turned in to a giant, evil, killer rabbit. ;) Sorry for the silliness, but I can't get that image out of my head. My question with this though, is why only have half to family based on this myth? You still have Bill (William), Charlie (Charles), Fred and George (Gred and Feorge) and Molly. Where would the rest of the family fit in? Granted, it looks like there are a lot of kingly or royal names within the rest of the family, but that would leave Fred and Molly as names who don't fit. bamf!, who hasn't studied Aurtherian legends since high school and is rusty on that too... ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 10 17:56:20 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:56:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys References: <20040610154341.58845.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c44f14$3cd32fb0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 100682 bamf! > My question with this though, is why only have half to > family based on this myth? You still have Bill > (William), Charlie (Charles), Fred and George (Gred > and Feorge) and Molly. Where would the rest of the > family fit in? Granted, it looks like there are a lot > of kingly or royal names within the rest of the > family, but that would leave Fred and Molly as names > who don't fit. > K Well Frederick is quite a royal name actually - especially amongst the Hanoverians, as far as I remember. It may not have been the first name of any actual Kings but it was used quite a bit. What is Molly short for by the way? And on that note isn't it associated with the Queen of Beggars? K From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 18:01:06 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:01:06 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Snow again: > > I meant the ones in the pencieve. I liked the idea that Voldemort > > knew about the lessons that Snape was giving Harry. Snape would > have > > perhaps wanted to protect some of his own memories from Voldemort > and > > placed them in the pencieve before each lesson. Now that Harry had > > seen those particular memories it would no longer be safe to > continue > > giving Harry lessons with the possibility of Voldemort seeing what > > Harry had saw. > > Potioncat: > I think we're in agreement here, but I'm feeling a little dense. We > know (but Snape doesn't) that Harry only saw the memory of the OWLS > afternoon. I think Snape put at least 2 other memories in, but none > of us saw what they were. Are those the ones you mean? Because I > agree, they might have been dangerous for LV to find out. > > Of course, they could just be from the rather compromising episode > during the staff Christmas party.... > > Potioncat who needs some humor this afternoon. Snow: I think Snape may have been in more danger of Voldemort than Harry with those lessons. DD knowing of the danger this may present to Snape, allowed him the use of the pencieve to extract memories, which may compromise Snape's motives to Voldemort. Then if something like the shield charm was used by Harry so that Harry could see into Snapes memories (which he did once) Voldemort would not be able to see anything that had been extracted previously by Snape for protection in the pencieve. But now that Harry was successful in obtaining those thoughts, or at least part of the memories stored there, Snape would no longer be able to give lessons for fear of Voldemort's presence if Harry recalled those memories in future lessons. As a side note, Snape has commented throughout that Harry doesn't care the risk that others have/are taking to ensure his protection. Of course on Harry's behalf he is not told of the specifics of those protectors and has not known a lot of them, like Mrs. Figg until after the fact. If Harry had been told to what extent occlumency lessons may affect Snape if found out about especially by Voldemort, Harry would have probably been a bit more sympathetic and less disobedient. Just a thought! From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 17:24:23 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Question about name-calling Message-ID: <20040610172423.10987.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100684 In the books, we know that a Pureblood is someone who has a long, lengthy ancestry of wizarding blood. A Mudblood is a person who has Pure Muggles (with no wizarding ability) for relatives. What exactly is a half-blood? We have Seamus in the first book say that he is 'half and half' - that his Mum was a witch and didn't tell her husband (Pure Muggle) until after they were married. We know Tom Riddle had a similiar situation where one parent was Pure Muggle. What exactly is Harry then? Yes, his Mum was Muggle born, but she was a witch. Does that still make him a Half-blood, as Bellatrix calls him in OOtP: "Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's tongue, you dare-" "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly. "Hermoine gave a little moan in his ear. "Voldemort? Yea, his mother was a witch but his dad was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's pureblood?" (quoted from US Version - OOtP, pg 784) Comments and thoughts? ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 10 18:13:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:13:36 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040610154341.58845.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100685 Bamf! wrote: > > My question with this though, is why only have half to > family based on this myth? You still have Bill > (William), Charlie (Charles), Fred and George (Gred > and Feorge) and Molly. Where would the rest of the > family fit in? Granted, it looks like there are a lot > of kingly or royal names within the rest of the > family, but that would leave Fred and Molly as names > who don't fit. Potioncat: It depends on whether we're asking why did JKR name some of this family for Arthur legends or why did Arthur and Molly name them? It looks like Wizarding families choose a theme for all the children's names. And in some cases, a group of siblings will name their children along a theme. Or perhaps it's JKR doing that. The Weasley children all have royal names and quite a few come from Camelot. (I'm not sure about Ron, though.) The Blacks are named for stars or for characters from Greek/Roman myths, depending on how you look at it. Now, could Cornealius, Lucius, Albus and Severus be from the same family using Latin names? Oops, sort of lost the Camelot point here. But it is hard to tell who the Camelot connection might refer to or how far it will be taken. By the same token, it will make it easier for the shippers if Harry refers to Henry VIII, he can end up with 6 girls of your choice, everyone is happy...well, almost everyone. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 10 18:32:13 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:32:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WW Technology V Muggle Technology References: <1086876083.10928.59638.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c44f19$3fdc5ec0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 100686 Stephen Flynn wrote: >This is my first post so please bear with me. I was looking through >some back postings and I saw one on the above topic and I do believe >that WW technology is better than Muggle technology. Simply put why >fix something that is not broken. There is less risk to an >individual and to the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on >this? I also saw the original post and was a little surprised that no one else bit! My first comment is that the WW wouldn't understand the word "technology" here: it's not so much a matter of two different technologies, but of fundamentally different approaches to the same need. In the WW, wizards use charms, potions, spells, and so on to carry out the relevant processes of production for which Muggles use technology. For a wizard to be interested in technology (as Arthur Weasley so obviously is), would I think make him regarded by his colleagues as being somewhat eccentric (perhaps in the same way as Muggle colleagues would regard a workmate who was obviously interested in witchcraft in our own world...) I also don't think that the WW "sits more lightly on the Earth" or anything like that. Approaching production from a wizarding POV would mean different approaches, but neither would necessarily be "ecological" in a way that's meaningful for us. If I'm an eel farmer in the WW, I'd probably use a charm rather than a fence to stop them swimming off to the Sargasso Sea at spawning time, and I'd probably use a potion rather than something from a laboratory to keep them healthy, but they'd still be caged and bred rather than swimming free in the wild. But having said all that, there do seem to be advantages in using magic rather than technology. First of all, using charms and spells seems to remove a great deal of the drudgery and hard labour that Muggles have to use. I would think that a WW miner would use charms to open the rock strata down to the ore, to extract the ore and bring it to the surface, to smelt it, and to return the spoil to the tunnel when the mine was worked out: no need for heavy labour, much reduced risk of dying in a rockfall, no risk of lung diseases, nystagmus, or any of the other mining diseases, and so on. Also, the inhabitants of the WW do seem to be in occupations that aren't exploitative or useless. There doesn't seem to be any WW equivalent of MacDonalds, call centres, nuclear power stations, or any of the other atrocities of our own world. On the whole, I think I'd rather be a worker there than here! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Thu Jun 10 18:07:42 2004 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:07:42 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100687 Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no idea what that might be. Ideas? Kathi kathleenjohnson at juno.com From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 16:47:01 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:47:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's Liability/Snape's Loyalty (-long-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100688 > > So, there would be two ways to tackle this: 1) Do everything I > could to keep > > this horrorhead out of my mind; 2) Get really flustered and not be > able to > > handle Professor Horrorhead. > > Right. The kid who can handle Voldemort, Dementors and imminent > threat of death can't handle being in the presence of a disliked > teacher. I don't think so. In fact Harry not only successfully > blocked 'Professor Horrorhead' on at least one occasion, but got > through SS's own defensives more than once. Obviously he could > function in SS's presence. I think at this point, we can't put too much emphasis on Harry's mental stability. Without rehashing everything that's gone on in the kid's life to leave him especially ignorant when it comes to the workings of his own mind, he's essentially through the books kept his private workings very private. Someone quite literally entering what he has guarded is quite different than rushing into a dire situation with adrenaline rushing and a wand (or sword, for that matter) in hand. The thing that stood out at me, especially at when Dumbledore is telling Harry that he underestimated Snape's grudge, is just how much Snape is willing to risk on his hatred for James. When we've heard how important Occlumency is from Dumbledore , Lupin, and Sirius and Snape kicks Harry out of lessons, it just struck me as a sign of what he feels is most important. The consequenses of LV breaching into Harry's mind are huge in scope, as is shown by Sirius' death and the potential deaths of the Order members who came to the DoM. However, Snape decides that his grudge is more important. This seems to be a tic on a list of hints against Snape's certain loyalty. When else does Snape lose control? We see him get "maniacal" in the Shrieking Shack in PoA...why is this? We get the quote directly from his mouth: "Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." (PoA 19) Vengeance? Vengeance for what? One can only guess that this is in regards to Sirius treatment of him in school (most notably "the Prank") and it seems, in the same chapter, Lupin may have struck a note with "You fool...[i]s a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" which merits no answer but cords from Snape's wand. We rarely see Snape lose control like this. He's snarky, yes, but maniacal? When faced with the memories of his school days, he seems to lose all reason, willing to risk the lives of two innocent men for his "schoolboy grudge" What else will he/did he put on the line for his grudge? I for one am having serious doubts as to what he actually knew when he was spying during the first war. If the DEs in Azkaban knew about Peter's duplicity, why are we so quick to debunk the idea that Snape may have known as well, but in his inability to seperate himself from his hatred just let that bit of information slide? Snape, a proported excellent Occlumens wouldn't have survived in the ranks of DE if he was a suspected spy, especially with LV's known Legilimancy, so his Occlumency must have protected him against being discovered. If one wants to take it a step further, Snape says that Legilimancy requires eye contact in most cases. (and seems to regard Harry as quite the exception) Could he know this from personal experience? If he has experienced eye contact with LV, what was exactly his double-agent role in the DEs (how close to the inner circle was he?), and why, then, wouldn't have have known about Peter? My trust in Snape is a bit rocky. I want to believe that he's loyal because Dumbledore does and have it as cut and dry as that...but then again, Dumbledore trusted Quirrel who had LV growing out of the back of his head, Lockheart who ended up to be the worlds biggest fraud, and fake!Moody who, well, was fake. We learn in the GoF Pensieve that DD exposed to the MoM and at least one X-DE that Snape was spying for him. (My theory on why Snape is the Potions teacher [since he's such a godawful one] is that since we know that he's been in the post for 14 years at the time of OotP, that would leave his first year the year of LV's fall -- Is Dumbledore repaying him for his services by protecting him in the walls of Hogwarts?) Since Lucius rubs shoulders with the MoM, it does not seem improbable that he would know of Snape's double-agent status. Lucius is at the rebirth of Voldemort, he's in the DoM, heck, he's in Azkaban now -- essentially, we *know* he's a DE...yet Snape seems to be on good terms with him. In fact we even hear of this through Umbridge right before the kids go to the DoM. Unless the only DE who knows that Snape was Dumbledore's spy is Karkaroff, ex-DEs such as Lucius seem to be just the people Dumbledore would be protecting Snape from. Note: Snape's been at Hogwarts for 14 years...the DE breakout only happens in OotP. Then there's the whole question of his "the Dark Lord" business and his being unable to answer Harry's questioning of this because of Trelawny's interruption...('Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,' Snape muttered. 'While he may feel secure enough to use the name the rest of us ' He rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin. [OotP 24] ...who's "the rest of us," exactly?) and the question of the Wolfsbane potion in PoA and how we see no evidence of it being Lupin's responsibility to pick up the potion, only Snape to bring it to him, and yet although the potion is good if taken a week before the full moon, it seems that Snape left the job of bringing Lupin his potion until the last moments possible... Sorry this has gone on for ages, but I had to delurk for this -- too many things just don't fit. Stefanie Who is inserting the magic words: I'd like to believe otherwise From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:23:07 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:23:07 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100689 "The 'Weasley is our King' song may have also been a possible clue to Arthur Weasley's assention to Minister of Magic as well. Arthur > basically becomes "King" of the Wizarding World. Maybe or most > likely with the help of Dumbledore (Merlin figure) ... However, the parallels with HP get dodgy in that there can be > parallels to other resources beyond the Arthurian Legends. Jane > Austen, Shakespeare, "The Chronicles of Narnia" and various Celtic or > Greek myths to name just a few examples. Who can we honestly say > Harry is based on? Voldemort? Ron? Hermione?" I think that's a pretty shrewd guess that may well turn out to be right. I do think the Weasleys will come out on top in some fashion. I don't think Rowling is following any exact blueprint or basing her stories exactly on Camelot or any other legend, but there are enough elements of all of them in the Weasleys to make them look awfully special in some way: -- The names: Arthur Weasley/King Arthur; Ginny/Ginevra/Queen Guinevere; Percy/Sir Percival. -- References to royalty: Harry dreams of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns; the Slytherins and then the Gryffindors sing "Weasley is our King"; Bill, the oldest son, is dating Fleur, whose full name translates to "flower of the court"; Ron plays the part of a knight in the human game of Wizard's Chess in the very first story; even the Weasleys swearing by "Merlin's beard." I don't think you can look at any one of those things and see an exact parallel to any particular story or legend. Maybe Rowling did everything just because it sounded cool and she really doesn't intend to go further with the Camelot similarities. If I were to make predictions, I'd say she did pick them for a reason and is maybe toying with the idea of making Arthur Minister of Magic; maybe the Weasley sons and daughter will become honored for their courage and feats of daring as knights in Dumbledore's Army; maybe Percy, who was sorted into Gryffindor like the rest of his brave, loyal, red-headed siblings, will redeem himself and die heroically; maybe Ginny will begin dating Harry and Ron will date Hermione and both will be important in some sense as lead couples of the wizarding world. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 19:24:04 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:24:04 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: <6BDE845A-BAF8-11D8-B023-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100690 snipping of arrowsmithbit's interesting post: > "Ah!" you say, "but we know about Tom, his birth and his antecedents. > That doesn't fit. So there. Weasel out of that one." > > If Tom is Voldy, pure and simple, I can't. But I don't believe he is; > Voldy is Tom plus something else IMO, something that was in the > Chamber. Something that had been hanging around, tapping it's foot, > waiting for somebody like Tom to turn up and be possessed and do it's > bidding. Something that in form is very like the vapour of the > Vapour!Mort formed after Godrics Hollow and Crumble!Quirrell. It wasn't > a spell that created the vaprous entity - that was it's natural form; > take away the body it's possessing and that's what's left. It'll hang > around, weakened until it finds another victim. And it's damn near > immortal; as DD says "Not being truly alive he cannot be killed" (PS > chap 17) And unrepentantly evil to boot. Meri now, intrigued: So, let me get this straight. Your theory is that Vapo!Mort has existed for quite some time, perhaps even as long as the Chamber of Secrets itself, and it lay there peacefully waiting for some young innocent like Riddle to stumble upon it? Fascinating. I think that this would sort of reinforce the choice theme of the books, wouldn't it. Had Tom Riddle simply been born evil then he wouldn't really have had much choice in becoming who he became, but if, like Quirrell he *invited* an evil being into his body and succumbed to his more negative qualities (ie: Anakin Skywalker going to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader) then it would truly have been his choice to become evil. My imagination is piqued. (Though admittedly this doesn't explain why Tom Riddle's father needed to be used for the resurection. Why not a different wizard?) I am also wondering what implications this could have for the prophecy. Maybe this means that Harry while the only one who can defeat theoretical Vapo!Mort he is also the only body that can truly support Vapo!Mort. So maybe Harry is the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, and maybe if Vapo!Mort were to posess Harry then Harry would die and LV would live. But unless he can posses Harry, Vapo!Mort isn't really alive? Did anything I just say make any sense? Anyway, good on ya, Kneasy. Nice theorizing. Meri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 19:28:50 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:28:50 -0000 Subject: A Question about name-calling In-Reply-To: <20040610172423.10987.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > In the books, we know that a Pureblood is someone who > has a long, lengthy ancestry of wizarding blood. > > A Mudblood is a person who has Pure Muggles (with no > wizarding ability) for relatives. > > What exactly is a half-blood? We have Seamus in the > first book say that he is 'half and half' - that his > Mum was a witch and didn't tell her husband (Pure > Muggle) until after they were married. We know Tom > Riddle had a similiar situation where one parent was > Pure Muggle. > > What exactly is Harry then? Yes, his Mum was Muggle > born, but she was a witch. Does that still make him a > Half-blood, as Bellatrix calls him in OOtP: > > "Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked. "You dare speak > his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it > with your half-blood's tongue, you dare-" > > "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry > recklessly. "Hermoine gave a little moan in his ear. > "Voldemort? Yea, his mother was a witch but his dad > was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's > pureblood?" > (quoted from US Version - OOtP, pg 784) > > Comments and thoughts? > > ta! > bamf! There are two main interpretations for what Harry is. Someone like Bellatrix (or any of the other more blood-centric of the WW) would probably consider Harry a half-blood, and maybe even the more extreme would call him a mudblood. But technically, because both his mum and dad were magical, he is pure-blooded. Unlike Seamus, who would always be refrered to as a half-blood. Hope this helps. Meri - who thinks we should have an on-list euphamism for "mudblood". "Differently parented" perhaps? From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 19:38:15 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:38:15 -0000 Subject: A Question about name-calling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100692 > Meri - who thinks we should have an on-list euphamism > for "mudblood". "Differently parented" perhaps? No euphemism needed -- they're called "Muggle-born." Annemehr who did appreciate the joke, too From rzl46 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 19:46:52 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:46:52 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100693 Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no > idea what that might be. > > Ideas? > The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was Colin Creevy. JKR has spent a great deal of page time developing what is still a minor character. He served a purpose int he plot of CoS, true, but he's still around in later books, now with a brother, and getting developed more and more (though slowly, I admit). I'm expecting the Creevy brothers to play a larger role in future books, thought I'm not sure I can imagine them playing a *huge* role. Anybody else with me? Maggie B From timjones002000 at yahoo.ie Thu Jun 10 15:09:16 2004 From: timjones002000 at yahoo.ie (timjones002000) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Subject: WW Technology V Muggle Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100694 stephenflynn001 wrote: > I was looking through some back postings and I saw one on > the above topic and I do believe that WW technology is better > than Muggle technology. Simply put why fix something that > is not broken. There is less risk to an individual and to > the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on this? I would disagree with this. Surely, the advances that have been made by muggles have outsripped anything that the ww has to offer. Based on the books ww technology has not advanced in many a year while muggle technology has come on in leaps and bounds especially in the past 100 years. Space exploration is a prime example. Tim From anitafreedman at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:43:34 2004 From: anitafreedman at yahoo.com (anitafreedman) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:43:34 -0000 Subject: WW Technology V Muggle Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100695 stephenflynn001 wrote: > I was looking through some back postings and I saw one on > the above topic and I do believe that WW technology is better > than Muggle technology. Simply put why fix something that > is not broken. There is less risk to an individual and to > the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on this? I would have to agree with what you have said and here are some examples of why this is the case. Two of the main ways of transporting yourself from one place to another are by using the Floo Network and apparation compare this to the main forms or muggle transportation and I do not see any contest. While muggle technology may seem more technically proficient ww technology is indeed safer and greener. Even a broomstick is safer granted learning how to use one seems to be a bit tricky. Anita From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 10 20:25:54 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:25:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100696 Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no > idea what that might be. > > Ideas? > The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was Colin Creevy. JKR has spent a great deal of page time developing what is still a minor character. He served a purpose int he plot of CoS, true, but he's still around in later books, now with a brother, and getting developed more and more (though slowly, I admit). I'm expecting the Creevy brothers to play a larger role in future books, thought I'm not sure I can imagine them playing a *huge* role. Anybody else with me? Maggie B Yeah, I agree with you that it is weird to have him and then add a brother. Maybe one of them will die fighting LV or trying to save someone. I have always thought the "little" thing was the Alley though. I think those people are vampires and my mother swears they are people that have been "kissed" by dementors. Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jun 10 20:30:42 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:30:42 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100697 > > Jo Ann: > > > > Questions: when Harry successfully repels Snape's Legilimency, he winds > up > > breaking into Snape's thoughts. Would this breach of his defenses leave > Snape > > vulnerable to anyone else who might be trying to get into his thoughts at the > > time--like Voldemort? (Is that not why Snape learned Occlumency from DD > in the > > beginning?) If so, would the risk not grow greater as the lessons > progressed Darrin: > But if such breakthroughs ARE part and parcel of the defense, then Snape > never should have been teaching Harry, if Harry learning the right way to do it > would have risked Snape being found out. Ally: I think this a big question and, to me, raises some real questions about the REAL reason DD wanted Snape to give these lessons. He said it was too much of a risk to Harry and the Order for him to give the lessons himself - that Voldie might realize and try to use Harry as a weapon. Well, doesn't the same risk apply with Snape? Why on earth wouldn't it? If anything, its hinted that the Dark Mark gives Voldie some deeper connection to those who bear it, so Snape teaching the lessons would be doubly risky, no? To me, that means: b) DD is lying about why he didn't give the lessons, something I always considered a possibility. The risk of teaching would be there if any member of the Order was teaching Harry. Maybe DD thought this would be a way to help Snape and Harry come to some kind of agreement or meeting of the minds? Given the importance he places on everyone trusting each other and since Harry and Snape are the two clearest examples of Order members who don't - and fairly important members, at that - it seems likely that he might have tried to push them together and hoped that by seeing into each other's minds that they might come to a better understanding of one another . . . which seemed to be happening a bit before that whole pensieve fiasco. OR c) It's an inconsistency JKR didn't catch or think about. I personally believe that this is a fairly obvious inconsistency, so I doubt this, as well. But I do believe that no matter how thorough JKR is, that there are some inconsistencies she won't have caught by the time its all said and done - when there are hundreds of thousands of obsessed people scouring every word you write for hidden meanings, they're bound to find some things you may have missed. Any other possibilities I've missed? From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 10 20:32:09 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:32:09 -0400 Subject: a thought about Grimmauld Place Message-ID: <001601c44f2a$01d3b950$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100698 I remember the discussions on this list about Grimmauld Place and the House of Black and Mrs. Black's portrait's words "begone from the house of my fathers." The general assumption was that she was a Black cousin and so the house was her ancestral home as well as her husband's. I'm rereading OOP right now and I thought, why did we assume the house belonged to Sirius' father? Simply because of the tapestry? But tapestries can be moved, rehung, I bet there's one in every Black household. I'd say Sirius' dad was younger than the Black Sisters' dad/mom (whoever was their Black parent) and thus it's probably their parents that lived in the ancestral Black home while Sirius' parents lived in his mother's ancestral home. With the Lestranges in Azkaban and Andromeda disowned, I'd say the ancestral Black manor is in possession of the Malfoys. Alina. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jun 10 08:35:21 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:35:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Justified Not to Trust (was Harry as Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100699 Arya writes: > Harry is justified, IMO. In fact, since everyone and anyone knows > Harry's life story (especially the teachers) they are guilty of > even more for not trying to understand how Harry is a bit different > than a normal, more trusting teen. > --- > > Jo Ann: > Here, JKR is using an old game master's trick known in the > roleplaying circles I frequent as "Lie, lie, tell the truth." > Create a pattern of deceptive situations, condition the character to > no longer accept anything at face value, and then break that pattern > when they least expect it. > > In this case, the pattern JKR created for Harry was "Following the > rules may result in horrible things happening." Just as he was > firmly convinced that this was always going to be the case, and that > he could therefore safely ignore the rules--perhaps was even obligated > to do so--she (or life, or Voldemort, from his POV) pulled the rug out > from under him by presenting a situation where it was absolutely vital > that he do as he was told. Paul : The truth is that HP is acting or should I say reacting almost in an expected way. What we have until now. A chess game between many players, visible and invisible, and HP as the main pawn that almost anyone can use with the proper manipulation. Almost everyone has his own agenda included AD and in every agenda HP is just an object, an asset. Almost every person HP truly had trusted, betrayed him with one way or another. Would you blame him if HP didn't trust anyone. And here we have a contradiction from JKR that justifies what I state in the beginning as almost expected way. HP still trusts people. If I were HP with his history I would trust NOONE. From rzl46 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 20:39:49 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:39:49 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > > Kathi wrote: > > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > > will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no > > idea what that might be. > > > > Ideas? > > > > > The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was Colin > Creevy. JKR has spent a great deal of page time developing what is > still a minor character. He served a purpose int he plot of CoS, > true, but he's still around in later books, now with a brother, and > getting developed more and more (though slowly, I admit). I'm > expecting the Creevy brothers to play a larger role in future books, > thought I'm not sure I can imagine them playing a *huge* role. > > Anybody else with me? > > Maggie B > > > Yeah, I agree with you that it is weird to have him and then add a > brother. Maybe one of them will die fighting LV or trying to save > someone. I have always thought the "little" thing was the Alley though. I > think those people are vampires and my mother swears they are people > that have been "kissed" by dementors. > > Gina > > I can easily imagine that Knockturn Alley would be more important and I will love playing around with the idea of those people having been on the receiving end of a kiss. But you made me think, what if this big clue is something Harry saw while in that shop? Maybe that hand thing--I don't have my book with me. It was featured prominantly in the movie. I don't think JKR would let anything vital to a futre plot be cut from one of the movies, so I think it is fairly safe to say that whatever the clue would also be in the movie. From squeakinby at tds.net Thu Jun 10 20:44:23 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:44:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8C827.90109@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100701 rzl46 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > wrote: > >> >>Kathi wrote: >> >>>Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book > > 2 > >>>will be "huge" in the next two books. Hard to overlook Little Whinging. Jem From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jun 10 09:30:29 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:30:29 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: <003c01c44e75$d40bcda0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100702 Anne "Silverthorne" wrote: > What bothers me about these Harry-Snape-Sirius debates is that everyone is so quick to condemn the character they don't like and defend the one they do...and yeah, we all do that, but some of the sheer *venom* that gets thrown at the other character taht is painted as 'the Bad Guy' bugs me. 'Well, they deserve what's coming to them!' is a common attitiude, and I always think when I read that 'Oh, really...? Have you stopped to consider that that's exactly what people like Voldemort think right before they kill someone for being...'different'. > Please please please try and consider the 'other side' before you jump on the 'Well this one is right, and that one is just plain wrong', especially since we *don't* know the whole story....and we also all have different views on how things "should" be. > > In short, repsect all the characters, and not just your favorites, before you start firing off (Try and repsect each other as well--we may not agree on a lot of things, but taking chunks out of someone else's hide because their commetns offended you isn't the way to go either). >> Paul: Anne you have a very strong case. Don't judge before you listen every side. It is a right arguement. But we all have flaws. We are not perfect. That is the reason we are subjective and not objective in our judgements. Now if we follow your train of thoughts we can justify even Voldermort for his activities. Remember Tom Riddle had a painful childhood. He was an outcast, a freak for his father who abandoned him. His mother if I remember correctly died too soon and he went to orphanage. He grew old full of rage and hatred for his father and life in general. He seduced by the dark side because he was susceptible to temptation. In other words we was made evil. For some people he is a deamon figure due to his crimes. For some others he is a tragic figure and a victim of life. Nobody knows the real truth. And that is a fact. I heard once the following adage. Truth is a sword with three blades. Mine truth, yours truth and truth itself. Which means that we must respect the other's opinion even if we don't agree totally. As I respect your's. Cheers From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 20:15:35 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (Leeann McCullough) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:15:35 -0400 Subject: harry to blame References: <1086876083.10928.59638.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007901c44f27$b138b920$0100007f@CPQ16151965929> No: HPFGUIDX 100703 I'm sorry, but how can Harry be to blame. He hates Snape, justified or not. What 15 year old would swallow his pride and go back after that encounter. Personally, I would rather drink stinksap. DD or someone else should have told Harry that Voldemort could be using him. I can't help but believe if he knew that he would have worked harder to keep him out of his mind. As usual, they treat him like a child and expect him to do whatever they say with no explination. I'm not for full disclosure, where's the entertainment in that. But I do think he should be treated as more of an equal. After all he is our hero! Leeann who has no magical power despite being called a witch a few times! From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:06:30 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:06:30 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100704 Darrin: > > We know more than that. We know that Dumbledore is disappointed in > Snape's performance, to the point where he believes he made a mistake > putting him in charge of the job. He says Snape couldn't get over the past. > > That means Snape didn't do the job. Whether he gave D-Dore the courtesy of > a "resignation" by saying "I can't do it, Headmaster" or he just stopped, in spite > of Lupin, Sirius and D-Dore's urgings really doesn't matter much, does it? Ally: Well, DD did say it was a mistake not to teach Harry himself, but I think its a leap to go from there to saying Snape didn't do the job. We know that Snape taught Harry for several months and Harry himself in a fit of grief says that he never practiced despite being told to do so by Hermione. And remember, in the end, occlumency wasn't important after all. It didn't help Harry one bit. So how could Snape have failed at a job that didn't really matter? I think its strongly suggested in the end that DD knew about Snape and Harry's falling out and, by that time, had an inkling that occlumency wasn't going to be that important. If he thought it was important at that time, then wouldn't he have at least told Harry to keep practicing on his own? Wouldn't he have sent someone - Lupin, Sirius, etc. - to tell Harry that? I really suspect that DD hoped all along that occlumency would be a way for Harry and Snape to resolve some of their differences, in addition to teaching occlumency. By the time Snape had his fit, DD was beginning to realize or had realized how little good occlumency was doing, so he let the whole thing drop. It was a moot point by then. Ally From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 10 21:16:09 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:16:09 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100705 > Ally: > b) (snip) Maybe DD thought this would be a way to help Snape and Harry come to some kind of agreement or meeting of the minds? Given the importance he places on everyone trusting each other and since Harry and Snape are the two clearest examples of Order members who don't - and fairly important members, at that - it seems likely that he might have tried to push them together and hoped that by seeing into each other's minds that they might come to a better understanding of one another . . . which seemed to be happening a bit before that whole pensieve fiasco. < (more snip) Boyd: Very MD-ish (Magic Dishwasherish) of you, which I like! But I happen to follow the more JKR-centric view of things, in which it is not DD who is arranging these things with his sometime brilliance, but JKR for the simple reason that it helps move the character development and/or plot. Perhaps that's a bit Garbage Scowish of me, but I'm still waiting for the plotting grandeur of DD to be unleashed upon us. However, your analysis of why DD would have wanted to do this ("he might have tried to push them together and hoped that by seeing into each other's minds that they might come to a better understanding of one another") meshes quite well with mine as to why JKR needed to do this. I posit that both Harry and us, the readers, needed to develop some sympathy for Snape before book 6 (when I expect Harry will very reluctantly need Snape's help). Thus the Occlumency lessons. Plus that makes them a bit nastier and tougher on our increasingly set-upon hero. She's certainly pushing him toward something! Boyd Who returns after a long absence from the fold. From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:21:52 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:21:52 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: <003c01c44e75$d40bcda0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100706 Ann: > What bothers me about these Harry-Snape-Sirius debates is that everyone is so quick to condemn the character they don't like and defend the one they do...and yeah, we all do that, but some of the sheer *venom* that gets thrown at the other character taht is painted as 'the Bad Guy' bugs me. 'Well, they deserve what's coming to them!' is a common attitiude, and I always think when I read that 'Oh, really...? Have you stopped to consider that that's exactly what people like Voldemort think right before they kill someone for being...'different'. > Im saying is this: > > Either they are both to blame, or no blame should be assigned, because quite frankly, it was a cluster-fuck all the way around, and everyone made mistakes, and were simply doing what they thought was right, even if they were wrong. > Ally: You know, I have just been kind of smacking my head over the same thing. People who love Sirius apologize for his faults or gloss over them but really put the microscope to Snape's faults and hold him fully accountable for them. People who love Snape are quick to reference his bad childhood and easy to forgive his mistakes. And everyone who loves Harry gives him a pass b/c he's a kid. I personally love Snape, and in my heart of hearts hate Sirius and like Harry but don't think he's all that. But when I take a reasonable, rationale look at them, they are really not so different - all grew up in less than nurturing environments and all have character flaws that, at least for Sirius and Snape, have not gone away in adulthood. None of these people are without issues and none really deserves to be judged more harshly than the other. What KILLS me is the hypocrisy of people - in all fandoms - who will assassinate one character while totally ignoring the faults of their fave. I don't mind people being fans. We all are. I know of very few HP fans who don't have a favorite character they love above all others. But if one character was clearly right in, e.g. the occlumency situation/Sirius' death, it would mean JKR wasn't that good of a writer to begin with. What makes these scenes great is that every character messes up in a way that is totally consistent with that character's flaws - Snape flips out, DD is too protective of Harry and optimistic about Snape, Sirius ignores Kreacher and acts impetuously and Harry betrays Snape by looking into the pensieve - and it all comes together into a tragic event. This is what good writing does - it doesn't judge. Unfortunately, most readers do not follow their writer's example. From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:40:51 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:40:51 EDT Subject: Other Witnesses (was Snape's Liability/Snape's Loyalty (-long-) ) Message-ID: <8e.d239c8c.2dfa2f63@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100707 In a message dated 06/10/2004 4:59:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stefanie writes: My trust in Snape is a bit rocky. I want to believe that he's loyal because Dumbledore does and have it as cut and dry as that...but then again, Dumbledore trusted Quirrel who had LV growing out of the back of his head, Lockheart who ended up to be the worlds biggest fraud, and fake!Moody who, well, was fake. --- Jo Ann: Been looking for an opportunity to bring this up, and this seems as good a time as any. I think we do have one other character witness for Snape, albeit a silent and circumstantial one: Professor McGonagall. Reading through the books, it occured to me that though Minerva--who seems a good judge of character--rarely speaks out plainly against a fellow teacher, Harry sees plenty of evidence when she doesn't like, respect, or trust a colleague. It doesn't seem to matter whether they're an established staff member or an outsider (witness Trelawney and Umbridge.) However, we also see that she's quite willing to take the side of someone she considers a foolish fraud against someone she feels is a greater evil (i.e., when Umbridge went to sack Trelawney in OotP.) Now compare that scene to the staff room scene in CoS, when Lockhart shows up late and Snape calls his bluff, suggesting he should go to the Chamber and do his DADA thing. McGonagall jumps right in and backs Snape up, and the other Heads of House follow her lead without hesitation. Throughout the stories, I remember a few situations where the House rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin has come into play between McGonagall and Snape, but I don't recall that she has ever said or done anything to indicate that she doubts his loyalty or trustworthiness, or even that she holds a particularly strong dislike for him. And I doubt that knowing DD trusts the man would stop her from expressing her own opinion, in one way or another. Indeed, most of the times we've seen Snape and McGonagall together at important moments, they've presented a united front--whether or not DD was present. It proves nothing, but it's perhaps something to think about. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 21:42:00 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:42:00 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: <40C8C827.90109@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100708 hey everyone, I've been lurking for a long time but now that I'm home from school it's time to join the fun! I've been thinking the past couple days about the singing valentine that Harry recieved in Chamber of Secrets and was going to write about that and then today I started reading the thread about something little playing a huge role and I thought that maybe this would be it. "Eyes as green as a fresh-pickled toad, Hair as dark as a black board, I wish he were mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered the dark lord" (sorry, might not be exact, don't have my book with me) Does that really sound like something that Ginny Weasley would write? I don't think it does. At that point in the story Ginny is the only one we've seen that's showed any form of a romantic interest in Harry, that coupled with Ginny's aparant embarassment naturally leads us to assume that the valentine comes from her, I think that's what JKR wanted us to assume. I don't think that this is what really happend though. For one thing, the embarassment can be easily explained after finishing the book by the fact that she saw Harry with Riddle's diary, the very one that she'd been pouring her heart out to all year, she's worried that it divulged her secrets to Harry. So the question is, who did send that valentine? I have a theory. What if it was Luna? 'fresh-pickled toads'? come on, who else is so quirky that they would consider this to be appropriate for a love poem? Luna would've been a first year at the time, she most likely would've known who Harry is. I've been re-reading the books, just finished COS which is why I was thinking about it to begin with. Once I get to book five I'm going to watch Luna's initial reactions to suddenly being around Harry to see if there's any evidence of a past, possibly current, crush on him. How does this relate to something huge? Luna/Harry SHIP of course! I'm not entirely sure that I personally support such a happening, but I wont deny that it's a possiblity and could be truly entertaining. Sorry if it got a bit long! Janelle From bard7696 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:40:56 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:40:56 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100709 > And remember, in the end, occlumency wasn't important after all. It > didn't help Harry one bit. Had Harry been able to block the image of Sirius being tortured, I think that might have helped. So how could Snape have failed at a job > that didn't really matter? I think its strongly suggested in the end > that DD knew about Snape and Harry's falling out and, by that time, > had an inkling that occlumency wasn't going to be that important. If > he thought it was important at that time, then wouldn't he have at > least told Harry to keep practicing on his own? Wouldn't he have > sent someone - Lupin, Sirius, etc. - to tell Harry that? As he was fleeing Hogwarts on the back of Fawkes' tail, Dumbledore told Harry to keep studying it. That means D-Dore thought it was important. > I really suspect that DD hoped all along that occlumency would be a > way for Harry and Snape to resolve some of their differences, in > addition to teaching occlumency. Maybe if there wasn't a war on, D-Dore could indulge in such manipulative diplomacy, but I don't agree. D-Dore wanted Snape to do a job and Snape couldn't or wouldn't do it. Harry certainly didn't hold up his end, but -- I keep returning to this -- Snape is the adult AND he knows much more of what is at stake. Darrin From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 10 21:57:22 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:57:22 -0400 Subject: Percival... Percy... Hmm... Message-ID: <000f01c44f35$e9483120$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100710 I've seen the DD!Ron theory floating around the mailing list for a while now and though it always seemd a bit of a strange one to me, well, theories do tend to be strange especially as far as HP is concerned. And now I thought... DD's second name is Percival... and Percy's name is, well, Percy. If DD is some sort of time-traveller and there are two of him in the books, could Percy be it, then, and not Ron? It'd explain how DD knew Harry's trial in OOP was earlier and at a different place than originally planned, though that's probably the only it would explain. Can't say my theory is any less strange than the original, eh? Alina. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 21:20:07 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:20:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: WW Technology V Muggle Technology References: Message-ID: <003d01c44f30$b5256d90$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100711 When I saw that first post, I couldn't help but think of the wizarding wireless at the Weasley's house. Can't you just see everybody sitting around the table, drinking coffee and listening to some program with a title like Magical Melodies? I swear, it makes me nostalgic. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Thu Jun 10 22:33:21 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:33:21 -0000 Subject: OWLS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100712 I have a random and simple question. How do you think everyone did on their OWLS? Harry had much to worry about - do you think he failed anything? What do you think his classes will be in year 6? I apologize if we have talked about this already. "troublenbass" From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Thu Jun 10 22:28:17 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:28:17 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100713 Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. Maggie B: > The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was Colin > Creevy. Gina: > I have always thought the "little" thing was the Alley though. I > think those people are vampires and my mother swears they are people > that have been "kissed" by dementors. I think Colin Creevy was an invention for our entertainment. It probably has something to do with Godric v. Salazar I suppose. Maybe Harry's true Gryffindor ability will help him defeat Voldemort (The "gleam of triumph in DD's eye could maybe relate, because LV was suddenly in debt to a Gryffindor). This could also have to do with the Sorting Hat's Song in OotP. However, I think it was one of the last books that we were really taken through a lot of the lessons - maybe something to do with the history of magic.... Just a thought. "troublenbass" From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 22:37:04 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040610223704.75958.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100714 Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something > "little" in Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two > books. For the life of me, I have no idea what that > might be. > Ideas? I'm wondering if it's not the Hand of Glory. It was one of those things that stood out, especially with Draco's interest in it. Also - it would fit the last few titles of books: Chamber OF Secrets Prizoner OF Azkaban Goblet OF Fire Order OF the Pheonix Hand OF Glory Yes, that's total speculation on my part, but I half wonder if it's not the title of the next book... ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From Farquar306 at aol.com Thu Jun 10 22:55:14 2004 From: Farquar306 at aol.com (farquarson2003) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:55:14 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100715 bookworm: > I do think the Weasleys will come out on top in some fashion. I > don't think Rowling is following any exact blueprint or basing > her stories exactly on Camelot or any other legend, but there are > enough elements of all of them in the Weasleys to make them look > awfully special in some way: > > -- The names: Arthur Weasley/King Arthur; Ginny/Ginevra/Queen > Guinevere; Percy/Sir Percival. > -- References to royalty: Harry dreams of Ron and Hermione > wearing crowns; the Slytherins and then the Gryffindors > sing "Weasley is our King"; Bill, the oldest son, is dating Fleur, > whose full name translates to "flower of the court"; Ron plays the > part of a knight in the human game of Wizard's Chess in the very > first story; even the Weasleys swearing by "Merlin's beard." > > > If I were to make predictions, I'd say she did pick them for a > reason and is maybe toying with the idea of making Arthur Minister > of Magic; maybe the Weasley sons and daughter will become honored > for their courage and feats of daring as knights in Dumbledore's > Army; maybe Percy, who was sorted into Gryffindor like the rest of > his brave, loyal, red-headed siblings, will redeem himself and die > heroically; maybe Ginny will begin dating Harry and Ron will date > Hermione and both will be important in some sense as lead couples > of the wizarding world. You may well be right. In any case, all of the Weasleys have names that are associated with royalty--even Ron. His full name, as we know, is Ronald Bilius Weasley. "Ronald" is a Norse name, derived from "Rogunald" or "Ragnald," meaning "Mighty power." After careful examination of names of British monarchs, I found the following: KING OF THE ISLES (Hebrides) Ragnald 1164-c.1210 NORSE KINGS OF THE ISLE OF MAN Ragnald 1164 Ragnald 1187-1229 Ragnald 1248-1249 So there are four kings who bear the name from which Ron's name is derived. Bill Weasley bears the name of four kings as well: William I(1066- 87), usually called William the Conqueror; William II(1087-1100), called William Rufus for his red hair; William III (1689-1702) of the House of Orange, co-ruler with his wife Mary; and William IV (1830-37) of the House of Hanover, Queen Victoria's uncle. Not to mention, of course, the eldest son of the current Prince of Wales. Charlie Weasley bears the name of the current Prince of Wales and two kings: Charles I (1625-49), who was beheaded, and Charles II(1660- 85), second son of Charles I. Percy Ignatius Weasley bears a foreshortened form of Percival, the name of a knight in Arthurian legend. Here is the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/percival.html) on the subject: "The Knight of the Round Table who, according to Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, finally won sight of the Holy Grail. He was the son of Sir Pellinore and brother of Sir Lamorak. In the earlier French romances he has no connection with the Grail, but here he sees the lance, dripping with blood, and the severed head surrounded by blood on a dish. "The French version of the romance is by Chr?tien de Troyes (12th century), which formed the basis of Sebastian Evans's The High History of the Holy Graal (1893)." "Percy" is also the name of a noble English family of Flemish descent who were allegedly kin to kings. Interestingly, Henry Percy, 9th Earl of Northumberland (1585-1632), was later known as the Wizard Earl. (I like that.) Fred Weasley's name is more problematic. The pattern has been that of kings who reigned over British territory. While there are a couple of kings named Frederick (Frederick William and Frederick the Great), both are Prussian, not British. Perhaps "Fred" is a foreshortened form of "Alfred." In that case, we'd have Alfred (871-99), called the Great. George Weasley bears a name of no less than six kings: George I (1714- 27), George II (1727-60), George III (1760-1820), George IV (1820- 30), all of the House of Hanover; and George V (1910-36) and George VI (1936-52), both of the House of Windsor. Ron has been discussed already. Ginevra Molly Weasley. Ginevra, the Italian form of Guinevere. This has probably been mentioned already, but here is Encyclopedia Mythica's article on Guinevere and various interpretations of her character (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/guinevere.html): "Arthur's queen. According to Giraldus Cambrensis, the inscribed cross from the royal grave at Glastonbury named her as Arthur's second wife. Nothing is known of this first wife. Since the only surviving drawing of the cross only depicts one side and, presumably, any allusion to the queen was on the other, the claim of Giraldus is unverifiable. Those who believe Arthur died and was buried at Glastonbury generally accept that Guinevere was buried with him. "By the hand of Geoffrey of Monmouth, Guinevere becomes a beautiful lady with a Roman heritage, raised in the house of Duke Cador of Cornwall. Little else is said until the end of Arthur's reign when she betrays the King by becoming the lover of the usurper Mordred. However, while the two are in battle, she runs away to Caerleon and enters a convent. The recurring theme of her entanglement with men besides her husband, whether by consent or abduction, has many variations. When kidnapped, she must be saved. On the archivolt in Modena Cathedral is a depiction, maybe pre-Geoffrey, of Arthur rescuing the queen. He must do it again in Caradoc's "Vitae" of Gildas, this time the queen having been abducted by King Melwas of Somerset. When connected to the theme of infidelity later, the rescuer becomes not her husband but Lancelot. "These depictions might arise from a misinterpretation of the traditions of Celtic queens. A Celtic queen, like Medb of the Irish saga Tain Bo Culainge, was the equal of her husband in power and wealth. She also had affairs without reproach. Medieval writers could not have seen this free and equal behaviour as anything but stubborn infidelity. Their altered social perceptions would have precluded any true understanding hence Guinevere has since been cast as the unfaithful woman. "The romances depict her as the daughter of Leodegan, previous owner of the Round Table, which she brings as part of her dowry to Arthur. She has a doppleganger named the False Guinevere, another daughter of Leodegan, who tempts Arthur away from court. The queens conduct is given further excuse by Arthur's encounters with Morgause and other women. Whereas the Welsh are always critical of her (until recently, to call a girl Guinevere in Wales was a reflection on her chastity), the continental writers show a sympathy for her that cause them to break totally from Geoffrey. They redirect the Queen's attentions from Mordred, whose lustful advances are rejected with scorn, to Lancelot, a more noble and magnificent character. "The affair is well established by the time of Chr?tien de Troyes. A constant problem for writers is the King's disposition about it. Rare among literary characters, Arthur is cuckolded yet is able to retain his dignity. He refuses to acknowledge the problem until it is scandalously forced into the open by Agravain. When Arthur tries to fufill his duty and execute her, she is resued by Lancelot but the ensuing conflicts and rivalries signal the beginning of the end to Arthur's golden age. "In Malory, the Queen reaches a depth that had only been hinted at by his predecessors. She becomes giving and tragically passionate. She is childless in a marriage to a man she respects but doesn't love and in love with a man she can never have. The love affair with Lancelot, while jealous and sometimes cruel, endures and is undeniable. She enters the convent at Amesbury after the final battle. Lancelot visits her there and she sends him away with a fond but penitent farewell, realizing that their deeds have brought about the ruin of the noblest group the world has known. Malory says, "She was a true lover and therefore she had a good end."" Molly Weasley doesn't actually have to have a name with a royal or Arthurian theme, being a Weasley by marriage and not by blood. However, if you accept Molly as being a derivative or diminuitive form of Mary, then you have Mary I(1553-58), eldest daughter of Henry VIII, and Mary II (1689-1702), of the House of Stuart, co-ruler with William III of the House of Orange. So there we have it. All the Weasleys, without exception, bear the names of kings and queens who ruled over Britian or areas now belonging to Britain. "farquarson2003" From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 23:19:36 2004 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: <1086840288.4689.98674.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040610231936.8222.qmail@web52405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100716 Mel wrote: <"Personally, I think if you can't see Snape's discontinuation of Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100717 "farquarson2003" wrote: > "Ginevra Molly Weasley. Ginevra, the Italian form of Guinevere. > This has probably been mentioned already, but here is Encyclopedia > Mythica's article on Guinevere and various interpretations of her > character (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/guinevere.html)" Very interesting summary of the meanings of Ginny and the royal Weasley names. I also found another interesting reference when I did a search for "Ginevra" on Yahoo. There's a famous Leonardo da Vinci portrait of a young woman named Ginevra De'Benci. That Ginevra was apparently also a poet. Her only surviving line of poetry is something like "I ask your forgiveness and I am a mountain tiger." Here's a link to an article about the painting: www.csmonitor.com/2001/1024/p22s2-hfes.html The painting doesn't look anything like Ginny, of course. The girl is far too solemn and sour looking. But I thought the "mountain tiger" reference is interesting, especially since Ginny is so often compared to a cat. I've seen speculation that Ginny is an animagus -- probably a graceful, ginger tabby! Maybe Rowling did some research into the name and is referencing it? Ginevra also can mean "juniper," and that is the bush painted in the portrait. bookworm857158367 From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 00:49:19 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:49:19 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > > Granted Snape's initial hostility to a child is petty and unworthy > > but after five years Harry has given SS plenty of reason to dislike > > him for himself, not his father. > > > How? By saving the Philosopher's Stone when Dumbledore was tricked out of > the castle? By defeating the Basilisk when every teacher, including Snape, > was at a loss on how to do it? By keeping Snape from leading an innocent > man to his execution? (Or by costing Snape the Order of Merlin?) By escaping > Voldemort? By saving Arthur Weasley? How about by stealing Snape's supplies to brew illegal potions, splashing engorgement potion on half the class in the process? And Harry's flagrant disregard for rules is something that concerns even DD, not to mention the kid's smart mouth. Basically the two of them got off to a bad start, (which was Snape's fault) and went downhill from there. > When? He didn't risk anything in SS/PS. He muttered a counter-curse until > Hermione could distract Quirrell. Certainly no risk to Snape, because Quirrell > wasn't gonig to attack him in full view of the world. Ah, but it wasn't just Quirrell was it? Voldy is there inside Q - and I've wondered for some time how SS explained that away. > Snape didn't save Harry from anything in PoA. Maybe he thought he was, but > Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius and Snape was unconscious by the time > Harry needed saving from Lupin Wolf and the Dementors. The point is *Snape* doesn't know Harry's in no danger! (nor do Harry, Hermione and Ron) he goes into the Shrieking Shack believing he will be at imminent risk from a desperate outlaw wizard and his accomplice. Intent counts for something here. > Am I missing another time? As a matter of fact yes. You are forgetting that Snape goes into the Dark Forest to search for Harry and co. when they don't return to the school - unaware that they have gone off to rescue Sirius. If that isn't risking his life I don't know what is. > I agree, Harry was wrong to do that. It was a colossal screw-up. Of course, > had Snape paused for a second, he'd have seen, and still could see, how > horrified Harry was at what he saw. If Snape knew how much that shook > Harry's view of James, he might be GLAD Harry did it. It did more damage to > Harry-James than any ranting Snape has ever done. Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy goes way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held thoughts Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on the off chance that they might contain the information he wants so badly about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he wanted to know. Serves him right. The fact is Snape could have gone on teaching Harry occlumency til the cows came home and it would have done not a lick of good. Harry didn't want to close his mind to Voldy - he wanted to know what was behind the door. No number of classes would have changed that. It all comes back to Harry I'm afraid. From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 00:57:34 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:57:34 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <149.2b6a2c06.2df9e6aa@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > In a message dated 06/10/2004 10:02:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Let's remember that Harry isn't the only one with a mark on him that connects > him to the Dark Lord. All blame aside, DD may have allowed the lessons to > end because they created a greater danger than the one they prevented. Dumbledore is clearly in an uneviable position. The only two people capable of teaching Harry occlumens are the two most at risk if they do any such thing. I guess DD decided that Snape's was the lesser danger. After all Voldy knows SS is at Hogwarts and has to at least pretend to obey Dumbledore. On the other hand DD apparently feared that Voldemort might attack him through Harry forcing him to chose between hurting or killing the boy in self defense or allowing Harry to hurt or kill him. Second guessing himself after the fact Dumbledore decides this was in fact the lesser evil - I'm not sure I agree. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 01:13:10 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:13:10 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of > his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy goes > way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held thoughts > Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on the off > chance that they might contain the information he wants so badly > about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he wanted to > know. Serves him right. Serves him right what? Could you please calrify? Serves him right that he got possessed by Voldemort? Serves him right that he got almost killed? Maybe that was what Snape really wanted? Leave Harry to Voldemort and see who wins? Well, luckily Dumbledore got there on time, but that was soo close > The fact is Snape could have gone on teaching Harry occlumency til > the cows came home and it would have done not a lick of good. Harry > didn't want to close his mind to Voldy - he wanted to know what was > behind the door. No number of classes would have changed that. > > It all comes back to Harry I'm afraid. How do we know that? I think that with the right teacher Harry would have been much more succesful with occlumency (Who knows, maybe he indeed learned something from Snape too). I am afraid it all comes back to Dumbledore's stupidity and Snape's emotional defficiency first and foremost. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 01:25:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:25:49 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > That's the spirit! > Sorry, Anne, but just for once I have to agree with Alla. I may be wrong > (many thousands nod enthusiastically) but I don't consider that a valid > reason for being uncertain. We're at the roulette table placing our bets > and the ball is still bouncing around the wheel. Some of the bets will > be made by 'rational' methods - analysis of the plot, JKR's track record, > clues, etc., some are based on personal prejudices (I don't like *him*.) > Alla blinks. Looks at the computer, rereads the first sentence of Kneasy's post and blinks again. She wants to go and check her eyesight tomorrow to make sure that she read Kneasy's words correctly. :o) snip > I strongly uphold the convention that posters should not indulge in > personal insults or rudeness directed at other posters, but fictional > characters are fair game (even the sitting ducks) and if someone wants > to go for DD's throat like a rabid ferret, then good luck, well done, we've > got a lively thread here lads, might keep us entertained for, ooh, at > least a week. Then it'll be someone else's turn. > Exactly, thank you! Could someone please point out to me where in the rules of this list it is written that characters are to be awarded "equal treatment" in the debates? :) . snips. > Which brings me back to the current thread. What to make of this lot? > > What caused the debacle resulting in Sirius's demise? > > Causes: > Harry's inability to put his hatred of Snape in perspective. > It poisons all interactions between the two. No compromise was possible > in his view even when instructed that it was necessary. > DD being too clever by half. > Snape not admitting that it wasn't going to work. He's the one in a > position to judge progress or lack of it. He should have insisted that > DD take over long before it blew up. > Sirius being Sirius, especially when he intimated to Harry that Harry > would have his support if *in Harry's opinion* Snape was being nasty. > In Harry's opinion Snape is *always* nasty. And here's Sirius, his role > model, bolstering his prejudices. > > Split 'em how you like. Half full or half empty? None is blameless, > but it's Harry's total intransigence that sets the avalanche in motion. > > Kneasy Actually, Kneasy, if I go into my analysing mode, I may as well agree with your list of causes, which contributed to OoP mess. But see, that is not going to last for too long. Because of course it is Snape's fault. :o) Alla From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 01:25:53 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:25:53 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Serves him right what? Could you please calrify? Serves him right > that he got possessed by Voldemort? Serves him right that he got > almost killed? Serves him right that he saw something that upset him. You now the saying' 'Eavesdroppers never hear anything good' well it certainly applied here. > How do we know that? I think that with the right teacher Harry would > have been much more succesful with occlumency (Who knows, maybe he > indeed learned something from Snape too). Only if he wanted to learn and I'm afraid that Harry makes it very clear he doesn't want to learn occlumency if it means ending the dreams before he finds out what's behind the door. I'm not at all sure it would have made any difference at all if Dumbledore had been the one teaching him. Harry. Didn't. Want. To. Learn. So he didn't. > > I am afraid it all comes back to Dumbledore's stupidity and Snape's > emotional defficiency first and foremost. More like back to Harry's stubborn independence. As somebody observed some time back shutting out the grownups and following his own instincts has always worked for Harry in the past. This time it doesn't. A salutory but expensive lesson. Obviously Harry is going to have to find a middle ground between complete obedience and complete independence. But then doesn't everybody? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 01:39:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:39:04 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100723 Alla: previously> > > How do we know that? I think that with the right teacher Harry > would > > have been much more succesful with occlumency (Who knows, maybe he > > indeed learned something from Snape too). > Rowena: > Only if he wanted to learn and I'm afraid that Harry makes it very > clear he doesn't want to learn occlumency if it means ending the > dreams before he finds out what's behind the door. I'm not at all > sure it would have made any difference at all if Dumbledore had been > the one teaching him. Harry. Didn't. Want. To. Learn. So he didn't. > > Alla: Well, both of us can just speculate at this moment, don't we? I would say that Harry. Didn't. Want. To learn. From Snape. So he didn't and it lead to disaster. He should have tried harder, but he was not the one, who set the wheels of the said disaster in motion. Rowena: Obviously Harry is going to > have to find a middle ground between complete obedience and complete > independence. But then doesn't everybody? Alla: Too true. From drcarole71 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 00:21:34 2004 From: drcarole71 at yahoo.com (drcarole71) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:21:34 -0000 Subject: alastor and albus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100724 I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but Alastor and Albus both begin with Al... Does anyone know if the word Auror exists in English? Is it similar to aurora, as in aurora borealis? If so, does it mean "light", or does "borealis" mean light? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 01:57:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:57:54 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > And remember, in the end, occlumency wasn't important after all. It > didn't help Harry one bit. So how could Snape have failed at a job > that didn't really matter? I think its strongly suggested in the end > that DD knew about Snape and Harry's falling out and, by that time, > had an inkling that occlumency wasn't going to be that important. If > he thought it was important at that time, then wouldn't he have at > least told Harry to keep practicing on his own? Wouldn't he have > sent someone - Lupin, Sirius, etc. - to tell Harry that? Alla: Well, wasn't important and did not really matter are two different things, IMO. As Darrin said, it certainly was important in Dumbledore's opinion, since he told Harry to study, when he was leaving school. I wanted to comment on the subject of how "sufficiently Harry was informed about possible consequences of non-studying". When Voldie plants in his mind the vision about Sirius trapped in MoM, Harry has NO CLUE that it could be a trap, NONE. He is convinced that the vision is real. Yea, he was able to connect the dotes from Snape's bits and pieces of information, NOT. "You don't get it!" Harry shouted at her. " I'm not having nightmares, I am not just dreaming! What d'you think all the Occlumency was for , why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing those things? Because they are REAL" -OOP, p.734 Nobody bothered to tell Harry that the main reason for occlumency was to prevent Voldie from planting FALSE visions in his mind. And even though Hermione screaches that it could have been just a dream, she does not say that it could have been a false vision. No wonder that Harry is not prepared to listen. Yes, most likely Harry would have rush to save Sirius either way, or maybe just maybe he would have been more careful with his thought process and remembered faster that Snape is a member of the Order too. :o) AllY: > I really suspect that DD hoped all along that occlumency would be a > way for Harry and Snape to resolve some of their differences, in > addition to teaching occlumency. Alla: Oh, of course. this is one of the possible reasons. or that JKR simply needed them together for plot purposes. AllY: By the time Snape had his fit, DD > was beginning to realize or had realized how little good occlumency > was doing, so he let the whole thing drop. It was a moot point by > then. > Alla: Or Dumbledore realised that it was a catastrophe, but trying to fix it will make things only worse. From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 11 02:00:35 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:00:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] alastor and albus References: Message-ID: <003601c44f57$e37d8660$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100726 > I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but Alastor and Albus > both begin with Al... > Does anyone know if the word Auror exists in English? Is it similar > to aurora, as in aurora borealis? If so, does it mean "light", or > does "borealis" mean light? > Aurora is the goddess of dawn in Roman mythology (a counterpart to the Greek Eos). And btw, the chemical element name for gold is Aurum. Also think of the word "aura," which is generally pictured as a glow surrounding something or someone. Alina. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 02:29:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:29:04 -0000 Subject: Is Harry afraid of Snape? Was : Who is the adult? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: previously> > > > How do we know that? I think that with the right teacher Harry > > would > > > have been much more succesful with occlumency (Who knows, maybe > he > > > indeed learned something from Snape too). > > > > > Rowena: > > Only if he wanted to learn and I'm afraid that Harry makes it > very > > clear he doesn't want to learn occlumency if it means ending the > > dreams before he finds out what's behind the door. I'm not at all > > sure it would have made any difference at all if Dumbledore had > been > > the one teaching him. Harry. Didn't. Want. To. Learn. So he didn't. > > > > > > Alla: > > Well, both of us can just speculate at this moment, don't we? > > > I would say that Harry. Didn't. Want. To learn. From Snape. So he > didn't and it lead to disaster. He should have tried harder, but he > was not the one, who set the wheels of the said disaster in motion. > > > > Rowena: > > Obviously Harry is going to > > have to find a middle ground between complete obedience and > complete > > independence. But then doesn't everybody? > > > Alla: Too true. Alla: Sorry for replying to my post, but i just thought of additional support fo the suggestion that Snape was wrong, wrong, wrong choice to teach Harry Occlumency. We all know, that for the most times Snape is uncapable to bully Harry into submission, unlike poor Neville. Harry talks back, fights back, etc. But, but, I believe that in the OOP it becomes clear that Harry IS afraid of Snape and it hinders his learning too. Sure, he will talk back, but he is afraid nevertheless, I think. "Shut the door behind you, Potter. Harry did as he was told with the horrible feeling that he was imprisoning himselfas he did so." - OOP, p.529 "Harry threw him a filthy look before doing as he was told. He did not like the idea of standing there with his eyes shut, while Snape faced him, carrying a wand" OOP, p.535 "I am working!" said Harry, nettled. "You try it sometime, Snape is trying to get inside your head, it is not a bundle of laughs, you know!" - OOP, p.554. Sorry, but for all his good intentions, if there are any, dumbledore could not have found worst candidate to teach Harry. Alla From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 02:29:46 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:29:46 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100729 Kathi wrote: Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no idea what that might be. Ideas? vmonte responds: "Little" Ginny, of course. vivian From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 11 02:35:24 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:35:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's liability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100730 | From: rowena_grunnionffitch | Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:57 AM [I wrote]: | > The biggest thing I see is that Snape didn't really prepare Harry; | he didn't | > tell him plainly enough, IMHO, what to expect when the | word "Legilimens" was | > spoken. [rowena responds]:| | The first "Legilmens" would have told Harry everthing he needed to | know about that. | [I wrote]: | > Really, if one is going to teach something that requires clearing | the mind | > and, in essence, centering oneself, Snape should have taken a bit | of time to | > help Harry to get into that preparatory state. [rowena responds]:| | Why? When teaching the Patronus charm Lupin simply told Harry to | find a happy memory, asked if he was ready and launched the | boggart/dementor on him without further ado. He then repeated the | process until Harry got the hang of it. I don't see how this is any | different. Snape tells Harry what he must do, then challenges him to | do it. If Harry had *wanted* to master occlumency as he wanted to | master the Patronus he would certainly have done so in short order. [Lee here again]: Agreed, to a point. Telling someone to focus on a happy memory is a lot more tangible than telling someone to clear their mind. For those who've never tried consciously to do this, well...that's something a lot harder to do than focus on something tangible like a happy memory. I've done centering meditation and know first-hand that clearing the mind can be a rough thing to understand. Once one has learned how to do it, then it comes more naturally. [I had written]: | > Does any of this sound understandable? I think both Harry and | Snape did | > wrong things, but a personality clash can certainly make a working | > relationship miserable and, sometimes, futile. | [rowena responded]: | Now here we are in complete agreement. Harry and Snape's miserable | relationship is the fault of both, though rather more Snape's since | he is the grown-up. [Lee again]: Yes, indeed, and guess it just goes to prove that being grown up doesn't necessarily mean being a true grown-up. Is we having fun? :-) Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 02:40:51 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:40:51 -0000 Subject: alastor and albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100731 Aurora means light because there are both northern and southern lights northern being the aurora borealis, and southern being the aurora austrailis. So then the aurors would be the force of light fighting the dark magic. psychobirdgirl From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 02:49:24 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:49:24 -0000 Subject: Percival... Percy... Hmm... In-Reply-To: <000f01c44f35$e9483120$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100732 Alina wrote: I've seen the DD!Ron theory floating around the mailing list for a while now and though it always seemd a bit of a strange one to me, well, theories do tend to be strange especially as far as HP is concerned. And now I thought... DD's second name is Percival... and Percy's name is, well, Percy. If DD is some sort of time-traveller and there are two of him in the books, could Percy be it, then, and not Ron? It'd explain how DD knew Harry's trial in OOP was earlier and at a different place than originally planned, though that's probably the only it would explain. vmonte responds: Although I'm a Ron=DD believer, I'm going to add a bit of canon for your theory. During Harry's trial, JKR makes a point to remark that DD and PERCY would not look in Harry's direction/make eye contact. vivian From fandulin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 02:56:22 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:56:22 -0000 Subject: First Triwizard task....cruel? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100733 I was re-reading portions of GoF the other day, my favorite volume, and it occurred to me that the first Triwizard task is a little cruel. Has anyone else thought this? They take these awesome creatures, dragons, out of the wild, and ship them to England for sport keeping them under control until the contest by continuously stunning them. They then take these nesting mothers and put them in an enclosure for a student to do....well, who knows what to them. I mean the kids are safe, what with all of the powerful wizards around, but they have no idea if these kids are going to do something that will seriously hurt the dragons or their eggs. Which is exactly what happens when Krum hits one of them in the eye with the conjunctivitis curse, causing it to run around in agony trampling half of it's own young. All fun and games though, apparently, with a few points taken off. It's particularly galling that Charlie Weasly, supposedly some kind of naturalist, who studies these creatures in the wild, would be complicit in this. On one hand, we're to believe that it's a great sin to harm a unicorn, but on the other hand, dragons, equally legendary creatures, are apparently fair game. Or am I being overly sensitive? I was just wondering if anyone else had given this any thought. From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 11 03:00:49 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:00:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] First Triwizard task....cruel? References: Message-ID: <007701c44f60$4d446840$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100734 > On one hand, we're to believe that it's a great sin to harm a unicorn, but > on the other hand, dragons, equally legendary creatures, are > apparently fair game. > > Or am I being overly sensitive? > > I was just wondering if anyone else had given this any thought. I don't think you're being overly sensitive, I think it all depends on how you imagine dragons. Dragons are, normally, portrayed as magical, legendary beings, but that's not necessarily how Rowlings thinks of them for her books. Remember a recent movie called Reign Of Fire, where Dragons were pretty much just big, flying, dumb animals that reproduced like fish? Besides, we've no idea how dragons treat their young. Could be half of them die after hatching anyway. I'm sure if every egg was precious and counted, they wouldn't have used real dragon eggs or dragons at all for the task. So I after reading it, I just assumed that using dragons and their eggs for the tournament was no less humane than when we eat caviar in real life (yum!). Alina. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 03:27:11 2004 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:27:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100735 I think there's going to be an attack at Privet Drive this summer. And Vernon will die. First, let me state some facts. I'll weave it all together after I list them. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. We know a few things from JKR's chats: 1) Someone will learn magic at a late age 2) This will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive 3) We know that some of the professors have spouses What we know from the books: 1) Harry will get his OWL's sometime during the summer 2) Dudley was able to sense the presence of the dementors 3) Fudge was not certain that SQUIBS could see dementors 4) McGonagall was so adamant that Harry become an Auror that she said she would tutor him herself if he needed it 5) Snape only lets people with an O in Potions into his NEWT class 6) The Dursleys have spoiled Dudley rotton 7) A lot of child wizards first use their talents when they are scared and angry 8) Dumbledore has some hold over Petunia to guarantee that she will continue to offer Harry a home with her 9) Dementors were dispatched to Privet Drive by Umbridge to get rid of Harry 10) The dementors have joined VM 11) Harry must stay where his mother's sister calls home in order to continue to be protected Here's the theory in a nutshell: There will be an attack on the Dursley home during the summer by the Voldemort camp. VM will know where to strike because the of the inforamation provided from the dementors that Umbridge sent in OotP. During this attack, Vernon will die. We will discover that Dudley is a wizard, but DD and Petunia were keeping it a secret for 16 years. Harry will also get his OWL's and be one grade below Snape's acceptance criteria for NEWT Potions. Harry, Petunia and Dudley will go to stay with McGonagall for the duration of the summer, to protect Petunia and Dudley and so Harry can be tutored by her in Potions and join the NEWT Potions class in the fall. Because Petunia no longer owns a home and is a refugee with other wizards, the protection on Harry is no longer in effect for the following summer. Here's my reasoning: JKR said that someone will learn to do magic late in life. I believe that's Dudley. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence to back this up. First, Hagrid told Harry in PS/SS that he was a wizard. When Harry denied it, Hagrid asked if he had ever made strange things happen when he was scared or angry. The Dursley's have always made sure that Dudley was never upset or scared. During the first birthday of Dudley's we see, he was about to pitch a fit because he had 2 fewer presents that the previous year. Petunia was quick to chime in and offer 3 more presents in order to placate him. Petunia is also always fawning over Dudders and trying to keep him "happy." I don't think Vernon has any idea, because he doesn't really fawn over Dudley. He just says stuff like "He's like his father, wants his money's worth" and spoils Dudley to make a differentiation between his son and Harry. He hates Harry, and what better way to abuse him than flaunt something under his nose. I also think Dudley will do magic because of the Dementors scene in OotP. It was never stated if Dudley could SEE the dementors, and I think that's a very important omission on JKR's part. Dudley said everything went dark, he got very, very cold, he remembered awful things and he felt like he would never be happy again. Those are the exact symptoms wizards state when describing a dementor experience. Even Arabella Figg used almost the exact same words at Harry's Ministry hearing. At that time, Fudge inquired if SQUIBS could see dementors, to which Figg replied they could. In PoA when Lupin is describing the dementors to Harry, he uses the same descriptive phrases that Dudley uses, then says that Muggles can sense them, but only because they feel depressed. I think that dementors can only attack wizards, otherwise they would be running Muggles unable to protect themselves down by the droves. The fact that Dudley COULD describe the effects leads me to believe he's a wizard incognito. I think hiding Dudley's ability is the reason that Petunia has been keeping Harry all this time. I speculate that in the letter DD left with Baby Harry, he stated that Dudley has the talent, gift, whatever. I think he struck a deal and told Petunia that if she kept Harry in her house, then he would not tell anyone of Dudley being a wizard and take him off the rolls for Hogwarts. He then proceeded to tell Petunia how to ensure that Dudley wouldn't spontaneously do magic as a child and then threatened to reveal Dudley's secret if she kicked Harry out. That was the point of DD's telegram in OotP, to remind Petunia if she broke her end of the bargain, then he would spill the beans about Dudley. If this is true, then it's likely that McGonagall knows, since she's the one in charge of the entrance roster. Which leads me to the next point. There has to be some reason to reveal this. I think the way to do it is for VM to attack the Dursley home. He most likely knows where it is located because Umbridge sent dementors there during the summer before Harry's 5th year. Since the dementors have now gone over to VM, he has this information. During this attack, I think Vernon will be killed. Vernon is one of JKR's least favorite characters and he is really adding nothing to the plot anymore. His death at the hands of VM would force Petunia to finally admit what she has been denying her whole adult life, that she can't escape from the wizarding world. With Vernon dead and her home destroyed, she will be forced to go into hiding because of her relationship with and the protection of Harry. In order to safeguard what's left of her family, I think Petunia will elect to hide out with wizards, and I believe McGonagall will be the one. Harry will receive his OWLS this summer, and I think he will be one grade away from admittance to Snape's NEWT Potions class. In order to become an Auror, he needs NEWT Potions. McGonagall stated in OotP that she would tutor Harry if he needed it, and I think she'll make a deal with Snape to tutor Harry and if he's up to scratch by the beginning of school, Snape will let him in. The Snape/Harry relationship is too vital to the plot for Harry not to have a class with him, and since I doubt Snape will be teaching DADA anytime soon, Harry must be in the NEWT Potions class. McGonagall will now need to tutor Harry as well as help protect Petunia and Dudley. McGonagall most likely knows about Dudley because she controlls the entrance rolls for the school. If a name was struck, then she probably did it. She's also a member of the OotP as well as Harry's Head of House, so she would be perfect for keeping tabs on the Dursleys. I think this will happen outside of Hogwarts, probably in the private residence of McGonagall. JKR stated that some professors have spouses, and since we've never seen/heard of them at Hogwarts, I assume they live off campus. This shows it's possible for McGonagall to have a house somewhere, and I bet that's where they'll wind up for the duration of the summer. Implications for the summer before Harry's 7th year: Because Petunia no longer has a home or husband and never had a job outside the home, I have a feeling she's going to be pretty destitute. Keeping Dudley spoiled and keeping up with the Joneses can't have been cheap, so I bet there's not a lot of spare cash, at least not enough to buy/rent a new dwelling. She may not even have enough to send Dudley back to school, if he even goes back after his 5th year. I think she'll be on the run. I think the best poetic justice would be for she and Dudley to stay with the Weasleys during Harry's 6th year at Hogwarts. Because Petunia now has no home, Harry will no longer have the protection from VM. DD states, "You only need return there once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt you." If Petunia had another home of her own, then yes, Harry could go there and be protected. My theory is that Petunia won't, so the summer before Harry's 7th year will be an interesting one to say the least. He will have no safe house, no place of absolute refuge. Just in time for all heck to break loose. bowlwoman From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 03:36:07 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:36:07 -0000 Subject: OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" wrote: > I have a random and simple question. How do you think everyone did on their > OWLS? Harry had much to worry about - do you think he failed anything? > What do you think his classes will be in year 6? > > I apologize if we have talked about this already. I've wondered about this one myself. I'm thinking no one but Hermione did well on the Astronomy final, because everyone was so upset by what was going on down at Hagrid's at the time. It's a given that Harry probably did well on the DADA test. I wonder if anyone else has any ideas... Alora From Farquar306 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 02:16:13 2004 From: Farquar306 at aol.com (farquarson2003) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:16:13 -0000 Subject: alastor and albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drcarole71" wrote: > I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but Alastor and Albus > both begin with Al... > Does anyone know if the word Auror exists in English? Is it > similar to aurora, as in aurora borealis? If so, does it > mean "light", or does "borealis" mean light? aurora -ae f. [dawn , break of day]; personified, [Aurora, goddess of morning]. meton., [the east]. Boreas -ae m. [the north wind]; meton. , [the north]. Boreus -a -um, Adj. [northern]. "Aurora borealis" is normally translated as "Northern lights." There is a similar phenomenon in the southern hemisphere called the "aurora australis" or "Southern lights." In English, an aurora is, to quote my dictionary, "a luminous electrical atmospheric phenomenon, usually of streamers of light in the sky above the northern or southern magnetic pole." It's possible that "auror" is a kind of subtle pun. Aurors are the enforcers of law in the wizarding world, like policemen. One nickname for a policeman is "copper" (which is where we get the word "cop." Now, in addition to resembling the word "aurora," "auror" also looks like the Latin word "aurum," which means "gold." So just as a Muggle policeman is a "copper," a wizarding policeman is an Auror--"pure gold." This has probably been mentioned before, but: "Alastor" is a form of "Alastair," which is a Gaelic form of "Alexander." All three names mean "defender of mankind" or "helper and defender of man." "Albus" is pure Latin. It's the adjective meaning "white." "farquarson2003" From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Fri Jun 11 03:00:28 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:00:28 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New thoughts on Occlumency Message-ID: <7E9BB8D2-BB53-11D8-B5A4-000A95E19732@optusnet.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 100738 Potioncat wrote: > Next idea. Occlumency is an obscure branch of magic. You wouldn't > advertise your abiltiy. How does Lupin know that Snape is so good > at it? At least twice he's praised Snape to Harry. Once when he > talks about his Potion making skills and once with the comment about > Occlumency. Is this good Lupin trying to get Harry to see Snape > differently? Or is this ESE!Lupin up to no good? Uhh... Lupin and Snape are in the OotP? Perhaps they might all know what special abilities each other might have so that they can be aware of how they all might serve the purpose of the order better? Or Lupin can do occlumency as well and read Snape's mind. Or not. Bill From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jun 11 03:59:34 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:59:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <6b.2ba992b9.2dfa8826@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100739 In a message dated 6/10/04 8:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com writes: > Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy goes way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held thoughts Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on the off chance that they might contain the information he wants so badly about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he wanted to know. Serves him right.< Snape left the Pensieve where Harry could get to it, also Snape showed Harry that he put his thoughts into it. To someone like Harry who is curious and will go to seek information wherever he can find it, to do that stuff in front of him was like waving a blanket in front of a bull. Snape should not have left the Pensieve where Harry could get to it and shouldn't have put his thoughts into it while Harry was there. Snape is an adult. Batchevra ( who finds Snape fascinating but knows that he has too much anger left from the days that he was a student at Hogwarts) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 04:07:01 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:07:01 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100740 > > How about by stealing Snape's supplies to brew illegal potions, > splashing engorgement potion on half the class in the process? And > Harry's flagrant disregard for rules is something that concerns even > DD, not to mention the kid's smart mouth. Basically the two of them > got off to a bad start, (which was Snape's fault) and went downhill > from there. Let's see. Brew an illegal potion, which he did trying to find the Heir of Slytherin, something Snape was unable to do. vs. Hold an adolescent grudge against a kid who barely remembers his father, let alone learned anything from him. When will someone deal with the fact that Snape is 20-25 years OLDER than Harry and is in a position of authority, meaning he's supposed to behave better. Adults are supposed to behave better than children. Bottom line. Maybe Snape just needs to grow up. > > Ah, but it wasn't just Quirrell was it? Voldy is there inside Q - > and I've wondered for some time how SS explained that away. Actually, it never really has. One of the major holes I've seen in SS/PS is that Snape apparently was on to Quirrell pretty early on and Quirrell was allowed not only to walk around, but to teach. Quirrell should have been locked up somewhere while D-Dore tried to figure out a way to separate the two. Unless Snape kept it to himself out of ego, because HE wanted to be the one to save Harry. No, our man Snape wouldn't do anything so base and petty, would he? > The point is *Snape* doesn't know Harry's in no danger! (nor do > Harry, Hermione and Ron) he goes into the Shrieking Shack believing > he will be at imminent risk from a desperate outlaw wizard and his > accomplice. Intent counts for something here. Actually, I believe he goes into the Shrieking Shack wanting to capture Sirius Black. Of course, Snape is so arrogant that he believes Sirius and Lupin are working together AND that he can defeat the both of them. Perhaps Snape should have notified Dumbledore that he had proof Sirius and Lupin were together? Hm? That would be the smart thing. And while we're on the subject, Sirius saved unconscious Snape from Lupin Wolf by turning into a dog and tussling with Lupin. Harry saved unconscious Snape from the dementors. So, at worst, let's call them even. At best, Snape owes Harry one. > > Am I missing another time? > > As a matter of fact yes. You are forgetting that Snape goes into > the Dark Forest to search for Harry and co. when they don't return to the school - unaware that they have gone off to rescue Sirius. If > that isn't risking his life I don't know what is. Actually, D-Dore says he intended to search the Forest. I don't credit Snape for much in OoP, because we know he is under the orders of D-Dore. That has to be taken into account. Snape knows that if he lets Harry get killed, D-Dore will be royally upset. > > Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of > his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy goes way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held thoughts Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on the off chance that they might contain the information he wants so badly about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he wanted to know. Serves him right. > We're done. I left this list once before because I found a disgusting and disturbing hatred for Harry Potter amongst many of the posters. I'm sorry to see nothing much has changed. > The fact is Snape could have gone on teaching Harry occlumency til the cows came home and it would have done not a lick of good. Harry didn't want to close his mind to Voldy - he wanted to know what was behind the door. No number of classes would have changed that. > > It all comes back to Harry I'm afraid. Keep saying that. Maybe it'll come true, even. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 04:09:00 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:09:00 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <6b.2ba992b9.2dfa8826@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/10/04 8:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rowena_grunnionffitch at y... writes: > > > Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of > his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy goes > way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held thoughts > Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on the off > chance that they might contain the information he wants so badly > about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he wanted to > know. Serves him right.< > > Snape left the Pensieve where Harry could get to it, also Snape showed Harry > that he put his thoughts into it. To someone like Harry who is curious and > will go to seek information wherever he can find it, to do that stuff in front of > him was like waving a blanket in front of a bull. Snape should not have left > the Pensieve where Harry could get to it and shouldn't have put his thoughts > into it while Harry was there. Snape is an adult. Apparently, Snape doesn't have to be an adult. He can wallow in self- pity, petty grudges, failures, and immature behavior and it will be written off as "complex." But let a 15-year-old like Harry make a mistake and that's just heinous! Might have been nice had Snape given Harry, whose got some memories of his own that are pretty awful, the same chance to remove some before they began, hm? Darrin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 04:25:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:25:08 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > Let's see. > > Brew an illegal potion, which he did trying to find the Heir of > Slytherin, something Snape was unable to do. > > vs. > > Hold an adolescent grudge against a kid who barely remembers his > father, let alone learned anything from him. > > When will someone deal with the fact that Snape is 20-25 years OLDER > than Harry and is in a position of authority, meaning he's supposed > to behave better. > > Adults are supposed to behave better than children. Bottom line. > > Maybe Snape just needs to grow up. LOL, Darrin! Oh, yes. He does need to grow up, but unfortunately I can see less and less the possibility of that happening > > Rowena earlier: > > Glad that Harry has seen one of the most humiliating moments of > > his life? I don't think so. Harry's violation of Snape's privacy > goes way beyond a mere 'screw up'. Harry knew the pensieve held > thoughts Snape didn't want him to see, he deliberately intruded on > the off chance that they might contain the information he wants so > badly about the DoM and, like eavesdroppers, learned more than he > wanted to know. Serves him right. > > Darrin: > We're done. I left this list once before because I found a disgusting > and disturbing hatred for Harry Potter amongst many of the posters. > I'm sorry to see nothing much has changed. > Alla: Darrin, I love your posts, especially because I agree with the majority of the points you make, but I want to ask you the same question, I asked another poster earlier. Why, why, why do you find the hatred of Harry Potter to be disturbing? I am genuinely curious. If poster states that he/she loves/hates the character to me it says absolutely nothing about the poster except his/her literary preferences. Just as much I am entitled to scream till my face is blue how much I hate what Snape does to the children he teaches, people who hate Harry entitled to do the same. :o) Why is it disturbing? Rowena earlier: > > The fact is Snape could have gone on teaching Harry occlumency > til the cows came home and it would have done not a lick of good. > Harry didn't want to close his mind to Voldy - he wanted to know what > was behind the door. No number of classes would have changed that. > > > > It all comes back to Harry I'm afraid. > Darrin: > Keep saying that. Maybe it'll come true, even. > Alla: LOL! From msmerymac at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 04:48:49 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:48:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius -- Romantic Interests? (Re: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100743 > "nmjenson" wrote: > > > Sirius is not gay! Come on guys .... he had a lot on his mind > after > > > graduation besides dating ... Lord Voldemort. In some cases, like > > > the examination room, perhaps Sirius is oblivious to his > > > admirers ... which is completely possible. > >Brenda: > Yes, I agree with you, I think he had too much in his mind to worry > about girls, namely the most-evil-wizard coming after his Godson ... > and he spent most of his 20's in Azkaban, poor guy. Although some of > popular 15-year-old boys do think about dating I believe? Luckie: (Haven't been around for a few days - new job and all - so I'm trying desperately to catch up) Does Sirius seem like the type to worry? True, he worried about Harry's safety in GoF and OotP, but that was after 12 years in Azkaban showed him the worst side of life and death, after his bes friend and wife we killed and no longer able to take care of thier son, and after Voldemort set a vendetta against Harry. At the age of 15 Sirius had no yet planned the "Trick" on Snape. He doesn't seem like someone who would think about consequences. This is a boy who discovered how to become an animagus so he could hang out with his friend and go on adventures. Remember: "The risk is what would have made it fun for James." And for Sirius too, no doubt. I don't think he had much pressing on his mind when he was 15. In fact, he seemed like the type to try to balance more than one girlfriend at a time - without telling any of them, of course. It's a risk, you know. ;-) I think the scene in the pensieve may have hinted that: 1) Sirius was completely ignorant of his good looks, and just as dumb as Harry when it came to girls, or 2) So many girls were after him it was no longer fun. He's a guy who likes the chase, and if girls are going to make it too easy, who needs that? ~ Luckie From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 11 04:52:22 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:52:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius -- Romantic Interests? (Re: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily?) References: Message-ID: <010301c44f6f$e2729220$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100744 > I think the scene in the pensieve may have hinted that: 1) Sirius > was completely ignorant of his good looks, and just as dumb as Harry > when it came to girls, or 2) So many girls were after him it was no > longer fun. He's a guy who likes the chase, and if girls are going > to make it too easy, who needs that? > > ~ Luckie > Let me add to that: 3) He might've not been interested in that girl in particular; 4) he was already dating someone and not interested in other girls at the time. Of course in my opinion, there's also 5) it's a memory with Snape's bias on it and he could have the jealous belief that every single girl in the school was after Sirius while he was too arrogant to notice. Alina. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 11 04:53:56 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:53:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <474126F8.4A27D182.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100745 Darrin: > Apparently, Snape doesn't have to be an adult. He can wallow in self- > pity, petty grudges, failures, and immature behavior and it will be > written off as "complex." > > But let a 15-year-old like Harry make a mistake and that's just > heinous! > > Might have been nice had Snape given Harry, whose got some memories > of his own that are pretty awful, the same chance to remove > some > before they began, hm? Oryomai: First off, hiya Darrin! It's been a while! *g* Now, back to Harry Potter! Why does everyone underestimate teenagers? Why does the fact that Harry's 15 give him the right to act like a little berk? (Wow...I just used berk in a sentence...) Severus is most definitely a giant git. (Wow...git...) And everyone jumps down his throad when he does something wrong. But for some reason, every time Harry does something bad, it's "Harry is 15! Severus isn't 15!" What does age have to do with it? Age is no excuse AT ALL. Especially when you know what Harry knows. Severus knows too, but isn't Harry our hero? (That be sarcasm...I'm not a big Harry fan at all...) It's well established that Severus cannot grow up. He needs a psychiatrist and some therapy. Look at his situation, he was tormented by people in his youth and he can't get over it -- happens to lots of people. I graduated high school last week, and I still hate peoplel who pulled their own prank on me in fifth grade. The weak cannot take things like that. When Severus went on his rant about people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, IMO, that was about him. Actually, I believe we have yet to meet a real adult in the HP series. Oryomai From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jun 11 05:08:00 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:08:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. ... Message-ID: <9d.498466e0.2dfa9830@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100746 In a message dated 6/9/04 10:04:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gorda_ad at hotmail.com writes: >This isn't how i had thought that scenario would go. I thought Harry would go back, thinking he could somehow save his parents, then get there and realize he has to cause things to happen as they already did, then come back in time to fight Lord Thingy with some new insight that the Time-traveling has given him. But what that insight might be, only God (and JKR) knows... Gorda< I have speculated that if there is a time turning thing in what happened at Godric's Hollow, it was Voldemort who went back in time to kill Harry before he grows up, only since he has Harry's blood inside of him, and Harry has proven compassionate, it is Voldemort who fails in the curse. In POA, Pettigrew reminds Harry of a baby, in OOTP the DE in the DOM, his head becomes a baby's and then goes back to being a grown up. Yet Harry listens to Hermione and does nothing to that DE. Also, one of the first lines that we hear from McGonagall, is why couldn't Voldemort kill a baby? Pure speculation and not sure how it will be played out. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msmerymac at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 05:27:08 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:27:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100747 > > Because Petunia now has no home, Harry will no longer have the > protection from VM. DD states, "You only need return there once a > year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt > you." If Petunia had another home of her own, then yes, Harry could > go there and be protected. My theory is that Petunia won't, so the > summer before Harry's 7th year will be an interesting one to say the > least. He will have no safe house, no place of absolute refuge. Just > in time for all heck to break loose. > Luckie: I was under the impression that wherever Harry's mother's blood dwelled, that is where he would be protected. Kind of like a home is where the heart is... or blood is. So if Petunia was with the Weasleys, Harry would simply gave to return to the Burrow to reinstate his protection. ~Luckie, who definitely thinks there is more to Petunia than meets the eye, but thinks Dudders is a big, dumb muggle. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 05:53:52 2004 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:53:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100748 > Luckie: > I was under the impression that wherever Harry's mother's blood > dwelled, that is where he would be protected. Kind of like a home is > where the heart is... or blood is. So if Petunia was with the > Weasleys, Harry would simply gave to return to the Burrow to > reinstate his protection. > I thought about that, but to me the passage means something different. Here's the whole quote (OotP, US Hardback, pg 836): "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can STILL CALL IT HOME, there he cannot hurt you. Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that ALLOWING YOU HOUSEROOM may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (emphasis mine) I read this as Petunia has to be the one offering, not just that he lives in the same place as she does. If Dudders and Petunia had to room at the Weasleys, then it wouldn't be Petunia's call to allow Harry to stay, it would be Molly's. Like I said before, if Petunia gets a new place and allows Harry to live there during the summer, then yes, the protection would still be in effect. I think she'll be on the run, tho, without a home that's wholly hers. At that point, Harry honestly has no place to call home, so the protection won't work. bowlwoman From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 11 06:19:08 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:19:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: WW Technology V Muggle Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100749 | From: timjones002000 | Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:09 AM | | stephenflynn001 wrote: | > I was looking through some back postings and I saw one on | > the above topic and I do believe that WW technology is better | > than Muggle technology. Simply put why fix something that | > is not broken. There is less risk to an individual and to | > the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on this? | [Tim]: | I would disagree with this. Surely, the advances that have been made | by muggles have outsripped anything that the ww has to offer. Based | on the books ww technology has not advanced in many a year while | muggle technology has come on in leaps and bounds especially in the | past 100 years. Space exploration is a prime example. Well, I'd love to know more about the Wizarding Wireless Network. Let's see: They've got elevators/lifts (MoM); They've got automated receptionists (MoM); They've got flying memos (MoM, which beats mail shoots and sorters); They've got security scanners (MoM Security Desk); They've got several forms of transportation--portkeys, floo powder, apparation, broomsticks...no traffic jams; :-) They have radio (That Wizarding Wireless Network). Now, of course, all of these things are magically controlled, but it is their form of technology. My thinking is that they will come up with more stuff as need requires. Is it not true that, in time of war, many technological advancements are made which then carry over to the everyday world? So, does the possibility not exist that the same principles apply to the wizarding world? I'm sure we haven't seen everything in the Department of Mysteries...things which may be under development and will possibly come out as the need for them requires. Now, as far as Wizard Vs. Muggle...which is better? I can't help but think that maybe some of the stuff was based on muggle tech...loosely, perhaps. But, let's say, a wizard saw something he/she thought was cool and decided to work on the same idea in a more magical way. Will wizards get into space? Perhaps they already have; we just don't know about it yet. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From strawberry at jamm.com Fri Jun 11 06:01:49 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:01:49 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain (C. Rosycross in jeans) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" wrote: [...snip...] > I want to throw another ingredient into the complicated soup of > Cain's sign and original sin. > > Please note that Harry LIBERATES a serpent. The first thing he does > as a conscious person, at the age of 10, is to set the snake in the > zoo free! Except that setting the serpent at the zoo free isn't Harry's first act of wizadry, nor is it his first conscious act of Wizardry. Examples of earlier "unconscious" wizardry include making his hair grow overnight and shrinking an ugly, too-large, hand-me-down jumper/sweater of Duddly's that he didn't want to wear. His first conscious act of wizardry, of course, didn't occur until after he arrived at Hogwarts. Jenni A.M. Merrifield (HPFGU newbie - please be forgiving :-)) From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 05:49:28 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611054928.80477.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100751 "troublenbass" wrote: > > How do you think everyone did on their OWLS? Harry had > > much to worry about - do you think he failed anything? > > What do you think his classes will be in year 6? > Alora Commented: > I'm thinking no one but Hermione did well on the Astronomy > final, because everyone was so upset by what was going on > down at Hagrid's at the time. It's a given that Harry > probably did well on the DADA test. I think it's also a given that he failed, utterly and completely, his History of Magic exam, as that was his last exam, and he was stuggling with it and the lack of sleep. And of course, during it Voldy sends the image that Sirius is in trouble. That would be my vote for one he failed. I do wonder if the examiners were going to make any allowances for what happened during the Astronomy exam, as even the Test Giver was distracted by what happened to Hagrid and Minerva. But it's also a good possibility that Harry failed that one. I think, for the most part, he would have done very well on the rest of the exams, and a point was made that potions was easier to do without Snape swooping around and breathing down people's neck. ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 06:30:16 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:30:16 -0000 Subject: OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alora" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" > wrote: > > I have a random and simple question. How do you think everyone did > on their > > OWLS? Harry had much to worry about - do you think he failed > anything? > > What do you think his classes will be in year 6? > > > > I apologize if we have talked about this already. > > > I've wondered about this one myself. I'm thinking no one but > Hermione did well on the Astronomy final, because everyone was so > upset by what was going on down at Hagrid's at the time. It's a > given that Harry probably did well on the DADA test. I wonder if > anyone else has any ideas... > > Alora Jasons guesses DADA....O Potions A Transfiguration..A Charms..E Divination..D/A Astronomy..D CoMC..0 Herbology..E Harry will get 6 O.W.L.s (7 if the tester knows Seeing is rare and Harry atleast knows the theories. If thats the case he'll get an 'acceptable') Hermione 10... Assuming she is taking 10 classes Ron 4/5 Neville 4 Am i close? Way off? From strawberry at jamm.com Fri Jun 11 05:15:49 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:15:49 -0000 Subject: Is there anyone in that year who wasn't in love with Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100753 "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I'm sure Lily Evans was a delightful and loveable girl. James > certainly fell in love with her, Snape possibly did (don't go > along with that myself, but a lot a people do) and now Lupin is > suggested as another who fell under her spell. I have not so far > heard it suggested that Sirius was another undeclared lover and > am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how he felt about Lily. Hmm... Your subject and comments made my mind suddenly whir... Lily's Wand was "very good for charms" and charms, according to the Hp lexicon, "are a type of magic spell concerned with enchanting an object to behave in a way that isn't normal for that object". I wonder if she might have surreptitiously used her wand on several of the male members of her year... Jenni A.M. Merrifield (HPFGU Newbie -- please be forgiving :-)) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 04:49:16 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:49:16 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: <20040610223704.75958.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100754 >>> bamf! wrote: (I don't think that's your name, my apoligies) > Also - it would fit the last few titles of books: > Chamber OF Secrets > Prizoner OF Azkaban > Goblet OF Fire > Order OF the Pheonix > > Hand OF Glory > > Yes, that's total speculation on my part, but I half > wonder if it's not the title of the next book... <<< Bren: I also read it in Greg's Preview from Yahoo! Movies site that... "The British tabloid newspaper The Sun reported earlier this month that Warner Bros. has registered two titles that could be the titles of the sixth and seventh novels (and therefore, the sixth and seventh movies). The thing to remember, of course, is that the titles could be red herrings made up by Warner Bros. to throw people off. If they're real, however, the titles are 'Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt' and 'Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur.' " Not that I believe it, no, I don't think JKR has even picked the title for 6th book yet (so I hear), but just something to think about, since we all love speculating what is yet to come... Bren, who is starting to get worried that she has read most of the surprises coming up in next installments, thanks to about 100 posts a day. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 06:32:59 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:32:59 -0000 Subject: OWLS In-Reply-To: <20040611054928.80477.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > > > Alora Commented: > > I'm thinking no one but Hermione did well on the Astronomy > > final, because everyone was so upset by what was going on > > down at Hagrid's at the time. It's a given that Harry > > probably did well on the DADA test. > > > I think it's also a given that he failed, utterly and > completely, his History of Magic exam, as that was his > last exam, and he was stuggling with it and the lack > of sleep. And of course, during it Voldy sends the > image that Sirius is in trouble. That would be my vote > for one he failed. > > ta! > bamf! Jason again I left out History of Magic! But I'll stick with my numbers for the trio since im sure atleast Harry failed but probably Ron too. Only Hermy passed that one im afraid! > From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 04:37:13 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:37:13 -0000 Subject: Weasley's full name? (was Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100756 Hi guys, As much as I enjoy the possibly Camelot connection to the Weasley family, I was wondering, where did you find out their full names? I don't think it was in the book, so it must be from an online-source, but I can't find it? I did think about the possibility of Arthur becoming the Minister of Magic himself (as a sort of fantasy, more or less), but after reading posts about the Camelot connection maybe it *is* possible! The Weasleys deserve it! Oh, by the way, why do you think they are so poor? I mean, after all, Arthur is the *Head* of Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Department... Wouldn't he get paid at least a respectful amount? I don't think they have much gold in their vault (if they have any left)...? Bren From verysherryk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 04:36:57 2004 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (Sheryl Klingbeil) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611043657.99899.qmail@web60208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100757 "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: In GOF, when the smooke forms come out of LV's wand, JKR writes "Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. "Your father's coming...' she said quietly, 'Hold on for your father[...]'" (GOF 667). Looks like Harry's dad is indeed dead. Also, I don't think Harry went back and time and is the person who held off LV. Whoever held him off would be dead, as LV was trying to kill Harry and fulfill the prophesy, he probably wouldn't use stunners in that case. So therefore, whoever held him off would have died before Lily and would have come out of the wand after her. That person was James, IMO. Sherry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 04:18:20 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:18:20 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100758 >>> Janelle: > "Eyes as green as a fresh-pickled toad, > Hair as dark as a black board, > I wish he were mine, he's really divine, > The hero who conquered the dark lord" > (sorry, might not be exact, don't have my book with me) > > Does that really sound like something that Ginny Weasley would > write? I don't think it does. > So the question is, who did send that valentine? I have a theory. > What if it was Luna? 'fresh-pickled toads'? come on, who else is so quirky that they would consider this to be appropriate for a love poem? <<< Bren: I am glad that you pointed this out. At first I didn't believe it was Ginny either, but I think there was something later in the book (or series) that led me to believe it was Ginny. I think it might have been the beginning of later books where JKR makes a familiar character-introduction with a bit of history. Or it could have been when Ginny seemed embarrassed and I automatically interpreted it as the reason for sending him a Valentine song. But yeah, I can definitely Luna using a phrase like "fresh-pickled toads" in a love poem, she is the loony one after all. From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Fri Jun 11 04:16:51 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:16:51 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: <20040610223704.75958.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040610223704.75958.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2A22D41E-BB5E-11D8-B5A4-000A95E19732@optusnet.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 100759 On 11/06/2004, at 8:37 AM, Metylda wrote: > > I'm wondering if it's not the Hand of Glory. It was > one of those things that stood out, especially with > Draco's interest in it. > > Also - it would fit the last few titles of books: > Chamber OF Secrets > Prizoner OF Azkaban > Goblet OF Fire > Order OF the Pheonix Or it could just be a convention like "Nancy Drew & The Mystery of The (mysterious thing)" or "The Hardy Boys and (Something)" or "Biggles (verbs) a/the (noun)" Bill From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 06:39:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:39:13 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: <20040610223704.75958.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > I'm wondering if it's not the Hand of Glory. It was > Also - it would fit the last few titles of books: > Chamber OF Secrets > Prizoner OF Azkaban > Goblet OF Fire > Order OF the Pheonix > > Hand OF Glory > > Yes, that's total speculation on my part, but I half > wonder if it's not the title of the next book... Geoff: Yes, but so would.. Heir OF Gryffindor Minister OF Magic ;-) From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 11 06:46:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:46:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100761 I always thought it was interesting how/why Harry ended up in Knockturn Alley...why? And who does he see but Draco. Also interesting is that awful, ugly Hand Of Glory that Draco was interested in. Might it come back again in a future book? But I am niggled about why Harry ended up in Knockturn...was it Providence, so to speak? Hmmm..... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 06:51:28 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:51:28 -0000 Subject: Another name clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100762 Last week, I was on holiday in North Yorkshire. This is a geological area renowned for its limestone which creates a huge number of caves and potholes. So what? Well, I was staying in Ingleton and, while studying the large scale OS map of the area, my eye lighted casually on an area about three miles from where I was staying and,to my great surprise, I found myself looking at "Boggarts Roaring Holes", a series of pot holes at approximate Grid Reference SD 727728. The thought crossed my mind that JKR collects name sources from a wide range of sources. If there something here that we should know? From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 03:50:32 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "little hint" in Book 2 / Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611035032.39255.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100763 kljohnson7868 wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. Personally, I am rooting for the freshly caught Cornish Pixies!! bowlwoman wrote: > I think there's going to be an attack at Privet Drive this summer. > And Vernon will die. > There will be an attack on the Dursley home during the summer by the > Voldemort camp. VM will know where to strike because the of the information > provided from the dementors that Umbridge sent in OotP. During this attack, > Vernon will die. We will discover that Dudley is a wizard, but DD and Petunia > were keeping it a secret for 16 years. > > I also think Dudley will do magic because of the Dementors scene in OotP. It > was never stated if Dudley could SEE the dementors, and I think that's a very > important omission on JKR's part. The fact that Dudley COULD describe > the effects leads me to believe he's a wizard incognito. I have thought a bit along these same lines. Suppose the Dursleys have to finally admit that Harry is not the loser they always tried to make him feel he was. Also, since JKR states that someone will do magic late, could it actually be Dudley that gets some tutoring and not Harry. He will need to be able to defend himself. Can you see Dudley at Hogwarts? Talk about out of his element!! Where would the sorting hat place him? Also, the dementors make you relive your worst memory. What was Dudley's? My bet is the pig tail - but then there is the ton-tounge toffees!! moonmyyst (who loves this idea!!) From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Fri Jun 11 06:58:13 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:58:13 -0000 Subject: In the End, Voldemort Got What He Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100764 Jen Reese wrote: > It just struck me that Voldemort got exactly what he wanted at the > end of OOTP. > Suddenly, the Daily Prophet is reporting that LV infiltrated the > MOM & the DE's are back as faithful servants; Fudge has spent a year > denying LV's existence and wasting precious time; the Dementors left > Azkaban and are in league with LV. > > And to top it all off, members of the Order spent the entire YEAR > making false moves, baiting and fighting with each other, and > generally tearing down what they built up in the First War. > > Now Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore, he's enraged at Snape and > grief-stricken by the loss of Sirius--not exactly what you want from > the *only* person with the Power to defeat LV. > > He has never been in a better position to crush the WW. And the > Order, as the only group with a chance to stop him, has never been in > a *worse* position. Paul: Right. Quite right. It is logical. After all LV is in offence. He has the advantage of the moves while the others are simply waiting and reacting. If we add the fact the the minister of magic is too little for his rank we can expect that LV will play in offence for a long long time. It is a win - win situation for LV. From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri Jun 11 07:09:44 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:09:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another name clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100765 Geoff Bannister said: Well, I was staying in Ingleton and, while studying the large scale OS map of the area, my eye lighted casually on an area about three miles from where I was staying and,to my great surprise, I found myself looking at "Boggarts Roaring Holes", a series of pot holes at approximate Grid Reference SD 727728. The thought crossed my mind that JKR collects name sources from a wide range of sources. If there something here that we should know? Lady Macbeth replied: Possibly - but boggarts actually ARE creatures from myth/legend. I'm guessing the "Boggarts Roaring Holes" were named for the legendary creature, the same as Jo's boggarts are. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! AND WE DON'T SCAN YOUR MAIL! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 07:05:01 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:05:01 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <474126F8.4A27D182.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100766 I have been reading this thread with great enthusiasm (as I myself posted a very long message on similar issue), however, it seems to me that every post is coming to the same conclusion now. Harry is a teenager with a burden much heavier than a normal adult can handle. But he still is a teenager, so he makes the same mistakes that teenagers make as part of their growing-up phase. Snape is an adult with traumatizing past. He had been tormented and abused as a child, and he will bear that scar for a very long time. True, according to Hunter & Kilstrom's prospective-designed studies on the issue of inter-generational transmission, only 18% of "abused" became "abuser" ("Breaking the cycle in abusive families." American Journal of Psychiatry. 1979 Oct;136(10):1320-2). Hunter & Kilstrom also discuss the escape-mechanisms employed by the remaining 82% - they are: " - reliance on a broad network of resources - a degree of self-differentiation - an attitude of realistic optimism - and the ability to marshall extra resources " (also from the Abstract of "Breaking the cycle in abusive families") And I cannot place Snape under these categories, except for the 'degree of self-differentiation' one (which I interpret as posessing competence and superior problem-solving ability). Maybe Snape turned to Dark Arts in order to cope with his abuse? My PSY100 notes also state that most of seriously-abused children who developed resiliency tend to be attractive females - Snape?!?! Now THAT is a scary thought (no offence to Alan Rickman, who portrays much more attractive Snape than the books IMO) >>> Oryomai: It's well established that Severus cannot grow up. He needs a psychiatrist and some therapy. Look at his situation, he was tormented by people in his youth and he can't get over it -- happens to lots of people. <<< YEs, Snape needs to grow up, he's not the weak, tormented abused child anymore. Or is he? This is one of the most fundamental attributes to the character Snape, and I cannot blame him for his *certain* actions (especially the ones involving the Occlumency lessons). Just like how I don't blame HArry for feeling that no one can save the world except for him. But I like Snape much better, so I'm willing to defend him more than defending HArry ;P. >>> Oryomai: Why does everyone underestimate teenagers? Why does the fact that Harry's 15 give him the right to act like a little berk? But for some reason, every time Harry does something bad, it's "Harry is 15! Severus isn't 15!" What does age have to do with it? Age is no excuse AT ALL. Especially when you know what Harry knows. Severus knows too, but isn't Harry our hero? (That be sarcasm...I'm not a big Harry fan at all...) <<< I completely agree with you. Especially since Harry WANTED to be treated like an adult so badly. And I am not a big Harry fan either, he's too obssessed with being righteous and heroic. >>> Oryomai: Actually, I believe we have yet to meet a real adult in the HP series. <<< I'd say Dumbledore is a real adult? He's willing to give people second chance, doesn't get winded up in personal emotion too much, knows when someone is lying to him and persuades them to be truthful... And I don't think DD was *stupid* in telling HArry about the prophecy at the end of OoP (I believe Alla said "Dumbledore's stupidity" in earlier post? It made me jump out of my seat). As I elaborated in my earlier post (called "Who's to Blame for Sirius' Death"), I think VM would have penetrated HArry's mind and extract the content of prophecy if DD had told him before. At least, this way, VM still hasn't acquired the "stealth weapon". I can put McGonagall in this list as well, she has my utmost respect. 'It turns the other way' hahaha. Who knows, maybe Nicholas Flamel is mature as well, after all, he's had more than 600 years to mature! Brenda, who thought she was getting real tired of "Who is the adult" debate and yet put more into it. From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 07:54:12 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:54:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] alastor and albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611075412.96903.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100767 Udderpd here According to my OED borealis is Latin for northen Hope this helps Udder PenDragon drcarole71 wrote: I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but Alastor and Albus both begin with Al... Does anyone know if the word Auror exists in English? Is it similar to aurora, as in aurora borealis? If so, does it mean "light", or does "borealis" mean light? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jun 11 08:09:58 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:09:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100768 > > Luckie: > > I was under the impression that wherever Harry's mother's blood > > dwelled, that is where he would be protected. Kind of like a home is > > where the heart is... or blood is. So if Petunia was with the > > Weasleys, Harry would simply gave to return to the Burrow to > > reinstate his protection. > > > ---------------------------- bowlwoman: > I thought about that, but to me the passage means something > different. > > Here's the whole quote (OotP, US Hardback, pg 836): > > "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood > dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed > her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became > your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as > you can STILL CALL IT HOME, there he cannot hurt you. Your aunt > knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with > you, on her doorstep. She knows that ALLOWING YOU HOUSEROOM may well > have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (emphasis mine) > > I read this as Petunia has to be the one offering, not just that he > lives in the same place as she does. If Dudders and Petunia had to > room at the Weasleys, then it wouldn't be Petunia's call to allow > Harry to stay, it would be Molly's. > > Like I said before, if Petunia gets a new place and allows Harry to > live there during the summer, then yes, the protection would still be > in effect. I think she'll be on the run, tho, without a home that's > wholly hers. At that point, Harry honestly has no place to call > home, so the protection won't work. >------------------ Hmm, I don't know about this. I think I agree with Luckie. I think even if Petunia was living in a box on the street, if Harry was there with her and that's all they had as a "home" the protection would still be invoked. I also think, if it came down to this, that Harry's stash of gold might put him in the position to make Petunia live off of him for while. Arya From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 11 08:13:02 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:13:02 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Ally: > snip > > But if one character was clearly right in, e.g. the occlumency > situation/Sirius' death, it would mean JKR wasn't that good of a > writer to begin with. What makes these scenes great is that every > character messes up in a way that is totally consistent with that > character's flaws - Snape flips out, DD is too protective of Harry > and optimistic about Snape, Sirius ignores Kreacher and acts > impetuously and Harry betrays Snape by looking into the pensieve - > and it all comes together into a tragic event. > > This is what good writing does - it doesn't judge. Unfortunately, > most readers do not follow their writer's example. Er NO! JKR most definitely judges. She clearly believes in good and bad, right and wrong, dear god that's what these books are about!!!! BUT she is non judgemental i.e. has a very poor view of ill informed judgement and delusions of superiority (Pride and Prejudice! anyone). (BTW Ally I have a feeling this is actually what you mean, but I believe the distinction is critical.) I have to laugh when I see threads with 'blame' in them because what JKR is really trying to say seems to me to be that blame itself is very destructive, it is not a force for good. Actions must be judged and dealt with but passing judgement on another being is not for us. No matter what our justification, prior abuse, betrayal, destructive actions with lethal results, we cannot ever be the moral authority over someone else. When Harry meets Voldy he *must* understand he is not better, more justified, greater than his enemy in anything other than the choices he makes. Bad actions are *bad* actions regardless of the motivation. To beat evil you have to act good, you cannot simply *be* good. Regards Jo From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 08:11:39 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:11:39 -0000 Subject: Previous Spoilers for Book 5? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100770 Hi guys, I have been reading many of the speculations for the remaining books, and since most of them have good canon (I think), they all seem plausible. I especially like the ideas of: 1. Harry going back to Godric Hallow -- Vivian, are you sure your dream was just a 'dream'? (hoping to sound like Hermione!) 2. ESE! Lupin is supporter for VM (I don't want to believe it, but anything is possible, after all, we've seen *dead* people coming back) 3. Attack on Privet Drive!! AS intrigued I am about these, I'm also starting to feel that by the time Book 6 comes out, there will be no more major surprises left for me! Of course I trust JKR's ability to pull of amazing stunts and twists... So I was wondering, which speculations/theories about Book 5 came true? You guys had to wait at least 3 years for OoP, I'm sure there were numerous spoilers, theories and debates. And I don't know how to even start reading +20,000 of posts inbetween... Apologies for totally OT (and lazy) post [shrugs] Brenda From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Fri Jun 11 08:36:34 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:36:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040611035032.39255.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100771 > bowlwoman wrote: > > There will be an attack on the Dursley home during the summer > > by the Voldemort camp. We will discover that Dudley is > > a wizard, but DD and Petunia were keeping it a secret for 16 > > years. > > > > I also think Dudley will do magic because of the Dementors scene > > in OotP. It was never stated if Dudley could SEE the dementors, > > and I think that's a very important omission on JKR's part. > > The fact that Dudley COULD describe the effects leads me to believe > > he's a wizard incognito. > moonmyyst wrote: > I have thought a bit along these same lines. Suppose the Dursleys > have to finally admit that Harry is not the loser they always tried > to make him feel he was. Also, since JKR states that someone will > do magic late, could it actually be Dudley that gets some tutoring > and not Harry. Paul: Hello friends. Some thoughts: 1) If Dudley were a wizard he would be able to see the Dementors. Instead he run directly to one of them. A most potent candidate to become full active wizard is Hagrid. 2) Dursleys to admit Harry is not a loser. I think that this would happen if LV proved a misunderstood person that had the best interest of the Wizard World in his mind. 3) Attack in privet street. A massive blow against the whole suburb with DE attacking everyone. It will be a very interesting start for the book 6. As for the casualties only God and JKR knows. From aliaware at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 08:49:06 2004 From: aliaware at yahoo.com (Alia) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:49:06 -0000 Subject: Weasley's full name? (was Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100772 "Brenda" wrote: > As much as I enjoy the possibly Camelot connection to the Weasley > family, I was wondering, where did you find out their full names? I > don't think it was in the book, so it must be from an online- source, > but I can't find it? Well, there are a few tidbits on http://www.jkrowling.com in the "Extra Stuff" section. There, she tells us about Molly Weasley nee Prewett, and Ginevra (Ginny) Weasley. You can also go to http://www.mugglenet.com and look up JKR's chat transcripts and interviews. > Oh, by the way, why do you think they are so poor? I mean, after > all, Arthur is the *Head* of Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Department... > Wouldn't he get paid at least a respectful amount? I don't think > they have much gold in their vault (if they have any left)...? Well, I think that's changed, now that Fred and George's joke shop is doing well. I was thinking that a) Misuse of Muggle Artifacts was a department that meant much to the Ministry and b) even if he was getting paid a "respectful" amount, he still had to support six (we can count out Gred and Forge now) people. And I personally think that JKR was illustrating how people don't have to be wealthy to be rich in other things. They're poor, yeah, but the Weasleys are some of the best people to know. Brave, loyal, loving, and smart. And, don't you think that Arthur will be rewarded for all his hard work? *coughMinisterofMagiccough* Alia, who thinks the world of Ronald Bilius Weasley, AND is thinking about naming one of her future children Ginevra From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 09:52:32 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:52:32 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100773 Batchevra wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > > bowlwoman wrote: > > > There will be an attack on the Dursley home during the summer > > > by the Voldemort camp. We will discover that Dudley is > > > a wizard, but DD and Petunia were keeping it a secret for 16 > > > years. Paul wrote: > 3) Attack in privet street. A massive blow against the whole suburb > with DE attacking everyone. It will be a very interesting start for the book 6. As for the casualties only God and JKR knows. Carolyn: JKR said on her website that the opening scenes of Book 6 have been written for 13 years, and that she has tried them out in various books up to now, but has finally settled on using them in this book. She has also said elsewhere that Vernon is her most disliked character, which many people found surprising, given the range of possible candidates. *If* these opening scenes are about an attack on Privet Drive, I think this would fit in a number of ways. Firstly, there is a great deal of Privet Drive explanation in PS/SS, which sets the scene about Harry and how he came to be there. I could well imagine that in earlier drafts, his removal from Privet Drive came about not through a rescue by Hagrid, but because the house was attacked. For drama and plot development reasons, JKR then subsequently decided to change that, and have Harry return there every summer, but now the time is right to finish with that familiar opening scenario. Secondly, the Dursleys represent truly boring ordinariness, and absolute denial of magical inventiveness. I remember watching an interview with JKR when she somewhat wickedly half-apologised to the inhabitants of Dursley (a real town in Gloucestershire) for picking on their name for her dull Muggle family. She lingered amusingly on the aching dreariness of the name as she said it, stressing its gloomy syllables. I think she would get a bit of vicarious satisfaction out of blowing the place up! Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't think she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to live with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation that his wife and son were magical. Carolyn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 11 11:07:01 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:07:01 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > Meri now, intrigued: So, let me get this straight. Your theory is > that Vapo!Mort has existed for quite some time, perhaps even as long > as the Chamber of Secrets itself, and it lay there peacefully > waiting for some young innocent like Riddle to stumble upon it? > Fascinating. I think that this would sort of reinforce the choice > theme of the books, wouldn't it. >snip > My imagination is > piqued. (Though admittedly this doesn't explain why Tom Riddle's > father needed to be used for the resurection. Why not a different > wizard?) I am also wondering what implications this could have for > the prophecy. Maybe this means that Harry while the only one who can > defeat theoretical Vapo!Mort he is also the only body that can truly > support Vapo!Mort. So maybe Harry is the one with the power to > vanquish the Dark Lord, and maybe if Vapo!Mort were to posess Harry > then Harry would die and LV would live. But unless he can posses > Harry, Vapo!Mort isn't really alive? Did anything I just say make > any sense? Anyway, good on ya, Kneasy. Nice theorizing. I've occasionally posted theories on the possibilty of possession being a key plot device for some time and it prompts some intriguing questions: 1. It's the Chamber of Secrets - plural. What else was down there? 2. Heirs get an inheritance, otherwise they're not heirs, they're just descendants. What did Tom get? 3. Vapour!Mort - no explanation has ever appeared telling us just what the nature of this thing is and yet it appears to be a unique phenomenon. When obvious questions are missed or glossed over, my thumbs prickle. Is JKR hiding something? 4. If Voldy is a combinant it would maybe explain why DD calls him "Tom" to his face, even though he tells the kids to call him Lord Voldemort. If possession has taken place, DD obviously believes that some part of Tom still exists. Is he trying to persuade Tom to choose anew? To break free with an inevitable weakening effect on the possessing entity? 5. "There are worse things than death, Tom." Eternal servitude to an evil master, perhaps? 6. Vapour!Mort (possibly essence of Salazar) may be immortal or nearly so, but to meet his performance targets he needs a body. Tom did fine until he got in the way of a rebounding spell. The senior partner in the Voldy team doesn't want to go through the palaver of breaking in a new host again, so the graveyard scene was about producing an immortal carrier. 7. Harry's memories of the Godric's Hollow incident (PoA chap 9) are interesting, particularly if you have a suspicious mind. Lily is pleading with Voldy and she asks him not to 'take' Harry, but to take her, kill her instead. Now 'take' can be used as an alternative for kill, as in 'take a life' but it's use here when Harry is at the wrong end of a wand seems a bit strange; 'kill' or 'hurt' would be a more common usage. Maybe Voldy wanted to possess Harry too. 8. Lily is killed, Voldy tries to nail Harry. Strangely, Harry can recall only one green flash; why not two? Some may argue that Lily was holding Harry and Voldy was going for two birds with one spell, but in that case why did the spell rebound? It hit, or partially hit, it's intended target - Lily. Why would there be a powerful enough rebound to destroy Voldy? 9. AKs cause no physical damage at all, judging by the state of Cedric. So how come a rebound totally destroys Voldy's body? The spell transferred parts of Voldy into Harry. Seems a bit odd - why would a killing spell transfer bits of the killer into a soon to be corpse? See, it raises my paranoia index when there are loose ends like these flapping around, and if it's possible to cobble 'em together and come up with a theory as a possible explanation as to what's going on, it makes it even more interesting. Even if nobody agrees with me. Kneasy From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 11 11:18:14 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:18:14 -0000 Subject: OWLs, NEWTs, House integration, careers and death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100776 OK folks here are my predictions: OWLs Hermione will pass everything she takes, come top in everything except: Neville will come top in Herbology Harry in DADA Luna in Ancient Runes Ron will pass: Charms Transfiguration Care of MC DADA Astronomy Potions (badly) and ..... Divination with the highest mark! Harry will pass everything except Divination He won't get an 'O' in Potions Neville however, will get an 'O' in Potions! NEWTs and House Integration in Year 6 NEWT classes are attended by all four houses together, so HRH will be seeing a lot more of other house members. This year in a spirit of interhouse friendship students will be given the opportunity to switch houses. Hermione will transfer to Ravenclaw (Ron will view this as a betrayal). Cho will transfer to Slytherin (Harry will take this well, not) Neville will transfer to Hufflepuff, which will leave a space in Harry and Ron's dorm for..... A Slytherin sleeper to transfer to Gryffindor! (Who will become Harry's best new friend). Harry will decide to become an Auror and will therefore take: DADA Transfiguration Charms Potions (McGonagall will make sure he does, Snape will not be pleased) Care of MC After defeating Voldemort he will change his mind and teach DADA at Hogwarts. He will marry and twelve children all with red hair. Ron will decide to work in the Dept of Magical Games and Sports and will take: DADA Charms Care of MC Divination (to deal with gambling infringements) Astronomy (for Divination) Mostly he will play Quidditch! Ron will, of course, never work for the ministry because he will die an unforeseen death and become a ghost at Hogwarts. Neville will decide to become a Healer and take: DADA Herbology Charms Transfiguration Potions (Snape will no longer rattle him) He will become a healer and heal his parents. Hermione will decide to work for the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures (continuing to spew) and take more subjects than anyone else, these will be: Charms DADA History of Magic Care of MC Ancient Runes Arithmancy Herbology She will not take Transfiguration on moral grounds concluding it to be cruel. Hermione will eventually become Minister for Magic and transform inter magical species relations. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 11:21:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:21:11 -0000 Subject: Other Witnesses (was Snape's Liability/Snape's Loyalty (-long-) ) In-Reply-To: <8e.d239c8c.2dfa2f63@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100777 > Jo Ann wrote: > > Now compare that scene to the staff room scene in CoS, when Lockhart shows up > late and Snape calls his bluff, suggesting he should go to the Chamber and do > his DADA thing. McGonagall jumps right in and backs Snape up, and the other > Heads of House follow her lead without hesitation. > > Throughout the stories, I remember a few situations where the House rivalry > between Gryffindor and Slytherin has come into play between McGonagall and > Snape, but I don't recall that she has ever said or done anything to indicate that > she doubts his loyalty or trustworthiness, or even that she holds a > particularly strong dislike for him. And I doubt that knowing DD trusts the man would > stop her from expressing her own opinion, in one way or another. > > Indeed, most of the times we've seen Snape and McGonagall together at > important moments, they've presented a united front--whether or not DD was present. > > It proves nothing, but it's perhaps something to think about. Potioncat: I've always had the impression, and this may be up for interpretation, that McGonagall and Snape have a running competition over quidditch that they enjoy...that is, rather than being bitter rivals. I can recall one time where their differences came out. It was in GoF right after Harry was named as a champion. And even then it was done with anger, but not ill will. And of course there's my favorite scene in Career Advice when she smiles as she tells Harry he'll have to take Potions. Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 11:27:34 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:27:34 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > I'd say Dumbledore is a real adult? He's willing to give people > second chance, doesn't get winded up in personal emotion too much, > knows when someone is lying to him and persuades them to be > truthful... And I don't think DD was *stupid* in telling HArry about > the prophecy at the end of OoP (I believe Alla said "Dumbledore's > stupidity" in earlier post? It made me jump out of my seat). Actually, Alla said that Dumbledore was stupid for NOT telling Harry about the prophecy. :o) Alla From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 11:38:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:38:17 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Incident : is Harry stupid ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100779 Apart from the fact that I think that Harry had no right to go and invade somebody else's memories, I'm left wondering whether Harry is stupid or something. When I first read that scene, I remember wanting to scream to Harry not to do it, because *he doesn't know how to get out of a Pensieve on his own !* When Harry went into DD's Pensieve in GoF, he was stuck there, and he had to go from memory to memory until DD came and took him out. So how ever did he expect to get out of the Pensieve this time ? Del From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 11 11:57:03 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:57:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100780 Hi everyone! I've been away for a looooong time and I don't know how long I'll be here now, but I've been bursting to post some thoughts I've had as I've been rereading PoA. Here goes: I was chatting with my sweetie last night and we got to talking about wizarding families, particularly the Blacks and the Snapes. Now, we all know that not only did Sirius and Snape loathe each other when they were students at Hogwarts, but as adults they continued to hold onto their grudges. Their feelings towards one another are deeply rooted. We also know that Sirius comes from a line of old pure-blood wizards who, if I am not mistaken, generally come from Slytherin. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Blacks knew the Snapes from way back when? We don't know so much about the Snapes other than a cursory glance at what might have been an unhappy family. Since there is so much overlapping in the WW, it would make sense to me to find out that the Blacks socialized with the Snapes long before their sons made it to Hogwarts. Sirius explained to the Trio in GoF that Snape knew more curses than any other kid upon his arrival to Hogwarts. Maybe Sirius knew that from childhood experiences with Snape. If Snape was known to be a nasty kid and Sirius, as a child, was already displaying the traits of a Gryffindor, I can imagine the tensions between the two starting even earlier than Hogwarts. I am also curious, as I think many are, about the Potters. OoP gives us a nice background of how small the wizard community is, and how so many wizards are related to one another. The Potters, however, are never mentioned. I know they're all gone, or Harry would never have had to go to the Dursleys, but who are they? Are they an old wizarding family? Were they all mixed with Muggles? Pure bloods? What do you think? --jenny from ravenclaw, who just might post some more ************************ From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 11:58:34 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:58:34 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <6b.2ba992b9.2dfa8826@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100781 Batchevra wrote: > > Snape left the Pensieve where Harry could get to it, also Snape showed Harry > that he put his thoughts into it. To someone like Harry who is curious and > will go to seek information wherever he can find it, to do that stuff in front of > him was like waving a blanket in front of a bull. Snape should not have left > the Pensieve where Harry could get to it and shouldn't have put his thoughts > into it while Harry was there. Snape is an adult. Potioncat: This sort of connects to something I was thinking about yesterday. We don't know how the pensieve works or what its "rules" are. In GoF, IIRC, DD says he was interrupted while using it and failed to put it away properly. In OoP, Snape takes out memories after Harry arrives and puts them back in his head as Harry leaves. (If it were me, I wouldn't put that particular memory back...I'd do an "oops") I don't know if JKR has a Magical explanation for this or not. Perhaps there is a time factor...like how long you can leave food sitting out before you risk food poisoning... But, to my real reply to this post: Snape didn't just "leave the pensieve out where Harry could get to it." Normally he takes his memories out, he teaches Harry, he puts them back. On this day, an emergency came up, he told Harry to leave (He indicated the session was cancelled.) and Snape rushed out to help the Slytherin who was stuffed in the toilet. (Don't let the humor of this overwhelm the seiousness of it. Pretend it's an Gryffindor.) Snape rushed out to rescue a student, and Harry stayed and went into the pensieve. Snape can't be blamed for not stopping to either return the thoughts or to lock them up. And it could be understood how a 15 year old would have a hard time resisting, but he should have. It may say something that Snape didn't lock them up on a regular basis. Perhaps he actually trusted Harry. Potioncat (who agrees with whoever said, that Occlumency failure does not tie into blame for Sirius' death.) From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 11 12:01:02 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:01:02 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: snip > > I've occasionally posted theories on the possibilty of possession being a > key plot device for some time and it prompts some intriguing questions: > > 1. It's the Chamber of Secrets - plural. What else was down there? Jo I don't know but I bet the veiled gateway started life there! > > 2. Heirs get an inheritance, otherwise they're not heirs, they're just > descendants. What did Tom get? Jo Well obviously he got possession of the family secret, no skeleton in the closet, just an extra evil salazar spirit in the body. > > 3. Vapour!Mort - no explanation has ever appeared telling us just > what the nature of this thing is and yet it appears to be a unique > phenomenon. When obvious questions are missed or glossed > over, my thumbs prickle. Is JKR hiding something? Jo Your thumbs prickle! JKR hide something? Not possible! > > 4. If Voldy is a combinant it would maybe explain why DD calls him > "Tom" to his face, even though he tells the kids to call him Lord > Voldemort. If possession has taken place, DD obviously believes that > some part of Tom still exists. > Is he trying to persuade Tom to choose anew? To break free with an > inevitable weakening effect on the possessing entity? Jo Redemption is always a possibility, Tom has a better chance than Snape (Joke). > > 5. "There are worse things than death, Tom." > Eternal servitude to an evil master, perhaps? Jo Repetitive thumb prickling > > 6. Vapour!Mort (possibly essence of Salazar) may be immortal or > nearly so, but to meet his performance targets he needs a body. > Tom did fine until he got in the way of a rebounding spell. The > senior partner in the Voldy team doesn't want to go through the > palaver of breaking in a new host again, so the graveyard scene > was about producing an immortal carrier. Jo If hosts are heirs then no bodies left, immortal carrier becomes priority, we know Voldemort was trying to find immortality before the unfortunate vapourisation perhaps this is why. > > 7. Harry's memories of the Godric's Hollow incident (PoA chap 9) > are interesting, particularly if you have a suspicious mind. Lily > is pleading with Voldy and she asks him not to 'take' Harry, but > to take her, kill her instead. Now 'take' can be used as an alternative > for kill, as in 'take a life' but it's use here when Harry is at the wrong > end of a wand seems a bit strange; 'kill' or 'hurt' would be a more > common usage. Maybe Voldy wanted to possess Harry too. Jo Suspicious mind, you hum it, I'll sing it. Maybe Voldy thought he could transfer to Harry in place of Tom, picking up the powers that he 'knows not' into the bargain. "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore? called Voldemort" .....stuff..... "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom" Dumbledore said calmly". Knobbled from the inside out, that can't be pretty (the thumb prickling alone will drive you crazy). > > 8. Lily is killed, Voldy tries to nail Harry. Strangely, Harry can recall > only one green flash; why not two? Some may argue that Lily was > holding Harry and Voldy was going for two birds with one spell, but > in that case why did the spell rebound? It hit, or partially hit, it's > intended target - Lily. Why would there be a powerful enough > rebound to destroy Voldy? Jo Old magic my son, old magic. Voldy comes from a long line of heirs passing on their inner salazar, presumably by some old magic. Lily is protecting Harry with more vintage witchery. They come together and *bang* > > 9. AKs cause no physical damage at all, judging by the state of Cedric. > So how come a rebound totally destroys Voldy's body? > The spell transferred parts of Voldy into Harry. Seems a bit odd - why > would a killing spell transfer bits of the killer into a soon to be corpse? > Jo Perhaps transfer of Salazar essence causes death in prior host, Lily deflected transfer, leaving it incomplete, so death also incomplete. > See, it raises my paranoia index when there are loose ends like these > flapping around, and if it's possible to cobble 'em together and come > up with a theory as a possible explanation as to what's going on, it > makes it even more interesting. Even if nobody agrees with me. > > Kneasy Yup! Regards Jo From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 11 12:03:44 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:03:44 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100783 Hi - This is completely unrelated to my previous post but I've been eager to post this. I hope it hasn't been discussed to death, but I know this list and it probably has. In PoA, when Harry gets on the Knight Bus and Stan Shunpike asks for his name, the first one that came to mind was Neville Longbottom. I found that really interesting, after having read OoP, and knowing that there's a real connection between Harry and Neville. Maybe the connection between the two boys is stronger than what we've seen already, especially since Neville's name, of all the names Harry could have chosen, jumped into Harry's head at such a random time. I'm hoping we'll find out more about that prophecy and that it was no coincidence that Neville was the last one standing (well, trying to stand) with Harry at the MoM in OoP. I know Neville will never be as strong as Harry, but I'd like to see him come even more into his own. I enjoyed seeing that in OoP, because before that, I was not a Neville fan. When it comes to Harry, however, I've adored him since we met him in SS. --jenny from ravenclaw, defender of Harry 'till the end **************************** From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 12:09:28 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:09:28 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kljohnson7868" wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no > idea what that might be. > > Ideas? > >From Chapter 13 - "And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half- forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." Why is Harry's initial reaction to Tom Riddle's name so powerfully positive? We have not yet been vouchsafed the slightest clue - was Voldemort in contact with Harry somehow *before* attempting to murder him? This seems to hint at the mysterious mental link between Harry and Voldemort that becomes so prominent in OOP. - CMC From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 12:21:43 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley's full name? (was Re: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611122143.41874.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100787 --- Brenda wrote: > Oh, by the way, why do you think they are so poor? > I mean, after > all, Arthur is the *Head* of Misuse of Muggle > Artifacts Department... > Wouldn't he get paid at least a respectful amount? > I don't think > they have much gold in their vault (if they have any > left)...? > > > Bren I doubt he gets paid much. Seems many regard his department as less important than the janitorial staff. He has one other person in his office and they worked in a cramped little room with no windows. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 12:35:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:35:09 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry (Was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100788 darrin wrote: > We're done. I left this list once before because I found a > disgusting and disturbing hatred for Harry Potter amongst many of > the posters. I'm sorry to see nothing much has changed. Del replies : Ow Darrin, I'm sorry you're feeling that way ! But I'm afraid it's a reality you just have to face : different people like different things. There's no way you can expect everyone to like the same things as you do. I'm one of those "Harry-haters" that trouble you so much. And do you want to know why I "hate" him so much ? Simply because so many other posters openly adore him too much for my taste :-) I find Harry OK most of the time, but I don't like him really. In real life, he wouldn't be one of my friends, for sure. So when I come here, and I read posts that basically say "Harry is the best, he's a thousand times better than anyone else, he's perfect and how can anyone dare find fault in him", well, I get... annoyed ;-) But I grant those people the right to love and adore Harry as much as they want, as long as they let me criticize him if I want. They get on my nerves sometimes, I'm sure I get on theirs once in a while, but that's the rules of the game, and we need to be OK with that or we won't get anywhere. Del From KLMF at aol.com Fri Jun 11 12:50:26 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:50:26 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100789 Actually, the one thought that keeps coming to my mind is that the real person at fault here, and no one (at least that I've observed....I may not have caught all the posts) is Dumbledore and his poor judgement on how much to divulge to Harry from the beginning. Harry respects DD, indeed it can be said he loves him, and consciously or subconsciously sees him as a father figure and a source of security and stability in his life. But all through the OotP Dumbledore has markedly *avoided* any meaningful contact with Harry. Indeed I have to admit to feeling for Harry every time DD failed him emotionally and can't blame Harry for his anger and frustration. DD repeatedly failed him when Harry needed him most. Had DD explained his actions and reasonings to Harry from the beginning, either directly or through someone Harry *likes, trusts, and respects*, Harry probably would have made better choices on how to act. What's more, it IS in DD's power to implore upon Snape that for the Occlumency lessons to be effective, Snape MUST treat Harry respectfully and refrain from demeaning comments that frankly only serve to ensure the lessons fail. Being "only 15" does not excuse Harry from bad behaviors but being 15*is* an emotionally and hormonally tumultuous period of development. Teenagers are inclined to obsess in order to make sense of their world and have some sense of control within it, and given to great frustration when they can't find good answers or reasons. They crave independence but also some kind of guidance whether they will admit to it or not. It's easy to forget what it's like to be young. Karen (who wonders what the heck she was thinking when she read From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 12:52:48 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:52:48 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100790 > > > Alla: > > > Darrin, I love your posts, especially because I agree with the > majority of the points you make, but I want to ask you the same > question, I asked another poster earlier. > > > Why, why, why do you find the hatred of Harry Potter to be disturbing?I am genuinely curious. > > If poster states that he/she loves/hates the character to me it says absolutely nothing about the poster except his/her literary > preferences. > > Just as much I am entitled to scream till my face is blue how much I > hate what Snape does to the children he teaches, people who hate > Harry entitled to do the same. :o) > > Why is it disturbing? I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are cheering for the bad guys. And this gives me the chance to post one of my other moderately infamous rants, which my young friend Talia Dawn will remember. The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth rolled into one. I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." So maybe I give Harry more slack than other characters. Not only because he has gone through more grief at a younger age than any other character -- I'll grant that Snape was bullied in school, but did he have to fend off a version of V-Mort four times in five years? -- but because at the core, he's the guy to root for. Darrin From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Fri Jun 11 13:04:18 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:04:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040611084514.03aa3930@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100791 > >Luckie wrote: > > I was under the impression that wherever Harry's mother's blood > > dwelled, that is where he would be protected. Kind of like a home >is > > where the heart is... or blood is. So if Petunia was with the > > Weasleys, Harry would simply gave to return to the Burrow to > > reinstate his protection. > > >bowlwoman replies: >I thought about that, but to me the passage means something >different. > >snipped quote > >I read this as Petunia has to be the one offering, not just that he >lives in the same place as she does. If Dudders and Petunia had to >room at the Weasleys, then it wouldn't be Petunia's call to allow >Harry to stay, it would be Molly's. > >Like I said before, if Petunia gets a new place and allows Harry to >live there during the summer, then yes, the protection would still be >in effect. I think she'll be on the run, tho, without a home that's >wholly hers. At that point, Harry honestly has no place to call >home, so the protection won't work. > >bowlwoman Now Phil chimes in: I love your theory, bowlwoman, but two things came to me when reading it. 1. There is a house available, number twelve, Grimmauld Place, which Petunia could possibly inherrit, that is until Harry comes of age. 2. And if DD makes it known that Duddy is a wizard, shouldn't he start attending Hogwarts as a first year student? >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >ADVERTISEMENT > > >---------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ > > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 11 13:05:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:05:02 -0000 Subject: Why it was less risky to use Snape was Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100792 > Ally: > > I think this a big question and, to me, raises some real questions about the REAL reason DD wanted Snape to give these lessons. He said it was too much of a risk to Harry and the Order for him to give the lessons himself - that Voldie might realize and try to use Harry as a weapon. Well, doesn't the same risk apply with Snape? Why on earth wouldn't it? If anything, its hinted that the Dark Mark gives Voldie > some deeper connection to those who bear it, so Snape teaching the lessons would be doubly risky, no? > Pippin: Harry did not get the feeling a snake was inside him when he looked Snape in the eye. I don't believe this is an inconsistency; I think it has to do with the way the scar connection works. There's no indication that Voldemort gets feedback from the scar, ie, he can't tell when the scar is hurting Harry. So while Harry has an indicator that tells him when he is picking up thoughts and feelings from Voldemort, Voldemort has no such indicator to tell him he is getting thoughts from Harry. In fact, we are told he did not realize it was happening until the attack on Arthur. So how *did* Voldemort realize he was getting Harry's thoughts? Because in that instance they were so different from what Voldemort himself would feel. When Voldemort found himself filled with horror at the idea of attacking Arthur, he knew those couldn't be *his* thoughts, and he was able to focus on their source. The same was true of Dumbledore. When Harry looked Dumbledore in the eye he felt a surge of love and hope so strong it caught Voldemort's attention, and Voldemort knew those couldn't be his own feelings. But Harry doesn't have warm, fuzzy feelings about Snape, so Voldemort can't distinguish Harry's feelings from his own miasma of hatred and resentment. Pippin From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:06:42 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:06:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100793 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > Sirius explained to the Trio in GoF that Snape knew more curses than any other kid upon his arrival to Hogwarts. Maybe Sirius knew that from childhood experiences with Snape. If Snape was known to be a nasty kid and Sirius, as a child, was already displaying the traits of a Gryffindor, I can imagine the tensions between the two starting even earlier than Hogwarts. > Let's assume, though I know it might cause pain to those who worship Snape, that Snape, when he was a Slyth and DE, harbored much the same anti Muggle prejudice as the others. Actually, we KNOW he does, when he calls Lily a mudblood. Whether he still harbors those beliefs, I don't know, but his treatment of Hermione comes from somewhere. And if Sirius was the first Gryffindor in his line, perhaps Snape viewed him as a race traitor. You and your sweetie sound like you get a lot accomplished in those discussions. :) > I am also curious, as I think many are, about the Potters. OoP gives us a nice background of how small the wizard community is, and how so many wizards are related to one another. The Potters, however, are never mentioned. I know they're all gone, or Harry would never have had to go to the Dursleys, but who are they? Are they an old wizarding family? Were they all mixed with Muggles? Pure bloods? Actually, if I understand D-Dore's spell correctly, it wouldn't matter if the place was crawling with Potters. Harry needs to live with an Evans. It was his mother who died to save him and he must dwell in a place with her blood. And Petunia apparently is the only Evans still left, which is in a way, just as interesting, because it begs the question, "Where the hell are the other Evans'?" Now, does this mean there are Potters still alive? It is possible, but I doubt it. You'd think one would have contacted Harry by now, but perhaps there is a reason D-Dore doesn't want that. (And if he though Harry broke things when Sirius was killed, just WAIT to see the kid's reaction to that.) We know that James' parents were alive when he and Sirius were 16. We know that James died when he was around 21 or so. Maybe they died in those years or maybe they actually knew Harry as a baby or MAYBE, the survived James and died sometime before Harry turned 11. Inquiring minds want to know. Where's Rita Skeeter when you need her? Darrin -- Hi Jenny, how's that anti-Hagrid thing working out? :) From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:16:16 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:16:16 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry (Was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" < delwynmarch at y...> wrote: > And do you want to know why I "hate" him so much ? Simply because so many other posters openly adore him too much for my taste :-) I find Harry OK most of the time, but I don't like him really. In real life, he wouldn't be one of my friends, for sure. So when I come here, and I read posts that basically say "Harry is the best, he's a thousand times better than anyone else, he's perfect and how can anyone dare find fault in him", well, I get... annoyed ;-)< I reply: What does that mean? You dislike Harry because others like him so much? That doesn't make much sense to me. That doesn't show me how you think Harry's behavior, motivations, moods, looks and general characterization make him someone to justifiably dislike. I happen to adore Harry. My heart goes out to him when he's upset and I cheer for him when he struggles. I want to protect him, support him and know him. If I went to school with him I'd have a wild crush on him if he wasn't my friend already. To me, Harry is one of the strongest wizards around. He has already overcome enormous obstacles and continues to climb even higher. I believe that he *will* defeat Voldemort, because he is stronger, smarter, better. He may lose his life in the process (which will devastate me), but Harry would do that; he'd sacrifice his own life for the greater good. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************************************** From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 13:25:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:25:43 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100795 Darrin wrote: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about > Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am > not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have > not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > And this gives me the chance to post one of my other moderately > infamous rants, which my young friend Talia Dawn will remember. > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. Potioncat: OK, if we all agree that Harry is wonderful and perfect and Slytherins are bad and evil. What are we going to discuss? I think Harry's favorite color is blue? What do you think is Harry's favorite color? Or, is Harry's magic so powerful that he could conjure a rock so big that even he couldn't levitate it? (thank you George Carlin) I am not a Harry hater. I have a 15 year old son who was behaving a lot like Harry did in OoP. (Thankfully he moved out of that phase but boy, there were times I would have loved to throw a jar of cockroaches at him!) If Harry was perfect this series would be "Brady Bunch goes to Boarding school" and Snape would grumble that his porridge was too hot. I think the fun is, Harry does screw up and unpleasant teachers are part of the good guys. And the question is, if one Slytherin can be on the good side, are there others? And because JKR has set us before, we ask, is she setting us up this time? Potioncat (who admits sometimes particular threads are not fun and I've learned to walk away...sometimes I just don't walk away soon enough.) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 13:29:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:29:30 -0000 Subject: Why it was less risky to use Snape was Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100796 Pippin: > The same was true of Dumbledore. When Harry looked > Dumbledore in the eye he felt a surge of love and hope so strong > it caught Voldemort's attention, and Voldemort knew those > couldn't be his own feelings. But Harry doesn't have warm, fuzzy > feelings about Snape, so Voldemort can't distinguish Harry's > feelings from his own miasma of hatred and resentment. > Potioncat: Great idea! And all the more reason for Snape to keep bad feelings alive. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:31:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:31:36 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > > > Alla previously: > > > > > > Darrin, I love your posts, especially because I agree with the > > majority of the points you make, but I want to ask you the same > > question, I asked another poster earlier. > > > > > > Why, why, why do you find the hatred of Harry Potter to be > disturbing?I am genuinely curious. > > > > If poster states that he/she loves/hates the character to me it > says absolutely nothing about the poster except his/her literary > > preferences. > > > > Just as much I am entitled to scream till my face is blue how much > I > > hate what Snape does to the children he teaches, people who hate > > Harry entitled to do the same. :o) > > > > Why is it disturbing? > > Darrin: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about > Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am > not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have > not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > And this gives me the chance to post one of my other moderately > infamous rants, which my young friend Talia Dawn will remember. > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > rolled into one. > > I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, > but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." > > Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." > > So maybe I give Harry more slack than other characters. Not only > because he has gone through more grief at a younger age than any > other character -- I'll grant that Snape was bullied in school, but > did he have to fend off a version of V-Mort four times in five > years? -- but because at the core, he's the guy to root for. > > Darrin Oooo, I understand now. Well, here is where we differ. I 100% agree with you that Slyhterins ARE the bad guys,. but to me it is perfectly normal to root for the villains in the book. Now, please don't get me wrong. If person tells me that he/she likes Slytherin house in general or Draco Malfoy in particular, I understand that. It is entertainment. Villains can be liked for entertainment value. If the person tells me that he/she shares Slytherin values AS APPLIED TO REAL LIFE (and yes, I believe that Rowling had very real life things in mind, when she wrote about Slytherin pureblooded bigotry), than the best reaction that the said person can expect from me is that I will stop associating myself with th at person completely. Yes, Slyhterin values are the caricature of all the worst traits possible - racism, antisemitism, etc. But to me it is still has nothing to do with our real life values. I adore Harry, I will jump to defend him quite often and will continue doing so, but he is just as fictional as all other characters and I think that people are entitled to hate him. :o) Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 13:32:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:32:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100798 Darrin asks: > > Now, does this mean there are Potters still alive? It is possible, > but I doubt it. You'd think one would have contacted Harry by now, > but perhaps there is a reason D-Dore doesn't want that. (And if he > though Harry broke things when Sirius was killed, just WAIT to see > the kid's reaction to that.) > > Potioncat: I don't recall which book, but I think Lupin or Sirius comments that LV was after the last Potter when he went after Harry and his parents. From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:34:30 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:34:30 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > And remember, in the end, occlumency wasn't important after all. It > > didn't help Harry one bit. > > Had Harry been able to block the image of Sirius being tortured, I think that > might have helped. Ally: Yes, it might have. Had Harry studied occlumency over the months he was being taught, perhaps he would have been able to do that. Had DD been up front with Harry about the reasons for occlumency, maybe things would have been different. I am not trying to let Snape off the hook for his bad behavior. He was wrong, no doubt. But what I disagree with strongly is this implication that Snape is somehow wholly to blame for the failure of occlumency. You have every character involved making a mistake here, and in the spirit of true literary tragedy, each individual's personal failure happens to come together into a spectacular and terrible event. Ally: > So how could Snape have failed at a job > > that didn't really matter? I think its strongly suggested in the end > > that DD knew about Snape and Harry's falling out and, by that time, > > had an inkling that occlumency wasn't going to be that important. If > > he thought it was important at that time, then wouldn't he have at > > least told Harry to keep practicing on his own? Wouldn't he have > > sent someone - Lupin, Sirius, etc. - to tell Harry that? > Darrin: > As he was fleeing Hogwarts on the back of Fawkes' tail, Dumbledore told > Harry to keep studying it. That means D-Dore thought it was important. Ally: Yes, but that was before the pensive incident. By the time the incident occurred - some time later - we don't really know what DD thought of the importance of occlumency. But we do know that sometime before he ordered the lessons and he and Harry spoke at the end of OOTP, he realized that they were not important. So the question is when? I don't think any of us can say that for sure. But I suspect that if the lessons were important to DD at that point - when they stopped - that maybe something would have been done about it. Ally: > > I really suspect that DD hoped all along that occlumency would be a > > way for Harry and Snape to resolve some of their differences, in > > addition to teaching occlumency. Darrin: > Maybe if there wasn't a war on, D-Dore could indulge in such manipulative > diplomacy, but I don't agree. > > D-Dore wanted Snape to do a job and Snape couldn't or wouldn't do it. Harry > certainly didn't hold up his end, but -- I keep returning to this - - Snape is the > adult AND he knows much more of what is at stake. Ally: But hasn't DD always spoken about the importance of members of the Order working together and trusting each other? So getting Snape and Harry to reach some sort of accord wouldn't have just been folly. I think with the war impending, the importance of Snape and Harry trusting each other is greater than ever. So if DD thought at the outset that Harry needed occlumency and was aware of their similar upbringings, why not kill two birds with one stone? Wouldn't a great leader want to accomplish those two things that will BOTH help the Order and their side in the war? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:35:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:35:33 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry (was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100800 darrin wrote: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about > Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins Del notes : Not liking Harry doesn't automatically equate with loving the Slytherins. I don't care much either for Harry or for Snape. Darrin wrote : > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. Del replies : What has that got to do with anything ?? I don't have to cheer for the hero to get something out of a book (or movie or whatever). In "Robin Hood Prince of Thieves" I always cheer for the Sheriff and still enjoy myself tremendously. Darrin wrote : > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > rolled into one. Del replies : Erm... I think you've got things slightly wrong here, Darrin. It's the *Death-Eaters* who are all of that. Not the Slytherins. And I hope you don't assume that all Slytherins are bound to turn into DE, because that would be basically saying that 11-year-old kids can choose to be evil for the rest of their lives, which they can't. May I remind you that if Harry hadn't met anyone before he put on the Sorting Hat, he would most probably have ended up in Slytherin ? No matter how bad some past Slytherins have turned out to be, I can't help but wonder about the justice of a system where innocent kids can be sorted into a House that is detested by the entire rest of the school. How much of a chance do they really have to make friends outside of Slytherin ? Darrin wrote : > I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, > but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." > > Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." > > So maybe I give Harry more slack than other characters. Not only > because he has gone through more grief at a younger age than any > other character -- I'll grant that Snape was bullied in school, but > did he have to fend off a version of V-Mort four times in five > years? -- but because at the core, he's the guy to root for. Del replies : You're mixing up several things that don't necessarily go together. First, we don't know that Harry has suffered more than any other character. He himself admits that Neville's fate is worse than his own in many respects. Of course Neville didn't have to face LV, but so what ? Facing LV isn't necessarily the worst thing that can happen to someone. Second, the books are entitled "Harry Potter and..." because they are told from Harry's POV. That doesn't mean he's necessarily the absolute hero of the series. If I wrote my diary but it turned out in the end to be the story of how my sister became famous, it would still be *my* diary. Third, Harry might have done a lot, but he didn't do it alone. All alone, he wouldn't have managed much, if anything. Fighting LV is a team effort, and Harry needs all the others just as much as they need him. All alone, Harry is doomed and LV wins. Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:43:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:43:49 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry (was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Darrin wrote : > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > > rolled into one. > > Del replies : > Erm... I think you've got things slightly wrong here, Darrin. It's the > *Death-Eaters* who are all of that. Not the Slytherins. And I hope you > don't assume that all Slytherins are bound to turn into DE, because > that would be basically saying that 11-year-old kids can choose to be > evil for the rest of their lives, which they can't. Alla: Dell, I think Darrin got things right here. I think you know my views on marking eleven years old as future DE, I think it is stupid. But, so far as portrayed by Rowling the Slyhterin values are all that (all that bad, I mean) Alla From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:42:13 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:42:13 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100802 > > Ally: > > snip > > > > But if one character was clearly right in, e.g. the occlumency > > situation/Sirius' death, it would mean JKR wasn't that good of a > > writer to begin with. What makes these scenes great is that every > > character messes up in a way that is totally consistent with that > > character's flaws - Snape flips out, DD is too protective of Harry > > and optimistic about Snape, Sirius ignores Kreacher and acts > > impetuously and Harry betrays Snape by looking into the pensieve - > > and it all comes together into a tragic event. > > > > This is what good writing does - it doesn't judge. Unfortunately, > > most readers do not follow their writer's example. Jo: > Er NO! > > JKR most definitely judges. She clearly believes in good and bad, > right and wrong, dear god that's what these books are about!!!! > > BUT she is non judgemental i.e. has a very poor view of ill informed > judgement and delusions of superiority (Pride and Prejudice! anyone). > > (BTW Ally I have a feeling this is actually what you mean, but I > believe the distinction is critical.) Ally: That's maybe my fault for not being clear. Technically, everything you say about someone else is a judgment, but what I was specifically referring to is that she was being judgmental in terms of how the individual characters are portrayed and how they all share some of the "fault." And really, I meant it particularly in regards to the pensive/occlumency/Sirius' death events. For the record, I think JKR can be quite judgmental at times, and I am very wary of where she is going with the house distinctions, but I do think that this sequence of events follows the blueprint of good tragedy and represents some of the most complex characterization she's put together in any book. Each one of the key players - Snape, Harry, Sirius and DD - make mistakes that are very true to their characters and they all come together into a tragic event. None of them are solely to blame, they all bear some part of it. Jo: > When Harry meets Voldy he *must* understand he is not better, more > justified, greater than his enemy in anything other than the choices > he makes. Bad actions are *bad* actions regardless of the motivation. > To beat evil you have to act good, you cannot simply *be* good. Ally: I agree with this, and one of the things I like about the HP books is that they're basically children's books but allow the kids and adults to be fallible. I like that Harry is struggling with the need to see people as either evil or good and not their acts as evil or good. It's a good lesson to teach kids that bad people are capable of good things and good people are capable of making mistakes. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 11 13:51:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:51:32 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100803 Darin: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > And this gives me the chance to post one of my other moderately > infamous rants, which my young friend Talia Dawn will remember. > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth rolled into one.< > > I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, > but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." > > Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." > > So maybe I give Harry more slack than other characters. Not only because he has gone through more grief at a younger age than any other character -- I'll grant that Snape was bullied in school, but did he have to fend off a version of V-Mort four times in five years? -- but because at the core, he's the guy to root for. > Pippin: Er, yes, but there's not much point in rooting for Harry's redemption since he's never done anything really bad. In keeping with what some have seen as Christian themes in the work, it could be Harry's task to be an agent of redemption for others, Slytherins included, which, I hasten to add, does not preclude their being just as bad as you say. "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"* --while some believe that no one who sheds innocent blood can ever be redeemed, there is a strong current of Western thought that holds differently, to say the least. Pippin *Isaiah 1:18 From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:54:02 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:54:02 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100804 > Snip < > 7. Harry's memories of the Godric's Hollow incident (PoA chap 9) > are interesting, particularly if you have a suspicious mind. Lily > is pleading with Voldy and she asks him not to 'take' Harry, but > to take her, kill her instead. Now 'take' can be used as an alternative > for kill, as in 'take a life' but it's use here when Harry is at the wrong > end of a wand seems a bit strange; 'kill' or 'hurt' would be a more > common usage. Maybe Voldy wanted to possess Harry too. > > 8. Lily is killed, Voldy tries to nail Harry. Strangely, Harry can recall > only one green flash; why not two? Some may argue that Lily was > holding Harry and Voldy was going for two birds with one spell, but > in that case why did the spell rebound? It hit, or partially hit, it's > intended target - Lily. Why would there be a powerful enough > rebound to destroy Voldy? > > 9. AKs cause no physical damage at all, judging by the state of Cedric. > So how come a rebound totally destroys Voldy's body? > The spell transferred parts of Voldy into Harry. Seems a bit odd - why > would a killing spell transfer bits of the killer into a soon to be corpse? > > See, it raises my paranoia index when there are loose ends like these > flapping around, and if it's possible to cobble 'em together and come > up with a theory as a possible explanation as to what's going on, it > makes it even more interesting. Even if nobody agrees with me. > > Kneasy Snow agreeing: This very thought occurred to me recently but from a different angle. I wanted to know why in the priori incantatem we did not see or hear of an echo of what happened to Harry and Voldemort that night at Godric's Hollow. This echo should have been right before Lily's appearance. In searching for an answer I found the same question that you just posed of one green light being mentioned. If Lily were protecting Harry from Voldemort then he would have been in the room to see the green light that killed her and a second green light at the attempt on his own life but there doesn't appear to have been a second green light. What Harry said to Ron on his first train ride to Hogwarts was that all he could remember was a lot of green light a lot of green light? This sounded to me as though the green light filled the room. So I was off to theorize where a lot of green light could have possibly came from. The following "off the wall" scenario is what I came up with: The way I see it, Lily's charm to protect Harry could have been a direct connection with Harry. Lily connected with Harry as a shield. When Voldemort told Lily to move (step aside you silly girl) and she wouldn't she was knocked out of the way of aim physically but she had already shielded Harry using herself as the charm. In other words she wasn't physically standing in front of Harry when the AK backfired but the human shield charm worked as though she was in front of him. When the AK was deflected back onto Voldemort (like the shield charm with Harry and Snape during Occlumency) some of Voldemort's powers, instead of thoughts, backfired onto Harry. Harry said there was a lot of green light. If, in this theory, you follow the light from Voldemort's wand towards Harry, it could not hit Harry because Lily attached herself to Harry. So the green light had to find the physical body of Harry's protector. Lily may have been lying some feet from where Harry actually was. The green light then hit Lily's physical body, which was sacrificed to keep the shield alive so it rebounded onto Voldemort. The green light hitting Voldemort destroyed his body and expelled some of his powers onto Harry in the same manner that Snape's memories backfired to Harry. The initial connection between Harry and his mother allowed her abilities to also be instilled in Harry because her physical body was separated from her actual being which was connected to Harry when her physical body was destroyed. As a result this would be a lot of green light. This would also be the answer to my question as to why Harry's attack by Voldemort did not appear as an echo in the priori incantatum. It was only Lily that was truly attacked, protecting Harry who bares the scar of the attempt on his life. The scar was formed much like a rock that had been thrown at a window that didn't break but left a crack. The rock didn't break the window just like the AK did not succeed to kill Harry but left a scar of the attempt. From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:55:43 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:55:43 -0000 Subject: Why it was less risky to use Snape was Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100805 > > Pippin: I > think it has to do with the way the scar connection works. There's > no indication that Voldemort gets feedback from the scar, ie, he > can't tell when the scar is hurting Harry. So while Harry has an > indicator that tells him when he is picking up thoughts and > feelings from Voldemort, Voldemort has no such indicator to tell > him he is getting thoughts from Harry. In fact, we are told he did > not realize it was happening until the attack on Arthur. > > So how *did* Voldemort realize he was getting Harry's thoughts? > Because in that instance they were so different from what > Voldemort himself would feel. When Voldemort found himself > filled with horror at the idea of attacking Arthur, he knew those > couldn't be *his* thoughts, and he was able to focus on their > source. > > The same was true of Dumbledore. When Harry looked > Dumbledore in the eye he felt a surge of love and hope so strong > it caught Voldemort's attention, and Voldemort knew those > couldn't be his own feelings. But Harry doesn't have warm, fuzzy > feelings about Snape, so Voldemort can't distinguish Harry's > feelings from his own miasma of hatred and resentment. > > Pippin Ally: Ah, excellent point Pippin. I hadn't put those things together. I still think that DD might have hoped that Snape and Harry would make some inroads personally during occlumency, especially in light of his emphasis on camaraderie and trust within the Order, but this makes the reason DD would have chosen Snape at the outset more clear. But, once Voldie knew that he was tapped into Harry's thoughts, from that moment on, Harry didn't have to be feeling love in order for him to access Harry's thoughts and manipulate him, no? So wouldn't Harry's memories of practicing occlumency with Snape be accessible? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:56:53 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:56:53 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100806 I, Del, wrote : > > And do you want to know why I "hate" him so much ? Simply because > > so many other posters openly adore him too much for my taste :-) I > > find Harry OK most of the time, but I don't like him really. In > > real life, he wouldn't be one of my friends, for sure. So when I > > come here, and I read posts that basically say "Harry is the best, > > he's a thousand times better than anyone else, he's perfect and > > how can anyone dare find fault in him", well, I get... annoyed > > ;-) Jenny from Ravenclaw replied : > What does that mean? You dislike Harry because others like him so > much? That doesn't make much sense to me. That doesn't show me how > you think Harry's behavior, motivations, moods, looks and general > characterization make him someone to justifiably dislike. I, Del, answer : Sorry, I wasn't clear obviously. I don't dislike Harry because other people like him. I dislike Harry, period. But when I see him being talked about like he's some kind of god, it annoys me and I can't help but point out what I think are his faults, which of course makes me look like I hate him. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I happen to adore Harry. My heart goes out to him when he's upset > and I cheer for him when he struggles. I want to protect him, > support him and know him. If I went to school with him I'd have a > wild crush on him if he wasn't my friend already. Del is horrified (kidding ;-) : A crush ?! No thank you !! As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To me, Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and people outside my own private world. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > To me, Harry is one of the strongest wizards around. He has already > overcome enormous obstacles and continues to climb even higher. I > believe that he *will* defeat Voldemort, because he is stronger, > smarter, better. Del replies : Better than who ? I personally don't see that Harry is better than most people. I'll grant him only 2 things : 1. He can keep his head cool and think very fast under pressure, which are the only things that make him a better fighter than Hermione IMO 2. He's revoltingly lucky. There's always some Deus Ex Machina to save him at the last minute. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > He may lose his life in the process (which will devastate me), but > Harry would do that; he'd sacrifice his own life for the greater > good. Del replies : I know it's a commonly held view, but I don't share it. I don't see that Harry ever truly thought about sacrificing himself. He very rarely realises that he's putting himself in danger to start with, and he never gave any thought to sacrifice. He might sacrifice himself to save people he loves, like many others have shown they would, but that's it. Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:57:38 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:57:38 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > Pippin: > > Er, yes, but there's not much point in rooting for Harry's > redemption since he's never done anything really bad. In > keeping with what some have seen as Christian themes in the > work, it could be Harry's task to be an agent of redemption for > others, Slytherins included, which, I hasten to add, does not > preclude their being just as bad as you say. > > "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as > snow"* --while some believe that no one who sheds innocent > blood can ever be redeemed, there is a strong current of > Western thought that holds differently, to say the least. > > Pippin > *Isaiah 1:18 True, Pippin. Redemption themes I love, that is why I am still capable to root for Snape, no matter how many times I wanted to strangle him in OOP. :) The problem with other Slytherins that as far as we know they have not done anything goood either, therefore FOR ME there is not much point to root for them either. Alla From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 11 13:59:35 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:59:35 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Incident : is Harry stupid ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Apart from the fact that I think that Harry had no right to go and > invade somebody else's memories, I'm left wondering whether Harry is > stupid or something. When I first read that scene, I remember wanting > to scream to Harry not to do it, because *he doesn't know how to get > out of a Pensieve on his own !* When Harry went into DD's Pensieve in > GoF, he was stuck there, and he had to go from memory to memory until > DD came and took him out. So how ever did he expect to get out of the > Pensieve this time ? > > Del Ally: I would say yes - being an impetuous and curious 15 yr old is very often the same as being stupid. : ) Harry definitely made a mistake there, but one that was so *Harry* I could hardly be surprised or angry with him. I think he just rushed in headlong because the curiosity got the better of him. Remember, he still has his doubts about Snape's allegiances, so he probably thought he might finally get that question resolved . . . and I suspect he probably would have if Snape hadn't pulled him out when he did. From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 11 14:01:02 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:01:02 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry (Was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" < delwynmarch at y...> wrote: > And do you want to know why I "hate" him so much ? Simply because so many other posters openly adore him too much for my taste :-) I find Harry OK most of the time, but I don't like him really. In real life, he wouldn't be one of my friends, for sure. So when I come here, and I read posts that basically say "Harry is the best, he's a thousand times better than anyone else, he's perfect and how can anyone dare find fault in him", well, I get... annoyed ;-)< I reply: What does that mean? You dislike Harry because others like him so much? That doesn't make much sense to me. That doesn't show me how you think Harry's behavior, motivations, moods, looks and general characterization make him someone to justifiably dislike. I happen to adore Harry. My heart goes out to him when he's upset and I cheer for him when he struggles. I want to protect him, support him and know him. If I went to school with him I'd have a wild crush on him if he wasn't my friend already. To me, Harry is one of the strongest wizards around. He has already overcome enormous obstacles and continues to climb even higher. I believe that he *will* defeat Voldemort, because he is stronger, smarter, better. He may lose his life in the process (which will devastate me), but Harry would do that; he'd sacrifice his own life for the greater good. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************************************** From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:01:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:01:20 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" <> Sorry, I > Del is horrified (kidding ;-) : > A crush ?! No thank you !! As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't > want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those > people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into > consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at > the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To me, > Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that > doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly > uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and > people outside my own private world. > Alla: Wow, where, where did you get that?:o) To me, Harry hates the fact that he is famous and honestly, I would not want much to do with Collin brothers either, because they constantly remind him that he is famous. I remember that Harry tried to be nice to them, but then he just tries to escape. I think it is perfectly understandable. Alla From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 14:05:18 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:05:18 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry (was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100811 > Darrin wrote : > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > > rolled into one. > > Del replies : > Erm... I think you've got things slightly wrong here, Darrin. It's the *Death-Eaters* who are all of that. Not the Slytherins. And I hope you don't assume that all Slytherins are bound to turn into DE, because that would be basically saying that 11-year-old kids can choose to be evil for the rest of their lives, which they can't. > Who are the Slytherins we know? Draco: Future DE if there ever was one Crabbe, Goyle: Sons of DEs Pansy Parkinson: Hateful little brat Maybe there is some hidden, "good Slytherin" kid out there, but JKR hasn't chosen to show us yet. We must go with what we have. And right now, the House of Slytherin is V-Mort's prime training ground for DEs. Will he get all of them? No, but he'll get enough to keep the movement going, and even those who don't join openly sympathize with V-Mort in spirit. > May I remind you that if Harry hadn't met anyone before he put on the Sorting Hat, he would most probably have ended up in Slytherin ? And if my uncle had breasts, he'd be my aunt. Harry DID meet other people and I also believe that Harry would have taken one look at the Slytherin table and one look at the Gryffindor table and make the exact same choice. (Or maybe he'd have seen Cho Chang and wanted to go to Ravenclaw.) > No matter how bad some past Slytherins have turned out to be, I can't help but wonder about the justice of a system where innocent kids can be sorted into a House that is detested by the entire rest of the school. How much of a chance do they really have to make >friends outside of Slytherin ? How much do they really want other friends? Doesn't seem to me like they want to associate with mudbloods and mudblood lovers. > Del replies : > You're mixing up several things that don't necessarily go together. > > First, we don't know that Harry has suffered more than any other > character. He himself admits that Neville's fate is worse than his own> in many respects. Of course Neville didn't have to face LV, but so> what ? Facing LV isn't necessarily the worst thing that can happen to someone. > I'm sure facing V-Mort is a bed of roses in some eyes, but four times in five years? With a horde of dementors thrown in for good measure? It's Harry's opinion that Neville's situation is worse than his. He puts others before him. Just one more thing to love about the kid, but I suppose since I've said that, you will instantly find something else to hate about him to balance the scales. > Third, Harry might have done a lot, but he didn't do it alone. All > alone, he wouldn't have managed much, if anything. Fighting LV is a > team effort, and Harry needs all the others just as much as they need him. All alone, Harry is doomed and LV wins. But we now know that if Harry just up and quit and flew his broom to South America to play Quidditch for Uruguay under an assumed name (Neville Longbottom! -- Shout out to Jenny from Ravenclaw) then the fight against V-Mort is lost. Only Harry can defeat him, according to the prophecy. So, Harry is the key. Maybe he deserves a bit more respect. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 14:08:36 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:08:36 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100812 > > Pippin: > > Er, yes, but there's not much point in rooting for Harry's > redemption since he's never done anything really bad. In > keeping with what some have seen as Christian themes in the > work, it could be Harry's task to be an agent of redemption for > others, Slytherins included, which, I hasten to add, does not > preclude their being just as bad as you say. > I don't see people as rooting for Slytherin redemption. To do so would be to admit they need redeemed, and we haven't even gotten that far yet. Apologizing for behavior while trying to drag down Harry's behaviors to some level of moral equivalency -- He was mean to the Creevey boys, so Draco can call Hermione a mudblood if he wants -- is not hoping for redemption. To have that, we'd have to have admission that the Slyths are wrong. :) Darrin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:18:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:18:57 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100813 Alla wrote : > Dell, I think Darrin got things right here. I think you know my > views on marking eleven years old as future DE, I think it is > stupid. > > But, so far as portrayed by Rowling the Slyhterin values are all > that (all that bad, I mean) Del replies : Then Harry is bad, because he's got all the Slytherin traits : ambition, cunning, a thirst to prove himself, etc... Oh, and a total disregard for rules of course : any means to achieve his goals indeed. Only 2 things truly set Harry apart from the Slytherins : 1. He doesn't believe in the Pureblood absurdity. But we don't know that all the Slytherins believe in it. And Harry doesn't care much about people's rights in general, he just cares about the people he likes. He couldn't care less about SPEW, but he's mad at those who make life difficult for werewolves because he happens to know and like a werewolf. He's angry when people talk badly of Hagrid just because he's a giant, but he doesn't mind categorizing his fellow schoolmates according to their House (all Slytherins are evil). Seems to me like he hasn't thought things over more than a certain Slytherin boy we know. 2. He has a personal history of hate with a famous Slytherin. But I'm pretty sure Draco wouldn't be so happy to be in Slytherin if LV had murdered *his* parents. Moreover, I would think that if Slytherin House was really all that bad, something would have been done about it during all those centuries. I can't see DD allowing such evil to survive in his school. And finally, I'd like to know how anyone would turn if, wherever they went in their school, whomever they met from another House, they always got the same amswer : you're a Slytherin, I don't want to associate with you. The Slytherin kids might have a natural inclination towards crime and evil, but nobody is helping them get out of that road either. Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:24:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:24:46 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Only 2 things truly set Harry apart from the Slytherins : > > 1. He doesn't believe in the Pureblood absurdity. But we don't know > that all the Slytherins believe in it. And Harry doesn't care much > about people's rights in general, he just cares about the people he > likes. He couldn't care less about SPEW, but he's mad at those who > make life difficult for werewolves because he happens to know and like > a werewolf. He's angry when people talk badly of Hagrid just because > he's a giant, but he doesn't mind categorizing his fellow schoolmates > according to their House (all Slytherins are evil). Seems to me like > he hasn't thought things over more than a certain Slytherin boy we know. Alla: That is the cornerstone of the Slytherin ideology so far,aas far as we know. So, no, Harry is not a true Slytherin. Del: The Slytherin kids might have a natural > inclination towards crime and evil, but nobody is helping them get out > of that road either. > > Del Alla: That I completely agree with you. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:27:33 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cheering on Harry (was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611142733.45907.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100815 darrin_burnett wrote: > Darrin wrote : > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > > rolled into one. > > Del replies : > Erm... I think you've got things slightly wrong here, Darrin. It's the *Death-Eaters* who are all of that. Not the Slytherins. And I hope you don't assume that all Slytherins are bound to turn into DE, because that would be basically saying that 11-year-old kids can choose to be evil for the rest of their lives, which they can't. > akh: I'm going to have to side with Darrin here. While someone sorted into Slytherin isn't forced to become a Deatheater, clearly JKR has established that the qualities that make someone a good Slytherin also make that person a good Deatheater (see COS). That Harry is not attracted to the bald ambition and elitist attitude that Draco evinces in Madame Malkins' and again on the train speaks to his qualities which do NOT make him either an ideal Slytherin or a good Deatheater. Using the Hitler Youth example, there were certainly children in that "program" who did not, ulitmately, buy into the propaganda (a neighbor of mine is a good example). The same may very well be true for the Slytherins, but they will need to be mature enough to make that kind of decision, which may be why we haven't seen it yet. For the most part, they appear to be willing to do what it takes to gain power, and in their lifetimes, they've been taught by their parents that the Voldemort way is the sure way. BTW, while I find him a bit impulsive, I, too, am very fond of Harry. akh, who ought to be getting ready to fly to New York. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 11 14:38:40 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:38:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100816 * 1) Someone will learn magic at a late age 2) This will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive 3) We know that some of the professors have spouses (snip) sorry Gina: If JKR said someone would learn magic at a late age I would say it would be Hagrid! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 11 14:44:46 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:44:46 -0000 Subject: Why it was less risky to use Snape was Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100817 Pippin > So how *did* Voldemort realize he was getting Harry's thoughts? > Because in that instance they were so different from what > Voldemort himself would feel. When Voldemort found himself > filled with horror at the idea of attacking Arthur, he knew those > couldn't be *his* thoughts, and he was able to focus on their > source. Jen: This is a *really* good point, Pippin. And since Harry was feeling so much anger at Privet Dr., and throughout the first half of the book (Umbridge, et al), it makes sense LV couldn't distinguish his own anger from Harry's up to that point. Pippin: > The same was true of Dumbledore. When Harry looked > Dumbledore in the eye he felt a surge of love and hope so strong > it caught Voldemort's attention, and Voldemort knew those > couldn't be his own feelings. But Harry doesn't have warm, fuzzy > feelings about Snape, so Voldemort can't distinguish Harry's > feelings from his own miasma of hatred and resentment. Jen: It makes sense that LV & Harry can distinguish each other's feelings, especially (or only?) when a feeling is particularly alien. With thoughts, though, Harry seems to be seeing through Voldemort's eyes at certain times and mainly in dreams. We don't find out whether LV has the same ability to see through Harry's eyes. Maybe the guy doesn't sleep?!? With the vision of Sirius, I always imagine LV was concentrating on this thought, dwelling on what it would be like to capture and torture Sirius in the MOM. Thinking hateful thoughts toward Sirius, coupled with Harry sleeping, brought that image into Harry's mind. Anyone else have an idea how LV 'inserted' this vision? Again, though, we don't get a clue whether LV can see into Harry's life, only that he is able to put images into Harry's head. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 11 14:50:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:50:02 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I don't see people as rooting for Slytherin redemption. To do so > would be to admit they need redeemed, and we haven't even gotten that far yet. > > Apologizing for behavior while trying to drag down Harry's behaviors to some level of moral equivalency -- He was mean to the Creevey boys, so Draco can call Hermione a mudblood if he wants -- is not hoping for redemption. > > To have that, we'd have to have admission that the Slyths are > wrong. :) Hmmm...I can recall a lot of argument on this list over *who* should be considered capable or guilty of racism and murder, but I can't recall anyone seriously arguing that racism and murder are okay. And I think most of us understand the position, though we might not agree, that racist name-calling is a hate crime and should be considered worse than bullying in general. But "Slyths are wrong?" Even Hagrid, no apologist for Slytherin, racism or murder, doesn't think all Slytherins become evil wizards. He doesn't think Snape is an evil wizard, does he? So to say "Slyths are wrong" seems to be going beyond the books, IMO. Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:55:08 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:55:08 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100819 Darrin wrote : > Who are the Slytherins we know? > > Draco: Future DE if there ever was one > Crabbe, Goyle: Sons of DEs > Pansy Parkinson: Hateful little brat > > Maybe there is some hidden, "good Slytherin" kid out there, but JKR > hasn't chosen to show us yet. We must go with what we have. Del replies : But wasn't it one the main lessons of the Pensieve Incident, that people can change ? James was a total jerk at 15, but he changed. Why can't we grant the same right to those Slytherin kids ? Darrin wrote : > And right now, the House of Slytherin is V-Mort's prime training > ground for DEs. Will he get all of them? No, but he'll get enough to > keep the movement going, and even those who don't join openly > sympathize with V-Mort in spirit. Del replies : Oh I agree there, and that makes me only more angry towards the good guys :-) The adults know what happened the first time around, how LV went recruiting among the Slytherin kids, so why aren't they doing anything to prevent that from happening again ?? DD is letting the kids choose their side again, but he should know that the Slytherin kids have been fed hate and anger and that their judgement is bound to be altered. (Del) > > May I remind you that if Harry hadn't met anyone before he put on > > the Sorting Hat, he would most probably have ended up in > > Slytherin ? Darrin wrote : > And if my uncle had breasts, he'd be my aunt. Del replies : I might be wrong in your idea, but that doesn't mean you can be disrespectful of my opinion, Darrin. Darrin also wrote : > Harry DID meet other people and I also believe that Harry would have > taken one look at the Slytherin table and one look at the Gryffindor > table and make the exact same choice. (Or maybe he'd have seen Cho > Chang and wanted to go to Ravenclaw.) Del replies : Speculation. Yep, Harry met people, lucky for him. Once again, it all comes down to luck. Harry was lucky to meet the right people at the right time in order to get a vague idea that he didn't want to be in Slytherin. (Del) > > No matter how bad some past Slytherins have turned out to be, I > > can't help but wonder about the justice of a system where innocent > > kids can be sorted into a House that is detested by the entire > > rest of the school. How much of a chance do they really have to > > make friends outside of Slytherin ? Darrin wrote : > How much do they really want other friends? Doesn't seem to me like > they want to associate with mudbloods and mudblood lovers. Del replies : Once again, speculation. We just don't know. And by the way, putting them all in the same bag without knowing them all individually isn't fair nor right. Darrin wrote : > I'm sure facing V-Mort is a bed of roses in some eyes, but four > times in five years? With a horde of dementors thrown in for good > measure? Del replies : Once again, you're being disrespectful. And what I meant is not that it isn't hard to face LV, just that it's not necessarily the only hard thing, nor the hardest one, one can face. What will break you can be a breeze for me and vice versa. Darrin wrote : > It's Harry's opinion that Neville's situation is worse than his. Del replies : Nope, it's also mine as a matter of fact. Darrin wrote : > He puts others before him. Just one more thing to love about the > kid, but I suppose since I've said that, you will instantly find > something else to hate about him to balance the scales. Del replies : You're getting annoying with your derisive irony, Darrin. Yes, Harry was very decent concerning Neville that time. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that Harry puts others before himself, because he doesn't. He put a stupid broom before Hermione, and his own hurt feelings before Ron's. I'm not saying he didn't have good reasons to do what he did, I'm just saying that he doesn't put others before him most of the time. Darrin wrote : > But we now know that if Harry just up and quit and flew his broom to > South America to play Quidditch for Uruguay under an assumed name > (Neville Longbottom! -- Shout out to Jenny from Ravenclaw) then the > fight against V-Mort is lost. Only Harry can defeat him, according > to the prophecy. Del replies : Even if Harry is indeed the only one who can defeat LV in the end, that doesn't mean the others are not just as important. Harry needs the others to survive until the final showdown, so if *they* quit, the fight against LV would be lost too, Harry or not. Darrin wrote : > So, Harry is the key. Maybe he deserves a bit more respect. Del replies : I deserve respect too. And Harry might be the key, but he's no God, so I won't adore him as such. A good Seeker is crucial for a team to win a Quidditch match, but an outstanding Seeker won't be loved just because he's good, if he acts like a jerk the rest of the time. I'm not saying that Harry is a jerk, but I do say that I don't like him that much, even though I acknowledge his importance in the War. Satisfied ? Del From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 11 12:08:30 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:08:30 -0400 Subject: Harry ending up in Nocturn Alley Message-ID: <029801c44fac$cf97fc70$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100820 I have a theory about why Harry ended up in Nocturn Alley instead of Diagon Alley. My thought on this is this: Could it be that JKR was trying to show us how small a step it is to end up on the darker side of life? Consider how Hagrid and Harry only had to walk a short distance to end up in Diagon Alley. A very small step indeed. Or could it have just been "pure dumb luck!"? Littlekat From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jun 11 15:05:39 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:05:39 -0000 Subject: Harry w/Tom (was Question re "little hint" in Bk 2 and Long Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100821 > Caius Marcius wrote: > "And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." > Why is Harry's initial reaction to Tom Riddle's name so powerfully positive? We have not yet been vouchsafed the slightest clue - was Voldemort in contact with Harry somehow *before* attempting to murder him? This seems to hint at the mysterious mental link between Harry and Voldemort that becomes so prominent in OOP. < Boyd: Interesting one! There's also a discussion going on right now between Kneasy and Jo (sorry if I've left someone out here) about whether Voldemort is some kind of long-lived spirit that possesses its host--in this case, Tom Riddle. (the Long Lived and Vapour!Mort threads) And they've pointed out that during the failed AK of baby Harry, some of LV may have been somehow deflected into Harry, thus creating the mental bond we see in OoP. That train of thought plus yours, Marcius, makes me wonder if.... Suppose Tom were not ESE until possessed by LV in the COS. Perhaps a castoff due to his background and power, perhaps anti-authority like many such children from rough-and-tumble homes, and never shown any love. In a teenage fit of despair/anger, he let in LV, who then possessed him. But NotESE!Tom. Fast forward to Godric's Hollow, where Lily's protection wreaks havoc on PossessedByLV!Tom's AK, causing part of TOM to go into Harry. So what? Well.... 1. Now LV can't kill Harry without killing his current/most recent host (Tom), which would be bad for LV if he needs a host to live through. 2. Now Harry has a part of NotESE!Tom that has been part of him since he was a child--thus the feeling of childhood friendship. 3. DD calls LV Tom to remind Tom that he could defeat LV from within. 4. DD has that gleam in his eye because now part of Harry is also in LV, and together Tom and Harry could overthrow LV from within. 5. But to do so, Harry will need to Legilimens into LV to convince NotESE!Tom that the world (and Tom himself) are worthy of saving. Thus the focus on Occlumency/Legilimens in OoP. Of course, we could then go on to explain how LV will attempt to take over Harry, and Harry will willingly walk through the veil or somesuch to sacrifice himself for the good of others in a very biblical way. But this feels like just one of the many ways JKR could have this play out. Boyd So many possible clues, so little real information. From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Fri Jun 11 12:47:34 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:47:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <6b.2ba992b9.2dfa8826@aol.com> References: <6b.2ba992b9.2dfa8826@aol.com> Message-ID: <829BD566-BBA5-11D8-A3F0-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100822 On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:59 PM, Batchevra at aol.com wrote: > > > Snape left the Pensieve where Harry could get to it, also Snape > showed Harry > that he put his thoughts into it. To someone like Harry who is > curious and > will go to seek information wherever he can find it, to do that stuff > in front of > him was like waving a blanket in front of a bull. Snape should not > have left > the Pensieve where Harry could get to it and shouldn't have put his > thoughts > into it while Harry was there. Snape is an adult. I sense that it's a set up. It is possible that Snape is trying to get out of teaching occlumeny to Harry. In real life, people do play these sorts of games in educational institutions, just to survive. (Teachers can be quite devious. Oh, yes.) And while, Snape doesn?t know that he would be called out during that particular lesson, the chances were more than good that eventually a lesson would be interrupted by an emergency. (With Umbridge at Hogwarts, emergencies are the norm.) It is suspicious that out of all the dangerous memories that an adult spy would want hushed, we find Snape has placed an embarrassing incident from his adolescence. What? Doesn?t he have a score of more dangerous memories? Instead we find an incident that is possibly more disturbing for Harry to witness than embarrassing to Snape to have revealed. To me that was curious. Who's the adult? Snape, for he knows how to end the occulumency lessons, even if Harry can?t figure how to get out of them. Is that a bad thing? Not if Prof. Snape has come to the conclusion Harry's link to LV something beyond traditional occlumency skills. And it may be that these lessons are hurting Harry more than they are helping him. So why blame Harry? Or Prof. Snape? There have been several incidents between Harry and Prof. Snape where it seems that Snape was picking a fight on purpose. More games. It?s as if he wants to make sure that Harry to hates him. The last fight in OoP was timed just as Prof. McGonagall arrives. I think Prof. Snape knows that McGonagall is arriving. I even think that he is on his way out to meet her and help her in. (There is a surprising respect between these two.) He sees that Harry is being ganged up against. He stops the fight. Then he docks points from Harry, but not from he bullies? Is it fair? Perhaps. He saves his image as the loyal Slytherin head of house, but stops any real harm to Harry. Harry gets rebuked for having a bad attitude (however understandable), and McGonagall is given an opportunity to award points to make point situation fairer. Barbara (Ivogun), who is quit curious about Prof. Snape [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SongBird3411 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 12:07:59 2004 From: SongBird3411 at aol.com (SongBird3411 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:07:59 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100823 The ending of the Occlumency lessons is probably the thing that irritates me most in OotP. Every time I read that book and get to that section I just want to scream. I want to shake both Harry and Snape. I confess that I do love Snape. I also completely understand why he would want to quit. Harry commited a serious violation of his privacy. Not to mention Harry's complete lack of desire to learn occlumency. Harry rarely practiced and in point of fact seemed to actively work at letting the visions continue. It would be frustrating to the extreme to keep trying to teach Harry if he was going to ignore most of it. That violation of privacy though is compelling. I would think most teachers would find it hard to work privately with student's who had committed such a violation. That said, I sincerely wish Snape had continued anyway. He knew how important it was. He knew the stakes. But that inevitably leads me to the question: Why then didn't Snape continue? I find it hard to believe he would purposely endanger Harry that way. And other people in the Order knew that Snape had stopped. Didn't any of them convince him to continue? I am so frustrated about this. I don't know if JKR means to explain this further, but I certainly hope she does. Just so you know, I hold Harry equally responsible. He knew what was at stake. He is specifically told that Voldemort can use that connection to manipulate him. Yet, he doesn't practice, doesn't try very hard at the lessons, and pretty much blows off anyone who suggests he should be trying harder. He develops something of a hero complex. If he can see the visions, then he can save people. Despite being told that Voldemort can use the images to manipulate him. Harry just seems to disregard that information. Until it is too late. I normally love both Harry and Snape. However, this incident is the one that makes me the most irritated with both of them. BTW, I place very little blame on Snape for Sirius's death. I too place that blame on the DE's, Voldemort, Sirius himself, a bit of Dumbledore, a little bit of Harry, and a smidgeon of Snape. Mindy From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jun 11 15:13:24 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:13:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <42.503d1753.2dfb2614@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100824 In a message dated 6/10/2004 10:00:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > "You don't get it!" Harry shouted at her. "I'm not having nightmares, I am > not just dreaming! What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you > think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing those things? Because they are > REAL" -OOP, p.734 > > Nobody bothered to tell Harry that the main reason for occlumency was > to prevent Voldie from planting FALSE visions in his mind. > > > And even though Hermione screaches that it could have been just a > dream, she does not say that it could have been a false vision. No > wonder that Harry is not prepared to listen. I think this bit is key. Harry's 'visions' from LV have NEVER been f alse in the past. DD obliquely confirmed this when he mentioned the death of Frank Brice. Snape also confirmed it when he referenced the room where LV met with Rookwood. Snape tells Harry that LV might be able to get info from him, might be able to influence him. Harry, relieved that he's not being possessed, does ask if LV could influence him, but doesn't seem to put much credence into the theory. It is at this point that Snape fails, not later when he ends the classes. How? A quote: "But why does Professor Dumbledore want to stop it?" he asked abruptly. "I don't like it much, but it's been useful, hasn't it? I mean...I saw that snake attack Mr. Weasley and if I hadn't, Professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would he? Sir?" Snape then goes into an explanation of LV's discovery of the mind-link..and an argument about the proper term for LV. Why didn't he follow up with something like "Because, you arrogant idiot, he's skilled enough to send FALSE visions to lure you, your overly loyal friends, and the Order into a trap!" Then follow by demonstrating just HOW to send a false vision. I'm quite certain Snape could do that. Harry had NO idea that such false visions could have been sent, and neither did Hermione. She thinks it could have been a dream, but I think she does believe Harry's seen the truth, however odd the situation, or she would have said the vision might be fake. But, I'm not saying Snape was wholly to blame for what happened. I feel that the blame for the entire incident is quite evenly spread out amongst the whole crew. DD's misjudgments on the Snape/Harry relationship, Harry's total mistrust [and fear] of Snape, the stress of being thought a liar and madman, Snape's seeing James in Harry, all added up to disaster. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 15:14:37 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:14:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611151437.33933.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100825 Dear Friends, one and all, I?ve been following the controversy about whether we love or hate Harry with avid interest. I hope I may be permitted to throw my point of view into the stew. I?m very strongly of the opinion that the story of Harry Potter is not a normal children?s book, but an allegory of the triumph of goodness, truth and justice shining into this world from Supernature. What I?m trying to say is symbolised by the hippogriff. On earth it?s a clumsy, greedy and quite egocentric being. Listen to John Williams? music as the hippogriff takes off: loud, awkward, harsh drumbeats. But as soon as the beast spreads its glorious wings it transforms into a sublime being of angelic beauty. The drumbeat stops and exhilarating music illustrates the ever higher soaring far above the earth with all its petty problems of good and evil. We see everything in a new perspective and are captivated by breathtaking scenery and a feeling of liberation. Friends, if you can hold that short scene from the film in your minds you can perhaps understand what I?m trying to say. The transformation of the ?horse? part of the animal to the ?griffin? part is in my opinion the purpose of the Harry Potter book in seven volumes. What the book is saying is that we all have the potential to transform from a horse to a griffin; we all have the ability to take a run up and ascend into the sky and be released from the things that hold us tied down. In agreement with John Granger I?ve often described this process as Alchemy. Call it what you like; that?s not important. The important thing is that Supernature has always been calling humanity to rise up and liberate itself for millions of years. In brilliant contrast to 9-11 we have a new call from Supernature for humanity to transform from the hippo (horse) to the griff(in). THIS IS MY POINT: to make millions of people read this story, it?s been disguised as a children?s tale with all the genial characteristics that we all admire so much. How can I explain what I mean? You can look at the hippogriff and see just a clumsy animal that can walk or fly. But if we start using our faculty of reasoning coupled with a thirst for rising above the mundane, we can see that the hippogriff can symbolise the things I?ve said above. Another way to explain it might be this. You?re walking through a maze with red tinted glasses on (you, not the maze). On your way you will see only the green things. A person behind you is walking with green tinted glasses on. He will see a totally different maze. He will see only the red things. If you question the two people afterwards you will get two totally different experiences. Yet they both walked the same route. This is I think where people are getting their different points of view. I know Harry Potter is a book that can be read on many levels, but to simplify things, let?s say there?s only two: the superficial story of a boy who goes to a school of wizardry - full stop - just a story and we take everything literally. And then there?s the totally symbolical instructions on how to transform from a clumsy earthbound quadruped to a angelic being soaring through great beauty. I guess most people in this group are somewhere in the middle ? seeing the story literally but also conceding that things can symbolise abstract concepts. I think people like Darren and Del are at loggerheads because they?re wearing differently coloured glasses. What they?re saying is quite sincere and true for them. But they?re talking about a different Harry Potter. They?re both right because they?re not reading the books the same way. I?m convinced that the more people can see HP as a symbolical process of transformation, the more they?ll understand what the books are trying to say. May I modestly remind you that my predictions for book 5 came true? Just one last point: Kneasy recently said something about me seeing everything Harry did out of love, or something like that. (Kneasy, correct me). Once again, differently coloured glasses. If we see Harry as a teenage boy and interpret his actions literally, OK I agree, some of the things he does are completely wrong; for example reading Filch?s letter (part 2?). But if we see Harry as an aspect of OURSELVES in the quest for the transformation, we can see that he indeed is a child of love in our own heart. Obviously to make the story the success it is, Jo has had to make Harry very human, complete with faults and teenage hormones and even hatred. That?s the literal version. But when we see Harry as the Golden Griffin (Gryffin d?or) struggling within us to fly away into the celestial regions, we love Harry with our whole heart and mind. Then we can excuse his faults as just literary devices to make him so identifiable with ?everyman? as a flawed human being. Just a thought (with acknowledgements to Steve) Hans in Holland --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 11 15:14:45 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:14:45 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about > Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am > not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have > not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > And this gives me the chance to post one of my other moderately > infamous rants, which my young friend Talia Dawn will remember. > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. > > They aren't the underdogs. They aren't misunderstood. They aren't > just waiting for a big old hug from some goth teen to redeem them. > > They are thinly veiled cariactures of Nazis and KKK and Hitler Youth > rolled into one. > > I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, > but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." > > Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." > > So maybe I give Harry more slack than other characters. Not only > because he has gone through more grief at a younger age than any > other character -- I'll grant that Snape was bullied in school, but > did he have to fend off a version of V-Mort four times in five > years? -- but because at the core, he's the guy to root for. > > Darrin OK, let's look at a few points. First we'll tackle Snape. So far as I'm aware, no one thinks that Sevvy is a role model to look up to. He's nasty, vicious, was a DE and he nurses his grudges like there's no tomorrow. But I like him as a fictional character. Every time a new book comes out I look forward to seeing how abominably he's going to act this time round. An engaging baddy is hard to find these days; mostly they're caricatures like Voldy, ranting and raving and chewing the scenery. Snape is a believable baddy, if indeed he is as bad as *Harry* sees him. This despite the fact that he's saved Harry's neck before now, and Harry knows it. Maybe that's something Harry can't forgive, just like Snape with James. Others including DD see Snape differently. Who knows more? Harry or DD? Slytherins. Slytherins aren't the WW equivalent of Nazis, KKK or whatever, DEs are. DEs *choose* to be acolytes of a murdering monster, Slytherins are *chosen* by a hat, mostly because they are assessed as ambitious and cunning. Not the same thing at all. The pureblood thing is misleading; it's already been pointed out in canon that the idea of 'pureblood' is laughable. And there is evidence that Slytherin has accepted others anyway; Tom Riddle for sure, Millicent Bulstrode, probably. "Not a single witch or wizard went bad who wasn't in Slytherin." So said Hagrid. Sure, tell that to James and Lily when Peter betrayed them. To some on this site, Harry is well-nigh perfect. He can do no wrong. When something goes pear-shaped then it must be someone else's fault. Funny, that's what Harry always seems to say, too. He may well be the eponymous hero of the books, but that doesn't mean that he's faultless. He isn't. He's frequently disobedient, occasionally rash to the point of stupidity, obviously considers that privacy in regard to other peoples affairs is a quaint and outmoded concept that doesn't apply to him, lies when it suits his purposes and he's not averse to hexing Malfoy and his pals before they have a chance to get their wands out, but only when out-numbering them. It seems that while he inherited his eyes from Lily, he inherited other things from James. Add on bloody-minded stubborness and petulence and you've got a something a lot less than perfect. Others claim that he's a great wizard. Not yet, he isn't. Hermione is much better at spellwork. About the only thing he could do that other students of his age couldn't was the Patronus! spell. We'd have had a better assessment of his capabilities if Lupin had taught her at the same time, but it's noticable that the members of Dumbledore's Army managed to pick it up without too much difficulty, despite being taught by an amateur. He's come out on top against Voldy every time, but only through the agency of something beyond his control - Lily's protection, Fawkes, a conflict of wands, Dumbledore. If it weren't for those he'd be toast. The more some of the fans praise Harry to the skies and brush over his failings, the more other posters will point out that this is a biased picture, not a true and accurate representation. OK, so you're a Harry fan, good for you; you're entitled. But pretending he's something he isn't does him no favours. Kneasy From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 14:53:00 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Long lived In-Reply-To: <6BDE845A-BAF8-11D8-B023-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <20040611145300.37023.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100827 Kneasy: >>If Tom is Voldy, pure and simple, I can't. But I don't believe he is; Voldy is Tom plus something else IMO, something that was in the Chamber. Something that had been hanging around, tapping it's foot, waiting for somebody like Tom to turn up and be possessed and do it's bidding. Something that in form is very like the vapour of the Vapour!Mort formed after Godrics Hollow and Crumble!Quirrell. It wasn't a spell that created the vaprous entity - that was it's natural form; take away the body it's possessing and that's what's left. It'll hang around, weakened until it finds another victim. And it's damn near immortal; as DD says "Not being truly alive he cannot be killed" (PS chap 17) And unrepentantly evil to boot.<< I like this theory. Suppose when SS built the chamber - or even when he got the idea for it - he was possessed by the vapor. ESE!vapor was there before the school was built and SS happened on to it. Remember, the origional 4 were good friends and shared an ideal. Later, after the school was founded, did things begin to go sour. SS was not ESE!SS until after ESE!vapor possessed him. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:16:53 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:16:53 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > I'm sure there are those who would find fault with me saying this, > but the books are titled "Harry Potter and..." > > Not "Draco Malfoy and..." Or "Severus Snape and..." It seems to me that "they" are getting far more out of the books than those who are reading them on a surface level only and taking everything at face value. Harry/Gryff = Good Draco/Slyth = Bad The trouble is, you see, that the author of these books sets that idea on it's head in the first installment with Dumbledore's little speech about "choices". The trouble is, you see, that the author of these books continues to turn this concept on its head throughout the series. Who's the bad guy in PoA? Sirius Black. Until the last few chapters, that is. If you choose to read only the surface story of the books, and you enjoy that, then more power to you. But your utter disregard for and unwillingness to try to understand anyone who chooses to dig deeper is more telling of you than of anyone else. Looking for 'more' in a story or trying to suss out a character's motives is a *far cry* from "cheering for the bad guys". Was anyone turning page after page in PoA HOPING Sirius would find and kill Harry, just like we were all 'told' he was planning to do? I think not. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:16:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:16:50 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100829 Darrin wrote : > I don't see people as rooting for Slytherin redemption. To do so > would be to admit they need redeemed, and we haven't even gotten > that far yet. Del replies : The Slytherin *kids* can't need redemption, since they haven't done anything horrible yet. Name-calling and bullying aren't such horrible things as to need redemption. Darrin wrote : > Apologizing for behavior while trying to drag down Harry's behaviors > to some level of moral equivalency -- He was mean to the Creevey > boys, so Draco can call Hermione a mudblood if he wants -- is not > hoping for redemption. Del replies : I think you're referring to one of my posts when you mention the Creevey brothers. But nowhere in my posts will you find such reasoning as the one you just gave : A does evil, so B can too. Please don't mix everything together. Darrin wrote : > To have that, we'd have to have admission that the Slyths are > wrong. :) Del replies : And for the Slytherins to be wrong, they would need to know good from evil. Even Harry doesn't always get that one right, and he's in Gryffindor, and he's got all the right role-models. The Slytherins are sticking to their values, the ones that have been taught to them, the ones they think are being attacked. What's wrong with that ? At the end of OoP, Draco says to Harry "You can't put my dad in prison". Obviously, Draco still hasn't figured out that there's MUCH more than his petty little disputes with Harry at stake. After all, when the Trio puts up the DA, they have to fight to get into the heads of their fellow students that this is about something much bigger than a DADA club or getting some kind of revenge over Umbridge. At first, nobody understands the scope of the fight they are getting into. LV is still an abstract concept for them at first. And I think it's the same for the Slytherin kids : they still haven't figured out what is *really* going on. And how could they, since noone's telling them ? Or at least, noone on the right side... Del From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 15:17:57 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:57 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100830 > > > > Maybe there is some hidden, "good Slytherin" kid out there, but JKR hasn't chosen to show us yet. We must go with what we have. > > Del replies : > But wasn't it one the main lessons of the Pensieve Incident, that > people can change ? James was a total jerk at 15, but he changed. Why can't we grant the same right to those Slytherin kids ? > When one does change, I will change my opinion of them. James was also a jerk, but he wasn't a racist jerk. I actually look forward to the day some as-yet-unnamed Slytherin kid stands up and says, "Draco, QUIT MAKING US ALL LOOK LIKE GITS!" Maybe it'll happen now that Lucius is in jail, but until it does, I'm assuming the Slyths either agree with Draco or are too cowed by him to stand up. Either way, they are the ones that need to show it. So they agree or are cowards. Forgive me if I don't cheer. > Darrin wrote : > > And right now, the House of Slytherin is V-Mort's prime training > > ground for DEs. Will he get all of them? No, but he'll get enough to > > keep the movement going, and even those who don't join openly > > sympathize with V-Mort in spirit. > > Del replies : > Oh I agree there, and that makes me only more angry towards the good > guys :-) The adults know what happened the first time around, how LV > went recruiting among the Slytherin kids, so why aren't they doing > anything to prevent that from happening again ?? DD is letting the > kids choose their side again, but he should know that the Slytherin > kids have been fed hate and anger and that their judgement is bound to be altered. Short of taking them away from their parents -- not a bad idea, really -- I'm not sure what D-Dore can do. He gave them a "tough love" lesson in book one, saying that courage and love are worth more than deceit and trickery by giving Harry and the gang points. (Ah, I remember a thread castigating D-Dore for that, as if what Slytherin kids need is MORE pampering and being told they are right.) And if they do need that? Slytherins won the House Cup for years before Harry showed up and they won Quidditch a bunch too. You can't say that House Slytherin gets no success at Hogwarts. D-Dore is setting an example by being welcoming to all. Muggle-borns, half-giants, werewolves. The very fact that there IS still a House Slytherin speaks volumes. Unless there is some magical binding contract that prevents old Sal's line from being kicked out on their butts, one would think that there would be massive temptation to just dissolve the house and put the kids somewhere else. And these are not refugees who haven't been accepted by anyone else. Remember, these are the children of priviledge. Most of them, if not all of them (besides V-Mort) are pureblood, which means they are upper-crust in many eyes. The Slyths are the jocks, prom queens, rich kids, trend-setters, arbiters of status and harpies. They are NOT the Square Pegs, nerds, geeks, goths, skateboarders, punks, rebels, or any other picked on group in school. Let's go to real life for a minute. Picture a kid who is poor, or maybe struggling with his or her sexuality, or not as smart, or smart but not athletic, or with a single parent, or with a stutter. Do you REALLY believe that child is welcome among people like the Slytherins you've seen? So, let us not blame Dumbledore for failing to overcome the maliciousness of parents like Lucius Malfoy and the rest of the DE dads. Any teacher will tell you that you can only go so far. > > Del replies : > Speculation. > Yep, Harry met people, lucky for him. Once again, it all comes down to luck. Harry was lucky to meet the right people at the right time in > order to get a vague idea that he didn't want to be in Slytherin. > You said it. I didn't. "The right people." Harry did meet the right people, the non-Slyths. Good thing for us, or else there might not be a series of books. > Darrin wrote : > > I'm sure facing V-Mort is a bed of roses in some eyes, but four > > times in five years? With a horde of dementors thrown in for good > > measure? > > Del replies : > Once again, you're being disrespectful. > And what I meant is not that it isn't hard to face LV, just that it's> not necessarily the only hard thing, nor the hardest one, onecan > face. What will break you can be a breeze for me and vice versa. > I'm only disrespectful when I see semantic games being played for the sake of holding on to threads of arguments. If you want to keep arguing that facing V-Mort four times in five years, alone in three of the cases (books one, two and four and outnumbered in four) is something that someone else besides Harry might find a breeze (what will break you can be a breeze for me) then maybe we should just end it. Because I'm not going to pretend to respect that just for the sake of civility. > > Darrin wrote : > > He puts others before him. Just one more thing to love about the > > kid, but I suppose since I've said that, you will instantly find > > something else to hate about him to balance the scales. > > Del replies : > You're getting annoying with your derisive irony, Darrin. > What? You admitted you hated Harry just because others liked him. I figured that if I piled on the like, you'd pile on the hate, since it was an equal and opposite reaction. :) Maybe we should just agree to disagree and leave each other be. Because I don't think you'll be satisfied with the "respect" I give. Darrin From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:09:47 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (silvr23dragon) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:09:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100831 > > Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > > > > Sirius explained to the Trio in GoF that Snape knew more curses > than any other kid upon his arrival to Hogwarts. Maybe Sirius knew > that from childhood experiences with Snape. If Snape was known to > be a nasty kid and Sirius, as a child, was already displaying the > traits of a Gryffindor, I can imagine the tensions between the two > starting even earlier than Hogwarts. > > snip I was curious about this too. Perhaps James knew Snape before Hogwarts. As you said, we already know that the pureblood families are all interrelated. Since harry is supposedly like Voldemort, half and half, then could we assume that James was a pure blood wizard? And if we could, then wouldn't it be very possible for him to be related to Snape? The Pensieve scene in the OotP reminded me with the way my brothers were a long time ago, at around the same age. They hated each other. They were always fighting and it was not because either had done anything particular. It was just because they were there. Now I am not saying that Snape and James were that closely related, but that somehow they knew each other in their youth. And if their personailties were similar at earlier ages, then James would still have been more popular than Snape, and thus causing animosity between the two? From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:25:39 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:25:39 -0000 Subject: Snape once again puts 2 & 2 together & comes up with wrong answer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100833 Susan wrote: If Snape was going to do anything even remotely redemptive in Harry's_ eyes, Snape's motivation for doing such would have nothing to do with actual redemption. It would concern his own reasons for either hating LV or sucking up to DD or getting recognition from the MoM, etc. The Slytherine Way. The only thing that bothers me about this is that it goes back to the pure speculation that LV did something *personally* to Snape, which seems to inevitably bring us back to him having a family or love life and of course, the twins;-), which I just cannot picture. I totally agree that there obviously has to be some kind of motivation for Snape to stop being a DE, and I can't wait to find out what that is... vmonte responds: I keep thinking about how JKR likes to trick us with mistaken identity. Harry sees himself at the lake in PoA but he misunderstands what he sees. He thinks he sees his father. We've had fake Moody, Harry as James, Harry and Ron as Crab and Goyle, etc. She will probably do this again. James and Lily are both dead--there's no doubt about this. Their echos both come out of Voldemort's wand. If Harry goes back in time things are not going to work out the way he wants them to. Hermione's comments about wizards killing their future and past selves may come true--and I'm not just talking about Harry. What if other people follow Harry to GH. Also, we already have a shape shifter (Tonks) in the series. What if she is evil (or what if there is another as yet unknown DE metamorph). They could go back in time and mislead Harry by morphing into someone he loves or by morphing into 18 year old Harry and really mess things up... Also, I've been thinking about Sirius remark to Snape in the Shreiking Shack. Something about: 'As usual Snape, you've put two and two together and have come up with the wrong answer.' What if Snape had to make sure that Harry lived up until the point he goes back in time to GH. What if 45 year old Snape followed Harry back. And what if Snape needs to go back to correct a mistake that happened that night. He may not have access to time-travel until Harry goes back. What if Snape put two and two together that night and accidently killed his future self (or made some other huge mistake). You know the explosion at GH really does seem like someone was trying to cover up something. Did they find body parts there? Could the hand of Glory be belong to someone that was at GH? From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 15:29:40 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:29:40 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100834 Melacros > The trouble is, you see, that the author of these books continues to turn this concept on its head throughout the series. Who's the bad > guy in PoA? Sirius Black. Until the last few chapters, that is. Wrong. Sirius Black was never the bad guy. He just was waiting for proof that he wasn't. False comparison. Sirius never changed sides. He didn't undergo a character change. More facts came in and we learned more about him. Pettigrew never changed. Neither did Crouch Jr. We just learned more about him. And if McGonagall, Lupin or someone else turns out to be a traitor, that character won't have change. We'll just have learned all the facts. So, using this to somehow show that people can change is not right. If information comes out in books 6 or 7 explaining Snape, revealing the existence of another Slytherin mole, or some such, then of course we will deal with that information as it comes. > If you choose to read only the surface story of the books, and you > enjoy that, then more power to you. But your utter disregard for and unwillingness to try to understand anyone who chooses to dig deeper is more telling of you than of anyone else. I don't define "digging deeper" as making a moral equivalency between Harry's rule-breaking (done almost always in the name of a greater good) and Draco's rule-breaking (done almost always to torture, bully, or even attempt to maim and murder.) I define that as attempting to drag down the hero for reasons unknown. I don't define "digging deeper" as apologizing for one character while magnifying other character's flaws. Snape and Harry are not equals. One is older, wiser, in a position of power and one is a teenager who has been marked for death. Expecting them to behave equally is ridiculous. I see words like "I hate Harry" or "I hate Sirius" and I don't define that as getting something deeper or more meaningful out of the books. They are just getting something that fits their own worldview. Please, don't elevate contrariness to some form of insight. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 15:37:16 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:37:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100835 > I was curious about this too. Perhaps James knew Snape > before Hogwarts. As you said, we already know that the > pureblood families are all interrelated. Since harry is > supposedly like Voldemort, half and half, then could we assume > that James was a pure blood wizard? And if we could, then > wouldn't it be very possible for him to be related to Snape? The > Pensieve scene in the OotP reminded me with the way my > brothers were a long time ago, at around the same age. They > hated each other. They were always fighting and it was not > because either had done anything particular. It was just > because they were there. Now I am not saying that Snape and > James were that closely related, but that somehow they knew > each other in their youth. And if their personailties were similar > at earlier ages, then James would still have been more popular > than Snape, and thus causing animosity between the two? I'm seeing an opportunity to inject one of my favorite ludicrous theories! The theory of House Switching. There are five boys in one Gryff room this year. Harry, Ron, Neville, Dean and Seamus. It's pretty logical to assume that James, Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew were roommates. Their level of friendship, the time needed to learn animagus together, their discovery of Lupin's secret, all indicate not only the same house, but the same room. Now, the simplest explanation is that there were only four Gryff boys in that year. Maybe that's even more logical because it was the height of V-Mort and people were in hiding or some kids, sadly, were dead already. BUT WHAT IF... there WERE five? And one was Severus Snape, sorted proudly into Gryffindor. Until something, maybe a love of Dark Arts, maybe jealousy over Lily, maybe a major falling out with Sirius, made life so intolerable in that room that D-Dore had to step in and separate Snape from the Marauders. Snape was allowed to be re-sorted. If the hat bases the house selection on choice as much as ability -- as seen not only with Harry, but Draco, who was under the hat for .349 seconds before it said Slytherin -- then how do we allow for changing of minds? Poke holes as you will. I'm not sure I believe it myself. :) Darrin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:41:18 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:41:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > The theory of House Switching. > > There are five boys in one Gryff room this year. Harry, Ron, Neville, > Dean and Seamus. > > It's pretty logical to assume that James, Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew > were roommates. Their level of friendship, the time needed to learn > animagus together, their discovery of Lupin's secret, all indicate > not only the same house, but the same room. > > Now, the simplest explanation is that there were only four Gryff > boys in that year. Maybe that's even more logical because it was the > height of V-Mort and people were in hiding or some kids, sadly, were > dead already. > > BUT WHAT IF... there WERE five? > > And one was Severus Snape, sorted proudly into Gryffindor. > > Until something, maybe a love of Dark Arts, maybe jealousy over Lily, > maybe a major falling out with Sirius, made life so intolerable in > that room that D-Dore had to step in and separate Snape from the > Marauders. > > Snape was allowed to be re-sorted. > > If the hat bases the house selection on choice as much as ability -- > as seen not only with Harry, but Draco, who was under the hat > for .349 seconds before it said Slytherin -- then how do we allow for > changing of minds? > > Poke holes as you will. I'm not sure I believe it myself. :) > > Darrin Darrin, actually I share your ludicrous assumption to the point. :o) I believe that Snape was in Gryffindor and never switched houses. "Run with the gang of Slytherins" does not equal "was in Slytherin" If Snape was number five in the dormitory, him folowwing Marauders makes more sense than if he was in Slytherin. He wanted to be their friend, they did not like him. Alla From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 11 15:42:21 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:42:21 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100837 Kneasy: > Others claim that he's a great wizard. Not yet, he isn't. Hermione is much > better at spellwork. About the only thing he could do that other students > of his age couldn't was the Patronus! spell. We'd have had a better > assessment of his capabilities if Lupin had taught her at the same time, > but it's noticable that the members of Dumbledore's Army managed to > pick it up without too much difficulty, despite being taught by an amateur. > > He's come out on top against Voldy every time, but only through the > agency of something beyond his control - Lily's protection, Fawkes, > a conflict of wands, Dumbledore. If it weren't for those he'd be toast. Jen: But, that's the beauty of Harry! He *can't* do it alone, much as he sometimes tries. He has the whole laundry list of negative traits you mentioned above Kneasy, but he's more than his list of failings. Unlike LV, Harry is able to call on and receive help when he needs it most. He doesn't need to be a great wizard to defeat Voldemort. Like in GOF at the graveyard scene, with the Phoenix song. FBAWTFT says: "Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure." Harry is no match for LV alone, he's not the greatest wizard ever, he's got some character flaws, but he *is* pure of heart and therefore brings forth the very thing needed to save him. You like Sevvy as a fictional character because he's not a caricature and is a believable 'baddie'. Well, Harry's a believable goodie. He's not a caricature hero, riding in on his white horse to save the day. He's a flawed human who occasionally manages to save the day, but only through his innate ability to find what he needs, when he needs it. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 15:46:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:46:14 -0000 Subject: Go to your rooms! Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100838 I've snipped this post because I'm responding to all of them. I'm not a List elf. But I am a Mom. And I'll bet I'm older than just about everybody on this list. So I'm stepping in! This thread is no longer a friendly thought provoking place. So, take a deep breath calm down and play nicely. Or go to your room! Potioncat From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jun 11 15:47:29 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:47:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <159.375857ff.2dfb2e11@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100839 In a message dated 6/11/2004 11:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, miamibarb at BellSouth.net writes: > I sense that it's a set up. It is possible that Snape is trying to > get out of teaching occlumeny to Harry. In real life, people do play > these sorts of games Interesting thought. Hm. > It is suspicious that out of all the dangerous memories that an adult spy > would want hushed, we find Snape has placed an embarrassing incident > from his adolescence. What? Doesn?t he have a score of more dangerous > memories? Instead we find an incident that is possibly more disturbing > for Harry to witness than embarrassing to Snape to have revealed. And, note, it was not the 'Prank', either. Yes, Harry would be embarrassed to see what his dad was like at 15, but surely, Snape's worst memory of his school years was not the one Harry stumbled across. > To me that was curious. Who's the adult? Snape, for he knows how to end > the occulumency lessons, even if Harry can?t figure how to get out of > them. Is that a bad thing? Not if Prof. Snape has come to the > conclusion Harry's link to LV something beyond traditional occlumency > skills. And it may be that these lessons are hurting Harry more than > they are helping him. So why blame Harry? Or Prof. Snape? I also wonder about why the lessons seemed to do more damage, but I believe that DD also says something to this: that is was a mistake not to have taught Harry himself, but that he was "sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence---" So, perhaps, the opening to outside visions was a part of the process, ment to be cancled out by the strengthening of the shields occulumency was to provide. > There have been several incidents between Harry and Prof. Snape where > it seems that Snape was picking a fight on purpose. More games. It?s > as if he wants to make sure that Harry to hates him. The last fight in > OoP was timed just as Prof. McGonagall arrives. I think Prof. Snape > knows that McGonagall is arriving. I even think that he is on his way > out to meet her and help her in. (There is a surprising respect > between these two.) He sees that Harry is being ganged up against. He > stops the fight. Then he docks points from Harry, but not from he > bullies? Is it fair? Perhaps. He saves his image as the loyal > Slytherin head of house, but stops any real harm to Harry. Harry gets > rebuked for having a bad attitude (however understandable), and > McGonagall is given an opportunity to award points to make point > situation fairer. I don't think he knew she was arriving. I think he'd planned on finding a way to resume the lessons. No points left? "In that case, Potter, we will simply have to--" How was he going to finish that if McGonagall hadn't spoken? Give you detention? Then use the 'detention' to resume the lessons? makes sense to me. For all the blame and self-blame that's been cast for the 'vision' incident and it's ramifications, we haven't seen Snape's reactions. He hated Sirius, a given. he'd have gleefully turned Sirius over to the Dementors. He loved tormenting Sirius. He KNEW how important Sirius was to Harry, to the Order. There's been a lot of talk about Snape's emotional immaturity. I think he's had a shock that may help him grow. I wish he'd drop dead is a common kids wish. Should it actually happen, though, they often will never forgive themselves. I think Snape was trying to repair the damage to Harry, in his own, inimitable, Snapeish way. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 15:52:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:52:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100840 Darrin wrote: > > > > Poke holes as you will. I'm not sure I believe it myself. :) > > > > Darrin > > Alla wrote: > I believe that Snape was in Gryffindor and never switched houses. Potioncat: I believe McGonagall was in Slytherin and Snape was in Gryffindor and that's part of their rivalry now. Well, maybe not. ;-) Actually I think Snape was in Slytherin, but I think canon's vague enough for your idea to be reasonable. Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:54:41 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:54:41 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100841 Darrin wrote: > I'm assuming the Slyths either agree with Draco or are too cowed by > him to stand up. Either way, they are the ones that need to show it. > > So they agree or are cowards. Forgive me if I don't cheer. Del replies : I see we have a different take on trust. I first believe in people, and then stop when they prove untrustworthy. You first want the Slytherins to prove trustworthy before you trust them. Why not, it's your right, but it makes cooperation between the Houses harder. Oh, and maybe they don't *care*, all those silent Slytherins ? They already know that they have a bad reputation no matter what, so maybe they don't care anymore. Darrin wrote : > And if they do need that? Slytherins won the House Cup for years > before Harry showed up and they won Quidditch a bunch too. You can't > say that House Slytherin gets no success at Hogwarts. Del replies : Academic and sports success, quite logical, for an ambitious House. But they are hated for those successes. Darrin wrote : > The very fact that there IS still a House Slytherin speaks volumes. > Unless there is some magical binding contract that prevents old > Sal's line from being kicked out on their butts, one would think > that there would be massive temptation to just dissolve the house > and put the kids somewhere else. Del replies : I agree. I've been wondering about that. And the most logical conclusion is that Slytherin House is NOT a bad House. Something went wrong somewhere. Darrin wrote : > And these are not refugees who haven't been accepted by anyone else. > Remember, these are the children of priviledge. Most of them, if not > all of them (besides V-Mort) are pureblood, which means they are > upper-crust in many eyes. > > The Slyths are the jocks, prom queens, rich kids, trend-setters, > arbiters of status and harpies. They are NOT the Square Pegs, nerds, > geeks, goths, skateboarders, punks, rebels, or any other picked on > group in school. Del replies : That's a bit of speculation. Being pureblood doesn't guarantee status : just look at the Weasleys. And nowhere do we see the Slytherins being popular and upper-crust. Just because Draco is rich and famous doesn't mean his whole House is. You're extrapolating with very little basis. Darrin wrote : > Let's go to real life for a minute. Picture a kid who is poor, or > maybe struggling with his or her sexuality, or not as smart, or > smart but not athletic, or with a single parent, or with a stutter. > > Do you REALLY believe that child is welcome among people like the > Slytherins you've seen? Del replies : For that matter, that kid wouldn't be nicely treated by the Gryffindors either. Look at Neville. Another Pureblood by the way. Darrin wrote : > So, let us not blame Dumbledore for failing to overcome the > maliciousness of parents like Lucius Malfoy and the rest of the DE > dads. > > Any teacher will tell you that you can only go so far. Del replies : I don't think it helps to have someone like Snape as Head of House either... I, Del, said : > > Yep, Harry met people, lucky for him. Once again, it all comes > > down to luck. Harry was lucky to meet the right people at the > > right time in order to get a vague idea that he didn't want to be > > in Slytherin. Darrin replied : > You said it. I didn't. "The right people." > > Harry did meet the right people, the non-Slyths. Good thing for us, > or else there might not be a series of books. Del replies : As a matter of fact, it could be argued that the single person who most influenced Harry as to his choice of House was... Draco Malfoy. Harry wished to be with Ron, he wished to avoid Hermione if possible, but he sure didn't want to be with Draco. And when his turn came to be sorted, he already knew that Hermione was in Gryffindor and Draco in Slytherin, but not that Ron would end up in Gryffindor. Hence his *only* desire : not to be in Slytherin. Thanks to Draco. Darrin wrote : > If you want to keep arguing that facing V-Mort four times in five > years, alone in three of the cases (books one, two and four and > outnumbered in four) is something that someone else besides Harry > might find a breeze (what will break you can be a breeze for me) > then maybe we should just end it. Because I'm not going to pretend > to respect that just for the sake of civility. Del replies : You're not trying to understand what I'm telling you. I NEVER said that it isn't hard what Harry went through. In other words : HARRY WENT THROUGH HELL BECAUSE OF LV. All right ? BUT !!!! We just don't know that other people didn't go through their own hell for other reasons. *That* was the original discussion : that Harry isn't necessarily the only one who's suffered badly. Darrin wrote : > What? You admitted you hated Harry just because others liked him. I > figured that if I piled on the like, you'd pile on the hate, since > it was an equal and opposite reaction. :) Del replies : I'm not a robot, Darrin. And I do NOT hate Harry. What I DO hate is the way some people present him as a saint. Big difference. Darrin wrote : > Maybe we should just agree to disagree and leave each other be. > Because I don't think you'll be satisfied with the "respect" I give. Del replies : Ah, you *finally* get it, do you :-) ? "to agree to disagree" is almost the most basic rule on this list. It's only when you broke it by complaining that some people didn't like Harry that I jumped in. Now that we've settled things again, I'll let you worship Harry, and you'll let me not like him, all right :-) ? Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:59:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:59:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Darrin wrote: > > > > > > Poke holes as you will. I'm not sure I believe it myself. :) > > > > > > Darrin > > > > > Alla wrote: > > I believe that Snape was in Gryffindor and never switched houses. > > > Potioncat: > I believe McGonagall was in Slytherin and Snape was in Gryffindor > and that's part of their rivalry now. Well, maybe not. ;-) > > Actually I think Snape was in Slytherin, but I think canon's vague > enough for your idea to be reasonable. > Potioncat Alla: Hey, voice of reason. :o) Do you know what I think may happen at the end , if all parties involved will survive of course. If we assume that Snape will continue teaching. (Gasp of horror :o)). he may become the Head of ...Gryffindor. If Minerva will become the Headmistress in Dumbledore's place. Alla From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 16:03:23 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:03:23 -0000 Subject: WW Technology V Muggle Technology In-Reply-To: <002201c44f19$3fdc5ec0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100843 > Stephen Flynn wrote: > >This is my first post so please bear with me. I was looking through > >some back postings and I saw one on the above topic and I do believe > >that WW technology is better than Muggle technology. Simply put why > >fix something that is not broken. There is less risk to an > >individual and to the environment. Does anyone have an opinion on > >this? > > > Ffred wrote: > My first comment is that the WW wouldn't understand the word "technology" > here: it's not so much a matter of two different technologies, but of > fundamentally different approaches to the same need. In the WW, wizards use > charms, potions, spells, and so on to carry out the relevant processes of > production for which Muggles use technology. > But having said all that, there do seem to be advantages in using magic > rather than technology. First of all, using charms and spells seems to > remove a great deal of the drudgery and hard labour that Muggles have to > use. no > need for heavy labour, Susan (teilani) now: In trying my hand at fanfic, I've been wondering exactly what people like Molly Weasley do all day. She doesn't have a job. Granted, she has kids, but even the youngest of them is at Hogwarts for months at a time. Once she's swished and flicked her wand a few times and gotten the dishes to wash themselves, the beds to make themselves, the Christmas sweaters knitting themselves, what does she do? Does she have to supervise as the dishes magically wash themselves? Probably not. So, all the household shores are probably done before noon. What now? Another question I have re: the Weasleys, magic, and money, though it's not related to this post so much, is how does money affect the size/condition of their house? If a wizard can just magically add a new floor or room or bath with a hot tub, what difference does it make how much money they have? (I got this impression because of the way the Burrow is described). Who would they pay for these things anyways? It's not like they'd need to hire a contractor. I get that they'd need money for food and clothes. I read on the Lexicon that conjured items don't stay around for longer than they're needed,but if you really need a new robe, like Remus on the train in PoA ( in a robe that was shabby and had been darned, etc.) couldn't you just conjure one? Ffred again: > Also, the inhabitants of the WW do seem to be in occupations that aren't > exploitative or useless. There doesn't seem to be any WW equivalent of > MacDonalds, call centres, nuclear power stations, or any of the other > atrocities of our own world. On the whole, I think I'd rather be a worker > there than here! > > Cheers > Susan (who's really curious... What's a call centre?) > O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon > Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion > Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 11 16:15:16 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:15:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius, Severus and the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100844 I am also curious, as I think many are, about the Potters. OoP gives us a nice background of how small the wizard community is, and how so many wizards are related to one another. The Potters, however, are never mentioned. I know they're all gone, or Harry would never have had to go to the Dursleys, but who are they? Are they an old wizarding family? Were they all mixed with Muggles? Pure bloods? What do you think? --jenny from ravenclaw, who just might post some more ************************ Gina: I have wondered if Snape is related to Sirius. Sirius also says something about ALL purebloods being related someone. Well Lily's parents were muggles probably, but James was a pureblood! Who are they related to? Also Petunia is older than Lily and in the books Dudley is said to have blonde hair....could that have something to do with Lucius Malfoy? -------Gina who would like Hermione hope to be in Gryffindor, but be happy with Ravenclaw too! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 16:19:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:19:06 -0000 Subject: WW Technology V Muggle Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100845 > Susan (teilani) now: > In trying my hand at fanfic, I've been wondering exactly what people > like Molly Weasley do all day. She doesn't have a job. Granted, she > has kids, but even the youngest of them is at Hogwarts for months at > a time. Potioncat: She sits at the fireplace and chats with other wizards and witches about that series of books about the Muggle boy (I should know!) She doesn't appear to have a job, but do we really know that? With all of her kids away at school, wouldn't you think she would work to bring in money? Or do you suppose she's constantly updating spells to keep the magic of the house going? Potioncat From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 11 16:38:02 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:38:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100846 Darrin: > BUT WHAT IF... there WERE five? > > And one was Severus Snape, sorted proudly into Gryffindor. > > Until something, maybe a love of Dark Arts, maybe jealousy over Lily, > maybe a major falling out with Sirius, made life so intolerable in > that room that D-Dore had to step in and separate Snape from the > Marauders. > > Snape was allowed to be re-sorted. > > If the hat bases the house selection on choice as much as ability -- > as seen not only with Harry, but Draco, who was under the hat > for .349 seconds before it said Slytherin -- then how do we allow for > changing of minds? > > Poke holes as you will. I'm not sure I believe it myself. :) > > Darrin Ally: I would not be surprised one bit if Snape turns out to have been sorted into Gryffindor. First, JKR likes to write things in a tricky way so that the reader makes false assumptions - about Snape in SS, about Sirius in POA. She never clearly states that Snape was in Slytherin house, so wouldn't it be right up her alley to blow apart our assumption that he was? Two other things that stuck out - the way Snape always "followed" the Marauders around brings to my mind the kind of kid that tagged along after a big brother and then tattles when he isn't allowed to join the fun. Something that could have occurred if Snape was part of Gryff but not really accepted. Also, the fact that no Slytherins come to his aid in the pensieve scene. You would think at least one of them would have intervened out of house pride alone if one of their ranks was being tormented by a bunch of no-good Gryffindors. BUT - I also get the sense that Snape was raised in a Dark Arts- loving/Voldie-supporting household like the Blacks, so I could also see him pulling a reverse Harry - getting told he was a Gryffindor and insisting he wanted to be in Slytherin b/c he thought it was where he was supposed to be. And its not clear that there are always 5 Gryff boys in every class. The other issue is this - thematically, if Snape was a Gryff or was supposed to be and turns out to have been working for the Order as he supposedly is, then once again, we have someone who isn't a Slytherin doing something brave and noble. I dislike intensely this idea that all Slytherins must be bad and we can tell that they are when they're kids - if that's the way things turn out, I think its a real failing on JKR's part, and I really don't think she'll do it, either. At this point, Snape is the closest thing we have to a Slytherin who might buck the expectations. If he turns out to have Gryff connections, that sort of takes the complexity out of him to a certain extent and just plays him more into the black/white distinction of Gryff = good; Slyth = bad (and I know that Pettigrew debunks this theory somewhat, but I still think a Slyth who is fairly visible in the books needs to be shown in a good light for the black/white dichotomy to be really thrown out). From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jun 11 16:47:28 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:47:28 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: <20040611151437.33933.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans wrote: "Just one last point: Kneasy recently said something about me seeing everything Harry did out of love, or something like that. (Kneasy, correct me). Once again, differently coloured glasses. If we see Harry as a teenage boy and interpret his actions literally, OK I agree, some of the things he does are completely wrong; for example reading Filch's letter (part 2?). But if we see Harry as an aspect of OURSELVES in the quest for the transformation, we can see that he indeed is a child of love in our own heart. Obviously to make the story the success it is, Jo has had to make Harry very human, complete with faults and teenage hormones and even hatred. That's the literal version. But when we see Harry as the Golden Griffin (Gryffin d'or) struggling within us to fly away into the celestial regions, we love Harry with our whole heart and mind. Then we can excuse his faults as just literary devices to make him so identifiable with "everyman" as a flawed human being. Just a thought (with acknowledgements to Steve)" Iris, trying not to add fuel to the flames: It's good to read that post, especially because it is how will I say? `Serene' seems to be a good word. I just would like to add that a literal interpretation and a symbolic interpretation are not necessarily two opposite things, especially in the Harry Potter series' case (and that's IMO where the power of the series roots). I agree that a symbolic reading level finally `simplifies' (mais oui!) many things (for instance it's a good way to understand what at first glance sounds like an inconsistency)). However even if we don't read the series from a symbolical point of view, even if we take it literally, we also can understand Harry and forgive his faults. Simply because he's a kid, a `human work in progress'. We forgive in real life, or at least we try to do it. It doesn't mean we are blind, or weak, and don't recognize the faults the others make. But we forgive, because we are not exempt from faults ourselves (even saints are not exempt from faults), and because we need to be forgiven too. It's not an esoteric processes, it's only a vital necessity. And it's finally more comfortable than grudge and hatred, even if it's not easy to do (I know what I'm talking about, but it will remain private). It also helps move forward. I hope Harry will learn how to forgive, on the contrary he would be like Voldemort. Look what happened to Tom Marvolo Riddle, who didn't know how to forget, even to himself (for being half-blood, for being responsible for his mother's death): he didn't evolve, though he tried to gain power, though he changed his name and appearance. As I wrote on another group, if he were a painting, he would be a still life, a kind of vanity. He doesn't know how to forgive (because he's trying to escape from his own consciousness), or doesn't want to do it (because it makes him feel angry, and he probably imagines it is the condition sine qua non to remain strong and powerful). He's completely wrong, and as he is an adult and a maniac, he probably won't evolve any more. But Harry is only 15, so we can hope he will do better. Let's trust him, as we trust our kids. Amicalement, Iris From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 17:19:07 2004 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:19:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040611084514.03aa3930@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Now Phil chimes in: > I love your theory, bowlwoman, > but two things came to me when reading it. > 1. There is a house available, number twelve, Grimmauld Place, which > Petunia could possibly inherrit, that is until Harry comes of age. > > 2. And if DD makes it known that Duddy is a wizard, shouldn't he start > attending Hogwarts as a first year student? > Yes, 12 Grimmauld Place is available, but we don't know what's going to happen to it. It's very possible that Harry will inherit, but we don't know if Sirius left a will and I know nothing about inheritence laws in the UK. Narcissa or Tonks' family could inherit it, since they are cousins. It's also being used as the headquarters of the Order, which has DD as a secret keeper. It's very likely that Harry CAN'T tell Petunia about the house, because of the Fidelius Charm. Even if he could, I think he would elect to keep the house as the HQ of the Order. Now, maybe Petunia/Dudders could live there instead. I don't know if Dudley would attend Hogwarts or not. It's a tricky business, given the time parameters involved. We know Hagrid was expelled during his 3rd year and was told not to do magic w/o permission. That doesn't mean he CAN'T do it or doesn't know the correct incantations, only that he's legally prohibited. Since it is possible for students to leave Hogwarts after their 5th year, I don't know that the MoM could force Dudley to attend. It would be in his best interest, no doubt, but he could always be tutored by someone to get the basics. Can you see Harry trying to teach Dudley to levitate something? :) bowlwoman From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 11 17:26:18 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:26:18 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100849 > Del replies : > I see we have a different take on trust. I first believe in people, > and then stop when they prove untrustworthy. You first want the > Slytherins to prove trustworthy before you trust them. Why not, it's > your right, but it makes cooperation between the Houses harder. > Oh, and maybe they don't *care*, all those silent Slytherins ? They > already know that they have a bad reputation no matter what, so maybe they don't care anymore. People that stand by and allow racist filth and genocidal rantings to be spoken by someone wearing their colors and representing their house, country, flag, whatever, need a better reason than "They hate me anyway, so why should I care?" > Darrin wrote : > > The very fact that there IS still a House Slytherin speaks volumes. > > Unless there is some magical binding contract that prevents old > > Sal's line from being kicked out on their butts, one would think > > that there would be massive temptation to just dissolve the house > > and put the kids somewhere else. > > Del replies : > I agree. I've been wondering about that. And the most logical > conclusion is that Slytherin House is NOT a bad House. Something went wrong somewhere. I think Slytherin went off the rails with V-Mort. Phineas Nigellus is a tool at times, but he really comes off as more of a "loyal opposition" figure than an out-and-out enemy. And I felt more sypmathy for a damn Slytherin painting when he found out Sirius was dead than I have for any other Slytherin. The problem is, V-Mort's sins will be remembered for generations. Say that the Nott kid is introduced. On JKR's website, she said the younger Nott was to be an independent figure, not siding with Draco right away. Maybe that kid has the stuff, but he has to overcome the hatred and fear of people like Neville, who essentially lost his parents to a Death Eater like Nott's dad. Whinging and moaning about how no one likes them anyway, so it doesn't matter whether they disagree with the pureblood creed or V- Mort doesn't seem like the answer. Is it fair to pay for the sins of the fathers? Not at all. (Wish someone would tell Snape that) But expecting to be welcomed with open arms is another matter. > Darrin wrote : > > And these are not refugees who haven't been accepted by anyone else. > > Remember, these are the children of priviledge. Most of them, if not > > all of them (besides V-Mort) are pureblood, which means they are > > upper-crust in many eyes. > > > > The Slyths are the jocks, prom queens, rich kids, trend-setters, > > arbiters of status and harpies. They are NOT the Square Pegs, nerds, > > geeks, goths, skateboarders, punks, rebels, or any other picked on > > group in school. > > Del replies : > That's a bit of speculation. Being pureblood doesn't guarantee status > : just look at the Weasleys. Yes, the Weasleys are considered blood traitors. > And nowhere do we see the Slytherins being popular and upper-crust. > Just because Draco is rich and famous doesn't mean his whole House is. You're extrapolating with very little basis. They are rich. They are old. In Fudge's world, being pureblood counts for more. The very fact that an anti-Muggle persecution law is needed indicates that the Slytherin way has dominated for some time. > Darrin wrote : > > Let's go to real life for a minute. Picture a kid who is poor, or > > maybe struggling with his or her sexuality, or not as smart, or > > smart but not athletic, or with a single parent, or with a stutter. > > > > Do you REALLY believe that child is welcome among people like the > > Slytherins you've seen? > > Del replies : > For that matter, that kid wouldn't be nicely treated by the > Gryffindors either. Look at Neville. Another Pureblood by the way. Yes, let's look at Neville: Encouraged to fight back by his friends. Supported when he does. Helped through lessons by Hermione. Encouraged in his Herbology. Has lots of friends willing to help him when they find out about his folks. One of my favorite lines of OoP was Neville being introduced to Luna. "I'm nobody." Ginny: "No, you're not." Next. > > I, Del, said : > > > Yep, Harry met people, lucky for him. Once again, it all comes > > > down to luck. Harry was lucky to meet the right people at the > > > right time in order to get a vague idea that he didn't want to be > > > in Slytherin. > > > Del replies : > As a matter of fact, it could be argued that the single person who > most influenced Harry as to his choice of House was... Draco Malfoy. > Harry wished to be with Ron, he wished to avoid Hermione if possible, but he sure didn't want to be with Draco. And when his turn came to be> sorted, he already knew that Hermione was in Gryffindor and Draco in > Slytherin, but not that Ron would end up in Gryffindor. Hence his > *only* desire : not to be in Slytherin. Thanks to Draco. Finally! The little punk does something useful. Let's give him 99 years in Azkaban instead of 100. > Darrin wrote : > > If you want to keep arguing that facing V-Mort four times in five > > years, alone in three of the cases (books one, two and four and > > outnumbered in four) is something that someone else besides Harry > > might find a breeze (what will break you can be a breeze for me) > > then maybe we should just end it. Because I'm not going to pretend to respect that just for the sake of civility. > > Del replies : > You're not trying to understand what I'm telling you. I NEVER said > that it isn't hard what Harry went through. In other words : HARRY > WENT THROUGH HELL BECAUSE OF LV. All right ? Whew, that took a lot longer than it should have. Glad to see you're coming around. > BUT !!!! Oy vey. >We just don't know that other people didn't go through their own hell for other reasons. *That* was the original discussion : that Harry isn't necessarily the only one who's suffered badly. > Yeah, that Eloise chick had to suffer from acne. Seriously, who else? Who else has grown up with the childhood Harry has, faced the same troubles at school, been hated by as many teachers (Snape, Quirrell, Moody/Crouch, and Umbridge), and been the target of public ridicule, both in and out of Hogwarts. > Darrin wrote : > > What? You admitted you hated Harry just because others liked him. I figured that if I piled on the like, you'd pile on the hate, since > > it was an equal and opposite reaction. :) > > Del replies : > I'm not a robot, Darrin. > And I do NOT hate Harry. What I DO hate is the way some people present him as a saint. Big difference. > Who said he was a saint? He's a good kid, overall, but he's not a saint. But you said yourself that you "hated" Harry as a reaction to the "love" for Harry out here. Darrin From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 17:29:41 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:29:41 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > We're done. I left this list once before because I found a disgusting > and disturbing hatred for Harry Potter amongst many of the posters. > I'm sorry to see nothing much has changed. I'm puzzled; how does taking strong exception to Harry peeking into other people's private memories translate into 'hating' Harry? > > The fact is Snape could have gone on teaching Harry occlumency > til the cows came home and it would have done not a lick of good. > Harry didn't want to close his mind to Voldy - he wanted to know what > was behind the door. No number of classes would have changed that. > > > > It all comes back to Harry I'm afraid. > > > Keep saying that. Maybe it'll come true, even. Well, you see it's not just me saying it. *Harry* says it himself: "The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 17:35:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:35:04 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > > Well, you see it's not just me saying it. *Harry* says it himself: > > "The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was > hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for the > dreams to continue" Well, but could you supply a quote, where Harry wanted Voldie to continue put FALSE visions in his mind? Yes, he wanted for dreams to continue, because he thought that those dreams were REAL. After all, he did save Arthur after one of them. Harry was wrong, but it was understandable. Alla From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 17:49:42 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:49:42 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Snape rushed out to rescue a student, and Harry stayed and went > into the pensieve. Snape can't be blamed for not stopping to > either return the thoughts or to lock them up. And it could be > understood how a 15 year old would have a hard time resisting, but > he should have. Let's put this in Muggle terms; what would you think of a student who went through a teacher's private letters? And this is a hundred times worse. In justice to Harry I suspect Dumbledore's calm reaction to his accidental intrusion in GoF kept him from realizing just how bad prying into people's private thoughts is. Still, considering his own reluctance to let Snape see some of his memories.... > It may say something that Snape didn't lock them up on a regular > basis. Perhaps he actually trusted Harry. I suspect that prying into a pensieve is such an appalling violation of wizardly mores that not even Snape believes his least favorite student capable of such a thing. > Potioncat (who agrees with whoever said, that Occlumency failure > does not tie into blame for Sirius' death.) A good point. Looking back we can see the mistakes that led to this disaster but nobody could have been expected to see them at the time. Harry has no reason to believe his connection to Voldy endangers anybody but himself. He might therefore logically reason that he has a perfect right to take the chance if he sees fit. I'm sure we can all understand Dumbledore's reluctance to tell the already burdened Harry about the prophecy. Not only is Snape steaming over the flagrant violation of his mental privacy but he knows perfectly well the lessons aren't doing any good. So, he might ask DD, how can stopping them make things any worse? And expecting Sirius to sit tight while Harry's in danger is as unreasonable as expecting Snape to simply overlook his psychic violation. Nobody foresaw any of this to lead to Voldy invading the MoM and Sirius' death nor do I see how they could be expected to. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jun 11 15:27:37 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:27:37 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Hmmm...I can recall a lot of argument on this list over *who* > should be considered capable or guilty of racism and murder, > but I can't recall anyone seriously arguing that racism and > murder are okay. And I think most of us understand the position, > though we might not agree, that racist name-calling is a hate > crime and should be considered worse than bullying in general. [snip] Demetra: Not trying to nitpick here, but I don't necessarily agree that racist name-calling should be considered worse than bullying. I would say it depends on what the bullying consists of. Hanging a teenager upside down in front of classmates is worse than name-calling, IMHO. Hanging someone upside down *because of what race/blood status they are* IS a hate crime that is worse than general bullying. I'm at work, so I dont have my books with me, but if I recall correctly, in the penseive scene James explains that he bullys Snape simply because Snape exists. Because he exists as a Slytherin? Vampire? Wizarding equivalent of a Goth? Whatever the category, that smacks of racist/bigoted thinking to me and I would have to classify their treatment of him as hate crimes. As far as Slytherins all being bad, I just can't buy it. If JKR is, in fact, equating being in Slytherin to being inherently evil then why the focus on choices being important? Why have the sorting hat urging cooperation amongst all houses? Yes, the Slytherins we've met thus far all appear to be Jr. DE's in training. That doesn't mean every Slytherin will end up fighting on the same side. After all, Gryffindor would appear to be the 'good' house, yet the contemptible Pettigrew was a Gryffindor. From lkotur at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 16:09:13 2004 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (Damit Lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:09:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > * 1) Someone will learn magic at a late age > 2) This will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive > 3) We know that some of the professors have spouses > > (snip) sorry > Gina: > If JKR said someone would learn magic at a late age I would say it > would be Hagrid! > > Hagrid already knows magic. He gave Dudley a pigs tail. Oops, is that in the book or the movie or both? Larry From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jun 11 16:12:58 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:12:58 -0400 Subject: Liability for Sirius' death References: <1086886985.20210.85120.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004a01c44fce$f6c9e3e0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 100855 I find myself not wanting to blame Harry but all the arguments blaming him, DD, Snape, and everyone else make a lot of sense to me. Ds10 and I are at the end of the book just after Sirius has died - which shocked ds10 as I hadn't told him about it - and I remember one part where McNair has Harry in a chokehold. Harry is looking around at everyone else fighting and the books says "No one sees he is dying". The books are Harry's POV and even though everyone else there is fighting the DEs for him he's still thinking about himself. Harry is very angry and upset in this book. He's still dealing with Cedric's death and LV coming back. Hardly anyone believes him. DD won't talk to him and no one will tell him anything. Yes, Snape did tell him why he needed the Occulumency, and I don't remember one class period where Snape used the memories of the dog or being pushed into the toilets against him. But Harry didn't listen even to Hermione, why would he listen to Snape when he's been dogging him from the beginning? I also wondered after the mention of Sirius' gift turned up. I had even forgotten about that. Why didn't Sirius mention it to Harry during one of the fire talks? Christina in GA (USA) From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jun 11 16:52:56 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:52:56 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was a success (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100856 I've been thinking a lot about this whole Occlumency thing and what purpose it served. I keep coming back to the feeling that the goal of the lessons was met, but the goal was not what we (or Harry and the others, except Dumbledore and possibly Snape) thought it was. Here's my take on the whole Occlumency thing. Occlumency is a branch of magic that allows one to block access to certain memories/thoughts. A person's memories can be accessed by another witch/wizard who is skilled in Legilimency. We know that Voldemort is skilled in Legilimency. Snape says that eye contact is essential to performing Legilimency. Snape needs to know Occlumency to act as a spy. He needs to be able to keep Voldemort from accessing memories or thoughts related to his work for the Order. He needs to be able to do this when he is in the presence of Voldemort, because that is when Voldemort can perform Legilimency on him. Makes perfect sense that Snape needs to know Occlumency. But, why does Harry need to know Occlumency? How would it help him? Here's what I think we know: 1. We know that Harry's scar provides some sort of connection with Voldemort. 2. We know that the scar has alerted him at times when Voldemort was feeling particularly strong emotions (positive and negative). 3. We also know that Harry has had visions of what Voldemort is doing (in the Riddle house in GoF, snake attacking Mr. Weasley in OotP). These are `real-time' visions, not memories. These visions occur when Harry is sleeping. 4. There is no indication that the scar provides a connection whereby Harry can access Voldemort's memories, or vice-versa. 5. Snape says that eye contact is essential to Legilimency. If Voldemort is close enough to make eye contact with Harry, I would assume he would use the opportunity to kill Harry, not read his mind 6. As far as I can tell, Occlumency is something done actively. At the time someone is performing Legilimency the other person has to be actively practicing Occlumency in order to block them. Therefore, if Harry's visions come when he is in a sleep state, how could Occlumency help? Harry cannot be actively blocking access to his mind when he is sleeping. And the visions are not Legilimency, so again how could Occlumency help? That's why I suspect the goal of the Occlumency lessons was not Harry learning Occlumency (although I doubt anyone would have complained if he actually had learned it). I believe that Dumbledore suspected that Voldemort was learning of the connection with Harry. I don't believe, though, that Dumbledore's greatest fear was Voldemort planting a vision in Harry's mind. No, I believe that Dumbledore's greatest fear was that Voldemort was going to attempt to possess Harry via the connection, just like he did in the Atrium of the MoM. That is why I believe Dumbledore's goal was for Harry to learn how to repel an invasion of his mind. Think about what happens during these Occlumency lessons. Snape gets to play the quintessential bad cop role that he loves so much. Snape gets into Harry's mind and goes for the intensely personal memories, most of which involve some humiliating incident in Harry's life. Harry has a huge emotional response because it is Snape (whom he hates) in his mind, seeing things Harry doesn't want him to see and essentially forcing Harry to re-live them. The end result though, is that eventually, on more than one occasion, Harry is able to repel the invasion of his mind. This is what I meant when I said in a previous post that perhaps the mission was accomplished. Harry has experienced having someone in his mind. Harry has learned how to push the offender out. When Voldemort possessed Harry in the Atrium, Harry's strong emotional response resulted in the repelling of Voldemort out of his mind. Iout. Demetra (who love's Kneasy's theory on Tom R. being possessed and whose wild prediction for the final battle is that through the scar/mind connection Harry will join forces with Tom R. and help Tom repel Voldemort out) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:05:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:05:14 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > > I'm at work, so I dont have my books with me, but if I recall > correctly, in the penseive scene James explains that he bullys Snape > simply because Snape exists. Because he exists as a Slytherin? > Vampire? Wizarding equivalent of a Goth? Whatever the category, that > smacks of racist/bigoted thinking to me and I would have to classify > their treatment of him as hate crimes. Yes, James says that. It could be a hate crime or it could be one of those mysteries, which will tell us that Snape was not a poor little sweetie while at school either. (NO, I am not justifying James at all) "Because he exists" could be even that Snape had feelings for Lily and James knew about it. Alla From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 16:55:46 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:55:46 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Sign of Cain (C. Rosycross in jeans) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" wrote: > > > Except that setting the serpent at the zoo free isn't Harry's > first act of wizadry, nor is it his first conscious act of Wizardry. But then "Harry had his name down ever seen he was born" (to attend Hogwarts). Does it really matter if it was a conscious act or not? I look at it more symbolically in Harry's "releasing of the serpent" is a reflection to approaching the steps of "releasing the serpent" within himself (from the moment Voldemort "marked" him and this experience begins unravelling when he comes to Hogwarts). To fully understand his duality he needs to experience the serpent as well as "God"(ric) within him. As iris_ft so eloquently put it, Harry is both Cain and Abel, but also neither one of them. He bears the mark of Cain, but has the capacity to forgive his brother. As not to be redundant, but you could see this in the text. "...Power the Dark Lord knows not" (OotP SCH, ch. 37, p.841). Harry can love and through this love he can forgive. I've perceived Harry as a sort of binity... two (opposing) sides in one being. This idea is drummed in further with the prophecy "Either must die at the hand of the other, For neither can live while the other survives". (p.841) The prophecy is likely talking about a physical battle of Harry vs. Voldemort, but I've also wondered if it may be referring to just Harry himself. Harry can't defeat the Dark Lord until he can learn to forgive himself? He can't go on until he learns to accept and understand what he is. From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jun 11 16:53:09 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:53:09 -0400 Subject: A question about name-calling References: <1086899971.14306.11844.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006e01c44fd4$9334f940$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 100859 bamf: What exactly is a half-blood? We have Seamus in >thefirst book say that he is 'half and half' - that his >Mum was a witch and didn't tell her husband (Pure >Muggle) until after they were married. We know Tom >Riddle had a similiar situation where one parent was >Pure Muggle.What exactly is Harry then? Yes, his Mum >was Muggle born, but she was a witch. Does that still >make him a Half-blood, as Bellatrix calls him in OOtP: >"Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked. "You dare speak >his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it >with your half-blood's tongue, you dare-" (quoted from US Version - OOtP, pg 784) >Comments and thoughts? Christina : I have wondered this myself. Lily was muggle born - 2 muggle parents - but they must have known *something* - (SS, US version p 53) "....But for my mother and father, oh, no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" (Petunia speaking) So did her muggle family know something of the wizard world since they were so happy to have a witch in the family? And what were James' parents? I don't remember the books saying. But Harry's parents were both wizards so does it matter? We know that Draco wanted him in Slytherin. The Sorting Hat told him he would have been a good candidate for Slytherin but Harry said *Not Slytherin*. The hat saw his courage - (SS, p 121, USversion) "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting... So where shall I put you?" Harry gripped the edges of the stool and thought, Not Slytherin, not Slytherin. "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that..." So does Slytherin judge a pureblood wizard by his parents or his entire family like Mrs. Black did by having the family tree tapestry? And about Harry's thirst to prove himself .... to whom? To the Dursley's? To himself? When will he feel he's accomplished that goal? Christina in GA (USA) From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:05:14 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:05:14 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" > wrote: > > > > Well, you see it's not just me saying it. *Harry* says it > himself: > > > > "The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was > > hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for > the > > dreams to continue" > > > Well, but could you supply a quote, where Harry wanted Voldie to > continue put FALSE visions in his mind? Yes, he wanted for dreams to > continue, because he thought that those dreams were REAL. > > After all, he did save Arthur after one of them. Harry was wrong, but > it was understandable. Of course it was. Harry himself argues that seeing into Voldy's mind could be useful. I'm not sure the possibilty of him being manipulated by false visions occurs to the more experienced wizards, certainly never occurs to Harry. I also think that Snape's being unable to face Harry after the pensieve incident or continue the lessons is understandable. Apparently so did Dumbledore. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 17:02:38 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:02:38 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <159.375857ff.2dfb2e11@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100861 Cheryl: > For all the blame and self-blame that's been cast for the 'vision' > incident and its ramifications, we haven't seen Snape's reactions. He hated > Sirius, a given. he'd have gleefully turned Sirius over to the Dementors. He > loved tormenting Sirius. He KNEW how important Sirius was to Harry, to the Order. > There's been a lot of talk about Snape's emotional immaturity. I think he's > had a shock that may help him grow. I wish he'd drop dead is a common kids > wish. Should it actually happen, though, they often will never forgive themselves. > I think Snape was trying to repair the damage to Harry, in his own, > inimitable, Snapeish way. Stefanie: For the reasons you listed (Snape's KNOWING how important Sirius was to the Harry and the Order), I can't help but think that a shock like this isn't going to wake up Snape -- that is, if we even really know who's side he's on. As I read through this thread, it's striking just *how much* is riding on these lessons and how *everyone* (DD, Sirius, Lupin) knows it. Snape knows the gravity of things...Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of OotP exactly why he didn't personally give Occlumency lessons, and judging from Snape's hatred of Harry, DD would've believed he had to explain this to him to persuade him. Snape knew the ramifications of Voldemort prying into Harry's head. As DD states: "'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside you the very night that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's attack. I knew at once that my worst fears were correct: Voldemort had realised he could use you. In an attempt to arm you against Voldemort's assaults on your mind, I arranged Occlumency lessons with Professor Snape.'" (OotP 37) So DD realizes that Voldemort can use Harry to attack people. Snape knows this and still his pride outweighs the consequences that have already come to fruition in Arthur's attack? And this is excusable as DD's "`But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'" (OotP 37) This is about James and Snape's hatred for him. Dumbledore even goes as far to call his mistake that of an "old man" which to me implies that Snape not overcoming his hatred of James is something "young men" have to deal with ? something he simply didn't consider because his aged wisdom is beyond such (to use *the word*) immaturity. Dumbledore doesn't mention Harry's not practicing (although, I do not justify this in the least ? Harry heard plenty of warnings, as vague as they were [which, yes, if clarified may have made a difference]) Snape has proven himself to be vindictive beyond reason: In the Shrieking Shack with his "maniacal" drive to toss Remus and Sirius to the Dementors, with his entire attitude towards Harry beginning before they even exchanged words...why is it so easy to trust Snape? I'm finding it hard to see a line that Snape has solidly shown his vindictiveness will not cross... From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 11 17:07:51 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:07:51 -0400 Subject: How do owls get their names? Message-ID: <000901c44fd6$a16d7f80$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100862 I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when he purchased her for Harry? And how did Pigwidgeon get his name/ Curious minds want to know. Littlekat From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 17:34:56 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:34:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Severus and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100863 jenny from ravenclaw: > I am also curious, as I think many are, about the Potters. OoP gives us a > nice background of how small the wizard community is, and how so many > wizards are related to one another. The Potters, however, are never > mentioned. I know they're all gone, or Harry would never have had to go to > the Dursleys, but who are they? Are they an old wizarding family? Were they > all mixed with Muggles? Pure bloods? > > What do you think? > jenny from ravenclaw: > I am also curious, as I think many are, about the Potters. OoP gives us a > nice background of how small the wizard community is, and how so many > wizards are related to one another. The Potters, however, are never > mentioned. I know they're all gone, or Harry would never have had to go to > the Dursleys, but who are they? Are they an old wizarding family? Were they > all mixed with Muggles? Pure bloods? > > What do you think? Stefanie: I'm stumped on this matter, also...here's my speculations: If James' purebloodedness and Lily's pure Muggle blood add up to make Harry a half-blood...It definitely seems that at least part of James' family has had at least a couple generations of wizards from the presence of the Invisibility Cloak. JKR stated in the 10/19/00 AOL chat that "[it] was inherited from his own father ? a family heirloom!" If this is the case, we can assume that at least James' father's side would have been wizarding families. (unless you want to believe that they were Muggles who felt the compulsive need to pass down a pretty, yet somewhat useless cloak down through the ages and never had the urge to try it on.) Going with this, the surname "Potter" would've been floating around the wizard world. Now, there's always the chance that all the Potter men didn't marry purebloods and although the Potter name (and subsequent family heirlooms) was carried down, the line wasn't a strictly pureblooded one ? however, this would render James not of pure blood and would bring the question of Harry's "half-bloodedness" into a bit of complication. In OotP, while looking at the Black tapestry, Sirius states that "the pure-blood families are all interrelated" (OotP 6), due to the practice of marrying into the few families left to keep pureblood exclusive. Going along this vein, if the Potters are pureblood, it would be logical for at least one of them to appear on the Black family tree as a marriage link. Of course, the Potters and the Blacks could've been mortal enemies (i.e. Capulet and Montague- esque) and may not have intermarried at all in which case, if intermarriage did take place, it would seem logical that the parties involved would've been blasted off the tapestry anyway. However, while Sirius notes the Malfoys, the Weasleys, and the Lestranges as pureblooded families who married Blacks, he makes no mention of the Potters. Now we see that Sirius has been effectively blasted off of the tapestry along with other "blood traitors," Andromeda Tonks, Uncle Alphard ? this could have been the case with any Potters that were on. We know that Sirius ran away to James' where James' parents took him in for up to a year. If Alphard was blasted off the tapestry for leaving Sirius money, then it can be assumed that James' father (the one of presumed heritage) would've been removed (and mother, as well as James himself, if they were on in the first place) for taking Sirius in. Note that Alphard's ancestral line is intact as is Andromeda's ? if Mr. Potter's ancestors were on the tapestry, they presumably would've been left intact. However Sirius tells Harry not to even look for the pureblooded Weasleys on the Black tapestry even though he acknowledges that he is related to them by both blood and marriage. One can assume from this that before the tapestry was started (ca. Middle Ages) the Weasleys had made a name for themselves as Muggle tolerant, hence blood traitors and were seen as not worthy to even be mentioned on the tree as it was being created. This may be the case with the Potters if they were a pureblooded family to begin with. (Which then makes it odd for the Weasleys never to mention the Potters seeing as how they've remained pureblooded, yet have had a smaller pool to pick from as they haven't married Blacks) Strangely, although Sirius mentions the unacknowledged Weasley family as a one of pureblood ancestry, he doesn't mention the Potter family, which seems odd considering that he is talking to Harry, and he did mention Harry's grandparents. He may have been doing this to spare Harry the realization that he is related to many wizards who served the force responsible for him never meeting his family. Not to mention, telling him this would reveal a familial link to Draco and Lucius Malfoy, which I'm sure Harry wouldn't have appreciated. However, there is the possibility that he may simply not be stating that which is not... Stefanie Who is dying for a peek at the Hogwarts magical birth registry! From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jun 11 17:59:20 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:59:20 -0400 Subject: Owls and year 6/Wizard Technology/First Triwizard Task References: <1086918544.12382.90088.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008e01c44fdd$d2aaeb80$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 100864 >"troublenbass" >I have a random and simple question. How do you think >everyone did on their OWLS? Harry had much to worry >about - do you think he failed anything? What do you >think his classes will be in year 6? >I apologize if we have talked about this already. Christina: I think they did well in all the OWLS, except Harry in History of Magic since he fell asleep and only answered a few questions. We know McGonagall told him some classes he needed to continue in order to be an auror - potions being one of them, if Snape will have him there. Snape said he only takes students with the proper aptititude, I think he said. Someone asked once if there were Wizard colleges to attend after Hogwarts and JKR said no, but McGonagall said that to be in Auror it would require more training after Hogwarts. That could be some type of college or training program or on the job training at the MOM, but I doubt JKR will write about that if that's what Harry decides to do. Personally I believe Harry will be the new DADA teacher within about 2 years of leaving Hogwarts. For year 6 I think Harry will still be taking most of the usual classes - Transfiguration, Potions, DADA, Care of Magical Creatures. He will probably drop divination and maybe astronomy. I wonder if he and Ron will take up Arithmancy or Ancient Runes during these final years? And I wonder if Arithmancy is like Algebra or Trigonometry in the WW? Re: Wizard Technology. I find it interesting that they don't have television or radio like we know it, but they do have some type of radio because the kids knew the group singing at the Yule Ball. Lockhart was also another celebrity so the WW must have some form of entertainment the way the muggle world does in order for groups and people to become famous. Without television in the common room I guess that makes it easier to get all the homework done as well. I would love to have a house like the Weasley's that cleaned itself. >From: "fandulin" Subject: First Triwizard task....cruel? >I was re-reading portions of GoF the other day, my >favorite volume, and it occurred to me that the first >Triwizard task is a little cruel. Has anyone else thought >this? Christina: I never thought of it that way before but you are right. I never really felt sorry for the dragons but now I do. Basically I didn't like the tournament to begin with. The wizards knew it was dangerous - they stopped it because the contestants died - but the one that really bothered me was Harry swimming in the lake. He did right by helping Fleur's sister even though everyone else thought he was stupid for believing the clue and thinking they would die. Christina in GA From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:11:05 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:11:05 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Wrong. Sirius Black was never the bad guy. He just was waiting for > proof that he wasn't. False comparison. > > Sirius never changed sides. He didn't undergo a character change. > More facts came in and we learned more about him. Pettigrew never > changed. Neither did Crouch Jr. We just learned more about him. Oh so we ARE sticking around to Learn More about our characters. We just get to decide which "more" we're going to pay attention to. Gotcha. What I don't get is this going-on about character changes. Who's said the characters changed? Our view of them while reading about them has, certainly, but they haven't. >Draco's rule-breaking (done almost always to torture, > bully, or even attempt to maim and murder.) Rather like...oh, say Sirius and James at that age? Oh, but THEY ****changed****. Right. Because they were Gryffindors. Gotcha. Mel, duly chastised. From squeakinby at tds.net Fri Jun 11 18:13:15 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:13:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: <000901c44fd6$a16d7f80$e60b8f45@Voov> References: <000901c44fd6$a16d7f80$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <40C9F63B.8010603@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 100866 Littlekat10 wrote: > I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I > know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in > the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when he purchased her for > Harry? I don't know the answer to this. > And how did Pigwidgeon get his name/ Curious minds want to know. Ron says Ginny named him. (GOF page 54 1st UK edition) Jem From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:14:32 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:14:32 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > > Of course it was. Harry himself argues that seeing into Voldy's > mind could be useful. I'm not sure the possibilty of him being > manipulated by false visions occurs to the more experienced wizards, > certainly never occurs to Harry. > Alla: I don't have a book with me right now, but I think that Dumbledore confesses at the end that he considered such possibility and did not tell Harry. I could be wrong though. > I also think that Snape's being unable to face Harry after the > pensieve incident or continue the lessons is understandable. > Apparently so did Dumbledore. Alla: Well,here we of course differ. To me - there is no comparison to what Harry did and what Snape did. And I think that if Dumbledore knew right away,which I am not quite sure about, he may have thought that it was unfixable catastrophe. Alla From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 11 18:17:21 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:17:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100868 > * 1) Someone will learn magic at a late age > 2) This will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive > 3) We know that some of the professors have spouses > > (snip) sorry > Gina: > If JKR said someone would learn magic at a late age I would say it > would be Hagrid! > > Hagrid already knows magic. He gave Dudley a pigs tail. Oops, is that in the book or the movie or both? Larry Well yeah, but he was expelled so I doubt he knows very much. It isn't really late for Dudley to learn - petunia maybe? Filch? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:22:15 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:22:15 -0000 Subject: the opening of Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100869 I have a silly idea that we're actually going to find out *exactly* what happened at Godric's Hollow on Hallowe'en 1981 in the opening chapter of the sixth book. Why? It just seems to fit. The quote, from her official website, about it: "I have come close to using a chapter very like this in 'Philosopher's Stone' (it was one of the discarded first chapters), 'Prisoner of Azkaban' and 'Order of the Phoenix' but here, finally, it works, so it's staying. And that's all I'm going to say, but when you read it, just know that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing." We know, from a Christmas 2001 BBC special, that she wrote and discarded fifteen chapters of PS that simply gave too much away. On her wesbite, she tells us that: "There were many different versions of the first chapter of 'Philosopher's Stone'[...]The trouble with that chapter was (as so often in a Harry Potter book) I had to give a lot of information yet conceal even more. There were various versions of scenes in which you actually saw Voldemort entering Godric's Hollow and killing the Potters[...]" PoA and OotP were quite obviously the books *most* connected to the MWPP era, and were therefore the most likely candidates for inclusion of a glimpse at the tragedy of Godric's Hollow. However, it was probably still far too early. But now, with only two books left... My heart is in my throat. Justine From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:21:47 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:21:47 -0000 Subject: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: <000901c44fd6$a16d7f80$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Littlekat10" wrote: > I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I > know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in > the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when he purchased her for > Harry? Actually Harry got her name out of one of his Wizarding books. > And how did Pigwidgeon get his name/ Curious minds want to know. > > Littlekat Ginny named him. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 11 18:23:25 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:23:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do owls get their names? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100871 I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when he purchased her for Harry? And how did Pigwidgeon get his name/ Curious minds want to know. Littlekat Good question! I know Pigwidgeon was named by Ginny, but don't know about Hedwig! Gina - who still thinks Hedwig is more than an owl! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fandulin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:26:47 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:26:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's effect on world-wide wizardry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100872 Big picture question. We know that Voldemort is the greatest threat to the wizards and witches of Europe for quite awhile, but what effect does he have on the rest of the magical world? I mean, do the magical communities of South and North America, Asia, Africa, etc....fear or even know about him? Is he a global threat, or is he more localized (with long-range designs on ruling the world perhaps). Does he have cults of Death Eaters all over the world, who follow him from afar? Or are there similar, but unconnected dramas taking place in other places. A Chinese Dumbledore, fighting against the evil wizard Cao Cao, with the only safe haven being the Fujian Honorable Academy of Wizards! Ok, letting it get away from me....cool to think about though. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:27:31 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:27:31 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > Rather like...oh, say Sirius and James at that age? Oh, but THEY > ****changed****. Right. Because they were Gryffindors. Gotcha. > > Mel, duly chastised. However speaking on the behalf of the dead, both Sirius and James started off as against the dark arts and probably against the Slytherin's way of racism while later fighting against Voldemort in the OOTP. Draco on the other hand has three strikes against him in that regard: he supports Voldemort, the Dark Arts and the elitist ideas maintained in the House of Slytherin. From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 11 17:55:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:55:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Previous Spoilers for Book 5? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100874 [Brenda writes]: | | So I was wondering, which speculations/theories about Book 5 came | true? You guys had to wait at least 3 years for OoP, I'm sure there | were numerous spoilers, theories and debates. And I don't know how to | even start reading +20,000 of posts inbetween... I was very sure that Figg was more than just the old lady who looked after Harry when the Dursleys would go out. I sorta got that feeling in the beginning of GOF with the tent Mr. Weasley had that reminded Harry of Mrs. Figg's house not only in decor but in smell. Yes, it was loaned to Arthur by Perkins, but where had Perkins gotten it from? Or was there something between Figg and Perkins? (Hmm--somewhat off-track speculation....) Then, at the end of GOF, when Dd mentions her name, I remember grinning, feeling like...well....sure, why not? :-) I was also sure that Harry would see Lupin again and get to meet the real Moody. And yes, I'm glad the twins finally got their joke shop on a roll. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 11 17:02:42 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:02:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: alastor and albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100875 Couldn't the word "Auror" also refer to the Aura energy of a person? Could it not be that an auror can detect through various means the non-positive or dark aura or energy field of a person? Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:34:22 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:34:22 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100876 "jenny_ravenclaw" < wrote: > Hi - > > This is completely unrelated to my previous post but I've been eager to post > this. I hope it hasn't been discussed to death, but I know this list and it > probably has. > > In PoA, when Harry gets on the Knight Bus and Stan Shunpike asks for his > name, the first one that came to mind was Neville Longbottom. I found that > really interesting, after having read OoP, and knowing that there's a real > connection between Harry and Neville. > > Maybe the connection between the two boys is stronger than what we've > seen already, especially since Neville's name, of all the names Harry could > have chosen, jumped into Harry's head at such a random time. I'm hoping > we'll find out more about that prophecy and that it was no coincidence that > Neville was the last one standing (well, trying to stand) with Harry at the MoM > in OoP. > > I know Neville will never be as strong as Harry, but I'd like to see him come > even more into his own. I enjoyed seeing that in OoP, because before that, I > was not a Neville fan. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, defender of Harry 'till the end **************************** I do not believe it was a coincidence that Neville was the last one standing with Harry at the MoM at all. Ever since SS, Harry's had a huge impact on Neville. And before I go any further, Neville, like everyone else in the WW, knows exactly who Harry is, but Harry has no clue who Neville, or his family is, so it's not like Harry's going to have instant respect for Neville based on the sacrifices of his parents and the circumstances surrounding his homelife with Gran, whereas Neville will obviously take everything Harry says to heart, at first merely based on the fact that Harry is _the- Harry Potter. K, Harry's huge impact on Neville. When DM curses Neville with the Locomotor mortis, Harry tells Neville that N's worth 12 Malfoys and that the Sorting Hat put him in Gryff for a reason, which Neville believes instantly. He later says Harry's exact words to DM at the Quiddich match, plus the boy hops on Crabbe and Goyle after Ron atacks Malfoy. And this is only in the first book! Neville continues to get more brave and is extremely loyal to Harry throughout the entire series. The bond between the two continues to grow, then JKR throws us the juicy tidbit about how the prophecy could be about _either_ Harry or Neville, and goes on with all these coincidences surrounding the two boys' births, their families having defied LV 3x, etc. Now at first, when Harry said he was Neville on the knight bus, I thought it was only because Harry thought Neville was ineffectual and his name wouldn't cause the stir that the name Harry Potter would, but after finding out more and more about Neville and about the prophecy, I think it was a clue from JK hinting that Neville's not so ineffectual after all, that his parents were brave and talented, and that despite his setbacks, Neville's going to be just as great a wizard as his parents were and figure heavily into the upcoming battle with LV. The thing that kid's got is heart. He can't even pronounce the incantations at the DoM, but boy is he trying! Maybe HE's the heir of Gryff?! Susan (who's loved Neville from the begining ;-) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 11 18:35:46 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:35:46 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100877 > Snow : > This very thought occurred to me recently but from a different angle. > I wanted to know why in the priori incantatem we did not see or hear > of an echo of what happened to Harry and Voldemort that night at > Godric's Hollow. This echo should have been right before Lily's > appearance. In searching for an answer I found the same question that > you just posed of one green light being mentioned. If Lily were > protecting Harry from Voldemort then he would have been in the room > to see the green light that killed her and a second green light at > the attempt on his own life but there doesn't appear to have been a second green light. Jen: When you look at the people who came out of the wand (and Pettigrew's hand), you see only the effects of completed spells. I've always imagined that when Voldemort's AK hit Harry and backfired, the intended curse wasn't completed and therefore wasn't part of the Priori Incantatem. I guess you could say the spell was completed though, just not in the way LV intended. So then you have to believe there was only one AK that rebounded off Harry and killed Lily before hitting Voldemort. And somewhere in all that mess, powers were transferred to Harry! Snow: > Harry said there was a lot of green light. If, in this theory, you > follow the light from Voldemort's wand towards Harry, it could not > hit Harry because Lily attached herself to Harry. So the green light > had to find the physical body of Harry's protector. Lily may have > been lying some feet from where Harry actually was. The green light > then hit Lily's physical body, which was sacrificed to keep the > shield alive so it rebounded onto Voldemort. The green light hitting > Voldemort destroyed his body and expelled some of his powers onto > Harry in the same manner that Snape's memories backfired to Harry. > The initial connection between Harry and his mother allowed her > abilities to also be instilled in Harry because her physical body was > separated from her actual being which was connected to Harry when her > physical body was destroyed. Jen: I like your idea here, if I'm understanding right, that some of Lily was *also* transferred to Harry that night. Your theory reminds me of lightening, how it has to find a conductor, and in this case Lily would be that conductor of the curse. The only thing is, how did Harry get the scar? If the AK couldn't touch him in any way, it would seem that Voldemort's powers could not be transferred to him either. He would be protected from anything. It's hard to fit in the "step aside, girl" with only one AK; Lily appears to be standing in front of Harry. But perhaps if she didn't step aside, the one AK hit both her and Harry and the force of the rebound off Harry is what made the scar, transferred the powers and reduced Voldemort to vapor. From fandulin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:39:24 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:39:24 -0000 Subject: the opening of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Justine" wrote: > I have a silly idea that we're actually going to find out *exactly* > what happened at Godric's Hollow on Hallowe'en 1981 in the opening > chapter of the sixth book.< Hmmm, I don't think it's silly. I'd never thought about that, but it does seem to fit. I had always figured that it was an introduction to Voldemort, a scene that shows him at the height of his powers, and on the verge of taking over, when he suddenly finds out that Harry is a threat somehow, but in retrospect and in light of OotP that would have ruined a lot of the surprises and tension in the books thus far. I think yours is a pretty good bet. We know that we're going to learn lot's more about the past, particularly about Harry's parents, so that would be a good way to start all that. Fan Dulin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 11 18:38:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:38:30 -0000 Subject: Go to your rooms! Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I've snipped this post because I'm responding to all of them. > > I'm not a List elf. > > But I am a Mom. > > > And I'll bet I'm older than just about everybody on this list. So > I'm stepping in! > > This thread is no longer a friendly thought provoking place. > > So, take a deep breath calm down and play nicely. > > > Or go to your room! > > Potioncat And I bet I'm old enough to be your father. The answer is 'no'. And if you don't behave and show respect for your elders, I'll change my will and leave all my money and wordly goods to the Society for Abandoned Hippogriffs. So there. Kneasy From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:41:05 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:41:05 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's effect on world-wide wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fandulin" wrote: > Big picture question. We know that Voldemort is the greatest threat > to the wizards and witches of Europe for quite awhile, but what > effect does he have on the rest of the magical world? I mean, do > the magical communities of South and North America, Asia, Africa, > etc....fear or even know about him? GEO: This is just my guess, but I'm guessing that the wizarding communities try to stay out of each other's political affairs such as the yearly civil war. > Is he a global threat, or is he > more localized (with long-range designs on ruling the world perhaps). GEO: From what Rowling has said he has plans to go onto expanding his hold on the rest of the continent so I guess he really wants world domination. > Does he have cults of Death Eaters all over the world, who follow > him from afar? GEO: Possible. Afterall Karkaroff is located out of England in Easter Europe and the staff of Durmstrang seem to be big supporters of the Dark Arts though they don't seem to have Voldemort's passion against the mudbloods. > Or are there similar, but unconnected dramas taking > place in other places. GEO: There are probably Voldemort like figures everywhere afterall Voldemort seemed to have followed the footsteps of his predecessor Grindelwald who Dumbledore defeated. > A Chinese Dumbledore, fighting against the > evil wizard Cao Cao, with the only safe haven being the Fujian > Honorable Academy of Wizards! Ok, letting it get away from > me....cool to think about though. GEO: Indeed that would be cool especially if we see more different brands of magic. From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:47:09 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:47:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do owls get their names? References: Message-ID: <001f01c44fe4$80bfd590$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 100881 Littlekat: > I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I > know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in > the first place? Sarah: Harry decided to call her Hedwig. It was a name he'd seen in his new History of Magic book. It didn't expand on the textbook reference to tell us what the historical Hedwig may have done, unfortunately. Sarah From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 18:47:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:47:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100882 Susan wrote: > > Now at first, when Harry said he was Neville on the knight bus, I > thought it was only because Harry thought Neville was ineffectual and > his name wouldn't cause the stir that the name Harry Potter would, > but after finding out more and more about Neville and about the > prophecy, I think it was a clue from JK hinting that Neville's not so > ineffectual after all, that his parents were brave and talented, and > that despite his setbacks, Neville's going to be just as great a > wizard as his parents were and figure heavily into the upcoming > battle with LV. The thing that kid's got is heart. He can't even > pronounce the incantations at the DoM, but boy is he trying! Maybe > HE's the heir of Gryff?! > Potioncat: There has also been at once case where Harry dreamed Neville replaced him at quidditch. This was before any of found out Neville's role in the prophecy. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:47:31 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:47:31 -0000 Subject: alastor and albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Couldn't the word "Auror" also refer to the Aura energy of a person? Could > it not be that an auror can detect through various means the non- positive or > dark aura or energy field of a person? > Thought it was a reference to gold(Au) since the Regular Policeman are called coppers. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 18:53:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:53:02 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100884 > > > Pippin: > > > It's another clue that Lupin is a legilimens, for one thing. But > > it > > > brings up something else I've been wondering about. Voldemort > > > doesn't have a scar. How can he tell whether his attempts to > > > plant information in Harry's head are working--unless of course > > > he can get Snape to look for him and report back? > > > > Potioncat: > > But, you brought up something I hadn't thought of, a way that Snape > > can get away with giving the lessons with less danger. He gives LV > > enough information about it to seem to be working for him. I still > > think it leaves Snape in extra danger, especially if LV gets any > > information from his own walks in Harry's mind. > > Potioncat > > Snow: > Maybe that's why Snape couldn't resume occlumency lessons with Harry > now that the memory of what he saw in the pencieve is now in Harry's > thoughts. The thoughts may have been put into the pencieve for > protection from Voldemort not Harry. Okay, this has been bugging me for a while now. In SS, Snape meets Quirrell in the forbidden forest, he's on to him about letting the Troll into the school as a distraction, and tells him "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decide where your loyalties lie." (SS 13:226) Even though we readers didn't kow that LV was hiding in Q's turban (nor does Snape, we assume) LV *was* there. How can LV not now know where *Snape's* loyalties lie?! This is in the very first book, so I really don't see how Snape can truly be spying for both sides, or how LV, Lucius, or anyone else for that matter, can believe that Snape _isn't_ loyal to DD. Wouldn't LV know from that moment on that Snape is no longer loyal to LV at all? Any thoughts? Susan (teilani) :-) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 11 18:56:11 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:56:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WW Technology V Muggle Technology References: <1086977588.18853.16088.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002c01c44fe5$c3b76e20$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 100885 Susan (teilani) wrote: >In trying my hand at fanfic, I've been wondering exactly what people >like Molly Weasley do all day. She doesn't have a job. Granted, she >has kids, but even the youngest of them is at Hogwarts for months at >a time. Once she's swished and flicked her wand a few times and >gotten the dishes to wash themselves, the beds to make themselves, >the Christmas sweaters knitting themselves, what does she do? Does >she have to supervise as the dishes magically wash themselves? >Probably not. So, all the household shores are probably done before >noon. What now? Probably all the things that we do our best to get through the household chores to be able to do! (Or in Molly's case, she zips over to Grimmauld Place and starts over again on another set of chores...) More seriously, the Weasley household (we don't know whether it's typical of a rural WW household, but it may be) does seem to have more involved in it than a contemporary Muggle household, there's a hint in the books that it has some sort of a smallholding attached. All of which leads me gently towards the conclusion that a WW village household is more like a real world household of some centuries ago, with access to some land and the advantages that that brings, and with a lot of food produced at home. Maybe Molly also has to deal with her own breadmaking, cheesemaking, brewing, and so on. Even so, I'd agree that there seems to be a charm for the purpose which would take most of the drudgery out of it. >Another question I have re: the Weasleys, magic, and money, though >it's not related to this post so much, is how does money affect the >size/condition of their house? If a wizard can just magically add a >new floor or room or bath with a hot tub, what difference does it >make how much money they have? (I got this impression because of the >way the Burrow is described). Who would they pay for these things >anyways? It's not like they'd need to hire a contractor. I get that Likewise from the Burrow description, I would think that a wizard house is put together from raw materials and magic. You can't just conjure up the raw materials, otherwise they'd inconveniently disappear when the charm wore off, but how they are actually assembled needs someone to apply the right construction spells. Given their folkloric abilities in that direction, I wonder if the goblins carry out construction work for the WW? Certainly once the spell is set up, the building seems to be secure for the duration - Hogwarts has been there for centuries and we're not told that there are constant construction gangs working on various parts of the premises (as there are in my local university, which has only been there since 1920!). The only description of anything going wrong is Godric's Hollow: I wonder if one of the effects of the protective spell that saved Harry was to wipe out any magical spells in the vicinity: the house, deprived of its spells, collapses. But another impression from the Burrow description (and indeed from the Grimmauld Place one) is of permanence: it seems as if WW dwellings, once there, are there to stay, rather than somewhere you fling up in an afternoon and move on a year or so later. One little fanficcy idea I had once was to have Arthur and Vernon standing outside their respective abodes (and then each other's) and running over mentally the things that made them home sweet home, and it being totally apparent that there was just nothing in common with the two. "You mean you have to stand on every step to get to the top?" >they'd need money for food and clothes. I read on the Lexicon that >conjured items don't stay around for longer than they're needed,but >if you really need a new robe, like Remus on the train in PoA ( in a >robe that was shabby and had been darned, etc.) couldn't you just >conjure one? Only, I suppose, if you wanted to risk it vanishing at an inconvenient moment! >Susan (who's really curious... What's a call centre?) Cram lots of people together in a large room, each with a telephone headset. Then direct all calls to something like a bank, a telephone company, or so on to the people in the room (alternatively make them phone members of the public and try to sell them things). The function of the people in the room is to be screamed and sworn at all day and night by callers who've waited for hours on the phone in a queue at their own expense with a problem that the person in the call centre can't help them with, or by people that they've interrupted at their business trying to sell them insurance, conservatories, mobile phones, and the like. That sort of thing. They get paid a pittance. And have to smile all the time. Also known as the new sweatshops. Having set them up over here, the companies are now moving the work to India. Where, apparently, the workers have orders to adopt English names and to deny that they are in Delhi, Bangalore, or wherever they are... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 11 18:57:03 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:57:03 -0000 Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100886 > Me (Mandy) wrote: > The Time Turner will be used, not to change time, but to ensure it happens the same way. Harry survived Godrick's Hollow because he was there as Timeturner/Harry and helped to keep himself alive. > Gorda replied: > How would Harry be able to keep himself alive, other than to warn/ask Lily to sacrifice herself for him? Mandy again: Well that's the question. I don't know, except speculate that Timeturner/Harry somehow helped Lily cast her charm of protection that kept Baby/Harry alive. Perhaps Lily sees the grown-up Timeturner/Harry while she is running for their lives and desperate to protect her son. She is about to do anything to keep him alive. If she sees Timeturner/Harry all grown up she my be strengthened by the knowledge that whatever she is going to is going to work. Lily, knows she has to die to place her protection over her child, well what if she was unsure that her spell would work and her dieing would leave Harry alone to face Voldemort? To see a grown up Timeturner/Harry may have given her that extra jab of confidence she needed to successfully perform the spell. All speculation of course, but it is fun. Mandy From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri Jun 11 18:57:35 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:57:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100887 Susan Said: Okay, this has been bugging me for a while now. In SS, Snape meets Quirrell in the forbidden forest, he's on to him about letting the Troll into the school as a distraction, and tells him "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decide where your loyalties lie." (SS 13:226) Even though we readers didn't kow that LV was hiding in Q's turban (nor does Snape, we assume) LV *was* there. How can LV not now know where *Snape's* loyalties lie?! This is in the very first book, so I really don't see how Snape can truly be spying for both sides, or how LV, Lucius, or anyone else for that matter, can believe that Snape _isn't_ loyal to DD. Wouldn't LV know from that moment on that Snape is no longer loyal to LV at all? Any thoughts? Lady Macbeth replied: Ah, but anyone who's good at "fibbing" to get out of trouble (or spy, whichever) should be able to get around that one! Wouldn't it be feasable for Snape, if confronted by Voldemort with that, to simply say that he didn't know that Quirrel was working for Voldemort, and that he thought Quirrel had wanted the Philosopher's Stone for himself? Surely an immortal Defense Against the Dark Arts professor could be a major stumbling block for Voldemort returning! LOL Ok, so I've weasled my way out of too many tight situations and it shows. ~_^ But I think that Snape could cover the Quirrel incident, particularly if his cover story is that he's "playing" loyal to Dumbledore to stay out of Azkaban and subversively help Voldemort in the process. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fandulin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 19:02:36 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:02:36 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Okay, this has been bugging me for a while now. In SS, Snape meets > Quirrell in the forbidden forest, he's on to him about letting the > Troll into the school as a distraction, and tells him "We'll have > another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over > and decide where your loyalties lie." (SS 13:226) Even though we > readers didn't kow that LV was hiding in Q's turban (nor does Snape, > we assume) LV *was* there. How can LV not now know where *Snape's* > loyalties lie?! > > This is in the very first book, so I really don't see how Snape can > truly be spying for both sides, or how LV, Lucius, or anyone else for > that matter, can believe that Snape _isn't_ loyal to DD. Wouldn't LV > know from that moment on that Snape is no longer loyal to LV at all? > Any thoughts?< Oh wow, that's kinda weird! I'd forgotten about that. Well, i've got a rationali... explanation for that. I've thought before that with Snape working at Hogwart's, and his association with Dumbledore, Voldemort might have reservations about him anyway, and that perhaps he's using Snape for his own purposes, with every intention of disposing of him eventually. We don't know much about what information Snape is prying out of Voldemort and his circle right now, and it could be that Snape is in even more danger than anyone realizes. Maybe Voldemort is just feeding Snape useless or false information to keep him at ease, until whatever purpose he has for him is realized, then...(draws finger across windpipe). Fan Dulin From fandulin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 19:18:17 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:18:17 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Okay, this has been bugging me for a while now. In SS, Snape meets > Quirrell in the forbidden forest, he's on to him about letting the > Troll into the school as a distraction, and tells him "We'll have > another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over > and decide where your loyalties lie." (SS 13:226) Even though we > readers didn't kow that LV was hiding in Q's turban (nor does Snape, > we assume) LV *was* there. How can LV not now know where *Snape's* > loyalties lie?! > > This is in the very first book, so I really don't see how Snape can > truly be spying for both sides, or how LV, Lucius, or anyone else for > that matter, can believe that Snape _isn't_ loyal to DD. Wouldn't LV > know from that moment on that Snape is no longer loyal to LV at all? > Any thoughts?> ...or (and I apologize for not organizing all my thoughts in one post) perhaps Snape is more far thinking that we give him credit for. Maybe the conversation wasn't about the troll at all. Perhaps, highly suspicious that Quirrel is no good, he took the oportunity to bolster his standing with Voldemort by voicing "doubts" to him that he's not really loyal to the Dark Lord. Of course then you would have to presume that Snape suspected Quirrel had Voldemort riding shotgun someplace on his body to hear such suspicions, but... Fan Dulin From LadySawall at aol.com Fri Jun 11 19:20:24 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:20:24 EDT Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) Message-ID: <1de.2251cee1.2dfb5ff8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100890 In a message dated 06/11/2004 6:20:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sylvia writes: Sylvia (who wonders if there is anything the poor sod doesn't get blamed for) --- Ummm...Hagrid's abysmal fashion sense? The price of Fizzing Whizbangs? Cedric Diggory's death? Ooooh, I think there's a fanfiction challenge in that--"Blame It On Snape." [Scuttles off to post it] Jo Ann Who should not really be adding fuel to the fire, and sincerely hopes that no one will come up with a serious "Why Cedric was Snape's Fault Too" theory... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 19:21:05 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:21:05 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" <> Sorry, I > Del > is horrified (kidding ;-) : > > A crush ?! No thank you !! As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't > > want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those > > people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into > > consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at > > the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To > me, > > Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that > > doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly > > uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and > > people outside my own private world. > > > > > Alla: Wow, where, where did you get that?:o) > > To me, Harry hates the fact that he is famous and honestly, I would > not want much to do with Collin brothers either, because they > constantly remind him that he is famous. > > I remember that Harry tried to be nice to them, but then he just > tries to escape. I think it is perfectly understandable. > > Alla Meri now (Harry lovers unite!): I agree. Harry has always hated his fame, and has always always always been able to see right through people who are interested in him solely because he is famous (ie: Lockhart, Rita Skeeter). That the Creevey brothers worship him is a fact that I am sure any fifteen year old, or really anyone, would wish to ignore (well, maybe not Malfoy). In fact one of the qualities that always struck me about Harry was his compassion for others. When he first meets Dobby he asks him to sit (like, Dobby says, an equal) and by the end of the book has not only made an effort to know more about Dobby but also to help him, something most wizards wouldn't have done. At the end of the ressurection scene in GoF, Harry grants Ghost!Cedric's wish to return his body to his parents, something which he does at great cost to himself. He never tells Ron or Hermione about Neville's parents after learning about their fate and at the end of OotP, as he is torn assunder with grief over Sirius' death he feels *pity* for Luna because she is made fun of and because people steal her books and things. He even offers to help her look for them. And also to Harry being, to quote Del "one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that doesn't concern them immediately" Harry gets involved plenty with things that don't concern him immideately, like both Pensieves, the Sorcerer's Stone, helping Hagrid with baby Norbert and Grawp, etc. Though I am sure that Dell would just dismiss that as nosiness. Anyway, one of the things that I love about JKR's books is that there is no single saintly perfect character who has no bad qualities. Every character has its good qualities and bad. Just like, last time I checked, real people. That's what makes them so compelling. Meri, who remains a Harry lover till the end, and would so have a massive crush on him as well if she were to meet him (and if she doesn't already). From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 11 19:28:35 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:28:35 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <1de.2251cee1.2dfb5ff8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > Who should not really be adding fuel to the fire, and sincerely hopes that no > one will come up with a serious "Why Cedric was Snape's Fault Too" theory... > Nah, it was obviously Harry's fault, not Snape's. Stands to reason. Harry was the one that insisted that Cedric grab hold of the Cup. Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack at Cho. Terrible things, hormones; absolutely terrible. Kneasy From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 19:55:19 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:55:19 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > > > Who should not really be adding fuel to the fire, and sincerely hopes that no > > one will come up with a serious "Why Cedric was Snape's Fault Too" theory... > > > > Nah, it was obviously Harry's fault, not Snape's. Stands to reason. > Harry was the one that insisted that Cedric grab hold of the Cup. > > Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack > at Cho. > > Terrible things, hormones; absolutely terrible. No no no! It IS Snape's fault. He wasn't hanging around bullying Harry as usual during the last task. That's got to mean it's his fault. Somehow. It's ALL Snape's fault. He should never have attended that DE meeting in the graveyard/attended to important business for the order! How dare he? Harry is perfect. Melpomene From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:00:36 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:00:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's effect on world-wide wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fandulin" wrote: > Big picture question. We know that Voldemort is the greatest threat > to the wizards and witches of Europe for quite awhile, but what > effect does he have on the rest of the magical world? I mean, do > the magical communities of South and North America, Asia, Africa, > etc....fear or even know about him? Is he a global threat, or is he > more localized (with long-range designs on ruling the world perhaps). > Does he have cults of Death Eaters all over the world, who follow > him from afar? Or are there similar, but unconnected dramas taking > place in other places. A Chinese Dumbledore, fighting against the > evil wizard Cao Cao, with the only safe haven being the Fujian > Honorable Academy of Wizards! Ok, letting it get away from > me....cool to think about though. I always imgagined Voldemort as Hitler. Intially a local threat but expanding with his power. First Britain, then the rest of Europe and beyond. I would think apparating makes the world a lot smaller. Distance not being as much of a factor as for muggles. I Imagined at the height of the first Voldy war it was pretty much all of Europe that was threatened by him. I doubt he'd hopped the pond yet though since JKR doesnt really include Americans in the novels except in passing like at the QWC. On that note, a North American Exchange student would have been cool. Even if he was a first year and not part of the plot. Jason From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:18:03 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:18:03 -0000 Subject: Explosion at GH: but still: Snape once again puts 2 & 2 together...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Susan wrote: > If Snape was going to do anything even remotely redemptive in > Harry's_ eyes, Snape's motivation for doing such would have nothing > to do with actual redemption. It would concern his own reasons for > either hating LV or sucking up to DD or getting recognition from the > MoM, etc. The Slytherine Way. > > The only thing that bothers me about this is that it goes back to the > pure speculation that LV did something *personally* to Snape, which > seems to inevitably bring us back to him having a family or love life > and of course, the twins;-), which I just cannot picture. I totally > agree that there obviously has to be some kind of motivation for > Snape to stop being a DE, and I can't wait to find out what that is... > > vmonte responds: > > I keep thinking about how JKR likes to trick us with mistaken > identity. Harry sees himself at the lake in PoA but he misunderstands > what he sees. He thinks he sees his father. We've had fake Moody, > Harry as James, Harry and Ron as Crab and Goyle, etc. She will > probably do this again. James and Lily are both dead--there's no > doubt about this. Their echos both come out of Voldemort's wand. If > Harry goes back in time things are not going to work out the way he > wants them to. Hermione's comments about wizards killing their future > and past selves may come true--and I'm not just talking about Harry. > What if other people follow Harry to GH. Also, we already have a > shape shifter (Tonks) in the series. What if she is evil (or what if > there is another as yet unknown DE metamorph). They could go back in > time and mislead Harry by morphing into someone he loves or by > morphing into 18 year old Harry and really mess things up... > > Also, I've been thinking about Sirius remark to Snape in the > Shreiking Shack. Something about: 'As usual Snape, you've put two > and two together and have come up with the wrong answer.' > What if Snape had to make sure that Harry lived up until the point he > goes back in time to GH. > What if 45 year old Snape followed Harry back. And what if Snape > needs to go back to correct a mistake that happened that night. He > may not have access to time-travel until Harry goes back. > > What if Snape put two and two together that night and accidently > killed his future self (or made some other huge mistake). You know > the explosion at GH really does seem like someone was trying to cover > up something. Did they find body parts there? Could the hand of Glory > be belong to someone that was at GH? Ooh, neat. I admit to being very curious about the fact that there was an explosion and the house was destroyed. Now, even though we don't know anything about what happened at the Longbottoms, I don't recall JKR saying anywhere that AKs (or Imperios)caused explosions, houses to collapse, etc. Just how did the house get destroyed? Also, love the idea about mistaken identity, and really love the idea about another metamorph. Why else tell us about that? I am really curious to know who, exactly, was there at GH. I know this has been brought up before, but I don't recall any satisfying conclusions. I personally don't believe the ESE!Lupin, though it's really interesting, and I don't think it would have been possible for Remus to be there at GH for several reasons, but time-turners and other time related devices do exist. If you're on the side of evil, you probably don't have any reservations about using them for your own evil purposes. Plus, if you can morph, or use the polyjuice, etc., to be someone else... nearly anyone could have been there. (And hmmm... Snape's really good at making potions...) We know Sirius arrived too late. So did Hagrid, and therefore McG and DD didn't know until after the fact. But those of the DE? Another issue of mine, that I've mentioned before, is Crouch!Moody. That was an excellent switch, and I thought he was a cool teacher as well (and found it curious that real!Moody's weird eye worked for fake!Moody), but where the hell was the real!Moody when all this was going on at GH? He's supposed to be a really great Auror, and one who likes to bring in the baddies rather than just killing them. Wouldn't he be in the thick of things? Obviously, looking for all kinds of comments ;-) Susan (who knows this post is all over the place, and who also likes the idea that maybe the real Moody will be a DADA teacher at some point.) From melaniertay at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 13:11:02 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:02 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100896 Alla: > > Why, why, why do you find the hatred of Harry Potter to be > > disturbing? I am genuinely curious. > > > > If poster states that he/she loves/hates the character to me it > > says absolutely nothing about the poster except his/her literary > > preferences. Darrin: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything > about Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. > > The Slytherins ARE the bad guys. I was blown away when I first saw websites where people loved Snape and hated Harry. One of the reason it disturbs me (mildly) is exactly for the reason Darrin stated. These books are called Harry Potter. This group is call "HP". I don't understand why someone would like the books if they hate Harry. They're all about him. Then join a group to discuss it is like going to a Star Trek Convention to announce why Spock should be executed. :) It's just odd. "Mel" From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 13:59:03 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:59:03 -0000 Subject: Late Magic ? Re: "little hint" in Book 2 / Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040611035032.39255.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100897 kljohnson7868 wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in > Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. [huge snippage] >Also, since JKR states that someone will do magic late, Sorry, feeling thick. What's the source for this, please? Phil From littlekat10 at comcast.net Fri Jun 11 17:17:26 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:17:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Molly does was WW Technology V Muggle Technology References: Message-ID: <00b501c44fd7$f7e4dab0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 100898 I bet she stays home all day knitting sweaters and other nifty things. Maybe she also helps Arthur keep out of Muggle trouble. Lol!!! Littlekat From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 18:15:52 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:15:52 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100899 Brenda Previously: >> And I don't think DD was *stupid* in telling HArry about > > the prophecy AT THE END OF OoP (I believe Alla said "Dumbledore's > > stupidity" in earlier post? It made me jump out of my seat). -- Caps added later for emphasis > > Alla: Actually, Alla said that Dumbledore was stupid for NOT telling Harry about the prophecy. :o) Yes, I meant that DD was NOT stupid for telling Harry about the prophecy when he did, at the end of OoP, not anytime sooner. I think it worked out for the best, VM still doesn't know about the prophecy himself, and now Harry is aware of the connection and its danger, his tricks (namely Sirius' death). And if HArry hadn't learned Occlumency to some degree with Snape, he will actually put some effort into it now. Brenda From dscire at nmagazine.com Fri Jun 11 18:28:29 2004 From: dscire at nmagazine.com (Diane Scire) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:28:29 -0400 Subject: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <231EE461-BBD5-11D8-8D5F-00039399B634@nmagazine.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100900 Littlekat: > I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second > book.? I know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she > get that name in the first place?? Could Hagrid have named her when > he purchased her for Harry? Hedwig was named by Harry in the first book. She is named after a witch that was know to be a protector of the oppressed. Diane From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:27:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:27:36 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mel" wrote: > > I was blown away when I first saw websites where people loved Snape > and hated Harry. One of the reason it disturbs me (mildly) is > exactly for the reason Darrin stated. These books are called Harry > Potter. This group is call "HP". I don't understand why someone > would like the books if they hate Harry. They're all about him. > Then join a group to discuss it is like going to a Star Trek > Convention to announce why Spock should be executed. :) It's just > odd. > > "Mel" Well, Harry is by far my favourite character. But there are other characters in the books, you know. There are only few of them, which I immensely dislike. I happen to love Sirius, like Snape, when he is not a jerk, etc, etc. I will never see what in Harry's character is worthy of hate, but other people do, so I gotta respect that. I NEVER understand how what Snape does to children could be justified, but other people do and I have to respect it as well. There are some ideas in RL, which I think have no right to exist (Yes, there are limits to free speech, guys :o)) Hate speech, for example, but love of the character of Severus Snape is surely NOT one of those ideas. :o) Alla From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jun 11 18:45:37 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:45:37 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100902 Alla wrote: Well, but could you supply a quote, where Harry wanted Voldie to continue put FALSE visions in his mind? Yes, he wanted for dreams to continue, because he thought that those dreams were REAL. Demetra: I think the vision of Sirius in the DoM was the first time a false vision was placed in Harry's mind. > Stefanie wrote: [snip] > Snape knew the ramifications of Voldemort prying into Harry's head. > As DD states: "'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside you > the very night that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's attack. I > knew at once that my worst fears were correct: Voldemort had > realised he could use you. In an attempt to arm you against > Voldemort's assaults on your mind, I arranged Occlumency lessons > with Professor Snape.'" (OotP 37) > > So DD realizes that Voldemort can use Harry to attack people. Now Demetra: Nothing in this quote indicates that DD thought Voldemort would put false visions in Harry's mind. I read it as DD thought that Voldemort could possess Harry's mind. I wrote my thoughts on the whole issue of the Occlumency lessons and what I think DD really wanted to accomplish in my post# 100856. In short, I don't see how Occlumency, which is a way to block Legilimency, could have helped Harry. Voldemort was not practicing Legilimency on Harry. There was another purpose to the lessons - IMO, DD wanted Harry to learn how to repel assault/possession of Harry's mind. And while Harry didn't master Occlumency, he most definitely succeeded in repelling Snape during the lessons. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 19:19:22 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:19:22 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100903 Susan: > In SS, Snape meets Quirrell in the forbidden forest, he's on to > him about letting the Troll into the school as a distraction, and > tells him "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had > time to think things over and decide where your loyalties lie." > (SS 13:226) Even though we readers didn't kow that LV was hiding > in Q's turban (nor does Snape, we assume) LV *was* there. How can > LV not now know where *Snape's* loyalties lie?! > > This is in the very first book, so I really don't see how Snape > can truly be spying for both sides, or how LV, Lucius, or anyone > else for that matter, can believe that Snape _isn't_ loyal to DD. > Wouldn't LV know from that moment on that Snape is no longer loyal > to LV at all? Going along with this...How does LV not know where Snape's loyalties lie when DD lets everyone know that Snape was a spy at Karkaroff's trial? If he didn't know in the first 4 books, then after the DE break-out in OotP when those in prison are reunited with those who remained in public life, wouldn't someone have warned that DD vouched for Snape? "Stefanie" From celare_ulace at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 20:10:04 2004 From: celare_ulace at yahoo.co.uk (celare_ulace) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:10:04 -0000 Subject: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: <40C9F63B.8010603@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100904 Littlekat10 wrote: > I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second > book. I know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she > get that name in the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when > he purchased her for Harry? PS/SS, Ch6: 'Harry kept to his room, with his new owl for company. He had decided to call her Hedwig, a name he had found in A History of Magic.' JKR is fond of using historically real names for certain characters. I'm wondering if the person in Harry's textbook after whom Hedwig is named is a real life witch (like Grindelwald...) There is a St Hedwig and a Hedwig village. I couldn't find any occult associations, though... "celare_ulace" From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:14:28 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:14:28 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100905 Mel "melclaros" wrote: > > Rather like...oh, say Sirius and James at that age? Oh, but THEY > > ****changed****. Right. Because they were Gryffindors. Gotcha. "greatelderone" wrote: > However speaking on the behalf of the dead, both Sirius and James > started off as against the dark arts and probably against the > Slytherin's way of racism while later fighting against Voldemort > in the OOTP. Draco on the other hand has three strikes against him > in that regard: he supports Voldemort, the Dark Arts and the elitist > ideas maintained in the House of Slytherin. That goes back to Mel's point. Does being on the 'right' side mean all is forgiven? We are told that Dolores Umbridge is not a supporter of Voldemort. Does that make her horrible pen-thing & other charming behavior forgiveable? Mere peccadilloes in the service of Our Side? But of course not, you protest. Umbridge is yukky. Nobody likes her. Right. She's easy. Now Sirius, lots of people like HIM. He's really not a bad guy, arguably (I leave THAT argument to you, however.) So he's the hard case. As they say, hard cases make bad law. Or in this case, the more inclined you feel to forgive the defendant, the more likely you are to let him get away with attempted murder. Ava From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 20:20:42 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:20:42 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100906 >>> Melpomene wrote: > No no no! It IS Snape's fault. He wasn't hanging around bullying > Harry as usual during the last task. That's got to mean it's his > fault. Somehow. It's ALL Snape's fault. He should never have > attended that DE meeting in the graveyard/attended to important > business for the order! How dare he? Harry is perfect. <<< Bren now: WHAT?!?!?!?!? Ok, now we have gone TOO FAR. Cedric's death was no one's fault, except for Voldy's. No one had imagined that the Triwizard Cup was in fact a portkey. Both Cedric and Harry were very noble and decent in deciding to take the cup together, seeing as how they helped each other throughout the competition. Like Harry said, after all, it was Hogwart's champion who won. And where does it say that Snape attended DE meeting in the graveyard? He is a professor at Hogwarts, and at the last night of Triwizard competition he would have had to remain beside DD, making sure that no other catastrophe happens. Also, as Hermione has repeatedly mentioned in the series, you just can't Apparate and Diapparate from Hogwarts ground! And the only means to have himself transported to the graveyard was through the Portkey, which Harry and Cedric had already taken away. Unless, you were being sarcastic and I just flipped out for no apparent reason. I also disgree with Kneasy, >>> Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack at Cho. <<< You think Harry wanted Cho *that badly* to actually eliminate Cedric on the way? Then why would he have nightmares about Cedric in summer? Out of guilt? I don't even believe Cho loved Cedric, she probably played along to remain as a girlfriend of a popular good-looking guy - she's a social climber. Unless, you were being sarcastic and I just flipped out for no apparent reason. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:35:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:35:46 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > Yes, I meant that DD was NOT stupid for telling Harry about the > prophecy when he did, at the end of OoP, not anytime sooner. I think > it worked out for the best, VM still doesn't know about the prophecy > himself, and now Harry is aware of the connection and its danger, his > tricks (namely Sirius' death). And if HArry hadn't learned > Occlumency to some degree with Snape, he will actually put some > effort into it now. > > Brenda Well, we disagree on that one. Actually, "stupid" is the kindest word I call call Dumbledore for that. Harry ABSOLUTELY should have been told at the beginning of the fifth year what was going on,IMO. Voldie DOES know about the prophecy. he learned about it (or at least first part of it) before he attacked Potters. Eavesdropper, remember? Children are injured, Harry almost got killed. Sirius is dead (or supposedly dead for me :o)). So, I see it as a complete disaster. And if Dumbledore is going ask Snape again to teach Harry... He is not just stupid, he is an idiot. :o) Alla From dklopp at ptd.net Fri Jun 11 20:25:29 2004 From: dklopp at ptd.net (Diane Klopp) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:25:29 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Maybe the connection between the two boys is stronger than what we've seen already, especially since Neville's name, of all the names Harry could have chosen, jumped into Harry's head at such a random time. I'm hoping we'll find out more about that prophecy and that it was no coincidence that Neville was the last one standing (well, trying to stand) with Harry at the MoM in OoP. > > I know Neville will never be as strong as Harry, but I'd like to see him come even more into his own. > --jenny from ravenclaw, defender of Harry 'till the end **************************** Diane: Hi, this is my first post. In regards to Neville coming into his own, I have the following thoughts: At the MoM, Neville is worried how Gran will react to finding out he broke his father's wand. I think she will surprise us (in Book 6) by being proud of his bravery with the DE's and tell Neville he acted like his father. That would mean a lot to him--coming from her. I think Gran will purchase Neville a new wand rather than punish him as I suppose he's thinking she will. To paraphrase Ollivander, "The wand choses the wizard not the other way around." With a new wand and his recently acquired confidence, Neville will become a great wizard IMHO. Diane From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri Jun 11 20:38:38 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100909 "Stefanie" wrote: Going along with this...How does LV not know where Snape's loyalties lie when DD lets everyone know that Snape was a spy at Karkaroff's trial? If he didn't know in the first 4 books, then after the DE break-out in OotP when those in prison are reunited with those who remained in public life, wouldn't someone have warned that DD vouched for Snape? Lady Macbeth replied: Perhaps. But, as Sirius mentioned in Prisoner of Azkaban, a lot of those same Death Eaters were certain that "the traitor had turned traitor again" - that Peter Pettigrew was responsible for Voldemort's disappearance at the Potters. A lot of them would have likely come back badmouthing Pettigrew and speculating that he had gone back to Dumbledore as well, and since Voldemort knew better than that, he wouldn't have as much reason to feel they were right about any other Death Eaters going back to Dumbledore. After all, it was Voldemort himself who pointed out how many of them seemed "less than loyal" in trying to find him after he disappeared. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri Jun 11 20:54:47 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:54:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100910 JKR is fond of using historically real names for certain characters. I'm wondering if the person in Harry's textbook after whom Hedwig is named is a real life witch (like Grindelwald...) There is a St Hedwig and a Hedwig village. I couldn't find any occult associations, though... "celare_ulace" Lady Macbeth: HEDWIG f Usage: German (Teutonic) Derived from the Germanic elements hadu "contention" and wig "war". The most famous reference for Hedwig, and possibly the one Jo was thinking of when she named the owl, was St. Hedwig. http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainth03.htm An interesting quote from the biography section of that page caught my attention: "She allowed no one who came to her for help to go away uncomforted." How many times has Hedwig comforted Harry in the books? It may also be relevant to note that she married Prince Henry I of Silesia - and, as anyone who knows the royal family of today (or is good with English names) knows, "Harry" is a medieval English form of "Henry". (Prince Harry's full name is actually Prince Henry Charles Albert David.) -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 11 21:17:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:17:27 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100911 Kneasy: > > Nah, it was obviously Harry's fault, not Snape's. Stands to reason. > Harry was the one that insisted that Cedric grab hold of the Cup. > > Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack > at Cho. > > Terrible things, hormones; absolutely terrible. > Potioncat: Nope. Think about it. Where was ESE!Lupin all this time? Hiding in the bushes making it look like Crouch!Moody was doing that stuff. He probably also slipped Crouch!Moody a potion that would make him lie under veritiserum. From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 21:25:10 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:25:10 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Kneasy: > > > > Nah, it was obviously Harry's fault, not Snape's. Stands to reason. > > Harry was the one that insisted that Cedric grab hold of the Cup. > > > > Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack > > at Cho. > > > > Terrible things, hormones; absolutely terrible. > > > > > Potioncat: > Nope. Think about it. Where was ESE!Lupin all this time? Hiding > in the bushes making it look like Crouch!Moody was doing that > stuff. He probably also slipped Crouch!Moody a potion that would > make him lie under veritiserum. Melpomene: And where would Lupin GET such a potion? From SNAPE. See? It's still ALL Snape's fault, the evil, evil, one-dimensional character that he is. Mel, quite enjoying this From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 21:43:31 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:43:31 -0000 Subject: New thoughts on Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100913 > "Stefanie" wrote: > How does LV not know where Snape's loyalties lie when DD lets > everyone know that Snape was a spy at Karkaroff's trial? If he > didn't know in the first 4 books, then after the DE break-out in > OotP when those in prison are reunited with those who remained in > public life, wouldn't someone have warned that DD vouched for Snape? Lady Macbeth replied: > Perhaps. But, as Sirius mentioned in Prisoner of Azkaban, a lot > of those same Death Eaters were certain that "the traitor had turned > traitor again" - that Peter Pettigrew was responsible for Voldemort's > disappearance at the Potters. A lot of them would have likely come > back badmouthing Pettigrew and speculating that he had gone back to > Dumbledore as well, and since Voldemort knew better than that, he > wouldn't have as much reason to feel they were right about any other > Death Eaters going back to Dumbledore. After all, it was Voldemort > himself who pointed out how many of them seemed "less than loyal" in > trying to find him after he disappeared. Stefanie: "Get up, Avery," said Voldemort softly. "Stand up. You ask for forgiveness? I do not forgive. I do not forget. Thirteen long years ... I want thirteen years' repayment before I forgive you. Wormtail here has paid some of his debt already, have you not, Wormtail?" (GoF 33) 'Get it himself?' shrieked Bellatrix, over a cackle of mad laughter. The Dark Lord, walk into the Ministry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return?[...]' 'So, he's got you doing his dirty work for him, has he?' said Harry. 'Like he tried to get Sturgis to steal it - and Bode?' 'Very good, Potter, very good ' said Malfoy slowly.' (OotP 35) 'Oh, you don't know Potter as I do, Bellatrix,' said Malfoy softly. 'He has a great weakness for heroics; the Dark Lord understands this about him. Now give me the prophecy, Potter.' (OotP 35) The DEs living publicly are in "thirteen years of service" to LV. LV cannot just waltz around getting his own information because he's quite wanted (also, Sirius tells us that Voldemort probably didn't kill Regulus because he gets others to do that unimportant work...or something to that effect). Lucius says that Bellatrix doesn't know Harry like he does -- but Voldemort knows Harry's "weakness for heroics." Where would he get the idea to use Sirius? Where would he get the idea to play on Harry's heroics? LV _is_ using information that he gets from his DEs...just because none of them could deduce that Peter was really alive (something no one but LV could've because he's been with him all through GoF) doesn't mean he can afford to discount all of their information -- and if he thinks someone is trying to betray him...he is a skilled Legilimens (Occlumency is portrayed as a rare gift or else, as is being debated, anyone other than Snape could've taught Harry.) If a publicly living DE were to tell LV about DD vouching for Snape as a spy, I don't see why he would have a reason not to believe them. Stefanie From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 22:17:47 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] the opening of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611221747.55054.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100914 Justine wrote: "I have come close to using a chapter very like this in 'Philosopher's Stone' (it was one of the discarded first chapters), 'Prisoner of Azkaban' and 'Order of the Phoenix' but here, finally, it works, so it's staying. And that's all I'm going to say, but when you read it, just know that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing." We know, from a Christmas 2001 BBC special, that she wrote and discarded fifteen chapters of PS that simply gave too much away. On her wesbite, she tells us that: "There were many different versions of the first chapter of 'Philosopher's Stone'[...]The trouble with that chapter was (as so often in a Harry Potter book) I had to give a lot of information yet conceal even more. There were various versions of scenes in which you actually saw Voldemort entering Godric's Hollow and killing the Potters[...]" PoA and OotP were quite obviously the books *most* connected to the MWPP era, and were therefore the most likely candidates for inclusion of a glimpse at the tragedy of Godric's Hollow. However, it was probably still far too early. But now, with only two books left... My heart is in my throat. Justine My reply: Hmm it's a thought I guess but I still think it has more to do with Harry's birth or maybe James and Lily's wedding. I still maintain it was something that happened at one of those events that changed the dynamics of the marauders forever. It caused a riff between everyone, that's what I keep thinking. I think it's going to be the key as to why Sirius and James believed Lupin to have already gone evil. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Jun 11 22:27:23 2004 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:27:23 -0000 Subject: A Question about name-calling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Meri - who thinks we should have an on-list euphamism > > for "mudblood". "Differently parented" perhaps? > > No euphemism needed -- they're called "Muggle-born." > > Annemehr > who did appreciate the joke, too I must agree. I am so tired of seeing MUDBLOOD in reference to muggleborn (ie Hermione). That is like saying the N word. Oh ya it is. At least in the Potterverse it is. And Ron would hex you but good. :) So can we please write Muggle-born? Or 1/2 blood or well, maybe you can come up with something else... but, mudblood is rather nasty.. lets me mice... i mean nice... Thanks.. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 22:49:10 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:49:10 -0000 Subject: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > I've been thinking - I'll try anything at least once. As you can see below I've tried to > match the characters in the books to traditional roles. ( Hope this formats properly ) > > Hero Harry > Heroine Uncertain; probably Hermione, could be Lily > Excitable sidekick Ron > Nerdy sidekick Hermione > Mentor Dumbledore > Conscience Hermione, McGonagall > Support team The Weasleys > Damaged and > anguished heroes Sirius, Lupin > Bluff, kindly charac. Hagrid > Evil mastermind Voldemort > 'Igor' Wormtail > Baddies Malfoy, father and son > Baddies dim > henchmen Crabbe and Goyle, fathers and sons > Nasty stepmother Petunia > Man of Mystery Snape > Bumbling fool Fudge > Butt of jokes,tricks Neville > > This leaves two vacancies - both of which are believable only as Harry grows older; > firstly, to please the Shippers, there's the love interest. ( See any page on the list.) > Whoever finally fills the role is likely to have been introduced already. > > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent who worms her > way into the hero's affections / confidence with the intention of betraying him, or > goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. Fleur and Cho are unlikely to have the > background or experience to play the part. It would need someone a bit more mature > to flatter and beguile an impressionable growing lad. > > It's a bit of an oddity that the only non-pupil female who is described as in any way > attractive is Madame Rosmerta, and she fulfills the sterotype of the traditional > barmaid. All the rest appear to be 'motherly' or 'professional' sterotypes. > > Do witches become cosmetically challenged as they mature? I doubt it. There's > definitely a gap there. I don't necessarily predict that it will be filled in the next book, > but eventually it will be. > > Kneasy Going back through old posts just before the release of OOTP and ran across this. The thread ended before the book was published and as far as i can tell, not revisited. We did get a few new female characters and more info on some we already knew. Kneasy, or anyone else, did you find anyone to fill the temptress role before the end of the story? Lets see, theres the new characters of Umbridge and Tonks. We got lots of juicy stuff on Bellatrix. A few new insights into Narcissa and Susan Bones. And maybe the most likely, (or not) Luna. Love to get your imput everyone. Jason From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 23:01:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:01:35 -0000 Subject: the opening of Book 6 In-Reply-To: <20040611221747.55054.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100917 > Justine previously: > "I have come close to using a chapter very like this > in 'Philosopher's Stone' (it was one of the discarded first > chapters), 'Prisoner of Azkaban' and 'Order of the Phoenix' but > here, finally, it works, so it's staying. And that's all I'm going > to say, but when you read it, just know that it's been about > thirteen years in the brewing." snip > PoA and OotP were quite obviously the books *most* connected to the > MWPP era, and were therefore the most likely candidates for > inclusion of a glimpse at the tragedy of Godric's Hollow. However, > it was probably still far too early. But now, with only two books > left... > > My heart is in my throat. > Melanie: > My reply: Hmm it's a thought I guess but I still think it has more to do with Harry's birth or maybe James and Lily's wedding. I still maintain it was something that happened at one of those events that changed the dynamics of the marauders forever. It caused a riff between everyone, that's what I keep thinking. I think it's going to be the key as to why Sirius and James believed Lupin to have already gone evil. Alla: Melanie, I think you are up to something. :o) Now if it will turn out indeed that Lupin loved Lily, could he somehow let Lily know about it with James overhearing? It does not equal becoming Vodemort supporter, but maybe that is where suspicions and mistrust started from? Alla, whose support of ESE! Lupin diminished significantly after rereading PoA and watching movie. Sorry, Pippin. :o) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 11 23:06:41 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:06:41 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Kneasy: > > > > Nah, it was obviously Harry's fault, not Snape's. Stands to reason. > > Harry was the one that insisted that Cedric grab hold of the Cup. > > > > Probably wanted him out of the way so that he could have a crack > > at Cho. > > > > Terrible things, hormones; absolutely terrible. > > > > > Potioncat: > Nope. Think about it. Where was ESE!Lupin all this time? Hiding in the bushes making it look like Crouch!Moody was doing that stuff. He probably also slipped Crouch!Moody a potion that would make him lie under veritiserum.< No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 23:09:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:09:36 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's > wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two > Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? > > Pippin Oh, G-d , Pippin, for some reason that line had me in hysterics. Of course we can have two Wormtails. You know, special - buy one Wormtail, get another one free. :o) Alla From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 23:18:41 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco and Severus (was Sirius and the Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611231841.72087.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100920 boAt this point, Snape is the closest thing we have to a Slytherin who might buck the expectations. If he turns out to have Gryff connections, that sort of takes the complexity out of him to a certain extent and just plays him more into the black/white distinction of Gryff = good; Slyth = bad (and I know that Pettigrew debunks this theory somewhat, but I still think a Slyth who is fairly visible in the books needs to be shown in a good light for the black/white dichotomy to be really thrown out). My reply: Which is why I still maintain that Draco will turn out to be good. After reading OOp I started to think that perhaps Severus was Draco's godfather. I think that there is a special connection between Draco and Snape that I hasn't been in the books completely but there is some hint to it in OOP. During one of the occulumency lessons Draco comes into the room, and Snape calls him by his first name. I think he repeated this two or three times. To me it indicates that Snape calls him by his first name when they are not in class. I think this shows that Snape really cares for Draco in some form. I do not think that he is just "tolerating" him. He may just be tolerating Crabbe and Goyle but I think he truly likes Draco. The truth is he probably sees the potential that Draco has a human being. If Draco would help the good side and not the bad, if Snape can persuade him to do this it could be just the type of inner-house unity that is needed in the books. Will it happen, to be honest I'll be dissappointed if it doesn't. I just think there has to be more to Draco and honestly we did see a little bit more of him just in this scene. If nothing else we see that he appears to respect Snape and Snape seems to genuinely have some caring feelings towards Draco. Or I could be reading way too much into this. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 11 23:26:22 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:26:22 -0400 Subject: Who it's about was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult Message-ID: <10543691.1654EBA7.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100921 "Mel": > I was blown away when I first saw websites where people loved Snape > and hated Harry. One of the reason it disturbs me (mildly) is > exactly for the reason Darrin stated. These books are called Harry > Potter. This group is call "HP". I don't understand why someone > would like the books if they hate Harry. They're all about him. > Then join a group to discuss it is like going to a Star Trek > Convention to announce why Spock should be executed. :) > It's just > odd. Oryomai: Well, that's just it, isn't it? It's *not* all about Harry. It's about what he's going through. All the characters in the story contribute to the plot. Harry doesn't drive the entire plot; Harry doesn't do everything; Harry isn't perfect. Without Severus and Sirius and Ron and Hermione and Draco and Voldemort, there would be no book. The war in the Wizarding World would still go on without Harry; Harry's story would not go on without the war. I'm slightly offended by the fact that you call disliking Harry "odd". Why is that odd? Nobody says that it's odd to like Harry, so why should it be odd to dislike him? Liking/disliking one character doesn't affect how we like the books. I love Severus, Sirius, Remus, and the Weasley Twins. I dislike (not hate really) Harry, Hagrid, and Dumbledore. I'm still just as emotionally involved in the books as the people whose feelings are the opposite. I don't think it should be distubring to you (or Darrin *g*) that people feel differently about the characters in the book. Oryomai --Hm...I might be a little too emotionally invested in these books... From LadySawall at aol.com Fri Jun 11 23:28:04 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:28:04 EDT Subject: Snape's Fault! (was Re: Who's the adult...) Message-ID: <12b.43c5ec82.2dfb9a04@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100922 In a message dated 06/11/2004 7:08:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Mel writes: Melpomene: And where would Lupin GET such a potion? From SNAPE. See? It's still ALL Snape's fault, the evil, evil, one-dimensional character that he is. Mel, quite enjoying this --- Jo Ann: Oh, NO! I've started the HP fandom answer to the Kevin Bacon game!! [Hangs head in shame] ;) Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 00:00:20 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:00:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100923 > > Now Phil chimes in: > > 2. And if DD makes it known that Duddy is a wizard, shouldn't he > start > > attending Hogwarts as a first year student? > > > Bowlwoman: > > I don't know if Dudley would attend Hogwarts or not. It's a tricky > business, given the time parameters involved. We know Hagrid was > expelled during his 3rd year and was told not to do magic w/o > permission. That doesn't mean he CAN'T do it or doesn't know the > correct incantations, only that he's legally prohibited. Since it is > possible for students to leave Hogwarts after their 5th year, I don't > know that the MoM could force Dudley to attend. It would be in his > best interest, no doubt, but he could always be tutored by someone to > get the basics. Can you see Harry trying to teach Dudley to levitate > something? :) > > bowlwoman Luckie: I take no credit for this idea, and I don't necessarily believe in it, but some people on this list think only the best wizards go to Hogwarts - are that there are a lot of wizards who don't. Hogwarts is therefore the eqivalent of a top-notch muggle school, while other kids just go to "Trade school." Maybe, if this is the case, we can see what happens to untrained wizards - at least untrained by hogwarts. ~Luckie From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 00:03:43 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:03:43 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100924 > > Pippin wrote: > > No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's > > wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two > > Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? > > > > Alla > Oh, G-d , Pippin, for some reason that line had me in hysterics. Of > course we can have two Wormtails. You know, special - buy one > Wormtail, get another one free. :o) > Neri now: Good idea. We can also have two Siriuses. This way we can have one ESE!Sirius who got killed (by ESE!Lupin, naturally) and one good Sirius who is alive. That should satisfy everybody. Neri From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 00:08:17 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:08:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100925 | From: klmf1 | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 8:50 AM | | Actually, the one thought that keeps coming to my mind is that the | real person at fault here, and no one (at least that I've | observed....I may not have caught all the posts) is Dumbledore and his | poor judgement on how much to divulge to Harry from the beginning. | | Harry respects DD, indeed it can be said he loves him, and consciously | or subconsciously sees him as a father figure and a source of security | and stability in his life. But all through the OotP Dumbledore has | markedly *avoided* any meaningful contact with Harry. Indeed I have | to admit to feeling for Harry every time DD failed him emotionally and | can't blame Harry for his anger and frustration. DD repeatedly failed | him when Harry needed him most. Had DD explained his actions and | reasonings to Harry from the beginning, either directly or through | someone Harry *likes, trusts, and respects*, Harry probably would have | made better choices on how to act. [Lee]: Yes, indeed...even a letter or something...even one that would self-destruct after it had been read to keep it out of anyone else's hands. But, yes, something to re-assure Harry that he hadn't ended up on Dd's bad side, so to speak, which was what Harry was afraid of--that he had somehow offended Dd. But, Dd did admit to making mistakes; no doubt, that was one of those. [Karen continues]: | What's more, it IS in DD's power | to implore upon Snape that for the Occlumency lessons to be effective, | Snape MUST treat Harry respectfully and refrain from demeaning | comments that frankly only serve to ensure the lessons fail. [Lee]: Well, Dd could try, and may have...we don't know. But Even Dd said there were scars that ran deep and, possibly, all the emploring in the universe wouldn't be able to really effect a change. [Karen]: | Being | "only 15" does not excuse Harry from bad behaviors but being 15*is* an | emotionally and hormonally tumultuous period of development. Teenagers | are inclined to obsess in order to make sense of their world and have | some sense of control within it, and given to great frustration when | they can't find good answers or reasons. They crave independence but | also some kind of guidance whether they will admit to it or not. [Lee]: Add to that, the emotions of the Voldebeast coming into his being, already charged up, and the combination is lethal. Like I had said in one of my first posts, we've got Harry going through the teen hormone charge, Volde's emotions charging him more, people he trusts being vague or distant or not really communicative... Hey, I'm not a teen and I'd probably be going nuts! It's a big blow when someone to whom you look for some support, understanding or assurance is suddenly just not providing that. [Karen]: | It's easy to forget what it's like to be young. [Lee]: Sometimes, yes. And when one looks back, one doesn't want to have to admit to having the tendencies of teens. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who refuses to grow up!) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From brynnleet at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 22:30:23 2004 From: brynnleet at yahoo.com (brynnleet) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:30:23 -0000 Subject: Who's to Blame/Ending Occulmency/Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100926 "K": > I don't know about you, but if someone just told me one of the most > powerful dark wizards might try and make me do things I'd really > practice hard. > Btervet: I have to disagree (which probably isn't best for a first time poster). The main reason I think that Snape and Dumbledore are to blame here is because they gave no reason for Harry to change his priorities. Their priority is to protect Harry, but Harry's priority is to stop LV. Harry knows that Occulmency is important to protect himself, but he also thinks that it prevents him from saving others and stopping LV(e.g. Mr. Weasley). Because DD failed to tell Harry that he's the only one who can stop LV, Harry doesn't care as much about protecting himself as he does helping others. Since Harry's first year the only way he could stop LV is to disobey orders from teachers. MM told Harry not to worry about the Sorcerer's Stone. Snape told Harry to turn in Sirius before hearing him out, etc. Why should Harry listen now, just because Snape et all say it's important. Harry requires a better reason than to keep himself safe. *This* is what Snape didn't provide and *this* is why Harry stopped Occulmency. From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 23:37:38 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:37:38 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100927 (Hi, I'm new! Hope I'm doing this right.) Interesting, whether or not one loves or hates Harry. I like him, but not love him. You see, I feel there are times when Harry bugs me but these are rare and his behavior is understandable. Harry often gets angry and lashes out at those around him - one thing I'm not particularly fond of - but being under the same circumstance I can hardly think of an indiviudual, let alone teen boy who wouldn't behave in exactly the same way. I don't think Harry would ever be openly cruel for no good reason, but I think he seriously needs to get his rage under control before he causes tragedy to come to him - more than it already has. In the end though, I think I like him...not love, not hate...just like. (Did I do this right?) From pink_sugar_melody_17 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 00:07:50 2004 From: pink_sugar_melody_17 at hotmail.com (iclavenderstarz) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:07:50 -0000 Subject: First Post...What if Dumbledore exists out of the 4 dimensional WW? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100928 Well, this is here is my first post even though I've been lurking here for quite awhile. I know that there are theories that Ron= DD and they provide sufficient amount of canonical evidence for their theories. Although I do believe that this theory is really strong, I came upon an idea that some may have already presented but I haven't read while lurking for the past few months. Okay This all just speculation that came to me as I was washing dishes earlier . I was rereading a book by Kurt Vonnegut called "The Sirens of Titan" and there was a man who exist out of space and time. He was described as a wave that blips in and out of the specific timeline. He is a man who seems to know everything and even causes things to happen to one person. He is all knowing because he has been there or he caused these things to happen. Now I was thinking, what if DD also exist out of the 4 dimension of things? We all know that DD defeated the evil wizard Grindenwald in 1945. At this time, Tom Riddle was also in school and wrote in his diary that DD had auburn hair then and taught transfiguration. Yet DD, said in his youth he had eaten a vomit flavored Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean. Also, one of the OWLS administers said that he oversaw DD's OWLS himself. DD is over a hundred years old and this OWLS overseer should be at least 20-30 years older wait I don't even know how old you have to be to give those test . I guess if DD exists out of time and space he could exist as a child or an old man in any part of the timeline that the books run. Maybe Grindenwald place him in that existence? I know this theory is bogus but Ron= DD is the only theory out there that I have read that would suffice as explanations to certain inconsistencies with DD's existence. Lavender, a person who thinks that Dumbledore already knows the entire future of the Wizarding World therefore allows him to leave Hogwarts once in a while . From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Jun 12 00:21:27 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:21:27 -0000 Subject: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100929 I have not read every post in this thread, please accept my apologies if I am repeating something already said. Darrin speculated: > I really do wonder about people who find such fault with Harry, who > seem to speak of Harry with such disdain, who adore everything about > Snape and sometimes, the other Slytherins - (Please note that I am > not applying all of this to this particular poster - I simply have > not read enough of his/her thoughts to know) > > It makes me wonder what they get out of the books, if they are > cheering for the bad guys. Darrin, you might find it interesting to read this post: http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000036.html originally post number 34802 on HPFGU. See especially the section that begins: "Readers might choose to privilege a subversive reading for any number of different reasons: political bias, aesthetic preference, philosophical protest, playful humor, or plain old-fashioned perversity. In most cases, though, the decision to espouse a subversive reading reflects some degree of dissatisfaction with one or more aspects of a work which otherwise holds great appeal. Subversive readings are usually a symptom of a deep reader ambivalence about the text as a whole." I understand there is a distinction between a subversive theory (such as ESE!Lupin) and disliking a generally well-loved character such as Harry without hanging any particular theory on that dislike. However, I think the two phenomena are related. Often dislike (or like of a generally disliked character) is based I also note that no matter how many readers cheer on - or hiss - any character, it will not have the slightest effect on the outcome of events in books 6 and 7, nor will it affect my experience of reading that outcome. David, amused by the sight of 11,000 'grownups' searching for an adult... From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sat Jun 12 00:22:32 2004 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:22:32 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and the Camelot connections of the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm857158367" > wrote: > > "Obvious" to me, mainly, and that's probably a poor choice of > > words. I guess I see elements of the Camelot legend in all the > > characters, but not an exact blueprint. Arthur Weasley fits > because > > of his name; Harry because he's the lead of the series who makes > the > > sacrifices, etc. > > GEO:Aside from them being raised in obscurity, there really isn't > that much of a similarity between the Harry and Arthur. Really, > Harry wasn't conceived as a bastard with his father killing his > mother's husband all in order to wed her. Nor does he have a half- > sister trying to kill him or a bastard son that he sired with > another one of his half-sisters trying to overthrow him because he > tried to kill him King Herod style. Simply said there isn't much > resemblance between the two and any can be chalked up as both being > hero archetypes. I see the Arthur Weasley and the Camalot connection differently. In some (i'm not gonna say all) stories about Arthur and Guenavere (sp?),it has been said that Arthur KNEW he should not have married her, because he was already married to his kingdom. I see HP stories incoporation of the Camelot connection as this: Arthur (MoM) Harry (Lancealot) (sp?)... the guy who ultimatly saves the day. Ginny (Guen...) the women who loves Lance(sp?)... As we know from the story... Ginny can't marry her father, but, she can marry her true love.. da ta da.. Harry. But, JKR might kill off good old harry.. so poor Ginny just might end up in a nunnery just like old Queen Guenn. sigh... > GEO:I doubt it. Ginny is still a pretty minor character in the book > and the next two books are probably going to focus on the war and > less on the romantic aspirations of the characters. Tis true, Ginny is a pretty minor character.. and Harry doesn't seem to run around thinking about her all the time.. so just cause she used to be crazy about him.. doesn't mean it is going to go anywhere.. I just wanted to share my idea about Camelot and HP. I guess I just see it this way cause JKR alway changes her myths to suit her plot... intertwining lots of well know stories and ledgends to create her own little (very popular) world.. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 12 00:53:41 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:53:41 -0400 Subject: a thought about career's advice Message-ID: <009e01c45017$b57dd8d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100931 I'm rereading OOP and right now I'm on the career's advice chapter. All those leaflets that tell them what OWLs and NEWTs different jobs require... shouldn't they have gotten those when they had to choose additional subjects like arithmancy, muggle studides, etc? I thought of this because Harry was reading the Gringott's Treasure hunter leaflet and it said they wanted arithmancy and he said, sounds interesting, well Hermione can do it. You'd think kids would need this info when choosing what subjects to take... Alina. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 12 01:10:24 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:10:24 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <009e01c45017$b57dd8d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <40CAE4A0.7939.5D10C19@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100932 On 11 Jun 2004 at 20:53, Alina wrote: > I thought of this because Harry was reading the Gringott's Treasure hunter > leaflet and it said they wanted arithmancy and he said, sounds interesting, > well Hermione can do it. > > You'd think kids would need this info when choosing what subjects to take... I kind of assume that there probably was advice around - but Harry didn't pay any attention. He's older now, and a little bit wiser, so he is actually looking at his options and thinking about them - but when he first selected subjects at the end of Second Year, he didn't really do so. Chamber of Secrets does describe the process - and basically, indicates that only Hermione took it very seriously. There's no specific reference to teachers giving the kids any advice - although Percy is mentioned as advising Harry, but in the end Harry doesn't seem to make a particularly informed decision: "But the only thing Harry felt he was really good at was Quidditch. In the end, he chose the same new subjects as Ron, feeling that if he was lousy at them, at least he'd have someone friendly to help him." There may well have been pamphlets, etc, about - but Harry doesn't seem to have taken the process that seriously. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 12 01:37:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:37:14 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <40CAE4A0.7939.5D10C19@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: o. > > Chamber of Secrets does describe the process - and basically, indicates that only Hermione took it very seriously. There's no specific reference to teachers giving the kids any advice - although Percy is mentioned as advising Harry, but in the end Harry doesn't seem to make a particularly informed decision: > > "But the only thing Harry felt he was really good at was Quidditch. In the end, he chose the same new subjects as Ron, feeling that if he was lousy at them, at least he'd have someone friendly to help him." > > There may well have been pamphlets, etc, about - but Harry doesn't seem to have taken the process that seriously.<< Harry didn't but I suspect that Ron did. I think his desire to become an Auror is longstanding and he kept it secret, like his desire to play Quidditch. IMO, he chose CoMC as the course most likely to be useful in that adventurous line of work and Divination because he didn't think it would be too difficult, allowing him to concentrate on the other studies he needs. But I could be wrong. Pippin From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 01:43:29 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:43:29 -0000 Subject: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100934 In response to Kneasy and Jason's threads on the Missing Character (refs. below): I think that we have not met the evil temptress yet, if there is going to be one. Harry had his first attempt at romance with Cho and he'll be 16 too, the age at which many people experience their first "serious" romance. (Cho was just a warm-up, not anything serious, just the normal bumbling of early adolesence--remember being there >:( ?!?!-- )Plus, he's got lots of anger, sorrow and even guilt, now is the time for an "Evil Temptress" to enter the stage. It seems that none of the characters we've met yet would fit the bill of "Evil Temptress" - they're either too familiar to Harry, too much older than him, or just _not_ evil! Books 6 & 7 will have surprises, and this may be one of them! HedwigsTalons --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > I've been thinking - I'll try anything at least once. As you can > see below I've tried to > > match the characters in the books to traditional roles. ( Hope > this formats properly ) > > > > Hero Harry > > Heroine Uncertain; probably Hermione, could be Lily > > Excitable sidekick Ron > > Nerdy sidekick Hermione > > Mentor Dumbledore > > Conscience Hermione, McGonagall > > Support team The Weasleys > > Damaged and > > anguished heroes Sirius, Lupin > > Bluff, kindly charac. Hagrid > > Evil mastermind Voldemort > > 'Igor' Wormtail > > Baddies Malfoy, father and son > > Baddies dim > > henchmen Crabbe and Goyle, fathers and sons > > Nasty stepmother Petunia > > Man of Mystery Snape > > Bumbling fool Fudge > > Butt of jokes,tricks Neville > > > > This leaves two vacancies - both of which are believable only as > Harry grows older; > > firstly, to please the Shippers, there's the love interest. ( See > any page on the list.) > > Whoever finally fills the role is likely to have been introduced > already. > > > > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent > who worms her > > way into the hero's affections / confidence with the intention of > betraying him, or > > goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. Fleur and Cho are > unlikely to have the > > background or experience to play the part. It would need someone a > bit more mature > > to flatter and beguile an impressionable growing lad. > > > > It's a bit of an oddity that the only non-pupil female who is > described as in any way > > attractive is Madame Rosmerta, and she fulfills the sterotype of > the traditional > > barmaid. All the rest appear to be 'motherly' or 'professional' > sterotypes. > > > > Do witches become cosmetically challenged as they mature? I doubt > it. There's > > definitely a gap there. I don't necessarily predict that it will > be filled in the next book, > > but eventually it will be. > > > > Kneasy > > > > Going back through old posts just before the release of OOTP and ran > across this. The thread ended before the book was published and as > far as i can tell, not revisited. > > We did get a few new female characters and more info on some we > already knew. > > Kneasy, or anyone else, did you find anyone to fill the temptress > role before the end of the story? > > Lets see, theres the new characters of Umbridge and Tonks. We got > lots of juicy stuff on Bellatrix. A few new insights into Narcissa > and Susan Bones. And maybe the most likely, (or not) Luna. > > Love to get your imput everyone. > > Jason From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 01:45:15 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:45:15 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100935 I think Gran will purchase Neville a new wand rather than punish him > as I suppose he's thinking she will. To paraphrase Ollivander, "The > wand choses the wizard not the other way around." With a new wand > and his recently acquired confidence, Neville will become a great > wizard IMHO. > > Diane I think you have a point here. I just finished re-reading that book and was actually think of the same thing. Neville has always had trouble with his spells, and then it finally dawned on me why he did so bad when he said that the wand was his fathers. The wand must choose the wizard, not hte other way around. When Neville gets his new wand, because that is a must, he cant get on in school without it...I think he will most definately come into his own. As well as getting more confidence... Jacqui From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 01:53:54 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:53:54 -0000 Subject: Lily destroyed Voldemort?? Was: Re: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Snow : > > This very thought occurred to me recently but from a different > angle. > > I wanted to know why in the priori incantatem we did not see or > hear > > of an echo of what happened to Harry and Voldemort that night at > > Godric's Hollow. This echo should have been right before Lily's > > appearance. In searching for an answer I found the same question > that > > you just posed of one green light being mentioned. If Lily were > > protecting Harry from Voldemort then he would have been in the > room > > to see the green light that killed her and a second green light at > > the attempt on his own life but there doesn't appear to have been > a second green light. > > Jen: > When you look at the people who came out of the wand (and > Pettigrew's hand), you see only the effects of completed spells. > I've always imagined that when Voldemort's AK hit Harry and > backfired, the intended curse wasn't completed and therefore wasn't > part of the Priori Incantatem. > > I guess you could say the spell was completed though, just not in > the way LV intended. So then you have to believe there was only one > AK that rebounded off Harry and killed Lily before hitting > Voldemort. And somewhere in all that mess, powers were transferred > to Harry! > > Snow: > > Harry said there was a lot of green light. If, in this theory, you > > follow the light from Voldemort's wand towards Harry, it could not > > hit Harry because Lily attached herself to Harry. So the green > light > > had to find the physical body of Harry's protector. Lily may have > > been lying some feet from where Harry actually was. The green > light > > then hit Lily's physical body, which was sacrificed to keep the > > shield alive so it rebounded onto Voldemort. The green light > hitting > > Voldemort destroyed his body and expelled some of his powers onto > > Harry in the same manner that Snape's memories backfired to Harry. > > The initial connection between Harry and his mother allowed her > > abilities to also be instilled in Harry because her physical body > was > > separated from her actual being which was connected to Harry when > her > > physical body was destroyed. > > Jen: I like your idea here, if I'm understanding right, that some of > Lily was *also* transferred to Harry that night. Your theory reminds > me of lightening, how it has to find a conductor, and in this case > Lily would be that conductor of the curse. > > The only thing is, how did Harry get the scar? If the AK couldn't > touch him in any way, it would seem that Voldemort's powers could > not be transferred to him either. He would be protected from > anything. > > It's hard to fit in the "step aside, girl" with only one AK; Lily > appears to be standing in front of Harry. But perhaps if she didn't > step aside, the one AK hit both her and Harry and the force of the > rebound off Harry is what made the scar, transferred the powers and > reduced Voldemort to vapor. HedwigsTalons replies: Then, would this mean that it was LILY, and _not Harry_, who actually destroyed Voldemort? But, the WW perspective on it is that Harry destroyed Voldemort, since he is "The Boy who Lived", while Lily died from her sacrifice? Her wand _was_ useful for charms, according to Ollivander. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 02:05:37 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:05:37 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <009e01c45017$b57dd8d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100937 > You'd think kids would need this info when choosing what subjects to take... > > Alina. You make a great point there, I was wondering it myself today. That is something that should be done maybe in 2nd year perhaps. I dont think doing it in the first year is a good idea though, they are quite young then... From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jun 12 02:12:09 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:12:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) Message-ID: <8c.d30a97e.2dfbc079@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100938 In a message dated 6/11/04 5:53:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk writes: >Snape should not have done WHAT!!!! Does everything now have to be locked away on the off-chance that Harry might decide to indulge his curiosity about things that don't concern him. Malfoy had just come in with the news that Montague.,who had been missing for (I think) a fortnight, had turned up jammed inside a toilet on the fourth floor. Snape, who must have been going grey over those two weeks, wondering how, as Head of House, he was going to explain to Montague's parents, rushes off to see if the kid is OK. As far as we know, Snape has no idea that Harry knows what a Pensieve is, or what it's functions are. Perhaps in hind-sight he should have bundled Harry out of the room and locked the door but his first thoughts must naturally have been of getting to his pupil. We know that leaving Harry alone with the Pensieve is like leaving an arsonist with a box of matches, but Severus didn't know that. Sylvia (who wonders if there is anything the poor sod doesn't get blamed for)< I do remember why he left the room, but everytime that Harry came in to do occlumency lessons, Snape had the Pensieve out, not only that, he took out memories and put them into the Pensieve in front of Harry. Don't you think that it is showing Harry how the Pensieve works? when taking out your memories by the wand and putting it into the Pensieve? How much taunting does Harry have to take? Don't get me wrong, I like Snape as a character. I hope that Harry and Snape can work together, but Snape has to stop taunting Harry. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 12 02:12:24 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:12:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005001c45022$b606b6e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 100939 > You'd think kids would need this info when choosing what subjects to take... > > Alina. Sherry How many kids have any idea what they want to do for a career, when they are 12 or 13? I certainly didn't. My niece is 16, and she still doesn't know. My best friend's son is 14, and he doesn't have a clue yet. I don't think career advice would have been very effective at 12. In high school, kids take electives, but it is often just things that interest them or that they think will be easy. It doesn't always have anything to do with what they end up doing later. I thought the career advice was perfectly timed in their fifth year, as they are preparing for their O.W.L.'S and considering what they might want to study next year. Of course, I have known some people who have known what they wanted to do for most of their lives, but that hasn't been the norm. Sherry G From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 12 02:17:54 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:17:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice References: <005001c45022$b606b6e0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <023201c45023$7920b2c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100940 > How many kids have any idea what they want to do for a career, when they are > 12 or 13? I certainly didn't. My niece is 16, and she still doesn't know. > My best friend's son is 14, and he doesn't have a clue yet. I don't think > career advice would have been very effective at 12. In high school, kids > take electives, but it is often just things that interest them or that they > think will be easy. It doesn't always have anything to do with what they > end up doing later. I thought the career advice was perfectly timed in > their fifth year, as they are preparing for their O.W.L.'S and considering > what they might want to study next year. Of course, I have known some > people who have known what they wanted to do for most of their lives, but > that hasn't been the norm. > > Sherry G But what I'm saying is, say Harry read this Gringott's leaflet and said, "You know what, I fancy working for them." Only they say he needs a NEWT in Arithmancy and Hogwarts' Arithmancy teacher is refusing to accept anyone without an Acceptable OWL in it. Harry, having never taken Arithmancy before, is stuck isn't he? I'm guessing kids just end up having to hope that whatever they liked in their second year will coincide with what they think they want to do in their fifth year. Alina. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 02:18:50 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:18:50 -0000 Subject: Late Magic ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > kljohnson7868 wrote: > > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in > > Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. > [huge snippage] > >Also, since JKR states that someone will do magic late, > > > Sorry, feeling thick. What's the source for this, please? > > Phil Bookworm: >From the Barnes and Noble Interview, March 1999: < No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. >> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0399- barnesandnoble.html IIRC the part about the bit in CoS being important later on is from the interview with JKR and Kloves on the DVD of CoS. Ravenclaw Bookworm From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jun 12 02:27:24 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:27:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100942 In a message dated 6/11/04 8:00:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: >But, to my real reply to this post: Snape didn't just "leave the pensieve out where Harry could get to it." Normally he takes his memories out, he teaches Harry, he puts them back. On this day, an emergency came up, he told Harry to leave (He indicated the session was cancelled.) and Snape rushed out to help the Slytherin who was stuffed in the toilet. (Don't let the humor of this overwhelm the seiousness of it. Pretend it's an Gryffindor.)< Personally, I would have laughed if it had been a Gryffindor and I like most Gryffindors. This wasn't the first emergency that Snape left the office while teaching Harry, if you recall, when Umbridge tried to evict Trelawney, Snape ran up the stairs. Harry took a moment and then followed. It would have been interesting if Harry had gone into the Pensieve at that time. But Harry had more of a curiousity about who screamed than what memories Snape had put in. I agree that Snape does help the Slytherins more than the Gryffindors, but I have no trouble with that, I have trouble with Snape being vindictive against Harry because of his father, not whether he takes points when they deserve it, or he does find them out of bounds. Harry knows this and he still went into the Pensieve because I do believe that Snape taunted Harry to do so. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 02:33:09 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:33:09 -0000 Subject: Any Bets on WHO will do Late Magic? (Was Re: Late Magic ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100943 > < the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather > than as children? > > No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows > itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who > does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in > life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. >> > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0399- > barnesandnoble.html > > IIRC the part about the bit in CoS being important later on is from > the interview with JKR and Kloves on the DVD of CoS. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm HedwigsTalons: My bet is on Petunia - because she has to save Dudley's life. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 02:39:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:39:22 -0000 Subject: Any Bets on WHO will do Late Magic? (Was Re: Late Magic ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" <> HedwigsTalons: > My bet is on Petunia - because she has to save Dudley's life. Maybe nobody, because didn't JKR promised it to be in earlier books? She did give up on the idea of Weasley's cousin coming to Hogwarts, for example. If she is still planning to do it, then yes, for suprise purposes either Petunia or Dudley seem to be obvious chpoices. Although, of course it will not really be surprise for us> :o) Anyway, my money is on Filtch. Maybe he finally learned something from his "magi for squibs" (sorry, don't remember the correct name) course. :o) Alla From LadySawall at aol.com Sat Jun 12 02:41:47 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:41:47 EDT Subject: Missing character Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100945 In a message dated 06/11/2004 10:18:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jason writes (quoting Kneasy): > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent > who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the intention of > betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. Jason: > Kneasy, or anyone else, did you find anyone to fill the temptress role before the end of the story? --- Jo Ann: I realize this means assigning more than one role to the same character, and I don't want to squick anybody. But speaking purely in terms of plot, didn't Voldemort fill that role in OotP? He caught Harry's interest with a seemingly innocuous, perhaps even beneficial series of visions, then lured him gradually into a trap, turning him against his friends and allies along the way. And Harry went willingly, blinded by his own curiosity to all the good reasons why he shouldn't. I'd have to call that a form of seduction, albeit it not in the physical sense. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 12 02:50:37 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:50:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing character References: Message-ID: <026301c45028$0ad9b410$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100946 > In a message dated 06/11/2004 10:18:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jason writes > (quoting Kneasy): > > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent > > who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the > intention of > > betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. > Jason: > > Kneasy, or anyone else, did you find anyone to fill the temptress > role before the end of the story? I'd have to say Bellatrix seems the most likely candidate to Evil Temptress. After all, she's beautiful, or was before Azkaban, but something tells me now that she's free, she'll find a way to restore her looks. She reminds me of all the typical Evil Temptresses, like the Witch in Chronicles Of Narnia. I agree, it's not very likely that Harry or any of his friends could be lulled by her into believing she wants to help them and then be betrayed, but who's to say she hasn't already done something like that in the past? She could've been the one who got Regulus into Voldemort's service, or maybe Wormtail? Alina. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 12 03:00:06 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:00:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Long lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100947 Kneasy: >>If Tom is Voldy, pure and simple, I can't. But I don't believe he is; Voldy is Tom plus something else IMO, something that was in the Chamber. Something that had been hanging around, tapping it's foot, waiting for somebody like Tom to turn up and be possessed and do it's bidding. Something that in form is very like the vapour of the Vapour!Mort formed after Godrics Hollow and Crumble!Quirrell. It wasn't a spell that created the vaprous entity - that was it's natural form; take away the body it's possessing and that's what's left. It'll hang around, weakened until it finds another victim. And it's damn near immortal; as DD says "Not being truly alive he cannot be killed" (PS chap 17) And unrepentantly evil to boot.<< ================== Sherrie here: Hmmm....are you a STAR TREK fan, by chance? Or a fan of old science fiction? This sort of thing is the premise of Robert Bloch's "Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper" - adapted to the TREK universe as the second-season episode "Wolf in the Fold". I'm not sure I can see JKR going that way, frankly... Sherrie (just back from her third viewing of PoA) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 12 03:02:56 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 03:02:56 -0000 Subject: Any Bets on WHO will do Late Magic? (Was Re: Late Magic ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100948 Interview Quote: > > < in > > the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather > > than as children? > > > > JKR: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows > > itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who > > does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in > > life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. >> > HedwigsTalons: > My bet is on Petunia - because she has to save Dudley's life. Jen: I was hoping it would be Dudley, so we'd get a description of Vernon's face when Dudders does magic for the first time!! But, since JKR said "quite late in life", my guess is Petunia or Mrs. Figg. That reminds me, has Trelawney ever done magic? I can't recall anything at the moment. I'd bet money on her, too. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 03:19:51 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 03:19:51 -0000 Subject: Draco and Severus (was Sirius and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <20040611231841.72087.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100949 Melanie wrote: After reading OOp I started to think that perhaps Severus was Draco's godfather. I think that there is a special connection between Draco and Snape that I hasn't been in the books completely but there is some hint to it in OOP. During one of the occulumency lessons Draco comes into the room, and Snape calls him by his first name. I think he repeated this two or three times. To me it indicates that Snape calls him by his first name when they are not in class. I think this shows that Snape really cares for Draco in some form. I do not think that he is just "tolerating" him. He may just be tolerating Crabbe and Goyle but I think he truly likes Draco. The truth is he probably sees the potential that Draco has a human being. Bookworm: I wondered about Snape calling him 'Draco' too, but don't think Snape "really cares" for him. Draco is too much of a coward (I *loved* the way Tom Felton portrayed him as the cowardly bully.) for Snape to respect. IMO, Snape does not tolerate weakness. If Snape sees potential, he obviously sees a side of Draco that I do not. I suspect that attitude of closeness has more to do with Snape, Lucius, and Voldemort than it does with Draco. Ravenclaw Bookworm From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 03:37:14 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:37:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100950 | From: Miller, Gina | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:39 AM | (snip) sorry | Gina: | If JKR said someone would learn magic at a late age I would say it | would be Hagrid! [Lee]: I think Hagrid knows a lot more than he lets on; his engorgement of the pumpkins, Dudders' tail and other things. He knows magic, just can't legally use it because his want was officially snapped. And, in Book 1, Ollivander sternly inquired of Hagrid whether he was still using magic. ----------BEGIN QUOTE---------- "Good wand, that one. But I suppose they snapped it in half when you got expelled?" said Mr. Ollivander, suddenly stern. "Er--yes, they did, yes," said Hagrid, shuffling his feet. "I've still got the pieces, though," he added brightly. "But you don't _use them?" said Mr. Ollivander sharply. "Oh, no, sir," said Hagrid quickly. Harry noticed he gripped his pink umbrella very tightly as he spoke. "Hmmm," said Mr. Ollivander, giving Hagrid a piercing look. (SS, US Edition.) ----------END QUOTE---------- So, maybe it's Figg or (horrors!) Filch? NOOOOO!!!!! Seriously, I don't think it's Hagrid. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 03:54:13 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:54:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry ending up in Nocturn Alley In-Reply-To: <029801c44fac$cf97fc70$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100951 | From: Littlekat10 | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 8:09 AM | | I have a theory about why Harry ended up in Nocturn Alley instead | of Diagon | Alley. My thought on this is this: Could it be that JKR was | trying to show | us how small a step it is to end up on the darker side of life? Consider | how Hagrid and Harry only had to walk a short distance to end up in Diagon | Alley. A very small step indeed. | | Or could it have just been "pure dumb luck!"? [Lee]: I like the theory a lot more than the dumb luck! I'd rather get my 5 points for vanquishing the troll on my turf than going to his, so to speak. It's just a good thing that Hagrid was there when Harry was in need; I'd hate to know what that hag would have done with/to him. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 02:56:40 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:56:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100952 | From: delwynmarch | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:57 AM | As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't | want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those | people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into | consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at | the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To me, | Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that | doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly | uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and | people outside my own private world. [Lee]: I'm gonna put on my analyzing hat here. Harry befriended Ron not for any gain but because Ron was simply nice to him. Harry, accustomed to being poor and living with hand-me-downs, who suddenly has a purse full of money, is willing to share with Ron and feels good about it, according to Book 1. As far as the Creevey kids go, yes, they adored Harry; they adored the fact that he was so famous and wanted, IMHO, to be able to say that they were in the same house and such with this famous wizard. The only time you see Colin taking most of his pictures is when Harry is around. I can say yes, Colin Creevey adored Harry, but it was more of an Idolistic adoration, not a real friendship adoration, IMHO. Harry's reaction was based on that...and Lockhart wasn't helping the situation. Colin was being rather intrusive...a real paparazzi. He wasn't really trying for a friendship, just an "in" with Harry. If Collin had been a bit more--uh--sensitive, he would have approached Harry differently and Harry, I'm sure, would have responded to an honest, friendly overture. So, I can't blame Harry for his actions pertaining to Colin. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 04:05:16 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 04:05:16 -0000 Subject: Any Bets on WHO will do Late Magic? (Was Re: Late Magic ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100953 > > HedwigsTalons: > > My bet is on Petunia - because she has to save Dudley's life. > Oh wow, I really like the thought of that. I was sitting here trying to think of someone, and that hits it right on the head. She is the most unlikely person to do it.... From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 12 04:10:58 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:10:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Liability for Sirius' death References: <1086886985.20210.85120.m12@yahoogroups.com> <004a01c44fce$f6c9e3e0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <02cb01c45033$44a6c1f0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 100954 It's strange, I see all these posts blaming Harry for Sirius' death, DD for Sirius' death, even Sirius himself. I blame Bellatrix Lestrange who was actually the person to murder Sirius and Voldemort who lured all those people into the DOM in the first place. Blaming Harry, DD, Snape, Sirius, etc, in my opinion, is resorting to a very 15-year-old-Harry-like point of view, who snaps at DD, snaps at his friends, snaps at everyone for things that ultimately the real bad guys are responsible for. Alina. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 04:13:58 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 04:13:58 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100955 To me, > | Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that > | doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly > | uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and > | people outside my own private world. > > [Lee]: Ok I can see where you are going with this, but you have to remember that Harry is only 15 years old. I remember how I was at 15 and if it didnt invovle me directly, I couldnt be bothered. No I am not saying that is how it should be, but that is the way most teenagers are. I read what Harry goes through and what he deals with on a daily basis, and I really dont see that he is totally out of line. There are times when his angry gets the best of him, but it is a fact of life, it happens to everyone. If I had to go through what he has, then I would probably react the same exact way. From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat Jun 12 04:29:41 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:29:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cheering on Harry (was : Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's... Message-ID: <29.59ee2538.2dfbe0b5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100956 In a message dated 6/11/2004 8:06:41 AM Mountain Standard Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Who are the Slytherins we know? > > Draco: Future DE if there ever was one > Crabbe, Goyle: Sons of DEs > Pansy Parkinson: Hateful little brat > > Maybe there is some hidden, "good Slytherin" kid out there, but JKR > hasn't chosen to show us yet. We must go with what we have. > > And right now, the House of Slytherin is V-Mort's prime training > ground for DEs. Will he get all of them? No, but he'll get enough to > keep the movement going, and even those who don't join openly > sympathize with V-Mort in spirit. > May I make I a small parallel here? What about Viktor Krum? He is schooled in a place that IMHO is far worse than Slytherin house, Durmstrang, which is headed by a former DE and where the Dark Arts are not only encouraged, but part of the required curriculum. But would I consider Viktor evil or likely to be a future DE? No. He takes Hermione, a muggle born, to the Yule Ball (with the obvious disapproval of Karkaroff) and is willing to discuss his intentions toward her, not to mention Quidditch, with Harry Potter, gentleman to gentleman. All it really takes, in my opinion, to resist the dark side, is moral courage and the brains to know what's good for you, neither of which Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, or Parkinson have. But after JKR's story on Theodore Nott, I wouldn't write him off yet. After all, remember who introduces him in OOP. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sat Jun 12 04:41:46 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:41:46 +1200 Subject: Draco - What I see. Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040612163229.029a3880@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 100957 Theories on Draco turning good abound online. I don't know, anything is possible. But what I do see with Draco is, that he has one clear thing in common with Harry, but unlike Harry, he hasn't been 'disappointed'. That thing is common is father worship. However, what direction Draco turns to if or when his father takes a huge fall from grace - (in Draco's eyes that is). The outcome there could be very telling and I feel it would determine his fate or future. Either that, or something happens to his mother, maybe an internal family power struggle. Nothing else would disturb his little world quite as badly. Tanya From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 04:57:14 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 04:57:14 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100958 Snow previously: > Harry said there was a lot of green light. If, in this theory, you > follow the light from Voldemort's wand towards Harry, it could not > hit Harry because Lily attached herself to Harry. So the green light > had to find the physical body of Harry's protector. Lily may have > been lying some feet from where Harry actually was. The green light > then hit Lily's physical body, which was sacrificed to keep the > shield alive so it rebounded onto Voldemort. The green light hitting > Voldemort destroyed his body and expelled some of his powers onto > Harry in the same manner that Snape's memories backfired to Harry. > The initial connection between Harry and his mother allowed her > abilities to also be instilled in Harry because her physical body was > separated from her actual being which was connected to Harry when her > physical body was destroyed. Jen: I like your idea here, if I'm understanding right, that some of Lily was *also* transferred to Harry that night. Your theory reminds me of lightening, how it has to find a conductor, and in this case Lily would be that conductor of the curse. Snow's reply: Yes, very much so! Jen again: The only thing is, how did Harry get the scar? If the AK couldn't touch him in any way, it would seem that Voldemort's powers could not be transferred to him either. He would be protected from anything. Snow: I am sorry that I failed to mention that Lily actually set up two charms in this scenario. One was a physical and/or psychological protection, which joined Lily to Harry in the sense that whatever attempted to hit Harry would ultimately rebound onto her own physical body wherever it may be and take the initial hit and kill her. The other charm that Lily invoked was a further protective act and had a rebounding effect that would allow any curse attempt to ricochet onto the person that initiated the strike. If this charm were much like the shield charm that Harry inevitably used during occlumency with Snape, it would have rebounded onto its intended victim, not thoughts in this case but actual personal connection. Jen: It's hard to fit in the "step aside, girl" with only one AK; Lily appears to be standing in front of Harry. But perhaps if she didn't step aside, the one AK hit both her and Harry and the force of the rebound off Harry is what made the scar, transferred the powers and reduced Voldemort to vapor. Snow: Lily's attempt was psychologically physical. That is she was shielding Harry with her physical body but, having thrice defied Voldemort, knew that it may be to no avail. Lily protected Harry, with a Hermione type wisdom that this initial charm may not work. So what could she try to do to combat it if he (Voldemort) tried to do whatever? Lily invoked the second charm as a precaution that resulted in not only saving her baby but also reducing Voldemort to vapor. The only thing that Lily didn't foresee was in using this type of charm was that Harry would ultimately receive some of Voldemort's powers via the shield effect noted in occlumency with Snape, the same affect but not the same result. This along with the unknown fact to Lily that Voldemort had been dabbling in immortality and may not be able to be physically killed thus the vapormort, gave Harry powers that he shouldn't have had along with some of her own by her initial connection. As for the scar Like I said previously, the attempt of the AK hit Harry but because of Lily's protection, that is stated above, didn't kill him, but it still attempted to hit him causing Harry to be struck and scared at the attempt, but not killed. So the initial hit of green light struck Harry but rebounded leaving a scar went to Lily killing her then to Voldemort and finally rebounding on the now unprotected child (because all of Lily's charms have now been used) that received some of Voldemort's powers. A whole lot of green light bouncing! Snow From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 12 05:15:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 05:15:12 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100959 Kneasy wrote: > Similar distinctions can be made in the way that the others are > perceived, too: > DD - caring, concerned / devious, manipulative. > Snape - abusive, hateful / driven by demons, doing what is > necessary > Harry - misunderstood, vulnerable / unreasonable, selfish > > OK, which is right? Who knows with any certainty? > Guess what? It doesn't matter. > The final resolution will not be determined by majority vote; it > doesn't count that I think Sirius is a creep, or that Snape is > deliciously nasty, or that I wouldn't trust DD as far as I could > throw Hogwarts, or that Harry is a selfish little toe-rag. Trying > to apportion blame fairly when holding those views would be like > trying to knit spaghetti. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Tee hee. Kniting spaghetti, Kneasy? I leave HPfGU for a few weeks, then head back over, only to find I've been missing a delightful discussion of Harry/Snape/DD and occulumency...and Kneasy's grand turns of phrase. :-) > What caused the debacle resulting in Sirius's demise? > > Causes: > Harry's inability to put his hatred of Snape in perspective. > It poisons all interactions between the two. No compromise was > possible in his view even when instructed that it was necessary. > DD being too clever by half. > Snape not admitting that it wasn't going to work. He's the one in a > position to judge progress or lack of it. He should have insisted > that DD take over long before it blew up. SSSusan: Oh. My. God. Did I read this right? Kneasy, did you say that Snape should have admitted it wasn't going to work??? I didn't think you ever saw fit to criticize Snape in any manner when it came to his teaching. Did someone convince you, or have you always believed this and I just didn't realize? Hmmm. Not much point to this post, is there? Sorry for that. Just glad to be back. "Happy HPfGU Anniversary," Kneasy. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 12 07:05:54 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:05:54 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <023201c45023$7920b2c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: snip > > But what I'm saying is, say Harry read this Gringott's leaflet and said, > "You know what, I fancy working for them." Only they say he needs a NEWT in > Arithmancy and Hogwarts' Arithmancy teacher is refusing to accept anyone > without an Acceptable OWL in it. Harry, having never taken Arithmancy > before, is stuck isn't he? > > I'm guessing kids just end up having to hope that whatever they liked in > their second year will coincide with what they think they want to do in > their fifth year. > > Alina. In the end that probably is the best way to choose. If ever asked "what should I do?" I'd say 'do what you like, and do what you are good at' (which may not be the same thing!). I guess the problem with this is sometimes, for certain careers, you might require something that you neither like or are good at, say potions for example (can't imagine why *that* should have come to mind!), maybe at Hogwarts they have a way of dealing with this .... remedial potions anyone? Regards Jo From brynnleet at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 22:39:54 2004 From: brynnleet at yahoo.com (brynnleet) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:39:54 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100961 Brenda wrote: > Yes, I meant that DD was NOT stupid for telling Harry about the > prophecy when he did, at the end of OoP, not anytime sooner. I > think it worked out for the best, VM still doesn't know about the > prophecy himself, and now Harry is aware of the connection and its > danger, his tricks (namely Sirius' death). And if HArry hadn't > learned Occlumency to some degree with Snape, he will actually put > some effort into it now. But all of this still would of been true at the beginning of OoP. If DD had told Harry at the beginning, then LV still wouldn't know and Harry would realize the importance of his own life, and perhaps stop risking it so much to save others. Harry would also realize *why* it was so important to learn Occulmency not just for himself but for the whole Order. If DD had told Harry that only he could kill LV and only through Occulmency could he protecting himself and stop LV from learning the plans of DD and the Order, maybe Harry would have put some effort into it *before* Sirius was killed. "brynnleet" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 10:01:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:01:39 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100962 Darrin wrote : > People that stand by and allow racist filth and genocidal rantings > to be spoken by someone wearing their colors and representing their > house, country, flag, whatever, need a better reason than "They hate > me anyway, so why should I care?" Del replies : They are KIDS, Darrin !!! You want me to keep in mind that Harry is a kid, so please do the same for the Slytherin kids. Darrin wrote : > The problem is, V-Mort's sins will be remembered for generations. > Say that the Nott kid is introduced. On JKR's website, she said the > younger Nott was to be an independent figure, not siding with Draco > right away. Maybe that kid has the stuff, but he has to overcome the > hatred and fear of people like Neville, who essentially lost his > parents to a Death Eater like Nott's dad. > > Whinging and moaning about how no one likes them anyway, so it > doesn't matter whether they disagree with the pureblood creed or V- > Mort doesn't seem like the answer. > > Is it fair to pay for the sins of the fathers? Not at all. (Wish > someone would tell Snape that) But expecting to be welcomed with > open arms is another matter. Del replies : That's what I've been trying to explain : there's a strong prejudice against the Slytherin kids. It doesn't matter what they truly are inside, they are systematically labeled as evil anyway. And I personally think that welcoming them with open arms IS the right thing to do. Tell them that those who came before them made wrong choices but that they, the new kids, are being trusted to make the right choices. The way things are being done now is exactly the opposite : they are basically told that everyone knows they will make wrong choices in the end. How constructive is that ? I, Del, wrote : > > And nowhere do we see the Slytherins being popular and > > upper-crust. Just because Draco is rich and famous doesn't mean > > his whole House is. You're extrapolating with very little basis. Darrin answered : > They are rich. They are old. In Fudge's world, being pureblood > counts for more. The very fact that an anti-Muggle persecution law > is needed indicates that the Slytherin way has dominated for some > time. Del replies : Who is "they" ? We know of some rich and old pureblood families, that's right : the Malfoys, the Blacks, presumably the Potters and the Longbottoms. We know of at least one old pureblood family who is poor : the Weasleys. And we know that of all those pureblood families, only the Malfoys and the Blacks agree with the Anti-Muggle mentality. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the old pureblood families are Anti-Muggles. Moreover, it's the whole wizarding society that has a problem with Muggles in my idea : they simply don't respect them. Any time the Muggles are mentioned in the books, it's always to make fun of them or to say how clueless they are. Darrin wrote : > Yes, let's look at Neville: > > Encouraged to fight back by his friends. Supported when he does. > Helped through lessons by Hermione. Encouraged in his Herbology. Has > lots of friends willing to help him when they find out about his > folks. > > One of my favorite lines of OoP was Neville being introduced to > Luna. > > "I'm nobody." > > Ginny: "No, you're not." Del replies : And why do you think Neville described himself as nobody ? Precisely because he thinks nobody cares about him. Only 2 people have ever truly taken care of Neville : Hermione and Ginny. Nobody else cares. You mention Neville's friends : who are they ? We know that Harry and Ron hang together, and so do Dean and Seamus, and Lavender and Parvati. But Neville ? Neville never hangs out with anyone. Neville is always an additional piece, he's always the odd one out. Oh, and you mention about the friends ready to help him when they find out about his parents. Well, I have only a few words for those so-called friends : took them long enough ! It was way before GoF came out that I was asking myself why Neville had been brought up by his Gran. But nobody in his own class seemed to care. Darrin wrote, about Draco : > Finally! The little punk does something useful. Let's give him 99 > years in Azkaban instead of 100. Del asks : What did he do that should land him in Azkaban ?? I, Del, said : > > You're not trying to understand what I'm telling you. I NEVER said > > that it isn't hard what Harry went through. In other words : HARRY > > WENT THROUGH HELL BECAUSE OF LV. All right ? Darrin answered : > Whew, that took a lot longer than it should have. Glad to see you're > coming around. In message 100800 I, Del, said : " First, we don't know that Harry has suffered more than any other character. He himself admits that Neville's fate is worse than his own in many respects. Of course Neville didn't have to face LV, but so what ? Facing LV isn't necessarily the worst thing that can happen to someone." Just in case you didn't notice, I wasn't dismissing Harry's trials, I was just saying that we can't say he's the character who's suffered most. He might be the one who's suffered the most *at the hands of LV*, but who can say that he's suffered more than anyone else all in all ? Nobody can be judge of that. So no, I'm not coming around. It's you who're finally listening to what I'm saying. Sorry I had to shout for you to hear... I, Del, said : > > We just don't know that other people didn't go through their own > > hell for other reasons. *That* was the original discussion : that > > Harry isn't necessarily the only one who's suffered badly. Darrin answered : > Yeah, that Eloise chick had to suffer from acne. > > Seriously, who else? Who else has grown up with the childhood Harry > has, faced the same troubles at school, been hated by as many > teachers (Snape, Quirrell, Moody/Crouch, and Umbridge), and been the > target of public ridicule, both in and out of Hogwarts. Del replies : I'm not saying that what Harry went through isn't horrible. But who gave you the right to judge that nobody else has suffered just as much for other reasons ? We don't know ANYTHING about what's going on in the other kids' lives. It took Harry 4 years to discover by accident the tragedy of Neville's life. So who can guess what might be going on in some other kid's life ? Just because a torture is silent and private doesn't mean it's less painful and destructive. Darrin wrote : > Who said he was a saint? He's a good kid, overall, but he's not a > saint. But you said yourself that you "hated" Harry as a reaction to > the "love" for Harry out here. Del replies : "Who said he was a saint ?" Well I'd say all those people who systematically refuse to see his faults. *Everyone* has faults in those books, that's one reason I love them so much. So it annoys me when some people try to dismiss Harry's faults just because he's the hero ans they love him. Those faults are precisely what make me care for him *when I read the books*, they are what make me relate to him : "Oh Harry, you idiot, why ever did you have to do that, look at the mess you got yourself into now, how are you gonna get out of it ?" And then I chew on my nails for the next 100 pages, and I cringe when things go wrong. But there's no way I can start by the end of my sentence, the caring one. I have to be allowed to feel the entire scope of my feelings towards Harry : annoyance, anger, irritation, etc... So when I come on the group, and people try to force me to see only Harry's good side, it turns Harry into some kind of inhuman being in my eyes, and I can't care about him anymore. And just in case you're wondering : I don't generally like Harry, but I can care about him. In real life, I don't care only about the people I like, thankfully ! Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 10:11:16 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:11:16 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100963 Kathi wrote: Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no idea what that might be. Ideas? I (vmonte) responded: "Little" Ginny, of course. vmonte again (posted this a few months ago): I believe that Ginny is going to be important. She had an important role in book 2. A role that did not necessarily have to go to her. L Malfoy could have easily slipped Riddle's diary in with Ron's books, or George and Fred's books. She was showcased because she learns something from her possession by Riddle that becomes important later. Or, she may have become stronger because of what happened to her. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. (Ron, George, and Fred, have specific roles they are needed for later. Rowling had to introduce Ginny because she needed a character for a specific job, separate from what she had planned for Ron, Fred, George. It is interesting that she chose a female character for this role...) There is something else that struck me as curious about Ginny in OOTP- - page 100, U.S. version of OOTP: "Yeah, size is no guarantee of power," said George. "Look at Ginny." "What do you mean?" said Harry. "You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat- Bogey Hexes, have you?" (What is a bat-bogey hex I wonder?) Also, page 116, OOTP: "There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut..." I think that Ginny has become more powerful because she survived Riddle/Voldemort's possession of her. (It does not matter that it was Harry who saved her from Voldemort but that she survived.) She may now have some of Voldemort's powers, just like Harry does, because she was touched in such a powerful way. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 10:26:26 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:26:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100964 bowlwoman wrote: I think there's going to be an attack at Privet Drive this summer. And Vernon will die. First, let me state some facts. I'll weave it all together after I list them. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. snip 1) Someone will learn magic at a late age 2) This will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive 3) We know that some of the professors have spouses snip 6) The Dursleys have spoiled Dudley rotton 7) A lot of child wizards first use their talents when they are scared and angry 8) Dumbledore has some hold over Petunia to guarantee that she will continue to offer Harry a home with her. vmonte responds: Good post! I've gone back and forth on whether JKR was talking about Dudley or Petunia. You've made very good arguments for Dudley, so I have nothing to add here. Below are some other thoughts from a previous post of mine. Dudley relives a lost memory from his childhood through the Dementor attack. I think that the Dementor that attacked Dudley made him remember something he saw as a baby. >From OOTP (Page 30, U.S. version): "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I heard....things. Inside m-my head..." Petunia then responds in a way that makes it seem that she is worried that her son may be losing his mind: "What sort of things did you hear, popkin?" breathed aunt Petunia, very white-faced with tears in her eyes. But maybe Petunia was worried that Dudley might have remembered something that happened in the past. Something he should not have seen. "But Dudley seemed in capable of saying. He shuddered again and shook his large blond head, and despite the sense of numb dread that had settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst moments of their life...What would spoiled, pampered, bullying Dudley have been forced to hear?" Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows him up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was searching for the Potter's) before he reached word from wormtail. He may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter with a dementor as a baby! (I don't think that Dudley's worst fear was getting a pigtail.) Dudley may realize the fear he caused to others while he was a bully and may give Harry important information from his vision. (Rowling has said that she feels sorry for Dudley because his parents actions towards him amounts to child abuse and that they have not prepared him for the real world.) Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death eaters because she takes them unawares. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 12 10:35:20 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:35:20 -0000 Subject: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > > > > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent > > who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the > > intention of betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. > > Fleur and Cho are unlikely to have the background or experience to > > play the part. It would need someone a bit more mature > > to flatter and beguile an impressionable growing lad. > > > > It's a bit of an oddity that the only non-pupil female who is > >described as in any way attractive is Madame Rosmerta, and she > >fulfills the sterotype of the traditional > > barmaid. All the rest appear to be 'motherly' or 'professional' > > sterotypes. > > > > Do witches become cosmetically challenged as they mature? I doubt > > it. There's definitely a gap there. I don't necessarily predict that it will > > be filled in the next book, but eventually it will be. > > > > Kneasy > > > Going back through old posts just before the release of OOTP and ran > across this. The thread ended before the book was published and as > far as i can tell, not revisited. > > We did get a few new female characters and more info on some we > already knew. > > Kneasy, or anyone else, did you find anyone to fill the temptress > role before the end of the story? > > Lets see, theres the new characters of Umbridge and Tonks. We got > lots of juicy stuff on Bellatrix. A few new insights into Narcissa > and Susan Bones. And maybe the most likely, (or not) Luna. > > Love to get your imput everyone. > > Jason Wow! Postal archaeology! I'd forgotten about this one; it was a filler, a bit of harmless speculation while we waited for OoP. But yes, it did surface again (sort of) after OoP in a thread that considered whether or not dear Bella in dominatix mode might not make Harry sweat a little. A naive inexperienced lad like Harry might be be-dazzled by an older woman with lots of ideas for brightening up cold winter evenings. Similar disgusting male fantasies were expressed when I switched targets and transformed Hermione into MADAM WHIPLASH (66428, 69878), but she never actually subjected Harry to her wiles. IIRC, there was another in the series but I've lost track of it (Ginny was going to join the establishment, I think). Hmm. I might resurrect Madam W; could be fun. Other possibles; well, Luna has caught the eye of some, including me. Not that she's particularly likely to be ESE, but she's so vague and full of batty enthusiasms that she could influence Harry into making a serious mistake even though her intentions are benign. Tonks is probably a non-starter. If anyone is a prime candidate for the Black Spot it's her. That clumsiness will be the death of her, you mark my words. All in all the field is distressingly thin. JKR might write a good story, but there's not much in there to exercise male fantasies - holding hands over a butterbeer is OK for SHIPpers but doesn't engage the enthusiasms of more jaded appetites. Pity. Maybe something will turn up in the next epic volume. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 10:48:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:48:59 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100967 Meri wrote : > In fact one of the qualities that always struck me about Harry was > his compassion for others. Del replies : Eeck, Compassionate!Harry again :-) !!! Sorry, but Harry never struck me as particularly compassionate. He is a bit, all right, like tons of people, but I don't find him exceptionally compassionate. Nope. Meri wrote : > When he first meets Dobby he asks him to sit (like, Dobby says, an > equal) and by the end of the book has not only made an effort to > know more about Dobby but also to help him, something most wizards > wouldn't have done. Del replies : Would you have done things differently ? I wouldn't. And Hermione neither : she's even set up an association to "help" the Elves. She might be wrong, but she has her heart in the right place. And let's not forget that when it comes to Elves, Harry can't be compared to other wizards : he didn't grow up learning to dismiss House-Elves. Meri wrote : > At the end of the ressurection scene in GoF, Harry grants > Ghost!Cedric's wish to return his body to his parents, something > which he does at great cost to himself. Del replies : Yep, *that* one really impressed me !! Meri wrote : > He never tells Ron or Hermione about Neville's parents after > learning about their fate Del replies : So what ? He was forbidden to, he had no right to do so. Meri wrote : > and at the end of OotP, as he is torn assunder with grief over > Sirius' death he feels *pity* for Luna because she is made fun of > and because people steal her books and things. He even offers to > help her look for them. Del replies : Yeah, I loved that scene ! Harry is growing up, discovering that other people can suffer even while he's suffering himself, and that helping them can help relief his own pain a little bit. He's growing up all right. Meri wrote : > And also to Harry being, to quote Del "one of those kids who can't > be bothered by anything that doesn't concern them immediately" Harry > gets involved plenty with things that don't concern him immideately, > like both Pensieves, the Sorcerer's Stone, helping Hagrid with baby > Norbert and Grawp, etc. Though I am sure that Dell would just > dismiss that as nosiness. Del replies : Er, you have to admit that the Pensieve episodes *were* nosiness, there's no denying that, is there ? The Sorcerer's stone was an intensely personal affair : Harry wanted to prevent Snape and LV from getting the Stone, because he hated them both. Helping Hagrid : he did it because Hagrid is his friend, so that was personal too. In both cases, he knew Hagrid was being dangerous and reckless, but he didn't turn him in because he's his friend. Meri wrote : > Anyway, one of the things that I love about JKR's books is that > there is no single saintly perfect character who has no bad > qualities. Every character has its good qualities and bad. Just > like, last time I checked, real people. That's what makes them so > compelling. Del replies : Absolutely !! And that's why I don't like Harry too much : because I don't like kids like him in real life. It's not a condemnation or whatever, it's just a statement of my personal preferences. After all, from what I know, I wouldn't have liked my husband too much if I'd met him when we were teenagers :-) Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 10:50:22 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:50:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040611084514.03aa3930@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100968 Now Phil chimes in: I love your theory, bowlwoman, but two things came to me when reading it. 1. There is a house available, number twelve, Grimmauld Place, which Petunia could possibly inherit, that is until Harry comes of age. vmonte responds: Good point! If anyone can make that house clean, Petunia can. Obssesive cleaning is a sign of compulsive behavior (in almost every book someone mentions how clean her house is). In OOTP Tonks says that the cleanliness is unnatural: Page 51 OOTP, U.S. version: She followed Harry back into the hall and up the stairs, looking around with much curiosity and interest. "Funny place," she said, "it's a bit too clean, d'you know what I mean? Bit unnatural." People with obsessive behaviors are often people who feel that they have no control over their lives (she cannot control Harry and the wizarding world, and she is bitter about it). From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 12 10:59:42 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:59:42 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > > Sherrie here: > > Hmmm....are you a STAR TREK fan, by chance? Or a fan of old science fiction? > This sort of thing is the premise of Robert Bloch's "Yours Truly, Jack the > Ripper" - adapted to the TREK universe as the second-season episode "Wolf in > the Fold". I'm not sure I can see JKR going that way, frankly... > Can't stand Star Trek but I am a fan of *real* SF. And also, which is probably where the influence came from, H.P.Lovecraft, that gibbering, adjectivally overloaded begetter of tales that warn what can happen to those that insist on descending into secret underground chambers where practioners of the Dark Arts plied their awful trade. With luck, the Hogwarts squid will turn out to be an aspect of the Cthulu cult, which means that there will probably be only one survivor to spell out the awful warning of what happens when the foolish meddle with foul abominations. Hogwarts, a place of non-Euclidean geometries...... Kneasy From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 11:14:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:14:38 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100970 vmonte here: I started reading OOTP recently and came across the scene in 12 GP where Molly tells Sirius that Harry is not James no matter how much he looks like him. It made me start thinking about all the other times in the series that wizards/witches have commented on this. I began looking through all the books and found that there are multiple times where Harry is told that he looks like his father. (In OOTP alone it is mentioned multiple times.) Why would JKR continuously tell us this? We already know that Harry looks like James, so why beat us over the head with it? Has JKR added this bit of info into every book so that we don't forget? Throughout the whole series JKR has tricked us with mistaken identity. Harry sees himself in PoA but he thinks it's his father. We also have fake Moody, Ron and Harry as Crab and Goyle, etc. How would you use this bit of info regarding Harry and James? I think it can only mean that someone will confuse Harry with James. But how is this possible since James is dead? I think it can only mean that Harry has to time-travel to the past. vivian From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Jun 12 11:22:18 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:22:18 -0000 Subject: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > > Darrin, you might find it interesting to read this post: > > http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000036.html > > originally post number 34802 on HPFGU. > (snip) > David, amused by the sight of 11,000 'grownups' searching for an > adult... Carolyn: Thanks for pulling this one out of the archives; really excellent analysis. Is there anything legal (or illegal) that can be offered to Elkins to rejoin these discussions ? From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 11:27:21 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:27:21 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100972 I vmonte wrote: ...JKR has tricked us with mistaken identity. Harry sees himself in PoA but he thinks it's his father. We also have fake Moody, Ron and Harry as Crab and Goyle, etc. How would you use this bit of info regarding Harry and James? I think it can only mean that someone will confuse Harry with James. But how is this possible since James is dead? I think it can only mean that Harry has to time-travel to the past. vmonte responding to my own post: Regarding clues to book six from PoA movie: In the PoA movie Lupin tells Harry that he recognized him because of his mother's eyes. I'm thinking that someone from the past will figure out who he is because of his mother's eyes. vivian From ekrbdg at msn.com Sat Jun 12 11:34:11 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:34:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Any Bets on WHO will do Late Magic? (Was Re: Late Magic ?) References: Message-ID: <00a001c45071$82e838c0$5087f343@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 100973 > Interview Quote: > > > < students > > in > > > the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather > > > than as children? > > > > > > JKR: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows > > > itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character > who > > > does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in > > > life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. >> > > > > HedwigsTalons: > > My bet is on Petunia - because she has to save Dudley's life. > > > Jen: I was hoping it would be Dudley, so we'd get a description of > Vernon's face when Dudders does magic for the first time!! But, > since JKR said "quite late in life", my guess is Petunia or Mrs. > Figg. *Kimberly's comment* I'd be willing to bet that it's either Dudley or Petunia, more likely Petunia for the reason you've said. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/10/2004 From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 12 11:40:12 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:40:12 -0000 Subject: Ferreting around Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100974 Hermione's patronus is an Otter which comes from the same family as Weasels and Ferrets. OK Weasels fuel the H/R shippers but what of Ferrets? Who do we know who is fairly intimate with Ferrets? Would that be Malfoy perchance? Did Crouch!Moody choose the Ferret transfiguration or did he simply unlock the inner Ferret!Malfoy. Could this fulfil Sleazy!Kneazy's desires, a m?nage a trois with extra musk? Regards Jo Whose spell checker thinks Hermione should be hormones. From brynnleet at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 22:57:39 2004 From: brynnleet at yahoo.com (brynnleet) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:57:39 -0000 Subject: Explosion at GH: but still: Snape once again puts 2 & 2 together...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100975 Susan wrote: > I admit to being very curious about the fact that there was an > explosion and the house was destroyed. Now, even though we > don't know anything about what happened at the Longbottoms, I > don't recall JKR saying anywhere that AKs (or Imperios) caused > explosions, houses to collapse, etc. Just how did the house get > destroyed? > > I am really curious to know who, exactly, was there at GH. I know > this has been brought up before, but I don't recall any satisfying > conclusions. There has been a lot of speculation about who else was at GH recently, but what I don't understand in no one could find GH. It was under a Secret-Keeper spell, so only someone PP had personally told could of been there. PP wouldn't of told any of the "good" guy, which seems to mean none of them could of been there, at least while the Potter's were alive (does the spell end when they die?). And the fact that the DE blamed PP for LV downfall at GH makes me think he didn't tell any of them about the location. If he had, they all would of known the main reason LV recruited PP was to find the Potters, so why would they blame PP for doing what LV wanted? I suppose it's possible he told some DE the secret, but it seems impossible to Moody or Lupin or teenage!Harry to be at GH before the Potter's were killed. "brynnleet" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 12 12:05:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:05:36 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > Oh. My. God. Did I read this right? Kneasy, did you say that Snape > should have admitted it wasn't going to work??? I didn't think you > ever saw fit to criticize Snape in any manner when it came to his > teaching. Did someone convince you, or have you always believed this > and I just didn't realize? > > Hmmm. Not much point to this post, is there? Sorry for that. Just > glad to be back. "Happy HPfGU Anniversary," Kneasy. > Oh yes, he should have admitted it. A wonderful scene has been denied us. Can't you just see it? Snape drags Harry into DDs office and goes into full foaming at the mouth rant mode: "Headmaster, I demand that this idle, obnoxious little sneak should be expelled immediately! Not only...." etc. etc. DD would paper over the cracks of course and Snape would have even more reason to be bloody-minded and vicious. Harry would invent justifications for himself yet again and DD would look even older and more tired. Sirius would blow his top and probably come down with stress induced mange or canine distemper. Lupin would look worried. Splendid stuff. Can't help but think JKR missed a trick here. Thank you; yes, it's been a full year since Kneasy's subversive program of alternative interpretations and studied bad taste sneaked onto the site. More to come, hopefully. Kneasy From melaniertay at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 00:00:08 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:00:08 -0000 Subject: Who it's about was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: <10543691.1654EBA7.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100977 "Mel": > > I don't understand why someone would like the books if they > > hate Harry. They're all about him. Oryomai: > Well, that's just it, isn't it? It's *not* all about Harry. It's > about what he's going through. All the characters in the story > contribute to the plot. > > I'm slightly offended by the fact that you call disliking Harry > "odd". Why is that odd? Nobody says that it's odd to like Harry, > so why should it be odd to dislike him? Liking/disliking one > character doesn't affect how we like the books. Well, I don't think it's odd people dislike, Harry and I never said that. I said it was odd that people would continue to like the books to the point of doing "fan things" like joining web groups if they didn't like Harry. The books are about Harry. They are his life story. We hear no one else's point of view. We know of no conversations between characters that Harry was not present for. We hear no point of view other than his. I suppose that would irritate me if I found Harry annoying and I wouldn't read them anymore, but to each his own. I just thought it was odd initially. "Mel" From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 12:17:39 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:17:39 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100978 Jo wrote: I guess the problem with this is sometimes, for certain careers, you might require something that you neither like or are good at, say potions for example (can't imagine why *that* should have come to mind!), maybe at Hogwarts they have a way of dealing with this .... remedial potions anyone? vmonte responds: My wish would be that Neville and Harry get top marks in their potions exams (the highest in the class) --What a kick that would be! Without Snape around they may actually do a good job! I could see Hermione and Ron's faces now! vivian From ABadgerFan2 at msn.com Sat Jun 12 01:13:19 2004 From: ABadgerFan2 at msn.com (abadgerfan2) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:13:19 -0000 Subject: Candidates for learning late in life? (Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100979 Gina: > > If JKR said someone would learn magic at a late age I > > would say it would be Hagrid! Larry: > Hagrid already knows magic. He gave Dudley a pigs tail. Possible candidates for late-learners include Mrs. Figg and Mr. Filch, the squibs. I'd put my money on Arabella, on the premise that Harry gravitates towards spending more time w/ her this summer, now that he knows of her connection to the magical world. When is book six due to be published, anyway? Thanks! Jim ...... From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 12 02:55:03 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:55:03 -0400 Subject: Grown Harry at GH? References: <1086992929.84994.51239.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004b01c45028$a9312260$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 100980 I re-read the section in PoA where Harry first hears his dad's voice. (PoA p.240, US) ...then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking-- "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off--" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter--" Harry tells Lupin this and his reply - "You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. Now, when I read this I can see this scene in my head. I know in one of the movies we saw Lily in front of baby Harry in the crib and that may be affecting this thought, but I am seeing Lily, James and baby Harry in their home. Somehow James gets a warning that LV is coming - maybe by a floo message or he hears something outside. He tells her to go, he's here, then he stays in the living room. The door bursts open, there is LV, laughing. James tries a stunning spell or two then LV does the AV curse and there is a flash of green light. LV follows Lily into another room where she is trying to protect Harry. We know he's after Harry because he tells her to stand aside and she won't, she even begs LV to take her and kill her instead (PoA, p 179, US). LV does the AV curse on her as well and there is another burst of green light, the curse kills Lily but backfires, leaving baby Harry marked with his scar and LV as vapor. Now, right after Lupin asks if Harry has heard James Harry asks if they knew each other in school. Lupin tells them he did but then wants to stop the lesson for that night. What bothered Lupin about Harry asking that question? Am I reading too much into it? Now after reading the theory of Grown Harry being there I'm not sure if that male voice was really James as I envisioned. I don't know that it was Grown Harry, I don't know that I believe that. But since Lupin said "You heard James?" in a strange voice I am wondering if it could have been someone else or was Lupin just bothered that Harry, his best friend's son, was hearing the voices of his parents the night they were killed? We do know that Harry's parents are dead - that is a fact based on GoF, but maybe in book 6 we'll find out if it was James that Harry heard. Christina in GA From lyonsden at value.net Sat Jun 12 03:12:53 2004 From: lyonsden at value.net (noylsdad) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 03:12:53 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <8c.d30a97e.2dfbc079@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100981 Batchevra: > when taking out your memories by the wand and putting it into > the Pensieve? How much taunting does Harry have to take? Per canon, Snape tried twice to get Harry into the Pensieve to see that memory, but the dam_ fool kid followed him out the door the first time... I mean, come on...if Snape didn't want Harry to see that memory, he would have removed the memory before Harry arrived and hidden the pensieve. Even more likely, he would simply have left that memory in pensieve at the beginning and be done with it. "noylsdad" From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Sat Jun 12 03:45:20 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:45:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <023201c45023$7920b2c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <001101c4502f$af221d30$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 100982 I found this slightly irregular as well. The troubling part is that not only do the kids not focus on their choices for OWL classes nor receive info but also the parents do not seem to be involved (not a big deal for Harry but for the others.). This could just be an omission of the books, which focus on Harry: who would not receive guidance from the Dursleys anyway. Alternatively, JKR is perhaps not perfect and could have possibly skipped this detail. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 12 03:50:19 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (Leeann McCullough) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:50:19 -0400 Subject: Magical Dudley? (Re: Harry's Summer-6th book) References: <1087006683.5329.83733.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c45030$73189660$8ae9ee04@CPQ16151965929> No: HPFGUIDX 100983 I don't think there is any reason to believe that Dudley has any magial talent. First of all, as the sorting hat tells us, Hufflepuff takes the rest. Leading us to believe that Hufflepuff students are not the most talented of the lot. Secondly, I think Harry has anoyed Dudley enough over the years that if he did have any talent, he would have shown his true colors by now. Remember the snake at the zoo, Harry's hair growing back over night, Aunt Marge blowing up. Strong emotions! Dudders hasn't shown anything like that. Leeann From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Sat Jun 12 06:56:07 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 06:56:07 -0000 Subject: Harry and an academic career Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100984 There has been a lot of speculation on this list and others that Harry will end up being the Hogwarts DADA professor. I also used to believe this was a very likely scenario. But in her last public forum, JKR was asked whether Harry would end up being Headmaster, and she replied (this is a paraphrase) "I can't see Harry in an academic career, he's so used to action." This seems to imply that he WON'T be a DADA professor, if he survives the seventh book, but will end up as an auror, a professional Quidditch player, or some other "active" profession. Can anybody see any hope, here? I would very much like to think that Harry will end up as the DADA teacher. Dzeytoun From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 12:30:41 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:30:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: <000901c44fd6$a16d7f80$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100985 | From: Littlekat10 [mailto:littlekat10 at comcast.net] | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 13:08 PM | I don't recall Harry naming Hedwig in either the first or second book. I | know that Harry calls her Hedwig but how on earth did she get that name in | the first place? Could Hagrid have named her when he purchased her for | Harry? | And how did Pigwidgeon get his name/ Curious minds want to know. Harry named his owl because of something he read in one of his new books. Quoting from Chapter 6: Harry kept to his room, with his new owl for company. He had decided to call her Hedwig, a name he had found in __A History of _Magic. Ron's owl was named by Gini, GOF, Chapter 5: "Er--why are you calling that owl Pig?" Harry asked Ron. "Because he's being stupid," said Ginny. "Its proper name is Pigwidgeon." "Yeah, and that's not a stupid name at all," said Ron sarcastically. "Ginny named him," he explained to Harry. "She reckons it's sweet. And I tried to change it, but it was too late, he won't answer to anything else. So now he's Pig. ..." Hope that helps. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From stefaniealexisread at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 07:22:24 2004 From: stefaniealexisread at yahoo.com (stefaniealexisread) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:22:24 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100986 If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I think that's all I have to say. "stefaniealexisread" From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 12 12:38:40 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:38:40 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <001101c4502f$af221d30$6400a8c0@Desktop> References: <023201c45023$7920b2c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <40CB85F0.12317.163A470@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100987 On 11 Jun 2004 at 20:45, Trevor wrote: > I found this slightly irregular as well. The troubling part is that not > only do the kids not focus on their choices for OWL classes nor receive info > but also the parents do not seem to be involved (not a big deal for Harry > but for the others.). This could just be an omission of the books, which > focus on Harry: who would not receive guidance from the Dursleys anyway. > Alternatively, JKR is perhaps not perfect and could have possibly skipped > this detail. I'd assume parents are involved - and not just parents: "Neville Longbottom had been sent letters from all the witches and wizards in his family, all giving him different advice on what to choose. Confused and worried, he sat reading the subject lists with his tongue poking out, asking people whether they thought Arithmancy sounded more difficult than the study of Ancient Runes. Dean Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles, ended up closing his eyes and jabbing his wand at the list, then picking the subjects it landed on. Hermione took nobody's advice but signed up for everything. Harry smiled grimly to himself at the thought of what Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia would say if he tried to discuss his career in wizardry with them. Not that he didn't get any guidance: Percy Weasley was eager to share his experience." Neville is getting advice from all of his family - Dean, Muggle born, doesn't seem to get any - presumably because his family aren't qualified. Hermione might have discussed it with her parents (although I doubt it given her attitude in OotP) but if she did, it didn't really make much different - and the statement about Harry suggests to me that they were encouraged or expected to discuss it with their parents or guardians - it is just pointless in his case. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 12 12:48:04 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:48:04 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40CB8824.31024.16C3FC6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 100989 On 12 Jun 2004 at 7:22, stefaniealexisread wrote: > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I > think that's all I have to say. There's a few possible reasons. (1) My personal favourite is the idea that Prefects are chosen by the Housemaster or mistress (though the Headmaster has some say as well), based on who is the best exemplar of the prime characteristics of their house. (Under this theory, the Head Boy and Head Girl are those who best exemplify the characteristics of the school - all Houses combined. I like this idea, personally, because I can see it leading to Harry and Hermione as Head Boy and Head Girl (Hermione has revealed she could have gone to Ravenclaw - which means she is suitable for two Houses - and Harry could have gone to Slytherin - giving him two as well. (Note - the time the Sorting Hat took to decide on Neville suggests he is in a similar boat - a possible Hufflepuff, perhaps. Malfoy, on the other hand is an instant Slytherin). (2) Based on the way prefects are sometimes appointed in real schools, it's possible that it was hoped given Draco some responsibility would help him to develop into something better than he is - I mention it as a possibility only - because frankly, I can't see this in his case. (3) Malfoy may simply be the best of a bunch of bad choices - the only guy available. If there are only five Slytherin fifth year boys - and there's some reason to suppose that - then Draco might well be the best choice, considering we know two of the other four are Crabbe and Goyle. (4) It may have been expedient for Snape to keep Lucius Malfoy on side by appointing his son. Just some possibilities. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 12 13:02:37 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:02:37 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte here: > snip > > Why would JKR continuously tell us this? We already know that Harry > looks like James, so why beat us over the head with it? Has JKR > added this bit of info into every book so that we don't forget? > snip > vivian She repeatedly tells us he looks like his father and, by omission, that he doesn't look like his mother (except the eyes of course!). Now 'someone' who hated James but liked Lily would find their offspring somewhat disconcerting, ambivalence would be the most likely reaction. Unless, of course, only the hated parent was discerned. In this case the observer would be doubly incensed, firstly by the reincarnation of the hated James and secondly by the constant reminder that Lily is no more. It is possibly to speculate that the 'someone' would be especially unsympathetic to Harry in these circumstances. Who could that be? (stops, thinks, sucks on lollipop reflectively) Nah, no idea. Regards Jo From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 12 13:04:11 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:04:11 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <40CB85F0.12317.163A470@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > I'd assume parents are involved - and not just parents: > > "Neville Longbottom had been sent letters from all the witches and wizards in his family, all giving him different advice on what to choose. Confused and worried, he sat reading the subject lists with his tongue poking out, asking people whether they thought Arithmancy sounded more difficult than the study of Ancient Runes. "<< It's interesting that Ron makes the same choices as Neville: Divination and CoMC. I speculate that Neville ultimately decided he'd have to bow to Gran's wishes--and that she's ambitious for him to follow in his parents' footsteps and become an Auror. Pippin From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 12 13:26:13 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:26:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's Fault! (was Re:Who's the adult) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100992 Jo Ann is feeling guilty about starting the Kevin Bacon game. Can you tell me what that is, as I feel I should share responsibility for starting Jo Ann off in the first place, if it's a bad thing to have done. Sylvia (who thinks Snape may be a bastard but he's OUR bastard) From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 13:30:56 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:30:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: <231EE461-BBD5-11D8-8D5F-00039399B634@nmagazine.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100993 Diane writes: | | Hedwig was named by Harry in the first book. She is named after a witch | that was know to be a protector of the oppressed. [Lee]: Interesting...what's the ref on this? I didn't see that in the book, only that Hedwig was from the History of Magic book. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 13:47:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:47:13 -0000 Subject: Long lived - Lily's spell will remove Tom Riddle from HP's head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100994 Kneasy wrote: ...Voldy is Tom plus something else IMO, something that was in the Chamber. Something that had been hanging around, tapping it's foot, waiting for somebody like Tom to turn up and be possessed and do it's bidding. Something that in form is very like the vapour of the Vapour! Mort formed after Godrics Hollow and Crumble!Quirrell. It wasn't a spell that created the vaprous entity - that was it's natural form; take away the body it's possessing and that's what's left. It'll hang around, weakened until it finds another victim. And it's damn near immortal; as DD says "Not being truly alive he cannot be killed" (PS chap 17) And unrepentantly evil to boot. vmonte responds: I like your theory Kneasy, and there has to be some reason why DD goes after Grindewald and then (happens to) immediately turn up at Hogwarts during Tom Riddle's time. Something has to connect these two events! I'm guessing that JKR hasn't mentioned Grindewald because knowing what he was about may give something else away. JKR has mentioned (I think someone pointed this out previously) in one of her talks (Albert Hall?) that she wanted to show in the Potter series how difficult fighting evil was because even when defeated someone is always ready to take over in it's place. This seems to go along with your theory. The other theory that comes to mind is the one that explains that Vapormort is now soulless because during the GH attack Voldemort's essence was ripped in half. It's "The Tom Riddle's soul is now living in Harry theory." This also seems to make sense as to why Harry remembers Tom Riddle as a childhood friend. If we add my theory that Harry will go back in time it may be because TR's soul must be removed from Harry. And perhaps only Lily's spell can rectify this. (Im reminded of the steam that shoots out of Harry's head in the PoA movie.) Also many people believe that Grindewald represents a kind of Hitler figure since he was defeated in 1945. Hitler was pure evil, a murderer of countless non-magical folk/muggles. I don't know why I'm reminded of Arthur Weasley who adores muggles. Arthur has also brought up his children to be very respectful of non-magical folk. If the children learn about Grindewald in history class next year and Ron makes a comment about what he'd have done to Grindewald if was alive during that time, then this could go along with my feeling that Ron=DD. vivian From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sat Jun 12 14:05:28 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:05:28 -0400 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040612100203.0339a830@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 100995 >vmonte wrote: > >...JKR has tricked us with mistaken identity. Harry sees himself in >PoA but he thinks it's his father. We also have fake Moody, Ron and >Harry as Crab and Goyle, etc. > >How would you use this bit of info regarding Harry and James? I >think it can only mean that someone will confuse Harry with James. >But how is this possible since James is dead? > >I think it can only mean that Harry has to time-travel to the past. > >Now Phil throws in a comment: How about Harry not James saving Snape from the prank? And like magical transportation, there may be more than one way to time travel. Smiles opening up another can of worms. Phil >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >ADVERTISEMENT > > >---------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ > > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:08:51 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:08:51 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Meri wrote : > > In fact one of the qualities that always struck me about Harry was > > his compassion for others. > > Del replies : > Eeck, Compassionate!Harry again :-) !!! Sorry, but Harry never struck > me as particularly compassionate. He is a bit, all right, like tons of > people, but I don't find him exceptionally compassionate. Nope. > Meri back again to clear up her original post: Harry, for someone who was raised the way he was, *is* exceptionally compassionate. He spent ten years in an abusive household, and that he came out of that situation with the ability to feel anything at all towards others that isn't contempt is really impressive to me. > Meri wrote : > > When he first meets Dobby he asks him to sit (like, Dobby says, an > > equal) and by the end of the book has not only made an effort to > > know more about Dobby but also to help him, something most wizards > > wouldn't have done. > > Del replies : > Would you have done things differently ? I wouldn't. And Hermione > neither : she's even set up an association to "help" the Elves. She > might be wrong, but she has her heart in the right place. > And let's not forget that when it comes to Elves, Harry can't be > compared to other wizards : he didn't grow up learning to dismiss > House-Elves. Meri: Well, I don't know whatI would have done if a house elf showed up in my bedroom and proceeded to make noise while the people downstairs were pretending that I didn't exsist. I might have just chucked Dobby out of the window and be done with it, especially if I was in fear of my life or my future at Hogwarts. And yes there is Hermione, but one other example is not "most wizards", and Hermione's actions towards house elves are less from compassion and more from righteous indignation. If she did feel compassion towards them she would have just let Winky alone in GoF. > Meri wrote : > > At the end of the ressurection scene in GoF, Harry grants > > Ghost!Cedric's wish to return his body to his parents, something > > which he does at great cost to himself. > > Del replies : > Yep, *that* one really impressed me !! Meri: Sarcasm? I can't tell. But it did really impress me. Harry was being chased and shot at by thirty DEs and LV himself, and because of the weight of Cedric's body he could barely reach for the cup. If he hadn't come up with Accio in time we'd be reading a different book 5. If I were in that situation, I probably would have dropped Cedric like a hot potato and booked it for all *my* life, but Harry didn't, even though no one would have faulted him for it if he had. > Meri wrote : > > He never tells Ron or Hermione about Neville's parents after > > learning about their fate > > Del replies : > So what ? He was forbidden to, he had no right to do so. Meri: There are lots of things Harry is forbidden to do, and that usually doesn't stop him from gettin Ron and Hermione involved. > Meri wrote : > > and at the end of OotP, as he is torn assunder with grief over > > Sirius' death he feels *pity* for Luna because she is made fun of > > and because people steal her books and things. He even offers to > > help her look for them. > > Del replies : > Yeah, I loved that scene ! Harry is growing up, discovering that other > people can suffer even while he's suffering himself, and that helping > them can help relief his own pain a little bit. He's growing up all right. Meri: Once again, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but the fact is that Harry had never felt worse at that point, and while wallowing in self loathing and greif he managed to feel for another person. I don't know, that's pretty compassionate to me. > Meri wrote : > > And also to Harry being, to quote Del "one of those kids who can't > > be bothered by anything that doesn't concern them immediately" Harry > > gets involved plenty with things that don't concern him immideately, > > like both Pensieves, the Sorcerer's Stone, helping Hagrid with baby > > Norbert and Grawp, etc. Though I am sure that Dell would just > > dismiss that as nosiness. > > Del replies : > Er, you have to admit that the Pensieve episodes *were* nosiness, > there's no denying that, is there ? > The Sorcerer's stone was an intensely personal affair : Harry wanted > to prevent Snape and LV from getting the Stone, because he hated them > both. > Helping Hagrid : he did it because Hagrid is his friend, so that was > personal too. In both cases, he knew Hagrid was being dangerous and > reckless, but he didn't turn him in because he's his friend. Meri: I would actually call, at least the first pensieve scenes, curiosity, and I have a feeling that DD might have left out the pensieve so Harry would look. (But that's another post.) I still don't know Snape's motivations about his pensieve memories, but he must have been told by DD that Harry knew what a pensieve was and would surely look in it if he had the chance and Snape left it out anyway. That doesn't excuse Harry, but what would you have done? SS wasn't a personal affair at all, until Harry made it one, and I would argue that he only made it one out of pure curiosity, before even LV was suspected. And yes Hagrid is his friend, but Grawp and Norbert weren't really Harry's business, were they? And he helped out. > Meri wrote : > > Anyway, one of the things that I love about JKR's books is that > > there is no single saintly perfect character who has no bad > > qualities. Every character has its good qualities and bad. Just > > like, last time I checked, real people. That's what makes them so > > compelling. > > Del replies : > Absolutely !! > And that's why I don't like Harry too much : because I don't like kids > like him in real life. It's not a condemnation or whatever, it's just > a statement of my personal preferences. After all, from what I know, I > wouldn't have liked my husband too much if I'd met him when we were > teenagers :-) Meri: I am still unclear what you mean by "kids like him". Harry is pretty normal a kid. Do you mean average kids? Anyway, Harry is exactly the kind of kid I wish there were more of: fundamentally decent, fun, interesting, and totally normal. Well, sort of normal if you take away the targeted by LV thing. Meri - Harry lover till the end. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:11:23 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:11:23 -0000 Subject: Harry and an academic career In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > There has been a lot of speculation on this list and others that > Harry will end up being the Hogwarts DADA professor. I also used to > believe this was a very likely scenario. But in her last public > forum, JKR was asked whether Harry would end up being Headmaster, and > she replied (this is a paraphrase) "I can't see Harry in an academic > career, he's so used to action." This seems to imply that he WON'T > be a DADA professor, if he survives the seventh book, but will end up > as an auror, a professional Quidditch player, or some other "active" > profession. > > Can anybody see any hope, here? I would very much like to think that > Harry will end up as the DADA teacher. > > Dzeytoun Well, I really don't mean to burst your bubble, but this is all assuming Harry survives book 7. But let's not open up that discussion again. Meri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:15:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:15:01 -0000 Subject: Cheering on Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > I'm not saying that what Harry went through isn't horrible. But who > gave you the right to judge that nobody else has suffered just as much > for other reasons ? We don't know ANYTHING about what's going on in > the other kids' lives. It took Harry 4 years to discover by accident > the tragedy of Neville's life. So who can guess what might be going on > in some other kid's life ? Just because a torture is silent and > private doesn't mean it's less painful and destructive. > Alla: Hi, Del! I think this is the biggest difference of how you and me read those books. Hey, more interesting to read diferent points of view. You asked Darrin who give the right to judge "who suffered the most". Well, to me - Rowling gave me that right. I absolutely CANNOT care about hypothetical sufferings of hypothetical characters. Why should I imagine that some unknown student in Hogwarts suffered more than Harry, if Rowling did not tell us about it and probably never will. I care about the characters, who are in the book, not those nameless and faceless representatives of other houses. You care more about the character, whom your imagination gave you. Well, more power to you. I have absolutely no interest to imagine another charcters, when Rowling already gave me so many to care about. To me, Harry's sufferings are the worst. Yes, Neville also suffers, but in the books I cannot see anybody who comes even close. As I said many times - that is the main problem with Slytherin House. Sure, I hope that there are some good kids there and I also hope that Rowling will eventually show us one, but why should I care about them, if I DON'T SEE them in the book. I care about fleshed out characters and the representatives of Slytherin House, which we know (as I said earlier I am not sure about Snape) do come close to being "evil personified" to me. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 12 14:21:26 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:21:26 -0000 Subject: What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 100999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > > I understand there is a distinction between a subversive theory > (such as ESE!Lupin) and disliking a generally well-loved character such as Harry without hanging any particular theory on that dislike. However, I think the two phenomena are related. Often dislike (or like of a generally disliked character) is based > Pippin: David, my dear, you can't leave us hanging. Based on what? Or was that a misspelling of biased? Oh dear, now I'm reading *posts* subversively. Which brings me to my main point. David gives me far too much credit. I did not invent the ambiguities surrounding the character of Remus Lupin. JKR did that. All I did was catalogue them -- and suggest a possible explanation. It seems to me that in Lupin's case the subversive reading is to deny that the ambiguities exist or to claim that they are accidental. The desire to see any group of characters as simply good or simply evil is thwarted by the books themselves, it seems to me. There is no litmus test for Voldemortism, except Voldemortism itself. Yes, it was dreadful that the Slytherins let Draco shun Hermione, and that they were willing to accept help from someone whom they knew might be allied with Voldemort just to get new brooms for the Quidditch team--but then JKR showed that the Gryffindors were willing to let Harry and Ron do the same thing for the sake of a Firebolt. Heaven knows what they would have done for seven! It may be a subversive reading not to assume that Slytherin prejudice is inherently more culpable because it is racist. But then again JKR was careful to choose qualities for the other Houses that have also been associated with campaigns of extermination against the Other. The Inquisition was carried out in the name of chivalry, the Nazis tried to exterminate the mentally inferior even before they went after the Jews, and the original Reign of Terror was conducted in the name of liberty, equality and brotherhood. Have we been shown members of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff who might respond to a gospel of hate? We have. As for the Chamber of Secrets, the Room of Requirement is just as scary. Wonder what would happen if you went in there and asked for a library of Dark Arts manuals and a monster that would obey your commands? Pippin From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:27:24 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:27:24 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father. In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040612100203.0339a830@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101000 Now Phil throws in a comment: How about Harry not James saving Snape from the prank? And like magical transportation, there may be more than one way to time travel. Smiles opening up another can of worms. Phil vmonte: Phil - WOW! Fabulous! I've also been thinking that Ron must have been affected by the brain at the MoM. How will it change Ron? Who's brain is it (a founder, one of Harry's parents, a time-traveler?) Will he now have new and pertinent memories? Will this mind-meld cause Ron to become a true- seer? Or, is was this brain the mind of a time-traveler? -- Someone who was able to travel without need of a turner? Vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:27:03 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:27:03 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > Meri back again to clear up her original post: Harry, for someone > who was raised the way he was, *is* exceptionally compassionate. He > spent ten years in an abusive household, and that he came out of > that situation with the ability to feel anything at all towards > others that isn't contempt is really impressive to me. Alla: Yep, always wondered why Harry did not blew up at everybody in the first book as he did in OoP. > Meri: Well, I don't know whatI would have done if a house elf showed > up in my bedroom and proceeded to make noise while the people > downstairs were pretending that I didn't exsist. I might have just > chucked Dobby out of the window and be done with it, especially if I > was in fear of my life or my future at Hogwarts. And yes there is > Hermione, but one other example is not "most wizards", and > Hermione's actions towards house elves are less from compassion and > more from righteous indignation. If she did feel compassion towards > them she would have just let Winky alone in GoF. > Alla: Exactly, it seems to me that Del's position (Sorry, if I misinterpreted it, Dell) is that the deed is only compassionate if nobody else whould have done it. > > Meri wrote previously: > > > At the end of the ressurection scene in GoF, Harry grants > > > Ghost!Cedric's wish to return his body to his parents, something > > > which he does at great cost to himself. > > > > Del previously: > > Yep, *that* one really impressed me !! > > Meri: Sarcasm? I can't tell. But it did really impress me. Harry was > being chased and shot at by thirty DEs and LV himself, and because > of the weight of Cedric's body he could barely reach for the cup. If > he hadn't come up with Accio in time we'd be reading a different > book 5. If I were in that situation, I probably would have dropped > Cedric like a hot potato and booked it for all *my* life, but Harry > didn't, even though no one would have faulted him for it if he had. > Alla: I think Del will probably dismiss it to "saving people thing" :o) As I said many times, if I were in danger, I would really, really want that the person who passes by had this "saving people thing" > > Meri wrote : > > > He never tells Ron or Hermione about Neville's parents after > > > learning about their fate > > > > Del previously: > > So what ? He was forbidden to, he had no right to do so. > > Meri: There are lots of things Harry is forbidden to do, and that > usually doesn't stop him from gettin Ron and Hermione involved. Alla: Dell, I see Harry gets no points with you again. Oh, well :o) > Meri: I am still unclear what you mean by "kids like him". Harry is > pretty normal a kid. Do you mean average kids? Anyway, Harry is > exactly the kind of kid I wish there were more of: fundamentally > decent, fun, interesting, and totally normal. Well, sort of normal > if you take away the targeted by LV thing. > Meri - Harry lover till the end. Alla: I know one thing, I would definitely want a child like Harry. :o) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 14:31:20 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:31:20 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101002 > > Only 2 things truly set Harry apart from the Slytherins : > > 1. He doesn't believe in the Pureblood absurdity. > > > Alla: > That is the cornerstone of the Slytherin ideology so far, as far as > we know. So, no, Harry is not a true Slytherin. Mandy here: Pureblood purity is the cornerstone of Salazar Slytherin's ideology, yes, but not of Slytherin House, not any more. If Slytherin house, as it stands now in the 20th century, was only composed of pureblooded children, I would agree with you, but it simply can't be. The house would only have one or two kids per year. Slytherin House, which started out as a haven for purebloods only has had to become less selective over the centuries or it would simply cease to exist just at the WW has had to change and embrace muggle born wizards/witches. So where there are members of Slytherin House who cling to the original ideology of Slytherin himself, like Draco Malfoy, there are going to be others, including half bloods and muggleborns, in the house who disregard it. And I believe Draco to be in the minority. Of course without the missing 'good' Slytherin or as I like to think, a more balanced, 3 dimentional Slytherin we can not hope know any more about the House we love to hate. It will remain an enigma. Harry is not a true Slytherin, no, but he's not a true Gryffindor either. He is brave but selfish, cunning but considerate, ambitious but willing to help others, brakes rules but only at time he feels it necessary. No one can deny Harry has the qualities of both houses. The only reason Harry is not in Slytherin is because he asked not to be, but Slytherin shares his soul with Gryffindor. Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 14:43:55 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:43:55 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101003 > Pippin wrote: > No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's > wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two > Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? > Alla wrote: > Oh, G-d , Pippin, for some reason that line had me in hysterics. Of > course we can have two Wormtails. You know, special - buy one > Wormtail, get another one free. :o) > Neri wrote: > Good idea. We can also have two Siriuses. This way we can have one > ESE!Sirius who got killed (by ESE!Lupin, naturally) and one good > Sirius who is alive. That should satisfy everybody. Mandy here: Get thee gone to fandom! The lot of you! ;-) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:45:13 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:45:13 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy here: > Pureblood purity is the cornerstone of Salazar Slytherin's ideology, > yes, but not of Slytherin House, not any more. > > If Slytherin house, as it stands now in the 20th century, was only > composed of pureblooded children, I would agree with you, but it > simply can't be. The house would only have one or two kids per > year. Slytherin House, which started out as a haven for purebloods > only has had to become less selective over the centuries or it would > simply cease to exist just at the WW has had to change and embrace > muggle born wizards/witches. So where there are members of Slytherin > House who cling to the original ideology of Slytherin himself, like > Draco Malfoy, there are going to be others, including half bloods and > muggleborns, in the house who disregard it. And I believe Draco to be > in the minority. Of course without the missing 'good' Slytherin or as > I like to think, a more balanced, 3 dimentional Slytherin we can not > hope know any more about the House we love to hate. It will remain an > enigma. > > > Mandy I WANT to agree with you, but so far we know about one half-blood (probably?) who was in Slytherin- Voldie. What was the password to Slytherin Dorms in CoS? No, I think they still don't like muggle-borns much, unfortunately. Alla From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:51:56 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:51:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: Who Wants to Be the Slytherin Heir? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101005 Who Wants to Be the Slytherin Heir? Based on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire by Cole Porter. The song was made famous by Frank Sinatra in the film High Society, but the version I know is by Jones and Company, who had a bit of fun with it. Hope it scans. Dedicated to Kneasy, for a year of funny, provocative posts, which have given me many laughs and, occasionally, a touch of indigestion. Scene: Harry and Ron, polyjuiced into the forms of Crabbe and Goyle, are loitering about the Slytherin common room hoping to get a confession out of Draco. To their surprise, he starts to sing: Who wants to be the Slytherin heir? I don't. Strangling roosters everywhere? I don't. Who needs to murder ev'ry Mudblood ingrate? Too much on my plate, to bother with hate. Who wants to slither down the drain? I don't. Who wants a robe with fecal stain? I don't. Who wants to loiter in Myrtle's loo? I don't. And I don't 'cuz I'm important too! Who wants to be the Slytherin heir? I don't. Who wants to aim a monster's stare? I don't. Who wants to organize a major onslaught? Without getting caught, oh, no, I do not. Who wants a Chamber under far? I don't. To be the heir of Salazar? I don't. Who wants to be this mystery's clue? I don't. And I don't 'cuz I'm important too! Ginger, who seems to remember that there was another verse, but can't find the tape to be sure. If you have it and are singing along, just hum or do an instumental solo. OK? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 14:56:14 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:56:14 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101006 > vmonte here: > > I started reading OOTP recently and came across the scene in 12 GP > where Molly tells Sirius that Harry is not James no matter how much > he looks like him. It made me start thinking about all the other > times in the series that wizards/witches have commented on this. I > began looking through all the books and found that there are multiple > times where Harry is told that he looks like his father. (In OOTP > alone it is mentioned multiple times.) > > Why would JKR continuously tell us this? We already know that Harry > looks like James, so why beat us over the head with it? Has JKR > added this bit of info into every book so that we don't forget? > > Throughout the whole series JKR has tricked us with mistaken > identity. Harry sees himself in PoA but he thinks it's his father. > We also have fake Moody, Ron and Harry as Crab and Goyle, etc. > > How would you use this bit of info regarding Harry and James? I > think it can only mean that someone will confuse Harry with James. > But how is this possible since James is dead? > > I think it can only mean that Harry has to time-travel to the past. > Susan (teilani): Can anyone say Oedipus? Ewww. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 15:08:21 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:08:21 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101008 > Kneasy wrote: > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the intention of betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. Fleur and Cho are unlikely to have the background or experience to play the part. It would need someone a bit more mature > to flatter and beguile an impressionable growing lad. > > Do witches become cosmetically challenged as they mature? I doubt it. There's definitely a gap there. I don't necessarily predict that it will be filled in the next book, but eventually it will be. Mandy here: Yes a huge gap! Although Rowling did manage to pull Harry in to a greater sexual awareness with the introduction of all the female characters in OOP. His narrow awareness of women grew from noticing just schoolgirls and mother/teachers, to include other grown sexual females, in other words `women' in the last book. I can see three that exist already in the story so far: Prime Suspect - Tonk. Beautiful, sexy, only 20 something so the age is right. He idolizes her being an Aura and she can change her appearance at will. What a male fantasy! Different girl every night! Question is she ESE!Tonks? Luna. Not likely, although if she is ESE!Luna then she is doing a great job on playing up the little girl lost so we're soul mates angle. Not a conventional seductress though. Bellatrix: My personal favorite. She may be too old for him but what boy ever suffered from the lessons learned from an older mistress? Evil, beautiful, irresistible .say no more Narcissa: Could turn out to be a Metamorphagus like her niece. Although I have a personal fantasy that she is already having an affair with ESE!Lupin and they both swapping secrets. Cheers Mandy From LadySawall at aol.com Sat Jun 12 15:10:13 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:10:13 EDT Subject: Ferreting around Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101009 In a message dated 06/12/2004 9:11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jo writes: Hermione's patronus is an Otter which comes from the same family as Weasels and Ferrets. OK Weasels fuel the H/R shippers but what of Ferrets? Who do we know who is fairly intimate with Ferrets? Would that be Malfoy perchance? Did Crouch!Moody choose the Ferret transfiguration or did he simply unlock the inner Ferret!Malfoy. Could this fulfil Sleazy!Kneazy's desires, a m?nage a trois with extra musk? --- Jo Ann: On a different tangent, what really interests me about the Ferret/Weasel thing is that weasels are generally perceived as rather nasty creatures (their name is often used to describe a rodent-like, untrustworthy person) whereas ferrets are usually valued as cute and cuddly pets. Now I can see why JKR would have Malfoy apply the name "Weasel" to Ron as a play on his surname. But why create the ferret association for Malfoy? Crouch!Moody could just as easily have turned him into a possum or a skunk. It's like she's setting those two up opposite one another with reverse nicknames. Curious. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Sat Jun 12 15:13:55 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:13:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4703 Message-ID: <156.375ab14a.2dfc77b3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101010 In a message dated 06/12/2004 10:19:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: Jo Ann is feeling guilty about starting the Kevin Bacon game. Can you tell me what that is, as I feel I should share responsibility for starting Jo Ann off in the first place, if it's a bad thing to have done. --- Jo Ann: You name a random actor and try to build a chain between that actor and Kevin Bacon by naming other actors they've been in movies with. (Example, Harrison Ford has been in "Indiana Jones" with Sean Connery, who was with Kevin Bacon in...shoot, I can't remember the title, but I know they were both in it...) Anyway, I just meant that there seemed to be a similar pattern developing wherein you build a string of connections that leads to it all being Snape's Fault. It isn't a bad thing per se, just a rather silly thing. :) Jo Ann Who posted the Blame It On Snape! challenge last night: http://www.livejournal.com/users/amberdiceless/15799.html#cutid1 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 15:26:23 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:26:23 -0000 Subject: In every book someone mentions that Harry looks like his father. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101011 Phil wrote: How about Harry not James saving Snape from the prank? And like magical transportation, there may be more than one way to time travel. Smiles opening up another can of worms. vmonte responded: Phil - WOW! Fabulous! I've also been thinking that Ron must have been affected by the brain at the MoM. How will it change Ron? Who's brain is it (a founder, one of Harry's parents, a time-traveler?) Will he now have new and pertinent memories? Will this mind-meld cause Ron to become a true- seer? Or, is was this brain the mind of a time-traveler? -- Someone who was able to travel without need of a turner? vivian again: What if Ron has a dream about the Prophecy and wakes up back in time to witness to Trelawny's prophecy (Ron is the 2nd witness in the bar). DD throws him out, but Ron retells the prophecy to someone outside -- the wrong person. (A traitor within the Order?) DD after listening to the rest of the prophecy, goes outside and transports Ron back to his room. It's Ron's fault that Harry's parents were targeted. If Ron=DD it could also be why DD is now tight-lipped about giving information, and why he has made it his business to change the events of the past. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 15:54:03 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:54:03 -0000 Subject: Filk: Dark Mark Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101012 Dark Mark to the tune of Skylark. Words by Johnny Mercer, music by Hoagy Charmichael. To Haggridd, glad to hear you're home! Bellatrix, sitting in her cell the night of LV's rebirthing, notices that the Dark Mark once again burns on her arm. Dark Mark, why do you this night appear to me? Is my Master now returned and free? Is there a meeting I have missed? Has my Master spat and hissed? Dark Mark, have you seen a graveyard lined with yew? Where my Master cast a spell or two? Where all my brothers meet again, In a Muggle-ridden plain. And as you're burning bright Would you please tell me what occured tonight? Such strange occurance, silent for nigh thirteen years, grant me now this boon... Sad in this cell, anticipating him soon, oh, Dark Mark, I can't apperate to find these things, But my heart has found a snitch's wings. So if he's waiting anywhere Tell him I'll be there... Ginger, in a mellow mood today (mental note to self: filk a Barry Manilow song) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 15:58:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:58:55 -0000 Subject: Who it's about was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101013 Mel wrote : > Well, I don't think it's odd people dislike, Harry and I never said > that. I said it was odd that people would continue to like the > books to the point of doing "fan things" like joining web groups if > they didn't like Harry. The books are about Harry. They are his > life story. Del replies : In my idea, the books are no more about Harry only than my life is about me only. I'm the major actor of my own life for sure, but it's not all about me. It's the same for those books : Harry is the main actor since the story is told through his eyes, but it's not all about him. And even if I don't care that much about Harry himself, I care a lot about some other characters and about the story itself. Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 12 16:18:08 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:18:08 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > > As for the scar Like I said previously, the attempt of the AK hit > Harry but because of Lily's protection, that is stated above, didn't > kill him, but it still attempted to hit him causing Harry to be > struck and scared at the attempt, but not killed. So the initial hit > of green light struck Harry but rebounded leaving a scar went to Lily > killing her then to Voldemort and finally rebounding on the now > unprotected child (because all of Lily's charms have now been used) > that received some of Voldemort's powers. A whole lot of green light > bouncing! > Hang on a minute! You've got curses bouncing round like ping-pong balls! And you've got the sequence wrong. The protection did not exist until after Lily had sacrificed herself. Lily died - that created the protection;= as Voldy says: "His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not forseen...I could not touch the boy= ." "Unwittingly" is significant too - Lily didn't know what her sacrifice woul= d result in. There is an ambiguous little speech by DD in OoP chap 37, where he says that he set up the protection for Harry, but whether it was the Privet Drive blood-relation variety, the anti-Voldy variety or both is uncl= ear. Frustrating. Deliberately so, I suspect. What is clear is that it was Old Magic, something so obscure that Voldy disregarded it. Who would be more likely to know about such things? A young witch like Lily or a cunning old bastard like DD? I've wondered previously if the protection was set up beforehand without Lily's knowledge; a last-ditch defence that would be triggered automatically by her death. (That would mean that DD had a pretty good idea what might happen and still did not provide the Potters with proper protection. Well, if James and Lily have to die to turn Harry into Weapon!Harry then DD'd probably think it was worth it.) It's the sequence that makes me wonder why Harry only sees one green flash - the first kills Lily and he gets protection; where's the second tha= t gives him his scar? Very odd. Unless the curse that gives him his scar was something else entirely; something that projected the Voldy!Mind at Harry, was mostly repelled, but left some bits behind. The scar reacts depending on Voldy's level of activity. Is the scar the embodiment of the Voldy fragments that were left behind? If it reacts as described it's probably permanently linked to Voldy, may even be his means of access into Harry's mind; conversely it may be Harry's means of access into Voldy's mind at some critical time in the future. What would= happen if the scar were removed? It's possible that DD knows more about the scar than he lets on. In PS/SS Minerva suggests removing it, he responds "Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in useful." Like as a= portal into the mind of your enemy. Very handy. And if the mind of your enemy is mostly a damn near immortal parasitic entity that maybe could be lured out or otherwise dislodged, then the possibilities for fun and games increase geometrically. Voldy fed false information to Harry; any reason why Harry shouldn't return the compliment? Kneasy From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 12 16:30:00 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:30:00 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: snip Unless the curse that gives him his scar was > something else entirely; something that projected the Voldy!Mind at Harry, > was mostly repelled, but left some bits behind. > > > Kneasy Which is why I maintain that 'lightening bolt' is in fact a snake shape! Jo Happy anniversary kneasy! My spell checker thinks you're uneasy btw. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 16:31:54 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:31:54 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101016 Meri wrote : > Meri back again to clear up her original post: Harry, for someone > who was raised the way he was, *is* exceptionally compassionate. He > spent ten years in an abusive household, and that he came out of > that situation with the ability to feel anything at all towards > others that isn't contempt is really impressive to me. Del replies : I know you're going to hate that, but the way JKR wrote it always made me feel that Harry wasn't that much damaged by his upbringing. There are people who can go through the kind of emotional abuse Harry was submitted to and not be awfully damaged by it. And obviously Harry is one of those people. He always retained a good self-image and a healthy amount of self-worth no matter what. Moreover, it's a different matter to know whether Harry is exceptionally compassionate in the absolute or relatively to his childhood. If we take the childhood into account, then we can't judge Draco anymore, who was obviously taught not to be compassionate and loving. Meri wrote : > And yes there is > Hermione, but one other example is not "most wizards", and > Hermione's actions towards house elves are less from compassion and > more from righteous indignation. If she did feel compassion towards > them she would have just let Winky alone in GoF. Del replies : Hermione is not most wizards, but she's another Muggle-born just like Harry. *They* can be expected to be compassionate to so-called inferiors. Wizard-born kids can't. And as to what a compassionate attitude is, I guess it depends on personal sensitivities : I would have done just like Hermione. > > Meri wrote : > > > At the end of the ressurection scene in GoF, Harry grants > > > Ghost!Cedric's wish to return his body to his parents, something > > > which he does at great cost to himself. > > > > Del replied : > > Yep, *that* one really impressed me !! > > Meri answered : Sarcasm? I can't tell. Del explains : Nope, I was being serious this time. I *was* indeed very impressed that time. But I'm not sure I would classify that as compassion. > > Meri wrote : > > > He never tells Ron or Hermione about Neville's parents after > > > learning about their fate > > > > Del replied : > > So what ? He was forbidden to, he had no right to do so. > > Meri answered : There are lots of things Harry is forbidden to do, > and that usually doesn't stop him from gettin Ron and Hermione > involved. Del replies : Yes, but it would have been horrible if Harry had revealed a secret that was not his own. Morevoer, I don't see what was so compassionate in not revealing Neville's secret ? > Meri: Once again, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but > the fact is that Harry had never felt worse at that point, and while > wallowing in self loathing and greif he managed to feel for another > person. I don't know, that's pretty compassionate to me. Del replies : It *is* compassionate indeed. That's what I meant : Harry is learning to feel other people's pain even when he's feeling bad himself. That's grownup and compassionate indeed. Meri wrote : > And yes Hagrid is his friend, but Grawp and Norbert weren't really > Harry's business, were they? And he helped out. Del replies : When my friends are in trouble, I feel it is my business to help them out if they ask. Meri wrote : > I am still unclear what you mean by "kids like him". Harry is > pretty normal a kid. Do you mean average kids? Anyway, Harry is > exactly the kind of kid I wish there were more of: fundamentally > decent, fun, interesting, and totally normal. Del replies : Now that you mention it, I remember that I did not like normal, average kids, and I still don't. I guess that's where the roots of my problem lies, right :-) ? Del, who would love to have an Hermione for a daughter, and maybe a Neville for a son. From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Sat Jun 12 16:32:49 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:32:49 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mel" wrote: > If there is a little bit of Voldemort in Harry (as stated > in cannon) then the intrusion is "internal" not external. In which > case occlumency would not work and possibly make him worse. (clue > from cannon would be that Voldemort cannot block Harry and he is an > expert legilemens/occlumens) Of course, Snape and DD probably didn't > know that. I don't think their overall intentions were bad. Still, > if occlumency is an impossibility between Harry and Voldemort, is > Harry still to blame? I can think of two reasons for any wizard to learn Occlumency. One is to protect his thoughts from being known by a skilled Legilimens, and this seems to be the motive behind why Harry is given the lessons, so that Voldy can't find out what Harry knows, or manipulate Harry by planting info. But there is another reason, one we are reminded of almost everytime we meet Voldy. He can tell when someone is lying to him, and this is a skill related to Legilimency. So another reason to learn Occlumency is to be able to lie to a Legilimens and get away with it. I think this is one of the keys in how Snape is able to spy for the Order, Voldy believes him because he (Voldy) thinks he would know if Snape was lying to him. Or else Snape has a way of spying in some persona other than his own. We know of several ways people can be present and even participating but not be recognized: invizibility cloak, animagus, polyjuice potion, metamorphmagus, and whatever DD does. But to get back to Harry, something else that happened to him in OoP besides the Occlumency lessons, was his detentions with Umbridge. One of the results of that was a new scar. Now the back of his hand has a scar that says, "I must not tell lies." Maybe this makes the Occlumency lessons pointless or unneccesary. I think there is a connection, and that as evil as Umbridge is, her punishments may benefit Harry before it is all over. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 12 16:35:46 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:35:46 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: <40CB8824.31024.16C3FC6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > (4) It may have been expedient for Snape to keep Lucius Malfoy on side by appointing his son. > (5) If Draco wasn't appointed Prefect, Lucius would have transferred him to Durmstrang. Pippin From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 12 16:40:36 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:40:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) Message-ID: <8c.d3d0db5.2dfc8c04@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101019 In a message dated 6/12/2004 10:47:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: so far we know about one half-blood (probably?) who was in Slytherin- Voldie. ===================== Sherrie here: And according to JKR's own notes (see at http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/ ), at least one half-blood currently in Slytherin - see Bulstrode, M. There may be more, of course - we only see a small part of her notes here. And of course, that ruddy Hat seemed to have no problem with the idea of half-blood Harry in that House... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 12 16:46:26 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:46:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ferreting around Message-ID: <8.4f719b37.2dfc8d62@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101020 In a message dated 6/12/2004 11:26:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LadySawall at aol.com writes: Now I can see why JKR would have Malfoy apply the name "Weasel" to Ron as a play on his surname. But why create the ferret association for Malfoy? ============== Sherrie here: Maybe it's foreshadowing his fate - Buckbeak eats dead ferrets, doesn't he? And we know he ALREADY dislikes Dray... :::tongue is firmly in cheek here::: Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 16:48:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:48:49 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: <8c.d3d0db5.2dfc8c04@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2004 10:47:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > so far we know about one half-blood > (probably?) who was in Slytherin- Voldie. > > ===================== > > Sherrie here: > > And according to JKR's own notes (see at > http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/ ), at least one half-blood currently in Slytherin - see Bulstrode, M. > There may be more, of course - we only see a small part of her notes here. > > And of course, that ruddy Hat seemed to have no problem with the idea of > half-blood Harry in that House... > > Sherrie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Thanks for this information, Sherrie! maybe Millicent too will turn out to be a good Slytherin? I WANT the good Slyth, it is justwith evey book I find it lesss and less likely. Still, half-blood witch or wizard is not the same as muggle-born. And Hat could have its ulteriour motives wanting to place Harry there. I don't know- changing Slytherin House for the better from inside? Alla From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 17:14:55 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:14:55 -0000 Subject: Hate Harry / Love Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101022 snipping the majority of our earlier conversaations: > Del replies : > Now that you mention it, I remember that I did not like normal, > average kids, and I still don't. I guess that's where the roots of my > problem lies, right :-) ? > > Del, who would love to have an Hermione for a daughter, and maybe a > Neville for a son. I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, right? All in good fun, right? Well, you make some fair points, Del. As to how much Harry was effected by his childhood experiences, you are right. I always thought that JKR didn't do much showing how bad off he was. But anyway, perhaps there are longstanding consequences. After all, Harry knew by OotP, and before that I'm sure, that Aunt Petunia didn't "give a damn" about him, and in PoA we see the beginings of some of Harry's repressed anger bubble up, so we'll just have to wait and see. Anyway, remaining, always, a Harry lover till the end. Meri - who is always crushing on the young, troubled male hero (Harry, Luke Skywalker, Taran, etc.) From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 17:18:17 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:18:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power Vs Voldys Power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101023 For a while now Ive been thinking the same thought everytime Harry does something unusually magical or shows the talent for it, like for instance, the recent idea that he'd be good at legillimancy. Most of the time when something like this happens, people are quick to say that Harry would be good at it or can do it because Voldemort can do it. That it was just another one of his powers he accidentally transferred to Harry. I think to myself most times I come by these ideas, "Hey hang on a sec... How come this has to come from Voldemort? Why can't Harry be powerful in his own right? If the transfer had not taken place, would Harry just have the same normal wizarding powers as everyone else?" Ill concede the parseltongue business because that is exceedingly rare. But for most things I like to think that Harry would have been powerful and skilled at most magic without the added presence or gifts of Voldy. I tend to think that Harry has the potential to be as powerful as Dumbledore at some point but is definately more powerful than Voldemort. I've thought this since he forced those little balls of light back into Volys wand in the graveyard. Anyone have any thoughts on Harrys natural ability versus the extra ability given him by the most feared wizard for a century? Jason, who thinks Harry is going to be the most powerful wizard since Gryffindor. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 17:24:56 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:24:56 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? Harry as HB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stefaniealexisread" wrote: > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I > think that's all I have to say. > > "stefaniealexisread" I guess my question would be, why *wouldn't* he be one? We all know he's a little brown noser anyway. He's seemingly a pretty bright kid with influence over his peers. He's obviously a better candidate than Crabbe or Goyle. Theo Nott maybe? Nah, he's not a leader from what I've seen. Im pretty sure it'll come to Draco or Harry as HB in year 7 but given DDs reasons for not making Harry a prefect, surely he wouldnt give Harry the Headboyship... would he? Same goes for Quidditch Captain. Harrys got enough to be getting on with. Jason From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jun 12 17:35:39 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:35:39 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101025 > "jenny_ravenclaw" < wrote: > > > > In PoA, when Harry gets on the Knight Bus and Stan Shunpike asks > for his > > name, the first one that came to mind was Neville Longbottom. I > found that > > really interesting, after having read OoP, and knowing that there's > a real > > connection between Harry and Neville. > > > > Maybe the connection between the two boys is stronger than what > we've > > seen already, especially since Neville's name, of all the names > Harry could > > have chosen, jumped into Harry's head at such a random time. I'm > hoping > > we'll find out more about that prophecy and that it was no > coincidence that > > Neville was the last one standing (well, trying to stand) with > Harry at the MoM > > in OoP. > > > > I know Neville will never be as strong as Harry, but I'd like to > see him come > > even more into his own. I enjoyed seeing that in OoP, because > before that, I > > was not a Neville fan. > > > > --jenny from ravenclaw, defender of Harry 'till the end Hickengruendler: I think, that Neville is in many ways Harry's mirror. Both born at the end of July 1980 (and therefore connected by the prophecy), both lost their parents, when they were very very young (although we don't know exactly how young Neville was). Well, of course they still are young, but you know what I mean. Harry showed signs of magic very early and was treated badly by his relatives, who wanted to squash the magic out of him. Neville didn't show signs of magic at first and was treated badly by at least one relative (Uncle Algie and probably by Gran, too), because he wanted him to show signs of magic. The Sorting Hat took some time to sort both, and in the end both ended in Gryffindor. In the course of their first year, both had some tasks to overcome, Harry in the big way, but Neville his very personal tasks. Both succeded in the end, Harry defeating Voldemort and Neville getting the final points for the house cup. During Christmas in PS, Harry saw his parents in the Mirror of Erised, In OotP, again on Christmas, we saw a very similar scene with Neville, who, too, saw his parents, who couldn't speak with him. This, of course, was no mirror of Erised, but the sad truth, and, in contrast to Harry, Neville doesn't have any closure. He has to endure the same scene again and again. Even their enemies mirror the two. Bellatrix, who is responsible for Frank and Alice's condition (or at least the most important of the responsible characters, since Rodolphus and Rabastan are so far unimportant and Barty Crouch junior is already punished and out od the story), learned the Dark Arts from the Dark Lord, according to herself in the DoM. Neville learned Defence Against The Dark Arts from the one, who (hopefully) will defeat the Dark Arts. That's why I am sure that Neville will in the end be the one to defeat Bella. Of course there are also differences, mostly because of Voldemort's choice. He chose Harry and Neville could live in the shadows. Neville will never be as popular as Harry is, because he isn't "The Boy Who Lived", but Neville will also never be as hated as Harry, when the public opinion is against him. When Harry said, that his name was Neville Longbottom, he did so, because he didn't want to be recognized, and therefore Jo let him call himself "Neville Longbottom", because Harry wanted to be one of many, a part of the crowd his mirror character that lives in the shadows. In the end, I think their fates have to mirror each other, again. Jo said, that one of Harry's classmates will become a teacher, and I think it is Neville, not only because Jo ruled out the trio, and Neville is the most important classmate left, but also, because it would be a good mirror to Harry becoming an Auror. One goes out in the real world to fight, the other stays in Hogwarts to teach what is necessary. That's why I also think it might fit better, if Neville will teach DADA and not Herbology, which is admittingly the most likely subject. Hickengruendler From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Jun 12 17:47:06 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:47:06 -0000 Subject: Old Magic? (Re: Long lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101026 Hi all, I've been following (with delight) the `Long lived' thread. I find it very interesting, but I'm not here to continue it, only to ask a question: what is actually `Old Magic'? I have a faint idea of what `magic' is, because I have examples in the books. But `Old Magic' never appears clearly, we never see a character casting a spell saying `That's Old Magic' (maybe Voldemort in Book 4, with his re-embodiment ritual? Don't remember). So if you could give me your opinion, your definition (if you know about magic more than I will probably ever do) or tell me where I could find an explanation, I would be grateful. Every point of view (literal or symbolic) will help me, for I realize I'm completely ignorant. Amicalement, Iris From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sat Jun 12 17:48:49 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:48:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) Message-ID: <5a.2ca7f224.2dfc9c01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101027 In a message dated 6/12/2004 9:20:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, lyonsden at value.net writes: > Per canon, Snape tried twice to get Harry into the Pensieve to see > that memory, but the dam_ fool kid followed him out the door the first > time... Snicker... OK, but I have a different theory. I think Snape pulled out that memory *because* Harry had breached Snape's defenses before. I think, in his own Snapeish way he was being nice. Talk about DD forgetting what it's like to be a kid! A comment was made that the reason Shape ran out when Malfoy reported the reappearance of Montague was that he cares about his students. I wonder if this, coupled with his hatred of MWPP is what causes his hatred of Harry. Consider: Snape was picked on, even bullied by MWPP. He *knows* how this feels, what it can do to a student. Add to this Harry's resemblance to his dad and you get that Harry's actions will *always* be misinterpreted by Snape. Always. >From the very first. He isn't taking notes, he's ignoring Snape. He causes a disaster in class with a childish prank, injuring another student [the firework in the cauldron]. He makes an extremely complex potion after somehow stealing the ingredients, then misuses it to turn another student into a cat thing! And the student will not betray him either...part of his contempt for Hermione comes from that. It also explains but doesn't justify the "I see no difference", after all, if she didn't protest being turned into a cat-thing, why should this bother her? The whole potion thing adds to his hatred of Harry, if he believes Harry made it. If he's THAT good with potions, he's obviously deliberately slacking off in class! You can see all of his interactions with Harry that way, leading up to his fit in PoA. Then comes GoF and Harry's obvious [to Snape] deliberate trickery to enter. Add to this the slow but steady return of the Black Mark. Then LV is reborn and Snape learns the truth of MWPP and the traitor. He's thrown by this, witness his odd glance at Harry at the feast. So, now he's willing to give Harry a chance. I've no doubt the presence of Umbridge helped. Then he starts the occulamency lessons, and sees some of Harry's past. Harry's been abused, too. So, he decides to give the kid a chance. He pulls out his memories of his school interactions with MWPP, especially those that show James in a bad light. And the moronic brat PEEKS! No wonder he was furious. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Sat Jun 12 17:49:43 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:49:43 -0400 Subject: Harry being a Leo and all Message-ID: <40CB4237.1060201@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101028 Sorry I don't know the day he was born or what time, nor the lat and long of wherever he may have been born but this gives us a very general idea of what the heavens were like the end of July 1980. I'm sure everyone has already said Gryffindor=Lion=Leo=July 1000 x. From alabe.com's free service for all non-commercial use. (I have nothing to do with them, they were the 1st that came up in the google search) Name: Harry Potter July 31 1980 12:00 PM Time Zone is BST London, UK Rising Sign is in 16 Degrees Libra Very attractive and popular, your charm helps you to get your own way and prevents others from getting angry with you. "Peace and harmony at all costs" is your battle cry. You always try to ameliorate or to cosmetically hide any physical ugliness or any angry feelings between people. Flashy, but not gaudy, you prefer to dress elegantly. You generally have good taste in music, art and literature. Beware of the tendency to compromise yourself in your attempt to be agreeable at all times. A bit of a social butterfly, at times you can be vain and lazy. For the most part, however, you are gracious and affectionate, and your refined and aristocratic demeanor serves as a role model to others. Sun is in 08 Degrees Leo. More than a bit of a showoff, you love to be the center of attention! But others do not usually mind because they tend to enjoy your genuine warmth and affection. Very spirited and willful, proud and self-important at times, you demand your own way. You are quite honest, however, and the respect of others is very important to you. You never compromise yourself and you pursue your goals with persistence and dedication. Your regal presence and demeanor draws you to positions of leadership and authority. But beware of being overly hardheaded, domineering, ostentatious or patronizing or you will lose the goodwill and admiration that you enjoy. Very theatrical, you live life on a grand scale wherever and whenever possible. Your strength and energy vitalizes those who come in contact with you. Moon is in 27 Degrees Pisces. You have strong feelings and are extremely sensitive. It would help if you had a thicker skin -- you tend to react emotionally to every situation you come across. Kind, gentle and considerate of the feelings of others, you are good at taking care of the sick, wounded and helpless. But you tend to absorb the energy of others -- so avoid those who are always negative. You have a rich, creative and lively imagination, but you should be careful not to spend all your time daydreaming. Very intuitive, you have good ESP and may be quite clairvoyant or psychic. Remember that you too have the right to get what you want from life. If you are always defensive and kowtowing to others, people will take advantage of you and exploit you. Mercury is in 19 Degrees Cancer. Your emotions tend to rule your thought processes. You have difficulty seeing life objectively. You have an excellent memory, especially about things to which you have formed an emotional bond. You prefer ideas and thoughts that are known and familiar, and therefore tend to dislike fads or radical ideas. The beliefs and traditions of your family and culture are very important to you. Your thinking becomes quite unclear when you are emotionally shaken -- try not to make major decisions when you are upset. Let things calm down first. Venus is in 25 Degrees Gemini. You are friendly, warm, open and tolerant toward others. You love variety in relationships, indeed you may even prefer to maintain more than one relationship at a time! Very witty and humorous, you have the ability to amuse and please others. This makes you quite popular. You love to play the field and thus find it difficult to settle down and make any deep emotional commitments. Your innate charm and vivacity makes you welcome most everywhere you go. Mars is in 12 Degrees Libra. You are very aware of the need to cooperate with others in order to further any effort. You are usually willing to compromise with others, although you can be quite competitive in a friendly way. Very fair- minded and impartial, you have the ability to sense injustice and the desire to take corrective actions to make proper compensations. You see both sides of issues and questions, but you tend to be undecided or wavering when forced to make choices that might make you vulnerable or unpopular. Jupiter is in 11 Degrees Virgo. You feel most expansive and at ease with yourself when you are doing something that you consider to be practical or useful. You enjoy being dutiful and carrying out responsibilities. You gladly take on the little tasks that others seem to want to avoid. At times, you carry things to extremes and feel guilty anytime you do something that you consider to be self-indulgent. While it is appropriate for you to demand little for yourself in life, try to loosen up once in a while -- go out on a fling and enjoy yourself! Saturn is in 24 Degrees Virgo. Your life must be orderly and practical and full of known and familiar routines in order for you to feel comfortable with yourself. Be careful, however, not to let "order" become the be-all and end-all of your life, or you may become cold, crass and unfeeling. Doing useful, practical things boosts your self- esteem. Abstract concepts and reasoning seem frivolous and a waste of time to you. You are very critical of yourself (and others), indeed at times quite self-deprecating. Try to relax a bit and allow yourself the freedom to fail once in a while. However, you probably won't fail very often because you are such a perfectionist. Uranus is in 21 Degrees Scorpio. You, and your peer group, demand to confront life at its deepest and most meaningful levels. Very compulsive and obsessive in your approach to everything, you will avoid anything that is casual or superficial, especially when it comes to relationships. You will seek out and explore new methods of healing as well as different ways to deal with deep-seated emotional problems. Neptune is in 20 Degrees Sagittarius. You, and your entire generation, are heavily involved in investigating and idealizing foreign and exotic intellectual systems and religious philosophies. The most extreme ideals will be pursued with gusto. You will be at the forefront of humanitarian attempts to improve the lot of those who are in need of assistance. You will be comfortable with the concept of the "global village." Pluto is in 19 Degrees Libra. For your entire generation, this is a time of radical changes in society's attitude toward marriage and interpersonal relationships. There is a general fear and awe at the power inherent in making emotional or contractual commitments -- they will not be entered into lightly. N. Node is in 20 Degrees Leo. You prefer to take the leadership role when it comes to dealing with others. You enjoy administering and organizing group activities. Others tend to listen to your suggestions because you aren't usually overly domineering or patronizing in your interactions. You love to entertain in a big way -- you're at your best when throwing a large and lavish party. Your popularity and social success are assured as long as you don't take others for granted -- resist the temptation to become snobbish and arrogant. Jem From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 18:00:51 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:00:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power Vs Voldys Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101029 Jason wrote: > For a while now Ive been thinking the same thought everytime Harry > does something unusually magical or shows the talent for it, like > for instance, the recent idea that he'd be good at legillimancy. > > Most of the time when something like this happens, people are quick > to say that Harry would be good at it or can do it because Voldemort > can do it. That it was just another one of his powers he > accidentally transferred to Harry. > > I think to myself most times I come by these ideas, "Hey hang on a > sec... How come this has to come from Voldemort? Why can't Harry be > powerful in his own right? If the transfer had not taken place, > would Harry just have the same normal wizarding powers as everyone > else?" > > Ill concede the parseltongue business because that is exceedingly > rare. But for most things I like to think that Harry would have been > powerful and skilled at most magic without the added presence or > gifts of Voldy. I tend to think that Harry has the potential to be > as powerful as Dumbledore at some point but is definately more > powerful than Voldemort. I've thought this since he forced those > little balls of light back into Volys wand in the graveyard. > > Anyone have any thoughts on Harrys natural ability versus the extra > ability given him by the most feared wizard for a century? Neri: As the Harry haters would be quick to point out, that would not be very interesting. And fanfic writers will immediately recognize it as a Gary Stu syndrome. I think Harry is not a very powerful or very talented wizard. He has one power, a sort of anti-Voldemort thing, which is his main strength. Harry is a hedgehog rather than a fox. He doesn't know many things, but he knows one BIG thing. I also hypothesized in the past that Harry can access all of LV's powers right out of LV's mind through the scar link. This could make Harry extremely powerful (practically the Dark Lord's "equal"), at the price of opening his mind to LV. It would also be a more interesting possibility than just-extremly-powerful Harry. In such a case, if LV is vanquished, Harry goes back to be a slightly-above- average wizard. Neri From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 18:12:45 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:12:45 -0000 Subject: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101030 snip of my previous post (snow) > > As for the scar Like I said previously, the attempt of the AK hit > > Harry but because of Lily's protection, that is stated above, didn't > > kill him, but it still attempted to hit him causing Harry to be > > struck and scared at the attempt, but not killed. So the initial hit > > of green light struck Harry but rebounded leaving a scar went to Lily > > killing her then to Voldemort and finally rebounding on the now > > unprotected child (because all of Lily's charms have now been used) > > that received some of Voldemort's powers. A whole lot of green light > > bouncing! Kneasy replied: > Hang on a minute! > You've got curses bouncing round like ping-pong balls! > And you've got the sequence wrong. The protection did not exist until > after Lily had sacrificed herself. Lily died - that created the protection;= > as > Voldy says: > "His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided > him with a protection I admit I had not forseen...I could not touch the boy= > ." > > "Unwittingly" is significant too - Lily didn't know what her sacrifice woul= > d > result in. There is an ambiguous little speech by DD in OoP chap 37, where > he says that he set up the protection for Harry, but whether it was the > Privet Drive blood-relation variety, the anti-Voldy variety or both is uncl= > ear. > Frustrating. Deliberately so, I suspect. Snow: If we are to believe in what Voldemort says, I guess you could look at it from this point of view, but I am suspect to someone who has been known to lie. Even if what Voldemort says is not an out right lie it is still an assumption on his part that the charm was unwittingly administered. There are several reasons why I feel that the charm was purposely placed in advance. The first is the fact that DD asked to be secret keeper but was refused. I would think that DD would not feel that anyone other than himself could be 100% trusted with such an important task, so he would be a bit suspicious of the whole secret keeper protection at this point. If DD were suspicious of anyone else performing as the secret keeper, I would think that he would invoke some other protective factors in the event the fidelius charm should fail. DD could have spoke with Lily about some further protections for Harry in the event that Voldemort would break through the fidelius protection. The second reason to believe that this protective charm was not unwittingly applied is the fact that Lily is a very talented, bright witch. Many people have said this, so I think she should be regarded as a person, and more over a protective mother, that would have ensured more safety for her son than just the fidelius charm. Lily would had to have felt extremely secure in their secret keeper to have just relied on one protection. I really feel she had a back up plan or two just in case, especially since the secret keeper she was to rely on changed suddenly at the last minute. Lily and James would have had to feel somewhat like sitting ducks if this fidelius was there only source of protecting their son. In the end I guess it depends on how informed Lily and James were to the reason why Voldemort could possibly be coming after them. Did they know about the prophecy or that it could apply to their son? Were they in hiding for themselves or for protection of Harry? I have to admit that I view them as knowing about the prophecy and therefore would have had more than one protection for Harry's sake. Even if they didn't know of the prophecy, I would think that both of them would be bright enough not to keep all their eggs in one basket, so to speak, with only one source of protection. Kneasy: > What is clear is that it was Old Magic, something so obscure that Voldy > disregarded it. >snip< Snow: Voldy as a young Tom Riddle didn't remember that the phoenix which he disregarded as an old song bird had special properties as well. He doesn't think of the old magic any more than he thought of the phoenix tears. Not very bright is he? Just another example of why I don't trust in what he states to be fact. It seems Voldy has a bit of sometimers. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 18:32:55 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:32:55 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101031 > > Kneasy wrote: > > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent > >who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the > >intention of betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt > >unity. > Mandy here: > > Yes a huge gap! Although Rowling did manage to pull Harry in to a > greater sexual awareness with the introduction of all the female > characters in OOP. His narrow awareness of women grew from noticing > just schoolgirls and mother/teachers, to include other grown sexual > females, in other words `women' in the last book. > > I can see three that exist already in the story so far: > > Prime Suspect - Tonk. Beautiful, sexy, only 20 something so the age > is right. He idolizes her being an Aura and she can change her > appearance at will. What a male fantasy! Different girl every > night! Question is she ESE!Tonks? > > Luna. Not likely, although if she is ESE!Luna then she is doing a > great job on playing up the little girl lost so we're soul mates > angle. Not a conventional seductress though. > > Bellatrix: My personal favorite. She may be too old for him but > what boy ever suffered from the lessons learned from an older > mistress? Evil, beautiful, irresistible .say no more > > Narcissa: Could turn out to be a Metamorphagus like her niece. > Although I have a personal fantasy that she is already having an > affair with ESE!Lupin and they both swapping secrets. Neri: An interesting thread. Lets remember for a minute what is JKR's biggest wildcard: the next DADA teacher. I was playing with guesses what will he/she be, based on what we still haven't got in the previous five books. The beautiful temptress fits right in. Hmmm. She could even be a vampire... However, if this really happens, many distinguished group members will have to get over their SHIP aversion, or they won't be able to discuss the main plot :-) Neri From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 12 18:40:44 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:40:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How do owls get their names? References: Message-ID: <004901c450ac$c5c8e190$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101032 > Diane writes: > | > | Hedwig was named by Harry in the first book. She is named after a witch > | that was know to be a protector of the oppressed. > > [Lee]: > Interesting...what's the ref on this? I didn't see that in the book, only > that Hedwig was from the History of Magic book. > I think by "protector of the oppressed" Diane is talking about a real life Hedwig not one in the books. Alina. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 18:48:44 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:48:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <40CAE4A0.7939.5D10C19@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101033 If we look at Hogwarts and compare it to a regular school system, at least the one in the US that I'm familiar with, career counseling didn't come until one's junior year of high school. So, even though we had electives we could take when starting HS or in the middle of HS, the career thing and college thing didn't start to rear its ugly head until junior year. So, not seeing career advice until Harry's fifth year doesn't seem at all unusual. And, just as in regular school, there are going to be very studious students that take all the classes they can for whatever reasons, possibly with future careers in mind, and others who don't cross that bridge until they're faced with it. Like I say, getting career pamphlets in Hogwarts fifth year doesn't seem at all unusual. Again, it wasn't until the next to the last year of high school that we started to meet with a career counselor, be notified of job fair type things, FIGURE OUT WHAT COLLEGE/UNIVERSITY WE WANTED TO GO TO (FOR THOSE SO INTERESTED), etc. Cheers, Lee (Who should get out of rambling mode.) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 18:51:26 2004 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:51:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101034 > vmonte responds: > > Dudley relives a lost memory from his childhood through the Dementor > attack. I think that the Dementor that attacked Dudley made him > remember something he saw as a baby. > > From OOTP (Page 30, U.S. version): "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, > shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I heard....things. Inside m- my > head..." > > Petunia then responds in a way that makes it seem that she is worried > that her son may be losing his mind: > > "What sort of things did you hear, popkin?" breathed aunt Petunia, > very white-faced with tears in her eyes. > > But maybe Petunia was worried that Dudley might have remembered > something that happened in the past. Something he should not have > seen. > > "But Dudley seemed in capable of saying. He shuddered again and shook > his large blond head, and despite the sense of numb dread that had > settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a > certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst > moments of their life...What would spoiled, pampered, bullying Dudley > have been forced to hear?" > > Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows him > up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's > conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was > searching for the Potter's) before he reached word from wormtail. He > may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact > Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter with > a dementor as a baby! (I don't think that Dudley's worst fear was > getting a pigtail.) This is a great idea. The only thing to wonder is when it happened. VM would have 15 months between the hearing of the (partial) prophesy and finding the child who fulfilled it. Dudley was born only a few months before Harry, so it must have been very shortly before the attack at Godric's Hollow. We know that Petunia had met James, because she mentions he told her about the Dementors guarding Askaban. Maybe James and Lily stopped off to see Petunia when they were on the run and VM followed them there? bowlwoman From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 18:56:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:56:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily destroyed Voldemort?? Was: Re: Long lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101035 My take: When Harry says about remembering a lot of green light, remember he was only something like 18 months old and probably couldn't distinguish between one or two, especially if they came very rapidly. Let's say that he was probably asleep when all this started, awakened, was scared, maybe had his eyes squinted shut just as many little rug rats do. The light might be seen through the squinting, but whether it was one AK or two might not be obvious, just a lot of green light. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 19:11:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:11:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <023201c45023$7920b2c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101036 | From: Alina | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 22:18 PM | But what I'm saying is, say Harry read this Gringott's leaflet and said, | "You know what, I fancy working for them." Only they say he needs | a NEWT in | Arithmancy and Hogwarts' Arithmancy teacher is refusing to accept anyone | without an Acceptable OWL in it. Harry, having never taken Arithmancy | before, is stuck isn't he? [Lee]: Well, my thinking is there are five days in a school week, and, IMO, that does leave plenty of time for teaching arithmancy (which starts in the second year and continues through third, fourth, fifth and, possibly sixth), with time to spare. Perhaps there's another class for those who start the course late...an alternate class. Or, that might be a reason to seek advanced training...a tutor. Cheers, Lee :-) From bburkett at uiuc.edu Sat Jun 12 15:36:45 2004 From: bburkett at uiuc.edu (hopping_hessien) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:36:45 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stefaniealexisread" wrote: > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? For plot reasons: Malfoy is a bully and tomentor and that role is much better served in a position of power. Also, we don't know too many Slytherins, so Malfoy is the best out of a limited choice. Other reasons: I'm guessing that heads of houses nominate students for prefects and I can see Snape nominated Malfoy. Besides, a prefect is a leader and, if nothing else, Malfoy has shown that he is a leader. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 21:08:46 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:08:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > > vmonte responds: > > > > Dudley relives a lost memory from his childhood through the > Dementor > > attack. I think that the Dementor that attacked Dudley made him > > remember something he saw as a baby. > > > > From OOTP (Page 30, U.S. version): "All dark," Dudley said > hoarsely, > > shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I heard....things. Inside m- > my > > head..." > > > > Petunia then responds in a way that makes it seem that she is > worried > > that her son may be losing his mind: > > > > "What sort of things did you hear, popkin?" breathed aunt Petunia, > > very white-faced with tears in her eyes. > > > > But maybe Petunia was worried that Dudley might have remembered > > something that happened in the past. Something he should not have > > seen. > > > > "But Dudley seemed in capable of saying. He shuddered again and > shook > > his large blond head, and despite the sense of numb dread that had > > settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a > > certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst > > moments of their life...What would spoiled, pampered, bullying > Dudley > > have been forced to hear?" > > > > Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows > him > > up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's > > conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was > > searching for the Potter's) before he reached word from wormtail. > He > > may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact > > Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter > with > > a dementor as a baby! (I don't think that Dudley's worst fear was > > getting a pigtail.) > > This is a great idea. The only thing to wonder is when it happened. > VM would have 15 months between the hearing of the (partial) prophesy > and finding the child who fulfilled it. Dudley was born only a few > months before Harry, so it must have been very shortly before the > attack at Godric's Hollow. > > We know that Petunia had met James, because she mentions he told her > about the Dementors guarding Askaban. Maybe James and Lily stopped > off to see Petunia when they were on the run and VM followed them > there? > > bowlwoman Susan now: Ooh! that has great potential when linked up with Snow's "long lived" post about Lily, James and DD's protection spells. Maybe Petunia had to be in on the whole family-blood thing for it to work. Maybe if her parents were still alive, they'd have to be in on it as well. And need I say it? Perhaps that's why not only James and Lily, but their parents are dead so young as well. Perhaps even another connection between DD and Petunia. Hmmm. Opinions? From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Sat Jun 12 21:32:13 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:32:13 -0000 Subject: Werewolves and potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101039 I've seen several comments in various places wondering about Lupin transforming into a werewolf in POA, i.e. why he only transformed when he saw the full moon, even though the moon was already full and he should have transformed whether he saw it or not. I think there is a clue to this in the potion that Snape makes for him. When we first see the potion, Snape brings it to him a week before the full moon, but mentions that there is more. This tells me that it isn't something that he drinks once each month (a week in advance), but that he needs to drink it often, at least daily, beginning about a week before the full moon. So when Lupin forgets his potion on that one night, he has been drinking it on schedule up until then, and so it has a partial effect on him, protecting him from transformation until he actually sees the full moon. The drawback to this is that we know the potion doesn't keep him from transforming, just keeps him sane once it hapens, so he should still have transformed earlier, just not gone berserk. Still, I think it matters that he had some of the potion in him, so partial protection. Maybe it gave him just enough sanity to run off into the forest away from those who would otherwise be his prey. From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 12 14:26:21 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:26:21 -0400 Subject: career advice / Dudley / Harry as DADA teacher References: <1087045428.15457.99040.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005301c45089$3bfe9c20$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101040 >Trevor: > I found this slightly irregular as well. The troubling part >is that > not only do the kids not focus on their choices for >OWL classes nor > receive info but also the parents do >not seem to be involved (not a > big deal for Harry >but for the others.). This could just be an omission > of >the books, which focus on Harry: who would not > receive guidance > from the Dursleys anyway. Alternatively, JKR is perhaps not perfect > and could have >possibly skipped this detail. Christina: I don't think Harry or many of the other kids really thought about it, except for Hermione. They probably just assumed they would work at the ministry or at Hogwarts in some fashion. There are a lot of parents who don't really care what their child wants to do or be. My parents couldn't care less if I ever went to college. It took me until the age of 28 to decide what I wanted to do for a career and I'm now going to college on my own. I remember in high school having a meeting with a *guidance counselor* but it was more of a joke, really. He did get me to sign up for the college prep classes instead of the standard, though, even though I wasn't planning to attend college. But he wasn't very interested in anything I had thought about for after high school. I think it's neat that the trio talk about being Aurors after meeting fake Moody and thinking he was real Moody. He must have been pretty good to get them thinking that way. > Leeann: > Strong emotions! Dudders hasn't shown anything like that. Christina: Dudley hasn't shown strong emotion because his parents keep giving him his every whim and keeping him happy. It could just be that they are spoiling him in order to show Harry that Dudley is their son, not him, or it could be they are trying to keep him from any strong emotion. > Dzeytoun: > Can anybody see any hope, here? I would very much >like to think that > Harry will end up as the DADA >teacher. Christina: I still think it could be very likely. Being headmaster would be quite different that being the DADA teacher. That seems like it would be a lot of fun and still have some action. By the time the 7th book is over he may have seen enough action. Christina in GA From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 16:46:43 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:46:43 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101041 Mandy wrote: > Prime Suspect - Tonk. Beautiful, sexy, only 20 something so the age is right. He idolizes her being an Aura and she can change her > appearance at will. What a male fantasy! Different girl every > night! Question is she ESE!Tonks? Bren: HAHA! Male fantasy indeed! > Luna. Not likely, although if she is ESE!Luna then she is doing a > great job on playing up the little girl lost so we're soul mates > angle. Not a conventional seductress though. Bren: Perhaps I'm being naive, but I would like to think of Harry's Hogwarts friends as good-natured wizards. It seems to me that Harry has a knack for choosing friends with pure souls (or at least with good heart). I think he's suffered too much to deserve *that*. > Bellatrix: My personal favorite. She may be too old for him but > what boy ever suffered from the lessons learned from an older > mistress? Evil, beautiful, irresistible .say no more Bren: Haha, believe it or not, she is my personal favorite too. She reminds me very much of Elizabeth Hurley in "Bedazzled". Naturally, I found myself cracking up when Kneasy (I think?) mentioned "Be- dazzled" in relation to "dear Bella in dominatrix". I always imagined Bella to be Voldy's lover, haha. > Narcissa: Could turn out to be a Metamorphagus like her niece. > Although I have a personal fantasy that she is already having an > affair with ESE!Lupin and they both swapping secrets. Bren: Oy, Narcissa with half-human? I think she would feel indignified... Brenda, who has gotten tired of serious debate and decided to turn to more humorous ones, such as this =) From jodel at aol.com Sat Jun 12 21:52:22 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:52:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power Vs Voldys Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101042 > > Anyone have any thoughts on Harrys natural ability versus the extra ability given him by the most feared wizard for a century? > Well, Rowling has rather cut the ground out from under that particular avenue of exploration by making sure that the only really remarkable skill we've seen Harry discover that pretty clearly *wasn't* from Voldemort was also read as an inhereted ability. Namely, James Potter's talent as a flyer. That one pretty clearly had nothing to do with Tom Riddle. But she's said already that Harry will be discovering new powers, so maybe one of those will be unique to him alone. Frankly, apart from Parseltongue, much of the "magical transfusion"'s effects so far have been more on the order of giving Harry an additional "amount" of power rather than specific gifts in specific directions. As for Legilimency; I'm inclined to suspect that Harry will be better at Legilimency than he is at Occlumency, but that skill is described as "obscure" rather than "rare", so quite a few other people may share it (my money is on Remus Lupin). I also suspect that it is a skill which usually develops in early childhood under certain environmental circumstances, which were not present in the Dursley household. So Harry's Legilimency skills, if any, are completely latent at present. He may (we shall hope) be able to learn enough to protect himself, but I doubt he will ever be the master Legilimens that tom Riddle is. In fact, Harry's magical advantages so far appear to only kick into gear when he is dealing directly with Voldemort, and those advantages have been severly undercut now that Voldemort is back on the physical plane and aware of the link. I also suspect that Dumbledore et. als. were going at the problem from the wrong direction in OotP by trying to teach Harry to simply block the link. What needs to happen is for Harry to learn to *control* the link. He needs to learn to be as much of a headache to Voldemort as Voldemort is to him. From bd-bear at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 17:22:24 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:22:24 -0400 Subject: Why was VM after the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101043 I apologize if this topic has been brought up before, but as I'm relatively new to the list, I thought I'd ask. I was just recently thinking about what we know of the whole Secret Keeper stuff and how DD was tipped off that VM was after the Potters and I'm wondering WHY. Maybe it was mentioned in OotP, and if so, please enlighten me. I read the book once when it came out and am due to read it again in about a week (after I finish PoA and GoF again). Also, has anyone considered that VM knew of the prophecy and wasn't actually after the Potters but Harry back GH? I've been reading you all talking about a prophecy VM wanted to find out about in OotP, but again, I was thinking, doesn't he go after Harry and Lily actually dies trying to save him? Why go after a baby, unless just out of cruelty to hurt his parents? I'm just pulling this out of my head, don't have any canon to support it, so if you do, please enlighten me! Barbara, with lots of thoughts, none of which are making any sense right now, sorry! bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From ciceronian at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 17:42:29 2004 From: ciceronian at hotmail.com (~Maitresse) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:42:29 -0000 Subject: Percy & Voldemort (was Question re "little hint" in Bk 2 and Long Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101044 Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book > 2 will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have > no idea what that might be. > > Ideas? This is my first time posting here, so here goes. I was rereading CoS and I saw something I didn't remember before... Chapter Four, page 58 they found Percy, deeply immersed in a small and boring book called Prefects Who Gained Power. ..... "Course, he's very ambitious, Percy, he's got it all planned out...He wants to be Minister of Magic..." Ron told Harry and Hermione -And of course we all know who a Prefect who gained power was. I just thought combined with his actions in OOTP, perhaps Percy will think that the best way for this to happen is through VM. ~Maitresse From bd-bear at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 17:59:34 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:59:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: <20040611043657.99899.qmail@web60208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101045 >>>From: Sheryl Klingbeil [mailto:verysherryk at yahoo.com] In GOF, when the smooke forms come out of LV's wand, JKR writes "Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. "Your father's coming...' she said quietly, 'Hold on for your father[...]'" (GOF 667). Looks like Harry's dad is indeed dead. Also, I don't think Harry went back and time and is the person who held off LV. Whoever held him off would be dead, as LV was trying to kill Harry and fulfill the prophesy, he probably wouldn't use stunners in that case. So therefore, whoever held him off would have died before Lily and would have come out of the wand after her. That person was James, IMO.<<< Whoops, forgot about that. Only read GoF a few times. You'd think I would have remembered that! Barbara bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 18:54:07 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:54:07 -0000 Subject: Missing character In-Reply-To: <026301c45028$0ad9b410$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101046 Alina wrote: > I'd have to say Bellatrix seems the most likely candidate to Evil > Temptress. Makes sense. She is the representation of the White Queen on the PS/SS chess board, is she not? > She reminds me of all the typical Evil Temptresses, like the Witch > in Chronicles Of Narnia. I agree, it's not very likely that Harry > or any of his friends could be lulled by her into believing she wants > to help them and then be betrayed Ironically, the "Witch" in "The Chronicles of Narnia" is technically the *White* Witch. White Witch = White Queen? Unless of course, she took someone else's form. Someone that Harry or his friends trusted. Bellatrix *is* Nymphadora Tonks' aunt. Narcissa Black-Malfoy is also related to Tonks (another aunt). Tonks is a natural metamorphmagus. Maybe Bellatrix or Narcissa also carry that *natural*, as yet undisclosed, ability in the blood? Voldemort has an unregistered (allbeit, now revealed) animagus on his side in Pettigrew. Why not a secret metamorphmagus too? "annunathradien" From stefaniealexisread at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 20:44:31 2004 From: stefaniealexisread at yahoo.com (stefaniealexisread) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:44:31 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101047 "stefaniealexisread" wrote: > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I > think that's all I have to say. Alright it's me again. When I asked why Malfoy was a prefect there were a couple of inconsistencies? 1) Why would Snape try to be on malfoy's good side when it is clear he isn't anymore? He's working aginst Voldemort and he revealed that in the trials years ago which cleared him of being a death eater. 2) When Cedric Diggory died Malfoy and his crew showed absolutely no sympathy at the end of book 4 and wouldn't raise their glasses to Harry. I remember that shocked me because it crossed a line -- it means that Malfoy is not simply misguided but EVIL. So why appoint a person who clearly is going to grow up and be a death eater in a position of power at hogwarts? Especially at a time when Dumbeldore emphasizes 'unity'. And really if the Slytherins are all like this why don't they get rid of this house altogether? It just seems to breed dark magic lovers/muggle haters. "stefaniealexisread" From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 21:27:22 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Question about name-calling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040612212722.26999.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101048 > Meri - who thinks we should have an on-list euphamism > for "mudblood". "Differently parented" perhaps? Annemehr: > No euphemism needed -- they're called "Muggle-born." Or the politically correct - "Parentally Challenged" moonmyyst From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 21:27:12 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:27:12 -0000 Subject: Liability for Sirius' death In-Reply-To: <02cb01c45033$44a6c1f0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101049 "Alina" wrote: > It's strange, I see all these posts blaming Harry for Sirius' > death, DD for Sirius' death, even Sirius himself. > > I blame Bellatrix Lestrange who was actually the person to murder > Sirius and Voldemort who lured all those people into the DOM in > the first place. I think Sirius's death is a tragic accident more than anything else. Sirius didn't get ak'd throwing himself in front of Harry or Remus. Bellatrix didn't actually AK him, it was red light not green. If he'd been standing anywhere else.... Of course in general we can blame her and Voldemort but I think that misses the point. I think JKR wanted to show that death in war is often senseless. Of course if you believe the ESE!Lupin theory, it's his fault, but "my" Remus is not a bad guy :-) Beth Gaughan From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 22:00:18 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:00:18 -0000 Subject: Why is Malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: <40CB8824.31024.16C3FC6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101050 Shaun wrote: > There's a few possible reasons. > > (1) My personal favourite is the idea that Prefects are chosen by > the Housemaster or mistress (though the Headmaster has some say as > well), based on who is the best exemplar of the prime > characteristics of their house. > > (Under this theory, the Head Boy and Head Girl are those who best > exemplify the characteristics of the school - all Houses combined. > I like this idea, personally, because I can see it leading to Harry > and Hermione as Head Boy and Head Girl (Hermione has revealed she > could have gone to Ravenclaw - which means she is suitable for two > Houses - and Harry could have gone to Slytherin - giving him two as > well. (Note - the time the Sorting Hat took to decide on Neville > suggests he is in a similar boat - a possible Hufflepuff, perhaps. > Malfoy, on the other hand is an instant Slytherin). This reasoning fits well with what we know about the MWPP era - that Remus was the prefect but James was head boy. Now, we don't know that Minerva was head of house when the boys were in school only that she was there. However, it does make sense that she would select the bookish and more responsible Remus as prefect. Then Dumbledore, looking for more general qualities, would pick James for Head Boy. We know that James showed leadership quailities regardless of his troublemaking. Beth Gaughan From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 22:15:49 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:15:49 -0000 Subject: Not changing events at GH but keeping them the same. Was: Harry at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101051 Barbara wrote: Looks like Harry's dad is indeed dead. Also, I don't think Harry went back and time and is the person who held off LV. Whoever held him off would be dead, as LV was trying to kill Harry and fulfill the prophesy, he probably wouldn't use stunners in that case. So therefore, whoever held him off would have died before Lily and would have come out of the wand after her. That person was James, IMO. vmonte responds: I also think that Lily and James are dead--both via Voldemort's wand. But it doesn't necessarily mean that Harry couldn't have been there as well (or someone else for that matter). James could have been killed earlier that day, and the person that tells Lily to run may have escaped, or been killed via some other means. I remember in the PoA book how Harry, Ron, and Hermione all used the expelleriamus spell to get at Snape's wand. Because multiple people used the same spell Snape was propelled against the wall. Perhaps more than one person was casting spells that night and the total effect created the explosion that rocked the Potter house. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 22:02:30 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:02:30 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101052 Stefanie wrote: > [snip] > > Snape knew the ramifications of Voldemort prying into Harry's > > head. As DD states: "'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake > > inside you the very night that you had the vision of Arthur > > Weasley's attack. I knew at once that my worst fears were correct: > > Voldemort had realised he could use you. In an attempt to arm you > > against Voldemort's assaults on your mind, I arranged Occlumency > > lessons with Professor Snape.'" (OotP 37) > > > > So DD realizes that Voldemort can use Harry to attack people. > > Demetra: > Nothing in this quote indicates that DD thought Voldemort would > put false visions in Harry's mind. I read it as DD thought that > Voldemort could possess Harry's mind. I wrote my thoughts on the > whole issue of the Occlumency lessons and what I think DD really > wanted to accomplish in my post# 100856. In short, I don't see > how Occlumency, which is a way to block Legilimency, could have > helped Harry. Voldemort was not practicing Legilimency on Harry. > There was another purpose to the lessons - IMO, DD wanted Harry to > learn how to repel assault/possession of Harry's mind. And while > Harry didn't master Occlumency, he most definitely succeeded in > repelling Snape during the lessons. Stefanie responds: I don't think this quote indicates DD knew LV could put *false* visions in Harry's mind...I believe, however, that it shows the gravity of the situation at hand. DD knew that Harry could be used, and the effects of this were quite horribly shown in Arthur Weasley's attack. DD, as well as, I believe, Snape knew from Arthur's attack just how lethally LV could use Harry... Snape, with this information, seemed to have put his pride, and hatred of James, above the well being of ALL of the Order members -- that is by no means excusable...whether Harry did or did not practice, whether his pride was wounded with the exposition of the Pensieve scene, Snape KNEW that in Voldemort's first attempt at using Harry through something else, he had been able to achieve a direct attack. If he really cared for the safety of the Order, that would be a more pressing issue than a "schoolboy grudge." From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 22:35:27 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:35:27 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101053 > stefaniealexisread wrote: > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I > think that's all I have to say. Mandy here: Give the boy credit where credit's due. Aside from Snape needing to keep Lucius happy I have a couple of other good reasons: Draco is an exceptionally good student. He would be top student in their year if Hermione hadn't beaten him to it. Remember Lucius berating Draco in Knockturn Ally for coming second to a mudblood. We know Hermione was top, so that puts Draco in second place. A far better student than either Harry or Ron. Draco is also a born leader just like Harry and Hermione. (Not Ron who, with all due respect, is a beta male and needs to be to support Harry.) And remember the side of Draco that we see through Harry is not what the teachers see. Although I'm sure most of the teaching staff aren't fooled. Draco is perfect Prefect material. Yes he's a Slytherin and a complete wanker, but 20 years ago DD believed enough in another complete wanker to make him head boy. Mr James Potter. Mandy From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 22:34:00 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:34:00 -0000 Subject: The Evil Temptress Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101054 > Kneasy wrote: > But where is the Evil Temptress? The beautiful female enemy agent who worms her way into the hero's affections / confidence with the intention of betraying him, or goes after his sidekick to disrupt unity. Fleur and Cho are unlikely to have the background or experience to play the part. It would need someone a bit more mature > to flatter and beguile an impressionable growing lad. > > Do witches become cosmetically challenged as they mature? I doubt it. There's definitely a gap there. I don't necessarily predict that it will be filled in the next book, but eventually it will be. I'm sorry not to see ESE Ginny featuring in replies to this post. While rather young for the role, she is attractive, finds Harry equally so, demonstrates a predatory and ruthless approach to the hapless Michael Corner and Dean Thomas, is an accomplished liar, a witch of some power, and of course has been possessed by Tom Riddle (though not in the same sense as Bellatrix may have been). She also has the name (according to some translations) of an Arthurian queen famous for her betrayal of the hero. Leah (who is inclined not to believe a word of this, but feels Ginny is worth keeping an eye on) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 22:48:25 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:48:25 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101055 > Brenda wrote: > > Narcissa: Could turn out to be a Metamorphagus like her niece. > > Although I have a personal fantasy that she is already having an > > affair with ESE!Lupin and they both swapping secrets. > > Bren: Oy, Narcissa with half-human? I think she would feel > indignified... Mandy again: But that's the attraction. Every rich man's wife has to have her 'Bit Of Rough' on the side, right? The Lady Chatterly fantasy. Lupin is perfect. Shabby, poor, distinctly working class, and all that pent up animal passion bursting to get out. He's the perfect opposite to Lucius arrogant restraint. OK..Way OT.....Sorry....I need to stop now........... Cheers Mandy From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 22:51:18 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:51:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why is malfoy a prefect? Harry as HB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101056 [Jason writes re Draco as Prefect]: | I guess my question would be, why *wouldn't* he be one? | | We all know he's a little brown noser anyway. He's seemingly a | pretty bright kid with influence over his peers. He's obviously a | better candidate than Crabbe or Goyle. Theo Nott maybe? Nah, he's | not a leader from what I've seen. [Lee]: All true, but surely Draco isn't the brightest of the bunch. I do recall in COS the remark Lucius made in Nocturne Alley about Draco's grades...that if he didn't get better grades he might just end up a thief, etc. I have another awful thought: Lucius bribed Fudge to plead with Dumbledore to make Draco a prefect. Perhaps Lucius knew that Umbridge was going to be at Hogwarts and felt that Draco might be of some use to her/Fudge/Etc.? Cheers, Lee (Shuddering at the thought!) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 12 21:02:16 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:02:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <001101c4502f$af221d30$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101057 | From: Trevor | Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 23:45 PM | I found this slightly irregular as well. The troubling part is that not | only do the kids not focus on their choices for OWL classes nor | receive info | but also the parents do not seem to be involved (not a big deal for Harry | but for the others.). This could just be an omission of the books, which | focus on Harry: who would not receive guidance from the Dursleys anyway. | Alternatively, JKR is perhaps not perfect and could have possibly skipped | this detail. [Lee]: Well, I never approached my mom about career stuff. I guess I sorta told her what I was planning to do and that was that. She was a supportive type; she'd help me with whatever direction I wanted to go so long as it wouldn't harm me. Not being a college person herself, she understood my thoughts on the subject which were that I wasn't interested and wanted to start working. But, like I say, I didn't seek advice from her, nor did she meet with my guidance or career counselor. In fact, it was my "Career Counselor" (and I use the term loosely) who was my problem. Because I stated I wanted to enter the work force as a secretary and had no interest in college, she literally cursed at me and used expletives of which both my mother and I strongly disapproved, and tried to demean me for my choice. Even at 16 years old, I had no problem telling her it was my choice and I didn't think her conduct was professional and befitting a career counselor. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 23:02:54 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:02:54 -0000 Subject: Missing character In-Reply-To: <026301c45028$0ad9b410$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101058 > Alina wrote: > I'd have to say Bellatrix seems the most likely candidate to Evil Temptress. After all, she's beautiful, or was before Azkaban, but something tells me now that she's free, she'll find a way to restore her looks. She reminds me of all the typical Evil Temptresses, like the Witch in Chronicles Of Narnia. I agree, it's not very likely that Harry or any of his friends could be lulled by her into believing she wants to help them and then be betrayed, Mandy here: Why not? After all Edmund was seduced by the White Queen in Narnia. Bellatrix is a powerful witch. Really powerful. She went up against Tonks, Kinsley and Sirius and easily defeated them all, not to mention held of an attack from DD himself! She could easily seduce any one of the boys with the right lure. Ron or Percy with sucess and power. Harry's lure would be access to LV, and Neville, Neville would be a real accomplishment, his lure would be herself. With the right bate. I wouldn't put it beyond her talents. Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 12 23:10:34 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:10:34 -0000 Subject: The Evil Temptress In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101059 > Leah wrote: > I'm sorry not to see ESE Ginny featuring in replies to this post. > While rather young for the role, she is attractive, finds Harry > equally so, demonstrates a predatory and ruthless approach to the > hapless Michael Corner and Dean Thomas, is an accomplished liar, a > witch of some power, and of course has been possessed by Tom Riddle > (though not in the same sense as Bellatrix may have been). She also > has the name (according to some translations) of an Arthurian queen > famous for her betrayal of the hero. Mandy here: Humm, little Ginny Weasey. Interesting. I hadn't thought of her because of her age. Being younger then Harry we'd have to wait for Harry to be in his 7th year for Ginny to be of age, 16, in the story. 16 being the age of consent in the UK is when JK could stir up the sexuality staked with out getting in to too much trouble. I'm not suggesting there is going to be any rampant sex in the story, but for a female character to be seducing the leading male over to the dark side, I imagine it's going to be someone older than Harry. But you never know. Ginny is definitely worth keeping an eye on. Mandy From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 12 23:11:06 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:11:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Liability for Sirius' death Message-ID: <1cb.235fa027.2dfce78a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101060 In a message dated 6/12/2004 6:47:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bethg2 at yahoo.com writes: I think Sirius's death is a tragic accident more than anything else. Sirius didn't get ak'd throwing himself in front of Harry or Remus. Bellatrix didn't actually AK him, it was red light not green. ========== Sherrie here: Just a small point - we don't actually KNOW what color the spell that hit Sirius was - it's not specified. The FIRST spell she threw at him - the one for which he taunted her - is described as a red light; but the color of the second isn't given at all. So we don't know if he was dead BEFORE he fell through the Veil. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 12 23:11:21 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:11:21 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CC1A39.18633.3A6F801@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101061 On 12 Jun 2004 at 20:44, stefaniealexisread wrote: > "stefaniealexisread" wrote: > > If prefects are chosen upon merit, why on earth is Malfoy one? I > > think that's all I have to say. > > > Alright it's me again. When I asked why Malfoy was a prefect there > were a couple of inconsistencies? > > 1) Why would Snape try to be on malfoy's good side when it is clear > he isn't anymore? He's working aginst Voldemort and he revealed that > in the trials years ago which cleared him of being a death eater. That's how we see it - we don't know how the Death Eaters see it. See, we know from statements in the canon, that when Voldemort fell, a significant number of the Death Eaters talked their way out of trouble in various ways - including Lucius Malfoy: "And when You-Know-Who disappeared," said Fred, craning around to look at Harry, "Lucius Malfoy came back saying he'd never meant any of it. Load of dung - Dad reckons he was right in You-Know-Who's inner circle."" (from 'Chamber of Secrets') ""I smell guilt," he said. "There is a stench or guilt upon the air. A second shiver ran around the circle, as though each member of it longed, but did not dare to step back from him. "I see you all, whole and healthy, with your powers intact - such prompt appearances! and I ask myself... why did this band of wizards never come to the aid of their master, to whom they swore eternal loyalty?.... And I answer myself," whispered Voldemort, "they must have believed me broken, they thought I was gone. They slipped back among my enemies, and they pleaded innocence, and ignorance, and bewitchment..." (from 'Goblet of Fire') Lucius may believe that Snape simply did what we know he did - betraying Voldemort just as a way of escaping punishment. He may still believe that Snape is truly onside. > 2) When Cedric Diggory died Malfoy and his crew showed absolutely no > sympathy at the end of book 4 and wouldn't raise their glasses to > Harry. I remember that shocked me because it crossed a line -- it > means that Malfoy is not simply misguided but EVIL. So why appoint a > person who clearly is going to grow up and be a death eater in a > position of power at hogwarts? Especially at a time when Dumbeldore > emphasizes 'unity'. And really if the Slytherins are all like this > why don't they get rid of this house altogether? It just seems to > breed dark magic lovers/muggle haters. Well, I'd disagree that it shows Malfoy is evil. At the end of Goblet of Fire, he's still a child - a lot of people don't see it that way, but I do. He still has time to change - no matter how foul he is now. I knew boys at school who were every bit as foul, IMHO, as Draco Malfoy at the same ages. I was their favourite target - I even had to deal with something akin to the attitudes that Draco shows towards Muggles - because I was at one of the country's most exclusive schools, and in their opinion, the son of a nightwatchman didn't belong there - it was a place for people like them whose father's ran the organisation my father guarded at night (some of them got really confused when I was 15, and Dad was suddenly promoted into a management position at the Commission - but it didn't do anything to change the attitudes of the really foul ones). Some of these boys were *genuinely* foul - in fact, they were worse than Draco. He's an amateur by comparison. Quite seriously. He was nowhere *near* as bad as some of these people at the same age - and believe I remember the age - because at the end of my fifteenth year - the same stage, Harry, Draco, and the others are at at the end of Order of the Phoenix, my father died suddenly - and his death became the spur for some of those boys *worst* and most hideous acts towards me - Draco's attitudes don't even come close. *But* - and here's the point - by the time we finished school, two years later - all but one of those boys had changed. They did change. They grew out of it. Draco is not irredeemable - he still has time to change. Draco is *not* on a path that he can't turn away from. It's not too late for a 15 year old child to change. There's no certainty he will change, of course, either. But it's not impossible. As to why they don't get rid of the House altogether - well, we really don't know if Slytherin is a breeding ground for dark magic lovers and muggle haters. The Slytherins we've seen are certainly like that - but the only ones we've seen from the start of their schooling - Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy - seem to have started out with these attitudes. If they are a universal, I'd say they are more likely to be there when the kids arrive, rather than being created. If the attitudes are there, abolishing the House would simply spread these perverse beliefs around the school. They'd still be there - and the students would have an increased opportunity to 'infect' others. In many ways, the conflict we see between the other Houses and Slytherin may be a good thing - because it makes the students from other Houses less likely to be influenced by the Slytherins. If there is a universal Slytherin poison, the House may concentrate and focus it certainly - but it may also help to confine it. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 12 22:40:59 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:40:59 -0400 Subject: Career advice / werewolves / LV after Harry References: <1087077341.5563.95080.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00d801c450ce$55547560$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101062 >[Lee]: Well, my thinking is there are five days in a school >week, and, IMO, that does leave plenty of time for >teaching arithmancy (which starts in the >second year and continues through third, fourth, fifth >and, possibly sixth), with time to spare. Perhaps there's >another class for those who start the course late...an >alternate class. Or, that might be a reason to seek >advanced training...a tutor. Christina: But most of their classes, especially in 5th year, are double classes taking over 2 hours like double Herbology and Double potions. Many of the classes are taken two - three times a week and the classes go up to dinnertime so they are obviously not on the usual 8:30 - 3pm schedule like in a usual school - at least not in a US school, it may be different in Britain. Maybe there is some type of beginner class though, for older students, and Hermione took Arithmancy because she wanted to take the class and was naturally smart. They are taking maybe 5+ classes all week ranging in time from 1-2 hours each, from maybe 9 or 9:30 am (after breakfast) to right about dinner time, the ones that play Quidditch usually skip dinner to practice, then they are up until after midnight on homework. I don't know that there would be more time to have more classes. I did think it odd that they could choose their own classes, I wasn't able to do that in high school except for a few electives. I've much preferred the way colleges do registration. >Mimi: I've seen several comments in various places >wondering about Lupin transforming into a werewolf in >POA, i.e. why he only transformed when he saw the full >moon, even though the moon was already full and >he should have transformed whether he saw it or not. Christina: This is something that often changes in werewolf lore. In most stories they change on the full moon even if indoors or if it's obscured by clouds. Some stories - such as the movie Van Helsing - have it where the werewolf changes back and forth depending on the moon being visable. There i s one movie my dh - a great lover all werewolf lore - doesn't like because it shows a werewolf being hit by a truck and dying. In his opinion on werewolf lore only a silver bullet can kill a werewolf, not a speeding truck. But the lore will change with time and with various authors / directors putting their spin on the story to make it fit their vision. >Barbara:Also, has anyone considered that VM knew of >the prophecy and wasn't actually after the Potters but >Harry back GH? I've been reading you all talking about >a prophecy VM wanted to find out about in OotP, but >again, I was thinking, doesn't he go after Harry and Lily >actually dies trying to save him? Why go after a baby, >unless just out of cruelty to hurt his parents? Christina: Yes, I believe he was after Harry due the partial prophecy he overheard, not necessarily James and Lily, because he told Lily to stand aside so he could get to Harry. He killed them because they were in his way. Christina in GA From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 12 23:26:57 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:26:57 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Career advice / werewolves / LV after Harry In-Reply-To: <00d801c450ce$55547560$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <40CC1DE1.18402.3B54278@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101063 On 12 Jun 2004 at 18:40, Christina in GA wrote: > I did think it odd that they could choose their own classes, I wasn't able > to do that in high school except for a few electives. I've much preferred > the way colleges do registration. Again, there is a wide range of ways of doing this depending on where you are in the world. From what I've heard from Americans, subject choice in American High Schools tends to be fairly limited compared to a lot of other countries. Where I am (Victoria, Australia) we had no elective subjects until Year 9 (when you are 14 years old). Then at my school, you had six core subjects and you could choose three electives (which tended to be languages other than English, or Arts type subjects). Same applied in Year 10. In Year 11, out of 7 subjects we could choose 4 (at most schools it was 5 but my school required us to take Religion and Society as one of our subjects). In Year 12, out of 5 subjects, you could choose 4 (English being the only compulsory subject). I'm not sure precisely how the UK works - but in a lot of places around the world, high school students do get a *lot* of choice. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 22:51:55 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (Stefanie) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:51:55 -0000 Subject: Other Witnesses (was Snape's Liability/Snape's Loyalty (-long-) ) In-Reply-To: <8e.d239c8c.2dfa2f63@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101064 Stefanie writes: > My trust in Snape is a bit rocky. I want to believe that he's > loyal because Dumbledore does and have it as cut and dry as > that... > Jo Ann: > I think we do have one other character witness for Snape, albeit > a silent and circumstantial one: Professor McGonagall. > > Reading through the books, it occured to me that though Minerva-- > who seems a good judge of character--rarely speaks out plainly > against a fellow teacher, Harry sees plenty of evidence when she > doesn't like, respect, or trust a colleague. > > However, we also see that she's quite willing to take the side of > someone she considers a foolish fraud against someone she feels is > a greater evil (i.e., when Umbridge went to sack Trelawney in OotP.) > > Throughout the stories, I remember a few situations where the House > rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin has come into play between > McGonagall and Snape, but I don't recall that she has ever said or > done anything to indicate that she doubts his loyalty or trustworthiness, > or even that she holds a particularly strong dislike for him. And I > doubt that knowing DD trusts the man would stop her from expressing > her own opinion, in one way or another. Stefanie: McGonagall does indeed make a stand against Umbridge, but Umbridge has been appointed by the MoM. Teachers who Dumbledore has appointed, such as Trelawney, she may be shown to disagree with, but she hasn't taken a stand against any except Umbridge who was not directly appointed by Dumbledore, but forced into the school by the Ministry. Umbridge doesn't have a DD appointment to back up any reasoning for her being hired. I have seen no evidence in the books that McGonagall did anything but disapprove of a DD-appointed teacher's way of going about things. As for her trusting her fellow DD-appointed teachers, in PS, when the trio sees her in the hallway before attempting to enter the trapdoor, they alert her to their suspicions that someone may be trying to get the stone. From her knowledge, the only people in that are in the school are students and DD-appointed teachers. If she *really* didn't trust Quirrell, would she have brushed off the notion so quickly? The trio has just shown that they were able to figure out about a top secret item such as the stone even being in the school...if she had any doubts about her fellow teachers, I think she would have given their accusations just a slight touch of a second thought. >From this, I believe, that if Snape isn't trustworthy, McGonagall will not be the one to tip us off to this: she has shown that she will trust and respect DD's teacher appointments regardless of her personal feelings towards the teacher. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jun 12 23:01:04 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:01:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101065 Hickengruendler wrote: >I think, that Neville is in many ways Harry's mirror. I agree completely with this analysis of Neville as a reflective 'twin' of Harry. One point struck me concerning Neville remaining at Hogwarts to teach. As long as we've known Harry, he's continually being forced out of places of safety; Godric's Hollow, Privet Drive every summer, the dormitories and classrooms of Hogwarts into the COS, the Shrieking Shack, the Forbidden Forest, the MOM,etc etc, from The Burrow to Knockturn Alley, from Grimmauld Place to the MOM and so on. Neville remains behind closed doors. Uncle Algy threw him from the window, but he bounced back. In PS/SS, he tried to keep the trio within Gryffindor Tower. In OOTP, the trio roam St Mungo's, while Neville is concealed behind the flowery curtains. Looked at this way, Neville remaining to teach at Hogwarts makes perfect sense. I do wonder though, because at the end of OOTP, both Harry and Neville were at the MOM. Is the pendulum going to swing the other way? Will Harry return in the end to his first safe place, Godric's Hollow, while Neville is out and about dealing with Bellatrix? Leah From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 23:40:31 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy & Voldemort (was Question re "little hint" in Bk 2 and Long Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040612234031.74372.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101066 --- ~Maitresse wrote: > This is my first time posting here, so here goes. I > was rereading > CoS and I saw something I didn't remember before... > > Chapter Four, page 58 > they found Percy, deeply immersed in a small and > boring book called > Prefects Who Gained Power. > Okay, this is often brought up at a point in favor of Percy's treachery. But, in COS, Percy says he is going to buy a new quill. But when they find him it is not in quill shop (assumably the same place that sold Hermione parchment would be the logical place to sell quills) but in a junk shop. He tries to get them to go away. I really do believe that he is meeting Penelope in an out-of-the-way place and then picks up the book and pretends to be reading when they show up. Just as Penelope is responsible for his other strange behavior in the book, she's responsible for this one too. Secondly, regarding what Ron says. Ron is not usually right. When he makes predictions that are right, he's ususally joking. When he's serious, he usually suspects the wrong person. Ron also has a tendancy to say/believe bad things about people he doesn't like (or is angry/ jelous with) without cause: Snape (post PS) and Krum are the first to come to mind. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Jun 12 23:51:49 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:51:49 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Give the boy credit where credit's due. Aside from Snape needing to > keep Lucius happy I have a couple of other good reasons: > > Draco is an exceptionally good student. He would be top student in > their year if Hermione hadn't beaten him to it. Remember Lucius > berating Draco in Knockturn Ally for coming second to a mudblood. We > know Hermione was top, so that puts Draco in second place. A far > better student than either Harry or Ron. You know, I've seen this idea of Malfoy being an exceptional student before and I still don't see how Lucius' remark can be interpreted as Draco being second only to Hermione academically. "'I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam,' snapped Mr. Malfoy." COS, Chap. 4. The message here (to me) is that Malfoy Sr. is disgusted that even a "mudblood" like Hermione is able to outscore Draco in every exam; not that *only* Hermione beat him. After all you could say that she beat Harry or Ron or Neville or anyone else, and it would be equally true because she out-scored everyone. Later in the scene, Lucius states that Draco may only be fit to be a thief or plunderer if his marks don't pick up. Frankly, after managing to get himself cursed by Harry & Co. on the Hogwarts Express for two years in a row, he seems like a real dim bulb to me ;-). Mandy continued: > Draco is perfect Prefect material. Yes he's a Slytherin and a > complete wanker, but 20 years ago DD believed enough in another > complete wanker to make him head boy. Mr James Potter. Granted, we've seem James at less than his best in the pensive scene but he's not a complete wanker. He did save Snape's life and gave his own fighting against Voldemort which is pretty non-wankish, IMO. Jo Serenadust From lynns at wowway.com Sat Jun 12 23:31:59 2004 From: lynns at wowway.com (LYNN) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:31:59 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Malfoy the prefect Message-ID: <40CB926F.000009.03620@YOUR-W04GTXLD67> No: HPFGUIDX 101068 magicmom2001: Lupin said he was prefect (bk 5) hopefully to influence his friends. Perhaps Malfoy is chosen for his leadership abilities. Whether he chooses for good or bad, he is a strong leader. Also, I guess to be HB/HG, you don't have to be a prefect. Lily & James had the honor although James was never a prefect. Nice talking to you Magicmom2001 From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 00:17:09 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:17:09 -0000 Subject: Liability for Sirius' death In-Reply-To: <1cb.235fa027.2dfce78a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101069 > Sherrie here: > > Just a small point - we don't actually KNOW what color the spell that hit > Sirius was - it's not specified. The FIRST spell she threw at him - the one for > which he taunted her - is described as a red light; but the color of the > second isn't given at all. So we don't know if he was dead BEFORE he fell through > the Veil. > > Sherrie Snow: You're right, also, we cant be sure whether or not Sirius is dead but if he wasn't when he went through the veil at least we know that he still has his wand for whatever might await him. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 13 02:59:28 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:59:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Power Vs Voldys Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101070 | From: jodel_from_aol | Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 17:52 PM [jodel writes]: | In fact, Harry's magical advantages so far appear to only kick into | gear when he is dealing directly with Voldemort, and those advantages | have been severly undercut now that Voldemort is back on the physical | plane and aware of the link. [Lee]: Well, that Patronus in POA had nothing to do with LV. He realized he was the one who'd have to save his friends and himself and did it. Same can be said with the dementors in the alley. And, according to Lupin and everyone else, a corporeal Patronus is extremely advanced and he did get extra credit in his DADA OWL. :-) [jodel]: | I also suspect that Dumbledore et. als. were going at the problem from | the wrong direction in OotP by trying to teach Harry to simply block | the link. What needs to happen is for Harry to learn to *control* the | link. He needs to learn to be as much of a headache to Voldemort as | Voldemort is to him. [Lee]: Now that's an interesting thought...send confusing images and alien emotions...hmm--cool! And if LV were to have hair on his head (which, unfortunately, he doesn't), after being the recipient of such maddening emotions and images and tearing said hair out...could we call him........Lord Baldy-Molt? Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 13 03:05:20 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:05:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101071 In a message dated 6/12/04 3:27:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bowlwoman at yahoo.com writes: >We know that Petunia had met James, because she mentions he told her about the Dementors guarding Askaban. Maybe James and Lily stopped off to see Petunia when they were on the run and VM followed them there? bowlwoman< I disagree that Petunia knows James. She only says that awful boy in OOTP, Harry says if it was his father than say so. We have no proof that it was James. I would speculate that maybe it was Remus, because he left the letter to the Dursleys and wrote it in the kitchen. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fandulin at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 03:31:24 2004 From: fandulin at yahoo.com (fandulin) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 03:31:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power Vs Voldys Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: jodel_from_aol > | Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 17:52 PM > [jodel writes]: > | In fact, Harry's magical advantages so far appear to only kick into > | gear when he is dealing directly with Voldemort, and those advantages > | have been severly undercut now that Voldemort is back on the physical > | plane and aware of the link. I agree, in that I don't believe the additional powers JKR has alluded to will help Harry deal directly with Voldemort. I think they will help him overcome the challenges of the next two books, and aid him in the eventual downfall of Voldemort, but as far as them going mano y mano.....If anyone could do that, it would be Dumbledore, not a 17 year old wizard. I'm betting Harry eventually, when he's old and grey (if he survives that is) will achieve something along the lines of Dumbledore level power, but in the meantime, (and I hope i'm not being presumptious in predicting what will happen in the end, especially as JKR loves to throw curveballs) but.....It occurs to me that Dumbledores main mission in life, aside from headmastering Hogwarts, has been to oppose those threatening the wizarding world, first Grindalwald, and now and especially, Voldemort. The prophecy makes clear that the universe isn't going to accept Voldemort and Harry both walking the earth, but I believe the one who's actually going to face him down directly in the end is Dumbledore, probably buying Harry time to do whatever it is he must do to kill Voldemort. Dumbledore dies, taking many Death Eaters with him, buying time for Harry, probably with the aid of Ron and Hermione to "go 'round the back way" as it were. Hogwarts is left in the able hands of McGonagall, and the wizarding world can breath a sigh of relief, but it's a bittersweet victory, in that the greatest wizard of the modern age is lost. Any takers? Fan Dulin, who's trying to think of a good Ron thread to start. Ron rocks! From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sun Jun 13 03:52:35 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:52:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101073 Just MHO, but I think that, right now, as the HP tales are happening, Slytherin is evil. This list has, in the past, discussed to death the low number of students in Harry's Hogwarts. The general consensus is that it is due to the first Voldy war. But, that cuts both ways. If the good side lost people, so did the bad. And many on both sides seem to have chosen not to bring children into the world...Bella & Ras don't seem to have reproduced, for example. [Should I say small loss?] And now as the children of the survivors are of age and heading to school, those forces are regrouping. The DE's kids are sticking together, as they've been brought up to do, as are the other side's children, as well. Then we have the Sorting Hat. Which controls where those children are placed. I think it's been deliberately placing the 'junior DEs' in Slytherin, with or without DD's knowledge. When Harry turned up and it recognized the unique qualities in him., it tried to influence him towards Slytherin. I don't think it ever intended to put Harry in Slytherin, but it did want him to realize that 'Evil' as such wasn't a requirement. The Hat's commentary, that Harry would have done well in Slytherin, may well be the 'little thing' JKR referred to as becoming a big thing. It is time for the Houses to unite and Harry, the Griffindor with Slytherin qualities, MUST lead the way. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 13 04:37:00 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:37:00 -0400 Subject: Why Characters Do What--No Fault--Long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101075 Just to put some things on what I hope will be a more level playing field, let's examine some of the HP characters and their life difficulties. In this way, maybe we can see their motivations for their actions. I don't expect everyone to agree, but this is my "fun" for the night. :-) Harry: Orphaned, living with an abusive and intolerant aunt and uncle and their son (who can do no wrong in their eyes). So Harry is subjected to three people who hate his existence, knows nothing of his biological family, is forced to wear his cousin's over-large hand-me-downs, probably only gets taken to a doctor when it's absolutely necessary, is made to eat cold canned soup or bread and a little hunk of cheese while the rest of the family has a more normal dinner and said cold canned soup is shoved through a flap in his locked door, all this as punishment for something which isn't his fault...pretty rough. Then, he suddenly has a whole new world opened to him...the wizarding world; he starts learning about his mom and dad and, unfortunately, about the evil that took them from him. And he suddenly has friends! Decent, nice people who really like him and help him to deal with the other startling revelation--he's famous in the wizarding world because he lived through an AK and destroyed, at least for a while, the power of LV. He also discovers he has money and can buy real clothes that fit him to order and he can buy candy and goodies to eat and, more importantly, to share. And sharing was a good feeling. So, even though he's been bullied and beaten down and made to feel very small by the Dursleys, he's still big enough to want to share, feel good about it, and continue to want to give of himself to his friends in any way he can. Having a lack of love given doesn't quell his inner ability to love, and he loves deeply. I'm not talking romantic love, here; I'm talking the kind of love that responds to love given. Does that make sense? But right now he's got LV intruding on his brain, he's had very vague answers to deep and burning questions, it's hurtful that his friends and those he looks to for support can't/won't give it...and being told he's a liar when he's not... Put all that together along with teen changes and Harry's actions are rather typical and understandable. Not always what we might want to see, but understandable when one brings in the whole picture. Ron--He's got a great home life in that he has parents who love their children very much and would sacrifice whatever it takes to be sure they have a decent education. Poor as Ron's family is, there's always room for one more at their table. But, the key word is "poor." The Weasleys are just making ends meet, and Ron, too, has to deal with hand-me-down stuff...robes, wand, etc. from older brothers. And, occasionally, his resentment of this flares. He feels out of place when beside the other students and all their newer-looking robes, books, etc. As much as he's Harry's friend, I'm sure he resents Harry's fortune and fame. But Ron also has, perhaps, a bit of pride which leads to embarrassment at being given expensive gifts, etc. Yet, Ron is a good friend and stands beside Harry as best he can. I almost see Ron as Samwise, if anyone can relate to that analogy. Sometimes, as in GOF, his resentment comes out full-force. Whether he truly believed that Harry somehow hoodwinked the Goblet, I don't think he did, but his resentment, perhaps, made him believe it. However, when push came to shove, and Ron realized Harry's danger, whatever he may have convinced himself to believe to justify his anger was quickly quashed and the real Ron, the friend, came out of hiding. Hermione--She, too, has what seems to be a great home life; her parents' support, and, as Dentists, they probably make enough money to handle the expenses of their daughter's most unusual school. However, I don't recall anywhere mentioning brothers and sisters, so Hermione may be an only child. This can be tough and lonely, plus she's now straddling the fence between the muggle world and wizard world. When she's with her parents, how much can she share about her life in the WW? Did her parents know about her bringing Rita Skeeter home? :-) Doesn't seem like such a rough life, but it can be, especially trying to keep everything in balance, I think. And, it's possible that Hermione doesn't have any muggle friends which is why making friends was so rough the first year at Hogwarts. She's a bookish young lady and used to, possibly, having things her own way, being an only child. She probably comes from a very law-abiding household, hence her disapproval of rule-breaking; either that, or she's so desperate to prove herself as good as any other wizard student in Hogwarts that she just overcompensates to the extreme. And book-learning about Hogwarts and the wizarding world is a whole lot different than being physically a part of it. Snape--His life is vague, but we know a couple of things: 1) He holds grudges...very deeply; 2) He crossed over to the dark side and returned, but not unscathed. Though he's technically an adult, that grudge-holding thing is going to keep him from moving emotionally forward and reaching his real potential, IMHO. He still hasn't finished learning what he can be and how to let go and so his choices are not always good ones. LV--Also orphaned and abandoned, as he had no relative--even an abusive one--that wanted him. So he lived in an orphanage and we don't know the conditions of that place; but I'd guess that kids aren't given a whole lot of TLC and have to learn to rely on themselves or their friends, etc. So, the WW was the one place where Tom could feel in some control; he could rise up and become a prefect and then Head Boy and be the one to control things, in his POV. But why stop there? Here in the WW he had learned the most wonderful things! He could bring them out with him and get rid of the family that had treated him so shamefully. And, that would only be the beginning, in his POV again. He could rule the world! I could go on and on with these analyses, but enough for now. Guess what I'm trying to emphasize is that yes, one might be to some extent a product of one's environment, but there's also that matter of choice. We can choose to be miserable or we can choose to seek out some good in the dregs life has dealt. Guess those who love Harry feel that he's trying to hold on to that which is good. those who love Snape can empathize with the things he suffered at the hands of bullies in school, etc., realize he is a complex character who is still growing and may cut him some--uh--growth slack. Personally, I don't adore Snape; I can understand (if I take the time) what makes him tick; I could wish for a strap to give him a little whomp from time to time. I can also wish for the same strap to give Harry, Ron, Hermione a little whomp from time to time as well. As one poster said, the characters are an awful lot like people we knew in school or know now. Our likes and dislikes are colored by those images and not everyone is going to like the same people for the same reasons. That's okay, Folks! Let's just agree to disagree, respecting the opinions of the ones with whom we may disagree. I call it constructive disagreement. :-) Love you all, and I've left a box of Honeydukes Sampler on Flitwick's desk. :-) Eat up! Cheers, Lee :-) (Who's got the butterbeer?) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 06:10:34 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 06:10:34 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > It was argued that Sirius had no obligation to show kindness > toward Kreacher because Kreacher's loyalty was doubtful. But > Sirius owed something to Kreacher as his master. As Tolkien > put it, the servant has a claim on the master for service, even > service in fear. Kreacher, however, owed Sirius no loyalty except > that forced on him by the House Elf enchantments. He did owe > loyalty to Mrs. Black, based on affection alone, since she was > dead. And Sirius trampled on it. Just a small point here: when exactly did Kreacher serve Sirius, fearfully or otherwise? He never did anything that he was supposed to do - clean, cook, etc. All he did was skulk around, get in the way, insult Sirius and his guests and generally make a complete nuisance of himself. More than that, he did things against Sirius' wishes - such as take away various items that Sirius wanted destroyed. Naama From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 06:39:24 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 06:39:24 -0000 Subject: Kreacher goes over the wall & the Charmed House In-Reply-To: <3F11B8BE.4020503@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ravenclaw Black wrote: > > if Harry had tried to tell Umbridge where Sirius was, would he > > magically forget the location a split second before he attempted to > > speak the words? Would the Fidelus Charm, make his mind go blank on > > that subject, if someone tried to probe his mind with Legilimency; > > would those memories be force blank by the Charm? > > > The way I took the Fidelus charm is this: Harry could have told > Umbridge the location of the house. She could have gone there her self, > BUT she would not be able to find it. If I remember, there was a > passage in the book when someone says as long as the potters' secret > keeper remained quiet, Voldmort could have looked in the window of their > living room and not seen them eating dinner. I would guess that > Umbridge could even see OP memebers comming and going from the house and > still not been able to figure out exctally where they were comming and > going from Another post from long ago (I'm making some progress while being bored at 2:35AM) Anyway, I always imgagined it going something like this... When Umbridge or anyone else forces Harry to reveal Sirius' whereabouts, Harry says Number 12 Grimmauld Place! To which Umbridge replies, Number What? Where? I imagine her hearing the words but the words having no meaning to her. Number Who? What place?! Number 12 Grimmauld place!! Whose place? This place?! Make sense Potter! Have you been given a babbling beverage?! Other times I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello, Who's on First? Who? Exactly. Jason From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 06:51:23 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 06:51:23 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <474126F8.4A27D182.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > > Why does everyone underestimate teenagers? Why does the fact that Harry's 15 give him the right to act like a little berk? (Wow...I just used berk in a sentence...) Severus is most definitely a giant git. (Wow...git...) And everyone jumps down his throad when he does something wrong. But for some reason, every time Harry does something bad, it's "Harry is 15! Severus isn't 15!" What does age have to do with it? Age is no excuse AT ALL. Especially when you know what Harry knows. Severus knows too, but isn't Harry our hero? (That be sarcasm...I'm not a big Harry fan at all...) > > It's well established that Severus cannot grow up. He needs a psychiatrist and some therapy. Look at his situation, he was tormented by people in his youth and he can't get over it -- happens to lots of people. I graduated high school last week, and I still hate peoplel who pulled their own prank on me in fifth grade. The weak cannot take things like that. When Severus went on his rant about people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, IMO, that was about him. Actually, I believe we have yet to meet a real adult in the HP series. > Severus does wrong, therefore he needs psychiatric help; Harry does wrong, and he is therefore to blame. This, you say, because Severus has had a difficult emotional past. Hmmm. And Harry, of course, has had a loving, warm and cuddly childhood, so he should know better?! Have to love your logic here. Regarding age. Allow me a moment of patronage here. You say you have graduated last week - you are eighteen years old, or thereabouts, then. What can you possibly know about the difference between being fifteen and thirty five years old? From someone who's been in both these places, believe me, there is a *huge* difference - in how you understand the world, how you understand yourself, your ability for compassion and empathy, your self control, complexity of thought. Fifteen and thirty five are two very different modes of being, in my experience, at least. So, yes. Harry certainly carries less responsibility than Snape simply due to the difference in their ages. (There are other reasons why, in that specific situation, Snape was more responsible than Harry to the outcome: he was the one with authority, and he was the one with knowledge, including knowing how much Harry didn't know.) Naama, sucked into the blame game From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 13 08:47:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:47:07 -0000 Subject: A Question about name-calling In-Reply-To: <20040612212722.26999.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Meri - who thinks we should have an on-list euphamism > > for "mudblood". "Differently parented" perhaps? > > Annemehr: > > No euphemism needed -- they're called "Muggle-born." > > > Or the politically correct - "Parentally Challenged" > > moonmyyst Tut, tut. The politically correct term is "Differently Ancestored" (See 88907) Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 13 10:05:11 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:05:11 -0000 Subject: Other Witnesses (was Snape's Liability/Snape's Loyalty (-long-) ) In-Reply-To: <8e.d239c8c.2dfa2f63@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > In a message dated 06/10/2004 4:59:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stefanie > writes: > My trust in Snape is a bit rocky. I want to believe that he's loyal > because Dumbledore does and have it as cut and dry as that...but > then again, Dumbledore trusted Quirrel who had LV growing out of the > back of his head, Lockheart who ended up to be the worlds biggest > fraud, and fake!Moody who, well, was fake. > --- > Ah, loyalty. Snape's loyal all right, but loyal to what? One of the joys of the books is that if you are prepared to delve a bit deeper than in an average fantasy, you can come up with some dilemmas that touch on fundamental concepts - good/evil, justice/injustice, loyalty/betrayal, right/wrong. Quite frequently we have been presented with a blurring of the borders and the divisions have not been clear-cut. Loyalty can come in all sorts of flavours - to an abstract principle, to friends or individuals or to a stated goal or aim. Sometimes there can be conflicts of interest and loyalty will be conditional rather than absolute. There will be a hierarcy of loyalty where one will take precedence over others pulling in a different direction. This is where Snape is IMO. We never hear him vaporing on about good and evil, something that might be expected if he had repudiated the DE philosophy. His natural friends and allies are not the other members of the Order, they're ex-Slytherins and active DEs like Malfoy. What he does seem to be loyal to is the plan to destroy Voldemort. That over-rides everything else and this is probably what DD understands - Snape can be trusted in this, he is committed to the downfall of Voldy, he will do what is necessary, he will cooperate fully. The "why' of this will be one of the great revelations, I think. All sorts of theories have been promoted, but the odds are that the motivation is intensely personal, he has a massive grudge and nothing less than seeing Voldy in the dust will assuage it. It verges on an obsession. Snape and DD have the same goal, but for different reasons. With DD it's a belief in opposing evil as a matter of principle; not Snape, he couldn't give a damn about the DEs, they're not his concern. That's possibly why he wasn't in the Ministry fight; he couldn't be trusted, or trust himself, to fight in alliance with people he didn't particularly like against his natural associates. He has a very limited and specific agenda, best not to strain it too far. This all adds to the tension, of course - could Snape revert to type, if say, Harry pushed him too far and increased Snape's hatred of the name 'Potter' to critical levels? That would be really fascinating to read. Kneasy From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 13 10:50:36 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:50:36 -0000 Subject: Other witnesses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101081 Kneasy wrote: >That's possibly why he (Snape) wasn't in the Ministry fight: he >couldn't be trusted or trust himself, to fight in alliance with >people he didn't particularly like against his natural associates. Not to mention a fat lot of spying he would be able to do, having once openly shown himself to be fighting on the side ofthe Order. Sylvia (hating to disagreewith Kneasy, who is usually sooooo right.) From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Sun Jun 13 03:51:27 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:51:27 +1000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101082 Batchevra wrote: > I disagree that Petunia knows James. She only says that awful boy > in OOTP, Harry says if it was his father than say so. We have no > proof that it was James. I would speculate that maybe it was Remus, > because he left the letter to the Dursleys and wrote it in the kitchen. Of course if V or P don't want anything to do with Magic, the fact that they refer to "your lot", "his kind", "your kind of people", etc couldn't possibly meant that P is trying to not even mention Harry's parents. Particularly since P does mention James quite often in the summer holidays periods of the books, just not directly by name, but rather through a euphemism like those above. Bill -- Bill Cooney Original Music for Film, Television, Theatre and Multimedia From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 13 04:07:27 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:07:27 -0400 Subject: JKR mistake or do I misunderstand? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101083 Was Sirius definitely in Gryffindor when he was at Hogwarts? Because there is that infamous quote of Hagrid's (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) that there wasn't a wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. And if he (and the rest of the WW) thought Sirius went bad, why would he have said it? So have I missed mention of him being in Slytherin, or did JKR write an inconsistency? And was Pettigrew in Gryffindor or Slytherin, because the same thing would apply to him for real (although after the fact, since Hagrid didn't know he went bad when he said it). Barbara bd-bear http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 07:00:26 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 07:00:26 -0000 Subject: Strange boy at Riddle Manor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101084 Excuse me for not having GoF to hand for precise quotes - I've loaned it out - but I'm confused about Riddle/Voldemort's chronology and family history. In particular, who are the three Riddle family members that Frank Bryce is suspected of killing at the start of GoF? - the maid finds the parents and their "grown-up son" dead, and Frank is suspected but never charged. His only statement is that at the time of their deaths he saw a strange pale teenager with dark hair. So who are these 3 Riddles in Voldemort's chronology (since I thought he was abandoned by his father, and his witch mother died and left him to be brought up an orphan)? Also, who was the teenager Frank saw? Was it Tom Riddle? Or Harry using a time-turner from Books 6/7? I don't believe this has been explained, but apologies if it has. Burno From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 11:41:15 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:41:15 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101085 Stefanie wrote: > I don't think this quote indicates DD knew LV could put *false* > visions in Harry's mind...I believe, however, that it shows the > gravity of the situation at hand. DD knew that Harry could be used, > and the effects of this were quite horribly shown in Arthur > Weasley's attack. DD, as well as, I believe, Snape knew from > Arthur's attack just how lethally LV could use Harry... > > Snape, with this information, seemed to have put his pride, and > hatred of James, above the well being of ALL of the Order members -- > that is by no means excusable...whether Harry did or did not > practice, whether his pride was wounded with the exposition of the > Pensieve scene, Snape KNEW that in Voldemort's first attempt at > using Harry through something else, he had been able to achieve a > direct attack. If he really cared for the safety of the Order, that > would be a more pressing issue than a "schoolboy grudge." Del is confused : I'm not sure I understanD you. What do you mean when you say that LV used Harry ? During the attack on Arthur Weasley, Harry was only a witness of some kind, he didn't do anything, didn't provide any information or whatever. So how do you see that LV used him during this attack ? As far as Snape knew, the greatest danger Harry could put the Order in was if LV gained some knowledge about the Order's plans through Harry. But since Harry didn't know much anyway, the danger wasn't that bad. There was also a remote possiblity that LV might try and take over Harry completely, but the chances of his success were very small indeed. Del From melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 13 08:25:02 2004 From: melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au (melodiousmonkey) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:25:02 -0000 Subject: Why Characters Do What--No Fault--Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101086 Lee wrote: > Just to put some things on what I hope will be a more level playing > field, let's examine some of the HP characters and their life > difficulties. In this way, maybe we can see their motivations for > their actions. > > Hermione--She, too, has what seems to be a great home life; her > parents' support, and, as Dentists, they probably make enough money > to handle the expenses of their daughter's most unusual school. > However, I don't recall anywhere mentioning brothers and sisters, so > Hermione may be an only child. This can be tough and lonely, plus > she's now straddling the fence between the muggle world and wizard > world. When she's with her parents, how much can she share about her > life in the WW? Good post! Just one quick comment you might find interesting - JK said in an interview (I forget which one) that she'd always imagined Hermione having a younger sister, but the sister never made an appearance and JK feels it might be too late now. I suppose Hermione's sister still played a part in the way JK shaped Hermione as a character. JK has also said that some of her younger self is in Hermione, and JK has a younger sister..so I kind of imagine Hermione as having a sibling around in the long summer break, even though she's never made it into the book. Monkey From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sun Jun 13 12:15:17 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:15:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange boy at Riddle Manor Message-ID: <1e0.22ff3bf3.2dfd9f55@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101087 In a message dated 6/13/2004 7:39:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, kirklander368 at hotmail.com writes: > So who are these 3 Riddles in Voldemort's chronology (since I thought > he was abandoned by his father, and his witch mother died and left > him to be brought up an orphan)? the three dead Riddles are Tom's dad [the grown son] and his grandparents. And, yes, Tom/Voldie is the [very] strange boy. At least, that's the generally accepted theory. I believe that one of JKR's interviews confirmed that, but I don't recall exactly. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Sun Jun 13 12:38:57 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:38:57 -0000 Subject: What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101088 Pippin > > Which brings me to my main point. David gives me far too much > credit. I did not invent the ambiguities surrounding the character > of Remus Lupin. JKR did that. All I did was catalogue them -- > and suggest a possible explanation. It seems to me that in > Lupin's case the subversive reading is to deny that the > ambiguities exist or to claim that they are accidental. > > The desire to see any group of characters as simply good or > simply evil is thwarted by the books themselves, it seems to me. > There is no litmus test for Voldemortism, except Voldemortism > itself. Yes, it was dreadful that the Slytherins let Draco shun > Hermione, and that they were willing to accept help from > someone whom they knew might be allied with Voldemort just to > get new brooms for the Quidditch team--but then JKR showed > that the Gryffindors were willing to let Harry and Ron do the > same thing for the sake of a Firebolt. Heaven knows what they > would have done for seven! > > It may be a subversive reading not to assume that Slytherin > prejudice is inherently more culpable because it is racist. But > then again JKR was careful to choose qualities for the other > Houses that have also been associated with campaigns of > extermination against the Other. The Inquisition was carried out > in the name of chivalry, the Nazis tried to exterminate the > mentally inferior even before they went after the Jews, and the > original Reign of Terror was conducted in the name of liberty, > equality and brotherhood. > > Have we been shown members of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or > Hufflepuff who might respond to a gospel of hate? We have. As > for the Chamber of Secrets, the Room of Requirement is just as > scary. Wonder what would happen if you went in there and > asked for a library of Dark Arts manuals and a monster that > would obey your commands? > > Pippin Now Olivier Hum, I don't think you can get away with that so easily Pippin. Lupin might be evil, he might turn out completely, relentlessly evil, I grant you that, but saying it is the natural non subservive way to read the HP books seems a bit too stretched. I would be more than willing to make my point a little clearer, but I need some more times. For now, I'll just restate something I already wrote: of course Lupin is ambiguous in PoA, the whole book is designed to prepare the shock of Lupin embracing Sirius in the Shack. Hence the "You heard James", hence the Sneakoscope, hence the "wary" eyes and the "lazy" wand movement. But once this authorial intent has been used in the Shack, I fail to discern ambiguity in OoP. But I'll come back to that later. As for your historical parallels, I am not sure I'm convinced yet. Inquisition was not in the name of chivalry but on the contrary an attempt of the Church to seize power over chivalry. But I'm drifting away from topic. And for now I must go vote. Olivier, coming back soon From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 13 12:44:43 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:44:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange boy at Riddle Manor Message-ID: <129.43c68b47.2dfda63b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101089 In a message dated 6/13/2004 7:39:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kirklander368 at hotmail.com writes: Excuse me for not having GoF to hand for precise quotes - I've loaned it out - but I'm confused about Riddle/Voldemort's chronology and family history. In particular, who are the three Riddle family members that Frank Bryce is suspected of killing at the start of GoF? - the maid finds the parents and their "grown-up son" dead, and Frank is suspected but never charged. His only statement is that at the time of their deaths he saw a strange pale teenager with dark hair. So who are these 3 Riddles in Voldemort's chronology (since I thought he was abandoned by his father, and his witch mother died and left him to be brought up an orphan)? ========================== Sherrie here: The three corpses are Tom Riddle, St. - Moldy Voldie's dear, sweet dad - and his parents. The pale teen is most probably Tom Riddle, Jr. - since he's seen earlier than the murders occurred, he was probably, as they say, "casing the joint". Sherrie (who truly does NOT believe in "Time-Turner Harry") "Give me a reason - I BEG you." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 13:16:05 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:16:05 -0000 Subject: What if DD dies in 6 or early 7 & Harry gets a hold of the penseive. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101090 vmonte here: I was just wondering what would happen if DD were killed and Harry confiscated the penseive (or better yet if Ron inherited the penseive filled with DD's memories). Harry has already seen this gadget in 2 books, I'm sure it's going to come back. If DD is grouping and sorting his memories to find links, one of the children might view older memories that will make them suspicious. What if the kids see themselves in the past--running around like in PoA. They may need to go back just to complete their time-line role. Ron has not been involved with time-travel. Do you think JKR has done this on purpose? If Ron=DD then she might not want to include him in anything that might give his future role away. I also find it curious that Ron (& Hermione for that matter) have not even met Voldemort like Harry and Ginny have. They are sure to meet him in the next 2 books. I still think that time-travel will happen. And it maybe due to what the kids see in the penseive. I don't think however that James or Lily history will change. The kid's time-travel may be what makes GH happen the way it did. Also, if it's not Harry's voice at GH it may some other time-traveler (Ron?). I believe that James and Lily are both dead. They both came out of Voldemort's wand. All I'm suggesting is that James was killed before Lily (could be hours, minutes, or days). Voldemort is responsible for both their deaths. Now, I cannot tell you exactly what happened because I'm not JKR. But James may have been out of the house when he was killed. He could have been running after Lupin who was changing into a werewolf, he could have gone looking for Voldemort--anything! And about 18-year-old Harry... He could have survived the GH attack. As I mentioned before he may die, and then be revived by Snape, or someone else. Maybe Harry is taken to that "love room," or whatever that place is, and he is reborn--whatever. Time-travel is possible, it has already happened. JKR likes to introduce her ideas slowly into her books. *** I hate time-travel stories believe it or not. *** But I think I would be angrier if JKR had never mentioned time-travel in book 3, and then threw it at us in book 7. And Time-travel can be done without the kids losing time in the present. For example: In the PoA book Harry and Hermione go back in time, do what they have to do, and then come back to the same moment in time from which they left. Harry may come back to the present to finish fighting present day Voldemort. If he doesn't, maybe the future Voldemort will follow Harry back to GH. Maybe the series will end where it started--THE NIGHT AT GODRIC'S HOLLOW. As I've mentioned before, one thing that I've noticed in all the books is that JKR likes to trick us into believing we are seeing one thing but then shows us how we've been fooled. Mistaken identity is throughout the books. There is Crouch as Moody, Ron and Harry as Crab and Goyle, PoA Harry who believes he is seeing James, etc. Harry has already assumed incorrectly that he was James, why not again. Again, what if the voice Harry assumes to be his father at GH is really Harry? In the SS movie James was not in the flash back scene at GH (JKR told the writer to omit it from the script), and James voice was eliminated altogether from the PoA movie. Did someone not want us to recognize that voice? JKR is also constantly reminding us how much Harry looks like James. In OOTP it is mentioned several times. (My personal favorite is when Molly tells Sirius that Harry is not James no matter how much he looks like him.) Why keep beating us over the head with this? No one is going to mistake Harry for James in the present since James has been dead for many years. But it could happen if Harry goes back in time. I also wonder if someone will realize who he is because he has his mother's eyes? It's possible. Time-travel is already a reality in JKR's world From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun Jun 13 13:26:38 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:26:38 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > > It was argued that Sirius had no obligation to show kindness > > toward Kreacher because Kreacher's loyalty was doubtful. But > > Sirius owed something to Kreacher as his master. snip > > Kreacher, however, owed Sirius no loyalty except > > that forced on him by the House Elf enchantments. He did owe > > loyalty to Mrs. Black, based on affection alone, since she was > > dead. And Sirius trampled on it. > > Just a small point here: when exactly did Kreacher serve Sirius, > fearfully or otherwise? He never did anything that he was supposed to > do - clean, cook, etc. All he did was skulk around, get in the way, > insult Sirius and his guests and generally make a complete nuisance > of himself. More than that, he did things against Sirius' wishes - > such as take away various items that Sirius wanted destroyed. > > Naama AmanitaMuscaria now - I think we may be seeing a re-run of Snape and Potter here. Sirius grew up in the House of Black, and you can bet Kreacher was loyal to the senior Blacks, as he still was in OotP. As we know, house-elves are powerful beings. Sirius hated being home, but it may not have just been because of his parents. I can see Kreacher spying on and telling on Sirius if he put a foot out of line (like not joining Voldie?). I'm betting Sirius hates Kreacher because he's got a long memory of Kreacher's loyalty and deviousness. I suspect Sirius had to leave home not just because of his parents, but because of Kreacher. I can't really see how else he can comment on Crouch's dismissal of Winky and understand how Crouch's treatment of her shows his character, all the while being blind to how his own treatment of Kreacher shows his own character. Then again, we can all see how someone else should do things... Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 13:05:32 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:05:32 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Stefanie wrote: > > I don't think this quote indicates DD knew LV could put *false* > > visions in Harry's mind...I believe, however, that it shows the > > gravity of the situation at hand. DD knew that Harry could be used, > > and the effects of this were quite horribly shown in Arthur > > Weasley's attack. DD, as well as, I believe, Snape knew from > > Arthur's attack just how lethally LV could use Harry... > > > > Snape, with this information, seemed to have put his pride, and > > hatred of James, above the well being of ALL of the Order members -- > > that is by no means excusable...whether Harry did or did not > > practice, whether his pride was wounded with the exposition of the > > Pensieve scene, Snape KNEW that in Voldemort's first attempt at > > using Harry through something else, he had been able to achieve a > > direct attack. If he really cared for the safety of the Order, that > > would be a more pressing issue than a "schoolboy grudge." > > Del is confused : > I'm not sure I understanD you. What do you mean when you say that LV > used Harry ? During the attack on Arthur Weasley, Harry was only a > witness of some kind, he didn't do anything, didn't provide any > information or whatever. So how do you see that LV used him during > this attack ? > > As far as Snape knew, the greatest danger Harry could put the Order in > was if LV gained some knowledge about the Order's plans through > Harry. But since Harry didn't know much anyway, the danger wasn't that > bad. There was also a remote possiblity that LV might try and take > over Harry completely, but the chances of his success were very small > indeed. Stefanie replies: "'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside you the very night that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's attack. I knew at once that *my worst fears were correct*: ****Voldemort had realised he could use you.**** In an attempt to arm you against Voldemort's assaults on your mind, I arranged Occlumency lessons with Professor Snape.'" (OotP 37) (emphasis mine, of course) Harry wasn't a witness in the vision, he was in the snake -- depending on who he was relaying the story to, he changed his POV to assuage the situation. He told DD that he was *in* the snake. If Voldemort could have Harry in the snake, feeling the emotions of the snake: "The dream changed His body felt smooth, powerful and flexible. He was gliding between shining metal bars, across dark, cold stone..." "Harry longed to bite the man but he must master the impulse he had more important work to do..." (OotP 21) According to DD, the attack on Arthur was proof of LV being able to mentally manifest Harry into a physical action. Snape DID know that. Not only was Harry a danger of becoming a source of information, he was a physical source of danger as well. DD knows this - DD arranged for Occlumency lessons with Snape - Snape knows this. And Snape still abandons the lessons because he cannot seperate himself from his hatred of a dead man. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Sun Jun 13 14:21:31 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:21:31 -0000 Subject: why is malfoy a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101093 > Mandy wrote: > > Draco is perfect Prefect material. Yes he's a Slytherin and a > > complete wanker, but 20 years ago DD believed enough in another > > complete wanker to make him head boy. Mr James Potter. > > Jo wrote: > Granted, we've seem James at less than his best in the pensive scene but he's not a complete wanker. He did save Snape's life and gave his own fighting against Voldemort which is pretty non-wankish, IMO. Mandy again: Saving a life and fighting LV isn't wankerish, but you can't deny the way James behaved toward Snape and Lily was not the behavior of a complete wanker? Granted that was in James' 5th year and he was not a prefect at that time, and he appears to have grown up before his 7th year and the head boyship. Thanks to the desire to impress Lily I expect. My point is it doesn't seem that DD or the head of houses let immature bullying behavior affect their choices for either prefects or Head boy/girl. I imagine they are hoping the responsibility will be an encouragement to grow up. I'm holding out for Draco to grow up like James and Sirius did. I'm not saying that Draco will be converting to the good side, but he will mature. We've already seen a more focused, darker and scarier Draco at the end of OOP. Mandy From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 13 15:02:20 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Jun 2004 15:02:20 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1087138940.16.83154.m24@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101094 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 13, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 13 15:02:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:02:06 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > Just a small point here: when exactly did Kreacher serve Sirius, fearfully or otherwise? He never did anything that he was supposed to do - clean, cook, etc. All he did was skulk around, get in the way, insult Sirius and his guests and generally make a complete nuisance of himself. More than that, he did things against Sirius' wishes - such as take away various items that Sirius wanted destroyed. < ====== "I asked what you were up to ," said Sirius coldly. "Every time you show up pretending to be cleaning, you sneak something off to your room so we can't throw it out." "Kreacher would never move anything from its proper place in Master's house," said the elf, then muttered very fast, "Mistress would never forgive Kreacher if the tapestry was thrown out, seven centuries it's been in the family, Kreacher must save it, Kreacher will not let Master and the blood traitors and the brats destroy it--" "I thought it might be that," said Sirius, casting a disdainful look at the opposite wall. ""She'll have put another permanent sticking charm on the back of it, I don't koubt, but if I can get rid of it I certainly will. Now go away, Kreacher." It seemed that Kreacher did not dare disobey a direct order; nevertheless, the look he gave Sirius was redolent of deepest loathing and he muttered all the way out of the room. "--comes back from Azkaban ordering Kreacher around, oh my poor Mistress, what would she say if she saw the house now, scum living in it, she swore he was no son of hers and he's back, they say he's a murderer, too--" ====== OOP ch 6 Sirius expected Kreacher to obey him, and it seems that Kreacher was unable to disobey directly -- or he would have to punish himself. I would call that service in fear. Kreacher could in fact take only things that Sirius wanted to discard--he couldn't otherwise remove anything from its proper place in the house nor steal from Harry or the others, and he was forced to keep the secrets of the Order. He was also ordered not to leave the house, and could not do so until Sirius gave an order he could interpret as allowing him to leave. Kreacher could keep from cleaning the house and he could allow it to deteriorate but he could not deliberately trash anything that Sirius owned--unless he was willing to pay the price. Kreacher was forced to punish himself for injuring Buckbeak. Harry notes when he speaks to Kreacher in the fire, that the Elf's fingers had been injured "recently." In fact, Sirius refused to free Kreacher because it would mean the Elf would be free of the enchantments which forced him to obey to the limited extent which he did --the irony is that Kreacher found a loophole in the orders and was able to do the very thing that Sirius kept him in slavery to prevent--provide valuable information to the enemy. Pippin From grahadh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 15:11:03 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:11:03 -0000 Subject: Old Magic? (Re: Long lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: what is actually `Old Magic'? I have a faint idea of > what `magic' is, because I have examples in the books. But `Old > Magic' never appears clearly, we never see a character casting a > spell saying `That's Old Magic' > Iris This is all MHO, based on what I've inferred from reading the books: In the HP world, I think of "old magic" as the magic people did before they started refining their powers with the use of wands. When Lilly died, thus saving Harry, she didn't cast a spell with a wand, it was her sacrifice, combined with the fact that she was magical, that saved Harry's life. "New magic" I guess you could call it (though, according to the books it's thousands of years old, not exactally new) would be what the kids learn at Hogwarts. It's been developed and refined over the centuries. Old magis is even older than that, but was not developed and refined in the same way, it just exists becuase witches and wizards exist, almost like accidental magic from children. Perhaps seeing this old/accidental magic is what led witches and wizards to start refining their powers. Does that help/ make any sense? -Dhyana From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Jun 13 15:39:05 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:39:05 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101097 Snape punishes Harry for the sins of his father (while apparently ignoring the kindness of Harry's mother.) So, things that happened before Harry was born, committed by a man Harry barely remembers, are somehow worthy of Harry being treated like crap by this guy. But we learn in OoP that two other Hogwarts teachers, McGonagall and Hagrid, are also Order of the Phoenix members. That means they have lost friends to DEs, like Lucius Malfoy, Mr. Crabbe, Mr. Goyle and Mr. Nott, all of whom have sons at Hogwarts. We know Hagrid and McGonagall loved James and Lily. We know that the Longbottoms were popular. We know from Moody in OoP that others were killed. Friends. DEAD because of the DEs. And where do we see McGonagall and Hagrid treating Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott like that? Hagrid obviously dislikes Malfoy, but he keeps it professional in class. Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they should remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is incapable of. Darrin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 15:55:14 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:55:14 -0000 Subject: What do the Order members know about the prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101098 Out of all the blame discussion, there is one important detail that I still miss. What did the Order members (other than DD) know about the prophesy during OotP? The possibilities that I see are: ------------------------------------------ 1. They knew that there is something important in the DoM that LV wants badly, but they weren't told what it is. They didn't know that Harry is the other person who can retrieve it for Voldy. 2. They knew it is an important prophecy, but they didn't know its content. 3. They knew only the first part of the prophecy. This means that they knew Harry is a key person for the future of the war, and not merely a kid who happened to have several clashes with Voldy in the past. 4. Like 3, but they also knew that Harry is the second person who can retrieve the prophecy. 5. They knew the whole prophecy and about Harry able to retrieve it. ------------------------------------------ I talked about the Order members as a whole but it is of course possible that some of them were told or knew more than the others. I find 5 very unlikely. It means that if any of the Order members would have been captured by Voldy, he could have used Legiliency or torture to make them tell him the prophecy. 1 and 2 seem less likely to me but certainly possible. The options that make the most tactical sense to me are 3 and 4. Voldy knew the first part of the prophecy anyway, so there was no reason not to tell about it to the Order members also, and an important reason to tell: they may protect Harry better if they know that he is a key figure for winning the war. Until after the DE's escape LV didn't know that only he and Harry can remove the prophecy, so it made sense not to tell that to the Order members either. Once Avery was replaced by Rockwood, LV did know about that, so it did make sense to tell the Order members also. DD most probably knew that Rockwood was unspeakable and that he'll tell LV about it. Any canon supporting one of the options above? Neri From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:21:28 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:21:28 -0000 Subject: Harry as Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101099 > Just a small point here: when exactly did Kreacher serve Sirius, > fearfully or otherwise? He never did anything that he was supposed to > do - clean, cook, etc. All he did was skulk around, get in the way, > insult Sirius and his guests and generally make a complete nuisance > of himself. More than that, he did things against Sirius' wishes - > such as take away various items that Sirius wanted destroyed. > > Naama Even though Kreacher may have not done things like cooked or clean it stated in OOP that if he was given a direct order he could not disobey it. That is why he left around Christmas time to go to the Malfoy's...Sirius had told him to get out and he took it literally. From dk59us at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:25:38 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:25:38 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hogwarts State of Mind Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101100 This song's been FILKed before, but I thought I'd send my version along, FWIW. Hogwarts State of Mind (Based upon "New York State of Mind" by Billy Joel) (Midi: http://www.fladi.de/joel/midi/newyork.mid) Most kids like to get away from their homework for a month or two Hop a boat to the Isle of Wight just to enjoy the view. I can't wait 'til it's over, and I don't want to waste more time, I'm in a Hogwarts state of mind. I'm stuck at the Dursleys, with their tidy house and their tiny minds, trying to do schoolwork when I can steal the time I'm just counting the days now 'til the Express is on the line, I'm in a Hogwarts state of mind. It isn't easy living day to day out of touch with the potions and charms. Right now I'd even welcome Profess'r Snape or Argus Filch's ugly face. Stranded here with the muggles, yes the ennui really gets to me. Platform Nine-and-three-quarter's all that I want to see. I'll surely lose my reason living with the Dursleys' kind, I'm in a Hogwarts state of mind. It isn't easy living day to day out of touch with the potions and charms. Right now I'd even welcome Profess'r Snape or Argus Filch's ugly face. Stranded here with the muggles, yes the ennui really gets to me. Platform Nine-and-three-quarter's all that I want to see. I'll surely lose my reason living with the Dursleys' kind, I'm in a Hogwarts state of mind. I'm just counting the days now 'til the Express is on the line, 'cause I'm in a Hogwarts state of mind Yes, I'm in... I'm in a... I'm in a Hogwarts...State...of...Mind Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:41:06 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:41:06 -0000 Subject: Green Light Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101101 Just wanted to throw this out here... I'm rereading CoS, and I just got to Lockhart's Dueling Club. Most of the school seemed to be there. GL let's the kids try dueling (disarming only, yeah, right) and after Snape does a "finite incantatum," to end the fiasco, JKR says, A haze of greenish smoke was hovering over the scene." (11:192) Now, to all the posters wondering why Harry only sees/remembers seeing one bright green light. Hmmm. Lots of spells were being cast in CoS which left the room cast in a greenish smoke. Could it be that LV at GH did indeed do the AK 3x, the result of which cast a green light, and maybe the light was so bright this time _because_ the AK that hit Harry backfired? Susan (teilani) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:55:50 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:55:50 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of wh at is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101102 --- > Kathi wrote: > > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > > will be "huge" in the next two books. > > Ok, we all know what Percy's been like in all the books. Here's what I have to offer. In CoS (4:58) the trio and families are in Diagon Alley getting their school supplies, and the three of them wander into a junk shop and see Percy reading "Prefects Who Gained Power" "'A Study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers,' Ron read aloud off the back cover. "That sounds _fascinating..." then... "'Course, he's very ambitious, Percy, he's got it all planned out...He wants to be Minister of magic..." Ron told H/H...\ Just thought I'd point out the title and the blurb Ron read off the back. Prefects from Hogwarts who gained power. Hmmm. I personally want Percy to redeem himself, but regardless if he does or not, maybe he'll go even further before that happens. Maybe he'll make a real move to gain power. Perhaps the "Evil Temptress," whoever that might be, will try her luck with Percy. Susan (who's only on CoS in her rereadings, but is still taking notes) From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:56:44 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:56:44 -0000 Subject: Green Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Just wanted to throw this out here... I'm rereading CoS, and I just > got to Lockhart's Dueling Club. Most of the school seemed to be > there. GL let's the kids try dueling (disarming only, yeah, right) > and after Snape does a "finite incantatum," to end the fiasco, JKR > says, A haze of greenish smoke was hovering over the scene." (11:192) > > Now, to all the posters wondering why Harry only sees/remembers > seeing one bright green light. Hmmm. Lots of spells were being cast > in CoS which left the room cast in a greenish smoke. Could it be that > LV at GH did indeed do the AK 3x, the result of which cast a green > light, and maybe the light was so bright this time _because_ the AK > that hit Harry backfired? > > Susan (teilani) I like the greenish smoke idea. But I would bet that there were far more than 3 spells cast. When James (or whoever else was there if you dont believe it was James) said "You go, ill hold him off!," that he didnt just stand in the path of Voldy. I imagine he dueled with him for several minutes. Harry did in the graveyard, so why couldnt James? A few shield charms or something? Jason From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:04:45 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:04:45 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat as Temptress? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101104 Anyone think it's possible that the sorting hat and its reminders that Harry would do well in Slytherin could play the role as temptress? If not the hat, Slytherin house itself? After finishing up OoP again last night, I had the feeling that Harry was going to pull away from everything he is or knows. Like Superman when he gave up his powers to be normal... also the plot of Spiderman 2. Maybe Harry is seduced by the Hat and Slytherin as a way to make things easier, to get out of being Harry. Harry is tired of being Harry. I think he'll have to go through something like that before he comes out on the other side ready to take care of business. Superman and Spiderman both come out on the other side of their selfishness to save the day and Harry probably will also. If Harry switched to S we'd finally get rid of the 2 dimensional slytherin characters and probably get a ton of back story and insight that we're missing as of yet. Jason I think the death or near death of someone extremely close is going to be the reason to accept being SuperHero!Harry From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:06:43 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:06:43 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101105 JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/2004 Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. vmonte here: JKR loves the character of Sirius. What would be the reason she needed to kill this character off? It seems to me that DD tried several times to save Sirius, by making Harry and Hermione time- travel, and by keeping Sirius at GP. DD said he made a mistake with Sirius--he realizes that he should not have forced Sirius to stay at GP. If DD has time-traveled I think that he has changed some events. And I think that he has changed some past events for the better and some for the worse. I don't think that time-travel is as rigid as some fans believe. What if DD has been changing history through time-travel but Sirius messed up his plans by changing himself from secret keeper. And what if Harry time-travels back and young Sirius realizes that his actions are what caused Voldemort to find GH. If Sirius were to find out that in the future he was going to die no matter what DD or Harry did, he may change what he does in the past. I'm not saying that Lily and James survive, but maybe teenage Harry was also meant to die at GH. Sirius may sacrifice himself in the past to make sure that teenage Harry Potter lives. Sirius would then die in a nobler and more fitting way. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:16:18 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:16:18 -0000 Subject: Green Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" > wrote: > > Just wanted to throw this out here... I'm rereading CoS, and I > just > > got to Lockhart's Dueling Club. Most of the school seemed to be > > there. GL let's the kids try dueling (disarming only, yeah, > right) > > and after Snape does a "finite incantatum," to end the fiasco, JKR > > says, A haze of greenish smoke was hovering over the scene." > (11:192) > > > > Now, to all the posters wondering why Harry only sees/remembers > > seeing one bright green light. Hmmm. Lots of spells were being > cast > > in CoS which left the room cast in a greenish smoke. Could it be > that > > LV at GH did indeed do the AK 3x, the result of which cast a green > > light, and maybe the light was so bright this time _because_ the > AK > > that hit Harry backfired? > > > > Susan (teilani) > > > > I like the greenish smoke idea. But I would bet that there were far > more than 3 spells cast. When James (or whoever else was there if > you dont believe it was James) said "You go, ill hold him off!," > that he didnt just stand in the path of Voldy. I imagine he dueled > with him for several minutes. Harry did in the graveyard, so why > couldnt James? A few shield charms or something? > > Jason Susan again: All right! So Maybe the room indeed would be filled with green light, as in, not just one little burst of light, but that the room was really lit up by all this green light and smoke. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:23:31 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:23:31 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat as Temptress? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > Anyone think it's possible that the sorting hat and its reminders > that Harry would do well in Slytherin could play the role as > temptress? If not the hat, Slytherin house itself? > > After finishing up OoP again last night, I had the feeling that > Harry was going to pull away from everything he is or knows. Like > Superman when he gave up his powers to be normal... also the plot of > Spiderman 2. Maybe Harry is seduced by the Hat and Slytherin as a > way to make things easier, to get out of being Harry. > > Harry is tired of being Harry. I think he'll have to go through > something like that before he comes out on the other side ready to > take care of business. Superman and Spiderman both come out on the > other side of their selfishness to save the day and Harry probably > will also. > > If Harry switched to S we'd finally get rid of the 2 dimensional > slytherin characters and probably get a ton of back story and > insight that we're missing as of yet. > > > Jason > I think the death or near death of someone extremely close is going > to be the reason to accept being SuperHero!Harry These are really excellent thoughts. It makes me think of all the talk about how students should beware of magical items that think for themselves. The hat certainly seems to do so. Why else would it mull over where to put certain students? The only real problem I have with that is that it seems to me that most things that get bewitched get a mind of their own. Look at the Ford Anglica. It literally kicked Harry/Ron/Hedgwig out. It chose to come and save them from the spiders. The Sorting Hat can't resort Harry, but it can seduce a new first year. Or it could bring something else to Harry to aid/hinder him in battle. Any thoughts? Susan (teilani) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:28:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:28:54 -0000 Subject: JKR mistake or do I misunderstand? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > Was Sirius definitely in Gryffindor when he was at Hogwarts? Because there > is that infamous quote of Hagrid's (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) that > there wasn't a wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. And if he (and > the rest of the WW) thought Sirius went bad, why would he have said it? So > have I missed mention of him being in Slytherin, or did JKR write an > inconsistency? And was Pettigrew in Gryffindor or Slytherin, because the > same thing would apply to him for real (although after the fact, since > Hagrid didn't know he went bad when he said it). > > Barbara > bd-bear > http://mysite.verizon.net/vze80gd4/ Hi,Barbara! JKR stated in her chat (I think also in the last one) that all four Marauders were in Gryffindor. I think Hagrid's quote could be read a exageration. :o) Alla. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 17:34:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:34:49 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Snape punishes Harry for the sins of his father (while apparently > ignoring the kindness of Harry's mother.) > > So, things that happened before Harry was born, committed by a man > Harry barely remembers, are somehow worthy of Harry being treated > like crap by this guy. > > But we learn in OoP that two other Hogwarts teachers, McGonagall and > Hagrid, are also Order of the Phoenix members. > > That means they have lost friends to DEs, like Lucius Malfoy, Mr. > Crabbe, Mr. Goyle and Mr. Nott, all of whom have sons at Hogwarts. > > We know Hagrid and McGonagall loved James and Lily. We know that the > Longbottoms were popular. We know from Moody in OoP that others were > killed. > > Friends. DEAD because of the DEs. > > And where do we see McGonagall and Hagrid treating Malfoy, Crabbe, > Goyle and Nott like that? > > Hagrid obviously dislikes Malfoy, but he keeps it professional in > class. > > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they should > remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is > incapable of. > > Darrin. True, Darrin. I think it is a given that other teachers treat Slytherins professionally. The only example which I can think of to the contrary is the infamous Dumbledore's giving out points in PS/SS, but I firmly maintain that the only thing which Dumbledore's probably done wrong - was not giving out points earlier to save Slyhts from pugblic embarrasement. Trio deserved those points. They faced Voldie and won (albeit temporarily). They faced the challenges to get to the Stone and they did eventually. Alla From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Jun 13 17:44:58 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:44:58 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101110 > > > > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they > should > > remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is > > incapable of. > > > > Darrin. > Alla: > The only example which I can think of to the contrary is the >infamous Dumbledore's giving out points in PS/SS, but I firmly maintain that the only thing which Dumbledore's probably done wrong - was not giving out points earlier to save Slyhts from pugblic embarrasement. > D-Dore was making a value judgement there, and hopefully, giving a "tough love" lesson to the Slyths. How did the Slyths get such a big lead in the first place? Two reasons: 1) Malfoy's treachery to trap Neville, Hermione and Harry (assisted by McGonagall's willingness to severely punish her own students) and 2) Harry being unable to play in the Quidditch final. D-Dore was saying, essentially, that such a situation should not be rewarded. Malfoy's treachery IS worth less, ultimately, than Harry's courage, Ron's self-sacrifice, Hermione's cleverness and Neville's bravery. And let's face it, had Harry played in the Quidditch final, the points would have been very very different. But he was busy saving the Philosopher's Stone. I think D-Dore was acknowledging that. So, I don't consider it unprofessional at all. Let us also remember that Ron, Harry and Neville all suffered injuries. To just quietly say, "good show, here's some points" is an insult to them. As for the Slyths? Maybe they should have learned something about the right way to do things. Darrin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 18:09:11 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:09:11 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101111 Stephanie wrote : > Harry wasn't a witness in the vision, he was in the snake -- > depending on who he was relaying the story to, he changed his POV to > assuage the situation. He told DD that he was *in* the snake. If > Voldemort could have Harry in the snake, feeling the emotions of the > snake: (snip) > According to DD, the attack on Arthur was proof of LV being able to > mentally manifest Harry into a physical action. Del replies : But as far as I can see, Harry was only in the snake, he wasn't the snake itself. He was feeling everything the snake felt, but he wasn't commanding it. To me, that read like the ultimate witnessing experience : better than a book, better than a movie, here comes the real-life experience, be inside somebody else's mind, feel as they feel, do as they do. But just as you cannot direct characters in a book or actors in a movie, Harry couldn't direct the snake, only witness what was going on at the deepest level. As we've seen at the end of OoP, there was a risk that LV would go further than that and try and possess Harry, but it was a remote risk. Del From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 13 18:15:07 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:15:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange boy at Riddle Manor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101112 The people killed were, I believe, Tom (Senior) and his parents. Remember that Young Tom was named after his father just before his mother died. Young Tom was the strange boy, coming to kill his muggle father and grandparents. Hope that helps. Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 18:29:09 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:29:09 -0000 Subject: Strange boy at Riddle Manor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "burnoweatherhead" wrote: Also, who was the teenager Frank saw? Was it Tom Riddle? Or Harry using a time-turner from Books 6/7? I don't believe this has been explained, but apologies if it has. Burno < Now karenoc1: This has probably been mentioned before, but I think we can infer that Tom Riddle, Jr (or the wizard styling himself as Lord Voldemort!) killed his father and grandparents. I don't have GoF in front of me now, but Barty Crouch, Jr mentioned similarities between himself and LV near the end of the book, like how they were both named for unsatisfactory fathers and how they both had the pleasure of killing those fathers. I can't right now think of a reason why Harry would use a time-turner to go back in time to kill Tom Riddle Senior. I guess I can't believe that Harry would do this at all, but I especially don't think he would want to kill Riddle Sr. *after* Tom Jr. had already been born. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 18:30:13 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:30:13 -0000 Subject: Kreacher goes over the wall & the Charmed House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ravenclaw Black > wrote: > > > if Harry had tried to tell Umbridge where Sirius was, would he > > > magically forget the location a split second before he attempted > to > > > speak the words? Would the Fidelus Charm, make his mind go blank > on > > > that subject, if someone tried to probe his mind with > Legilimency; > > > would those memories be force blank by the Charm? > > > > > > The way I took the Fidelus charm is this: Harry could have told > > Umbridge the location of the house. She could have gone there her > self, > > BUT she would not be able to find it. If I remember, there was a > > passage in the book when someone says as long as the potters' > secret > > keeper remained quiet, Voldmort could have looked in the window of > their > > living room and not seen them eating dinner. I would guess that > > Umbridge could even see OP memebers comming and going from the > house and > > still not been able to figure out exctally where they were comming > and > > going from > > > > Another post from long ago (I'm making some progress while being > bored at 2:35AM) > > Anyway, I always imgagined it going something like this... > > > When Umbridge or anyone else forces Harry to reveal Sirius' > whereabouts, Harry says Number 12 Grimmauld Place! To which Umbridge > replies, Number What? Where? > > I imagine her hearing the words but the words having no meaning to > her. Number Who? What place?! > > Number 12 Grimmauld place!! > > Whose place? This place?! Make sense Potter! Have you been given a > babbling beverage?! > > Other times I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello, Who's on First? > Who? Exactly. > > Jason Susan (teilani) now: I've been wondering the same things along different lines. Surely the other Marauders, particularly Sirius (best man, Godfather) would know where his best friend lives. Moony and Wormtail (and DD, and any other friends) would probably have known as well. Why? Because they're already in the know. Just like the members of the new Order know where Grimmauld is, how to get in, etc. However, what does that exactly mean for the Secret Keeper? I don't think that it means that Wormtail was the _only_ one to know where J&L were, but that he was entrusted with keeping the Fidelus Charm going by keeping the secret. Therefore, when he _told_ the secret, the charm preventing the DEs and LV from finding GH ended, and LV could now peek into their window and watch them eat their dinner. Does this make sense? Now, since Harry is _not_ the secret keeper for Grimmauld, he cannot really reveal the secret, and Umbridge et al would still be in the dark as to its location. Any thoughts? From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 13 18:33:27 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:33:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Characters Do What--No Fault--Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101115 | From: melodiousmonkey | Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 4:25 AM [Monkey writeth]: | | Good post! [Lee]: Tankya! :-) [Monkey]: | Just one quick comment you might find interesting - JK | said in an interview (I forget which one) that she'd always imagined | Hermione having a younger sister, but the sister never made an | appearance and JK feels it might be too late now. I suppose | Hermione's sister still played a part in the way JK shaped Hermione [Lee]: Interesting! And can definitely figure into the "bossiness" thing...especially if the sibling was a lot younger. In my case, I'm the oldest, the next, a brother, is five years younger...And I hated it!! :-) Then came another brother a year after that and I was truly ticked off...all the screaming, yowling, and the idea of wanting to move them in with me??? Horrors! Now we're all good friends. We actually survived. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who now realizes why she got gray hair at 18...that was over 25 years ago.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 18:44:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:44:39 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101116 Darrin wrote : > Snape punishes Harry for the sins of his father (while apparently > ignoring the kindness of Harry's mother.) > > So, things that happened before Harry was born, committed by a man > Harry barely remembers, are somehow worthy of Harry being treated > like crap by this guy. > > But we learn in OoP that two other Hogwarts teachers, McGonagall and > Hagrid, are also Order of the Phoenix members. Del replies : I would just like to point out that there's a major difference between Snape and Hagrid/McG : their age. There's a whole generation difference between them. When the first LV War broke out, Hagrid and McG were already adults, while Snape was a kid. Snape grew up in the War, his whole outlook on life was shaped by it. About kids paying for their fathers' sins : in France, we are barely starting to talk about the kids who were born during the WWII and who had a French mother and a German father, and we're horrified by what we're discovering. There was nothing more innocent than those kids, and yet many of them were treated in ways that would make the Dursleys' treatment of Harry look heavenly in comparison. I'm afraid it's just in human nature : we need to find a culprit, someone to blame for our hurt. And since James is dead and Harry has the bad idea of looking just like him, well, Snape just went afer him. Not nice, I agree, but terribly human. Darrin wrote : > And where do we see McGonagall and Hagrid treating Malfoy, Crabbe, > Goyle and Nott like that? > > Hagrid obviously dislikes Malfoy, but he keeps it professional in > class. Del replies : Let's look rather for someone contemporary to Snape. Who do we know ? Sirius and Remus. Sirius is just as unfair as Snape most of the time. I'm not sure he would have been a much fairer teacher than Snape if he had been given the chance. Not as inherently vicious, granted, but fair to people like Draco ? I think not. Remus is another matter. He's very forgiving and tolerant. But then he's a werewolf, a victim of discrimination, and it's in his best interest to try and get on everyone's best side. It's the way he lives, trying to befriend everyone. He likes peace, and he needs it too. I don't think Snape is a nice guy. But I do think he has to be judged against people with similar backgrounds, and neither Hagrid nor McG are such people. Darrin said : > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they > should remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways > Snape is incapable of. Del replies : You've said it, Snape is incapable of doing better. He's been bent by everything that happened to him or that he did, and expecting him to be normal is unrealistic. Just like as a kid I learned that expecting some old people to have courteous feelings towards Germans was unrealistic. Some old people had come over their hurt and hatred and fear, and some hadn't. And I was taught not to judge them, because *I didn't know*. Del From bard7696 at aol.com Sun Jun 13 19:05:15 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:05:15 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Darrin wrote : > > Snape punishes Harry for the sins of his father (while apparently > > ignoring the kindness of Harry's mother.) > > > > So, things that happened before Harry was born, committed by a man > > Harry barely remembers, are somehow worthy of Harry being treated > > like crap by this guy. > > > > But we learn in OoP that two other Hogwarts teachers, McGonagall and Hagrid, are also Order of the Phoenix members. > > Del replies : > I would just like to point out that there's a major difference between > Snape and Hagrid/McG : their age. There's a whole generation > difference between them. When the first LV War broke out, Hagrid and > McG were already adults, while Snape was a kid. Snape grew up in the > War, his whole outlook on life was shaped by it. Snape's views on Harry have nothing to do with the war. They have to do with things that happened when he was a teenager. Hagrid and McGonagall lost friends to their students' fathers. And while I'm at it, Draco has done everything he can think of to get Hagrid fired, and Hagrid still treats him professionally. So maybe Snape was "shaped" by the war. (And let us also remember which side of the war he started on.) But McGonagall and Hagrid were actually fighting it when Snape's world was battling with James and Sirius. > About kids paying for their fathers' sins : in France, we are barely > starting to talk about the kids who were born during the WWII and who had a French mother and a German father, and we're horrified by what we're discovering. There was nothing more innocent than those kids, and yet many of them were treated in ways that would make the > Dursleys' treatment of Harry look heavenly in comparison. There you go again. Anything to downplay the mental and physical abuse Harry suffered, huh? And again, we're not talking about innocent kids when we're talking about Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. (We don't know Nott too well) We're talking about Hitler Youth. These brats have tried to get Hagrid fired AND they worked against teachers while being members of the Inquisition Squad. They are starting to come into their own, sins-wise, and yet they are STILL treated professionally. > I don't think Snape is a nice guy. But I do think he has to be judged against people with similar backgrounds, and neither Hagrid nor McG are such people. I'm judging him as a teacher. Someone entrusted with responsibility. I don't care if someone else is older. Are we REALLY saying that Hagrid has more self-control than Snape? Yes, we are. Pretty pathetic on Snape's part. > Darrin said : > > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they > > should remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways > > Snape is incapable of. > > Del replies : > You've said it, Snape is incapable of doing better. He's been bent by everything that happened to him or that he did, and expecting him to be normal is unrealistic. And yet we expect Harry to be. And we don't seem to have a problem judging him. Oh, that's right. He treats the Creevey brothers badly. He gets into a fight with Hermione over a broom. How dare he. Darrin -- AND SNAPE IS STILL THE ADULT!!!! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 13 19:29:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:29:25 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Snape punishes Harry for the sins of his father (while apparently > ignoring the kindness of Harry's mother.) > > So, things that happened before Harry was born, committed by a man > Harry barely remembers, are somehow worthy of Harry being treated > like crap by this guy. > > But we learn in OoP that two other Hogwarts teachers, McGonagall and > Hagrid, are also Order of the Phoenix members. > > That means they have lost friends to DEs, like Lucius Malfoy, Mr. > Crabbe, Mr. Goyle and Mr. Nott, all of whom have sons at Hogwarts. > > We know Hagrid and McGonagall loved James and Lily. We know that the > Longbottoms were popular. We know from Moody in OoP that others were > killed. > > Friends. DEAD because of the DEs. > > And where do we see McGonagall and Hagrid treating Malfoy, Crabbe, > Goyle and Nott like that? > > Hagrid obviously dislikes Malfoy, but he keeps it professional in > class. > > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they should > remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is > incapable of. Well, if you're not happy you can always write to JKR and tell her she must change the story-line to suit your personal prejudices. Snape doesn't hate Harry IMO. He doesn't like him much, thinks he needs taking down a peg or two, but hate? I doubt it. Harry hates Snape right enough; Snape's to blame for everything. Snape was planning to steal the Stone, remember? Snape was going to make sure they lost the Quidditch match, Snape was going to poison him, Snape, Snape, Snape. It's a paranoid fixation with that boy; so much so that Voldy agents swan about right under his nose without him noticing. Snape probably treats him better than Vernon does. Certainly I haven't yet seen Vernon save Harry's life. Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, (though not always) when Harry has done something particularly brainless, or marks docked; marks, by the way that don't matter. How many exams has Harry failed? Zero. None. And the OWLS (which do matter) are marked by external examiners and everybody knows it. How many detentions has Snape given Harry in 5 years? Care to guess? Wow! That really is some expression of hate! Snape is much more complex than a seething cauldron of Potter-ophobia. He's not nice (thank God) but he is interesting. And just what have the Slyths done that's so terrible? They sneer, they strut, they name-call. How awful! They usually admire their fathers - how un-natural! Flint cheats at Quidditch - throw him in Azkaban at once! Malfoy changes Hermione's dentition and gets changed into a ferret, he makes a snide comment and gets his face slapped, he docks points when authorised by Umbridge (which immediately get replaced). He always loses. But it seems that isn't enough for you. Meantime he and his buddies are regularly hexed on the Hogwarts Express before they can even get their wands out. James's bullying revisited. Er, tell me - who're the Slytherins here? Slytherins are not DEs; though most DEs are Slytherins. There is a difference. There'd better be; Harry is prime Slytherin material according to the Hat. Just because he didn't want to join doesn't change what the Hat saw. The potential is still there. Conflict is part of the plot dynamic. It's necessary, and since Voldy is little more than a back-ground figure, conflict and opposition must be shown elsewhere in the story. Harry/Snape/Malfoy makes for an entertaining alternative. I haven't read any post *whining* that Slyths get a raw deal, though I suspect there are posters who wish they did exist; it might help justify their chosen view. I have seen posts whining that Snape, DEs, Slytherins are irredeemably evil and no-one must like them, any of them, they're evil, un-natural, unforgivable. Rubbish. It's a natural reader response to well-rounded characters. We all have favourites, we mostly disagree, that's what most of the posts are about after all - different views, differently expressed. All opinions on canon are acceptable, but when posters resort to using words like 'whining' as a description of posters alternative views, I get very irritated indeed. It shows a lack of manners and of proportion. Personally, I suspect surface appearances. All is not what it seems in JKR's WW, or I've wasted my money on a trite, predictable tale. And I don't think I have. Kneasy From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 19:35:10 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:35:10 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101119 James died, leaving Snape with an unpaid debt and a bitter enmity. James is dead Snape can't repay him or revenge himself on him, he can't even forgive him. Snape is stuck with an unresolved and unresolvable relationship and some very bitter memories. Then Harry comes along, looking just like his father, and acting like him too to Snape's highly biased eyes. Harry does break the rules quite a lot, (always for good reason) but one can see how this could look like his father's arrogance all over again to Snape. And he gets away with it, just like James always did, (again in Snape's biased view). To have some sympathy for why Snape behaves as he does is not to say he is right, of course he isn't. But saying he should 'just get over it' is like asking Harry to 'just get over' how the Durselys have treated him, or Sirius to 'just get over' being framed and sent to Azkaban. The human, or wizardly, psyche just doesn't work like that. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 19:44:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:44:47 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: snip > > And just what have the Slyths done that's so terrible? They sneer, they > strut, they name-call. How awful! They usually admire their fathers - > how un-natural! Flint cheats at Quidditch - throw him in Azkaban at > once! Malfoy changes Hermione's dentition and gets changed into a > ferret, he makes a snide comment and gets his face slapped, he docks > points when authorised by Umbridge (which immediately get replaced). > He always loses. But it seems that isn't enough for you. > Meantime he and his buddies are regularly hexed on the Hogwarts > Express before they can even get their wands out. James's bullying > revisited. Er, tell me - who're the Slytherins here? > Well, Kneasy, this so-called "name-calling" is VERY hard to forgive for me. No, it is not too late for fifteen year olds to change, but it seems to me (could be wrong, wrong, wrong, of course) that JKR has no desire to take any of the Slyhterins we already saw from the "evil path". What this "name-calling" means to me as applied to real life? it means that the person who calls you such name holds a view that whole group of people (in my case nation) is inferiour just because their blood is different. It means that such person thinks that everything is the fault of jews. Jews should not get decent education, decent jobs, etc., etc. Yes, yes, i am talking about real life, but honestly, it just seems soooo similar to me. No, I cannot think of such person as being a decent one. Sorry! I am sure you remember what Malfoy and Co said before they got hexed. yes, IMO, they deserved what they got. > Conflict is part of the plot dynamic. It's necessary, and since Voldy > is little more than a back-ground figure, conflict and opposition must > be shown elsewhere in the story. Harry/Snape/Malfoy makes for an > entertaining alternative. > True. > I haven't read any post *whining* that Slyths get a raw deal, though I > suspect there are posters who wish they did exist; it might help justify > their chosen view. Kneasy, come on! No, I did not like the word "whining" either, but are you honestly telling me that you haven't read any posts that Slytherin House is prejudiced against, underdogs? These views have right to exist as much as mine or yours, but Darrin aslo had a right to pint out that such views exist. I, myself, think that something has to be done with Slytherin House to save ne comers from this poison ideology. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 19:53:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:53:58 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: snip. To have some sympathy for why Snape behaves as he does is not to > say he is right, of course he isn't. But saying he should 'just get > over it' is like asking Harry to 'just get over' how the Durselys > have treated him, or Sirius to 'just get over' being framed and sent > to Azkaban. The human, or wizardly, psyche just doesn't work like > that. Just get over it? No, I am not saying it. In fact, I am even willing to make allowance for Snape and let him hate Harry in private in the darkness of his dungeon. How about that? :o) But while he is working. Nope, sorry. No allowance from me. More than twenty years passed. Harry did not do anything to him. Harry is his charge, on his shoulders now lies the burden of saving the world. I am not even asking Snape to "get over it". I am asking him to realise that "Harry is not James" By the way, Harry's parents are dead too and he knew that Peter betrayed him. yes, if thirteen year old can do it, I'd say Snape should too. Alla From veiledmyst at comcast.net Sun Jun 13 18:36:50 2004 From: veiledmyst at comcast.net (veiledmyst) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:36:50 -0000 Subject: Missing character - OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101122 Kirstini: the missing Evil Temptress you highlighted would fit in rather > nicely with the publisher's promise that "there will be a new DADA > teacher (female) with a personality like poisoned honey". I suppose > you could call it a pet theory of mine because unlike everyone else > on the list, I don't think this is going to be Arabella Figg. > I thought this was said about book 5 and ended up being DJU, with her sweet, girlish voice and words that veiled her acid thoughts and personality. Was this in fact a quote for an upcoming book? veiledmyst, who is very confused. From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 16:41:08 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:41:08 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they should > remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is > incapable of. I'm not sure who is "whining" about the Slytherins' plight. Personally, the best rottenness I've seen towards Slytherins has been the work of DE Crouch/Moody & more quietly, of Snape (the "if ever you apply for a job" comment in Umbridge's office no doubt went right over its recipients head, but still...) At any rate, why on earth would JKR have all the professors like Snape? Wouldn't it get a little tiresome? The whole point is, it seems to me, that there are subtleties which should not be ignored. Not that the difference, eg., between Umbridge & Snape is all that subtle. Honestly, would you rather have a teacher like Snape or like Umbridge? Not a hard choice, is it? Though I could see a good couple days' classroom discussion on the subject. McGonagall is different from Snape, but has certain similarities too. You put Hagrid & McGonagall in the same category - I wouldn't. But that's the fun of it. Snape's not a nice guy. Bet most of his students pass their OWLs though. And I bet he takes it very personally if they don't - not just because they're dunderheads, in his mind, but because he considers it a personal failure if they don't. We could use a few more teachers like that - though admittedly, a whole roster of them at one time might induce heart attacks and ulcers. From strawberry at jamm.com Sun Jun 13 19:50:49 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:50:49 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101124 Hi, I'm a newbie to HPfGU, and just thought I'd take a moment to introduce myself. Jenni A.M. Merrifield here (also known as "strawberyJAMM" or even just "strawb"), currently living in Mill Creek, WA, USA (slightly NE of Seattle), I originally hail from Vancouver, BC, Canada. I've posted a couple of replies to other threads, but this is the first thread I'm attempting to start. Enough of that, on to the meat of my post... :-) I've had two questions about Peter Pettigrew floating through my mind that I'd love to know the answer to. I think only JKR could provide the answers and I haven't seen anything from her that would help. 1. How did "Scabbers" end up in the hands of the Weasley family? The books indicate that it belonged to Percy before Ron got it, but that doesn't seem to jive with him having been with the family for 12 years, if you assume that "School Pets" aren't acquired until age 11. After all, Percy is only, what, four or five years older than Ron (I don't have my books handy and I can't remember if he was in 5th or 6th year in PS/SS). Perhaps "Scabbers" was owned by one of the older brothers before Percy got it. That could help explain the 12 years with the Weasley family, assuming that at least one of Ron's older brothers is 12 years older. However, even with that, how did "Scabbers" get himself into a position to be purchased by a Wizarding family? Did he sneak into the pet shop and join the other rats in the cages? Wouldn't the store owner notice the sudden occurance of an extra grey rat? Needless to say, the whole thing perplexes me. 2. Assuming that Petigrew is, in fact, a "lapsed Gryffindor" (as Mike Gray suggests in his essay -- http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/pettigrew.html), what caused him to lapse? That is, if the sorting hat saw a larger share of courage and resolve than sly cunning in Peter's soul, what blocked his courage, keeping it from coming to the fore? What made self-preservation and betrayal the more attractive route? And it's not like he only betrayed Lily and James after suffering through extreme torture. No, he made a conscious decision to run to V. with the information that would betray two of the people he'd been friends with throughout school, and *then* he actually went out of his way to frame a third. He didn't have to frame Sirius -- he could have done the same disappearing trick but made it look like V. had done him in, so people might think he only cracked after being tortured. Anyway, those are my thoughts, and it's sure nice to meet everyone here. :-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 13 20:10:29 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:10:29 -0400 Subject: FW: [HPforGrownups] Hate Harry / Love Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101125 >>>m: delwynmarch [mailto:delwynmarch at yahoo.com] As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To me, Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and people outside my own private world.<<< Sorry to jump in here, but I wonder what Harry you are referring to? I don't think he things the world revolves around him. It isn't his fault he was so famous in the wizarding world. And the only reason he has disregarded rules in the first 3 books (haven't read the other two recently enough to speak to them) is because he thought something bad/dangerous/evil was happening and he wanted to try and stop it. The way he treats the Creevey brothers has more to do with feeling uncomfortable that they make such a fuss over him (when he knows he's no more special than anyone else) rather than thinking he's so great and doesn't have time for the "little people." >>>I know it's a commonly held view, but I don't share it. I don't see that Harry ever truly thought about sacrificing himself.<<< You don't think he was "sacrificing himself" when he figured out what/where the Chamber of Secrets was and went to save Ginny? Who else could have done that but a parselmouth, and since DD wasn't around to help, why not take action? Then "delwynmarch" wrote: >. . . I wouldn't > want much to do with Harry in real life, because he's one of those > people who think the world revolves around them. They take you into > consideration only if you have something to offer them. Just look at > the way he treats the Creevey brothers who obviously adore him. To me, Harry is one of those kids who can't be bothered by anything that > doesn't concern them immediately, and those people make me highly > uncomfortable, because *I* happen to care for a lot of things and > people outside my own private world. >And Alla responded: >Wow, where, where did you get that?:o) >To me, Harry hates the fact that he is famous and honestly, I would >not want much to do with Collin brothers either, because they >constantly remind him that he is famous. >I remember that Harry tried to be nice to them, but then he just >tries to escape. I think it is perfectly understandable. Thank you for saying that. . .I don't understand some people's interpretations of this book. . .we're all reading the same material, yet here's someone who thinks Harry is a selfish, snobbish person and others who see him as I do, someone who never asked to be famous, doesn't particular like to be famous, and doesn't do things (read: save people/fight evil) for the sake of glory, but because it's ~right~. Barbara, who disagrees with another poster that wrote that Harry hasn't actually CHOSEN to be good- -I believe he has many times over aka bd-bear From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 13 22:13:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:13:56 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: vmonte: > > There is something else that struck me as curious about Ginny in OOTP- > - > page 100, U.S. version of OOTP: "Yeah, size is no guarantee of > power," said George. "Look at Ginny." "What do you mean?" said > Harry. "You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat- > Bogey Hexes, have you?" > (What is a bat-bogey hex I wonder?) > Geoff: For ideas etc. on bat-bogey hex, see the thread starting at message 83506. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 13 22:36:48 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:36:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: <3b.48a2a4b7.2dfe3100@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101127 In a message dated 6/13/04 7:28:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, shoujo at optusnet.com.au writes: Batchevra wrote: > I disagree that Petunia knows James. She only says that awful boy > in OOTP, Harry says if it was his father than say so. We have no > proof that it was James. I would speculate that maybe it was Remus, > because he left the letter to the Dursleys and wrote it in the kitchen. >Of course if V or P don't want anything to do with Magic, the fact that they refer to "your lot", "his kind", "your kind of people", etc couldn't possibly meant that P is trying to not even mention Harry's parents. Particularly since P does mention James quite often in the summer holidays periods of the books, just not directly by name, but rather through a euphemism like those above. Bill< There was one more thing I was thinking of, which is Lily and James got together in their 7th year, we don't know when this conversation that Petunia heard took place. Was it before or after Lily started dating James. It is too vague and the fact that Petunia never answers Harry's challenge that makes me think that it might have been someone else. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 14:01:01 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: <40CB926F.000009.03620@YOUR-W04GTXLD67> Message-ID: <20040613140101.486.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101128 Magicmom2001 wrote: > Lupin said he was prefect (bk 5) hopefully to influence his > friends. Perhaps Malfoy is chosen for his leadership abilities. > Whether he chooses for good or bad, he is a strong leader. Also, > I guess to be HB/HG, you don't have to be a prefect. Lily & James > had the honor although James was never a prefect. Now, would that not KILL Malfoy if Harry ended up being Head Boy!! The person who put his beloved father in prison, the person who he has looked down on and made fun of. The person that he feels he has the upper hand on with him being a prefect. In other words, the person Malfoy has tried to be better than but always seemed to fall short of - is now HEAD BOY!!!! Talk about taking the rivalry to a whole new level!! moonmyyst From strawberry at jamm.com Sun Jun 13 20:51:53 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:51:53 -0000 Subject: Lightning Bolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101129 Littlekat wrote: > > What does a lightning bolt look like? I am absolutely > > clueless! Total blindness doth have its price. Many: > Harry's scar is a zig zag shape. Three short diagonal lines. The > first line starting upper left going down to the lower right, the > second line connecting at the bottom of the first and going down > to the lower left again, and the third line connecting with the > bottom of the second line going to the lower right again. strawberryJAMM here: Littlekat - Mandy forgot to mention that the second line is shorter than the first and third lines, anywhere from two thirds to a half the length. Does the method you use to read Email make the spacing of ASCII characters apparent, or does it just read the words aloud to you? On the off chance that you can see the characters and their spacing, I've inserted an ASCII art lightning bolt below. As I also don't know what the characters I've used will be called, a "soldus" is the same as a "slash" - a line that goes from top right to bottom left. A "reverse soldus", "reverse slash" or "backslash" is the opposite - a line from the top left to the bottom right. ASCII art lightning bolt follows this line. / / / \ \ / / / Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 22:34:58 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:34:58 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101130 rowena_grunnionffitch at y...> wrote: > James died, leaving Snape with an unpaid debt and a bitter enmity. James is dead Snape can't repay him or revenge himself on him, he can't even forgive him. Snape is stuck with an unresolved and unresolvable relationship and some very bitter memories. Then Harry comes along, looking just like his father, and acting like him too to Snape's highly biased eyes. Harry does break the rules quite a lot, (always for good reason) but one can see how this could look like his father's arrogance all over again to Snape. And he gets away with it, just like James always did, (again in Snape's biased view).> Stefanie responds: You said it right: Highly biased. James *is* dead. James never got to raise Harry. Harry didn't hear Hogwarts stories from James growing up. James had, except for the first year of Harry's life, no influence on Harry's character except for whatever personality traits Harry may have inherited. Snape knows James is dead, and consequently obviously knows this. To excuse Snape for hating Harry merely based on his parentage is practically equivalent to excusing a pureblood for hating a muggleborn...or to put it in muggle terms, hating someone for the race they were born into. We don't excuse others, why is Snape shielded from refute? rowena_grunnionffitch at y...> wrote: To have some sympathy for why Snape behaves as he does is not to say he is right, of course he isn't. But saying he should 'just get over it' is like asking Harry to 'just get over' how the Durselys have treated him, or Sirius to 'just get over' being framed and sent to Azkaban. The human, or wizardly, psyche just doesn't work like that. Stefanie replies: Harry was personally tormented by the Dursleys. Sirius was personally thrown into prison without trial by the Ministry...last time I checked, Harry didn't go about personally tormenting Snape. Yes, James did. Yes, that was wrong. James was 15 and not Harry. I believe a big "GET OVER IT" is in order. But then again, judging from how Snape has reacted in other situations where a cool head over a seething grudge was needed (i.e., PoA's Shrieking Shack, throwing Harry out of Occlumency) I guess we should consider his treatment of Harry mild in comparison to the potentially lethal things he's let his grudge lead to. From hgranger919 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 22:37:26 2004 From: hgranger919 at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <20040613223726.20841.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101131 Snapes Slytherin said: > Why does everyone underestimate teenagers? Why does the fact that > Harry's 15 give him the right to act like a little berk? (Wow...I > just used berk in a sentence...) Severus is most definitely a giant > git. (Wow...git...) And everyone jumps down his throad when he does > something wrong. But for some reason, every time Harry does something > bad, it's "Harry is 15! Severus isn't 15!" What does age have to do > with it? Age is no excuse AT ALL. Especially when you know what Harry > knows. Severus knows too, but isn't Harry our hero? (That be > sarcasm...I'm not a big Harry fan at all...) Time magazine ran a cover story about the teenaged brain a couple of months ago. Apparently, the portion of the brain that governs impulse control does not mature and come online until 19 or 20 years of age. In other words, the reason that teenagers act impulsively is because that's how their brains are wired. It's a really interesting discovery, especially in light of this discussion of Harry and the penseive. Suzanne/Hermione From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Jun 13 23:09:20 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:09:20 -0000 Subject: Old Magic? (Re: Long lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grahadh" wrote: > > > This is all MHO, based on what I've inferred from reading the books: > > In the HP world, I think of "old magic" as the magic people did before they > started refining their powers with the use of wands. When Lilly died, thus > saving Harry, she didn't cast a spell with a wand, it was her sacrifice, > combined with the fact that she was magical, that saved Harry's life. > > "New magic" I guess you could call it (though, according to the books it's > thousands of years old, not exactally new) would be what the kids learn at > Hogwarts. It's been developed and refined over the centuries. Old magis is > even older than that, but was not developed and refined in the same way, it > just exists becuase witches and wizards exist, almost like accidental magic > from children. Perhaps seeing this old/accidental magic is what led witches > and wizards to start refining their powers. > > Does that help/ make any sense? > > -Dhyana Yes, it does. Thanks for your reply, Amicalement, Iris From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 23:16:34 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:16:34 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101133 Kneasy wrote: Snape doesn't hate Harry IMO. He doesn't like him much, thinks he needs taking down a peg or two, but hate? I doubt it. Kneasy also wrote in #101080: Snape's loyal all right, but loyal to what? What he does seem to be loyal to is the plan to destroy Voldemort. That over-rides everything else and this is probably what DD understands - Snape can be trusted in this, he is committed to the downfall of Voldy, he will do what is necessary, he will cooperate fully. Neri now: Kneasy, your analysis of Snape has a slight consistency problem. If Snape doesn't hate Harry that much, and all the Harry-goading in the books is just the DD/Snape double act, why couldn't Snape realize that his usual teaching method doesn't work for the Occlumency lessons? If destroying LV is his top priority, couldn't he just try a different approach? Just, say, going for less painful memories at start and grant a small praise here and there? Very extreme, I know, but it's for the cause, after all. Or didn't DD tell him how important are the Occlumency lessons for defeating LV? In that case, maybe DD doesn't trust Snape all that much after all? Here is DD's analysis of Snape. You might say this is just more double act, but I find it more consistent with the facts: "I trust Severus Snape, but I forgot ? another old man's mistake ? that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father ? I was wrong." Why is Snape failing to overcome his feelings about James relevant for teaching Harry Occlumency? Do you have an explanation other than the obvious one? I agree that Snape is a very complex and interesting character. I agree he is (for some unknown reason) loyal to the plan to destroy LV. I also think he is very emotional and he hates Harry's guts. This is exactly what makes him so interesting for the story. Neri From melaniertay at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 20:48:29 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:48:29 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101134 Kneasy wrote: > Snape doesn't hate Harry IMO. He doesn't like him much, thinks he > needs taking down a peg or two, but hate? I doubt it. > Harry hates Snape right enough; Snape's to blame for everything. > Snape was planning to steal the Stone, remember? Snape was going > to make sure they lost the Quidditch match, Snape was going to > poison him, Snape, Snape, Snape. It's a paranoid fixation with that > boy; so much so that Voldy agents swan about right under his nose > without him noticing. I think that they Hate each other. I believe that Snape's behavior at the end of POA shows he had just crossed the line and hated Potter. I think Harry, began to truly hate Snape at the end of OOTP. I believe it says as much. That he felt loathing far more than he ever had for Malfoy and he'd never forgive Snape for Sirius' death. > Snape probably treats him better than Vernon does. Certainly I > haven't yet seen Vernon save Harry's life. I don't see this as a point in his favor. > Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, (though > not always) when Harry has done something particularly brainless, > or marks docked; marks, by the way that don't matter. How many > exams has Harry failed? Zero. None. Actually we don't know that. I know he got D's all the time and the book states taht DD must have something to do with him scraping a pass. > And the OWLS (which do matter) are marked by external examiners > and everybody knows it. How many detentions has Snape given Harry > in 5 years? Care to guess? Wow! That really is some expression of > hate! Snape is much more complex than a seething cauldron of > Potter-ophobia. He's not nice (thank God) but he is interesting. He is interesting. I think so too. Although, I'm not sympathetic enough to think he's doing great things while we're not looking. > And just what have the Slyths done that's so terrible? They sneer, > they strut, they name-call. How awful! They usually admire their > fathers - how un-natural! Flint cheats at Quidditch - throw him in > Azkaban at once! Malfoy changes Hermione's dentition and gets changed > into a ferret, he makes a snide comment and gets his face slapped, he > docks points when authorised by Umbridge (which immediately get > replaced). He always loses. But it seems that isn't enough for you. > Meantime he and his buddies are regularly hexed on the Hogwarts > Express before they can even get their wands out. James's bullying > revisited. Er, tell me - who're the Slytherins here? It's not considered bullying (by Webster definition) if the other party always starts it. Which they do. Certainly not that big of a deal, but you can hardly call the other party "bullying". > Slytherins are not DEs; though most DEs are Slytherins. There is a > difference. There'd better be; Harry is prime Slytherin material > according to the Hat. Just because he didn't want to join doesn't > change what the Hat saw. The potential is still there. Wormtail is a Gryf, right? I've always thought some of the Sytherin's are just fine. I'm not convinced Malfoy will be able to fall in this category any time in the future. Yes, his father is also to blame if he turn into a DE. However, as they get older they loss this right to blame their parents. Not yet, but it's coming for Malfoy. > I haven't read any post *whining* that Slyths get a raw deal, > though I suspect there are posters who wish they did exist; it might > help justify their chosen view. I have seen posts whining that Snape, > DEs, Slytherins are irredeemably evil and no-one must like them, any > of them, they're evil, un-natural, unforgivable. Rubbish. It's a > natural reader response to well-rounded characters. We all have > favourites, we mostly disagree, that's what most of the posts are > about after all - different views, differently expressed. That's not true. I've been a member of this site for 1 1/2 weeks and I've read several. There seems to be an equal amount of people that prefer Sytherins as opposed to Gryf in this group. Mel From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 23:20:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:20:58 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <20040613223726.20841.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > Snapes Slytherin said earlier: snip But for some reason, every time Harry does something > > bad, it's "Harry is 15! Severus isn't 15!" What does age have to do > > with it? Age is no excuse AT ALL. Especially when you know what Harry > > knows. Severus knows too, but isn't Harry our hero? (That be > > sarcasm...I'm not a big Harry fan at all...) > > Susanne: > Time magazine ran a cover story about the teenaged brain a couple of months ago. Apparently, the portion of the brain that governs impulse control does not mature and come online until 19 or 20 years of age. In other words, the reason that teenagers act impulsively is because that's how their brains are wired. It's a really interesting discovery, especially in light of this discussion of Harry and the penseive. Alla: Just a brief comment. There is a reason, why in the criminal cases children often get different punishment than if the adult commits the same crime. There is a reason why if civil case is tried and negligence is an issue, the trier of fact often told to use not the "reasonable person standard", but the "standard of reasonable child or teenager..." It is not my intention to go all patronising on you , Talia, but yes, age has everything to do with it. :o) Alla Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 23:29:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:29:08 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > I agree that Snape is a very complex and interesting character. I > agree he is (for some unknown reason) loyal to the plan to destroy > LV. I also think he is very emotional and he hates Harry's guts. This > is exactly what makes him so interesting for the story. > > Neri Yes, Neri and that is exactly what makes bashing Snape so fun for me. I mean here we have this man, who obviously was brave enough to leave the Dark Side and started spying for the light and who at the same time cannot get rid of this idiotic hatred of Harry. I hope he will overgrow it at the end, but I am not keeping my hopes high. I guess, I am not a "Real" Snape fan, since I definitely don't accept him as he is. I want him to change in that one aspect. But I care about him, honestly, I do..... in my own way. :o) Alla From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 00:13:23 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:13:23 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > But while he is working. Nope, sorry. No allowance from me. More than > twenty years passed. Harry did not do anything to him. Harry is his > charge, on his shoulders now lies the burden of saving the world. You're asking for rationality about a highly emotional matter, I'm not surprised Snape can't oblige, few people can. Actually Harry has done things to Snape, disrupted his class with a firework, stolen from his stores, talked back, broken rules and put himself in danger forcing Snape and others to get him out of it. Not to mention getting Sirius off! Now I admit some of these things were perfectly justifiable - but of course SS doesn't. > I am not even asking Snape to "get over it". I am asking him to > realise that "Harry is not James" I think he does know that - he doesn't hate Harry because of his father, James just prejudiced him against the boy. He hates Harry for himself these days. > By the way, Harry's parents are dead too and he knew that Peter > betrayed him. yes, if thirteen year old can do it, I'd say Snape > should too. I can't recall Snape trying to kill Harry at any time. That Harry forswore personal vengence in Peter's case is greatly to his credit, and may be to his and the cause's ultimate advantage. But he certainly hasn't forgiven him, and I doubt he'll be particularly civil the next time they meet. From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 00:23:42 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:23:42 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: . > > Here is DD's analysis of Snape. You might say this is just more > double act, but I find it more consistent with the facts: > > "I trust Severus Snape, but I forgot ? another old man's mistake ? > that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor > Snape could overcome his feelings about your father ? I was wrong." It would appear that DD knows about something that occurred between James and Severus that was so terrible that he would say "some wounds run too deep for the healing." That's *some wound*. We're not hearing about the pensieve attack here, I'm sure of it. JKR has intimated that the motivation behind "the prank" was nothing more than Sirius' hatred of Snape. And Snape sees that as attempted murder. DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was if the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. Melpomene, who can't add anything to Kneasy's (once again) brilliant comparison between Snape's "hatred" of Harry and Harry's blatant hatred of Snape. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 14 01:03:55 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:03:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <46.50b5c877.2dfe537b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101139 In a message dated 6/13/2004 7:52:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Just a brief comment. There is a reason, why in the criminal cases children often get different punishment than if the adult commits the same crime. =========== Sherrie here: Not always - and not of late. Over the past decade or more, there's been much of a trend to have younger and younger defendants tried as adults, with adult penalties being given - the only differences being that they are usually incarcerated separately until they turn 18 or 21, and they are not generally subject to the death penalty where it exists. The theory being, if they're old enough to do the crime, they're old enough to do the time. (Actually something of a throwback - there are records of 12-year-olds being incarcerated at Sing Sing, back when we first opened up shop, back around 1828.) Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 01:08:39 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 01:08:39 -0000 Subject: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) In-Reply-To: <46.50b5c877.2dfe537b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/13/2004 7:52:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > Just a brief comment. There is a reason, why in the criminal cases > children often get different punishment than if the adult commits the > same crime. > =========== > Sherrie here: > > Not always - and not of late. Over the past decade or more, there's been > much of a trend to have younger and younger defendants tried as adults, with > adult penalties being given - the only differences being that they are usually > incarcerated separately until they turn 18 or 21, and they are not generally > subject to the death penalty where it exists. The theory being, if they're old > enough to do the crime, they're old enough to do the time. (Actually something > of a throwback - there are records of 12-year-olds being incarcerated at Sing > Sing, back when we first opened up shop, back around 1828.) > > Sherrie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Alla: Of course, not always. The worse the crime is, the older defendant is , etc., etc. But often enough to make a point on why age matters> :o) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 01:09:18 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 01:09:18 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101141 Melpomene wrote: It would appear that DD knows about something that occurred between James and Severus that was so terrible that he would say "some wounds run too deep for the healing." That's *some wound*. We're not hearing about the pensieve attack here, I'm sure of it. JKR has intimated that the motivation behind "the prank" was nothing more than Sirius' hatred of Snape. And Snape sees that as attempted murder. DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was if the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. Neri: I tend to agree. We didn't run the "worst memory" strand to its end, and there were two more "worst memories" strands that Harry didn't look at. It is not even necessary to imagine James so extremely cruel. People can wound each other very deeply even when they don't really mean to (do I hear somebody shouts LOLLIPOPS?). My point, however, was that Snape DOES hate Harry, and he hates him because he is James' son. DD words suggest he initially thought Snape should overcome these feelings, at least in regard to Harry, and he was disappointed when it turned out that Snape couldn't. Neri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 01:12:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 01:12:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > It would appear that DD knows about something that occurred between > James and Severus that was so terrible that he would say "some > wounds run too deep for the healing." That's *some wound*. We're not > hearing about the pensieve attack here, I'm sure of it. Alla: May I ask why are you so sure that we are not hearing about Pensieve attack? Mel: JKR has > intimated that the motivation behind "the prank" was nothing more > than Sirius' hatred of Snape. And Snape sees that as attempted > murder. Alla: No, she did not. She also said that 'you will learn more about that" Mel: DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as > it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was > too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was if > the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. Alla: Dumbledore shrugged it off? Could be, I'll grant you that. It also can be that Dumbledore remembers something about Snape hurting Sirius so badly that he .... undestands why Sirius did that. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 01:16:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 01:16:59 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: snip Alla previously: > > I am not even asking Snape to "get over it". I am asking him to > > realise that "Harry is not James" > Rowena: > I think he does know that - he doesn't hate Harry because of his > father, James just prejudiced him against the boy. He hates Harry for > himself these days. > Alla: Any canon support for that? I think he is still confused about that fact that Harry is not James. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 02:45:59 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:45:59 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Maybe when people whine about how bad the Slyths have it, they should remember how the other teachers manage to behave in ways Snape is incapable of. > If the other teachers behaved like Snape they would have grasped immediately that Harry's life was in danger at Hogwarts even when Dumbledore was there and Voldemort was vanquished. They would dhave been able to face that fact without panicking or going into denial and they would have taken action at the risk of their own lives, regardless of whether Dumbledore was going to back them up or not. Shall we count the times that Snape has rushed to Harry's aid or acted on his behalf? 1) The troll (PS/SS) 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any danger (PS/SS) 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA) 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to ensure Harry's safety (GoF) 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger (OOP) 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was missing (OOP) I am sure there are some I've missed. But Harry for the most part doesn't realize that Snape, far more than Sirius, has always been there to protect him. He only thinks that Snape is ruining his fun and trying to get him punished, never thinking that Snape might be using the threat of punishment to get Harry to behave with a little more concern for his own safety. It takes Lupin to make Harry see that he's being careless with his parents' sacrifice by needlessly risking his life. Too bad Lupin didn't think about that when he decided to withhold information that could have stopped someone he thought was a Death Eater from entering the castle. But I suppose none of that counts against Snape's failure to put his emotions aside long enough to teach Harry Occlumency. But let's remember the reason Dumbledore didn't teach Harry Occlumency when he should have, long before Voldemort had returned. It seems he couldn't put his feelings about Harry aside and do what was best for the Order. Shame, really. He's a grownup; he really ought to have some self-control by now. ;-) Pippin From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 03:09:14 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:09:14 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101145 > Harry hates Snape right enough; Snape's to blame for everything. Snape was planning to steal the Stone, remember? Snape was going to make sure they lost the Quidditch match, Snape was going to poison him, Snape, Snape, Snape. It's a paranoid fixation with that boy; so much so that Voldy agents swan about right under his nose without him noticing. Snape probably treats him better than Vernon does. Certainly I haven't yet seen Vernon save Harry's life. > Funny, I have yet to see Snape save Harry's life, at least on his own. He held off Quirrell's curse for Hermione, but Snape did nothing to save Harry in PoA. Harry was in no danger. > Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, (though not > always) when Harry has done something particularly brainless, or marks docked; marks, by the way that don't matter. How many exams has Harry failed? Zero. None. And the OWLS (which do matter) are marked by external examiners and everybody knows it. How many detentions has > Snape given Harry in 5 years? Care to guess? Wow! That really is some expression of hate! Snape is much more complex than a seething > cauldron of Potter-ophobia. He's not nice (thank God) but he is > interesting. I'm glad you thank God for not nice people. Gives me a pretty good perspective on what I'm dealing with here. > And just what have the Slyths done that's so terrible? They sneer, they strut, they name-call. How awful! They usually admire their fathers -> how un-natural! Flint cheats at Quidditch - throw him in Azkaban at once! Malfoy changes Hermione's dentition and gets changed into a > ferret, he makes a snide comment and gets his face slapped, he docks> points when authorised by Umbridge (which immediately get replaced).> He always loses. But it seems that isn't enough for you. > Meantime he and his buddies are regularly hexed on the Hogwarts > Express before they can even get their wands out. James's bullying > revisited. Er, tell me - who're the Slytherins here? Ohmygod. Where to begin. * Attempted murder of Harry with the Dementor prank in PoA. * Repeated attempts to get Hagrid fired. * Attempts to maim Harry before Quidditch matches And those poor "bullied" Slyths you were yapping about? They drew first. Malfoy and his gang were going to outnumber Harry at the end of OoP and Harry's friends stopped him. Who are the Slytherins, you ask? They are the ones who start the fight and lose it. Just because they are useless in a fight doesn't mean they aren't vile. > Slytherins are not DEs; though most DEs are Slytherins. There is a > difference. There'd better be; Harry is prime Slytherin material > according to the Hat. Just because he didn't want to join doesn't > change what the Hat saw. The potential is still there. And what did the Hat see? Could it be Essence of Voldemort? Harry is carrying around part of Voldermort with him, remember? > Conflict is part of the plot dynamic. It's necessary, and since Voldy is little more than a back-ground figure, conflict and opposition must> be shown elsewhere in the story. Harry/Snape/Malfoy makes for an> entertaining alternative. > Sure, we need villains. It just seems more useful to consider them villains, rather than picked on ickle wittle good boys and girls who are just trying to survive the nasty Gryffs. > that's what most of the posts are about after all - different views, > differently expressed. All opinions on canon are acceptable, but when> posters resort to using words like 'whining' as a description of posters> alternative views, I get very irritated indeed. It shows a lack of manners> and of proportion. Lack of proportion? Hmmm, you took the words right out of my mouth when you posted about how bullied the Slyths are. And stick around on the list. You'll see plenty of whining. Darrin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 03:18:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:18:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > If the other teachers behaved like Snape they would have > grasped immediately that Harry's life was in danger at Hogwarts > even when Dumbledore was there and Voldemort was > vanquished. They would dhave been able to face that fact > without panicking or going into denial and they would have taken > action at the risk of their own lives, regardless of whether > Dumbledore was going to back them up or not. > > Shall we count the times that Snape has rushed to Harry's aid or > acted on his behalf? > Alla: Eh, Pippin. I am always glad to give Snape a little credit where its due, but in many of the situations on your list, we actually have no idea whether Snape's motivations were rushing to Hary's aid or something else. > 1) The troll (PS/SS) I think he arrived when all the fighting was already done by the Trio > 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) I guess, together with Hermione. > 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) Could be. > 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) Snape could have plenty of motivations confronting Quirrell. helping Harry? How? > 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any > danger (PS/SS) I guess we are talking about broomstick again. You cannot count it twice. :o) > 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) I suppose he was concerned about his safety, but we don't know for sure. > 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA) Even though I reread PoA recently, to my shame, I don't remember this one. Could you give me the page, please? > 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he > might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) Sorry, I think he was operating in the mode revenge first, children's safety - later. Although I guess after seeing the movie I do believe that he was concerned about their safety. > 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) What other choice did he have? I think Dumbledore would have killed him, if he would not have brought children to the castle. > 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to > ensure Harry's safety (GoF) If you mean near the end of GoF, together with McGonagall and Dumbledore then I agree. If not, then you got me puzzled. > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) Ooo, yes. That was my favourite Snape-Harry moment in GoF. > 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger > (OOP) Yes. > 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was > missing (OOP) We have no idea, if he actually searched the forest. Intended, yes (gets half a point) . Searched or not - we don't know. > > > > I am sure there are some I've missed. I think you named more than there really were. :o) > But I suppose none of that counts against Snape's failure to put > his emotions aside long enough to teach Harry Occlumency. It does count, but I consider this failure to be too grave to simply brush it off. Alla From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 03:21:21 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:21:21 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101147 > > Shall we count the times that Snape has rushed to Harry's aid or > acted on his behalf? > > 1) The troll (PS/SS) Snape was running to the troll. I doubt he had any idea Harry, Hermione and Ron were there. > 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) Yes, he distracted Quirrell long enough for Hermione to finish the job. > 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) Dumbledore showed up, making Snape's gesture pointless. > 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) And yet Quirrell still managed to make it all the way to the Stone and nearly killed Harry. Good job, Snape! > 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any > danger (PS/SS) When was this? > 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) We don't know what precipitated this. D-Dore might very well have ordered him to do it. > 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA > 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he > might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) And he failed to listen to anything Harry, Hermione and Ron were saying, nearly got two Order members killed, and nearly took Harry's godfather away from him. > 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) Had Snape left Harry down there with the Dementors AND a werewolf, his job wouldn't have been worth 10 cents. I never said Snape didn't fulfill basic teacher duties (except when Hermione got hit with a curse) but c'mon, that's not above and beyond. And besides, Harry's work later saved the unconscious Snape, so let's call that even. > 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to > ensure Harry's safety (GoF) Or how about just trying to catch a student out of bed? > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) On orders from D-Dore. > 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger > (OOP) Had Snape kept that to himself, what good is he to the Order? > 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was > missing (OOP) He intended to. Did he make it? > I am sure there are some I've missed. Not for lack of reaching :) > It takes Lupin to make Harry see that he's being careless with > his parents' sacrifice by needlessly risking his life. Too bad > Lupin didn't think about that when he decided to withhold > information that could have stopped someone he thought was a > Death Eater from entering the castle. Maybe because Harry has no reason to distrust Snape's motives. He knows Lupin didn't hate his father. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 03:25:20 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:25:20 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101148 Mel: > > > It would appear that DD knows about something that occurred between > James and Severus that was so terrible that he would say "some > wounds run too deep for the healing." That's *some wound*. We're not > hearing about the pensieve attack here, I'm sure of it. JKR has > intimated that the motivation behind "the prank" was nothing more > than Sirius' hatred of Snape. And Snape sees that as attempted > murder. DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as > it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was > too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was if > the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. > I always figured D-Dore's "my memory is as good as it ever was" was his way of telling Snape, "You got a second chance, so shut up while I give Sirius one too." Darrin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 03:29:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:29:29 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Funny, I have yet to see Snape save Harry's life, at least on his > own. He held off Quirrell's curse for Hermione, but Snape did nothing to save Harry in PoA. Harry was in no danger.< Scuse me? Hermione stopped Quirrell entirely by accident on her way to setting Snape on fire. If she hadn't knocked over Quirrell by mistake, she'd have succeeded in getting Harry killed. And how was Snape supposed to know that Harry was in no danger in PoA? Especially since it wasn't true. There was a Death Eater on the loose. Pettigrew did attack Ron and might just as easily have attacked Harry. Considering that Ron was still out cold an hour after he was attacked, that was no mere Stupefy! he got hit with. Of course it's a pity Snape had the wrong idea about who the DE was, but it's also a pity that neither Sirius nor Lupin thought to bring Snape around so that he could see Pettigrew for himself. Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 14 03:43:48 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:43:48 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101150 StrawberryJAMM (nice name!) wrote: << if you assume that "School Pets" aren't acquired until age 11. >> I don't see any reason to assume that. Sure, Harry didn't get a pet until age 11, but he was living with *Dursleys*, not nice parents. << How did "Scabbers" end up in the hands of the Weasley family? >> People figure he knew the Weasleys, a large, poor, kindhearted family, would take in a stray pet, so he went there and made nice to a child, probably young Percy, who couldn't afford to buy a pet. When the parents found out, they let him keep it, out of some mixture of softheartedness and figuring that rats aren't expensive to feed and don't require a lot of upkeep. << That is, if the sorting hat saw a larger share of courage and resolve than sly cunning in Peter's soul, what blocked his courage, keeping it from coming to the fore? What made self-preservation and betrayal the more attractive route? And it's not like he only betrayed Lily and James after suffering through extreme torture. No, he made a conscious decision to run to V. with the information that would betray two of the people he'd been friends with throughout school, and *then* he actually went out of his way to frame a third. >> We don't actually know he wasn't tortured. We have Sirius's word that he left his hiding place with no sign of a struggle, but he could have been lured out by trickery ... I like to imagine that he got into the coils of a Evil Seductress, who handed him over to LV while he was on a date with her. The Evil Seductress might have been sicc'ed on him because he was known to be a friend of James and Lily, and he might have bragged to her of being chosen as Secret Keeper -- Hagrid is an example that Gryffindor courage doesn't prevent blabbing things one shouldn't. I can't really make an excuse for why he framed Sirius. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 14 03:44:41 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:44:41 -0000 Subject: Occlumency/ JKR/Castles/Murtlap potion/TWT Dragons/know Future/Potions grade Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101151 Occlumency: I personally believe that, as Harry's mental connection with Voldemort is something quite different than Legilimency, Occlumency would be no damn use at all for closing down H's mental connection to LV. Therefore, H not having learned Occlumency in no way contributed to V luring H into the DoM. Listie Demetra suggested that Dumbledore intended the Occlumency lessons as a way for H to learn to kick V out of his mind when V tried to possess him. Maybe that was DD's plan, but IMHO it didn't work. The way H kicked Snape out of his head was by resistance and anger. The way H kicked V's possession out of his head (OoP, UK, top of page 720) is that Harry thinks: '"... let him kill us ... and I'll see Sirius again." And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened...' That is, with acceptance (of death) and love (of Sirius), of which JKR implies that the latter is more important. I intensely dislike the theory that DD set up for H to emotionally bond with Sirius and then be present when Sirius was killed by LV (via DEs) in order for H to be able to kick LV out of his head, in order to H to be a more effective weapon against LV, but I can't disprove it based on canon. If it is true, the Occlumency lessons may well have served their *purpose* by softening H up for LV's bait. Faith wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100270 : << I get a weekly news magazine called The Week. In a little snippet, they recapped a recent interview with JKR - she said that, for fun, she joined an online HP group (as an average reader) to through out some of her ideas for the future books - and no one wanted to listen to what she had to say. So she stopped. She said she joined a discussion about SpongeBob SquarePants instead. >> It was MuggleNet. JKR reported it on her new website, http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/ Click on the newspaper and scroll a bit down; it's the second to last article on page 1. There is a follow-up in the Rumours tabloid -- third of three dated 02/06/04. Mike Feenster wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100339 : << In many years after the seven books are all completed and everybody knows the whole story, we will be able to tell younger generations what it was like to speculate about what was going to happen. I don't know if anything like this has ever happened in the history of literature. >> Charles Dickens's novels were first published as serials in magazines. I gather that there was great public speculation as to what would happen in upcoming installments ... They didn't have to wait as long between installments as we do, but their installments were shorter. Mandy (exSlytherin?) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100389 : << anyone who had been to a castle knows how cold, hard and unforgiving they are. >> I keep thinking that magic would work better than coal fires or even central heating to warm a big old stone castle. Tapestries on the walls, carpets on the floors, and overstuffed furniture soften it a bit. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100506: << Maybe I'm being lazy here, but does anyone know how Hermione knew about that potion? It's also very interesting that Harry will recommend it to Lee Jordan who will tell the twins (Weasley twins not the Snape twins) about it and it will be used in one of their snackboxes. >> I just assumed that Hermione had learned about it by reading FANTASTIC BEASTS AND WHERE TO FIND THEM when it was a set book for first year. Page 30 of the Muggle edition says: "The Murtlap is a ratlike creature found in coastal areas of Britain. It has a growth upon its back resembling a sea anemone. When pickled and eaten, these Murtlap growths promote resistance to curses and jinxes, though an overdose may cause unslightly purple ear hair." Presumably the wizard edition goes into more detail, explaining the uses of "a solution of strained and pickled Murtlap tentacles", which seems to also be called "essence of Murtlap tentacles" and "Murtlap essence". I was a bit bothered when the twins told Harry that Lee Jordan had turned them on to using Murtlap essence. It was good of the twins to give attribution, but surely Lee failed to tell them that he had learned it from Harry, or they would have mentioned "your idea". On the other hand, IIRC Harry didn't tell Lee that he learned it from Hermione, so I suppose the wizards are much less obsessed with footnoting *every* source than my university was. Fan Dulin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100733 : << it occurred to me that the first Triwizard task is a little cruel. ... They take these awesome creatures, dragons, out of the wild, and ship them to England for sport keeping them under control until the contest by continuously stunning them. They then take these nesting mothers and put them in an enclosure for a student to .... seriously hurt the dragons or their eggs. Which is exactly what happens when Krum hits one of them in the eye with the conjunctivitis curse, causing it to run around in agony trampling half of it's own young. ... It's particularly galling that Charlie Weasly, supposedly some kind of naturalist, who studies these creatures in the wild, would be complicit in this. On one hand, we're to believe that it's a great sin to harm a unicorn, but on the other hand, dragons, equally legendary creatures, are apparently fair game. >> My own feelings is that the Rumanian 'dragon preserve' is more a dragon ranch than a wild habitat. Remember, dragons of species from all over the world were brought there, regardless of whether it resembled their natural habitat. Both FB and Oliver's mention of Charlie's career use the phrase 'study' dragons for what goes on there, but it seems to me more like 'wrangling' dragons. FB points out that 'dragon hide, blood, heart, liver, and horn all have highly magical properties' and in the novels we read constantly of dragonhide garments, the twelve uses of dragon blood, dragon liver at seventeen Sickles an ounce, and dragon heartstring cores for wands. I guess the wizards view them somewhat as Muggles used to view large and dangerous longhorn cattle. Lavendar Starz wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100928 : << Dumbledore already knows the entire future of the Wizarding World therefore allows him to leave Hogwarts once in a while... >> The problem is that, if the can be changed by actions taken in the present, then HOW can the future be known (whether by time travel or divination)? It's like, you used to know what happened in the future like you used to know my phone number, and someone did something to change the future (e.g. saving Harry from being killed by Quirrelmort) like I changed my phone number, and now you DON'T know any more what will happen in the future like you don't know any more my phone number. So, for Dumbledore to know what happens in the future, or for Prophecies to work, then why bother struggling and planning and pursuading now? Mel melaniertay wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101134 : << Actually we don't know that. I know he got D's all the time and the book states that DD must have something to do with him scraping a pass. >> PoA: "The exam results came out on the last day of term. Harry, Ron, and Hermione had passed every subject. Harry was amazed that he had got through Potions. He had a shrewd suspicion that Dumbledore might have stepped in to stop Snape failing him on purpose." Just because Harry suspected that DD had prevented Snape from giving him a failing mark doesn't prove that Harry's suspicion was true. I believe that Snape hates Harry but has too much respect for final grades to use a final grade against Harry the way he used assignment grades against him in OoP. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 04:24:48 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:24:48 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101152 Pippin wrote: Shall we count the times that Snape has rushed to Harry's aid or acted on his behalf? 1) The troll (PS/SS) Neri: Actually, he was trying to get past Fluffy at the time. If he hadn't, he might have arrived at the scene earlier, before the two firsties had to knock out the troll by themselves. 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) Neri: granted. 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) Neri: Granted, though it wasn't much of a sacrifice and DD was also present. 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) Neri: as somebody noted here several days ago (forgot whom, sorry), why didn't Snape told DD his suspicions regarding Quirrell? This would have protected Harry much better, and perhaps even DD would have found some way to trap Quirrelmort. As DD diagnosed in the end of SS/PS, Snape acted alone because he wanted to get even with James' memory (and perhaps also to get rid of his contender to the DADA post) and not out of any care for Harry. 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any danger (PS/SS) Neri: see my response to 4. 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) Neri: I'm not sure what incident you refer to here. 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA) Neri: Are you so sure that Snape meant to keep Harry away, rather than catch him if he did try to go there? 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) Neri: According to Snape himself, he saw Lupin on the map going in the direction of the Shack, and he followed in order to catch both Lupin and Sirius. Only when he found the cloak he had a reason to think Harry is there also, but his original motivation was to catch two people he hated, not to guard Harry. 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) Neri: yes, he didn't left three unconscious kids for the dementors. I'm impressed :-) 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to ensure Harry's safety (GoF) Neri: unless you say Snape suspected Crouch!Moody also, his objective seems to be catching Harry, not protecting him. 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) Neri: This was indeed brave and honorable, but what does it have to do with Harry? Are you saying that the war with Voldy is Harry's privet war? 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger (OOP) Neri: I'm not sure at all that he did believe, but he did check with HQ. That was the trivial and obvious thing to do. 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was missing (OOP) Neri: actually we don't know that he did that, only that he "intended" to do it. In any case, if I had to report to HQ that I let "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" enter the forbidden forest on my watch, and he isn't back yet, I would have also said I'd go look for him. Had Snape really cared about Harry, he should have followed Harry, Hermione and Umbridge closely without letting Umbridge notice him. Snape is certainly around all the time. His motivations, however, are not that clear. Arrgghh, I just noticed two members were faster to the mark. But maybe I had some points they didn't. Here it is, anyway. Neri From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jun 14 04:34:05 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:34:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: <9.2bc881c9.2dfe84bd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101153 In a message dated 6/14/04 12:05:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: >And how was Snape supposed to know that Harry was in no danger in PoA? Especially since it wasn't true. There was a Death Eater on the loose. Pettigrew did attack Ron and might just as easily have attacked Harry. Considering that Ron was still out cold an hour after he was attacked, that was no mere Stupefy! he got hit with. Of course it's a pity Snape had the wrong idea about who the DE was, but it's also a pity that neither Sirius nor Lupin thought to bring Snape around so that he could see Pettigrew for himself. Pippin< The first point is true, Peter Pettigrew could have harmed Harry, but Harry did take care of himself. My question to you is the part that Remus and Sirius could have shown Snape that Pettigrew was alive. They both tried to tell him and Harry, Ron and Hermione also tried, but Snape was too far into his rage to listen. Not only that, he attacked Remus. They decided to bring Snape to the castle, then revive him and show how Pettigrew was alive to Dumbledore. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 04:40:30 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:40:30 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101154 > > Alla: > > Eh, Pippin. I am always glad to give Snape a little credit where its due, but in many of the situations on your list, we actually have no idea whether Snape's motivations were rushing to Hary's aid or something else.< Pippin: > > 1) The troll (PS/SS) Alla: > I think he arrived when all the fighting was already done by the Trio< Pippin: It was, but the fact is that when Dumbledore needs a team to deal with a dangerous situation he calls on McGonagall, Hagrid and Snape. They are, as far as we know, the only three faculty members who agreed to join the Order, or who were trusted enough to be admitted. Neither of the other two have ever dared to confront a Death Eater unless Dumbledore was with them. Snape has. It's true that Snape flubbed up badly at the Shack, and with Occlumency, but the other two have also had their failures. McGonagall didn't take Harry seriously when he warned her about the threat to the stone in PS/SS and Hagrid blew it by passing secret information to Voldemort. McGonnagal blew it again when she let Barty get kissed. And Dumbledore himself failed to teach Harry Occlumency or tell him about the Prophecy in time. > > > 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) > Alla: > I guess, together with Hermione. Pippin: As I said in another post this evening, if Hermione had done what she meant to, Harry would have died. > > 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) > Alla: > Snape could have plenty of motivations confronting Quirrell. helping Harry? How?< Pippin: "I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even." --Dumbledore, PS/SS ch 17 Snape made it clear to Quirrell that he knew Quirrell was behind the broomstick hex and asked for an explanation of "your little bit of hocus-pocus." PS/SS ch 13. Of course Harry thinks this is Snape trying to find out about Quirrell's enchantment, but that's not the case since Snape wasn't trying to steal the Stone. Does anybody think Snape couldn't have found his way past the obstacles if he'd wanted to? Alla: > > 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any danger (PS/SS)<< > > I guess we are talking about broomstick again. You cannot count it twice. :o) I am talking about after the broomstick attack. "Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to be running into Snape wherever he went. At times he even wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. " PS/SS ch. 13 US hardcover p 221 I accept Dumbledore's interpretation that Snape was trying to keep Harry alive. > > 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA) Alla: > Even though I reread PoA recently, to my shame, I don't remember this one. Could you give me the page, please?< Pippin: US hardcover p 277. Harry knows that Snape suspects there is something about the witch and this later kept Harry from going to retrieve his invisibility cloak from beneath it, even before the extra security precautions were introduced. > > > > 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) > Alla: > Sorry, I think he was operating in the mode revenge first, children's safety - later. Sorry, but I don't follow. If he didn't think he was going to find evidence that Lupin was endangering the children, then there wouldn't be any way to get revenge, would there? > > 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) Alla: > What other choice did he have? I think Dumbledore would have killed him, if he would not have brought children to the castle.< Pippin: How would Dumbledore know? There were no witnesses, except for TT!Harry, whom Snape did not see. Snape is a good enough Occlumens to lie to Voldemort--he could have deceived Dumbledore if he wanted to. In fact, aren't you saying that Dumbledore *must* be deceived if he trusts Snape? You can't have it both ways . > > 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to > > ensure Harry's safety (GoF) Alla: > If you mean near the end of GoF, together with McGonagall and > Dumbledore then I agree. If not, then you got me puzzled. Pippin: I meant ch. 25, when he says that Harry needs to be stopped from wandering around the school for his own safety. Alla: > > 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was missing (OOP) Pippin: Oops. You're right there's no evidence Snape went into the forest. Perhaps he couldn't--he was the last Order member at the school, after all. But he did deduce where Harry had gone and notified the Order. Pippin who should know better than to cite canon without giving chapter and verse From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 05:58:53 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:58:53 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Kathi wrote: > Ok, I read that Rowling indicated that something "little" in Book 2 > will be "huge" in the next two books. For the life of me, I have no > idea what that might be. > Ideas? > > I (vmonte) responded: > > "Little" Ginny, of course. > > I actually took this quote to mean the mental connection between Harry and Voldemort in OotP. I might be wrong, but I think JKR said that when the CoS movie was released and prior to OotP. She said something along the lines of the movie coming close to giving away something that would be very important in future books. Given that I believe the books are set up in a sort of hexagram (with CoS and OotP mirroring each other ... if anyone is interested in this theory, I posted in some months back under Uncovering the Hidden Pattern), I took this quote to refer to the connection between H and V that is first touched upon in CoS and that became the main plot point in OotP (but I could of course, be wrong). Sienna From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 06:54:11 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:54:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: bowlwoman: > We know that Petunia had met James, because she mentions he told her > about the Dementors guarding Askaban. Maybe James and Lily stopped > off to see Petunia when they were on the run and VM followed them > there? Geoff: That is, of course, working on the assumption that Petunia was referring to James..... '"They guard the wizard prison Azkaban," said Aunt Petunia. Tewo seconds of ringing silence followed these words before Aunt Petunia clapped her hand over her mouth as though she had let slip a disgusting swear word. Uncle Vernon was goggling at her. Harry's brain reeled. Mrs.Figg was one thing - but /Aunt Petunia/? "How d'you know that?" he asked astonished. Aunt Petunia looked quite appalled with herself. She glanced at Uncle Vernon in fearful apology, then lowered her hand slightly to reveal her horsey teeth. "I heard - that awful boy - telling /her/ about them - years ago," she said jerkily. "If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed terribly flustered.' (OOTP "A Peck of Owls" p.34 UK edition) She doesn't specifically name James - Harry obviously thinks it's a possiblity but there is no concrete evidence.... Geoff Having just returned from a young people's weekend and finding 350 posts lined up. Do I ignore the "Yes he did/No he didn't" tennis match and concentrate on the handful of threads I'm trying to follow? A Time Turner would be useful! From LadySawall at aol.com Mon Jun 14 07:02:19 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:02:19 EDT Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape (and others!) Can't Get Over It Message-ID: <155.37415e32.2dfea77b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101157 In a message dated 06/13/2004 9:54:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Alla writes: > I am not even asking Snape to "get over it". I am asking him to realise that "Harry is not James" Well, Snape isn't the only one with that problem. Sirius also couldn't stop seeing James in Harry. I suspect that was an intentional parallel that JKR drew, to show us that it isn't just Snape's fixation--the boy is *eerily* like his father, so much so that anybody who felt strongly about James can't help but feel strongly about Harry as well. For that matter, is it just a strong parental instinct and his friendship with Ron that causes the Weasleys to effortlessly absorb Harry into their clan, or are they reacting to the James in him? What about DD's immediately taking to him, personally guiding and seeming to favor him--is he also remembering James? Does Lucius Malfoy hate Harry on sight solely because he is a rival to Draco, or is he somewhat projecting his James-hate as well? Bloodlines, halfblood, pureblood, 'Mudblood,' the numerous uncanny family resemblances, the inherited Life Debt, "bone of the father, unknowingly given"--ties of blood are extraordinarily important in JKR's universe. Though he is very much his own man in personality and outlook, in a certain sense, Harry *is* James. He carries the weight of all James' unfinished business. He benefits from James' friendships and good deeds. He also pays for James' sins and suffers at the hands of his enemies, all because James never got the chance to put those matters to rest. All the expectations that people had of James, they transfer to Harry, and it isn't right, or just, or even particularly logical--but that's how it is. Harry may never be free of the legacy of James Potter until he accepts that he has to put paid to all the things that James left hanging, and does so, for good or ill. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Mon Jun 14 07:18:28 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:18:28 EDT Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: <6a.40b519ec.2dfeab44@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101158 In a message dated 06/13/2004 3:53:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: (Snip another pro-Harry, anti-Snape oration by...) Darrin -- AND SNAPE IS STILL THE ADULT!!!! --- Jo Ann: All right, look. Adults aren't perfect. Neither are fifteen-year-olds. They've both had it rough. They're both scarred. We know in excruciating detail what Harry has suffered pretty much throughout his entire life, because we've been reading along. We don't know everything that's ever happened to Snape, and therefore we can't make a point-by-point comparison which would tell us whether his life was better, equally bad, or worse than Harry's. They've both behaved like brats, on numerous occasions and to varying degrees. Each has some valid reasons to dislike the other--if not in the beginning, then certainly by the time of OotP. Yes, Snape started the whole thing, but Harry regularly contributes to it. They both have the power to bring it to an end, or at the very least to turn down the heat. Neither chooses to exercise that power--I suspect because neither one really wants to. Comparing their behavior in the present time is an apples-and-oranges proposition. We don't know for sure what Snape would have done at age fifteen in the same situation, and we can't be certain that Harry at thirty-six(ish) will be any better adjusted or more responsible than Snape is now. (Given his downhill slide throughout OotP, and Sirius' death, I expect things to just get worse in the next book.) They both have redeeming qualities. We know more about Harry's because we ride around inside his brain. Perhaps we'll see more of Snape's later on. Or maybe we won't--we can't know until more books are published. Various people, both in the story and in RL, have their own reasons for liking or forgiving each character. Many people on both sides have valid points. They are coming at it from different life experiences which, in turn, have given them different values and priorities. Thus they inevitably reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. *Regardless* of whose fault it was--irrelevant, I say!--the memories are out of the Pensieve, the lessons were ended, and Sirius is dead. Can we please move on? Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 07:57:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:57:33 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101159 Darrin wrote : > Snape's views on Harry have nothing to do with the war. They have to > do with things that happened when he was a teenager. Del replies : How do you know that ? The way Snape told Harry that he was neither special nor important during his first Occlumency lesson, when all the evidence point to the contrary, indicated to me that Snape deeply resents Harry's role in the war. After all he, Snape, did, it was still Harry who got all the credit at the end of the first war, for something he didn't even do consciously. Harry became the Boy Who Lived, while Snape was just the Former DE or the Traitor, depending on people's side in the war. And it will be exactly the same in the war that's starting : no matter what Snape will do, it will still be Harry who will turn out to be the hero. For someone like Snape who craves recognition, I guess it's a bit hard to take. So IMO to say that Snape's dislike of Harry is ONLY linked to James is being quite blind to the extent of Snape and Harry's personal relationship. Darrin wrote : > Hagrid and McGonagall lost friends to their students' fathers. And > while I'm at it, Draco has done everything he can think of to get > Hagrid fired, and Hagrid still treats him professionally. Del replies : McGonagall is around 70, she was already 50-ish by the time the first war started, so I'm not surprised that she should be more forgiving and that she should have enough self-control as to not punish kids for their fathers' crimes. Hagrid is pretty old too, and he's half-giant. The simple fact that he's kept contact with humans for so long indicates that he's mastered his supposedly inherited angry and brutal feelings a long time ago, probably even in his childhood thanks to his father's upbringing. And I see his love of monsters as his way of keeping in touch with the wild side of his personality. Darrin wrote : > So maybe Snape was "shaped" by the war. (And let us also remember > which side of the war he started on.) But McGonagall and Hagrid were > actually fighting it when Snape's world was battling with James and > Sirius. Del replies : The WW was at war all the time that Snape and the Marauders were at Hogwarts. It's bound to have had an influence on them. And especially on Snape, since we know that he was friendly with older Slytherins who almost all turned out to be DEs, pretty much right after leaving school. That means that Snape was in contact with the war right from about 14 or 15, which means also that no, Snape's world was not confined to fighting James and Sirius (unlike Draco, but that's another post) : Snape had friends out there who were fighting. And yes he was in contact with the "wrong" side of the war, but the fact that he changed side after becoming a fighter himself indicates to me that he might not have had all the cards in hand when he made his initial decision. So I stick to what I said : Snape's personality has been deeply influenced by the LV war, much more so than most other characters, and we have to take that into account. I, Del, wrote : > > About kids paying for their fathers' sins : in France, we are > > barely starting to talk about the kids who were born during the > > WWII and who had a French mother and a German father, and we're > > horrified by what we're discovering. There was nothing more > > innocent than those kids, and yet many of them were treated in > > ways that would make the Dursleys' treatment of Harry look > > heavenly in comparison. Darrin commented : > There you go again. Anything to downplay the mental and physical > abuse Harry suffered, huh? > > And again, we're not talking about innocent kids when we're talking > about Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. (We don't know Nott too well) We're > talking about Hitler Youth. Del replies : Darrin, you're not even reading what I'm writing, are you ? 1. I wasn't comparing the German-fathered kids to any of the books' kids. I was explaining that making the kids pay for the fathers' sins is unfortunately a very human thing. Snape is nasty to do that, but he's just human. 2. I was in no way trying to downplay Harry's suffering. I was only looking for a comparison that everyone on this list could understand. Your jumping to the conclusion that I'm trying to demean Harry yet again is almost ridiculous and smells of paranoia. By the way, I mentioned previously that I like Harry *when I read the books*. Not much, but I do. It's the Harry you're trying to present on this list, Perfect!Harry, that I hate. 3. Comparing the Slytherin kids to Hitler Youth is ridiculous. The Hitler Youth program was a state-established program in which kids were embrigaded by force, where they were brainwashed and taught to revere only one person and one ideology, and where they were trained to blindly obey their leaders. Slytherin House comes nowhere close to that. For starters, if Draco adores anyone, it's his father, not LV. And I doubt that if anyone but Lucius told him to jump, he would ask "how high ?" And he'd be an awful soldier, coward as he is. So please stop comparing what's not comparable. Darrin wrote : > These brats have tried to get Hagrid fired AND they worked against > teachers while being members of the Inquisition Squad. > > They are starting to come into their own, sins-wise, and yet they > are STILL treated professionally. Del replies : In fact, Draco has only been doing what he saw his father do, and what he knows would please his father. Draco is still only his father's creature, and he most definitely has NOT come into his own yet, sin-wise or otherwise. And that might be the reason he's still treated professionally by his teachers : because he's so obviously only Lucius's puppet (and a bad one too : he's letting his own feelings of jealousy interfere with his father's orders to look fond of Harry). Darrin wrote : > I'm judging him as a teacher. Someone entrusted with responsibility. > I don't care if someone else is older. Are we REALLY saying that > Hagrid has more self-control than Snape? > > Yes, we are. > > Pretty pathetic on Snape's part. Del replies : HOW SO ??? How is it pathetic that Hagrid, a 60-something half-giant, shoud have more self-control than 30-something pureblood Snape ?? Hagrid HAS to have self-control, Snape doesn't. Hagrid will suffer harsh consequences if he doesn't keep his temper (that I don't even see he has anyway) in check, Snape won't. Hagrid is sensitive to love and trust given to him, Snape isn't. Hagrid is fundamentally happy with his life, Snape isn't. And so on. And as far as responsibilities go, we haven't seen that self-control and responsibilities go together in the WW (not that they go together in the RL either) : just look at Fudge, Umbridge, etc... (in fact it looks more like self-control is seen as something bad : if one doesn't show their emotions, they can't be trusted) And it's not because people are made teachers that they suddenly turn responsible. If all your teachers were responsible then you can count yourself lucky !! I know many of mine weren't, and I know why : because they are just human beings. Some friends of mine planned on becoming teachers when we were at university, and that scared the heck out of me, because I knew their many shortcomings, until I realised they would be no worse than many teachers I had. I, Del, wrote : > > You've said it, Snape is incapable of doing better. He's been bent > by everything that happened to him or that he did, and expecting him > to be normal is unrealistic. Darrin replied : > And yet we expect Harry to be. And we don't seem to have a problem > judging him. Del replies : Going back to Harry, are we ? No I'm not especially expecting Harry to be normal. I realise that he's been bent by his life, and that what's happening to him is only bending him further. And that's why I'm glad that JKR described him with faults, and making mistakes : because it's realistic. It makes me want to see if and how he's going to react to avoid ending up as another Snape full of pain and hatred. That's why, for example, I'm not ready to just brush away Harry's attempt at using the Cruciatus Curse : because it's fascinating to me, because I want to see if and how it's going to affect him, what he's going to do about it, etc... And that's why it makes me cringe when you try to convince me that Harry can do no wrong : it's unrealistic, and it's denying his story. Darrin wrote : > Oh, that's right. He treats the Creevey brothers badly. He gets into > a fight with Hermione over a broom. > > How dare he. Del replies : Those comments are so childish that I hope you're very young Darrin. May I remind you that this group is called "Harry Potter FOR GROWN UPS" ? Your attitude is not that of a grown-up. If you can't handle people with differing opinions, people who don't have the same sympathies as you have, people who don't share your every feeling, then you're going to suffer on this list indeed. Sorry for that, but I won't give in to your childish methods. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 08:33:22 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:33:22 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101160 Darrin, maybe I'm biased concerning Harry, but you're certainly biased concerning Snape. > > 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) > > Yes, he distracted Quirrell long enough for Hermione to finish the > job. If he hadn't fought Quirrell (yes, it was a fight), then Harry would have been flat on the floor before Hermione could say "Snape". And Snape wasn't counting on Hermione's help, or anyone's help for that matter. > > 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) > > Dumbledore showed up, making Snape's gesture pointless. Oh, so good intentions on Snape's part don't count, do they ? > > 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) > > We don't know what precipitated this. D-Dore might very well have > ordered him to do it. Funny. You're ready to stick to the facts when they seem to incriminate Snape, but you go into supposition when they speak in his favour. > > 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he > > might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) > > And he failed to listen to anything Harry, Hermione and Ron were > saying, nearly got two Order members killed, and nearly took Harry's > godfather away from him. Did you ever stop to think what would have happened if the kids *had* been fooled and Lupin and Black were indeed evil ? Snape is a warrior : act first to restore safety, think later. I don't think *anyone* would have listened to the kids anyway, what they were saying was too incredible. And finally : the Order had not been re-formed yet. > > 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) > > Had Snape left Harry down there with the Dementors AND a werewolf, > his job wouldn't have been worth 10 cents. I never said Snape didn't > fulfill basic teacher duties (except when Hermione got hit with a > curse) but c'mon, that's not above and beyond. How would *anyone* have known what happened if the kids had died ? And there's no rule saying that teachers have to risk their lives to save the lives of reckless students who got themselves into troubles. > And besides, Harry's work later saved the unconscious Snape, so > let's call that even. So once again, Snape's good intention doesn't count, huh ? > > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) > > On orders from D-Dore. WHAT ??? Where ever did you read that DD ordered Snape to reveal his Mark ?? > > 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger > > (OOP) > > Had Snape kept that to himself, what good is he to the Order? If Sirius had truly been in danger, it would have been his own fault, for getting out of his safe place. The Order is in no obligation to risk itself to save one of its members. In fact, the Order has the obligation to *protect* itself : remember how the Twins wanted to go and visit their father at St Mungo's, and Sirius had to forcefully keep them at GP ? Once again, I'm not saying that Snape is a nice guy. But dismissing all the good things about him, even if they are few, isn't fair treatment. Del From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 05:28:02 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:28:02 -0000 Subject: Why Characters Do What--No Fault--Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101161 Thank you very much Lee! I enjoyed your character analysis thoroughly -- not that I learned anything new (I'm a HP nerd! NOOO!!), but it was good to be reminded of all the characters from impartial perspective. >>> Lee: Guess what I'm trying to emphasize is that yes, one might be to some extent a product of one's environment, but there's also that matter of choice. We can choose to be miserable or we can choose to seek out some good in the dregs life has dealt. <<< Bren: Something I learned from my first-year Biology class: "Phenotype = Genotype x Environment" In cases like this: - Phenotype = one's ultimate decision/action/judgment - Genotype = one's personality/persona/past experience - Environment = external circumstances >>> Lee: As one poster said, the characters are an awful lot like people we knew in school or know now. Our likes and dislikes are colored by those images and not everyone is going to like the same people for the same reasons. That's okay, Folks! <<< Bren: No character is perfect; everyone has faults and flaws. Better yet, everyone is from different background or experience, and for some we find more connection to, and some we don't. That is what makes all HP characters so REAL, and that is why the series are such a huge success! Our liking to certain characters come from our own experience and values taught by parents/teachers/peers, thus it's no wonder our opinions differ so much. This difference must be respected, for otherwise it will suggest that one doesn't respect the identity of another party altogether. As long as each side presents arguments with canon accordingly, there isn't too much to do anymore. >>> Lee: Let's just agree to disagree, respecting the opinions of the ones with whom we may disagree. I call it constructive disagreement. :-) <<< Bren: Hear, hear!!! Sounds great to me. >>> Lee: Love you all, and I've left a box of Honeydukes Sampler on Flitwick's desk. :-) Eat up! Bren: Lucky Flitwick, I could really use some of those Honeydukes Samples... Bren, who thinks "Who-is-the-adult" debate is becoming bigger than DD- LV war... From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jun 14 06:53:20 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:53:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101162 > Carolyn wrote: > Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't think > she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to live > with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation that > his wife and son were magical. > paul: You may be right. But can you imagine the emotional burden of HP if he watch the LV killing the Dursleys. Imagine the possibilities. HP torn between an ill joy and guilt for the death of the Dursleys. A definite rise in the tragedy meter of the Saga. From bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 03:45:08 2004 From: bookworm857158367 at yahoo.com (bookworm857158367) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:45:08 -0000 Subject: James Is Dead And That's Why Snape Can't Get Over It And Move On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101163 Alla: > "Any canon support for that? I think he is still confused about that > fact that Harry is not James." Harry's illicitly seeing Snape's worst memory in the Pensieve would give him reason to hate Harry for himself, wouldn't it? Then there's the forced sharing of memories that neither of them really wanted. Snape probably hates Harry for catching flashes of his parents fighting, himself being laughed at by girls, etc. Harry violates rules and gets away with it because he saved the day by doing so -- just like his father. Snape would hate that. I think Snape knows very well that Harry isn't James, but the kid looks almost exactly like someone who bullied him during adolescence and humiliated him by saving his life. He's bound to have a negative reaction to the boy because of that. James also grew up to be well- liked and heroic and got the girl while Snape has the kind of personality that turns everyone off. Now he sees similarities to James in Harry's personality and talents and in the acclaim he has been gifted with. Harry's LIKE James. I think James had everything Snape wanted, and now he sees Harry having everything he wants. bookworm From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 14 08:59:03 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:59:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: <26.49f0d65f.2dfec2d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101164 In a message dated 6/13/2004 11:11:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: Funny, I have yet to see Snape save Harry's life, at least on his own. He held off Quirrell's curse for Hermione, but Snape did nothing to save Harry in PoA. Harry was in no danger. ======= Sherrie here: "Held off Quirrell's curse FOR Hermione"? When does Hermione ask him to do that? On which page? To the contrary, Hermione thought it was Snape who was CASTING the curse on Harry's broom - that's why she set him on fire. No, sorry - that countercurse was Sev's own idea. As for PoA, keep in mind that, though the reality turned out otherwise, the PERCEPTION on the part of everyone, even Dumbledore, was that this mad mass murderer was after Harry - a suspected top aide to Voldie, who supposedly thought killing Harry would bring him back. Add to that, in going to the Shrieking Shack after Harry, he was also facing what has to be among his own worst fears - Lupin, on the night of the full moon, with no Wolfsbane Potion...which was very DEFINITELY a concrete danger to Harry and the others. No, Snape isn't a NICE man. He's not a NICE teacher. He's rather a throwback to the old Victorian schoolmasters, though he's never physically harmed any of his students. He'll never be Mr. Fluffy Bunny - but that doesn't mean he can't be a GOOD man. Yes, he dislikes Harry - yet he still carries out his duty to protect him, desite Harry's own rashness and lack of forethought. Can he be cruel? Yes. Can he be petty? No question. Can he be vindictive? Oh, with the best of them. Will he turn out to have a heart of gold? I doubt it. That doesn't change the fact that he HAS been working to protect Harry all along. Give him his due, at least! Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 14 09:07:43 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:07:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: <2b.59d99b4f.2dfec4df@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101165 In a message dated 6/13/2004 11:53:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) On orders from D-Dore. ============= Sherrie here: Um - when? WHEN did Dumbledore ORDER Snape to do that? To the contrary, I'd have thought Dumbledore would have referred that Snape NOT reveal his DE past (or remind Fudge of it, if he happened to have been at Karkaroff's hearing). No, I think that was Sev's own idea - and an oddly-impulsive act for a Slytherin. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 05:03:27 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:03:27 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101166 >>> Vivian wrote: > JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/2004 > > Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do > it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep > reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. > > > vmonte here: > > JKR loves the character of Sirius. What would be the reason she > needed to kill this character off? It seems to me that DD tried > several times to save Sirius, by making Harry and Hermione time- > travel, and by keeping Sirius at GP. DD said he made a mistake with Sirius -- he realizes that he should not have forced Sirius to stay at GP. If DD has time-traveled I think that he has changed some events. And I think that he has changed some past events for the better and some for the worse. I don't think that time-travel is as rigid as some fans believe. > > What if DD has been changing history through time-travel but Sirius > messed up his plans by changing himself from secret keeper. > > And what if Harry time-travels back and young Sirius realizes that > his actions are what caused Voldemort to find GH. If Sirius were to find out that in the future he was going to die no matter what DD or Harry did, he may change what he does in the past. I'm not saying > that Lily and James survive, but maybe teenage Harry was also meant > to die at GH. Sirius may sacrifice himself in the past to make sure > that teenage Harry Potter lives. Sirius would then die in a nobler > and more fitting way. <<< Bren here: Hi Vivian, As much as I find your Harry-at-GH-17-years-ago theory cool and original, I'm very confused at the same time. Mainly because I haven't got the full grasp of time-travel concept. Are you suggesting that perhaps Sirius will remain as James' Secret-Keeper if DD turns the time back? But if he did, how would Voldemort come after HArry? Or maybe Sirius will still make Peter Secret-Keeper, knowing that he'll betray them, and go to GH to protect the teenage Harry? So then according to your speculation, it will be Sirius' voice that we heard saying "Lily, take HArry away, I'll take care of..." (apology for not having the exact quote). Then he somehow escapes, gets trapped by Peter, sent to Azkaban and re-live those HORRIBLE 12 years again? It sounds cool, but also so very confusing. But I have a question: this means that Sirius would have to be ALIVE to go back in time and change his actions, no? AS far as we know, the "original" Sirius was somewhere else, thus he didn't arrive at GH until it was too late. There is only one time line, but for one to go back and create a duplicate copy of oneself... Then how is Sirius' death at DoM helpful in relation to what happened at GH many years ago? What do you think happened to James if we believe that James wasn't at GH that night? Perhaps James died earlier on the same day? If Sirius had the two-way mirrow with James then I think he would have checked up on him like every hour (I would have if it was my best friend). Or maybe he wasn't allowed to do so now that JAmes/Lily were under Fidelius Charm? Do you have any clue how the Fidelius Charm actually works? Sometimes I imagine, 'Oy, what if DD had become their SEcret- Keeper...' Boys can be so stubborn, sighs... Bren, who is astonished that no one has yet replied to this cool thread :P From isilvalacirca at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 05:45:31 2004 From: isilvalacirca at yahoo.com (Lanthiriel S) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That Horrid Boy (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: <1087175608.5328.98705.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040614054531.3478.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101167 Batchevra wrote: >There was one more thing I was thinking of, which is >Lily and James got >together in their 7th year, we don't know when this >conversation that Petunia heard took place. Was it >before or after Lily started dating James. It is too >vague and the fact that Petunia never answers >Harry's challenge that makes me think that it might >have been someone else. When I first read that part of OotP, I put my book down for a moment, looked at the ceiling and cried: "We were right! We were right!" I was referring, of course, to those of us who are unrepentant believers in Snape/Lily. Only after I'd had a moment to take a breath did it occur to me that Petunia might simply have been referring to James. But somehow I don't think so. I'm going to stick with my initial reaction on this one. I mean, doesn't greasy Snape strike you as the kind of boy the immaculately clean Petunia would define as "horrid"? Lanthiriel S __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From bd-bear at verizon.net Mon Jun 14 08:21:50 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:21:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101168 >>>From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) [mailto:catlady at wicca.net] ___StrawberryJAMM (nice name!) wrote: How did "Scabbers" end up in the hands of the Weasley family?___ People figure he knew the Weasleys, a large, poor, kindhearted family, would take in a stray pet, so he went there and made nice to a child, probably young Percy, who couldn't afford to buy a pet. When the parents found out, they let him keep it, out of some mixture of softheartedness and figuring that rats aren't expensive to feed and don't require a lot of upkeep. <<< I was under the impression that Pettigrew went to the Weasleys because he knew Arthur worked at the MoM and could, by being around them and listening in, monitor whether or not V-Mort was regaining power or if something were to happen with Sirius. Barbara aka bd-bear From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon Jun 14 08:26:50 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:26:50 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101169 > Neri wrote: > > Just, say, going for less painful > memories at start Christelle: "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Toughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing [...]It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under, certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their finding correctly." Who said that Snape could *choose* the memories? Neri: >and grant a small praise here and > there? Very extreme, I know, but it's for the cause, after all. > > > Neri Christelle: When McGonagall said "That was excellent, Potter!", it's considered by Harry (or Jo) like a "extravagant praise" after the first task in GOF. "Excellent" doesn't seem like extravagant for me. And some could think that he deserved more than an excellent. it was a dragon after all. The impact of the words differ according to who's talking. If Vector give points to Gryffindor, it seems normal. If Snape give points to Gryfffindor, the first instinct would be 'who are you and where's the real Snape'. One point from Snape would look like a miracle, something 'extravagant'. It's not to say that praise from Snape was hiding...in fact yes, it what I say: p472 (UK version): "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been. You managed to stop me eventually[...]." p522 : "Well, Potter...that was certainly an improvement[...]I don't remember telling you to use a Shield Charm...but there is no doubt than it was effective..." Christelle From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 10:34:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:34:03 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101170 Sienna wrote: I actually took this quote to mean the mental connection between Harry and Voldemort in OotP. I might be wrong, but I think JKR said that when the CoS movie was released and prior to OotP. She said something along the lines of the movie coming close to giving away something that would be very important in future books. Given that I believe the books are set up in a sort of hexagram (with CoS and OotP mirroring each other ... if anyone is interested in this theory, I posted in some months back under Uncovering the Hidden Pattern), I took this quote to refer to the connection between H and V that is first touched upon in CoS and that became the main plot point in OotP (but I could of course, be wrong). vmonte responds: I am very interested! I would like to read your post. Do you happen to have the number? vivian From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 14 10:36:40 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:36:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > > Neri now: > Kneasy, your analysis of Snape has a slight consistency problem. If > Snape doesn't hate Harry that much, and all the Harry-goading in the > books is just the DD/Snape double act, why couldn't Snape realize > that his usual teaching method doesn't work for the Occlumency > lessons? If destroying LV is his top priority, couldn't he just > try a different approach? Just, say, going for less painful > memories at start and grant a small praise here and > there? Very extreme, I know, but it's for the cause, after all. Or > didn't DD tell him how important are the Occlumency lessons for > defeating LV? In that case, maybe DD doesn't trust Snape all that > much after all? Kneasy: Consistency? Well, I did add a caveat in the post you quote: That there is probably a 'hierachy' of loyalty and the anti-Voldy item is top of the list, BUT - it's best not to strain it too far, which could happen if Harry keeps on pushing. And Harry pushed. OK, we can keep on about Snape's teaching methods 'til the cows come home, and it's obvious that there are at least two factions and that they will probably never agree. No problem. However, I will ask - has Snape *ever* been seen to teach differently? It looks as if he treated Occlumency more or less the same as any other lesson. Secondly, Snape cooperated in following DD's wishes and giving up his time to instruct Harry. Unfortunately Harry didn't comply with DD's wishes, even when they were specifically spelled out "You must study Occlumency as hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor Snape tells you and practice it every night.... Remember - close your mind -" (OoP chap 27). Some believe that Snape should have kept on teaching no matter what provocation Harry threw at him - "It's the adult thing to do," is their argument. I don't agree. Being a punch-bag for Harry's frustrations, disobedience, prevarication and evasion without imposing sanctions is not adult behaviour IMO. There comes a time when a line has to be drawn; Harry crossed it. Sanctions were inevitable. To act otherwise would have sent the message that what is unacceptable behaviour solely depends on Harry's definition of it. Snape deliberately safeguards some of his memories from accidental exposure by transferring them to the Pensieve. First chance he gets, Harry dives in. What does this say about Harry? That everybody and everything is of no account when compared to own his idle curiosity. He knows what the Pensieve is, he knows that Snape put those memories in it to keep them private. That's irrelevant to Harry. Snape must be hiding something from him, who cares about Snape's feelings anyway? Well, it ain't irrelevant to Snape; it's the last straw. If I'd been Snape, I'd have strangled the little shit. > Neri: > Here is DD's analysis of Snape. You might say this is just more > double act, but I find it more consistent with the facts: > > "I trust Severus Snape, but I forgot ? another old man's mistake ? > that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor > Snape could overcome his feelings about your father ? I was wrong." > > Why is Snape failing to overcome his feelings about James relevant > for teaching Harry Occlumency? Do you have an explanation other than > the obvious one? > Kneasy: I find it interesting that DD makes no mention of the obvious - that Harry's feelings for Snape show no sign of being overcome either. It's good fun to pile all the blame on Snape, but when has Harry ever shown signs of being willing to compromise, to put his feelings on the back-burner and take the larger picture into consideration? In other words to do what he's supposed to do instead of what he wants to do? Besides, given the circumstances of the little chat (Sirius dead only an hour before), it's unlikely that DD would have considered it productive or kind to place some of the blame onto Harry's own shoulders. The "wounds too deep for the healing" is possibly a pointer to something yet to be revealed. I never did consider that the Grey Underpants Affair was sufficient motivation for his emnity of James. It reads as if it's just one skirmish among many. Highly embarassing but hardly life-changing. The 'Prank' was mostly down to Sirius, and if Snape is as true a Slytherin as he appears then not being able to pay off a life debt to someone he despised would hardly be a cause of ever-lasting bitterness. Doesn't seem credible somehow. > Neri: > I agree that Snape is a very complex and interesting character. I > agree he is (for some unknown reason) loyal to the plan to destroy > LV. I also think he is very emotional and he hates Harry's guts. This > is exactly what makes him so interesting for the story. Kneasy: Yep, delving into Snape's psyche and motivations is the most fascinating aspect of the books IMO. I look forward to more revelations. As to who's reading him best - who knows? But it does make for some lively posts. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 11:18:29 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:18:29 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101174 Bren wrote: But I have a question: this means that Sirius would have to be ALIVE to go back in time and change his actions, no? AS far as we know, the "original" Sirius was somewhere else, thus he didn't arrive at GH until it was too late. There is only one time line, but for one to go back and create a duplicate copy of oneself... Then how is Sirius' death at DoM helpful in relation to what happened at GH many years ago? vmonte responds: Thanks for the post. Sorry, I'm not explaining myself well. I think that Sirius is dead. Let's say that Harry goes back in time and meets up with young Sirius. Maybe Harry miscalculates and goes back too far, to when his parents were in school. (It would be funny actually if Sirius and Harry were both walking around the campus with the maraurder's map, and then found each other. What did Sirius say in the PoA movie--something about the map never lies?!) Anyway, Sirius somehow learns of all the events that have happened in Harry's life (or he figures it out). Sirius then makes a conscious decision to change history. He changes his actions so that he dies during that earlier period in time and not later, after being in Azkaban. (It seems to me that Sirius was going to die no matter what DD or anyone tried to do. I think that Sirius would prefer to die on his terms rather than live the next 13 years in prison and then to die after he comes out.) I've also been thinking that it would be really awful for Harry to go back in time and witness his parents death again. Perhaps he has only one shot of going back, and he miscalculates, going too far. He ends up at Hogwarts during James school days, bumping into Sirius. The voice we hear at GH may very well then be Sirius. (Or Sirius changes history so that Harry is no longer the person we hear at GH, it is now Sirius.) By the way I think that DD has been time-traveling through-out the books. I've started putting together a list of curious statements/situations. vivian From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 11:21:55 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:21:55 -0000 Subject: That Horrid Boy (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: <20040614054531.3478.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lanthiriel S wrote: > Batchevra wrote: > >There was one more thing I was thinking of, which is > >Lily and James got > >together in their 7th year, we don't know when this > >conversation that Petunia heard took place. Was it > >before or after Lily started dating James. It is too > >vague and the fact that Petunia never answers > >Harry's challenge that makes me think that it might > >have been someone else. > > > When I first read that part of OotP, I put my book > down for a moment, looked at the ceiling and cried: > "We were right! We were right!" I was referring, of > course, to those of us who are unrepentant believers > in Snape/Lily. Only after I'd had a moment to take a > breath did it occur to me that Petunia might simply > have been referring to James. But somehow I don't > think so. I'm going to stick with my initial reaction > on this one. I mean, doesn't greasy Snape strike you > as the kind of boy the immaculately clean Petunia > would define as "horrid"? > > Lanthiriel S Meri here: I don't know. "Horrid" just might be a word she used in reference to any boy from the WW, whether he be "greasy" like Snape or, presumably, relatively clean like James, slightly ratty like Peter, handsome and dashing like Sirius, etc. She does, after all, call Lily her "dratted sister", so I'm thinking that this is one of JKR's red herrings: we are meant to wonder who she is referring to, but it is almost certainly James. (And if you want another reason why I think it is almost certainly *not* Snape, just reread the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter. I don't think that even kindhearted Lily would have had anything to do with Snape after that.) Meri - wondering now just exactly what else Aunt Petunia knows about the WW (I had to read that line about Azkaban three times to make sure that Aunt Petunia had really said it!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 11:26:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:26:02 -0000 Subject: What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101176 Pippin wrote: > > Have we been shown members of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or > Hufflepuff who might respond to a gospel of hate? We have. As > for the Chamber of Secrets, the Room of Requirement is just as > scary. Wonder what would happen if you went in there and > asked for a library of Dark Arts manuals and a monster that > would obey your commands? > Potioncat: Whoa! And I thought Cuaron made Hogwarts seem creepy! (Sorry for the one liner, but Pippin has come up with a very good and very scary thought!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 11:30:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:30:03 -0000 Subject: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > > Pippin wrote: > > No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's > > wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two > > Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? > > > Alla wrote: > > Oh, G-d , Pippin, for some reason that line had me in hysterics. Of > > course we can have two Wormtails. You know, special - buy one > > Wormtail, get another one free. :o) > > > Neri wrote: > > Good idea. We can also have two Siriuses. This way we can have one > > ESE!Sirius who got killed (by ESE!Lupin, naturally) and one good > > Sirius who is alive. That should satisfy everybody. > > > Mandy here: > Get thee gone to fandom! The lot of you! ;-) Potioncat: This of course gives us two Snapes: The Snape some hate to love and the Snape others love to hate. (But does that give us two twins or four?) OK, I'm off to fandom. ;-) From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Mon Jun 14 11:50:16 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:50:16 +0200 Subject: Is Lupin ambiguous? was: What's subversive? (long) Message-ID: <009B49C1-BDF9-11D8-A74C-000A95665DE8@m4x.org> No: HPFGUIDX 101178 Pippin which brings me to my main point. David gives me far too much credit. I did not invent the ambiguities surrounding the character of Remus Lupin. JKR did that. All I did was catalogue them -- and suggest a possible explanation. It seems to me that in Lupin's case the subversive reading is to deny that the ambiguities exist or to claim that they are accidental. Now Olivier At the end of my message is a collection of all the appearances of Lupin in OoP, just to assess if indeed Lupin is ambiguous or not. I urge the interested reader to skim through them. Well, let's see now: is Lupin ambiguous? Well, maybe he is, but the least we can say is that the non subversive way to read him is the calm, quiet, intellectual guy with a certain talent for human relation that He's the one that finds the words to tell Harry just enough about Voldemort, he seems very close to both Sirius and Molly and he is obviously trusted by Moody and Tonks (look down all the references of Moody and Lupin talking about Order business). He's courageous, saving Harry's life twice and Neville's life once during the battle. Pippin has argued that Lupin might want Harry to continue Occlumency in order to weaken Harry (it is true that Harry is particularly weak after the Occumency lessons). However, Sirius is very concerned about the end of Occlumency too. In fact, he is the first to react, before Lupin, when Harry says the lessons have ended. We can suspect that Sirius and Lupin both know from the start about Dumbledore's plan to trap Voldemort in the Mom (look up the fleeting look between them during the diner). He has also argued that Lupin's weak points are his cowardice and his desire to be liked. However, in all the references above, I fail to discern such traits. Even in the Pensieve scene, it is Peter and the pair James/Sirius who seems very concerned about being liked. Remus is utterly absent, he reads and wants to do some homework. Maybe Lupin will turn out to be evil, maybe he will be a traitor to the Order, just like Peter was the first time. However, to say that this is the natural way to read the character seems to me to be an incredible stretch. Olivier PS: Pippin, you left aside David quotation of Elkins: Do you personally recognize yourself in Elkins characterization of the subversive reader.? Nah, maybe that's too personal a question. References: A compendium on Lupin's role in OoP. Read only as a reference. 'Harry, what form does your Patronus take?' Lupin provides a mean to recognize Harry. Then he shakes Harry hand "watching him closely." Later, he answers Harry's question about their departure and introduce the other guards. We have a hint of his (possible) Legilimency power 'a surprising number of people have volunteered to come and get you,' said Lupin, as though he had read Harry's mind; the corners of his mouth twitched slightly. Lupin answers some more question about their trip then write a letter to the Dursleys telling them Harry's safe. Harry asks him if he has to come back and 'Lupin smiled but made no answer,' a very possible hint that Lupin at least know about the blood protection. There follows some exchange while they are flying. Then Lupin answers (or rather does not answer) a question about Grimmauld Place. Lupin and Tonks carry Harry's trunk 'between them'. As a stylistic note, 'said quietly' come quite often after Lupin. It is Lupin that open the door of Grimmauld Place, and he is sealing it too afterwards. Lupin and Mrs. Weasley 'dart forward' to shut Mrs. Black out. It is Lupin and Sirius who finally manage to do this. Later on, at the beginning of the meal, Lupin makes a nice comment on Molly's food to ease the tension after Molly has mentioned Percy. During the meal, he has an 'intense discussion' about goblins with Mr. Weasley and Bill. He points out that the goblins may join Voldemort if offered freedom rather than gold. At the end of the meal, Sirius mentions Voldemort and 'Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary.' In the following exchange between Molly and Sirius, Lupin's eyes are 'fixed on Sirius.' When he finally speaks, after Arthur he says that 'Personally,' said Lupin quietly, looking away from Sirius at last, as Mrs Weasley turned quickly to him, hopeful that finally she was about to get an ally, 'I think it better that Harry gets the facts -not all the facts, Molly, but the general picture - from us, rather than a garbled version from ... others.' And there is a comment indicating that Harry is convinced he knows about the Extendable Ears. His expression is 'mild.' A few seconds later, the tension is palpable between Molly and Sirius. Lupin's reaction 'Molly, you're not the only person at this table who cares about Harry,' said Lupin sharply. 'Sirius, sit down.' [...] 'I think Harry ought to be allowed a say in this,' Lupin continued, 'he's old enough to decide for himself.' Ginny leaves, the Portrait screams again and once again it is Lupin that deals with it. There follows the discussion on what Voldemort's up to. 'More than he thinks we do, anyway,' said Lupin. 'Or rather, you messed it up for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile. 'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.' 'Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea,' said Lupin, 'and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate.' Up to that point, Lupin is the main source of information, others will speak afterwards. For the sake of exhaustivity, I mention that Lupin says 'We are doing our best' in the following discussion. But it is him who tells Harry 'Deep down, Fudge knows Dumbledore's much cleverer than he is a much more powerful wizard, and in the early days of his Ministry he was forever asking Dumbledore for help and advice,' said Lupin. 'But it seems he's become fond of power, and much more confident. He loves being Minister for Magic and he's managed to convince himself that he's the clever one and Dumbledore's simply stirring up trouble for the sake of it.' 'You see the problem,' said Lupin. 'While the Ministry insists there is nothing to fear from Voldemort it's hard to convince people he's back, especially as they really don't want to believe it in the first place. What's more, the Ministry's leaning heavily on the Daily Prophet not to report any of what they're calling Dumbledore's rumour-mongering, so most of the wizarding community are completely unaware any things happened, and that makes them easy targets for the Death Eaters if they're using the Imperius Curse.' Of course this just precedes the 'And I'm not a very popular dinner guest with most of the community,' said Lupin. 'It's an occupational hazard of being a werewolf.' The he resumes his information feeding role They're trying to discredit him,' said Lupin. 'Didn't you see the Daily Prophet last week? They reported that he'd been voted out of the Chairmanship of the International Confederation of Wizards because he's getting old and losing his grip, but it's not true; he was voted out by Ministry wizards after he made a speech announcing Voldemorts return. They've demoted him from Chief Warlock on the Wizengamot - that's the Wizard High Court - and they're talking about taking away his Order of Merlin, First Class, too.' Lupin's next mention is in the following sentence. 'What's he after apart from followers?' Harry asked swiftly. He thought he saw Sirius and Lupin exchange the most fleeting of looks before Sirius answered. And just after that 'No.' It was not Mrs Weasley who spoke this time, but Lupin. The Order is comprised only of overage wizards,' he said. 'Wizards who have left school,' he added, as Fred and George opened their mouths. There are dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any of you ... I think Molly's right, Sirius. We've said enough.' That's the end of the discussion. Lupin appears next during Grimmauld Place house-keeping. 'Tonks joined them for a memorable afternoon in which they found a murderous old ghoul lurking in an upstairs toilet, and Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius but who left it for long periods to do mysterious work for the Order, helped them repair a grandfather clock that had developed the unpleasant habit of shooting heavy bolts at passers-by.' On the day of the hearing, Lupin is in the kitchen 'as if waiting for Harry' alongside Tonks, Sirius and the Weasleys. Lupin asks question to Tonks about someone at work. He later addresses Harry The law's on your side,' said Lupin quietly. 'Even underage wizards are allowed to use magic in life-threatening situations.' 'Good luck,' said Lupin. Tm sure it will be fine.' Next time we see Lupin, he's at the party for Ron and Hermione. Harry spends some times with him and Sirius but first time he speaks he says 'I think Dumbledore might have hoped I would be able to exercise some control over my best friends,' said Lupin. 'I need scarcely say that 1 failed dismally.' Afterwards, he discusses elf-rights with Hermione. The Harry surprises Lupin and Kingsley discussing prefects appointment. Lupin states that Dumbledore has he's reasons. Lupin then banishes Molly's boggart. 'Molly,' said Lupin bleakly, walking over to her. 'Molly don't ..." Next second, she was sobbing her heart out on Lupin's shoulder. 'Molly, it was just a Boggart,' he said soothingly, patting her on the head, 'just a stupid Boggart ...' 'D-d - don't tell Arthur,' Mrs Weasley was gulping now, mopping her eyes frantically with her cuffs. 'I d - d - don't want him to know ... being silly ...' Lupin handed her a handkerchief and she blew her nose. 'Molly that's enough; said Lupin firmly. 'This isn't like last time. The Order are better prepared, we've got a head start, we know what Voldemorts up to -' Mrs Weasley gave a little squeak of fright at the sound of the name. 'Oh, Molly, come on, it's about time you got used to hearing his name -look, I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time. You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one ...' 'And as for who's going to look after Ron and Ginny if you and Arthur died,' said Lupin, smiling slightly, 'what do you think we'd do, let them starve?' Lupin is later to be seen at King's Cross, where he was guarding Fred, George and Ginny. 'Well, look after yourselves,' said Lupin, shaking hands all round. He reached Harry last and gave him a clap on the shoulder. 'You too. Harry. Be careful.' We see again Lupin months later, although characters often discuss him There are some ten references to him in the period (Harry suggesting he could teach the DA, Sirius mentioning that Umbridge's laws have made life hard for him, Dean saying he was the best DADA teacher they ever had...). Lupin is seen at Christmas, where he offerd Harry a joined present with Sirius: a book DADA. Lupin spends long moments with Molly cheering her up. Lupin is then part of the escort when they visit Arthur. He visits his fellow werewolf. And he's once again in the escort when they all go back to Hogwarts. 'Look after yourselves,' said Lupin, shaking hands all round and reaching Harry last. 'And listen..." he lowered his voice while the rest of them exchanged last-minute goodbyes with Tonks, 'Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens and we all - Sirius included - want you to learn to protect yourself, so work hard, all right?' Then comes the Pensieve event. Remus is of course very different her, but let's see anyway. 'Loved it,' said Lupin briskly. 'Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question.' 'Think I did,' said Lupin seriously, as they joined the crowd thronging around the front doors eager to get out into the sunlit grounds. 'One: he's sitting on my chair. Two: he's wearing my clothes. Three: his name's Remus Lupin.' 'Keep your voice down,' implored Lupin. By the lakes, James plays with the Snitch, Sirius looks handsome and haughty and Remus reads a book. Peter watches James play. 'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got Transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me. Here..." and he held out his book. And then when James notices Snape Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows. During the Snivellus incident, Lupin barely stops reading. He does not stop and does not laugh when James mocks Snape. Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily. Harry then tries to contact Sirius and fins Lupin. 'Harry!' he said, looking thoroughly shocked. 'What are you -what's happened, is everything all right?' 'I'll call him,' said Lupin, getting to his feet, still looking perplexed, 'he went upstairs to look for Kreacher, he seems to be hiding in the attic again...' And there follows the discussion about James Then Lupin said quietly, 'I wouldn't like you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen -' Lupin looked sideways at Sirius, then said, 'Look, Harry, what you've got to understand is that your father and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did - everyone thought they were the height of cool - if they sometimes got a bit carried away -' 'If we were sometimes arrogant little berks, you mean,' said Sirius. Lupin smiled. 'Was he playing with the Snitch?' said Lupin eagerly. But Lupin shook his head. 'Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?' he said. 'Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?' 'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin. 'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' 'Now you mention it,' said Lupin, a faint crease between his eyebrows, 'how did Snape react when he found you'd seen all this?' Harry tells and 'Are you serious, Harry?' said Lupin quickly. 'He's stopped giving you lessons?' 'If anyone's going to tell Snape it will be me!' he said firmly. 'But Harry, first of all, you're to go back to Snape and tell him that on no account is he to stop giving you lessons ? when Dumbledore hears -' 'Harry there is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency!' said Lupin sternly. 'Do you understand me? Nothing!' Next time we see Lupin, it's at the battle in the MoM. It is worth mentioning that he defends Harry and Neville by jumping between them and Malfoy. Next thing we see, Lupin grabs Harry and prevents him to jump through the veil. 'We can still reach him -' Harry struggled hard and viciously, but Lupin would not let go... There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone.' `He can't come back, Harry,' said Lupin, his voice breaking as he struggled to contain Harry. `He can't come back, because he's d-' Lupin holds him for a few minutes Harry was no longer struggling against Lupin, who maintained a precautionary grip on his arm nevertheless. `Here,' said Lupin quietly, and pointing his wand at Neville's legs he said, `Finite.' The spell was lifted: Neville's legs fell back to the floor and remained still. Lupin's face was pale. `Let's - let's find the others. Where are they all, Neville?' Lupin turned away from the archway as he spoke. It sounded as though every word was causing him pain. `Harry - no!' cried Lupin, but Harry had already ripped his arm from Lupin's slackened grip. Finally, Lupin is part of the delegation that speak to the Dursleys. `Hello, Harry' said Lupin, as Mrs Weasley let go of Harry and turned to greet Hermione. `Hi,' said Harry `I didn't expect ... what are you all doing here? 'Well,' said Lupin with a slight smile, `we thought we might have a little chat with your aunt and uncle before letting them take you home.' `- And make no mistake, we'll hear about it,' added Lupin pleasantly. `Take care, Harry,' said Lupin quietly. `Keep in touch.' ____________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 11:38:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:38:44 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101179 Alla wrote: > > And Hat could have its ulteriour motives wanting to place Harry > there. I don't know- changing Slytherin House for the better from > inside? Potioncat: The Sorting Hat said Slytherin would make him great. Can anyone work out how that would have played? I cannot imagine Harry Potter in the Slytherin dorm with Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Especially with Snape as the Head of House. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 11:38:59 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:38:59 -0000 Subject: That Horrid Boy (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101180 > > When I first read that part of OotP, I put my book > > down for a moment, looked at the ceiling and cried: > > "We were right! We were right!" I was referring, of > > course, to those of us who are unrepentant believers > > in Snape/Lily. Only after I'd had a moment to take a > > breath did it occur to me that Petunia might simply > > have been referring to James. But somehow I don't > > think so. I'm going to stick with my initial reaction > > on this one. I mean, doesn't greasy Snape strike you > > as the kind of boy the immaculately clean Petunia > > would define as "horrid"? > > > > Lanthiriel S > > > Meri here: I don't know. "Horrid" just might be a word she used in > reference to any boy from the WW, whether he be "greasy" like Snape > or, presumably, relatively clean like James, slightly ratty like > Peter, handsome and dashing like Sirius, etc. She does, after all, > call Lily her "dratted sister", so I'm thinking that this is one of > JKR's red herrings: we are meant to wonder who she is referring to, > but it is almost certainly James. (And if you want another reason > why I think it is almost certainly *not* Snape, just reread > the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter. I don't think that even > kindhearted Lily would have had anything to do with Snape after > that.) > Meri - wondering now just exactly what else Aunt Petunia knows about > the WW (I had to read that line about Azkaban three times to make > sure that Aunt Petunia had really said it!) Meri, I have to agree with you on this one. What Snape called Lily was a terrible insult. Considering that when this happened it was the end of the fifth year, because they had just finished their exams. Is it really possible for Lily to some how completly forgive Snape for what he said and date him in the sixth year, then start dating James in year seven? Even if that was possible, why would Snape date a muggle-born? We all know how badly that is frowned upon while in Slytherin. Also, Meri I would think that Petunia knows quite a bit more than she is letting on about the WW. When Lily went home every summer at the end of term, where did she go....well home of course. Home to Petunia, where I am sure she no doubt recalled the whole school year to the entire house. That would be 7 summers of knowledge for Petunia...Just a thought there. :) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 11:46:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:46:18 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101181 > Neri wrote: > An interesting thread. Lets remember for a minute what is JKR's > biggest wildcard: the next DADA teacher. I was playing with guesses > what will he/she be, based on what we still haven't got in the > previous five books. The beautiful temptress fits right in. Hmmm. She > could even be a vampire... > > However, if this really happens, many distinguished group members > will have to get over their SHIP aversion, or they won't be able to > discuss the main plot :-) x Potioncat: But if the next DADA teacher is a vampire temptress, will she go after Harry or Snape? Now that will give shippers something to take on! From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 11:50:06 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:50:06 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) [mailto:catlady at w...] > > > > I was under the impression that Pettigrew went to the Weasleys because he > knew Arthur worked at the MoM and could, by being around them and listening > in, monitor whether or not V-Mort was regaining power or if something were > to happen with Sirius. > > Barbara > aka bd-bear Sue: Um ... is this likely? He was living as a child's pet! How much information would he expect to hear from Percy's pocket? And then at Hogwarts? Even if he did think so, he wouldn't have taken long to discover his mistake and go somewhere else. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 14 11:55:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:55:29 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Funny, I have yet to see Snape save Harry's life, at least on his > own. He held off Quirrell's curse for Hermione, but Snape did nothing > to save Harry in PoA. Harry was in no danger. > > Kneasy: At least three other posters have tackled you on this one. Good. That'll help postpone RSI a bit longer. > > Snape *punishes* > Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, (though not > > always) when Harry has done something particularly brainless, or > marks docked; marks, by the way that don't matter. How many exams has > Harry failed? Zero. None. And the OWLS (which do matter) are marked > by external examiners and everybody knows it. How many detentions has > > Snape given Harry in 5 years? Care to guess? Wow! That really is > some expression of hate! Snape is much more complex than a seething > > cauldron of Potter-ophobia. He's not nice (thank God) but he is > > interesting. > darrin: > I'm glad you thank God for not nice people. Gives me a pretty good > perspective on what I'm dealing with here. > > Kneasy: Splendid! A confirmed sighting of someone confusing fantasy with reality! I'll paraphrase DD "Kneasy is much too old and clever to allow such feeble taunts to hurt him." Get real. Some of us have seen real evil, real prejudice, real fanaticism and we don't confuse it with fantasy. >darrin: > Ohmygod. Where to begin. > > * Attempted murder of Harry with the Dementor prank in PoA. > > * Repeated attempts to get Hagrid fired. > > * Attempts to maim Harry before Quidditch matches > Kneasy: Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. Getting Hagrid fired - it's not only Slyths that think he's no good, some of the students from other Houses do too. Does that make them evil as well? Attempts to maim Harry - don't recall those. Be a bit more specific and I'll address your points. > darrin: > Sure, we need villains. It just seems more useful to consider them > villains, rather than picked on ickle wittle good boys and girls who > are just trying to survive the nasty Gryffs. > > Kneasy: Not something I've ever done; pointing out that Harry and his little chums aren't as perfect as some posters would hope by comparing behaviour between Houses does not equate to blameless Slyths, no matter that some would wish to believe that it's the point at issue. But carry on interpreting posts that way if you wish, it's vastly entertaining. > darrin: > Lack of proportion? Hmmm, you took the words right out of my mouth > when you posted about how bullied the Slyths are. And stick around on > the list. You'll see plenty of whining. > Kneasy: Bullied Slyths? Not my point at all, as you probably realise, but see little advantage in admitting. It's an old tactic for those with a dodgy case to try and polarise opinions to the extremes, hoping to provoke an equally unbalanced response that can then be jumped on. Rarely works for long though, especially when dealing with characters that aren't presented in clear black and white but in varying shades of grey. Sorry that you feel that you have to whine to get your case across. A reasonable, balanced presentation of your case would be preferable, but obviously you know best how to advance your arguments. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 12:05:15 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:05:15 -0000 Subject: The missing Evil Temptress. was: Missing character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101184 > > Neri wrote: > > An interesting thread. Lets remember for a minute what is JKR's > > biggest wildcard: the next DADA teacher. I was playing with > guesses > > what will he/she be, based on what we still haven't got in the > > previous five books. The beautiful temptress fits right in. Hmmm. > She > > could even be a vampire... > > > > However, if this really happens, many distinguished group members > > will have to get over their SHIP aversion, or they won't be able > to > > discuss the main plot :-) > x > > Potioncat: > But if the next DADA teacher is a vampire temptress, will she go > after Harry or Snape? Now that will give shippers something to take > on! Neri: Wow! I didn't think of that. She'd go for both, of course, and she'll set them against each other. Harry and Snape fighting each other for her charms! This will shut up all the SHIP haters alright. From bd-bear at verizon.net Mon Jun 14 12:05:18 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:05:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101185 >>>From: sbursztynski [mailto:greatraven at hotmail.com] Um ... is this likely? He was living as a child's pet! How much information would he expect to hear from Percy's pocket? And then at Hogwarts? Even if he did think so, he wouldn't have taken long to discover his mistake and go somewhere else.<<< Very likely, and directly from canon: "Why else did you find a wizard family to take you in? Keeping an ear out for news, weren't you Peter? Just in case your old protector regained strength, and it was safe to rejoin him. . ." PoA, Page 370 Also, we don't know that Percy kept him in a pocket or even took him to Hogwarts. We know that "Scabbers" has been in the Weasley family for years. Even if Percy did keep him in his pocket, like Ron did, he would still have been around to hear anything that might have been mentioned at the Weasley home during the holidays. Remember, animagi keep their minds when they transform, so he would understand whatever he heard. And hey, if he felt he had to live as a rat to hide from whoever (DEs, Sirius or VM), the Weasleys certainly gave him a good life, fed him well (remember how fat Scabbers was in the first book/movie?), etc., so why NOT stay there while you're waiting for some indication that things have changed? BTW, what mistake are you referring to? Barbara aka bd-bear From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 12:30:11 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:30:11 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101186 > Very likely, and directly from canon: > > "Why else did you find a wizard family to take you in? Keeping an ear out > for news, weren't you Peter? Just in case your old protector regained > strength, and it was safe to rejoin him. . ." > > PoA, Page 370 > > Also, we don't know that Percy kept him in a pocket or even took him to > Hogwarts. We know that "Scabbers" has been in the Weasley family for years. > Even if Percy did keep him in his pocket, like Ron did, he would still have > been around to hear anything that might have been mentioned at the Weasley > home during the holidays. Remember, animagi keep their minds when they > transform, so he would understand whatever he heard. And hey, if he felt he > had to live as a rat to hide from whoever (DEs, Sirius or VM), the Weasleys > certainly gave him a good life, fed him well (remember how fat Scabbers was > in the first book/movie?), etc., so why NOT stay there while you're waiting > for some indication that things have changed? > > BTW, what mistake are you referring to? > > Barbara > aka bd-bear I think IMHO the mistake that is refering to is staying with the Weasleys in the first place. From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 14 13:17:58 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:17:58 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101187 I'm a bit nervous taking on Ms. Pippin, but I'm willing to take the risk. If this pops up on the list twice, I'm very sorry, and I don't know why my posts are doing that. Okay - I understand the support for Snape. I really do. Snape is not out to kill Harry. Snape is a member of the Order and he took a hell of a risk showing Fudge his Dark Mark. I respect Snape for turning against Voldemort and the DEs and choosing to be a spy for Dumbledore. I find him a fascinating character. However, Snape just *loves* to get Harry in trouble... or at least try to. He was the one waiting for Ron and Harry in CoS when they crashed the car into the Whomping Willow. He was very eager to see them both punished. The moment when I really hated Snape was when he would not let Harry find Dumbledore in GoF when Harry found Crouch on the grounds of Hogwarts. I still cannot for the life of me understand why Snape not only delayed Harry, but seemed to enjoy it. True, Harry was not about to be punished, but Snape was just plain mean here. Even in SS, when Snape first comes face to face with Harry in Potions class, he seizes the opportunity to make a fool of Harry. It's mean and uncalled for. I teach high school and I have some tough students. Sometimes it is very hard to like them, but I find a way. I don't pick on them, or single them out, or hold grudges from year to year, even with kids I've had problems with previously. Snape would do his job better both as a teacher and as a member of the Order if he'd let go of the past and focus on the now. I do think it was Dumbledore's mistake, though, to think Snape could successfully teach Harry Occlumency. A tricky potion he could have done, but working with the mind? That was too hard for both of them, as we all saw the disastrous results. Beyond that, Snape needs to chill out. --jenny from ravenclaw, hoping this doesn't post twice *************************** From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 13:44:52 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:44:52 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Darrin wrote : > > Snape's views on Harry have nothing to do with the war. They have to do with things that happened when he was a teenager. > > Del replies : > How do you know that ? The way Snape told Harry that he was neither > special nor important during his first Occlumency lesson, when all the evidence point to the contrary, indicated to me that Snape deeply > resents Harry's role in the war. After all he, Snape, did, it was > still Harry who got all the credit at the end of the first war, for > something he didn't even do consciously. McGonagall, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Moody, Lupin, Sirius and all the other members of the Order of the Phoenix did quite a bit during the war too. Don't see them reacting this way to Harry. Maybe you're right. Maybe Snape resents Harry and is jealous Harry gets all the attention, but we have from D-Dore, who has as good an insight into Snape as any, that Snape and James hated each other. Perhaps Snape is a resentful, petty man who can't celebrate V-Mort being gone because of the way it happened. Just one more reason to dislike him. My problem is not with people who pity Snape, hope Snape gets it together or enjoy him for his humanity. My problem is with people who admire him and apologize for him. Harry became the Boy Who > Lived, while Snape was just the Former DE or the Traitor, depending on people's side in the war. And it will be exactly the same in the >war that's starting : no matter what Snape will do, it will still be Harry who will turn out to be the hero. For someone like Snape who >craves recognition, I guess it's a bit hard to take. So IMO to say that Snape's dislike of Harry is ONLY linked to James is being quite blind to the extent of Snape and Harry's personal relationship. Whether it's James or it's resentment over the war, Snape needs to get over it. So Harry had no conscious memory of defeating V-Mort? That means he didn't mean to do it. Which means, either way, Snape is blaming Harry for something he doesn't remember. And Harry is ridiculed, slandered and put through hideous detentions for his insistence on V-Mort's return. Perhaps Harry IS pulling his weight now, so Snape, once again, should let the hell up. > Darrin wrote : > > Hagrid and McGonagall lost friends to their students' fathers. And while I'm at it, Draco has done everything he can think of to get Hagrid fired, and Hagrid still treats him professionally. > > Del replies : > McGonagall is around 70, she was already 50-ish by the time the >first war started, so I'm not surprised that she should be more >forgiving> and that she should have enough self-control as to not punish kids for their fathers' crimes. But again, McGonagall was out there fighting when Snape was in school. And soon after Snape graduated Hogwarts, he became a DE. He WAS a DE for a period of time. This argument is actually strengthening my case. Someone who is a veteran of the war has more self-control than someone who grew up in it. That does not strengthen the case for Snape, if he has less self- control than someone who actually experienced it. So I stick to what I said : Snape's personality has been deeply > influenced by the LV war, much more so than most other characters, and > we have to take that into account. Moreso than OTHER characters? Prove it. Even if I bought what you said about Snape somehow being affected more by what was going on than people actually doing battle, Sirius and Lupin, and younger members of the Order like Shacklebolt should have the same influence. > Darrin wrote : > > These brats have tried to get Hagrid fired AND they worked against teachers while being members of the Inquisition Squad. > > > > They are starting to come into their own, sins-wise, and yet they > > are STILL treated professionally. > > Del replies : > In fact, Draco has only been doing what he saw his father do, and what> he knows would please his father. Draco is still only his father's> creature, and he most definitely has NOT come into his own yet,> sin-wise or otherwise. > > And that might be the reason he's still treated professionally by his> teachers : because he's so obviously only Lucius's puppet (and a bad one too : he's letting his own feelings of jealousy interfere with his father's orders to look fond of Harry). > OK, fair enough. Maybe the teachers realize that Draco doesn't have to turn into what his father did. Wouldn't it be loverly if Snape realized that about Harry? After all, James isn't around to influence Harry. Other teachers are working against Lucius' influence. > Darrin wrote : > > I'm judging him as a teacher. Someone entrusted with responsibility. > > I don't care if someone else is older. Are we REALLY saying that > > Hagrid has more self-control than Snape? > > > > Yes, we are. > > > > Pretty pathetic on Snape's part. > > Del replies : > HOW SO ??? How is it pathetic that Hagrid, a 60-something half- giant, shoud have more self-control than 30-something pureblood Snape > Hagrid HAS to have self-control, Snape doesn't. Hagrid will suffer > harsh consequences if he doesn't keep his temper (that I don't even > see he has anyway) in check, Snape won't. Hagrid is sensitive to love> and trust given to him, Snape isn't. Hagrid is fundamentally happy> with his life, Snape isn't. And so on. > > Del replies : > Going back to Harry, are we ? > > No I'm not especially expecting Harry to be normal. I realise that > he's been bent by his life, and that what's happening to him is only > bending him further. And that's why I'm glad that JKR described him > with faults, and making mistakes : because it's realistic. It makes me> want to see if and how he's going to react to avoid ending up as > another Snape full of pain and hatred. That's why, for example, I'm > not ready to just brush away Harry's attempt at using the Cruciatus > Curse : because it's fascinating to me, because I want to see if and > how it's going to affect him, what he's going to do about it, etc... > > And that's why it makes me cringe when you try to convince me that > Harry can do no wrong : it's unrealistic, and it's denying his story. > Never once have I said Harry can do no wrong. Check the tapes. I've never said that. My problem has always been with the moral equivalency some try to put forward on this list. It goes something like this: Harry broke the rules to rescue Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets. Draco broke the rules to try to knock Harry off the broom in PoA. Harry & Draco - Both rulebreakers! Or like this: Snape took off on Harry from the very first day of class. Harry doesn't give Snape a chance! Harry & Snape - both to blame! And I have a major problem with downplaying what Harry has gone through in order to make Snape the star of the piece. > Darrin wrote : > > Oh, that's right. He treats the Creevey brothers badly. He gets into a fight with Hermione over a broom. > > > > How dare he. > > Del replies : > Those comments are so childish that I hope you're very young Darrin. > May I remind you that this group is called "Harry Potter FOR GROWN > UPS" ? Your attitude is not that of a grown-up. If you can't handle > people with differing opinions, people who don't have the same > sympathies as you have, people who don't share your every feeling, > then you're going to suffer on this list indeed. Sorry for that, but I won't give in to your childish methods. > So don't. And please. I doubt I will "suffer" anything on the list besides getting a lot of posters upset with me. Done it before. I don't care if people have differing opinions or not. I'm pointing out how ludicrous it is when people's best shots at Harry have to do with "being upset with the Creevey" brothers, as if that MATTERS to the price of eggs. I find the moral equivalency offensive. Darrin From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 14:11:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:11:12 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101190 > Neri now: xsnip< If destroying LV is his top priority, couldn't he just > try a different approach? Just, say, going for less painful > memories at start and grant a small praise here and > there? Very extreme, I know, but it's for the cause, after all. Potioncat: I have a question about your question. I've seen it before, and I'm wondering, can Snape choose which memories to go after? He says it's not like reading a book. Does canon give us any ideas on this? Because I never thought he targeted certain memories. I also thought he did give a small praise here and there. But I cannot imagine why anything would think that a student could be taught occlumency by someone with whom he doesn't feel comfortable.Potioncat From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Mon Jun 14 14:32:49 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:32:49 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101191 Hello, everyone. >From the HBF: "We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions are the reasons for this group's existence. As adults, we expect everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another without being snide or insulting. Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the argument. Do not attack or insult other list members. If you find yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read your response later and find a way to make your point without attacking others. Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull offending threads. --Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 14:42:43 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:42:43 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101192 Kneasy wrote: > OK, we can keep on about Snape's teaching methods 'til the cows > come home, and it's obvious that there are at least two factions > and that they will probably never agree. No problem. However, I > will ask - has Snape *ever* been seen to teach differently? Neri: I didn't do a full research, but Snape is quite able to grant a healthy praise when he is not over-emotional. Here is an example from that memorable first Potions lesson in SS/PS: "He swept around in his long black cloak, watching them weigh dried nettles and crush snake fangs, criticising almost everyone except Malfoy whom he seemed to like. He was just telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs when clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing filled the dungeon." Allow me to suppose that Draco wasn't THAT perfect with stewing his horned slugs. This praise and many others were calculated to get Lucius Malfoy's good opinion. Sure, this is Secret Agent Snape at work. My point is that with Harry, Secret Agent Snape loses his cool head and his ability to give (even undue) praises for a good cause, even before Harry peeked into his memories. Let's face it, our controlled, calculating secret agent becomes highly emotional and irrational when facing Harry. Kneasy also wrote: >It looks > as if he treated Occlumency more or less the same as any other > lesson. You mean, like every other lesson with HARRY. And this is my point exactly: this wasn't just any other lesson. It had far-reaching implications for the war effort, and Snape knew it (while Harry though it had implications only for his own safety). Even if all the other lessons were the DD & Snape double act (which I don't believe), this was the time to let the double act off for a time. Snape could have appreciated that. He is far from being stupid. As DD says, he just can't overcome his feelings. Neri From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jun 14 15:04:54 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:04:54 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > You mean, like every other lesson with HARRY. And this is my point > exactly: this wasn't just any other lesson. It had far-reaching > implications for the war effort, and Snape knew it (while Harry > though it had implications only for his own safety). Even if all the > other lessons were the DD & Snape double act (which I don't believe), > this was the time to let the double act off for a time. Snape could > have appreciated that. He is far from being stupid. As DD says, he > just can't overcome his feelings. > I have the impression that Snape has ALWAYS been a martinet. Nobody messes with him, and all the students are quiet and fearful of getting on his bad side - and this was probably the case during the years before Harry got to Hogwarts, when play-acting wouldn't have been as necessary for Snape. For example, with all their pranks and goofing off, does anyone remember a moment when Fred and George tried to pull a joke in Snape's class? I think even they knew better than to tangle with him. We see his unfairness to Harry, and because we know more backstory than the characters in the books, we can create theories about why he does what he does. But it's interesting that nobody in the books does this. The other students don't act shocked or perplexed that Snape is picking on Harry Potter, they just keep their heads down and are grateful that it isn't happening to them. Maybe this is because Snape has always done this sort of thing, and he's known to be a teacher who can target students he doesn't like - he's acting entirely in character. This year it's Potter, maybe the year before it was Jenkins, and the year before that it was Judkins, etc. Its always bound to be SOMEONE. Wanda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 14 15:18:52 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:18:52 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101194 Jenni: > 1. How did "Scabbers" end up in the hands of the Weasley family? > > The books indicate that it belonged to Percy before Ron got it, > but that doesn't seem to jive with him having been with the family > for 12 years, if you assume that "School Pets" aren't acquired until > age 11. After all, Percy is only, what, four or five years older > than Ron (I don't have my books handy and I can't remember if he was > in 5th or 6th year in PS/SS). Jen: Hi Jenni! Welcome. I've always imagined Peter knew the Weasleys or at least knew OF them, and he specifically chose them for his hiding place. The Weasleys at that time offered a refuge from the War--they lived in the country, were not members of the Order, and Arthur didn't have any real power at the MOM. And, most ironic, this was a Gryffindor family. It also doesn't appear Voldemort was targeting them in any way. Also, I'm not sure Sirius was right, that Pettigrew was merely waiting for the right moment to give Harry to LV. I think he was trying to save his own skin! Now that we know the Prewitt brothers were probably Molly's brothers, Wormtail's role in all this is even more disturbing. If he was passing information to Voldemort for a year prior to the deaths of the Potters, did he also betray the Prewitt brothers? Jenni: > And it's not like he only betrayed Lily and James after suffering > through extreme torture. No, he made a conscious decision to run to > V. with the information that would betray two of the people he'd > been friends with throughout school, and *then* he actually went out > of his way to frame a third. He didn't have to frame Sirius -- he > could have done the same disappearing trick but made it look like V. > had done him in, so people might think he only cracked after being > tortured. Jen: He had to frame Sirius, though, because Sirius was the one person who knew what happened and also knew he was an Animagus. Sirius would vow to find Peter if it was the last thing he did. Peter wouldn't have the same sense of security if he knew Sirius was out there, hunting him down as Padfoot. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 15:28:27 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:28:27 -0000 Subject: Weasleys OOP was Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101195 > I've always imagined Peter knew the Weasleys or at least knew OF > them, and he specifically chose them for his hiding place. The > Weasleys at that time offered a refuge from the War--they lived in > the country, were not members of the Order, and Arthur didn't have > any real power at the MOM. And, most ironic, this was a Gryffindor > family. It also doesn't appear Voldemort was targeting them in any > way. > > Also, I'm not sure Sirius was right, that Pettigrew was merely > waiting for the right moment to give Harry to LV. I think he was > trying to save his own skin! > > Now that we know the Prewitt brothers were probably Molly's > brothers, Wormtail's role in all this is even more disturbing. If he > was passing information to Voldemort for a year prior to the deaths > of the Potters, did he also betray the Prewitt brothers? > > Jenni: I really wish I had thought to bring my book with me to work :P I always thought that they WERE members of the Order. I guess I must have missed something when I was reading. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 14 15:41:44 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:41:44 -0400 Subject: Theo Nott--Where? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101196 Sorry all, but I just drew a complete mental blank...my "Forgetter" is working well today, or i've been hit by an Obliviate. :-) Where is Theodore Nott introduced? Is it in OOTP or one of Lady Rowling's notes? Thanks, Lee :-) (In desperate need of her cup of coffee!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 14 15:52:02 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:52:02 -0000 Subject: Missing character - OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101197 > Kirstini: > the missing Evil Temptress you highlighted would fit in rather > nicely with the publisher's promise that "there will be a new DADA > teacher (female) with a personality like poisoned honey". I > suppose you could call it a pet theory of mine because unlike everyone else on the list, I don't think this is going to be Arabella Figg. Mandy here: Sorry Kirstini, but JKR said that last year about the upcoming DADA teacher in book five. And we ended up with Deloris Jane Umbridge. JKR was again, bless her, leading us on a wild goose chase with that comment. Let's hold out for another female DADA teacher in book 6. Like I said a long time ago, I hope she's sexy, beautiful, strict and potentially very evil, like the stereotype of the sexy French schoolmistress, someone all the boys will fall for. After all the girls had Lockheart back in book 2! It's about time the boys caught up! Mandy From lliannanshe at comcast.net Mon Jun 14 16:05:11 2004 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:05:11 -0000 Subject: Theo Nott--Where? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101198 > Where is Theodore Nott introduced? Is it in OOTP or one of Lady Rowling's > notes? > > Thanks, > > Lee :-) > (In desperate need of her cup of coffee!) Theodore Nott's name was first mentioned in OOP chapter 24, 25 or 26 there about. (I can't remember the name of the chapter) The very first mention of Nott is SS "The Sorting Hat" just mentions he was sorted but doesn't tell us which house. Pleased to help Lliannanshe (Who is still working on a Venti Iced Coffee) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 14 16:09:04 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:09:04 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: <20040613140101.486.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101199 > moonmyyst wrote: > Now, would that not KILL Malfoy if Harry ended up being Head Boy!! The person who put his beloved father in prison, the person who he has looked down on and made fun of. The person that he feels he has the upper hand on with him being a prefect. In other words, the person Malfoy has tried to be better than but always seemed to fall short of - is now HEAD BOY!!!! Talk about taking the rivalry to a whole new level!! > Mandy here: Let's flip it around the other way and make Draco head boy. That would be a bitter pill for Harry to swallow. The son of a man, who has witnessed Harry being tortured, and who would have willingly had Harry's friends killed in the Mom to get his evil hands on both Harry and the orb. Draco, the boy who Harry has detested since his first day in Diagon Ally. Who has a personal vendetta against both Ron and Hermione. Who has done anything to make Harry's life miserable at Hogwarts. That would not only take the rivalry to a new level, but it would give Harry a very interesting obstacle to overcome in dealing with life at Hogwarts in his final year. Especially if the war and LV come to Hogwarts to fight the final battle, with I'm convinced they will. It might force the two boys to work together to unite the school against a common foe. Mandy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 14 16:20:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:20:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101200 OK. Message received. (I assume I'm among the offenders edging over the line.) Yellow flag probably justified (beats breast, cries Mea culpa - *very* quietly). Very sad in some ways; I *do* love what you might call a 'robust' debate, but I realise some are a bit more sensitive about that sort of thing. Always a possibility that things could get out of hand, too. Hopefully the admonition will be taken seriously by all interested parties. If not, I'll find it very hard to bite my cheek. There used to be a sign on a cage in the Paris Zoo: "This animal is Dangerous. When provoked it attacks." Ah, well; keep my fingers crossed. It's much harder to pound the keyboard with an instinctive response that way. Kneasy On 14 Jun 2004, at 15:32, Kelley wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > From the HBF: > "We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." > > Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; > debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions > are the reasons for this group's existence.? As adults, we expect > everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and > we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another > without being snide or insulting. > > Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the > argument.? Do not attack or insult other list members.? If you find > yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'.? Read your response > later and find a way to make your point without attacking others.? > Please keep it civil.? We reserve the right to pull offending threads. > > > --Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 16:32:16 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:32:16 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101201 > > Mandy here: > Let's flip it around the other way and make Draco head boy. That > would be a bitter pill for Harry to swallow. The son of a man, who > has witnessed Harry being tortured, and who would have willingly had > Harry's friends killed in the Mom to get his evil hands on both Harry > and the orb. Draco, the boy who Harry has detested since his first > day in Diagon Ally. Who has a personal vendetta against both Ron and > Hermione. Who has done anything to make Harry's life miserable at > Hogwarts. That would not only take the rivalry to a new level, but > it would give Harry a very interesting obstacle to overcome in > dealing with life at Hogwarts in his final year. Especially if the > war and LV come to Hogwarts to fight the final battle, with I'm > convinced they will. It might force the two boys to work together to > unite the school against a common foe. > Curious. What is it about Draco you've seen so far that makes you think he'll fight AGAINST V-Mort when/if the final battle comes to Hogwarts? I don't believe Draco, as it stands now, considers V-Mort a foe. His comments at the end of GoF and OoP indicate quite the opposite. Perhaps that will change. Perhaps V-Mort will dispose of Lucius and/or Narcissa for not carrying out some task and Draco will see he's been backing the wrong horse, but until that happens, I'd say Draco would be using his Head Boy status to help V-Mort get into Hogwarts in the first place. Darrin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 16:32:37 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:32:37 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin ambiguous? was: What's subversive? (long) In-Reply-To: <009B49C1-BDF9-11D8-A74C-000A95665DE8@m4x.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, olivier.fouquet+harry at m... wrote: > Pippin > which brings me to my main point. David gives me far too much credit. I did not invent the ambiguities surrounding the character of Remus Lupin. JKR did that. All I did was catalogue them -- and suggest a possible explanation. It seems to me that in Lupin's case the subversive reading is to deny that the ambiguities exist or to claim that they are accidental. > > Now Olivier > > At the end of my message is a collection of all the appearances of Lupin in OoP, just to assess if indeed Lupin is ambiguous or not. I urge the interested reader to skim through them. > > Well, let's see now: is Lupin ambiguous? Well, maybe he is, but the least we can say is that the non subversive way to read him is the calm, quiet, intellectual guy with a certain talent for human relation < Pippin: I agree. But what, in that characterization, precludes him from joining Voldemort? I found your list of OOP references fascinating and useful but perhaps a bit, er, selective? Not on purpose, I hasten to add. In that spirit, a few additions: You mention that Lupin thinks the goblins would be tempted by freedom more than gold, but not what he thought they would be tempted to do: ally with the murderer of their families. You agree with me that Lupin is capable of legilimency, but don't suggest he might be using it when he aims his long, hard look at Sirius as Sirius is thinking about how much of what he knows should be told to Harry. Olivier: > We can suspect that Sirius and Lupin both know from the start about Dumbledore's plan to trap Voldemort in the Mom (look up the fleeting look between them during the diner). He has also argued that Lupin's weak points are his cowardice and his desire to be liked. However, in all the references above, I fail to discern such traits. Even in the Pensieve scene, it is Peter and the pair James/Sirius who seems very concerned about being liked. Remus is utterly absent, he reads and wants to do some homework.< Pippin: Whoa! Now *that's* what I call subversive reading, Olivier! JKR is the one who said that Lupin's great weakness was his desire to be liked, and offered that as the explanation for why he cuts his friends so much slack. (Albert Hall interview) It would also be a subversive reading, IMO, to think that Dumbledore is not telling Harry everything he knows about the Prophecy when he says he is. And Dumbledore takes sole responsibility for Harry's ignorance about the prophecy. He says, over and over, that he alone could have warned Harry that Voldemort was trying to lure him to the Department of Mysteries --meaning that up to the time of the conference in Dumbledore's office, there was no one else, besides Voldemort and his servants, who to Dumbledore's knowledge was aware of it. Supposedly, the Order only knew that they were guarding a prophecy about Voldemort, that only Voldemort could retrieve. Dumbledore says that Snape "deduced" where Harry had gone. If Dumbledore thought Snape knew that Voldemort was trying to get Harry to the DoM to retrieve the Prophecy for him, then he wouldn't have thought that Snape had to deduce anything. If Sirius and Lupin have knowledge of Harry's connection to the prophecy, they didn't find out from Dumbledore. So that is an ambiguity. Maybe Dumbledore is lying. Maybe JKR made a mistake. Maybe Dumbledore told James about the Prophecy but wrongly believes that James told nobody else. Or maybe Lupin's knowledge comes from Voldemort, and he told Sirius, pretending that he got the knowledge from James. Which reading is subversive? Beats me. Since Lupin saw that Harry had the prophecy, we don't know whether he was trying to save Harry or the prophecy, or both. ESE!Lupin theory does not preclude Lupin from serving two masters, or trying to. Olivier: > Maybe Lupin will turn out to be evil, maybe he will be a traitor to the Order, just like Peter was the first time. However, to say that this is the natural way to read the character seems to me to be an incredible stretch. > > PS: Pippin, you left aside David quotation of Elkins: Do you personally recognize yourself in Elkins characterization of the subversive < Pippin: Hmmm. In each book there turns out to be a villain whom Harry thought innocent or incapable of deceiving him: Quirrell, Tom Riddle, Scabbers, Impostor!Moody, and Kreacher. In each book there are ambiguities which the intelligent reader recognizes were deliberately planted clues to the identity of this person. On her website JKR says that she is constructing Book Six with the help of a huge chart that tells her which clues have to go into which "innocent" chapters. Rowling is consciously and deliberately playing a guessing game with the readers. Some readers, of course, don't enjoy or don't care about this aspect of the books at all. But it seems to me a stretch to deny that it's there. Is it an unnatural or subversive reading of a whodunnit to try and guess whodunnit? Is it an incredible stretch to think it might be someone the reader is not being led to suspect, except in very subtle ways? I confess Elkins is a bit beyond me sometimes, but I don't think that's what she meant by subversive. I believe Elkins was referring the sometimes heroic efforts on the readers' parts to go beyond the author in achieving versimilitude, by doing such things as reconciling the accidental ambiguities which creep into any work of fiction or adding complexity to minor characters. If the Potterverse were a real place, then it would, we fondly imagine, possess internal consistency, it would be non-catastrophic (ie events would be related as to cause and effect) and the other people in it would have lives just as full and complicated as Harry's. This leads to the longing for more complicated Slytherins, monumental efforts by the members of this list to reconcile the wand order glitch, and to such efforts as Elkins's nine part Crouch post. Elkins also might be referring to the things readers imagine to make an engaging tale fit better with their personal philosophies or desires, in contravention of the authors' intent or the sense of the story. I could be guilty of that, but I have tried to support my ideas with references to JKR's philosophy and intentions, not mine. I don't feel a need to make Lupin more complicated, if that's what you are asking. I do feel a need to resolve the ambiguities. The question of which ambiguities are deliberate and intended to be resolved fascinates me. One of the things I love about Rowling's toy universe is that it is unashamedly a toy universe. Some things are deliberately left non-functional. Like an old-fashioned toy piano, the black keys are only painted on. So there's no figuring out how many students there are at Hogwarts, and yes, the school year always starts on Sunday, September 1st. On the other hand, the "white keys" are supposed to really play, and when one of them glitches, like the wand order, Rowling fixes it. The ambiguities surrounding Lupin seem far too numerous to me to be accidental or painted on. This is not a glitch like writing "ancestor" for "descendant" or getting the wand order confused. This isn't something that doesn't pertain to the theme, like the school calendar. This is a character who admits to being a coward and a skillful liar, who says he understands why someone would betray his family to Voldemort for the promise of freedom, who admits he has been unworthy of Dumbledore's confidence, and who has no alibi for any of the murders. Of course it could all be a double bluff, but then being taken in by a deliberate red herring is not subversive either. I guess what I see as subversive is the argument that no one as nice as Lupin could be ESE! That seems to have more to do with the readers' affection for the character than with what JKR is trying to say. She says she likes all her characters, even the bad guys (well, maybe not Vernon). Pippin From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 14 16:33:34 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:33:34 -0400 Subject: Draco's Intent (was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101203 | From: arrowsmithbt | Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:55 AM | | >darrin: | > Ohmygod. Where to begin. | > | > * Attempted murder of Harry with the Dementor prank in PoA. | > | > * Repeated attempts to get Hagrid fired. | > | > * Attempts to maim Harry before Quidditch matches | > | | Kneasy: | Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? | That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. [Lee]: I can sorta see Dar's point, Kneasy. Draco knew how the dementors affected Harry; he'd seen the crash and tumble Harry took when the dementors had come into the stadium. I'm sure he's not aware that Harry's learning Patronus; the practical joke, if you will, was designed to do, at least, serious injury, which could have possibly resulted in Harry's demise. Fortunately, Harry did manage a whopping Patronus which exposed the pranksters and the pranksters were reprimanded and punished. Okay, let's say that Harry hadn't learned the Patronus; Draco and company did their dementor thing and Harry fell, and let's say that staff, referee, etc. couldn't act fast enough... But, fortunately, that didn't happen, and so we have more HP books. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 14 16:45:46 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:45:46 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101204 > > Mandy wrote: > > Let's flip it around the other way and make Draco head boy. That > > would be a bitter pill for Harry to swallow. The son of a man, who has witnessed Harry being tortured, and who would have willingly > had Harry's friends killed in the Mom to get his evil hands on both > Harry and the orb. Draco, the boy who Harry has detested since his first day in Diagon Ally. Who has a personal vendetta against both Ron and Hermione. Who has done anything to make Harry's life miserable at Hogwarts. That would not only take the rivalry to a new level, but it would give Harry a very interesting obstacle to overcome in dealing with life at Hogwarts in his final year. Especially if the war and LV come to Hogwarts to fight the final battle, with I'm convinced they will. It might force the two boys to work together to unite the school against a common foe. > > Darrin wrote: > Curious. What is it about Draco you've seen so far that makes you > think he'll fight AGAINST V-Mort when/if the final battle comes to > Hogwarts? > I don't believe Draco, as it stands now, considers V-Mort a foe. His comments at the end of GoF and OoP indicate quite the opposite. > Perhaps that will change. Perhaps V-Mort will dispose of Lucius > and/or Narcissa for not carrying out some task and Draco will see > he's been backing the wrong horse, but until that happens, I'd say > Draco would be using his Head Boy status to help V-Mort get into > Hogwarts in the first place. Mandy again: No I haven't seen anything in Draco that hints toward him eventually fighting LV. I'm thinking along the lines of the theory that suggests that the school must unite to prevent its fall. As we know so few Slytherins, it seems that presently Draco is the only available candidate to join Slytherin House with Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. There is some peculation about Nott, but unless he becomes a major player in the next book it's unlikely, imo. The reasons for Draco joining Harry are going to have to be extreme, and very interesting. The murder of one or both of Draco's parents seems the only possibility at the moment. Mandy From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 16:56:53 2004 From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040614165653.94207.qmail@web50806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101205 Hi Kelley elf, I hope I'm directing this comment to the right place--please let me know if I'm not. The debates which I'm assuming you are referring to have been bothering me for additional reasons. It seems that at least half the threads on the list end up being an ethics discussion rather than a discussion of the Harry Potter books. People seem to be using the characters and themes in Harry Potter just as a starting point for ethics discussions and very little of these discussions has much to do with the books. It feels very off-topic to me but maybe I'm wrong. If there are people who really enjoy this type of discussion maybe they could have it on another list? Just a suggestion... Thanks. Jenjar --- Kelley wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > From the HBF: > "We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult > other list members." > > Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied > as our membership; > debating and discussing these interpretations and > sharing opinions > are the reasons for this group's existence. As > adults, we expect > everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to > our opinions, and > we expect that people should be able to disagree > with one another > without being snide or insulting. > > Please keep your comments and critiques focused to > the merits of the > argument. Do not attack or insult other list > members. If you find > yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read > your response > later and find a way to make your point without > attacking others. > Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull > offending threads. > > > --Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 14 16:59:44 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:59:44 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > I'm thinking along the lines of the theory that suggests that the > school must unite to prevent its fall. As we know so few Slytherins, > it seems that presently Draco is the only available candidate to join > Slytherin House with Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. There is > some peculation about Nott, but unless he becomes a major player in > the next book it's unlikely, imo. > > The reasons for Draco joining Harry are going to have to be extreme, > and very interesting. The murder of one or both of Draco's parents > seems the only possibility at the moment.> I'm not sure why you think Harry and Draco will fight together for any reason. I could be wrong, but I swear I read somewhere that JKR herself said that the two would not unite. I can see Draco going in many directions, but right now, I see him as a coward who may not know what to do with himself now that Dear Old Dad is in Azkaban. He seemed to be very angry at Harry at the end of OoP, but I haven't seen him do any real harm to Harry, who can run circles around him magically. Wouldn't it also be a bit cliched if Harry and Draco worked together? It would be far more interesting to see Draco really lose it over his father, or to see him see his father in a different light and have trouble dealing with that. Or maybe his fellow Slytherins will turn on him because they're sick of his big mouth and the problems he tends to cause. Maybe he'll even end up in St. Mungo's, with Gilderoy Lockhart as his roomie. :-) Or maybe he'll decide he can't handle being a DE but he'll always hate Harry. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************************************* From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 14 16:58:58 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:58:58 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > I'm thinking along the lines of the theory that suggests that the > school must unite to prevent its fall. As we know so few Slytherins, > it seems that presently Draco is the only available candidate to join > Slytherin House with Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. There is > some peculation about Nott, but unless he becomes a major player in > the next book it's unlikely, imo. > > The reasons for Draco joining Harry are going to have to be extreme, > and very interesting. The murder of one or both of Draco's parents > seems the only possibility at the moment.> I'm not sure why you think Harry and Draco will fight together for any reason. I could be wrong, but I swear I read somewhere that JKR herself said that the two would not unite. I can see Draco going in many directions, but right now, I see him as a coward who may not know what to do with himself now that Dear Old Dad is in Azkaban. He seemed to be very angry at Harry at the end of OoP, but I haven't seen him do any real harm to Harry, who can run circles around him magically. Wouldn't it also be a bit cliched if Harry and Draco worked together? It would be far more interesting to see Draco really lose it over his father, or to see him see his father in a different light and have trouble dealing with that. Or maybe his fellow Slytherins will turn on him because they're sick of his big mouth and the problems he tends to cause. Maybe he'll even end up in St. Mungo's, with Gilderoy Lockhart as his roomie. :-) Or maybe he'll decide he can't handle being a DE but he'll always hate Harry. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************************************* From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 17:00:05 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:00:05 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: >> > > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) > > On orders from D-Dore. HOLD IT! I was happily watching everyone else fight this battle but I HAVE to step in here. NOWHERE is it indicated that DD had ANYTHING to do with Snape revealing his Dark Mark. As it's written, that revelation is a spontaneous act of desperation (rare for Snape)in an attempt to force Fudge to face the fact that Voldemort has returned. It was also considerably dangerous. Mel From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 17:05:00 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:05:00 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101209 > Mandy again: > No I haven't seen anything in Draco that hints toward him eventually > fighting LV. > > I'm thinking along the lines of the theory that suggests that the > school must unite to prevent its fall. As we know so few Slytherins, > it seems that presently Draco is the only available candidate to join > Slytherin House with Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. There is > some peculation about Nott, but unless he becomes a major player in > the next book it's unlikely, imo. > > The reasons for Draco joining Harry are going to have to be extreme, > and very interesting. The murder of one or both of Draco's parents > seems the only possibility at the moment. It is possible still to introduce more Slytherins. We got a new character in Luna Lovegood in book 5, so it is entirely possible some new Slyth comes in. I just don't see Draco, barring some life-shattering event, changing his spots at this point. None of the current Slyths that we've met so far are likely candidates. Which makes me wonder if the answer will come not from the future, but the past? There are three separate things in book 5 that make me wonder. 1) The hat's song about Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin being good friends, once. 2) Nearly Headless Nick saying he and the Bloody Baron get along. 3) Phineas Nigellus' reaction to Sirius' death. I do not believe House Slytherin has always been rotten. I'll even give old Salazar, though I still have my doubts about what the basilisk was for, the benefit of the doubt and say that Godric's ideas about teaching Muggle-borns was probably pretty revolutionary in the 11th century, so Sal can be forgiven for reacting badly. (Still don't like the basilisk, though.) Post V-Mort, though, I'd say House Slytherin is basically a cancerous element, taking Salazar's ideas and twisting them, much the same way the Nazis twisted Nietzsche. So perhaps the answer is not in the rotten fruit of the tree like Draco, but in the roots. Darrin -- SEE? I can defend Slytherin. :) From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 17:08:55 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:08:55 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101210 > HOLD IT! > I was happily watching everyone else fight this battle but I HAVE to > step in here. > > NOWHERE is it indicated that DD had ANYTHING to do with Snape > revealing his Dark Mark. As it's written, that revelation is a > spontaneous act of desperation (rare for Snape)in an attempt to > force Fudge to face the fact that Voldemort has returned. > It was also considerably dangerous. > > Mel Yeah, I got this one wrong. I was sure that I'd remembered D-Dore glancing at Snape before he did it, but I rechecked canon. I was wrong about D-Dore's orders. But it is not exactly a secret that Snape was a DE. It was said in open court. Rita Skeeter was there. Fudge should have known. Darrin From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 17:33:59 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theo Nott--Where? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040614173359.15871.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101211 > Lliannanshe: > Theodore Nott's name was first mentioned in OOP chapter 24, 25 or 26 > there about. (I can't remember the name of the chapter) The very > first mention of Nott is SS "The Sorting Hat" just mentions he was > sorted but doesn't tell us which house. Also prior to OOP, Theodore Nott's name made an appearance among the list of names who checked out "Quidditch Through the Ages." D. From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon Jun 14 17:35:41 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:35:41 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101212 "Mandy" > wrote: > > > I'm thinking along the lines of the theory that suggests that the > > school must unite to prevent its fall. As we know so few Slytherins, > > it seems that presently Draco is the only available candidate to join > > Slytherin House with Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. There is > > some peculation about Nott, but unless he becomes a major player in > > the next book it's unlikely, imo. > > > > The reasons for Draco joining Harry are going to have to be extreme, > > and very interesting. The murder of one or both of Draco's parents > > seems the only possibility at the moment.> Jenny added: > > I'm not sure why you think Harry and Draco will fight together for any reason. > I could be wrong, but I swear I read somewhere that JKR herself said that the > two would not unite. Ally: Jenny, you're absolutely right. JKR has specifically said that the idea of Harry and Draco working together is nothing more than an internet rumor. She's also said that people are "getting too fond of Draco" (at the Royal Albert Hall thingy in 2003). I think Draco is not long for the HP universe. Draco is as close to a purely two dimensional portrait of evil as the books have come. Even V has been given more complexity than Draco has. It seems pretty clear to me that JKR has not invested much time in developing him as a character - he's there to be a juvenile thorn in Harry's side - a plot device. I think he'll go on a full-bent revenge quest against Harry and get himself killed trying to do something harmful to Harry or the trio. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jun 14 17:53:34 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:53:34 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101213 Ooh, can I jump in? Can I? Pippin: > > Shall we count the times that Snape has rushed to Harry's aid or > > acted on his behalf? > > > > 1) The troll (PS/SS) Darrin: > > Snape was running to the troll. I doubt he had any idea Harry, > Hermione and Ron were there. As I recall it, Snape went to the third floor to head off Quirrell. That does not show any special concern to protect Harry. It does, however show an intelligent and flexible devotion to duty, which IMO is fairly often seen in Snape. Pippin: > > 2) The broomstick (PS/SS) Darrin: > Yes, he distracted Quirrell long enough for Hermione to finish the > job. The point here, is not whether Snape was effective or not, but the maturity and responsibility of his actions. I see nothing to complain of, and Hermione's contribution was luck (knocking Quirrell over). > > > 3) Referree-ing the second Quidditch match (PS/SS) > > Dumbledore showed up, making Snape's gesture pointless. We don't know the background to this. Of the various possibilities (contingency plans, communications foul-up, independent action, etc.) the only one that reflects badly on Snape is if he decided to go ahead and referee the match without reference to Dumbledore, or despite his orders. At worst, that, IMO, reflects only an excess of zeal. > > > 4) Confronting Quirrell (PS/SS) > > And yet Quirrell still managed to make it all the way to the Stone > and nearly killed Harry. Good job, Snape! Again, we are limited in our knowledge of the background. Dumbledore had as much reason to be suspicious of Quirrell as Snape. There is the interesting possibility here that, as a former DE, Snape had sympathy with Quirrell and wanted to give him every chance to reject Voldemort and side with Dumbledore. In any case, it seems to me that the entire staff, and especially Dumbledore, bears responsibility for letting Quirrell and Harry get to the stone. In OOP, Dumbledore denies that he wanted Harry to confront Voldemort at this age, yet, given what we now know about the prophecy, once he suspected Voldemort was on the loose, there was in fact very little other choice. It is not easy to interpret Snape's role in this wider context, but it is hard to see that he was undermining Dumbledore's strategy. > > 5) Guarding Harry when no one else thought the boy was in any > > danger (PS/SS) > > When was this? I think Pippin has already adressed this. > > > 6) Searching for Harry on the grounds (CoS) > > We don't know what precipitated this. D-Dore might very well have > ordered him to do it. I'm not sure how that makes any difference. Are you trying to argue that Snape is unconcerned or actively trying to undermine Harry's welfare, but only behind Dumbledore's back? > > > 7) Keeping him away from the one-eyed witch (PoA > > 8) Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he > > might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) > > And he failed to listen to anything Harry, Hermione and Ron were > saying, nearly got two Order members killed, and nearly took Harry's > godfather away from him. This particular episode in the history of Snape's motivations has been discussed at enormous length. See my general commetns below. > > > 9) Taking care of unconscious Harry (PoA) > > Had Snape left Harry down there with the Dementors AND a werewolf, > his job wouldn't have been worth 10 cents. I never said Snape didn't > fulfill basic teacher duties (except when Hermione got hit with a > curse) but c'mon, that's not above and beyond. > > And besides, Harry's work later saved the unconscious Snape, so let's > call that even. My reading of this part is that Snape was doing what any decent person would. I doubt he was secretly wishing he could get away with seeing all the people there Kissed, but deciding that he couldn't. As for calling it even, I feel it is fruitless to work out a tally of the good and bad Harry and Snape have done each other, and seeing who is in credit. > > > 10) Confronting Mad-eye, whom he fears, on the stairs to > > ensure Harry's safety (GoF) > > Or how about just trying to catch a student out of bed? I think we probably don't have enough information to say more than that, on hearing a disturbance, he goes to investigate. In typical fashion, he does jump to conclusions about what is going on, but, well, he was right, wasn't he? > > > 11) Revealing his dark mark to Fudge (GoF) > > On orders from D-Dore. This has already been discussed. > > > 12) Believing Harry when he reported Sirius was in danger > > (OOP) > > Had Snape kept that to himself, what good is he to the Order? I don't understand this comment. > > > 13) Searching a forest full of hostile centaurs when Harry was > > missing (OOP) > > He intended to. Did he make it? Again, I'm not sure what you are arguing here. I think it is possible to try to make the case that Snape is in reality a Voldemort supporter, or in pursuing some nefarious deep game of his own, but I had the general impression you are mostly trying to say that Snape is immature and a loose cannon, considered as a supporter of Dumbledore. My reading of the sweep of canon is that Snape is a fairly tireless and effective supporter of Dumbledore. He does, however, have a tendency to independence of mind and action, which often takes him down the wrong path, and makes him all the more vulnerable to giving in to some of his worse motivations. He also has a tendency to believe the worst of Harry, despite the evidence. In these traits, as list members have pointed out, he is something of a mirror to Harry. This has little to do with moral equivalence, it's just a literary observation. David From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 18:05:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:05:17 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101214 Darrin wrote : > McGonagall, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Moody, Lupin, Sirius and all the > other members of the Order of the Phoenix did quite a bit during the > war too. > > Don't see them reacting this way to Harry. Del replies : Who ever said that everyone should react the same way to the same things ? People don't, in real life. Especially when they were NOT the same things : as you like to point out again and again, Snape started the war on the wrong side, and as DD pointed out, he changed sides at great personal risk. BIG difference. Darrin wrote : > My problem is not with people who pity Snape, hope Snape gets it > together or enjoy him for his humanity. > > My problem is with people who admire him and apologize for him. Del replies : And why should that be a problem to you ? It so happens that many of us know and love people who are not nice. We know they are not nice, but we also know some of the reasons why they are not nice. And so next time we meet someone who's not nice but who seems to have a painful background, we might be enclined to cut him some slack. I don't see why that should be a problem for YOU. Just leave us alone. And by the way, I don't like Snape, but I do admire him for having the courage to change sides when that might have meant death. I don't see anything wrong for giving credit where it's due. I don't like Snape's teaching methods, but I admire his role in the current war. And I don't see what's wrong with that. Darrin wrote : > Whether it's James or it's resentment over the war, Snape needs to > get over it. Del replies : You're talking about deep emotional issues like they were just some kind of stains on the floor that just need to be brushed away. It just doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Snape needs professional help to get over those issues, and he's not getting it. And considering the stress he's been under lately (and the chronic stress he's been living with almost all his life), I consider it quite normal that he should explode once in a while. Just like another person who's been letting off steam in OoP. Unless you truly mean that only teenagers are allowed to have emotional issues ? Then I would counsel you to open your eyes and look around you : you'll find that MANY adults are dealing with deep emotional problems as best they can, and sometimes it's really not pretty. Darrin wrote : > And Harry is ridiculed, slandered and put through hideous detentions > for his insistence on V-Mort's return. Perhaps Harry IS pulling his > weight now, so Snape, once again, should let the hell up. Del replies : I don't remember Snape doing anything to get in the way of Harry as far as fighting Umbridge goes. In fact, he's been helping him. Darrin wrote : > But again, McGonagall was out there fighting when Snape was in > school. And soon after Snape graduated Hogwarts, he became a DE. He > WAS a DE for a period of time. Del replies : It's just a mere technicality, but we don't know for sure that McGonagall was out there fighting LV. She doesn't seem to have belonged to the first Order. And yes, Snape was a DE for a while, until he apparently realised he'd been enrolled by the wrong camp. I find it admirable that he should then have the courage to change side. He didn't just drop the whole thing, he actually became a fighter for the good side. Darrin wrote : > OK, fair enough. Maybe the teachers realize that Draco doesn't have > to turn into what his father did. > > Wouldn't it be loverly if Snape realized that about Harry? After > all, James isn't around to influence Harry. > > Other teachers are working against Lucius' influence. Del replies : Many people on this list believe that Snape has to maintain good relationships with Lucius, as part of his spy job. James might not be there to influence Harry, but his memory and the way other people talked about him were enough to influence Harry. For 4 years, Snape kept telling Harry that his father, while in school, wasn't the saint everyone described him as, but Harry never believed him. Too bad, because Snape was right. Darrin wrote : > Never once have I said Harry can do no wrong. Check the tapes. I've > never said that. My problem has always been with the moral > equivalency some try to put forward on this list. > > It goes something like this: > > Harry broke the rules to rescue Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets. > > Draco broke the rules to try to knock Harry off the broom in PoA. > > Harry & Draco - Both rulebreakers! > > Or like this: > > Snape took off on Harry from the very first day of class. > > Harry doesn't give Snape a chance! > > Harry & Snape - both to blame! Del replies : I don't know about others, but I've never tried to level out people's faults. I've just been pointing out that *everyone* was guilty of something, that everything was not Snape's fault, and that Harry was no little saint, even if Harry is the hero. Darrin wrote : > And I have a major problem with downplaying what Harry has gone > through in order to make Snape the star of the piece. Del replies : You know what ? I do too. But I've learned to just let those Snape-lovers alone. I let them have their fun the way they like, it's their right to wear rose-coloured glasses where Snape is concerned if they want. JKR didn't put a warning in her books forbidding people to like Snape, so why should we ? In real life, not everyone likes the same people, thankfully ! And we're always tempted to absolve our loved ones' faults, while criticising every little mistake that people we don't like may make. It's human. Darrin wrote : > And please. I doubt I will "suffer" anything on the list besides > getting a lot of posters upset with me. Done it before. Del replies : Yes, and it sounded like you hadn't liked it the first time around. You said it made you leabe the list for a while. So why do it again ? Darrin wrote : > I don't care if people have differing opinions or not. I'm pointing > out how ludicrous it is when people's best shots at Harry have to do > with "being upset with the Creevey" brothers, as if that MATTERS to > the price of eggs. Del replies : I have much deeper concers with Harry than the Creevey brothers. Things that DO matter to the price of eggs. Darrin wrote : > I find the moral equivalency offensive. Del replies : And I find the white-washing of Harry's faults offensive. Harry is a true human being, and he does things that annoy me sometimes. He's not the kind of kid I'm fond of, and I woudn't want much to do with him in real life. And I don't see why I should change my preferences concerning him just because he happens to be the hero of the books. Del From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 14 18:06:48 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:06:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101215 I like the greenish smoke idea. But I would bet that there were far more than 3 spells cast. When James (or whoever else was there if you dont believe it was James) said "You go, ill hold him off!," that he didnt just stand in the path of Voldy. I imagine he dueled with him for several minutes. Harry did in the graveyard, so why couldnt James? A few shield charms or something? Jason Gina: Hey someone with a book quick! In the graveyard scene GoF didn't LV say something to Harry about not hiding and that he could at least be brave like his father? What was that paragraph? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 14 18:14:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:14:00 -0000 Subject: Draco for Head Boy. was: Malfoy the prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101216 Darrin wrote: > It is possible still to introduce more Slytherins. We got a new > character in Luna Lovegood in book 5, so it is entirely possible some > new Slyth comes in. > > I just don't see Draco, barring some life-shattering event, changing > his spots at this point. > > None of the current Slyths that we've met so far are likely > candidates. > > Which makes me wonder if the answer will come not from the future, > but the past? There are three separate things in book 5 that make me > wonder. > >snip Potioncat: Hi, Darrin, welcome to the other side. Although it does exist on some other Lists, most of the posts I've seen don't so much favor Slytherin, as look for the surprise in Slytherin. It feels as if we've been set up to dislike the House, and knowing JKR as we do, we're expecting someone good to show up. A lot of the defenders have been saying that many of the qualities that "belong" to Slytherin, are qualities not vices in order to support the ideas that Slytherin House itself is not inately bad. And of course if JKR does not surprise us, that will surprise us too. Potioncat From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Mon Jun 14 18:28:44 2004 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:28:44 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040614182844.18907.qmail@web41208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101217 > Gina: > Hey someone with a book quick! In the graveyard > scene GoF didn't LV say > something to Harry about not hiding and that he > could at least be brave like > his father? What was that paragraph? > Vinnia: LV didn't say that. --Start quote p574-575 UK GoF-- 'We are mot playing hide-and-seek, Harry,' said Voldemort's soft, cold voice, drawing neared, as the Death Eaters laughed. 'You cannot hide from me. Does this mean you are tired of our duel? Does this mean that you would prefer me to finish it now, Harry? Come out, Harry..come out and play, then...it will be quick...it might even be painless..I would not know...I have never died...' --end quote-- I think the paragraph you are looking for is the next one: --start quote GoF p575 UK-- And as he heard Voldemort draw nearer still, he knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason - he was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet...he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defence was possible... --end quote-- Vinnia Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 14 18:34:46 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:34:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come Message-ID: <43AF2F15.410753DB.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101218 The little hint that I picked up when re-reading CoS was one line "Conjuring up portable, waterproof fires was a specialty of Hermione's" (I left my book at work, but I know it's right after Harry re-grows the bones in his arm. The line seemed very random to me. I can remember her conjuring a fire a few times (Devil's Snare, setting Severus on fire, the fire they had while reading a book), but it didn't seem necessary to me to mention that it's a specialty of hers. If it's been mentioned and I missed it (which is entirely possible), I apologize. Oryomai From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 14 18:39:18 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:39:18 -0000 Subject: Harry (Was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101219 > Del replied, bashing Darrin's Snape-bashing : > You're talking about deep emotional issues like they were just some > kind of stains on the floor that just need to be brushed away. It just > doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Snape needs professional help to get > over those issues, and he's not getting it. And considering the stress > he's been under lately (and the chronic stress he's been living with > almost all his life), I consider it quite normal that he should > explode once in a while. Just like another person who's been letting > off steam in OoP. Unless you truly mean that only teenagers are > allowed to have emotional issues ? Then I would counsel you to open > your eyes and look around you : you'll find that MANY adults are > dealing with deep emotional problems as best they can, and sometimes > it's really not pretty.> True, Snape has some very real issues. It is clear to me he is an unhappy, possibly very lonely man. He doesn't appear to be in a job he enjoys and we now know that within that job, he doesn't even have the position he always wanted. The glimpse into the Pensieve we saw with Harry does make my heart go out to him. I still can't excuse him, though, for holding onto a grudge for a dead man to the point where he takes it out on the son. I also must agree with Darrin when he points out that Snape is the adult. As a teacher, there have been times when I would have loved nothing more than to let a student have it, but I don't. I can't. There are students I don't like very much, but I give them the grades they earn (no one says I'm unfair at my school). In fact, students think I have no favorites (I've heard them say it), but I do. Why can't Snape do that? Del again: > James might not be there to influence Harry, but his memory and the > way other people talked about him were enough to influence Harry. For > 4 years, Snape kept telling Harry that his father, while in school, > wasn't the saint everyone described him as, but Harry never believed > him. Too bad, because Snape was right.> Well, in a way Snape was right. James *was* pretty awful there, but he was also a kid behaving like one (certainly one I'd stay away from, but a kid nonetheless). Snape was no innocent victim either. I can't blame Harry for not believing Snape; it is clear Snape has personal issues with James and isn't too objective there. Harry needed to learn on his own that his father was a real person with real faults, not through someone else's words. We also know that James changed, or Lily wouldn't have given him a chance. > Del, sadly, says of my Harry: > And I find the white-washing of Harry's faults offensive. Harry is a > true human being, and he does things that annoy me sometimes. He's not > the kind of kid I'm fond of, and I woudn't want much to do with him in > real life. And I don't see why I should change my preferences > concerning him just because he happens to be the hero of the books.> Point taken. We all have different reactions to different people, and yes, that is a good thing. I'd trust Harry with my life if I was a witch at Hogwarts. I know he has developed some issues that need to be dealt with, and fast, like his temper and his emotions that seem never to be checked. However, he has integrity that makes him the hero he is. I love that he realized Cho was not the girl for him, not because he found her annoying, or petty, or superficial, but because she defended someone who should not have been defended. She made excuses in a situation that caused a hell of a lot of problems and Harry couldn't tolerate that. I love Harry for standing up to Umbridge, even though he knew he'd get in trouble. I love that he chose punishment over keeping his mouth shut and simply going along. I love him for teaching DADA to his peers and taking such risks to do so. I even kind of really liked that he let it all out in OoP; he needed to do that. I believe he'll spend time in book six learning to control his emotions because he'll know he needs to do so. I was waiting for Harry to really speak up for himself and I'm glad he did, even when people didn't believe him. I can see why some people don't like Harry and that's fine. It's good even, because then I can have Harry all to myself. :-) --jenny from ravenclaw, not confusing reality with fantasy and knowing her sweetie understands this Harry thing *********************************************** From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 14 18:40:11 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:40:11 -0000 Subject: Harry (Was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101220 > Del replied, bashing Darrin's Snape-bashing : > You're talking about deep emotional issues like they were just some > kind of stains on the floor that just need to be brushed away. It just > doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Snape needs professional help to get > over those issues, and he's not getting it. And considering the stress > he's been under lately (and the chronic stress he's been living with > almost all his life), I consider it quite normal that he should > explode once in a while. Just like another person who's been letting > off steam in OoP. Unless you truly mean that only teenagers are > allowed to have emotional issues ? Then I would counsel you to open > your eyes and look around you : you'll find that MANY adults are > dealing with deep emotional problems as best they can, and sometimes > it's really not pretty.> True, Snape has some very real issues. It is clear to me he is an unhappy, possibly very lonely man. He doesn't appear to be in a job he enjoys and we now know that within that job, he doesn't even have the position he always wanted. The glimpse into the Pensieve we saw with Harry does make my heart go out to him. I still can't excuse him, though, for holding onto a grudge for a dead man to the point where he takes it out on the son. I also must agree with Darrin when he points out that Snape is the adult. As a teacher, there have been times when I would have loved nothing more than to let a student have it, but I don't. I can't. There are students I don't like very much, but I give them the grades they earn (no one says I'm unfair at my school). In fact, students think I have no favorites (I've heard them say it), but I do. Why can't Snape do that? Del again: > James might not be there to influence Harry, but his memory and the > way other people talked about him were enough to influence Harry. For > 4 years, Snape kept telling Harry that his father, while in school, > wasn't the saint everyone described him as, but Harry never believed > him. Too bad, because Snape was right.> Well, in a way Snape was right. James *was* pretty awful there, but he was also a kid behaving like one (certainly one I'd stay away from, but a kid nonetheless). Snape was no innocent victim either. I can't blame Harry for not believing Snape; it is clear Snape has personal issues with James and isn't too objective there. Harry needed to learn on his own that his father was a real person with real faults, not through someone else's words. We also know that James changed, or Lily wouldn't have given him a chance. > Del, sadly, says of my Harry: > And I find the white-washing of Harry's faults offensive. Harry is a > true human being, and he does things that annoy me sometimes. He's not > the kind of kid I'm fond of, and I woudn't want much to do with him in > real life. And I don't see why I should change my preferences > concerning him just because he happens to be the hero of the books.> Point taken. We all have different reactions to different people, and yes, that is a good thing. I'd trust Harry with my life if I was a witch at Hogwarts. I know he has developed some issues that need to be dealt with, and fast, like his temper and his emotions that seem never to be checked. However, he has integrity that makes him the hero he is. I love that he realized Cho was not the girl for him, not because he found her annoying, or petty, or superficial, but because she defended someone who should not have been defended. She made excuses in a situation that caused a hell of a lot of problems and Harry couldn't tolerate that. I love Harry for standing up to Umbridge, even though he knew he'd get in trouble. I love that he chose punishment over keeping his mouth shut and simply going along. I love him for teaching DADA to his peers and taking such risks to do so. I even kind of really liked that he let it all out in OoP; he needed to do that. I believe he'll spend time in book six learning to control his emotions because he'll know he needs to do so. I was waiting for Harry to really speak up for himself and I'm glad he did, even when people didn't believe him. I can see why some people don't like Harry and that's fine. It's good even, because then I can have Harry all to myself. :-) --jenny from ravenclaw, not confusing reality with fantasy and knowing her sweetie understands this Harry thing *********************************************** From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 18:47:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:47:59 -0000 Subject: Harry (Was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" < Alla snips major part of Jenny's excelent post Jenny: > Point taken. We all have different reactions to different people, and yes, that > is a good thing. I'd trust Harry with my life if I was a witch at Hogwarts. I > know he has developed some issues that need to be dealt with, and fast, like > his temper and his emotions that seem never to be checked. However, he > has integrity that makes him the hero he is. I love that he realized Cho was > not the girl for him, not because he found her annoying, or petty, or > superficial, but because she defended someone who should not have been > defended. She made excuses in a situation that caused a hell of a lot of > problems and Harry couldn't tolerate that. > > I love Harry for standing up to Umbridge, even though he knew he'd get in > trouble. I love that he chose punishment over keeping his mouth shut and > simply going along. > > I love him for teaching DADA to his peers and taking such risks to do so. > > I even kind of really liked that he let it all out in OoP; he needed to do that. I > believe he'll spend time in book six learning to control his emotions because > he'll know he needs to do so. I was waiting for Harry to really speak up for > himself and I'm glad he did, even when people didn't believe him. > Alla: Yes, Jenny those are the reasons I love Harry too. :o) I want to add a few. I love that in the tense situation of the Shrieking Shack, he found a time to think about Sirius and Remus first, not about his revenge of his parents. I love that Harry was compassionate enough to think about Luna when he just lost Sirius. List can go on and on and on.:o) Jenny: > I can see why some people don't like Harry and that's fine. It's good even, > because then I can have Harry all to myself. :-) > > --jenny from ravenclaw, not confusing reality with fantasy and knowing her > sweetie understands this Harry thing *********************************************** Alla: Exactly. :o) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 18:49:45 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:49:45 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: <43AF2F15.410753DB.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > The little hint that I picked up when re-reading CoS was one line "Conjuring up portable, waterproof fires was a specialty of Hermione's" (I left my book at work, but I know it's right after Harry re-grows the bones in his arm. The line seemed very random to me. I can remember her conjuring a fire a few times (Devil's Snare, setting Severus on fire, the fire they had while reading a book), but it didn't seem necessary to me to mention that it's a specialty of hers. If it's been mentioned and I missed it (which is entirely possible), I apologize. > > Oryomai That part struck me as interesting as well, though I didn'think about it being the "little hint". I was thinking along the lines of it hinting at what Hermione's specialty was going to be, since clearly she's really good at most aspects of magic. Conjuring/transformations might be her forte. Perhaps she'll end up teaching Transformation at school after DD's dead and McG becomes Headmistress. Susan :-) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 14 19:05:48 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:05:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101223 I think the paragraph you are looking for is the next one: --start quote GoF p575 UK-- And as he heard Voldemort draw nearer still, he knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason - he was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet...he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defence was possible... --end quote-- Vinnia Gina : You are right. I was thinking LV said it. Oh well I tried. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clr1971 at alltel.net Mon Jun 14 13:19:26 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:19:26 -0400 Subject: Snape & Harry References: <1087175608.5328.98705.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004401c45212$37cbab40$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101224 >[Kneasy]:Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, >>(though not always) when Harry has done something >particularly brainless, or marks docked; marks, by the way that >don't matter. How many exams has Harry failed? Zero. Christina: What about when he purposely broke Harry's potion vial in OotP and gave him a 0? That was done deliberately. Snape is not my favorite teacher and I admit there is something more we need to learn about him. We just broke the surface in OotP. But after so many years of unfair behavior - punishing Harry & other Gryffindors when Draco picks on them, breaking his potions vial, making those scathing comments (which do hurt a person, BTW), well I wouldn't trust him much either. Christina in GA - Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! ________________________________________________________________________ From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon Jun 14 08:51:24 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:51:24 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101225 > Mel: > JKR has > intimated that the motivation behind "the prank" was nothing more > than Sirius' hatred of Snape. And Snape sees that as attempted > murder. > Alla: > > No, she did not. She also said that 'you will learn more about that" Christelle finds the transcript: Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. Ok, it wasn't hatred, but loathing. > Mel: > DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as > > it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was > > too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was if > > the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. > > > Alla: Dumbledore shrugged it off? Could be, I'll grant you that. It > also can be that Dumbledore remembers something about Snape hurting > Sirius so badly that he .... undestands why Sirius did that. If Sirius's words worth something: P. 356 PoA [Remus]"...you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me--" Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." If Snape tried something really horrible, why Sirius didn't tell? Christelle From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 14:21:29 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:21:29 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101226 Barbara wrote: >I was under the impression that Pettigrew went to the Weasleys >because he knew Arthur worked at the MoM and could, by being around >them and listening in, monitor whether or not V-Mort was regaining >power or if something were to happen with Sirius. Leah: I wonder how well Peter knew the Weasleys prior to his life as a rat. I have always thought (with no canon proof whatsoever) that they were a deliberate choice as host family. I think of Arthur as keeping Molly up to date each evening with everything that's going on at the MOM. They also had a growing family, which would give PP an insight into life at Hogwarts and DD in particular. But did he hide out in the pet shop, waiting for a red haired child or make his way to the MOM and hide out in Arthur's briefcase? BTW: How did Sirius know where to find PP after Godric's Hollow? Leah From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 15:06:24 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:06:24 -0000 Subject: Why Tom? (re: wizard genetics and long-lived) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101227 In COS, Diary Tom tells Harry that they are probably the only Parseltongues to attend Hogwarts in the last 1000 years. As we know, but Diary Tom didn't, Harry's ability to talk to snakes is not innate, but was transferred to him at Godric's Hollow. So, if we take Diary Tom's word for it, he is the only Parseltongue to attend Hogwarts in the last 1000 years. Is the ability to speak Parseltongue genetic? If so, that's one heck of a recessive gene- and why would it be activated in a witch/muggle mating? It doesn't appear to be possible to learn it, considering the many gifted wizards who can't do it. We know Tom is the Heir because he can open the Chamber, but is it anywhere directly said that his mother is descended from Salazar? I thought it was in COS, but I can't find it. Who did Salazar have this family with? Choosing Rowena or Helga would make Tom the Heir of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff as well, which seems unlikely, so can we assume a child born during his wanderings post-Hogwarts. Perhaps the Parseltongue gene descended from Salazar through a very long line of squibs, and was activated by Tom Snr's marriage to a witch. That's a nice thought. Or could Parseltongue have been a gift of VaporMort? I like this one, but Harry needed Parseltongue to access the chamber, so I assume the same would have applied to Tom. Am I missing something here? Leah From thebusylife at excite.com Mon Jun 14 16:01:43 2004 From: thebusylife at excite.com (Dawn) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:01:43 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Alla wrote: > > And Hat could have its ulteriour motives wanting to place Harry > > there. I don't know- changing Slytherin House for the better from > > inside? Potioncat: > The Sorting Hat said Slytherin would make him great. Can anyone > work out how that would have played? I cannot imagine Harry Potter > in the Slytherin dorm with Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Especially > with Snape as the Head of House. Dawn replies: But did the hat really WANT to put Harry in Slytherin? I thought that when the hat was placed on his head, Harry started saying "Please not Slytherin." That's when the hat started telling him about how he could be great there. But I don't believe that it is said whether the hat actually WANTED to put him there. Dawn From isilvalacirca at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 18:30:14 2004 From: isilvalacirca at yahoo.com (Lanthiriel S) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] That Horrid Boy (was: Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: <1087222063.9425.4923.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040614183014.40241.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101229 --- HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: Message: 13 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:38:59 -0000 From: "Jacqui" Subject: That Horrid Boy (was: Re: Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) Meri said: > I'm thinking that this is one of JKR's red > >herrings: we are meant to wonder who she is >referring to, but it is almost certainly James. (And >if you want another reason why I think it is almost >certainly *not* Snape, just reread the "Snape's >Worst Memory" chapter. I don't think that even > kindhearted Lily would have had anything to do with >Snape after that.) Jacqui said: >Meri, I have to agree with you on this one. What >Snape called Lily was a terrible insult. >Considering that when this happened it was the end >of the fifth year, because they had just finished >their exams. Is it really possible for Lily to some >how completly forgive Snape for what he said and >date him in the sixth year, then start dating James >in year seven? Even if that was possible, why would >Snape date a muggle-born? We all know how badly >that is frowned upon while in Slytherin. I realize now that I expressed myself very poorly in my original message by referring to "Snape/Lily" in that particular manner, seemingly suggesting that I believe they had a romantic relationship. I do not. What I do believe is that there may have been some kind of connection between them that has not yet been revealed in the books. I don't really know why I believe this - it's just a vague feeling more than anything else, and relates to my belief that there was a much more profound reason for Snape and James's mutual hatred. (If there was anything *romantic* in the Snape/Lily connection, it was very likely one-sided and kept secret. But, as I said, I don't think the connection was romantic). That said, I don't think Snape's insult in the "Worst Memory" chapter proves or disproves anything, except that Snape is as capable as James of being a real jerk. Horrible as the insult was, people are capable of saying truly awful, hurtful things - even to people they care for - in moments when they have been pushed beyond their better judgment and self-control. Besides that, it is not said when Petunia saw this "awful boy" with her sister. What of all the time before their fifth year? It's completely possible that two people who knew each other would keep their distance at Hogwarts - even to the point of acting as if the other person didn't exist - for any number of reasons. Besides, "the awful boy" Petunia spoke of wasn't referred to as having a romantic, or even a close, relationship with Lily - all Petunia said was that she overheard him telling her sister about the Dementors. That's it. He could have been a neighbor, a distant relation, someone who dropped by one day. It was very probably James Petunia was referring to. But then again, it's fun to speculate that it wasn't. Lanthiriel S (who also realizes she misquoted Petunia, who said "awful" rather than "horrid") __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 14 19:17:47 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:17:47 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101230 > Leah: > BTW: How did Sirius know where to find PP after Godric's Hollow? Jen: I'll bet Peter lured him there, either on pretense or because he knew Sirius would come, whatever the danger. Sirius as a younger man would find it even more difficult to pass up the opportunity to arrest or kill Pettigrew, even if he knew he was walking into a trap. In his loyalty and arrogance, Sirius probably thought he would come out on top because of Peter's 'inferior magical ability', but that's where Sirius underestimates Peter--Peter has his own power as a wizard, probably helped along by being friends with James & Sirius. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:21:31 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > > > > Mel previously: > > DD shrugged it off with the aside 'my memory is as good as > > > it ever was' back in PoA. He doesn't seem to think THAT wound was > > > too deep. I shudder to think what the wound James inflicted was > if > > > the same DD is saying that it 'runs too deep for the healing. > > > > > > Alla previously: Dumbledore shrugged it off? Could be, I'll grant you that. It > > also can be that Dumbledore remembers something about Snape hurting > > Sirius so badly that he .... undestands why Sirius did that. > > Cristelle: > If Sirius's words worth something: > > > P. 356 PoA > > [Remus]"...you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly > killed him, a trick which involved me--" > Black made a derisive noise. > "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find > out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." > > > If Snape tried something really horrible, why Sirius didn't tell? > > Alla: Because it was too early to reveal this particular mystery in PoA? Sounds more like book 6 or 7 revelation. :o) Seriously though, I think plot-wise is very important reason. In addition, Sirius was not exactly in the right state of mind to go into deep discussions about Snape. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:23:43 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:23:43 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" wrote: > Dawn: > > But did the hat really WANT to put Harry in Slytherin? I thought > that when the hat was placed on his head, Harry started > saying "Please not Slytherin." That's when the hat started telling > him about how he could be great there. But I don't believe that it > is said whether the hat actually WANTED to put him there. > Dawn Alla: Dawn, thank you. That is exactly what I meant. Even though Rowling calls Hat "sincere". I am not sure at all that it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. Probably Hat was testing him in its own bizarre way. :) Alla From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:25:57 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:25:57 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: <004401c45212$37cbab40$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christina in GA" wrote: > >[Kneasy]:Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, > >>(though not always) when Harry has done something >particularly brainless, > or marks docked; marks, by the way that >don't matter. How many exams has > Harry failed? Zero. > > Christina: What about when he purposely broke Harry's potion vial in OotP > and gave him a 0? That was done deliberately. Snape is not my favorite > teacher and I admit there is something more we need to learn about him. We > just broke the surface in OotP. But after so many years of unfair behavior - > punishing Harry & other Gryffindors when Draco picks on them, breaking his > potions vial, making those scathing comments (which do hurt a person, BTW), > well I wouldn't trust him much either. > > Christina in GA - Visit my Ebay Store! > http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store > Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! > ______________________________________________________________________ __ BTW, there's also a part in CoS that says, without any explanation whatsoever, "Harry had been held back in Potions, where Snape had made him stay behind to scrape tubeworms off the desks" (9:146). Doesn't say anything about why Harry had to do it, and it clearly says desks, not just Harry's desk because he spilled tubeworms or something. Susan (who thinks it's obvious that JKR wants her readers to think that Snape treats Harry unfairly). From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 19:29:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:29:18 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > But it is not exactly a secret that Snape was a DE. It was said in > open court. Rita Skeeter was there. Fudge should have known. It is a secret. Sirius does not know, in GoF, that Snape was a DE. In fact, he can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire him if that were the case. (chapter 27, GoF) Wouldn't the parents and the Daily Prophey be at least as exercised about that as they are about werewolves and half-giants? Wouldn't Umbridge want to question Snape about his past, and whether he knew the whereabouts of Sirius Black? It's odd that Fudge didn't tell her. But then he would have had to admit that Snape's mark was genuine and that Voldemort had returned. So instead he's dismissive-- asks what Dumbledore and his staff are playing at. He probably can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire a former DE either. Rita Skeeter was not present at Karkaroff's trial AFAWK. She was at Bagman's. The trial of the Longbottom Four was also public, or so Sirius reports. However, we have no information about whether Karkaroff's trial was open or not. Of course there were a lot of people present, but it seems there's no limit to how many can be restrained by a Secret Keeper spell. It is curious that Sirius believes that Karkaroff was able to betray a number of Death Eaters "he put a load of other people into Azkaban in his place" (GoF ch 19) when from what we see in the Pensieve, Karkaroff actually betrayed only Rookwood. The other people he tried to give away had already been discovered...and by whom? One of Dumbledore's useful spies, I suppose. My theory is Snape's cover is intact because Karkaroff was blamed for all his betrayals. Pippin From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:32:51 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:32:51 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Leah: > > BTW: How did Sirius know where to find PP after Godric's Hollow? > > > Jen: I'll bet Peter lured him there, either on pretense or because > he knew Sirius would come, whatever the danger. Sirius as a younger > man would find it even more difficult to pass up the opportunity to > arrest or kill Pettigrew, even if he knew he was walking into a > trap. In his loyalty and arrogance, Sirius probably thought he would > come out on top because of Peter's 'inferior magical ability', but > that's where Sirius underestimates Peter--Peter has his own power as > a wizard, probably helped along by being friends with James & > Sirius. I've often wondered about this as well. How easy is it to track someone who can become invisible, apparate, turn into a tiny (although fat) rat, etc. IMHO, I think Peter probably lured Sirius precicely so he could frame him. That way, no one, DEs or Order Members, would continue looking for him (Peter). And I'm sure, having known Sirius for so long, that Peter was positive that Sirius' confidence in his abilities and shock/anger/pain, etc., would come after him with a vengeance. Susan :-) From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Jun 14 19:32:56 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040614193256.30413.qmail@web60401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101236 I couldn't agree more! Thanks for sending that post, Amicalement, Iris Kelley wrote: Hello, everyone. >From the HBF: "We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions are the reasons for this group's existence. As adults, we expect everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another without being snide or insulting. Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the argument. Do not attack or insult other list members. If you find yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read your response later and find a way to make your point without attacking others. Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull offending threads. --Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Cr?ez votre Yahoo! Mail Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis gr?ce ? Yahoo! Messenger ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:40:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:40:49 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > >darrin previously: > > Ohmygod. Where to begin. > > > > * Attempted murder of Harry with the Dementor prank in PoA. > > > > * Repeated attempts to get Hagrid fired. > > > > * Attempts to maim Harry before Quidditch matches > > > > Kneasy: > Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? > That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. Alla: Well, let's see. They knew about Harry's reaction to Dementors. They dressed up as Dementors. Are you saying that they did not know that Harry may fall off the broom? Alla From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon Jun 14 19:43:41 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:43:41 -0000 Subject: The Snape/Harry connection (was: what if all teachers were like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101238 David: > My reading of the sweep of canon is that Snape is a fairly tireless > and effective supporter of Dumbledore. He does, however, have a > tendency to independence of mind and action, which often takes him > down the wrong path, and makes him all the more vulnerable to giving > in to some of his worse motivations. He also has a tendency to > believe the worst of Harry, despite the evidence. In these traits, > as list members have pointed out, he is something of a mirror to > Harry. This has little to do with moral equivalence, it's just a > literary observation. > Ally: Just had to say, word. Harry and Snape do seem to walk in each other's shoes a bit - Snape can't see past Harry's rule-breaking, and Harry is obviously and understandably put off by the fact that Snape has hated him since the beginning. It seems like there is a distinct if subtle pattern here: 1) DD compares James and Snape to Draco and Harry, but who is who in the present day? It seems to me that in the pensieve scene, James plays the role of Draco - the unprovoked aggressor. Snape is left to react, much the way Harry does with Draco. 2) The fact that both are willing to, as you put it, believe the worst in each other, despite the fact that they have both been confronted with evidence that that is not the case. 3) And I always think about the occlumency lesson where Snape goes off about the danger of wearing your emotions on your sleeve and how that makes you easy prey to V - that seemed like Snape talking about himself to me. I could imagine Snape having been preyed on b/c his emotions were so apparent. And Harry is also one who wears his emotions on his sleeve most of the time. 4) Harry's rage at Snape after Sirius died which comes out of him blaming wrongly Snape for Sirius' death, is just as misplaced as Snape's hatred of Harry for the things James did. There are probably a lot more, but these came to mind fairly easily. SO, is JKR actually building something here, or are these just coincidental or otherwise insignificant similarities? I find it hard to ignore them, b/c there are so many separate incidents in which they have been shown. They keep recurring but in ways just subtle enough that they can be missed if you aren't looking closely. I don't think JKR would do something like use this to build an epiphany for Snape - and the Snape/Harry somehow related theories are a little too pat for JKR, I think. But maybe Snape is a blueprint of things to come for Harry? After all, Harry more closely resembles Snape at the end of OOTP with his misplaced anger than he ever has in any of the other books. Maybe Harry will be tempted to actually join V at some point in Book 6 or 7? Maybe he will otherwise do something that is so reminiscent of Snape that not even Harry can ignore the similarities and he has the epiphany? If Snape and Harry ever do come to an agreement to work together for the Order, Harry will have to be the one to make the gesture or request, and Harry is certainly not in a position to take that step emotionally at this point. But if Harry saw that he and Snape are more alike than he believed, he might approach Snape for guidance. It would be a huge step for Harry and Snape would probably be stroked enough by it that he would respond equally well. Any other thoughts on the similarities b/n Snape and Harry and what they could mean? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:46:26 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:46:26 -0000 Subject: Snape, MWPP,Draco,Trio Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101239 K, I am really sorry I cannot find the post or person who worded Draco & Co's actions at the PoA Quiddich match as a prank, but wow did that make me think. First it was said that Draco & Co nearly murdered Harry/intended to murder Harry, then that exact sitch was called a prank. Hmmm. Sound familiar? Now, for those of you who do not believe that Draco and Harry will work together, I can't say that I believe that either, but it could be a possibility. Just as Harry and Snape have had to/will have to work together for the good of the WW, perhaps this leaves a window open for DM. I'm NOT saying that the Good Trio and Evil Trio will learn to love each other and work harmoniously together, but if something pushes Draco towards the good side, similar perhaps to whatever it was that made Snape leave LV, then perhaps they will begrudgingly work together. At the very least, Draco has as sidekicks probably the two stupidest kids in school. Harry, OTOH, has two really bright people as part of his clan. If they continue to be enemies, anything that DM & Co try will be laughably ineffectual (IMHO). Susan (who'd love to see any diligent poster's comparison b/t Snape & Draco, or comparisons b/t Snape MWPP, and the two trios). From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon Jun 14 19:50:49 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:50:49 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > >darrin previously: > > > Ohmygod. Where to begin. > > > > > > * Attempted murder of Harry with the Dementor prank in PoA. > > > > > > * Repeated attempts to get Hagrid fired. > > > > > > * Attempts to maim Harry before Quidditch matches > > > > > > > Kneasy: > > Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? > > That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. > > > Alla: > > Well, let's see. They knew about Harry's reaction to Dementors. They > dressed up as Dementors. > > Are you saying that they did not know that Harry may fall off the > broom? > > > Alla Ally: But Alla, you've argued previously that Sirius didn't commit attempted murder when he sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack, didn't you (I honestly don't remember exactly, but it seems like that was your point in that discussion - correct me if I'm wrong)? If so, why is this attempted murder and Sirius' actions were not? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 14 19:54:14 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:54:14 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > By the way I think that DD has been time-traveling through-out the > books. I've started putting together a list of curious > statements/situations. Jen: I think you're right on this! Esp. after seeing the film, when DD seemed to have more than a passing acquaintance with the time- turner. But...to get back on-topic. In the book, Dumbledore doesn't go as in-depth on the Time-turner, but he knows the rules, and is aware Hermione has a TT. Perhaps that's even *his* TT they use? He's just full of useful magical objects. What are the other clues you've found, vmonte? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 19:57:24 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:57:24 -0000 Subject: Racism and Snape's grudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101242 Stepping aside from the ping pong match for the moment, we have been treating Slytherin House's blood-ism as if it were purely a ploy to hold on to power. But what if that's not the case? What if Snape, for example, sincerely believes that character is inherited? Then he might believe that he himself has no choice but to be like his abusive father and that Harry *has* to be arrogant because James was. Sirius, whom we know was brought up in a blood-ist household, also seems to have vestiges of that idea, and to think that Harry ought to have inherited a liking for risk from James. It's interesting where this might lead Snape with Draco, because it seems that Snape wanted to believe Lucius had only worked for Voldemort because of the Imperius curse. Now that Lucius's involvement with Voldemort is beyond question, it might be that for Snape to think it possible to save Draco, he will have to change his beliefs. And that might, in turn, result in Snape's seeing Harry in a different way, even if Draco himself does turn out to be nothing more than a chip off the old block. Pippin who notes that the Chamber of Secrets, like the Room of Requirement, was able to provide Harry with what he needed. Maybe Tom only found a basilisk and a gigantic statue of Slytherin in the Chamber because he wanted to. From KLMF at aol.com Mon Jun 14 19:57:57 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:57:57 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101243 Would just like to speak up on this topic, though it's probably already come up.....Snape seems to enjoy treating Neville in a demeaning matter nearly as much as he enjoys doing it to Harry. And Neville doesn't "ask" for it unless you count being clumsy , forgetful and timid as intentional provocation. Could there be, to Snape's thinking, some kind of relationship between Harry and Neville that warrants, in Snape's mind, such treatment to both? Could both Harry and Neville's reference in the Prophecy have something to do with this? Karen F From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 20:11:44 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:11:44 -0000 Subject: Harry (Was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101244 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I still can't excuse Snape, though, for holding onto a grudge for a > dead man to the point where he takes it out on the son. Del replies : As I said in a previous post, this is unfortunately a very common thing. People do that all the time, all over the world. It's not nice, it's not fair, but it's very human. And since I've been taught not to judge real-life people when they do that, I won't judge Snape either. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I also must agree with Darrin when he points out that Snape is the > adult. As a teacher, there have been times when I would have loved > nothing more than to let a student have it, but I don't. I can't. > There are students I don't like very much, but I give them the > grades they earn (no one says I'm unfair at my school). In fact, > students think I have no favorites (I've heard them say it), but I > do. Why can't Snape do that? Del replies : Because he wasn't trained the way you were. In fact, he wasn't trained at all. You live in a society that has immense expectations of its teachers, and that trains and monitors them accordingly. Snape lives in a society where pretty much anyone can be a teacher. All that is required of them is that they know more or less what they are talking about, and as far as this is concerned, Snape fits the bill perfectly. Other than that, and especially concerning teaching methods, there doesn't seem to be any guidelines of any sorts. Snape seems to have good OWLs results and that seems to be enough for everyone. I mean, let's be honest : the way Snape treats Harry bothers *us*, but we've never seen that it bothers any adult in the WW. After all, Hogwarts is a school where students keep hexing each other, where teachers can confront the students to dangerous beasts and curses, where various monsters can roam around, and so on. It's most definitely nowhere close to one of our schools, so we must not expect the teachers to be the same either. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > Well, in a way Snape was right. James *was* pretty awful there, but > he was also a kid behaving like one (certainly one I'd stay away > from, but a kid nonetheless). Snape was no innocent victim either. > I can't blame Harry for not believing Snape; it is clear Snape has > personal issues with James and isn't too objective there. Harry > needed to learn on his own that his father was a real person with > real faults, not through someone else's words. We also know that > James changed, or Lily wouldn't have given him a chance. Del replies : I completely agree. I was just pointing out that Harry had some kind of relationship with the memory of his father, which didn't help in his relationship with Snape. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I love that he realized Cho was not the girl for him, not because he > found her annoying, or petty, or superficial, but because she > defended someone who should not have been defended. She made > excuses in a situation that caused a hell of a lot of problems and > Harry couldn't tolerate that. Del replies : We're different all right :-) I personally supported Cho on that one : the girl showed loyalty to her friend. Yes, Marrietta made a huge mistake, but I don't think she truly realised what was at stake. She had been dragged into something that she didn't understand. And we don't know what means Umbridge used to get the truth out of her. So when Cho tried to explain to Harry that Marrietta was a good person who'd made a mistake and Harry refused to see her point, I was mad at Harry, not Cho. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I love Harry for standing up to Umbridge, even though he knew he'd > get in trouble. I love that he chose punishment over keeping his > mouth shut and simply going along. Del replies : I understand that he would do it once. But once he saw the consequences, I found it completely stupid to keep provoking Umbridge. I'm not such a coward, but I can recognise when it's useless and fruitless to fight. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I love him for teaching DADA to his peers and taking such risks to > do so. Del replies : I actually love Hermione for putting this up and supporting Harry through it all. I'm glad Harry could use his experience to train other kids, but I don't see what's so admirable about it. It brought benefits to everyone involved, and everyone took risks. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I can see why some people don't like Harry and that's fine. It's > good even, because then I can have Harry all to myself. :-) Del replies : Exactly :-) !! Del From lliannanshe at comcast.net Mon Jun 14 20:11:24 2004 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:11:24 -0000 Subject: How do owls get their names? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101245 > JKR is fond of using historically real names for certain characters. > I'm wondering if the person in Harry's textbook after whom Hedwig is > named is a real life witch (like Grindelwald...) There is a St > Hedwig and a Hedwig village. > "celare_ulace" > > Lady Macbeth: > The most famous reference for Hedwig, and possibly the one Jo was thinking > of when she named the owl, was St. Hedwig. > > http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainth03.htm > > An interesting quote from the biography section of that page caught my > attention: "She allowed no one who came to her for help to go away > uncomforted." How many times has Hedwig comforted Harry in the books? > > It may also be relevant to note that she married Prince Henry I of > Silesia - and, as anyone who knows the royal family of today (or is good > with English names) knows, "Harry" is a medieval English form of "Henry". > (Prince Harry's full name is actually Prince Henry Charles Albert David.) > > -Lady Macbeth The sisters of St. Hedwig (The order named after the above mentioned St. Hedwig) are known for their education of orphaned and abandoned children. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07189a.htm Lliannanshe From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 14 20:13:02 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:13:02 -0000 Subject: Draco's Intent (was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > [Lee]: > I can sorta see Dar's point, Kneasy. Draco knew how the dementors affected > Harry; he'd seen the crash and tumble Harry took when the dementors had come > into the stadium. > > I'm sure he's not aware that Harry's learning Patronus; the practical joke, > if you will, was designed to do, at least, serious injury, which could have > possibly resulted in Harry's demise. Fortunately, Harry did manage a > whopping Patronus which exposed the pranksters and the pranksters were > reprimanded and punished. > > Okay, let's say that Harry hadn't learned the Patronus; Draco and company > did their dementor thing and Harry fell, and let's say that staff, referee, > etc. couldn't act fast enough... But, fortunately, that didn't happen, and > so we have more HP books. > Ah, but would a couple of teenagers dressed in a sheet believe that they would have the same mental effect on Harry as a real Dementor? Unlikely. So far as I can see, they know Harry passed out in the Express in the presence of a Dementor, but do not necessarily appreciate just how much more intensely Harry was affected by, let's call it the creatures mental field. I've always read this passage as an attempt at distracting Harry, maybe even hoping he'd fly away from the Quidditch grounds. Then would come the jeering - "Yah! Frightened of a piece of cloth!" But it backfired, it wasn't the sight of a Dementor that affected Harry, it was the mental effects. And since there weren't any mental effects it couldn't work. Kneasy From nansense at cts.com Mon Jun 14 20:16:51 2004 From: nansense at cts.com (nansense at cts.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults Message-ID: <200406142016.i5EKGpJ59603@joker.cts.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101247 Hi Kelley, This may sound dense, but I haven't noticed much acrimony. Yesterday i was perusing the Six Feet Under discussion board where every other word was cunt and shit and i thought...these people need a helping of HP etiquette. perhaps if you provided some examples i would know what you're referring to. thanks for your continued concern and management. madeyemood (auror/ophthalmologist) Kelley writes: >Hello, everyone. > >>From the HBF: >"We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." > >Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; >debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions >are the reasons for this group's existence. As adults, we expect >everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and >we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another >without being snide or insulting. > >Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the >argument. Do not attack or insult other list members. If you find >yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read your response >later and find a way to make your point without attacking others. >Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull offending threads. > > >--Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 20:22:19 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:22:19 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > > > > Alla previously: > > > > Well, let's see. They knew about Harry's reaction to Dementors. > They > > dressed up as Dementors. > > > > Are you saying that they did not know that Harry may fall off the > > broom? > > > > > > Ally: > > But Alla, you've argued previously that Sirius didn't commit > attempted murder when he sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack, didn't > you (I honestly don't remember exactly, but it seems like that was > your point in that discussion - correct me if I'm wrong)? If so, why > is this attempted murder and Sirius' actions were not? Alla: Hi! Actually, I argued that we don't know whether Sirius committed attempted murder or not. We don't know all circumstances surrounding the Shrieking Shack event. We don't know how much "bad blood" was between Snape's and Sirius/or James families which could have made Sirius actions understandable OR NOT. On the other hand, I know all I need to know (at least for now I am sure of it :o)) about Draco/Harry relationship and see no mitigating circumstances for what they did. Alla From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 14 20:25:07 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:25:07 -0400 Subject: The Hat Test (was Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry )) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101249 | From: dumbledore11214 | Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 15:24 PM | Alla: | | Dawn, thank you. That is exactly what I meant. Even though Rowling | calls Hat "sincere". I am not sure at all that it wanted to put Harry | in Slytherin. Probably Hat was testing him in its own bizarre way. :) [Lee]: I'd think so. Yes, Hat is sincere, but also serves to evaluate the students coming through and, perhaps, if necessary, give them a bit of a prod. Of course, this isn't the first time Harry has been given the "Great" word. Ollivander--"...we can expect great things from you..." (SS/PS). Now the hat is telling him he could be great, too. Another character analysis thing...here's Harry, who thinks of himself as a no-account in that he has no parents, was dumped on his Aunt and Uncle and has to live in a closet and be subject to the whims of his bully cousin. He's a polite lad...I'm sure manners were drilled into him. Now, suddenly, he's hearing things like he's famous, expected to do great things, could be great, etc. Overwhelming, to say the least, and factored in with a kind of people and place that goes beyond his imaginings...Wow! Perhaps Hat was trying to determine how all this would affect Harry. Would he, used to being considered on the lowest of the totem, gravitate to such an aspiration? Or would Harry allow himself to learn the different kinds of greatness and make his choices. Remember, too, all the times Hagrid says, "Great man, Dumbledore." There isn't a book where he doesn't say that! :-) So, Harry can see Dumbledore-type-Great...powerful yet great in compassion and understanding, etc. or Ambitious-Slytherin-Type-Great...a great that can be ruthless and harsh. Hat is testing Harry; Hat is giving Harry his first choice to make. Hat goes on to needle Harry in COS about him going to Slytherin; Harry flatly rejects the idea and puts Hat back on Dumbledore's shelf. Then, in COS, what comes to Harry's aid along with Fawks? Our friendly Hat...which gives him the Gryffindor Sword. So, methinks Hat is sincere, but it's also doing its part as a guardian and giving whatever testing is necessary to prove a student's true nature...or disprove it. Another thought...Does Dd ever have private conferences with Hat? :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jun 14 20:32:31 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:32:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: <200406142016.i5EKGpJ59603@joker.cts.com> References: <200406142016.i5EKGpJ59603@joker.cts.com> Message-ID: <40CE0B5F.3040304@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101250 nansense at cts.com wrote: > Hi Kelley, > This may sound dense, but I haven't noticed much acrimony. Yesterday i was > perusing the Six Feet Under discussion board where every other word was cunt > and shit and i thought...these people need a helping of HP etiquette. > perhaps if you provided some examples i would know what you're referring > to. > Was that vulgarity necessary?!?! Jem From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 20:38:12 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:38:12 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: <20040614165653.94207.qmail@web50806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Jarrett wrote: > Hi Kelley elf, > > I hope I'm directing this comment to the right > place--please let me know if I'm not. The debates > which I'm assuming you are referring to have been > bothering me for additional reasons. It seems that at > least half the threads on the list end up being an > ethics discussion rather than a discussion of the > Harry Potter books. People seem to be using the > characters and themes in Harry Potter just as a > starting point for ethics discussions and very little > of these discussions has much to do with the books. > It feels very off-topic to me but maybe I'm wrong. If > there are people who really enjoy this type of > discussion maybe they could have it on another list? > Just a suggestion... > > Thanks. > > Jenjar Carolyn: I must (respectfully, of course) disagree. I have really enjoyed the Snape/Harry debate, and although people shouldn't start slinging personal insults, the reason people get so heated is precisely because the Potter books pose ambiguities about all sorts of issues that matter. That's what this list is for, and why so many adults idle away their time reading it. IMO it only becomes OT when there is no reference to canon to support an argument - and that certainly hasn't been the case in this series of posts! From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 20:40:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:40:42 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101252 > > Kneasy: > > Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? > > That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. > > > Alla: > > Well, let's see. They knew about Harry's reaction to Dementors. They dressed up as Dementors. > > Are you saying that they did not know that Harry may fall off the > broom? Pippin: Erm, isn't Draco, at thirteen, a little old to think that dressing up as a Dementor will give you Dementor powers? McGonagall called it a low, unworthy attempt to sabotage the Gryffindor Seeker. After all, Harry might have become distracted momentarily and missed the Snitch. But fall off his broom? Why would he? She docked the boys fifty points and gave them detentions--the same punishment Harry got for wandering around the halls after dark. I think she'd be a little more concerned if it was attempted murder. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 20:49:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:49:04 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > > Attempted murder? A couple of teenagers in a sheet? > > > That's attempted murder? That's a novel interpretation. > > > > > > Alla previously: > > > > Well, let's see. They knew about Harry's reaction to Dementors. > They dressed up as Dementors. > > > > Are you saying that they did not know that Harry may fall off the > > broom? > > Pippin: > Erm, isn't Draco, at thirteen, a little old to think that dressing up > as a Dementor will give you Dementor powers? McGonagall > called it a low, unworthy attempt to sabotage the Gryffindor > Seeker. After all, Harry might have become distracted > momentarily and missed the Snitch. But fall off his broom? Why > would he? She docked the boys fifty points and gave them > detentions--the same punishment Harry got for wandering > around the halls after dark. I think she'd be a little more > concerned if it was attempted murder. > > Pippin Alla: Yes, I agree that Draco should have known many things - like if you don't bow to Buckbeak, he will kick you and painfully, but he did not. :o) We don't know how much he knew about Dementors. But I think I will agree with you- calling it an attempted murder is a little harsh. How about we'll call it - attempt to seriously hurt Harry? I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that if you cause somebody to loose concentration while flying this person may fall off. Don't you think? :) Akka From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 14 20:54:54 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:54:54 -0400 Subject: Room Of Requirement (was What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101254 I wonder if the Room of Requirement (or the "Come-And-Go Room" which I'll shorten to the C&G Room) has it's rules/limitations, i.e. it can only provide inanimate objects...books, mats, mops, beds, chamber pots, etc. But, so far, never once has it produced a living thing/creature. Perhaps it has its magical restriction against this. Also, now that it's no longer a real secret (I'm assuming one or some of the "Inquisitorial Squad" must have seen it), will it move or disappear? Hmm... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 20:59:29 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:59:29 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > > Would just like to speak up on this topic, though it's probably already come > up.....Snape seems to enjoy treating Neville in a demeaning matter nearly as > much as he enjoys doing it to Harry. And Neville doesn't "ask" for it unless > you count being clumsy , forgetful and timid as intentional provocation. > > Could there be, to Snape's thinking, some kind of relationship between Harry > and Neville that warrants, in Snape's mind, such treatment to both? Could > both Harry and Neville's reference in the Prophecy have something to do with > this? > > Karen F IMO, it's because Snape has to keep up appearances in front of the children of the DEs (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle to name three). Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 21:04:01 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:04:01 -0000 Subject: Why Tom? (re: wizard genetics and long-lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > In COS, Diary Tom tells Harry that they are probably the only > Parseltongues to attend Hogwarts in the last 1000 years. As we know, > but Diary Tom didn't, Harry's ability to talk to snakes is not > innate, but was transferred to him at Godric's Hollow. So, if we take > Diary Tom's word for it, he is the only Parseltongue to attend > Hogwarts in the last 1000 years. Is the ability to speak > Parseltongue genetic? If so, that's one heck of a recessive gene- > and why would it be activated in a witch/muggle mating? It doesn't > appear to be possible to learn it, considering the many gifted > wizards who can't do it. > > We know Tom is the Heir because he can open the Chamber, but is it > anywhere directly said that his mother is descended from Salazar? I > thought it was in COS, but I can't find it. Who did Salazar have > this family with? Choosing Rowena or Helga would make Tom the Heir of > Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff as well, which seems unlikely, so can we > assume a child born during his wanderings post-Hogwarts. Perhaps the > Parseltongue gene descended from Salazar through a very long line of > squibs, and was activated by Tom Snr's marriage to a witch. That's a > nice thought. > > Or could Parseltongue have been a gift of VaporMort? I like this one, > but Harry needed Parseltongue to access the chamber, so I assume the > same would have applied to Tom. > > Am I missing something here? > > Leah I think this has to do with whatever (and I don't know what this is) makes Tom Riddle the /heir/ versus /descendant/ of Slytherin. I think his ability to open the chamber, not the act of his opening it, makes him the heir. Why him? I asked the same in an earilier post, and I personally do not think we will know the answer until the end of the septology. Julie From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 14 21:03:52 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:03:52 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: <004401c45212$37cbab40$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christina in GA" wrote: > > Christina: What about when he purposely broke Harry's potion vial in OotP > and gave him a 0? That was done deliberately. Snape is not my favorite > teacher and I admit there is something more we need to learn about him. We > just broke the surface in OotP. But after so many years of unfair behavior - > punishing Harry & other Gryffindors when Draco picks on them, breaking his > potions vial, making those scathing comments (which do hurt a person, BTW), > well I wouldn't trust him much either. > Yes, Snape gave Harry a zero, but the only effect it had was to confirm Harry's opinions of Snape. Which, I believe was the whole point of doing it in the first place. Snape has asked, demanded that Harry be expelled on more than one occasion. He'd be more surprised than anyone if DD agreed. He must know how critical Harry is to DD's plans, so he knows that DD wants Harry right where he is. That being so it gives Snape free rein for his favourite indoor sport - baiting Harry. It's probably the only fun he gets. Except for the Occlumency cock-up (a special case) there have been no academic repercussions from any of his low marks, points from Gryffindor or caustic comments. It's very odd; even Neville who is even more inept than Harry in Potions never fails exams. Nobody ever fails anything. Surely by the law of averages there must be some duds in the year, but apparently not. I've suggested before that Snape is playing a part, or maybe exaggerating his feelings. It wouldn't do for Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle et al to send an owl home saying Snape was soft on Potter. It might compromise his secret missions (whatever they are) if he were suspected of back-sliding from the Slytherin ideal. Harry truly hating Snape is a bonus so far as Snape is concerned. It adds to his cover, gives him an excuse to sneak round and keep a close watchful eye on Harry. Snape isn't nice but he seems to be DD's right-hand man in the Order. Trying to keep Harry out of trouble could be one of the chores given to him by DD, one he'd relish - more opportunities to annoy Potter! The hurt you mention is deliberately placed there by JKR; she's admitted as much. In one interview she tells of a mother who wrote to her saying that she didn't like her children reading such things. JKR responded saying that in that case they'd better not read any more of the books, because Harry was going to continue to suffer. There must be a reason for all this hurt you dislike; unless of course JKR has sadistic tendencies and enjoys putting Harry through the mill. Kneasy From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 14 21:08:00 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:08:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape & Harry References: Message-ID: <007f01c45253$ad18e6b0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 101258 > > >[Kneasy]:Snape *punishes* Harry? Some scathing comments, usually, > > >>(though not always) when Harry has done something >particularly > brainless, > > or marks docked; marks, by the way that >don't matter. How many > exams has > > Harry failed? Zero. > > > > Christina: What about when he purposely broke Harry's potion vial > in OotP > > and gave him a 0? That was done deliberately. Snape is not my > favorite > > teacher and I admit there is something more we need to learn about > him. We > > just broke the surface in OotP. But after so many years of unfair > behavior - > > punishing Harry & other Gryffindors when Draco picks on them, > breaking his > > potions vial, making those scathing comments (which do hurt a > person, BTW), > > well I wouldn't trust him much either. > > K I'm going to have to agree with Kneasy here (and bearing in mind my usual reaction to Kneasy's posts I'm saying that through gritted teeth ). As he said Snape has docked marks that don't count but Harry always seem to pass his end of year exams and seems to have passed his Potions exam. Snape has never failed him when it counts (in fact I think that Snape probably hates failing people, because he takes it as a failure on his part if he can't pound at least a basic knowledge of Potions into the little darlings heads). If I were in his class I might not like him much but I would trust him to mark fairly when it counts (from the sounds of it he gave Hermione, who he treats like an annoying know-it-all, not entirely unfairly I have to say, better marks in his end of year exams than he gives to Draco even though he probably has good reason to suck up to Malfoy and even if he doesn't would no doubt infinitely prefer a Slytherin to top his class than any Gryffindor, let alone one of Harry's friends) Susan > __ > BTW, there's also a part in CoS that says, without any explanation > whatsoever, "Harry had been held back in Potions, where Snape had > made him stay behind to scrape tubeworms off the desks" (9:146). > Doesn't say anything about why Harry had to do it, and it clearly > says desks, not just Harry's desk because he spilled tubeworms or > something. > K I don't think anyone was trying to argue that he was fair in the way he treats Harry just that a) he's never caused him to fail a year and b) really in the scale of things Snape's behaviour's not *that* bad. Detentions (can't be *that*many or Harry'd never fit in all his extra-curricular gallivanting), sarcastic/mean comments and a few failed assignments (assignments which seem to exist only to show the teachers how well people are doing - and I have no doubt Snape knows exactly where Harry is in his class even when he does give him no marks). If I'd tried complaining about a teacher treating me like that when I was at school I'd have been told to grow up and stop acting like a baby - not to mention the ever cheering, 'It's not fair? Tough. Life isn't' and I'd certainly never have dared treat a teacher (even one I hated, and I had some I hated for pretty similar reasons to Harry's reasons for hating Snape) with the utter lack of respect Harry has towards Snape. As I argued earlier - Snape is in a position of authority and whether or not he personally has earned Harry's respect, Harry is a student and should be respectful towards all his teachers. K From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 21:06:34 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:06:34 -0000 Subject: Green Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101259 Susan wrote: Now, to all the posters wondering why Harry only sees/remembers seeing one bright green light. Hmmm. Lots of spells were being cast in CoS which left the room cast in a greenish smoke. Could it be that LV at GH did indeed do the AK 3x, the result of which cast a green light, and maybe the light was so bright this time _because_ the AK that hit Harry backfired? Jason responded: I like the greenish smoke idea. But I would bet that there were far more than 3 spells cast. When James (or whoever else was there if you dont believe it was James) said "You go, ill hold him off!," that he didnt just stand in the path of Voldy. I imagine he dueled with him for several minutes. Harry did in the graveyard, so why couldnt James? A few shield charms or something? vmonte now: What if Harry time-travels to the past, to GH, and is followed there by Voldemort2. They both burst into the GH scene and surprise Voldemort1. What kind of damage could 3 wands with phoenix cores do? Especially if 2 of the wands are the same feather? Voldemort2 rushes in and is spotted by Voldemort1 who refuses to believe that this grotesque creature is himself. V1 raises his wand to kill V2. V2 also raises his wand...and there's a massive explosion. They both kill each other. Hermione's comments about wizards who mess with time and kill their past or future selves becomes a reality... vivian - just having fun From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 21:12:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:12:43 -0000 Subject: Theo Nott--Where? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: Lee : > > Where is Theodore Nott introduced? Is it in OOTP or one of Lady > Rowling's > > notes? Lliannanshe: > Theodore Nott's name was first mentioned in OOP chapter 24, 25 or 26 > there about. (I can't remember the name of the chapter) The very > first mention of Nott is SS "The Sorting Hat" just mentions he was > sorted but doesn't tell us which house. > Pleased to help Geoff: The full canon references for the two instances mentioned are: 'There weren't many people left now. "Moon"... "Nott"... "Parkinson"... then a pair of twin girls, "Patil" and "Patil" then "Perks, Sally-Anne"... and then, at last - "Potter, Harry!"' (PS "The Sorting Hat" p.90 UK edition) Interestingly, as Lliannanshe remarked, Nott's connection with Slytherin isn't emphasised in PS. 'If anything more was needed to complete Harry's happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment: Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe.' (OOTP "Seen and Unforeseen" [Chapter 26] p.514 UK edition) Nott is not seen here as being malevolent in the same way as M,C & G, perhaps emphasising him as the "thinking man's Slytherin"! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 21:16:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:16:23 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: <007f01c45253$ad18e6b0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > K > > I don't think anyone was trying to argue that he was fair in the way he > treats Harry just that a) he's never caused him to fail a year and b) really > in the scale of things Snape's behaviour's not *that* bad. Well, Dumbledore could have interfered after PoA, as Harry thinks, although Harry could have been wrong, of course. I think failure of Occlumency shows the opposite. Yes, one could argued that on the grand scale of things his behaviour was not "that bad", but general mistrust and hate which Harry feels towards Snape because of how Snape treated him those five years led to that disaster. I think it shows that Snape methods were incredibly wrong. K: As I argued earlier - Snape is in a position of > authority and whether or not he personally has earned Harry's respect, Harry > is a student and should be respectful towards all his teachers. > > K Alla: I disagree. respect should be earned. Yes, even by someone, who is in position of authority. If he blatantly abuses such position, he should not be respected, IMO. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 21:17:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:17:01 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101262 > Alla: > We don't know how much [Draco] knew about Dementors. But I think I will agree with you- calling it an attempted murder is a little harsh. How about we'll call it - attempt to seriously hurt Harry? > > I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that if you cause > somebody to loose concentration while flying this person may >fall off. > > Don't you think? :) Er, no, I don't. This is Quidditch, for heaven sakes. Four balls, fourteen players and a ref, broomsticks accelerating at 0 to 150 mph in ten seconds, seven hundred something different kinds of fouls. Distractions are part of the game. Despite which, no one's ever been killed playing Quidditch at Hogwarts. I think the only way to fall off your broom is if somebody hexes it or you lose consciousness. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that Draco thought that the mere sight of someone in Dementor robes was going to cause Harry to faint in terror. :) Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 21:18:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:18:13 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > OK. Message received. (I assume I'm among the offenders edging over > the line.) > > Yellow flag probably justified (beats breast, cries Mea culpa - *very* > quietly). > Very sad in some ways; I *do* love what you might call a 'robust' > debate, but I realise some are a bit more sensitive about that sort of > thing. Geoff: Yes, but when a robust debate catches "tennis match syndrome" - i.e it descends into the "Oh yes it did/ Oh no it didn't" level of exchange repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, it wastes bandwidth, message numbers and erodes the patience of other readers who wade through the list looking for other posts of a more satisfyingly robust nature... :-) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 21:26:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:26:35 -0000 Subject: Was Draco trying to kill Harry? Was:What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > Er, no, I don't. This is Quidditch, for heaven sakes. Four balls, > fourteen players and a ref, broomsticks accelerating at 0 to 150 > mph in ten seconds, seven hundred something different kinds of > fouls. Distractions are part of the game. Despite which, no one's > ever been killed playing Quidditch at Hogwarts. > > I think the only way to fall off your broom is if somebody hexes it > or you lose consciousness. You're going to have a hard time > convincing me that Draco thought that the mere sight of > someone in Dementor robes was going to cause Harry to faint in > terror. :) > > Pippin Alla: Draco knew that Harry was terrified of the Dementors. I think it is reasonable to assume that he thought that Harry was terrified of mere sight of them . After all, we don't know how well he studied Dementors. Also, I would not say "mere sight of someone in Dementors Robes", but "sight of the dementors", because Harry did think that they were real Dementors. Alla From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 14 21:37:45 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:37:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape & Harry References: Message-ID: <00a001c45257$d51a9ce0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 101265 Alla > > I think failure of Occlumency shows the opposite. Yes, one could > argued that on the grand scale of things his behaviour was not "that > bad", but general mistrust and hate which Harry feels towards Snape > because of how Snape treated him those five years led to that > disaster. > > > I think it shows that Snape methods were incredibly wrong. > > K I don't think Harry would have learned no matter who was teaching him. He made it very clear he wasn't going to put any effort into it, and while he irritates me like mad sometimes and I would like to cite that as an example of him being a typically lazy teenage boy, I can't, because the reason he didn't learn is he didn't understand why they were teaching him. Harry was under the impression that what he was seeing was the truth and that it was inadvertantly sent by Voldemort and hence that receiving it could only lead to good things and that (this is more of an extrapolation than the rest) that the teachers (DD especially) were trying to protect him. If someone, *anyone* had actually explained *why* they were teaching him then he might have actually bothered. His lessons ended because Snape got fed up with him where another teacher might not have but he never learned anything while they were continuing because he refused to try. Harry is not the sort of child who will accept 'because I said so' as a reason to do anything and while I think that's a bit of a shame as in a war there isn't always time to explain *why* you're giving orders it's a little late now to start trying to treat him like that. Dumbledore told him the lessons were important, Lupin did, I think Sirius did, Hermione did (although admittedly she didn't know why either) and Snape did. He ignored *all* of them, not just Snape > K: > > As I argued earlier - Snape is in a position of > > authority and whether or not he personally has earned Harry's > respect, Harry > > is a student and should be respectful towards all his teachers. > > > > K > > Alla: > > I disagree. respect should be earned. Yes, even by someone, who is in > position of authority. If he blatantly abuses such position, he > should not be respected, IMO. > K I said Harry should treat him respectfully not that he should respect him. There is a difference - next time a policeman pulls you over for something you didn't do see how far being rude and disrespectful will get you with him. Dumbledore couldn't force Harry to respect Snape, but he could force him to treat him with respect. Do I think Harry being respectful would stop Snape hating him? no, but it *might* make him reconsider his view that Harry is the same arrogant little brat his father was and even if it didn't for me Harry's outbursts reflect far more on Harry than they do on Snape. Harry's being rude doesn't change the fact that Snape is unfair towards him but it does remove what little sympathy I have for him. There is no excuse for acting like an undisciplined, ill-mannered little brat any more than there is any excuse for Snape being mean. I love Snape despite his faults and, well I won't say I love Harry because he's a teenage boy and teenage boys are all pretty unloveable, but I do love the person I can see Harry becoming, despite his many faults. K K K From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 21:41:44 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:41:44 -0000 Subject: Room Of Requirement (was What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > I wonder if the Room of Requirement (or the "Come-And-Go Room" which I'll > shorten to the C&G Room) has it's rules/limitations, i.e. it can only > provide inanimate objects...books, mats, mops, beds, chamber pots, etc. > But, so far, never once has it produced a living thing/creature. Perhaps it > has its magical restriction against this. > > Also, now that it's no longer a real secret (I'm assuming one or some of the > "Inquisitorial Squad" must have seen it), will it move or disappear? Hmm... > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) > > Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm > I may not care to lead; | N2FGC > Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at o... (or) > I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at a... > Walk beside me, and be my friend. The way I took the room of Requirement was this. In order for it to appear, the person would have to have a need for it. Since there will no longer be a need for that particular room (Umbridge is gone) then it will disappear, until the next person needs something. Be it a broom closet to hide in, or a room full of chamber pots or even an elfish recovery room :P Jacqui From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 21:42:16 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:42:16 -0000 Subject: Was Draco trying to kill Harry? Was:What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: > > Draco knew that Harry was terrified of the Dementors. I think it is > reasonable to assume that he thought that Harry was terrified of mere > sight of them . After all, we don't know how well he studied > Dementors. > > > Also, I would not say "mere sight of someone in Dementors Robes", > but "sight of the dementors", because Harry did think that they were > real Dementors. Geoff: My take on this is that, already, Draco had attempted to make capital from the train incident and make Harry look small, to make him look weak , to get the opportunity to sneer at him and I believe this was another attempt to unsettle him to the extent that something happens - for example, Gryffindor lose the match because their Seeker is distracted. He obviously got the result he wanted but, I suspect not in the way he expected. Draco likes to look big, he likes to be the Godfather with his retinue of gormless heavies and likes to come out with these gangster type comments... "But I know one thing: last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's only a matter of time before one of them's killed this time... I hope it's Granger" (COS "The Polyjuice Potion" p.167 UK edition) 'Malfoy glanced around - Harry knew he was checking for signs of reachers - then he looked back at Harry and said in a low voice, "You're dead, Potter." (OOTP "The Second War Beins" p.749 UK edition) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jun 14 21:43:48 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:43:48 -0000 Subject: The Hat Test (was Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry )) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > Hat is testing Harry; Hat is giving Harry his first choice to make. Hat > goes on to needle Harry in COS about him going to Slytherin; Harry flatly > rejects the idea and puts Hat back on Dumbledore's shelf. > > Then, in COS, what comes to Harry's aid along with Fawks? Our friendly > Hat...which gives him the Gryffindor Sword. > > So, methinks Hat is sincere, but it's also doing its part as a guardian and > giving whatever testing is necessary to prove a student's true nature...or > disprove it. > I never thought that Harry going to Gryffindor was such a sure bet - it seems to me there was a decent chance he could have gone into Slytherin. Remember, Draco approaches him respectfully when they first arrive at Hogwarts; he doesn't realize that he's already shown his true colours by his snotty behaviour when talking to Harry in the robe shop in Diagon Alley. And it's just chance that Harry met Ron first, so that he was immunized against Draco's insults. What if things had been a little different? If he'd arrived a few minutes earlier at King's Cross, and sat in a different carriage, his first welcome into the wizarding world might have been by a group of Slytherins, who would have been honoured and flattered to count him as one of 'theirs'. Then Harry's response to the Hat would have been quite different - he started off as a bit of a blank slate, and I think could have gone in quite a different direction if circumstances had been just a bit different. Wanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 14 21:44:57 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:44:57 -0000 Subject: Was Draco trying to kill Harry? Was:What if other teachers behaved like Snap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101269 > Alla: > > Draco knew that Harry was terrified of the Dementors. I think it is reasonable to assume that he thought that Harry was terrified of mere sight of them . After all, we don't know how well he studied Dementors.< Pippin: He didn't have to study them. He encountered them on the train and he was so terrified he nearly wet himself, according to Fred and George. If what you say is true, Draco should have thought the sight of him would scare everybody in the stadium including his own side into fits. I don't think so. He was trying to distract Harry, I'll grant you that. But if you think that could have been fatal, what about "Weasley is our king"? Nobody seems to have thought that was particularly dangerous. It just distracted Ron and made him let the Quaffle in. Pippin From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 22:16:37 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (sweetface531 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:16:37 EDT Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: <1e9.22c845de.2dff7dc5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101270 Pippin: You're going to have a hard time convincing me that Draco thought that the mere sight of someone in Dementor robes was going to cause Harry to faint in terror. :) Justine responds: Actually, why the heck not? "Did you faint as well, Weasley?" said Malfoy loudly. "Did the scary old Dementor frighten you, too, Weasley?" (PoA, 69) Draco is unrelenting in making fun of Harry because he'd heard that Harry fainted. He believes it was because the Dementor "frightened" Harry; Malfoy has absolutely no way of knowing what a Dementor's presence does to Harry... no one really knows. Even those Harry tells don't really understand, because (as far as we know) they haven't experienced it on that harsh level, and Harry certainly hasn't spoken to Malfoy about his experience. Draco seems not to have had the same experience... when trying to collect bad memories of Malfoy, CoS the movie is all I can point to that says Lucius is a dominating father, but surely that can't be as horrible a memory as parents being murdered before one's eyes. Draco doesn't know exactly what was behind Harry's fainting spell, so he may have little reason to think seeing a "scary" Dementor won't cause Harry to faint once again. But, then again, of course, Malfoy can be an insensitive little git... perhaps the thought never occurred to him at all. It could merely have been an impulsive prank... Justine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 22:17:37 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:37 -0000 Subject: Weasleys OOP was Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > > > I've always imagined Peter knew the Weasleys or at least knew OF > > them, and he specifically chose them for his hiding place. The > > Weasleys at that time offered a refuge from the War--they lived in > > the country, were not members of the Order, and Arthur didn't have > > any real power at the MOM. And, most ironic, this was a Gryffindor > > family. It also doesn't appear Voldemort was targeting them in any > > way. > > > > Also, I'm not sure Sirius was right, that Pettigrew was merely > > waiting for the right moment to give Harry to LV. I think he was > > trying to save his own skin! > > > > Now that we know the Prewitt brothers were probably Molly's > > brothers, Wormtail's role in all this is even more disturbing. If > he > > was passing information to Voldemort for a year prior to the deaths > > of the Potters, did he also betray the Prewitt brothers? > > > > Jenni: > > I really wish I had thought to bring my book with me to work :P I > always thought that they WERE members of the Order. I guess I must > have missed something when I was reading. Ok, now that I am at home and have my book handy...this is what I have found in regards to the Weasleys being a part of the first Order. "Is anyone going to bother telling me what the Order of the Phoenix - ----?" "Its a secret society," said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against You-Know- Who last time." So, that would mean that the Weasleys WERE in the Order. Now having found that bit, Do we know if the Order was well known or was it a quiet society then? Jacqui From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 14 22:36:10 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:36:10 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: References: <004401c45212$37cbab40$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <40CEB4FA.18566.1210B9@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101272 > Christina: What about when he purposely broke Harry's potion vial > in OotP > and gave him a 0? That was done deliberately. A question I've had ever since I read it through the second time was if the mark was an 0 or an O - was it a zero or an Outstanding? I assume Snape pays attention to what is going on his class, so could often work out what mark something got even if it never reached him for marking. I can't find the text at the moment, but I seem to recall it saying something like 'the mark looked suspiciously like a zero'. I can see Snape as the type that could quite easily give Harry a good mark if it was deserved because he *has* to - but at the same time taking great delight in letting Harry think he's failed. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 22:39:52 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:39:52 -0000 Subject: Weasleys OOP was Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101273 > > Jenni wrote: > > > > I really wish I had thought to bring my book with me to work :P I > > always thought that they WERE members of the Order. I guess I > must > > have missed something when I was reading. > > > Ok, now that I am at home and have my book handy...this is what I > have found in regards to the Weasleys being a part of the first > Order. > "Is anyone going to bother telling me what the Order of the Phoenix - > ----?" > "Its a secret society," said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's in > charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against You-Know- > Who last time." > So, that would mean that the Weasleys WERE in the Order. Now having > found that bit, Do we know if the Order was well known or was it a > quiet society then? > > Jacqui Snow replies: Actually the Weasley's werent in the Order the first time. OOP The Woes of Mrs. Weasley pg. 177 Lupin says "... I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you dont understand..." From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jun 14 22:46:55 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:46:55 -0000 Subject: JKR sadistic? (Was:Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > The hurt you mention is deliberately placed there by JKR; she's admitted as > much. In one interview she tells of a mother who wrote to her saying that > she didn't like her children reading such things. JKR responded saying that > in that case they'd better not read any more of the books, because Harry > was going to continue to suffer. There must be a reason for all this hurt > you dislike; unless of course JKR has sadistic tendencies and enjoys putting > Harry through the mill. > I wonder about that myself, though not when it comes to Harry. I think she's got his arc well worked-out. But I think I detect a bit of score-settling in her treatment of other characters, in particular, the Marauders. It's occurred to me that what happens to James & Co. is pretty much every unpopular kid's fantasy: Handsome Sirius ends up in jail; Athletic James is forced into hiding and then hunted down; of the lesser lights, Pettigrew turns out to be a quisling and spends years trapped in a rat's body, and then escapes and survives as a miserable Voldemort toady, and Lupin lives on, shunned and isolated, hiding an ugly secret. Even lovely Lily, the most popular girl in school, ends up on the dustheap. Was Rowling an ugly duckling or an outsider at school? Because this is just the sort of consoling revenge-fantasy such a kid would think of. The top dogs end up losing everything - it's the classic turn of Fortune's Wheel, or the first being last. Wanda From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Mon Jun 14 00:07:17 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:07:17 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing character - OOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101275 On 14/06/2004, at 4:36 AM, veiledmyst wrote: > the missing Evil Temptress you highlighted would fit in rather > nicely with the publisher's promise that "there will be a new > DADA teacher (female) with a personality like poisoned honey". Umbrage anyone? Bill -- Bill Cooney Original Music for Film, Television, Theatre and Multimedia From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 17:58:52 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:58:52 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101276 Darrin wrote: > Yeah, I got this one wrong. I was sure that I'd remembered D-Dore > glancing at Snape before he did it, but I rechecked canon. I was > wrong about D-Dore's orders. > > But it is not exactly a secret that Snape was a DE. It was said in > open court. Rita Skeeter was there. Fudge should have known. Should have known, perhaps, but from his dyspeptic reaction, obviously was taken aback. And it didn't deter Snape that Harry was standing there, did it? Didn't stop to think, "That little bugger's going to make my life living hell now," did he? Just went ahead & did what he HAD to do. Ava From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 22:55:20 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:55:20 -0000 Subject: Weasleys OOP was Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101277 I really wish I had thought to bring my book with me to work :P > I > > > always thought that they WERE members of the Order. I guess I > > must > > > have missed something when I was reading. > > > > > > Ok, now that I am at home and have my book handy...this is what I > > have found in regards to the Weasleys being a part of the first > > Order. > > "Is anyone going to bother telling me what the Order of the > Phoenix - > > ----?" > > "Its a secret society," said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's in > > charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against You- Know- > > Who last time." > > So, that would mean that the Weasleys WERE in the Order. Now > having > > found that bit, Do we know if the Order was well known or was it a > > quiet society then? > > > > Jacqui > > Snow replies: > > Actually the Weasley's werent in the Order the first time. OOP The > Woes of Mrs. Weasley pg. 177 Lupin says "... I can't promise no one's > going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off > than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you dont > understand..." Ah well then I guess I stand corrected. Thank you for clearing that up. :P That sentence above about the Order being people who were in it last time, is very misleading. :P From Ladycat16 at aol.com Mon Jun 14 19:09:58 2004 From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:09:58 -0400 Subject: a thought about career's advice Message-ID: <54E5B0B5.4D3244FB.02576AF9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101278 Lee wrote: >> If we look at Hogwarts and compare it to a regular school system, at least the one in the US that I'm familiar with, career counseling didn't come until one's junior year of high school. So, even though we had electives we could take when starting HS or in the middle of HS, the career thing and college thing didn't start to rear its ugly head until junior year. So, not seeing career advice until Harry's fifth year doesn't seem at all unusual. << Ladycat16 says: (me) I agree with you in the fact that if we compared it to American HighSchool we wouldn't get the career planning untill then. I look at Hogwarts as more of a Prep School or in America for a better term a vocational school. It seems like in the WW, if there are colleges they are based more so on certain types of schools, (i.e. School of Business, School of Law). If looking at the career pamplets I see that they have to have taken a certain type of class and certain level, (i.e. CoMC, for 3 years) in order to go into that type of field. IMHO, I view Hogwarts as more of a college idea, in that sence. I would have thought they should have had some help in the area when the childern are aloud to pick their own electives. I mean they might have but it wasn't prominant help, or at least not of what I saw, other then relatives. I think it would have been a nice idea to have a small pamphlet given to each student of that year with a list of common jobs and the type of classes needed. That way muggle borns would have an idea of what types of jobs there were. If I recall correctly, Harry didn't know of the different types of job in CoS or in OoTP. Maybe I am wrong. Tiffany From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 19:33:11 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:33:11 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101279 Cristelle: > > If Snape tried something really horrible, why Sirius didn't > > tell? Alla: > Sirius was not exactly in the right state of mind to go > into deep discussions about Snape. Ava: Hmm. I repeat the quote previously cited by Cristelle: Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." I guess Sirius was in the right state of mind to act like he's still 15, though. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jun 14 21:25:59 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:25:59 -0400 Subject: The Hat Test (was Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry )) References: Message-ID: <014b01c45256$3032d7c0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101280 Oh, I'm sure that Dumbledore and Hat have conversations. At least a couple of times in O.o.t.p. you see evidence of conversations between Dumbledore and the portraits, and my hunch is that Hat is right in there. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From tred2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 22:57:29 2004 From: tred2 at yahoo.com (nadjjaa) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040614225729.30797.qmail@web40102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101281 Love this list, have been lurking for two weeks, cannot keep mouth shut: >> Paul: Hello friends. Some thoughts: 1) If Dudley were a wizard he would be able to see the Dementors. Instead he run directly to one of them. A most potent candidate to become full active wizard is Hagrid. 2) Dursleys to admit Harry is not a loser. I think that this would happen if LV proved a misunderstood person that had the best interest of the Wizard World in his mind. 3) Attack in privet street. A massive blow against the whole suburb with DE attacking everyone. It will be a very interesting start for the book 6. As for the casualties only God and JKR knows. << I don't think Dudley saw the dementors. If he did, he probably wouldn't have run straight into one. About doing magic late, I honestly think it will be Petunia. Don't know why, I just think she's going to be the one to turn the Dursley family around. Either Vernon will drop dead of a massive heart attack, leave her (unlikely, who would cook?) or accept the truth. I predict that Harry will save the Dursley family from an attack from the dark forces, whatever form they may take. Number four will be reduced to rubble in the beginning of the book and Vernon will blame Harry (even if he did save their miserable lives), by the end of the book the dursleys will be thanking him. Maybe. Maybe not. Sirius can't be really DEAD. That just makes ZERO sense. nadjjaa (HI) *** ~~ *** ~~~ *** "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" ~ J.R.R. Tolkien "Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run away! Death really hates that!" ~ Matt Frewer "In real life, I assure you, there is no such thing as algebra." ~ Fran Lebowitz From siskiou at vcem.com Mon Jun 14 23:04:50 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:04:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR sadistic? (Was:Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10410556901.20040614160450@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101282 Hi, Monday, June 14, 2004, 3:46:55 PM, Wanda wrote: > Was Rowling > an ugly duckling or an outsider at school? Because this is just the > sort of consoling revenge-fantasy such a kid would think of. She's always said she was quite a lot like Hermione as a kid(not as brilliant, but as annoying), so I could see her having had some "popularity" problems at school. But I thought she was living that part out more through Hermione's character. Though I do remember her also saying that she was in parts like all three of the kids, with Hermione being most like her, but exaggerated. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 14 23:11:47 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:11:47 -0000 Subject: Weasleys OOP was Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > I really wish I had thought to bring my book with me to work :P > > I > > > > always thought that they WERE members of the Order. I guess I > > > must > > > > have missed something when I was reading. > > > > > > > > > Ok, now that I am at home and have my book handy...this is what > I > > > have found in regards to the Weasleys being a part of the first > > > Order. > > > "Is anyone going to bother telling me what the Order of the > > Phoenix - > > > ----?" > > > "Its a secret society," said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's in > > > charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against You- > Know- > > > Who last time." > > > So, that would mean that the Weasleys WERE in the Order. Now > > having > > > found that bit, Do we know if the Order was well known or was it > a > > > quiet society then? > > > > > > Jacqui > > > > Snow replies: > > > > Actually the Weasley's werent in the Order the first time. OOP The > > Woes of Mrs. Weasley pg. 177 Lupin says "... I can't promise no > one's > > going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better > off > > than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you dont > > understand..." > > Ah well then I guess I stand corrected. Thank you for clearing that > up. :P That sentence above about the Order being people who were > in it last time, is very misleading. :P Snow again: You're welcome! I actually set out in search of something I thought would back up your statement and was hit over the head with what I had found. I remembered something being said by Lupin hear but I thought he said it wasn't like last time when "we" were in the Order. In the end I guess we were both wrong. :) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 14 23:55:06 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:55:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: <2CB126D7.5E4E1D75.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101284 Naama: > Severus does wrong, therefore he needs psychiatric help; Harry does > wrong, and he is therefore to blame. This, you say, because Severus > has had a difficult emotional past. Hmmm. And Harry, of course, has > had a loving, warm and cuddly childhood, so he should know > better?! > Have to love your logic here. Oryomai: Perhaps I didn't make my logic clear...I do that alot on computers *g*! Severus is still stuck on grudges that he should have let go of years ago -- he should have grown up already. He hasn't, therefore he needs help. Harry, on the other hand, needs to grow up still. If, in 20 some years, he's stil nursing old grudges, then I'll call for therapy for him as well. Oryomai --*innocent whistle* They're both adults... *innocent whistle resumes* From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 00:05:52 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:05:52 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava" wrote: >> Alla: > > Sirius was not exactly in the right state of mind to go > > into deep discussions about Snape. > > > Ava:> > Hmm. I repeat the quote previously cited by Cristelle:> > Black made a derisive noise. > "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find > out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." > I guess Sirius was in the right state of mind to act like he's still > 15, though. Mel: Fifteen? More like nine! I bet he even stuck out his tongue and made a face. Mel, who knows that was Snape's fault too From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 15 00:06:16 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:06:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's the adult (was: Who's to blame for occlumency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101286 | From: potioncat | Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:30 AM | | > > Pippin wrote: | > > No! No!!! ESE!Lupin killed Cedric *personally* using Voldemort's | > > wand and Wormtail's alias! Hey, we've got two Barties and two | > > Tom Riddles, we can have two Wormtails, right? | > | > > Alla wrote: | > > Oh, G-d , Pippin, for some reason that line had me in hysterics. | Of | > > course we can have two Wormtails. You know, special - buy one | > > Wormtail, get another one free. :o) | > | > > Neri wrote: | > > Good idea. We can also have two Siriuses. This way we can have | one | > > ESE!Sirius who got killed (by ESE!Lupin, naturally) and one good | > > Sirius who is alive. That should satisfy everybody. | > | > | > Mandy here: | > Get thee gone to fandom! The lot of you! ;-) | | Potioncat: | This of course gives us two Snapes: The Snape some hate to love and | the Snape others love to hate. (But does that give us two twins or | four?) [Lee]: It depends on which way you're looking. So, if we're serious about 2 Sirius's, and two Snapes can make the debates more snappy, and we get two Wormtails for the price of one, guess we just have to hope that if those two Wormtails get together we don't have a Pig's Tail. And now, I shall go play in the Pun-kin patch. :-) Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 00:12:25 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:12:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light References: Message-ID: <004701c4526d$7087fe10$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 101287 > Gina : You are right. I was thinking LV said it. Oh well I tried. Sarah (me): But wait! You are right, Harry got it from Voldemort's speech a few paragraphs earlier: '"And now you face me, like a man . . . straight-backed and proud, the way your father died. . . . "And now - we duel."' Sarah From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 00:17:03 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:17:03 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: "darrin_burnett" wrote:> > > But it is not exactly a secret that Snape was a DE. It was said in > open court. Rita Skeeter was there. Fudge should have known. Pippin: > It is a secret. Sirius does not know, in GoF, that Snape was a DE. > In fact, he can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire > him if that were the case. (chapter 27, GoF) Mel: Which is really something when you realize he's been incarcerated AS a DE, *with* DEs for TWELVE YEARS. Now that's just odd. He's heard NOTHING about Snape? Not even how that weasel slipped out of facing his charges...or how that snake pulled the wool over everyone's eyes...? Nothing? Either it's a BIG DARK SECRET all wrapped up in some magical-wizarding bow or Sirius Black is really, really dumb. Pippin: > Rita Skeeter was not present at Karkaroff's trial AFAWK. She was > at Bagman's. Mel: Now *there's* a nasty piece of work for you. Pippin: > It is curious that Sirius believes that Karkaroff was able to betray > a number of Death Eaters "he put a load of other people into > Azkaban in his place" (GoF ch 19) when from what we see in the > Pensieve, Karkaroff actually betrayed only Rookwood. The other > people he tried to give away had already been discovered...and > by whom? Mel: Ah ha.... Pippin: > One of Dumbledore's useful spies, I suppose. My theory is > Snape's cover is intact because Karkaroff was blamed for all his > betrayals. Mel: My theory as to why Snape's cover is intact is because his public 'outing' actually bought him credibility in both camps. The DE's all think he managed to pull the wool over Dumbledore's eyes and the Ministry takes Dumbledore at his word. Of course getting to blame Karkaroff for anyone Snape turned over is icing on the cake, innit? Melpomene From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 01:26:46 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:26:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin Ideology, in context Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101289 "Eric Oppen" said: >I know that we mostly believe that the "Slytherin" dislike of "m*dbloods" >and contempt for Muggles is a Bad Thing. However, I would like to try to >put this sort of attitude into the context of the Wizarding World. > >I think, myself, that the prejudice against muggle-born magical folk could >easily be explained by the real danger of having to deal with people whose >inner values are _different._ I didn't think it had anything to do with values. I think that the attitude of some wizards toward Muggles and Muggle-borns is based on the same thing as the attitude of some wizards toward werewolves -- which is to say, it's an overreaction to an actual danger, *but* the danger is not a fiction, it actually existed. At some points in history when wizards and muggles coexisted, muggles were a danger to wizards due to superstition, hostility, religious persecution, etc. There were undoubtedly wizards who were not so fortunate as Wendelin the Weird, who faked her own burning several times. This was one of the main reasons for the separation and concealment of the wizarding world. And many people in the hidden wizarding world did not want or trust Muggle-born wizards because they were an obvious "security risk." (One wonders how the children managed to adjust who were brought to Hogwarts from households or cultures which believed in wizards and were actively hostile to them -- the Dursleys of the past, as it were.) Nowadays, the wizarding world is thoroughly hidden and between that and the existence of Memory Charms, they are pretty safe from being discovered and endangered. Muggle-born wizards are even less of a danger than they were before. But unfortunately old habits and attitudes are hard to discard, especially in people with long lifespans. >House-elves are not >humans. Neither, for that matter, are giants, and if Hagrid's a normal >half-giant, his lack of common sense and tropism for dangerous creatures >makes suspicion of half-giants not terribly difficult to understand. I am not convinced that we know all there is to know about the house-elf situation -- and it is of course all too clear (except to her) that Hermione doesn't either. I think however that there's a simple explanation for Hagrid's interest in dangerous creatures -- and possibly an unfortunate background story. Hagrid, at his present age, mostly knows his own strength. He may lean on Hermione a little too hard or slap Ron on the back and knock him into his soup, but he hasn't been known to hurt anyone until the night Umbridge's goon squad tried to ambush him. (The only other time he even lost his temper enough to get physical with someone was when Karkaroff insulted Dumbledore, and Dumbledore promptly squashed that outburst before Hagrid squashed Karkaroff.) However, how long did it take that impulsive, affectionate young half-giant to learn his own strength -- and how many puppies and kittens did it take for him to learn it? He probably likes big, strong creatures that can fight back and stand rough handling because he *can't* hurt them easily or by accident. >If I were living in the Wizard World, I'd be terribly handicapped---I >couldn't ride a broom, summon the Knight Bus, use the Floo, get onto >Platform 9 3/4, or even into Diagon Alley without someone there to help me. >Once the novelty and wonder had worn off, I'd probably start to hate it. >(This, BTW, goes a long way toward explaining Filch, who is one of the >characters in the books I feel sorriest for---poor guy). Yes. I think Filch is mentally unbalanced, especially after reading OoP; but as someone else pointed out, the only thing worse than being around people who can all do things you can't is having to watch people in the process of *learning* to do all the things you will never be able to do. Year after year after year. (Filch may be the only character other than Umbridge that never gets any sympathy. Even Kreacher seems to have his fans -- don't ask me why -- and of course Voldemort does also. I wonder if Filch might be the person who learns magic late in life? ... Naah.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From LadySawall at aol.com Tue Jun 15 01:29:09 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:29:09 EDT Subject: That Horrid Boy (was: Re: Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101290 In a message dated 06/14/2004 3:48:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: That said, I don't think Snape's insult in the "Worst Memory" chapter proves or disproves anything, except that Snape is as capable as James of being a real jerk. Horrible as the insult was, people are capable of saying truly awful, hurtful things - even to people they care for - in moments when they have been pushed beyond their better judgment and self-control. -- Jo Ann: Just wanted to insert here that it could have been *bloody dangerous* for Snape to react any other way to Lily's attempt to help him. There was a crowd present. If he'd meekly accepted assistance from a muggle-born Gryffindor girl, and it got back to the other pureblood Slytherin boys, chances are he would have gotten it worse from them later on than he was getting from James at the time. Also note that if there was some connection (romantic or otherwise) between Severus and Lily, the Marauders likely didn't know that, and Snape would probably want to keep it that way. I doubt they would react well to the idea of any sort of association between the Greasy Git and the girl James fancied. Note that the term "Mudblood" didn't come up until James rubbed Severus' face in it in front of everyone. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 01:45:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:45:59 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava" wrote: > Cristelle: > > > If Snape tried something really horrible, why Sirius didn't > > > tell? > > Alla: > > Sirius was not exactly in the right state of mind to go > > into deep discussions about Snape. > > > Ava: > > Hmm. I repeat the quote previously cited by Cristelle: > > Black made a derisive noise. > "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find > out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." > > I guess Sirius was in the right state of mind to act like he's still > 15, though. Alla: Yes, I'd say right out of Azkaban, when his worst memories were played over and over in his head. Yes, I'd say it was the right state of mind and I don't for a minute believe that this quote is afull story, although JKR leads us to believe that it is. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 01:54:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:54:59 -0000 Subject: Everything is Sirius' fault. What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > > > > Ava:> > > Hmm. I repeat the quote previously cited by Cristelle:> > > Black made a derisive noise. > > "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to > find > > out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." > > I guess Sirius was in the right state of mind to act like he's > still > 15, though. > > Mel: > Fifteen? More like nine! I bet he even stuck out his tongue and made > a face. > > Mel, who knows that was Snape's fault too Alla: No, no, no. Everything was Sirius' fault. By the way, the ONLY reason why Snape joined DE was because of Marauders. :o) In fact, right after Pensieve scene Snape was soo upset that he went and joined Voldie and Co. Before that Snape never even came close to face Dark Arts. Ever. But after that scene, Severus decided that the only way he could get revenge at marauders will be to join DE. (This was a pure speculation on my part, of course. :) But everything was Sirius' fault) Alla From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 15 02:06:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:06:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Draco trying to kill Harry? Was:What if other teachers behaved like Snap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101293 | From: pippin_999 [mailto:foxmoth at qnet.com] | Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 17:45 PM | Pippin: | He didn't have to study them. He encountered them on the train | and he was so terrified he nearly wet himself, according to Fred | and George. If what you say is true, Draco should have thought | the sight of him would scare everybody in the stadium including | his own side into fits. I don't think so. | | He was trying to distract Harry, I'll grant you that. But if you | think that could have been fatal, what about "Weasley is our | king"? Nobody seems to have thought that was particularly | dangerous. It just distracted Ron and made him let the Quaffle | in. [Lee]: To me, there's a big difference between a very insulting song and seeing something that's been known to make a person pass out. Harry saw what he interpreted to be a dementor. Perhaps if he'd waited another few moments, he would have realized that those mental affects weren't happening so the thing couldn't be a real dementor. But he saw what he perceived as a dementor; he acted rapidly and shot off his Patronus, then went on to gain the snitch. Quoting from POA, US: "Oh!" screamed Cho, pointing. Distracted, Harry looked down. Three dementors, three tall, black, hooded dementors, were looking up at him. He didn't stop to think. Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared, "Expecto patronum!" Something silver-white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. He knew it had shot directly at the dementors but didn't pause to watch; his mind still miraculously clear, he looked ahead--he was nearly there. He stretched out the hand still grasping his wand and just managed to close his fingers over the small, struggling Snitch. END QUOTE So, Harry really believed they were dementors; he probably figured that his mind remained clear because he had reacted so fast and, possibly, had been prepared anticipating this possible occurrence of dementors. I still hold that if he hadn't been prepared, the sight may have caused him serious injury. Knowing what dementors could do to him, he reacted well under pressure, IMO. Yes, "Weasley Is Our King" was downright nasty, distracting, flustering, etc. But it wasn't known to cause anyone to lose consciousness. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 02:18:44 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:18:44 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: <00a001c45257$d51a9ce0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: snip. > > Alla previously: > > > > I disagree. respect should be earned. Yes, even by someone, who is in > > position of authority. If he blatantly abuses such position, he > > should not be respected, IMO. > K: > I said Harry should treat him respectfully not that he should respect him. > There is a difference - next time a policeman pulls you over for something > you didn't do see how far being rude and disrespectful will get you with > him. Alla: Well, if you mean that I will be respectful to the policeman, who is wrongfully pull me over then the answer is NO. I will not argue with him, of course, but that would be out of fear of being arrested, not because I respect his position of authority, which he abused in such hypothetical situation. I can also assure you that I will do everything in my power to complain at such policeman and even take it to court if I decide that he hurt me that badly. Unfortunately, Harry cannot do that. :o) Are you saying that Harry should pretend that he respects Snape out of fear of being punished? Alla From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 02:28:18 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:28:18 -0000 Subject: Petunia not the latebloomer, but magic nonetheless In-Reply-To: <00a001c45071$82e838c0$5087f343@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101295 I think that both Petunia and Dudley could be magical and yet not have the "magic late in life" label apply to them, simply because if they developed their magic early on and either hid it or had it hidden from them then they might be using magic later in the series and not be breaking J.K.R.'s statement that people are either magic or not, and also without them being the latebloomers that J.K.R. promised. The same could be said of Hagrid, he was magical to begin with but was expelled so he is just not well practiced but could use magic in the coming war. I would say that the best candidates would be one of the squibs we know, because they are the only ones that could be late bloomers in the sense that they expected to be magical but weren't, other people could be magical but so weak they don't know they are magical, or in denial,(i.e. the muggles we are familiar with), and any muggle we don't know just being magical all of a sudden doesn't make sense to me with the information we have been given( but you never know with JKR), so my bet would be on a squib, most probably Mrs. Figg in defense of Harry at the big showdown on Privet in the beginning of book 6. psychobirdgirl From strawberry at jamm.com Tue Jun 15 00:19:58 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:19:58 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101296 Jen said: > Jen: Hi Jenni! Welcome. Now Jenni: Thanks for the welcome. I must admit to being initially overwhelmed after signing up for the digest version one evening and then finding six or seven digests in my inbox the next evening! I've decided to go for "special notices" and have been trying to keep up with a few, but not all, of the current threads online. I think I've finally caught up now. :-) First, Jenni said: > 1. How did "Scabbers" end up in the hands of the Weasley family? > > The books indicate that it belonged to Percy before Ron got it, > but that doesn't seem to jive with him having been with the family > for 12 years, if you assume that "School Pets" aren't acquired > until age 11. After all, Percy is only, what, four or five years > older than Ron (I don't have my books handy and I can't remember > if he was in 5th or 6th year in PS/SS). Then in response, Jen said: > I've always imagined Peter knew the Weasleys or at least knew OF > them, and he specifically chose them for his hiding place. The > Weasleys at that time offered a refuge from the War--they lived in > the country, were not members of the Order, and Arthur didn't have > any real power at the MOM. And, most ironic, this was a Gryffindor > family. It also doesn't appear Voldemort was targeting them in any > way. > > Also, I'm not sure Sirius was right, that Pettigrew was merely > waiting for the right moment to give Harry to LV. I think he was > trying to save his own skin! Now Jenni replies: This seems to be the prevailing opinion - that Peter deliberately sought out the Weasley family in order to keep an eye on things in the wizarding world while keeping his rat-furred hide safe. But, there seems to be very little cannon support for this - only bd-bear has provided some evidence for this from the end of PoA: Earlier, sbursztynski wrote in reply to similar comments: > > Um ... is this likely? He was living as a child's pet! How much > information would he expect to hear from Percy's pocket? And then > at Hogwarts? <...SNIP...> And in response, bd-bear wrote: > Very likely, and directly from canon: > > "Why else did you find a wizard family to take you in? Keeping an > ear out for news, weren't you Peter? Just in case your old > protector regained strength, and it was safe to rejoin him. . ." > > PoA, Page 370 Now Jenni continues: Unfortunately, even that canon quote is not much more than a supposition on the speaker's (either Sirius' or Lupin's) part. Nonetheless, I do agree that hooking up with a wizarding family would certainly makes sense from Peter's POV - whether it was to keep on top of things in order to re-join VM or to know when he might safely return to the WW (i.e., once VM was truly dead, all his supporters and Sirius were eliminated) is mostly irrelevant. However, how Peter ended up with the Weasley family is still a mystery. At least, I've never seen any explanation for how Scabbers become a Weasly household pet. Also in response, Jen said: > Now that we know the Prewitt brothers were probably Molly's > brothers, Wormtail's role in all this is even more disturbing. If > he was passing information to Voldemort for a year prior to the > deaths of the Potters, did he also betray the Prewitt brothers? Now Jenni replies: We're assuming here, of course, that your belief is accurate -- that somehow Petigrew knew either the Prewitts and/or the Weasley's well enough that he had the kind of information that could be used to betray the brothers to V. If your supposition is correct, I agree that Petigrew's role in this is definitely a lot more disturbing than it may have seemed at first blush (and even that was pretty disturbing). An unrecognized mole or stool-pidgen (someone who regularly gives up useful information to the enemy in order to avoid threatened injury or other punishment) in your midst is much, much worse than knowing that someone is your enemy. A known enemy can be removed from the group and fought against. An unknown enemy is invisible and might even have access to your deepest secrets. I wish there was some more canon proof of the extent of Petegrew's involvement with V and the DE before Oct 31, 1981, and the extent to which he could potentially be responsible for other betrayals. Currently, I can't recall any specific canon proof to assume Peter Petigrew was personally familiar with the Weasley or Prewitt families. There's no particular proof that he delieberately sought the Weasleys out over finding any random wizard family to take him in either. I'm really hoping we'll get some more details in this area in books 6/7. :-D Earlier, Jenni wrote: > And it's not like he only betrayed Lily and James after > suffering through extreme torture. No, he made a conscious > decision to run to V. with the information that would betray two > of the people he'd been friends with throughout school, and *then* > he actually went out of his way to frame a third. He didn't have > to frame Sirius -- he could have done the same disappearing trick > but made it look like V. had done him in, so people might think he > only cracked after being tortured. In response, Jen wrote: > Jen: He had to frame Sirius, though, because Sirius was the one > person who knew what happened and also knew he was an Animagus. > Sirius would vow to find Peter if it was the last thing he did. > Peter wouldn't have the same sense of security if he knew Sirius > was out there, hunting him down as Padfoot. Now Jeni responds: I don't see how Sirius knowing that Peter was an animagus would necessarily equate to him not believing that Peter was dead. After all, *Lupin* thought Peter was dead and *he* knew that Peter was an Animagus. Granted, he also thought that it was Sirius who killed Peter and Sirius could conceivably have an advantage over V. because he already know that Peter was an Animagus, but that seems somewhat iffy to me. Given all we have heard about V. during the war, it seems to me that being able to kill off a git who happened to be an Animagus wouldn't be too terribly difficult for him. Heck, Peter could have made it look like he was also killed by V. at the Potter's house, leaving only a finger and lots of blood splattered about, and I'm not so sure Sirius would necessarily assume that Peter wasn't as dead as he appeared. They might even believe that Peter lost his life trying to make up for having allowed V. to get the information in the first place. Only "Vapour-Mort" would know that this wasn't true for sure, but, hey, Peter was hiding from him and the DE's anyway - they knew Sirius wasn't one of theirs so they knew that what Peter did was a frame-up. In the end, it looks like some of the questions I'd love to see answered in books 6/7 or by JKR in an interview would be: * Did Peter know the Weasleys, the Prewitt brothers or any others that V or his supporters damaged or destroyed well enough to have potentially been responsible for betraying them? * Did Peter actively participate with the DE or was he nothing more than a weak-willed "stool pidgeon" for the Dark Side? * Did Peter deliberately seek out the Weasleys (whether he had known them well or not before) when looking for a wizarding family to take him in? * Whether he sought them out or not, how did Peter end up as a Weasley family pet? * Why did Peter feel the need to frame Sirius instead of V. with his untimely death? Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Tue Jun 15 02:46:11 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (ivogun) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:46:11 -0000 Subject: Psychoanalysis of CoS revisted (with Occlumency) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101297 Following up on another post, I ran across a series of earlier posts (83402= , 83372, and 83512) about Psychoanalysis of CoS. I was a literature major, and it seems= very clear to me that some of the images in CoS (and other books) are sexual in nature. <= Blush> I am somewhat old fashioned, but I have been taught to make connections! After s= eeing the above posts, I reread parts of CoS. I think the sexual image is even strong= er than the earlier posts indicate?the "pregnant pause" between Ron and Harry at the en= trance to the chamber, the rape imagery with Basilisk voice " tear rip kill from diffe= rent places in the book (and, think, what the shape a Basilisk --snake--reminds one of. )= Of course, one of the previous posts notes the chamber scene where Tom Ridd= le gloats like a rapist over his victim. And Ginny, well she is almost a stereotypica= l victim whose trust has been betrayed. Also, for me anyway, there is something about the= whole chamber of scene that is reminiscent of Dracula movies, another story that= has a lot of sexual undertones. Not too far fetched either ...for in SS/PS LV, does dr= ink unicorn blood and in OotP, and Bellatrix does behave like one of Dracula's female servan= ts (slaves). Since Harry is adolescent, sex and love are major issues. How can they not = be? I think JKR has included sexual feeling symbolically, so that the books remain suitable= for children, yet pictures adolescence in a way that is meaningful to adults. Quite an ac= complishment! And Harry well he is still somewhat a kid still, for he seems quite innocen= t. Anyway, this snake imagery is appears in other places. And yes, sometimes = the snakes are just reptiles, and at other times they relate to Slytherins, but there are= times where snakes allude in some way to sex. In PS/SS, we find that the rather Victor= ian Dursley's send Harry to his "closet" for "the longest time ever" after Harry lets the= snake loose in the zoo. (And Harry is clueless to why they are so upset.) After all Harry has= done some other bits of noticeable bits of magic, such as when he turned his teacher's wig= blue and when he managed to jump up on the school roof, but it is the incident with the s= nake that angers the Dursleys the most at this point in the story. Later, in OotP, Harry has dreams, but not his normal ones; these "dreams" c= enter on a closed door, and eventually the snake. These dreams make Harry him feel gui= lty/dirty. Allusions to sexual fantasies on some level? And in the occlumency lessons = that Harry has from Snape, where Harry is told to empty his mind of strong feelings, etc. = before bed, doesn't that seem a lot like advice given to teens? Anyway I do think adds = another dimension to that occlumency lesson disaster that Harry had with Snape. It'= s hard to imagine anyone who would be a worse candidate than Snape for giving Harry f= atherly advise on sex (and on one level that is what it is involved.) Fro= m what we glean from Snape's pensieve, we learn how bad an idea that this is. Poor Harry. Barbara (Ivogun), who can't believe she wrote this post From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 02:56:44 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:56:44 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: snip. Alla previously: I disagree. respect should be earned. Yes, even by someone, who is in position of authority. If he blatantly abuses such position, he should not be respected, IMO. K: I said Harry should treat him respectfully not that he should respect him. There is a difference - next time a policeman pulls you over for something you didn't do see how far being rude and disrespectful will get you with him. Are you saying that Harry should pretend that he respects Snape out of fear of being punished? Alla imamommy here: I think HArry should show Snape respect simply because he will become a better person for doing so. Harry can't control Snape, but he can control his own behavior, and he needs to learn to do so. I think Snape's quote about learning to controlling his emotions (although somewhat hypocritical, IMHO) is a key for Harry to grow up. Instead of the scenario with a policeman, let's think what would happen if the next time another driver cut me off I rammed the back of his car with my minivan. Not good for me, my car, or my insurance rate. Harry needs to show Snape respect simply to avoid endangering himself any further. But I doubt he'll do it. ;) imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 03:02:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:02:26 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: snip. Harry needs > to show Snape respect simply to avoid endangering himself any further. > > But I doubt he'll do it. > ;) > > imamommy Alla: I doubt he will do it too, untill some critical moment comes up and he will need either to trust Snape or I don't know - save his life. It makes for a very fun read.. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 03:25:22 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:25:22 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KuteJCLuvr at a... wrote: > imamommy writes: imamommy: "'Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?'" (Sirius Black to Severus Snape in OoP, p 520, Scholastic edition) It would appear, then, that ol' Snivelly did know Lucius, whether in school or after. imamommy > > > according to Sirius, Snape was > > sort of Lucius' stooge. > > Wait! I thought it had been found that Lucius graduated when Snape and > the marauders were all in second year! Snape was friends with Bellatrix > and many other Death Eaters, but he was not in the same year or remotely > close to Lucius. > > Yuiren, who just decided to read OotP for the fifth or so time just because > she got confused by this comment and really needs a life... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 03:33:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:33:20 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets same as Room of requirement. Was: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: snip. > Pippin > who notes that the Chamber of Secrets, like the Room of > Requirement, was able to provide Harry with what he needed. > Maybe Tom only found a basilisk and a gigantic statue of > Slytherin in the Chamber because he wanted to. Pippin, your reading of canon is one of the most original and unusual on the list. This is interesting. So, does it mean that Salsar never left Basilisk at school, but Chamber of Secrets just conjured one according to tom's wishes and it stayed there for fifty years? Curious, very curious. :o) Alla From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 03:38:56 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:38:56 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House: DE's and others Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101302 imamommy: I don't think that all Slytherins turn out to be Voldemort followers, but I don't know that they are necessarily pleasant, either. I have my own theories on possible Slytherins. For example: 1. Barty Crouch, Sr. fits a Slytherin profile, pureblood, highly ambitious, ruthless, but never a DE. 2. Rita Skeeter also has a highly ambitious personality, as does 3. Prof. Lockheart, as does 4. Delores Umbridge 5. Cornelius Fudge IMO, any or all of these may have been in Slytherin House. Snape *was* a DE, but is no longer, yet I don't think he's lost any of his "Slytherin-ness". (Maybe Snape is the "Good Slytherin"!) I don't think JKR is trying to pidgeonhole anyone, I think she's recognizing that, oh, maybe 25% of the population have these particular attributes. They won't all turn out to be DE's, maybe, but they will still have ambition as a common thread. imamommy who wonders if the sorting hat shouldn't have chucked Percy Weasley in Slytherin From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 03:47:08 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:47:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's Rebellion(Was: Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101303 Harry needs to show Snape respect simply to avoid endangering himself any further. But I doubt he'll do it. ;) imamommy Alla: I doubt he will do it too, untill some critical moment comes up and he will need either to trust Snape or I don't know - save his life. It makes for a very fun read.. imamommy: I've been thinking lately about Harry's potential reactions to all that happened in OoP. I predict that he will make a *real*, full-fledged teenage rebellion next year, alienating his friends for a time, and going through a denial of his role in what is going on. I'm not sure what form this will take, exactly, but I think he's got a long way to go before he will be ready to accept all that is occurring. Thoughts? imamommy From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 03:54:04 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:54:04 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101304 Pippin: > It is a secret. Sirius does not know, in GoF, that Snape was a DE. > In fact, he can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire > him if that were the case. (chapter 27, GoF) Mel: Which is really something when you realize he's been incarcerated AS a DE, *with* DEs for TWELVE YEARS. Now that's just odd. He's heard NOTHING about Snape? Not even how that weasel slipped out of facing his charges...or how that snake pulled the wool over everyone's eyes...? Nothing? Either it's a BIG DARK SECRET all wrapped up in some magical-wizarding bow or Sirius Black is really, really dumb. >snip< Snow replies: Very good point, except that JKR protected herself by presenting the pencieve scenario with Karkaroff where he states that not all the death eaters new each other. So even the most loyal of servants may have not known every one of Voldemort's servants. What if no one other than Voldemort new of Snape being one of his servants at that point, yes even Lucius or Bella? What if Snape after being disrespected by DD over the whole humiliating, and to Snape life threatening, prank incident where DD neglects to punish any one of the offenders to the degree that Snape felt they should have been punished, turned to Voldemort almost in a fit of rage over the injustice. Snape then tells Voldemort that he could be of use to him but doesn't want anyone else to be aware of his allegiance because he could be of more use to him as a spy. As far as Lucius and Snape's friendship, do we know for sure that Lucius knows Snape to be a DE? We know they speak to each other but do we know that they are anything more than so-called Slytherin friends? We have been led to believe this by association but are they death eater friends? From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Tue Jun 15 02:51:45 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:51:45 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101305 > Potioncat: > I have a question about your question. I've seen it before, and I'm > wondering, can Snape choose which memories to go after? He says > it's not like reading a book. Does canon give us any ideas on > this? Because I never thought he targeted certain memories. > I think this is a good point. We don't have much evidence that Snape is targeting specific memories. Having said that, however, there is still an obvious failure in the method (and I understanding you are not necessarily defending Snape's methods). Harry should have been offered the courtesy of a pensieve to protect his most painful/embarassing memories in a way similar to Severus' sequestration of HIS painful memories. Once Harry had become more proficient at blocking Snape's attacks, this would not have been necessary. However, it would, almost certainly, have greatly facilitated Harry's comfort and his ability to learn. Dzeytoun From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 04:24:10 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:24:10 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101306 Jen said: > > Now that we know the Prewitt brothers were probably Molly's > > brothers, Wormtail's role in all this is even more disturbing. If > > he was passing information to Voldemort for a year prior to the > > deaths of the Potters, did he also betray the Prewitt brothers? Jenni Replied: > We're assuming here, of course, that your belief is accurate -- > that somehow Petigrew knew either the Prewitts and/or the Weasley's > well enough that he had the kind of information that could be used > to betray the brothers to V. > > I wish there was some more canon proof of the extent of Petegrew's > involvement with V and the DE before Oct 31, 1981, and the extent to > which he could potentially be responsible for other betrayals. > Currently, I can't recall any specific canon proof to assume Peter > Petigrew was personally familiar with the Weasley or Prewitt > families. Jen: Well, we do have canon proof that Pettigrew and the Prewett brothers knew each other--the photo Moody shows Harry in OOTP. Not only do they know each other, but all three seem to be part of a core group of the Original Order. Whether Pettigrew betrayed them over the course of the year prior to the Potters--I'm indulging in speculation there! JKR told us on her web-site that Molly's maiden name was Prewett, and that she lost "close family members" in the First War--it seems more than coincidence that Gideon and Fabian Prewett are mentioned in OOTP, killed by 5 DE's. If they aren't her brothers, they must be cousins. Jenni: > I don't see how Sirius knowing that Peter was an animagus would > necessarily equate to him not believing that Peter was dead. After > all, *Lupin* thought Peter was dead and *he* knew that Peter was an > Animagus. Jen: The only reason Lupin thought Peter was dead was because of the blown-up street and the finger. Otherwise, if no body or body-parts were found, I think Lupin & Sirius would be highly suspicious that Peter had turned into a rat to escape. True, Peter could have just turned into a rat and left it at that *if* he was still working with the DE's. But after Voldemort turned to vapor, Peter had not only Sirius, but the DE's after him. Even as a rat his days were surely numbered. The staged scene in the street was Peter's way out--*everyone* believed him dead. Jenni: > Heck, Peter could have > made it look like he was also killed by V. at the Potter's house, > leaving only a finger and lots of blood splattered about, and I'm > not so sure Sirius would necessarily assume that Peter wasn't as > dead as he appeared. They might even believe that Peter lost his > life trying to make up for having allowed V. to get the information > in the first place. Jen: True, if Peter was at Godric's Hollow that night. But Peter would have had to be an incredibly quick thinker! Assuming he wasn't hurt in the blast, he would have to realize what happened to Voldemort, surmise that the DE's would come after him, stage a scene with his finger or other body part that could be found and identified in the rubble...it seems like too much to do on moment's notice, after a traumatic event and before everyone arrived at Godric's Hollow. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 04:29:09 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:29:09 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101307 Right now, I can't remeber one instance where Trelawney has used a wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene or find it in the books. From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 15 04:50:25 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:50:25 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101308 > In the end, it looks like some of the questions I'd love to see > answered in books 6/7 or by JKR in an interview would be: > > * Did Peter know the Weasleys, the Prewitt brothers or any others > that V or his supporters damaged or destroyed well enough to have > potentially been responsible for betraying them? > > * Did Peter actively participate with the DE or was he nothing more > than a weak-willed "stool pidgeon" for the Dark Side? > > * Did Peter deliberately seek out the Weasleys (whether he had known > them well or not before) when looking for a wizarding family to take > him in? ... > > * Why did Peter feel the need to frame Sirius instead of V. with his > untimely death? > > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Well, now that JKR has thrown us the bone of Legilimency to chew on, we need to re-evaluate what we think we know. Particularly in regards to Peter Pettigrew, and even more particularly if we have been thinking that we know it for any length of time. Because the concept of Legilimency seriously unbalances most of our earlier theories, and a lot of the other characters' assumptions. For one thing, it is obvious, now, that unless the Secret Keeper was a master Legilimens, or Occlumens himself, there is no way that he could have managed to keep that secret if he were dragged before the Dark Lord and met his eyes. A captured Sirius Black would have fared no better than Peter did, so we really have *no* certainty as to whether Peter deliberately betrayed the Potters or not. (Salutary reminder of Legilimency in action: end of PS/ss; LV makes Quirrell take off the turban and turn around. He looks Harry in the eye, taunts him for a moment and demands the Stone in his pocket.) I *do* suspect that Peter betrayed the Prewetts and probably many if not most of the people on Moody's casualty list. I do *not* think he turned his coat voluntarily. Pressure was brought to bear, and he caved. But if he was passing information to the DEs for *a full year* before the Potters went into hiding, I think he may have been giving them everyone *but* the Potters. He's a Gryffindor. They don't daydream of wining the field at any cost. They dream of being *heroes*. He thought he was getting away with it. Yes, he was sending harm people's way, but they were all people who could take care of themselves, or so he told himself. He was protecting his *own* friends. And no one would suspect *him* of being their Secret keeper. He may even have told himself a fine tale of how he, little Peter Pettigrew whom no one really considered, would be the one to infiltrate the DEs and save the day. And once the Potters were safely in hiding, he took his fatal step and agreed to take the Mark. And was brought before Voldemort himself, and met the Dark Lord's eye. And he was trapped. Well, he'd only been keeping that secret for about a week and he was only just now comming forward to join up, so he was able to do some convincing tap-dancing about how he had only just now decided to give the Potters to Voldemort. To the DEs it must have looked as if "Wormtail" had come in out of nowhere and immediately led their leader into a trap. Which is why he needed to fake his death. He had both Sirius Black AND the DEs on his tail. The DEs he might be able to shake off. But Sirius knew too much about Pettigrew altogether, and needed to be stopped from blurting the information about Pettigrew being the secret keeper, or he'd have the Order on his tail as well. Ergo, however he made his escape it needed to be in a manner which would discredit Black and take him out of commission. Lupin wasn't as big a problem, even if he knew most of the pieces of the information. He didn't know about the Secret Keeper switch, and that had to be supressed at all cost. For one thing. Even if Lupin *did* figure it out, he wasn't likely to try hunting him down *himself*. Sirius could be a dog any day of the month. His tracking capabilities were not limited to the phase of the moon. As to the Weasleys; At this point we don't really know enough about Pettigrew's background to be able to say anything deffinite, but from the series so far, it looks to me very much as if the largest single employer of trained wizards and witches is the Ministry of Magic. We know that Arthur works for the Ministry. It really isn't that much of a stretch to believe that Pettigrew may have as well. James may have been well-off enough not to need to work, and Lupin may have been unemployable, but I suspect Pettigrew had a day job. And the Order worked *with* the Ministry the first time around so there may have been an opportunity for contact there as well. Plus, Peter did know Gideon and Fabian Prewitt from the Order, even if not closely, and could ell have been aware that their sister/cousin/niece/whatever Molly was married to a Ministry wonk named Arthur Weasley and had seven children under the age of 10. That isn't exactly common in the ww and the recollection may have stuck. If we can make another leap of reasoning and postulate that Pettigrew may have had pet rats as a child nimself, a country retirement as a family pet may have been an easy decision. (Percy would have been 5 or 6 when Scabbers showed up. It would have been some years before Pettigrew was hauled off to Hogwarts. And I think Percy did take him to school until he got Hermes and passed him on to Ron, since he couldn't take an owl *and* a rat. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 05:04:43 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:04:43 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Son of Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101309 I was annoyed by a fervent pro-Draco filk someone submitted recently to HPF, and I came up with this response The Son of Lucius Malfoy Dedicated to Ginger To the tune of In Enterprise of Martial Kind, aka The Duke of Plaza- Toro, from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Gondoliers ? text and MIDI here. http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/gondoliers/html/gn_03.html THE SCENE: Slytherin Commons. Enter CHORUS OF SLYTHERINS, to serenade one of their own. BLAISE ZABINI does the snare drum solos. PANSY He's brilliant, handsome, brave and bold Or so they say in fanfic But when the Canon's roar takes hold He's one who always ran quick. "A duel, oh Harry, let's begin!" But showed up not at all, oy! That lily-livered Timber-shivered Undelivered Slytherin The son of Lucius Malfoy! ALL He is our fellow sneak, ha, ha! With quite the yellow streak, ha, ha! That lily-livered Undelivered Timber-shivered Slytherin The son of Lucius Malfoy! MONTAGUE When 'mentors glided through our grounds And gave Potter great anguish Our hero did a plan propound That he would not let languish But when disguised in dusky sheets He quite lost his morale, oy! That masquerading Unpersuading Truth-evading Chaffy cheat The son of Lucius Malfoy ALL When faced with Patron's blast, ha, ha! To earth he quickly passed, ha, ha! That masquerading Unpersuading Truth-evading Chaffy cheat The son of Lucius Malfoy MILLICENT When Lucius was to sent to the poke For Voldemort a-helping His son did Gryffindor provoke With Crabbe and Goyle a-yelping. In contrast to Harry's D.A., He proved the weaker alloy That red-and-swelling Badly smelling Cellar-dwelling Popinjay The son of Lucius Malfoy ALL His fans adore his mug, ha, ha! Though oozing like a slug, ha, ha! That red-and-swelling Badly smelling Cellar-dwelling Popinjay The son of Lucius Malfoy That red-and-swelling Badly smelling Cellar-dwelling Popinjay The son of Lucius Malfoy! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 15 05:37:32 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:37:32 -0000 Subject: What was the Order of the Phoenix? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101310 We have yet to be given a *really* satisfactory explanation for what the OotP's actual function was back in VoldWar I. In Book 5 it is a "secret society". Well, okay, since the Ministry is trying to shut down anyone who claims that Voldemort is back, it has to be secret. From the Ministry as well as from Voldemort. But it wasn't any secret to the Ministry the first time around. It is not a stretch to believe that it was something fairly classified the first time around as well, but they worked *with* the Ministry in the first VoldWar, and a good deal of what it is doing now, may not be it's original agenda, but something it is only doing because the Ministry won't. I'm not sure that the kids' nebulous understanding that it was merely made up of people who "fought Voldemort" is altogether on-target. So what do we know about it? And what was its function likely to have been? What we know: Dumbledore founded it. (When? We don't know) The Potters and the Longbottoms were both involved. Molly and Arthur Weasley were not. When Moody found the vintage photo of the original Order he immediately thought it would be a fine thing to show it to Harry. That last strikes me as significant. I have a theory; I think that the Order of the Phoenix was founded to perform a function that Albus Dumbledore felt was essential, that the Ministry could not or would not take on. Essentially the Ministry "contracted out" this particular function to Dumbledore. By the time Harry and Neville were born the WW had been under attack by a group of organized terrorists for about 10 years. The Ministry's resources were entirely taken up by the war effort (as well as attempting to keep the actual business of running the WW from breaking down completely). For that entire span of time Albus Dumbledore had a day job. A very demanding one. He couldn't be everwhere at once, and he couldn't take on additional major comittments without help which could be where he couldn't, hear what he wouldn't and act in his absence. So he founded the Order and staffed it with some of his own most trusted personal associates, along with the people who were most deeply involved, along with some of their closest friends and family members. Namely; the Potters and the Longbottoms. The function of the origional Order of the Phoenix was specifically to protect the two most likely candidates for being the child of the Trelawney prophesy. It was the Harry Potter/Neville Longbottom Protective Association. The Ministry couldn't handle it. They were already stretched to the limit. They couldn't redeploy Ministry resources on the strength of a maybe-prophesy from a self announced seer with no track record whatsoever. And besides they knew that Voldemort had moles in their organization. Actually, since we now know how the Fidelius Charm works It's amazing that both couples didn't protect their homes (and their children) with it from the outset. They would have been free to come and go as they pleased, risking their *own* lives, but the children would have been safe. But perhaps there was some other consideration at work. We don't really know everything about that charm. But I suspect that now the breech with the Ministry has been settled, the Order of the Phoenix may be returning to it's original function as teh Harry Potter Potective Association. From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 05:51:54 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:51:54 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101311 > Snow replies: > Very good point, except that JKR protected herself by presenting the > pencieve scenario with Karkaroff where he states that not all the > death eaters new each other. So even the most loyal of servants may > have not known every one of Voldemort's servants. What if no one > other than Voldemort new of Snape being one of his servants at that > point, yes even Lucius or Bella? Problem is, Karakoff knew Snape was a DE. He named him at the trial, and knew to seek out Snape at Hogwarts when the Dark Mark was getting clearer. Plus, in that Pensieve scene, pg 513 UK, Moody has a "deep look of scepticism" when D-Dore stands up to vouch for Snape. That can be interpreted to mean Moody had crossed paths with Snape before, while Snape was a DE. > What if Snape after being disrespected by DD over the whole > humiliating, and to Snape life threatening, prank incident where DD > neglects to punish any one of the offenders to the degree that Snape felt they should have been punished, turned to Voldemort almost in a fit of rage over the injustice. Snape then tells Voldemort that he could be of use to him but doesn't want anyone else to be aware of his allegiance because he could be of more use to him as a spy. > Couple of points here: 1) V-Mort wasn't going to take orders, or even suggestions, from a student. If Snape's identity wasn't revealed (and we know Karakoff knew it) it was because V-Mort wished it, not because Snape made a demand. 2) We don't know exactly what punishment Sirius received for the Prank, although it wasn't expulsion. We can assume James probably got off lightly, if he was punished at all, because, after all, he didn't help plan the prank and once he found out about it, stopped Snape. 3) One of the things that has always bothered me about the prank was why Snape fell for it. He and Sirius despised each other, yet when Sirius tells Snape to go into a dark room, he does??? Just how STUPID is Snape? Maybe there is more to it. Maybe Sirius let it be overheard, so Snape would think he was getting one over. Maybe Sirius was feigning a falling-out with James and the guys. But that still bugs the hell out of me. > As far as Lucius and Snape's friendship, do we know for sure that > Lucius knows Snape to be a DE? We know they speak to each other but > do we know that they are anything more than so-called Slytherin > friends? We have been led to believe this by association but are they death eater friends? It really is hard to tell. Lucius is so connected that it seems hard to believe that he would not have heard the testimony, from D-Dore or Karakoff, that Snape was a DE. Snape could have used any number of excuses. (Yes, Lucius, I pretended to turn to their side, but I am waiting as well.) This would go a long way toward explaining his behavior at school. He has a cover to maintain, after all. And if Draco caught him being nice to a mudblood, a Weasley, a Longbottom and Harry Potter, of all people, then Draco would say so to his father. Of course, Snape would need a huge excuse for why he doesn't return to the big reunion in GoF. Perhaps the old "I couldn't apparate out of Hogwarts" was the best way. Snape revealing himself to Fudge, who is in constant contact with Lucius, also could have revealed his DE secret. Canon has not specifically said Lucius knows Snape was a DE, but I have a hard time seeing how that could be true. Darrin From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 15 06:21:47 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:21:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > I think there's going to be an attack at Privet Drive this summer. > And Vernon will die. > I don't. We've still got the summer after 6th year to cover and pulling Apocolypse Now right after 5th year just isn't going to happen. Rowling isn't going to give us the punch line on the Dursley story one minute before Book 7. And it's a toss-up whether she will do it at the beginning of that book or the end. (Don't forget that the whole series *started* from Vernon Dursley's PoV. It may very well end there.) JKR has also already stated in her World Book Day that Harry's stay with the Dursleys the summer of Book 6 is going to be his shortest yet. What I think is that the situation with the linkage between Harry and Voldemort is just too vulnerable to leave unadressed for any more time than can be helped. I think that Harry is going to be pulled out of the Dursley household, on Dumbledore's orders, within a couple of weeks and slapped into some secure location (we do not yet know what the current ownership of 12 Grimmauld Place is. This could be another location altogether) and given a crash course in Occlumency and/or Legilimency under Dumbledore or -- as an outside possibility -- Remus Lupin. Who may not have been a Legilimens when he was still in school, or associated with the original OotP, but I suspect had become at least a reasonably competent one by the time we met him in PoA. In fact, since I also suspect that the remaining mystery surrounding the werewolf caper is something that she intends to clear up and clear away before diving into the home stretch of the series (she has also stated that book 6 is when we find out what happens to Pettgrew) this would be a very reasonable time to get that particular ball rolling as well. In any case, I suspect that Harry is also going to be learning *something* unexpected that he is going to need time to process. I think that it is also *possible* that we won't see Ron and Hermione until it's time to catch the Hogwarts Express. But that is a good deal more up in the air than the rest of these speculations and I'm not going to be upset to find I'm wrong. And, just for fun, I'll stick my neck out and predict that Ginny, Luna and Neville will each at some point in the year do something that takes whoever they are with by surprise. And Ginny may get another chance to pin Harry's ears back and make him squirm. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 06:51:25 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:51:25 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <54E5B0B5.4D3244FB.02576AF9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101313 > Lee wrote: > >> If we look at Hogwarts and compare it to a regular school system, at > least the one in the US that I'm familiar with, career counseling didn't > come until one's junior year of high school. So, even though we had > electives we could take when starting HS or in the middle of HS, the > career thing and college thing didn't start to rear its ugly head until > junior year. Geoff: Can I ask a clarification for UK readers? Can I assume that "electives" are what we would call "options", i.e. the choices we make at Year 10 (the old Fourth Year) of subjects we are taking to GCSE level? And which year is the "junior year" of High School? Ta! From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 07:00:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:00:10 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets same as Room of requirement. Was: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > snip. > > > Pippin > > who notes that the Chamber of Secrets, like the Room of > > Requirement, was able to provide Harry with what he needed. > > Maybe Tom only found a basilisk and a gigantic statue of > > Slytherin in the Chamber because he wanted to. Alla: > Pippin, your reading of canon is one of the most original and unusual > on the list. Geoff: What would you consider the Chamber of Secrets provided that Harry needed? As I see the position, it led him into a situation where Riddle (or more accurately the basilisk) nearly finished him off . From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 07:12:51 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:12:51 -0000 Subject: Petunia, remember my last prophecy! (Petunia latebloomer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101316 psychobirdgirl wrote: I would say that the best candidates would be one of the squibs we know, because they are the only ones that could be late bloomers in the sense that they expected to be magical but weren't, other people could be magical but so weak they don't know they are magical, or in denial,(i.e. the muggles we are familiar with), and any muggle we don't know just being magical all of a sudden doesn't make sense to me with the information we have been given( but you never know with JKR), so my bet would be on a squib, most probably Mrs. Figg in defense of Harry at the big showdown on Privet in the beginning of book 6. vmonte responds: Remember the howler that Petunia got? The howler that spoke in a scary eerie voice that Harry did not recognize as DD. Trelawny speaks in another voice when she is prophesizing, maybe this is DD's Seer voice? I remember when DD told Harry that he had been thinking of removing divinity from the school altogether--until he met Trelawny. (Why remove the subject you say? Well maybe because divinity is ambiguous, non-specific, often missinterpreted, and usually revealed after-the- fact.) What if DD has a couple prophecy orbs himself? The same ambiguous, and non direct kind of prophecies like Trelawny. There is one at the house of the child born in the seventh month who will...blah blah blah...develop magic late in life...this one will be protected by the child who can vanquish the dark lord...blah blah blah...on this non-specific ambiguous date and time... This prophecy is the reason Petunia agreed to take in Harry. DD's howler reminds Petunia of the prophecy. Here is the thing, I think that Petunia has assumed that the prophecy is about Dudley, but it is really about herself. Petunia lived with a witch, her sister. She would know the early signs. She has been trying to keep Dudley from getting angry and upset his whole life in fear that he would reveal his magical side. The problem is that the prophecy is really about her --- HAHA. vivian From greatraven at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 07:31:47 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (Sue Bursztynski) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:31:47 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101317 Hi Kelley, Yeah, I saw that post - thought, "Ouch! I wonder when a friendly list-elf will step in here?" I was tempted to say, "Hey, guys, we're talking about a piece of fiction here, calm down!" but thought better to leave it to you guys. I hope they get the message - we're in this for fun. Sometimes I almost hit "send" at the wrong moment, then "clear" instead. Not worth the hassle. Cheers! Sue PS I've seen the film once, enjoyed very much, though they will have to explain in the next film some things they've left out. Hope you enjoyed it too. > >Hello, everyone. > >From the HBF: >"We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." > >Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; >debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions >are the reasons for this group's existence. As adults, we expect >everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and >we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another >without being snide or insulting. > >Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the >argument. Do not attack or insult other list members. If you find >yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read your response >later and find a way to make your point without attacking others. >Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull offending threads. > > >--Kelley Elf, for the Admin Team > _________________________________________________________________ What's your house worth? Click here to find out: http://www.ninemsn.realestate.com.au From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 15 07:41:03 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:41:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was the Order of the Phoenix? References: Message-ID: <01bb01c452ac$1c9c89d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101318 > So he founded the Order and staffed it with some of his own most > trusted personal associates, along with the people who were most > deeply involved, along with some of their closest friends and family > members. > > Namely; the Potters and the Longbottoms. I'm sorry, but it looks like I found a quote in the OOP chapter named "The Lost Prophecy" that contradicts this theory. "The odd thing, Harry," he said softly, "is that it may not have meant you at all. Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix..." That means that the Order already existed before the prophecy was made and the need to protect the two families arose and that they have already been members of it. Alina. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 08:20:30 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:20:30 -0000 Subject: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101319 jodel wrote: So he founded the Order and staffed it with some of his own most trusted personal associates, along with the people who were most deeply involved, along with some of their closest friends and family members. Namely; the Potters and the Longbottoms. The function of the origional Order of the Phoenix was specifically to protect the two most likely candidates for being the child of the Trelawney prophesy. It was the Harry Potter/Neville Longbottom Protective Association. vmonte responds: Maybe the order is a lot older than even that. The name of the group: The Order of the Phoenix, implies a much longer lived society. The Phoenix is a bird that lives for thousands of years and continuously dies and is reborn. I was rereading OOTP and came across the scene where Harry informs Lupin that he is no-longer taking Occlumeny lessons. Lupin tells Harry that he must go back and tell Snape that he must continue the lessons because Harry must learn it! It is the single most important thing he must accomplish (lots of paraphrasing). Through the whole series of books Harry has always been given the tools, lessons, animals, etc, that he has needed to accomplish certain goals. In PoA alone, Hagrid makes sure he is acquainted with Buckbeak. Lupin teaches him the patronus charm. Hermione is given the time-turner, which is used later. What if Harry and the kids are being singled out and trained for an as yet mentioned role? (A role in which they will continue the work of the Order?) I also think that Harry may need to learn Occlumency not to protect himself from present day Voldemort, but because he will need to go back in time and impersonate James. And yes, someone will figure out who he is because of his eyes... Just to throw some thoughts out... Has the Order been around since the original founders of Hogwarts broke up? Did Salazar mess with the time-line? Has Voldemort somehow created a larger rift in time? Are the Order protectors of time? vivian From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Tue Jun 15 09:30:10 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:30:10 +0200 Subject: Is Lupin ambiguous? was: What's subversive? Message-ID: <99023C00-BEAE-11D8-9DB5-000A95665DE8@m4x.org> No: HPFGUIDX 101320 > Pippin: > I agree. But what, in that characterization, precludes him from > joining Voldemort? I found your list of OOP references > fascinating and useful but perhaps a bit, er, selective? Not on > purpose, I hasten to add. In that spirit, a few additions: > > You mention that Lupin thinks the goblins would be tempted by > freedom more than gold, but not what he thought they would be > tempted to do: ally with the murderer of their families. > This was why I wanted to list every other appearances of Lupin. All that Lupin says is that goblins might prefer freedom to their current position (and it is implied in his statement that they are ready to suffer and inflict violence to gain freedom). It is Arthur who brings the question of Voldemort murdering goblins. Now, I know that your opinion is that if Lupin is willing to consider that goblins are willing to ally with Voldemort, then there is no reason why werewolves shouldn't. But that's what I call subversive reading. Or maybe I dismiss as subversive any reading that confronts my subjectivity, I don't know. This is how I read the whole goblins discussion: 1) Voldemort is bad to everyone. 2) The wizards have been denying freedom to goblins. 3) Between two evils, the goblins might be tempted to chose Voldemort. The logical conclusion to draw is that Lupin could be tempted to join Voldemort if he had any chance to be better accepted in a society ruled by Voldemort. That seems contrary to what I read in the books. Remus is a half-blood, nothing that is too much liked by Malfoy and Lestrange, the seemingly two lieutenants of Voldemort. Besides, he's a werewolf. I grant you that we don't know for sure Voldemort's opinion about those but Mrs. Black clearly despises them and she thought "Voldemort had the right idea." In the top-list of what Kreacher hates, one finds "Mudbloods and werewolves" even before "traitors and thieves." Seeing that Kreacher adores Bellatrix, it is reasonable to suppose that werewolves are not too popular among pureblood-supremacist. > You agree with me that Lupin is capable of legilimency, but don't > suggest he might be using it when he aims his long, hard look > at Sirius as Sirius is thinking about how much of what he knows > should be told to Harry. > No, no, I actually grant you that, I didn't mention it for fear my post would know no end. > Olivier: > > We can suspect that Sirius and Lupin both know from the start > about Dumbledore's plan to trap Voldemort in the Mom (look up > the fleeting look between them during the diner). He has also > argued that Lupin's weak points are his cowardice and his > desire to be liked. However, in all the references above, I fail to > discern such traits. Even in the Pensieve scene, it is Peter and > the pair James/Sirius who seems very concerned about being > liked. Remus is utterly absent, he reads and wants to do some > homework.< > > Pippin: > Whoa! Now *that's* what I call subversive reading, Olivier! JKR > is the one who said that Lupin's great weakness was his desire > to be liked, and offered that as the explanation for why he cuts > his friends so much slack. (Albert Hall interview) > I don't deny that. Lupin was certainly very eager to be liked when he was young, and there is no doubt that's why he never stopped James bullying of Snape. What I wanted to say is that I fail to discern both cowardice and an excessive desire to be liked in the grown-up Lupin. He doesn't fear to contradict both Molly and Sirius in their row for instance. Nor does he fear to tell Harry off. > It would also be a subversive reading, IMO, to think that > Dumbledore is not telling Harry everything he knows about the > Prophecy when he says he is. And Dumbledore takes sole > responsibility for Harry's ignorance about the prophecy. He says, > over and over, that he alone could have warned Harry that > Voldemort was trying to lure him to the Department of Mysteries > --meaning that up to the time of the conference in Dumbledore's > office, there was no one else, besides Voldemort and his > servants, who to Dumbledore's knowledge was aware of it. > > Supposedly, the Order only knew that they were guarding a > prophecy about Voldemort, that only Voldemort could retrieve. > Dumbledore says that Snape "deduced" where Harry had gone. > If Dumbledore thought Snape knew that Voldemort was trying to > get Harry to the DoM to retrieve the Prophecy for him, then he > wouldn't have thought that Snape had to deduce anything. > > If Sirius and Lupin have knowledge of Harry's connection to the > prophecy, they didn't find out from Dumbledore. So > that is an ambiguity. Maybe Dumbledore is lying. Maybe JKR > made a mistake. Maybe Dumbledore told James about the > Prophecy but wrongly believes that James told nobody > else. Or maybe Lupin's knowledge comes from Voldemort, and > he told Sirius, pretending that he got the knowledge from > James. Which reading is subversive? Beats me. > Maybe Dumbledore warn Sirius that Voldemort was probably going to use Harry (afer all Sirius is Harry closest relative). And maybe Sirius told Remus (his best friend and possible partner) or Dumbledore also told Lupin because he trusts him as a possible leader of the Order if anything should happen to himself. That would be my non subversive reading. Not to say your reading is flawed in any way, you could very possibly be right, but I don't think it is the most natural way to read the books. > > Pippin: > Hmmm. In each book there turns out to be a villain whom Harry > thought innocent or incapable of deceiving him: Quirrell, Tom > Riddle, Scabbers, Impostor!Moody, and Kreacher. In each book > there are ambiguities which the intelligent reader recognizes > were deliberately planted clues to the identity of this person. On > her website JKR says that she is constructing Book Six with the > help of a huge chart that tells her which clues have to go into > which "innocent" chapters. My stand on that is that the "innocent seeming villain" was a symbolic device that may not be necessary anymore. But I will write more about that later. I remark though that, in OoP, it is questionable to say that either Kreacher's or Umbridge's forfeits came as big shocks. > Elkins also might be referring to the things readers imagine to > make an engaging tale fit better with their personal > philosophies or desires, in contravention of the authors' intent or > the sense of the story. I could be guilty of that, but I have tried > to support my ideas with references to JKR's philosophy and > intentions, not mine. This is exactly how I understood it. And I must say that I have sometimes issues with how you interpretation JKR's philosophy. I was particularly intrigued by a comment you made on Mut (i.e courage) as the prime virtue in JKR's world. But I shall not try to delve into that for fear my posts turn into repeated attack on yours. On the contrary, I will pay homage to them and try to understand why I feel so compelled to defend Lupin. That is, I will confess why I so eagerly hold to the (maybe subversive) hope nothing is deeply wrong with Lupin. I have a very psychological reading of the books, constantly seeing them as metaphors and symbols. So I naturally tried to fit my own persona in them. I had trouble doing so with the young generation, because I'm certainly not like Ron, and certainly not as hard-working as Hermione. So that left Harry, and indeed I often feel close to him, but there were significant differences. And there came Lupin. I felt very close to this gentle yet wary, caring yet sharp, intellectual man with an uncontrollable beast slumbering inside of him. So close in fact that when I first read PoA, I was sure that Sirius was not as Black as painted. The evidence pointed towards the fact that Lupin knew more than he said, and if Lupin knew, then Sirius could not be wrong. So I guess I hold on to the belief that Lupin is not evil mainly because I sincerely hope I am not doomed to follow the biggest bully in the playground myself. Olivier From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 09:44:56 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:44:56 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Right now, I can't remeber one instance where Trelawney has used a > wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned > she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene or > find it in the books. Once you asked that I really had to think If I have ever seen her with a wand, but I did stumble across this: OOP p.594 Professor Trelawny was standing in the middle of the entrance hall with her wand in one hand and an empty sherry bottle in the other. Now I know it doesnt say anything about her using any magic, but why would she have her wand out? I am going to look for more stuff this evening when I get home from work :P Jacqui From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 09:47:46 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:47:46 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets same as Room of requirement. Was: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101322 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > snip. > > > Pippin > > who notes that the Chamber of Secrets, like the Room of > > Requirement, was able to provide Harry with what he needed. > > Maybe Tom only found a basilisk and a gigantic statue of > > Slytherin in the Chamber because he wanted to. > > > Pippin, your reading of canon is one of the most original and unusual > on the list. > > This is interesting. So, does it mean that Salsar never left Basilisk > at school, but Chamber of Secrets just conjured one according to > tom's wishes and it stayed there for fifty years? > > > > Curious, very curious. :o) > That is an interesting point, but I believe the Room of Requirement is a stationary room. When Fred & George first see the room the are surprised that it is now the DA room, when they saw it it was a a broom closet. Dobby has also used it, that is how he showed Harry. The Chamber of Secrets was opened through Moaning Murtle's bathroom. Jacqui > > Alla From Lynx412 at AOL.com Tue Jun 15 11:18:33 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:18:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: <3b.48b1303f.2e003509@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101323 In a message dated 6/15/2004 2:40:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jodel at aol.com writes: > (Don't forget that the whole series *started* from Vernon Dursley's PoV. It > may very well end there.) Ow. That just led to a disturbing theory for Harry fans. IIRC, JKR has said that the last word in the 7th book is scar. Add this 'end with Vernon' theory and...the Dursleys at Harry's funeral with Vernon thinking 'at least the hid his scar' Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jun 15 11:09:47 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:09:47 -0400 Subject: Mechanics of Broom Flight Message-ID: <40CED8FB.9010908@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101324 How does one operate a broom? I imagine that they are steered much in the same way you steer a motorcycle--by leaning. In the movies (sorry) Harry is seen to pull up on the stick to slow down, much as you would a horse but why doesn't the broom go ballistic like a jet? How does it know you want to slow down instead of changing altitude/attitude? How would you increase your broom speed? Jem From nansense at cts.com Tue Jun 15 11:48:14 2004 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:48:14 -0000 Subject: Psychoanalysis of CoS revisted (with Occlumency) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ivogun" wrote: > I was a literature major, and it seems= > very clear to me that some of the images in CoS (and other books) are sexual in nature. < Blush> I am somewhat old fashioned, but I have been taught to make connections! > > Barbara (Ivogun), who can't believe she wrote this post Hello, Ivogun~ I was a lit major as well, so I always notice this sort of stuff (A considerable dose of Freud was a requirement for pretty much every one of the undergrads at my university). My point is: you are not alone. So, such observations aren't embarrassing for me to notice and communicate. my concerns lie more in the direction of possibly offending others on the list (this group is far more constrained and rule bound and regulating than other internet groups i'm in, such as Six Feet Under). After the initial shock (some twenty yrs ago) of seeing the overabundance o= f phallocentric imagery just about everywhere one looks, I got over the shame= . Rather I find it's all just woven into my critical consciousness somewhat seemlessly. Thought you might be interested in a line from a movie review of PoA that plays with that paradigm: www.villagevoice.com/issues/0422/atkinson1.php to quote the reviewer article entitled The wizard of id: Orgasmic spells and naughty wand usage : As Aleister Crowley always said, sex is magic and vice versa?that is why J.K. Rowling's apprentice sorcerers are so heavily regulated in thei= r wand usage, and have their magical loins flexed harmlessly in sports, until= such time as they can control their own transformative impulses. This observation seems Very, Very tied to the books as well. Keep making those connections~ madeyemood From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 12:08:11 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:08:11 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101326 Alla wrote : > Are you saying that Harry should pretend that he respects Snape out > of fear of being punished? Del replies : Funny :-) That seems to be a horrible concept to you, but it never bothered me. I take it as one of the rules of the Life Game : He who has the power gets the respect - or the appearance of it ;-) If someone has power over me, then I will show them respect, no matter whether they earned it or not. If I have power over someone, I expect them to show me respect. It is perfectly hypocritical, I grant you that, but the point is : it works. If you give respect to people, they are much more inclined to give you what you want. So yes, if I were in Harry's shoes, I'd try and show respect to Snape, just to get him off my back. I did that with some nasty teachers or coworkers, and it worked remarkably well. We didn't end up loving each other, but at least we were civil towards each other. Which is much more than can be said of Harry and Snape's relationship. Del (and just in case you're wondering : no, I'm not nasty with whoever doesn't have power over me :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 12:12:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:12:53 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101327 snip > > Pippin: > > It is a secret. Sirius does not know, in GoF, that Snape was a DE. > > In fact, he can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire > > him if that were the case. (chapter 27, GoF) > > Mel: > Which is really something when you realize he's been incarcerated AS > a DE, *with* DEs for TWELVE YEARS. Now that's just odd. > He's heard NOTHING about Snape? > Not even how that weasel slipped out of facing his charges...or how > that snake pulled the wool over everyone's eyes...? Nothing? Either > it's a BIG DARK SECRET all wrapped up in some magical-wizarding bow > or Sirius Black is really, really dumb. Potioncat: It has always seemed odd to me that Sirius talks about the DE's grumbling about Pettigrew, yet he never heard anything about Snape. Also, that no one else ever heard them talking about Pettigrew. Of course the Dementors probably didn't care. > snip x > Mel: > My theory as to why Snape's cover is intact is because his > public 'outing' actually bought him credibility in both camps. The > DE's all think he managed to pull the wool over Dumbledore's eyes > and the Ministry takes Dumbledore at his word. Of course getting to blame Karkaroff for anyone Snape turned over is icing on the cake, innit? > x Potioncat: I never thought of that. And it sort of explains why Snape doesn't seem to begrudge Karkaroff for naming him...assuming Snape knows. This is the sort of Post I most enjoy, where something new comes out of familiar material. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 12:25:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:25:12 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House: DE's and others In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101328 > > imamommy > who wonders if the sorting hat shouldn't have chucked Percy Weasley in > Slytherin Potioncat: Yes, he'd be a good Slytherin (that could have two meanings) But the Weasley twins would have fit here too. And I think both DD and Hermione have some strong Slytherin traits. Potioncat From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 15 12:27:49 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:27:49 -0000 Subject: Draco's Intent (was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" < arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote: > Ah, but would a couple of teenagers dressed in a sheet believe that they > would have the same mental effect on Harry as a real Dementor? Unlikely. > So far as I can see, they know Harry passed out in the Express in the > presence of a Dementor, but do not necessarily appreciate just how > much more intensely Harry was affected by, let's call it the creatures > mental field. > > I've always read this passage as an attempt at distracting Harry, maybe > even hoping he'd fly away from the Quidditch grounds. Then would come > the jeering - "Yah! Frightened of a piece of cloth!" But it backfired, it wasn't > the sight of a Dementor that affected Harry, it was the mental effects. > And since there weren't any mental effects it couldn't work.> Sorry to respond so late to this, but I only have access to the list at work. My computer at home is fried. What makes Draco's behavior so reprehensible here to me is not even so much that he hopes Harry will faint, but that he has no respect or sympathy for what other kids might be going through. He couldn't care less that the Dementors cause Harry a great deal of anguish; he wants to make it all a big joke. He shows the same apathy towards the Weasleys' financial situation and Hermione's Muggle heritage. He's petty and malicious. Of course, he conveniently forgot that he was terrified of them himself, but that's what makes him such a shmuck. And to think I used to defend him! --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************************************ From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 12:28:25 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040615122825.38254.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101330 Geoff Bannister wrote: Geoff: Can I ask a clarification for UK readers? Can I assume that "electives" are what we would call "options", i.e. the choices we make at Year 10 (the old Fourth Year) of subjects we are taking to GCSE level? And which year is the "junior year" of High School? Ta! akh: US high school students have required courses (English, math, science) and electives (foreign language, drama, journalism). Back in the ancient days (late '60s, early '70s when I was in high school), we were told in 8th grade, equivalent to grade 3, I think, what was required to graduate from high school, and what options we had. Those of use perceived to be on the "college track" were advised to take the maximum amount of English, a foreign language and high-level math. However, it wasn't until our Junior year (6th year of 7 or 11th year of 12, whichever system you use) that we had advisors talking to us about specific majors in college and what universities would fit us best. It appears, from the conversation in CoS as Harry and Ron discuss their courses for third year (pp 186, 187, UK paperback), that they are given the required courses but then have free choice of the options. Those from the WW also get advice from their families, if not from the faculty. akh, who's determined to be a red-head by 8:00 a.m. CDT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 15 12:34:59 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:34:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <3b.48b1303f.2e003509@aol.com> References: <3b.48b1303f.2e003509@aol.com> Message-ID: <40CEECF3.7040700@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101331 > jodel at aol.com wrote: > > >>(Don't forget that the whole series *started* from Vernon Dursley's PoV. It >>may very well end there.) > >Lynx412 at AOL.com wrote: > Ow. That just led to a disturbing theory for Harry fans. IIRC, JKR has > said that the last word in the 7th book is scar. Add this 'end with Vernon' > theory and...the Dursleys at Harry's funeral with Vernon thinking 'at least the > hid his scar' > > Cheryl > LOL! That would be a terrible way to have the ending fit! But I doubt it is going to happen that way, because open casket funerals are exceeding rare in the UK, at least in the muggle world. Default practise is a closed coffin and at no point do you see the body during the ceremony. If you want to view the body and say your goodbyes to it you normally have to make an appointment to visit the funeral parlour or "Chapel of Rest" before the internment or cremation. Of course things may be different in the WW. I'm sure it would be much easier to preserve the body temporarily with a charm than with formaldehyde or whatever muggle morticians use. While we are on the subject of death and mortality (hee hee) I'm sure the reason we are going to encounter a graveyard at Hogwarts sometime is when Dumbledore finally expires in some noble manner. Where else would DD get interred but there? "digger" From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 12:46:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:46:43 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101332 Jacqui wrote: > OOP p.594 > Professor Trelawny was standing in the middle of the entrance hall > with her wand in one hand and an empty sherry bottle in the other. > > Now I know it doesnt say anything about her using any magic, but why > would she have her wand out? I am going to look for more stuff this > evening when I get home from work :P > Potioncat: To summond another bottle of sherry, of course! IIRC this thread was started to ask if Trelawney was the one to learn magic late in life, but she is already considered a witch and that means she already does magic. IMO, it will be a Muggle or a Squib who learns magic. Potioncat From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 12:46:32 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:46:32 -0000 Subject: Draco's Intent (was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101333 Jenny: > What makes Draco's behavior so reprehensible here to me is not even so much that he hopes Harry will faint, but that he has no respect or sympathy > for what other kids might be going through. He couldn't care less that the Dementors cause Harry a great deal of anguish; he wants to make it all a big joke. He shows the same apathy towards the Weasleys' financial situation > and Hermione's Muggle heritage. He's petty and malicious. > Of course, he conveniently forgot that he was terrified of them himself, but that's what makes him such a shmuck. > Thank you, Jenny. I stand by my "attempted murder" comment. It isn't that difficult an argument, really. The entire school had witnessed Harry fall off his broom the last time the dementors came along. D-Dore had to save him from being injured or killed and the many of the kids say, "We thought you had died." Draco was clearly hoping for a repeat performance with his little stunt. Perhaps he hadn't thought the matter all the way through. I'll give him that, mainly because I also give Sirius that same benefit of the doubt when it comes to the Shrieking Shack prank. But in the end, like Sirius, Draco's behavior was incredibly reckless and malicious. I find that little punk indefensible. Darrin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 12:53:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:53:18 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101334 Pippin wrote: > I am sure there are some I've missed. But Harry for the most part > doesn't realize that Snape, far more than Sirius, has always > been there to protect him. He only thinks that Snape is ruining > his fun and trying to get him punished, never thinking that Snape > might be using the threat of punishment to get Harry to behave > with a little more concern for his own safety. > > It takes Lupin to make Harry see that he's being careless with > his parents' sacrifice by needlessly risking his life. SSSusan: I've tried to follow this thread to its conclusion, but I'm woefully behind and so hope I'm not stepping on toes. It's been interesting to consider the dozen or so incidences that Pippin put forth as times Snape's saved Harry...as well as others' responses to those. I don't agree that everything on Pippin's list was truly Snape watching out for Harry, but I *do* think she's right that he has saved Harry's behind more than once and that Harry has a blind spot for recognizing it. What I've been surprised people didn't pick up on much was the beginning of the 2nd paragraph I've snipped, above. "It took Lupin to make Harry see that he's being careless with his parents' sacrifice...." To me this comment makes an eloquent case for an argument I've tried to make many times before: Snape's methods with Harry DO NOT WORK. Who's to blame for that? Both of them, in turns, though, yes, I blame Snape more since he approached Harry w/ derisiveness & loathing from the get-go *and* he's a teacher. If Snape hadn't been such an ass w/ Harry from the first moment, if he'd done ANYTHING to give Harry a sign that he actually had a concern for his well-being or his success as a student, Harry might have been able to see all Snape was doing. Really, though, that's another post. What I wanted to bring up is this question: WHY is Lupin successful in reaching Harry, in showing him how rashly and stupidly he was behaving, roaming around the castle in the darkness when Sirius Black was on the loose? Because Harry had already come to TRUST Lupin. Lupin had been kind to Harry; Lupin had complimented Harry's parents; Lupin had shown an interest in Harry. Whether it's "in him" or not for Snape to have shown any kind of overt concern for Harry has been debated here ad nauseum. He might not be able to be truly kind to Harry--or INTERESTED in such a thing- -but the fact that Harry LISTENS to Lupin when he's being reprimanded and brought down a notch says something: THIS is the way to reach Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Tue Jun 15 13:11:17 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:11:17 +0200 Subject: Expecto Patronum was Psychoanalysis of CoS revisited Message-ID: <7CC210AE-BECD-11D8-9DB5-000A95665DE8@m4x.org> No: HPFGUIDX 101335 Anyway I do think adds > another > dimension to that occlumency lesson disaster that Harry had with Snape. It'= > s hard to > imagine anyone who would be a worse candidate than Snape for giving Harry f= > atherly > advise on sex (and on one level that is what it is involved.) Fro= > m what we glean > from Snape's pensieve, we learn how bad an idea that this is. Poor Harry. > > Barbara (Ivogun), who can't believe she wrote this post Now Olivier Exactly! And you spotted that well on time too Barbara. In the midst of a huge confrontation about wether Harry, Sirius or Snape is the worst person and if they are morally equivalent, I really think that this perspective is enlightening. I intended to write a post on that somewhat later next week, but here are some thoughts. Suppose we admit for now that at least some magic is metaphorically tied to sex in the books, then we can understand what's going on symbolically in PoA (and later during the Occlumency lesson). PoA can be read as the endeavors of a teen to understand his masculine identity. In order to do so, he must overcome his childhood fears (the boggart), accept to move forward and not to be seduced by the regressive forces of self-destruction (Dementors) but most important, he must find a model, a father, a patron (Expecto Patronum revisited). PoA offers 4 possible patron: James, Sirius Black, Remus Lupin and Severus Snape. Each represents a distinct aspect of fatherhood and each has therefore his own particular traits. Ultimately, Harry chooses James because he has realized through the book that none of the others fulfill his needs. Sirius is wild sex-force (something JKR herself said on her site) while Remus is uncontrolled psyche (via the werewolf persona). So those two are not acceptable (though Remus, by providing Harry the means of finding an ideal father figure, plays a significant role). What about Snape then? I argue that Snape represents the repressed aspects of sexuality. Hence his bat-like attitude, his association with dark, creepy dungeon, his "vampire" persona. That could also shed a new light on his role as "potion" master and the fact that he is Neville's boggart (honestly, a mean teacher Neville's worst fear? Not the Lestranges or Voldemort?) And that could explain also why Snape can provoke such different reactions: some see him as sexy, other as abominable... I would venture the guess that those different reactions are reflections of the different feelings readers feel when confronted with the theme of repressed (or repressive) sexuality. But I promise I will expand on that in a forthcoming post devoted to PoA. Coming back to the Occlumency lessons, there is a powerful psychoanalytic feel to the scenes. The master of repressive sexuality exploring the mind and memories (particularly traumatic ones) of the young hero. And of course, Snape finds Cho. Conversely, when Harry enters Snape's mind, he finds dysfunctional love and a girl mocking our Severus. Not to mention the Pensieve scene. Now, the Occlumency lessons failed and that caused Sirius death. What a better way to say that failure to control sexuality and trying to repress it leads to wild sex-force (in itself neither positive nor negative) turing into death-force or desire for violence. Note that Sirius is killed by Bellatrix, the icon of Eros/Thanatos. I am sorry to speak so quickly of themes that would require careful canon examination and references. I promise I will soon do so. For now, I will conclude by saying that if one accepts this reading (Occlumency lessons are repressed sexuality turning Sirius sex forces into Bellatrix death drive), then the question of who was responsible for Sirius' death and if Harry should have apologized to Snape or the contrary become rather meaningless. It can be fun to argue though. Olivier From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 13:02:17 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:02:17 -0000 Subject: How the hat makes its selections Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101336 I've seen some posts lately pointing out that Hermione, Percy, even Dumbledore, have Slytherin qualities. We know that Harry has some, though I believe his near-placement in Slytherin was as much because of Essence of Voldemort in his head than his character traits. And, to get away from the endless Slyth-Gryff debates, we know that Hermione nearly ended up in Ravenclaw and there have been questions in the past - many moons ago on the list - about whether Neville should have been in Hufflepuff. To start, almost all the characters were know something about have traits that could make them eligible for at least two houses. Which makes sense. The "shorthand" descriptions of the houses apply to a great deal of people, in the Wizard World and in real life. Brave, smart, hard-working, ambitious. Successful people, it can be argued, display all four. I was discussing this with my lovely girlfriend the other day and we came to the conclusion that the student's "choice" in the matter have to do with what he or she values. Here are some clues: Draco, who is under the hat for about .4 seconds before it says "Slytherin," clearly wants to prove himself to his father. Ambition and cunning are the most important to him. Though I would argue that Draco is the one character who I couldn't see in any other house. He's not loyal, not hard-working, not all that brave and his intelligence is debatable. Hermione, who's smarts make her a natural born Ravenclaw, values bravery above "books and cleverness." She says so in SS/PS, just before Harry goes off alone to face Quirrellmort. So, she's in Gryff. Neville, who's loyalty and hard work give him Hufflepuff qualities, also seems to secretly value courage and is filled with a burning desire to live up to his folks. Gryff. Harry, who seemingly only wants to stay out of Slytherin, is making a reverse value judgement. He sees Draco and wants the opposite. Gryff. Percy. This is the one that bothers me the most because the hat, seemingly, got it wrong. Obviously, an 11-year-old Percy had a different view on life than the one we see now. But I submit that his story isn't finished yet. He may show us what made him a Gryff to begin with. Family lines obviously count for something, although the Patil sisters prove it's not ironclad. But in the end, what the kids value is as important as what seems to be their dominant trait. Darrin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 13:05:08 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:05:08 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101337 > Potioncat: > To summond another bottle of sherry, of course! > IIRC this thread was started to ask if Trelawney was the one to > learn magic late in life, but she is already considered a witch and > that means she already does magic. IMO, it will be a Muggle or a > Squib who learns magic. Jen: Do we know she's a witch or just surmise that? That's what I'm wondering. She wouldn't necessarily be the one to perform magic late in life, but that discussion started me wondering when we've actually seen her perform magic. Perhaps it's just a detail lost in all the other more important aspects of the book. Of course, I'm not certain we've seen Prof. Sprout do anything with a wand, either. Maybe that's why they went into the professions they did, because less magic was required and that wasn't their forte Although I'm not sure Divination is Trelawney's forte, either, but she is a Prophecy channeller--that's something to her name. Thanks for the canon from OOTP, Jacqui! I'm looking too. At least we know Trelawney owns a wand. From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 13:14:15 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:14:15 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101338 > > To me this comment makes an eloquent case for an argument I've tried to make many times before: Snape's methods with Harry DO NOT WORK. > Who's to blame for that? Both of them, in turns, though, yes, I > blame Snape more since he approached Harry w/ derisiveness & > loathing from the get-go *and* he's a teacher. If Snape hadn't been such an ass w/ Harry from the first moment, if he'd done ANYTHING to give Harry a sign that he actually had a concern for his well-being or his success as a student, Harry might have been able to see all Snape was doing. > Harry knows, though he seems skeptical, from D-Dore that Snape was trying to save him, but the reasons were: "so he could hate your father's memory in peace." Yes, that would just FILL me with confidence, had I heard that. :) > Really, though, that's another post. What I wanted to bring up is > this question: WHY is Lupin successful in reaching Harry, in > showing him how rashly and stupidly he was behaving, roaming around > the castle in the darkness when Sirius Black was on the loose? > Because Harry had already come to TRUST Lupin. Lupin had been kind > to Harry; Lupin had complimented Harry's parents; Lupin had shown an interest in Harry. > Both Lupin and Snape have been asked to give Harry extra lessons. It would not surprise me if D-Dore was made aware of, and approved of, the Dementor lessons in PoA. We see how both of those turned out. > Whether it's "in him" or not for Snape to have shown any kind of > overt concern for Harry has been debated here ad nauseum. He might > not be able to be truly kind to Harry--or INTERESTED in such a thing-> -but the fact that Harry LISTENS to Lupin when he's being > reprimanded and brought down a notch says something: THIS is the > way to reach Harry. Snape's approach was to fall back on his old chestnut: "You arrogant little boy, can't you see what good I'm doing for you! Bow down before me!" After three years of that, I'd be shocked if Harry was paying attention. And why should he? He's probably thinking, "Snape's going off on me again. Let's just nod my head until he stops yapping." Lupin's approach was to hit Harry where he lived, with the death of his parents. Snape said, essentially, that Harry failed HIM, which is useless, since Harry could give a damn about Snape. But Lupin said that Harry failed his parents, which made Harry sick to his stomach. Harry, like anyone, has people he cares about. Approach him through them, and you've got a winner. Snape COULD get through to Harry if he analyzed the situation. Snape could easily have said, "Your parents died for you. Pity this is what they died for." (Man, I can hear that coming from his mouth) Snape has hit Harry hard before, with comments about James. Unfortunately, rational analysis flies out the window for Snape when he deals with Harry. Darrin -- had to respond to a screen name with Cubfan in it. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 15 13:20:15 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:20:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101339 * Gina : You are right. I was thinking LV said it. Oh well I tried. Sarah (me): But wait! You are right, Harry got it from Voldemort's speech a few paragraphs earlier: '"And now you face me, like a man . . . straight-backed and proud, the way your father died. . . . "And now - we duel."' Sarah * * * Great! Thanks Sara! I am trying my best to piece together what happened there that night at GH. We know that Lily was there and Harry hears her, but I do not think the man he heard was James! Because PoA when Harry tells Lupin he heard Lily he does not say anything but when he says he heard his father Lupin asks in a "strange" voice, "You heard James?" * To me this sounds like Lupin knows that James was not there or at least that he was not the one that told Lily to run. Obviously from this passage we know that James was killed by LV but when and where? If he was not there - who was? Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 13:26:15 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:26:15 -0000 Subject: How the hat makes its selections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101340 Darrin: > Percy. This is the one that bothers me the most because the hat, > seemingly, got it wrong. Obviously, an 11-year-old Percy had a > different view on life than the one we see now. > > But I submit that his story isn't finished yet. He may show us what > made him a Gryff to begin with. Jen: Nice analysis of the hat, Darrin. Re: Percy. Even if we don't agree with the choice he made or the way he handled things, I think he showed some courage to walk away from his family and go out on his own. It's hard to leave a close-knit family, especially when you have parents with strongly-held beliefs. If we use Dumbledore's criteria of choice-making, easy or right, I'd say Percy didn't do either. He made a wrong choice, but it was also a deliberate choice, with a price to pay that he accepted up-front. Now, can he show courage and admit he was wrong? It also takes a brave soul to apologize when mistakes were made. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 13:28:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:28:47 -0000 Subject: Rules of Respect was Re:Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101341 > Alla wrote : > > Are you saying that Harry should pretend that he respects Snape out > > of fear of being punished? > > Del replies : > Funny :-) That seems to be a horrible concept to you, but it never > bothered me. I take it as one of the rules of the Life Game : He who > has the power gets the respect - or the appearance of it ;-) Potioncat: This is the second time I've seen a "respect" thread. (I'll bet others have seen a few more!) And it does surprise me a little. It wasn't really that long ago (was it?) that children were expected to respect their elders. Not liking them was no excuse. That the elders were mean was no excuse. That they might be wrong was no excuse. Disagreements could happen if handled respectfully although, certainly, most children couldn't manage an argument of any sort with a grownup. Going back to year one, day one of Potions, according to this set of rules, it was Harry who was in the wrong, not Snape. He was indeed, mouthing off and it doesn't matter that Snape was being mean at the time. Does Harry have to feel respect for Snape? No. Does he have to demonstrate respect towards a teacher? Yes. Now, in a better world, if Harry was having this problem with Snape he could go to someone for help. According to the rules, the child had to be respectful, but a parent/teacher could help him deal with an obnoxious adult in an acceptable manner. Also, in those days, children always addressed adults as "sir" and "ma'am." and it was not at all unusual for a parent to gently remind a child who forgot to use the honorific. Or to firmly remind a child who chose not to use it. So in my mind, it was not at all inappropriate for Snape to remind Harry to call him "sir," during Occlumency lessons. Now, if the issue is: does Snape have the right to treat Harry the way he does, that would be a different post! Potioncat From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 15 13:55:25 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:55:25 -0000 Subject: List debates (was Draco's Intent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101342 Darrin wrote: > I stand by my "attempted murder" comment. It isn't that difficult an > argument, really. I agree the argument is simple enough. Draco believed that the effect of the Dementors was, in effect, psychosomatic, so that if Harry *believed* he was witnessing a Dementor that would be sufficient to make him faint and fall off his broom. As canon evidence for this view you can cite some of Draco's taunting which gives the impression that Draco believes Harry faints from ordinary fear. > Draco was clearly hoping for a repeat performance with his little > stunt. Well, that word 'clearly' is the crux of this matter. But first let me go back to what I think Kneasy and Pippin are saying. As I understand it, their argument is that Draco would have understood well enough that the Dementors' effect on Harry is magical, and that therefore Harry would at most be distracted by Draco's act. As canon evidence they can cite the participation of one of the senior Slytherin Quidditch team members, who would be presumed to understand this, as well as the supposition of some elementary foresight on Draco's part that he would be drastically punished if Harry were injured. (My own position is neither of these: I tend to the view that Draco was criminally stupid. If you had asked him beforehand what he thought would happen he'd probably look blank, IMO, and if you taxed him with the possibility that Harry would fall he'd shrug and say 'Yeah, maybe, that'd be cool, wouldn't it? Who cares? We'll have great fun making a fool of famous Harry Potter, won't we?' My canon support for this is that Draco 'clearly' hadn't thought about the fact that there were teachers present, who could be relied upon to enforce school discipline and punish him.) > Perhaps he hadn't thought the matter all the way through. I agree. I'll give > him that, mainly because I also give Sirius that same benefit of the > doubt when it comes to the Shrieking Shack prank. Now this makes no sense to me at all. If you truly consider there is some doubt as to the nature and extent of Draco's planning, then Sirius is irrelevant. The cases may be parallel, and the parallel may be of literary interest, but neither throws any light on the interpretation of the other, IMO. > But in the end, like Sirius, Draco's behavior was incredibly reckless > and malicious. > > I find that little punk indefensible. My point here is that we are not really in the business of defending or accusing Draco. I have pointed out how different aspects of the canon may lead one to different interpretations of Draco's motivation and expectations of the outcome. But if I choose an aspect that lets Draco off the hook, that's not defending him, it's describing a slightly different Draco. All one can say, I think, is something like 'on my understanding of canon, Draco intended Harry's death or serious injury. I find such behaviour indefensible.' Another list member might then say 'my reading is that he intended no harm to Harry beyond embarrassment and loss of a Quidditch match. Such behaviour is, in my view, reprehensible, but not unusual in teenage children.' All you can each do is cite canon support for your interpretation and hope that your co-debaters will be enlightened, while at the same time seking such enlightenment for yourself. Of course, if somebody said 'I think canon supports the view that Draco intended to Harry to die. But hey, that's kids for you - Draco's just being a bit exuberant and we love him for it,' you might well be justified in being a little surprised, and worried about letting that list member look after your own children, should such be a possibility. However, in the first place, I don't believe anyone here has come remotely close to expressing such an opinion, and secondly, even if they did, we would still have to accept it as a valid reader response to the text. Finally, it is of course possible that some list members have decided that they like Draco, for whatever reason, for example because they are cissies who like to undermine red-blooded American values, and then find canon doesn't support the interpretation they like. They might then go back and re-interpret much of the detail until they have a picture they feel is consistent with their liking for Draco, yet morally acceptable on the list generally. They would then be rather resistant to interpretations that paint Draco in a bad light. It's certainly possible. But, y'know, if people want to do that, it's fine with me. We can interpret the words of the books how we like here. It's probably a bad idea to try and call them on it, though. My feeling is that that would be poor netiquette. Please correct me if I'm wrong. David From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 14:10:15 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:10:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c452e2$7bbc48c0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 101343 Geoff: Can I ask a clarification for UK readers? Can I assume that "electives" are what we would call "options", i.e. the choices we make at Year 10 (the old Fourth Year) of subjects we are taking to GCSE level? And which year is the "junior year" of High School? Ta! Sherry: Hi Geoff: Our junior year in high school is the second to last year. We have a 12-year system, starting with first grade--that sounded dumb the way I wrote it, didn't it?--depending on where a student goes to high school, it is either three years, 10-12, or 4, 9-12. So, the junior year is 11 out of 12. Sherry G From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 14:14:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:14:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101344 > SSSusan wrote: >>snip<< I don't agree that everything on Pippin's list > was truly Snape watching out for Harry, but I *do* think she's right > that he has saved Harry's behind more than once and that Harry has a > blind spot for recognizing it. > >>snip<< > To me this comment makes an eloquent case for an argument I've tried > to make many times before: Snape's methods with Harry DO NOT WORK. Who's to blame for that? Both of them, in turns, though, yes, I > blame Snape more since he approached Harry w/ derisiveness & > loathing from the get-go *and* he's a teacher. If Snape hadn't been > such an ass w/ Harry from the first moment, if he'd done ANYTHING to > give Harry a sign that he actually had a concern for his well- being > or his success as a student, Harry might have been able to see all > Snape was doing. >>snip<< > > Poioncat: Hi, SSSusan,good to see your posts again. As far the thread itself goes, I think, that some of us have debated issues from so many directions that we forget the original point of view. And some of us have had so much fun defending or attacking a character we forget that others may not know exactly where we get our hairbrained ideas. We're told even before the first Potions class that Snape favors Slytherins. Hagrid says Snape doesn't like any of the students. (I hope that isn't movie contamination.) He is mean. He is unfair. He is what he is. I'm not sure why DD tolerates it, but who can understand DD? However, we're plainly told about some efforts Snape made to help Harry. And some of us began to wonder if there were more. Then we started finding episodes in canon that could be taken different ways. Harry sees them as moments of cruelty, some of us see another possibility. Not because we think he has a wonderful way with kids, but because we know he's on the good side and we think he is looking out for Harry in his own way. And some of the incidents wouldn't be picked up if you weren't looking for them. One of my favorites is in GoF. Harry's trying to find DD and Snape appears out of DD's office and delays Harry and IIRC, taunts him. I think he even says DD is too busy. Then, DD appears from the same exit Snape came from and talks to Harry. IMHO, both Snape and DD knew Harry was there and Snape was keeping Harry there while DD finished what he was doing and came down. (I suspect he was gathering his thoughts from the pensieve.) I think Harry still thinks Snape was trying to keep him away from DD. Anyway, that's my take on it. Potioncat (Oh, SSSusan, the twins say hello.) ;-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 14:22:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:22:29 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101345 Jen wrote: > > Of course, I'm not certain we've seen Prof. Sprout do anything with > a wand, either. Maybe that's why they went into the professions they > did, because less magic was required and that wasn't their forte > Although I'm not sure Divination is Trelawney's forte, either, but > she is a Prophecy channeller--that's something to her name. > > Thanks for the canon from OOTP, Jacqui! I'm looking too. At least we > know Trelawney owns a wand. Potioncat: (paraphrasing) There's little foolish wand waving in this class, many of you won't understand this is magic. Uh, oh, if I'm not careful we'll start off another round of "which magic" is the best magic.... Potioncat From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 14:27:44 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:27:44 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Both Lupin and Snape have been asked to give Harry extra lessons. It > would not surprise me if D-Dore was made aware of, and approved of, > the Dementor lessons in PoA. > > We see how both of those turned out. Ah, yes. You have a point here. The problem is, as usual, when you look at the details it falls apart. Tell me just what intimately private information of Lupin's did Harry pry into? He didn't even know Lupin was a werewolf until Hermione TOLD him point blank even when the evidence was spelled out right in front of him in his own DADA assignment. (Of course if he put the same amount of care into Snape's DADA assignment as he did later into his Occlumencey lessons, despite DD's express instructions to 'do everything Professor Snape tells you to do!', one easily can see how he missed that.) Give me an example of how Harry practiced Snape's lessons with the same dedication and intensity as he did Lupin's. Need I go on? Mel From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 14:28:33 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:28:33 -0000 Subject: List debates (was Draco's Intent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101347 Dave: > > (My own position is neither of these: I tend to the view that Draco > was criminally stupid. If you had asked him beforehand what he > thought would happen he'd probably look blank, IMO, and if you taxed > him with the possibility that Harry would fall he'd shrug and > say 'Yeah, maybe, that'd be cool, wouldn't it? Who cares? We'll > have great fun making a fool of famous Harry Potter, won't we?' My > canon support for this is that Draco 'clearly' hadn't thought about > the fact that there were teachers present, who could be relied upon > to enforce school discipline and punish him.) My own feeling is that Draco believed Harry would fall and he and the Slyths would be able to get away to ditch the robes in all the confusion. I believe some elementary planning was involved. Draco is clever enough to have had an exit strategy here, which of course was foiled when he saw a silver stag coming at him. :) I think Draco's words and actions in previous cases matter here. "I hope that mudblood Granger dies." "Enemies of the Heir beware. You'll be next, mudbloods." This is a kid that talks freely and openly of murder and death. I grant this could be nothing more than big talk, but I think the kid's mind works a little too violently to just stop at distractions, taunting and sabotaging a Quidditch match. > I'll give > > him that, mainly because I also give Sirius that same benefit of > the > > doubt when it comes to the Shrieking Shack prank. > > Now this makes no sense to me at all. If you truly consider there > is some doubt as to the nature and extent of Draco's planning, then > Sirius is irrelevant. The cases may be parallel, and the parallel > may be of literary interest, but neither throws any light on the > interpretation of the other, IMO. I put it out there not mainly as a comparison of the two, but to defend myself against taunts of hypocrisy. I DO see a correlation. Sirius was way, way, way over the line with the Shrieking Shack prank, but I do not believe he thought the matter all the way through. And I also believe Sirius changed enough to regret it, no matter what bravado he gave in the Shrieking Shack in PoA. I merely meant to allow that Draco could, someday, have the same second thoughts, though my own feeling is that he won't. > All one can say, I think, is something like 'on my understanding of > canon, Draco intended Harry's death or serious injury. I find such > behaviour indefensible.' Another list member might then say 'my > reading is that he intended no harm to Harry beyond embarrassment > and loss of a Quidditch match. Such behaviour is, in my view, > reprehensible, but not unusual in teenage children.' All you can > each do is cite canon support for your interpretation and hope that > your co-debaters will be enlightened, while at the same time seking > such enlightenment for yourself. My exact words were that "I find the little punk (Draco) indefensible." I believe such "in my view," or "in my opinion" or "my interpretation" that you seem to be looking for is inherent in such a statement. "I find..." I also think such statements are inherent in almost every single post out here, which is perhaps why I do not use them as clearly as my fellow posters might like. Simply put, every post here is opinion, in one way or another. Some of it is better supported through canon, but in the end, it almost all boils down to point of view. Darrin From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 14:37:29 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:37:29 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote:> > As far the thread itself goes, I think, that some of us have debated > issues from so many directions that we forget the original point of > view. And some of us have had so much fun defending or attacking a > character we forget that others may not know exactly where we get > our hairbrained ideas. Mel: Great idea, let's review: PC: > We're told even before the first Potions class that Snape favors > Slytherins. Mel: Which is his JOB. "Your house is like your family" M. McGonnogal explaining the house system to 1st years. McGonnogal favors Gryffs *cough-nimbus2000-cough* just as I'm sure (although we don't see it) Flitwick has a softspot for Ravenclaws and Sprout tends to feel gushy towards her much-maligned Hufflepuffs. PC: Hagrid says Snape doesn't like any of the students. (I > hope that isn't movie contamination.) He is mean. He is unfair. > He is what he is. I'm not sure why DD tolerates it, but who can > understand DD? Mel: Which rather puts Harry's POV on trial, doesn't it. Oh he hates me. Well guess what. He's an equal opportunity student-hater. From book one. PC: > However, we're plainly told about some efforts Snape made to help > Harry. Mel: Which some still insist one negating. Boggles the mind, really. It's clear that at the end of PS/SS that If Nothing Else, JKR meant to overturn our view of Snape. PC: > One of my favorites is in GoF. Harry's trying to find DD and Snape > appears out of DD's office and delays Harry and IIRC, taunts him. Mel: I have to admit, out of all Snape's actions so far in all the books, this is the ONE time I've really wanted to slap him and tell him to get over himself. Not the tooth coment, certainly not the "Whoops" which had me ROFL, but this just tee-d me off no end. PC: > think he even says DD is too busy. Then, DD appears from the same > exit Snape came from and talks to Harry. IMHO, both Snape and DD > knew Harry was there and Snape was keeping Harry there while DD > finished what he was doing and came down. (I suspect he was > gathering his thoughts from the pensieve.) I think Harry still > thinks Snape was trying to keep him away from DD. Mel: Interesting. Maybe I'll hold back on the slap for a while and go back and re-read that with this in mind. From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 14:38:23 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:38:23 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101349 > Tell me just what intimately private information of Lupin's did > Harry pry into? He didn't even know Lupin was a werewolf until > Hermione TOLD him point blank even when the evidence was spelled out > right in front of him in his own DADA assignment. (Of course if he > put the same amount of care into Snape's DADA assignment as he did > later into his Occlumencey lessons, despite DD's express > instructions to 'do everything Professor Snape tells you to do!', > one easily can see how he missed that.) > 1) Hermione appears to be the ONLY student who actually did the werewolf lesson, so Harry's "sin" in omitting a lesson that was recanted as soon as Lupin returned was shared by the rest of the class as well. 2) Let us not let this discussion go by with a comment on how reprehensible it was for Snape to attempt to "out" his fellow teacher in that manner. (Later, he just blatantly does it.) Once again, Snape believes he knows better than Dumbledore. If he can't convince the Headmaster to fire Lupin, he will make Lupin's life intolerable. The werewolf as AIDS parallel has been drawn here. I use it to illustrate this argument. What if a teacher "outed" a gay colleague? Reprehensible. Now, onto the comparison. Again, it has to do with approaches. Harry was given a very clear goal in mind with the Patronus lessons. He had firsthand knowledge of what would happen if he failed -- he would be prey to the Dementors. Harry enters Occlumency with no clear reason why he is there, with condescension from the teacher, on the word of adults who have not been forthcoming with him and with some positive reinforcement the other direction (he saved Arthur's life) in his head. Later, he finds himself not getting better at Occlumency, but getting weaker. He has reason to suspect what is happening to him. Furthermore, when Harry failed on the first try, Lupin says, "I'd have been surprised had you gotten it." When Harry failed on the first try with Occlumency, a skill so rare it apparently extends to D-Dore and Snape at Hogwarts, Snape insults him. All this takes place well before Harry invades Snape's privacy. Lupin is a better teacher because he has more respect for his students. D-Dore himself says he made a mistake in matching Snape and Harry together. And he doesn't blame Harry for it, does he? He blames Snape and his inability to get over past scars. Darrin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 14:42:09 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:42:09 -0000 Subject: The Snape-Malfoy connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101350 I find it strange that Lucius Malfoy got off so easily after the first war, and with such an easy excuse either ("I was imperio'ed!" now gimme a brake. Why didn't all the other DEs use this excuse?). OK, so the man is rich and influential, and he gave a lot of gold to the Ministry, but I don't think this alone would have stopped the zealous Crouch Sr. (the man convicted his own son, after all). I also find it strange that in CoS, DD lets Lucius off so easily after it becomes clear Lucius was the one behind the diary plot. There wasn't evidence against him? So what? We all know how protective DD is about his students. Malfoy had also tried to remove DD from the headmaster position and almost succeeded. You'd think DD would have put some really nasty and untraceable jinx on him, just to teach him a good lesson, but as far as we know he didn't. So, here is my idea (with apologies to all the members who brought it up before): Snape knew Malfoy was a real DE. He had the evidence and could have turned Malfoy in after the first war. Malfoy knew that. But DD told Snape to lie to the Ministry and testify that Malfoy was under the Imperio, so Malfoy would be cleared. This convinced Malfoy that Snape is on his side. DD did it as an investment for the future and a start for building the Snape-Malfoy connection. So after LV's resurrection, Malfoy comes to Voldy (after Voldy had cooled down a bit) and tells him: "I know what you think about Snape, but he's our guy. He covered for me although he didn't have to". Voldy can see in Lucius' mind that Lucius speaks the truth, so he says: "fine, bring him here and I'll give him a chance". It is still up to Snape to give Voldy a good story and convince him, but the investment in the Malfoy connection had already paid off, and will likely be beneficial in the future also. If this is true, Lucius will soon "escape" from Azkaban or wherever he is held, so he can keep vouching for Snape and supply him with inside information. In fact, it will be probably Snape himself who will "rescue" Lucius from the aurors and let him out. It is just fitting that Lucius, who thinks he is smarter than everyone, will turn out to be the big dupe. As I think of it, perhaps Snape also cleared other DEs after the first war, such as Goyle, Crabbe and Macnair. All the brainless thugs. I mean, don't you find it strange that Snape has been working for 15 years now in Hogwarts for DD, and yet no DE in Azkaban (as far as Sirius could tell us) ever blames Snape for turning him in? They all blame Karkaroff. How comes? Because all of the DEs who knew Snape walk free, and for a good reason. Neri From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 15 14:45:07 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:45:07 -0000 Subject: List debates (was Draco's Intent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I think Draco's words and actions in previous cases matter here. > > "I hope that mudblood Granger dies." > > "Enemies of the Heir beware. You'll be next, mudbloods." > > This is a kid that talks freely and openly of murder and death. I grant this could be nothing more than big talk, but I think the kid's mind works a little too violently to just stop at distractions, taunting and sabotaging a Quidditch match.> I'm about to slightly disagree with my sweetie here, but I know he can handle it. :-) Yes, Draco *does* talk openly of murder, death and hatred, but I think he's far more all talk than serious. He may well become a murderer, but he is far from one now. That's why I think he didn't understand the possible ramifications of the prank he tried (and so miserably failed) to play on Harry. Draco shows no understanding of others' suffering. Hey, if I was a DE, I wouldn't want him in *my* inner circle. Remember, we've seen far more cowardice on Draco's part than any real active cruelty. He hurls words at his classmates and then runs and hids behind his father's robes. What a punk. Maybe now that his father is in Azkaban he'll open his eyes. --jenny from ravenclaw, who *knows* Draco has nothing on Harry and never will ************************************************************************************ From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 14:53:46 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:53:46 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > 1) Hermione appears to be the ONLY student who actually did the werewolf > lesson, so Harry's "sin" in omitting a lesson that was recanted as soon as > Lupin returned was shared by the rest of the class as well. > > 2) Let us not let this discussion go by with a comment on how reprehensible it > was for Snape to attempt to "out" his fellow teacher in that manner. (Later, he > just blatantly does it.) Mel: You didn't answer the questions. Attempts at distraction will win you no points. 1. Tell me just what intimately private information of Lupin's did > > Harry pry into? The fact that Harry didn't DO his homework is not a very good excuse, it rather goes to my point. Darrin: 2) Let us not let this discussion go by with a comment on how reprehensible it was for Snape to attempt to "out" his fellow teacher in that manner. (Later, he just blatantly does it.) Mel: Irrelevant to this conversation. No one is denying that Snape outed Lupin, but it's got nothing to do with this. I disagree with you that Harry had no 'goal' in beginning Occlumency lessons. I've heard this argument before and it never washes. I used the same one trying to get out of Algebra and it didn't work then, either. (I could be snarky here and say he had a goal of not learning it because it was Snape). He was instructed clearly by DUMBLEDORE to pay attention, work hard and do everything his teacher told him to do. When he whined about it this assertion was backed up by..OH! Lupin! Whaddya know! Harry's goal was to LEARN OCCLUMENCY TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY. Harry's goal was to CLOSE HIS MIND FROM VOLDEMORT. That's what he was told by Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin. That should have been enough. Next you're going to claim he thought that the 'real' reason he was being made to learn Occlumency was to be found in Snape's Pensieve. Harry's had 5 years to get familiar with Snape's teaching style for better or worse. You'd think by now he'd have figured out he's not going to get a sweet every time he answers a question correctly. BTW, Dumbledore does not blame Snape for the lesson failures, he blames himself. Mel From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 14:59:48 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's subversive was Re: Reader response (was: Who is the adult) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040615145948.59836.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101354 potioncat wrote: Pippin wrote: > > Have we been shown members of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or > Hufflepuff who might respond to a gospel of hate? We have. As > for the Chamber of Secrets, the Room of Requirement is just as > scary. Wonder what would happen if you went in there and > asked for a library of Dark Arts manuals and a monster that > would obey your commands? > Potioncat: Whoa! And I thought Cuaron made Hogwarts seem creepy! (Sorry for the one liner, but Pippin has come up with a very good and very scary thought!) I love the way this thread is going. We have been told that the last two books will be very dark (do not have the quotes). This would feed right into the whole idea. We are of the assumption that: 1) Hogwarts is just a building. Actually, it is one of the magical items that thinks for itself 2) Chamber of Secrets and Room of Requirement are two different rooms. I think that they are the same. TR NEEDED a way to gain power over his circumstances. HP NEEDED to find Ginny. TR NEEDED a monster. HP NEEDED assistance. We keep skirting around the actual main character of this whole series - Hogwarts itself!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bufo_viridis at interia.pl Tue Jun 15 15:00:15 2004 From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bviridis) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:00:15 -0000 Subject: How the hat makes its selections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I've seen some posts lately pointing out that Hermione, Percy, even > Dumbledore, have Slytherin qualities. We know that Harry has some, > though I believe his near-placement in Slytherin was as much because > of Essence of Voldemort in his head than his character traits. [snip] Viridis: I repost my FA post as it sums what I think about the subject: The Hat examines the personality traits, balances them and chooses. Now, how many eleven years old have good idea of their own potential? Very few. So if they were chosing their Houses, they would most probably go after parents advice or gossip, etc. If we were the students, looking through the boards, ratio would be something like this: G 50% - R 30% - S 15% - H 5%. This won't work well at all. Actually if it was not for rather prejudiced Hagrid's remark, Harry wouldn't oppose his Slytherin appointment so vehemently. > I was discussing this with my lovely girlfriend the other day and we > came to the conclusion that the student's "choice" in the matter >have to do with what he or she values. Yes, there is a bit of leeway between the Hat's original choice ant the final outcome. We don't know if Hat changes its opinion often or not. Now, let's see in what conditions it does? 1. Hat reverses his idea if a kid has strong enough will - which is not very common - to argue with the Voice of Authority Presented In Solemn and Stressfull Situation. E.g. I am pretty sure Neville didn't argue with Hat - so the Hat used his power to check his potential - definitely potential, not the abilities at the very time. Draco for sure didn't dispute the Hat, as he was sorted where he wanted. Second possibility is that he does not reverse his ideas as much as he uses kid's choice to topple the scales in very balanced situations. If (s)he fits well here or there, why not play long? It'll only makes the kid happier. So yes, we have such a Gryfinclaw as Hermione - the scales was toppled towards Gryffindor, but she also has Hufflepuff (loyalty, hard work) and Slytherin (can be quite cunning) qualities. Any attempt to sort humanity, even a sample, into just 4 groups, must end up wit rather fuzzy boundaries and many "mixed" cases. Hat also protects the children of being pushed into wrong Houses by parents, eager for their prodigy to follow their steps. But, since most of the personality traits are learnt from the parents, it's not surprising we have "House dynasties". Perce is undoubtedly a recipient of family pressure and breaking with them and standing up to them (even if for the wrong case) required balls, rather Gryffindorish trait. Cheers, Viridis > > Here are some clues: > > Draco, who is under the hat for about .4 seconds before it > says "Slytherin," clearly wants to prove himself to his father. > Ambition and cunning are the most important to him. Though I would > argue that Draco is the one character who I couldn't see in any other > house. He's not loyal, not hard-working, not all that brave and his > intelligence is debatable. > > Hermione, who's smarts make her a natural born Ravenclaw, values > bravery above "books and cleverness." She says so in SS/PS, just > before Harry goes off alone to face Quirrellmort. So, she's in Gryff. > > Neville, who's loyalty and hard work give him Hufflepuff qualities, > also seems to secretly value courage and is filled with a burning > desire to live up to his folks. Gryff. > > Harry, who seemingly only wants to stay out of Slytherin, is making a > reverse value judgement. He sees Draco and wants the opposite. Gryff. > > Percy. This is the one that bothers me the most because the hat, > seemingly, got it wrong. Obviously, an 11-year-old Percy had a > different view on life than the one we see now. > > But I submit that his story isn't finished yet. He may show us what > made him a Gryff to begin with. > > Family lines obviously count for something, although the Patil > sisters prove it's not ironclad. > > But in the end, what the kids value is as important as what seems to > be their dominant trait. > > Darrin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 15:03:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:03:47 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101356 SSSusan wrote: > >>snip<< > > I don't agree that everything on Pippin's list > > was truly Snape watching out for Harry, but I *do* think she's > > right that he has saved Harry's behind more than once and that > > Harry has a blind spot for recognizing it. > > > >>snip<< > > To me this comment makes an eloquent case for an argument I've > > tried to make many times before: Snape's methods with Harry DO > > NOT WORK. Who's to blame for that? Both of them, in turns, > > though, yes, I blame Snape more since he approached Harry w/ > > derisiveness & loathing from the get-go *and* he's a teacher. If > > Snape hadn't been such an ass w/ Harry from the first moment, if > > he'd done ANYTHING to give Harry a sign that he actually had a > > concern for his well-being or his success as a student, Harry > > might have been able to see all Snape was doing. > >>snip<< Poioncat: > Hi, SSSusan,good to see your posts again. > > As far the thread itself goes, I think, that some of us have > debated issues from so many directions that we forget the original > point of view. And some of us have had so much fun defending or > attacking a character we forget that others may not know exactly > where we get our hairbrained ideas. > > However, we're plainly told about some efforts Snape made to help > Harry. And some of us began to wonder if there were more. Then we > started finding episodes in canon that could be taken different > ways. Harry sees them as moments of cruelty, some of us see > another possibility. Not because we think he has a wonderful way > with kids, but because we know he's on the good side and we think > he is looking out for Harry in his own way. And some of the > incidents wouldn't be picked up if you weren't looking for them. > > One of my favorites is in GoF. Harry's trying to find DD and Snape > appears out of DD's office and delays Harry and IIRC, taunts him. I > think he even says DD is too busy. Then, DD appears from the same > exit Snape came from and talks to Harry. IMHO, both Snape and DD > knew Harry was there and Snape was keeping Harry there while DD > finished what he was doing and came down. (I suspect he was > gathering his thoughts from the pensieve.) I think Harry still > thinks Snape was trying to keep him away from DD. > > Anyway, that's my take on it. > > Potioncat (Oh, SSSusan, the twins say hello.) ;-) SSSusan again: Thanks for the welcome back. I *tried* to break my addiction to HPfGU, but it seems I've only had modest success.... Anyway, I do understand where the thread went & why, and it was interesting. I was just trying to say that I really think something important was brought out in Pippin's post [though it wasn't the point she was making], and I wanted to highlight it for whatever it was worth: LUPIN'S teaching methods work with Harry; Snape's don't. When LUPIN confronted Harry over his stupidity & rashness, Harry listened and recognized his own failing. When SNAPE confronts Harry, he gets his back up & starts defending himself or seething over Snape's unfairness. Too much history, I'm afraid, by now, and the pattern is likely too well established to break. Snape gets all kind of credit from me for all kinds of things--saving Harry numerous times, having left Voldy's service, continuing to risk his own arse (quietly, with no glory or credit) in the effort to defeat Voldy, his knowledge of potions, and on & on. I know, I know, I know that Snape would be far less interesting if he actually had succeeded in controlling his snarling taunts & sarcasm with Harry, but I just wish, as a teacher, and a teacher who presumably believes that Harry "needs to know this stuff" more than many of the rest, he'd have done a little evaluation of his teaching methods and SEEN that, if he really wanted Harry to succeed, he'd better try something different. Yada yada yada. Nobody wants to hear this anymore anyway. Siriusly Snapey Susan From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 15:09:08 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:09:08 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101357 > > 1) Hermione appears to be the ONLY student who actually did the > werewolf > > lesson, so Harry's "sin" in omitting a lesson that was recanted as > soon as > > Lupin returned was shared by the rest of the class as well. > > > > 2) Let us not let this discussion go by with a comment on how > reprehensible it > > was for Snape to attempt to "out" his fellow teacher in that > manner. (Later, he > > just blatantly does it.) > > > Mel: > You didn't answer the questions. Attempts at distraction will win > you no points. Oooh, nasty. If I was a weaker-willed poster, I might go crying to the Admins to post the polite and nice rules again. I just wanted to make sure we didn't lose sight of what Snape was trying to accomplish. Such things are very indicative of the man's character. Or lack thereof, as the case may be. > I disagree with you that Harry had no 'goal' in beginning Occlumency > lessons. I've heard this argument before and it never washes. I used > the same one trying to get out of Algebra and it didn't work then, > either. (I could be snarky here and say he had a goal of not > learning it because it was Snape). He was instructed clearly by > DUMBLEDORE to pay attention, work hard and do everything his teacher > told him to do. When he whined about it this assertion was backed up > by..OH! Lupin! Whaddya know! Harry's goal was to LEARN OCCLUMENCY > TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY. Harry's goal was to CLOSE HIS MIND FROM VOLDEMORT. That's what he was told by Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin. That should have been enough. Next you're going to claim he thought > that the 'real' reason he was being made to learn > Occlumency was to be found in Snape's Pensieve. Perhaps you should not worry about what I will claim next, since you look at the world so differently than I do. Again, polite and nice wins the race. :) He was told to do something, but never told why. For Harry, who for all his bleating and 15-year-old self-centeredness deserved to know a bit more. And again, it is about trust. What exactly in Harry and Snape's relationship would give him reason to trust Snape? And to answer the question, Harry did do his part to send the lessons off the rails when he dove into the Pensieve. But you know what? Thanks to Snape, it was a train wreck long before. Harry's had 5 years to get familiar with Snape's teaching style for > better or worse. You'd think by now he'd have figured out he's not > going to get a sweet every time he answers a question correctly. Ah, so Harry should be USED to it by now. Perhaps he should bend over and say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" > BTW, Dumbledore does not blame Snape for the lesson failures, he > blames himself. Yes, for actually believing that Snape could be a grownup! Read between the lines once in a while, why don'tcha? Oops, there I go again. Darrin From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 15 15:12:29 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:12:29 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101358 > Kneasy wrote: > I've suggested before that Snape is playing a part, or maybe exaggerating his feelings. It wouldn't do for Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle et al to send an owl home saying Snape was soft on Potter. It might compromise his secret missions (whatever they are) if he were suspected of back-sliding from the Slytherin ideal. Harry truly hating Snape is a bonus so far as Snape is concerned. It adds to his cover, gives him an excuse to sneak round and keep a close watchful eye on Harry. Mandy here: It goes far deeper than having to fool just Malfoy. Snape had to fool LV. He even has to fool everyone, all of the time! Snape is a sadistic bastard toward Harry, seemingly unnecessarily so at times. But if we are to believe that Snape is spying on LV (and the DE) for DD, we have to consider that he is, as Kneasy said above, playing a role, a role that his life depends upon. A role where one mistake, one slip up, one wrong action, thought or feeling, about Harry Potter, and Snape will end up dead and DD severly crippled in his fight against LV. Snape is the one who has to go back to the Dark side and be able to pass whatever vicious scrutiny LV, or any of the DE would inflict upon him. Snape's role from LV point of view is working for DD but really spying for LV. (Whether or not you believe LV believes Snape or Sanpe is playing double agant, that's for another post.) It is a role Snape has to maintain every minute of every day and night. Not only doesn't Snape know who's watching or listening to him, he is also (whether he likes it or not) storing up all these memories, feelings and emotions about Harry Potter inside his own head that can be looked at and examined by anyone skilled enough to do so. We know Snape to be an expert Legilimens and Occlumens, he has to be, but we don't know how good LV is. At least, as good as Snape, if not better, imo. Snape has to be able to show a consistent hatred toward Harry right from their first meeting to be able to pass whatever scrutiny LV puts him under. Snape cannot risk having one good thought about Harry, not one tiny supportive thought, feeling or emotion as it would blow his cover. So what about the times he has saved Harry? There is a difference between memories and feeling and emotions. Although they are connected and at times inseparable. A memory can create emotions and feelings about a person that are separate from the event that caused the memory in the first place. The pensive seems to be able to take within it one's memories. But it is not possible to remove all feelings and emotions about one particular person, when you remove that memory. Emotions and feelings run far deeper than memories ever could. If Snape is able to empty his mind of a physical memories about Harry, i.e. Saving the boy during the Quidditch match in PS/SS, and put that in a Pensive, I believe there will be residual emotions and feelings concerning the reasons why he had to save Harry still floating in his subconscious. That is what Snape has to be careful of controlling. If Snape's agenda is to ultimately destroy LV, and Harry is the only method of doing so, Snape has to constantly battle against subconscious desires to see Harry succeed and replace them with the desire to see Harry fail. Just one grain of desire to see Harry succeed buried in the back of Snape's subconscious mind could be the one found by LV, which would be disastrous. Snape's behavior discussing, but absolutely is necessary. Necessary for Snape to be able to do what he does. Walk back to the Dark side, stand in front of LV (or Lucius depending on what theory you like) and stay alive long enough to gather as much information as he can for DD. Cheers Mandy From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 15:11:44 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (Maggie Barclay) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: <1087306059.5622.81613.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040615151144.90938.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101359 22. Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? From: "Jen Reese" First of all I'd like to apologize for not including the message. Evidently the new Yahoo mail service doesn't include all of the previous message when you reply--it cuts it off somewhere in the middle. About Trelawney doing magic, I don't have my books with me, but I'm thinking that in PoA she cleans up the cup that Neville drops. I'm pretty sure it gets cleaned up, but I'm not positive that she is the one who does it. MaggieB--who really should be working --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 15:16:49 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:16:49 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Potioncat: > > To summond another bottle of sherry, of course! > > IIRC this thread was started to ask if Trelawney was the one to > > learn magic late in life, but she is already considered a witch > and > > that means she already does magic. IMO, it will be a Muggle or a > > Squib who learns magic. > > > Jen: Do we know she's a witch or just surmise that? That's what I'm > wondering. She wouldn't necessarily be the one to perform magic late > in life, but that discussion started me wondering when we've > actually seen her perform magic. Perhaps it's just a detail lost in > all the other more important aspects of the book. > > Of course, I'm not certain we've seen Prof. Sprout do anything with > a wand, either. Maybe that's why they went into the professions they > did, because less magic was required and that wasn't their forte > Although I'm not sure Divination is Trelawney's forte, either, but > she is a Prophecy channeller--that's something to her name. > > Thanks for the canon from OOTP, Jacqui! I'm looking too. At least we > know Trelawney owns a wand. To summon another bottle indeed! :P You are more than welcome Jen, like I said earlier, once I get home I shall do a little more research on this. You have got my curiousity peaked on this subject. Jacqui From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 15:30:13 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:30:13 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: <20040615151144.90938.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maggie Barclay wrote: > > 22. Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? > From: "Jen Reese" > > First of all I'd like to apologize for not including the message. Evidently the new Yahoo mail service doesn't include all of the previous message when you reply--it cuts it off somewhere in the middle. > > About Trelawney doing magic, I don't have my books with me, but I'm thinking that in PoA she cleans up the cup that Neville drops. I'm pretty sure it gets cleaned up, but I'm not positive that she is the one who does it. > > MaggieB--who really should be working > Oh yes that is right, I vaguely remember that incident in the book, thanks Maggie! That gives me somemore stuff to look up tonight! :P Jacqui Who should also be working :P From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 15:37:02 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:37:02 -0000 Subject: List debates (was Draco's Intent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101362 > > I'm about to slightly disagree with my sweetie here, but I know he can handle > it. :-) Hey, you didn't disagree with me before!!!? That's right, you all. I LOVE THIS WOMAN!!! See, I'm just a big softie. > Yes, Draco *does* talk openly of murder, death and hatred, but I think he's far more all talk than serious. He may well become a murderer, but he is far > from one now. That's why I think he didn't understand the possible > ramifications of the prank he tried (and so miserably failed) to play on Harry. > Draco shows no understanding of others' suffering. Hey, if I was a DE, I > wouldn't want him in *my* inner circle. Well, just because he is useless in his execution doesn't mean he doesn't have murderous intent. I think his past and future comments really indicate a little sociopath, who may not have intended murder, but didn't care one way or the other whether it happened. > Remember, we've seen far more cowardice on Draco's part than any real > active cruelty. He hurls words at his classmates and then runs and hids > behind his father's robes. What a punk. > > Maybe now that his father is in Azkaban he'll open his eyes. Peh, Draco is the Wile E. Coyote to Harry's Road Runner. Harry has bigger fish to fry than Draco. Darrin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 15:41:02 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:41:02 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101363 Maggie: > > About Trelawney doing magic, I don't have my books with me, but I'm > thinking that in PoA she cleans up the cup that Neville drops. I'm > pretty sure it gets cleaned up, but I'm not positive that she is the > one who does it. > > > > MaggieB--who really should be working Jacqui: > Oh yes that is right, I vaguely remember that incident in the book, > thanks Maggie! That gives me somemore stuff to look up tonight! :P > > Jacqui > Who should also be working :P Jen: Well, I should be working too, but instead had to check this scene out in POA: "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and said..." (US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) So, no evidence yet! Although I have to say that Trelawney holding a wand in OOTP is probably evidence she can perform magic. Unless it belonged to a family member ;). From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 15:55:07 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:55:07 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Maggie: > > > About Trelawney doing magic, I don't have my books with me, but > I'm > > thinking that in PoA she cleans up the cup that Neville drops. > I'm > > pretty sure it gets cleaned up, but I'm not positive that she is > the > > one who does it. > > > > > > MaggieB--who really should be working > > Jacqui: > > Oh yes that is right, I vaguely remember that incident in the > book, > > thanks Maggie! That gives me somemore stuff to look up tonight! :P > > > > Jacqui > > Who should also be working :P > > Jen: Well, I should be working too, but instead had to check this > scene out in POA: > > "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of > teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor > Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and said..." > (US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) > > So, no evidence yet! Although I have to say that Trelawney holding a > wand in OOTP is probably evidence she can perform magic. > > Unless it belonged to a family member ;). From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 15:54:57 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:54:57 -0000 Subject: The Snape-Malfoy connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101365 Neri: > So, here is my idea (with apologies to all the members who brought it > up before): Snape knew Malfoy was a real DE. He had the evidence and > could have turned Malfoy in after the first war. Malfoy knew that. > But DD told Snape to lie to the Ministry and testify that Malfoy was > under the Imperio, so Malfoy would be cleared. This convinced Malfoy > that Snape is on his side. DD did it as an investment for the future > and a start for building the Snape-Malfoy connection. So after LV's > resurrection, Malfoy comes to Voldy (after Voldy had cooled down a > bit) and tells him: "I know what you think about Snape, but he's our > guy. He covered for me although he didn't have to". Jen: This seems very possible, although I see Malfoy as playing both sides. I'm convinced he's not a loyal DE. Voldemort may know this, but needs him right now and doesn't want to have him for an enemy. Maybe Lucius skilled at Occlumency or some other magical mind- thingy, but somehow, *some way* Lucius has his own agenda outside of Voldemort's agenda. I do think Snape and Lucius have an alliance out of necessity and wonder if Snape will be in danger until Malfoy escapes or is released from Azkaban. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 15:55:06 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:55:06 -0000 Subject: Green Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > * Gina : You are right. I was thinking LV said it. > Oh well I tried. > > Sarah (me): > > But wait! You are right, Harry got it from Voldemort's speech a few > paragraphs earlier: > > '"And now you face me, like a man . . . straight-backed and proud, the way > your father died. . . . > "And now - we duel."' > > Sarah > * > * > * Great! Thanks Sara! I am trying my best to piece > together what happened there that night at GH. We know that Lily was there > and Harry hears her, but I do not think the man he heard was James! Because > PoA when Harry tells Lupin he heard Lily he does not say anything but when > he says he heard his father Lupin asks in a "strange" voice, "You heard > James?" > * To me this sounds like Lupin knows that James > was not there or at least that he was not the one that told Lily to run. > Obviously from this passage we know that James was killed by LV but when and > where? If he was not there - who was? > > Gina > If James was not there, and it was indeed someone else, how do we explain the shadows in the graveyard scene? The explanation we got from DD about the brother wand effect was that it caused the wand to regurgitate spells from most recent to the oldest until the connection is broken. There is no other shadow between Lily and James. It can't be Harry's back to the future self because Lily refers to him as "your father." So, if James was not there, LV had not cast a single spell between the time he Killed Mr. Potter until he killed Lily. Also, if it were another man or someone else there, did V not duel with him or kill him outright? Thoughts, rebuttals? Jason From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 15:55:06 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:55:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101367 Someone asked: >But I have one thought. When I read SS's claim that he could 'put a stopper >on death,' I >interpreted it not as a claim that he could stop someone from dying, but >that he could put >Death itself in a bottle--that is to say, he could brew the potion-making >equivalent of the >AK curse, the ultimate poison. Did anyone else read it this way? Yes, that's what I thought from the beginning, and I suspect that such a poison -- or, equally likely, a poison that can counterfeit death -- will show up some time during these adventures. Remember the trouble such a poison caused in *Romeo and Juliet?* Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 15:58:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:58:30 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101368 > > Jen: .Well, I should be working too, but instead had to check this > scene out in POA: > > "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of > teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor > Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and said..." > (US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) > > So, no evidence yet! Although I have to say that Trelawney holding a > wand in OOTP is probably evidence she can perform magic. > > Unless it belonged to a family member ;). Potioncat: Isn't wizarding housekeeping interesting? Here's Trelawny with a broom and dust pan for a broken cup, yet Snape can repair a broken jar with a spell. Things can be swept away with "evanesco" yet Filch is around to mop floors and scrub frog brains off ceilings. And the castle employs hundreds of house-elves who also cook and clean. Potioncat who needs to be out buying groceries for house-elves to cook...wait I don't have any house-elves! From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 16:04:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:04:09 -0000 Subject: Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101369 Janet wrote: > Yes, that's what I thought from the beginning, and I suspect that such a > poison -- or, equally likely, a poison that can counterfeit death - - will > show up some time during these adventures. Remember the trouble such a > poison caused in *Romeo and Juliet?* Potioncat: Which may be why Snape is so insistent that Harry learn about poisons and antidotes! I'm working from memory here (not much to go on, if you know what I mean) But didn't Trelawney predict both Harry's death and Harry's living a long life? So in one of the books he's given a pretend poison and "dies" but is brought out of it (Romeo and Juliet) and lives for those 12 kids or grandkids.... Potioncat From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 15 16:08:13 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:08:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Green Light Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101370 If James was not there, and it was indeed someone else, how do we explain the shadows in the graveyard scene? The explanation we got from DD about the brother wand effect was that it caused the wand to regurgitate spells from most recent to the oldest until the connection is broken. There is no other shadow between Lily and James. It can't be Harry's back to the future self because Lily refers to him as "your father." So, if James was not there, LV had not cast a single spell between the time he Killed Mr. Potter until he killed Lily. Also, if it were another man or someone else there, did V not duel with him or kill him outright? Thoughts, rebuttals? Jason _________________________________________ Okay, these are my thoughts because you are absolutely right! I am not for time travel Harry or any ESE's but this is what it points to IMO 1) We do not know that LV killed the person who was there that night! - if this is the case I think 18 year old Harry could ignore Hermione's warnings and travel back just to see what happened. Then like at the lake in POA he realizes "NO ONE IS COMING" and he is the one that saves himself! That would explain the green light - maybe Harry tried Avada Kadavra on LV but was not mean enough to make it kill him thus it STOPPED him but he was able to come back yet baby Harry lives! Thus he saved himself. 2) My other theory is that maybe Snape realized (or ESE Lupin but I hope not) that LV meant to kill Lily and tried to bargain with him. Maybe Snape had agreed to give information on the Potters in exchange that LV spare Lily - LV tried to leave her alone, but it did not happen that way - he may not have killed anyone but Lily at GH that night. Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 16:05:29 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:05:29 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Jen: > .Well, I should be working too, but instead had to check this > > scene out in POA: > > > > "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of > > teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor > > Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and > said..." > > (US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) > > > > So, no evidence yet! Although I have to say that Trelawney holding > a > > wand in OOTP is probably evidence she can perform magic. > > > > Unless it belonged to a family member ;). > > Potioncat: > Isn't wizarding housekeeping interesting? Here's Trelawny with a > broom and dust pan for a broken cup, yet Snape can repair a broken > jar with a spell. Things can be swept away with "evanesco" yet > Filch is around to mop floors and scrub frog brains off ceilings. > And the castle employs hundreds of house-elves who also cook and > clean. > Potioncat who needs to be out buying groceries for house-elves to > cook...wait I don't have any house-elves! You do make a good point there. I dont know why Trelawny wouldn't have repaired the tea cup...quite interesting. In the case of Filch he is a squib, so he couldnt use it if he wanted to. The house-elves have there own magic, but not the same kind as human's, so they probably can't just make something appear or disappear for that matter. Jacqui From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 15 16:08:40 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:08:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > The werewolf as AIDS parallel has been drawn here. I use it to illustrate this > argument. What if a teacher "outed" a gay colleague? Reprehensible. > As far as I know, "gay" and "AIDS" are not synonyms. Outing someone who is gay is not nice. Outing someone who has AIDS might be necessary to protect others. Lupin doesn't just hang out with wolves in his spare time; he is a WEREWOLF. He is *dangerous*. And saying nothing about it is denying other people a chance to make a fully informed choice about whether or not they want to take a risk. Should things go wrong, keeping quiet would amount to participating in a cover-up. Snape's motives are seldom unmixed in any situation, but I don't see why we should assume that he was completely selfish in getting Lupin kicked out at the end. He was against having him there from the first, but out of respect for Dumbledore he obeyed orders and went along with the game. Why shouldn't his objections to Lupin have been at least partly because of the safety issue? I think they were - I think he's very committed to keeping the students safe. When the whole thing blows up at the end, Snape would see his arguments as being justified: "You see? I TOLD you something like this would happen! I TOLD you he couldn't be relied upon, and the risk of accidents is just too high!" As nothing happened to Snape as a result of his "indiscretion", and Lupin got the boot, I think it shows that Dumbledore was acknowledging that Snape had the better of the argument that time. Wanda From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 16:08:52 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:08:52 -0000 Subject: Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Janet wrote: > > Yes, that's what I thought from the beginning, and I suspect that > such a > > poison -- or, equally likely, a poison that can counterfeit death - > - will > > show up some time during these adventures. Remember the trouble > such a > > poison caused in *Romeo and Juliet?* > > > > Potioncat: > Which may be why Snape is so insistent that Harry learn about > poisons and antidotes! > > I'm working from memory here (not much to go on, if you know what I > mean) But didn't Trelawney predict both Harry's death and Harry's > living a long life? So in one of the books he's given a pretend > poison and "dies" but is brought out of it (Romeo and Juliet) and > lives for those 12 kids or grandkids.... > Potioncat I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was a certain incident (which I cant remember...sorry) then she all of a sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can anyone else remember what that incident was? Jacqui From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 16:16:01 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:16:01 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101374 , I think it shows that > Dumbledore was acknowledging that Snape had the better of the > argument that time. > Snape went behind D-Dore's back to out Lupin. He did not "play along with D- Dore's orders." He set the essay hoping to start a panic, which I'm sure D-Dore would not consider as "playing along." Lupin resigned and D-Dore did not refuse it, as he later did with Hagrid. Lupin screwed up, but he's also still a member of the Order of the Phoenix. D-Dore stood in the face of parental outrage (and he did have a great deal of parental support) when it came to Hagrid. Had he wished Lupin to stay, he would have done the same for him. D-Dore didn't want him there. All Snape accomplished was humiliating him on the way out. I wonder, must Snape be right in EVERY situation? Darrin From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 15 16:20:06 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:20:06 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < wsherratt3338 at r...> wrote: >As nothing happened to Snape as a result of his "indiscretion", and Lupin got the boot, I think it shows that Dumbledore was acknowledging that Snape had the better of the argument that time.> I agree with you completely about AIDS and gay being two separate issues. However, Lupin never "got the boot". He resigned. I don't recall finding out Dumbledore's opinion on whether or not he thought Snape did the right thing letting Lupin's situation "slip" the way he did. Either way, I just can't see how it was Snape's business to share that information with the general Hogwarts population, especially when he didn't do so all year until after he was knocked out by the students he disliked the most, and who were clearly supportive of Lupin. Then he couldn't wait to share the news. Maybe we should question why Dumbledore chose not to warn Hogwarts students and their parents about Lupin. Would that have been unprofessional? I know there are members here (I am remembering the great Amandageist's comments in particular) who would never let their children near Lupin knowing he was capable of becoming dangerous in a way that he could not control. Would you let your kids have a professor in Lupin's situation? I would, but I understand why people wouldn't. --jenny from ravenclaw From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 15 16:26:22 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:26:22 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101376 Jen Reese wrote: > Jen: Well, I should be working too, but instead had to check this > scene out in POA: > > "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of > teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor > Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and said..." > (US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) > > So, no evidence yet! Could she have *broken* the cup by magic? She picked on Neville as a plausible cup-breaker, but she couldn't be certain he'd break one (unless she had foresight, hur hur). Perhaps she used magic to ensure that her prediction came true. David From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 16:29:16 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:29:16 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101377 Jenny wrote: > > Either way, I just can't see how it was Snape's business to share that > information with the general Hogwarts population, especially when he didn't > do so all year until after he was knocked out by the students he disliked the > most, and who were clearly supportive of Lupin. Then he couldn't wait to > share the news. And remember it came after the loss of the Order of Merlin. > Maybe we should question why Dumbledore chose not to warn Hogwarts > students and their parents about Lupin. Would that have been > unprofessional? I know there are members here (I am remembering the > great Amandageist's comments in particular) who would never let their > children near Lupin knowing he was capable of becoming dangerous in a way that he could not control. If parents knew half the things that went on at Hogwarts, there might not be a school. D-Dore has allowed several unsavory types to teach: 1) Quirrell, a teacher he had to have suspected was carting around V-Mort 2) Lockhart, a teacher he suspected was a fraud 3) A werewolf 4) A half-giant We never did find out what, if anything, parents were told about their children being petrified for a good portion of the year in CoS. I'm still pondering the look on the Creevey's face when they send their kid to this strange wizard school and then find out he was petrified for a good portion of the year. Either way, it wasn't Snape's place to do it. D-Dore overruled him and Snape went behind his back, again, trying to start a panic in the students. Of course, there might have been some extra meaning in Lupin quickly setting a vampire essay right after... Darrin From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 15 16:36:16 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:36:16 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < wsherratt3338 at r...> wrote: >As nothing happened to Snape as a result of his "indiscretion", and Lupin got the boot, I think it shows that Dumbledore was acknowledging that Snape had the better of the argument that time.> I agree with you completely about AIDS and gay being two separate issues. However, Lupin never "got the boot". He resigned. I don't recall finding out Dumbledore's opinion on whether or not he thought Snape did the right thing letting Lupin's situation "slip" the way he did. Either way, I just can't see how it was Snape's business to share that information with the general Hogwarts population, especially when he didn't do so all year until after he was knocked out by the students he disliked the most, and who were clearly supportive of Lupin. Then he couldn't wait to share the news. Maybe we should question why Dumbledore chose not to warn Hogwarts students and their parents about Lupin. Would that have been unprofessional? I know there are members here (I am remembering the great Amandageist's comments in particular) who would never let their children near Lupin knowing he was capable of becoming dangerous in a way that he could not control. Would you let your kids have a professor in Lupin's situation? I would, but I understand why people wouldn't. --jenny from ravenclaw From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 16:52:03 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:52:03 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Could she have *broken* the cup by magic? She picked on Neville as > a plausible cup-breaker, but she couldn't be certain he'd break one > (unless she had foresight, hur hur). Perhaps she used magic to > ensure that her prediction came true. > Jen: That's a possibility! There's only this sentence in POA about the incident, and it's vague: "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner reached the shelf of teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china." (US, chap. 6, p. 105). Neville doesn't protest that he hadn't even picked up the cup before it broke, not that he would be one to confront a teacher. If Trelawney did use magic here, she's more devious than I've given her credit for! Actually, I think Neville believing he *would* break a cup, since Trelawney said so, is more on the mark--the old self-fulfilling prophecy. From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 15 17:25:35 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:25:35 -0000 Subject: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101380 vmonte responds: > > Maybe the order is a lot older than even that. The name of the group: > The Order of the Phoenix, implies a much longer lived society. The > Phoenix is a bird that lives for thousands of years and continuously > dies and is reborn. I wouldn't necessarily run away with the idea. We've also seen that the Phoenix makes a *superior* messenger. It is quite possible that it was that function that was being invoked. Particularly given Dumbledore's reputation for knowing everything and gathering information. And there is the little fact that Moody states that the photo shows the members of the "original" Order. So, it may have replaced an earlier, traditional organization (as the DEs replaced the Knights of Walpurgis) but the Order itself, seems to have originated on Dumbledore's watch. After all he is credited to have "founded" it. As to both families already being members when the kids were born... Well, Dumbledore knew the terms of the prophesy. He could have founded the Order from a core of the people he knew to have escaped Voldemort's attentions the requesite 3 times. More than one of the people on that casualty list of Moody's had families as well. From HumWolf at aol.com Tue Jun 15 17:52:34 2004 From: HumWolf at aol.com (HumWolf at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:52:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4716 Message-ID: <15f.30c3dabf.2e009162@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101381 In a message dated 6/15/2004 12:04:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: Re:Snape & Harry As I woke up this morning after finishing G of F much earlier this morning, this thought occurred to me. There has been a lot of discussion about Snape/Harry, this thread in particular. One thing we do not know is why Snape has been denied the DADA position these years. In the place between sleep and awake it came to me that the reason must be so that when the time comes, his DADA skills which have been hidden until that moment, will be revealed. Most logically, they will be in defense of Harry against Voldemort. Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 15 17:53:13 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:53:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Order of the Phoenix? References: Message-ID: <024d01c45301$a1f99e60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101382 Jodel wrote: > As to both families already being members when the kids were born... > > Well, Dumbledore knew the terms of the prophesy. He could have founded > the Order from a core of the people he knew to have escaped Voldemort's > attentions the requesite 3 times. More than one of the people on that > casualty list of Moody's had families as well. Jodel, they weren't just members when the kids were born, they were members before DD ever heard the prophecy. (see my quote in the previous reply) Alina. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 17:53:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:53:13 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101383 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > > I also must agree with Darrin when he points out that Snape is > > the adult. As a teacher, there have been times when I would have > > loved nothing more than to let a student have it, but I don't. I > > can't. There are students I don't like very much, but I give > > them the grades they earn (no one says I'm unfair at my school). > > In fact, students think I have no favorites (I've heard them say > > it), but I do. Why can't Snape do that? Del replied: > Because he wasn't trained the way you were. In fact, he wasn't > trained at all. You live in a society that has immense expectations > of its teachers, and that trains and monitors them accordingly. > Snape lives in a society where pretty much anyone can be a teacher. > All that is required of them is that they know more or less what > they are talking about, and as far as this is concerned, Snape fits > the bill perfectly. Other than that, and especially concerning > teaching methods, there doesn't seem to be any guidelines of any > sorts. Snape seems to have good OWLs results and that seems to be > enough for everyone. > I mean, let's be honest : the way Snape treats Harry bothers *us*, > but we've never seen that it bothers any adult in the WW. After all, > Hogwarts is a school where students keep hexing each other, where > teachers can confront the students to dangerous beasts and curses, > where various monsters can roam around, and so on. It's most > definitely nowhere close to one of our schools, so we must not > expect the teachers to be the same either. SSSusan: Del, I'm sure this has been said before in arguments over Snape's teaching methods, but for some reason it has really struck me today in your words. I think you're right. And I think I am beginning to understand why Teacher!Snape bothers Jenny and me and other teachers out there more than he bothers some others: we teach (or taught) and we can't STAND to see someone who clearly is an excellent teacher in some ways be such an awful teacher in other ways. It hits home harder w/ those of us who've been there perhaps. I truly cannot fathom a teacher "getting away with" what Snape gets away with. Parents or administrators would step in. Students would rebel. But Snape at Hogwarts is not RL. It's hard to let go of the, "Well, he SHOULD be able to change" or "He's an adult in a position of authority & responsibility--it's his JOB to see that he's effective." I mean, did I ever dislike a student? Well, yeah. Did I ever show it? Not if I could help it. Did I call students for misbehaving, not listening, being lazy, not completing assignments, having inappropriate attitudes? You betcha. Did I use extreme sarcasm or smart ass remarks to do so? No, I did not. So Snape's nastiness to Harry, Neville & Hermione pisses me off. It's harder to step back from it when you've lived it, and the tendency to compare is strong. But I'll bet I can enjoy Snape more if I can manage to do so. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 17:55:23 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:55:23 -0000 Subject: The Hat Test (was Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry )) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101384 Mrs.) Lee Storm ( > wrote: > > > > Hat is testing Harry; Hat is giving Harry his first choice to > make. Hat > > goes on to needle Harry in COS about him going to Slytherin; Harry > flatly > > rejects the idea and puts Hat back on Dumbledore's shelf. > > > > Then, in COS, what comes to Harry's aid along with Fawks? Our > friendly > > Hat...which gives him the Gryffindor Sword. > > > > So, methinks Hat is sincere, but it's also doing its part as a > guardian and > > giving whatever testing is necessary to prove a student's true > nature...or > > disprove it. > > > I never thought that Harry going to Gryffindor was such a sure bet - > it seems to me there was a decent chance he could have gone into > Slytherin. Remember, Draco approaches him respectfully when they > first arrive at Hogwarts; he doesn't realize that he's already shown > his true colours by his snotty behaviour when talking to Harry in > the robe shop in Diagon Alley. And it's just chance that Harry met > Ron first, so that he was immunized against Draco's insults. What > if things had been a little different? If he'd arrived a few > minutes earlier at King's Cross, and sat in a different carriage, > his first welcome into the wizarding world might have been by a > group of Slytherins, who would have been honoured and flattered to > count him as one of 'theirs'. Then Harry's response to the Hat > would have been quite different - he started off as a bit of a blank > slate, and I think could have gone in quite a different direction if > circumstances had been just a bit different. > > Wanda Not that I don't get what you're saying, but IMHO, even if Harry rode on the train with DM & Co, I think the first time DM made a snotty/hateful remark to Ron b/c he's poor would have turned Harry off immediately, even if he hadn't even met Ron yet. Harry's all too familiar with not having anything but hand-me-downs. Susan (Just my two knutes) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:05:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:05:20 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: snip. > But Snape at Hogwarts is not RL. It's hard to let go of the, "Well, > he SHOULD be able to change" or "He's an adult in a position of > authority & responsibility--it's his JOB to see that he's > effective." I mean, did I ever dislike a student? Well, yeah. Did > I ever show it? Not if I could help it. Did I call students for > misbehaving, not listening, being lazy, not completing assignments, > having inappropriate attitudes? You betcha. Did I use extreme > sarcasm or smart ass remarks to do so? No, I did not. So Snape's > nastiness to Harry, Neville & Hermione pisses me off. > > It's harder to step back from it when you've lived it, and the > tendency to compare is strong. But I'll bet I can enjoy Snape more > if I can manage to do so. :-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Hi, Susan! Here is my question though. How much exactly are we supposed to step from the standards of Real Life teaching profession to cut Snape a slack? I second all of your sentiments. I am not working as a teacher, but in college I was training to be one. I had family members in teaching profession, etc. so I have some familiarity with it. Having said all that, surely JKR had in mind some RL teachers, when she draw this nasty caricature of them. Where else would she draw her inspiration? Of course from RL. Yes, Wisarding World is not real. (HA! ) We all know that. :o) But I think that some reality standards are still meant to be apply. Missed reading your posts. Welcome back. Alla From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:06:46 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:06:46 -0000 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101386 There have been so many posts I can't even find the quotes i'm looking for. I'll try to summarize the ideas though I apologize for not quoting accurately. The argument goes back and forth as to Draco's intent with his fake dementor prank. Most of people arguments depends on their view of how Draco thought the Dementors would effect Harry. Someone said that the kids dressed in robes would not have the same effect as an actual Dementor because, well, it was fake. Im quite possibly missing a key piece of that idea but, again, I can't find it. Please respond again after I throw out my rebuttal. Rebuttal: The Boggart Dementor was fake also yet it had the same effects as a real one on Harry as he attempted to learn the Patronus charm. So why would children dressed in robes effect the same way? Providing Harry believed them to be dementors. Again, I feel like im missing something that i'm trying to say but I can't figure out what it is. :-\ I guess my whole point is what is the difference between a boggart dementor and a Draco dementor? As for what Draco was thinking.... As I read the story the first time, I just imagined a teenager doing something he thought would be funny (to himself and his friends). I doubt he thought it through to killing Harry. Jason Sorry for the randomness :-( From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 15 18:18:05 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:18:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question References: <1087242413.7256.54589.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002001c45305$1abdba40$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 101387 Leah wondered: >BTW: How did Sirius know where to find PP after Godric's Hollow? We know that Peter had to be the one to show Voldemort how to find the house. It's logical to surmise that he was there in person (I'm sure Voldemort would have insisted on that one, just to make sure he wasn't being set up). He's not mentioned as having been in the fight at the house, which suggests that he was somewhere outside, probably hiding. Voldemort's spell fails, the house falls down, and Peter takes flight. Sirius turns up on his motorbike, and after a brief discussion with Hagrid about Harry's custody, gives Hagrid the motorbike saying that he wouldn't be needing it again. I wonder if - Peter turned into a rat and fled - Sirius turned into a dog and tracked him down that way It would also explain the motorbike handover. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 18:20:46 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:20:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a01c45305$7e9b5ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 101388 Jacqui: I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was a certain incident (which I cant remember...sorry) then she all of a sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can anyone else remember what that incident was? Jacqui Sherry: Wasn't that in OOTP, when umbridge is observing the divination class? Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. Sherry G From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 18:30:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:30:40 -0000 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101389 Jason wrote: > > As for what Draco was thinking.... > As I read the story the first time, I just imagined a teenager doing > something he thought would be funny (to himself and his friends). I > doubt he thought it through to killing Harry. Potioncat: Until today I never put Draco's prank and Sirius' prank together. Did either boy intend to kill the victim? I don't know. I don't think so. Would either have been held accountable if the victim had been injured or killed? I hope so. I believe Snape honestly thinks Sirius was trying to kill him. I don't think that Harry believes that Draco was trying to kill him. But I am picturing Professor Potter reminding Headmaster Snape that "he tried to kill me!" and Professor Snape replying, "My memory is as good as ever." Or some such.... Potioncat From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:34:07 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:34:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040614225729.30797.qmail@web40102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101390 nadjjaa wrote: > > Sirius can't be really DEAD. That just makes ZERO sense. > > nadjjaa (HI) > > > *** ~~ *** ~~~ *** > Hi nadjjaa! Just curious, b/c I'm one of the people on this list who really really want him to come back. So, why does it make zero sense? I really want to believe that he is still alive, and there's been threads here that propose that his "death" was planned all along to help Sirius escape so he can continue to help the Order, particularly since his cover as Padfoot/Snuffles was blown. However, I'm rather afraid to believe it b/c of JKR's comments that people die, rather suddenly at that, and especially in war. Enlighten me, *please*! Susan (Padfot lover ;-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:43:29 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:43:29 -0000 Subject: Petunia not the latebloomer, but magic nonetheless In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychobirdgirl" wrote: > I think that both Petunia and Dudley could be magical and yet not > have the "magic late in life" label apply to them, simply because if > they developed their magic early on and either hid it or had it > hidden from them then they might be using magic later in the series > and not be breaking J.K.R.'s statement that people are either magic > or not, and also without them being the latebloomers that J.K.R. > promised. The same could be said of Hagrid, he was magical to begin > with but was expelled so he is just not well practiced but could use > magic in the coming war. I would say that the best candidates would > be one of the squibs we know, because they are the only ones that > could be late bloomers in the sense that they expected to be magical > but weren't, other people could be magical but so weak they don't > know they are magical, or in denial,(i.e. the muggles we are > familiar with), and any muggle we don't know just being magical all > of a sudden doesn't make sense to me with the information we have > been given( but you never know with JKR), so my bet would be on a > squib, most probably Mrs. Figg in defense of Harry at the big > showdown on Privet in the beginning of book 6. > > > psychobirdgirl K, Hope no one else has already said this, but IMHO, Petunia is _not_ magical, and neither is Dudders. Let's just say, as others have proposed, that Petunia's hatred for Lily stems from jealousy. Lily got accepted into Hogwarts _because_ she was a witch. If Petunia was magical, where's her invitation? Surely she'd want to go to Hogwarts as well, simply so she could gain her parents admiration as well. I could see her going and being sorted into Slytherine, why not? And if she was a squib, well, I'm not recalling anything anywhere in canon that says that Hogwarts is selective in who they invite to school. I always assumed that people like Filch and Mrs. Figg went to Howarts, and _that's_ how they discovered that they were squibs, b/c they were horrible at magic. As for Dudders, the same applies, really. If Dudders had any magic in that plump body of his, where's _his_ invitation? So, I'm with you on the possibility of Mrs. Figg, and I could also see Hagrid practicing/using magic to fight in the war, though I'm not sure he actually qualifies, as he's not exactly a late bloomer, just uneducated. Susan (teilani) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 18:45:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:45:18 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101392 > SSSusan: > Del, I'm sure this has been said before in arguments over Snape's > teaching methods, but for some reason it has really struck me today > in your words. I think you're right. And I think I am beginning to > understand why Teacher!Snape bothers Jenny and me and other teachers > out there more than he bothers some others: we teach (or taught) and > we can't STAND to see someone who clearly is an excellent teacher in > some ways be such an awful teacher in other ways. It hits home > harder w/ those of us who've been there perhaps. I truly cannot > fathom a teacher "getting away with" what Snape gets away with. > Parents or administrators would step in. Students would rebel. > > But Snape at Hogwarts is not RL. It's hard to let go of the, "Well, > he SHOULD be able to change" or "He's an adult in a position of > authority & responsibility--it's his JOB to see that he's > effective." I mean, did I ever dislike a student? Well, yeah. Did > I ever show it? Not if I could help it. Did I call students for > misbehaving, not listening, being lazy, not completing assignments, > having inappropriate attitudes? You betcha. Did I use extreme > sarcasm or smart ass remarks to do so? No, I did not. So Snape's > nastiness to Harry, Neville & Hermione pisses me off. > > It's harder to step back from it when you've lived it, and the > tendency to compare is strong. But I'll bet I can enjoy Snape more > if I can manage to do so. :-) Potioncat: Quick! Whoever wrote that is using polyjuice! That cannot be SSSusan! ;-) Honestly, I've never seen you so soft on Teacher!Snape. I do agree though that personal training comes in. I had some very unkind thoughts for Madam Pomfrey when Harry found the note in Hermione's hand. Just what kind of nursing care were those patients getting!? Obviously not range of motion or baths! Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 15 18:58:36 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:58:36 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101393 Alla: > Here is my question though. How much exactly are we supposed to step from the standards of Real Life teaching profession to cut Snape a slack? > Yes, Wisarding World is not real. (HA! ) We all know that. :o) > But I think that some reality standards are still meant to be apply.< Pippin: Nobody's saying Snape's methods ought to be emulated in real life. But there are real life teachers like Snape, and of course the inconvenient thing about them is the same as in Snape's case. Though his methods are horrible, they work. They wouldn't work for everybody, but they work for him. He has enough presence to keep his students from tuning him out, no matter how hard they try. As long as his methods go on working, he isn't likely to change. If he did start to change, his results (as measured by OWLs and NEWTs) would probably get worse, because of the learning curve. The occlumency failure might get to him. Unfortunately, he knew that Harry wasn't trying. And it's interesting that once Harry did make up his mind to banish Voldemort, he was able to oust the Dark Lord within seconds. Did Snape's lessons have anything to do with that? It will be darned hard to convince Snape otherwise. Del makes a good point--Hogwarts is much more authoritarian and much more dangerous than a real school. So is the wizarding world. The average wizarding environment is probably not so cozy as the Burrow nor so creepy as Grimmauld Place, but very much like Hogwarts. Snapes and Umbridges abound, few people think corporal punishment is too severe to inflict on children or House Elves, and nobody would blame you for treating your subordinates like dirt if you thought they deserved it. Talking back just doesn't get you anwhere in a society like that. One thing you can say for Draco, when he thinks a teacher is no good he doesn't waste his time acting out in class, he does something effective about it. He didn't get Hagrid sacked--but Rubeus's teaching methods improved in a right hurry, I'd say. ;-) If Harry really wanted to get Snape sacked, he'd have to prove that Snape was endangering students, and that would be hard to do. But of course he doesn't want that, he just wants Snape to treat him differently. Dumbledore wants that too. But was it realistic? Not under the circumstances. Asking Snape to get over his grudge against Harry was like asking a recovering alcoholic to demonstrate drinking responsibly. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 19:00:19 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:00:19 -0000 Subject: DD to blame for occlumency? (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101394 Mel: > I disagree with you that Harry had no 'goal' in beginning > Occlumency lessons. I've heard this argument before and it never > washes. I used the same one trying to get out of Algebra and it > didn't work then, either. (I could be snarky here and say he had a > goal of not learning it because it was Snape). He was instructed > clearly by DUMBLEDORE to pay attention, work hard and do everything > his teacher told him to do. When he whined about it this assertion > was backed up by..OH! Lupin! Whaddya know! Harry's goal was to > LEARN OCCLUMENCY TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY. Harry's goal was to > CLOSE HIS MIND FROM VOLDEMORT. That's what he was told by > Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin. > That should have been enough. Next you're going to claim he thought > that the 'real' reason he was being made to learn > Occlumency was to be found in Snape's Pensieve. > > Harry's had 5 years to get familiar with Snape's teaching style for > better or worse. You'd think by now he'd have figured out he's not > going to get a sweet every time he answers a question correctly. > SSSusan: Of course you're correct in the last paragraph, that Harry would not have gone in expecting a fun time or sweets as rewards for getting in right. You're also right that Harry SHOULD have listened to DD, Lupin & Snape, and trusted their instructions. On the other hand, I think there is something to the goal's clarity in Lupin's dementor lessons & the goal's lack of clarity in the occlumency lessons...COUPLED with the fact that Harry felt things were getting worse, not better. For right or wrong, Harry doesn't trust Snape very much. He doesn't feel he's someone he can talk to very easily. He HAS talked w/ DD in the past, but all year DD has been avoiding him [so Harry thinks--and he's right, though he doesn't know WHY], and he can't get ahold of DD to ask him, "Please, sir, WHY do I need to do this? It's not working. I seem to be getting worse. Can't you explain this to me?" DD's not around nor been willing to explain. As I said in another post today, Harry trusted Lupin and felt Lupin truly wanted to help him. Harry has his doubts about Snape, and when he failed to improve, he wondered if Snape was sabotaging him. He FAILED to acknowledge his own lack of work, too, which made it all the worse. I don't blame Snape for all of the failure, and I think he made some strides at first in the manner of compliments--backhanded compliments which failed to register with Harry--but I do think Harry's failure is somewhat understandable. Inadequate explanation of the REASON for learning this [doesn't *everyone* learn better when s/he knows the why behind it?]. Bad pairing. Teacher & student not making great strides to break history of bad blood. Harry's visions getting "worse." Mel: > BTW, Dumbledore does not blame Snape for the lesson failures, he > blames himself. SSSusan: True. Remember, though, what's behind that blame. He knows it was a bad match-up. He realizes that Snape couldn't put some things behind him. He doesn't want to blame Snape, because he knows he (DD) is the one who ordered Snape to give the lessons. But Snape did do some of the "failing" in not helping Harry understand (to the degree DD would allow that), not helping Harry understand more fully what was going to happen in these lessons, in not explaining much about how one clears one's mind, etc. Ultimately, though, I think DD is right--it was his unwillingness to come clean w/ Harry when he should have that contributed to Harry's not understanding the true situation and not being willing to trust Snape or to work hard. There's enough human failing to go around in this situation--DD, Snape, Harry--but the *responsibility* ultimately lies w/ DD, which is why, imo, he blamed himself. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 15 19:06:27 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:06:27 -0000 Subject: Proper care of the petrified was Re: Snape vs. RW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I do agree though that personal training comes in. I had some very unkind thoughts for Madam Pomfrey when Harry found the note in Hermione's hand. Just what kind of nursing care were those patients getting!? Obviously not range of motion or baths! > Mrs. Norris was completely frozen. I'm not sure what would happen if you tried to force a petrified person's joints--they might shatter. Perhaps Harry is just lucky he didn't damage Hermione's hand. Baths might be dangerous for the same reason--Hermione might break if she were dropped! I suggest a light dusting, daily. :) Pippin From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 19:09:35 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:09:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the adult (Was: Who's to blame for Occlumency?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101396 "Ava" observes: >That goes back to Mel's point. Does being on the 'right' side mean >all is forgiven? We are told that Dolores Umbridge is not a >supporter of Voldemort. Does that make her horrible pen-thing & >other charming behavior forgiveable? Mere peccadilloes in the >service of Our Side? "Not a supporter of Voldemort" does not necessarily equal "on the right side." Look at Umbridge's role model, Fudge. Look at Percy Weasley. As Dumbledore has said, being on the right side is a *decision.* Children can be raised in proximity to the right side, and to appropriate values (like the Weasleys). They can be raised in proximity to the wrong side, and to inappropriate values (like Draco Malfoy or Sirius Black). Or they can be raised in a vacuum (like Harry). They can, and often do, remain in the proximity they started in when they become adults. But they will, sooner or later, have to *decide* where they want to be. Part of the point of the Second Wizarding War is that *everyone* is going to have to decide, by word or deed, where they want to be, from children and teenagers on up to aged wizards. I think Umbridge's decision was made when she sent Dementors after Harry and his muggle relatives. I think Fudge is still waffling, because he now knows which side he *should* be on but still wants the easy way of being "undecided" -- I'd say "returning to childhood," but childhood is no protection from Voldemort as he very well knows. Draco Malfoy has chosen his family's side; Sirius Black rejected his family's side -- but so has Percy (temporarily, we all hope, but who knows?). Harry has been comfortably (if not safely) ensconced on the side that his parents and Dumbledore are on for the first few books. In OoP, he has to learn first hand what it is he is choosing -- danger, loss, and responsibility -- and what he is rejecting -- power, but power used to kill, torture, maim, frighten, and bully. He gets to see what Voldemort can do -- to the Longbottoms, to Bode, and finally to his friends and Sirius. He sees discord in the Order; he sees the influence of Voldemort helping to unsettle his refuge at Hogwarts. His attempt to perform an Unforgivable Curse isn't his first step toward evil -- it is his final proof to himself (and incidentally to Bellatrix, who will undoubtedly tell Voldemort) that he can't turn toward evil even if he wanted to. He doesn't really want to be evil the way Voldemort's people do, even if he gets angry enough to want to do what they do. He has in a way been making that choice all the time. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 15 19:09:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:09:56 -0000 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > > Someone said that the kids dressed in robes would not have the same > effect as an actual Dementor because, well, it was fake. Im quite > possibly missing a key piece of that idea but, again, I can't find > it. Please respond again after I throw out my rebuttal. > > Rebuttal: The Boggart Dementor was fake also yet it had the same > effects as a real one on Harry as he attempted to learn the Patronus > charm. So why would children dressed in robes effect the same way? > Providing Harry believed them to be dementors. > > Again, I feel like im missing something that i'm trying to say but I > can't figure out what it is. :-\ > I guess my whole point is what is the difference between a boggart > dementor and a Draco dementor? > The Boggart was an imitation of a Dementor; it took on all the attributes of a Dementor. Feeding on your fears it generates more fear. That's what it does, that is it's nature. It is a fear amplifier and broadcaster - directional, of course. A couple of teenagers stumbling round dressed in a sheet generate nothing except laughter. They do not have the ability to drain happiness or cause the re-call of horrible memories. Nobody, not even themselves in their wildest dreams would expect that they could. The very best they could do would be to *look* like a Dementor. Even then it wouldn't be long before somebody noticed that this Dementor walked instead of drifted. If you like, it's the comparison between the Basilisk's shed skin and the Basilisk itself. At first glance they may look the same but there's one hell of a difference. Kneasy From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jun 15 19:13:02 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:13:02 -0000 Subject: Snape Replace Dumbledore? (was Digest Number 4716) In-Reply-To: <15f.30c3dabf.2e009162@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101398 > Donna wrote: > There has been a lot of discussion about Snape/Harry, this thread in particular. One thing we do not know is why Snape has been denied the DADA position these years. In the place between sleep and awake it came to me that the reason must be so that when the time comes, his DADA skills which have been hidden until that moment, will be revealed. Most logically, they will be in defense of Harry against Voldemort. < ...or the DE's. And this would be particularly important if Dumbledore dies in Book 6! Harry must eventually fight Voldemort, but the only wizard who scares Voldie is protecting Harry right now--Dumbledore! So Voldie and JKR will have to figure out a way to remove him from the picture, right? My guess is a betrayal from someone in the OoP. Then Harry will need some kind of mentor to finish his training and protect him until the final battle--and I think Snape is it! Wouldn't that be the juiciest way for JKR to show Harry (and us) how wrong it is to judge a book by its cover? Plus, I kinda like Snape--even if he does have all the interpersonal skills of a rattlesnake. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 19:21:27 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:21:27 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101399 SSSusan: > > Del, I'm sure this has been said before in arguments over Snape's > > teaching methods, but for some reason it has really struck me > > today in your words. I think you're right. And I think I am > > beginning to understand why Teacher!Snape bothers Jenny and me > > and other teachers out there more than he bothers some others: > > we teach (or taught) and we can't STAND to see someone who > > clearly is an excellent teacher in some ways be such an awful > > teacher in other ways. It hits home harder w/ those of us who've > > been there perhaps. I truly cannot fathom a teacher "getting > > away with" what Snape gets away with. Parents or administrators > > would step in. Students would rebel. > > But Snape at Hogwarts is not RL. It's hard to let go of > > the, "Well, he SHOULD be able to change" or "He's an adult in a > > position of authority & responsibility--it's his JOB to see that > > he's effective." > > It's harder to step back from it when you've lived it, and the > > tendency to compare is strong. But I'll bet I can enjoy Snape > > more if I can manage to do so. :-) Potioncat: > Quick! Whoever wrote that is using polyjuice! That cannot be > SSSusan! ;-) Honestly, I've never seen you so soft on > Teacher!Snape. SSSusan: Ha ha ha! I'm just trying to see if I can bring Kneasy out to issue a congratulatory note to me. ;-) No, seriously, Del's words truly did hit me differently today that other arguments have before. And, Alla, to answer your question from a moment ago about how much slack we should cut Snape, I really don't know!! I suspect I'll waver from moment to moment, depending on the mood I'm in. But I did just realize that maybe I need to set aside RL teaching/learning situations a little more and think about the magical world as JKR has painted it: it's got more danger, and it's certainly less parental/authority hands-on than what U.S. teenagers would be experiencing. I'm sure I'll still always argue that if Snape were a good all-round teacher, he'd evaluate his methods more, but I'm shifting away from my vehement "grade abuse" stance of yore. Or maybe all this change of heart is all just movie contamination, since I've watched Rickman!Snape three times in the last 10 days and he may be affecting my judgment. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 19:23:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:23:22 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: snip. > Pippin: > Nobody's saying Snape's methods ought to be emulated in real > life. But there are real life teachers like Snape, and of course the > inconvenient thing about them is the same as in Snape's case. > Though his methods are horrible, they work. They wouldn't work > for everybody, but they work for him. He has enough presence to > keep his students from tuning him out, no matter how hard they > try. As long as his methods go on working, he isn't likely to > change. If he did start to change, his results (as measured by > OWLs and NEWTs) would probably get worse, because of the > learning curve. > But Snape's methods did not work as Occlumency showed. Although I grant you that it is very possible that Harry learned some Occlumency and will be able to apply it when push comes to shove. As we many times discussed though his banishing Voldie from his mind has nothing to do with Occlumency, so nope can't give Snape credit for that. :o) snip. Asking Snape to get over > his grudge against Harry was like asking a recovering alcoholic > to demonstrate drinking responsibly. > > Pippin Alla: That I strongly disagree, of course. I think it is hard but reasonable to ask Snape for that. Do you think he should not even try? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 19:25:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:25:57 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: snip. I'm sure I'll still always argue that if > Snape were a good all-round teacher, he'd evaluate his methods more, > but I'm shifting away from my vehement "grade abuse" stance of yore. Alla: O,noooo. Come back to the "Dark side" :o) > Or maybe all this change of heart is all just movie contamination, > since I've watched Rickman!Snape three times in the last 10 days and > he may be affecting my judgment. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Alla: Maybe it is. I'll tell you one thing. I was incredibly happy to see Snape shifting the Trio. Maybe he is concerened about their safety, or is he? :o) From gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 03:07:05 2004 From: gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net (Walter Gruver) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <1e9.22c845de.2dff7dc5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040615030705.77722.qmail@web80703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101402 Justine responds: > Draco doesn't know exactly what was behind Harry's > fainting spell, so he may have little reason to think > seeing a "scary" Dementor won't cause Harry to faint > once again. But, then again, of course, Malfoy can > be an insensitive little git... perhaps the thought > never occurred to him at all. It could merely have > been an impulsive prank... Walter: Malfoy's insecurites don't run very deep at all. Everything that he feels and thinks is pretty much on the surface. It's fair to assume that the Dementors checked all the cars on the train and that most of the students experienced the same emotional response that Ron expressed to Harry. Even assuming that, Draco isn't likely to connect the feeling of depression or unhappiness with the Dementor's presence and thereby come to the conclusion that the Dementors had a more drastic effect on Harry. I'd wager that in Malfoy's constant jealousy of Harry's popularity in the Wizarding world that Malfoy has never given Harry's emotion trauma a second thought. As JKR writes him, he probably is miserable on a regular basis when he is not at school. Any sense of happiness or contentment he might experience at school is only at the expense of those he truly dispises or regards as inferior (which quite frankly is just about everyone). From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 04:30:26 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:30:26 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE (Was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101403 >>>"darrin_burnett" wrote:> But it is not exactly a secret that Snape was a DE. It was said in open court. Rita Skeeter was there. Fudge should have known.<<< >>Pippin: It is a secret. Sirius does not know, in GoF, that Snape was a DE. In fact, he can't believe that Dumbledore would knowingly hire him if that were the case. (chapter 27, GoF)<< >Mel: Which is really something when you realize he's been incarcerated AS a DE, *with* DEs for TWELVE YEARS. Now that's just odd.He's heard NOTHING about Snape?Not even how that weasel slipped out of facing his charges...or how that snake pulled the wool over everyone's eyes...? Nothing? Either it's a BIG DARK SECRET all wrapped up in some magical-wizarding bow or Sirius Black is really, really dumb.< Stefanie: One little problem here -- ". . . Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know, He knows the headmaster, you see...Well, you know his opinion of Dumbledore - the man's such a Mudblood- lover - and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff." (Draco, GoF 11) Granted, if you want to disregard this, it *could* be passed off as Draco merely boasting...but Lucius has been shown to have a long arm when it comes to influence. If Karkaroff and Lucius are still friendly (and obviously Karkaroff knows about Snape's spyhood...being there and all) one would have to assume that this either never came up in their conversations (even considering their shared past experience of, well, eating death) or it *has* come up and consequently, Lucius knows about Snape. (We haven't exactly been given precedence of Karkaroff keeping mum about things) I'm inclined to believe that, at the least, Lucius may know, or Snape's spyhood is one of those buzzing things that "no one is supposed to know about." Now we also know from numerous citations that Snape and Lucius are on good relations. If Lucius knows that Snape is a spy, why on EARTH would he still be friendly with Snape. From crisarrieta at ig.com.br Tue Jun 15 06:38:38 2004 From: crisarrieta at ig.com.br (tina_00) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:38:38 -0000 Subject: Why book seven? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101404 Hello, everyone! I've tried to come up with a great post, but the long post I wrote would bore you all to death, so let me summarize it: why are we so sure the great battle between Harry and Voldemort will happen in book seven? >From J.K. Rowling site, the rumours section: """"Book six is going to be called 'Harry Potter and the Green Flame Torch' or 'the Mountain of Fantasy' and book seven is going to be called 'Harry Potter and the Fortress of Shadows' or 'the Forest of Shadows' JKR: Not even close! Who makes these up?! And this green torch business seems to be cropping up everywhere. Do you really think getting rid of Voldemort would be that easy?"""" Maybe she let it slip, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems she asks us if we think getting rid of Voldemort would involve a green flame torch, except that's the supposed title for book six, not seven! Yes, that's my theory: Harry will defeat Voldemort in book six. Voldemort, although many of you are willing to give him too much credit, has not been written as more than a poor attempt at villainy ? the way I see it, even if he is managing to spread horror, it's more thanks to his reputation than to his actions. He has failed at pretty much every plan he's had to get rid of Harry. We've been told about how great and awful he is, but the actions that most shock us were not committed directly by him. It was Bellatrix and her, well, "friends" who tortured Neville's parents; it was Bellatrix (her again!) who killed Sirius; it was Peter's betrayal that got the Potters killed. What I'm trying to say is that the awful actions we have seen more closely in the books were not Voldy's but his supporters', either trying to bring him back, or gain more power, or whatever (especially whatever ;-|). So maybe Harry should not look out for Voldemort as much, but for what will be left of his group after he is gone for good. vmonte wrote: "JKR has mentioned (I think someone pointed this out previously) in one of her talks (Albert Hall?) that she wanted to show in the Potter series how difficult fighting evil was because even when defeated someone is always ready to take over in it's place." I know vmonte hasn't written it in the same context I am thinking, but this quote fits in my theory. Book six could be about Harry vanquishing Voldemort, and book seven, about the faithful Death Eaters trying to continue the work their master had started, or even a whole new evil taking over and having to be defeated. I'm sorry, I wish I was more prolific in my explanations as some of you are, but I trust you got the idea, and I'd really like to know what you think. tina From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 12:38:36 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:38:36 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101405 > Del: > > So yes, if I were in Harry's shoes, I'd try and show respect to Snape, > just to get him off my back. Define 'show respect' when there is none? Snape - though he IS excellent at Potions, he a) abuses his power to take points/give detention in order to avenge something Harry's dead father did decades ago... b) is lowsy as a teacher c) at least was a Death Eater, and therefore the enemy Nah - I think his staying silent during class is enough, and Snape ought to behave himself. And yes, it's probably *easy* to grovel in front of someone who has the power to do you harm, it's not the *right* thing to do. Harry does do the right thing rather than the easy, doesn't he? I loved how he acted towards Dumbridge... Aside, I just wonder am I correct in assuming that those of you in the opinion that it's Harry who should do more, have never read or seen the movie based on the book (by the same name) _The Dead Poets' Society_? (I saw the movie first, and it was one of those waking moments of my life - Read the book later...). As I see it, Harry will defy those who try to deny free will, individuality & basic human rights. As long as Snape violates Harry's sense of what's right, Harry will continue to defy him. And so, IMO, he should. -- Finwitch From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 15 10:34:32 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:34:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101406 >>>From: Jenni A.M. Merrifield [mailto:strawberry at jamm.com] In response, Jen wrote: > Jen: He had to frame Sirius, though, because Sirius was the one > person who knew what happened and also knew he was an Animagus. > Sirius would vow to find Peter if it was the last thing he did. > Peter wouldn't have the same sense of security if he knew Sirius > was out there, hunting him down as Padfoot. Now Jeni responds: I don't see how Sirius knowing that Peter was an animagus would necessarily equate to him not believing that Peter was dead. After all, *Lupin* thought Peter was dead and *he* knew that Peter was an Animagus. Granted, he also thought that it was Sirius who killed Peter and Sirius could conceivably have an advantage over V. because he already know that Peter was an Animagus, but that seems somewhat iffy to me.<<< I thought it made sense that Pettigrew would frame Sirius for his own death because Sirius knew that Peter was the Potter's Secret-Keeper (having himself been the S-K and then changing over to Pettigrew). I don't think it had anything to do with Peter knowing Sirius knew he was an animagus. Barbara bd-bear From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jun 15 19:31:53 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:31:53 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <20040615030705.77722.qmail@web80703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101407 > Walter wrote: > As JKR writes him [Malfoy], he probably is miserable on a regular basis when he is not at school. Any sense of happiness or contentment he might experience at school is only at the expense of those he truly dispises or regards as inferior (which quite frankly is just about everyone). < Oh, I don't know. Isn't he probably in some clubs like Junior Aggrievement, Boy Louts or the Young Republicans? :) From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 15 08:10:53 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:10:53 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101408 "littleleahstill" wrote: > BTW: How did Sirius know where to find PP after Godric's Hollow? Maybe Sirius knew where Peter lived, and that was where he found him. No books here at work, so does anyone know if the location of the PP-blowup was ever actually stated? More sinister in my opinion was the excessively quick arrival of Fudge, who IIRC was the first on the scene. Still not certain why Sirius would have just sat down and laughed, however ... -- Phil From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 15 14:47:03 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:47:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rules of Respect was Re:Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101409 >>>From: potioncat [mailto:willsonkmom at msn.com] Going back to year one, day one of Potions, according to this set of rules, it was Harry who was in the wrong, not Snape. He was indeed, mouthing off and it doesn't matter that Snape was being mean at the time.<<< Where are you getting this from? The first thing that happens in Potions is that Snape demands for Harry to answer questions he couldn't possibly know (and knows he doesn't know, since he knows he's been living with muggles all his life). He also taunts Harry very early on, even though Harry is completely respectful at first. See below: "Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" Powdered root of what to an infusion of what? Harry glanced at Ron, who looked as stumped as he was; Hermione's hand had shot into the air. "I don't know, sir," said Harry. Snape's lips curled into a sneer. "Tut, tut -- fame clearly isn't everything." Then after more questioning: "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" (SS 138) Yes, there is a moment when Harry says something back to Snape, and Snape takes a point off of Gryffindor for his "cheek," but I wouldn't call that "mouthing off" at all. Then he takes points off Gryffindor for something he accuses Harry of doing, with no proof! You know, I stayed out of the Snape vs. Harry debate, and I don't want to start it again. But I just want to say that if you go by canon, there is a lot of evidence that Snape has prejudged Harry a lot more than the reverse. Snape was mean and unfair to Harry from day one. Harry reacted to that with confusion at first ("why did Snape hate him so much? SS 139) and then when it continued he developed the same reaction I would feel if someone hated me with no justification and treated me badly! Honestly, how many adults could handle that situation without feeling defensive and wanting to lash out at the person doing that to them. This is an 11-year old boy who has to deal with it! And just to weigh in on the respect issue, my personal opinion is that respect should be earned. If my 11 year old child (who I don't have yet) came home and told me that he was getting detentions and other punishments because his teacher hated him at first sight, I would probably go to the school administration. I would probably NOT expect or want my 11 year old to talk back to the teacher or be disrespectful, but as someone else said, there is a difference between behaving respectful and actually having respect for someone. I think Harry behaved respectful for the most part. Which is more than I can say of Snape's behavior towards Harry! Barbara aka bd-bear From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 15:51:49 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:51:49 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101410 I've heard rumors about this "little hint" but have yet to see the actual interview in which JKR actually makes this comment... But if we're speculating: "Justin was carried up to the hospital wing by Professor Flitwick and Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department..." (CoS 11) Professor Sinistra is barely mentioned in the books -- but being that she's the astronomy teacher (and we know how JKR likes to play with the significance of her teacher's names...) could her name and station be a hint at things to come? According to this fixed stars site (http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Sinistra.html), Sinistra is the star on the right hand of the constellation Ophiuchus -- the Serpent Bearer. In this case could, Sinistra being the right hand of the "serpent bearer" indicate that there's more than meets the eye to this mysterious professor? Also included on the site, which sounded quite eerie when translated into Potter-terms: "When Ophiuchus, encircled by the serpent's great coils, rises he renders the forms of snakes innocuous to those born under him. They will receive snakes into the folds of their flowing robes, and will exchange kisses with these poisonous monsters and suffer no harm." If Ophiuhcus, the serpent bearer, could represent LV, the image of him rising and those born (reborn into his following?) under him will have snakes [the dark mark??] in their flowing robes is a bit forboding. Also, the image of them kissing snakes or as they are described, "poisonous monsters" evokes images of certain kissing dark creatures whose trustworthiness we've been warned about for three books now. However, one must also take into account the other story regarding Ophiuchus -- Mythology dictates that this constellation is actually the body of Aesclepius, a known and supernaturally gifted healer, one whose greatest medical achievement was actually bringing someone back to life. Could Prof. Sinistra be useful in healing? Interestingly, Aesclepius was killed by Zeus while in the process of bringing Orion [The constellation that houses *Bellatrix*] back to life. This is just me going out on a limb, but I do think that it's odd for JKR to pick *this star* (not a particularly bright or well known star) out of the thousands of charted stars for her Astronomy teacher... From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Jun 15 19:56:08 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:56:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Proper care of the petrified (was: Re: Snape vs. RW) References: Message-ID: <001901c45312$cd1c09a0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 101411 Good evening! Pippin wrote: "Mrs. Norris was completely frozen. I'm not sure what would happen if you tried to force a petrified person's joints--they might shatter. Perhaps Harry is just lucky he didn't damage Hermione's hand. Baths might be dangerous for the same reason--Hermione I suggest a light dusting, daily. :)" Now me: Now, a really disgusting idea came to my mind... Reading your post I remembered a thought I had - and quickly banished - when watching the movie (I don't remember if I thought the same when reading the book, but I guess so; still sorry for referring to the film scene!). I wondered whether anything the petrified persons/animal ingested before being 'frozen' (don't flame me for using that term, I just wanted to use another one than 'petrified', *g*) remained in that very state or began to foul inside their stomach/digestive system. I came to the same conclusion as you did, Pippin. I agree that too rough handling of the bodies might have caused them to break, even though - depending on the seriousness of the 'injury - that might possibly be mended after the administration of the mandrake potion (what was its name again?). But in this context I ask why it was possible for the bodies to fall (they surely did, didn't they?) without breaking. Perhaps the indirect view of the Basilisk's stare caused them to 'just' become petrified like passing out - with the possibility to soften the fall? Well, now I posted these thoughts even though I never thought i would. Opinions? : ) SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 19:36:48 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:36:48 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: snip > Aside, I just wonder am I correct in assuming that those of you in > the opinion that it's Harry who should do more, have never read or > seen the movie based on the book (by the same name) _The Dead Poets' > Society_? (I saw the movie first, and it was one of those waking > moments of my life - Read the book later...). Alla: I heard about the movie. but I did not see it. I guess I should rent it. > As I see it, Harry will defy those who try to deny free will, > individuality & basic human rights. As long as Snape violates Harry's > sense of what's right, Harry will continue to defy him. And so, IMO, > he should. > > -- Finwitch Alla: It sounds beatiful and I want to agree with you, but I am afraid that at some critical moment it will backfire badly again. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 19:40:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:40:14 -0000 Subject: Rules of Respect was Re:Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: potioncat [mailto:willsonkmom at m...] > > Going back to year one, day one of Potions, according to this set of > rules, it was Harry who was in the wrong, not Snape. He was indeed, > mouthing off and it doesn't matter that Snape was being mean at > the time.<<< > Barbara: > Where are you getting this from? The first thing that happens in Potions is > that Snape demands for Harry to answer questions he couldn't possibly know > (and knows he doesn't know, since he knows he's been living with muggles all > his life). He also taunts Harry very early on, even though Harry is > completely respectful at first. See below: > > "Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root > of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" > Powdered root of what to an infusion of what? Harry glanced at Ron, who > looked as stumped as he was; Hermione's hand had shot into the air. > "I don't know, sir," said Harry. > Snape's lips curled into a sneer. > "Tut, tut -- fame clearly isn't everything." > > Then after more questioning: > > "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" > > (SS 138) > > Yes, there is a moment when Harry says something back to Snape, and Snape > takes a point off of Gryffindor for his "cheek," but I wouldn't call that > "mouthing off" at all. Then he takes points off Gryffindor for something he > accuses Harry of doing, with no proof! > Alla: Word of agreement. I said many times what I think about the start of their "healthy" relationship, so I don't want to say it again. I also remember myself and Potioncat coming to the agreement that there were no assignments given yet, so there is no way Harry could have learned all that. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 19:42:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:42:49 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101414 Phil Boswell wrote: > Still not certain why Sirius would have just sat down and laughed, > however ... Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... It seems to me that the report of Sirius laughing after the blown-up street always weighed heavily against him, and even when we did discover his innocence, it's not one of those things which instantly made sense in light of the new facts. Why WAS he laughing? Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 19:45:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:45:54 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Phil Boswell wrote: > > Still not certain why Sirius would have just sat down and laughed, > > however ... > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made > sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an > ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of > way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... > > It seems to me that the report of Sirius laughing after the blown- up > street always weighed heavily against him, and even when we did > discover his innocence, it's not one of those things which instantly > made sense in light of the new facts. Why WAS he laughing? Alla: Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As if he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that is why he was laughing. From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 16:08:40 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:08:40 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101416 > > Mel: > > You didn't answer the questions. Attempts at distraction will win > > you no points. Darrin: > Oooh, nasty. If I was a weaker-willed poster, I might go crying to the Admins to > post the polite and nice rules again. Ava: Just have to ask - what was so nasty about a comment that your statements were not on point? You needn't answer that as it is also utterly off topic, but I do wonder why you took such offense. Darrin: > I just wanted to make sure we didn't lose sight of what Snape was trying to > accomplish. Such things are very indicative of the man's character. > > Or lack thereof, as the case may be. Ava: I'm sorry; I have trouble reading between the lines, myself. When you speak of "what Snape was trying to accomplish", are you referring to what he was trying to accomplish with the Occlumency lessons? DO you think he had an ulterior motive there? Because if you can back that up, it's an argument of interest, whether one agrees or not. Mel: > I disagree with you that Harry had no 'goal' in beginning > Occlumency lessons. I've heard this argument before and it > never washes. I used the same one trying to get out of > Algebra and it didn't work then, either. (I could be snarky > here and say he had a goal of not learning it because it was > Snape). He was instructed clearly by DUMBLEDORE to pay > attention, work hard and do everything his teacher told him > to do. When he whined about it this assertion was backed up > by..OH! Lupin! Whaddya know! Harry's goal was to LEARN > OCCLUMENCY TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY. Harry's goal was to > CLOSE HIS MIND FROM VOLDEMORT. That's what he was told by > Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin. That should have been enough. > Next you're going to claim he thought that the 'real' reason > he was being made to learn Occlumency was to be found in > Snape's Pensieve. Darrin: > Perhaps you should not worry about what I will claim next, > since you look at the world so differently than I do. Again, > polite and nice wins the race. :) Ava: I assume you're referring to Lupin? Mmmm - we KNOW how effective he was in nicely & politely controlling his buddies Potter & Black while he was a prefect - not very. Darrin: > He was told to do something, but never told why. For Harry, who > for all his bleating and 15-year-old self-centeredness deserved > to know a bit more. Ava: And whose decision was that, not to tell him more? I don't put much stock in what the films contribute to the discussion, but I did think it was interesting in PoA when Snape asks DD if Potter should be told more info. He gets vetoed. Whether that's an accurate reflection or not, it is nonetheless DD's decision re Occlumency that Harry should be kept in the dark. (Admittedly, that's pretty much a guarantee of rebellion from most 15 year olds, esp. Harry.) Darrin: > And again, it is about trust. What exactly in Harry and Snape's > relationship would give him reason to trust Snape? Ava: If nothing else, because he's been told to, by DD and Lupin? > And to answer the question, Harry did do his part to send the > lessons off the rails when he dove into the Pensieve. But you > know what? Thanks to Snape, it was a train wreck long before. Ava: It was Snape's fault, of course. Harry was practicing Occlumency SO assiduously, and Snape just did his best to discourage the poor lad, didn't he? Mel: > Harry's had 5 years to get familiar with Snape's teaching style > for better or worse. You'd think by now he'd have figured out > he's not going to get a sweet every time he answers a question > correctly. Darrin: > Ah, so Harry should be USED to it by now. Perhaps he should bend > over and say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Ava: Isn't that sort of implied in the career advice McGonagall gives Harry - he's going to need Potions next year, & he'll need Snape's recommendation. How do you suppose he's going to manage that? By acting like an ass? Mel: > BTW, Dumbledore does not blame Snape for the lesson failures, he > blames himself. Darrin: > Yes, for actually believing that Snape could be a grownup! Read > between the lines once in a while, why don'tcha? > > Oops, there I go again. Ava: Hypocrisy is a lovely thing, isn't it? Anyway, what I read into the "some scars run too deep" speech is a hint at a measure of self-rebuke that may well include, but is certainly not limited to, a mistaken belief in Snape's ability to 'get over it.' Ava From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 15 18:54:06 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:54:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101417 >>>From: Jason [mailto:shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com] Rebuttal: The Boggart Dementor was fake also yet it had the same effects as a real one on Harry as he attempted to learn the Patronus charm. So why would children dressed in robes effect the same way? Providing Harry believed them to be dementors.<<< My understanding is that a Boggart can mimic the real thing. Draco and his buddies just had robes on. They wouldn't affect Harry the same as a real Dementor, but I'm sure Draco and his friends thought the sight of them would scare him enough to do damage. Barbara bd-bear From AntaresTCH at aol.com Tue Jun 15 19:02:31 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:02:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in tim... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101418 <<>> The part you are referring to is in "OOTP, in my hardcover copy, page #582. It was after Harry's interview appeared in "The Quibbler," and it says, "The teachers were, of course, forbidden from mentioning the interview by Educational Decree Number Twnety-six, but they found way to express their feelings about it all the same." Several professors express their gratitude in different ways and then the paragraph goes on to say: "and Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divination and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children." Hope this helps, Cheryl H p.s. I'm new here, and happy to be aboard. "The spiders! The spiders are making me tapdance." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AntaresTCH at aol.com Tue Jun 15 19:09:05 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:09:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101419 As much as I don't Sirius to be dead, remember in GOF, in my edition, page 697 (chapter 36), Harry is telling how the images came out of LV's wand. "Diggory came back to life?" said Sirius sharply. "No spell can reawaken the dead," said Dumbledore heavily. Unless, by some miracle or unrevealed plot twist, Sirius did not die when he fell through the arch of the death chamber. Cheryl H. "The spiders. The spiders are makiing me tap dance." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 19:11:27 2004 From: themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com (Mac) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:11:27 -0000 Subject: Petunia not the latebloomer, but magic nonetheless In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > As for Dudders, the same applies, really. If Dudders had any magic > in that plump body of his, where's _his_ invitation? > > So, I'm with you on the possibility of Mrs. Figg, and I could also > see Hagrid practicing/using magic to fight in the war, though I'm not > sure he actually qualifies, as he's not exactly a late bloomer, just > uneducated. > Well, then I am confused, it you were a squib, weren't that noted at birth that you were not a magical child?? So, your knowledge of the wizarding world would be from your parents vision or siblings and friends. Persephone From AntaresTCH at aol.com Tue Jun 15 19:12:35 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:12:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101421 <<>>> Students of this age do not think through to the consequences the way an adult does. The teenage brain is still developing. Cheryl H. p.s. BTW, I teach 8th grade. They do not think past the reaction to the prank. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bd-bear at verizon.net Tue Jun 15 16:17:20 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:17:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101422 >>>From: Wanda Sherratt [mailto:wsherratt3338 at rogers.com] Outing someone who has AIDS might be necessary to protect others.<<< WHAT!? I really hope you don't mean this, because I don't think anyone who has AIDS ~needs~ to be outed unless you know someone is having sex with them and doesn't know they're infected. But I think they were discussing a teacher being outed, and in that case, there is no danger to anyone, even if the teacher did have AIDS. Barbara bd-bear From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 15 20:08:37 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:08:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigr ew, questions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101423 Alla: Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As if he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that is why he was laughing. Gina: I agree because he did not know what Pettigrew was up to when he sliced off his own finger and started yelling things that did not make sense. We know by Sirius seeing Pettigrew in the newspaper pic that he did not know Peter was alive so personally I think Sirius really believed that Pettigrew blew himself up. I mean - cutting his finger off would seem like he was going to do a really big spell to me then when he blew himself up - I personally would have thought that hilarious until I realized that he intended me to be blamed for it. Pettigrew was not a great wizard like James or Sirius so blowing himself up on accident would not be out of his reach. Sirius did not get a trial either so I believe that the MoM was in on it. Gina - who like Sirius would have laughed endlessly if he HAD blown himself up for real!! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wood64dragon at yahoo.com.au Tue Jun 15 04:35:01 2004 From: wood64dragon at yahoo.com.au (Kate Cheng) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:35:01 -0000 Subject: Trelawney and her Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101424 Jen Reese wrote: > Right now, I can't remeber one instance where Trelawney has used a > wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned > she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene > or find it in the books. Prof Trelawney's area of expertise is Divination. She has foreseen the future at least two times that we know of: once before Harry was born; then just before Peter Pettigrew joined Lord Voldemort in Prisoner... Kate From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 15 20:10:18 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:10:18 -0000 Subject: The Hat Test (was Re: Slytherin House : evil ? (was : Cheering on Harry )) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" > > Hat is testing Harry; Hat is giving Harry his first choice to make. Hat > goes on to needle Harry in COS about him going to Slytherin; Harry flatly > rejects the idea and puts Hat back on Dumbledore's shelf. > > Then, in COS, what comes to Harry's aid along with Fawks? Our friendly > Hat...which gives him the Gryffindor Sword. > > So, methinks Hat is sincere, but it's also doing its part as a guardian and > giving whatever testing is necessary to prove a student's true nature...or > disprove it. > Um. Can't agree, I'm afraid. Has Harry had his lecture about choices before he's Sorted? No, he hasn't even met Dumbledore. He doesn't really have a clue what's going on. He's heard other people's opinions of the Houses but none of them are exactly objective. He's brand spanking new to the WW - it's his first full day and for sure he's anti-Draco on a personal level. He wants nothing to do with him. He dislikes him from the first and his behaviour on the train confirms his feelings. If Draco hadn't annoyed him in Diagon Alley he wouldn't have known enough to ask Hagrid about Slytherin and Hufflepuff in the first place. He's aware from what Ron and Draco says that Houses seem to run in families, or that families run in Houses, though there are exceptions. Strangely, he never asks which Houses his parents belonged to - ever. We know James was in Gryffindor - is there any confirmation which House Lily was in? The Hat sees what Olivander glimpses, Harry's potential. Some never achieve their potential, but would the Hat know that, or care? I doubt it, it's more interested in slotting students into Houses where they'll fit and where their potential might be best realised. That's it's function. It has one weakness. As JKR said when asked if it was truthful - "It's certainly sincere." Which isn't the same thing at all. It's possible to be perfectly sincere but wrong. But was the Hat? It was with Percy - he's heavily into ambition these days, probably always was. I've mumbled on about the Hat before - it could have been fixed. In the foursome - Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, it's possible to identify all four Houses - Slytherin, Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff respectively. Similarly, you can do the same exercise with the Marauders. Is the Hat (or DD) putting action to the advice to combine all four Houses? Or at least the attributes of all four Houses in the form of typical student members. It spends an awfully long time with Neville, and Hermione is a Ravenclaw par excellance. Did it happen in the previous generation too? We're told that the Hat has made similar songs "in times of great danger" - when Voldy first rose, perhaps? Idle speculation but an intriguing outside chance. Kneasy From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 20:12:16 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:12:16 -0000 Subject: Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101426 > Someone asked: > > >But I have one thought. When I read SS's claim that he could 'put a stopper > >on death,' I > >interpreted it not as a claim that he could stop someone from dying, but > >that he could put > >Death itself in a bottle--that is to say, he could brew the potion-making > >equivalent of the > >AK curse, the ultimate poison. Did anyone else read it this way? > > Yes, that's what I thought from the beginning, and I suspect that such a > poison -- or, equally likely, a poison that can counterfeit death -- will > show up some time during these adventures. Remember the trouble such a > poison caused in *Romeo and Juliet?* > > > Janet Anderson Antosha: Janet, I was the one who made the observation. Your take on it is very interesting--since it would offer ways through and around several of the 'prophecies' that have attached themselves to Harry. Though I have always loved Romeo and Juliet (I've been in it twice), I have to admit, I always hate the ending. Couldn't he just wait a MINUTE..... I'm hoping JKR doesn't take us down the Ironic Tragedy path, 'cause I'll be really upset if she does. Antosha, who isn't counting on a happy ending, but hopes for one anyway. From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Tue Jun 15 03:10:18 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:10:18 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101427 Kneasy: > The hurt you mention is deliberately placed there by JKR; she's admitted as > much. In one interview she tells of a mother who wrote to her saying that > she didn't like her children reading such things. JKR responded saying that > in that case they'd better not read any more of the books, because Harry > was going to continue to suffer. There must be a reason for all this hurt > you dislike; unless of course JKR has sadistic tendencies and enjoys putting > Harry through the mill. Now, now. Let's try not to be nasty. Everyone knows that JKR put that in the books, who else could have put it there? And no one expects that Harry Potter will suddenly turn into Pollyanna. All that is being said is that Snape's attitude and remarks are deeply hurtful. It really doesn't matter whether he is playing a part or not. It also is beside the point what his motivations are. His remarks and attitude are deeply hurtful, period. It may turn out that Snape is playing a part. I personally deeply doubt it. I think all the evidence points to the fact that he genuinely hates and despises Harry, and Dumbledore, as the Headmaster himself says, underestimated the depths of Snape's feeling. I may, however, be proved wrong. It may turn out that some students react well to Snape's methods. We don't know. The idea that he is an excellent Potions master and his students do well is pure speculation. My own experience as a teacher is that very few students react well to such methods, and the result is almost always poor learning and deep emotional pain. But it may turn out that Snape is an exception. Snape certainly gives the students experience in dealing with nasty, unkind people, who make up a distressingly large percentage of the population. It is to remember that even JKR admits that Harry's suffering is extreme and extraordinary. She has also expressed on several occassions amazement that anyone would actually defend Snape. Is she correct? Who knows? Literature has a life of its own beyond the author's intent. But while we are discussing what she has and has not put in, let us remember that she acknowledges the hurt that Snape does, and she does not seem to be very sympathetic or forgiving toward him, purpose or not. Dzeytoun From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Tue Jun 15 20:05:13 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:05:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101428 Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... It seems to me that the report of Sirius laughing after the blown-up street always weighed heavily against him, and even when we did discover his innocence, it's not one of those things which instantly made sense in light of the new facts. Why WAS he laughing? Lady Macbeth: Because Sirius is a nutter? That's part of the reason I adore him - I have no doubt in my mind that he's not all "right in the head" as some people would put it. Those ARE the type who are dubbed "insane" after all, whether it be "temporary insanity" or "incurable insanity". "Normal" people cry, scream, rant, beg, etc in such a situation, but but nutters laugh their bum off. (Notice how many times I've used quotes in this paragraph - it indicates something of my opinion of traditional definitions of "normal" and "insanity".) -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 20:16:21 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:16:21 -0000 Subject: Trelawney and her Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kate Cheng" wrote: > Jen Reese wrote: > > Right now, I can't remeber one instance where Trelawney has used a > > wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned > > she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene > > or find it in the books. > > Prof Trelawney's area of expertise is Divination. She has foreseen > the future at least two times that we know of: once before Harry was > born; then just before Peter Pettigrew joined Lord Voldemort in > Prisoner... > > Kate Antosha: Aside from the two 'true' prophecies that we know of, no, I don't recall Cassandra Trelawney ever managing a spell at all. Nonetheless, if she were a squib, Dumbledore wouldn't have interviewed her for the position of Divination teacher at all, would he? She must have graduated from Hogwarts-- or perhaps one of the overseas schools. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 15 20:18:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:18:02 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101430 Pippin: > Asking Snape to get over his grudge against Harry was like asking a recovering alcoholic to demonstrate drinking responsibly. > > Alla: > That I strongly disagree, of course. I think it is hard but > reasonable to ask Snape for that. > > Do you think he should not even try? Pippin: I think he *did* try. At least, he agreed to teach Harry. But just as there was no one to tell Harry what he needed to do to master Occlumency, other than sink or swim, Snape had no one to help him master his feelings about Harry. Dumbledore couldn't manage it either, remember. As long as we're all bringing our professional expertise to bear, I will say that from a RW management perspective, Dumbledore's failure was classic. He failed to communicate his objectives clearly, and because of that, no one in the chain of responsibility deserves more blame than him for the failure to achieve them. He failed to communicate his objectives clearly because he was muddled about them, and he was muddled because, as often happens in a family business, his business and personal roles were in conflict. It was his job, as headmaster and head of the Order, to prepare Harry to meet his future. But it was a future that, as Harry's father substitute, he could not harden himself to face. Dumbledore let the competition--ie Voldemort--get ahead of him. If Dumbledore had told Harry everything at the end of the third year, then there would have been ample time before Voldemort's return for Harry to learn Occlumency from Dumbledore. But Dumbledore's organizations did achieve most of their objectives. The Ministry and the Daily Prophet were forced to recognize Voldemort's return. Harry 's mind was secured from possession. There may even have been a baby step toward improving relations between Snape and Harry--they may hate each other more, but they understand one another better now. That is progress of a sort. Sirius is dead and that (sorry, SAD DENIAL) can't be mended. Still, I suppose if you asked Sirius whether he would sacrifice his life so that Harry could have a few terms at Hogwarts without the shadow of the prophecy hanging over him, he would have agreed. It's clear from the way Lupin cuts off the conversation in OOP and from the fleeting glance he exchanges with Sirius, that Sirius could have told Harry more than he did. Pippin From gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 03:30:04 2004 From: gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net (Walter Gruver) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040615033004.37784.qmail@web80708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101431 vmonte wrote: > By the way I think that DD has been time-traveling through-out the > books. I've started putting together a list of curious > statements/situations. Jen Reese wrote: > In the book, Dumbledore doesn't go as in-depth on the Time-turner, > but he knows the rules, and is aware Hermione has a TT. Perhaps > that's even *his* TT they use? He's just full of useful magical > objects. Walter: DD time traveling as a method to keep track of everything that is going on is interesting, but probably not very practical. One of the problems with time traveling is that the more you do it, the greater the risk of running into yourself somewhere. After a while it would be nearly impossible, even for someone of DD's talent and intelligence, to keep accurate track of every moment in time he would have had to return to in order to know what he knows. DD has a number of other talents that lend themselves to explaning his universal knowledge of all events (i.e. Occulmency, possibly some talent in Divination (doubtful, but you never know), etc.). Walter From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 15 20:21:01 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:21:01 -0000 Subject: Rules of Respect was Re:Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101433 Barbara wrote: > And just to weigh in on the respect issue, my personal opinion is that > respect should be earned. If my 11 year old child (who I don't have yet) > came home and told me that he was getting detentions and other punishments > because his teacher hated him at first sight, I would probably go to the > school administration. I would probably NOT expect or want my 11 year old to > talk back to the teacher or be disrespectful, but as someone else said, > there is a difference between behaving respectful and actually having > respect for someone. I think Harry behaved respectful for the most part. > Which is more than I can say of Snape's behavior towards Harry! Potioncat: Oops. I was caught in the cross fire of my usual pro-Snape post and respect earned vrs shown. Oh, if I was a parent and my child had Snape, Snape would be gone. And I wouldn't particularly care whether the child had shown respect or not. (Of course, I don't play by the old rules of respect.) The purpose of my rather long post was to say that according to the old rules of "respect your elders," Harry should be respectful at all times and that it wasn't cowardly of him to do so. (actually it may have been me you were quoting.) Unfortunately, Harry doesn't have a parent who do battle with the adults. And I suspect that if he went to McGonagall she wouldn't be much help either. (Although that might be interesting to see.) Is Snape a good teacher? Well, his students do well on standardized tests. And don't these tests show us which teachers are the good ones? Isn't that why we like having our kids take them? Sorry, wrong soap box. Potioncat (who has also read Alla's reply and can't believe I've gotten myself into this so soon!) (Hi, Alla) :-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 15 20:21:04 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:21:04 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > Ha ha ha! I'm just trying to see if I can bring Kneasy out to issue > a congratulatory note to me. ;-) > > Or maybe all this change of heart is all just movie contamination, > since I've watched Rickman!Snape three times in the last 10 days and > he may be affecting my judgment. > Suspicions rather than congratulations. The last time there was a conversion like this was just outside Damascus a loooong time ago. I think you should confirm your credentials as a Snape-aholic by composing a suitable paean of praise in his honour. Without mentioning or referring to Alan Rickman. After all, he's not canon, is he? Kneasy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 20:21:09 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:21:09 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" > wrote: > > Kneasy earlier: > > > The hurt you mention is deliberately placed there by JKR; she's > > admitted as > > > much. In one interview she tells of a mother who wrote to her > > saying that > > > she didn't like her children reading such things. JKR responded > > saying that > > > in that case they'd better not read any more of the books, > because > > Harry > > > was going to continue to suffer. There must be a reason for all > > this hurt > > > you dislike; unless of course JKR has sadistic tendencies and > > enjoys putting > > > Harry through the mill. > > Dzeytoun: > > Now, now. Let's try not to be nasty. Everyone knows that JKR put > > that in the books, who else could have put it there? And no one > > expects that Harry Potter will suddenly turn into Pollyanna. All > > that is being said is that Snape's attitude and remarks are deeply > > hurtful. It really doesn't matter whether he is playing a part or > > not. It also is beside the point what his motivations are. His > > remarks and attitude are deeply hurtful, period. > > > snip. > > > Alla: > > > I hope mods will forgive me this stupidly exciting post, but > Dzeytoun, is that you? :o) > > > I am so happy to see one of my all time favourite fanfic writers join > this group. > > > To bring it on point. Yes, I agree. It absolutely does not matter > whether Snape is playing a part or not. > > > Even if he speaks those words "just for fun", it makes him a bad > person. The person, who fights for Light, but a bad person > nevertheless > Even if his marks in class do not matter at all, him throwing Harry's > potion on the floor makes him a bad person. > > > No, "nice" does not necessarily equals "good", but "kind" usually > does and "nasty" in itself in many ethical systems is considered > unethical. > > > > Alla From gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 04:16:23 2004 From: gruverbabies at sbcglobal.net (Walter Gruver) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040615041623.36006.qmail@web80702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101436 Snape's dislike for Harry seems to come from two (2) avenues: 1- His extreme dislike of James has haunted him into adulthood. I'm not trying to suggest that James is actually "haunting" Severus, but Serverus' dislike of James is complicated by the fact that James and Lily were murdered by someone that we are led to believe that Serverus believes is evil. This creates a certain sense of pity in Serverus' mind for the way in which James and Lily lost their lives, but in no way detracts from Serverus' utter contempt for the person that James once was as teenager. I would be surprised if Serverus and James had much interaction in the original OoTP. 2- Snape believes that Harry is so much like his father that Harry has the predispostion to let the inherent popularity of his "defeat" of Voldemort go to his head. Snape has been way off the mark on this one since day one. It was Snape that gave Harry the "new celebrity" monologue in the first Potions lesson of PS/SS. I don't think that Serverus has ever given much consideration to the life that Harry has lived in the care (if you can call it that) of the Dursley's. If you consider that Snape seemed a bit taken back by Harry's memories of Marge's dog chasing Harry up a tree at the Dursley's during Occulmency lessons, it appears that Serverus was just beginning to get a glimpse of how "celebrated" Harry's life had been up to that point. Harry has never really tried to use his "celebrity" status in the WW to get anything. He has worked his way through an unfamiliar world trying to catch up on the things he was never privy to while living with the Dursleys (though if he read like Herminone he would not have this learning curve problem). If Harry had not ventured into the Pensive to see Serverus' memories it is quite possible that the constant exposure to each others thoughts and memories might have mellowed this relationship to a certain extent. At this point we have to wait and see how JKR plays out Harry's knowledge of how things between Serverus and James really were and that reflects on what Harry finds out about his father in books 6 and 7. Walter From edginsburg at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 01:29:26 2004 From: edginsburg at hotmail.com (e ginsburg) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:29:26 -0400 Subject: Harry to die in 6 or 7? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101437 I am sorry. I doubt that will happen. I have no doubt that his substitute father will die. the groundskeeper, the tall one..what is his name. I bet that Harry will become an instructor. or even Head instructor. ed From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 20:23:31 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:23:31 -0000 Subject: Prof Sinistra (wasRe: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > I've heard rumors about this "little hint" but have yet to see the > actual interview in which JKR actually makes this comment... > > But if we're speculating: > "Justin was carried up to the hospital wing by Professor Flitwick > and Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department..." (CoS 11) > > Professor Sinistra is barely mentioned in the books -- but being > that she's the astronomy teacher (and we know how JKR likes to play > with the significance of her teacher's names...) could her name and > station be a hint at things to come? > > According to this fixed stars site > (http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Sinistra.html), Sinistra is the > star on the right hand of the constellation Ophiuchus -- the Serpent > Bearer. In this case could, Sinistra being the right hand of > the "serpent bearer" indicate that there's more than meets the eye > to this mysterious professor? > > Also included on the site, which sounded quite eerie when translated > into Potter-terms: "When Ophiuchus, encircled by the serpent's great > coils, rises he renders the forms of snakes innocuous to those born > under him. They will receive snakes into the folds of their flowing > robes, and will exchange kisses with these poisonous monsters and > suffer no harm." > > If Ophiuhcus, the serpent bearer, could represent LV, the image of > him rising and those born (reborn into his following?) under him > will have snakes [the dark mark??] in their flowing robes is a bit > forboding. Also, the image of them kissing snakes or as they are > described, "poisonous monsters" evokes images of certain kissing > dark creatures whose trustworthiness we've been warned about for > three books now. > > However, one must also take into account the other story regarding > Ophiuchus -- Mythology dictates that this constellation is actually > the body of Aesclepius, a known and supernaturally gifted healer, > one whose greatest medical achievement was actually bringing someone > back to life. Could Prof. Sinistra be useful in healing? > Interestingly, Aesclepius was killed by Zeus while in the process of > bringing Orion [The constellation that houses *Bellatrix*] back to > life. > > This is just me going out on a limb, but I do think that it's odd > for JKR to pick *this star* (not a particularly bright or well known > star) out of the thousands of charted stars for her Astronomy > teacher... Antosha: Your analysis is very thought-provoking. Nonetheless, doesn't it seem likely that Prof. Sinistra's name has more of a connection with Latin meaning: "Left side" and, therefore (no thunderbolts from the southpaws, please, I'm just looking at the classical mythology here) "evil"? I had no idea there was such a star as "Sinistra" though. So I'll have to think about it.... I'm surprised we haven't seen much of Prof. Sinistra at all, since the trio and their friends have been taking Astronomy since the first year, right? I mean, that we don't know Prof. Vector or the Ancient Runes professor makes sense--Harry doesn't take those classes (even if Hermione does). Hmmmm. I wonder what Harry is going to take to replace Divination in sixth year???? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 20:25:33 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:25:33 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigr ew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101439 Alla: > Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As if > he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that > is why he was laughing. Gina: > I agree because he did not know what Pettigrew was up to when he > sliced off his own finger and started yelling things that did not > make sense. We know by Sirius seeing Pettigrew in the newspaper pic > that he did not know Peter was alive so personally I think Sirius > really believed that Pettigrew blew himself up. I mean - cutting > his finger off would seem like he was going to do a really big > spell to me then when he blew himself up - I personally would have > thought that hilarious until I realized that he intended me to be > blamed for it. Pettigrew was not a great wizard like James > or Sirius so blowing himself up on accident would not be out of his > reach. > > Sirius did not get a trial either so I believe that the MoM was in > on it. SSSusan: Oh!!!!!!!!!!! That's a possibility I hadn't considered! Sirius thought Pettigrew really had blown himself up? Then, when the MoM showed up and found all those muggles dead **and** assumed Pettigrew was dead, too, Sirius got arrested as the only possible candidate? I guess I've always assumed that Sirius KNEW Pettigrew was still alive, just didn't know where he'd gotten off to. And that when he saw the photo in the Daily Prophet he just realized WHERE he was, not that he was alive. Hmmmm. Feeling rather confused, Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 20:42:25 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:42:25 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101440 SSSusan: > > Ha ha ha! I'm just trying to see if I can bring Kneasy out to > > issue a congratulatory note to me. ;-) > > > > Or maybe all this change of heart is all just movie > > contamination, since I've watched Rickman!Snape three times in > > the last 10 days and he may be affecting my judgment. Kneasy: > Suspicions rather than congratulations. The last time there was a > conversion like this was just outside Damascus a loooong time ago. > I think you should confirm your credentials as a Snape-aholic by > composing a suitable paean of praise in his honour. Without > mentioning or referring to Alan Rickman. After all, he's not canon, > is he? SSSusan [chortling]: Saul/Paul checking in! Fair enough to be suspicious, rather than congratulatory, Kneasy. I must confess that I am not sure I could compose such a paean of praise. I believe I could do it w/o mentioning Rickman (though it would be *infinitely easier* if I did get to mention him), but I'm not sure I could compose it such that it contained *only* praise. Would that be a requirement??? Off this thread a bit, but still somewhat appropriate, I find it amusing that in my work, managing a library video collection, I just this moment picked up a video entitled The Teenage Brain: A World of Their Own, with the following description: "Research has shown that during puberty, when the brain begins teeming with hormones, the pre-frontal cortex, the center of reasoning and impulse control, is still a work in progress." Hee. I'm sure some would find that an apt description of our Harry? Siriusly Snapey Susan From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 20:45:48 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:45:48 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigr ew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Alla: > > Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As if > > he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that > > is why he was laughing. > > Gina: > > I agree because he did not know what Pettigrew was up to when he > > sliced off his own finger and started yelling things that did not > > make sense. We know by Sirius seeing Pettigrew in the newspaper pic > > that he did not know Peter was alive so personally I think Sirius > > really believed that Pettigrew blew himself up. I mean - cutting > > his finger off would seem like he was going to do a really big > > spell to me then when he blew himself up - I personally would have > > thought that hilarious until I realized that he intended me to be > > blamed for it. Pettigrew was not a great wizard like James > > or Sirius so blowing himself up on accident would not be out of his > > reach. > > > > Sirius did not get a trial either so I believe that the MoM was in > > on it. > > > SSSusan: > Oh!!!!!!!!!!! That's a possibility I hadn't considered! Sirius > thought Pettigrew really had blown himself up? Then, when the MoM > showed up and found all those muggles dead **and** assumed Pettigrew > was dead, too, Sirius got arrested as the only possible candidate? > > I guess I've always assumed that Sirius KNEW Pettigrew was still > alive, just didn't know where he'd gotten off to. And that when he > saw the photo in the Daily Prophet he just realized WHERE he was, not > that he was alive. > > Hmmmm. > > Feeling rather confused, > Siriusly Snapey Susan (teilani) Susan here: I was never really sure whether Sirius knew that Peter killed himself or not. But I did think the laughter, which I took to be rather hysterical, was because after everything that had just happened (finding the Potters dead, realizing Peter was responsible and that HE [Sirius] was the one who handed J&L to Peter,) when he finally got to confront Peter and PP blew up the muggles, Sirius _realized_ he'd been completely set up. Peter, whether alive or no, wasn't there to take the blame. Sirius was. Not only did this little pipsqueak manage to get the Potters killed, he also managed to outsmart the very clever and brave Sirius. In a nutshell, I think that at that moment when the street got blown up, Sirius realized just how deep and conniving PP's role was, and that he (Sirius) was being set up once again by PP, this time to take the fall. Thoughts? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 15 20:55:15 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:55:15 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > > > Now, now. Let's try not to be nasty. Everyone knows that JKR put > that in the books, who else could have put it there? And no one > expects that Harry Potter will suddenly turn into Pollyanna. All > that is being said is that Snape's attitude and remarks are deeply > hurtful. It really doesn't matter whether he is playing a part or > not. It also is beside the point what his motivations are. His > remarks and attitude are deeply hurtful, period. My point is that Snape's only a part of it. The misery and suffering in Harry's life is much more than just Snape. It's a constant - the death of his parents, Privet Drive, Snape, death of Sirius - it's never-ending. So what's the reason? Why does Harry get an emotional bashing on such a regular basis? What is the point? Generation of sympathy? That soon palls because there's so little contrast. Pretty soon you stop noticing until Harry has another spoonful piled onto his plate. Or is it something more fundamental and possibly plot sensitive? If it is I'm damned if I can see where it'll fit. Kneasy From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 21:09:43 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:09:43 -0000 Subject: Petunia not the latebloomer, but magic nonetheless In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101443 "Susan" (teilani) wrote: > And if she was a squib, well, I'm not recalling anything anywhere in > canon that says that Hogwarts is selective in who they invite to > school. I always assumed that people like Filch and Mrs. Figg went > to Hogwarts, and _that's_ how they discovered that they were squibs, > b/c they were horrible at magic. Eustace_Scrubb: But hasn't JKR said that there's a magic quill at Hogwarts that writes down the name of each _magic_ child when they are born? Not, I think, all children of magical parents, but only those who are themselves able to do magic? I would guess that the scroll doesn't write down the names of squibs and therefore Arabella Figg and Argus Filch did not receive Hogwarts letters. (And as an aside--isn't it odd that the two definite squibs we know by name have the same initials?) "Susan" (teilani) again: > As for Dudders, the same applies, really. If Dudders had any magic > in that plump body of his, where's _his_ invitation? Eustace_Scrubb: I think it is possible that parents of magical children can prevent those children from going to Hogwarts...I don't think that the school and its owls are as relentless in going after every student as they were with Harry Potter. That said, I can't see that Petunia's parents would have done any such thing in her case, as they were proud to have one witch in the family. But I think in the case of Dudley, Vernon and Petunia clearly would have done all they could to keep him away from the WW. Now, has Dudley shown one iota of evidence of having any magic in him? Not that I'm aware of. On the other hand, Neville hadn't until Uncle Algie finally dropped him out of the window. We don't hear that from that day on, Neville was always happily doing accidental childhood magic. Had he not been put in a situation where magic was the only thing that would save his life, he wouldn't have known he was a wizard until his letter arrived. Dudley's been kept out of such situations all his life--until the Dementor attack. Now, do his reactions there help us decide whether he's magical or not? Not really. He _is_ blinded by the Dementors, but so is Harry at first. Harry sees the Dementors once he gets his wand back; Dudley apparently doesn't. On the other hand, this is one situation that I can't see accidental magic helping in. He doesn't know any more about Dementors than Harry did on the train in POA and his reaction isn't that much different. The only thing that can turn the Dementors back is the Patronus charm. Harry is one of the youngest people able to do it properly and he had a lot of practice. It's not likely to be something that can occur spontaneously. Anyway, I think that we can come close to ruling out squibs from the "late bloomers." I highly doubt that Petunia is magical. And while I find it hard to imagine Dudley in that role, he's the best candidate I can find at the moment...the only question is, is 16 or 17 "late in life" enough to qualify according to JKR's pronouncement? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb, whose namesake was nearly as much of a git as Dudley until he woke up as a dragon one morning. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 15 21:13:03 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:13:03 -0000 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101444 > Potioncat: Until today I never put Draco's prank and Sirius' prank together. Did either boy intend to kill the victim? I don't know. I don't think so. Would either have been held accountable if the victim had been injured or killed? I hope so. > I also put it together with Ron and Harry stealing the car in Book Two. Everyone thought they did it just to be cool. Nobody could possibly have guessed the real reason without asking them. However, the timing of Draco's prank and the fact that his accomplices included Marcus Flint suggest that he was mostly concerned to keep Gryffindor from catching the Snitch. As Wood told the team PoA ch 13, if they lost that game they were out of the running for the Quidditch cup. I don't think anyone was seriously trying to murder Harry at this poin any more than Wood was trying to murder Cho when he ordered Harry to knock her off her broom if he had to. (PoA 13) As for ditching their robes and disappearing in front of 800+ people, if Malfoy, Flint, Crabbe and Goyle can do that, they're better wizards than I thought. Marcus Flint might think losing fifty points and doing detentions was worth it to keep Gryffindor from winning the cup. I doubt he would do anything to get himself expelled before he took his NEWTs. Quite apart from plot considerations, there's an aesthetic angle to consider. Draco has always been reckless and malicious, as Darrin says, but not so as to do something that could get him expelled in front of a teacher, even at the end of Book Five. He is steadily getting bolder in his malice, but only at the end of Book Five does he make a personal threat against Harry. To have him attempting deliberate murder in the middle of Book Three makes no sense from a character development standpoint. Of course some might say that Draco's character is meant to be static, but I don't think so any more than I think Slytherin House is the Hitler Youth. They do not wear Dark Mark armbands, march around singing "When Muggle blood spurts from the wand, then everything is fine," or even use the M-word except for Draco. Hermione was in her second year before she ever heard it, the Gryffindors were shocked, and Hermione had to have it explained to her (unlike the movie). Pippin From alexpie at aol.com Tue Jun 15 21:20:28 2004 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:20:28 EDT Subject: Trelawney: Squib or Not? Message-ID: <19a.25c9cb74.2e00c21c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101445 I Antosha writes: > Nonetheless, if she were a squib, Dumbledore wouldn't have interviewed her > for the > position of Divination teacher at all, would he? She must have graduated > from Hogwarts-- > or perhaps one of the overseas schools. > I don't think it matter much whether Trelawney is all that magical. I believe that the only reason she was hired is that she is the /unprotected/ repository of the Prophecy. The material prophecy (that is, the ball) is protected in the Ministry. Dumbledore would never let the secret out. Ahhh, but Trelawney; she's the weak link here. I think DD wanted her at Hogwarts and protected, so that LV or his minions couldn't Crucio the Prophecy out of her. And, then in, OoP, there's this, when Trelawny says that she'll leave, after Umbridge dismisses her: "'No,' said Dumbledore sharply. 'It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll.'" I think that clinches it. While DD is indeed a kind man, I think his greatest motivation in hanging onto Sibyll was keeping that prophecy safely inside her, inside the castle. Ba, certain in her belief that all this has been said before and that she just couldn't find it on Yahoomort [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 21:27:32 2004 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:27:32 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101446 Both Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron are reporting JKR has admitted that Blaise is a boy. Evidently the information was needed for the Portugese translation of the books! Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** happy but wanting more........ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 21:27:08 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:27:08 -0000 Subject: Trelawney and her Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101447 Kate: > > Prof Trelawney's area of expertise is Divination. She has foreseen > > the future at least two times that we know of: once before Harry was > > born; then just before Peter Pettigrew joined Lord Voldemort in > > Prisoner... Jen: Divination and channeling are something that Muggles can do, IMO, and perhaps that is why Dumbledore considered dropping the course from the schedule way back when. I wasn't clear, but meant 'has she ever done anything magical with a wand' just out of curiousity. > Antosha: > > Aside from the two 'true' prophecies that we know of, no, I don't recall Cassandra > Trelawney ever managing a spell at all. > > Nonetheless, if she were a squib, Dumbledore wouldn't have interviewed her for the > position of Divination teacher at all, would he? She must have graduated from Hogwarts-- > or perhaps one of the overseas schools. Jen: Would Dumbledore know Trelawney's history when he met with her, other than what she chose to tell him? Perhaps he expected to glean more from their interview, but everything was interrupted by the Prophecy. Once he heard it, DD couldn't let Trelawney just walk away, Squib or not. From jodel at aol.com Tue Jun 15 21:32:21 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:32:21 -0000 Subject: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <024d01c45301$a1f99e60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101448 > > Jodel, they weren't just members when the kids were born, they were members > before DD ever heard the prophecy. (see my quote in the previous reply) > > Alina. I'm sorry, but we are leaping over conclusions here. Probably both of us. There is no evidence that DD founded the Order before he heard the Prophesy. I agree that you are right, the Potters and the Longbottoms clearly *were* members before Harry and Neville were born. But that does not automatically mean that the Order was of any great longstanding. In fact I am personally convinced not. For one thing, given the notorious opacity of the terms of almost any Prophesy one has ever encountered in fantasy literature, to the extent that the majority of them are only evident after they have come to pass, unless there was something about the circumstances under which that prophesy was made that narrowed the possibilities, I'd say that the recieved interpretation of that Prophesy as it stands already looks damned dodgy. The relevant information of that prophesy were that the birth would be to people who had "defied" the Dark Lord three times and that the birth would take place as the "7th month dies". Which 7th month? The 7th month of the year? or the 7th month after the Prophesy was made? Are you sure? are you prepared to risk the welfare of the whole wizarding world on the outcome of a lucky guess? So what else do we know about the circumstances regarding that Prophesy? Well, it was made on a "cold, wet night" and that the reason DD was called out in such a night was that he was giving a job interview. Just when, under normal circumstances, does a Headmaster interview prospective teachers? How about during term breaks. Hogwarts has three breaks in the academic year. There is the summer break at the end ogf June, lasting to the end of August. Not a lot of cold wet nights there, typically. There is the "Easter" break around the end of March. That one is a good deal more likely, but there is still the confusion of which 7th month. And there is the "Christmas" break from mid-December until just after New Year. From that vantage point it doesn't matter which interpretation you put on "the 7th month" you are still going to end up with the end of July, and you are more likely to find the weather cold and wet than otherwise. So, barring further information -- which we may yet get -- I am going to postulate that the prophesy took place toward the end of the Christmas break around the start of the year 1980. And that Dumbledore reported the event immediately to the MoM. By the end of 10 years of terrorist activity there were probably a number of people who had managed the requisite 3 escapes, but it wouldn't have been a large number. And at that point the Potters and the Longbottoms may not have been the only ones to have been expecting children. But their boys were the only ones actually born at the crutial time. I think DD founded the order, possibly folding an older organization, probably that of an information network, into it, and cored it with the people who had made the 3 escapes, their closest friends and fgamily members, along with his own most trusted associates. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 21:38:27 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:27 -0000 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: Jason: > Rebuttal: The Boggart Dementor was fake also yet it had the same > effects as a real one on Harry as he attempted to learn the Patronus > charm. So why would children dressed in robes effect the same way? > Providing Harry believed them to be dementors. Geoff: As has been commented on, Boggarts will mimic the effect of a dementor and, possibly, since the pupils had been warned that the Boggart would take the form of their worst fear, they would anticipate the way in which it would appear. Now, in the two situations where Harry apparently meets Dementors at Quidditch, the effect on him each time is totally different. Let's consider the canon view of Harry v Real Dementor and Harry v Malfoy Dementor: '"Come on!" he growled at his Nimbus, as the rain whipped his face. "Faster!" But something odd was happening. An eerie silence was falling across the stadium. The wind, though as strong as ever, was forgetting to roar. It was as though someone had turned off the sound, as though Harry had gone suddenly deaf - what was going on? And then a horribly familiar wave of cold swept over him, inside him, just as he became aware of something moving on the pitch below.... Before he'd had time to think, Harry had taken his eyes off the Snitch and looked down. At least a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were standing below. It was as though freezing water was rising in his chest, cutting at his insides.' (POA "Grim Defeat" pp.133-34 UK edition) 'He accelerated; so, many feet below, did Cho. He was winning, gaining on the Snitch with every second - then - "Oh!" screamed Cho, pointing. Distracted, Harry looked down. Three Dementors, three tall, black, hooded Dementors, were looking up at him. He didn't stop to think. Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared "Expecto Patronus!" (POA "Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw" p.195 UK edition) In the first incident, Harry has a repetition of the symptoms he first experienced on the Hogwarts Express - the cold, the screaming, the overwhelming loss of control of his actions. In the second, there are no such symptoms. Harry does not stop to analyse why but just goes over to the offensive. There is no cold, no loss of control. Since it is obvious to him that there is no effect, supposing he had not been airborne and grabbing his wand, he might have coolly deduced that there was something odd about these "Dementors". Perhaps Malfoy et al had not experienced the same intensity of effect that Harry had sensed on the two previous occasions and assumed that just being there would be good enough to put him off his game, rather like jumping out of a cupboard wrapped in a white sheet and shouting "Boo". As I remarked in message 101267, Draco wants to look big and wants to belittle Harry and undermine his standing. I would not agree that he is trying to kill Harry; I don't believe his thinking extends that far. His planning is probably "How can I make Potter look stupid and wimpish?" Again, that's only my reading of events; other people have different readings which can probably be argued just as cogently. From ms-tamany at rcn.com Tue Jun 15 21:41:28 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:41:28 -0400 Subject: What does Lucius (and Voldemort) really know about Spy!Snape? Message-ID: <40CF6D08.9070007@rcn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101450 Stefanie wrote: One little problem here -- ". . . Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know, He knows the headmaster, you see...Well, you know his opinion of Dumbledore - the man's such a Mudblood- lover - and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff." (Draco, GoF 11) Granted, if you want to disregard this, it *could* be passed off as Draco merely boasting...but Lucius has been shown to have a long arm when it comes to influence. If Karkaroff and Lucius are still friendly (and obviously Karkaroff knows about Snape's spyhood...being there and all) one would have to assume that this either never came up in their conversations (even considering their shared past experience of, well, eating death) or it *has* come up and consequently, Lucius knows about Snape. (We haven't exactly been given precedence of Karkaroff keeping mum about things) I'm inclined to believe that, at the least, Lucius may know, or Snape's spyhood is one of those buzzing things that "no one is supposed to know about." Now we also know from numerous citations that Snape and Lucius are on good relations. If Lucius knows that Snape is a spy, why on EARTH would he still be friendly with Snape. -- Now me (Tammy): I can only imagine that Lucius and all the other DEs who never faced Azkaban are kicking themselves for settling for the wimpy old "I was Imperio'd" defense, when they *COULD* have done what Snape did, and 'turn spy' (wink wink, nudge nudge). Oh, sure, they've all been cleared, since they were so *obviously* under outside control, but Snape, hey, he's not only been able to freely admit his DE associations, but he's even been forgiven by the MOM, and rewarded with a juicy position raising up the next generation of Death Eaters, all without having to actually turn away from the Dark Lord! He's gotten the whole Wizarding World (those who know of his past, at least) completely fooled, obviously! "Well, yes, I *was* a Death Eater, but then I saw the light and spied on them for the Good Side! (snickersnort)" Of course, that's just what I think Lucius thinks. Personally, I can't help but believe that Snape really *is* on the side of Dumbledore. -- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 21:47:37 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:47:37 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: lifeavantgarde: > According to this fixed stars site > (http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Sinistra.html), Sinistra is the > star on the right hand of the constellation Ophiuchus -- the Serpent > Bearer. In this case could, Sinistra being the right hand of > the "serpent bearer" indicate that there's more than meets the eye > to this mysterious professor? Geoff: The anomaly here is that "sinistra" is Latin for "on the left" and, of course, since left-handed people were considered to be odd or untrustworthy, it has given rise to the modern meaning of "sinister". Does this imply that Professor Sinistra is left-handed or has some connection with the left-hand. just off the top of my head, hasn't someone written a book called "The Left Hand of Darkness" - Ursula LeGuin perhaps or am I just imagining things? From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 21:50:26 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:50:26 -0000 Subject: Trelawney: Squib or Not? In-Reply-To: <19a.25c9cb74.2e00c21c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101452 > I don't think it matter much whether Trelawney is all that magical. I > believe that the only reason she was hired is that she is the /unprotected/ > repository of the Prophecy. The material prophecy (that is, the ball) is protected in > the Ministry. Dumbledore would never let the secret out. Ahhh, but > Trelawney; she's the weak link here. I think DD wanted her at Hogwarts and protected, > so that LV or his minions couldn't Crucio the Prophecy out of her. > And, then in, OoP, there's this, when Trelawny says that she'll leave, > after Umbridge dismisses her: > "'No,' said Dumbledore sharply. 'It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll.'" > I think that clinches it. While DD is indeed a kind man, I think his > greatest motivation in hanging onto Sibyll was keeping that prophecy safely inside > her, inside the castle. > Ba, certain in her belief that all this has been said before and that she > just couldn't find it on Yahoomort Actually, IIRC, Trelawny doesn't remember the prohecies she makes. I am pretty sure that in PoA she can't recall predicting that the Dark Lord will rise again (don't have my books on hand, can't quote the cannon). She probably also wouldn't have remebered the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" prophecy either, and while Crucioing her might be fun for LV, I am not sure he'd get anything useful out of her (this is different from breaking memory charms, I think). IMHO, Trelwany is at the school in case she makes another prediction. She's made two correct ones so far, and they both have had massively important consequences for the WW. DD, or someone loyal to him (like McGonagall) is now in a perfect place to hear any new important info. Just two knuts... Meri From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 21:52:01 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:52:01 -0000 Subject: Teenage brain...Was Snape vs. RW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101453 > > > Off this thread a bit, but still somewhat appropriate, I find it > amusing that in my work, managing a library video collection, I just > this moment picked up a video entitled The Teenage Brain: A World of > Their Own, with the following description: > > "Research has shown that during puberty, when the brain begins > teeming with hormones, the pre-frontal cortex, the center of > reasoning and impulse control, is still a work in progress." > > Hee. I'm sure some would find that an apt description of our Harry? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Funny you mention that. Today in a waiting room I read an interesting article in a May issue of Time. As I read through it I noticed myself continually thinking of HP and his mental issues so far and especially in OoP. Ill provide the link to the article but here are a few snippets.... "Before the imaging studies by Giedd and his collaborators at UCLA, Harvard, the Montreal Neurological Institute and a dozen other institutions, most scientists believed the brain was largely a finished product by the time a child reached the age of 12....Giedd's scanning studies proved what every parent of a teenager knows: not only is the brain of the adolescent far from mature, but both gray and white matter undergo extensive structural changes well past puberty. "When we started," says Giedd, "we thought we'd follow kids until about 18 or 20. If we had to pick a number now, we'd probably go to age 25." ..and now the passage that threw our Harry into my head. (As a side note, I had my copy of OoP in the waiting room with me :-) ) "Now that MRI studies have cracked open a window on the developing brain, researchers are looking at how the newly detected physiological changes might account for the adolescent behaviors so familiar to parents: emotional outbursts, reckless risk taking and rule breaking, and the impassioned pursuit of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll." Emotional outbursts? Reckless risk taking? Rule breaking? Thats our Harry. The article goes on with a lot of big words that I can't remember, and can't get to without subscribing to the Time website. As best as I can remember, the part of the brain that sets priorities and reasoning is among the last to mature. Had Harry been a few years older, he may not have run off to the MoM. The article also mentioned that around this time period of development a parent's cry of "because I said so" is no longer enough. The teens are less likely to do something doesn't make sense to them without a further understanding of why. Learn Occlumency because you say so? Why? Because you say isn't good enough anymore. Jason From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 15 21:59:11 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:59:11 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" wrote: Dudemom_2000: > Both Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron are reporting JKR has admitted > that Blaise is a boy. Evidently the information was needed for the > Portugese translation of the books! Geoff: Well, we did surmise months ago round about message 76500 that he was likely to be a boy. Someone posted at that point that Blaise was the name of Merlin's tutor and I reminded readers of the mathematician Blaise Pascal, famous for Pascal's Triangle inter alia. From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 15 22:13:13 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:13:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Order of the Phoenix? References: Message-ID: <002401c45325$f45fc930$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101456 > I'm sorry, but we are leaping over conclusions here. Probably both of > us. There is no evidence that DD founded the Order before he heard the > Prophesy. I agree that you are right, the Potters and the Longbottoms > clearly *were* members before Harry and Neville were born. But that > does not automatically mean that the Order was of any great > longstanding. In fact I am personally convinced not. > Ok, then I'm going to post my quote again, from the chapter "The Lost Prophecy" in OOP: "The odd thing, Harry," he said softly, "is that it may not have meant you at all. Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix..." I want to hear your interpretation of the words "both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix." The way I hear it is that DD is telling Harry, "at the time I heard the prophecy I immediately knew I could apply it to two families in my Order." How do you hear it? Alina. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 15 22:13:39 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:13:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? Message-ID: <1ea.2307a362.2e00ce93@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101457 In a message dated 6/15/2004 11:15:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rzl46 at yahoo.com writes: About Trelawney doing magic, I don't have my books with me, but I'm thinking that in PoA she cleans up the cup that Neville drops. I'm pretty sure it gets cleaned up, but I'm not positive that she is the one who does it. ================ Sherrie here: I believe she does - but not with magic. IIRC (and I'm not at home, so don't have my books handy), she comes over with a whiskbroom and dustpan. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 15 22:17:48 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:17:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in tim... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101458 In a message dated 6/15/2004 12:07:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, norek_archives2 at hotmail.com writes: Yes, that's what I thought from the beginning, and I suspect that such a poison -- or, equally likely, a poison that can counterfeit death -- will show up some time during these adventures. Remember the trouble such a poison caused in *Romeo and Juliet?* ============== Sherrie here: Interesting...please check me if I'm wrong, but isn't the VERY first potion we're made aware of in the books, the Draught of the Living Death??? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at sunstoneonline.com Tue Jun 15 22:38:39 2004 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (ecdc2) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:38:39 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigr ew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101459 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > Alla: > > > Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As > if > > > he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that > > > is why he was laughing. > > > > Gina: > > > I agree because he did not know what Pettigrew was up to when he > > > sliced off his own finger and started yelling things that did not > > > make sense. We know by Sirius seeing Pettigrew in the newspaper > pic > > > that he did not know Peter was alive so personally I think Sirius > > > really believed that Pettigrew blew himself up. I mean - cutting > > > his finger off would seem like he was going to do a really big > > > spell to me then when he blew himself up - I personally would > have > > > thought that hilarious until I realized that he intended me to be > > > blamed for it. Pettigrew was not a great wizard like James > > > or Sirius so blowing himself up on accident would not be out of > his > > > reach. > > > > > > Sirius did not get a trial either so I believe that the MoM was > in > > > on it. Sorry if I'm late on the discussion, but I thought Sirius was laughing because Pettigrew hit him with a cheering charm. I'd always assumed that's why JKR went to such great lengths to put them in the book and have Ron get hit by a powerful one by Harry and have to be removed to another room becasue he couldn't stop laughing. I can't check and see if that's in the canon or not, but that was my impression. John From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jun 15 23:07:55 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:07:55 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Phil Boswell wrote: > > Still not certain why Sirius would have just sat down and laughed, > > however ... > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made > sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an > ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of > way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... > > It seems to me that the report of Sirius laughing after the blown- up > street always weighed heavily against him, and even when we did > discover his innocence, it's not one of those things which instantly > made sense in light of the new facts. Why WAS he laughing? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Marianne: I can come up with three ideas. One, it was the sort of distraught reaction some people have when under severe stress. Two, as time has gone by and people have become farther removed from the event, what may have been a noise of surprise and dismay from Sirius has somehow been transformed in the telling of the story into hysterical laughter. And, for the third thought, the person who mentioned this laughter was Fudge, who was conveniently first at the scene of the blown-apart street. I can be talked into believing that Fudge is a secret DE, or DE sympathizer, and at the time was in on a plot to frame Sirius. So of course it would suit him to portray Sirius in as poor a light as possible. Why not say that he, Fugde, got to this horrible, bloody scene and had to confront a man so devoid of feeling, do desperately evil, that the only effect this carnage had on him was to make him laugh? Marianne From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 23:13:27 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:13:27 -0000 Subject: Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: <40CED8FB.9010908@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101461 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says I get the impression that you lean forward. People racing for the snitch are generally described as "lying almost flat" on the broom. --JDR From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jun 15 23:16:02 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:16:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CF8332.50006@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101462 jdr0918 wrote: > << operate a broom? > ... How would you increase your broom speed?>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > I get the impression that you lean forward. People racing for the > snitch are generally described as "lying almost flat" on the broom. Madam Hooch said you leaned forward to descend. I'm unclear how it works. Jem From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Tue Jun 15 23:19:11 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:19:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: <40CF8332.50006@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101463 The Sergeant Majorette says I get the impression that you lean forward. People racing for the snitch are generally described as "lying almost flat" on the broom. Jem replied: Madam Hooch said you leaned forward to descend. I'm unclear how it works. Lady Macbeth replies: I'm guessing this was the intent. I'm sure that Jo probably combined a bit of research on traditional stories of broom flight with riding something else non-mechanical, such as a horse or a dolphin. Horses in particular can be trained to respond to physical signals from the rider such as pressure from the legs or leaning of the body, and the brooms may be "magically" trained in much the same manner. It would actually make sense for the broom to speed up as the rider leaned closer because the rider is then creating less wind resistance - it's just like any other time you're moving through air or water - if you are able to pull all of the edges of yourself and/or your mode of transport into a sleek, compact shape, you'll move faster than if you're spread out in a large or akward shape. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 23:31:31 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:31:31 -0000 Subject: List debates (was Draco's Intent) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101464 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says As I have been saying from the very beginning. Unfortunately, in OoP, Draco is not even all that Wile E. And big fishmeister Voldemort is Gargamel to Dumbledore's Papa Smurf. Draco needs to get his Acme together. --JDR From akhillin at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 23:32:28 2004 From: akhillin at yahoo.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040615233228.5012.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101465 Lady Macbeth wrote: Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made sense to me either. Lady Macbeth: Because Sirius is a nutter? akh: That's always a possibility, ;-) but I read it as laughing at bitter irony. I base this on the reaction of a friend of mine who was arrested (erroneously) for armed robbery. When the Chicago police police nabbed him and told him he was under arrest, he laughed. Not a good idea to laugh in the face of a Chicago cop... Anyway, when I was looking shocked at his story, he explained that he was so struck by the sheer absurdity of getting arrested for a crime he would never commit in a million years that he could only laugh. We must remember, too, that Sirius does feel enormous guilt about the Potters' deaths, so he might feel some of the irony is that they DID get the right person in his mind, even though he's being arrested for the wrong crime. akh, who's never been arrested and THINKS she wouldn't laugh if she were.... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 15 23:35:37 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:35:37 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D01469.4070.60DB19@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101466 On 15 Jun 2004 at 19:21, cubfanbudwoman wrote: > SSSusan: > Ha ha ha! I'm just trying to see if I can bring Kneasy out to issue > a congratulatory note to me. ;-) > > No, seriously, Del's words truly did hit me differently today that > other arguments have before. And, Alla, to answer your question from > a moment ago about how much slack we should cut Snape, I really don't > know!! I suspect I'll waver from moment to moment, depending on the > mood I'm in. But I did just realize that maybe I need to set aside > RL teaching/learning situations a little more and think about the > magical world as JKR has painted it: it's got more danger, and it's > certainly less parental/authority hands-on than what U.S. teenagers > would be experiencing. I'm sure I'll still always argue that if > Snape were a good all-round teacher, he'd evaluate his methods more, > but I'm shifting away from my vehement "grade abuse" stance of yore. I think that the really important point, at least for me, is that there's a lot of cultural differences tied up in these issues. Myself - having attended a very traditional school, similar in many ways (though unfortunately not in every way) to Hogwarts - I find it quite easy to see Snape's potential as a teacher within the context of the school he is in. I *had* teachers very much like Snape - and I'm grateful for that - but I would not have tolerated the treatment I accepted from teachers at the school I was at when I was 14, from the teachers at the school I was at when I was 12. Because the *cultures* of those schools were so different. The one I was at when I was 12, was an extremely liberal, very modern school, where it was the teachers job to be student's friends, to make learning a pleasant experience, and to facilitate their learning (and it was an absolute disaster for me, and I hated it). The school I was at when I was 14 was extremely traditional, very old fashioned and it was the teachers job to teach students academically to their maximum potential and where everything elese was completely and totally secondary (there was nothing wrong with a teacher being friendly, and there was certainly nothing wrong with a teacher making their classes pleasant if they could, and many did - but those things were *not* priorities - they were optional extras if the teacher could manage them). And that was the learning environment I *prospered* in. But I accepted things from the teachers there - including even to the extent of being hit by them - that I *never* would have accepted at the other school. Simply because of the different culture within the school. Hogwarts has its own culture - and from what we see of it, it seems a very effective one. Virtually every adult we see who we know attended Hogwarts is a competent functioning adult. In terms of the kids - well, Neville is the one we've seen who has the most problems - but even he seems to have done relatively well - holding his own in most subjects, doing very well in one, doing poorly in one - but his character is certainly a strong one - he has learned to stand on his own two feet. Hogwarts seems to be a *successful* school. It's culture seems to be an effective one. So I can forgive Snape a fair bit in the context of that school. But not elsewhere. I'm currently studying to be a teacher - and therefore I'm being taught all the nice new methods that most people want used in most schools today - and they are great. I've no problem with them - and if I wind up teaching in a normal school I suspect those methods will be my main tools. But if I wound up at my old school, or one similar to that, I think I'd be a rather Snapish teacher (-8 - not quite as bad as Snape (in fact, McGonnagal is my favourite model - strict when needed, not prepared to accept anything less than her students can do, but apparently scrupulously fair). Teaching styles of school call for different styles of teaching, in my opinion. JKR could have created Hogwarts as the Wizarding version of a city comprehensive. She deliberately chose not to - she chose to use something based on the traditional British independent (public) boarding school - from what I've read, not because she is particularly in favour of such schools, but because it gave her the model she needed to make her stories work. Within the school she's created, I think teachers like Snape are acceptable in general - I violently disagree with a couple of things Snape has done - but I agree that most of what he does is valid within that school context. But in another context - definitely not. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 23:52:06 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:52:06 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101467 Geoff wrote: Does this imply that Professor Sinistra is left-handed or has some connection with the left-hand. just off the top of my head, hasn't someone written a book called "The Left Hand of Darkness" - Ursula LeGuin perhaps or am I just imagining things? vmonte responds: LeGuin did write that book, it won the Nebula and Hugo awards for best science fiction novel. vivian From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 23:53:02 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:53:02 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101468 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says "Admitted"? I don't believe there was ever meant to be any mystery. And since I'm pointing it out, I'll stand here and take the slap upside the head for my countrypersons: it's only Americans that would take "Blaise" for a girl's name. We think it's an alternate spelling of "Blaze", which is a good name for a redhead. --JDR From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 15 23:55:41 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:55:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CF8C7D.4070306@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101469 My favourite Snape-basher is back! Welcome! :-) darrin_burnett wrote: > > He was told to do something, but never told why. For Harry, who for all his > bleating and 15-year-old self-centeredness deserved to know a bit more. > > And again, it is about trust. What exactly in Harry and Snape's relationship > would give him reason to trust Snape? > > And to answer the question, Harry did do his part to send the lessons off the > rails when he dove into the Pensieve. But you know what? Thanks to Snape, > it was a train wreck long before. Can we perhaps compare Occlumency lessons not to Patronus, but to much more comparable Imperius? Does Moody tell them why? Children, Dumbledore wants you to know. Is it good enough for Harry? Yes. Snape gave him exactly the same reason, plus some more (Voldemort may try something), but it was not good enough. Does Moody tell them how? No, nothing. He didn't mention the helpful little voice they should look for. Harry figured it out all by himself. Snape actually gave him more instruction than Moody did. The only difference in the lessons that can explain the difference in outcomes, in my opinion, is Harry's attitude to the teacher. He liked Moody, he was eager to impress him, so he put some effort into it, for a change. I don't see how it was Snape's fault wrecking the lessons. Irene From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 00:05:28 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:05:28 -0000 Subject: Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101471 <<> ...It would actually make sense for the broom to speed up as the rider leaned closer because the rider is then creating less wind resistance...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says How about this: the body movement in relation to the broom controls speed, and steering pressure applied through the arms (If your arms are more or less rigid as mine would be on my first broom ride, you'd be leaning forward and pushing down) controls direction. Of course, I can't even play the stupid Quidditch video game. And I've never seen a pre-Potter picture of a traditional broom-rider that was anything but a female, generally riding sidesaddle, which has got to be the only sensible way to do it... --JDR From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 00:08:07 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:08:07 -0000 Subject: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > I've heard rumors about this "little hint" but have yet to see the > actual interview in which JKR actually makes this comment... > > But if we're speculating: Entropy: Okay, just thought I'd throw this one into the mix. After reading Order of the Phoenix, it struck me that the "little thing" may have been related to OOP's Legilimency classes. There's this discussion between Dumbledore and Harry (COS, ch. 12): " 'I must ask you, Harry, whether there is anything you'd like to tell me,' he said gently. 'Anything at all.' Harry...thought of Malfoy shouting 'You'll be next, Mudbloods!'..Polyjuice Potion...Moaning Myrtle's bathroom...then he thought of the disembodied voice...and his growing dread that he was somehow connected with Salazar Slytherin." A similar question is asked by Professor Dippet to Tom Riddle during the diary flashback. And interestingly (warning: movie contamination ahead!) it is Dumbledore who asks both Harry and Tom the exact same question in the COS movie. Dumbledore's question surely brought Harry's most secret and guarded thoughts right up to the surface, where Dumbledore could easily "see" them. In effect, it is like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant; of course, all they can then think of is a pink elephant. This adds to my growing suspicion that Dumbledore may be using legilimency on Harry more that he knows (much more subtlely that Snape would, of course), and that Dumbledore may, in fact, know lots more about Harry's movements throughout Hogwarts than he's let on. :: Entropy :: From lmenard at shentel.net Tue Jun 15 21:05:58 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:05:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney and her Magic References: Message-ID: <000e01c4531c$903aaa50$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 101473 Antosha: Aside from the two 'true' prophecies that we know of, no, I don't recall Cassandra Trelawney ever managing a spell at all. Nonetheless, if she were a squib, Dumbledore wouldn't have interviewed her for the position of Divination teacher at all, would he? She must have graduated from Hogwarts-- or perhaps one of the overseas schools. Laura now: I do not believe that you have to be able to preform magic to teach Divination at Hogwarts. At the end of chapter 26 in OotP Firenze the centaur is made the new Divination instuctor implying that one has to part of the WW but not a full fledge wand using wizard. DD interviewed her out of respect for Trelawney's great-great-grandmother as stated in chapter 37 of OotP. DD is telling HP about the hearing the prophecy while interviewing the " great-great-granddaughter of a very famous, very gifted Seer, and I thought it common politeness to meet her." (p. 840, Scholastic) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 00:08:56 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:08:56 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <: > > Personally I always read his laugh as kind of hysterical one. As if > he could not believe the absurdity of what was happening and that is > why he was laughing. Same here. I remember reading an account of the Salem Witch Trials, where one of the accused (quite a feisty woman) just started laughing as the "evidence" was being presented against her. And even when she was told to shut up, and it was obvious that this was making a very bad impression and getting her in a lot of trouble, she just kept on and even said that she couldn't stop. I think of Sirius' laugh as a kind of emotional explosion after all the drama of the past day or two, coupled with the nightmarish experience of being accused of having engineered it all. Wanda From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Tue Jun 15 21:32:12 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:32:12 -0700 Subject: Draco's intent, Dementors and Boggarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c45320$38c6fb80$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101475 Pippin wrote: <> I personally think you are giving Marcus Flint too much credit in the intelligence department (He did fail a year). As for Draco, he is a slimy little braggart filled with his own self worth. I doubt Flint and Draco thought through their pathetic Dementor prank other than it would mess with Harry's ability to catch the Snitch. Draco seems to think his daddy can fix everything for him- now that his father has been disgraced and outed as a DE what will Draco do in books 6 & 7? Trevor From bethg2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 21:50:19 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:50:19 -0000 Subject: "Ginny's older sister" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101476 At one point in OOP we are told that Tonks turns her hair red and looks like Ginny's older sister. A few possible interpretations 1. Rowling was just trying to remind us about the Metamorphamagus thing, we know it will come up again. 2.There is romance down the line for Bill or Charlie adding her to the Weasley Family (OBHWF indeed :-)) 3.She could look enough like Ginny or another of the teens to fool somebody. This could save somebody and/or get her killed. 4. She will take on a big sister role for Ginny and/or Hermione giving them advice on matters of the heart helping the upcoming relationships with whoever they are going to be with. Thoughts? Additions? Beth Gaughan From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Tue Jun 15 22:27:57 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:27:57 -0000 Subject: Sinistra and LeGuin (was; question re little thing...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101477 Geoff wrote: >The anomaly here is that "sinistra" is Latin for "on the left" and, >of course, since left-handed people were considered to be odd or >untrustworthy, it has given rise to the modern meaning of "sinister". >Does this imply that Professor Sinistra is left-handed or has some >connection with the left-hand. just off the top of my head, hasn't >someone written a book called "The Left Hand of Darkness" - Ursula >LeGuin perhaps or am I just imagining things? Leah: Not your imagination, Geoff. The book is set on a planet formerly the site of genetic manipulations, resulting in a population which is sexless in appearance,(but reads as earth male)and able to morph into female or male form during mating (kemmer). 'Normal' individuals swap sexual identity even in a relationship with a stable partner, but as I recall (and I read this years ago) some people only ever took on a male or female sexual role and this was considered slightly odd. It is a beautifully poetic book, which like others of LeGuin's uses the folk tales of her imaginary world to great effect. When I read it, it appeared to me to be a way to write sympathetically about homosexuality at a time when this was not a mainstream theme. The title is taken from a poem in the book which has some resonances for Harry's story and reads: Light is the left hand of darkness and darkness the right hand of light. Two are one, life and death, lying together like lovers in kemmer, like hands joined together, like the end and the way'. From lmenard at shentel.net Tue Jun 15 23:57:53 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:57:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in tim... References: Message-ID: <001501c45334$948845a0$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 101478 Sherrie here: > Interesting...please check me if I'm wrong, but isn't the VERY first > potion we're made aware of in the books, the Draught of the Living > Death??? Laura here: Yes, it The Potions Master chapter- Snape-"...for your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death...." (p. 138,Scholastic) Would assume that this is similar to the potion referred to in Romeo and Juliet. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 00:01:15 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:01:15 -0000 Subject: Trelawney: Squib or Not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101479 Ba wrote: >>I don't think it matter much whether Trelawney is all that magical. I believe that the only reason she was hired is that she is the /unprotected/ repository of the Prophecy. The material prophecy (that is, the ball) is protected in the Ministry. Dumbledore would never let the secret out. Ahhh, but Trelawney; she's the weak link here. I think DD wanted her at Hogwarts and protected, so that LV or his minions couldn't Crucio the Prophecy out of her.<< Meri: >Actually, IIRC, Trelawny doesn't remember the prophecies she makes. I am pretty sure that in PoA she can't recall predicting that the Dark Lord will rise again (don't have my books on hand, can't quote the cannon). She probably also wouldn't have remebered the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" prophecy either, and while Crucioing her might be fun for LV, I am not sure he'd get anything useful out of her (this is different from breaking memory charms, I think).< Stefanie: I'm of the inclination to believe that Dumbledore *is* keeping Trelawny at Hogwarts to protect her. Especially after learning all that much about Legilimancy in OotP: "'Now,' said Umbridge, looking up at Trelawney, 'you've been in this post how long, exactly?' [Trelawney} said in a deeply resentful tone, 'Nearly sixteen years.'" (OotP 15) `On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head inn. I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher, though it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. (Dumbledore, OotP 37) Now Dumbledore is quite prepared to nix Divination altogether -- while one can interpret this as meaning that Trelawney proved herself by making the true prophecy, I don't think that "convinced Dumbledore to keep Divination." Dumbledore knew that true prophecies had been made in the past by many people and yet was still prepared to cut the subject. This prophecy by a dotty lady doesn't seem like it would reinstate his faith in teaching the students this. Knowing Voldemort is exceedingly skilled at Legilimancy, even if Trelawney doesn't consciously remember the prophecy, one can guess that if brought to Voldemort, the rolodex of her brain could be pilfered to reveal the entire thing. (Note: "Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sybill Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building.'" [OotP 37]) Dumbledore knew he had been eavesdropped on -- hence, he knew that Voldemort would know that it was Trelawney that has provided the prophecy. Hogwarts *is* the safest place to be; even though he previously had little intention of continuing the post of Divination teacher, he now had to keep it up to maintain a cover for Trelawney, whom he had to protect. ...IMHO :o) Stefanie From antonia at timself.net Tue Jun 15 22:29:22 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:29:22 -0400 Subject: Squibs and Hagrid was Re: Petunia not the latebloomer, but magic nonetheless In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040615181922.021773b8@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101480 Susan wrote: > > As for Dudders, the same applies, really. If Dudders had any > > magic in that plump body of his, where's _his_ invitation? > > > > So, I'm with you on the possibility of Mrs. Figg, and I could also > > see Hagrid practicing/using magic to fight in the war, though I'm > > not sure he actually qualifies, as he's not exactly a late bloomer, > > just uneducated. Persephone: > Well, then I am confused, it you were a squib, weren't that noted at > birth that you were not a magical child?? So, your knowledge of the > wizarding world would be from your parents vision or siblings and > friends. Okay is a squib NON MAGICAL or a person who can't use magic. I guess the question is are we sure people like Figg and Filch are NON MAGICAL? I always thought they were magical people who couldn't DO magic, either because of a disability or because there wasn't ENOUGH magic in them to use, or they couldn't figure out how to use it. I never thought that they weren't "genetically" magical, it never occurred to me that they weren't in the book. I don't know whether they got letters and found out AT Hogwarts they couldn't do magic, or found out before and their letters were stopped. If squibs were totally NON MAGICAL what use would a Kwikspell Course BE? Why would Filch spend what is probably the wizard world version of outrageous infomercial prices on something if he KNEW he could NEVER no matter what he did ever use magic at all? I always thought squibs were disabled wizards. Magic folk who couldn't USE magic. As opposed to Muggles who are NON MAGICAL people. Regarding Hagrid, his wand was broken and he was expelled because he was de facto if not dejure "convicted of opening the chamber of secrets, and killing Myrtle (fill in last name)" Since everyone has known he was innocent since book one, at least the people in power, why hasn't someone taken Hagrid to Ollivanders for a NEW WAND, in five books I've seen NO evidence to say okay we know it was Tom Riddle/Voldemort etc. We know its not Hagrid so clear his name and restore his rights. If someone is wrongly convicted in the muggle world they restore his rights. I have no clue why nobody in the WW is trying to get Hagrid cleared, and his official right to use magic restored. Tana From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 16 00:23:05 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:23:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101481 | From: jodel_from_aol | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 0:50 AM | If | we can make another leap of reasoning and postulate that Pettigrew may | have had pet rats as a child nimself, a country retirement as a family | pet may have been an easy decision. (Percy would have been 5 or 6 when | Scabbers showed up. It would have been some years before Pettigrew was | hauled off to Hogwarts. And I think Percy did take him to school until | he got Hermes and passed him on to Ron, since he couldn't take an owl | *and* a rat. [Lee]: I can subscribe to these thoughts, but want to throw another one in the hopper. Yes, Ron said he got Scabbers from Percy; he did not indicate if Percy had gotten him from Charlie or Bill, or if the rat had been given to Percy directly. So, this could further substantiate the time factor. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From siviax3 at cox.net Tue Jun 15 23:52:35 2004 From: siviax3 at cox.net (Siviax3) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:52:35 -0500 Subject: Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) References: <001a01c45305$7e9b5ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <032101c45334$21220920$3ff86944@CarolynsComp> No: HPFGUIDX 101482 Jacqui: I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was a certain incident (which I can't remember...sorry) then she all of a sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can anyone else remember what that incident was? Sherry: Wasn't that in OOTP, when Umbridge is observing the divination class? Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. I thought it was after getting past the dragon in GoF, but I don't have my books right now so I can't look it up. Not much help, hunh? Carolyn From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 00:24:52 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:24:52 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: Wanda Sherratt [mailto:wsherratt3338 at r...] > > Outing someone who has AIDS might be > necessary to protect others.<<< > > WHAT!? I really hope you don't mean this, because I don't think anyone who > has AIDS ~needs~ to be outed unless you know someone is having sex with them > and doesn't know they're infected. But I think they were discussing a > teacher being outed, and in that case, there is no danger to anyone, even if > the teacher did have AIDS. > Uh, yes, I did mean this. My husband coaches a wrestling team - people are scraping their knees, falling on their faces and ending up with bloody noses all the time. Someone with AIDS has no place in such a situation, and if it turned out that one of the participants was HIV+ he'd have to go, willingly or unwillingly. Sex may be the most high-profile (and emotionally compelling) way of spreading the disease, but it's not the only one. In Lupin's case, he's in even a worse situation than an AIDS sufferer, because when HE is dangerous, he also loses his rationality and can't stop himself from injuring others. His ailment is more like temporary insanity than AIDS. Wanda From siviax3 at cox.net Wed Jun 16 00:22:23 2004 From: siviax3 at cox.net (Siviax3) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:22:23 -0500 Subject: Sinistra (Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come) References: Message-ID: <03f501c45338$0aa165c0$3ff86944@CarolynsComp> No: HPFGUIDX 101484 Stefanie: [snip] But if we're speculating: "Justin was carried up to the hospital wing by Professor Flitwick and Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department..." (CoS 11) [snip] According to this fixed stars site (http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Sinistra.html), Sinistra is the star on the right hand of the constellation Ophiuchus -- the Serpent Bearer. In this case could, Sinistra being the right hand of the "serpent bearer" indicate that there's more than meets the eye to this mysterious professor? For some reason, your question brings this to my mind: where does she sit at the head table, in relation to Snape? Carolyn From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 00:23:50 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:23:50 -0000 Subject: Sinistra (Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101485 Geoff: > The anomaly here is that "sinistra" is Latin for "on the left" > and, of course, since left-handed people were considered to be odd > or untrustworthy, it has given rise to the modern meaning of > "sinister". > > Does this imply that Professor Sinistra is left-handed or has some > connection with the left-hand. just off the top of my head, hasn't > someone written a book called "The Left Hand of Darkness" - Ursula > LeGuin perhaps or am I just imagining things? Stefanie: Not sure about the book, but I see other's have answered according to that -- I know that the "left = sinister" thing is right out there with her name being such...but the Subject/Teacher name relationship is what, IMHO, makes Sinistra such a name of interest. I mean, we know with others (i.e., Vector and Sprout) that this is a device JKR uses -- the mythology attached to this star in regards to an Astronomy teacher? Was JKR trying to give us a "precidence" or a hint by naming two other teachers in regards to their subject? I'm convinced this isn't a mistake... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 00:42:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:01 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: <40D01469.4070.60DB19@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101486 Shaun wrote: > I'm currently studying to be a teacher.... > > But if I wound up at my old school, or one similar to that, I > think I'd be a rather Snapish teacher (-8 - not quite as bad as > Snape (in fact, McGonnagal is my favourite model - strict when > needed, not prepared to accept anything less than her students can > do, but apparently scrupulously fair). SSSusan: Precisely. Strict, holding high standards for all and scrupulously fair. NO ONE can argue with that model. And it's not "modern" or jargon-y; it's a long-standing characterization of an effective teacher [provided "competent" is added to the mix]. Snape's got "strict" and "high standards" going for him-- AND "competence." It's the "scrupulously fair" part which has made him the target of many. Shaun: > Within the school she's created, I think teachers like Snape are > acceptable in general - I violently disagree with a couple of > things Snape has done - but I agree that most of what he does is > valid within that school context. > > But in another context - definitely not. SSSusan: I concur with you about violently disagreeing with a couple of things he's done [dropping Harry's potion vial being one of them; berating & intimidating Neville being another], but as I posted earlier today, I'm *working on* understanding Snape w/in the Hogwarts context. Siriusly Snapey Susan From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed Jun 16 00:36:08 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:36:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101487 The Sergeant Majorette says How about this: the body movement in relation to the broom controls speed, and steering pressure applied through the arms (If your arms are more or less rigid as mine would be on my first broom ride, you'd be leaning forward and pushing down) controls direction. Of course, I can't even play the stupid Quidditch video game. And I've never seen a pre-Potter picture of a traditional broom-rider that was anything but a female, generally riding sidesaddle, which has got to be the only sensible way to do it... --JDR Lady Macbeth says: Sensible once you get the hang of it. This is something I know from too many years sitting on rail fences and parallel bars - it's easy to lose your balance and fall over backward sitting sidesaddle if you don't know what you're doing. (Actually, same thing can be said on horseback, but the horse's saddle is usually wider than a broom handle or a metal bar.) Then, on a bar, whether you tip forward or backward, you have to know how to right yourself or you find yourself either hanging underneath it with your arms in an uncomfortable position or on the ground. The anime series "Mahou Tsukai Tai" played off of "stereotypical" witches - hence the pointy black hats and the wands and the brooms and etc. The one thing I enjoy about the show is that the inexperienced fliers ride their brooms in the manner of Harry Potter - bristles to the back, straddling the broom handle (which is easiest to keep balance and direction). The more experienced fliers ride however comfortable; Aburatsubo often rides sidesaddle and Takeo is shown here riding with one leg up for balance. http://carnage.fanfic.org/mahoutsukaitai.jpg On this pic http://aninet.opticore.net/UAD/MTT/images/gallery/mtt_off-documents_front.jp g we see Sae from a front view flying as the Harry Potter witches do. The difference here is that the brooms in Mahou Tsukai Tai don't have cushioning charms on them, so Sae is compensating by redistributing her weight - she's actually not quite resting her bum on the broom handle and is using her knees and thighs to hold her body weight while her arm is pinioned in a central position to maintain balance. (If her other hand weren't holding her hat in place due to a rapid ascent she would have that hand in front of the other and would be leaning forward slightly.) Old texts in our world often show witches riding with the bristles forward (as has been referenced in other messages on this list). While there is a magical reason for doing this, if smooth flight were the only concern, it wouldn't be the best approach - the extra width and weight in the front would be just that much more that you would have to haul around with your hands rather than letting wind and gravity do the work. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 00:52:37 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:52:37 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40CF8C7D.4070306@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101488 One of my favorite Snape apologists (and they are legion!) commented: :) > > Can we perhaps compare Occlumency lessons not to Patronus, but to much more comparable Imperius? > > Does Moody tell them why? Children, Dumbledore wants you to know. Actually, he said, page 187, UK "Dumbledore has got a higher opinion of your nerves. He reckons you can cope." Compare that to Snape's Occlumency lesson, where Snape, essentially said he was deigning to help Harry and that Harry was NOT important. Is it good enough for Harry? Yes. Snape gave him exactly the same reason, plus some more (Voldemort may try something), but it was not >good enough. How does Moody approach the class? He walks in, tells them something good "I've had a letter from Lupin about this class..." Then, with the stroking over, he drops the hammer, telling them where they are behind. Then, he makes a favorable comment to Ron about Arthur before asserts his authority by telling Lavender to stop looking at her astrology chart. Nice, harsh, nice, harsh. Cool guy, but in charge. Then, at the end of the lesson, Harry witnessed Moody taking Neville under his wing. He is reminded favorably of Lupin. Compare that to how Snape's first lesson went and I think you'll see where Snape went wrong. He can't teach as well as a lunatic DE! :) > Does Moody tell them how? No, nothing. He didn't mention the helpful little voice they should look for. Harry figured it out all by himself. Amazing, what a good teacher can do! Seriously, what did Snape tell Harry exactly? He berated Harry for getting it wrong and commented snidely on the memories he was seeing in Harry's head, but he did not tell him to "try to find me through the haze of memories." > The only difference in the lessons that can explain the difference in outcomes, in my opinion, is Harry's attitude to the teacher. > He liked Moody, he was eager to impress him, so he put some effort into it, for a change. > A teacher actually inspires students to do well. Wow, this is pretty revolutionary. :) I should call my local superintendent! You're strengthening, not weakening, my case. A teacher has a great deal to do with how well a student is motivated. Lupin and Moody are excellent motivators, while Snape is a lousy motivator. Darrin -- Good to see you again, Irene. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 16 01:01:09 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:01:09 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: References: <40D01469.4070.60DB19@localhost> Message-ID: <40D02875.17457.AF2EA1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101489 On 16 Jun 2004 at 0:42, cubfanbudwoman wrote: > Shaun wrote: > > I'm currently studying to be a teacher.... > > > > But if I wound up at my old school, or one similar to that, I > > think I'd be a rather Snapish teacher (-8 - not quite as bad as > > Snape (in fact, McGonnagal is my favourite model - strict when > > needed, not prepared to accept anything less than her students can > > do, but apparently scrupulously fair). > > > SSSusan: > Precisely. Strict, holding high standards for all and scrupulously > fair. NO ONE can argue with that model. And it's not "modern" or > jargon-y; it's a long-standing characterization of an effective > teacher [provided "competent" is added to the mix]. Sorry, I should have been clearer - I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression I think these are modern ideas - my point really was that McGonnagal is an example of another type of 'traditional' teacher - not that many 'modern' teachers wouldn't follow those ideas as well, but I didn't want to leave the impression that I felt traditional teaching had to be inherently unfair. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 16 01:28:30 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:28:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CFA23E.7080104@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101490 darrin_burnett wrote: > > > How does Moody approach the class? He walks in, tells them something > good "I've had a letter from Lupin about this class..." Snape tried to be professional about the lessons, Sirius turned it all personal from the beginning. (But that's not the point I was trying to make). > > Then, with the stroking over, he drops the hammer, telling them where > they are behind. > > Then, he makes a favorable comment to Ron about Arthur before asserts > his authority by telling Lavender to stop looking at her astrology > chart. > > Nice, harsh, nice, harsh. Cool guy, but in charge. > > Then, at the end of the lesson, Harry witnessed Moody taking Neville > under his wing. He is reminded favorably of Lupin. > > Compare that to how Snape's first lesson went and I think you'll see > where Snape went wrong. OK. He gives Harry a theoretical explanation about Legilimency. Tries to give him some motivation for studying. Has some difficulties finding the right words - maybe he is severely limited by Dumbledore in what he can tell Harry? Harry interrupts him twice ("Harry did not care if Snape was angry"), and says Voldie's name, but still I would say Snape was quite patient answering all his questions for 3 pages. Harry's got more useful information here than in the whole year up to this point, why can't he appreciate it? Snape then gives him permission to use any spell without repercussions. Not bad so far, don't you think? Instruction - it's similar to Imperius, for which you have some aptitude. How is it different from Moody mentioning Lupin's letter? Only in Harry's attitude. Snape analyses his first attempt, and tells him exactly how it can be improved. But you know what - maybe it's not Harry's fault after all. He is scared to close the door, he is scared to shut his eyes. It's not working even before Snape insulted him, Dumbledore was crazy to think it could ever work. > > He can't teach as well as a lunatic DE! :) He can teach Potions well enough - they all pass the tests. :-) > > Seriously, what did Snape tell Harry exactly? He berated Harry for > getting it wrong and commented snidely on the memories he was seeing > in Harry's head, but he did not tell him to "try to find me through > the haze of memories." He told Harry to do exactly what he did to stop him seeing Cho memory, minus the shouting. Moody didn't teach him anything extra between attempts, Harry was improving through his own feedback. > > You're strengthening, not weakening, my case. A teacher has a great > deal to do with how well a student is motivated. Lupin and Moody are > excellent motivators, while Snape is a lousy motivator. Tough. He has the knowledge, Harry should be able to raise above the presentation to get to the content. At the age of 11 I could cut Snape's pupils some slack, at the age of 15 it's silly to expect that you'll only learn from nice people, or from people that suit your personal learning style best. BTW, it was not Lupin's virtues that motivated Harry to learn Patronus, it was the threat to his position as a quidditch player. To bad Umbridge took the quidditch away, maybe Snape could use the same threat Wood had used so successfully to motivate Harry. ;-) And another thing, about Harry's mind being weaker after the lessons: imagine you work out with professional trainer once a week. He expects you to practice on your own in between, but you don't. Of course after each weekly session your muscles will feel like a jelly instead of getting stronger. Must be all trainer's fault. Irene From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 01:37:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:37:08 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40CFA23E.7080104@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: snip. > At the age of 11 I could cut Snape's pupils some slack, at the age of 15 > it's silly to expect that you'll only learn from nice people, or from > people that suit your personal learning style best. Alla: Eh,maybe, if the said students met Snape for the first time when they are fifteen. Even in that situation I will not be sure. But Snape intimidated, humiliated and abused them since they were eleven. How exactly Harry supposed suddenly start trusting Snape? snip > And another thing, about Harry's mind being weaker after the lessons: > imagine you work out with professional trainer once a week. He expects > you to practice on your own in between, but you don't. Of course after > each weekly session your muscles will feel like a jelly instead of > getting stronger. Must be all trainer's fault. > > Irene Alla nods her head agreeably witht he last sentence. :o) From catportkey at aol.com Wed Jun 16 01:49:06 2004 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:49:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101492 In a message dated 6/5/2004 1:57:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, gregory_lynn at yahoo.com writes: > Draco and the gang hanging around trying to get a look at the > execution of Buckbeak. Now this is something that I think has > potential. He wants to see something get killed and it's only a > short step from there to wanting to see someone get killed, and it's > only a short step from there to killing someone. I was fascinated by you comment and agree. I teach about the correlation between animal abuse and child abuse, how the FBI uses animal abuse (even just watching an animals suffer) as a "red flag" for future human abuse. Do you know where it shows what you mentioned in the book? I know Draco is glad Buckbeak is going to die, but did they try to watch the execution? Pook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 01:49:33 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:49:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c45344$2ea65230$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101493 The dynamic that reveals Snape's character is not that between him and Harry, but between him and other students. I can buy Snape's personal grudge against Harry as a unique situation occurring simply because of their history. However, I cannot forgive his bullying others as well, especially Neville. Even if he has a personal grudge against Neville, it betrays a pattern (rather than a unique situation) and leads me to believe that Snape should not be responsible for the education of any child regardless of his talent. I am not saying he is an evil person, nor that DD trust in him is misplaced. He may pass on great Potions knowledge but the harm he does to children is criminal- on par with the Dursleys. Trevor From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:06:24 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:06:24 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <000501c45344$2ea65230$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trevor" wrote: > The dynamic that reveals Snape's character is not that between him and > Harry, but between him and other students. I can buy Snape's personal > grudge against Harry as a unique situation occurring simply because of their > history. However, I cannot forgive his bullying others as well, especially > Neville. Even if he has a personal grudge against Neville, it betrays a > pattern (rather than a unique situation) and leads me to believe that Snape > should not be responsible for the education of any child regardless of his > talent. I am not saying he is an evil person, nor that DD trust in him is > misplaced. He may pass on great Potions knowledge but the harm he does to > children is criminal- on par with the Dursleys. > > > > Trevor Alla. Trevor, word. :o) Although I cannot buy Snape's grudge against Harry either, because Harry did not do anything to Snape, James did. I can absolutely buy Snape's grudge against James, definitely, but not against Harry. Well, at least Harry stands up for himself most of the times. Neville, on the other hand.... What, what exactly did he do to Snape? As far as we know his parents did not bully Snape at school. :) Oh, I know... he is "incompetent" and Snape cannot stand incompetence, right? Well, you know what, in this situation "look at the teacher first" is definitely in order, IMO. Especially since we all know that Neville was always "competent" in Herbology and he became much more confident in DADA after OoP. Who was the teacher? Harry. I guess fifteen year old can teach better than Snape does. :o) Alla From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:07:18 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:07:18 -0000 Subject: Trelawney: Squib or Not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101495 "'If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights....' [Professor Trelawney] waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the only source of light now." (GoF, US Edition, page 575) But, of course, she could have learned that through Kwikspell... Justine From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 16 02:08:18 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:08:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) References: <001a01c45305$7e9b5ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <005f01c45346$cc17e270$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101496 It's that bit in OOP where all the teachers started showing Harry support as a way of passive resistance against Umbridge. Professor Sprout gave Gryffindor ten points when Harry passed her a water... umm that thing you water plants out of, Flitwick gave him some sweets and Trelawney broke down in tears and announced to the class that her previous predictions were wrong, Harry would live to a ripe old age, become Minister Of Magic and have 12 children. Alina. > Jacqui: > I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was > a certain incident (which I cant remember...sorry) then she all of a > sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can > anyone else remember what that incident was? > Jacqui > > > Sherry: > > Wasn't that in OOTP, when umbridge is observing the divination class? > Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I > can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or > audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. > > Sherry G From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 16 02:11:09 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:11:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why book seven? References: Message-ID: <007301c45347$314363e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101497 Maybe she let it slip, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems she asks us if we think getting rid of Voldemort would involve a green flame torch, except that's the supposed title for book six, not seven! tina. I always thought the whole "green torch" theory is a theory that all it will take to defeat Voldemort was one proper Avada Kedavra from Harry. But then, Rowling is already disproving it with her books, in my opinion, when she has DD say things like "there are things worse than death" and with the simple fact that AK has failed to kill Voldy once already. Alina. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 02:11:41 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:11:41 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > But Snape intimidated, humiliated and abused them since they were > eleven. How exactly Harry supposed suddenly start trusting Snape? > Well, but Snape trusts Harry. Harry doesn't seem to realize it, but he's got Snape's life in his hands at every moment. One little comment to Draco about seeing Snape in London, or one hint to a particularly chatty student like Colin Creevey about that mark on his arm, and Snape could be without a job or worse. It's to Harry's credit that he never thinks in those terms, even when he had the example of Fred and George blackmailing Ludo Bagman before him. It's also a sign of Snape's courage that he doesn't try to protect himself by buying off the Trio with special treatment. Most people with a lot of things to hide would be more careful about making enemies. In OotP, I think the Pensieve scene is partly about betraying trust. When Harry looks in, it's actually the SECOND time he's had a chance to do so. The first time was when the Occlumency lesson was disrupted by the noise upstairs of Umbridge throwing out Trelawney. Snape leave in a rush to take care of a crisis, and Harry is left alone with the Pensieve. He's tempted, but he doesn't look, and follows Snape out. I think that Snape noticed that Harry didn't snoop, and so he trusted him on the second occasion when he had to leave in mid-lesson. He was furious to come back and find that he'd been mistaken in Harry. Of course, he made it harder for himself; if he'd simply said after the first incident, "Oh, by the way, thanks for not peeking in the Pensieve," Harry would probably NEVER have looked the second time. He's that sort, who would respond to positive reinforcement - he wouldn't want to descend to lower behaviour after he'd set a high benchmark. But Snape of course would never thank Harry for anything, even for diplomatic reasons, so the opportunity was lost. Wanda From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 02:28:11 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:28:11 -0000 Subject: FILK: Weatherby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101499 Barty Crouch Sr. in his first HPF solo! Weatherby To the tune of Let it Be by the Beatles MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2729/index2.html I haven't done a Beatles tune for a long time. Naturally, this one is dedicated to Gail. BARTY CROUCH SR: When I find myself in need of flunkies, him I call ASAP Sending owls and memos, Weatherby And in my hour of thirstiness he's bringing me a cup of tea With biscuits and sugar, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby Send this urgent memo, Weatherby And when the thinly-bottomed cauldrons pose a threat to industry Go research the answer, Weatherby Because they are imported, we must vow to buy domestically That's the correct answer, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby That will be the answer, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby Putting out the fires, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby Putting out the fires, Weatherby And though my mind is maddened, there is still one wishing to be me Seeking to gain power, Weatherby But if next year, he's serving Corny, then he's crazier than me Confirming the number, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, yeah, Weatherby Opening his Howlers, Weatherby Weatherby, Weatherby, Weatherby, yeah, Weatherby Opening our Howlers, Weatherby - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:35:12 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:35:12 -0000 Subject: Trelawney: Squib or Not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Justine" wrote: > "'If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights....' > [Professor Trelawney] waved her wand and the lamps went out. The > fire was the only source of light now." (GoF, US Edition, page 575) > > But, of course, she could have learned that through Kwikspell... > > Justine Thank you! I have been reading since I came home just to find something like that! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:39:30 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:39:30 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101501 Here is the question I want to ask Snape apologists. :o) Suppose, we will learn later in the books that Snape never went back to spying since he started teaching at Hogwarts. Personally I always thought that whatever mission Dumbledore gave him at the end of GoF was not spying or at least not spying in its conventional sence. It would be too simple. Suppose it is a given that whatever Snape is doing for the Order is of totally different nature, that he does not have to go back to Voldie, EVER. Now, if every Death Eater kid knows already that Snape is a traitor and Snape does not have to keep appearances, would you still feel that what Snape does to Neville and Harry is justifiable? Thanks, Alla Alla From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:51:20 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:51:20 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Here is the question I want to ask Snape apologists. :o) > > > Suppose, we will learn later in the books that Snape never went back > to spying since he started teaching at Hogwarts. Personally I always > thought that whatever mission Dumbledore gave him at the end of GoF > was not spying or at least not spying in its conventional sence. It > would be too simple. > > Suppose it is a given that whatever Snape is doing for the Order is > of totally different nature, that he does not have to go back to > Voldie, EVER. > > > Now, if every Death Eater kid knows already that Snape is a traitor > and Snape does not have to keep appearances, would you still feel > that what Snape does to Neville and Harry is justifiable? > > > Thanks, > > > Alla IMHO, I dont but that, not one bit. I believe that Snape does indeed go back to V, and because he is so good at occlumency he is able to fool V that he has never gone back to the other side. In OOP 531 Snape is explaining this to Harry... "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection" That right there IMO is a big clue that Snape is still going back to V as a faithful DE. Jacqui Who can finally stop looking to see if Trelawney actually did magic :P From editor at texas.net Wed Jun 16 02:44:08 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:44:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Racism and Snape's grudge References: Message-ID: <004a01c4534c$fa659e00$9559aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101503 Pippin: > It's interesting where this might lead Snape with Draco, > because it seems that Snape wanted to believe Lucius had only > worked for Voldemort because of the Imperius curse. *pricks ears up* Where did you get that? (is interested) ~Amanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 02:55:57 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:55:57 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is > lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut > down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so > utter falsehoods in his presence without detection" > That right there IMO is a big clue that Snape is still going back to > V as a faithful DE. Not necessarily. He could be referring to his past experience with Voldemort, in his pre-Harry days. Snape definitely WAS a spy back then, and he would have had to lie to Voldemort. It was only his ability as an Occlumens that enabled him to do it and get away with it. It's not clear that he is still doing it now. But if he's not spying, I don't have a clue just what he IS doing. Wanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 02:58:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:58:36 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101505 Jacqui" wrote previously: > > > "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is > > lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut > > down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so > > utter falsehoods in his presence without detection" > > That right there IMO is a big clue that Snape is still going back > to > > V as a faithful DE. > Wanda: > Not necessarily. He could be referring to his past experience with > Voldemort, in his pre-Harry days. Snape definitely WAS a spy back > then, and he would have had to lie to Voldemort. It was only his > ability as an Occlumens that enabled him to do it and get away with > it. It's not clear that he is still doing it now. But if he's not > spying, I don't have a clue just what he IS doing. > > Wanda Alla: Exactly, to me this quote absolutely does not prove that he is spying right now. Actually, he could be spying as animagus. :o) (The non-conventional way) Alla From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 03:01:40 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 03:01:40 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Jacqui" wrote previously: > > > > > "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody > is > > > lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut > > > down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so > > > utter falsehoods in his presence without detection" > > > That right there IMO is a big clue that Snape is still going back > > to > > > V as a faithful DE. > > > > Wanda: > > > Not necessarily. He could be referring to his past experience with > > Voldemort, in his pre-Harry days. Snape definitely WAS a spy back > > then, and he would have had to lie to Voldemort. It was only his > > ability as an Occlumens that enabled him to do it and get away with > > it. It's not clear that he is still doing it now. But if he's not > > spying, I don't have a clue just what he IS doing. > > > > Wanda > > > Alla: > > Exactly, to me this quote absolutely does not prove that he is spying > right now. > > > Actually, he could be spying as animagus. :o) (The non- conventional > way) > > > Alla Hmmmm...I guess thats why they say to each his own eh? :P I actually thought it was brilliant on my part (I guess thats not saying much) :) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 03:06:39 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616030639.69528.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101507 I have some questions to throw out to the group - kind of a fishing trip - so to speak.... How many people would a train like the Hogwarts Express be able to carry? I have never been on a train and do not know. Do all students have to arrive by train or can they arrive other ways? This will help to put an end to the 250/1000 student debate. We have heard references of students switching schools. Is there anything in canon in it other than Malfoy saying that his father would switch him if things did not go his way? Halloween plays a very important part in all of the books. HP parents killed on Halloween, Troll loose, deathday party, picture slashed, name comes out of GoF, Hogsmead trip when DA started. What can we expect of the next two Halloweens? Wands choose the wizard. How? We have had a lot lately about Ron=DD. I tend to lean toward Percy=DD. The name is in there. Percy will do something now that he is with the MoM that he feels that he needs to go back and fix. Any ideas? Time is a big theme in all of the books and has come out forcefully with the newest movie. Each book looks at a different aspect of time. Where will the time threads lead from here? What will Dudley's reaction to HP be when he comes home? Has Petunia explained to the family that HP actually saved Dudley's life? We have the Map and the Cloak. Are there going to be any other surprises left behind by the infamous 4? What ever happened to Percy's girlfriend? (Penelope Clearwater) Where is the flying motorcycle? I have heard that it will play a part in the next books. "...And never did they dream that they Might someday be divided, For were there such friends anywhere As Slytherin and Gryffindor? Unless it was the second pair Of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw? So how could it have gone so wrong? How could such frienships fail?..." Sorting Hat (OotP US) So what did go wrong, especially with Slytherin and Gryffindor since they were best friends? I am sure that many of these have already been discussed, but with the perspective of the new things that we have learned, would anyone like to weigh in with ideas? Also, the posting about the Uncovering the Hidden Pattern. I do not remember who mentioned it, but I tried to look it up in the archives and could not find it. I would love to read the post. Could anyone give me any info on how to find it? Thanks you guys!! Moonmyyst (who is trying very hard to get a copy of PS to compare to SS) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Wed Jun 16 03:11:45 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:11:45 -0500 Subject: LOON to the rescue, was Re: Stopper in Death? References: <001a01c45305$7e9b5ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> <032101c45334$21220920$3ff86944@CarolynsComp> Message-ID: <009501c4534f$c84fa0c0$9559aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101508 Where have all the LOONs gone? > Jacqui: > I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was > a certain incident (which I can't remember...sorry) then she all of a > sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can > anyone else remember what that incident was? > > > Sherry: > Wasn't that in OOTP, when Umbridge is observing the divination class? > Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I > can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or > audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. > Carolyn: > I thought it was after getting past the dragon in GoF, but I don't have my books right now so I can't look it up. Not much help, hunh? LOON on deck. No, no, no. Trelawney's modified "long-life" prediction for Harry was one of the many positive but indirect teacher responses after Harry's interview about Voldemort's return was published in the Quibbler. Another round of such wild guessing and I may have to assign detentions.... ~Amanda, founding LOON From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 16 03:16:55 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:16:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101509 [Geoff wrote]: | | Geoff: | Can I ask a clarification for UK readers? Can I assume | that "electives" are what we would call "options", i.e. the choices | we make at Year 10 (the old Fourth Year) of subjects we are taking to | GCSE level? And which year is the "junior year" of High School? [Lee]: Sure, Geoff. :-) And, if anyone has additions or corrections, please give?? :-) Electives are optional courses that crop up in ninth grade. See below: In the US, there is primary school which goes from first through third grade; some places count kindergarten as part of the primary. Then comes elementary, fourth through sixth grades. After that, Junior High which goes seventh and eighth grades, though many include ninth as well. However, ninth grade is generally considered the freshman year of High School, which goes through 12th grade. The levels there are: ninth grade--freshman; tenth grade--sophomore; eleventh grade--junior; twelfth grade--senior. Generally, career/college counseling isn't done until the junior year. Also, in the senior year, there are tests known as Standard Achievement Tests (SATs), divided into two major categories, Math and English. Colleges/universities are interested in the scores and students with higher scores can, essentially, apply to whatever college/university they want. In New York State and, maybe, some others, there are exams called Regents; these are given throughout the H.S. years in maths and sciences, with English, Business and History given in the senior year. In ninth grade (freshman), languages are considered electives along with arts, some music courses, home economics, advanced math (like calculus), woodworking, etc. Does this help? Now, what is GCSE? General College Something? :-) Cheers, Lee :-) From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 03:20:18 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 03:20:18 -0000 Subject: LOON to the rescue, was Re: Stopper in Death? In-Reply-To: <009501c4534f$c84fa0c0$9559aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Where have all the LOONs gone? > > > Jacqui: > > I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was > > a certain incident (which I can't remember...sorry) then she all of a > > sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can > > anyone else remember what that incident was? > > > > > > Sherry: > > Wasn't that in OOTP, when Umbridge is observing the divination class? > > Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry > I > > can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or > > audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. > > > Carolyn: > > > I thought it was after getting past the dragon in GoF, but I don't have my > books right now so I can't look it up. Not much help, hunh? > > > LOON on deck. > > No, no, no. Trelawney's modified "long-life" prediction for Harry was one of > the many positive but indirect teacher responses after Harry's interview > about Voldemort's return was published in the Quibbler. > > Another round of such wild guessing and I may have to assign detentions.... > > ~Amanda, founding LOON Ahhhhh thank you much Amanda! :P It seems that quite a few of you are helping me in my research and for that I very much thank you. :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 16 03:20:57 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 03:20:57 -0000 Subject: Snape thought Lucius was under Imperio ? was Re: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: <004a01c4534c$fa659e00$9559aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Pippin: > > > It's interesting where this might lead Snape with Draco, because it seems that Snape wanted to believe Lucius had only worked for Voldemort because of the Imperius curse.<< Amanda: > *pricks ears up* > Where did you get that? (is interested) That's one explanation, (I can't remember who deserves the credit) for "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes moved back to Fudge." in GoF. Now that we know about legilimency, I read that as Snape being surprised and looking into Harry's eyes to see if he was telling the truth. If Snape was surprised to find out that Malfoy had returned to the circle, then perhaps he thought that Malfoy really had been under Imperius before. Pippin From arielock at aol.com Wed Jun 16 04:01:11 2004 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:01:11 -0000 Subject: Trelawney is a squib, here's why... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101512 (very long, many witness statements will be read into evidence) Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, cannon proves that Ms. Trelawney is a squib... Exhibit A: No one has actually seen her perform a spell: Jen Reese reopened this can of worms: "Right now, I can't remember one instance where Trelawney has used a wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene or find it in the books. " Arcum replied to basically the same question a few months ago with: GoF, US edition, page 575 "If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights. . . ." She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the only source of light now." To which Derek responded: "Just to be a nuisance, I must say it's interesting that she made them all look in a particular direction *before* she made the lamps go out. It gives it the feel of a real-world-type magic trick based on misdirection." Arianna: Just because she has a wand doesn't mean she can perform magic with it. She may have inherited it, she may have bought it at a second hand wand store, or it may be a stick she found in a hedge. The story is told from Harry's pov. He may assume that she is a witch and that that is her wand. He has assumed many things in the past that have been incorrect. Besides, as Justine notes, even if she did make the lights go out, she could have learned it from Kwikspell. With her flair for drama, if she is a witch, why is this all we have seen? If this group (HPfGU) hasn't found one direct instance of Trelawney actually performing magic, there is probably a reason. Arianna: Exhibit B: She does not have the ability to repair a tea cup. "Sure enough, Neville had no sooner than reached the shelf of teacups when there was a tinkle of breaking china. Professor Trelawney swept over to him holding a dustpan and brush and said..."(PoA US hardcover, chap. 6, p. 105) (Thanks to Jen for typing this up) Arianna: Even if, as David challenges, Trelawney magically broke the cup to ensure a correct prophesy, it still doesn't explain why she didn't repair the cup. Besides, it's out of character for her. She makes everything so overly dramatic, constantly predicting death. If she were a witch, why would she break a tea cup? Why not predict something dramatic like the roof caving in, then cause it and fix it to wild applause? Jen wrote in response to David: "Neville doesn't protest that he hadn't even picked up the cup before it broke, not that he would be one to confront a teacher. If Trelawney did use magic here, she's more devious than I've given her credit for! Actually, I think Neville believing he *would* break a cup, since Trelawney said so, is more on the mark--the old self-fulfilling prophecy." Potioncat pointed out: "Isn't wizarding housekeeping interesting? Here's Trelawney with a broom and dust pan for a broken cup, yet Snape can repair a broken jar with a spell. Things can be swept away with "evanesco" yet Filch is around to mop floors and scrub frog brains off ceilings." Arianna: Precisely. The connection between the manual labor performed by Filch and Trelawney is that they are both squibs. Harry repairs a bowl in OoP (p329), and Snape repairs a jar on p592 (OoP). If she were a witch, wouldn't she be able to repair her pink teacup if it were to shatter? If she went to Hogwarts, she would have learned the spell to repair a cup. Even first year students are shown being taught spells in transfiguration that seem much more complicated. A Hogwarts letter is sent to every magical child in the district (for lack of a better word). If Trelawney is a witch, she would have gone to school, and would have learned this spell. Which leads to... Arianna still: Exhibit C: Dumbledore had never met her before she applied for the job of divination professor. She was never a student at Hogwarts. When Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophesy, he states (OoP 840 American Ed.), "I thought it common politeness to meet her." Now perhaps I am taking this too literately, but the implication is that Dumbledore has never seen this woman before. It would have been just as easy, and more likely, to have referred to her as a former student if she had been. It could be possible that she attended another wizarding school, but Hogwarts is the only school of its kind in England (or Scotland), and no one has made any mention of Trelawney having an accent. Exhibit D: Umbridge was so keen to get rid of her in OoP because she hates squibs. Vecsey posted this many moons ago regarding Umbridge: "and WHY did she hate Trelawney so much? She isn't a half breed, it just didn't add up." Arianna: Umbridge hates Trelawney because she is a squib, it's that simple. She and Fudge display a similar amount of dismissiveness and disdain towards Mrs. Figg during Harry's trial (OoP 143-145 Am Ed). She doesn't seem to know that Mr. Filch is one, too, as she orders him not to perform any magic on the Weasley twins fireworks. Now the defense might ask: "How can Trelawney have known private info about some students? For example, she makes an unsolicited reference to Neville's grandmother during their first class in PoA. How could she have known that she was a significant person in his life? Even if she was aware of the fate of his parents, wouldn't she have to have been involved in the wizarding world to have heard of the tragedy?" No. The Longbottom's torture took place well after Trelawney met Dumbledore, and squibs are involved in the wizarding world if they choose to be. My bet, though, is that she used the same technique employed by real world "psychics." She found a way to secretly listen to the students' conversations. In this case, when HRH finally find the divination classroom for the first time (PoA), they notice all their classmates sitting outside her office *talking*. Trelawney was just listening to their conversations and lowered the ladder when she had gathered enough info to make an impressive first class. She probably also heard Neville complaining about how clumsy he is. The woman is a squib. I rest my case. Arianna (who can't wait for the defense to present their case that we have cannon evidence proving she is a witch ) From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 16 04:17:02 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:17:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101513 | From: Jacqui | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 5:45 AM | --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" | wrote: | > Right now, I can't remember one instance where Trelawney has used a | > wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? Someone mentioned | > she dimmed her lights at one point, but I can't recall this scene | or | > find it in the books. [Jacqui]:| | Once you asked that I really had to think If I have ever seen her | with a wand, but I did stumble across this: | | OOP p.594 | Professor Trelawney was standing in the middle of the entrance hall | with her wand in one hand and an empty sherry bottle in the other. | | Now I know it doesn't say anything about her using any magic, but why | would she have her wand out? I am going to look for more stuff this | evening when I get home from work :P [Lee]: I'd say that fire of hers might be magical; we don't know how she starts it, we don't know what she puts into it. :-) I have to wonder if there are various grades of magicalness; we've got squibs who can't do anything most people regard as magical; but are there other levels? JKR hasn't tackled this really, but I have to wonder, as I recall seeing some wizards do magic without need of a want, i.e. snapping fingers and tying someone up, as I think it happened in SS/PS when Harry was tied up by Quirrell. Cheers, Lee :-) From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Wed Jun 16 05:03:47 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:03:47 -0700 Subject: What was the Order of the Phoenix? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101514 I never thought about the Order of the Phoenix being an older society until someone just suggested it in response to this post... saying that as a Phoenix lives on and is reborn, perhaps the Order has lived on over many centuries. Right? I thought the Order wasn't for protecting the Potters and Longbottoms, but it kind of was a secret society.. the originator of this message said that the Order didn't have to be secret because the Ministry was on board, but perhaps they were still secret- the ministry had moles, so the Order was a group of wizards kind of hand picked by Dumbledore (I just recalled that Hermione said that it was founded by Dumbledore, so I guess that first paragraph is meaningless, hehe), because he knew he could trust them. It would be a greater benefit to have a secret society fighting the Death Eaters; the DE's wouldn't expect an organization of wizards banded together for the purpose of fighting them, and the Order may have kept secret to protect their identities. Anyway, I wanted to say that I always thought it had been secret, because no one knew who to trust... so Dumbledore formed a covert organization of wizards he knew personally and could trust to fight with him. Aesha From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 05:24:17 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:24:17 -0000 Subject: OotP=Order of Christ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101515 With the (now old) news of Lupin's middle name, I toyed with the idea of the marauders--uncapitalized, as JKR types it--and the Order of the Phoenix representing God, Jesus, and the twelve Apostles. First, we have Sirius, James, Remus John, and Peter, with Sirius representing Jesus, James and Remus as the Sons of Thunder, and Peter, strangely, as the Rock who becomes the world's first Pope. James, John, and Peter seemed to be Jesus's closest and most trusted friends--they were the three that accompanied him everywhere, and were the only Apostles present at the event called "The Transfiguration." The Animagi are obviously associated, in JKR's world, with Transfiguration, as the topic was covered in Professor McGonagall's class third year. Now, if we listen to Moody's description of the old photograph of the Order, there are thirteen members of the original Order still alive at this point: Sirius, Remus, Peter, Moody himself, Dumbledore, Dedalus Diggle, Emmeline Vance, Sturgis Podmore, Hagrid, Elphias Doge, Aberforth Dumbledore, and the Longbottoms. Delete Dumbledore--representing God--and Sirius, and throw in James, and the number becomes twelve. For those skeptical about Sirius as Jesus, believe me, I had trouble with it as well. But consider this: the three wisemen followed a star, one that must have stood out from all the others, and the Dog Star is the brightest in the sky, and as I read through my Bible, there was no mention of the North Star at all. The number of the magi, their names, the specificity of the North Star (Polaris) were added to the story long after the Book of Matthew was written. And how can Pettigrew be Simon Peter instead of Judas Iscariot? Okay, try to bear with me here... Perhaps he's both. Let's scratch Aberforth from the list, shall we? He seems to be the only member of the Order not participating this time 'round who is neither afflicted by madness nor dead. That makes the number eleven, and allows Peter to play both roles. Simon Peter denies Jesus three times; Voldemort attempts to kill the Potters three times before he actually succeeds. The act of denial can also be seen as an act of betrayal... in denying Jesus, Simon Peter actively betrays Jesus and his comrades. Perhaps Pettigrew was the key to each of Voldemort's battles with the James and Lily. With their murders, though, Peter's role as Simon Peter ends and he becomes Judas. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, who receives thirty pieces of silver; Sirius is framed by Peter, who eventually receives a silver hand. Besides, wouldn't naming him Judas Pettigrew be a tad bit obvious? ;-) I'm working on the other Apostles, but I must say that the task is a bit daunting, since we have very little information on them and on the other members of the Order. Could "Constant Vigilance!" Moody equal Doubting Thomas? Will Peter redeem himself and garner some high-ranking position in the Wizarding World, as Simon Peter redeemed himself and became Pope? Will he then be murdered in the fashion Sirius was, only backwards, as Simon Peter was crucified upside down? And who is Matthias, the replacement of Judas? Will the entire Order--save all but one of the newest members, Remus, and Dumbledore--die to support their cause, as the Apostles did spreading Jesus's Word? Now here comes the craziest part of my theory: When Jesus died and was resurrected, it was the work of God. He ascended into Heaven, where He opened the Golden Gates. Sirius has "died"... could the veil be pierced by Albus Percival, the representation of all that is good and, therefore, God? Will Sirius, in some form, open the golden gates, located next to the security stand at the end of the Atrium, of the Ministry of Magic? Justine, who is happy to say that John was Jesus's most loyal disciple and lived to an old age--the only Apostle to die of natural causes From AntaresTCH at aol.com Wed Jun 16 02:21:46 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:21:46 EDT Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101516 Alla: <<<>>>> I would think that Snape may hate Harry not only because James is his father, but also because Lily died trying to save Harry. If it wasn't for Harry, Snape may reason, Lily would be alive. Cheryl H. "The spiders. The spiders are making me tap dance." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 02:25:07 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:25:07 -0700 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c45349$242e7940$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101517 Alla: > Neville, on the other hand.... What, what exactly did he do to > Snape? As far as we know his parents did not bully Snape at > school. :) Oh, I know... he is "incompetent" and Snape cannot > stand incompetence, right? > > Well, you know what, in this situation "look at the teacher first" > is definitely in order, IMO. > > Especially since we all know that Neville was always "competent" > in Herbology and he became much more confident in DADA after OoP. > Who was the teacher? Harry. I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape mistreats: his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right to belittle or to call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in front of the DADA class in POA). I think his immature, petty, and constant bullying gets in the way of his teaching. How can Snape move on to potions that are more difficult when a significant portion of his class is struggling? Neville has problems in his academics, but the OWL testing shows that it is his fear of Snape rather than his abilities in potions that holds him back from doing well in the class. We do not see into other classes but testimony from other students, Snape treats other classes no better. Snape is a weak man corrupted in his power over children. Trevor From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 02:38:46 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:38:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Ginny's older sister" References: Message-ID: <008d01c4534b$0ce1be30$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101518 Who wouldn't want to have Tonks for an older sister? I just cringe at the instances of her clumsiness. She's so obviously trying to help and I, for one, am afraid she's going to get hurt in some kind of stupid accident. All those scenes at Sirius' house in oOTP. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! From littlekat10 at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 03:59:46 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:59:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic was Trelawney and her Magic References: Message-ID: <015b01c45356$5cfd1800$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101519 Kate brings up a good point and leads me to ask a question. Is it strictly necessary to perform magic with a wand? Could there not be other ways to perform magic? Is divination considered magic in Harry's world? If so, then Professor Trelawney most certainly has done magic. Littlekat From littlekat10 at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 04:09:35 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:09:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Ginny's older sister" References: Message-ID: <021a01c45357$bc333830$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101520 Beth, I thought that JKR was trying to say that she looked like an older Ginny. Maybe I am wrong, though. Littlekat From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 04:44:53 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:44:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101521 >>>From: cubfanbudwoman [mailto:susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net] Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... It seems to me that the report of Sirius laughing after the blown-up street always weighed heavily against him, and even when we did discover his innocence, it's not one of those things which instantly made sense in light of the new facts. Why WAS he laughing?<<< That does seem odd, but I always thought it was an indication of him having some sort of breakdown. I think he knew that PP got one over on him (I mean, he was standing there facing PP and suddenly the street blows up and PP is gone and Sirius knows he himself didn't do it!). Maybe his maniacal laughter had to do with knowing he was left holding the bag, maybe it had to do with knowing he and his friends actually helped PP become a better wizard (thereby ensuring that he would one day have the power to screw them over), or maybe he realized PP was the spy giving info. out to Voldie (I'm assuming, don't know if canon supports it) which may have been his reason for switching S-Ks. Although, I never understood that. If you know you are not a traitor, why give up your position as S-K? That never made sense to me. Barbara bd-bear From AntaresTCH at aol.com Wed Jun 16 04:28:15 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:28:15 EDT Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle Message-ID: <1d1.238ffb6c.2e01265f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101522 At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. Cheryl H. "You must choose, but choose wisely." The Ancient Knight of the Templar, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. "You will have to make a choice." Morpheus and the Oracle to Neo, The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded. "It is our choices that show who we are far more than our abilities." Albus Dumbledore. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 04:53:10 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:53:10 -0000 Subject: Sinistra (Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come) In-Reply-To: <03f501c45338$0aa165c0$3ff86944@CarolynsComp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101523 Stefanie: >>>[snip]Sinistra is the star on the right hand of the constellation Ophiuchus -- the Serpent Bearer. In this case could, Sinistra being the right hand of the "serpent bearer" indicate that there's more than meets the eye to this mysterious professor?<<< >>Carolyn: For some reason, your question brings this to my mind: where does she sit at the head table, in relation to Snape?<< Stefanie: Being the dork that I am, I watched the CoS DVD this afternoon (gotta love summer vacations) looking for any trace of Sinistra -- it's been hinted at (though not confirmed to the best of my knowledge) that if something is left in the movie, it just may be important (although, considering the PoA movie that may be circumspect) At the end of the film after Hermione returns to the Great Hall, Dumbledore thanks Pomfrey and Sprout for the mandrake juice and there is much rejoicing -- there is a shot of Snape and a "mystery woman" sitting to his right. Then after Dumbledore cancels tests, these two are shown again with similar stern looks about them. Could this be Professor Sinistra? A fellow Potterhead pointed out that this could also be Professor Vector -- there's nothing in the credits to say either way. As for canon evidence -- I cant' find anything about the order of the High Table in regards to Sinistra...anyone have anything? Stefanie From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 05:04:39 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:04:39 -0000 Subject: Silent/Wandless Magic? (was Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101524 >>> Lee wrote: ... as I recall seeing some wizards do magic without need of a want, i.e. snapping fingers and tying someone up, as I think it happened in SS/PS when Harry was tied up by Quirrell. <<< Bren now: I had been wondering about that for a while now. Can a wizard perform magic without saying incantation outloud, or better yet, without a wand? In PoA, during Harry's first encounter with Dementors, Lupin seemed to do magic without saying incantation loudly. "There was a soft, crackling noise and a shivering light filled the compartment. Professor Lupin appeared to be holding a handful of fames" (PoA, 65. UK) Of course, this can also be explained the same way HErmione casts her specialty fire; she didn't seem to have said it outloud, though can't remember where I got the idea from. "... And he said, 'None of us is hiding Sirius Black under our cloaks. Go.' But the Dementor didn't moce, so Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot out of his wand at it..." (PoA, 67. UK) This interests me a bit. Lupin insists that he's "not an expert at fighting the dementors, quite the contrary..." but we know from HArry's experience with Dementors, one needs to heavily concentrate on a happy memory and cast the spell with full force, outloud (Harry "bellowed" in PoA). And I'm assuming that HArry's ability to produce a Patronous is quite superb, on the same level as other grown- up masters of well-advanced magic. Then how could Lupin just "muttered" the Patronus Charm? Unless he's had many training with Dementors (or it comes with the nature of werewolves?) This could very well be another movie-contamination (I think it is actually, can't find the canon in the books), but all those times Lupin opened the trunk and whatnot with hand - how does *that* work? Dumbledore does it too (again in the movies, not sure about the books though) with "changing the decoration" in PS/SS and candlelight on- and-off in PoA. Not to mention the powerful magical abilities of House-Elves. Brenda, who realizes she might be expecting posts that say "it only happened in the movie, not in the books"... From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 06:52:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:52:35 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/5/2004 1:57:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > gregory_lynn at y... writes: Pook: > Do you know where it shows what you mentioned in the book? I know Draco is > glad Buckbeak is going to die, but did they try to watch the execution? Geoff: Not in the book. Here, the Trio have gone out to Hagrid's place under the Invisibility Cloak and there i no reference to Draco. I've only seen the film once so far and don't recall him or his cronies being around at the time. The Trio are behind the pumpkins at that point. From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 05:17:00 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:17:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c45361$2743bba0$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101526 Aesha: > I thought the Order wasn't for protecting the Potters and Longbottoms, > but it kind of was a secret society.. It would be a greater > benefit to have a secret society fighting the Death Eaters; the DE's > wouldn't expect an organization of wizards banded together for the > purpose of fighting them, and the Order may have kept secret to > protect their identities. I felt that is was simply an organization to fight VM as well. It disbanded at his apparent demise but existed for unknown length before that. Otherwise, all the people Moody pointed out to Harry that died did so in a very short time frame- and in service to Harry/ Neville (talk about a guilt trip). I'm sure it disbanded with the promise that it would revive should it be needed (with VM's return). Trevor From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 16 07:00:41 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:00:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CFF019.6060905@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101527 I believe I found out what gave JKR "the chills": it's the state of Dumbledore's fingernails. They obviously reveal the big secret of book 6: DD is an animagus, and turns into a mole. Irene P.S. No, really, someone in the makeup department just watched Lord of the Rings too many times, and failed to notice the difference between the situations. :-) From AntaresTCH at aol.com Wed Jun 16 06:09:05 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:09:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary Message-ID: <1e3.23017f47.2e013e01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101528 Jenni wrote: <<< I don't see how Sirius knowing that Peter was an animagus would necessarily equate to him not believing that Peter was dead.? After all, *Lupin* thought Peter was dead and *he* knew that Peter was an Animagus.? Granted, he also thought that it was Sirius who killed Peter and Sirius could conceivably have an advantage over V. because he already know that Peter was an Animagus, but that seems somewhat iffy to me.<<< I don't think that Sirius knew that Pettigrew was alive until he saw him on the front page of the paper when the Weasleys went to Egypt. A visitor gave Sirius the paper, remember? And right after that he escaped. Surely he could have escaped as a dog before this, but this gave him the motivation to do it. He was heard to say in his sleep in Azkaban, "He's at Hogwarts, he's at Hogwarts." Thus the photograph in the paper is the conflict that give POA it's entire plot. Cheryl H. "You must choose, but choose wisely." The Ancient Knight of the Templar, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. "You will have to make a choice." Morpheus and the Oracle to Neo, The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded. "It is our choices that show who we are far more than our abilities." Albus Dumbledore. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jun 16 06:51:11 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:51:11 -0000 Subject: Why book seven? + Avada Kedavra In-Reply-To: <007301c45347$314363e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101529 Alina wrote: > I always thought the whole "green torch" theory is a theory that > all it will take to defeat Voldemort was one proper Avada Kedavra > from Harry. But then, Rowling is already disproving it with her > books, in my opinion, when she has DD say things like "there are > things worse than death" and with the simple fact that AK has > failed to kill Voldy once already. Paul: I am relatively new to the list and I don't know if there was a thread about AK. Anyway some thoughts about this matter. I am considering AK as a way to absorb the life essence of the victim and enhance the power of the wand or the killer. That is my impression from the priory incantatem scene in GoF. Also there is no LV echo in that scene. Which means something was different in that case. What if the AK was not rebounded when it had stricken HP? What if the protective charm changed the nature of the curse and affected the body rather than the life essence of LV? What I want to say with all these is that we don't know how the AK will affect LV at the end. As for the phrase 'there are things worse than death', I cannot imagine something worst than my life essence enhancing the abilities of my enemy and at the same time myself being aware of this. From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 06:50:04 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:50:04 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101530 Lee: > Now, what is GCSE? General College Something? :-) GCSE is a General Certificate of Secondary Education, the equivalent of the old 'O' level, taken via coursework/examination aged 15/16. Burno From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 16 07:17:21 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 03:17:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mechanics of Broom Flight In-Reply-To: <40CED8FB.9010908@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101531 | From: squeakinby | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:10 AM | I imagine that they are steered much in the same way you steer a | motorcycle--by leaning. In the movies (sorry) Harry is seen to pull up | on the stick to slow down, much as you would a horse but why doesn't the | broom go ballistic like a jet? How does it know you want to slow down [Lee]" Because he hasn't added power or has reduced power, just as in an airplane. Example: Lower the nose (or end of broomstick) and increase speed, reduce altitude; Raise nose an power, increase altitude; Raise nose gently, increase altitude gently. Raise nose and decrease the power, gentle descent, depending upon how much one decreases the power. Power is the main variable pertaining to altitude. Turns; On a motorcycle, as well as on aircraft, one would lean in the direction of the turn. So, on a broomstick, one would persuade the nose/end to the right and lean to the right to make a right turn. On most aircraft,one uses the yoke/stick and the rudder to make what is called a "coordinated Turn." This is, of course, assuming that broomstick aerodynamics will correspond to normal aircraft aerodynamics. I should tell you that I've spent about a half hour in discussion with my pilot/instructor husband to get this all straight! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who should lay off the scotch/fire whiskey for the night! I'm functioning like Winky!) :-)) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 16 08:54:12 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:54:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sinistra (Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what... Message-ID: <191.2a529351.2e0164b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101532 In a message dated 6/16/2004 3:08:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, musicofsilence at hotmail.com writes: At the end of the film after Hermione returns to the Great Hall, Dumbledore thanks Pomfrey and Sprout for the mandrake juice and there is much rejoicing -- there is a shot of Snape and a "mystery woman" sitting to his right. Then after Dumbledore cancels tests, these two are shown again with similar stern looks about them. Could this be Professor Sinistra? A fellow Potterhead pointed out that this could also be Professor Vector -- there's nothing in the credits to say either way. ============== Sherrie here: You mean the one with the funky hat and too-dark lipstick? Brace yourselves, luves - according to the WB official HP website, THAT is our own dear Madam Pince. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 10:46:20 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:46:20 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Express rolling stock (was Fishing for ideas) In-Reply-To: <20040616030639.69528.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: Moonmyyst: > How many people would a train like the Hogwarts Express be able to carry? I have never been on a train and do not know. Do all students have to arrive by train or can they arrive other ways? This will help to put an end to the 250/1000 student debate. Geoff: I'm not entirely sure that this reply will settle the debate because there isn't necessarily a fixed answer. I speak as a lifelong railfan in the UK. In PS, the description of the train is vague with comments about the "first few coaches" and "near the end of the train" which aren't very helpful. If I might be allowed to look at the representation of the Hogwarts Express in the DVD, I can be a little more specific. The train in the film uses a preserved locomotive and preserved carriages and is filmed on the West Highland line between Fort William and Mallaig as well as at Kings Cross. The viaduct sequences are on the Glenfinnan Viaduct. The locomotive, just for completeness, is 5972, an ex-Great Western "Hall" class mixed traffic engine, one of a fleet of over 200 which is usually painted in Brunswick green with the name "Olton Hall". It is difficult to tell with absolute accuracy from the DVD but there appear to be 5 or possibly 6 coaches on the train. They are Mark I stock, built by the nationalised British Railways in the early 1950s and they would seat about 50 passengers except for the brake coaches (into which you see Hedwig being loaded) which have a luggage area and probably seat half that number. So, if there are 6 coaches, the capacity is something of the order of 275 people (5 ordinary coaches plus a brake). However, if JKR had been thinking of the modern Real World, she might be influenced by modern Mark 3 or Mark 4 stock. Mark 4 stock does appear in the DVD - the GNER trains in the background at Kings Cross (in dark blue livery with a red relief line) are made up with this stock. These are longer and seat around 60 people. So, to be quite honest, we can only speculate as to how many folk might be on the HE which leaves your question unresolved. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 10:54:19 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:54:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <1d1.238ffb6c.2e01265f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AntaresTCH at a... wrote: Cheryl H.: > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to > discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle > plays a part in the final two books. Geoff: A person can drive a small motocycle (up to 50cc I think) at the age of 16. For a larger machine, IIRC they have to pass their driving test and ahve to be 17. However, Sirius' machine is described as "huge" when Hagrid arrives on it at the beginning of Philosopher's Stone. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 10:57:24 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:57:24 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101535 I, Del, wrote : > > So yes, if I were in Harry's shoes, I'd try and show respect to > > Snape, just to get him off my back. finwitch replied : > Define 'show respect' when there is none? Snape - though he IS > excellent at Potions, he > > a) abuses his power to take points/give detention in order to avenge > something Harry's dead father did decades ago... Del answers : Yep, that happens. All the time. Not just at school either. My best way to fight that is to show those people who might be prejudiced against me because of their relationship with someone else, that I am most definitely not that someone else. I might be loyal to that someone else, but I am not them. Harry has the misfortune of looking extremely like his father, and of being a very good Quidditch player. I guess in his place I would have done all I could to end the "bad" (in Snape's eyes) similarities here. And first thing first, I would have studied Potions harder than anything else, just to show to Snape that I won't retaliate automatically like my father did. But that's just ME, and Harry is not like me at all. Finwitch wrote : > b) is lowsy as a teacher Del replies : I guess it depends on how you grade a teacher : by his methods, or by his results ? I had a horrible horrible Maths teacher in my last year of High School, when Maths was my most important subject, and I had 9 hours a week with her. She was so demeaning that after barely 3 weeks of class she had convinced me that I belonged in kindergarden. I had an awfully miserable year because of her. But I got an extremely good result in Maths at the Final Exams. So yes she had horrible teaching methods, and yes I hate her on a personal level (though it might change if I knew her personally, you never know), but no she wasn't a lousy teacher. Finwitch wrote : > c) at least was a Death Eater, and therefore the enemy Del replies : So what ? Just because someone *was* your enemy doesn't mean you should treat them if though they were *still* your enemy. Many older French people had to learn that regarding Germans, and many younger ones are learning it regarding Arabo-Muslim people. Finwitch wrote : > Nah - I think his staying silent during class is enough, and Snape > ought to behave himself. Del replies : Much good it did to their relationship... Waiting for the other to move first rarely brings good results : look at Harry and Ron's fallout in GoF. Finwitch wrote : > And yes, it's probably *easy* to grovel in front of someone who has > the power to do you harm, it's not the *right* thing to do. Harry > does do the right thing rather than the easy, doesn't he? I loved > how he acted towards Dumbridge... Del replies : First off, it's not easy. Second, it isn't grovelling. And third, it *is* the right thing to do according to my goals : I'm not trying to force the others to change, I'm just trying to better our relationship. In other words, I'm not talking about forcing people to change their *feelings* towards me, only their *behaviour*. It *is* possible to hate or despise someone and still act civil towards them, you know ? And that's why I hated the way Harry acted towards Umbridge : because it didn't bring him anything positive. It gave Umbridge the pleasure of torturing him evening after evening, but what did *Harry* get out of it ?? The satisfaction to let her know that she didn't get to him ? There are other ways to do that : Hermione didn't land herself in detention and still I'm pretty sure Umbridge was aware of Hermione's opinion of her. What else ? The pleasure of being called a hero by Cho ? Well, OK, this one I can understand :-) Finwitch wrote : > Aside, I just wonder am I correct in assuming that those of you in > the opinion that it's Harry who should do more, have never read or > seen the movie based on the book (by the same name) _The Dead Poets' > Society_? (I saw the movie first, and it was one of those waking > moments of my life - Read the book later...). Del replies : I saw the movie. Cried a lot. Because it was all so STUPID !! So much loss, so much grief, all for almost *nothing* : if only those kids had understood that their freedom was only a matter of *time*, not a matter of gaining power over those in power ! The only thing that made it all worth it in my eyes was the Neville-like character (can't remember his name, the one played by Ethan Hawke) : he did get something valuable out of all that mess. But at what price !? Finwitch wrote : > As I see it, Harry will defy those who try to deny free will, > individuality & basic human rights. As long as Snape violates > Harry's sense of what's right, Harry will continue to defy him. And > so, IMO, he should. Del replies : Then Harry's got a long fight in front of him. Because let's face it : there is *always* someone somewhere who somehow denies human rights. I'm not saying it's useless, quite the contrary, just that it never ends. Moreover, there's a danger in what you said : "Harry's sense of what's right". Not everyone has the same concept of what's right. So fighting someone else's idea of right might actually be a wrong thing to do sometimes. Look at Hermione and her SPEW. Del From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 11:15:13 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616111513.45499.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101536 --- lifeavantgarde wrote: > I've heard rumors about this "little hint" but have > yet to see the > actual interview in which JKR actually makes this > comment... > > But if we're speculating: Like you, I've not read the actual comment. But I thought she said something in book 2 would play heavy in book 5. If that is the case, then I think it very likely she was referring to the portraits in Dumbledore's office. I know they were mentioned in CoS. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 11:29:43 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:29:43 -0000 Subject: Trelawney is a squib, here's why... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arielock2001" wrote: > (very long, many witness statements will be read into evidence) > > Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, cannon proves that Ms. > Trelawney is a squib... > > Exhibit A: No one has actually seen her perform a spell: > > Jen Reese reopened this can of worms: > "Right now, I can't remember one instance where Trelawney has > used a wand or otherwise performed magic. Anyone else? > Someone mentioned she dimmed her lights at one point, but I > can't recall this scene or find it in the books. " > Arcum replied to basically the same question a few months > ago with: > GoF, US edition, page 575 > "If you will all look this way, I will dim the lights. . . ." > She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the > only source of light now." > To which Derek responded: > "Just to be a nuisance, I must say it's interesting that she > made them all look in a particular direction *before* she made > the lamps go out. It gives it the feel of a real-world-type > magic trick based on misdirection." > Arianna: > Just because she has a wand doesn't mean she can perform > magic with it. She may have inherited it, she may have bought it > at a second hand wand store, or it may be a stick she found in a > hedge. The story is told from Harry's pov. He may assume that > she is a witch and that that is her wand. He has assumed many > things in the past that have been incorrect. > Besides, as Justine notes, even if she did make the lights go > out, she could have learned it from Kwikspell. snip Actually, if Trelawny were actually a Squib, Kwikspell, which is more of a refresher course for untalented witches and wizards, would harldy have helped her. If she had no natural magical talents, no correspondece course would be able to teacher her those. Besides, the course didn't seem to do anything for Filch, now did it? Meri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 11:30:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:30:47 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101538 Dzeytoun wrote: > It may turn out that Snape is playing a part. I personally deeply > doubt it. I think all the evidence points to the fact that he > genuinely hates and despises Harry, and Dumbledore, as the > Headmaster himself says, underestimated the depths of Snape's > feeling. I may, however, be proved wrong. Del replies : All right, let's say Snape hates Harry, which I think is probably the case. My question is then : so what ? It's unfortunate, it's painful, yes. There's nothing Harry can do to change that. But there are most definitely things he can do to make matters even worse. Dzeytoun wrote: > It may turn out that some students react well to Snape's methods. > We don't know. The idea that he is an excellent Potions master and > his students do well is pure speculation. Del replies : I can't give you canon for this, but I'm pretty sure both ideas are actually true. The fact that Snape is a good Potions master is certain for sure, and I seem to remember reading about Snape's students' good results at their OWLs. And in fact, both Harry and Neville are proof to that, since Harry notices that they both seem to have done well during their OWL practice paper. Dzeytoun wrote: > My own experience as a teacher is that very few students react well > to such methods, and the result is almost always poor learning and > deep emotional pain. But it may turn out that Snape is an > exception. Del replies : As I said in another post, I had a Maths teacher very much like Snape in my last year if high school. I spent a horrible year because of her, failed all my exams throughout the year, and did remarkably well at the Finals. Learning was hard and painful with her, but it was effective. I sure worked harder with her breathing down my neck, than with my Biology teacher who was the nicest man around but who never pushed us, and my final results reflected that. And not just mine either. Oh, by the way, do you know why that teacher hated me ? Because I hadn't been in her class the previous year, but in a better one. So she hated all of us who came from that better class, and favoured anyone who had been in her class. Talk about unjustified hatred :-) Dzeytoun wrote: > Snape certainly gives the students experience in dealing with nasty, > unkind people, who make up a distressingly large percentage of the > population. Del replies : Yep. And also that being nice and being on the good side don't go together. Though Harry doesn't seem to have truly learned that lesson yet :-) Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 11:35:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:35:44 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101539 > SSSusan: > I concur with you about violently disagreeing with a couple of > things he's done [dropping Harry's potion vial being one of them; > berating & intimidating Neville being another], but as I posted > earlier today, I'm *working on* understanding Snape w/in the > Hogwarts context. > x Potioncat: I don't know what DD was thinking. I know he has two roles: Leader of the anti-LV group and Headmaster. But if you ask me, he confuses them. He took a young man, rumored at 11 to be up to his eyes in dark arts, who has the social skills of a rattlesnake, and was/is a member of the Death Eaters and gave him a job TEACHING children? >From DD's point of view, Snape must be performing beyond his wildest dreams! Potioncat (who read the rattlesnake phrase this week, but doesn't remember who wrote it.) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jun 16 11:43:37 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:43:37 -0000 Subject: Silent/Wandless Magic? (was Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101540 Brenda asked: > Can a wizard > perform magic without saying incantation outloud, or better yet, > without a wand? In PoA, during Harry's first encounter with > Dementors, Lupin seemed to do magic without saying incantation loudly. Oh, I think they can - my impression is that it happens all over the place. Dumbledore is forever clapping or twiddling his wand without speech to change the decorations, draw up chairs, make sleeping bags, extract Pensieve memories, put out street lights - the list is endless. Molly orchestrates a whole kitchen, Lupin boils a kettle and makes flames in his hand, Death Eaters do the 'slash' spell, Snape makes ropes to tie Lupin, Sirius and Lupin turn Pettigrew back to human, Pettigrew then turns back to a rat, a baby engorges a slug, all without evident speech. Perhaps most impressively, the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort is fought in silence, IIRC. I get the impression that, despite what Flitwick says about the importance of pronunciation, once you have grown up and become adept, you can do a lot of the basic spells almost without thinking. David From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 11:46:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:46:39 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101541 > Alla: > > Eh,maybe, if the said students met Snape for the first time when they > are fifteen. Even in that situation I will not be sure. > > > But Snape intimidated, humiliated and abused them since they were > eleven. How exactly Harry supposed suddenly start trusting Snape? Potioncat: I agree. I also agree with Irene's comments about the Occlumency lessons. I thought Snape treated Harry sternly, but not tauntingly in these classes. What I find interesting is that some readers see insults. I think it is the difference between seeing lessons from Harry's point of view and seeing them from Snape's. But there was not a chance these two could be successful. From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Wed Jun 16 09:38:05 2004 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:38:05 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > vmonte wrote: > snip > > > > Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year > old). > > He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also there > > but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is killed > > there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because > > Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the > rubble. > > Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his death. Vmonte - While not wishing to quibble with your dream (you have much better dreams than I do!), a perhaps even more exciting prospect is that Harry does go back in time, does fail to save Lily, but IS the cause of his own survival. There is the matching wands thing and all its inherent surprises, for a start. (Alternatively, if you want to read the prophecy the other way, Neville could be the means of intervention just as easily.) Snape's involvement is an interesting thesis, but not necessary to the success of the basic premise. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 16 11:49:11 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:49:11 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Off this thread a bit, but still somewhat appropriate, I find it > amusing that in my work, managing a library video collection, I just > this moment picked up a video entitled The Teenage Brain: A World of > Their Own, with the following description: > > "Research has shown that during puberty, when the brain begins > teeming with hormones, the pre-frontal cortex, the center of > reasoning and impulse control, is still a work in progress." > > Hee. I'm sure some would find that an apt description of our Harry? > Are you surprised? Anyone who's actually *been* a teenage male recognises that as a gross understatement. Hormones, sexual and aggressive run rampant and are barely restrained by social pressures. It's the main reason why fathers tend to be so protective of their daughters - memories. Most adult males look back and thank their God that Legilimancy doesn't exist in the real world. If it did 99% of teenage males would be in permanent lock-down. Normally they grow out of it by the time they're 30. Harry's an exception. The main teenage male obsessions (sex, girls, sex, fantasy, girls, sex) don't seem to occupy much of his mental activities. Perhaps he should be referred to an Endocrinologist for assessment; there could be something seriously wrong here. But he exhibits another common trait - bloody-minded stubborness. Co-operation is not the name of the game, particularly with some-one who's not liked. "Gimme reasons. And if I can dream up a rebuttal, gimme more reasons until I don't have an excuse. Even then I might not do it unless sanctions are threatened." Not at all unusual. Of course all schools do have sanctions and the students know it, but the Occlumancy lessons fall into a grey area; they are not part of the established cirriculum and they are not held in a formal setting. Where are the normal school sanctions here? Would they cover it? Probably not. Mostly such non-co-operation is part of the attempt to establish a recognisably separate individual identity. It's the "Young Bucks" syndrome, which is also often the trigger for scuffles within the peer group. In fact, Hogwarts seems remarkably placid in this respect, with nearly all of it being confined to two small cliques - Malfoy's and Harry's. Better for the plot, I suppose. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 11:59:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:59:34 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <000a01c45349$242e7940$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101544 Trevor wrote: > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape > mistreats: his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right > to belittle or to call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in > front of the DADA class in POA). Del replies : Apparently, Snape *does* have this right. We never hear of anyone complaining officially, of any parent requesting that Snape be sacked. That, in effect, is approving of his methods and giving him the right to continue. When a teacher tried to act the same way with my sister's class when she was 11, my mom got her sacked. But you know what ? None of the other parents moved a finger. Basically, they were just waiting for their kid to finish the year, and they gave that teacher an unofficial approval to do the same with other classes in the future. So I consider that if nobody punishes Snape for what he's doing, they are pretty much granting him the right to go on with his methods. Trevor wrote: > I think his immature, petty, and constant bullying gets in the way > of his teaching. How can Snape move on to potions that are more > difficult when a significant portion of his class is struggling? > Neville has problems in his academics, but the OWL testing shows > that it is his fear of Snape rather than his abilities in potions > that holds him back from doing well in the class. Del replies : I believe Snape doesn't care about the pain his students have to go through. As long as he gets what he wants : quiet during the lessons and gratifying results at the OWLs, he's satisfied with that. Reminds me strongly of many teachers I had. Snape isn't nice I agree. But he's got no REASON to be nice if he doesn't feel like it. His methods, though not the most effective, work well enough. Why should he bother ? Especially since I personally believe that he doesn't like being a teacher anyway, and since we know that he'd rather teach something else than Potions. Trevor wrote : > We do not see into other classes but testimony from other students, > Snape treats other classes no better. Snape is a weak man corrupted > in his power over children. Del replies : I don't think so. I think he's just a man who doesn't see pain as a problem. He doesn't seem to care much about the nice emotions, and he doesn't seem to have any problem with the more negative ones. Maybe he's a bit sadistic, and also masochist, but since nobody in charge seems to care about that, I guess we can say that in the WW it's not a crime. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 12:39:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:39:11 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101545 Alla asked: > Now, if every Death Eater kid knows already that Snape is a traitor > and Snape does not have to keep appearances, would you still feel > that what Snape does to Neville and Harry is justifiable? Potioncat: Short answer: no. Longer answer: I already don't think everything he does is justifiable. It just seems that way in the heat of the posts. I think a great deal of what he does can be explained. I learned mid-SS that Snape wasn't going to be the bad guy and from that moment on, I started looking at him differently. What's up with this absolutely horrible good guy? And there have been episodes in the books where it appears he is simply out to harass Harry, that with a little digging, can be explained differently. I mean, when your twins have colic all night it's hard to be pleasant at work! (Sorry, couldn't resist.) I also don't think he's spying in the traditional sense, but I can't come up with a better explanation. Potioncat who chose not to read any other posts on this thread before answering. (And will probably wish I had) From SnapesRaven at web.de Wed Jun 16 13:29:45 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:29:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) References: Message-ID: <001c01c453a5$fd99f090$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 101546 Hello, here's a question this post evoked. David said, "I get the impression that, despite what Flitwick says about the importance of pronunciation, once you have grown up and become adept, you can do a lot of the basic spells almost without thinking." Now me: I wonder about the whole law thing regarding underage magic. (Hope it hasn't been discussed before in this context!) Can underage witches/wizards at their parents' home perform simple spells like the dish cleaning spell (the one we see in CoS), or summon things? With the strict trial Harry's repeated performance of underage magic in mind I wonder if it's even possible for a child that's growing up in the WW instead of with Muggles to avoid each and any kind of (wandless) magic. And as David pointed out, I also think that many spells simply function without great effort after sinking in and becoming routine. It strikes me as a very strange thing that Harry accidentally set the snake free at the zoo (PS) and didn't receive his first telling-off back then. I recollect that in CoS it was Dobby's magical activity *at the Dursley's house* that earned Harry the letter. But Ron, Fred and eorge didn't suffer any consequences after using their father's enchanted car, did they? How precise does the time limit of holidays/term influence this rule? Does every day matter? First day of vacations: magic forbidden; first day of term: magic allowed again? Or does the place matter; is magic during the term only allowed at Hogwarts/in Hogsmeade ...somewhere school related? Does it have to be intentional magic, performed with the conscious knowledge of the act as magical? Does a baby blowing up something in anger or pain therefore not count? As well as Harry's temper-caused outbursts *before* he was introduced to the WW, acknowledging his abilities? I'm really at a loss here. And what happens when a student is expelled from school because of underage magic? Which future does he face? Is there an inevitable ill-fate due to never having learned anything correctly? Will he/she be an outcast? - I can hardly imagine that. What good would that do to the wizarding community? One more question: Severus supposedly knew (according to Sirius) more dark spells/hexes when he first attended Hogwarts than most of the grown-up graduates. How come an eleven year-old is able to perform magic without ever practising? And can anyone earnestly imagine Draco growing up *without* magical training? He knew how to mount/fly a broom, after all, and the spells he used against Harry in the Duelling Club (CoS) were surely not on schedule (Serpensortia for example). Every opinion and pointings to posts on this topic (giving answers...!) are really appreciated... : ) SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 13:14:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:14:13 -0000 Subject: Snape thought Lucius was under Imperio ? was Re: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > wrote: > > Pippin: > > > > > It's interesting where this might lead Snape with Draco, > because it seems that Snape wanted to believe Lucius had only > worked for Voldemort because of the Imperius curse.<< > > > Amanda: > > *pricks ears up* > > Where did you get that? (is interested) Pippin: > That's one explanation, (I can't remember who deserves the > credit) for "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry > looked at him, Snape's eyes moved back to Fudge." in GoF. > Now that we know about legilimency, I read that as Snape being > surprised and looking into Harry's eyes to see if he was telling > the truth. If Snape was surprised to find out that Malfoy had > returned to the circle, then perhaps he thought that Malfoy really > had been under Imperius before. > Potioncat: That's very interesting. I hadn't picked up on that one before. Back to Draco. It's bothered me all along how any of the teachers will deal with some of their students becoming DE's or DE supporters. But it would seem particularly hard for Snape because of the role he's been playing. Unless he truely doesn't give a darn for any of them. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 13:19:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:19:22 -0000 Subject: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101548 Lee wrote: > I have to wonder if there are various grades of magicalness; we've got > squibs who can't do anything most people regard as magical; but are there > other levels? JKR hasn't tackled this really, but I have to wonder, as I > recall seeing some wizards do magic without need of a want, i.e. snapping > fingers and tying someone up, as I think it happened in SS/PS when Harry was > tied up by Quirrell. Potioncat: Well, there are certainly different levels of skills. We see Hermione learning spells well beyond her year level. Also, some will only reach "Ordinary" wizarding level and others will obtain Nastily Exhausting wizarding level. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 13:20:48 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:20:48 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) (long) In-Reply-To: <001c01c453a5$fd99f090$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "SnapesRaven" wrote: > Hello, here's a question this post evoked. > > David said, > "I get the impression that, despite what Flitwick says about the > importance of pronunciation, once you have grown up and become > adept, you can do a lot of the basic spells almost without thinking." > > Now me: > I wonder about the whole law thing regarding underage magic. (Hope it hasn't been discussed before in this context!) > Can underage witches/wizards at their parents' home perform simple spells like the dish cleaning spell (the one we see in CoS), or summon things? With the strict trial Harry's repeated performance of underage magic in mind I wonder if it's even possible for a child that's growing up in the WW instead of with Muggles to avoid each and any kind of (wandless) magic. And as David pointed out, I also think that many spells simply function without great effort after sinking in and becoming routine. > > It strikes me as a very strange thing that Harry accidentally set the snake free at the zoo (PS) and didn't receive his first telling- off back then. I recollect that in CoS it was Dobby's magical activity *at the Dursley's house* that earned Harry the letter. But Ron, Fred and eorge didn't suffer any consequences after using their father's enchanted car, did they? > How precise does the time limit of holidays/term influence this rule? Does every day matter? First day of vacations: magic forbidden; first day of term: magic allowed again? Or does the place matter; is magic during the term only allowed at Hogwarts/in Hogsmeade ...somewhere school related? > > Does it have to be intentional magic, performed with the conscious knowledge of the act as magical? Does a baby blowing up something in anger or pain therefore not count? As well as Harry's temper-caused outbursts *before* he was introduced to the WW, acknowledging his abilities? > I'm really at a loss here. > > And what happens when a student is expelled from school because of underage magic? Which future does he face? Is there an inevitable ill- fate due to never having learned anything correctly? Will he/she be an outcast? - I can hardly imagine that. What good would that do to the wizarding community? > > One more question: Severus supposedly knew (according to Sirius) more dark spells/hexes when he first attended Hogwarts than most of the grown-up graduates. How come an eleven year-old is able to perform magic without ever practising? And can anyone earnestly imagine Draco growing up *without* magical training? He knew how to mount/fly a broom, after all, and the spells he used against Harry in the Duelling Club (CoS) were surely not on schedule (Serpensortia for example). > > Every opinion and pointings to posts on this topic (giving answers...!) are really appreciated... > : ) > > > SnapesRaven Ok, this is they way that I took other children in the WW doing magic. When you have a family as large as the Weasley's for example I think it would be impossible to distinguish who is doing what. I guess that comes down to another question, how can they tell you are doing magic and at which times? When Harry recieved his warning they only mentioned one of the four spells that he cast that night. He did a Lumos spell to find his wand even before he did the Patronum one (which he did three times). Now we know from Harry's trial that they "thought" he was the only wizard within miles because they monitor that area closely. So it could be possible that they way they monitor magic is by where it is done not by whom. Having said that, if the ministry shows a use of magic on Privet Drive, they automatically assume that it is Harry. (Ex. When Dobby did magic, and Harry was blamed) So, if they see magic going on at the Weasley's there is no way to tell who is doing it. That is how I think Draco and Snape who both came from full wizard families would have the opportunity to practice magic without being detected. Jacqui --Who spends way too much time thinking of this stuff and not working :P From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 13:40:12 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:40:12 -0000 Subject: Snape thought Lucius was under Imperio ? was Re: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > That's one explanation, (I can't remember who deserves the > credit) for "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry > looked at him, Snape's eyes moved back to Fudge." in GoF. > Now that we know about legilimency, I read that as Snape being > surprised and looking into Harry's eyes to see if he was telling > the truth. If Snape was surprised to find out that Malfoy had > returned to the circle, then perhaps he thought that Malfoy really > had been under Imperius before. > That's the way I took it - that Snape truly didn't think that Malfoy would be at such a meeting. Which tends to change somewhat the supposed relationship between them. If, until that moment, Snape didn't realize that Malfoy was genuinely on the dark side, then whatever his reasons for maintaining a front, it couldn't have been in order to ingratiate himself with Malfoy. There would have been no purpose - a spy wants to infiltrate his enemies, not friends or neutrals. I thought of an alternate explanation for his startled reaction to Harry's words, though. He might have just been shocked to hear so abruptly of Lucius's cover being blown. He might have expected that someone as clever and prudent as Malfoy would have always protected his identity, so that he could always plausibly deny everything. Sure, nobody there expected Harry to come out of that graveyard scene alive, but Malfoy seems to me the sort who would ALWAYS take precautions, just in case. Wanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 16 13:55:15 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:55:15 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Now, if every Death Eater kid knows already that Snape is a traitor and Snape does not have to keep appearances, would you still feel that what Snape does to Neville and Harry is justifiable? Justifiable? No. I've never thought it was justifiable. I don't think I've ever argued that it was fair or appropriate, though I've tried to show why Snape might think it was. Understandable? Possibly. Forgivable? Yes. If whatever Snape is doing for the Order ends up saving Harry's and Neville's lives then he deserves to be forgiven. Since I think it's a given that will happen, unless Snape turns out to be ESE!, I've forgiven him already. And if Harry and Neville don't forgive him, then they'll be, well, Snape-ish. People aren't Chinese menus--you can't order a Snape special with extra cunning, resourcefulness and bloody-mindedness, hold the resentment and sarcasm, please. :) Let me ask a question in return: if you were convinced that Snape had made an honest effort to put his grudge against James aside and done all that he knew to teach Harry Occlumency, would you forgive him for stopping the lessons? Because on consideration, I think I can show that he did. Once the lessons begin there's not one reference to Harry's father, till Harry looks in the Pensieve. Snape puts his worst memory of James where it couldn't possibly color his thoughts. And what did Harry do? Went and fetched it out again. There's no way, now, that Snape can escape it, because now it's part of Harry's memories, too. That, plus re-read what happens in the lesson in chapter 26. Just after Harry makes his most successful effort at repelling Snape, just after he breaks into Snape's mind, Snape tries legilimens again--and Harry has a vision *he's never had before*!!!! That's no memory--that's Voldemort, in real time, manipulating Harry's mind right in the middle of Snapes !@#$% office. And Snape knows it, because Harry tells him he's never seen that before. No wonder Snape tells Harry he isn't working hard enough. And Snape is right--Harry made no effort at all to block the vision. Pippin From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 16 14:00:21 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:00:21 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101552 > It's not clear who wrtoe this: > Outing someone who has AIDS might be > necessary to protect others. > WHAT!? I really hope you don't mean this, because I don't think > anyone who has AIDS ~needs~ to be outed unless you know someone is >having sex with them and doesn't know they're infected. But I think >they were discussing a teacher being outed, and in that case, there >is no danger to anyone, even if the teacher did have AIDS. > Wanda wrote: > Uh, yes, I did mean this. My husband coaches a wrestling team - > people are scraping their knees, falling on their faces and ending > up with bloody noses all the time. Someone with AIDS has no place > in such a situation, and if it turned out that one of the > participants was HIV+ he'd have to go, willingly or unwillingly. > Sex may be the most high-profile (and emotionally compelling) way of spreading the disease, but it's not the only one. In Lupin's case, he's in even a worse situation than an AIDS sufferer, because when HE is dangerous, he also loses his rationality and can't stop > himself from injuring others. His ailment is more like temporary > insanity than AIDS. Mandy here: This is a very hot topic but to bring it back OT Lycanthropy, dispite having obvious parrellals with AIDS is a very different situation. Lycanthropy is an affliction that turns a man or woman in to a ferocious, terrifying un-merciless monster every month. (Every time I write about this I smile at the fact that my husband thinks I turn into a ferocious beast once a month too. Anyway.....) FBAWTFT cleary states that the preferred pray of the Werewolf is human! Lupin has no control over this, with the exception of the Wolfsbane Potion, which doesn't stop the transformation but helps him to retain some of his human mind. Lupin would kill his best friend, James, Sirius, Harry or anyone else who got near him as a human if he had half the chance. I wouldn't be surprised if Lupin hasn't killed in his Werewolf state in the past. Poor Lupin, as much as we all love him, cannot control his Werewolf state; it's his tragedy, his cross to bare. Personally, as much as I love Lupin, if I had kids I would never! allow them to be taught by a Werewolf, even if DD swore by him. Cheers Mandy From tnuttert at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:39:36 2004 From: tnuttert at hotmail.com (bobbi_ma) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:39:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <1d1.238ffb6c.2e01265f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101553 Cheryl H. wrote: > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be > surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle > and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two > books. We can drive cars at 17 so I'd assume it's the same with motorbikes, though I know that people younger than that can have scooters. But as scooters are less powerful I'd say 17 for motorbikes (but that's a guess, sorry!). Bobbi From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jun 16 14:02:36 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:02:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101554 Cheryl H. wrote: > > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. >>> Geoff: > A person can drive a small motocycle (up to 50cc I think) at the age of 16. For a larger machine, IIRC they have to pass their driving test and ahve to be 17. However, Sirius' machine is described as "huge" when Hagrid arrives on it at the beginning of Philosopher's Stone.>>> Ali: I've just checked on the DVLA website: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/rdmcycle.htm If Muggle Laws are applied, Harry would not be allowed to ride Sirius' bike: I'm presuming that "huge" means that it's over 125cc. Harry would only be able to take his motorcycle test when he's 17, and it would then be a further 2 years before he could ride bikes over 125cc ie he'd be at least 19, and out of Hogwarts - and the books! But, can you actually imagine the likes of Mr Weasley taking a normal Muggle driving test? The Wizarding World must have their own laws on the matter, so perhaps we will see Harry on Sirius' bike - or, he'll ride it illegally. Ali From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 13:16:28 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:16:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <001c01c453a5$fd99f090$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101555 >>>From: SnapesRaven at web.de [mailto:SnapesRaven at web.de] It strikes me as a very strange thing that Harry accidentally set the snake free at the zoo (PS) and didn't receive his first telling-off back then. I recollect that in CoS it was Dobby's magical activity *at the Dursley's house* that earned Harry the letter. But Ron, Fred and eorge didn't suffer any consequences after using their father's enchanted car, did they?<<< This is a very interesting topic. We've all read in the book when Hagrid asks Harry if he ever made something happen without meaning to. Is this even considered magic? Apparently, young wizards do this sometimes before they know they're wizards. But what about those from Wizard families like the Weasleys? Are they allowed to do any magic before they start going to Hogwarts? And like you said, is riding an enchanted or magical item (Ford Anglia, broomsticks) considered "doing magic" or are they just utilizing charmed items? I've just been reading GoF again and there is a baby playing with his father's wand and enlarging a slug. I don't know if that is the baby doing magic or just the wand having some leftover power or something. Seems to me it would be hard to keep your wizard child from picking up a thing or two from Mom and Dad by the time he's 10 or 11 and ready for school. And I've always been bothered about the warning Harry got after Dobby did magic at his house. The MoM knows so many other things, why didn't they know that Dobby did the magic, not Harry? Barbara bd-bear From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 14:13:48 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:13:48 -0000 Subject: POA movie clue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101556 I saw the prisoner of azkaban again yesterday and I was thinking about the clues JKR saw. One part that stuck out to me was when Harry and Hermione are being beaten up by the whomping willow and Harry's glasses fall off. For a few seconds we see things through his eyes, blurred. What if sometime during the next books Voldemort is trying to see something through Harry's eyes the way that Harry saw through his in OOP, but Harry takes his glasses off which somehow ruins Voldie's plans? I'm not sure how much that would affect things, but it was interesting to think about, what do you guys think? Janelle From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 14:15:31 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:15:31 -0000 Subject: Sinistra (Re: Question re "little hint" in Book 2 of what is yet to come) In-Reply-To: <03f501c45338$0aa165c0$3ff86944@CarolynsComp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101557 Carolyn asked: (re: Sinistra) > For some reason, your question brings this to my mind: where does she sit at the head table, in relation to Snape? Ginger: Hem, hem. Sorry, wrong book. I am quoting from GoF, US hardcover, p.175. "Tiny little Professor Flitwick, the Charms teacher, was sitting on a large pile of cushions beside Professor Sprout, the Herbology teacher, whose hat was askew over her flyaway gray hair. She was talking to Professor Sinistra of the Astronomy department. On Professor Sinistra's other side was the sallow-faced, hook-nosed, greasy-haired Potions master, Snape- Harry's least favorite person at Hogwarts. ............ On Snape's other side was an empty seat, which Harry guessed was Professor McGonagall's. Next to it, and in the very center to the table sat Professor Dumbledore." Later, after the sorting, when Moody arrives, Dumbledore has him sit in the empty seat at his right-hand side. McGonagall was seated at this time, but it isn't clear if Harry had been correct in his assumption that McGonagall was to be seated in the empty chair between Snape and Dumbledore. (As an aside, I never noticed that all the other teachers were referred to by JKR as Professor with Snape being the exception. Hmmm.) Assuming Harry was correct, the order would be Flitwick, Sprout, Sinistra, Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore (centre), DADA teacher. This leaves Vector, Muggle Studies, Runes, (in some order) and Hagrid (who sits on the end in SS after leading in the first years). Trelawny and Binns don't seem to join the feasts. Can't blame Binns. I have a feeling that this is not necessarily an assigned order, as one would think that Harry would know by his fourth year where McG sits. On the other hand, the next year Umbridge is sitting next to Dumbledore. Snape and Quirrel were talking after the first feast, but that would be easily accomplished my Dumbledore getting up and moving. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go back and check every dining experience, so this will have to do for now. I hope it answered your question, Carolyn. I have a bit of a soft spot for you as Carolyn is the name of one of my very good friends. Ginger, waving big happy hellos to Jenny from Ravenclaw, Darrin, and Irene. It's been too long, folks! Sorry, Darrin, no good band names here. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 14:16:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:16:39 -0000 Subject: Snape stalling Harry Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101558 "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > > However, Snape just *loves* to get Harry in trouble... or at least try to. He > was the one waiting for Ron and Harry in CoS when they crashed the car into > the Whomping Willow. He was very eager to see them both punished. Potioncat: Quite a few episodes between Snape and Harry can be explained differently than they seem. I would have to say IMHO, it could have been like this: Snape does not know why the boys took the car. He most likely thinks they were showing off. (There are a whole line of parenting books that pretty much take the stand that kids are evil and always have unpure motives)(I don't have canon to support that Snape's read any of them.) But I suspect he was on the grounds as much to "greet" them as to make sure they arrived safely. Yeah, he chews them out and scares them with a hint of expulsion. But they did break rules, you know. Jenny: > The moment when I really hated Snape was when he would not let Harry find > Dumbledore in GoF when Harry found Crouch on the grounds of Hogwarts. I > still cannot for the life of me understand why Snape not only delayed Harry, > but seemed to enjoy it. True, Harry was not about to be punished, but Snape > was just plain mean here. Potioncat: I've brought this up in a recent post as well (probably because I'd read it here) I think Snape was stalling Harry for DD. Snape came out of DD's office and called Harry back to the door. He's the ususal snarky self for a while and DD comes down to see what's going on. Reading the pages before and after, this is what I think. Snape was reporting to DD (possibly about the mark getting darker) DD was using his pensieve to review the facts. They hear Harry. DD sends Snape down to stall him. DD finishes gathering his thoughts and joins them. DD rushes off, but Snape does not. That's the part that surprised me. He usually gets into the thick of things. I think Snape was going to prepare for the situation he and DD were dreading Jenny: > Even in SS, when Snape first comes face to face with Harry in Potions class, > he seizes the opportunity to make a fool of Harry. It's mean and uncalled for. Potioncat: Yeah it is. The only explanation I can give is that we are told that students are whispering about Harry and staring at him. I think there is something about his being famous. Snape has no doubt heard these and is determined not to let Harry get big-headed like James. Whether this is motivated by concern or jealously, I cannot say. I do think he wants Harry to know about Draught of Living Death. Potioncat who will credit Carol with most of these ideas. From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Wed Jun 16 13:35:38 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:35:38 -0300 (ART) Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <001c01c453a5$fd99f090$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: <20040616133538.45985.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101559 SnapesRaven: >> It strikes me as a very strange thing that Harry accidentally set the snake free at the zoo (PS) and didn't receive his first telling-off back then. << I guess that, by then, Harry wasn't even 'marked' as a wizard. I mean, he was 10 years old, and it was an outburst of magical power that every magical child has now and then. >> And what happens when a student is expelled from school because of underage magic? Which future does he face? Is there an inevitable ill-fate due to never having learned anything correctly? Will he/she be an outcast? - I can hardly imagine that. What good would that do to the wizarding community? << I do believe s/he will be regarded as an outcast. See Hagrid: the only reason that he has a decent job is because of Dumbledore. >> One more question: Severus supposedly knew (according to Sirius) more dark spells/hexes when he first attended Hogwarts than most of the grown-up graduates. How come an eleven year-old is able to perform magic without ever practising? << Here I wonder if Snape knew that much (Black statements towards Snape are *always* biased). But then, Severus could have acknowledged them, not necessarily meaning by that he knew *how* to perform them (remember: up til 11yo, magical children haven't got a wand of their own). >> And can anyone earnestly imagine Draco growing up *without* magical training? He knew how to mount/fly a broom, after all, and the spells he used against Harry in the Duelling Club (CoS) were surely not on schedule (Serpensortia for example). << In Draco's case, you can always count on Malfoy Sr. to save his young a*. :) But, at the same time, I can't quite picture Lucius being the patient teaching type of parent. And as for "Serpensotia", well, Draco isn't *that* stupid, he could have read/studied from some book he got in his home or even in Hogwarts Library itself. ===== ~Rebeka From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 16 14:29:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:29:53 -0000 Subject: Snape thought Lucius was under Imperio ? was Re: Racism and Snape's grudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I thought of an alternate explanation for his startled reaction to > Harry's words, though. He might have just been shocked to hear so abruptly of Lucius's cover being blown. He might have expected that someone as clever and prudent as Malfoy would have always protected his identity, so that he could always plausibly deny everything. > Sure, nobody there expected Harry to come out of that graveyard scene alive, but Malfoy seems to me the sort who would ALWAYS take precautions, just in case. > It wasn't Malfoy's choice to out himself. It was Voldemort's. "Lucius, my slippery friend." GoF 33. Of the others whom Voldemort named: Crabbe, Goyle, Avery and Macnair, we know that Avery also wormed his way out of Azkaban by claiming to have been under Imperius GoF 27. I think what Voldemort was doing here was cementing their allegiance by making sure they couldn't claim "innocence and bewitchment" if they were caught again. But apropos of your question, whether Snape believed Lucius was genuinely a Death Eater or not, he was certainly a person of influence among the bloodist families from which Voldemort draws his support, and that alone would be reason enough for Snape to ingratiate himself. Draco has so far been unsuccessful in using his father to intimidate the teachers, but that could change if Lucius escapes from Azkaban. Though I've always thought it would be a strong move for Voldemort to take over Azkaban and make it his HQ, so maybe Lucius won't have to escape. Pippin From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 14:32:47 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:32:47 -0000 Subject: Squibs and Kwikspell was Squibs and Hagrid was Re: Petunia not the latebloomer In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040615181922.021773b8@www.timself.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101561 Tana wrote: > If squibs were totally NON MAGICAL what use would a Kwikspell > Course BE? Why would Filch spend what is probably the wizard world > version of outrageous infomercial prices on something if he KNEW he > could NEVER no matter what he did ever use magic at all? Eustace_Scrubb: I think this whole thread raises all kinds of interesting questions about the WW (and the genetics issue could really be a major one what with the importance of the "mudblood" epithet in the series). I'll just give my $.02 on one aspect. I think you're right on to compare Kwikspell to the many remedies/self-help books etc. sold via infomercials. In the RW, these pitches are aimed at people who are desperate for a solution to their problem(s), whether it's hair loss, weight, computer illiteracy, whatever. And many of the products _don't_ (maybe can't) solve the customers' ills. The vendors don't care; they just want the money. My guess is that Kwikspell is exactly analogous--it appeals to "incompetent" wizards as well as squibs, people who feel their lives are empty because they can't do magic or can't do it as well as their parents/siblings/friends etc. It probably does most of them no good whatsoever, but that doesn't stop people from shelling out their hard-earned galleons in the hope that it will. Filch is a bitter man who is tormented by hundreds of bratty wizards and witches all day--I would think Hogwarts would be a squib's existential hell. And from what we've seen of the WW's government, I doubt there's a consumer protection agency at the MoM that's any more effective than the fairly feeble ones in the real world. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 16 14:30:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:30:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40D0E617.26628.179027@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101562 On 16 Jun 2004 at 2:39, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Here is the question I want to ask Snape apologists. :o) I'm not sure if I'm a Snape apologist or not, but I do defend some things he does, so I'll answer (even though it's after midnight and I need sleep...) > Suppose, we will learn later in the books that Snape never went back > to spying since he started teaching at Hogwarts. Personally I always > thought that whatever mission Dumbledore gave him at the end of GoF > was not spying or at least not spying in its conventional sence. It > would be too simple. > > Suppose it is a given that whatever Snape is doing for the Order is > of totally different nature, that he does not have to go back to > Voldie, EVER. > > Now, if every Death Eater kid knows already that Snape is a traitor > and Snape does not have to keep appearances, would you still feel > that what Snape does to Neville and Harry is justifiable? As justifiable as it ever was. Snapes job as a teacher is to teach his pupils as effectively as he can. I honestly believe Snape does this in most cases - Neville is the possible exception, but I'm inclined to think Snapes methods are effective with Neville as long as Snape isn't the one examining Neville (ie, I think Neville does learn what Snape teaches, he's just not able to show Snape). While it may certainly be argued (and I'm not saying I agree, just that it can be argued) that in general other methods might be better than Snapes, the real question IMHO is could *Snape* teach as effectively using another method? I find it hard to believe that Snape would be as effective a teacher if he had to force himself to be kind and patient, etc. I think Snape is probably teaching in the best way he knows how. And that is the measure that counts. There are many different methods of teaching - some better than others - and in some cases, a teacher may be so much better at using an otherwise less than optimal method, that that for that teacher, it's the best way. Is Snape as good a teacher as McGonnagal? No. But is Snape-the- Cruel more effective than Snape-the-Kind would be? I think that is very possible. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 14:36:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:36:25 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101563 Pippin wrote: > > People aren't Chinese menus--you can't order a Snape special > with extra cunning, resourcefulness and bloody-mindedness, > hold the resentment and sarcasm, please. :) Potioncat: Nothing to add, I just thought that was too good to snip! Pippin: > Let me ask a question in return: if you were convinced that > Snape had made an honest effort to put his grudge against > James aside and done all that he knew to teach Harry > Occlumency, would you forgive him for stopping the lessons? > > Because on consideration, I think I can show that he did. Once > the lessons begin there's not one reference to Harry's father, till > Harry looks in the Pensieve. Snape puts his worst memory of > James where it couldn't possibly color his thoughts. And what > did Harry do? Went and fetched it out again. There's no way, > now, that Snape can escape it, because now it's part of Harry's > memories, too. > Potioncat: I never thought of this as the reason for taking that memory out of his head. And it sounds wonderful! Agan:.."where it couldn't possibly color his thoughts." So Snape's reasons for putting these thoughts out of his head, was to clear his head for task ahed of him, not so much to keep them from Harry? So many of our first impressions in this book are wrong, we could have been wrong with this too. I can almost see the converstion: Snape: "Headmaster, how can I teach Potter Occlumency when I have so much bad history with his father! DD: "Well, Severus, just put those thoughts out of your head." Potioncat wondering just how big the Pensieve is? From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Wed Jun 16 13:39:48 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:39:48 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616133948.44024.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101564 Jacqui: > When Harry recieved his warning they only mentioned > one of the four spells that he cast that night. He > did a Lumos spell to find his wand even before he did > the Patronum one (which he did three times). Now we > know from Harry's trial that they "thought" he was the > only wizard within miles because they monitor that area > closely. So it could be possible that they way they > monitor magic is by where it is done not by whom. Actually, reading your answer, something came to my mind. Maybe underage magic is allowed to the extent that Muggles can explain it. I mean, if Muggles see a wizard casting "Lumos", they can assume that guy was switching a flashlight on. A Patronus Charm cannot be easily explained by Muggles. Does anyone see my point here? ===== ~Rebeka From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 16 13:50:18 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:50:18 -0000 Subject: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: <20040616030639.69528.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101565 K G wrote: > I have some questions to throw out to the group - kind of a fishing > trip - so to speak.... [snip] > We have had a lot lately about Ron=DD. I tend to lean toward > Percy=DD. The name is in there. Percy will do something now that > he is with the MoM that he feels that he needs to go back and fix. > Any ideas? Just got to jump in here in response to all these theories about Dumbledore being someone from the present day sent back in time ... Since the examiner in OOP (forget the name) recalls testing him for his NEWTs, particularly Transfiguration IIRC, it would have to be someone young enough to enter Hogwarts and work their way through, or surely *someone* would notice his sudden appearance! A personal thing, perhaps, but I am getting rather tired of people trying to spatchcock their own favourite SF-nal device (time travel in this instance) into the Harry Potter books no matter whether it makes any sense at all. If people put as much effort into figuring out how things could be done *without* invoking excessive manipulation of time, which we have been warned is *massively* dangerous and to be avoided at all costs, I'm sure we could have some sparkling new theories to consider. For the record, I have a mini-theory about Dumbledore's partial omniscience having something to do with his Chocolate Frog Cards; plus I rather wonder whether he could actually see the time-turned H&H *through* the wall of Hagrid's hut? Would anyone have a problem with the idea that Dumbledore might have a kind of internal "Marauders' Map" and be hyper-aware of where people were in Hogwarts? Just as a quick example, how *did* he know that Harry was visiting the "Mirror of Erised" in the first place. HTH HAND -- Phil From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 16 14:27:56 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:27:56 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Express rolling stock (was Fishing for ideas) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101566 K G wrote: > > How many people would a train like the Hogwarts Express be able > > to carry? Do all students have to arrive by train or can > > they arrive other ways? This will help to put an end to the > > 250/1000 student debate. "Geoff Bannister" wrote: [learned discourse on various types of rolling stock snipped] > So, to be quite honest, we can only speculate as to how many folk > might be on the HE which leaves your question unresolved. The bugger factor (sorry, technical term there, as all musicians/techies will recognise) is that the Hogwarts Express is a *magical* train. Just as a for instance, on several occasions people pop forward and talk to the driver. How do they reach the cab? I'm sure there's a tender in the way, so there must be some mechanism to allow traffic *past* it. Recall how Mr Weasley was able to make the Ford Anglia capacious enough to fit at least 8 people plus luggage? Not a problem to make the HE expand to take as many passengers as necessary. As a side issue, how many times is it that the Trio seem to plonk themselves down in the last available compartment? Just how likely is that? Maybe there's a "Room of Requirements" mechanism which makes more accommodation as and when needed. -- Phil From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 16 14:45:19 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:45:19 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <000a01c45349$242e7940$6400a8c0@Desktop> References: Message-ID: <40D0E99F.26494.255A14@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101567 On 15 Jun 2004 at 19:25, Trevor wrote: > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape mistreats: > his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right to belittle or to > call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in front of the DADA class in > POA). A teacher has no right to do this? That's an opinion - not a fact. At my school, it was quite clearly understood that a teacher *did* have a right to belittle students and to call them names - but *only* in very very specific circumstances. *Very* few teachers took this approach, but the idea that they didn't have the *right* to, would have seemed ludicrous to us. Within the context of our school, it was accepted that a teacher had the right to do just about anything that wouldn't cause us permanent damage, if it was likely to increase our academic performance. I agree that Snape shouldn't do it to Neville - because I think in Neville's cases it doesn't have any real chance of improving things for him. But in my case, on the very few occasions (I can think of two) where a teacher took this approach, it *worked*. It made me work harder. It really did. > I think his immature, petty, and constant bullying gets in the > way of > his teaching. How can Snape move on to potions that are more difficult when > a significant portion of his class is struggling? Actually, there's quite of bit of theory in education that the optimum time to move onto harder worker is when a significant portion of a class is struggling. Students need to have the basics of a subject down before you move on to the next one - but that doesn't mean they need to be comfortable with it, or to no longer be struggling. In many ways, constantly moving onwards so that students are always struggling at the limits of what they understand is a very effective method of teaching. Again, it's one I experienced - and one used in quite a few schools here. Incidentally they tend to be the schools whose students do the best academically. It's a very fine line, and very difficult to do well - but provided students have the basic knowledge they need to move on, you don't have to wait until they find what they are currently doing easy or straightforward. Really, in many ways, you want to be constantly probing the zone of proximal development - you want to keep children learning nearly always at just a little above where they are comfortable learning. Please note - I'm not saying this is a universal strategy. It is *very* hard to do it well, so often a teacher is far better off not using this method. And it's a method that focuses primarily on academic achievement as the major goal of education - if a teacher has other goals as well as the purely academic, there can be very good reason not to use this method. But for a competent teacher, capable of accurately judging the level, who is primarily concerned with academic learning - it's valid. Remember - there's no such things as the one right method of teaching. Different kids have different needs, different methods have different strengths and weaknesses. I thrived under Snape like teachers - I understand that many people would not - but I certainly did. And so did others who learned with me. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 16 14:45:54 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:45:54 -0000 Subject: What does Lucius (and Voldemort) really know about Spy!Snape? In-Reply-To: <40CF6D08.9070007@rcn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101568 > Stefanie wrote: > One little problem here -- > ". . . Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather > than Hogwarts, you know, He knows the headmaster, you see...Well, > you know his opinion of Dumbledore - the man's such a Mudblood- > lover - and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff." (Draco, > GoF 11) Granted, if you want to disregard this, it *could* be passed off as > Draco merely boasting...but Lucius has been shown to have a long arm when it comes to influence. If Karkaroff and Lucius are still > friendly (and obviously Karkaroff knows about Snape's > spyhood...being there and all) one would have to assume that this > either never came up in their conversations or it *has* come up and consequently, Lucius knows about Snape. (We haven't exactly been given precedence of Karkaroff keeping mum about things) I'm inclined to believe that, at the least, Lucius may know, or Snape's spyhood is one of those buzzing things that "no one is supposed to know about." Mandy here: I think your talking about a few different things here. Firstly your assuming all the DE talk freely amongst themselves about who's doing what, where and when. That is a big mistake. That's not to say they won't try to find out as much about each other as possible, but any one of the DE would be stupid to talk too freely to another for fear of getting set up. Karkaroff is a coward and absolutely terrified about LV coming back, he is desperate to find out anything he can from anyone. I, for one, doubt Lucius Malfoy would have anything to do with Karkaroff from the moment he noticed the Dark Mark was coming back if Lucius knows anything about Karkarkoff treachery. Karkaroff may have been useful as headmaster of Durmstrang, but he is a liability for anything to do with LV. Snape is a different story. You make the comment `and obviously Karkaroff knows about Snape's spyhood...being there and all'. I say not necessarily. Karkaroff could believe that Snape is spying on DD for LV, but not the other way around. Karkaroff has proved himself a traitor after the first war; it would be disastrous for Snape to have Karkaroff know he (Snape) is spying on LV for DD. Karkaroff goes to Snape for help when he feels the Dark Mark burning as he believes Snape is still in the fold. I doubt, knowing what a coward Karkaroff is, he could ever imagine anyone turning spy on LV and Snape would want to keep it that way. The fewer who know the better. > Stefanie wrote: > Now we also know from numerous citations that Snape and Lucius are > on good relations. If Lucius knows that Snape is a spy, why on EARTH would he still be friendly with Snape. Mandy again: Information. Lucius would want to be on the recieving end of any information Snape could have about DD and LV. Information is power. There are many on this site who believe that Lucius is Snape's point man for LV. That for the last 15 years, before LV return, Snape has been building a relationship with Lucius Malfoy waiting for LV return which both DD and Snape knew would happen one day. When it did happen, in GoF, DD asked Snape 'was he ready', Snape replied 'yes.' Ready for what? His return to LV with a watertight excuse and plenty of information about DD to sweeten LV. As Lucius was quickly back in LV inner circle it seems likely that Snape would use him to lead him back into the fold. Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 14:53:34 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:53:34 -0000 Subject: Trelawney is a squib, here's why... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arielock2001" wrote: > Arianna: > Just because she has a wand doesn't mean she can perform > magic with it. She may have inherited it, she may have bought it > at a second hand wand store, or it may be a stick she found in a > hedge. The story is told from Harry's pov. He may assume that > she is a witch and that that is her wand. He has assumed many > things in the past that have been incorrect. > Besides, as Justine notes, even if she did make the lights go > out, she could have learned it from Kwikspell. With her flair for > drama, if she is a witch, why is this all we have seen? > If this group (HPfGU) hasn't found one direct instance of > Trelawney actually performing magic, there is probably a reason. Jen: You make a good case, Arianna! If Trelawney is a squib, which I tend to think is the case, why? I'm just wondering if this has a purpose for the future plot, or is it a literary device to tell the reader Harry's POV can be deceiving? > Arianna: > Now the defense might ask: "How can Trelawney have known > private info about some students? For example, she makes an > unsolicited reference to Neville's grandmother during their first > class in PoA. How could she have known that she was a > significant person in his life? Even if she was aware of the fate > of his parents, wouldn't she have to have been involved in the > wizarding world to have heard of the tragedy?" Jen: Umbridge knows of Sybill's family lineage, that the Seer abilities of the Trelawney family 'skipped' three generations. That makes me believe Trelawney grew up in the WW and is familiar with people in the WW, esp. those who have passed through Hogwarts. And re: Neville's parents and his Gran, all she'd have to do there is read the Daily Prophet after the torture of the Longbottoms to know what happened, or overhear students talking about it, like you said below. Arianna: > No. The Longbottom's torture took place well after Trelawney > met Dumbledore, and squibs are involved in the wizarding world > if they choose to be. My bet, though, is that she used the same > technique employed by real world "psychics." She found a way > to secretly listen to the students' conversations. In this case, > when HRH finally find the divination classroom for the first time > (PoA), they notice all their classmates sitting outside her office > *talking*. Trelawney was just listening to their conversations > and lowered the ladder when she had gathered enough info to > make an impressive first class. She probably also heard Neville > complaining about how clumsy he is. Jen: This makes me wonder again whether being a Seer is enough to be considered a witch a wizard. Divination is a Muggle practice, too. (Although I believe RW psychics/intuitives, good ones, do more than listen in on conversations ). Sprout, Snape and the others who work in areas that don't require a wand, are still working with magical plants, potions, etc. Divination, or at least Trelawney's form of it, looks purely Muggle. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 14:53:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:53:23 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101570 Wanda wrote: > > > I have the impression that Snape has ALWAYS been a martinet. Nobody > messes with him, and all the students are quiet and fearful of > getting on his bad side - and this was probably the case during the > years before Harry got to Hogwarts, when play-acting wouldn't have > been as necessary for Snape. For example, with all their pranks and > goofing off, does anyone remember a moment when Fred and George > tried to pull a joke in Snape's class? I think even they knew > better than to tangle with him. We see his unfairness to Harry, and > because we know more backstory than the characters in the books, we > can create theories about why he does what he does. But it's > interesting that nobody in the books does this. The other students > don't act shocked or perplexed that Snape is picking on Harry > Potter, they just keep their heads down and are grateful that it > isn't happening to them. Maybe this is because Snape has always > done this sort of thing, and he's known to be a teacher who can > target students he doesn't like - he's acting entirely in character. > This year it's Potter, maybe the year before it was Jenkins, and the > year before that it was Judkins, etc. Its always bound to be > SOMEONE. > Potioncat: I think you are right. There are some few sentences in the the books that indicate that. This doesn't justify what Snape does, but it may mean that he isn't just picking on Harry, it just seems that way to Harry. Also in the first potion class, IIRC, (and in Harry's opinion) Snape doesn't seem to like "any" of the students except for Draco. He gives Harry, Hermione and Neville a hard time. But he doesn't seem to target Ron or Seamus. Ron, however has heard about him and says, "He can get nasty." Heard, no doubt from the Fred and George. We're also told that Bill doesn't like him, but it's hard to tell if adult Bill doesn't like adult Snape or if Bill had Snape for a teacher and doesn't like him for that reason. Potioncat From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:05:15 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:05:15 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) (long) In-Reply-To: <20040616133948.44024.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes wrote: > Jacqui: > > When Harry recieved his warning they only mentioned > > one of the four spells that he cast that night. He > > did a Lumos spell to find his wand even before he did > > the Patronum one (which he did three times). Now we > > know from Harry's trial that they "thought" he was the > > only wizard within miles because they monitor that area > > closely. So it could be possible that they way they > > monitor magic is by where it is done not by whom. > > > Actually, reading your answer, something came to my > mind. Maybe underage magic is allowed to the extent > that Muggles can explain it. I mean, if Muggles see a > wizard casting "Lumos", they can assume that guy was > switching a flashlight on. A Patronus Charm cannot be > easily explained by Muggles. Does anyone see my point here? > > ===== > > ~Rebeka Oh wow, what a wild explination. That is quite interesting. I see exactly where you are going with this, although there is no proof as of yet. But that would explain quite a bit :P From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:09:16 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101572 The ongoing discussion of squibs and late bloomers makes me wonder about the role of Argus Filch in the series. If this has all been hashed out before, I apologize. We don't know Filch's story. What's he doing at Hogwarts, anyway? It appears he's a squib or a very minimally-abled wizard. In another thread I wrote that "Filch is a bitter man who is tormented by hundreds of bratty wizards and witches all day--I would think Hogwarts would be a squib's existential hell." Yet he's been there for years--we don't know exactly how long. In Greek mythology, Argus was a hundred-eyed herdsman or servant of Hera. When Zeus seduced Io, he changed her into a cow to in an unsuccessful attempt to deceive Hera. Hera asked Zeus for the cow and set Argus to guard bovine-Io. Zeus then had Hermes kill Argus to free Io. In Ovid's version, Hermes used a magic wand to seal Argus's eyes, then killed him. According to Aeschylus, Argus was "earth-born." (see www.pantheon.org for more detail) Now, in the Potterverse, Filch's omnipresent watchfulness is analogous to the mythic Argus' hundred eyes. Is the "earth-born" status of mythic Argus equivalent to the squib status of Filch? Is Filch at Hogwarts to guard something or someone specific (maybe someone who's been transfigured into something else), or is he just generally watchful? The mythic Argus ultimately fails to successfully guard Io, losing his life in the process. Is there a connection to the frequent futility of Filch's efforts to catch Harry/Ron/Fred/George/ students in general doing things prohibited by school rules? Or again, will he ultimately fatally fail at some more specific and important task? Any chance Mrs. Norris might not be what she appears to be? It's clear JKR is using the name Argus to tell us something about Filch, the question is how much. Any thoughts? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:08:22 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:08:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Cheryl H. wrote: > > > > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be > surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and > this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. >>> > > Geoff: > > > A person can drive a small motocycle (up to 50cc I think) at the > age of 16. For a larger machine, IIRC they have to pass their > driving test and ahve to be 17. > > However, Sirius' machine is described as "huge" when Hagrid arrives > on it at the beginning of Philosopher's Stone.>>> > > Ali: > > I've just checked on the DVLA website: > http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/rdmcycle.htm > > If Muggle Laws are applied, Harry would not be allowed to ride > Sirius' bike: I'm presuming that "huge" means that it's over 125cc. > Harry would only be able to take his motorcycle test when he's 17, > and it would then be a further 2 years before he could ride bikes > over 125cc ie he'd be at least 19, and out of Hogwarts - and the > books! But, can you actually imagine the likes of Mr Weasley taking > a normal Muggle driving test? The Wizarding World must have their > own laws on the matter, so perhaps we will see Harry on Sirius' > bike - or, he'll ride it illegally. > > Ali Ron drove the Ford Anglia illegally, so I really don't think an age requirement will stop Harry. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 15:27:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:27:02 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101574 Trevor wrote: > > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape > > mistreats: his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no > > right to belittle or to call names (calling Hermione a know-it- > > all in front of the DADA class in POA). Del replies : > Apparently, Snape *does* have this right. We never hear of anyone > complaining officially, of any parent requesting that Snape be > sacked. That, in effect, is approving of his methods and giving him > the right to continue. When a teacher tried to act the same way > with my sister's class when she was 11, my mom got her sacked. But > you know what ? None of the other parents moved a finger. > Basically, they were just waiting for their kid to finish the year, > and they gave that teacher an unofficial approval to do the same > with other classes in the future. > So I consider that if nobody punishes Snape for what he's doing, > they are pretty much granting him the right to go on with his > methods. SSSusan: "Right" might be a stronger word than I'd use, but it's tacit approval, yes. This is part of what I was trying to get at yesterday when I said I'm struggling to approach Snape *in the context of Hogwarts.* I do wonder what would happen if Snape were to have treated beloved Draco as he had treated Harry, Neville & Hermione. Would Draco run to daddy and demand something be done about it? Would Lucius be the parent to finally force the issue w/ DD? At this point, that's the ONLY scenario I can imagine in which Snape would be reprimanded for his teaching methods, and, well, I really CAN'T see it happening. (Hmmmm. Or would Lucius tell Draco to buck up...or just go have a talk w/ Severus himself? Interesting to contemplate....) Trevor wrote : > > We do not see into other classes but testimony from other > > students, Snape treats other classes no better. Snape is a weak > > man corrupted in his power over children. Del replies : > I don't think so. I think he's just a man who doesn't see pain as a > problem. SSSusan: I definitely don't see Snape as a weak man. Flawed, yes, but NOT weak. I think Del's right--he just doesn't see pain as a problem. Siriusly Snapey Susan From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 14:59:41 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:59:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40D0E99F.26494.255A14@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101575 >On 15 Jun 2004 at 19:25, Trevor wrote: > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape mistreats: > his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right to belittle or to > call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in front of the DADA class in > POA). >>>From: Shaun Hately [mailto:drednort at alphalink.com.au] A teacher has no right to do this? That's an opinion - not a fact. At my school, it was quite clearly understood that a teacher *did* have a right to belittle students and to call them names - but *only* in very very specific circumstances. . . . But in my case, on the very few occasions (I can think of two) where a teacher took this approach, it *worked*. It made me work harder. It really did.<<< Perhaps this is a cultural thing. I'm in the US and speaking only for my experience, if any teacher treated me like Snape treats some of his students, I would definitely NOT have felt motivated to learn or do well. In fact, in my senior year of high school, I had a math teacher who always spoke in a patronizing tone to the class as a whole, calling us animals, making ridiculous jokes. I thought he was awful and that we, although students and much younger, still deserved respect. In contrast, whenever I had a teacher who made me feel special or worthwhile or just gave me a little extra time, I not only wanted to do well for me but also because I didn't want to let that teacher down. Of course, that might just be more about my own personal dynamics with authority figures, but I still think it's more of a cultural thing. I don't think many US teachers would get away with insulting their students, or openly favoring others (and I wish I could think of a RW equivalent to taking points of one's "house" but I can't.) JMO Barbara bd-bear From themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 14:54:44 2004 From: themaidenpersephone at hotmail.com (Mac) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:54:44 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <11a.32eea240.2deb482f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101576 Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > "So then you say 'What about a sundial?' She says: 'That makes > perfect sense because when the castle was built it was on an > ancient Celtic site.' Bap bap bap!" I don't think this odd at all, most christianized sites were ancient sites of something. When christianity forced its conversion amoungst the ancient peoples, they took over the popular sites and claimed them as christian sites. This is very comman in Europe. Persephone From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 15:37:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:37:17 -0000 Subject: POA movie clue--hint to book 6 or 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101577 Janelle: > I saw the prisoner of azkaban again yesterday and I was thinking > about the clues JKR saw. > > One part that stuck out to me was when Harry and Hermione are being > beaten up by the whomping willow and Harry's glasses fall off. For > a few seconds we see things through his eyes, blurred. What if > sometime during the next books Voldemort is trying to see something > through Harry's eyes the way that Harry saw through his in OOP, but > Harry takes his glasses off which somehow ruins Voldie's plans? > I'm not sure how much that would affect things, but it was > interesting to think about, what do you guys think? SSSusan: Same scene struck me the first time I saw it, too, but for rather an opposite reason. Harry was *vulnerable,* helpless, unable to come to Hermione's & Ron's aid while he was floundering around looking for his glasses. JKR has already said how important Harry's eyes/glasses/vision [not sure *precisely* which she was referring to] are [think of the time she was upset one book jacket illustration was drawn showing Harry w/o his glasses]. So rather than foiling Voldy by removing his glasses, I fear the opposite--that Harry will become helpless [kinda like Fearless Fly-- remember him, anybody?] if he gets separated from his glasses again. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 15:43:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:43:17 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: <40D0E617.26628.179027@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101578 Shaun H. wrote: > Is Snape as good a teacher as McGonnagal? No. But is Snape-the- > Cruel more effective than Snape-the-Kind would be? I think that is > very possible. SSSusan: What about Snape-the-Neutral?? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) It *would* be a possibility, though, you know, assuming a spectrum rather than an either-or. Could our Snapey manage neutrality or is that beyond him (beneath him?)? More likely, I think, he wouldn't be interested in it...and it certainly wouldn't promote his image w/ the DEs. Siriusly Snapey Susan From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed Jun 16 15:45:31 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:45:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101579 Barbara (bd-bear ) Wrote: Perhaps this is a cultural thing. I'm in the US and speaking only for my experience, if any teacher treated me like Snape treats some of his students, I would definitely NOT have felt motivated to learn or do well. In fact, in my senior year of high school, I had a math teacher who always spoke in a patronizing tone to the class as a whole, calling us animals, making ridiculous jokes. I thought he was awful and that we, although students and much younger, still deserved respect. In contrast, whenever I had a teacher who made me feel special or worthwhile or just gave me a little extra time, I not only wanted to do well for me but also because I didn't want to let that teacher down. Of course, that might just be more about my own personal dynamics with authority figures, but I still think it's more of a cultural thing. I don't think many US teachers would get away with insulting their students, or openly favoring others (and I wish I could think of a RW equivalent to taking points of one's "house" but I can't.) Lady Macbeth replied: Cultural, and a patter of perspective. I suffered through exactly what Hermione's going through in school - being "an insufferable know-it-all" who gets picked on and ridiculed by others for being such, who idolized teachers and other people who had seemingly endless wisdom, and continually wanting to learn more. Hell, I even had the scraggly brown hair that wasn't as pretty or as polished as other girls' hair was, and I had (and still have) big front teeth. While I was in elementary school and middle school, I really respected teachers that doled out praise and stickers and smiley faces, and hated ones who "dared" mark anything wrong on my papers or who said I was anything less than perfect. In my Junior and Senior year of high school, however, I had an English teacher who didn't play the "4.0 student" game. My English papers ALWAYS came back with at least a few red marks on them, no matter how many times I'd revised them. Something ALWAYS wasn't good enough. I got an irritated look instead of a smile when I tried sucking up for better grades. He purposely ignored my hand in the air when he wanted an answer and I was the only one in class trying to answer it. The few times that I screwed off in class (passing notes, talking, etc) I caught hell WAY worse than the idiots whose life goal seemed to be seeing how many pencils they could stick in the ceiling. Sound like any teachers we know? During my Senior year, however, I did a lot of maturing. I started looking at the world from an adult perspective instead of a child or teenager's perspective for the first time. And by the end of the year I had a respect for my English teacher that I've NEVER had for any of the teachers who showered me with praise. Now that I've been in the real world and am in college for the second time, working on a second degree, I only wish MORE teachers had been like him. All that praise and happy feelings did nothing but set me up for a huge fall when I got to college and found out that the world doesn't work that way. That's why, as cruel as Snape is, and as much as I can feel what Hermione, Harry and the others are feeling, I also can understand better why Snape's behaving the way that he is. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:47:43 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON to the rescue, was Re: Stopper in Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616154743.1573.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Jacqui: > I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was a certain incident (which I can't remember...sorry) then she all of a sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can anyone else remember what that incident was? > > > > > Sherry: > Wasn't that in OOTP, when Umbridge is observing the divination class? Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. > > > Carolyn: > I thought it was after getting past the dragon in GoF, but I don't have my books right now so I can't look it up. Not much help, hunh? > > No, no, no. Trelawney's modified "long-life" prediction for Harry was one of the many positive but indirect teacher responses after Harry's interview about Voldemort's return was published in the Quibbler. > I found it!! US version of OotP. Ch 26 Seen and Unforseen. Pgs 582-583. This statement was made while Trelawney was on probation but was right after the Quibbler interview. "...Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divinations and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children." IfoundoneIfoundone (moonmyyst dances around the kitchen table with a bottle of butterbeer sloshing) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 15:48:21 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:48:21 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) (long) In-Reply-To: <20040616133948.44024.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101581 Jacqui: > > When Harry recieved his warning they only mentioned > > one of the four spells that he cast that night. He > > did a Lumos spell to find his wand even before he did > > the Patronum one (which he did three times). Now we > > know from Harry's trial that they "thought" he was the > > only wizard within miles because they monitor that area > > closely. So it could be possible that they way they > > monitor magic is by where it is done not by whom. > Rebeka: > Actually, reading your answer, something came to my > mind. Maybe underage magic is allowed to the extent > that Muggles can explain it. I mean, if Muggles see a > wizard casting "Lumos", they can assume that guy was > switching a flashlight on. A Patronus Charm cannot be > easily explained by Muggles. Does anyone see my point here? > SSSusan: YES, I can, Rebeka. It was a point I was going to make. I think whoever said that picking out Ron or George or Ginny from amongst all the (magical) Weasleys would be next to impossible is right. And I also think that Draco--or ANY witch/wizard in an all-magical family-- would likely get away with all kinds of magic, as long as no damage was done, no one was hurt, **and** no MUGGLES witnessed it. In the cases where Harry's gotten in trouble with the MoM, at least 2 out of the 3 of those criteria have usually been met, and *definitely* the Muggle criteria! Siriusly Snapey Susan From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:52:18 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:52:18 -0000 Subject: LOON to the rescue, was Re: Stopper in Death? In-Reply-To: <20040616154743.1573.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > wrote: > > Jacqui: > > I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was a certain incident (which I can't remember...sorry) then she all of a sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can anyone else remember what that incident was? > > > > > > > > Sherry: > > Wasn't that in OOTP, when Umbridge is observing the divination class? Trelawney does a total turn around in her attitude to Harry. I'm sorry I can't quote the exact place ... it's harder to find it in the braille or audio versions! But I think that's where it happens. > > > > > Carolyn: > > I thought it was after getting past the dragon in GoF, but I don't have my books right now so I can't look it up. Not much help, hunh? > > > > No, no, no. Trelawney's modified "long-life" prediction for Harry was one of the many positive but indirect teacher responses after Harry's interview about Voldemort's return was published in the Quibbler. > > > > > > > > I found it!! US version of OotP. Ch 26 Seen and Unforseen. Pgs 582-583. This statement was made while Trelawney was on probation but was right after the Quibbler interview. > > "...Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divinations and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children." > > IfoundoneIfoundone (moonmyyst dances around the kitchen table with a bottle of butterbeer sloshing) > There you go! That is exactley the part that I was refering to :P Kudos to you dear. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 15:57:23 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Cheryl H. wrote: > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. >>> > This raises another question. What else will HP inherit from SB? What kind of wills and inheritance laws are there? The last time we saw the motorcycle, Hagrid had it. SB said that he would no longer need it. I do not see where Hagrid had a chance to return it before the next day when SB and PP had their show down. Where did Hagrid put it? Who has it? The interview that I read - sorry I do not remember word for word (I think the link was at the Leak Cauldron but cannot remember for sure) the question was asked of JKR, "Will the motorcycle show up again?" "I would say there is a good chance" "Where is it?" "That is the question, now, isn't it?" And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts and GP can talk, why can't HP's pictures of his parents? Do they have to be a certain size before they can? moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 16:17:32 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:17:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Cheryl H. wrote: > > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. >>> > > > > > > > This raises another question. What else will HP inherit from SB? What kind of wills and inheritance laws are there? > > The last time we saw the motorcycle, Hagrid had it. SB said that he would no longer need it. I do not see where Hagrid had a chance to return it before the next day when SB and PP had their show down. Where did Hagrid put it? Who has it? The interview that I read - sorry I do not remember word for word (I think the link was at the Leak Cauldron but cannot remember for sure) the question was asked of JKR, "Will the motorcycle show up again?" "I would say there is a good chance" "Where is it?" "That is the question, now, isn't it?" > > And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts and GP can talk, why can't HP's pictures of his parents? Do they have to be a certain size before they can? > > moonmyyst > You know I wondered the same thing. What if anything will Harry inherit? I was wondering on wether or not he would get the house and things along that line. Now the wrench here is, Bellatrix is alive as well as Narcissa (sp?) since they are relatives, do they get the house instead? If they do, what then becomes of the Order's Head Quarters??? Since DD is the secret keeper, if they inherit it, will they be able to find it? Jacqui From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 16:31:03 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:31:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle and wizard pics In-Reply-To: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Cheryl H. wrote: > > At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. >>> I don't think English Laws would matter since Vernon would never take Harry to the DMV or whatever it is over there. I was thinking a few days ago that if laws were equal in the UK as US, Harry would be forced to suffer Dudders getting his permit and learning to drive over the summer. But since laws are different... > And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts and GP can talk, why can't HP's pictures of his parents? Do they have to be a certain size before they can? > > moonmyyst > > I understood that painted portraits with the right spells applied took on a life of their own and that simple photographs with spells applied were different. Can you imagine a shoebox full of photos yelling at you from under the bed? Or five different photographs yelling "don't look at him, look at me!" from a page in the photo album? I think its best to keep them quiet and just have the occasional spellwork done to animate a portait. Whats the latin for animate? Maybe a swirl and a jab of the wand with an Imago Animatus! And I dont believe any painting will be "alive" just by being painted. I.E. Dobby's picture of Harry without the proper charm, is just a painting. I'm sure it would have spoken up at Christmas... or more likely, flattened his hair over his scar as everyone was staring at him. Jason From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 16:47:20 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:47:20 -0000 Subject: wizard pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101586 > I understood that painted portraits with the right spells applied > took on a life of their own and that simple photographs with spells > applied were different. Can you imagine a shoebox full of photos > yelling at you from under the bed? Or five different photographs > yelling "don't look at him, look at me!" from a page in the photo > album? I think its best to keep them quiet and just have the > occasional spellwork done to animate a portait. Whats the latin for > animate? Maybe a swirl and a jab of the wand with an Imago Animatus! > > > And I dont believe any painting will be "alive" just by being > painted. I.E. Dobby's picture of Harry without the proper charm, is > just a painting. I'm sure it would have spoken up at Christmas... or > more likely, flattened his hair over his scar as everyone was > staring at him. > > Jason Ok I can take that explination, but what about this: In order for the portrait to be "charmed" with an animation spell, does the person the picture is of need to be alive? If not, could Harry have a picture of his parents painted and still have the same effect? I am leaning towards the first. Jacqui From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 16:57:04 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:57:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort in the open? (Was: Snape thinks Lucius was under Imperio) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Draco has so far been unsuccessful in using his father to > intimidate the teachers, but that could change if Lucius escapes > from Azkaban. Though I've always thought it would be a strong > move for Voldemort to take over Azkaban and make it his HQ, so > maybe Lucius won't have to escape. > > That would actually be a better scenario, because in OotP we've already seen ONE breakout from Azkaban. To do it all over again would be a bit repetitious, whereas capturing it (maybe with an army of Dementors) would be fresh and interesting. It would also change Voldemort from a skulking menace, perpetually in hiding, and bring him out in the open. Perhaps we'd get more of a sense of threat if he wasn't so confined and limited. My biggest problem with Voldemort is not believing in how evil he is, it's that he seems so small, with his tiny band of supporters. He needs a credible power base. I thought for a while that Fudge would turn out to be on his side, and that the Ministry was going to prove to be honeycombed with Voldemort "moles", but that doesn't seem to be the way the story is going. Just having everyone refuse to talk about him or believe that there is a problem doesn't make for compelling drama, and now that that situation has been resolved (with the turnaround of Fudge and the editorials in the Daily Prophet at the end of OotP) I want to see a genuine threat emerge. It's time for Voldemort's Army, to counter Dumbledore's Army. Wanda From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 16:57:55 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:57:55 -0000 Subject: wizard pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > > I understood that painted portraits with the right spells applied > > took on a life of their own and that simple photographs with spells > > applied were different. Can you imagine a shoebox full of photos > > yelling at you from under the bed? Or five different photographs > > yelling "don't look at him, look at me!" from a page in the photo > > album? I think its best to keep them quiet and just have the > > occasional spellwork done to animate a portait. Whats the latin for > > animate? Maybe a swirl and a jab of the wand with an Imago Animatus! > > > > > > And I dont believe any painting will be "alive" just by being > > painted. I.E. Dobby's picture of Harry without the proper charm, is > > just a painting. I'm sure it would have spoken up at Christmas... > or > > more likely, flattened his hair over his scar as everyone was > > staring at him. > > > > Jason > > Ok I can take that explination, but what about this: > In order for the portrait to be "charmed" with an animation spell, > does the person the picture is of need to be alive? If not, could > Harry have a picture of his parents painted and still have the same > effect? > I am leaning towards the first. > Jacqui Maybe the paint they're painted with has to be mixed with a potion containing bits of the person or animals to be anipainted. Sort of like polyjuice. Rather than an oil base or water base, its a saliva or blood based potion paint? Jason From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 17:05:44 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:05:44 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to do doing something... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101589 OK, in Book 3 you're absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry's father. Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do. - The Connection Interview Transcript Oct 1999 vmonte: In OOTP, Snape's Worst Memory, is where Lily is mentioned in book 5. I've included all of Lily's part, and added some other sentences that I thought were interesting or stood out. Why do you think Harry will end up having to do? Any clues below? What does everyone think? vivian OOTP, page 640, U.S. version "Harry looked around carefully. Snape had to be here somewhere .This was his memory ." Page 641 "Excitement exploded in the pit of his stomach: It was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on his forehead, but the had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows. James's hair stuck up at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's, and Harry could tell that when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other's heights." Page 642 "Harry's stomach gave another pleasurable squirm?was Remus Lupin. He looked rather pale and peaky (was the full moon approaching?) and was absorbed in the exam " Page 643 "Snape remained close by, still buried in his examination questions; but this was Snape's memory, and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any farther. To his intense relief, however, when James and his three friends strode off down the lawn toward the lake, Snape followed, still poring over the paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going." Page 646 ? Snape is attacked "You?wait," he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest loathing. "You?wait ." "Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?" Page 647 ? Lily's entrance "Leave him ALONE!" James and Sirius looked around. James's free hand jumped to his hair again. It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders and startingly green almond shaped eyes?Harry's eyes. Harry's mother "All right, Evans? Said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature. "Leave him alone," Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. "What's he done to you?" "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean " Many of the surrounding watchers laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and neither did Lily. "You think you're funny," she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone." "I will if you go out with me, Evans," said James quickly. "Go on Go out with me, and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again." Behind him, the Impediment Jinx was wearing off. Snape was beginning to inch toward his fallen wand, spitting out soapsuds as he crawled. "I wouldn't go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid," said Lily. "Bad luck, Prongs," said Sirius briskly, turning back to Snape. "OY!" But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about; a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants. Page 648 Many people in the small crowd watching cheered. Sirius, James, and Wormtail roared with laughter. Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!" "Certainly," said James and he jerked his wand upward. Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes, he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, "Locomotor mortis!" and Snape keeled over again at once, rigid as a board. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily. "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you," said James earnestly. "Take the curse off him, then!" James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse. "There you go," he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus?" "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." "Apologize to Evans!" James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him. "I don't want you to make him apologize," Lily shouted, rounding on James. "You're as bad as he is " "What?" yelped James. "I'd NEVER call you a?you-know-what!" "Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can?I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK." She turned on her heel and hurried away. "Evans!" James shouted after her, "Hey, EVANS!" But she didn't look back. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 17:18:46 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:18:46 -0000 Subject: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101590 Phil wrote: A personal thing, perhaps, but I am getting rather tired of people trying to spatchcock their own favourite SF-nal device (time travel in this instance) into the Harry Potter books no matter whether it makes any sense at all. vmonte responds: No offense but many of the posts on this site are not based on canon evidence. AND JKR inserted the possibility of time-travel into the series, not me, or anyone else. Also, there are a lot of discussions going on this site. I'm sure you can find one that is to your liking. vmonte :) From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 17:35:08 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:35:08 -0000 Subject: (FILK) If She Does Too Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101591 If She Does Too (CoS, chapter 2) (A Filk by Gail B. to the tune of _From Me To You_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle09.html Dudley Dursley (singing along to a song on the television): Da-da-da-da-da dum-dum-dum Da-da-da-da-da dum-dum-dum Vernon Dursley: I'm going to pick up Aunt Marge But let's get things straight ere I do Now first of all, you'll keep a civil tongue Harry: I will, if she does too Vernon Dursley: She knows nothing about your powers And she would freak out if she knew No funny stuff, so you behave yourself Harry: I will, if she does too Vernon Dursley: I told Marge your school's a center That's for criminal boys So as soon as Aunt Marge enters Do not make any noise (raises his fist) Oooo! We know magic is abnormal The topic is strictly taboo Listen to me, don't do anything wrong Harry: I will, if she does too If she...does too But what I need is just your signature Then this thing I will do I've a form to go to Hogsmeade That I want you to sign If you do, then I will concede Vernon Dursley (with a note of panic in his voice): You better tow the line, Ooooo! Harry: That's a lot I need to recall There's a lot that I may slip through So sign my form, and then I'll play along Vernon Dursley: All right, only if you! Harry: Will do, will do, will do. Dudley Dursley: Da-da-da-da-da dum-dum-dum -Gail B...who noticed in the closing credits of the movie that the PoA soundtrack was recorded and produced at Abby Road Studios. Rock on! From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 17:44:41 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:44:41 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to do doing something... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: In OOTP, Snape's Worst Memory, is where Lily is mentioned in > book 5. I've included all of Lily's part, and added some other > sentences that I thought were interesting or stood out. > > Why do you think Harry will end up having to do? Any clues below? > What does everyone think? > > vivian You left out Dumbledore's part where he mentions that Lily&James along with the Longbottoms managed to defy Voldemort three times at the height of his power, which is something Harry hasn't even done. Pretty significant seeing how Voldemort told Lily to step aside from Harry in their final encounter instead of killing her first and that he emphasized it in his encounter with Harry in PS. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 16 18:00:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:00:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death? (Was Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101593 | From: Jacqui | I remember Trelawny predicted his death from day one until there was | a certain incident (which I cant remember...sorry) then she all of a | sudden changed her prediction that Harry would live a long life. Can | anyone else remember what that incident was? [Lee]: OOTP, I think it had to do with Harry's interview being seen in the Quibbler. Many of the teachers did stuff like Flitwick giving Harry a box of Sugar Mice on the QT, Sprout giving points to Gryffindor because Harry handed her a watering can, Trelawney telling Harry that he would live a long life. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:03:46 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:03:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort in the open? (Was: Snape thinks Lucius was under Imperio) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > That would actually be a better scenario, because in OotP we've > already seen ONE breakout from Azkaban. To do it all over again > would be a bit repetitious, whereas capturing it (maybe with an army > of Dementors) would be fresh and interesting. It would also change > Voldemort from a skulking menace, perpetually in hiding, and bring > him out in the open. Perhaps we'd get more of a sense of threat if > he wasn't so confined and limited. GEO: How do we know that he hasn't already gotten a secure headquarters. So far we've heard nothing of his previous hq in the last war. Perhaps he's gone back to using it. > My biggest problem with > Voldemort is not believing in how evil he is, it's that he seems so > small, with his tiny band of supporters. He needs a credible power > base. GEO: He already has his remaining DEs and an army of the remaining giants and dementors so he seems to be a pretty potent force. If Rowling remains consistent then I'm guessing that we'll be seeing those who will be allying out of fear soon in Book VI. > Just having everyone refuse to talk about him or > believe that there is a problem doesn't make for compelling drama, > and now that that situation has been resolved (with the turnaround > of Fudge and the editorials in the Daily Prophet at the end of OotP) > I want to see a genuine threat emerge. GEO: I do believe Rowling was trying to play on the WW2 parallels with Fudge in the position of Chamberlain as the one who'd refuse to acknowledge the threat of Hitler and Germany. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 18:05:31 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:05:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101595 In a message dated 06/16/2004 12:49:43 PM Central Daylight Time, greatelderone at yahoo.com writes: > You left out Dumbledore's part where he mentions that Lily&James > along with the Longbottoms managed to defy Voldemort three times at > the height of his power, which is something Harry hasn't even done. > Pretty significant seeing how Voldemort told Lily to step aside from > Harry in their final encounter instead of killing her first and that > he emphasized it in his encounter with Harry in PS. > Actually it was the other way around. US Version Chapter 27 pg 842 "He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him." said Dumbledore. "And notice this Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing), but the half blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far -- something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents ever achieved" Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:11:31 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:11:31 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > I do wonder what would happen if Snape were to have treated beloved > Draco as he had treated Harry, Neville & Hermione. Would Draco run > to daddy and demand something be done about it? Would Lucius be the > parent to finally force the issue w/ DD? At this point, that's the > ONLY scenario I can imagine in which Snape would be reprimanded for > his teaching methods, and, well, I really CAN'T see it happening. > > (Hmmmm. Or would Lucius tell Draco to buck up...or just go have a > talk w/ Severus himself? Interesting to contemplate....) You don't need to contemplate at all. In CoS (Don't have the book so can't give chapter and verse) we find out, from Lucius, that Hermione got higher grades than Draco (and everyone else). He takes that at face value and as meaning a muggleborn performed better in class (in which her teacher "hates" her) than his son (in the same class but in this case the teacher "likes" Draco.). Does Lucius blame Snape? Hermione has outscored Draco in EVERY class so Snape's 'like' or 'dislike' is rather a wash in this case. (Does anyone here think any othe HW teachers are 'favoring' Slytherins? No, I thought not.) You'd think it would be the perfect opportunity for Lucius to start a Dumbledore bashing session harping on how he 'encourages mudbloods' by requiring teachers to be 'easy' on them. Oh, as far as the claims that Snape *likes* Draco--I have yet to see any *real* canon proof of Snape *liking* Draco. I think, for him, Draco is means a to an end, like everything else. Mel From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:20:16 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:20:16 -0000 Subject: wizard pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101597 Jacqui: > > In order for the portrait to be "charmed" with an animation spell, > > does the person the picture is of need to be alive? If not, could > > Harry have a picture of his parents painted and still have the > > same effect? > > I am leaning towards the first. > > Jacqui Then Jason: > Maybe the paint they're painted with has to be mixed with a potion > containing bits of the person or animals to be anipainted. Sort of > like polyjuice. Rather than an oil base or water base, its a saliva > or blood based potion paint? > > Jason Now Eustace: I don't think I have any canon to back this up, but my sense is that the painting does have to be done in the presence of the living subject. I don't think it can be done in the same way as polyjuice transformations, which just deal with physical appearance (at least in COS, where Harry and Ron look and sound like Crabbe and Goyle but certainly don't assume their knowledge/memories/minds (thank goodness!). But the painting subjects seem to have all of their mental faculties transferred to the portrait, not just physical appearance. I don't think that could be gotten from a piece of hair or blood, but probably must be done with a rather powerful spell. I imagine at least two steps: 1) specially-prepared paints and/or canvas; and 2) spells, possibly one to animate the image and another to copy/transfer the mind. But maybe one spell does both...or the animation is accomplished strictly with the specially-prepared materials. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:26:06 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:26:06 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 06/16/2004 12:49:43 PM Central Daylight Time, > greatelderone at y... writes: > > > You left out Dumbledore's part where he mentions that Lily&James > > along with the Longbottoms managed to defy Voldemort three times at > > the height of his power, which is something Harry hasn't even done. > > Pretty significant seeing how Voldemort told Lily to step aside from > > Harry in their final encounter instead of killing her first and that > > he emphasized it in his encounter with Harry in PS. > > > > Actually it was the other way around. US Version Chapter 27 pg 842 > No it wasn't. He says so in PS/SS when he's on Quirrel head that Lily didn't have to die. The fact that he was willing to spare one of his enemies just raises a few questions imo. "How touching " it hissed. "I always value bravery .Yes, boy, your parents were brave .I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight .but your mother needn't have died she was trying to protect you .Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 16 18:29:24 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:29:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question References: <1087330773.28808.47708.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c453cf$d9d58000$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 101599 Phil wrote: >Maybe Sirius knew where Peter lived, and that was where he found him. He certainly did know where Peter lived, because it was his finding Peter absent from home that alerted him to the fact that something was seriously wrong in the first place. >No books here at work, so does anyone know if the location of the >PP-blowup was ever actually stated? >From memory, I think it was just in a Muggle street. It was certainly a public place, not at Peter's house. >More sinister in my opinion was the excessively quick arrival of >Fudge, who IIRC was the first on the scene. Interesting one, this. We are led to believe that the Sirius/Peter confrontation took place fairly soon after Godric's Hollow, maybe even the following day. I would theorise that that day was one which the various anti-Voldemort forces spent rounding up as many of his followers as they could. We don't know how many wizards were available to the Ministry and the Order (and anyone else we haven't been told about) so it could well be that Fudge and his team had been really busy all day. _Someone_, after all, would have had to arrive at Godric's Hollow and mindwipe all those Muggles who were attracted by the explosion at a house they'd never really noticed before. No small task, depending on the numbers. Likewise, the Pettigrew event was in front of a streetful, who the Ministry team interrogated as well as mindwiping them. Once again, that's a considerable amount of time, even using magical means. Though (and this thought suddenly jumps into my mind) I wonder if it was _Sirius_ who called them in - he located Peter and called Fudge to come in and help arrest him, and that's why he was laughing when the Ministry took him away instead? No, hang on, it's Sirius we're talking about, the man who never told anyone anything... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Wed Jun 16 18:31:51 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:31:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wizard pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040616142752.032e34c0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101600 >"Jacqui" wrote: > > > I understood that painted portraits with the right spells >applied > > > took on a life of their own and that simple photographs with >spells > > > applied were different. snipped > > > > > Jason > > > > Ok I can take that explination, but what about this: > > In order for the portrait to be "charmed" with an animation spell, > > does the person the picture is of need to be alive? If not, could > > Harry have a picture of his parents painted and still have the >same > > effect? > > I am leaning towards the first. > > Jacqui > >Now Phil replies: I like the idea of polyjuice paint. You need a hair of the subject, and the portrait is magically painted. This could mean that Harry only needs a hair from James Lily or Sirius to create talking portraits of them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:32:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:32:04 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to do doing something... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101601 greatelderone wrote: You left out Dumbledore's part where he mentions that Lily&James along with the Longbottoms managed to defy Voldemort three times at the height of his power, which is something Harry hasn't even done. Pretty significant seeing how Voldemort told Lily to step aside from Harry in their final encounter instead of killing her first and that he emphasized it in his encounter with Harry in PS. vmonte responds: Page 841, OOTP, U.S. version: "It meant," said Dumbledore, "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago. This boy would be born to parents who had already defied Voldemort three times." Page 842 "Sibyll's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times. One of course was you. The other was Neville Longbottom." "He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far--something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved." vmonte From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:41:21 2004 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:41:21 -0000 Subject: Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: cubfanbudwoman [mailto:susiequsie23 at s...] > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Yes, PLEASE, will people weigh in on this one?? It's never made > sense to me either. Was it just that Sirius was laughing in an > ironic sort of, "I can't BELIEVE this is happening to me?" kind of > way? It was always described as sort of maniacal, though.... > > Barbara: That does seem odd, but I always thought it was an indication of him having > some sort of breakdown. Peg: I agree with Barbara--Sirius was having an emotional breakdown at that point. His best friends are dead, he had passed the role of Secret Keeper to the spy in the Order so he's effectively responsible for their deaths, and then Peter gets away from him, effectively leaving him holding the bag for James' and Lily's deaths, plus the blown up street and half-a-dozen other killings. That had to be too much for any one person at any one time. Peg--not a Sirius fan, but sympathetic to him all the same. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 18:43:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:43:04 -0000 Subject: JKR interview again - about Lily - book 5 and 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101604 greatelderone wrote: No it wasn't. He says so in PS/SS when he's on Quirrel head that Lily didn't have to die. The fact that he was willing to spare one of his enemies just raises a few questions imo. "How touching " it hissed. "I always value bravery .Yes, boy, your parents were brave .I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight .but your mother needn't have died she was trying to protect you .Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." vmonte responds: The point of my post was that JKR mentions that we find out important information about Lily in book 5 and 7, and that information is what leads Harry to do something. You are quoting from book 1. vivian :) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 18:47:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:47:17 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101605 SSSusan: > > I do wonder what would happen if Snape were to have treated > > beloved Draco as he had treated Harry, Neville & Hermione. Would > > Draco run to daddy and demand something be done about it? Would > > Lucius be the parent to finally force the issue w/ DD? At this > > point, that's the ONLY scenario I can imagine in which Snape > > would be reprimanded for his teaching methods, and, well, I > > really CAN'T see it happening. > > > > (Hmmmm. Or would Lucius tell Draco to buck up...or just go have > > a talk w/ Severus himself? Interesting to contemplate....) Mel: > You don't need to contemplate at all. > In CoS (Don't have the book so can't give chapter and verse) we find > out, from Lucius, that Hermione got higher grades than Draco (and > everyone else). He takes that at face value and as meaning a > muggleborn performed better in class (in which her teacher "hates" > her) than his son (in the same class but in this case the > teacher "likes" Draco.). Does Lucius blame Snape? Hermione has > outscored Draco in EVERY class so Snape's 'like' or 'dislike' is > rather a wash in this case. (Does anyone here think any othe HW > teachers are 'favoring' Slytherins? No, I thought not.) You'd think > it would be the perfect opportunity for Lucius to start a Dumbledore > bashing session harping on how he 'encourages mudbloods' by > requiring teachers to be 'easy' on them. > > Oh, as far as the claims that Snape *likes* Draco--I have yet to see > any *real* canon proof of Snape *liking* Draco. I think, for him, > Draco is means a to an end, like everything else. > > > Mel SSSusan again: Ummm...maybe I wasn't especially clear in what I was saying. My post wasn't about Snape or any other teacher favoring the Slyths or liking Draco. (Perhaps I should have left out the sarcastic "beloved" before Draco, which was actually *my* descriptor of him, not Snape's?) All I was wondering about was what people thought MIGHT happen were Snape ever to treat Draco the way he's treated Harry. If Snape sneered and took points and broke potion vials and all that. Would Draco run to daddy and complain? (The way he complains about Hagrid and expects daddy to step in, for instance.) Hermione is an excellent student. I believe Snape by & large does give her the grades she deserves. I object to things like his nastiness in humiliating her in front of the class and his cruel comment about her teeth, but I've never suggested that he doesn't give Hermione the grade she deserves. And none of that was the point of my post. Per JKR, Snape is a sadistic teacher. Does anybody really think he's not *more* sadistic with some students than with others? Draco may be an outstanding student and get the grades he deserves; I've absolutely no reason to doubt that he doesn't. I was just "what iffing"--contemplating the highly unlikely situation in which Snape might actually turn on Draco- -and asking people what they thought Draco would do. Siriusly Snapey Susan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 16 18:52:05 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:52:05 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question In-Reply-To: <000c01c453cf$d9d58000$264c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Phil wrote: > >More sinister in my opinion was the excessively quick arrival of > >Fudge, who IIRC was the first on the scene. > > Ffred: > Though (and this thought suddenly jumps into my mind) I wonder if it was > _Sirius_ who called them in - he located Peter and called Fudge to come in > and help arrest him, and that's why he was laughing when the Ministry took > him away instead? > > No, hang on, it's Sirius we're talking about, the man who never told anyone > anything... > If you're really devious..... Peter tipped off Fudge *and* made sure Sirius knew where he was. The 'confrontation' was staged on ground of Peter's choosing; he already knew what he was going to do, how he was going to escape, leaving Sirius carrying the can. Whether Fudge was actually in on it or a dupe is problematical. IMO given his track record, this is yet something else he wouldn't be comfortable answering questions about. Kneasy From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 16 18:50:51 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:50:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) References: <001c01c453a5$fd99f090$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: <002c01c453d2$d97f6960$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101607 > I wonder about the whole law thing regarding underage magic. (Hope it hasn't been discussed before in this context!) > Can underage witches/wizards at their parents' home perform simple spells like the dish cleaning spell (the one we see in CoS), or summon things? With the strict trial Harry's repeated performance of underage magic in mind I wonder if it's even possible for a child that's growing up in the WW instead of with Muggles to avoid each and any kind of (wandless) magic. And as David pointed out, I also think that many spells simply function without great effort after sinking in and becoming routine. > SnapesRaven Here's what I think about underage magic. First of all, I do not think the rule comes into effect until a child begins attending school. In other words, things like Harry's spontaneous outbursts listed in PS, the baby bow blowing up a slug in GOF, even Snape reading up on spells before coming to school, wouldn't have been detected. Otherwise, the ministry would probably just have to round them all off at birth and then release them directly into the care of the school, wouldn't they? As for the question of magic that we see done during holidays in, for example, the Weasely household, my theory is that the MOM will only enforce the no-magic rule if they know it's been performed without adult wizard supervision. So, when Draco and the Weaselies come home, the MOM wouldn't monitor them, assuming their parents would keep them out of trouble. I think the restrictions are for people like Harry and Hermione, who the ministry knows are out there without a grown up magical person to keep an eye on them. Alina. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jun 16 18:56:03 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:56:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Motorcycle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101608 I think the motorcycle was turned into the flying car and that is why Arthur was under investigation at the MoM -Gina At what age can teenagers drive in England? I would not be surprised to discover that Harry inherits Sirius's motorcycle and this is how the motorcycle plays a part in the final two books. Cheryl H. "You must choose, but choose wisely." The Ancient Knight of the Templar, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. "You will have to make a choice." Morpheus and the Oracle to Neo, The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded. "It is our choices that show who we are far more than our abilities." Albus Dumbledore. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 16:01:53 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:01:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101609 >>>From: Lady Macbeth [mailto:LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com] My English papers ALWAYS came back with at least a few red marks on them, no matter how many times I'd revised them. Something ALWAYS wasn't good enough. I got an irritated look instead of a smile when I tried sucking up for better grades. He purposely ignored my hand in the air when he wanted an answer and I was the only one in class trying to answer it. The few times that I screwed off in class (passing notes, talking, etc) I caught hell WAY worse than the idiots whose life goal seemed to be seeing how many pencils they could stick in the ceiling. That's why, as cruel as Snape is, and as much as I can feel what Hermione, Harry and the others are feeling, I also can understand better why Snape's behaving the way that he is.<<< I can certainly see where your coming from when you describe your teacher. I had a teacher who demanded more of me in 12th grade as well (also English) and I think thanks to her I was more prepared for college composition classes than I otherwise would have been. As for Snape, don't you think there is a line he is going over when he singles out someone not doing anything wrong, or makes personal insulting comments to them? Whatever your teacher did, it doesn't sound like he made things into a personal attack on you, but that it was related more to having you meet a higher standard academically. Please correct me if I'm getting it wrong. I think Snape COULD do this, and maybe some of the students do respond to that, but I think if he gets results from his students, it's more because they are afraid of him than because he is inspiring them to do their best and go the extra mile. Barbara bd-bear From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jun 16 16:03:24 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:03:24 -0400 Subject: respecting Snape References: <1087248434.5570.38951.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006f01c453bb$742fdca0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101610 >As I argued earlier - Snape is in a position of > authority and whether or not he personally has earned Harry's respect, Harry > is a student and should be respectful towards all his teachers. > > K Harry respects teachers like McGonagall who are strict but fair. He trusts her. Snape has been nothing but mean to him and you cannot respect someone for that. I agree he seems to have done well in his exams, especially if Snape leaves him alone to concentrate. I am really going to hate it if the end of the books come and Snape says "The past 7 years were all an act, Harry, I had to act that way for my undercover missions for Dumbledore. I really do like you." That just won't work for me. I admit that after re-reading SS and beginning on CoS again that there is something about Snape we are missing. He was all set to be the bad guy in SS but ended up being a good guy. That surprised me. I'm looking forward to more Snape surprises. But liking him or respecting him - I don't think so. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 16:20:29 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:20:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why DID Sirius laugh? (was: Peter Pettigrew, questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c453bd$d7877680$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101611 I believe Sirius knew exactly what happened when Peter blew up the street and knew that he was through, that Peter had gotten away with it and that he would go to prison for it. And the irony hit him. Trevor From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 16:28:39 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:28:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Silent/Wandless Magic? (was Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c453be$fb7fb9c0$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101612 I believe I read somewhere that magic is possible silent and wandless- obviously look what Harry did to Aunt Marge, to the snake in the zoo, finding himself on roofs- but it less focused. A really good wizard/witch is degraded by being silent/wandless but sometimes that doesn't seem to impinge the outcome. In the DD vs VM scenes neither seem to use audible spells. Perhaps well trained wizards and witches merely have to think the incantation. Trevor From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jun 16 16:21:56 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:21:56 -0400 Subject: Snape & Harry's potions grade References: <1087262815.8441.12920.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007501c453be$0b6cfc40$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101613 Shaun:A question I've had ever since I read it through the >second time was if the mark was an 0 or an O - was it a zero or an >Outstanding? I assume Snape pays attention to what is going >on his class, so could often work out what mark something got >even if it never reached him for marking. I can't find the text at >the moment, but I seem to recall it saying something like 'the >mark looked suspiciously like a zero'. I can see Snape as the >type that could quite easily give Harry a good mark if it was >deserved because he *has* to - but at the same time taking >great delight in letting Harry think he's failed. (OotP, p 661, US version) At the end of the lesson he scooped up some of the potion into a flask, corked it, and took it up to Snape's desk for makring, feeling that he might at least have scraped an E. He had just turned away when he heard a smashing noise; Malfoy gave a gleeful yell of laughter. Harry whipped around again. His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, and Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating pleasure. "Whoops," he said softly. "Another zero, then, Potter..." So yes, it was definitely a zero, not an O for outstanding, and Snape did it on purpose. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 16 19:22:13 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:22:13 +0100 Subject: Which way? Message-ID: <78B94EFC-BFCA-11D8-9DB1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101614 Expectations and perceptions. Two of the attributes that all posters bring to the site. They're linked of course; each will modify the other and strangely each can develop independently of authorial intent, which just goes to show something or other. Expectations are many and varied; what will happen to Harry, how this will be explained, how that will be resolved. I'm not going into that either, or at least not in the detail that you'll see in the average post. It's the whole, the gestalt, how will the pretty bow be tied that combines the parts into one package, that's what I'm interested in, especially now that the end of the series is in sight. The wider expectations, or in some cases apprehensions, lurk as a sort of sub-text in some posts, more openly expressed in others, and they can be summed up with one question - "Which way will she go?" This is one poster's musings. Have your expectations changed as the series has progressed? Mine certainly have. What started as a fairly standard tale aimed at the younger market but entertaining enough to engage adults has become something else. It's ambivalent, complex and much darker. It addresses (if you're interested in that sort of thing) questions of loyalty, truth, goodness - not as absolutes but as spectra. They change depending on altered circumstances and the characters stance and the information available to them - and this can alter the reader's perceptions in parallel. Some will disagree vehemently - truth is an absolute, goodness remains so no matter what - but remember, this isn't real life we're talking about here, it's an unfinished work of fiction, presented from the viewpoint of one boy. The 'truth' does change - the 'truth' about James changed radically in book 5. The simple, straight-forward truth Harry had come to believe from what he had been told by friends such as Hagrid becomes much more complex and possibly disturbing when the Pensieve revealed another aspect to James's character. And James isn't the only one. Along the way there have been insights/information/actions that turn most of the major cast members from simple black or white to a more enigmatic shade of grey. How readers interpret such change varies. For some it's an interesting plot twist; some may try to justify or excuse what may be seen as aberrant or atypical behaviour; some see it as a possible pointer to things to come. It all depends on expectation and perception. The fan's forecasts divide, roughly speaking, into two groups; the first looks for a 'Harry triumphs, evil defeated, nearly all of them live happily ever after' - a morality tale resolution. After reading the first book this was my opinion too, and probably that of 99%+ of other readers as well. This may well be the way it ends - the simple solution; but I hope not. No, I'm not on about violence or blood-spattered carnage this time, though I do have a taste for it, I admit. It's just possible that the author may take us along a different path, a much more thoughtful and challenging path to an ending that promotes not so much a sigh of satisfaction as a continuing debate on decisions and morality. This would please the second group. I've opined above that many of the characters have taken on shades of grey; what if the resolution becomes similarly ambiguous? JKR once stated that she wasn't writing a moral tale but a tale hopefully with morality in it. She's also said that she doesn't care if she's only left with six fans and she won't confirm that Harry will survive the series. Straws in the wind? A morality tale invariably has a cut and dried ending - not so a tale from which morals can be drawn. They are often more diverse and thought provoking, usually because they do more than just sort the sheep from the goats and reward or punish accordingly. They invite the reader to use their discretion in how *they* interpret the actions of characters; the author stands aside, it's all up to you. The possibility that there might be only six fans left is obviously a gross exaggeration used to make a point - that it's her story and it'll be as she wants it and not a compromise to suit fans or critics. But it's still a possible hint that some or many fans may be upset by what happens in future books. Of course, this could be the death of Harry, a possibility she refuses to rule out, or it may be something else entirely. For most of us the first five books have been entertaining stage-setting - now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty, the finale, or close to it and the big question is, as it's always been - what happens now? Naturally, the expectations or hopes of any particular fan are much more limited than the total possible resolutions. It's rare for a fan not to have fairly well-defined ideas of how it will all turn out in his/her opinion. Opinions held by others are subjected to a level of criticism that one's own views don't get from one's self. To be expected, I suppose, but I sometimes think that most views aren't reached by a process of rigorous analysis, but by a combination of factors which probably includes among other things guess-work, wishful thinking and gut-reaction. It's only when one's choice is questioned that analysis takes centre stage to defend that choice with justification or rationalisation based on canon. Even so, there are possibilities that get no support, may not even get a mention. Considering that we regard ourselves as bunch of fearless adventurers, willing to explore potential story arcs, if only to reject them, this is enlightening. Let's look at a glaring example: "The one to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....mark as his equal.... neither can survive while the other lives" "he transferred some of his powers to you the night he gave you that scar." "...then one of us has got to kill the other one in the end?" "Yes" Three quotes that refer to what we assume will be the final showdown. Alone or in combination they've attracted lots of speculation. The vast majority of fans hold that Harry will win and that Voldy will go down. The preferred methodology varies; a fight, a trick or somehow Voldy can be made/persuaded to self destruct. A small number posit that both Harry and Voldy go down. Still counts as a win for the good side, but not so fluffy. Others that Harry and Voldy will somehow undergo a merger/transformation with the evil driven out or destroyed. How's that for covering the angles? Not very good actually. All potential theories that Harry doesn't win are ignored. Sorry; correction - a few wonder if Harry will go down and that Neville will be the eventual saviour of the WW. There are no serious theories suggesting that Voldy will win, though since he and Harry are 'equal' it should be a 50:50 chance. But nobody believes it will happen that way. There is yet another possibility; Harry defeats Voldy, then takes his place. (He's his equal, remember; it doesn't say opposite. And what if the transferred powers are corrupting Harry from within? He was certainly unHarry-like in the last book.) Or - the show-down never happens, a deus-ex-machina-like plot device renders it unnecessary. Or - Voldy is deposed by his own side as a hazard to their own health, let alone anyone else's. Or - Voldy, powerless, is caged forever in the Chamber. Or how about this one - it all ends with all magic being removed from the world. It'd sort out Voldy, the Muggle torturers and the Elf-maltreaters, that's for sure. (And JKR has said she doesn't believe in magic.) See? The possibilities are many, these are just a sample, lots more where they came from, but only a few endings get serious consideration. And that's just one facet of the story. Expectation and perception again. *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're the ones in blinkers. We have defined our own boundaries. This time we can't blame the author - so far as I can see she's never hinted that we should look in any particular direction, just the opposite. I for one hope that the author has wider vision than most of us have, wider than most of us can imagine. That she'll still have the capability to make us think, to challenge us to look at things differently instead of presenting us with a conventional ending. No, that isn't a call for 'evil' to triumph, it's a wish for something a bit more intellectually daring, provocative even, than the standard fantasy fare. Meat, not just potatoes. Something to chew on. There's a metaphorical split in the road somewhere ahead; one way goes the traditional route towards the theories that are most popular, the other path could go somewhere else entirely. The scene seems set for both possibilities; which way will Jo take us? Kneasy From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:29:09 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:29:09 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry's potions grade In-Reply-To: <007501c453be$0b6cfc40$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101615 clr1971 at a...> wrote: > Shaun:A question I've had ever since I read it through the >second time was > if the mark was an 0 or an O - was it a zero or an >Outstanding? I assume > Snape pays attention to what is going >on his class, so could often work out > what mark something got >even if it never reached him for marking. I can't > find the text at >the moment, but I seem to recall it saying something like > 'the >mark looked suspiciously like a zero'. I can see Snape as the >type > that could quite easily give Harry a good mark if it was >deserved because > he *has* to - but at the same time taking >great delight in letting Harry > think he's failed. > > (OotP, p 661, US version) > At the end of the lesson he scooped up some of the potion into a flask, > corked it, and took it up to Snape's desk for makring, feeling that he might > at least have scraped an E. He had just turned away when he heard a smashing > noise; Malfoy gave a gleeful yell of laughter. Harry whipped around again. > His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, and Snape was surveying him > with a look of gloating pleasure. "Whoops," he said softly. "Another zero, > then, Potter..." > > So yes, it was definitely a zero, not an O for outstanding, and Snape did it > on purpose. > > Christina in GA It could have very well been a tease by Snape. Although we all know that was on purpose, it doesnt necessarily mean that he gave Harry a zero. Jacqui --Who cant believe she just defended Snape :P From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 16:31:58 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:31:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary In-Reply-To: <1e3.23017f47.2e013e01@aol.com> Message-ID: <003401c453bf$722fca10$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101616 Cheryl H wrote: I don't think that Sirius knew that Pettigrew was alive until he saw him on the front page of the paper when the Weasleys went to Egypt. A visitor gave Sirius the paper, remember? And right after that he escaped. Surely he could have escaped as a dog before this, but this gave him the motivation to do it. He was heard to say in his sleep in Azkaban, "He's at Hogwarts, he's at Hogwarts." Thus the photograph in the paper is the conflict that give POA it's entire plot. Trevor responds: I think the newspaper simply give Sirius the location of Pettigrew, notice he is not muttering "he's alive at Hogwarts." I think Sirius believed Pettigrew was alive but hopeless as to finding him until he saw the paper which also revealed that Pettigrew had access to Harry. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antonia at timself.net Wed Jun 16 18:39:35 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:39:35 -0400 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040616143352.02255208@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101617 At 10:00 AM 6/16/2004, Mandy wrote: > Poor Lupin, as much as we all love him, cannot control his >Werewolf state; it's his tragedy, his cross to bare. > >Personally, as much as I love Lupin, if I had kids I would never! >allow them to be taught by a Werewolf, even if DD swore by him. I don't think I'd forbid him to teach, but I'd be EXTREMELY sure that SOMEONE would have absolute responsibilty for giving him that potion. Make it impossible for him to forget, maybe devise a spell or something that MAKES him take it, or flashes a big light at Snape or McGonagall or something going "LOOK GO GET HIM AND GIVE HIM HIS POTION NOW." He's fine if he takes his meds. Actually I take back Snape and McGonagall, they go outside Hogwarts, and may not be available. POMFREY is the one responsible. She wouldn't trust a KID to remember their meds, she should be responsible for making sure such a VITAL medicine was taken. Its in the NURSE JOB DESCRIPTION. Then I'd have no problem with him teaching. As long as there's someone BESIDES Lupin responsible as well. Because when he's NOT in wolf-form, he sometimes gets distracted. Also I'd want a safer place than the Whomping WIllow and Shrieking Shack to HOLD HIM. (pardon the insert of another show) but something like the cage they rigged for OZ on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Probably IN Pomfrey's domain. Tana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 18:42:20 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:42:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Argus Filch References: Message-ID: <039f01c453d1$a80fbb10$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101618 I've got this feeling that there is more to Mrs. Norris than meets the eye, but what? Is there any significance to her name? Why not Mrs. Peabody? Why not Mrs. McCartney? As to Filch, I just see him as a bitter, bumbling fool. I notice that Arabella Fig is not too uncomfortable accepting her squib status. Could it be that Argus had dillusions of grandeur? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed Jun 16 19:46:21 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:46:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101619 Barbara ( bd-bear ) said: As for Snape, don't you think there is a line he is going over when he singles out someone not doing anything wrong, or makes personal insulting comments to them? Whatever your teacher did, it doesn't sound like he made things into a personal attack on you, but that it was related more to having you meet a higher standard academically. Please correct me if I'm getting it wrong. I think Snape COULD do this, and maybe some of the students do respond to that, but I think if he gets results from his students, it's more because they are afraid of him than because he is inspiring them to do their best and go the extra mile. Lady Macbeth replied: I have no doubt he crosses the line with Harry, because I am certain that he's reading Harry wrong. He's not the only one in the series to do it - even people whom Harry thinks of as friends want too much to compare Harry to his father. Even when Harry's right there - Molly and Sirius shouting at each other about who does or does not perceive Harry as being the same as James - people do it to him. Snape, unfortunately, is seemingly the only one who had a bad experience with James. Snape's not readying them for being their "best" - he's readying them for the realities of life. Yeah, he told Hermione (and the others around) "I see no difference" when her teeth were hit with the hex and grew enormous. He's called her an insufferable know-it-all, silly girl, ignored her entirely. My question is, just how did Hermione EXPECT to be treated in the real (wizarding) world? Obviously, she came to Hogwarts expecting that all people are treated the same, regardless of ancestry, or the whole "Mudblood" scene wouldn't have happened. If there weren't someone constantly reminding her that prejudice is very real and very now, she may have even been able to put that off as "Oh, Malfoy's just an exception." As we've gone further through the series, the web of prejudice is being slowly spun out for all to see - there's even an offhand remark that Molly has a cousin who's an accountant, but they "never talk about him much". And Molly's distaste for anything Muggle, and the work that Arthur does with Muggle artifacts? Neville Longbottom. Poor, long-suffering Neville. Almost worthless wizard from an outstanding family of old and pure blood. Should be a top wizard. His grandmother has such high expectations, after all, he had his dad's wand and everything. He'd do SO much better if Snape weren't always looming over him and always tormenting him. Look how much better he does in Herbology! But do we know for a fact that no one in the Order, including Snape, knows that Neville could have also been the boy mentioned in the Prophecy, until Voldemort made his choice? How much does Snape know about why the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms? If Neville can't stand a little bit of "hovering" and "torment" from a teacher in school, I'd hate to see how he fared against much more threatening and much more real torment from Bellatrix Lestrange, or any other Death Eaters. That's the point I was getting at - they're living in a different world than the muggles are. Muggles worry about being "the best they can be" so that they can get that better job at Wal-Mart, or so that they can get that college degree, or so that they can get that raise from the CEO. The witches and wizards at Hogwarts will have to face a world torn by war and prejudice, where survival is a key element of life, where good doesn't always wear a white hat and evil a black hat, where Professor Snape is going to be the least of their worries. But, should any of what he's doing penetrate their thick skulls, they won't go for years without being ready (HOW long was Dumbledore going to put off telling Harry again? Just ONE more year? He DESERVED to be happy? He didn't NEED to worry? He was JUST a boy?). An effective teacher doesn't just teach them something that any of them could learn by reading a book, he (or she) teaches them how to be a mature and capable person in the world they're going to be living in as an adult. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antonia at timself.net Wed Jun 16 18:47:18 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:47:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs and Kwikspell In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040615181922.021773b8@www.timself.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040616144215.021bb670@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101620 At 10:32 AM 6/16/2004, you wrote: >Tana wrote: > >Eustace_Scrubb: >My guess is that Kwikspell is exactly analogous--it appeals to >"incompetent" wizards as well as squibs, people who feel their lives >are empty because they can't do magic or can't do it as well as their >parents/siblings/friends etc. It probably does most of them no good >whatsoever, but that doesn't stop people from shelling out their >hard-earned galleons in the hope that it will. I still maintain that a Squib is a magical person with a disability, or not enough magic, NOT an unmagical person. Otherwise Filch wouldn't try something like that, if he knows nothing will ever teach a squib magic I don't see him hurting himself that way.. VERY ODD QUESTION COMING. Okay Filch doesn't do or cannot do magic, EXCEPT that he communicates some how with the Kneazle Norris. (she has to be a kneazle even if its not said, otherwise she'd never be able to communicate with Filch the way she does.) So. Could Filch be a Homomagus (um I'm making up a word for the reverse of Animagus here?) is he a Kneazle gone human by mistake? He is kinda cat scruffy? Of course he can't do human magic.? Does Norris protect him because he's her son? End of weird suppositions. Tana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snpetite at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:03:14 2004 From: snpetite at yahoo.com (Rowena Watson) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:03:14 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: Any chance Mrs. Norris might not be what > she appears to be? > > > Eustace_Scrubb My impression was that Filch was something of a sadist, who enjoys torturing children. I suppose that it is possible, perhaps even likely, that there is more to it than that. Perhaps he has been cursed in some way, or charged with some task. Could it be a punishment for something? Or could it be voluntary, such as in exchange for something he wants. He does seem a bit over attached to 'Mrs. Norris' for her to be just a cat. Maybe she has been cursed to take on feline form and forever remain at Hogwarts and Filch remains in order to be near her? This is all speculation by the way, and really nothing more. Hopefull it will jumpstart a discussion on this topic which I find rather interesting. There seems to be so many possibilies. Roweena Watson ps. I am new here, I do hope there aren't any other members with the same name as me. If there are, I will certainly revise it to prevent any confusion. From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:22:58 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (Mary Olearchik) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616192258.73284.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101622 > SSSusan again: I was just "what > iffing"--contemplating the > highly unlikely situation in which Snape might > actually turn on Draco- > -and asking people what they thought Draco would do. > SilverD: Actually, in that scenario, I believe what mel said previously could be very what Draco would do, for the most part. I think at first, he would be in a state of semi shock before doing anything, since Draco actually respects Snape (he even recommends him for Headmastership at somepoint). If the treatment continued, I could see Draco then running to his father and complaining. But since Lucius is "on good terms" with Snape, I could see Lucius telling Draco that he must be doing something wrong (like letting a mudblood out score him), and to deal with it himself. Lucius could also mention something to Snape the next time they meet. SilverDragon __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:44:00 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:44:00 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: Mel: > In CoS (Don't have the book so can't give chapter and verse) we find > out, from Lucius, that Hermione got higher grades than Draco (and > everyone else). **** > Oh, as far as the claims that Snape *likes* Draco--I have yet to see > any *real* canon proof of Snape *liking* Draco. I think, for him, > Draco is means a to an end, like everything else. Ava: That put me in mind of the description of, I believe, the very 1st potions class, where Snape doles out loads of ad hoc criticism, except that he lauds Draco's 'wonderful' work. (Not the Slytherins generally, but Draco's specifically.) The fact that Hermione ends up with better grades suggests that the compliments of Draco's work don't mean a hill of beans. But, Snape has made the right impression on Lucius' son, and keeps up that appearance thereafter. That's not to say he's 'pretending' to like Draco more than, eg., Harry (whom he undoubtedly does not much care for), or that he doesn't genuinely favor the Slytherins - I'm sure he does - but it does suggest that he made a decision before that school year started that there would be something to gain in having the trust and good will of Lucius' son. That is, as Mel already noted, Draco is a means to an end. From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:52:55 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (Mary Olearchik) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape & Harry's potions grade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616195255.56948.qmail@web42006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101624 > Jacqui: > It could have very well been a tease by Snape. > Although we all know > that was on purpose, it doesnt necessarily mean that > he gave Harry a > zero. SilverD: I can see both sides of this. Like you said, Snape could very well just be teasing Harry. But (and forgive me, I cannot remember which book it was) Harry had said that he scraped a passing grade in Potions. If Snape had been giving Harry Outstanding grades, he would've done better than scrape a pass. So, I lean more towards the grades being zeros. SilverD __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed Jun 16 20:18:38 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:18:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape & Harry's potions grade In-Reply-To: <20040616195255.56948.qmail@web42006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101625 SilverD: I can see both sides of this. Like you said, Snape could very well just be teasing Harry. But (and forgive me, I cannot remember which book it was) Harry had said that he scraped a passing grade in Potions. If Snape had been giving Harry Outstanding grades, he would've done better than scrape a pass. So, I lean more towards the grades being zeros. Lady Macbeth: But then, WAS Harry doing Outstanding work, or was he doing "passable" work? I'm not sure how similar the grade weighting system is in Britain to the United States, but I know that someone who slinks by with D's and C's all year and pulls a couple of A's out of the air when they're under threat of failing can't expect to get an A for their final grade - they're usually thrilled with a C. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 20:20:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:20:18 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101626 SSSusan wrote: > > And none of that was the point of my post. Per JKR, Snape is a > sadistic teacher. Does anybody really think he's not *more* sadistic > with some students than with others? Draco may be an outstanding > student and get the grades he deserves; I've absolutely no reason to > doubt that he doesn't. I was just "what iffing"--contemplating the > highly unlikely situation in which Snape might actually turn on Draco- > -and asking people what they thought Draco would do. > Potioncat: What made you think of this? Well, let's see. If it were to start in Book 6 who would Draco complain to? Daddy is in prison. Or if he were escaped, he wouldn't be likely to set up an appointment with DD. I think we would see a small Draco. A less Bouncey Draco....Oh, wait, wrong story. Potioncat (not working on a FanFic are you?) ;-) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 16 20:20:31 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:20:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: respecting Snape References: <1087248434.5570.38951.m19@yahoogroups.com> <006f01c453bb$742fdca0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <002401c453df$5fc75d50$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 101627 > >As I argued earlier - Snape is in a position of > > authority and whether or not he personally has earned Harry's > respect, Harry > > is a student and should be respectful towards all his teachers. > > > K > Christina > Harry respects teachers like McGonagall who are strict but fair. He trusts > her. Snape has been nothing but mean to him and you cannot respect someone > for that. I agree he seems to have done well in his exams, especially if > Snape leaves him alone to concentrate. I am really going to hate it if the > end of the books come and Snape says "The past 7 years were all an act, > Harry, I had to act that way for my undercover missions for Dumbledore. I > really do like you." That just won't work for me. I admit that after > re-reading SS and beginning on CoS again that there is something about Snape > we are missing. He was all set to be the bad guy in SS but ended up being a > good guy. That surprised me. I'm looking forward to more Snape surprises. > But liking him or respecting him - I don't think so. > K I've said this three times already but in the vain hope that someone might actually pay attention this time I'll try again. I said that Harry should be respectful towards Snape *not* that he should respect him. Feeling respect for someone isn't something you really have control over any more than you can choose to like someone, but being respectful towards someone is a totally different matter. Harry has no control over Snape's behaviour but he does have control over his own and being rude and disrespectful merely shows that he still has a lot of growing up to do. While I doubt Harry being polite and well mannered would change Snape's behaviour one iota it would at least mean that one of them was acting like a 'grown-up' (and while Harry isn't an adult in the technical sense he is old enough to understand that the way he acts towards Snape is rude). And changing the subject slightly (felt I should put that in because on rereading it looked like I was trying to relate this to the subject of respectful behaviour and I don't mean to) - while Snape is far from nice to Harry and co I really don't feel that much sympathy for them. Snape's mean certainly but it's not like he goes around randomly hexing the kids. He's mean, so what? Deal with it! If I was on the Hogwarts' faculty and one of the kids complained to me about Snape I'd have a real urge to tell them to grow a spine. Snape feels he has good reason to dislike Harry and so is mean to him. Harry feels he has good reason to dislike Snape and so is a rude little brat around him. Are we seeing a pattern here? Regardless of whether they are right about having good reason to dislike each other (and for the record I think Snape doesn't have as much reason as he thinks) both of them are of the opinion that if they dislike someone it gives them the right to be as unpleasant as possible (well actually Snape could be a lot more unpleasant if he wanted and with a little imagination I'm sure Harry could too but they're as unpleasant as they can reasonably expect to get away with). I guess you could say that makes them both more honest than the average person since they don't bother to hide their feelings behind a facade of politeness, but frankly I think it just makes them both ill mannered. Just because Snape is mean, doesn't mean Harry has to be and vice versa. Snape's meanness doesn't excuse Harry's rudeness any more than Harry's rudeness excuses Snape's meanness. And on a last note - do I expect Harry to like or respect Snape? No not really, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things both to like *and* respect about Snape. K From lbiles at flash.net Wed Jun 16 20:23:17 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:23:17 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101628 Marmelade Mom wrote: > Sirius says James thought he should stay a dog and while he > didn't mind the tail, the fleas were murder (loved it). Then it > is Sirius (not Dumbledore) who tells Harry those who love us never > truly leave us. Was this a foreshadowing? Is there a way a > Wizard can leave behind a representation of himself (a dog?) > who will protect those he loved in life? > I > know JKR says those who die are truly dead, but I wonder about > the possibility of a mysterious dog showing up in 6 or 7, perhaps > only visible to Harry. > leb: I am extremely far behind on posts (1,000+) and hope I am not repeating anything said further on down on the list. I love this idea of a wizard leaving behind a representation of oneself. This sure would explain Mrs. Norris! It would be great for Harry to have a familiar with him to help him through the coming trials. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 16 20:23:32 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:23:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius: stupid, afraid or both? Was: Snape thought Lucius was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101629 > Wanda wrote: > That's the way I took it - that Snape truly didn't think that Malfoy would be at such a meeting. Which tends to change somewhat the supposed relationship between them. > > I thought of an alternate explanation for his startled reaction to > Harry's words, though. He might have just been shocked to hear so > abruptly of Lucius's cover being blown. Mandy here: I don't know if Snape was surprised at Lucius returning to the fold so fast, but I do think that Snape's reaction came out of his fear that Lucius reputation, in and amongst the Ministry would be blown. (As Wanda says above.) Snape at that moment doesn't know how Fudge will take the information of LV being back, and the last thing Snape needs is for his link with the Minstry, and potentially LV, through Malfoy to be destroyed. We know Snape has been intimate with Lucius Malfoy for years. We have a hint of this from Sirius when he remarked to Snape that Lucius has his `Lap Dog back'. That tells us two things, that Snape was working for Lucius in the past and is doing so again. I will maintain that Snape has never stopped working for Malfoy. They are both potent sources of information, too potent for either DD or Lucius Malfoy to pass up: Malfoy has information about the Ministry and Snape has information about DD and Harry. They've been greasing each other's palms for the last 16 years. Tit for Tat. DD and Snape were banking of the fact that Malfoy is going to be one of the first out of all DE, to get any information on LV. Malfoy seems to be one of LV top generals along with Bellatrix, and he is one of the few of importance who is not in Azkaban. Snape is hoping that when LV returns, that Malfoy with all his power will be accepted back by LV who needs the kind of connections and control at the Ministry that Lucius provides, and when Malfoy is accepted back, so opens the door of Snape. Snape suddenly moved toward Harry, in the Hospitial at the end of GoF, because he waited along time for this day to come, and can't risk loosing all he's worked and sacrificed for 16 long years. >Wanda wrote: >He (Snape) might have expected that someone as clever and prudent as Malfoy would >have always protected his identity, so that he could always plausibly deny everything. >Sure, nobody there expected Harry to come out of that graveyard scene alive, but >Malfoy seems to me the sort who would ALWAYS take precautions, just in case. Mandy again: You would think, right, but Lucius doesn't! Why? Why does clever, prudent and powerful Malfoy go back to LV, and proceed to make the biggest mistake of his life by leading the raid on the MoM? Why does the apparently brilliant Malfoy risk everything, EVERYTHING on that one raid! The only reason I can come up with is fear. That Lucius Malfoy is scared to death of Voldemort, to the point where he will do anything to prove his loyalty. All the power and connections and respectability Malfoy's built up over the years. The empire he's built for his son. All the potent Ministry information he has access to, one would think essential for LV. So, why does he do it? Perhaps Lucius has no choice. But then why does LV, who has many other efficient generals ready to take command, put Malfoy in charge? Doesn't Malfoy have the most to offer LV of all his inner circle? LV puts his best man, and all of his generals in one place at the same time. It's so stupid it makes me think that maybe LV did it on purpose. That LV wanted to deliberately clean house. Get rid of any doubt he may have about any of his inner circle and get rid of them all in one swoop. Ready to start fresh with a new younger bunch strait from Hogwarts itself. Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 20:27:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:27:17 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <002c01c453d2$d97f6960$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101630 Alina wrote: snip > As for the question of magic that we see done during holidays in, for > example, the Weasely household, my theory is that the MOM will only enforce > the no-magic rule if they know it's been performed without adult wizard > supervision. So, when Draco and the Weaselies come home, the MOM wouldn't > monitor them, assuming their parents would keep them out of trouble. I think > the restrictions are for people like Harry and Hermione, who the ministry > knows are out there without a grown up magical person to keep an eye on > them. Potioncat: But it also seems that the twins comment on the reminder that is given at the end of the end of the school year. And at the Weasley home, we see Ron and Harry carrying things to the table because they aren't allowed magic, while the adult brothers are using magic. So it looks as if parents are enforcing the rule, if nothing else. Potioncat From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 16 20:27:22 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:27:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape & Harry's potions grade References: <20040616195255.56948.qmail@web42006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c453e0$54224bd0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 101631 > > SilverD: > I can see both sides of this. Like you said, Snape > could very well just be teasing Harry. But (and > forgive me, I cannot remember which book it was) Harry > had said that he scraped a passing grade in Potions. > If Snape had been giving Harry Outstanding grades, he > would've done better than scrape a pass. So, I lean > more towards the grades being zeros. > K As far as we've seen from the books though the only marks that count are the exams (the evidence isn't 100% conclusive I'll admit but that's certainly what it looks like to me) so Snape could conceivably give Harry Outstanding marks the whole year through and it wouldn't make any difference at all to his passing the year - well actually it probably would have had an effect, bearing in mind how little Ron and Harry would study without an incentive if Harry got the impression he could pass the class with his eyes shut he wouldn't revise at all and would probably flunk the exam. (just like 99% of teenage boys the world over I suspect). K From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 20:41:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:41:18 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: <78B94EFC-BFCA-11D8-9DB1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101632 Kneasy: > Expectations and perceptions. > Two of the attributes that all posters bring to the site. > Opinions held by others are subjected to a level of criticism that > one's own views don't get from one's self. To be expected, I > suppose, but I sometimes think that most views aren't > reached by a process of rigorous analysis, but by a combination of > factors which probably includes among other things guess-work, > wishful thinking and gut-reaction. It's only when one's choice is > questioned that analysis takes centre stage to defend that choice > with justification or rationalisation based on canon. SSSusan: An insightful comment, Kneasy. I think there may be some HPfGU posters for whom this isn't true, but I know it's exactly true for many fans I know and, well, probably for myself most of the time, too. Kneasy: > Even so, there are possibilities that get no support, may not even > get a mention. Considering that we regard ourselves as bunch of > fearless adventurers, willing to explore potential story arcs, if > only to reject them, this is enlightening. > > The vast majority of fans hold that Harry will win and that Voldy > will go down. The preferred methodology varies; a fight, a trick or > somehow Voldy can be made/persuaded to self destruct. > > A small number posit that both Harry and Voldy go down. Still > counts as a win for the good side, but not so fluffy. > > Others that Harry and Voldy will somehow undergo a > merger/transformation with the evil driven out or destroyed. > > How's that for covering the angles? Not very good actually. All > potential theories that Harry doesn't win are ignored. Sorry; > correction - a few wonder if Harry will go down and that Neville > will be the eventual saviour of the WW. > > There are no serious theories suggesting that Voldy will win, > though since he and Harry are 'equal' it should be a 50:50 chance. > But nobody believes it will happen that way. > > There is yet another possibility; Harry defeats Voldy, then takes > his place. (He's his equal, remember; it doesn't say opposite. And > what if the transferred powers are corrupting Harry from within? He > was certainly unHarry-like in the last book.) > > Or - the show-down never happens, a deus-ex-machina-like > plot device renders it unnecessary. > > Or - Voldy is deposed by his own side as a hazard to their own > health, let alone anyone else's. > > Or - Voldy, powerless, is caged forever in the Chamber. > > Or how about this one - it all ends with all magic being removed > from the world. It'd sort out Voldy, the Muggle torturers and the > Elf-maltreaters, that's for sure. (And JKR has said she doesn't > believe in magic.) > > See? The possibilities are many, these are just a sample, lots > more where they came from, but only a few endings get serious > consideration. > And that's just one facet of the story. Expectation and perception > again. *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're the ones in > blinkers. We have defined our own boundaries. SSSusan: It's interesting, isn't it? Are these other possibilities ignored because we're oddsmakers at heart? Because of the gut reaction factor? Because of the "I don't WANT that to happen" aspect of it? Kneasy: > I for one hope that the author has wider vision than most of > us have, wider than most of us can imagine. That she'll still have > the capability to make us think, to challenge us to look at things > differently instead of presenting us with a conventional ending. > No, that isn't a call for 'evil' to triumph, it's a wish for > something a bit more intellectually daring, provocative even, than > the standard fantasy fare. Meat, not just potatoes. Something to > chew on. SSSusan: When you wrote, above, about how our perceptions & expectations have changed over the course of reading the first five books, I have to admit that I began to wonder how *disappointed* some would be if the ending *is* a simple one. Then as I read further, it seemed that there's a bit of a warning from you to those that might be looking for the simple ending, since JKR *has* made her story inreasingly complex and dark. But how interesting that I was only thinking of those TWO possibilities: too simplistic & sweet for one group; too dark & unhappy for another. Interesting because, myself, I've been holding out for "elegantly simple" from JKR. Not sugary sweet, but lovely in the way JKR can make things lovely, even if they're bittersweet & hold tragedy. Something *brilliant* in its simplicity and yet still so unique or unexpected that we didn't see it coming. I suspect you wouldn't use the same phrase I do, but I think you're offering out hope for something similar--a complex but not necessary negative ending, something nice and meaty. Sheesh--have I contradicted myself here in saying that I think you're hoping for something similar, when you want challenging & meaty (& complex?) and I'm calling it "elegantly simple"? It seems I am, yet they feel the same somehow.... Maybe I need a nap. Fascinating post, Kneasy. Siriusly Snapey Susan From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 16 20:45:27 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:45:27 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: <78B94EFC-BFCA-11D8-9DB1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: (much, much snipping) > How's that for covering the angles? Not very good actually. All > potential theories that Harry doesn't win are ignored. Sorry; > correction - a few wonder if Harry will go down and that Neville will > be the eventual saviour of the WW. > > There are no serious theories suggesting that Voldy will win, though > since he and Harry are 'equal' it should be a 50:50 chance. But nobody > believes it will happen that way. I quite agree - I've never heard anyone put up a detailed scenario where not only Harry loses, but his entire "side" loses. I don't know that it's necessarily timidity or narrow-mindedness that causes this, though. Most people have great difficulty imagining something, well, unimaginable. it's not just that we want a happy ending; we are almost hard-wired to believe in the triumph of good over evil, and light over darkness. It's not just a Christian thing, though that's probably the main guiding light for the readers here, whether they believe or not. It's basic to pretty much every religion and culture I've ever heard of. The contrary is nihilism, and nihilism is pretty stony ground for the imagination to thrive in. I've tried it, though. I've tried to picture the absolutely darkest outcome possible for the Harry Potter series. It starts with a confrontation between Harry and Voldemort that ends with Voldemort somehow conquering, but also setting off some sort of chain reaction that spreads through the entire wizarding world and wipes out everyone. It ends with the regular muggle world continuing placidly on its way, not even noticing the disappearance of wizards and magic. And that would explain why none of us, the readers, has met any of these magical folk - because they don't exist anymore! Now, the problem with a scenario like this, is that it is basically meaningless. It's Armageddon without any religious framework to give it significance. What are we supposed to make of a story where evil conquers and destroys everything? I'm left wondering what was the point of the whole thing? There's nothing but silence. It's not like any story I've ever read, and it's not really much like life, either. And I'm not one for protecting "the children" from every little bump and discomfort, but what parent is going to let an ending like that pass without comment? And why would they want their kids to read a story which they will just have to contradict? *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're the ones in blinkers. > We have defined our own boundaries. This time we can't blame the author > - so far as I can see she's never hinted that we should look in any > particular direction, just the opposite. > > I for one hope that the author has wider vision than most of us > have, wider than most of us can imagine. That she'll still have the > capability to make us think, to challenge us to look at things > differently instead of presenting us with a conventional ending. Does she, though? Is she really the sort of writer who will come up with the first nihilist fantasy for children? That would be very original, and I don't think Rowling is really that original a writer. Also, I don't detect that level of grimmness in her - I don't see her leaving her creation as a howling wilderness or blasted heath. She's got too much humour to turn into Macbeth this late in the game. I think it would just feel false and forced. Wanda From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 20:46:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:46:57 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry's potions grade In-Reply-To: <007501c453be$0b6cfc40$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101634 x > Shaun: A question I've had ever since I read it through the >second time was > if the mark was an 0 or an O - was it a zero or an >Outstanding? I assume > Snape pays attention to what is going >on his class, so could often work out > what mark something got >even if it never reached him for marking. I can't > find the text at >the moment, but I seem to recall it saying something like > 'the >mark looked suspiciously like a zero'. I can see Snape as the >type > that could quite easily give Harry a good mark if it was >deserved because > he *has* to - but at the same time taking >great delight in letting Harry > think he's failed. >Christina: > (OotP, p 661, US version) > At the end of the lesson he scooped up some of the potion into a flask, > corked it, and took it up to Snape's desk for makring, feeling that he might > at least have scraped an E. He had just turned away when he heard a smashing > noise; Malfoy gave a gleeful yell of laughter. Harry whipped around again. > His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, and Snape was surveying him > with a look of gloating pleasure. "Whoops," he said softly. "Another zero, > then, Potter..." > > So yes, it was definitely a zero, not an O for outstanding, and Snape did it > on purpose. > >Potioncat: I think these are two different times. I can't find Shaun's original post to read. But there's a time in an exam that Snape passes by and writes down a grade without speaking and Harry thinks the grade looks like a zero. But we're never told for certain. Sorry that I can't look it up. I'm not even sure which book it was. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 20:48:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:48:02 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <20040616192258.73284.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101635 SSSusan again: > > I was just "what > > iffing"--contemplating the > > highly unlikely situation in which Snape might > > actually turn on Draco- > > -and asking people what they thought Draco would do. SilverD: > Actually, in that scenario, I believe what mel said > previously could be very what Draco would do, for the > most part. I think at first, he would be in a state > of semi shock before doing anything, since Draco > actually respects Snape (he even recommends him for > Headmastership at somepoint). If the treatment > continued, I could see Draco then running to his > father and complaining. But since Lucius is "on good > terms" with Snape, I could see Lucius telling Draco > that he must be doing something wrong (like letting a > mudblood out score him), and to deal with it himself. > Lucius could also mention something to Snape the next > time they meet. Thanks! I don't think I was reading Mel right. I see what you mean-- that Lucius might take it out on DRACO ("How COULD you let a Mudblood outdo you?!?"), rather than running off to confront DD or Snape. I missed that in what Mel was saying, so thanks for re-emphasizing it. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 16 20:51:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:51:29 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101636 SSSusan responding to Kneasy's post > > Sheesh--have I contradicted myself here in saying that I think you're > hoping for something similar, when you want challenging & meaty (& > complex?) and I'm calling it "elegantly simple"? It seems I am, yet > they feel the same somehow.... Maybe I need a nap. > > Fascinating post, Kneasy. > x Potioncat: Boy, the two of you should write wine reviews. ;-) I'll have to respond to Kneasy's post later when I really have time to read it. Potioncat From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 20:57:44 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:57:44 -0000 Subject: Silent/Wandless Magic? (was Re: Has Trelawney Done Anything Magical?) In-Reply-To: <002f01c453be$fb7fb9c0$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trevor" wrote: > I believe I read somewhere that magic is possible silent and wandless- > obviously look what Harry did to Aunt Marge, to the snake in the zoo, > finding himself on roofs- but it less focused. A really good wizard/witch > is degraded by being silent/wandless but sometimes that doesn't seem to > impinge the outcome. In the DD vs VM scenes neither seem to use audible > spells. Perhaps well trained wizards and witches merely have to think the > incantation. > > > > Trevor The way I see it is sort of like learning math. At first you have to concentrate on what you're doing. You have to learn to add, first by counting on your fingers, then adding bigger numbers with pencil and paper. You learn more complicated math as your education continues. By the time you reach the end of your education, you no longer need pencils and paper for easier math problems. You know that one plus one is two and 5 times 5 is 25, that the square root of 144 is 12. You simply need to look at problems like 7x = 23 + 5 and know that X = 4. I believe magic would work in sort of the same way. For simpler spells all that is needed is a little focus and voila, you get the smae results as using a wand. For more complicated spells, Harry would of course still need to "work the problem out" to get his desired results and thus need a wand. The two most powerful wizards in ther world, DD and Voldy, likely would be like those people who can see a complex problem on a blackboard and know the answer before the rest of us could pull out our calculators. They can accomplish far more complex magic without a wand. As for more complex things like blowing up Marge with no wand, I liken that to seeing a math problem and knowing the answer, but not how to do the work. Does that make sense? Of course al this is magic and not math but, thats how I tend to view it. Jason From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 20:09:41 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:09:41 -0000 Subject: Squibs and Kwikspell In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040616144215.021bb670@www.timself.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko wrote: > At 10:32 AM 6/16/2004, you wrote: > Tana wrote: >>>Eustace_Scrubb: My guess is that Kwikspell is exactly analogous--it appeals to "incompetent" wizards as well as squibs, people who feel their lives are empty because they can't do magic or can't do it as well as their parents/siblings/friends etc. It probably does most of them no good whatsoever, but that doesn't stop people from shelling out their hard-earned galleons in the hope that it will.<<< > Tana: >>I still maintain that a Squib is a magical person with a disability, or not enough magic, NOT an unmagical person. Otherwise Filch wouldn't try something like that, if he knows nothing will ever teach a squib magic I don't see him hurting himself that way..<< Stefanie: We know squibs are different than Muggles, and have some underlying magical thread (other than the fact that they are knowledgeable about the wizarding world while Muggles aren't) because Filch can see and interact with Peeves, and Figg can see the dementors (OotP 7). Now, how are we told a wizard is indeed a wizard instead of a squib? The answers the book gives us are that said unschooled wizard will perform some type of "accidental magic" sans wand. If a child doesn't show this type of magic before their age of wizard schooling, even before the Hogwarts letter doesn't show up, the parents believe their child to be a squib. This "accidental magic" is wandless, of course, seeing as how the child has not yet purchased his first wand. (We do see an example of a child using a wand at the campsite in GoF -- was it little Kevin who was blowing up slugs with his father's wand?) But, on the whole, Harry's causing his hair to grow, Neville's bouncing -- the magic seen here is generally wandless. Could it possibly be that "wizardhood" is being able to channel the powers that be even without a channeling device? The accidental magic is shown to be haphazard and hard to control...so using a wand to concentrate one's control would just be easier. We have seen examples of wandless magic with wizards so it can be done with, I suppose, concentration -- perhaps a squib can only do magic with extreme concentration, and a wand? Could Kwikspell be a method of teaching squibs to channel whatever underlying energy they can with concentration and practice? (And perhaps the reason it sounds so "infomercial" is because, as we have seen, wizards aren't the most open-minded of people...could Kwikspell be an under funded, independent try at reaching out to those to be politically correct ;o) "magically challenged" people? From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:05:54 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silent/Wandless Magic? Message-ID: <20040616210554.88386.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101639 16June2004 Trevor wrote: I believe I read somewhere that magic is possible silent and wandless- obviously look what Harry did to Aunt Marge, to the snake in the zoo, finding himself on roofs-... In the DD vs VM scenes neither seem to use audible spells. Perhaps well trained wizards and witches merely have to think the incantation. Paula now: All good points, Trevor. But canon seems to point to the fact that trained witched and wizards know how to CONTROL and DIRECT their magic. Remember Harry's first meeting with Hagrid way back when in SS? One of the arguments that Hagrid used to convince Harry that he (Harry) was had powers was asking him if things had ever happened unexpectedly to him. But, Hagrid continued by arguing that Harry needed a real education. Seems like the ability to do magic is like any other natural ability. It has to be developed and directed. ~Paula Gaon See the Magical Creatures. http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 They are all together now. "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:09:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:09:01 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101640 Marmelade Mom wrote: I know JKR says those who die are truly dead, but I wonder about the possibility of a mysterious dog showing up in 6 or 7, perhaps only visible to Harry. leb replied: I am extremely far behind on posts (1,000+) and hope I am not repeating anything said further on down on the list. I love this idea of a wizard leaving behind a representation of oneself. This sure would explain Mrs. Norris! It would be great for Harry to have a familiar with him to help him through the coming trials. vmonte responds to both: >From Raincoast Books Interview, March 2001 Could Harry have a pet dragon? You can't domesticate a dragon whatever Hagrid thinks. That's simply impossible. So no. He's got more sense. He might get a different pet at some point but I'm saying no more at this moment. vivian From romuluslupin1 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:10:03 2004 From: romuluslupin1 at yahoo.com (romuluslupin1) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:10:03 -0000 Subject: Movie hints or crazy thoughts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101641 As I'm home nursing pneumonia, I'm spending a lot of time in front of the TV and this may have fried my brain a little, but... At the end of the first movie, after leaving Quirrel's body, Vapormort "walks" through Harry before disappearing (which doesn't happen in the book, as we all know). Is this foreshadowing the MOM possession in OOP? (or maybe JKR loved the scene so much she wanted to include it in the books somehow?) Is it a hint of how the story's going to end? (maybe in the end LV will possess Harry again and he'll jump through the veil?) Am I just going nuts from obsessing about HP too much? (very plausible, I know, but I'm in good company, methinks) Romulus Lupin, who just had an epiphany while rewatching Love Actually: Snape is married to Trelawney, that's why the teachers' marriages are kept secret (who in their right mind would want to 'fess up to getting drank one night and waking up with the seer from hell in their bed?) From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:18:38 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:18:38 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101642 > I've tried it, though. I've tried to picture the absolutely darkest > outcome possible for the Harry Potter series. It starts with a > confrontation between Harry and Voldemort that ends with Voldemort > somehow conquering, but also setting off some sort of chain reaction > that spreads through the entire wizarding world and wipes out > everyone. It ends with the regular muggle world continuing placidly > on its way, not even noticing the disappearance of wizards and > magic. And that would explain why none of us, the readers, has met > any of these magical folk - because they don't exist anymore! Now, > the problem with a scenario like this, is that it is basically > meaningless. It's Armageddon without any religious framework to > give it significance. What are we supposed to make of a story where > evil conquers and destroys everything? SNIP > Wanda What you're left with is what happens when someone chooses what is easy over what is right. In my own version of that, Harry refuses to accept his responsibility because it is easier that way. He's tired of it. He refuses to fight. Voldy conquers. All because Harry chose what was easy over the tougher route. Jason From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 21:26:05 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:26:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle and wizard pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: Jason: > I don't think English Laws would matter since Vernon would never > take Harry to the DMV or whatever it is over there. I was thinking a > few days ago that if laws were equal in the UK as US, Harry would be > forced to suffer Dudders getting his permit and learning to drive > over the summer. But since laws are different... Geoff: Vernon wouldn't have to take Harry anywhere. I'm not sure what function the DMV has - it sounds like our DVLC (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre) in Swansea which is the admin centre holding data on drivers and vehicles and does not deal with individual tests. Assuming that Harry had the available money and was 16, there is nothing to stop him getting a provisional licence which allows him to drive a small motorcycle. He does not have to be accompanied (as he would in a car) and would be able to organise his own test date when he was 17. The only problem might be money and where to park the machine; Petunia might not want it on the petunias. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:26:48 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:26:48 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101644 Barbara bd-bear wrote: > I think Snape COULD do this, and maybe some of the students do > respond to that, but I think if he gets results from his students, it's > more because they are afraid of him than because he is inspiring them > to do their best and go the extra mile. Del replies : I don't see those as being mutually exclusive. My horrible Maths teacher in last year of high school terrorized me, but it only made me work harder, to show her that I wasn't the stupido she thought I was, and that I was as deserving of a good treatment as any of her pets. She never treated me well, I don't think she ever truly realised that I wasn't stupid (there was one fleeting moment when I really astounded her, but I don't think it stayed with her), and I spent a miserable year because of her, but I got very good results at my Final Exams. And *this* is all that matters in the end, isn't it ? Because now I don't remember the pain that much, I don't care about her that much (I still do hate her, but nowhere as much as I did then), but I still enjoy the benefits of having had good results at my finals. So was she a nice teacher ? Nope. But was she a good teacher ? I have to say yes. Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 16 21:34:12 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:34:12 -0000 Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101645 > Potioncat: > I don't know what DD was thinking. I know he has two roles: Leader of the anti-LV group and Headmaster. But if you ask me, he confuses them. > > He took a young man, rumored at 11 to be up to his eyes in dark arts, who has the social skills of a rattlesnake, and was/is a member of the Death Eaters and gave him a job TEACHING children? From DD's point of view, Snape must be performing beyond his wildest dreams! > The two roles aren't in conflict, because as Harry's intuition told him in Book One, Hogwarts is a target of LV regardless. The Hat's strategy for defending the school and Dumbledore's strategy for defeating LV are the same: all those who are willing to oppose LV must be united. That includes people who study the Dark Arts, have the social skills of a rattlesnake and initially found the Death Eaters attractive. If you are willing to risk your own safety to protect innocent lives, then Dumbledore wants you on his side, even if your politics and his don't agree. And after all, Snape's ideas are pretty common in the wizarding world. There is no expectation that life is going to be fair, or that it's the Ministry's job or the school's to level the playing field. And the wizards have managed to convince themselves that the Muggleborn, the goblins and the centaurs are all as happy with the situation as the House Elves are, so it's no good just pointing out that things are unfair, as Hermione keeps discovering. LV is skillfully exploiting this situation by telling each group what it wants to hear. He has the gift, as some people do, of convincing you that he's only fooling everyone else -- *you* are in on his real plans. I've seen this done in real life, and the only way to fight it is for everyone to decide that they can put their factional differences aside long enough to deal with the manipulator. Pippin From djrfdh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:37:49 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:37:49 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101646 I think Harry already has "someone" with him....Hedwig....I still say there is more than just OWL there! drjfdh...wishing the DVD was already out! From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:45:05 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:45:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101647 > > Jason: > > I don't think English Laws would matter since Vernon would never > > take Harry to the DMV or whatever it is over there. I was thinking > a > > few days ago that if laws were equal in the UK as US, Harry would > be > > forced to suffer Dudders getting his permit and learning to drive > > over the summer. But since laws are different... > > Geoff: > Vernon wouldn't have to take Harry anywhere. I'm not sure what > function the DMV has - it sounds like our DVLC (Driver and Vehicle > Licensing Centre) in Swansea which is the admin centre holding data > on drivers and vehicles and does not deal with individual tests. Jason: The DMV is the Department of motor vehicles. They handle vehicle registration, tags, titles, drivers tests and licenses. Geoff: > Assuming that Harry had the available money and was 16, there is > nothing to stop him getting a provisional licence which allows him to > drive a small motorcycle. He does not have to be accompanied (as he > would in a car) and would be able to organise his own test date when > he was 17. The only problem might be money and where to park the > machine; Petunia might not want it on the petunias. Jason In South Carolina, a parent or guardian has to sign for anyone under the age of 18. Also for the car or motorcycle to be legal, it must be insured. LOL at the thought of Wizarding Insurance. I wonder if it would be run by goblins. I doubt that if Harry did get the bike, any of these details would come into play. I don't think Sirius or Hagrid had any sort of muggle license.. or insurance. Now that I think about it, I'm sure the motorcycle is a muggle one. I don't think Harley Davidson has a show room in Diagon Alley. But what do wizards use for gasoline? Hagrid standing at the pump is a funny thought. A half giant and a little bundle of joy that is Harry standing at a pump at the corner gas station on an enlarged motorcycle? I know it was Halloween but come on! LOL Jason From djrfdh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:45:46 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:45:46 -0000 Subject: Silent/Wandless Magic? In-Reply-To: <20040616210554.88386.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101648 I also think that perhaps there is "wish" craft....but like you said, it has to be educated and polished to make it work properly. In the movie, POA, when Harry "blows-up" Aunt Marge, he is doing it, clearly, with his mind! Pointing the wand at Uncle Vernon when he runs away, I think, is just a gesture to make Uncle Vernon back off...for he could just as well have blown-up the entire family if he'd chose to do so....we saw proof of this later in the film when he learns the Patronus Charm and defeats the dementors to save himself and Sirius....as Heromine said, "only a really powerful wizard could have been able to do that!" Harry has powers he doesn't even know he has yet, but they will be revealed in 6 and 7, or so I believe. djrfdh....just putting in my 2 cents worth! From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 16 21:45:55 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:45:55 -0000 Subject: a thought about career's advice In-Reply-To: <20040615122825.38254.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AnitaKH wrote: > > > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Geoff: > Can I ask a clarification for UK readers? Can I assume > that "electives" are what we would call "options", i.e. the choices > we make at Year 10 (the old Fourth Year) of subjects we are taking to > GCSE level? And which year is the "junior year" of High School? > > Ta! > > > akh: US high school students have required courses (English, math, science) and electives (foreign language, drama, journalism). Back in the ancient days (late '60s, early '70s when I was in high school), we were told in 8th grade, equivalent to grade 3, I think, what was required to graduate from high school, and what options we had. Those of use perceived to be on the "college track" were advised to take the maximum amount of English, a foreign language and high-level math. However, it wasn't until our Junior year (6th year of 7 or 11th year of 12, whichever system you use) that we had advisors talking to us about specific majors in college and what universities would fit us best. Geoff: Thank you for that. It fits what I thought. Electives are usually known as options in the UK and are very similar in their scope to the US electives you list. Students select them during the last term of Year 8 (the old Second Year) ready for their courses to GCSE in Year 11 (the old Fifth Year). If they are staying on at school, they will move into the Lower Sixth followed by Upper Sixth (we tend not to use Year 12 and Year 13 designations in the UK). From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:47:29 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle and wizard pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616214729.10724.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101650 Geoff Bannister wrote: Geoff: Vernon wouldn't have to take Harry anywhere. I'm not sure what function the DMV has - it sounds like our DVLC (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre) in Swansea which is the admin centre holding data on drivers and vehicles and does not deal with individual tests. The DMV in the US is the Department of Motor Vehicles. This is the department that takes care of licensing drivers. They also do the testing. In the US, a teenager can get a "learner's permit" at (usually) age 15. This entitles the teen to drive with a licensed driver over the age of 18. To get the permit, the teen has to pass a written test over rules of the road, signs, etc. When the teen comes back at age 16, he/she takes a driving test and eye test. If they pass, then they receive their regular license. I am not sure about for a motorcycle, but I do know that it is a seperate license, as is the commercial license. Hope that clears up our confusion!! (huh??) moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 16 21:52:15 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:52:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wizard pics Message-ID: <133.30658abe.2e021b0f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101651 In a message dated 6/16/2004 2:34:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, pcsgames at toltbbs.com writes: > I like the idea of polyjuice paint. > I knew I'd seen something on moving pictures...CoS, when Harry first meets Colin Creevey. Colin asks if he can take a picture of Harry and comments that 'a boy in my dormitory said if I develop the film in the right potion, the pictures'll move.' I suspect that paintings are treated similarly, the WW does tend to stick to the tried and true. Wonder why they ever accepted cameras? Perhaps a muggle-born developed the potion used on film from the one used on paintings. Cheryl, who's been experiencing a weird bit of deja vu...my initials are also C. H. Waves at her twin ~~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 16 21:55:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:55:33 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius: stupid, afraid or both? Was: Snape thought Lucius was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101652 Mandy: > You would think, right, but Lucius doesn't! Why? Why does clever, prudent and powerful Malfoy go back to LV, and proceed to make the biggest mistake of his life by leading the raid on the MoM? Why does the apparently brilliant Malfoy risk everything, EVERYTHING on that one raid! The only reason I can come up with is fear. < You're overlooking something. Voldemort thinks that the prophecy contains information on how to destroy him. He daren't go after it himself, but he can't send anyone but his most trusted lieutenants to bring it to him. I agree that if Snape knows Malfoy was a DE but thought he was under Imperius, then Malfoy probably knows that Snape was a DE too. But in that case maybe he thinks they have a deal--Snape will keep Malfoy supplied with scuttlebut about Hogwarts (as a member of the Hogwarts Board of Governors, Malfoy would find that useful) and Malfoy won't mention to anyone that Snape was a DE. That would fit with the lapdog comment, wouldn't it? Of course once Malfoy got kicked off the Board, he wouldn't need Snape anymore, except that he's Draco's Head of House. Which would give Snape a good reason to suck up to Draco all the time. Pippin From djrfdh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 21:57:06 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:57:06 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101653 I thought Filch was a "failed" wizard, which would imply that perhaps he was a student at one time at Hogwarts, but failed to make the grade...unlike Hagrid who was ousted for being falsely accused of killing Moaning Myrtle. I do think there is something about Mrs. Norris....perhaps she's Filch's wife who was "cursed" for some inane reason and DD decided to keep them both as punishment....didn't Filch say, in SS, that he sure did "miss the screaming"? That "there was a time when the students would have hung in the dungeons as punishment"? Makes you wonder, just what kind of school Hogwarts was before DD took over! It could also explain the reasoning of the Ministry of Magic in OOTP! They aren't exactly a likeable bunch there either! djrfdh....methinks the plot thickens! From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 22:02:53 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616220253.85227.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101654 vmonte wrote: greatelderone wrote: No it wasn't. He says so in PS/SS when he's on Quirrel head that Lily didn't have to die. The fact that he was willing to spare one of his enemies just raises a few questions imo. "How touching?" it hissed. "I always value bravery?.Yes, boy, your parents were brave?.I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight?.but your mother needn't have died?she was trying to protect you?.Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." vmonte responds: The point of my post was that JKR mentions that we find out important information about Lily in book 5 and 7, and that information is what leads Harry to do something. You are quoting from book 1. vivian :) We know that James and Lily were not exactly on friendly term when the OWLs took place but married not too long afterward. We also know that there is more to the Evan's family than we know. There are many pieces to a puzzle. I think that HP is going to have to figure out the puzzle pieces and that is going to give him the "weapon" to go against LV. What those pieces are keep staying just out of reach. They will come together in Book 7. How is that? Vague enough to make JKR proud?? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 16 22:02:51 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:02:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Express rolling stock (was Fishing for ideas) Message-ID: <88.cfaa391.2e021d8b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101655 In a message dated 6/16/2004 6:47:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: However, if JKR had been thinking of the modern Real World, she might be influenced by modern Mark 3 or Mark 4 stock. Mark 4 stock does appear in the DVD - the GNER trains in the background at Kings Cross (in dark blue livery with a red relief line) are made up with this stock. These are longer and seat around 60 people. So, to be quite honest, we can only speculate as to how many folk might be on the HE which leaves your question unresolved. ===================== Sherrie here: Not to mention that, with magic taken into consideration, the answer would have to be "as many as it NEEDS to hold"...rather like the Anglia's trunk, eh? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 16 22:05:54 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:05:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape & Harry Message-ID: <12e.444aba0f.2e021e42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101656 In a message dated 6/16/2004 7:01:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: Del replies : I saw the movie. Cried a lot. Because it was all so STUPID !! So much loss, so much grief, all for almost *nothing* : if only those kids had understood that their freedom was only a matter of *time*, not a matter of gaining power over those in power ! ==================== Sherrie here: Indeed - to combat Snape's "power-over", Harry's best strategy would be to cultivate his own "power-from-within". But, alas... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jun 16 22:11:58 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:11:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape thought Lucius was under Imperio ? was Re: Racism a... Message-ID: <141.2c3683a4.2e021fae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101657 In a message dated 6/16/2004 9:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Pippin: > That's one explanation, (I can't remember who deserves the > credit) for "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry > looked at him, Snape's eyes moved back to Fudge." in GoF. > Now that we know about legilimency, I read that as Snape being > surprised and looking into Harry's eyes to see if he was telling > the truth. If Snape was surprised to find out that Malfoy had > returned to the circle, then perhaps he thought that Malfoy really > had been under Imperius before. > Potioncat: That's very interesting. I hadn't picked up on that one before. =============== Sherrie here: I've always taken that little movement as an attempt to get Harry's attention and shut him up - before he said too much. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 22:33:37 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:33:37 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: Snip. > > Snape's not readying them for being their "best" - he's readying them for > the realities of life. If Dumbledore keeps Snape at school to teach the students a lesson how to deal with nasty people and JKR said as much, then I suppose the mission is accomplished. But is everything else accomplished? Is Snape a good teacher because students learn how to deal with people like him in life? I don't think so. I expect so much more from a good teacher. snip > Neville Longbottom. Poor, long-suffering Neville. Almost worthless wizard > from an outstanding family of old and pure blood. Should be a top wizard. > His grandmother has such high expectations, after all, he had his dad's wand > and everything. He'd do SO much better if Snape weren't always looming over > him and always tormenting him. Look how much better he does in Herbology! Alla: Actually, yes. Nevill would do so much better if Snape would not have been tormenting him and as we saw in OoP, he actually did. > But do we know for a fact that no one in the Order, including Snape, knows > that Neville could have also been the boy mentioned in the Prophecy, until > Voldemort made his choice? How much does Snape know about why the > Lestranges and Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms? If Neville can't stand > a little bit of "hovering" and "torment" from a teacher in school, I'd hate > to see how he fared against much more threatening and much more real torment > from Bellatrix Lestrange, or any other Death Eaters. Alla: It does not matter to me. To me there is NO good reason for which person could be tormented. Snape wants to prepare Neville for real life difficulties? How about talking to his other teachers and find out HOW you can prepare him in a way it works best for the boy, not for the Snape sadistic nature. snip. An effective teacher doesn't just teach them something that any of > them could learn by reading a book, he (or she) teaches them how to be a > mature and capable person in the world they're going to be living in as an > adult. > > -Lady Macbeth Sorry, I don't believe that that is what Snape does. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 22:39:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:39:50 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Justifiable? No. I've never thought it was justifiable. I don't think > I've ever argued that it was fair or appropriate, though I've tried > to show why Snape might think it was. Alla: Pippin, the question was directed to everybody and I've seen many many posts arguing that Snape methods ARE justifiable under any circumstances. That is why I phrased the question this way. :o) snip. > > People aren't Chinese menus--you can't order a Snape special > with extra cunning, resourcefulness and bloody-mindedness, > hold the resentment and sarcasm, please. :) LOL! > Let me ask a question in return: if you were convinced that > Snape had made an honest effort to put his grudge against > James aside and done all that he knew to teach Harry > Occlumency, would you forgive him for stopping the lessons? Alla: If I knew that he tried his hardest to remember that Harry is not James and could not do it? Yes, I probably would, but I don't believe that this is the case. I believe that even if he somewhat concerned about Harry's safety, he enjoys tormenting Harry and Neville. I believe that he is having fun with it and to me it is unforgivable. (The enjoyment part) Alla From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 16 22:58:40 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:58:40 -0400 Subject: another Ginevra sighting Message-ID: <001c01c453f5$785f9740$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101660 Didn't JKR say that she's a fan of Agatha Christie? I just picked up one of our AC volumes and it hit me. In the Poirot novel "Appointment With Death" there is a young girl named Ginevra. Very unlike Ginny, though, she's been terrorized by her overbearing and sadistic mother into near-insanity, enventually coming to believe herself to have been abducted and waiting for someone to come and rescue her. After the overbearing mother's death, she gets better and ends up being a successful actress, I believe. Now, of course, there isn't much connection here with the HP Ginny, unless you count being complete and total opposites of each other a connection. Still, if JKR is an AC fan, she could've seen the name there and just liked it. Alina. From john at sunstoneonline.com Wed Jun 16 23:11:58 2004 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:11:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Silent/Wandless Magic? References: <1087425248.22558.59701.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c453f7$53656d00$0e00a8c0@sunstone77nev7> No: HPFGUIDX 101661 Jason writes: The way I see it is sort of like learning math. At first you have to concentrate on what you're doing. You have to learn to add, first by counting on your fingers, then adding bigger numbers with pencil and paper. You learn more complicated math as your education continues. By the time you reach the end of your education, you no longer need pencils and paper for easier math problems. You know that one plus one is two and 5 times 5 is 25, that the square root of 144 is 12. You simply need to look at problems like 7x = 23 + 5 and know that X = 4. I believe magic would work in sort of the same way. For simpler spells all that is needed is a little focus and voila, you get the smae results as using a wand. For more complicated spells, Harry would of course still need to "work the problem out" to get his desired results and thus need a wand. The two most powerful wizards in ther world, DD and Voldy, likely would be like those people who can see a complex problem on a blackboard and know the answer before the rest of us could pull out our calculators. They can accomplish far more complex magic without a wand. As for more complex things like blowing up Marge with no wand, I liken that to seeing a math problem and knowing the answer, but not how to do the work. Does that make sense? John writes: I like this explanation a lot. There seems to be different levels of magical ability as one progresses in magical learning: 1. Emotion-Driven Magic - Harry up on the kitchen roof at school, setting the boa on Dudley, and so on. 2. Early Wand Magic - Magic that most students do at Hogwarts includes a proper wand, waving it correctly, and giving the correct spell or incantation. It seems to take such practice and concentration that when not done properly, it can go quite wrong (leaving a tail on a mouse being turned into a teapot, or something). Older wizards may need to do this for things they don't do as often, such as Bagman magically magnifying his voice at the world cup? 3. Advanced Wand Magic - This might include magic that wizards and witches have gotten so good at they no longer need to use the incantation or even wave the wand properly. Older wizards are seen doing this all the time - conjuring items, moving things around, etc. DD seems to rarely use an incantation - even when conjuring a Patronus. 4. Wandless Magic - We know this is probably more advanced than most wand magic, but perhaps not always. It differs from emotional driven magic because this is controlled and deliberate - such as Dumbledore making himself invisible (although we aren't expressly told he didn't use a wand, I'm assuming he didn't). Other examples seem to include apparating and becoming animagi. (Neither Sirius nor Pettigrew had wands as they transformed, so it's a given that no wand is needed for animagi.) 5. Invented Magic - Here's where we get into a bit foggier area. I think canon implies quite clearly that advanced wizards (pretty much DD and Voldemort) can create their own spells and magic. DD's way cool trick in his office as he escapes Fudge and Umbridge sounds like he created the necessary spell at the time - one that would stun everyone by zooming around the room, but then lead them to believe they'd only been out a few minutes. Granted, I don't think we're ever expressly told that DD or Voldemort are capable of creating their own spells as they need them, but I think it's implied - rather than they are so familiar with every wizarding spell they just know everything. The old wizard who tested DD on his O.W.L.'s said he "did things with a wand I'd never seen before." 6. Old Magic - This is not necessarily more advanced to perform, but is more advanced to understand and appreciate. DD appreciates the old magic of love and sacrifice, while Voldemort didn't regard it or think about it before he attacked Harry. We seem to know the least about this kind of magic, but know that it is Harry's greatest strength, because it can only be practiced sincerely - it cannot be misused or manipulated, it seems. John From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 23:21:32 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:21:32 -0000 Subject: British V American Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101662 I was just over at the movie list and saw something that almost made me cry before I was told it was a parody. An article talking about a WB tv series Harry Potter. They mentioned Americanizing the series for an American Audience. That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, that I would like to do away with the American edited version all together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. Am I the only one that feels this way? Jason Sorry if this belongs on the OT list. Please feel free to move it if you feel the need :-) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 23:25:10 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:25:10 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: snip. > That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout > the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture > including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, > that I would like to do away with the American edited version all > together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but > they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become > accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. > > Am I the only one that feels this way? > > Jason > > Sorry if this belongs on the OT list. Please feel free to move it if > you feel the need :-) Alla: No, you are not the only one. I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that different at all. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 16 23:28:21 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:28:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew - Questions and Commentary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101664 In a message dated 6/16/2004 3:19:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, AntaresTCH at aol.com writes: > I don't think that Sirius knew that Pettigrew was alive until he saw him on > > the front page of the paper when the Weasleys went to Egypt. A visitor gave > Sirius the paper, remember? And right after that he escaped. Surely he could > have > escaped as a dog before this, but this gave him the motivation to do it. He > was heard to say in his sleep in Azkaban, "He's at Hogwarts, he's at > Hogwarts." I think that cannon supports the theory that the Des and Sirius knew Pettigrew was alive and that he'd been a traitor for some time. I reread portions of PoA and I found some clues. In The Three Broomsticks we have the following after Fudge & McGonagall explain the Fidelius Charm and DD's reservations: - "He was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements," said Professor McGonnagall darkly. "Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who." - Then, in the Shrieking Shack: - "You haven't been hiding from ME for twelve years," said Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Askaban, Peter?. They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them?. I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. - Later, after transforming Scabbers back to Peter: - "So you see, I had to do something, I was the only one who knew Peter was still alive ...." And as an aside, I think we have, in PoA, another instance, unrecognized of Harry seeing into Voldemort's mind. After he returns from Hogsmeade after overhearing Fudge & company. - He could hear [though he had no idea what Black's voice might sound like] a low, excited mutter. "It has happened, My Lord?the Potters have made me their Secret-keeper?." And then another voice, laughing shrilly, the same laugh that Harry heard inside his head whenever the dementors drew near?. - Is Harry reliving Voldemort's memory of Pettigrew's betrayal? The Other Cheryl... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 16 23:54:42 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:54:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... Message-ID: <1c8.1aad5641.2e0237c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101665 In a message dated 6/16/2004 3:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, antonia at timself.net writes: > POMFREY is the one responsible. She wouldn't trust a KID to remember their > meds, she should be responsible for making sure such a VITAL medicine was > taken. Its in the NURSE JOB DESCRIPTION. And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was in charge of his condition. PoA; Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs: -Lupin: "Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madame Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform." So, why wasn't it Madame Pomfrey's job to provide Lupin with his potion and security, as she had in the past? The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 00:06:45 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:06:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fishing for ideas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101666 "Phil Boswell" said: >Just got to jump in here in response to all these theories about >Dumbledore being someone from the present day sent back in time ... *snip* >A personal thing, perhaps, but I am getting rather tired of people >trying to spatchcock their own favourite SF-nal device (time travel in >this instance) into the Harry Potter books no matter whether it makes >any sense at all. May I agree loudly with this? In my opinion you can say the same thing about time travel as a literary device that you can about using it to solve problems in the wizarding world: "massively dangerous and to be avoided at all costs." It was used once, and really well; using it to send Dumbledore, Ron, Harry, Snape, Lupin, Fawkes, Crookshanks, or who knows who all back to Godric's Hollow will end up looking like one of those efforts to stuff a lot of people into a phone booth. It won't be poignant or dramatic, just silly (although it might be funny if it were written like those comedy plays where groups of people who shouldn't meet are running in and out of closets and bedrooms, each unaware of the other). And as far as I can tell, the theory that Dumbledore and Ron are the same person is based only on the fact that Dumbledore's hair used to be red. (If there is any other canon for this, please by all means correct me on this.) >For the record, I have a mini-theory about Dumbledore's partial >omniscience having something to do with his Chocolate Frog Cards I thought about that too. And he did say he didn't care what the Ministry did to him as long as they didn't take him off the Chocolate Frog cards. Maybe he just meant that being on a series of children's educational cards was more important to him, as an educator, than the honors he had from the Ministry. And maybe not. >Would anyone have a problem with the idea that Dumbledore might have a >kind of internal "Marauders' Map" and be hyper-aware of where people >were in Hogwarts? Just as a quick example, how *did* he know that >Harry was visiting the "Mirror of Erised" in the first place. He might. We know he has a scar on his knee (I think) that resembles the London Underground. (I wonder if that's going to come in handy if someone ever needs to infiltrate Gringotts?) And it wouldn't necessarily have to be internal -- after all, the original Marauder's Map was made by four students, so the magic involved is presumably not beyond Dumbledore. But the network of portraits may be sufficient for him to keep an eye on Hogwarts, or maybe just on Harry. Or it may just be that Snape isn't the only Hogwarts teacher who wanders at night -- and Dumbledore, by his own word, doesn't need a cloak to make himself invisible. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 00:07:54 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:07:54 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101667 Mel said: >Oh, as far as the claims that Snape *likes* Draco--I have yet to see >any *real* canon proof of Snape *liking* Draco. I think, for him, >Draco is means a to an end, like everything else. I think the claim that Snape likes Draco is based on the fact that Snape calls Draco "Draco," not "Malfoy," which as far as I recall he does not do to any other student. This suggests either friendly feelings (or the appearance thereof) , or a habit of social interaction outside school (via Lucius Malfoy), or both. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 00:29:08 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617002908.42781.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101668 dumbledore11214 wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: snip. > That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout > the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture > including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, > that I would like to do away with the American edited version all > together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but > they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become > accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. > > Am I the only one that feels this way? > > Jason > > Sorry if this belongs on the OT list. Please feel free to move it if > you feel the need :-) Alla: No, you are not the only one. I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that different at all. Add another vote to that!! Yes, there are some British things (in the US books) that we have to look up (and then go..DUH!!) but that only makes people want to find out more. Especially my kids. We will run across things and I will send them to look it up. JKR would be pleased (I hope) that her books are used to close the gaps around the world. Kids are finding out about other kids and that is a good thing (and if we grownups learn a few things too... great!!). I would love to have all of the series in the British version and I am working on it on e-bay. (keep getting out-bid). moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu Jun 17 00:32:53 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:32:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which way? In-Reply-To: <78B94EFC-BFCA-11D8-9DB1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101669 Kneasy wrote: Have your expectations changed as the series has progressed? Lady Macbeth replied: I can't say that they have - I was one of those "kids" (though I don't know if the label fits, being in my 20s at the time) who picked up a book for the first time in years to read the first book. What a breath of fresh air! I don't think I've actually dared to have any "expectations" of where the series is going (ok, a few - though, if Jo truly does not care what critics, fans or publishers think, then those "expectations" go out the window as well). The only things I expect for certain out of each book is a gripping, memorable tale, and that hasn't changed. :) Kneasy wrote: It's just possible that the author may take us along a different path, a much more thoughtful and challenging path to an ending that promotes not so much a sigh of satisfaction as a continuing debate on decisions and morality. This would please the second group. Lady Macbeth replied: This would please ME...probably. ^_^; It's something along these lines that I'm hoping for. Kneasy wrote: They invite the reader to use their discretion in how *they* interpret the actions of characters; the author stands aside, it's all up to you. Lady Macbeth replied: This is something I really enjoy in a book, and something I look forward to seeing come out in the last two Harry Potter books. Kneasy wrote: There is yet another possibility; Harry defeats Voldy, then takes his place. (He's his equal, remember; it doesn't say opposite. And what if the transferred powers are corrupting Harry from within? He was certainly unHarry-like in the last book.) Lady Macbeth replied: Have you been reading my fics and not e-mailing me feedback?! :C LOL This is one of the things I was thinking I would love to see Jo take an angle on (or something similar to this idea) but it wouldn't sit well with a lot of parents or publishers. ^_^; Kneasy wrote: Or - Voldy is deposed by his own side as a hazard to their own health, let alone anyone else's. Lady Macbeth replied: Oh, I get it. You're taking lessons on getting in peoples' heads and you've been inside my head this whole time. ~_^ Kneasy wrote: Or - Voldy, powerless, is caged forever in the Chamber. Lady Macbeth replied: That would suck. I want Harry to be able to have control of the Chamber of Secrets. It's a great place for him to have for his own, being as only he and Voldemort can get in. Kneasy wrote: I for one hope that the author has wider vision than most of us have, wider than most of us can imagine. That she'll still have the capability to make us think, to challenge us to look at things differently instead of presenting us with a conventional ending. No, that isn't a call for 'evil' to triumph, it's a wish for something a bit more intellectually daring, provocative even, than the standard fantasy fare. Meat, not just potatoes. Something to chew on. Lady Macbeth replied: I'm sincerely looking forward to this too. I really, really, really want these books to break the mold of what a "children's book should be" and be a very powerful tale that will stand the test of time. Kneasy wrote: the other path could go somewhere else entirely. Lady Macbeth replied: The story of my life! LOL But seriously, as I mentioned above, this would be TERRIFIC to see. As the character Lydia said in "Beetlejuice" - "I *am* the 'strange and unusual'." It'd be nice for Jo to lead the world away from the "normal" and "traditional" for once. :) -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! Better than YahooPlus, Hotmail, or Gmail! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 00:38:59 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617003859.14556.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101670 pippin_999 wrote: > Potioncat: > I don't know what DD was thinking. I know he has two roles: Leader of the anti-LV group and Headmaster. But if you ask me, he confuses them. > > He took a young man, rumored at 11 to be up to his eyes in dark arts, who has the social skills of a rattlesnake, and was/is a member of the Death Eaters and gave him a job TEACHING children? From DD's point of view, Snape must be performing beyond his wildest dreams! > The two roles aren't in conflict, because as Harry's intuition told him in Book One, Hogwarts is a target of LV regardless. The Hat's strategy for defending the school and Dumbledore's strategy for defeating LV are the same: all those who are willing to oppose LV must be united. That includes people who study the Dark Arts, have the social skills of a rattlesnake and initially found the Death Eaters attractive. If you are willing to risk your own safety to protect innocent lives, then Dumbledore wants you on his side, even if your politics and his don't agree. And after all, Snape's ideas are pretty common in the wizarding world. There is no expectation that life is going to be fair, or that it's the Ministry's job or the school's to level the playing field. And the wizards have managed to convince themselves that the Muggleborn, the goblins and the centaurs are all as happy with the situation as the House Elves are, so it's no good just pointing out that things are unfair, as Hermione keeps discovering. LV is skillfully exploiting this situation by telling each group what it wants to hear. He has the gift, as some people do, of convincing you that he's only fooling everyone else -- *you* are in on his real plans. I've seen this done in real life, and the only way to fight it is for everyone to decide that they can put their factional differences aside long enough to deal with the manipulator. Pippin This is explained very easily with: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu Jun 17 00:46:08 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:46:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape & Harry's potions grade Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101671 In a message dated 6/16/2004 4:39:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com writes: But then, WAS Harry doing Outstanding work, or was he doing "passable" work? I'm not sure how similar the grade weighting system is in Britain to the United States, but I know that someone who slinks by with D's and C's all year and pulls a couple of A's out of the air when they're under threat of failing can't expect to get an A for their final grade - they're usually thrilled with a C. -Lady Macbeth I might have misunderstood, but the way Rowling presents the OWL testing, I got the idea that nothing else mattered but what you did on that test. The zero's that Snape gave Harry all year have no affect on his OWL result. There is no averaging other grades, etc. The O.W.L results is what it is, period. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 00:50:35 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:50:35 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: <40D0E99F.26494.255A14@localhost> Message-ID: <40D1777B.6521.66E975@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101672 On 16 Jun 2004 at 10:59, Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote: > >On 15 Jun 2004 at 19:25, Trevor wrote: > > > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape mistreats: > > his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right to belittle or to > > call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in front of the DADA class in > > POA). > > >>>From: Shaun Hately [mailto:drednort at alphalink.com.au] > > A teacher has no right to do this? > > That's an opinion - not a fact. At my school, it was quite clearly > understood that a teacher *did* have a right to belittle students > and to call them names - but *only* in very very specific > circumstances. > . . . But in my case, on the very few occasions (I can think of > two) where a teacher took this approach, it *worked*. It made me > work harder. It really did.<<< > > Perhaps this is a cultural thing. I'm in the US and speaking only for my > experience, if any teacher treated me like Snape treats some of his > students, I would definitely NOT have felt motivated to learn or do well. It is certainly a cultural difference to a great extent - but it's also a *personal* difference. I benefitted from this in class. So did a lot of my classmates. But certainly not *all* of them. There were plenty who gained no benefit, and probably some who would have been harmed by it in terms of losing motivation, etc, and things like that. *No* method of teaching, *no* style of teaching is appropriate for all students all the time. That's something that some educational theorists seem to have a hard time grasping at times. That there's no magic method that works for everyone all the time. And if you act like there is, you wind up neglecting some students (the ones who your method don't work for) in favour of others (the ones that they do work for). My view of teaching is that teachers need to use a range of methods - and to use the appropriate method for the individual they are dealing with. This means, to me, that if there are *any* kids in a class who are even occasionally going to gain some educational benefit from being 'belittled' (that's not the term I'd use but let's not get into semantics), then it is a valid strategy that the teacher should have the right to use. In the cases it was used with me, it was basically intended as a way of getting my attention, and making me feel bad about the fact I wasn't doing what I was meant to - I didn't want it to happen again, so I got back on track. That's *me*. There were other people around me who it wouldn't have worked for - and fortunately my teachers were generally competent enough to know these things. Now, back to the specific issue of Snape. Every indication I've seen in the books shows me that Snape *is* an effective teacher at least in the academic sense - his students learn the material they are required to. I have the impression that potions is one of their hardest subjects - and they do learn it. *If* Snapes methods were leading to his students failing, I would have no hesitation in condemning them - and that's why I do have some problem with his treatment of Neville. Because in his case, I'm just not sure it's improving things - and Snape has had enough time to work that out by now. > In > fact, in my senior year of high school, I had a math teacher who always > spoke in a patronizing tone to the class as a whole, calling us animals, > making ridiculous jokes. I thought he was awful and that we, although > students and much younger, still deserved respect. In contrast, whenever I > had a teacher who made me feel special or worthwhile or just gave me a > little extra time, I not only wanted to do well for me but also because I > didn't want to let that teacher down. Of course, that might just be more > about my own personal dynamics with authority figures, but I still think > it's more of a cultural thing. I don't think many US teachers would get away > with insulting their students, or openly favoring others (and I wish I could > think of a RW equivalent to taking points of one's "house" but I can't.) Yes, and it's also *perfectly valid* for a teacher to make their students feel special or worthwhile or give them a little extra time - again, *if* it's what those students need. And if, with a particular student, and a particular teacher, there's an 'easy way' and a 'hard way' and both will be equally effective, of course, the teacher should take the 'easy way'. And there's also plenty of teachers who can't do both depending on which is appropriate at the time. This is a hot button for me - I spent time in a school where everything was sweetness and light, where teachers spent all of their time trying to make learning happy and passionate for their students. And I *hated* it. I learned *nothing*. For me it was a complete, unmitigated disaster. Not because the methods were bad ones - plenty of kids were flourishing in that environment. They just weren't right for me. And because they were so dedicated to their cause, they couldn't change their methods. And then I spent time in a school where the number one priority in every class was for every student to learn. Most of the teachers didn't go out of their way to be mean or cruel - many, in fact, did their best to make the classroom a happy place for learning - it just wasn't their number one priority (if they could manage to do both, great - if there was any conflict, academic achievement came first). And this was the educational environment I *thrived* in. I *loved* it overall - even though there were certainly bits of it I hated. And some of the teachers I learned the most from were the ones who were most Snape like - because they wouldn't let me get away with anything except working. Now, one of the reason, the Harry Potter books appealed to me when I first read them is because Hogwarts reminds me a lot of my old school. And frankly - well, it worries me when I see people so willing to condemn the teaching methods of Snape - because I've seen them work so well. Most people who condemn them - not all - come from a very different educational culture - a culture in which someone like Snape is the very anathema of the ideal teacher. But that's not the only educational culture that exists, and it's not the only effective one. I would hate an educationally PC Hogwarts - the books just wouldn't have worked for me - just as that type of school system didn't work for me. And for a lot of other people too. The cultural differences are very real - honestly, I find it rather hard to understand why these books are as popular as they are with people who haven't had any exposure to the educational traditions (or even the 'educational literature' traditions) that JKR draws on so heavily in designing Hogwarts. It's weird to me - I know a significant number of fans do know the corpus of British school literature, but I'd say they are a distinct minority. Maybe it's that Hogwarts just seems so fantastic to people who are unfamiliar with that background that the fact that its fantastic gives it a special appeal... but there's people like me who love the books, and love Hogwarts because it's so *familiar* in many ways. Interesting dichotomy possibly - one large body of fans liking the school because it seems so ridiculousy unrealistic... and one large body of fans liking it because it seems so familiar. (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 00:55:58 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:55:58 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: References: <40D0E617.26628.179027@localhost> Message-ID: <40D178BE.16294.6BD67E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101673 On 16 Jun 2004 at 15:43, cubfanbudwoman wrote: > Shaun H. wrote: > > Is Snape as good a teacher as McGonnagal? No. But is Snape-the- > > Cruel more effective than Snape-the-Kind would be? I think that is > > very possible. > > > SSSusan: > What about Snape-the-Neutral?? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) > > It *would* be a possibility, though, you know, assuming a spectrum > rather than an either-or. Could our Snapey manage neutrality or is > that beyond him (beneath him?)? More likely, I think, he wouldn't be > interested in it...and it certainly wouldn't promote his image w/ the > DEs. You're right, that is certainly another possibility - it doesn't have to black or white, there is room for grey. But I think you're right that he wouldn't be interested... why? In my opinion, because I think Snape does the world in a pretty black and white way. I think Snape would regard the grey as... well, reminiscent of a certain pair of underwear - a neglected area lacking effort, lacking any real sense of purpose. I don't think Snape is particularly interested in what he would see as half measures. This may be why he's now (apparently) working on the side of good even though he is a very nasty man. For someone who doesn't believe in the middle ground, in doing things by half - rejecting Voldemort and evil, may mean supporting Dumbledore and good - no half measures. In the classroom - what is the point of changing his teaching style slightly? The kids aren't going to like Snape just because he (for example) lays off Neville. And there's no way he's going to change enough so they like him. No middle ground. No half measures. Snape-the-Cruel would find Snape-the-Neutral even more repulsive than Snape-the-Kind. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:00:19 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:00:19 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: <40D1777B.6521.66E975@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101674 While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another hobby :P) Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name she was using? For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 Jacqui From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:09:14 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617010914.23111.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101675 Jacqui wrote: While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another hobby :P) Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name she was using? For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 Jacqui Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:12:11 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:12:11 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: <20040617010914.23111.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Jacqui wrote: > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another > hobby :P) > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > she was using? > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > Jacqui > > > > > Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? > > moonmyyst Yes that is the boy Dudley beat up. Now when you say on the father's said...what do you mean by that? I just want to clarify that. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 16 17:33:08 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:33:08 -0000 Subject: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101677 Phil wrote: >> A personal thing, perhaps, but I am getting rather tired of people >> trying to spatchcock their own favourite SF-nal device (time >> travel in this instance) into the Harry Potter books no matter >> whether it makes any sense at all. vmonte responds: > No offense but many of the posts on this site are not based on > canon evidence. AND JKR inserted the possibility of time-travel into > the series, not me, or anyone else. Sorry, not what I meant. What I meant was that there is sometimes a tendency to use the time-travel device as a solution to *every* problem. How come Dumbledore knows more than anyone else? Must be a time-travelling thing. OK, so how can we spatchcock time-travel into *this* discussion? Right, let's pretend DD is actually Ron travelled back in time! Can't figure out what happened in Godric's Hollow? Must be a time-travelling thing. OK, so how can we spatchcock time-travel into *this* discussion? Right, let's pretend Harry must have travelled back in time to watch his parents getting smithereened! The annoying thing is that there's plenty of *good* discussion, but there's only so much time in the day one can devote to reading this group :-( and they get kind of drowned in the noise. > Also, there are a lot of discussions going on this site. I'm sure > you can find one that is to your liking. Several, but there are things in RL I'm supposed to be doing :-) -- Phil From Lynx412 at AOL.com Thu Jun 17 01:15:03 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:15:03 EDT Subject: O.W.L.s & grades Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101678 My DH has said that he thinks there are only two choices for Harry's OWL grades. He either passed all of them with top marks or he failed all of them abysmally. Why? Well, consider Umbridge's smirk in the DADA exam. Harry's grades will be tampered with. That's why this year they don't arrive for a month. My theory is that Harry will take Potions in his 6th year, regardless of Snape's attitude. I suspect that in the 6th book, Snape will not be Potions Master, he will finally get the DADA course, letting Harry take Potions from a new teacher and still allowing the Harry/Snape interactions. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:18:35 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617011835.42602.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101679 vmonte wrote: Maybe the order is a lot older than even that. The name of the group: The Order of the Phoenix, implies a much longer lived society. The Phoenix is a bird that lives for thousands of years and continuously dies and is reborn. I was rereading OOTP and came across the scene where Harry informs Lupin that he is no-longer taking Occlumeny lessons. Lupin tells Harry that he must go back and tell Snape that he must continue the lessons because Harry must learn it! It is the single most important thing he must accomplish (lots of paraphrasing). Through the whole series of books Harry has always been given the tools, lessons, animals, etc, that he has needed to accomplish certain goals. In PoA alone, Hagrid makes sure he is acquainted with Buckbeak. Lupin teaches him the patronus charm. Hermione is given the time-turner, which is used later. What if Harry and the kids are being singled out and trained for an as yet mentioned role? (A role in which they will continue the work of the Order?) I also think that Harry may need to learn Occlumency not to protect himself from present day Voldemort, but because he will need to go back in time and impersonate James. And yes, someone will figure out who he is because of his eyes... Just to throw some thoughts out... Has the Order been around since the original founders of Hogwarts broke up? Did Salazar mess with the time-line? Has Voldemort somehow created a larger rift in time? Are the Order protectors of time? vivian Time. That is the reaccuring theme in all of the books. Time. Each book deals with a different aspect of time. You may be on to something here. It would make sense. moonmyyst (who needs a bubble bath to ponder this one!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:18:49 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:18:49 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at A... wrote: > My DH has said that he thinks there are only two choices for Harry's > OWL grades. He either passed all of them with top marks or he failed all of > them abysmally. Why? Well, consider Umbridge's smirk in the DADA exam. Harry's > grades will be tampered with. That's why this year they don't arrive for a > month. > > My theory is that Harry will take Potions in his 6th year, regardless > of Snape's attitude. I suspect that in the 6th book, Snape will not be Potions > Master, he will finally get the DADA course, letting Harry take Potions from > a new teacher and still allowing the Harry/Snape interactions. > > The Other Cheryl I dont think the grades will be tampered with at all, especially not by Umbridge. I think that with V back there are alot more importnat things on the Ministries mind IMHO than Harry's grades. Jacqui From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 01:20:24 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:20:24 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: <40D178BE.16294.6BD67E@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101681 Shaun H. originally wrote: > > > Is Snape as good a teacher as McGonnagal? No. But is Snape-the- > > > Cruel more effective than Snape-the-Kind would be? I think > > > that is very possible. SSSusan replied: > > What about Snape-the-Neutral?? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) > > > > It *would* be a possibility, though, you know, assuming a > > spectrum rather than an either-or. Could our Snapey manage > > neutrality or is that beyond him (beneath him?)? More likely, I > > think, he wouldn't be interested in it...and it certainly > > wouldn't promote his image w/ the DEs. Shaun again: > You're right, that is certainly another possibility - it doesn't > have to black or white, there is room for grey. > > But I think you're right that he wouldn't be interested... why? In > my opinion, because I think Snape does the world in a pretty black > and white way. I think Snape would regard the grey as... well, > reminiscent of a certain pair of underwear - a neglected area > lacking effort, lacking any real sense of purpose. I don't think > Snape is particularly interested in what he would see as half > measures. SSSusan: TEE HEE. Good one! Shaun: > The kids aren't going to like Snape just because he (for > example) lays off Neville. SSSusan: Actually, I think they *would* like him if he laid off Neville. Might take them awhile to trust it was a permanent change, but if they saw that it was, I think they would begin to (almost) like/trust him. 'Course, it's still not gonna happen. ;-) Shaun: > Snape-the-Cruel would find Snape-the-Neutral even more repulsive > than Snape-the-Kind. SSSusan: An interesting thought. You may well be right. Siriusly Snapey Susan From kizzanna05 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 22:56:51 2004 From: kizzanna05 at yahoo.com (shawna murphy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape vs. RW (was: Harry) (was: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616225651.55300.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101682 Potioncat: > I don't know what DD was thinking. > He took a young man, rumored at 11 to be up to his eyes in > dark arts, who has the social skills of a rattlesnake, and was/is > a member of the Death Eaters and gave him a job TEACHING > children? Pippin: > all those who are willing to oppose LV must be united. That > includes people who study the Dark Arts, have the social skills of > a rattlesnake and initially found the Death Eaters attractive. If > you are willing to risk your own safety to protect innocent lives, > then Dumbledore wants you on his side, even if your politics and > his don't agree. Kizzanna: I have been getting the feeling for a while now that Snape is a spy working on DD side, you know the light side, and that would explain why DD seems to trust him so much, didn't he also mention in OoP that Snape had a very dangerous job, I don't have my book, so I can't look up the exact wording. But that would also explain why Snape is a DE, and why he is so advanced in legilimancy. He has had to lie to LV on many occasions, at least that is my theory. From ekrbdg at msn.com Thu Jun 17 01:27:59 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:27:59 -0400 Subject: Mark Evans was Re: Off the wall character question References: Message-ID: <099601c4540a$54a62fc0$72e6f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 101683 > > > > > > Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 > years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. > Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I > wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be > considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? > > > > moonmyyst > > > Yes that is the boy Dudley beat up. Now when you say on the > father's said...what do you mean by that? I just want to clarify > that. > *Kimberly's comment* If he's an Evans (which he is) and he's related to Lily and Petunia, then it would be on her side, not the Father's side. There has been speculation that he's at the perfect age to enter Hogwarts next year and that he wasn't in the canon for just any old reason. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/11/2004 From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:26:28 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617012628.54558.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101684 Phil wrote: >> A personal thing, perhaps, but I am getting rather tired of people trying to spatchcock their own favourite SF-nal device (time travel in this instance) into the Harry Potter books no matter whether it makes any sense at all. What I meant was that there is sometimes a tendency to use the time-travel device as a solution to *every* problem. How come Dumbledore knows more than anyone else? Must be a time-travelling thing. OK, so how can we spatchcock time-travel into *this* discussion? Right, let's pretend DD is actually Ron travelled back in time! Can't figure out what happened in Godric's Hollow? Must be a time-travelling thing. OK, so how can we spatchcock time-travel into *this* discussion? Right, let's pretend Harry must have travelled back in time to watch his parents getting smithereened! The annoying thing is that there's plenty of *good* discussion, but there's only so much time in the day one can devote to reading this group :-( and they get kind of drowned in the noise. Several, but there are things in RL I'm supposed to be doing :-) -- Phil Well, Phil, the thing is, several of us have seen that time plays a major role in these books. In fact, it seems to be one of the only things that remains constant in each. Each book contains an aspect of time. Also, JKR has a habit of taking something from one book and re-using it in another. If you take each of these CANON ideas and combine them, then we are just projecting on and using our interpretations of foreshadowing. I hate to put it this way, but if you are uncomfortable with the use of time, then you are going to have quite a time with the last two books!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 23:05:34 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:05:34 -0000 Subject: Movie hints or crazy thoughts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101685 Romulus Lupin wrote: > At the end of the first movie, after leaving Quirrel's body, > Vapormort "walks" through Harry before disappearing (which doesn't > happen in the book, as we all know). Is this foreshadowing the MOM > possession in OOP? (Or maybe JKR loved the scene so much she wanted > to include it in the books somehow?) Is it a hint of how the story's > going to end? (Maybe in the end LV will possess Harry again and > he'll jump through the veil?) That's absolute genius! I've always had the theory that Harry will die by the end of the 7th book - Harry and LV always just seem too interconnected to me to destroy one without the other - and that just might be the best way to do it. If LV should possess Harry at the end of the 7th then it'd be the perfect opportunity for Harry to end the battle victoriously and nobley (sacrifcing himself for the good of the world - wizard and Muggle alike. I seriously (Siriusly) think you might be onto something. (P.S. I noticed the Love Actually thing too, thought it was hysterical.) Tooks (cause it's the closest thing I could get to Tonks) From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:32:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:32:56 -0000 Subject: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101687 Phil wrote: The annoying thing is that there's plenty of *good* discussion, but there's only so much time in the day one can devote to reading this group :-( and they get kind of drowned in the noise. vmonte responds: I agree that many posts get drowned in the "noise" as you say. So why waste your time posting to them, I sure don't. vmonte From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:34:22 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617013422.55871.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101688 Jacqui wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Jacqui wrote: > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another > hobby :P) > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > she was using? > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > Jacqui > > > > > Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? > > moonmyyst Yes that is the boy Dudley beat up. Now when you say on the father's said...what do you mean by that? I just want to clarify that. Well, Lily and Petunia Evans. Provided that their parents were married, then the father would have given the name. Suppose the grandfather had more than one son. That would make this a 3rd cousin or so. We do not know that much about the Evans family, just that Petunia is the last of Harry's mother's family. This is for the blood spell. Just how far back would that have to go? Here in the south, I can say that I am related to almost every person in our county that has lived here for over 20 years. (county grew in the last 20 years) Some of those links are "my third cousin is married to your 4th cousin" or "my great aunt is married to your brother-in-laws uncle". This could be a kin that is just far enough to not be considered "immediate family". With Petunia distancing herself from anything "non-Dursley", Dudley may be related to the kid and not know or care. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:38:18 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:38:18 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: <20040617013422.55871.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Jacqui wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > > > Jacqui wrote: > > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need > another > > hobby :P) > > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > > she was using? > > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > > Jacqui > > > > > > > > > > Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 > years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. > Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I > wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be > considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? > > > > moonmyyst > > > Yes that is the boy Dudley beat up. Now when you say on the > father's said...what do you mean by that? I just want to clarify > that. > > > Well, Lily and Petunia Evans. Provided that their parents were married, then the father would have given the name. Suppose the grandfather had more than one son. That would make this a 3rd cousin or so. We do not know that much about the Evans family, just that Petunia is the last of Harry's mother's family. This is for the blood spell. Just how far back would that have to go? Here in the south, I can say that I am related to almost every person in our county that has lived here for over 20 years. (county grew in the last 20 years) Some of those links are "my third cousin is married to your 4th cousin" or "my great aunt is married to your brother-in- laws uncle". This could be a kin that is just far enough to not be considered "immediate family". With Petunia distancing herself from anything "non-Dursley", Dudley may be related to the kid and not know or care. > > moonmyyst > > Ok, that is what I thought you mant by on her fathers side I just wanted to make sure. I would think that if there is Magic in the family, it is quite possible to skip generations. From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu Jun 17 01:40:16 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:40:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: <20040617010914.23111.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101690 moonmyyst said: Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. Interesting age. Would this be a cousin on the father's side? I wonder how distantly related one would have to be to still be considered part of the blood spell? Immediate family? 3rd cousin?? Lady Macbeth replied: Yes and yes for the first two questions. :) Cousin on his mother's father's side - Lily's maiden name was Evans, so that was HER father's name. It depends on how closely this particular society ties genetics and decendancy to blood. Thus far, "pureblood" families have been distinguished largely by name (surname). The wizarding world is clearly patrilineal - the father is the mode of inheritance and descent. This is seen (and shown the importance of) in the Black family tree. When Andromeda, Bellatrix and Narcissa married, they were no longer Blacks - they belonged in their husbands' lineages. Bellatrix and Narcissa married into pureblood families and thus were acceptable as being related to the Black family as well - Andromeda did not, and therefore was not. IF this Evans boy were a relation to Lily, he would not be in Harry's family line, as that is the Potter line. Mark Evans would belong to an Evans line that ran through a son - probably an uncle of Lily's (her father's brother), since there is no reference to Lily and Petunia having any other siblings. The connection in that case to Harry would be through Lily's grandfather, which would technically make them "blood" relatives, but would put them in two separate family lines. If the protection spell truly did go by "blood", it may well involve Mark. If it goes by "blood" in the sense of lineage, however, it would not. AND, if you want to be MORE complicated, it would depend on what family structure the wizarding world goes by. We know that they marry cousins, otherwise the pureblood families wouldn't all be related. However, marriage traditions vary from culture to culture. In some, cross cousins are marriageable partners, while parallel cousins are not. In others, the reverse is true. In some cultures, no one from Father's direct line is marriageable, but anyone from Mother's is, &etc. MY guess, however, is that Mark Evans was not just a "throw away" character, that he IS related, and that "blood" refers to genetics, throwing a nice pipe-wrench into Dumbledore's carefully-laid plan involving keeping Harry protected. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! Better than YahooPlus, Hotmail, or Gmail! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Wed Jun 16 23:54:25 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:54:25 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101691 Alla: > It does not matter to me. To me there is NO good reason for which > person could be tormented. Snape wants to prepare Neville for real > life difficulties? How about talking to his other teachers and > find out HOW you can prepare him in a way it works best for the > boy, not for the Snape sadistic nature. > snip. Lady Macbeth: > An effective teacher doesn't just teach them something that any of > them could learn by reading a book, he (or she) teaches them how > to be a mature and capable person in the world they're going to be > living in as an adult. Alla: > Sorry, I don't believe that that is what Snape does. I absolutely agree with Alla (Hi Alla, yes I am THAT Dzeytoun). There is no excuse or justification for Snape's behavior, no way, no how, in no world. He is not justified by his past, he is not justified by his mission, he is not justified by being a teacher. He is inept, abusive, stupid, petty, shallow, cruel, and I certainly hope headed for a humiliating, painful, and well-deserved death. Shaun has compared Snape with a horrible maths teacher. Shaun, I am extremely glad for you that you found those teaching methods effective. A similar teacher, however, put me in intensive therapy which cost me several years and many thousands of dollars. As I have said before, up until OOTP I would not have minded, as the story was told in terms of a fairy tale. However, as the story takes a more realistic turn JKR's failure to deal more realistically with abuse and its effects cause me to lose an enormous amount of respect for her as a writer. Dzeytoun From kaisenji at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:25:20 2004 From: kaisenji at yahoo.com (Kaisenji) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:25:20 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101692 Lynx412 at A... wrote: > Well, consider Umbridge's smirk in the DADA exam. Harry's grades > will be tampered with. That's why this year they don't arrive for > a month. ----------------- Kai here: I'm rereading OotP (sadly for the second time) and that stood out with me as well. And while I would agree with the grade tampering, don't forget that the little troll got attacked by centaurs and we weren't clued in if wether or not she will be well enough to return as the secretary. Also, if she put in a note to have Harry's grades messed with, whom is going to do it? Percy, perhaps? Do you think he would stoop low enough to ensure Harry never becomes an auror just because Umbridge said so? What about Fudge; how's he play in on that? Is he even going to be shown Harry's O.W.L.S. since Umbridge sent a note forward in Harry's career? Interesting... Kai *hoping the centaurs had LOADS of fun with Umbridge* From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:47:18 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:47:18 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: <20040617002908.42781.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101693 snips of original posts: > Add another vote to that!! Yes, there are some British things (in the US books) that we have to look up (and then go..DUH!!) but that only makes people want to find out more. Especially my kids. We will run across things and I will send them to look it up. JKR would be pleased (I hope) that her books are used to close the gaps around the world. Kids are finding out about other kids and that is a good thing (and if we grownups learn a few things too... great!!). I would love to have all of the series in the British version and I am working on it on e-bay. (keep getting out-bid). > > moonmyyst I actually don't mind the Americanized versions. I like the covers and the chapter pictures, and though I don't mind looking up words and phrases I don't understand, it took me weeks to figure out what the heck "Bungy the waterskiing Budgerier" was (from chapter 1, OotP), and why it would be on the news, and I am still not sure I've got it right (it's a little parakeet or something, right?). I am still a bit confused about spotted dick, too. Anyway, most of the British words don't pose much of a problem, I really love them, but explanations of a couple of the more difficult ones would be nice. And I probably will someday read the Brit ones, too. Meri - who would have been firmly and utterly revolted had Steven Spielberg directed the HP movies and let (urgh!) Haley Joel Osment play Harry. THE HORROR!!!!! From mpvillas at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 00:07:28 2004 From: mpvillas at yahoo.co.uk (wisteria053) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:07:28 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101694 Alla "dumbledore11214" wrote: snip I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that different at all. "Jason" wrote: snip I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. snip As an American living in London these past 15 years, I understood that the first book had many more amendments than the later ones. I think the books are British, so leave them that way. "wisteria053" From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 01:57:24 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:57:24 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101695 When I first heard this I thought it was an honest mistake...but I found this in an interview with JKR: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!) Interesting... Jacqui From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:02:44 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:02:44 -0000 Subject: James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101696 So, my question is...why was he always playing with the seeker??? From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:16:17 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617021617.55280.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101697 Jacqui wrote: So, my question is...why was he always playing with the seeker??? ??? Playing with the seeker? Was a chaser??? James was a seeker, like Harry (and Charley Weasley, Cho Chang, Draco Malfoy, and Cedric Diggory). He was always playing with a golden snitch. moonmyyst (but then, if he was a chaser and Lily was a seeker.... I guess you could say he was playing with a seeker ) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:16:09 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:16:09 -0000 Subject: SS Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101698 I am going to apologize for having way too much time on my hands at the moment :P I was reading another interview and found this: My mother passed way nine years ago, and her death greatly influenced a passage in Book 1. And I'm sure careful readers don't need to be told what passage that is. My father is still alive, and he really likes the books, and my sister, to whom the first book is dedicated in part, was the first person ever to hear the story. She didn't read it, but I told it to her. Does anyone happen to know what passage she is talking about off hand? Jacqui From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu Jun 17 02:18:17 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:18:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101699 James was listed in the trophy case in the first movie as playing Seeker - him playing with the Golden Snitch may have been a nod to the movie producers on Jo's part. Also, there's no reason that a person couldn't switch positions on a Quidditch team (there's suggestion in OotP that Ginny's going to do it - going from Seeker to Chaser [Like James? Possibly] in book 6). Also, knowing James's attitude at the time, he may have just nicked it for the hell of it and to show off to girls. :S -Lady Macbeth ______________________________________________ Lady Macbeth's Realm: http://www.ladymacbethsrealm.us/ Owner of Yahoo!Groups: 0-DBZ-Fanfiction, professorsnapefans Moderator of Yahoo!Groups: dbzlovenest, saiyanslash -----Original Message----- From: Jacqui [mailto:jasonjacqui at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:03 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] James was a Chaser So, my question is...why was he always playing with the seeker??? No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! Better than YahooPlus, Hotmail, or Gmail! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:19:22 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:19:22 -0000 Subject: James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: <20040617021617.55280.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101700 Snitch is what I meant :P But, no James was a chaser....JKR said it herself: What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? James was Chaser. Jacqui From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 02:22:06 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:22:06 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D18CEE.7651.BAB5DA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101701 On 16 Jun 2004 at 23:54, dzeytoun wrote: > Shaun has compared Snape with a horrible maths teacher. Shaun, I am > extremely glad for you that you found those teaching methods > effective. A similar teacher, however, put me in intensive therapy > which cost me several years and many thousands of dollars. Well, just for the record seeing you've brought this up, let me reinsert some information that I took out of my previous post because I thought it bordered on too much information at the time. Let me just tell you what effect the school I've mentioned previously - the school which I described as: "I spent time in a school where everything was sweetness and light, where teachers spent all of their time trying to make learning happy and passionate for their students." Let me just put on record what a single year in that school did to me. It turned me into a clinical depressive who had bouts of absolute crippling and deep depression at times for the following decade - bouts that were only brought under control eventually by medication that it looks like I will have to take for the rest of my life. In the short term - at the time - it left me absolutely suicidal with constant thoughts of not just killing myself, but detailed plans to kill others because I couldn't see any other way of escaping the school situation I was in. I lost all ability to trust adults, and other children, I lost all interest in learning and I had always an incredible lust for learning. I stopped reading. I stopped writing. I spent 95% of my time trying to hide from other people. I didn't have to pay for my own therapy - my parents did that - so I don't know the exact cost. I do know it was about $90 an hour, weekly for two years - and that's in 1987-1990 terms - let's say $10,000 or so. That's what was done to me by a school that was in many ways absolutely wonderful for many children. Why didn't I kill myself? Why did I survive and eventually recover? Just for the record, it was because I wound up in the school which had the Snape like teachers. Just for the record... I'm not sure whether I should mention this or not really but I'll hope for the list elves indulgence on this point, because I think my experiences are relevant to a lot of my posts, I hope that my contributions to this list are relevant enough to let me outline a bit of where I am coming from. In the first half of next year, a book will be published in the United States that is intended to help parents, teachers, and psychologists etc, deal with certain children's problems. I wrote a chapter of that book - my educational experiences are considered relevant to a large enough group of children and adolescents and to their educational experience, that they are going to be part of this publication. I mention this fact, because I don't want to leave the impression that I am unique. I'm not - my experiences are *not* that uncommon. I am genuinely and extremely sorry for the fact that you were harmed by a teacher. I really am - because I was as well - on numerous occasions. But really the point I'm trying to make here is that in virtually every case, a teacher or a specific method of teaching may be *great* for some kids - and *hideous* for others. Just because people had bad experiences with Snape like teachers in their own past, isn't a reason to condemn those methods. I had a teacher when I was 13 - and incidentally this was at the school I *liked* who - well, frankly, I hated her classes, I hated her methods, they were just totally wrong for me. A few years ago, she won one of Australia's top awards for teaching - and deservedly so. Her methods didn't do anything for me - in fact, I'm extremely glad that I only had to put up with one class with her for one year, because I *hated* her classes - but that doesn't make them bad methods. I was helped by teaching methods and teachers that other people say would have hurt them terribly, or did hurt them terribly. I understand that. But I was also harmed by teaching methods and teachers that other people say they would have loved to experience, or did experience and they thought were great. I hope people can understand that as well. > As I have said before, up until OOTP I would not have minded, as the > story was told in terms of a fairy tale. However, as the story takes > a more realistic turn JKR's failure to deal more realistically with > abuse and its effects cause me to lose an enormous amount of respect > for her as a writer. What determines what is realistic though? Are my experiences less realistic than yours? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:29:00 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:29:00 -0000 Subject: James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: <20040617021617.55280.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101702 moonmyyst: James was a seeker, like Harry (and Charley Weasley, Cho Chang, Draco Malfoy, and Cedric Diggory). He was always playing with a golden snitch. Justine responds: True, he was playing with a Golden Snitch, but there is no canon that said he was always playing with one. Also, JKR said herself, in a Scholastic online chat in October 2000, that James was a Chaser. The idea that James was a Seeker, I think, is movie contamination. Justine From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 17 02:30:37 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:30:37 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101703 "djrfdh" wrote: > I thought Filch was a "failed" wizard, which would imply that perhaps > he was a student at one time at Hogwarts, but failed to make the > grade...unlike Hagrid who was ousted for being falsely accused of > killing Moaning Myrtle. > >Potioncat: In CoS Filch announces that he is a Squib. He's upset that Harry found out. As it was, Harry hadn't, but once Filch started yelling about it, he did. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 02:39:32 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:39:32 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40D18CEE.7651.BAB5DA@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: snip. > Just for the record, it was because I wound up in the school which > had the Snape like teachers. > Shawn, I believe that I already told you once how sorry I am for what you went through in your childhood and I am saying it again, but I want clarification on a couple of issues. Are you saying that teachers with "non-Snape" teaching methods harmed you or the abuse of your peers did? Because if you were harmed that badly by your class mates, it really does not have anything to do with the teachers. Only that they were incapable of stopping the abuse. If on the other hand you were harmed directly by the teachers that will be adifferent story. > snip. > Shaun: > I mention this fact, because I don't want to leave the impression > that I am unique. I'm not - my experiences are *not* that uncommon. > > I am genuinely and extremely sorry for the fact that you were > harmed by a teacher. I really am - because I was as well - on > numerous occasions. > > But really the point I'm trying to make here is that in virtually > every case, a teacher or a specific method of teaching may be > *great* for some kids - and *hideous* for others. > > Just because people had bad experiences with Snape like teachers in > their own past, isn't a reason to condemn those methods. I had a > teacher when I was 13 - and incidentally this was at the school I > *liked* who - well, frankly, I hated her classes, I hated her > methods, they were just totally wrong for me. > > A few years ago, she won one of Australia's top awards for teaching > - and deservedly so. Her methods didn't do anything for me - in > fact, I'm extremely glad that I only had to put up with one class > with her for one year, because I *hated* her classes - but that > doesn't make them bad methods. Alla: I disagree , Shaun and I am sorry, but I do find your experiences to be unique. I believe that yes , there are many different teaching methods, but Snape's method will not work for the vast majority of children and yes, I do condemn them. No, never in my past I dealt with teacher like Snape. Honestly, I did not. That is why his methods are so horrifying to me. Because all my teachers- in school and college (in Ukraine) and even in law school here in the United States never came close to what Snape does. snip. Alla From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 17 02:42:56 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:42:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] James was a Chaser Message-ID: <1e6.22fb8d10.2e025f30@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101705 In a message dated 6/16/2004 10:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com writes: James was a seeker, like Harry (and Charley Weasley, Cho Chang, Draco Malfoy, and Cedric Diggory). He was always playing with a golden snitch. ============ Sherrie here: Not according to JKR - she specifically stated in the 16 Oct 2000 Scholastic.com interview that James was a CHASER: The Seeker claim is movie contamination. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu Jun 17 02:51:20 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:51:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40D18CEE.7651.BAB5DA@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101706 Shaun wrote: I mention this fact, because I don't want to leave the impression that I am unique. I'm not - my experiences are *not* that uncommon. I am genuinely and extremely sorry for the fact that you were harmed by a teacher. I really am - because I was as well - on numerous occasions. But really the point I'm trying to make here is that in virtually every case, a teacher or a specific method of teaching may be *great* for some kids - and *hideous* for others. Lady Macbeth replied: Thank you, Shaun. NO, you are not unique, by any stretch of the imagination. I *still* suffer from depression, something that I'm fighting an uphill battle against. What really and truly got me out of my hole of self-hating and anti-everyone tendencies was that my parents would have given Snape a run for his money. My friends referred to my mother as "The Drill Instructor" (military boot camp type) and she scared children who'd never even MET her before into obeying her. One kid in my brother's class visibly shook and almost fell over obeying my mom because she'd yelled at him to tie his shoes. She didn't know who he was (and still doesn't to this day) and he didn't know her from Eve - but she hated children who ran around with their shoes untied. (Among other things.) And that's more or less what I was trying to get across - I've had good teachers and bad teachers, and some have left striking marks on my psyche to this day. Some of those same teachers were regarded in just the opposite light by many of my peers. However, very few institutions (Hogwarts included) have the manpower and/or finances to cater to EVERY child's needs - they need to try to balance things among what staff they have. Thus some seem overly harsh, like Snape, while some seem overly "motherly" like Sprout, and some fall somewhere in the middle where they're not remarked upon at all. (Binns isn't mean to his students, after all - pbth, he doesn't notice when they fall asleep in his class. But what are any of them getting out of his classes? Hermione got her history knowledge well before she ever started her first class.) Shaun wrote: What determines what is realistic though? Are my experiences less realistic than yours? Lady Macbeth replied: EXACTLY. All experiences are unique, and when we deal with "realistic" it comes down to what is "realistic" for that person. I thought that Harry was dealing with the abuse set on him in OotP in a VERY realistic way - many teenage boys (and girls) internalize abuse and NEVER speak of it, even to their peers. It festers in their mind and sets chains of events years down the road, not in the days and months that it's immediately happening in. Instead, that time is consumed with anger toward others, feelings of frustration, inadequacy, tension, stress and at some point an outburst - the behavior that was triggered by UMBRIDGE, not Snape. That's where, IMHO, Jo is making a "realistic" approach to separating true abuse from an overly critical teacher. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop (IMAP or POP3), from the web, or with your cell phone! Better than YahooPlus, Hotmail, or Gmail! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 03:00:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:00:41 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" < > However, very few institutions (Hogwarts included) have the manpower and/or > finances to cater to EVERY child's needs - they need to try to balance > things among what staff they have. Thus some seem overly harsh, like Snape, > while some seem overly "motherly" like Sprout, and some fall somewhere in > the middle where they're not remarked upon at all. (Binns isn't mean to his > students, after all - pbth, he doesn't notice when they fall asleep in his > class. But what are any of them getting out of his classes? Hermione got > her history knowledge well before she ever started her first class.) > Alla: We keep talking about this overly harsh atmosphere in Hogwarts, but as far as we know there is NO other teacher there behaving like Snape. Sure, atmosphere outside Hogwarts is tough, but really, what are the examples of really harsh classes "unfairness-wise?" From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 03:03:34 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:03:34 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: References: <40D18CEE.7651.BAB5DA@localhost> Message-ID: <40D196A6.6420.E0AE7B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101708 On 17 Jun 2004 at 2:39, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Shawn, I believe that I already told you once how sorry I am for what > you went through in your childhood and I am saying it again, but I > want clarification on a couple of issues. > > Are you saying that teachers with "non-Snape" teaching methods harmed > you or the abuse of your peers did? Both. Because they were very much tied up together unfortunately Either of them by themselves I probably could have dealt with - it was when they were combined that they became incredibly hellish. > Because if you were harmed that badly by your class mates, it really > does not have anything to do with the teachers. Well, it does - but that is a separate issue. It has to do with my teachers because those teachers stood by and let the abuse from my fellow students happen. But their decision to do that, only has a very tenuous connection to their teaching methodology. Part of the problem was really one teacher. If I hadn't had her, things probably wouldn't have been as bad. Unfortunately though, she was my home room teacher - in other words, the person who should have been most responsible for protecting me - and she also taught me... three of the seven core subjects I did that year - so I had more exposure to her teaching methods than anyone elses. She wasn't a bad teacher - just not right for me - and she *genuinely* cared about me - I know for a fact that in a conversation with my mother, she broke down in tears because I was hurting so much and she could see that, but she couldn't figure out anyway to deal with my pain. She wasn't indifferent, she wasn't a bad teacher for other people in the class. She just wasn't capable of seeing beyond the methods she normally used with success. I *hate* what happened to me. I *hate* what she wound up doing to me. But I won't condemn her because she got it wrong in my case - because she got it right in so many others. Same with Snape - I can't stand to see a teacher condemned because people wouldn't have found his methods personally effective. > Only that they were incapable of stopping the abuse. If on the other > hand you were harmed directly by the teachers that will be adifferent > story. They weren't *incapable* of stopping the abuse - they chose not to. That is totally distinct from their classroom practice though - different issue entirely. In the classroom, they did harm me - horribly. > Alla: > > I disagree , Shaun and I am sorry, but I do find your experiences to > be unique. I wish they were - but they're not. I met two kids yesterday through my mentoring work who are currently having basically the same experiences - yesterday was a special day - but I probably encounter six a year personally, and hear of literally dozens more. > No, never in my past I dealt with teacher like Snape. Honestly, I did > not. That is why his methods are so horrifying to me. Ah - but if you never personally dealt with one, how can you truly judge his methods? (-8 Being serious - I know they can work because I experienced similar and they did. I wouldn't know they worked without that experience. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From AntaresTCH at aol.com Wed Jun 16 08:40:47 2004 From: AntaresTCH at aol.com (AntaresTCH at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:40:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA film Message-ID: <110.3358a088.2e01618f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101709 I noticed several threads in the movie that may have made JK Rowling's hair on the back of her neck stand up, if these are the things that she is leading to: * Sirius says, "The ones that love us never really leave us. You can always find them in here." (Touching his chest. *Sirius to hermoine,"You really are the brightest witch of your age." *Harry saw Sirius in the crystal ball. Cheryl H. "You must choose, but choose wisely." The Ancient Knight of the Templar, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. "You will have to make a choice." Morpheus and the Oracle to Neo, The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded. "It is our choices that show who we are far more than our abilities." Albus Dumbledore. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 03:10:53 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:10:53 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" < snip > Shaun previously: > > The kids aren't going to like Snape just because he (for > > example) lays off Neville. > > SSSusan: > Actually, I think they *would* like him if he laid off Neville. > Might take them awhile to trust it was a permanent change, but if > they saw that it was, I think they would begin to (almost) > like/trust him. 'Course, it's still not gonna happen. ;-) Alla: LOL, Susan! I agree with you, I think kids WOULD like if Snape would lay off Neville. (HA! In my dreams. :o)) Seriously, though, it will be a start. It will show that Snape can grow and change as a human being. Really, one of the reasons why I am so fed up with Snape's nursing his old grudges after OoP is because his character started to be come static. No change at all. I wanted to applaud Snape, when at the end of GoF he showed his Mark to Fudge. Futile gesture? Maybe, but so courageous (true Gryffindor ":o)) and supportive of Harry, who just went through hell. I thought that would be a start of new beginnings for Snape and Harry and Sirius ( No, not the beginning of the beatiful friendship :o), but just new beginning) And here we are in OoP, back to square 1. Grrrrrr. Alla From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 02:13:55 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:13:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c45410$be145530$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101711 Jacqui wrote: So, my question is...why was he always playing with the seeker??? Trevor writes: He is always playing with the Snitch because he thinks it is cool to do so. It is more difficult and less cool to play with a Quaffle and a Budger is flat dangerous :-). Sirius' reaction when reminded by Harry typifies the reaction of a grown up remembering dumb "cool" behaviors of youth. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 03:18:45 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:18:45 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101712 Jacqui wrote: > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another > hobby :P) > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > she was using? > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > Jacqui Eustace_Scrubb: If JKR named Mark Evans by accident, she's since realized that there are a lot of people interested in him. On www.jkrowling.com, if you go to the FAQ and then to the subsection FAQ Poll, you can express a preference for which of three questions JKR should answer next. One of them (and the one I voted for) is: "What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" So far this question is leading with 46% of the vote. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 03:19:44 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:19:44 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House: DE's and others In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > imamommy > > who wonders if the sorting hat shouldn't have chucked Percy > Weasley in > > Slytherin > > > Potioncat: > Yes, he'd be a good Slytherin (that could have two meanings) imamommy again: I've been rereading PoA (yes, again, don't give me that look!), and I predict that Percy will become a Death Eater. I really think he's most interested in attaching himself to power, and if Voldy's got the power, then I think Percy will be easy to seduce. Percy's bound to suffer professionally as a result of Fudge's mistakes, and he's on shaky ground after working for Crouch anyway. Unless Arthur does become MoM, I can't see them keeping him around. He's going to be very desperate if he gets canned, and I think he would be an easy mark for someone trying to recruit followers for VM. imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 03:20:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:20:41 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: <40D196A6.6420.E0AE7B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: snip > Same with Snape - I can't stand to see a teacher condemned because > people wouldn't have found his methods personally effective. > OK, let me try again. :o) I don't believe that even if child will learn something from teacher like Snape , it is worth it. The emotional scars which such learning often leaves is not worth it. If teacher is uncapable or chooses not to stop the abuse, i will not let my kid to step a foot in such school , BUT I will also raise hell if the teacher himself uses abusive methods. Again, I am happy that such methods worked for you. Judging by your posts you seem to be a very compassionate person, but I stand by my opinion that for the vast majority of children such methods do not work. I will be happy to change my opinions about Snape mmethods, but I don't have canon to do so yet. Do we even know as someone asked earlier that all Snape students pass the OWLS? Do we even know that he is effective as a teacher, at least grade wise? Alla Alla From deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 02:18:06 2004 From: deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net (lilysphoenix) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:18:06 -0000 Subject: James was a Chaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > So, my question is...why was he always playing with the seeker??? That's a really good question. I know that they changed him to a seeker for the movie, CoS, but in the book he was a chaser. In OoP, he was playing with the Snitch. I wonder if it was a mistake on JKR's part? From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 03:41:42 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:41:42 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at A... wrote: > My DH has said that he thinks there are only two choices for Harry's > OWL grades. He either passed all of them with top marks or he failed all of > them abysmally. Why? Well, consider Umbridge's smirk in the DADA exam. Harry's > grades will be tampered with. That's why this year they don't arrive for a > month. imamommy: I don't think they can be tampered with. The impression I got was that those administering the tests operate as a separate body from the school or the government. I think it's one of those things even the MoM himself would not have access to. I think it takes a month because that's what OWLS take, just like taking your SAT or ACT in the states. You don't see results for weeks while everybody's tests are being scored. I predict that Harry failed History of Magic and Divination. He may not have done well at Astronomy (although I think there should have been a retest, under the circumstances), but I am confident he did well enough in Charms, CoMC and Transfiguration. No doubt he rocked DADA. I think the surprise will be that he got an Outstanding in potions, and Snape will have no choice but to accept him into his NEWT program. I can see his expression now, like he just got a mouthful of Stinksap... imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 03:45:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:45:59 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: snip. > I predict that Harry failed History of Magic and Divination. He may > not have done well at Astronomy (although I think there should have > been a retest, under the circumstances), but I am confident he did > well enough in Charms, CoMC and Transfiguration. No doubt he rocked > DADA. I think the surprise will be that he got an Outstanding in > potions, and Snape will have no choice but to accept him into his NEWT > program. I can see his expression now, like he just got a mouthful of > Stinksap... > > imamommy Alla: Oh, I think we all know that Harry-Snape interaction will continue in book 6. The question is how. I believe tha two major possibilities were raised. One is what you just said that Harry will get "Outstanding" in Potions and another one a someone else said that Snape will be teaching DADA this year. Personally, I prefer yours. Anything which changes Snape's opinion of Harry is fine by me. :o) From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 03:56:37 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:56:37 -0000 Subject: The Snape-Malfoy connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > I find it strange that Lucius Malfoy got off so easily after the > first war, and with such an easy excuse either ("I was imperio'ed!" > now gimme a brake. Why didn't all the other DEs use this excuse?). > OK, so the man is rich and influential, and he gave a lot of gold to > the Ministry, but I don't think this alone would have stopped the > zealous Crouch Sr. (the man convicted his own son, after all). I believe that Lucius was following the old adage, "the best defense is a good offense". From ch. 6 of PS/SS: "They were some of the first to come back to our side after You-Know-Who disappeared. Said they'd been bewitched." And Hagrid had stated earlier that some people "came outta kinda trances." I think Lucius took the offensive and volunteered that he'd been imperio'd without waiting to be arrested when he noticed that other people were doing it. I agree that Crouch Sr. would not have been deterred from pursuing Lucius or any other suspected DE by the offer of gold. However, if Lucius Malfoy had been tried, even Crouch could not have forced a jury to convict where it was not so inclined, as we saw in Ludo Bagman's trial in the Pensieve. It was the jury (which, based on Harry's hearing, appears to have consisted of Wizengamot members) that would have been the bribery target. I also > find it strange that in CoS, DD lets Lucius off so easily after it > becomes clear Lucius was the one behind the diary plot. There wasn't > evidence against him? So what? We all know how protective DD is about > his students. Malfoy had also tried to remove DD from the headmaster > position and almost succeeded. You'd think DD would have put some > really nasty and untraceable jinx on him, just to teach him a good > lesson, but as far as we know he didn't. I don't think Dumbledore is the type to use jinxes to teach anyone a lesson. He seems to believe the lessons are best learned from life experience. Moreover, why would Dumbledore want to be so deliberately antagonistic to Malfoy? Better to keep a watchful eye on him, now that Dumbledore knows what he's up to. With Dumbledore's legilimency skills, he can gain useful information merely by keeping in touch. > > So, here is my idea (with apologies to all the members who brought it > up before): Snape knew Malfoy was a real DE. He had the evidence and > could have turned Malfoy in after the first war. Malfoy knew that. > But DD told Snape to lie to the Ministry and testify that Malfoy was > under the Imperio, so Malfoy would be cleared. This convinced Malfoy > that Snape is on his side. DD did it as an investment for the future > and a start for building the Snape-Malfoy connection. Interesting theory, but I doubt Lucius was tried. I also think that for Snape to lie would have been dangerous since there were probably other legilimens around who might have been able to penetrate his memories. And Snape had many opportunities to build a relationship with Malfoy which he could exploit by using his legilimency skills, without needing to lie for him. Debbie From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Thu Jun 17 03:52:30 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:52:30 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101719 OK folks, I think we've reached the point people always seem to reach when discussing Severus Snape. We've boiled down into two mutually antagonistic camps, and there's not much of a chance in all the infernal regions that anyone is going to budge. We can spit poison at each other till the end of Book VII and I don't think it's going to make the slightest change in anybody's outlook. I will confess that I myself have a totally closed mind on this point and nothing anybody says will ever convince me that Snape is not a dangerous and abusive menace who should be summarily tossed out on his greasy behind. Let's just save our blood vessels, tell ourselves quietly that we will NEVER understand how anybody with any sense could ever believe THAT, and move on. For the record, I don't think these questions will ever be settled, even in Book VII. Even if JKR reveals how SHE sees Snape, many people are likely not to agree with her. After she says, in effect, "see he really is ......" many people are going to say, "No wait a minute, no he's not." Let's try a different but related topic. Why do you think it is that so many people are reacting is such a way to so many aspects of HP? It speaks to the books themselves, of course, but frankly I don't think they are great literature in their own right, and certainly almost nothing in them is original. I think it has to do with changes in the way we approach things. I rather doubt that, had HP come out thirty years ago, this type of thing would have happened. Partly that is because the internet has made commenting and arguing easier. Partly though, I tend to follow Umbert Eco when he talks about "hyper-reality." What he said, while visiting Disney World, was that the western world has reached a state where everything, including myths and legends, has become literal. Due to the fascination with technology, the spread of rights movements, the success of communications technology, and numerous other factors, "Because I said so" or "Because it needs to be that way for the plot" just isn't good enough for a large section of the literate population. We tend to approach EVERYTHING as real and literal. We want to know all the why's and how's. HOW does the Wizarding Government work? WHY does Dumbledore let Snape act that way? WHAT do parents do if the teaching techniques at Hogwarts don't work/actively harm their child? Not too many years ago it would have been more possible to "suspend disbelief" and say that "its because it has to be that way for the plot" or "its because JKR wanted it that way." I think for a large section of the population nowadays, that just isn't good enough. I don't make an argument one way or the other about whether that's good or bad. I do think, however, it's a definite trend. And while I appreciate the discomfort and dismay of people who look at all this argument and say "It's just a book people, can't you just take it as it is?" I think that that is unlikely to happen, and it misses something important that's going on. Dzeytoun From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Thu Jun 17 04:02:10 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 04:02:10 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101720 Alla: > > Oh, I think we all know that Harry-Snape interaction will continue in > book 6. The question is how. I believe tha two major possibilities > were raised. One is what you just said that Harry will > get "Outstanding" in Potions and another one a someone else said that > Snape will be teaching DADA this year. > > > Personally, I prefer yours. Anything which changes Snape's opinion of > Harry is fine by me. :o) Actually, I see other possibilities as more likely. I doubt Harry will get an O on potions, and I think that Dumbledore's reasons for not letting Snape teach DADA are still pretty valid. I think much more likely are 1)Harry will get an E on potions and Dumbledore will order Snape to change his policy for the sake of the war effort, thus deepening Snape's hatred of Harry to new depths; or 2)Harry will get an E and Draco will also get an E. When Snape wants to make an exception and take Draco into Advanced Potions, Dumbledore will tell Snape he can only do so if he allows Harry and anyone else with an E into Advanced Potions. This could be VERY interesting because Snape would now have Draco to thank for having Harry another two years. Oh, to answer an objection in advance, yes I think Dumbledore WOULD interfere with Snape in this manner. We have what I think is pretty good indication that he intervened and forbade Snape from failing Harry after third year. We also know that changing school rules in a time of national crisis is hardly unreasonable or unheard of, at least in the Muggle world where entire curricula are often restructured in the face of national crises. Dzeytoun From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 04:38:54 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Interview. Who will die? In-Reply-To: <110.3358a088.2e01618f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040617043854.65417.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101721 The following is from the World Day interview with JKR. I was just reading through it and found these three questions rather interesting: Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school? JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... I'm not going to tell you :) gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action! Jangles: Are you going to write books about harry after school? JK Rowling replies -> Probably not, but I'll never say never because every time I do I immediately break the vow! Does anyone else read into it what I do? Or am I just hoping? moonmyyst (who loves Harry and wants to adopt him for her own!! - just like the Weasleys, one more won't hurt!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 17 04:38:50 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:38:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS Question References: Message-ID: <008501c45424$fd7c63c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101722 > I am going to apologize for having way too much time on my hands at > the moment :P > I was reading another interview and found this: > > My mother passed way nine years ago, and her death greatly > influenced a passage in Book 1. And I'm sure careful readers don't > need to be told what passage that is. My father is still alive, and > he really likes the books, and my sister, to whom the first book is > dedicated in part, was the first person ever to hear the story. She > didn't read it, but I told it to her. > > Does anyone happen to know what passage she is talking about off > hand? > > Jacqui Harry seeing his parents in the Mirror of Erised. Rowling was trying to relay to the readers the feeling of always wanting just one more minute with them and it's never enough. Alina. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 05:04:55 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:04:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... Message-ID: <141.2c3c81ed.2e028077@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101723 In a message dated 06/16/2004 1:28:01 PM Central Daylight Time, greatelderone at yahoo.com writes: > No it wasn't. He says so in PS/SS when he's on Quirrel head that > Lily didn't have to die. The fact that he was willing to spare one > of his enemies just raises a few questions imo. > Yes it was. greatelderone at yahoo.com writes: > You left out Dumbledore's part where he mentions that ***Lily&James > along with the Longbottoms managed to defy Voldemort three times at > the height of his power, which is something Harry *hasn't* even done.***? > > And I referenced a quote in OOTP, where Dumbledore specifically said that Harry was able to do what neither his parents nor Neville's were able to do: defy LV 4 times. I think Harry's accomplishments were even greater than his parents and the Longbottoms were. They were adults. Fully trained wizards. Harry is a child adn has succeeded in defeu, Harry as a school boy has managed something that 2 sets of adults hadn't been able to do. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 05:45:56 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:45:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: O.W.L.s & grades Message-ID: <1d2.23bd957b.2e028a14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101724 In a message dated 06/16/2004 10:49:25 PM Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > >I predict that Harry failed History of Magic and Divination. He may > >not have done well at Astronomy (although I think there should have > >been a retest, under the circumstances), but I am confident he did > >well enough in Charms, CoMC and Transfiguration. No doubt he rocked > >DADA. I think the surprise will be that he got an Outstanding in > >potions, and Snape will have no choice but to accept him into his > NEWT > >program. I can see his expression now, like he just got a mouthful > of > >Stinksap... > > > >imamommy > > Oh I agree. I think since the testing was done by an outsider Harry will pass it with flying colors. But I'm venturing a guess that Trelawney's tower room will not be escaped so easily. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jun 17 05:47:07 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:47:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] British V American Message-ID: <155.378745a8.2e028a5b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101725 In a message dated 6/16/04 7:22:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com writes: >That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, that I would like to do away with the American edited version all together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway.< I have both the British and the American versions of all the HP books. I have found differences. One is the description in POA of Sirius in his Animagus form. In the British version it says a black dog with pale eyes, which told me that Sirius had blue or as it turns out grey eyes. In the US version there is no description besides the black dog. I prefer the British versions because of the fact that JKR is working with the editors, I get the US versions because they are more available to me at first because I live in the US. I had to wait about a week and a half for my OOTP book from the UK and got my US version the day it came out. I told my seven year old nephew that when he is ready to read the books, I would give him the UK versions, so he told me that he couldn't read French... I told him I couldn't read French either and that the books were in English! Batchevra (who enjoys the differences in both books.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jun 17 05:57:12 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:57:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American Message-ID: <126.439e4fa9.2e028cb8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101726 In a message dated 6/16/04 7:27:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: >Alla: No, you are not the only one. I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that different at all.< I have to say that POA was different in many ways, the story line was the same, but there were glaring differences. There was one line of Sirius' in the UK version that was attributed to Lupin in the American version. It was after Lupin had given Harry, Ron and Hermione's wands back and then in the US version it had Lupin calling Ron, Boy. The US versions sometimes left out a description, changed words, and changed who spoke what. As much as I enjoy reading them, I will read the UK versions more than the US versions. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkthirty at shaw.ca Thu Jun 17 06:20:14 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:20:14 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Anodyne Assault Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101727 At some point, reading Rowling, not always closely, but with a level of passion that belies any remonstrations the serious reader of her work might make about the books being simply "good" or "well written," becomes the desperate act of people who have been cast adrift from the apparent significance of what could be called their own social, political, cultural institutions or constructions. Indeed, people who have lost the ability to maintain a static, inane gaze through the constellations of sense and of meaning that characterize the contemporary mainstream seem to be drawn to her work. Not just drawn to reading her works over and over, but to expounding upon them fanatically, becoming "involved" in the richly interpretive meanings that squirt from her Harry Potter novels like stinksap, if you start poking around in them a bit. It's not, I think, the lack of character description that makes her books ambiguous for those who read them with more than a casual critique, nor is it merely a plot device, but rather, it is her level of comfort with ambiguity. Possibly, this comfort with the unspoken, with the enigmatic, arises from the fact that the story, according to her, is, in its essentials, long finished. She knows where its going, if not what it will mean. It is also, though, a gentle, non-judgemental, contrived but still easy touch with her characters. >From so-called "reality" TV (a contradiction in terms that apparently has cachet because it's a contradiction) to the lingering, persistent, mostly unspoken belief in so-called objectivity (as clearly witnessed in the silly criticism directed at documentary film-maker Michael Moore, who's most striking merit, that he was honest enough to admit he was partisan, became the sin of not being objective, according to mainstream critics, particularly from networks for whom such an admission as Moore made would not only be true, but entirely unthinkable), the world in which Rowling's project intrudes is long past prevarication. It is quite possibly a world where the vocabulary to even speak of prevarication at all no longer obtains. When is a contradiction not a contradiction? When there are no words to describe what is not. Rowling does what she does by positioning, within that magical world of Potter, all the meanings we so readily identify, not just on the evening news (which doesn't, in fact, change every day, in some very significant ways), but in the very quotidian exchanges in which signifiers of power and persistence spread among us, a kind of viral common sense. While Minister for Magic Fudge becomes every politician who fudges this way or that with policies, he is also the agent of every judgment made from positions of power, which are most often, but not always, judgments from ignorance. The immovable in Fudge, the intransigent denial in the face of evidence, will stand for implacable law. And this law, which comprises a significant part of our social identity, though often, I admit, negatively, is then a kind of fudging itself, a kind of hedging. It doesn't really matter if the current policy is hedged slightly in our favour or slightly out of it. We dwell, Rowling seems to say, in a thick, sticky social substance with the consistency of soft confections. Here we have one subversion in which, apparently, Rowling rollicks. Where a standard reading sees Defense Against the Dark Arts as a stay against chaos, against anarchy (even if, by some accident or coincidence it works out to in fact be the opposite), at least officially, the adult reading of Rowling sees DADA for what it is: a recognition of the significance of facing, and embracing, the abrupt, the convulsive, the anarchically sudden, very much like the historic DADA movement in art. DADA is then, in another of Rowling's subversions, a stay against a greater evil than chaos, its stated target, ever was or could be. It is a stay against banality. Rowling can freely limn the stagnant weight of institutional banality for us because she hides her subversive thesis with a patina, an invisibility cloak of magic, by which method the reader is removed from the Dursley House of their daily grind. In that Dursley House, we may be closeted, abused, imprisoned, but with a flick of the page, we are transported into her work like Ginevra and Harry into the memory book of Riddle. Many contemporary writers talk about the weight of this banal social construct in which we plod, but few talk about it while, at the same time, providing a space to play with the idea, the exciting possibility, of working beyond it, of removing oneself from its more deleterious effects. Perhaps this is what attracts us to Rowling's work. And what does Rowling talk about, then, in this place we read from behind the invisibility cloak, if not the world about which those newscasts remonstrate? We see hatred, prejudice, horrible crimes, political machinations, but also acts of bravery, compassion and all those other great things. But we must stay hidden, we mustn't be seen. We can only witness. Is it because it is not our world, our time, that we are relegated to the status of observer? I say not, because it is our world, our time, seen through the lens of genre. It is because we can only witness, we can only read. Rowling, I submit, is in some sense always writing about the limits of knowing, and the need to engage. It is, finally, her most subversive thesis. There is disagreement on what genre Rowling's work occupies because, I think, edges of the cloak are always being turned up; a head shows through here, a shoe there. And always, there are those who will see right through. I posted a couple years ago the idea that Rowling refuses to let Harry break down because, if he did, we, in our reading, would find ourselves falling straight back into our social confection, into the deadly banal. This still holds. Her work communicates the huge, hidden, ubiquitous impulse to be, but meted carefully, and never without reference to the Ministry and its minion, and to the equally abrupt and convulsive impulse to power. And behind it all is just us, our internal Harry, our cupboard of unknown self. When I talk about the boy in the closet (BIC LIGHTER), that is what I am talking about. The reading demands that somewhere, probably right where we are, the boy remains tightly locked up, for now. To read Rowling critically, I am saying, as we adults do is to submit ourselves to what is truly the most difficult test there is - sitting under the Sorting Hat. (From Grindelwald to the Sorting Hat in the space of a few pages. Did I catch an unsettling echo there when I read Philospher's Stone?) And was the test about which our heroes were so apprehensive in fact a very fundamental one? We chose our readings. We think its easy to do so. But if I am correct, and Rowling is presenting us with a multi-facetted, subversive thesis of anarchy and chaos, then chosing a trivial reading is a choice that means ignoring everything we do know about the social confection. It means giving up all readings to the banal. Rowling's writing is then anodyne, in providing the patina, the invisiblity cloak, behind which, we are not expected to act. However, it does so only in order to better conduct a frontal assault on that which is deadly banal. Dan From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 06:38:22 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:38:22 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101728 Jason: So many, in fact, that I would like to do away with the American edited version all together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. Am I the only one that feels this way? Bookworm: If the books were primarily written for adults, I would agree with you. But, please remember that the American editions are published by Scholastic, whose target audience is teachers, parents and *children*. (Note: I am not arguing that JKR wrote the books for children, just that the American publisher is known for publishing children's books.) I was introduced to Harry when my then-7-y/o bought PS/SS at her school book fair. Since it is beyond the average second grader's reading level, I had to read it to her. She struggles with reading, especially with words that do not look the way they sound. Reading can be very frustrating for her and she prefers to listen to the books on CD while reading along. She would not have been able to read colour instead of color, for example, and not get confused. The British editions, with different spelling and expressions, would be truly foreign to her. Ravenclaw Bookworm From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 17 06:50:55 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:50:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101729 | From: dudemom_2000 [mailto:dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 17:28 PM | Both Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron are reporting JKR has admitted | that Blaise is a boy. Evidently the information was needed for the | Portugese translation of the books! [Lee]: Uh--which marble did I lose? Who's Blaze and where does he appear? Cheers, Lee, the Confwoozled/confunded :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Jun 17 06:55:59 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:55:59 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: <126.439e4fa9.2e028cb8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101730 > Batchevra: > I have to say that POA was different in many ways, the story line was the > same, but there were glaring differences. There was one line of Sirius' in the UK > version that was attributed to Lupin in the American version. It was after > Lupin had given Harry, Ron and Hermione's wands back and then in the US version > it had Lupin calling Ron, Boy. The US versions sometimes left out a > description, changed words, and changed who spoke what. As much as I enjoy > reading them, I will read the UK versions more than the US versions. ------ I have to say I lean towards the UK versions more myself. It irks me that something like a character's first name was changed. In OotP UK, it's "Algernon Rookwood" and in the US it's "Augustus". With the way JKR's been known to tuck meaning and personality insight into a character's name, that sort of difference is unforgivable. I'd rather there was no content difference at all between the two. In fact, I think it's a shame the Scholastic versions try to edit out the things that really flavour the setting of the books. I can't see how children (and us adults) are harmed by being exposed to the Brit-speak. Learning new things never really hurts. Arya From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 06:57:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:57:00 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need another > hobby :P) > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > she was using? > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > Jacqui Geoff: we had a very long series of posts about Mark Evans last autumn - he cropped up very frequently. I attempted to pull together some of the ideas about him; you might read message 85255 for your further interest. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 07:07:58 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:07:58 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: > I actually don't mind the Americanized versions. I like the covers > and the chapter pictures, and though I don't mind looking up words > and phrases I don't understand, it took me weeks to figure out what > the heck "Bungy the waterskiing Budgerier" was (from chapter 1, > OotP), and why it would be on the news, and I am still not sure I've > got it right (it's a little parakeet or something, right?). I am > still a bit confused about spotted dick, too. Anyway, most of the > British words don't pose much of a problem, I really love them, but > explanations of a couple of the more difficult ones would be nice. > And I probably will someday read the Brit ones, too. Geoff: (1) A budgerigar (usually contracted to budgie) is a small, popular, cage bird often blue, a bit like a canary in size. It would have been in the news because UK news programmes sometimes decide to finish with a slightly off-beat or funny news item, especially in a month like August which can be a quiet time newswise. (2) Spotted Dick. Have a look at message 86589 (Questionable dessert). From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 08:06:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:06:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40D1DD8D.14139.1F5AE79@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101733 On 17 Jun 2004 at 3:52, dzeytoun wrote: > OK folks, I think we've reached the point people always seem to reach > when discussing Severus Snape. We've boiled down into two mutually > antagonistic camps, and there's not much of a chance in all the > infernal regions that anyone is going to budge. We can spit poison > at each other till the end of Book VII and I don't think it's going > to make the slightest change in anybody's outlook. I will confess > that I myself have a totally closed mind on this point and nothing > anybody says will ever convince me that Snape is not a dangerous and > abusive menace who should be summarily tossed out on his greasy > behind. Let's just save our blood vessels, tell ourselves quietly > that we will NEVER understand how anybody with any sense could ever > believe THAT, and move on. Well, actually... I was still very much enjoying and interested in the discussion personally. Nobody has to reply to any post, of course, unless they choose to - but, personally speaking I don't see any reason to stop discussing things even if there are camps, even if there is rocksolid disagreement between the participants in the discussion - there's a lot of lurkers out there who may be finding it interesting as well. As for the idea that apparently people can't understand each others position, well, on the contrary. I *can* easily understand why someone would believe that Snape is ' a dangerous and abusive menace who should be summarily tossed out on his greasy behind.' (Well, I'm not sure how anyone could make an accurate assessment of the greasiness or otherwise of Snape's behind... but I'm sure the answer would be fascinating (-8 ). I find it incredibly easy to understand why people might feel that way, in fact. Just because I don't agree with a position, doesn't make me incapable of understanding why somebody else would believe that. > For the record, I don't think these questions will ever be settled, > even in Book VII. Even if JKR reveals how SHE sees Snape, many > people are likely not to agree with her. After she says, in > effect, "see he really is ......" many people are going to say, "No > wait a minute, no he's not." Absolutely. But what's the harm in that? There's quite a few issues discussed on this list where JKR has made her views known - and some people agree, and some people disagree. JKR can certainly tell us her own beliefs and her own intentions about her characters, or about Hogwarts, or about dozens of other issues - but she can't compell us to agree with her - and, honestly, I'd be fairly surprised if she'd even want to - I think most authors would be delighted to know their works stir up controversy and passionate discussion. The simple fact is, this issue matters to me - and there's probably a great many people it doesn't matter to. But I work week in and week out with kids who are facing many of the same issues I did - and when I say kids, I'm talking about people from age 4-20 at this stage (actually the oldest is probably around 22 or so now, but I've reluctantly accepted she's no longer a kid). A lot of these kids are *very* attracted to the world they see in Harry Potter - and a couple I know of have significant contact with rather Snape like teachers - who they value in the same way I value the ones I encountered... regarding such teachers as irredeemably abusive - well, to a great extent, that comes very close to telling these kids if they are reading, that there is something *wrong* with them - or that their experiences as students are somehow less valuable or less correct than the people who like all their wonderfully kind, compassionate teachers who tell them how great they are. I'm not going to condemn Snape unilaterally because of his attitudes (though I disagree with him on specific issues certainly) because to do so would mean condemning men who helped to save my life - and I mean that quite literally. Because they had those attitudes, and they engaged in those practices that other people find so horrible in a teacher. And thank God, they did, or I probably wouldn't be here now - even if I'd survived, I wouldn't have been the same person. I'm sacrificing a six figure income and a job I quite enjoy to become a teacher, and to dedicate my life to children and I'm doing that *because* of teachers like Snape. I don't intend to be one - because frankly, I don't think teaching like that, is something that will be effective for me. Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good teacher? No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have enough real information one way or the other to be sure. To assess whether he is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a lot more than just how he manages a classroom - like the results he achieves. I just feel that people shouldn't be so quick to condemn a man - even a fictional construct - because you personally disagree with his teaching methods, or because those methods wouldn't have suited you. People who did things like that helped to create the school that hurt me. My sig quote is there for a reason. In many ways, it's the story of my education. > Let's try a different but related topic. Why do you think it is that > so many people are reacting is such a way to so many aspects of HP? > It speaks to the books themselves, of course, but frankly I don't > think they are great literature in their own right, and certainly > almost nothing in them is original. > > I think it has to do with changes in the way we approach things. I > rather doubt that, had HP come out thirty years ago, this type of > thing would have happened. Partly that is because the internet has > made commenting and arguing easier. Partly though, I tend to follow > Umbert Eco when he talks about "hyper-reality." I definitely think you are on to the nub of the issue here. I think a lot has to do with the net. I first encountered the Harry Potter books because they were being discussed on the educational forums I hung around on - this was before they *really* started to get popular, just before they really took off. The people on these lists (lists involving gifted children and the issues associated with them) were raving about these books - mostly because of the character of Hermione IIRC. Because the majority of the people were American, I assumed they were American books, and just skimmed over the discussions. Then I was walking past a bookshop and saw the first book (or the first two?) in the window, and was honestly intrigued by the cover - this was one of the 'adult' editions and it seemed an odd cover for a kids book to have - so I brought it and read it. I was immediately hit with parallels to my own life (including, I'm afraid, with the parallels to the Snapelike teachers I had) and was hooked - but I doubt I ever would have encountered them without the net - unless and until the hype started - and mass media hype tends to turn me off things. > What he said, while visiting Disney World, was that the western world > has reached a state where everything, including myths and legends, > has become literal. Due to the fascination with technology, the > spread of rights movements, the success of communications technology, > and numerous other factors, "Because I said so" or "Because it needs > to be that way for the plot" just isn't good enough for a large > section of the literate population. We tend to approach EVERYTHING > as real and literal. We want to know all the why's and how's. HOW > does the Wizarding Government work? WHY does Dumbledore let Snape > act that way? WHAT do parents do if the teaching techniques at > Hogwarts don't work/actively harm their child? There have always been bookclubs and people have always discussed things like this - I think how the net changes things, though, is that you can so easily find people with other interests. I'm a fan of a rather obscure 1970s British Sci Fi TV show. Until I was... 20 or so, I never really encountered another fan - then somebody online started a mailing list for the show back in 1995 - and within three months 100 fans (or so) from all around the world were talking about it like old friends - most of them having had the same experience of never encountering another fan. The nature of the net means that you can online and virtually always find someone to talk to about any topic that interests you. That makes it more likely people are going to make the effort to actually do so, which in turn further increases the number of people available. In the last week online, I have discussed the following things: Military conscription, the novel (and the movie) Starship Troopers, the Solomon Islands, Heinlein, conservatism versus liberalism, the defence policy of Switzerland, careers advice at Hogwarts, how prefects are chosen at Hogwarts, subject choice at Hogwarts, F- 111s, parody websites, the Australian computer underground of the late 1980s/early 1990s, a poem I wrote in 1989 about my school experiences, the vexing question of which is nice - oreos or tim tams, tobacco taxation, the idea of a 'fat tax', and, of course, Snape as a teacher. I have easily available forums for all of this in a single week. That's a huge change in the world. And, as you say, a definite trend has emerged in literature discussion - I'd say it's a definite trend in all discussion - literature just gets its share. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bd-bear at verizon.net Thu Jun 17 05:13:06 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:13:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... In-Reply-To: <1c8.1aad5641.2e0237c2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101734 >>>From: Lynx412 at AOL.com [mailto:Lynx412 at AOL.com] And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was in charge of his condition. Message-ID: <001401c45420$8e6d4930$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > I find it strange that Lucius Malfoy got off so easily after the > first war, and with such an easy excuse either ("I was imperio'ed!" Trevor writes: If I remember correctly somewhere in the canon it states that Lucius Malfoy was never accused of being a DE, he was well insulated and slimy enough to avoid association by the MoM. He was just too smooth to get caught- LV says, "Lucius, my slippery friend, I am told that you have not renounced the old ways, though to the world you present a respectable face" (GoF 650 US). Malfoy never faced the accusations and never renounced. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 05:30:32 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:30:32 -0000 Subject: "next stop, knockturn alley" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101736 Sorry if I've missed the past 12 days while away. I saw nothing on a search. It was only because of reading this group in the past, that I was reminded that some people wondered if the ill witch and other passengers on the Knight Bus might be spying on or following Harry and/or the Order (in POA and OOTP), when upon watching the movie I heard "Next Stop, Knockturn Alley" after Harry was dropped off. Since everyone is wondering on any relevant clues, thought I'd mention that for those who were theorizing on the bus's passengers. aj (and Harry sees Sirius in the crystal ball, calling him from the beyond, hmm.. nah...) From veiledmyst at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 05:38:50 2004 From: veiledmyst at comcast.net (veiledmyst) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:38:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's business was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101737 , "Wanda Sherratt" < > wsherratt3338 at r...> wrote: > Either way, I just can't see how it was Snape's business to share that > information with the general Hogwarts population, especially when he didn't > do so all year until after he was knocked out by the students he disliked the > most, and who were clearly supportive of Lupin. Then he couldn't wait to > share the news. I think it is Snape's business in that this is twice now that he has witnessed Lupin being a danger to the school. If Lupin didn't take his potion once how does he know it won't happen again. I believe Snape had a responsibility to tell Dumbledore that he wouldn't stand silent on this information anymore, and for all we know he did as we only hear Lupin's side and do know Snape has tried to talk to Dumbledore before. Just because Dumbledore didn't want it out does not mean Snape had no business going against him. It makes it harder to do what is right when a person with higher authority in effect doesn't want you to, but that doesn't mean Snape has to silently allow things that are wrong to continue. (Lots of parents teach their children to do what is right even if it goes against direct orders.) It doesn't mean Dumbledore has to trust Snape as much as he did before either. Such is life. And I am sure Snape thought of that but decided that it shouldn't sway him from doing what he felt he had to do. To be fair, I am sure Dumbledore thought with the wolfsbane potion Lupin wouldn't be a danger. And though Snape didn't like it he didn't outright let the info slip, UNTIL Lupin showed there was a situation that could come up that put others in danger. veiledmyst From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 06:30:35 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:30:35 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > In Greek mythology, Argus was a hundred-eyed herdsman or servant of > Hera. When Zeus seduced Io, he changed her into a cow to in an > unsuccessful attempt to deceive Hera. Hera asked Zeus for the cow and set Argus to guard bovine-Io. Zeus then had Hermes kill Argus to free Io. Valky: Hasnt there been some threads investigating the link between Hermione's name and the Greek Mythology of Hermes. If this, and the above parrallel, is apt , and I am quite sure it very well could be, it would imply that Hermione has been managing to keep many more secrets from us than we know. That Hermione is good at keeping secrets IS canon, so about the spell on Argus' eyes, could our very "brightest witch of her age" put a spell on him to protect her friends sometime early in the story that we dont know about. Also Hermione is the resident history expert so I suspect she already has made an accurate guess to herself who IO/Norris is she's just not telling.... and speculating the reason for that is the best clue we have to the nature of what exctly Mr Norris is. Also I will be investigating Hermiones few interactions with Mrs Norris in the books to scour for more. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 08:00:37 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:00:37 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans was Re: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: <099601c4540a$54a62fc0$72e6f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101739 "Kimberly" wrote: > > > Mark Evans. Isn't he the little kid that Dudley beat up? 10 > > years old, correct? It makes you wonder if this is a relative. [snip] > *Kimberly's comment* > If he's an Evans (which he is) and he's related to Lily and Petunia, then it > would be on her side, not the Father's side. There has been speculation > that he's at the perfect age to enter Hogwarts next year and that he wasn't > in the canon for just any old reason. Hasn't JKR confirmed that the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives? How wide do you think she is spreading the net? Surely if he had a cousin of any kind living within beating-up distance of Dudley, this would be relevant. -- Phil From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 09:38:29 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:38:29 -0000 Subject: SS Question In-Reply-To: <008501c45424$fd7c63c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > I am going to apologize for having way too much time on my hands at > > the moment :P > > I was reading another interview and found this: > > > > My mother passed way nine years ago, and her death greatly > > influenced a passage in Book 1. And I'm sure careful readers don't > > need to be told what passage that is. My father is still alive, and > > he really likes the books, and my sister, to whom the first book is > > dedicated in part, was the first person ever to hear the story. She > > didn't read it, but I told it to her. > > > > Does anyone happen to know what passage she is talking about off > > hand? > > > > Jacqui > > Harry seeing his parents in the Mirror of Erised. Rowling was trying to > relay to the readers the feeling of always wanting just one more minute with > them and it's never enough. > > Alina. Ah ok, that makes perfect sense I think. I read in another interview when someone asked JKR what she would see in the mirror of Erised, she said her mother. Thanks! Jacqui From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 09:40:53 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:40:53 -0000 Subject: Off the wall character question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" > wrote: > > While I was rereading OOP for the umtinth time, I decided to write > > down the names of everyone that I came across (I know I need > another > > hobby :P) > > Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans...we all know that > > is Lily & Petunia's maiden name...is it possible there could be > > something there, or is it possible JK just didnt realize what name > > she was using? > > For those interested you can find it on OOP p.13 > > Jacqui > > Geoff: > we had a very long series of posts about Mark Evans last autumn - he > cropped up very frequently. > > I attempted to pull together some of the ideas about him; you might > read message 85255 for your further interest. Thank you Geoff, I appreciate the time you took to find that :P From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Jun 17 09:13:14 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:13:14 -0000 Subject: How JKR depicts how we all live in England (Was Re: British V American) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101742 All the discussions about the differences between the UK books and the American versions got me thinking. I personally am a firm believer that there never should have been an 'American' version, and yes, I know that children in the US may not understand all of the UK words and phrases, but surely that's the perfect opportunity to ask and find out? But anyway, I digress. The other day I was at a champagne reception at one of our West End theatres and got talking to a lovely American woman who was visiting from New York. She was, luckily, a great HP fan and ultra friendly as most visitors are from the US. However, I got knocked for six when she asked me if I was caned when I was at school. I'm sure she was thinking about Harry's made up discipline at St. Brutus'. My eyes widened as I explained, very politely, that caning has been banned in the UK for quite some time. I think we would all agree that JKR is the most famous writer to come out of England for decades. The whole world reads her descriptions of an, albeit make believe, English boy living in the UK. However, what sometimes causes my heart to miss a beat is that I think she feels it is necessary to include such *sterotypical* English moments and words. Don't get me wrong. I love the books. But the whole world reads these books and thinks they are given and insight into our little island. And I'm grateul for JKR putting us more firmly on the map. But I'm sure that many people still think that our schools are run by stuffy old men in bowler hats (again thanks JKR), with canes, who summon you into their office for a jolly good beating for wearing the wrong socks to school. Let me explain... sometimes I read the posts in this group, and elsewhere, and worry that we take JKR's Harry Potter world too literally. I think she often has an inaccurate account of what it is like these days to live here and panders to the outside view of what it really is like. I went to High School in America and as an English girl was astounded at how people perceived my home land. I often read HP and get flashbacks of JKR's inspiration -Enid Blyton. Which is great, but that was decades ago. We no longer live in quaint little England. Perhaps I'm taking it all too seriously. I would imagine that a high percentage of our British teenagers don't know what spotted dick is (it's delicious by the way), or wouldn't know what a budgerigar is either. Most of the kids around also wouldn't recognise a hydrangea bush from an eggplant if it jumped out from behind a tree and waved a flag saying 'Hey kid! I'm a hydrangea bush!' I open a new HP book dreading to find Hermione exclaiming 'Jolly Hockey sticks! Pip pip cheerio and all that my old mucker!' I suppose what I'm saying is please please take all of the Britishisms (is that a word!?) with a pinch of salt. I am thrilled that everyone takes such an interest in finding out what these words mean, and that people want to understand every detail about the world of Harry Potter. Please remember it is fictional and not a representation of this (wonderful) country. Don't expect to come to London and find Stan Shunpike on all the double decker busses. You are more than likely going to get a grumpy old man who will grunt less than two words at you while snatching your fare from your hand. I know you are all too intelligent to jump to those conclusion anyway (I love this site by the way!) but this woman in the theatre just made me a little concerned... I certainly don't want this to seem like an attack on Americans. It isn't. I grew up there and adore it, but I just felt like explaining myself. Thank you so very very much, I think you're all just super splendid and just absolutely cracking ;) Josephine. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 09:54:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:54:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How JKR depicts how we all live in England (Was Re: British V American) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D1F6E7.24981.258BC12@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101743 On 17 Jun 2004 at 9:13, Jospehine wrote: > The other day I was at a champagne reception at one of our West End > theatres and got talking to a lovely American woman who was visiting > from New York. She was, luckily, a great HP fan and ultra friendly as > most visitors are from the US. However, I got knocked for six when > she asked me if I was caned when I was at school. I'm sure she was > thinking about Harry's made up discipline at St. Brutus'. My eyes > widened as I explained, very politely, that caning has been banned in > the UK for quite some time. But remember that the Harry Potter books are set in the past - not a long time in the past, but in the past nonetheless. Consider that Prisoner of Azkaban (where we get the mention of St. Brutus) is set in 1993. In 1992, while all state schools had been banned from using the cane for 6 years, and many private schools had also banned it, there were still a significant number of schools across the UK that were using the cane. It wasn't banned in private schools in Britain until 1998, and there were still at least 200 schools still using corporal punishment at the time of abolition across the UK. It's really doesn't seem that surprising that someone like Aunt Marge would be asking that type of question back in 1993. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 10:06:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:06:48 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: dudemom_2000 [mailto:dudemom_2000 at y...] > | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 17:28 PM > | Both Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron are reporting JKR has admitted > | that Blaise is a boy. Evidently the information was needed for the > | Portugese translation of the books! Lee: > Uh--which marble did I lose? Who's Blaze and where does he appear? Geoff: '....and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry crossed his fingers under the table and a second later the hat had shouted "GRYFFINDOR!" Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair next to him. "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise" was amde a Slytherin. Professor McGonagall rolled up her scroll and took the Sorting Hat away.' (Philosopher's Stone "The Sorting Hat" p.91 UK edition) This is the principal reference. I'm trying to remember if there is a further mention. Blaise is one of those who, like Theodore Nott, has been in the frame to be the "good Slytherin". From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 01:23:37 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:23:37 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" wrote: > Possible Hints at 6 and 7 in the POA movie: Hi Valky Here! long time absentee list member.. I assume this reason for this post has to do with the JKR interview in which she, and I am not quoting just paraphrasing, said that the audience would be treated to interesting tidbits of clue in POA the movie even one which we would recognise as portends to books 6 7 and 8. Yay!!! Incidentally I enjoyed the film, mostly, I was impressed at the way Alfonso Cuaron very accurately developed the time turner in the movie it was particularly well done... The Knight Bus was soooo well translated as well loved it!! My only small disappointment is that, I felt the Shreiking Shack scene was rushed losing much of the feeling for it that I enjoyed when reading the book. Which brings me to my point, JKR it appears was less troubled by the lack of weight placed on the shrieking shack scene. Yet in the book this scene is.... well... HUGE!! My suspicions are raised now that perhaps JKR has USED the Moony Wormtail Padfoot Prongs story in this scene, such a passionate and important part of the plot when Harry realises hes just connected with the only people hes ever known to have love his parents as much as himself. How could you not get swept away in the emotion of this chapter.... AND... what a perfect place to slip in the all important but seemingly inconsequential give away line. Well its a thought anyway. Best to you all Valky Elf note regarding this thread: This thread tiptoes on the Main list/OT/Movie divide. Would respondents please remember that main list posts must be canon based. Responses to Valky's main point are thus fine on this list, but any comments purely on her incidental comments regarding the movie should go off-list or to Movie or OTC. Many thanks From laurens at leroc.net Thu Jun 17 11:04:33 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:04:33 -0000 Subject: Orphans? (was Re: Off the wall character question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: Anyways, I came across someone named Mark Evans... Then Geoff: > > we had a very long series of posts about Mark Evans last autumn - > > he cropped up very frequently. After reading the past posts, it's only just struck me that we know nothing of James' or Lily's parents - Harry's Grandparents. I can't remember any reference to them at all. I assume, because they've not been mentioned, they're no longer living. Is this just a plot device, in order that Harry has to live with the Dursleys, or is it a parallel to Harry's orphan status? Lily's parents would need to be dead, in order that Petunia is his only blood relative. But what about James' parents? Again - they would need to be absent in order that there was no claim to offering a home for Harry (else the ancient magic would not protect him). I can't help wondering about 3 possible options: 1. James was an orphan at Hogwarts - a parallel with Harry's situation, and perhaps is one more similarity to James that Snape sees in Harry? 2. James' (and perhaps Lily's) parents were casualties of the first Voldemort rise to power? 3. The Potters are still alive, but their existence has been kept from Harry in order that he stays with the Dursleys? Any thoughts? From suzchiles at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 11:13:14 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 04:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS Question Message-ID: <20040617111314.37439.qmail@web40605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101747 The Mirror of Erised. Suzanne > I was reading another interview and found this: > > My mother passed way nine years ago, and her death greatly > influenced a passage in Book 1. And I'm sure careful readers don't > need to be told what passage that is. My father is still alive, and > he really likes the books, and my sister, to whom the first book is > dedicated in part, was the first person ever to hear the story. She > didn't read it, but I told it to her. > > Does anyone happen to know what passage she is talking about off > hand? > > Jacqui __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bd-bear at verizon.net Thu Jun 17 05:15:53 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:15:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101748 >>>From: Janet Anderson [mailto:norek_archives2 at hotmail.com] Phil: ***For the record, I have a mini-theory about Dumbledore's partial omniscience having something to do with his Chocolate Frog Cards*** I thought about that too. And he did say he didn't care what the Ministry did to him as long as they didn't take him off the Chocolate Frog cards. Maybe he just meant that being on a series of children's educational cards was more important to him, as an educator, than the honors he had from the Ministry. And maybe not.<<< Just curious, but what book does he say that in? I'm rereading GOF for the 3rd or 4th time and then onto OOTP for just my second time, so if it's in the last book I wouldn't remember anyway. Thanks! Barbara bd-bear From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 17 11:19:06 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:19:06 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Orphans? (was Re: Off the wall character question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D20ACA.24069.2A66B77@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101749 On 17 Jun 2004 at 11:04, lauren_silverwolf wrote: > 1. James was an orphan at Hogwarts - a parallel with Harry's > situation, and perhaps is one more similarity to James that Snape > sees in Harry? We're told that Sirius went to live with James' and his parents after he ran away from home at age 16, so they were alive at that point - and for some time after. "'You ran away from home?' 'When I was about sixteen,' said Sirius. 'I'd had enough.' 'Where did you go?' asked Harry, staring at him. 'Your dad's place,' said Sirius. 'Your grandparents were really good about it; they sort of adopted me as a second son. Yeah, I camped out at your dad's in the school holidays, and when I was seventeen I got a place of my own. My Uncle Alphard had left me a decent bit of gold - he's been wiped off here, too, that's probably why - anyway, after that I looked after myself. I was always welcome at Mr and Mrs Potter's for Sunday lunch, though.'" (Order of the Phoenix, p103-104 (British edition). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 17 11:39:24 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:39:24 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Kneasy: > > See? The possibilities are many, these are just a sample, lots > > more where they came from, but only a few endings get serious > > consideration. > > And that's just one facet of the story. Expectation and perception > > again. *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're the ones in > > blinkers. We have defined our own boundaries. > > > SSSusan: > It's interesting, isn't it? Are these other possibilities ignored > because we're oddsmakers at heart? Because of the gut reaction > factor? Because of the "I don't WANT that to happen" aspect of it? > > Kneasy: Most likely it's a combination of a number of influences, for most anyway. Tradition is probably high on most lists. "This is the way this type of story ends; always has, and so should this one." Yes, "Don't want it to end that way" has also figured in some posts, though it may be a variant of the "Tradition" factor. What's familiar is comfortable and comforting. Lots of fans have classified the HP series in their minds as a certain type of fiction; if it turned out not to fit neatly into that category, well, it might cause puzzlement, even consternation. But JKR never said it would fit any particular category. Expectation and perception, yet again. > > SSSusan: > When you wrote, above, about how our perceptions & expectations have > changed over the course of reading the first five books, I have to > admit that I began to wonder how *disappointed* some would be if the > ending *is* a simple one. Then as I read further, it seemed that > there's a bit of a warning from you to those that might be looking > for the simple ending, since JKR *has* made her story inreasingly > complex and dark. > Kneasy: Not so much a warning - more of 'the story arc can be interpreted as going this way. I wonder why? What does it mean?' It's an observation combined with a bit of wishful thinking of my own. Some will be disappointed by a not so much simple, let's say instead simplistic, ending. ( For example a death would be a simple ending - whose death could flip the ending from simplistic to complex - in the minds of the readers, anyway.) A simplistic ending would be a let-down for some. They've grown accustomed to JKR's twists and turns and want more; more! more, I tell you! For others anything other than the traditional would be a disaster. > SSSusan: > But how interesting that I was only thinking of those TWO > possibilities: too simplistic & sweet for one group; too dark & > unhappy for another. Interesting because, myself, I've been holding > out for "elegantly simple" from JKR. Not sugary sweet, but lovely in > the way JKR can make things lovely, even if they're bittersweet & > hold tragedy. Something *brilliant* in its simplicity and yet still > so unique or unexpected that we didn't see it coming. I suspect you > wouldn't use the same phrase I do, but I think you're offering out > hope for something similar--a complex but not necessary negative > ending, something nice and meaty. > Kneasy: Meaty, yes; brilliant would be good too. Mostly I want to be surprised, intrigued, thoughtful, challenged and involved. Not much to ask, is it? It needn't be particularly complex in the way it's written or presented to be able to do that - there have been times in the past when the very last line of a tale has forced me to re-think the whole, though admittedly that tends to happen more often in short stories than in major works. Certainly the lead-up has been complex; unless there is an inordinate amount of tidying up in book 6 it's it's difficult to imagine a straight- forward resolution - but I'm not the author. > SSSusan: > Sheesh--have I contradicted myself here in saying that I think you're > hoping for something similar, when you want challenging & meaty (& > complex?) and I'm calling it "elegantly simple"? It seems I am, yet > they feel the same somehow.... Maybe I need a nap. > Kneasy: Could it be that we both want more but can't define the 'more of what'? Expectations not of the story but of the author? From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 17 11:45:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:45:45 -0000 Subject: The Snape-Malfoy connection In-Reply-To: <001401c45420$8e6d4930$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101751 > Trevor writes: > > If I remember correctly somewhere in the canon it states that Lucius Malfoy was never accused of being a DE, he was well insulated and slimy enough to avoid association by the MoM. He was just too smooth to get caught- LV says, "Lucius, my slippery friend, I am told that you have not renounced the old ways, though to the world you present a respectable face" (GoF 650 US). > Malfoy never faced the accusations and never renounced. > Are you sure? GoF ch 36 "Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibly affronted. "A very old family -- donations to excellent causes--" "Mcnair!" Harry continued. "Also cleared! Now working for the Ministry!" "Avery -- Nott -- Crabbe -- Goyle--" "You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" said Fudge angrily. "You could have found those names in old reports of the trials![...]" Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 17 11:55:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:55:35 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101752 Dzeytoun wrote: > > Oh, to answer an objection in advance, yes I think Dumbledore WOULD > interfere with Snape in this manner. We have what I think is pretty > good indication that he intervened and forbade Snape from failing > Harry after third year. We also know that changing school rules in a > time of national crisis is hardly unreasonable or unheard of, at > least in the Muggle world where entire curricula are often > restructured in the face of national crises. > Potioncat: It depends on how we want to approach it. We can each set up camp, say I believe this (or that) and dig in. We've been told a student has to get an Outstanding to get into Potions. That Harry needs Potions for his career plans. We aren't too sure he can make it. As I recall, McGonagall said he would have to work hard in Potions to be able to make an Outstanding on the OWLS. Not that it would be impossible, that he needed to work hard. We also know that she based her opinion on his marks. So if Professor Snape has been grading him down, he is actually doing better than it appears. We have been told that Harry found Potions OWLS easier than Potions class and that it appeared that Neville did too. Professor Snape said that he is used to seeing a high pass rate from his classes. (If a high percentage of his class passes, then a fairly high number must do well.) I'm making a point of saying we've been told, and it appears. JKR has us on pins and needles just like we were after we took [insert name of your country's tests here] OK what will it be? Harry gets an O: Suspence is over Harry doesn't get an O. Several more chapters of suspence. Will Snape be made to let him in by DD or by some compromise? (Draco doesn't get an E and needs it for Transfiguration for example) (Snape lets him into Potions if he does not rejoin the Quidditch team)Personally, I think it goes against what we see of DD for him to force Snape to let Harry in. Nor, IMO, did he make Snape pass Harry. Will Harry have to take remedial potions for real before re-taking OWLS in the summer? Will Snape be teaching a different subject or no subject? Will Harry have to face the music and look to a different career? Has Jo thought of something I haven't? Rather than choosing an outcome and arguing it until the cows come home (although that is sometimes fun.) I'm just really eager to see what Jo's playing at. (one of my new British phrases that I only vaguely understand) Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 17 12:00:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:00:15 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101753 Dzeytoun: > I don't make an argument one way or the other about whether that's > good or bad. I do think, however, it's a definite trend. And while > I appreciate the discomfort and dismay of people who look at all this > argument and say "It's just a book people, can't you just take it as > it is?" I think that that is unlikely to happen, and it misses > something important that's going on. > x Potioncat: Nice Post. When I joined this group I thought I'd found a group of intelligent adults who were probing the mysteries, word plays and meanings of Harry Potter and I enjoyed it tremendously. What stimulation! I'm come to see in a magical mirror that we are just like my mother-in- law and her cronies who sit on the porch and gab about the characters on their favorite soap operas. Somewhat humbled.....but I still enjoy it tremendously! Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 12:19:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:19:45 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101754 Alla wrote : > LOL, Susan! I agree with you, I think kids WOULD like if Snape would > lay off Neville. (HA! In my dreams. :o)) Del replies : I think Shaun meant "if Snape lay off Neville but continued the same otherwise". In that case, I don't think the kids would care much. They might be puzzled that Snape leave Neville alone, but they wouldn't believe he's changing since he's doing all the rest of his nasty tricks. Alla wrote : > Seriously, though, it will be a start. It will show that Snape can > grow and change as a human being. Del replies : I don't think Snape *cares* or *wants* to grow and change. I don't think Snape sees a *need* for him to change. And I don't think he's interested in becoming nicer : he doesn't seem to hold "nice" in great esteem. Alla wrote : > Really, one of the reasons why I am so fed up with Snape's nursing > his old grudges after OoP is because his character started to be > come static. No change at all. Del replies : Snape is an adult, and adults don't change that fast, especially when they don't try to and if they have no good reason to do so. Personally, I would be annoyed if Snape changed for no other reason than because most readers don't like him the way he is. It would be totally out of character : remember, people like Snape don't care about others' opinion of them. Alla wrote : > I wanted to applaud Snape, when at the end of GoF he showed his > Mark to Fudge. Futile gesture? Maybe, but so courageous (true > Gryffindor ":o)) and supportive of Harry, who just went through > hell. I thought that would be a start of new beginnings for Snape > and Harry and Sirius ( No, not the beginning of the beatiful > friendship :o), but just new beginning) > > And here we are in OoP, back to square 1. Grrrrrr. Del replies : I think your frustration comes from the fact that maybe you misunderstood the real motive for Snape showing his Mark. You seem to think he was supporting Harry ; I never saw anything like that. The way I see it, Snape was trying to support *DD* and his cause, but not Harry. Snape doesn't like the fact that he has to work alongside Harry any more than Harry does. Snape doesn't care about Harry. But he cares about DD and about the cause. So for me, Snape showing his Mark was perfectly in character and in the continuity of what Snape had done before, and wasn't a sign of change at all. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 17 12:22:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:22:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's business was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101755 snipping "veiledmyst" wrote: snip snip I think it is Snape's business in that this is twice now that he has > witnessed Lupin being a danger to the school. If Lupin didn't take > his potion once how does he know it won't happen again. > > I believe Snape had a responsibility to tell Dumbledore that he > wouldn't stand silent on this information anymore, and for all we > know he did as we only hear Lupin's side and do know Snape has tried > to talk to Dumbledore before. Potioncat: I agree with this possibility. For me the reason to "defend" Snape is that we're often shown what he has done and we're given someone's explanation for why he did it. But we don't really know Snape's personal motivation. It's like thinking Ron and Harry took the car to school to show off. I enjoy looking for another plausible explanation...and waiting to see if it pans out in future books. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Thu Jun 17 12:24:10 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:24:10 -0000 Subject: lend me your extendable ears Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101756 in her post 101404 Tina wrote: >From J.K. Rowling site, the rumours section: """"Book six is going to be called 'Harry Potter and the Green Flame Torch' or 'the Mountain of Fantasy' and book seven is going to be called 'Harry Potter and the Fortress of Shadows' or 'the Forest of Shadows' JKR: Not even close! Who makes these up?! And this green torch business seems to be cropping up everywhere. Do you really think getting rid of Voldemort would be that easy?"""" Maybe she let it slip, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems she asks us if we think getting rid of Voldemort would involve a green flame torch, except that's the supposed title for book six, not seven! Yes, that's my theory: Harry will defeat Voldemort in book six. Tina, I *adore* this!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a devious mind you have (grin)! Your post started me thinking that in finishing off Voldy something could be unleashed in Harry that makes his internal conflict alone powerful enough to drive the final book. That 'essence divided' stuff perhaps. However, the conflict still has to have form, so I got to thinking where will I find an antagonist to act out Harry's story with him. Well that's not too difficult is it? Please step forward Severus Snape! Then *I* got devious... what if Snape finished off Voldy thus depriving Harry of revenge, justice, closure? What if Snape got the glory? Perhaps Harry doubts his motives because he alone witnesses Snape destroying not only Voldy but, unnecessarily in Harry's opinion, whatever is left of Tom Riddle too? Picture the scene June Early Evening Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry The much speculated about cemetery Snape looks on smugly as Harry Potter gives his Graveside Eulogy for Tom Riddle (Not all my own work!) Friends, Hogwartians, Magical countrymen, lend me your extendable ears; I come to bury Tom Riddle, not to praise him; The evil that men do lives after them, The good is oft interr?d with their bones So let it be with Riddle . The noble Snape Hath told you Riddle was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Riddle answered it . Here, under leave of Snape and the rest, You all did pity Tom once, not without cause: What cause withholds you then to mourn for him? O judgement! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason . Harry turns and walks into the sunset. We await book 7! What if Harry believes all other men have lost their reason? What if Harry convinces himself that Snape has ambitions to be the new big bad? What if no one will back Harry in his suspicions? Not Ron and Hermione who have discovered loves young dream. Not even DD who makes Snape the new DADA teacher now danger is passed. One manboy stands alone facing his enemy, his past and his destiny, possibly the destiny of all Wizard kind.... Oh I feel a Morricone score coming on...... Regards Jo From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 17 12:33:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:33:01 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101757 We are concerned for Neville and Harry because we agree that abuse can cause lasting damage, meaning symptoms that persist even in the face of powerful incentives to change. These symptoms may include paradoxical effects like sadism and inappropriate aggression. We agree it would not be realistic to deal with abuse in the novels and not show these effects. Why, then, are Snape's sadism and inappropriate aggression not read as the realistic results of abuse? If abuse causes lasting damage, why expect that Snape should have gotten over it? Pippin From deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 16 15:20:53 2004 From: deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net (lilysphoenix) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:20:53 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lucinda428" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > vmonte wrote: > > snip > > > > > > Harry realizes that he was there (as a child and as an 18 year > > old). > > > He goes back but cannot save Lily from death. (Snape is also > there > > > but he is one of the bad guys.) Eighteen year old Harry is > killed > > > there--because he saves Snape's life. Snape owes Harry. Because > > > Harry looks like James, people assume that it is him in the > > rubble. > > > Snape carries Harry away and somehow puts a stopper on his > death. > > > Vmonte - While not wishing to quibble with your dream (you have much > better dreams than I do!), a perhaps even more exciting prospect is > that Harry does go back in time, does fail to save Lily, but IS the > cause of his own survival. There is the matching wands thing and > all its inherent surprises, for a start. (Alternatively, if you > want to read the prophecy the other way, Neville could be the means > of intervention just as easily.) > > Snape's involvement is an interesting thesis, but not necessary to > the success of the basic premise. I like the idea of a teenage Harry being at GH that night. Here are my reasons: (that I can recall at the moment ;)) 1) In PoA (the movie), when Harry comes into contact with the Dementors, he hears his mother's screams. Something that I didn't notice the first time around, is that Lily is screaming "Harry!" Sure, she could have called his name as she threw herself in front of him to shield him from Voldemort's curse, but what if she were calling out to him instead. What if he were there, and she were calling out to him for help? It just seems like "No!" would have been the more appropriate reaction to someone trying to attack your child while you throw yourself in front of them. 2) The theme of the movie was obviously time. There was of course, the huge clock on the castle and the huge swinging pendulum that were in several scenes. At one point Harry is shown standing behind the clock (which is erie forshadowing if you ask me). There was a sundial in the scene where Heromine punches Malfoy. There was even ticking in the music. 3) The Lupin/Harry scene on the bridge. Lupin tells Harry "Your more like them than you know, in TIME you will come to see just how much." We also know that in the book, Lupin had the strange look when he asks Harry, "You heard James?" (or something like that, I don't have my book handy.) What if this was because he knew that Harry was actually hearing himself? 4) Sirius tells Harry right before he escapes with Buckbeak, "The ones we love never truly leave us." We know that JKR tells us that there were things in PoA the movie, that forshadowed what will happen in books 6 and 7. I think these could be some of those things. What do you think? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 17 13:25:22 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:25:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's business was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "veiledmyst" wrote: > , "Wanda Sherratt" < > > wsherratt3338 at r...> wrote: > > > Either way, I just can't see how it was Snape's business to share > that > > information with the general Hogwarts population, especially when > he didn't > > do so all year until after he was knocked out by the students he > disliked the > > most, and who were clearly supportive of Lupin. Then he couldn't > wait to > > share the news. Not to be a stickler here, but that was actually written by somebody else responding to MY post, which was substantially in agreement with you. > > I think it is Snape's business in that this is twice now that he has > witnessed Lupin being a danger to the school. If Lupin didn't take > his potion once how does he know it won't happen again. I think it's also his business because he's more than just a snoopy bystander here. He is actively participating in Project Lupin, because he is making the potion that enables Lupin to stay at Hogwarts and function relatively normally. Dumbledore would have had to discuss this with Snape in advance, and get his agreement to the situation. I think that gives him some rights in the matter, and he seems to think so too. Also some responsibility. Objections on the grounds of safety would have been answered with the wolfsbane- potion solution, but when that precaution failed, what could Dumbledore reasonably say? "Yes, what I said wouldn't happen did happen, but we got lucky and nobody was hurt. I'm sure we can rely on our luck holding if it happens again." I wouldn't accept that argument, and I'm not as choleric as Snape. I think Snape's way of getting rid of Lupin was very nasty, but I don't object to the fact that he DID engineer his departure, only the method. I think Snape would figure that Lupin's accident broke the deal with Dumbledore, and he was entitled to expect Lupin's removal. Unfortunately, you can't rely on Snape for charity or sensitivity, hence the brutality of the method employed. > Wanda From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Thu Jun 17 11:29:15 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:29:15 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: <40D1DD8D.14139.1F5AE79@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101760 Shaun said: A lot of these > kids are *very* attracted to the world they see in Harry Potter - > and a couple I know of have significant contact with rather Snape > like teachers - who they value in the same way I value the ones I > encountered... regarding such teachers as irredeemably abusive - > well, to a great extent, that comes very close to telling these > kids if they are reading, that there is something *wrong* with them > - or that their experiences as students are somehow less valuable > or less correct than the people who like all their wonderfully > kind, compassionate teachers who tell them how great they are. OK. I'm not sure that a method or tradition is worthwhile simply because some people derive benefit from it. There are lots of things out there that benefit some people that nevertheless, as a whole, create more pain and harm in the world than they do good. I won't give some obvious historical examples because I think I would be perceived as being hurtful and making comparisons I really don't intend to make. Still, I acknowledge your point. > > Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good teacher? > No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have enough real > information one way or the other to be sure. To assess whether he > is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a lot more than just how > he manages a classroom - like the results he achieves. This is an excellent point and one with which I totally agree. Lots of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his students' performance. I think this is largely speculation. I did an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that people regarded him as making students learn, etc. All the references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students learn, etc. McGonagall at least obliquely acknowledges, in the "Career Advice" part of OOTP, that some people just don't seem to prosper very well under Snape's tutelage. > > I definitely think you are on to the nub of the issue here. I think > a lot has to do with the net. > Yes, I believe that the net is definitely the main technological development driving this trend, and it IS definitely a trend in literature and, as you say, other things. Which is why I think the type of thing we see in HP discussions is not an aberration, but an indication of a future trend. Dzeytoun From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 13:37:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:37:09 -0000 Subject: Fishing for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101761 Phil: > ***For the record, I have a mini-theory about Dumbledore's partial > omniscience having something to do with his Chocolate Frog Cards*** Janet [I think!]: > I thought about that too. And he did say he didn't care what the Ministry > did to him as long as they didn't take him off the Chocolate Frog cards. > Maybe he just meant that being on a series of children's educational cards > was more important to him, as an educator, than the honors he had from the > Ministry. And maybe not.<<< Barbara: > Just curious, but what book does he say that in? I'm rereading GOF for the > 3rd or 4th time and then onto OOTP for just my second time, so if it's in > the last book I wouldn't remember anyway. SSSusan: It's in OoP, when Harry's just arrived at Grimmauld Place and everyone is filling him in on what's been happening, and about how DD has begun to have honors taken away from him--such as losing his position in the Wizengamot. Siriusly Snapey Susan From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 13:50:51 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:50:51 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview. Who will die? In-Reply-To: <20040617043854.65417.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > The following is from the World Day interview with JKR. I was just reading through it and found these three questions rather interesting: > > > Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school? > JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... I'm not going to tell you :) > > gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts > JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action! > > > Jangles: Are you going to write books about harry after school? > JK Rowling replies -> Probably not, but I'll never say never because every time I do I immediately break the vow! > > > > Does anyone else read into it what I do? Or am I just hoping? > > moonmyyst (who loves Harry and wants to adopt him for her own!! - just like the Weasleys, one more won't hurt!!) > > Antosha: Hmmmm. The way you lay that out certainly does seem suggestive. Though of course she's famously answered questions about Harry's future with the "if he lives" bit too... From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 17 13:58:56 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:58:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101763 I think Harry already has "someone" with him....Hedwig....I still say there is more than just OWL there! drjfdh...wishing the DVD was already out! Gina: Me too! I just don't see Hagrid waltzing into a pet shop and purchasing an ordinary owl. Gina - who is accused on being Hagrid's sister with all my creatures - only MUCH shorter! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 13:57:04 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:57:04 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101764 Kneasy: > > > *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're > > > the ones in blinkers. We have defined our own boundaries. SSSusan: > > It's interesting, isn't it? Are these other possibilities > > ignored because we're oddsmakers at heart? Because of the gut > > reaction factor? Because of the "I don't WANT that to happen" > > aspect of it? Kneasy: > Most likely it's a combination of a number of influences, for most > anyway. > Tradition is probably high on most lists. "This is the way this > type of story ends; always has, and so should this one." > Yes, "Don't want it to end that way" has also figured in some posts, > though it may be a variant of the "Tradition" factor. What's > familiar is comfortable and comforting. But JKR never > said it would fit any particular category. > Some will be disappointed by a not so much simple, let's say instead > simplistic, ending. ( For example a death would be a simple ending - > whose death could flip the ending from simplistic to complex - in > the minds of the readers, anyway.) A simplistic ending would be a > let-down for some. They've grown accustomed to JKR's twists and > turns and want more; more! more, I tell you! > For others anything other than the traditional would be a disaster. SSSusan: > > But how interesting that I was only thinking of those TWO > > possibilities: too simplistic & sweet for one group; too dark & > > unhappy for another. Interesting because, myself, I've been > > holding out for "elegantly simple" from JKR. Not sugary sweet, > > but lovely in the way JKR can make things lovely, even if they're > > bittersweet & hold tragedy. Something *brilliant* in its > > simplicity and yet still so unique or unexpected that we didn't > > see it coming. I suspect you wouldn't use the same phrase I do, > > but I think you're offering out hope for something similar--a > > complex but not necessary negative ending, something nice and > > meaty. Kneasy: > Meaty, yes; brilliant would be good too. Mostly I want to be > surprised, intrigued, thoughtful, challenged and involved. Not much > to ask, is it? > It needn't be particularly complex in the way it's written or > presented to be able to do that. > > Certainly the lead-up has been complex; unless there is an > inordinate amount of tidying up in book 6 it's it's difficult to > imagine a straight-forward resolution - but I'm not the author. SSSusan: > > Sheesh--have I contradicted myself here in saying that I think > > you're hoping for something similar, when you want challenging & > > meaty (& complex?) and I'm calling it "elegantly simple"? It > > seems I am, yet they feel the same somehow.... Maybe I need a > > nap. Kneasy: > Could it be that we both want more but can't define the 'more of > what'? > Expectations not of the story but of the author? SSSusan: Yes. Excellent. Indeed, this captures it! I loved what you said about how we've become accustomed to JKR's twists & turns and we want more!! We don't want to get to the end and say, "All that...for THIS??" Simple vs. simplistic is a very helpful way of phrasing things, imo. Simple in explanation can be just fine--it doesn't have to be convoluted or difficult for a 9-year-old to follow. But simple can also be brilliant or elegant in the way the denouement is presented to us. As you say, JKR has not PROMISED us anything. She's NOT said "This is a traditional hero's journey," and in fact she HAS said "I did not conceive it as a moral tale, the morality sprang naturally out of the story, a subtle but important difference. I think any book that sets out to teach or preach is likely to be hard going at times (though I can think of a couple of exceptions)." So I think we DO have reason to wonder just how "traditional" this series will end up being. Yet I conclude with this: JKR may not be *the* best writer out there, but I delight in her work, and she has given me high hopes for a "satisfactory" ending. I can't imagine her letting me down in this, really. I might not be totally pleased w/ what befalls particular characters or with the lack of resolution of a story line or two, but I think she will manage to bring it all together with more twists, turns, surprises, and hopefully (at least for me!) a few delights. I don't think I care if it's a "traditional" ending, as long as JKR maintains her level of presenting the story so far. If she does that, I'll likely end up believing that her ending is "right" even if it didn't contain the specifics I had hoped for. Hmmm. I've had a nap. Still not sure I'm especially clear. Maybe Potioncat is right and I should switch to wine reviews.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 14:01:04 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:01:04 -0000 Subject: How JKR depicts how we all live in England (Was Re: British V American) In-Reply-To: <40D1F6E7.24981.258BC12@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101765 > On 17 Jun 2004 at 9:13, Jospehine wrote: > > > The other day I was at a champagne reception at one of our West End > > theatres and got talking to a lovely American woman who was visiting > > from New York. She was, luckily, a great HP fan and ultra friendly as > > most visitors are from the US. However, I got knocked for six when > > she asked me if I was caned when I was at school. I'm sure she was > > thinking about Harry's made up discipline at St. Brutus'. My eyes > > widened as I explained, very politely, that caning has been banned in > > the UK for quite some time. > > But remember that the Harry Potter books are set in the past - not > a long time in the past, but in the past nonetheless. > > Consider that Prisoner of Azkaban (where we get the mention of St. > Brutus) is set in 1993. > > In 1992, while all state schools had been banned from using the > cane for 6 years, and many private schools had also banned it, > there were still a significant number of schools across the UK that > were using the cane. It wasn't banned in private schools in Britain > until 1998, and there were still at least 200 schools still using > corporal punishment at the time of abolition across the UK. > > It's really doesn't seem that surprising that someone like Aunt > Marge would be asking that type of question back in 1993. > > > > > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Antosha: It also ought to be mentioned that Aunt Marge is definitely 'old-school' when it comes to education. She doesn't have kids, so HER image of the school system was probably formed in the 1950s--almost certainly at a public school, since that's where her brother was, er, educated. Josephine--your point is very well taken. For those of us outside of Britain whose window in consists only of JK Rowling (that's pronounced like 'row the boat' not 'we had a terrible row', yes?) and not of AS Byatt, Helen Fielding, Martin Amis or any one of dozens of other wonderful contemporary British authors, it is easy to lose track of the fact that the Potterverse is a) fantasy, even when on muggle soil and b) satire. But I submit to you that rest of the world has just as skewed an image of American life because of the exportation of a) bad American television and b) bad American movies. It's the downside of cultural imperialism! From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Jun 17 14:03:44 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:03:44 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > We are concerned for Neville and Harry because we agree that > abuse can cause lasting damage, meaning symptoms that > persist even in the face of powerful incentives to change. These > symptoms may include paradoxical effects like sadism and > inappropriate aggression. We agree it would not be realistic to > deal with abuse in the novels and not show these effects. > > Why, then, are Snape's sadism and inappropriate aggression > not read as the realistic results of abuse? If abuse causes > lasting damage, why expect that Snape should have gotten over > it? I would indeed be most concerned if I thought that Harry or Neville might end up in any way similar to Snape. So far, thankfully, it doesn't seem that JKR is taking either up that route. Harry, in OoP, has tantrums, takes his temper out on his friends, even shows a certain sadism at times. But this is clearly something he *struggles* with. And when feels guilty and ashamed for his bad behavior (or even uncharitable thoughts), he tries to modify the way he behaves. In fact, we see both Harry and Neville trying to overcome their failings. In this sense, they are both truly growing up. Do we see any such thing with Snape? For five years now, he is stuck in an obsessed, completely irrational resentment of Harry. Such is his resentment, that his venom spills over to Harry's friends. He has always displayed rank favoritism of Slytherins over Gryffindors. And we see no change in his behavior. We also have no hint that he is in any way reflexive about the way he behaves and hurts people around him. Does he ever think about his behavior? Does he have pangs of guilt about what he does to Neville, for instance? We see no indication for it. Abuse? Well, certainly early childhood abuse can cause lasting damage. The clearest manifestation of this in the books is Voldemort himself. So, Snape is horrible because he was abused and/or neglected as a small child. In the real world, I would not expect him "to get over it" - at least not without a good many years therapy. In JKR's world, however, we have Harry, who suffered terrible abuse and neglect for ten years, and yet is not morally defective because of it. We have Neville, who is finding self-confidence and courage after having it hammered out of him throughout his childhood. Even in Snape's case, we see that JKR gave him moral freedom - he did break out of the Evil rut, going against (I assume) a lifelong conditioning for the pure-blooded, Muggle-hating, Dark-Arts-Loving ideology. We have Sirius, who broke out of the same rut. In JKR's world, then, early childhood abuse doesn't determine who you will be. Naama From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 14:09:41 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:09:41 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101767 Alla wrote : > > Seriously, though, it will be a start. It will show that Snape > > can grow and change as a human being. Del replies : > I don't think Snape *cares* or *wants* to grow and change. I don't > think Snape sees a *need* for him to change. And I don't think he's > interested in becoming nicer : he doesn't seem to hold "nice" in > great esteem. SSSusan: Absolutely. I agree, Del. Snape doesn't care. Some posters here think that's fine & dandy; others are annoyed that he doesn't care. My take on Snape is that he is a good teacher in many ways, lousy in others, but that mostly he's an excellent potions master. I think Snape is one of those teachers who would do best with *really* talented students, more advanced ones, but gets greatly annoyed by "dunderheads" who don't get it, don't pay close attention, make mistakes. "Snape" and "remedial" are not two words I think would go well in the same sentence. :-) He is who he is. He doesn't CARE what others think or want of him, with the possible exception of DD. If DD actually EXPRESSED to Snape that he wanted him to change X, Y or Z, I do believe Snape would try. I don't think DD *has* said anything, though--unless it concerned the Occlumency, and we don't know yet if that's a possibility--so Snape continues on as he is: talented, enigmatic, snide, occasionally sadistic. "So be it," is probably his view. Alla wrote : > > Really, one of the reasons why I am so fed up with Snape's > > nursing his old grudges after OoP is because his character > > started to be come static. No change at all. Del replies : > Snape is an adult, and adults don't change that fast, especially > when they don't try to and if they have no good reason to do so. > Personally, I would be annoyed if Snape changed for no other reason > than because most readers don't like him the way he is. It would be > totally out of character : remember, people like Snape don't care > about others' opinion of them. SSSusan: Again, I think you're right. It would be totally out of character for Snape to do a 180 w/o some REALLY compelling reason. I suspect many, many fans would be annoyed w/ JKR were he to do so. If a compelling reason presented itself, I wouldn't mind a **little** change & growth in Severus, but what would that be, I wonder? Alla wrote : > > I wanted to applaud Snape, when at the end of GoF he showed his > > Mark to Fudge. Futile gesture? Maybe, but so courageous (true > > Gryffindor ":o)) and supportive of Harry, who just went through > > hell. Del replies : > I think your frustration comes from the fact that maybe you > misunderstood the real motive for Snape showing his Mark. You seem > to think he was supporting Harry ; I never saw anything like that. > The way I see it, Snape was trying to support *DD* and his cause, > but not Harry. SSSusan: It appears to be "I agree with Del day" for me. I took this as you did--support for DD--and an attempt to shock Fudge into facing facts. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 17 14:20:18 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:20:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] British V American Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101768 Being a southern girl from Tennessee with a DEEP southern accent - I LOVED reading the British vocabulary! I think it is such a wonderful culture and it is not like we are too stupid to tell what a "git" is - LOL :-) Gina - who agrees completely! I was just over at the movie list and saw something that almost made me cry before I was told it was a parody. An article talking about a WB tv series Harry Potter. They mentioned Americanizing the series for an American Audience. That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, that I would like to do away with the American edited version all together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. Am I the only one that feels this way? Jason Sorry if this belongs on the OT list. Please feel free to move it if you feel the need :-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 17 14:33:06 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:33:06 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote: > They invite the reader to use their discretion in how *they* interpret the > actions of characters; the author stands aside, it's all up to you. > > Lady Macbeth replied: > This is something I really enjoy in a book, and something I look forward to > seeing come out in the last two Harry Potter books. > Kneasy: So do many. Well, some. However, can you imagine the furore if this actually happened? Mostly from those that consider themselves Opinion Formers -a bunch of pontificating platitudinists that have elected them- selves as best able to determine what is acceptable and what isn't. "Inappropriate for a childrens book," they'll grump; "My seven year old grand-daughter was disappointed." Tough. Tell them to try it in another ten years. > Kneasy wrote: > There is yet another possibility; Harry defeats Voldy, then takes his > place. (He's his equal, remember; it doesn't say opposite. And what if the > transferred powers are corrupting Harry from within? He was certainly > unHarry-like in the last book.) > > Lady Macbeth replied: > Have you been reading my fics and not e-mailing me feedback?! :C LOL This > is one of the things I was thinking I would love to see Jo take an angle on > (or something similar to this idea) but it wouldn't sit well with a lot of > parents or publishers. ^_^; > > Kneasy wrote: > Or - Voldy is deposed by his own side as a hazard to their own health, let > alone anyone else's. > > Lady Macbeth replied: > Oh, I get it. You're taking lessons on getting in peoples' heads and you've > been inside my head this whole time. ~_^ > Kneasy: You'll have to accept the simultaneous discovery - otherwise known as the 'great minds think alike' theory, I'm afraid. I've never read any fan-fic nor visited any of the sites. Is that a shocking admission to make? I burbled on about Harry becoming the new Voldy last year; nobody agreed with me then, but it's nice to come across some-one with similar mental aberrations now. Comforting somehow. > Kneasy wrote: > I for one hope that the author has wider vision than most of us have, > wider than most of us can imagine. [...] it's a wish for something a bit > more intellectually daring, provocative even, than the standard fantasy > fare. Meat, not just potatoes. > Something to chew on. > > Lady Macbeth replied: > I'm sincerely looking forward to this too. I really, really, really want > these books to break the mold of what a "children's book should be" and be a > very powerful tale that will stand the test of time. > Kneasy: We all do. In fact she can be said to have broken the mold already. It's all down to what shape the new mold will be. Most fans are happy with the differences that have appeared so far, but are not so sure about further and more radical shifts in the genre. My hope is that she's creating what is a *new* sub-genre, it'll be that different. How realistic this is, I'm not so sure. Probably not very. But I can dream. And hope. And keep wondering - is it a children's book anyway? After all, Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Great Expectations, Little Dorritt, all tell the story of a child growing up - does that make them childrens books? From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 17 14:32:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:32:33 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101770 Dzeytoun: >>Lots of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his students' performance. I think this is largely speculation. I did an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that people regarded him as making students learn, etc. All the references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students learn, etc. << OOP ch 12 US 252 "...I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintaining the high-pass level I have come to expect from my O.W.L. students." Oblique confirmation that Snape's expectations are not unjustified comes from Tonks and McGonagall. Tonks had a hard time qualifiying as an Auror --evidently despite Snape's strictness about admission to NEWT potions, there's no shortage of candidates and the Auror office can afford to be selective. They haven't taken anyone on in the last three years, McGonagall says, so they must be fully staffed. Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 17 14:47:57 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:47:57 -0000 Subject: Fortifications at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101771 The movie scene where all the gates and massive locks come down throughout Hogwarts has me wondering how Hogwarts is protected, besides enchantments and spells. When reading POA I kept thinking, 'what, so DD sends 12 teachers out to search this massive castle and that's that?' We're told Voldemort stayed away from Hogwarts during the First War because Dumbledore was there, but maybe it was also too hard to get into as well. Then again, Sirius enters with ease. I guess that means Pettigrew did *not* divulge the secret of the tunnels in the First War, although surely Voldemort knows about them now. Gringotts, for instance, is protected by spells and enchantments, but has the additional protection of being underground and maze-like so people attempting to steal anything may die before finding the exit. It also possibly has dragons in the high-security area. Just curious about this, as it seems certain both Hogwarts and Privet Dr. will be attacked at some point. I know this isn't a new topic, but I wondered if the gates/locks in the movie were one of the 'clues' JKR had goosebumps about. Jen From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 17 14:46:36 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:46:36 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101772 JKR is an expert at inventing red herrings, I think everyone will agree. Her technique is to crowd the canvas with a huge number of details, so that we can't possibly tell which ones are important and which are just there to distract from the others. With two books to go, we can't right now tell which is which, but I'd be interested in knowing what other readers have, in their own minds, identified to their own satisfaction as red herrings. Of course, we're all going to have different ideas; somebody's red herring is bound to be someone else's absolutely essential clue. I'll start off with just one: Snape - I think that Snape is one vast red herring. Ron is perpetually voicing dark suspicions of him, and he is always on the scene to draw our eyes and make us overlook everything else. (And very effectively, too - he's one of the most entertaining and interesting characters in the books.) His role is never fully explained, so we can imagine it as more important than it really is. I think this happened a lot in OotP, from Mrs. Weasley's "He's just arrived" at Grimmauld Place to Sirius's grumbling about Snape being important and making reports and Harry's daring accusation of spying. I don't believe Snape is the important "He" that Molly was referring to, or the key player Sirius implies, but Snape is so compelling, he crowds out the other characters so that we miss what's REALLY going on. Wanda From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Jun 17 10:22:36 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:22:36 -0000 Subject: How JKR depicts how we all live in England (Was Re: British V American) In-Reply-To: <40D1F6E7.24981.258BC12@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101773 On 17 Jun 2004 at 9:13, Jospehine wrote: The other day I was at a champagne reception at one of our West End theatres and got talking to a lovely American woman who was visiting from New York. She was, luckily, a great HP fan and ultra friendly as most visitors are from the US. However, I got knocked for six when she asked me if I was caned when I was at school. I'm sure she was thinking about Harry's made up discipline at St. Brutus'. My eyes widened as I explained, very politely, that caning has been banned in the UK for quite some time. "Shaun Hately" wrote: But remember that the Harry Potter books are set in the past - not a long time in the past, but in the past nonetheless. Consider that Prisoner of Azkaban (where we get the mention of St. Brutus) is set in 1993. In 1992, while all state schools had been banned from using the cane for 6 years, and many private schools had also banned it, there were still a significant number of schools across the UK that were using the cane. It wasn't banned in private schools in Britain until 1998, and there were still at least 200 schools still using corporal punishment at the time of abolition across the UK. It's really doesn't seem that surprising that someone like Aunt Marge would be asking that type of question back in 1993. Josephine now: Good point! I hadn't thought about the time period. Thanks for that. But I think what I was more concerned about was the fact that this woman took the details in the HP books and applied them so easily to modern day England. Nevertheless, I was 14 in 1993 and I still think JKR's impression is a little inaccurate! From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu Jun 17 09:26:44 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:26:44 -0000 Subject: Result in Potion's class (was Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101774 Alla wrote: > I will be happy to change my opinions about Snape mmethods, but I > don't have canon to do so yet. Do we even know as someone asked > earlier that all Snape students pass the OWLS? Do we even know that > he is effective as a teacher, at least grade wise? Well, we have Tonks. With her clumsiness, she probably caused more problem than Neville. If she's Auror, she managed her NEWT, with Snape. In page 210 (ootp), he said: "I advice all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintening the high pass level I have come to expect from my OWL students" (Acceptable at least) I'm not english so maybe I didn't understood that well. Is it mean that he's used to obtain good result in the past? Page 323, Umbridge: "Well, the class seem fairly advanced for their level" Don't know what we could make of this. And I think that Snape doesn't like to be nice, in general or toward Gryffindor. When he makes something kinda nice, he continues with a malicious act or parole. Like in pOA, when he gave an alibi for the children. After he said that the trio is who attacked him, he could let it here, and let them have problems. But he immediatly said that he were under a confondus charm. There is this passage in PS too: "He didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times, he even wondered whether Snape was following, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible to Harry." When we thought that Snape was the bad guy, it seemed normal (Following + torture). But now, we know that he followed him to play the Guardian Angels, to not let a chance to Quirrel. And now it's strange. More he protected (protect ?) him, more he was (is ?) horrible to him. One could say it's a proof to his need for a psy presto. I think it's a attempt to refuse to like him. Like a way to say (to himself, to Dumbledore, to the readers ) "look! See? I don't like him, see how I mean to him! No I didn't help him, it was accidental, I'm horrible to him look! I absolutly don't care about him!" Like a way to put his finger in his ears and chant *Lalalalala, I don't hear you! I'm a monster, you can't say that I help him, lalalala!" He never brags about what he did in the first year. Without Quirrel, we'll never known it. Since when Snape is *modest* ? Christelle From allison_m_otto at lycos.com Thu Jun 17 12:59:25 2004 From: allison_m_otto at lycos.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:59:25 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: >it's only Americans that would > take "Blaise" for a girl's name. Or American non-Catholics :). Anyone who spent some time in Catholic school probably remembers having their throats blessed with crossed candles on the feast of St. Blaise, patron saint of diseases of the throat. I think I remember that he's supposed to have saved someone from choking. -Allison From darkthirty at shaw.ca Thu Jun 17 15:30:18 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:30:18 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101776 arrowsmithbt wrote: > My hope is that she's creating > what is a *new* sub-genre, it'll be that different.... > .... is it a children's book anyway? After > all, Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Great Expectations, Little Dorritt, all > tell the story of a child growing up - does that make them childrens books? But really, it's not a "genre" at all. It's a rather finely wrought method for Rowling to inscribe her social critique in the widest possible arc, and directed toward those who will appreciate it most, whether they are young or old. I read Dickens when I was in senior public school (ages 10 - 12 or so), a time when we, as human beings, start developing real self-consciousness. The Potter books really re- enact that process. The trappings of a magical world, the chrome, as it were, provide just enough distance from the quotidian for the critique to be effective. What is strange, though, is how some of that critique doesn't make it through, as if readers were able to pick and choose how thorough a critique they read. Gilderoy Lockhart is a sociopath - destroying people's memories. The memory erasure wizards who keep muggles blind to the magical world do pretty much the same thing, though they recieve no direct benefit from it, as sociopath Lockhart did, and are working for the state(s), which, ostensibly, represents all witchwizardom. But there are contortions involved - for example, those for whom the knowledge of a magical world wouldn't be such a stretch aren't necessarily those who do know about it, by agreement with the ministry involved - thinking of non- magical parents of Hogwarts students, say. The entrance of Dolores Umbridge came as a relief to many - here is an umabiguously "evil" character, someone for whom no sympathy need be reserved. But, in fact, as arguments about Snape's so-called irresponsible and unforgiving traits rage on the list, are we entirely without sympathy for her, truly? Isn't it possible that Rowling's social critique extends even there, and by doing so, asks just such a question? We laugh with those who enjoy Ron's clipclop sounds in the infirmary, but are unsettled at the same time that their, and our response really addresses nothing. It is all they can do, perhaps - revel in Umbridge's dishevelled, panicked state. Some on the list, Shaun in particular, have described feelings of horror in regard to school life, with reference to such teachers. But taser and handcuff equipped guards patrol the corridors of schools in the US as we speak, for example. In a symbolic reading, we could say that Umbridge, representing brute human will to power, needs a dose of that far greater, awesome, indifferent force of nature, understanding of which is represented by the centaurs, to set her right. But such a reading avoids the social implication of Umbridge, sets aside the social critique for a bit of fun. As the series draws closed, maybe these questions won't all be solved. Rowling's project doesn't seem focused on solving - the witchwizard/muggle world balance, the ethical implications of memory erasure, for instance - the state of the house elves - the house system of Hogwarts etc. etc. But even if it does, there are those for whom these questions have little to do with their own reading. That is what I don't understand. For me, the 1700 pages so far (or more, I forget) don't stand as foreplay to some vast orgasmic conclusion, but are, from start to finish, a creative act, a finely balanced, even enchanting (in offering ways out when there seem to be none) method for maintained social critique. I hope I've made sense here. Dan From laurens at leroc.net Thu Jun 17 11:36:45 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:36:45 -0000 Subject: Orphans? (was Re: Off the wall character question) In-Reply-To: <40D20ACA.24069.2A66B77@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > We're told that Sirius went to live with James' and his parents > after he ran away from home at age 16, so they were alive at that > point - and for some time after. Thanks for the quote, Shaun. :-) I'd quite forgotten that. It still makes me wonder where they are - and why Harry didn't ask after them (but, then, we know how he is for not asking questions...) Lauren. From antonia at timself.net Thu Jun 17 13:04:40 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:04:40 -0400 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... In-Reply-To: References: <1c8.1aad5641.2e0237c2@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040617090354.0225e938@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101778 Lynx412 at AOL.com: > And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was > in charge of his condition. > So, why wasn't it Madame Pomfrey's job to provide > Lupin with his potion and security, as she had in > the past? Barbara: > Just a thought, but maybe because Lupin the teacher was an adult and > responsible for himself (even though Snape was helping by brewing him the > potion), whereas Lupin the child was just that and it was then Pomfrey's > responsibility to make sure he was safe and secure. True, but it's *not* about helping *Lupin*, its about keeping the *rest* of the school safe and secure. Those children *are* her responsibility. Tana From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 15:57:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:57:39 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Dithering Defense Teacher of the Dark Arts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101779 If this posts twice, I apologize. My computer fuzzed up as I was trying to send it. I am trying to recreate it from memory. This should be fun. To the tune of the Yodeling Veteranarian of the Alps from the Veggietales series. To CMC (I loved your last two filks- tremendous!) The barbershop quartet, composed of Ron, Seamus, Dean and Neville serves as the narrator, singing from offstage. Other scenes as noted. QUARTET: Hmm, mmm. There lived man whose daring deeds Were literary quote. His dashing style, and charming smile, Of which Weekly took note. He took a job at Hogwarts school Where Potter did attend. He took the post (declined by most) 'Gainst the Dark Arts to defend. Whoa, oh... LOCKHART (in the classroom): This is a spell used for freezing pixies. They are from Cornwall And electric blue. But when I cast This spell on the pixies, They should be frozen For a day or two. Peskipixiepeskipixiepestermeno, Peskipixiepeskipixiepesterno. Peskipixiepeskipixiepestermeno, Peskipixiepeskipixiepesterno. HERMIONE: (to Harry) He's quite a brilliant teacher. No need to be so snide. This is just a textbook lecture With some practice on the side. QUARTET: Hmm, mmm. His helping reputation Caused the teachers all to duck. For anything that Lockhart touched Would surely run amok. Some would hide their cauldrons While others held their hearts In the vicinity of the Dithering Defense Teacher of the Dark Arts. Whoa, oh. HERMIONE: Good news on the pixies, Sir, They're caged and glowing. LOCKHART (on the Quidditch pitch): This is a spell for your broken forearm. It's hanging limply And a bit askew. But when I cast This spell on your forearm, It will feel better In a day or two. Ulnaradiulnaradiulnaregrow, Ulnaradiulnaradiulnagrow. Ulnaradiulnaradiulnaregrow, Ulnaradiulnaradiulnagrow. HERMIONE: It seems to have failed, Just a little bitty. Let's go and see the nurse, Maybe Pomphrey will have pity. QUARTET: Hmm, mmm. His ego grew, with much ado, Until that fateful day When little Ginny Weasley Met a serpentine delay. All gathered in the classroom The professors pooled their smarts. (Snape said) Go play! Your way! To the man who's the Dithering Defense Teacher of the Dark Arts. Whoa, oh.... HARRY (in the tunnel): Bad news on the monster, Sir, We're much too late. Six victims. Next one could be you. LOCKHART: This is a spell to remove your memory. Obliviation is my forte true. And when I cast This spell on your memory, You won't remember The last day or two. Memomemomemomemomemorygo, Memomemomemomemomem'rygo. Memomemomemomemomemorygo, Memomemomemomemomemr'ygo. HARRY: Oh, yeah, that sure did it. We're good. LOCKHART: Meme, memo, No, wait, this should work! meme, mememo... QUARTET: Hmm, mmm. Now the moral of the story, Was where Lockhart was waylaid: When you mess with people's memories Best make sure your wand's well made. LOCKHART: Meme, meme, mummy, mummy... QUARTET: Some would hide thier cauldrons While some would hold their hearts In the vicinity of the Dithering Defense Teacher of the Dark Arts. Ginger, who had hoped to filk a Barry Manilow tune today, as it is his birthday, but was uninspired. How do I know it's his birthday? It's mine too! Whee-hee! From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Jun 17 16:06:43 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:06:43 -0000 Subject: Fortifications at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101780 "Jen Reese" wrote: > The movie scene where all the gates and massive locks come down > throughout Hogwarts has me wondering how Hogwarts is protected, > besides enchantments and spells. When reading POA I kept > thinking, 'what, so DD sends 12 teachers out to search this massive > castle and that's that?' --------- Arya: I was intrigued by the lock-down mode Hogwarts seemed to go into in the film and I even thought, if that is indeed how it occurs and that it was a directorial creation, then it might have been something Jo considered as "foreshadowing". Also, as far as just a few teachers available to search the castle, I think we might also assume portraits and possibly other 'sentient' beings can help with this. ---------- > Jen Reese: > We're told Voldemort stayed away from Hogwarts during the First War > because Dumbledore was there, but maybe it was also too hard to get > into as well. Then again, Sirius enters with ease. I guess that > means Pettigrew did *not* divulge the secret of the tunnels in the > First War, although surely Voldemort knows about them now. > > Gringotts, for instance, is protected by spells and enchantments, > but has the additional protection of being underground and maze- like > so people attempting to steal anything may die before finding the > exit. It also possibly has dragons in the high-security area. ----- -------- Arya: Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps Hogwarts, to an intruder with evil intents, can become a maze? With all those moving staircases (designed by Rowena Ravenclaw to help protect Hogwarts if I recall my chocolate frog card of her) will effect either a maze or a trap if they are in a "defensive" mode? The way suits of armour have heads that swivel as they hear a noise and that, IIRC, sang cristmas carols, may mean that they may jump to attention if someone unauthorized to be in the castle is seen. I'm of the belief that Hogwarts has mnay more eyes and ears than just those that can be seen. ----------- > Jen Reese: > Just curious about this, as it seems certain both Hogwarts and > Privet Dr. will be attacked at some point. I know this isn't a new > topic, but I wondered if the gates/locks in the movie were one of > the 'clues' JKR had goosebumps about. ----------- Arya: It's my guess that if the lock down gates were not explicitly explained by Jo to the film staff as the way it was in the beginning, then, I think this was indeed a shivery foreshadowing in its accuracy. Heck, even I kind of got a sense of the chills watching it. There's just something so powerful and....*heartening* to see the power that is Hogwarts come to life to protect herself. ~Arya From jodel at aol.com Thu Jun 17 16:08:27 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:08:27 -0000 Subject: another Ginevra sighting In-Reply-To: <001c01c453f5$785f9740$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > Didn't JKR say that she's a fan of Agatha Christie? > I just picked up one of our AC volumes and it hit me. In the Poirot novel > Still, if JKR is an AC fan, she could've seen the name there and just liked it. > > Alina. I'm more likely to credit Noel Streatfield's "Ginny and Ginevra" (Geneva?) books. Streatfield was a very popular author of children's books and those came out about the time Rowling was in school. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 17 16:54:02 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:54:02 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: <20040616220253.85227.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101783 > moonmyyst: > We know that James and Lily were not exactly on friendly term when the OWLs took place but married not too long afterward. We also know that there is more to the Evan's family than we know. There are many pieces to a puzzle. I think that HP is going to have to figure out the puzzle pieces and that is going to give him the "weapon" to go against LV. What those pieces are keep staying just out of reach. They will come together in Book 7. < boyd: I've been giving this some thought lately, too, and three things bother me. 1) Lilly didn't seem fond of James in the flashback, yet they married. 2) James "put up a courageous fight", but no word of what he was fighting for. 3) Why Harry? Why not someone else? Why is he so special? Aaargh, this part just puzzles me. I can only guess at some storylines, so here's a couple *very* off-the-wall thoughts. * Harry is the *one* who can defeat LV simply because LV chose him to be the last killing or possession or whatever for LV to gain eternal life. LV already did part of the spell and needed only to kill Harry to complete it, and that's why they're connected psychically. And that's the only thing that has kept LV from gaining eternal life--he has to finish the spell with Harry, no one else will work now that the process was begun. * And maybe James was secretly a Voldie supporter who was going to hand over his son willingly. That's why he made Pettigrew the secret-keeper; he knew Pettigrew would tell LV where to come to get the boy. LV attacked James unexpectedly and James died fighting to save himself. Then good Lilly died protecting Harry. * Or if you can't believe that of James (and this may sound a little convoluted) maybe James was anti-Voldie from the start but LV thought he was his spy/agent. LV believed James was sacrificing his son to LV, but James instead hid Harry in Godric's Hollow *after* LV started the spell. But Pettigrew was a turncoat, so LV found and killed James, then tried to kill Harry but Lilly died protected him. This could explain *why* Harry (and why LV wanted the full prophecy, and why LV didn't die--he was already connected to Harry), but it's just one possibility. Has anyone come up with other reasons why it has to be Harry? boyd From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 17 17:09:47 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:09:47 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101784 In an earlier post I said: > * And maybe James was secretly a Voldie supporter who was going to > hand over his son willingly. That's why he made Pettigrew the > secret-keeper; he knew Pettigrew would tell LV where to come to get > the boy. LV attacked James unexpectedly and James died fighting to > save himself. Then good Lilly died protecting Harry. < If you didn't like that, then don't read this. * Or maybe after LV started the eternal-life spell using Harry, James took him to Godric's Hollow, where *James* intended to kill him before LV could finish the spell, thereby either killing Voldemort or at least preventing him from ever becoming unkillable. Then LV shows up and kills both James and Lilly before the deed is done, but not before Lilly protects Harry with old magic. I know, I know, ewwww. But is defeating LV worth one life? When it will prevent countless deaths and save the WW? Does the end justify the means--maybe it did to James.... boyd From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 17:27:24 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:27:24 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > > > Neri wrote: > > > > Just, say, going for less painful > > memories at start > > Christelle: > > "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at > leisure. Toughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be > perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing > [...]It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency > are able, under, certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their > victims and to interpret their finding correctly." > > Who said that Snape could *choose* the memories? Annemehr: It seems certain to me that Snape was able to choose to call up *painful* memories in general. Otherwise, we would have seen plenty of random boring and happy memories mixed in: Harry brushing his teeth, Harry doing homework, Harry flying... And yes, Cho kissing Harry was a painful memory (at least in part) because of how extremely uneasy he felt at the time. I don't mean this as an argument against the way Snape taught Occlumency (obviously, Harry would have more motivation to repel Snape when the memories were painful). It's more a point about what Legilimency might be able to do. Annemehr From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jun 17 17:31:17 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:31:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question for Snape Bashers Message-ID: <20.2c26822e.2e032f65@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101786 In a message dated 6/17/04 8:34:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: >We are concerned for Neville and Harry because we agree that abuse can cause lasting damage, meaning symptoms that persist even in the face of powerful incentives to change. These symptoms may include paradoxical effects like sadism and inappropriate aggression. We agree it would not be realistic to deal with abuse in the novels and not show these effects. Why, then, are Snape's sadism and inappropriate aggression not read as the realistic results of abuse? If abuse causes lasting damage, why expect that Snape should have gotten over it? Pippin< I am not a Snape basher, I think that Snape, Harry and Remus will have to work together to ultimately defeat Voldemort, Neville will help also, but I am not sure that he will have to do more or less than the others. Having said that, Snape is in a position of authority, and he abuses that authority in that he bullies both Harry and Neville. Snape was abused by his parents, I don't know enough of the story behind the relationship between Snape, James, Sirius, Peter and Remus to say that one is more at fault for the enmity. I need more information. Never said that Snape had to get over it, just not take it out on children who had nothing to do with what happened before. Batchevra ( who needs more time in the day to read the posts) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jun 17 17:44:33 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:44:33 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101787 "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > JKR is an expert at inventing red herrings, I think everyone will > agree. Her technique is to crowd the canvas with a huge number of > details, so that we can't possibly tell which ones are important and > which are just there to distract from the others. With two books to > go, we can't right now tell which is which, but I'd be interested in > knowing what other readers have, in their own minds, identified to > their own satisfaction as red herrings. Of course, we're all going > to have different ideas; somebody's red herring is bound to be > someone else's absolutely essential clue. I'll start off with just > one: > > Snape - I think that Snape is one vast red herring. Ron is > perpetually voicing dark suspicions of him, and he is always on the > scene to draw our eyes and make us overlook everything else. (And > very effectively, too - he's one of the most entertaining and > interesting characters in the books.) His role is never fully > explained, so we can imagine it as more important than it really > is. I think this happened a lot in OotP, from Mrs. Weasley's "He's > just arrived" at Grimmauld Place to Sirius's grumbling about Snape > being important and making reports and Harry's daring accusation of > spying. I don't believe Snape is the important "He" that Molly was > referring to, or the key player Sirius implies, but Snape is so > compelling, he crowds out the other characters so that we miss > what's REALLY going on. Ally: Well - red herring means, in my mind, is something that is made to seem important when it really isn't. I think Snape will still be important to the stories, so I'm not sure if I'd call him an actual red herring. He's still Harry's biggest nemesis, he has some involvement with Sirius that is yet to be explained and JKR said would be, and we're told by JKR that she can't reveal certain things about him - his boggart, his patronus, why DD trusts him - because it would ruin the stories. So, I do think he will be important to the stories. BUT, I see what you're saying. I do think JKR uses him at times to draw our focus away from other characters, like she clearly did with Quirrel in SS. But I don't think he is a total red herring to the books. Now, Mark Evans - that's another story, if you ask me. ;) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 17 17:47:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:47:33 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101788 > Annemehr: > It seems certain to me that Snape was able to choose to call up > *painful* memories in general. Otherwise, we would have seen plenty of > random boring and happy memories mixed in: Harry brushing his teeth, > Harry doing homework, Harry flying... > > And yes, Cho kissing Harry was a painful memory (at least in part) > because of how extremely uneasy he felt at the time. > > I don't mean this as an argument against the way Snape taught > Occlumency (obviously, Harry would have more motivation to repel Snape > when the memories were painful). It's more a point about what > Legilimency might be able to do. > Potioncat: Well, could he go straight to certain memories or not? How would you look for a memory you didn't know about? First off, we just don't know. Second, we should go back to the Occlumency lessons and see if Snape directed the conversation before the session. It seems to me, that those thoughts on the surface would be the ones that would be seen. If Harry could empty his mind, Snape wouldn't see them. Being around Snape gave him unhappy feelings which most likely, made upleasant memories available. Had Lupin been teaching the lesson, perhaps pleasant memories would come up. (I am of course, making my best guess.) Along that line, Snape would probably think that LV is not going to present a warm comfortable setting for Harry to work his skills, so why should he? Potioncat (just wondering about all this) From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 17 18:03:26 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:03:26 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101789 > Ally: > Now, Mark Evans - that's another story, if you ask me. ;) < boyd: I'll take red herrings for $200, Alex. The answer is "all schoolwork." And for $400, the answer is "SHIPping." From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 17 18:13:52 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:13:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter Pettigrew, questions and commentary and another question References: <1087412144.24151.57203.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000901c45496$d933e160$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 101790 Thus Kneasy: >If you're really devious..... Always open to a bit of deviosity... >Peter tipped off Fudge *and* made sure Sirius knew where he was. >The 'confrontation' was staged on ground of Peter's choosing; he already >knew what he was going to do, how he was going to escape, leaving >Sirius carrying the can. > >Whether Fudge was actually in on it or a dupe is problematical. IMO given >his track record, this is yet something else he wouldn't be comfortable >answering questions about. Unless Peter tells us, we shall doubtless never know. Fudge would certainly reply "Acting on information received that a senior Death Eater was loose at .... (location), we proceeded to the scene and apprehended one Sirius Black, Secret Keeper for the Potters and therefore guilty of revealing their location to one T M Riddle alias Lord, um, Thingy. His guilt on this and also his wilful murder of one Peter Pettigrew was confirmed by eyewitnesses whose memories we have conveniently erased and he was removed to Azkaban Prison for indefinite detention." and who could deny that? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 17 18:20:48 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:20:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101791 | From: dumbledore11214 | Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 22:06 PM | | [Alla wrote]: | I can absolutely buy Snape's grudge against James, definitely, but | not against Harry. | | Well, at least Harry stands up for himself most of the times. | | | Neville, on the other hand.... What, what exactly did he do to Snape? | As far as we know his parents did not bully Snape at school. :) | Oh, I know... he is "incompetent" and Snape cannot stand | incompetence, right? | | Well, you know what, in this situation "look at the teacher first" is | definitely in order, IMO. | | Especially since we all know that Neville was always "competent" in | Herbology and he became much more confident in DADA after OoP. Who | was the teacher? Harry. | | | I guess fifteen year old can teach better than Snape does. :o) [Lee]: Yeah, Alla, and I can agree from personal experience. :-) And, what was the thing Neville feared in POA? Uh...well...Snape! And Lupin didn't laugh or criticize him for that, either. Lupin just helped him create a very funny image for the Riddikulus charm. What I'm getting at is that trying to learn from someone who terrifies you and makes you feel small may work for some folk; for others, especially sensitive types, such humiliations on the part of a teacher are more likely to cause the student to (1) withdraw and close down; (2) fight back. There be my knut in the pot. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 18:25:37 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:25:37 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101792 > boyd: > > I've been giving this some thought lately, too, and three things > bother me. 1) Lilly didn't seem fond of James in the flashback, yet > they married. 2) James "put up a courageous fight", but no word of > what he was fighting for. 3) Why Harry? Why not someone else? Why is > he so special? Aaargh, this part just puzzles me. > > I can only guess at some storylines, so here's a couple *very* > off-the-wall thoughts. > > * Harry is the *one* who can defeat LV simply because LV chose him to > be the last killing or possession or whatever for LV to gain eternal > life. LV already did part of the spell and needed only to kill Harry > to complete it, and that's why they're connected psychically. And > that's the only thing that has kept LV from gaining eternal life-- he > has to finish the spell with Harry, no one else will work now that > the process was begun. SOF: 1) Lily eventually married James because he changed. He got over himself and started behaving like a better person. Why hasn't been revealed, but hey, people mature. 2)James put up a courageous to save his family. Otherwise, why bother telling Lily to run with Harry? He was trying to protect them. This is easily extrapolated from the shreds of information about that fateful day that are seeded throughout the series. 3) Harry is the one because Voldemort chose to attack him. There were only two choices: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. For his own reasons, which Dumbledore suggests was a subconcious identification to the half-blood child, Voldemort decided that Harry was the prophesied "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." The incidental result of his attack was the gifting of Harry with that power. If Voldemort had attacked Neville, that boy would the one. Voldemort wasn't killed by the AK backfire because he had been performing experiments on himself for years in an attempt to make himself impervious to death. He doesn't know if he succeeded entirely, but he managed to survive the AK. I don't get this spell business. LV wasn't doing a spell with Harry. Their link comes from the AK backfire when Harry was a baby. From madaxe at starspath.com Thu Jun 17 18:33:10 2004 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:33:10 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Ally: > > Now, Mark Evans - that's another story, if you ask me. ;) Yes. Mark Evans is just way too convenient - a kid who's about to be eleven walking around Little Whinging with Lily's surname? Other than Harry, there's no documented witches or wizards in Little Whinging anyway. (5:8 "The Hearing") He seems a pretty harmless red herring - one who takes up our speculation time, but isn't meant as an actual cover for anything. Normally, a red herring is meant to distract from the real thing - which in this case would be another living magical relative of Harry's. Riiiight. This harmless brand of red herring is what gives me the most confidence in Lupin's survival, because the silver hand may be that sort of red herring (as per The Goblet in 5:5) rather than a distraction from a real threat. Damned if I can name any other example of such a herring, though. And that hand is unquestionably a gun over the mantelpiece - though, as the author of "Creating Plot" said, "it's not yet clear whether that gun will be used for homicide, suicide or cracking Brazil nuts." From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 17 18:57:49 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:57:49 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > > 1) Lily eventually married James because he changed. He got over > himself and started behaving like a better person. Why hasn't been > revealed, but hey, people mature. Did he really change that much, though? When Harry asks Sirius and Lupin, they admit that he kept on fighting with Snape, despite Lily: "Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" "And my mum was OK with that?" "She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth," said Sirius. So he hid it from her. How well did she really know James, even by the time they married? I have a vague memory of one of C.S. Lewis's science fiction books (someone can tell me which one it is - it involves Merlin travelling in time to the present day). There's a married couple in it, and though they don't know it, they are destined to produce a child who is to save the world. Only they're not very happy, and the wife has refused to have children, with the result that the moment to conceive this child has passed, and the moment is gone forever. When right after "Snape's Worst Memory," Harry is thinking over how his mother seemed to hate his father, he wonders if James somehow forced Lily into marriage. Maybe there's something to that: perhaps theirs wasn't a love-match, but more of a political marriage, to produce this miracle child who would fulfill prophecies and defeat Voldemort. It's a bit of a dicey subject for kids to read, though - almost like selective mating, but if Rowling wants to push the envelope in literature, this would be one way! Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 17 19:21:23 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:21:23 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brassgryphon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" > wrote: > > He seems a pretty harmless red herring - one who takes up our > speculation time, but isn't meant as an actual cover for anything. > Normally, a red herring is meant to distract from the real thing - > which in this case would be another living magical relative of > Harry's. Riiiight. > I think another one might be Trelawney. It's not that she's totally useless to the plot, but I think the attention paid to her "seer" qualities and her occasional prophecies might be to draw attention away from the genuine seers - the Centaurs. They're a very enigmatic presence at the moment, but I think they might to be more important than just as a source of discord in the WW. Centaurs are traditionally seers, and in fact, Rowling does introduce that theme, but in a less than fully-formed manner (i.e., we get some mysterious references to Mars being bright, and then Firenze give the students some rather inconclusive lessons). It's just my hunch - but I think this could be where the real prophecies may be found, and Trelawney is a cover for it. Wanda From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 17 19:39:21 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:39:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie References: Message-ID: <010601c454a2$c9f0c090$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101797 > Hi Valky Here! long time absentee list member.. > > I assume this reason for this post has to do with the JKR interview > in which she, and I am not quoting just paraphrasing, said that the > audience would be treated to interesting tidbits of clue in POA the > movie even one which we would recognise as portends to books 6 7 and > 8. Yay!!! > Valky Erm, as much as I would love for your enthusiasm to be prophetic, I'm afraid the books will stop at 7, for the number of years in Hogwarts. Alina. From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 19:39:13 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:39:13 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101798 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > > > In Greek mythology, Argus was a hundred-eyed herdsman or servant of > > Hera. When Zeus seduced Io, he changed her into a cow to in an > > unsuccessful attempt to deceive Hera. Hera asked Zeus for the cow > and set Argus to guard bovine-Io. Zeus then had Hermes kill Argus to > free Io. > Then Valky: > Hasnt there been some threads investigating the link between > Hermione's name and the Greek Mythology of Hermes. If this, and the > above parrallel, is apt , and I am quite sure it very well could be, > it would imply that Hermione has been managing to keep many more > secrets from us than we know. > That Hermione is good at keeping secrets IS canon, so about the > spell on Argus' eyes, could our very "brightest witch of her age" > put a spell on him to protect her friends sometime early in the > story that we dont know about. > Also Hermione is the resident history expert so I suspect she > already has made an accurate guess to herself who IO/Norris is she's > just not telling.... and speculating the reason for that is the best > clue we have to the nature of what exctly Mr Norris is. Also I will > be investigating Hermiones few interactions with Mrs Norris in the > books to scour for more. More Eustace_Scrubb: A Hermione/Hermes connection would make this yet more interesting. I'll look forward to what you discover. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 17 19:41:05 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:41:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fishing for ideas References: Message-ID: <010e01c454a3$08736840$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101799 > Just curious, but what book does he say that in? I'm rereading GOF for the > 3rd or 4th time and then onto OOTP for just my second time, so if it's in > the last book I wouldn't remember anyway. > > Thanks! > > Barbara He says it, or rather his words are related to Harry by one of the twins, in OOP, when Harry's at 12 Grimmauld Place for the first time and they're discussing how DD's been stripped of most of his titles and honours. Alina. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 17 19:54:18 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:54:18 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101800 My responses are sprinkled throughout. Sorry, I know this format is always a pain! > SOF wrote: > 1) Lily eventually married James because he changed. He got over > himself and started behaving like a better person. Why hasn't been > revealed, but hey, people mature. Boyd: Canon doesn't actually demonstrate James changing, does it? So let's see which of our beliefs are HP-facts and which are assumptions/hopes. > SOF wrote: > 2)James put up a courageous to save his family. Otherwise, why bother > telling Lily to run with Harry? He was trying to protect them. This > is easily extrapolated from the shreds of information about that > fateful day that are seeded throughout the series. Boyd: While I agree that it's more likely James was good, I'm merely pointing out that it's still possible that he was, at least initially, involved with LV. Do I believe this? No. But in the interest of weighing all the alternatives, there it is. > SOF wrote: > 3) Harry is the one because Voldemort chose to attack him. There were > only two choices: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. For his own > reasons, which Dumbledore suggests was a subconcious identification > to the half-blood child, Voldemort decided that Harry was the > prophesied "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." The > incidental result of his attack was the gifting of Harry with that > power. If Voldemort had attacked Neville, that boy would the one. Yes, you have stated the commonly-held opinion, but it's not canon. I'm again pointing out that we don't really *know* why Harry is the one. Maybe it is because he's the one LV attacked and his mother defended...or maybe it's something else. And if there's something interesting left to learn about what happened that day at GH (and I believe there is, although no canon yet), then here's one alternative. There have to be others. Anyone? > SOF wrote: > Voldemort wasn't killed by the AK backfire because he had been > performing experiments on himself for years in an attempt to make > himself impervious to death. He doesn't know if he succeeded > entirely, but he managed to survive the AK. Once again, we have no canon either way. Could be meat, could be cake. :) Your statement is what I initially assumed, but I feel there must be more to the GH/scar/prophecy triumvirate than we know. > SOF wrote: > I don't get this spell business. LV wasn't doing a spell with Harry. > Their link comes from the AK backfire when Harry was a baby. Yes, this "eternal life" spell is just a theory, but why did LV care about some mere baby? Isn't he the all-powerful Lord Voldemort? So what if some prophecy said something about the kid maybe being his equal. Isn't he almost at immortality yet? Why not send a dozen DEs to do the deed? Why not tend to that after he takes over the whole WW? No, I think there's a reason, and maybe it's that Harry was the key to his long quest for immortality. Further, and as my best canonical defence, we still have no clue why a rebounding AK would forge a link between the two. I'm simply supposing there was already a link there as the beginning of some eternal life spell or something. Clearly, there's something we don't know yet. Something big. Something that has to do with why Harry's the one, and why Harry is linked to LV, and what happened at GH. What is it? Hmmmm. boyd From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 20:03:39 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:03:39 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Annemehr: > > It seems certain to me that Snape was able to choose to call up > > *painful* memories in general. Otherwise, we would have seen > plenty of > > random boring and happy memories mixed in: Harry brushing his > teeth, > > Harry doing homework, Harry flying... > > > > And yes, Cho kissing Harry was a painful memory (at least in part) > > because of how extremely uneasy he felt at the time. > > > > I don't mean this as an argument against the way Snape taught > > Occlumency (obviously, Harry would have more motivation to repel > Snape > > when the memories were painful). It's more a point about what > > Legilimency might be able to do. > > > Potioncat: > Well, could he go straight to certain memories or not? How would > you look for a memory you didn't know about? Annemehr: I can't say if Snape could go straight to any specific memory. I do think he was able to call up memories of a certain *type,* that is, painful ones. Potioncat: > First off, we just don't know. Second, we should go back to the > Occlumency lessons and see if Snape directed the conversation before > the session. It seems to me, that those thoughts on the surface > would be the ones that would be seen. If Harry could empty his > mind, Snape wouldn't see them. Being around Snape gave him unhappy > feelings which most likely, made upleasant memories available. Had > Lupin been teaching the lesson, perhaps pleasant memories would come > up. (I am of course, making my best guess.) Annemehr: That's a good point, that facing Snape, Harry would be in an unhappy mood and thus unhappy memories would be nearer the surface. However, not all the memories we saw could have been surface ones. The one of Ripper chasing Harry up a tree -- Harry hadn't seen Ripper for over two years. The one about being jealous about Dudley's new tricycle Harry didn't even remember he had. If Snape were only seeing memories called up by the superficial feelings of Harry's mind, I wouldn't have expected those distant, deeper ones. Of course, I too am merely making my best guess and can't be sure. Potioncat: > Along that line, Snape would probably think that LV is not going to > present a warm comfortable setting for Harry to work his skills, so > why should he? > > Potioncat (just wondering about all this) Annemehr: Well, there we agree! From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jun 17 20:12:36 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:12:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius: stupid, afraid or both? Was: Snape thought Lucius was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101802 > Pippin wrote: > You're overlooking something. Voldemort thinks that the > prophecy contains information on how to destroy him. He daren't > go after it himself, but he can't send anyone but his most trusted > lieutenants to bring it to him. > > I agree that if Snape knows Malfoy was a DE but thought he was > under Imperius, then Malfoy probably knows that Snape was a > DE too. But in that case maybe he thinks they have a > deal--Snape will keep Malfoy supplied with scuttlebut about > Hogwarts (as a member of the Hogwarts Board of Governors, > Malfoy would find that useful) and Malfoy won't mention to anyone > that Snape was a DE. That would fit with the lapdog comment, > wouldn't it? Of course once Malfoy got kicked off the Board, he wouldn't need Snape anymore, except that he's Draco's Head of House. Which would give Snape a good reason to suck up to Draco all the > time. Mandy Here: I don't think Snape believes Malfoy was under the Imperious anymore than anyone else does. With the exception of Fudge. I don't think Lucius can blackmail Snape. As Lucius and Snape both know they were each DE, and both, one way or another, got off scott free after the first war. I don't think Lucius would have to keep Snape quiet, any more than Snape has to keep Lucius quiet. They are in a sense black mailing each other, if that is possible. They have a stalemate situation, where both are greasing each other's palms to keep each other happy. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into a relationship that doesn't actually exist? ;-) I just think there is something to that Lapdog comment, and having Snape working LV through Malfoy, connects the three characters together nicely and gives Snape an interesting obstacle to overcome in book 6 with Lucius in Azkaban. It begs the question; will DD need to get Malfoy out of prison to enable his solider to maintain his dangerous but essential link to information about LV? And while I do see your point about Voldemort needing his most trusted servants to go after the prophecy, I still think it was a really big mistake to put all his most trusted in the same place at the same time. Still I suppose Voldemort has to make the same mistake all evil overlords make and that is to continue to believe they are invincible even in the face of complete failure. You've go to give him credit for trying I suppose. Cheers Mandy From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 20:14:09 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:14:09 -0000 Subject: centaurs (was Re: Red Herrings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101803 Wanda: > I think another one might be Trelawney. It's not that she's totally > useless to the plot, but I think the attention paid to her "seer" > qualities and her occasional prophecies might be to draw attention > away from the genuine seers - the Centaurs.... >It's just my hunch - but I think > this could be where the real prophecies may be found, and Trelawney > is a cover for it. Janelle: I think you're on to something with this. The last time I read SS it popped out to me when Firenze I believe is was said something like 'it is always the innocent who are the first victims' you can read this as surface of it will be innocent people in general or you can see it as more specific 1) sirius. i know he wasn't the 'first' to die but he was close. He spent the last twelve years of his life locked in azkaban for a crime he was wrongly acused of- he was innocent. 2) cedric, the first to die literally, could be seen as innocent in a way as well, or at least falsely accused of being a bad/useless person. First by ron just because he beat gryffindor at quidditch, then by harry for dating cho, the girl he liked. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 20:37:31 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:37:31 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wisteria053" wrote: > Alla "dumbledore11214" wrote: > snip > I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that > different at all. > > "Jason" wrote: > snip > I havent read any of the British versions of the books > but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become > accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. > snip > > > As an American living in London these past 15 years, I understood > that the first book had many more amendments than the later ones. I > think the books are British, so leave them that way. > > "wisteria053" Susan now: I totally agree with you, Wisteria. If they're British, then so be it. I've had to read (English Major) lots and lots of old stuff, and as a MA student, the stuff just kept getting older and weirder, but I was supposed to nonetheless figure out what's going on (my two best examples are Tristram Shandy and Swift's "A Modest Proposal" though I could produce plenty more). Point being, person that I am, I found it really interesting. Then when I started toying with fanfic, being an American, and wanting to remain faithful to JKR's stories and characters, I looked up detailed maps of London, the UK in general, Eng-Am dictionaries (including slang)...all kinds of stuff that made reading/writing HP stuff even more fun. And OT I know, though only slightly, but I have an Xbox and play live (well, not live, but you know...)golf with people from all over the place, including the UK. Even that's more fun, just because I now know what they mean when people say "All right," or "I'm bloody pissed." Further, I remember watching Bugs Bunny as a kid, and constantly having to go ask my dad to tell me what the heck a dance card is, etc., etc. Made the cartoons even more fun, but that's just me ;-) http://www.effingpot.com/slang.shtml http://english2american.com/index.html#index Susan (who hopes these links work) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jun 17 20:58:24 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:58:24 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: <20040617002908.42781.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101807 > Jason wrote: > That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. > Throughout the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, that I would like to do away with the American edited version all together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. > Alla wrote: > No, you are not the only one. I bought the British version of PoA and really did not feel that different at all. > > > moonmyyst wrote: > Add another vote to that!! Yes, there are some British things (in the US books) that we have to look up (and then go..DUH!!) but that only makes people want to find out more. Especially my kids. Mandy here: I would love to know which of you are British? I'm a Brit who has lived in the US for 15 years. I read the American versions first, loved them! Including the illustrations! But this year I got the British editions for the first time. I feel there is a very big difference. But I'm not sure if I can explain what it is. It feels to me, as I'm reading the UK books, that I am more at home. Some how more comfortable and the story fits in my memory and my perception of the UK easier. The language sits on my tongue better too. There aren't big changes, but many small, subtle, little ones that make up to a big difference that is very subtle. The obvious changes have been discussed before and can actually be found on the Lexicon for those who are interested. But the subtle ones are things like the Weasly's. Their regionalisms seem more pronounced in the British editions, where they are toned down in the US books. Is this true? I haven't compared them page for page yet, but many time whilst I'm read I think to myself `that's different,' but I'm too caught up in the story to get out the US book and search for the same page. ;-) The way sentences are constructed differ to. The American editors will change a sentence or paragraph around, so it makes sense in American, not to change its meaning, but it does change it flow. The only other way I can explain what I'm experiencing is, when I read a poem or book that has been translated from one language to another and there are sometimes 2 or 3 different translations of the same thing, each translation is different and speaks to me in a different way. While Harry Potter is not strictly speaking being translated, they are being changed from one version of English to another. It dose make a difference, it really does and I think that difference might speak to some of you out there. It did to me. And I don't think this is something everybody will get, perhaps only the ex-pats like me who miss their land of their birth. Have any of the other Brits out there read the American versions like I have? What do think? To be honest I can't imagine why anyone in the UK would read the US versions. Not to sound snobby, but would an American in America read a British version of Hemingway or Steinbeck? Probably not, as there would be no point, other than simple curiosity. The stories are the same, of course and you find any new clues. But since beginning the UK editions 2 weeks ago I would now do something I would never have dreamed of doing before, and that is strongly recommend that EVERYONE read the original, British Editions. After all, it is the language Rowling wrote them in and the only way to truly experience exactly what she wrote. And for you English speakers out there, it's easily done. You don't have to learn another language to do it. ;-) Cheers Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 21:16:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:16:50 -0000 Subject: Red Herrings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brassgryphon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" > wrote: > > "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > Ally: > > > > > Now, Mark Evans - that's another story, if you ask me. ;) > brassgryphon: > Yes. Mark Evans is just way too convenient - a kid who's about to > be eleven walking around Little Whinging with Lily's surname? > Other than Harry, there's no documented witches or wizards in > Little Whinging anyway. (5:8 "The Hearing") Geoff: I did point out in message 85255 that it is quite possible to have relatives of whom you have no knowledge who are fairly close (in genealogical terms). I quoted an instance of finding a second cousin a few years ago for the first time. As for no wizards being documented in the Little Whinging area, at around the same time as my long analysis, other folk pointed out that it would be possible for an underage wizard to be in an area without the knowledge of the MoM and that it was only when Hogwarts letters went out that they would become cognisant of the fact. From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 21:27:16 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:27:16 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101809 This may be a dumb question (i know, i know there are no dumb questions...) but anyways, i've decided that i definitely do want to read some of the british versions of the books but i'm not sure if i need to read all of them or just the first few, I believe i read somewhere, most likely on this list somewhere that there aren't nearly as many changes in the more recent books. so are books 4 and 5 still 'americanized' or are they basically the same as the british versions? Thanks for your help. Janelle From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 21:28:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:28:52 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Mandy: > I would love to know which of you are British? I'm a Brit who has > lived in the US for 15 years. I read the American versions first, > loved them! Including the illustrations! But this year I got the > British editions for the first time. > > I feel there is a very big difference. But I'm not sure if I can > explain what it is. > > It feels to me, as I'm reading the UK books, that I am more at home. > Some how more comfortable and the story fits in my memory and my > perception of the UK easier. The language sits on my tongue better > too. There aren't big changes, but many small, subtle, little ones > that make up to a big difference that is very subtle. Geoff: Following up Mandy's comment, one thing which I personally find with American books is that I often feel that I'm in a different culture because of the spelling - the substitution of "z" for "s" in, say, "realise" and the dropping of the "u" in a word like "colour". I don't find the replacing of words such as lift/elevator, saloon/sedan, boot/trunk too jarring, strangely enough. Bearing in mind that JKR is English and wrote initially for an English audience, I feel that the Americanising of the text probably damages the English (or UK) ambience of the story. After all, do you have American versions of Shakespeare or Dickens? From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 17 21:55:11 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:55:11 -0000 Subject: centaurs (was Re: Red Herrings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101811 > Janelle: > Firenze I believe said something like 'it is always the innocent who are the first victims'. > 1) sirius. > 2) cedric. And how about Ginny? Or Harry? Or Lilly? From t.forch at email.dk Thu Jun 17 22:46:37 2004 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:46:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040618003255.01eac9c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 101812 At 21:28 17-06-04 +0000, Geoff Bannister wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" >wrote: > > > > It feels to me, as I'm reading the UK books, that I am more at > > home. Some how more comfortable and the story fits in my memory > > and my perception of the UK easier. The language sits on my > > tongue better too. There aren't big changes, but many small, subtle, > > little ones that make up to a big difference that is very subtle. > >Geoff: >I feel that the Americanising of the text probably damages the >English (or UK) ambience of the story. After all, do you have >American versions of Shakespeare or Dickens? In some respects I'd definitely agree with that (though I haven't read the Scholastic/Levine versions) - the closer one gets to the original language in which the book was written, the closer one also gets to the mind-set of the author. At another level, however, I think this discussion is quite a luxury phenomenon. I am Danish, and though I have no problems reading the books in English, my family is not as lucky (my 12 years old son has begun to make attempts at PS in the last half a year or so) and I've read all of the books out to the kids in Danish. Obviously part of the British ambience will disappear, but it must also be remembered that neither the Danish nor the Scholastic versions are intended for a British audience - in general the subtleties will be beyond most people not raised in the culture, but the main ambience - that strong odour of Britishness that is all that can be detected by foreign noses - will remain. It was a pleasure, by the way, to see on Rowling's web site that the inclusion of Dean's skin-colour during the sorting in the Scholastic version of PS wasn't thought up by Levine, but was a bit that was actually cut by the Bloomsbury editor - I've seen it described in quite strong terms as a nod to American multi- cultural political correctness, and it's good to know that it was not. Oh, and please don't quibble over whether it says jumper or sweater - in Danish the Firebolt became a 'Prestissimo' and Pigwidgeon became 'Grisligiano'! Talk about keeping a British ambience ;-) Troels From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 22:54:24 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:54:24 -0000 Subject: centaurs (was Re: Red Herrings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101813 > > Janelle: > > Firenze I believe said something like 'it is always the innocent > who are the first victims'. > > 1) sirius. > > 2) cedric. > boyd: > And how about Ginny? Or Harry? Or Lilly? Janelle: I was thinking along the lines of death but you could definitely make an argument that these people are victimized. Ginny, the innocent first year fits. Harry seems too important, too central, to be seen as a victim in the same way as the others. I interpreted the centaurs to be talking about the upcoming war, not the last one and so Lily wouldn't work because she was killed during the last war, at the end of it too. From pixieberry at harborside.com Thu Jun 17 23:24:10 2004 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0700 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... References: <1087505912.5560.2422.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <01ee01c454c2$32649e20$493a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 101814 Pixieberry: That would be That Hideous Strength (third in the Out of the Silent Planet series). Just finished it last night. :) Wanda wrote: I have a vague memory of one of C.S. Lewis's science fiction books (someone can tell me which one it is - it involves Merlin travelling in time to the present day). There's a married couple in it, and though they don't know it, they are destined to produce a child who is to save the world. Only they're not very happy, and the wife has refused to have children, with the result that the moment to conceive this child has passed, and the moment is gone forever. When right after "Snape's Worst Memory," Harry is thinking over how his mother seemed to hate his father, he wonders if James somehow forced Lily into marriage. Maybe there's something to that: perhaps theirs wasn't a love-match, but more of a political marriage, to produce this miracle child who would fulfill prophecies and defeat Voldemort. It's a bit of a dicey subject for kids to read, though - almost like selective mating, but if Rowling wants to push the envelope in literature, this would be one way! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 23:42:21 2004 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:42:21 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Dzeytoun: > >>Lots of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms > of his students' performance. I think this is largely speculation. > I did an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find > no references in which it was indicated that Snape got good > performance out of his students, that they generally did well on > OWLS, that people regarded him as making students learn, etc. > All the references I could find - and I may well have missed > some - speak to his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to > how much his students learn, etc. << > > OOP ch 12 US 252 > > "...I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintaining > the high-pass level I have come to expect from my O.W.L. > students." > > Oblique confirmation that Snape's expectations are not > unjustified comes from Tonks and McGonagall. Tonks had a > hard time qualifiying as an Auror --evidently despite Snape's > strictness about admission to NEWT potions, there's no > shortage of candidates and the Auror office can afford to be > selective. They haven't taken anyone on in the last three years, > McGonagall says, so they must be fully staffed. > > Pippin I do see your point, Pippin, but that's not always the case. In Holland they have huge problems in the health sector (shortage of doctors, nurses, you name it), there are enormous waiting lists to be medically assisted in Holland, and still they have a system of a limited number of students who may study medicine. Every year there is a large amount of people who want to study it. The qualifications are: you have to have completed VWO (highest form of secondary education) succesfully with the medical sciences package (biology, chemistry, physics, certain type of math, including algebra, calculus, trigonometry, geometry etc. If your average is higher than an 8 you can study medicine, if you have lower than an 8 (which is most everyone) you can be chosen randomly (they pick names out of a hat so to speak). Now that they have shortage you'd think they'd up the number of people who are allowed to study it - but no, they don't. Then again, the WW doesn't exactly work like RW Holland. So you're probably right, just thought I'd point it out anyway. Sometimes you need to set certain standards. It's better to have a small amount of very competent potions masters or aurors than to have a large amount of people whho mess up all the time. I mean, who's hands would you put your life into? A couple of competent aurors or an army of less-than-average to average aurors who are more likely to mess up? So I understand his selectivity. *Lara*. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 00:08:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:08:41 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <20.2c26822e.2e032f65@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101816 Pippin previously: > >We are concerned for Neville and Harry because we agree that > abuse can cause lasting damage, meaning symptoms that > persist even in the face of powerful incentives to change. These > symptoms may include paradoxical effects like sadism and > inappropriate aggression. We agree it would not be realistic to > deal with abuse in the novels and not show these effects. > > Why, then, are Snape's sadism and inappropriate aggression > not read as the realistic results of abuse? If abuse causes > lasting damage, why expect that Snape should have gotten over > it? > > Pippin< > batchevra: > I am not a Snape basher, I think that Snape, Harry and Remus will have to > work together to ultimately defeat Voldemort, Neville will help also, but I am > not sure that he will have to do more or less than the others. Having said that, > Snape is in a position of authority, and he abuses that authority in that he > bullies both Harry and Neville. Snape was abused by his parents, I don't know > enough of the story behind the relationship between Snape, James, Sirius, > Peter and Remus to say that one is more at fault for the enmity. I need more > information. Never said that Snape had to get over it, just not take it out on > children who had nothing to do with what happened before. > > Batchevra ( who needs more time in the day to read the posts) > Alla: Well, Pippin I partially agree with Batchevra. I don't know enough about Snape's school days to say that he was abused by Marauders on a permanent basis. All we saw was ONE scene of their seven years in Hogwarts, where Snape was definitely bullied, but really, I think more information is needed. I am not even sure that the boy in his memory was Snape, so I can't even be sure that he was abused at home. And again, if he WAS abused on a permanent basis, it is even worse to me - victim , who turned bully. He knows exactly how it feels and still does it to those who are weaker than them. I am also in agreement with Batchevra - if Snape is uncapable of overcoming those effects of the abuse, let him hate those childrein in private, but not take it out on them., Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 00:17:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:17:36 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: snip. > Actually, I see other possibilities as more likely. I doubt Harry > will get an O on potions, and I think that Dumbledore's reasons for > not letting Snape teach DADA are still pretty valid. > > I think much more likely are 1)Harry will get an E on potions and > Dumbledore will order Snape to change his policy for the sake of the > war effort, thus deepening Snape's hatred of Harry to new depths; or > 2)Harry will get an E and Draco will also get an E. When Snape wants > to make an exception and take Draco into Advanced Potions, Dumbledore > will tell Snape he can only do so if he allows Harry and anyone else > with an E into Advanced Potions. This could be VERY interesting > because Snape would now have Draco to thank for having Harry another > two years. > > Oh, to answer an objection in advance, yes I think Dumbledore WOULD > interfere with Snape in this manner. We have what I think is pretty > good indication that he intervened and forbade Snape from failing > Harry after third year. We also know that changing school rules in a > time of national crisis is hardly unreasonable or unheard of, at > least in the Muggle world where entire curricula are often > restructured in the face of national crises. > > Dzeytoun Alla: Hey, THAT Dzeytoun. :o) Of course with Rowling ANYTHING is possible, but I have to disagree with your assertion that we saw the hint that Dumbledore intervened. I think it was a classic bit of misdirection on Rowling's behalf. Think about it, Harry WAS wrong about Snape's motives in the first book. I think that the fact that Harry thought that Dumbledore could have intervened to make Snape not to fail him, shows exactly the opposite. I think Snape let him pass on his own. It is my gut feeling. I am not inclined to think that Snape had a ny decent motivations to do so, but that is what he did, IMO. Did I just defended Snape? :o) Scary. Alla From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jun 18 00:23:54 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:23:54 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: <01ee01c454c2$32649e20$493a2d0c@D55NTV31> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krystol Berry" wrote: > Pixieberry: > That would be That Hideous Strength (third in the Out of the Silent Planet series). Just finished it last night. :) > Thanks! I think I'll see if I can find it at the library! Wanda From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jun 18 00:29:53 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:29:53 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101819 "jelly92784" wrote: ....so are books 4 and 5 still 'americanized' or are they basically the same as the british versions? ----------------------- Yes. They have all been "Americanized" but the earlier books more so than the last. (Scholastic thought they'd have to "translate" the books to apeal to americans. Apparently travel through reading is an unheard of concept to them.) For about $35, you can order a box set of softcover UK editions 1-4 from www.amazon.co.uk That's what I did. Speaking of which, I wish we knew when the softcover editions for OotP are coming out... Arya From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 14:20:27 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:20:27 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101820 Kneasy: > > > See? The possibilities are many, these are just a sample, lots > > > more where they came from, but only a few endings get serious > > > consideration. > > > And that's just one facet of the story. Expectation and perception > > > again. *We* limit the possibilities we see, we're the ones in > > > blinkers. We have defined our own boundaries. SSSusan: > > It's interesting, isn't it? Are these other possibilities ignored > > because we're oddsmakers at heart? Because of the gut reaction > > factor? Because of the "I don't WANT that to happen" aspect of it? Kneasy: > Most likely it's a combination of a number of influences, for most > anyway. > Tradition is probably high on most lists. "This is the way this type > of story ends; always has, and so should this one." > Yes, "Don't want it to end that way" has also figured in some posts, > though it may be a variant of the "Tradition" factor. What's familiar > is comfortable and comforting. Lots of fans have classified the HP > series in their minds as a certain type of fiction; if it turned out not > to fit neatly into that category, well, it might cause puzzlement, even > consternation. But JKR never said it would fit any particular category. > Expectation and perception, yet again. I am put in my mind of those sort of stories that postulate multiple (perhaps infinite) alternate universes, in which a small variable leads in each case to a new infinite number of alternate universes, of greater or lesser similarity to one another. I don't mean the HP series itself, but of the possibilities Kneasy has raised as to where the path leads. We can postulate to the bitter end as to what MIGHT happen, until we get TO the end and we KNOW which path is taken. (Or not - we may very well be left with an uncertain post-series future, in some respects.) But in the meantime, we're amusing ourselves, aren't we? The brains are getting some exercise. It is not unusual, of course, to read a story in which we get to know our protagonist & main characters better and better. As they become fleshed out more fully, we do come to have certain expectations of their behavior. There is also, as one goes along, a sense that The End will probably go in a particular direction, or one of a diminishing no. of directions. I think what draws HP fans ever deeper, is that as we get closer to the end of the series, we learn more and more, and know less & less. In part, I think, that is because our protagonist comes in at the beginning of the maelstrom of adolescence & will end nearly at the other side, & JKR does not shy away - in fact, she effectively employs - the mental, emotional and developmnetal changes that an adolescent goes through, including the ugly nasty bits. We don't know for sure where he'll end up, exactly, do we? I picture Harry at his first use of Floo Powder. When he stops spinning, our expectation, as his, is to end up in Diagon Alley, but he ends up on Knockturn Alley instead. Of course, he gets where he belongs eventually, but could this be foreshadowing? (Actually I just mentioned it as an analogy, but now that I've said it....) And then of course, we have our other friends and acquaintances, of whom we have learned all sorts of things. With all this information, any idiot should be able to predict what will happen. (It might be harder for someone of intelligence, though.) The point is, there are just so many places JKR can go with this, & only she REALLY knows who these people are & what they'll do. An unexpected ending doesn't require a bizarre twist, such as a gang of renegade goblins taking over the MoM & making Wizards & Witches into slaves with Dementor bos'uns (didn't I see a movie like that once?). We can have an ending that follows fairly traditional lines, but still satisfies by defying our expectations and challenging our assumptions. Anyway, all those alternate universes remain out there for our consideration, until Miss Rowling pops the bubble. What bothers me is when people construct their own HP universe, find it becomes untenable in the subsequent book, & then get angry with the author for ruining a perfectly good (in someone's mind) theory/universe/relationship. "My version/character/ship/ending is better than hers." Whatever. If I want to read my story, I'll write my story. But I want to read HER story, the one that she's said, in essence, will not conform to anyone's expectations except her own. For the record, that's a GOOD thing. Ava From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 16:12:27 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:12:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c45485$e2763e00$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 101821 Pippin Why, then, are Snape's sadism and inappropriate aggression not read as the realistic results of abuse? If abuse causes lasting damage, why expect that Snape should have gotten over it? Stop the cycle of abuse. Snape is an adult and must own his actions; Neville and Harry are children must develop their own characters helped by adults. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jun 17 19:18:52 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:18:52 -0400 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? Message-ID: <50A711A4.59F344BE.0004E520@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101822 Alla wrote: > > Seriously, though, it will be a start. It will show that Snape can > grow and change as a human being. > > Really, one of the reasons why I am so fed up with Snape's nursing > his old grudges after OoP is because his character started to be come > static. No change at all. > > > I wanted to applaud Snape, when at the end of GoF he showed his Mark > to Fudge. Futile gesture? Maybe, but so courageous (true > Gryffindor ":o)) and supportive of Harry, who just went through hell. > I thought that would be a start of new beginnings for Snape and Harry > and Sirius ( No, not the beginning of the beatiful > friendship :o), > but just new beginning) > > And here we are in OoP, back to square 1. Grrrrrr. This is my first post here, though I've been lurking for awhile and reading the posts (as much as I can, since this is a *very* busy list!). I wanted to reply to this one: (Hi, Alla!) I felt too at the end of GoF that Snape and Harry might be moving to a new phase in their relationship, perhaps even toward a point of mutual respect (I don't really expect them to ever *like* each other). I also felt that was happening most of the way through OoTP. When Snape started teaching Harry Occlumency, he seemed to tone down his sarcasm, even offering a grudging compliment or two--in a Snape fashion, anyway--on Harry's performance. I felt Snape was actually making a small effort, and even his irritation at Harry's not practicing enough was justified (as Harry wasn't practicing). Where any chance of improving their relationship went awry, IMO, is when Harry looked at Snape's memories in the pensieve. Now, I know why Harry did it, and I don't think he was being malicious. But he was totally in the wrong. No doubt Snape lacks the objectivity to view Harry's action in any but the worst possible light, and his refusal to continue tutoring Harry was a response more in line with someone at Harry's teenage maturity level than that of an adult. That reaction is not right either, though perhaps understandable given Snape's prejudices. So, I do agree that Harry and Snape's relationship has been set back to square one by the end of OoTP, or maybe worse based on Harry's single-minded blame of Snape for Sirius's death. But I do think Harry instigated that setback, even if Snape sealed it with his reaction. I also expect in Book 6 Harry will be the one to keep their relationship in its current sorry state, at least in the beginning. However, I do hope that by the end of Book 7 Harry and Snape will at least have achieved a detente, and will view each other more realistically (assuming they're both still alive). I'd like to see them develop that grudging respect for each other eventually, since whatever their individual faults, they are both fighting on the same side (AFAWK). Juli From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Thu Jun 17 20:22:30 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:22:30 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040617202230.77678.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101823 moonmyyst: And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts and GP can talk, why can't HP's pictures of his parents? Do they have to be a certain size before they can? >> I guess that's because Harry's pictures are photographs. Pictures that speak are paintings. ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail: http://br.surveys.yahoo.com/global_mail_survey_br From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Thu Jun 17 20:33:58 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:33:58 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617203358.66548.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101824 SSSusan: YES, I can, Rebeka. It was a point I was going to make. I think whoever said that picking out Ron or George or Ginny from amongst all the (magical) Weasleys would be next to impossible is right. And I also think that Draco--or ANY witch/wizard in an all-magical family-- would likely get away with all kinds of magic, as long as no damage was done, no one was hurt, **and** no MUGGLES witnessed it. In the cases where Harry's gotten in trouble with the MoM, at least 2 out of the 3 of those criteria have usually been met, and *definitely* the Muggle criteria! >> You know what annoys me a lot? That Harry was accused of underage magic especially in front of his cousin. I mean, he lives with his aunt & uncle & cousin, they are supposed to know about magic, aren't they? ;) ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail: http://br.surveys.yahoo.com/global_mail_survey_br From harp66 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 20:51:18 2004 From: harp66 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <1087489952.10282.56245.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040617205118.56189.qmail@web50808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101825 I recently began re-reading OOTP and was again struck by the absence of what thought was a flaw in JKR's depiction of adolescence in the book. While we do have Harry's vivid teenage angst about developing a relationship with Cho Chang, there is disappointingly little about how such emotions affect the dynamic of the central trio's relationship--which is a letdown after the topic was introduced in GOF. For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies and shows only occasional (and ambiguous) interest in matters of the heart (as she does when she advises Harry about his relationship with Cho)? Of the principal teenage characters in the novel, only Ginny Weasley appears to experiencing the normal dating game for young teenagers. Comments? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Fri Jun 18 00:08:24 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:08:24 -0000 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" > > I do see your point, Pippin, but that's not always the case. In > Holland they have huge problems in the health sector (shortage of > doctors, nurses, you name it), there are enormous waiting lists to > be medically assisted in Holland, and still they have a system of a > limited number of students who may study medicine. Every year there > is a large amount of people who want to study it. This is very true. The Auror Office may simply have very few openings. This would mean that, even if Snape's students don't do well generally, there may still be more of them than an extraordinarily closed career field can accomodate. Thus, we can't infer from Tonks' experience that Snape is not just blowing wind. An example would be my own career field. Almost all the certified training programs for promotion are universally regarded as poorly run, and the average results on required standardized exams are terrible. Yet over the last 20 years an average of two people have been promoted per year, due to lack of slots. Thus even though the training is terrible and few people do well on the required exams, even most of those who HAVE managed the required marks have not received promotion due to lack of space. Dzeytoun From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Thu Jun 17 23:57:36 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:57:36 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades (FF references) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > OK what will it be? > Harry gets an O: Suspence is over > Harry doesn't get an O. Several more chapters of suspence. > > Will Snape be made to let him in by DD or by some compromise? (Draco > doesn't get an E and needs it for Transfiguration for example) > (Snape lets him into Potions if he does not rejoin the Quidditch > team)Personally, I think it goes against what we see of DD for him > to force Snape to let Harry in. Nor, IMO, did he make Snape pass > Harry. > > Will Harry have to take remedial potions for real before re-taking > OWLS in the summer? > > Will Snape be teaching a different subject or no subject? > > Will Harry have to face the music and look to a different career? > > Has Jo thought of something I haven't? > > Well, now that I think of it, there is another major possibility. We should remember that the whole potions/auror question arose BEFORE the events at the MoM. By the end of OOTP, things had changed markedly. Harry now knows about the prophecy, has suffered the trauma of Sirius' death, and his feelings for Snape have shifted from total enmity to something approaching glacial hatred. All of this will definitely have an impact. In several recent fanfics Harry is shown, I think very plausibly, as not caring anymore about the potions class, regardless of how he does on his OWL. He tends to have the attitude that "I will not have anything more to do with that @#@!!#, not in Occlumency and not in Potions. I don't care if it means I can't be an auror and, in fact, if I survive to see the end of Voldemort I never want to be bothered by dark magic or responsbility to the wizarding world again." Another very believable outcome featured in recent fanfics is that both Snape and Harry refuse to have anything to do with one another, regardless of what grade Harry gets on his OWL. The powers that be (i.e. Dumbledore and McGonagall) decide that, however desirable it may be for Snape and Harry to bury the hatchet, for the time being it is best for everyone's sanity and survival to keep them apart and reasonably mollified. Therefore Snape is assured that he will not have to accept anyone into Advanced Potions against his will, and Harry is offered the option of studying independently (or under an acceptable mentor) for his Potions NEWT. Dzeytoun From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 00:52:57 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040618005258.55144.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101828 --- Arya wrote: > For about $35, you can > order a box set > of softcover UK editions 1-4 from www.amazon.co.uk > That's what I did. > Speaking of which, I wish we knew when the > softcover editions for > OotP are coming out... > > Arya > Well, according to amazon.com, the Scholastic paperback comes out August 10. Amazon.co.uk lists the UK paperback coming out July 10. How reliable these dates are, I have no idea. But bloomsbury.com has the July 10 date, too. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 18 00:54:12 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:54:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle and wizard pics In-Reply-To: <20040616214729.10724.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101829 | From: K G | Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 17:47 PM | do the testing. In the US, a teenager can get a "learner's | permit" at (usually) age 15. This entitles the teen to drive | with a licensed driver over the age of 18. To get the permit, | the teen has to pass a written test over rules of the road, | signs, etc. When the teen comes back at age 16, he/she takes a | driving test and eye test. If they pass, then they receive their | regular license. I am not sure about for a motorcycle, but I do | know that it is a seperate license, as is the commercial license. [Lee]: This does vary from state to state in the US. In New Jersey, one can have a Motorcycle Endorsement on one's license. That's what Art has...not two licenses, but this endorsement thing. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 00:57:03 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:57:03 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > My responses are sprinkled throughout. Sorry, I know this format is > always a pain! > > > SOF wrote: > > 1) Lily eventually married James because he changed. He got over > > himself and started behaving like a better person. Why hasn't been > > revealed, but hey, people mature. > > Boyd: Canon doesn't actually demonstrate James changing, does it? So > let's see which of our beliefs are HP-facts and which are > assumptions/hopes. > > SOF wrote: > > 2)James put up a courageous to save his family. Otherwise, why > bother > > telling Lily to run with Harry? He was trying to protect them. This > > is easily extrapolated from the shreds of information about that > > fateful day that are seeded throughout the series. > > Boyd: While I agree that it's more likely James was good, I'm merely > pointing out that it's still possible that he was, at least > initially, involved with LV. Do I believe this? No. But in the > interest of weighing all the alternatives, there it is. > > > SOF wrote: > > 3) Harry is the one because Voldemort chose to attack him. There > were > > only two choices: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. For his own > > reasons, which Dumbledore suggests was a subconcious identification > > to the half-blood child, Voldemort decided that Harry was the > > prophesied "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." The > > incidental result of his attack was the gifting of Harry with that > > power. If Voldemort had attacked Neville, that boy would the one. > > Yes, you have stated the commonly-held opinion, but it's not canon. > I'm again pointing out that we don't really *know* why Harry is the > one. Maybe it is because he's the one LV attacked and his mother > defended...or maybe it's something else. And if there's something > interesting left to learn about what happened that day at GH (and I > believe there is, although no canon yet), then here's one > alternative. There have to be others. Anyone? > > > SOF wrote: > > Voldemort wasn't killed by the AK backfire because he had been > > performing experiments on himself for years in an attempt to make > > himself impervious to death. He doesn't know if he succeeded > > entirely, but he managed to survive the AK. > > Once again, we have no canon either way. Could be meat, could be > cake. :) Your statement is what I initially assumed, but I feel there > must be more to the GH/scar/prophecy triumvirate than we know. > > > SOF wrote: > > I don't get this spell business. LV wasn't doing a spell with > Harry. > > Their link comes from the AK backfire when Harry was a baby. > > Yes, this "eternal life" spell is just a theory, but why did LV care > about some mere baby? Isn't he the all-powerful Lord Voldemort? So > what if some prophecy said something about the kid maybe being his > equal. Isn't he almost at immortality yet? Why not send a dozen DEs > to do the deed? Why not tend to that after he takes over the whole > WW? > No, I think there's a reason, and maybe it's that Harry was the key > to his long quest for immortality. > > Further, and as my best canonical defence, we still have no clue why > a rebounding AK would forge a link between the two. I'm simply > supposing there was already a link there as the beginning of some > eternal life spell or something. > > Clearly, there's something we don't know yet. Something big. > Something that has to do with why Harry's the one, and why Harry is > linked to LV, and what happened at GH. What is it? Hmmmm. > > boyd Now I'm really confused. You say " let's see which of our beliefs are HP-facts and which are assumptions/hopes" but your initial post was clearly (and almost entirely) speculation. And I don't see how my Point 2 response fails to be canon. This is what the book says. Even if the characters are hypothesizing it is still canon coming from the book. Voldemort himself "assumes" that his experiments with immortality are what saved him from the AK. I get that you're supposing there was a previous link between HP and LV. I'm supposing James got himself together enough to be worth marrying, special case of Snape notwithstanding. Jerks need love too. In the interests of weighing all the alternatives I submit that all roads lead back to the prophecy. Of course, the belief here is that all prophecies are nothing more than systems of control introduced by outside parties to influence events for the greater good. So somewhere beyond the veil is at least one entity capable of predicting certain outcomes of a specific set of events. And by issuing a 'suggestion' (or two) through Sybil Trelawney, said entity set into motion Lord Voldemort's downfall. Hopefully, said entity will not turn out to be... Muad'dib. From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 18 00:57:54 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:57:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle References: <20040617202230.77678.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <029901c454cf$4aa928e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101831 > moonmyyst: > > And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts > and GP can talk, why can't HP's pictures of his > parents? Do they have to be a certain size before > they can? > > > >> I guess that's because Harry's pictures are > photographs. Pictures that speak are paintings. > > ===== > > ~Rebeka I think the only pictures that can talk are the ones of dead people (or of fictional characters that were never alive in the first place). At least it's my impression that all the talking paintings and pictures we encountered were of people who are deceased and that we haven't as of yet seen a portrait of a person who's still alive, only photos. I have a feeling that wizarding portraits function similarily to ghosts. Alina. From rzl46 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 01:15:06 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:15:06 -0000 Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <20040617205118.56189.qmail@web50808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101832 Peter Shea wrote: > > For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies and shows only occasional (and ambiguous) interest in matters of the heart (as she does when she advises Harry about his relationship with Cho)? Of the principal teenage characters in the novel, only Ginny Weasley appears to experiencing the normal dating game for young teenagers. > > Comments? MaggieB: I don't really have a problem with this depiction. We had little or no indication of Ron's desire to play quiddich, why would we expect him to openly express his desire for any particular girl? For that matter, we only know of Harry's interest in Cho because of the point of view from which JKR chose to write the novel. Only Hermione noticed his interest. Not Ron. And to recognize Ron's interest in any female we'd almost have to have Harry recognize it first in order to be told. I don't think Harry would be any more perceptive in this than Ron is. Same goes for noticing Hermione's interest. Okay, okay, Harry notices who Ginny likes. But Ginny seems to be much more blatant, open, . . ., what word is it that I'm looking for? I suppose one could also make the argument that since Harry was the object of Ginny's attention for so many years he is more in tune to her. MaggieB--who recognizes that portions of her post will be used by shippers of all kinds From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 18 01:16:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:16:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101833 [Jason wrote]: | | I was just over at the movie list and saw something that almost made | me cry before I was told it was a parody. An article talking about a | WB tv series Harry Potter. They mentioned Americanizing the series | for an American Audience. [Lee]: Hmm--sounds like what Spielberg (sp?) wanted to do with the first movie, which is why he didn't get the job. :-) (At least, that's what I'd heard.) [Jason]: | That reminded me of something I keep meaning to bring up. Throughout | the novels there are tons of Britishisms and British culture | including words, phrases, foods, traditions, etc. So many, in fact, | that I would like to do away with the American edited version all | together. I havent read any of the British versions of the books but | they can't be THAT different, can they? We Americans have become | accustomed to many phrases and Britishisms by now anyway. [Lee]: There were diffs in the first book. Example, describing Hagrid's hands as big as trash can lids (US) and dust bin lids (UK). However, I really noticed more of the British influence in OOTP...things like "jumper" instead of what we would call a sweater, trainers rather than the plain ol' sneakers, and they were in the US edition. I agree, skip the editing...one book fits all! :-) Besides, it's another good learning experience for American kids. :-) Personally, I love some of the UK terms a lot more than the US ones. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. | From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 18 01:19:17 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:19:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP References: Message-ID: <02b301c454d2$4760fb60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101834 > okay, Harry notices who Ginny likes. But Ginny seems to be much more > blatant, open, . . ., what word is it that I'm looking for? I > suppose one could also make the argument that since Harry was the > object of Ginny's attention for so many years he is more in tune to > her. > > MaggieB--who recognizes that portions of her post will be used by > shippers of all kinds It's not even so much that Harry noticing Ginny's boyfriends, it's that Ginny outright says that she's dating someone (in Michael Corner's case, it's Hermione to says it), Harry would have to be deaf to miss it. As none of the other character's speak up about their love lives in Harry's presence, it's not surprising that we don't know what's going on romantically in the school. Alina. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 02:08:24 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 02:08:24 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101835 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Hear, hear. I read "The Little Princess" when I was six or so; not only was it British, but Victorian. I loved it because it was totally another world. Besides, a kid who can read science fiction and deal with words in languages that don't exist can certainly read British English. We may be Philistines, but we're (mostly) not stupid. --JDR From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Fri Jun 18 02:25:20 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:25:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American Message-ID: <1f0.235583d0.2e03ac90@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101836 Whenever I read the books I always hear a British/Irish/Scottish accent in my mind, just depends on the character speaking. My mom was from England, so I'm used to it. When I first heard there was 2 versions of the book, I was like that was so wrong. Because I truly felt they were taking from the story, even in the first book they changed things like mum to mom. I read the American versions but when I can afford them, I want the British versions. Has listened to the British version on tape love Stephen fry. I know there is one thing that had been changed in OOPT and the was take the mickey out of it. Apparently the British version, haven't read yet have been on hold at local library since last summer for it, has a reference that is considered vaguely sexual in the US???? Danielle D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 18 02:26:38 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:26:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: O.W.L.s & grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101837 [From Kaisenji] | I'm rereading OotP (sadly for the second time) and that stood out with | me as well. And while I would agree with the grade tampering, don't | forget that the little troll got attacked by centaurs and we weren't | clued in if wether or not she will be well enough to return as the | secretary. Also, if she put in a note to have Harry's grades messed | with, whom is going to do it? | Percy, perhaps? Do you think he would stoop low enough to ensure Harry | never becomes an auror just because Umbridge said so? What about | Fudge; how's he play in on that? Is he even going to be shown Harry's | O.W.L.S. since Umbridge sent a note forward in Harry's career? | Interesting... | | Kai | *hoping the centaurs had LOADS of fun with Umbridge* [Lee]: :-) I take umbrage with Umbridge. According to what I just transcribed from OOTP, all the students have to wait a month or so, so it's not just Garry. --BEGIN Quote-- "Please, Professor," said Hermione, her hand in the air, "when will we find out our results?" "An owl will be sent to you some time in July," said Professor McGonagall. "Excellent," said Dean Thomas in an audible whisper, "so we don't have to worry about it till the holidays. ..." Harry imagined sitting in his bedroom in Privet Drive in six weeks' time, waiting for his O.W.L. results. Well, he thought dully, at least he would be sure of one bit of post next summer. ... --END QUOTE-- I'd probably go nutters trying to enjoy a holiday worrying about what LV's got planned, hoping I passed my OWLs, and dealing with the Dursleys...Don't sound like a whole lotta fun. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From oakleafevolution at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 01:25:58 2004 From: oakleafevolution at yahoo.com (oakleafevolution) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:25:58 -0000 Subject: T-bay Theory Preparations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101838 Ok, my sister introduced me to this site, and it's been a while since I saw any T-bay things, so why not? *Oakleaf, or Oak as she preferred to be called, used a blue colored pencil to sketch out the design for a new seagoing device, of small size but, as she figured it, large importance. The plan showed it was going to be long and thin, with a forboding skull flag. She signed the bottom of the blueprint in an untidy scrawl, and then sucked on the end of her quill, wondering what to name the pirate ship... ok, maybe more of a pirate rowboat... "Hmm," Oak murmured to herself, sitting on the dock, "Something begginning with a P?" Pie had been taken years ago... maybe something to do with a great battle? Of course! P.E.L.E.N.N.O.R! Percy's Evilness Lies Evident, Nefarious News to the Order's Reality!* From thebusylife at excite.com Fri Jun 18 02:08:53 2004 From: thebusylife at excite.com (Dawn) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 02:08:53 -0000 Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <02b301c454d2$4760fb60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101839 Alina: > "As none of the other character's speak up about their love lives > in Harry's presence, it's not surprising that we don't know what's > going on romantically in the school." I agree with Alina about not knowing because Harry doesn't know. But also, I remember a lot of boys that age in school being totally oblivious to girls being "girls" and not just one of the gang! Some boys had to be practically hit over the head before they would notice. I was like Hermione, I dated one boy and then kind of "forgot" about them and just dealt with school. Makes sense to me! Dawn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 02:19:14 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 02:19:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101840 Dicey (Bonnie) "dicentra_spectabilis_alba" wrote: > Hagrid says in PA that Sirius yielded up the motorcycle to him, > saying he wouldn't be needing it anymore. Hagrid figures later > that Sirius didn't want to keep something that could so easily > be traced, but obviously he was wrong. > > Some have speculated that it was a pre-suicidal gesture, but when > Sirius recounts the events of that night, he makes no mention of > planning to kill himself. Did Sirius figure he would be in jail > soon because he was planning to murder Peter, or is this just one > one more unknown about that night? Hi Bonnie Valky here, I absolutely believe that Sirius intended to kill Peter. He expected all the consequences that went with it and so he gave away the bike as a hopeful gesture to his Godson that maybe would be remembered. Reminded that he would never have dreamed that Peter would outwit or outspell him in the alley my absolute conclusion here is Sirius intended to avenge James and Lily and take what ever was coming to him after that satisfaction was gained. I am hoping not to go OT by discussing this but since this is a Sirius Bike thread I will mention it anyway, in the Book Day online chat interview with JKR that I read recently JK said that careful readers probably already know where Sirius Bike is now. I am guessing she has casually referred to someone having seen it in the books perhaps transformed into something else but having similar features. Has there been discussion on this anybody? Best to all. Valky From cello_siok at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 03:16:11 2004 From: cello_siok at yahoo.com (cello_siok) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 03:16:11 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <20040616133538.45985.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101841 "Serpensortia" If I'm not mistaken, Snape whispered it to his ear. But of course he wouldn't have been able to cast a spell right for the first time right? Maybe Snape taught him since he knows that Malfoy can cast the spell? Chris Vineyard From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Fri Jun 18 04:11:21 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:11:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > I am hoping not to go OT by discussing this but since this is a > Sirius Bike thread I will mention it anyway, in the Book Day online > chat interview with JKR that I read recently JK said that careful > readers probably already know where Sirius Bike is now. I am > guessing she has casually referred to someone having seen it in the > books perhaps transformed into something else but having similar > features. Has there been discussion on this anybody? The best guess I've heard is that the bike is in the Forbidden Forest. Cannon support is minimal, but that is where the Ford Anglia ended up (and we haven't seen it out of there since, and only in there in CoS), and Hagrid had the bike last and he spends some of his time in the Forest, and is about the only one who does. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 04:15:56 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:15:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... Message-ID: <55.5a420a58.2e03c67c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101843 In a message dated 06/17/2004 2:01:53 PM Central Daylight Time, wsherratt3338 at rogers.com writes: > Did he really change that much, though? When Harry asks Sirius and > Lupin, they admit that he kept on fighting with Snape, despite Lily: > "Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he > never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really > expect James to take that lying down, could you?" > "And my mum was OK with that?" > "She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth," said > Sirius. > Or Sirius presumes that Lily didn't know about it. Remember in the pensieve memory Lily tells Snape that she won't bother to help him from that point on and her nearly cracking a smile when James flipped him upside down. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 04:20:37 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:20:37 -0000 Subject: FILK: Lord Thingy Has Been Resurrected Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101844 Lord Thingy Has Been Resurrected (OOP, Chap. 38) To the tune of Here Is A Case Unprecedented from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Gondoliers Dedicated to Pippin No MIDI ? this song is sung very rapidly. The text is here, but this song is toward the bottom of the page (hit Cntrl-F, type in "Unprecedented") http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/gondoliers/libretto.txt THE SCENE: The Daily Prophet finally acknowledges that there really is a threat to the WW's very existence. CHORUS OF DAILY PROPHET REPORTERS Lord Thingy has been resurrected! And once again we go to war Dumble and Harry we once rejected They're heroes now whom we adore. WIZARDS Our Ministers have this threat neglected Which strikes at us demonically WITCHES When a dementor is detected Read how to handle it on page three! ALL. O citizens all, Divided we fall Tighten we must security! When shall a commission be selected To accuse ev'ry authority? O citizens all, Answer our call Join in the fight `gainst You-Know-Who WIZARDS Our interview with brave Harry is found upon Page two WITCHES Our interview with brave Harry when he fought You- Know-Who! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 04:31:23 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:31:23 -0000 Subject: Missing character - OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Kirstini: > > the missing Evil Temptress you highlighted would fit in rather > > nicely with the publisher's promise that "there will be a new DADA > > teacher (female) with a personality like poisoned honey". I > > suppose you could call it a pet theory of mine because unlike > everyone else on the list, I don't think this is going to be Arabella > Figg. > > > Mandy here: > Sorry Kirstini, but JKR said that last year about the upcoming DADA > teacher in book five. And we ended up with Deloris Jane Umbridge. > JKR was again, bless her, leading us on a wild goose chase with that > comment. Annemehr: Actually, this quote of Kirstini's is from two days *before* OoP was released. If you follow the "up thread" button, you'll find it. I became suspicious because I haven't seen her around here in a good while. So now it makes sense! Mandy: > Let's hold out for another female DADA teacher in book 6. Like I > said a long time ago, I hope she's sexy, beautiful, strict and > potentially very evil, like the stereotype of the sexy French > schoolmistress, someone all the boys will fall for. After all the > girls had Lockheart back in book 2! It's about time the boys caught > up! > > Mandy Annemehr: That would be fun! Much more fun than toadly Umbridge! But let's not find out the evil part until after the Easter Holiday... Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 05:23:23 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 05:23:23 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101846 The sequence of this post as I found it was somewhat confused, so forgive me if I haven't reconstructed it correctly. Someone wrote: according to Sirius, Snape was sort of Lucius' stooge. Yuiren responded: Wait! I thought it had been found that Lucius graduated when Snape and the marauders were all in second year! Snape was friends with Bellatrix and many other Death Eaters, but he was not in the same year or remotely close to Lucius. -imamommy added the relevant quote: > > "'Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted > his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?'" > (Sirius Black to Severus Snape in OoP, p 520, Scholastic edition) > > It would appear, then, that ol' Snivelly did know Lucius, whether in > school or after. Carol responds to all: I don't think that the thread indicates that Snape was ever Lucius Malfoy's "stooge." The term "lap dog" means a little pet. Given the difference in their ages (Malfoy is 41 at the end of GoF; JKR has told us that Snape is 35 or 36 in that book), it's logical that they would have known each other at school when Lucius was in his sixth and seventh years and Severus in his first and second. Lucius, seeing the potential of this little boy who already knows as many curses as he does, may well have condescended to him, allowing him to join his gang (surely he was the leader of the slytherins then?) as a very junior member. (The others, for example Bellatrix, were also older than Severus, though a little younger than Lucius, and probably would have retained him in their gang, possibly with something of the same condescending attitude.) Sirius is probably contemptuously remembering the days when Severus was Malfoy's "little pet" and possibly implying that a similar relationship (the rich Malfoy condescending to associate with the younger Snape, who has to earn his living) still exists. IMO, it's almost certain that they did know each other, perhaps out of school as well as in, but there's no reason to interpret that relationship as that of a "stooge" and his boss or master. Also, it's important to remember that Sirius is the same age as Severus and would have seen him with Malfoy only (or mostly) in the short time when the three were in school together. It appears that Sirius lost contact with Severus immediately after they left school. He didn't know that Snape had become a Death Eater or that he was a Hogwarts teacher, which would have happened either just before or shortly after Sirius himself was sent to Azkaban. It's evident from his ignorance of those two important elements in Snape's history that Sirius was not keeping tabs on Snape (though perhaps as a member of the Order he was watching Malfoy). To reiterate, the only time that Sirius would have seen the two former Slytherins together and formed the idea that Severus was Lucius Malfoy's "lap dog" was those two years at school when Severus was a child of eleven to about thirteen. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 05:40:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 05:40:36 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets same as Room of requirement. Was: Racism and Snape's grud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101847 Pippin [note] that the Chamber of Secrets, like the Room of Requirement, was able to provide Harry with what he needed. Maybe Tom only found a basilisk and a gigantic statue of Slytherin in the Chamber because he wanted to. Alla responded: Pippin, your reading of canon is one of the most original and unusual on the list. This is interesting. So, does it mean that Salsar never left Basilisk at school, but Chamber of Secrets just conjured one according to tom's wishes and it stayed there for fifty years? Carol: I think that Pippin was half-joking here, but being behind on posting and not able to go back to check I can't be sure. In any case, it wasn't the Chamber that provided Harry with what he needed (Fawkes and the sword of Godric Gryffindor by way of the Sorting Hat), it was Dumbledore, who had arranged for help to be given to those who needed it and loyalty to him to be rewarded. Geoff or someone will find the right quotes if you want them; they're in the scene where Hagrid is being arrested by Fudge and Dumbledore is being relieved of his duties by Malfoy. IMO, and of course there's no canon for this, Fawkes and the Sorting Hat, which is not just a hat but a sentient being, were in on the plan and came when "called," the hat (which at first appeared to be empty) as a kind of magical container for the sword and a way of transporting it. That is, through some plan or spell of Dumbledore's, they were somehow aware of Harry's statement that Albus Dumbledore, not Lord Voldemort, was the greatest wizard of the age, and were simultaneously aware of his peril. In any case, the Chamber of Secrets didn't provide the aid Harry needed; Dumbledore did. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 06:01:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:01:34 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101848 Dzeytoun wrote: We don't have much evidence that Snape > is targeting specific memories. > Having said that, however, there is still an obvious failure in the > method (and I understanding you are not necessarily defending Snape's methods). Harry should have been offered the courtesy of a pensieve > to protect his most painful/embarassing memories in a way similar to > Severus' sequestration of HIS painful memories. Once Harry had > become more proficient at blocking Snape's attacks, this would not > have been necessary. However, it would, almost certainly, have > greatly facilitated Harry's comfort and his ability to learn. > > Carol: OTOH, not having Harry's memories protected ought to have "facilitated" his efforts to protect them. Notice that Snape is almost pleased when Harry accidentally hits him with a stinging hex, understanding that he did so reflexively, belatedly defending his memories from Snape's intrusion. If Snape were as horrible as many people read him to be, he would have accused Harry of doing it on purpose and given him detention for it. Instead, he sees Harry as making some sort of progress. I'm guessing that the method Snape is using to teach Harry is the method by which he himself was taught, presumably by Dumbledore, and it may well be the only way to learn it (which could explain why it's so rare). The whole idea of occlumency, as far as I can see, is to block your emotions and your memories from your enemies (and, in Snape's case, to be able to lie without being detected). Snape has to position himself as the enemy in order to get Harry to do protect himself, and he's angry when Harry doesn't react quickly enough because he know what could happen if Harry faced Voldemort with a similar attitude. ("You're handing me weapons!") Being nice and respecting your student's feelings isn't going to prepare your student to deal with a murderous enemy who wants to invade his mind. Carol From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 06:44:32 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:44:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: <20040618005258.55144.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040618064432.71189.qmail@web25304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101849 Rebecca Stephens wrote: --- Arya wrote: > For about $35, you can > order a box set > of softcover UK editions 1-4 from www.amazon.co.uk > That's what I did. > Speaking of which, I wish we knew when the > softcover editions for > OotP are coming out... > > Arya > Rebecca answered Well, according to amazon.com, the Scholastic paperback comes out August 10. Amazon.co.uk lists the UK paperback coming out July 10. How reliable these dates are, I have no idea. But bloomsbury.com has the July 10 date, too. Now UdderPD Amazon UK dates are generally spot on, whenever I have pre-ordered either Books (HP, Terry Pratchett, etc) or DVD's they have arrived on their release date. Hope this helps. TTFN Udder Pen-Dragon ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 06:57:14 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:57:14 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: <1f0.235583d0.2e03ac90@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nrsedany2be at a... wrote: > Whenever I read the books I always hear a British/Irish/Scottish accent in my > mind, just depends on the character speaking. My mom was from England, so I'm > used to it. When I first heard there was 2 versions of the book, I was like > that was so wrong. Because I truly felt they were taking from the story, even > in the first book they changed things like mum to mom. I read the American > versions but when I can afford them, I want the British versions. Has listened to > the British version on tape love Stephen fry. I know there is one thing that > had been changed in OOPT and the was take the mickey out of it. Apparently the > British version, haven't read yet have been on hold at local library since > last summer for it, has a reference that is considered vaguely sexual in the > US???? > Danielle D. Annemehr: There is, and more than vaguely sexual -- but only in the US, not Britain. At the top of Scholastic OoP, p. 227, Fred and George are telling Harry and Hermione how tough OWL year is, and George says "Fred and I managed to keep our spirits up somehow." That sentence in the UK editions reads: "Fred and I managed to keep our peckers up somehow," which means the same thing, "peckers" meaning "hearts," but obviously Scholastic wasn't going to print that! Should you care to peruse the other differences between versions of OoP, they are catalogued in the HP Lexicon at: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/differences-op.html which shows the differences between the first four also. Most of those changes make me angry, too, since they're merely a matter of style -- as in dropping "whilst" for "while." As soon as OoP is out in UK paperback, I'm ordering the set of all five. Or, I could just use the Lexicon to annotate and correct my Scholastic versions... nah, too much work! Annemehr who can read English just fine, thankyouverymuch From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 06:25:01 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:25:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > nadjjaa wrote: > > > > > Sirius can't be really DEAD. That just makes ZERO sense. > > > > nadjjaa (HI) > Hi nadjjaa! > Just curious, b/c I'm one of the people on this list who really > really want him to come back. So, why does it make zero sense? ... > there's been threads here that propose that his "death" was planned > ... to help Sirius escape .... > > However, I'm rather afraid to believe it b/c of JKR's comments that > people die, rather suddenly at that, and especially in war. > Enlighten me, *please*! > > Susan (Padfot lover ;-) bboy_mn (now Asian_lovr2): I agree, Sirius's death makes no sense, but does death ever make sense? Especially a violent unpredictable death? If they were going to fake Sirius's death, would they really do it under such uncontrolled and unpredictable circumstances? Unless the implication is that Voldemort, Bellatrix, and the DE's were in on the plot. The whole circumstance surrounding Sirius's death is just too complicated, with WAY TOO MANY variables, and too uncontrollable to have been an intentional plot for just that purpose. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that particular scenerio. I believe Sirius will come back to the story, but will not come back to life; dead is dead. Steve From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Jun 18 07:10:54 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 03:10:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101852 [Geoff quotes]: | | '....and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry | crossed his fingers under the table and a second later the hat had | shouted "GRYFFINDOR!" | Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair | next to him. | "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across | Harry as "Zabini, Blaise" was amde a Slytherin. Professor McGonagall | rolled up her scroll and took the Sorting Hat away.' | | (Philosopher's Stone "The Sorting Hat" p.91 UK edition) [Lee]: Ah--Geoff...Thanks for returning my lost marble. :-) Yes, now I remember, and it seemed like a nothing sort of event...But, true, Susan Bones didn't really make a definitive appearance until OOTP. Thanks, Lee :-) (Missing her sweetheart who's away for the weekend.) :( Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 07:48:09 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:48:09 -0000 Subject: Who knew Snape was a DE Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101853 > Potioncat wrote: > It has always seemed odd to me that Sirius talks about the DE's > grumbling about Pettigrew, yet he never heard anything about Snape. > Also, that no one else ever heard them talking about Pettigrew. Of > course the Dementors probably didn't care. > Carol: First, I think it's likely that the DEs that Sirius heard talking about Pettigrew would be the three Lestranges, who were the only ones sufficiently motivated to try to find their "master" after he disappeared. (Barty Jr. would have come in with them, but based on the Pensieve scene, he was focusing on his father's rejection of his pleas and would quickly have become too demoralized to talk.) Anyway, I don't think that all of the DEs were together or that they were talking to each other off and on for the whole twelve years Sirius was there. Probably they did most of their talking when they first came in, before they fell too deeply under the influence of the Dementors, and, in the Lestranges' case, when what they viewed as Pettigrew's treachery was fresh in their minds. Also, of course, they would have blamed him for Voldemort's vaporization or defeat, which would have been much more important to them than anything Snape might have done (like not being sent to prison). They themselves had gotten off with lies earlier, as Malfoy also did. It was what they expected a fellow Slytherin to do, and I don't think it would be worth mentioning. (Rookwood, when he came in, probably talked about Karkaroff's betrayal, if he talked at all. But they had no reason IMO to talk about Snape.) Anyway, I don't think the DEs talked about Snape for two reasons: At first, he was the last thing on their minds. All they cared about was what had happened to Voldemort and why (and, of course, their own presence in Azkaban). Later, and not much later, by the way Sirius describes his experience, they would have been too demoralized by the Dementors to talk much. Barty Jr. would have died there within a year if his father hadn't yielded to his mother's desperate dying wish to rescue him. Sirius was only able to keep from going insane or dying of despair by focusing on the one thought that he was innocent (and much later, the obsession with getting out and murdering Pettigrew). Bellatrix probably stayed "sane" (or at least functional) by focusing on Voldemort, silently stewing in her own brooding resentment. Maybe Rabastan and Rodolphus did the same. It's hard to say whether they had any contact with the others who were brought in earlier or later, for example Dolohov and Macnair (both of whom were so steeped in evil that that were probably stewing in their own malice). And also, even if the other prisoners were in any shape to talk when the Lestranges came in, there may have been no opportunity. Some of them may have been in solitary confinement. The Dementors might even have separated those who talked too much. Sorry. Too wordy and detailed as always. Sorry. But, anyway, I think the DEs Sirius overheard talking about Pettigrew were the three Lestranges when they were first brought in. And I think the talk would have stopped very shortly without ever getting around to why young Severus Snape was not keeping them company. Carol, who thinks this rambling post is a sign that she should go to bed. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 18 08:15:12 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:15:12 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: <78B94EFC-BFCA-11D8-9DB1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > > There's a metaphorical split in the road somewhere ahead; one way goes > the traditional route towards the theories that are most popular, the > other path could go somewhere else entirely. The scene seems set for > both possibilities; which way will Jo take us? > > Kneasy I'm not so sure there is a split ahead. JKR has created a series of books that can be categorised under a multitude of genres: Children's book (although I suspect that more adults have read it than children) Odyssey Mystery (see posts on Red Herrings) Fantasy (real magicalism anyone?) Trilogy (Like LOTR but as in Douglas Adams book four in the trilogy) Morality tale (not unlike the Chronicles of Narnia also a 7 volume work) Social critique (see Dan's post no 101776) Action/Adventure Romance (if the shippers have their way) Rather than perceiving this approach as creating a new sub genre it is best viewed as a meta genre. There isn't to my knowledge a history for this type of polyglot style, it is full on post modernism. There are writers working now with a similar approach (Jasper Fford springs to mind) but not a tradition as such. Rather than follow a well established path JKR is weaving many paths into a tapestry, a big picture. The conclusion then becomes not an end point reached by a linear rationale but a complex, messy, living whole. As such it is reasonable to suppose JKR can tie up all the loose ends, specific threads can be followed from beginning to end, but also leave questions unanswered, a greater perspective always raises more and different questions. At the end of the series we will be able to stand back and see the wood from the trees but I doubt very much we will all see the same wood! I shall return to these lists to read others observations and learn from them just as I do now. We still won't have the answer we will have greater understanding and that is not the same thing at all! Regards Jo (Thanking Kneasy for the intelligence, imagination and sheer hard work he puts into his posts!) From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 18 08:51:31 2004 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:51:31 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lilysphoenix" wrote: > --- (snipped!) > > I like the idea of a teenage Harry being at GH that night. Here are > my reasons: (that I can recall at the moment ;)) > > 1) In PoA (the movie), when Harry comes into contact with the > Dementors, he hears his mother's screams. Something that I didn't > notice the first time around, is that Lily is screaming "Harry!" > > 2) The theme of the movie was obviously time. > > 3) The Lupin/Harry scene on the bridge. Lupin tells Harry "Your more > like them than you know, in TIME you will come to see just how much." > We also know that in the book, Lupin had the strange look when he > asks Harry, "You heard James?" > > 4) Sirius tells Harry right before he escapes with Buckbeak, "The > ones we love never truly leave us." > We know that JKR tells us that there were things in PoA the movie, > that forshadowed what will happen in books 6 and 7. I think these > could be some of those things. What do you think? I completely agree that POA (movie) is making the time theme even more clear than it was in the book. I noted most of the things you have in that regard. I'm sure time is going to be one of the keys, because of the room in the Ministry of Magic in OOTP which is devoted to some form of time experiment. It is irrelevant to the Book 5 story but quite a lot is made of it. (Maybe a more sophisticated device than the time turner awaits us in later books.) I've also just noticed that the first time we meet Dumbledore, in Privet Drive, he consults "a very odd watch". Between your view that Lupin thinks James wasn't really there, and Vmonte's view that it was Harry's body, not James's, in the rubble (both of which are fascinating ideas) the question arises - where WAS James? (Surely a stray stag would have been noticed in Godric's Hollow?) If Lupin knew the answer, it would suggest it was a full moon and James was off minding him, but wasn't it very dark the night Harry was deposited on the Dursleys' doorstep? Also, for it to be Harry's body, we have to deal with the fact that James came out of Voldemort's wand in GOF beside Lily, so presumably that means he did die at a point in time reasonably close to her. To get round that one, you would have to postulate that it WAS an older Harry who died, however the Harry we have always known actually IS James (time-turned). But that won't work because (a) Harry has Lily's eyes, and (b) those who knew James think Harry is similar but not the same. Where it gets murky (you thought it already HAD?) is that both of them bear an almost equally striking resemblance to Tom Riddle. So if all three of those characters were, by some quirk of time, 18 the day Harry Lived, they would ALL look similar. Anybody want to run with THAT ball? On an unrelated note (except that it's still about time) the interpolation that really fascinated me in the POA movie was that the Harry in the first run-through feels physical pain when the stone is thrown at him by Harry in the later run-through. That feels very significant to me. One possibility is that the pain Harry always feels in the scar when Voldemort does things is across time, not across space as we have hitherto supposed. But there could be lots of other ways this info is relevant. From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 09:31:47 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (pooh) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:31:47 -0000 Subject: JKR punning Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101856 Was amused to hear recently that there is a shrub called bog myrtle. I have to assume that this must have been in JKR's thoughts when she named the haunter of the girl's lavatory. (For non-UK readers bog is a rather charmless British slang for a loo). From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 18 09:52:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:52:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <20040617205118.56189.qmail@web50808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1087489952.10282.56245.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40D347E5.18854.5E5061@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101857 On 17 Jun 2004 at 13:51, Peter Shea wrote: > For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a > healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware > of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is > Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule > Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies and shows > only occasional (and ambiguous) interest in matters of the heart (as > she does when she advises Harry about his relationship with Cho)? Of > the principal teenage characters in the novel, only Ginny Weasley > appears to experiencing the normal dating game for young teenagers. Possibly cultural differences at work again. Not *all* teenagers date, not *all* teenagers are actively interested in the opposite sex in any proactive way. When I was at school, at my school and others I had contact with, the general attitude towards the idea of dating was that it was something you did when you were 18 and had the time. It certainly wasn't unheard of for someone to date, or to have a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and the attitude to that was 'the lucky (word of choice)' but it really wasn't a major priority. What we see at Hogwarts is a school were some of the kids are interested in such things with apparent regularity, others are interested on special occasions (such as dances) and others aren't particularly actively interested (though most of them probably wouldn't object if something happened). Ron is 15... well, frankly, at 15, I'd say perhaps 1 in 5 of my classmates had reached the stage of being attracted to specific girls. A large enough proportion that it was no longer worthy of comment. I really don't find Ron that surprising - I wouldn't be surprised the other way either. But what I see is Hogwarts is a school where while relationships happen, there's no incredible pressure to have one - and in those types of environments, quite a lot of kids don't start getting actively interested in romance until their late teens. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 18 09:52:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:52:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic In-Reply-To: References: <40D1DD8D.14139.1F5AE79@localhost> Message-ID: <40D347E5.589.5E4ED1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101858 On 17 Jun 2004 at 11:29, dzeytoun wrote: > Shaun said: > > A lot of these > > kids are *very* attracted to the world they see in Harry Potter - > > and a couple I know of have significant contact with rather Snape > > like teachers - who they value in the same way I value the ones I > > encountered... regarding such teachers as irredeemably abusive - > > well, to a great extent, that comes very close to telling these > > kids if they are reading, that there is something *wrong* with them > > - or that their experiences as students are somehow less valuable > > or less correct than the people who like all their wonderfully > > kind, compassionate teachers who tell them how great they are. > > OK. I'm not sure that a method or tradition is worthwhile simply > because some people derive benefit from it. There are lots of things > out there that benefit some people that nevertheless, as a whole, > create more pain and harm in the world than they do good. I won't > give some obvious historical examples because I think I would be > perceived as being hurtful and making comparisons I really don't > intend to make. > > Still, I acknowledge your point. It's all very well to say that some things cause more pain and harm in the world than they do good - except when you're one of the people who they would do good for, and you've had to spend much of your life dealing with the fact that the rights of everyone else are put ahead of yours - and that it's considered fine and dandy to do this, because it's not fair to hurt anyone else. When you're being hurt because it's not happening - the argument tends to collapse from at least your perspective. I'm not saying it doesn't have any relevance of course - if you have a black and white choice with no alternatives between hurting one person or hurting a hundred, then it's pretty obvious where the better choices lies. But things are rarely black and white, and there's rarely no alternatives. There's also the question of numbers - at the school I attended, it was pretty clear that the methods used worked for most of the students there. What we did didn't effect anyone else, so that was the only measure that really counted. With regards to Harry Potter, and Hogwarts, the only relevant question is whether the methods used at that school work at that school. It's not particularly relevant whether or not they work outside the school, or if they'd work at another school. Do we have evidence that Hogwarts methods are causing the students widespread damage? Do we have evidence that Snape is causing the students widespread damage. In all honesty, the only person I ever see described as being at risk of showing any lasting harm at all as a result of Snape's actions is Neville. One student. And personally, I'm not particularly sure there's much reason to suppose Neville has suffered any lasting harm. But even if he has - he's one among many - if you want to base your arguments on the number of people supposedly hurt. Does Harry show evidence of lasting harm from what Snape does to him? Does Hermione? Does Ron? Do any of the other students show evidence of lasting harm? > > Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good teacher? > > No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have enough real > > information one way or the other to be sure. To assess whether he > > is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a lot more than just how > > he manages a classroom - like the results he achieves. > > This is an excellent point and one with which I totally agree. Lots > of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his > students' performance. I think this is largely speculation. I did > an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no > references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance > out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that > people regarded him as making students learn, etc. All the > references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to > his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students > learn, etc. McGonagall at least obliquely acknowledges, in > the "Career Advice" part of OOTP, that some people just don't seem to > prosper very well under Snape's tutelage. Yes, and I'd be pretty sure that some people don't prosper very well under McGonagall's tutelage, or Sprout's, or Trelawneys', or Binns', or Sinistra's, or Hagrid's. I'd be rather surprised if you could find a single teacher on the planet in whose classes, every child they have ever taught has prospered very well. I also it's worth considering the school and the environment we see at Hogwarts. This is a school where 11 year old children are sent into a forest in the middle of the night to hunt something that is killing unicorns, and which a half giant arms himself against, as a form of *detention*. This is a school where children engage in a sport at high speed and altitude, which we have seen result in some very impressive injuries. This is a school where when an ancient monster is roaming the corridors petrifying students, classes continue virtually as normal. This is a school where the trees are capable of killing you, and which spent a year guarded by creatures that could suck out your soul. A school where an interschool sports involves dodging dragon breath! And this is a world where when confronted with a small boy who shows no sign of magical talent, and who has had to deal with massive trauma in his life, his relatives dangle him out of windows to help him develop magic. This is a world where the 'ideal mother figure' we are shown once beat one of her sons with a broomstick. We have a teacher who acted as a host to a figure of dire evil. We have a teacher who was a total fraud and who attempted to memory charm a pair of children to preserve his secrets. We have a teacher who was a servant of evil in disguise. We have a teacher who is so boring, his students regularly fall asleep in class. We have a teacher who regularly predicts the deaths of her students... And people are seriously worried about Snape damaging the children? (-8 It's also a school, of course, where the Prefects and the Head Boy and Girl are so capable as to be placed as the final line of defence when there is a mass murderer roaming the school. And it's a school where a group of Fifth and Fourth Year students were ready, willing, and able, to charge into danger to try and protect a friend - and when they do, fight and survive a battle with some of the most evil people in their world. "'Go on then,' said Harry, raising his own wand to chest height. As he did so, the five wands of Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna rose on either side of him." These are the type of children that Hogwarts produces. And poor, damaged, Neville, so harmed by Snape... "'He's dot alone!' shouted a voice from above them. 'He's still god be!'" In the real world of modern education, I somehow doubt Hogwarts would survive as a school. But in the Wizarding world, it seems to produce the kids they want. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 18 09:55:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:55:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/ Message-ID: <40D348A3.26416.6135E8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101859 This bounced back at me, so I will try again. On 17 Jun 2004 at 11:29, dzeytoun wrote: > OK. I'm not sure that a method or tradition is worthwhile simply > because some people derive benefit from it. There are lots of things > out there that benefit some people that nevertheless, as a whole, > create more pain and harm in the world than they do good. I won't > give some obvious historical examples because I think I would be > perceived as being hurtful and making comparisons I really don't > intend to make. > > Still, I acknowledge your point. It's all very well to say that some things cause more pain and harm in the world than they do good - except when you're one of the people who they would do good for, and you've had to spend much of your life dealing with the fact that the rights of everyone else are put ahead of yours - and that it's considered fine and dandy to do this, because it's not fair to hurt anyone else. When you're being hurt because it's not happening - the argument tends to collapse from at least your perspective. I'm not saying it doesn't have any relevance of course - if you have a black and white choice with no alternatives between hurting one person or hurting a hundred, then it's pretty obvious where the better choices lies. But things are rarely black and white, and there's rarely no alternatives. There's also the question of numbers - at the school I attended, it was pretty clear that the methods used worked for most of the students there. What we did didn't effect anyone else, so that was the only measure that really counted. With regards to Harry Potter, and Hogwarts, the only relevant question is whether the methods used at that school work at that school. It's not particularly relevant whether or not they work outside the school, or if they'd work at another school. Do we have evidence that Hogwarts methods are causing the students widespread damage? Do we have evidence that Snape is causing the students widespread damage. In all honesty, the only person I ever see described as being at risk of showing any lasting harm at all as a result of Snape's actions is Neville. One student. And personally, I'm not particularly sure there's much reason to suppose Neville has suffered any lasting harm. But even if he has - he's one among many - if you want to base your arguments on the number of people supposedly hurt. Does Harry show evidence of lasting harm from what Snape does to him? Does Hermione? Does Ron? Do any of the other students show evidence of lasting harm? > > Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good > > teacher? No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have > > enough real information one way or the other to be sure. To > > assess whether he is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a > > lot more than just how he manages a classroom - like the > > results he achieves. > > This is an excellent point and one with which I totally agree. Lots > of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his > students' performance. I think this is largely speculation. I did > an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no > references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance > out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that > people regarded him as making students learn, etc. All the > references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to > his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students > learn, etc. McGonagall at least obliquely acknowledges, in the > "Career Advice" part of OOTP, that some people just don't seem to > prosper very well under Snape's tutelage. Yes, and I'd be pretty sure that some people don't prosper very well under McGonagall's tutelage, or Sprout's, or Trelawneys', or Binns', or Sinistra's, or Hagrid's. I'd be rather surprised if you could find a single teacher on the planet in whose classes, every child they have ever taught has prospered very well. I also it's worth considering the school and the environment we see at Hogwarts. This is a school where 11 year old children are sent into a forest in the middle of the night to hunt something that is killing unicorns, and which a half giant arms himself against, as a form of *detention*. This is a school where children engage in a sport at high speed and altitude, which we have seen result in some very impressive injuries. This is a school where when an ancient monster is roaming the corridors petrifying students, classes continue virtually as normal. This is a school where the trees are capable of killing you, and which spent a year guarded by creatures that could suck out your soul. A school where an interschool sports involves dodging dragon breath! And this is a world where when confronted with a small boy who shows no sign of magical talent, and who has had to deal with massive trauma in his life, his relatives dangle him out of windows to help him develop magic. This is a world where the 'ideal mother figure' we are shown once beat one of her sons with a broomstick. We have a teacher who acted as a host to a figure of dire evil. We have a teacher who was a total fraud and who attempted to memory charm a pair of children to preserve his secrets. We have a teacher who was a servant of evil in disguise. We have a teacher who is so boring, his students regularly fall asleep in class. We have a teacher who regularly predicts the deaths of her students... And people are seriously worried about Snape damaging the children? (-8 It's also a school, of course, where the Prefects and the Head Boy and Girl are so capable as to be placed as the final line of defence when there is a mass murderer roaming the school. And it's a school where a group of Fifth and Fourth Year students were ready, willing, and able, to charge into danger to try and protect a friend - and when they do, fight and survive a battle with some of the most evil people in their world. "'Go on then,' said Harry, raising his own wand to chest height. As he did so, the five wands of Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna rose on either side of him." These are the type of children that Hogwarts produces. And poor, damaged, Neville, so harmed by Snape... "'He's dot alone!' shouted a voice from above them. 'He's still god be!'" In the real world of modern education, I somehow doubt Hogwarts would survive as a school. But in the Wizarding world, it seems to produce the kids they want. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 18 10:07:10 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:07:10 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dan" wrote: > > But really, it's not a "genre" at all. It's a rather finely wrought > method for Rowling to inscribe her social critique in the widest > possible arc, and directed toward those who will appreciate it most, > whether they are young or old. I read Dickens when I was in senior > public school (ages 10 - 12 or so), a time when we, as human beings, > start developing real self-consciousness. The Potter books really re- > enact that process. The trappings of a magical world, the chrome, as > it were, provide just enough distance from the quotidian for the > critique to be effective. What is strange, though, is how some of > that critique doesn't make it through, as if readers were able to > pick and choose how thorough a critique they read. Kneasy: There's not much doubt, in my mind at least, that HP is stuffed with allegory and allusions to social attitudes and mores leak from every volume. I, too, like most of my generation read Dickens when young, Unfortunately that no longer seems to be common practice, or at least not in this area. An aquaintance - a bookseller specialising in childrens books, supplying schools as well as the public - told me that Dickens is considered "too complex" and not really suitable for teens. Did you ever hear anything so daft? But it was this intelligence that prompted me to use the Dickens classics as examples. And if this is true then hopefully JKR and writers like her will be able to circumvent the idiocy of "experts" by appealing to the younger reader directly. Mind you, we are making assumptions. We haven't yet seen the finished product, though most of us have little doubt that these threads will continue and may even be re-inforced. > Dan: > As the series draws closed, maybe these questions won't all be > solved. Rowling's project doesn't seem focused on solving - the > witchwizard/muggle world balance, the ethical implications of memory > erasure, for instance - the state of the house elves - the house > system of Hogwarts etc. etc. But even if it does, there are those for > whom these questions have little to do with their own reading. That > is what I don't understand. For me, the 1700 pages so far (or more, I > forget) don't stand as foreplay to some vast orgasmic conclusion, but > are, from start to finish, a creative act, a finely balanced, even > enchanting (in offering ways out when there seem to be none) method > for maintained social critique. > Kneasy: It's a commonplace that what you get out of a book depends to a great extent on what you bring to it. Different readers will approach books in different ways, responding to themes and nuances in a different manner. That is one of the joys of a well-crafted book; that we each take want we want and gloss over the rest. It's the old "You can take a horse to water" conflict. Folk tend to get disgruntled when they suspect that conclusions or interpretations they don't really hold look as if they are being imposed on them. As to the climax - it could be anything, frankly. Or almost. There is no ineluctable path to a conclusion. Suits me fine. But I do have hopes. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Fri Jun 18 10:08:59 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:08:59 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040618214937.02925e90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 101861 At 20:51 18/06/2004, you wrote: >lucinda428 wrote > >Heavy snipping > >Also, for it to be Harry's body, we have to deal with the fact that >James came out of Voldemort's wand in GOF beside Lily, so presumably >that means he did die at a point in time reasonably close to her. >To get round that one, you would have to postulate that it WAS an >older Harry who died, however the Harry we have always known >actually IS James (time-turned). But that won't work because (a) >Harry has Lily's eyes, and (b) those who knew James think Harry is >similar but not the same. Where it gets murky (you thought it >already HAD?) is that both of them bear an almost equally striking >resemblance to Tom Riddle. So if all three of those characters >were, by some quirk of time, 18 the day Harry Lived, they would ALL >look similar. Anybody want to run with THAT ball? Tanya here Great post. Very interesting. I'm just going to comment on one paragraph. This has had me wondering for a while, but in a different context. In GOF when LV is describing the Godrics Hollow scene, he says, paraphrasing."I was ripped from my body, oh the pain." I often wondered what happened to LV's body. Now, for my next issue. The time turning idea is great, but one thing I need figured. In the POA book, both sets of Harry and Hermione, have to live during the time turning phase at the same time. Now if Harry does go back, and survive as his late teenage self. How the heck does he get to the present again. Would he have to live those 18 years while his baby self grows? Then somehow be in the same spot to merge at the time the time turner was activated. And if he is wandering around waiting in the sidelines. I wonder as who? If introduced. But as a whole, headaches all round lol. However, I'm not quite clear. Are you suggesting all three of them time turned and are running around as youngsters then that night? Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 10:16:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:16:13 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > [Geoff quotes]: > | (Philosopher's Stone "The Sorting Hat" p.91 UK edition) > > > > [Lee]: > Ah--Geoff...Thanks for returning my lost marble. :-) > > Yes, now I remember, and it seemed like a nothing sort of event...But, true, > Susan Bones didn't really make a definitive appearance until OOTP. Geoff: Depends what you mean by definitive. She did appear in the above scene: 'Professor McGonagall now stepped forward holding a long roll of parchment. "When I call your name, you will put on the hat and sit on the stool to be sorted," she said. "Abbott, Hannah!" A pink-faced girl with blonde pigtails stumbled out of line, put on the hat, which fell right down over her eyes and sat down. A moment's pause - "HUFFLEPUFF!" shouted the hat' The table on the right cheered and clapped as Hannah went to sit down at the Hufflepuff table. Harry saw the ghost of the Fat Friar waving merrily at her. "Bones, Susan!" "HUFFLEPUFF!" shouted the hat again and Susan scuttled off to sit next to Hannah."' (PS "The Sorting Hat" p.89 UK edition) She is thus the second person to be sorted in 1991. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 10:24:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:24:36 -0000 Subject: Fishing... (Warning time-travel related) about Marchbanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101863 phil wrote: Just got to jump in here in response to all these theories about Dumbledore being someone from the present day sent back in time ... Since the examiner in OOP (forget the name) recalls testing him for his NEWTs, particularly Transfiguration IIRC, it would have to be someone young enough to enter Hogwarts and work their way through, or surely *someone* would notice his sudden appearance! vmonte responds to time-travel enthusiasts: NEWTS are taken in a students 7th year. They are the equivalent of Advanced levels (A levels) in England, which are required for University entry. NEWTS seem to important for job placement after Hogwarts. If Ron is sent back at some point during sixth year he could very well enter Hogwarts as a transfer student would. Ron may seem average to us, but since he is going far back in time, he may very well know spells that have not even been invented yet. My guess is that Ron will be able to communicate with Harry and Hermione. He may take a piece of Sirius's mirror back in time and communicate as with walkie-talkies. It may be useful for Ron to check out the Hogwarts of that time for possible clues. (If he finds something of importance there he could always burry it, leaving instructions for Harry and Hermione as to where to find it.) vmonte From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 10:32:37 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:32:37 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets same as Room of requirement. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > In any case, it wasn't the Chamber that provided Harry with what he > needed (Fawkes and the sword of Godric Gryffindor by way of the > Sorting Hat), it was Dumbledore, who had arranged for help to be given > to those who needed it and loyalty to him to be rewarded. Geoff or > someone will find the right quotes if you want them; they're in the > scene where Hagrid is being arrested by Fudge and Dumbledore is being > relieved of his duties by Malfoy. Geoff: I seem to be getting a reputation as a loose can(n)on here... :-) The bit you mean is: 'Dumbledore had not taken his bright blue eyes off Lucius Malfoy's cold grey ones. "However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbedore's eyes flickered towards the corner where he and Ron stood hidden.' (COS "Cornelius Fudge" p.195 UK edition) Looking this and the next quote up triggered a thought in my mind.... '"First of all, Harry, I want to thank you," said Dumbledore, eyes twinkling again. "You must have shown mw real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you."' (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.244 UK edition) How was Fawkes called? Did Dumbledore sense something or did the bird? The import of Dumbledore's words seems to suggest that Fawkes made a decision himself - to go to the Chamber and to take the hat. Also the bird also knew how to get to the Chamber. OK, how intelligent are phoenixes? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 18 10:51:55 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:51:55 -0000 Subject: Which way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith > wrote: > > > > There's a metaphorical split in the road somewhere ahead; one way goes > > the traditional route towards the theories that are most popular, the > > other path could go somewhere else entirely. The scene seems set for > > both possibilities; which way will Jo take us? > > > > Kneasy > > I'm not so sure there is a split ahead. JKR has created a series of > books that can be categorised under a multitude of genres: > > Children's book (although I suspect that more adults have read it than > children) > Odyssey > Mystery (see posts on Red Herrings) > Fantasy (real magicalism anyone?) > Trilogy (Like LOTR but as in Douglas Adams book four in the trilogy) > Morality tale (not unlike the Chronicles of Narnia also a 7 volume work) > Social critique (see Dan's post no 101776) > Action/Adventure > Romance (if the shippers have their way) > > Rather than perceiving this approach as creating a new sub genre it is > best viewed as a meta genre. > Kneasy: Yes it can, I agree, *but* and this is the point I was struggling towards, the classification of HP will to a large extent depend on how she handles the resolution. This is liable to be given a greater weighting, especially if it is non-traditional, than any other theme in the tale. In what are generally regarded as 'good' books, when viewed in retrospect the ending seems inevitable; any other a travesty. So out of the list above which 'typical' resolution will prevail? Or will it be something different, an ending that alludes to some of those genre, but invites the reader to contemplate a fresh or unexpected perspective? > Jo > There isn't to my knowledge a history for this type of polyglot style, > it is full on post modernism. There are writers working now with a > similar approach (Jasper Fford springs to mind) but not a tradition as > such. > > Rather than follow a well established path JKR is weaving many paths > into a tapestry, a big picture. The conclusion then becomes not an end > point reached by a linear rationale but a complex, messy, living whole. > Kneasy: Hmm. Well, she did take a broad canvas to start with. If you intend to spread yourself over 7 volumes all of which are almost exclusively set in a very limited geographical location, you do have much more scope to introduce and resolve plot intricacies. I wonder what 'Kim" would be like if expanded by a similar amount. I enjoy Fford, but not for his plots; it's those terrible puns that I find irresistible, most (all?) of which would be incomprehensible to American readers; they're too local. > Jo: > At the end of the series we will be able to stand back and see the > wood from the trees but I doubt very much we will all see the same > wood! I shall return to these lists to read others observations and > learn from them just as I do now. We still won't have the answer we > will have greater understanding and that is not the same thing at all! > Kneasy: We'd better not all see the same wood, that would mean that the author has imposed a strict orthodoxy from which no reasonable person can deviate. My natural perversity kicks against being force-fed like a Strasburg goose. I get stroppy. > Jo > (Thanking Kneasy for the intelligence, imagination and sheer hard work > he puts into his posts!) Kneasy: T'ain't nuthin. Garrulous old farts don't often get the opportunity to vapour on without interruption, so one makes the most of it when a chance does arise. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 11:08:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:08:04 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: <50A711A4.59F344BE.0004E520@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101866 >Juli wrote: > So, I do agree that Harry and Snape's relationship > has been set back to square one by the end of OoTP, > or maybe worse based on Harry's single-minded blame > of Snape for Sirius's death. But I do think Harry > instigated that setback, even if Snape sealed it > with his reaction. I also expect in Book 6 Harry > will be the one to keep their relationship in its > current sorry state, at least in the beginning. Potioncat: In general, Harry has lots of reasons to dislike Professor Snape. The anger and blame he's feeling toward him for Sirius' death is a fairly normal reaction to grief and Snape is a perfect target for it. I would expect (if JKR is writing it as human nature) that those feelings will calm down over time. I'm not so sure about the underlying animosity. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 11:14:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:14:10 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101867 Lucinda428 wrote: I completely agree that POA (movie) is making the time theme even more clear than it was in the book. I noted most of the things you have in that regard. I'm sure time is going to be one of the keys, because of the room in the Ministry of Magic in OOTP which is devoted to some form of time experiment. It is irrelevant to the Book 5 story but quite a lot is made of it. (Maybe a more sophisticated device than the time turner awaits us in later books.) I've also just noticed that the first time we meet Dumbledore, in Privet Drive, he consults "a very odd watch". vmonte: Yes, someone months ago noticed the same thing about DD's watch. He consults it throughout the books. Perhaps this is his time-traveling device. Lucinda428: Between your view that Lupin thinks James wasn't really there, and Vmonte's view that it was Harry's body, not James's, in the rubble (both of which are fascinating ideas) the question arises - where WAS James? (Surely a stray stag would have been noticed in Godric's Hollow?) If Lupin knew the answer, it would suggest it was a full moon and James was off minding him, but wasn't it very dark the night Harry was deposited on the Dursleys' doorstep? vmonte: It was dark. It was also 24 hours after the Godric's Hollow attack. Lucinda428: ...the Harry we have always known actually IS James (time-turned). But that won't work because (a) Harry has Lily's eyes, and (b) those who knew James think Harry is similar but not the same. Where it gets murky (you thought it already HAD?) is that both of them bear an almost equally striking resemblance to Tom Riddle. So if all three of those characters were, by some quirk of time, 18 the day Harry Lived, they would ALL look similar. Anybody want to run with THAT ball? vmonte: Page 641 of OOTP, U.S. version "Excitement exploded in the pit of his stomach: It was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on his forehead, but the had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows. James's hair stuck up at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's, and Harry could tell that when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other's heights." I really like how JKR describes James appearance here--"deliberate mistakes". If Harry is seen running around during GH, he would be mistaken for James. If he is captured by a DE they may realize he is not James because of his eyes. I do have one comment though. If Harry is captured and then taken to GH by the DE's so that the Potter family is killed together, it may very well be Lily who recognizes him as her son (and no one else). Voldemort doesn't really pay attention to small details does he. Besides, he doesn't see James on a daily basis, unlike Snape does. Snape, hmmmm now that is interesting vmonte From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 11:15:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:15 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s & grades (FF references) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101868 Dzeytoun wrote: > > Another very believable outcome featured in recent fanfics is that > both Snape and Harry refuse to have anything to do with one another, > regardless of what grade Harry gets on his OWL. The powers that be > (i.e. Dumbledore and McGonagall) decide that, however desirable it > may be for Snape and Harry to bury the hatchet, for the time being it > is best for everyone's sanity and survival to keep them apart and > reasonably mollified. Therefore Snape is assured that he will not > have to accept anyone into Advanced Potions against his will, and > Harry is offered the option of studying independently (or under an > acceptable mentor) for his Potions NEWT. > Potioncat: That is another possibility. The part of it that seems most interesting that Snape and Harry would be interacting in some new way. (Because I'm certain, Potions or not, that they will interact!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 11:23:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:23:29 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101869 xChris Vineyard wrote: > "Serpensortia" > If I'm not mistaken, Snape whispered it to his ear. But of course he > wouldn't have been able to cast a spell right for the first time > right? Maybe Snape taught him since he knows that Malfoy can cast the > spell? Potioncat: It appears Snape told him to cast that spell. It isn't certain if Snape taught it or simply knew of Draco's ability. At first I thought it might indicate that Snape spent more time with the students of his House than McGonagall does. But I've seen posts that demonstrate Lucius could have taught the spell to Draco. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 11:51:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:51:51 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101870 vmonte wrote: I do have one comment though. If > Harry is captured and then taken to GH by the DE's so that the Potter > family is killed together, it may very well be Lily who recognizes > him as her son (and no one else). Voldemort doesn't really pay > attention to small details does he. Besides, he doesn't see James on > a daily basis, unlike Snape does. Snape, hmmmm now that is > interesting > Potioncat: We've gotten a lot of miles out of this dream! I have one quibble. Unless Lily was expecting her baby's future self, she would have no reason to recognise teenage Harry. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 11:27:26 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:27:26 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101871 Peter Shea wrote: > > For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies and shows only occasional (and ambiguous) interest in matters of the heart (as she does when she advises Harry about his relationship with Cho)? Of the principal teenage characters in the novel, only Ginny Weasley appears to experiencing the normal dating game for young teenagers. > > Comments? Leah: This isn't a high school where the kids go home every afternoon, so get a break from each other, and also go shopping, to clubs etc where they may meet boys and girls from other schools. These young people have lived in very close proximity to each other since they were 11. While it's clearly not impossible for romance to develop, this may induce more brother/sister closeness than would be compatible with dating. There's also the problem which occurs in office romances that you've got to go on seeing the other day after day following a split. I don't think it's accidental that a lot of the dating we have seen has been inter house. While it's chiefly Ginny we see dating in OOTP, we have been shown other relationships occuring within the school. We know Molly and Arthur were going out together at Hogwarts; so were Lily and James. Someone was kissing Florence according to Bertha Jorkins. Cho and Cedric appeared to be a steady couple, and the boy she moves onto after Harry, Roger someone, is also shown dating in Hogsmeade, snogging at the table. I have assumed Draco and Pansy are a couple, though this is not made clear. And of course, there was Percy and Penelope. As to Hermione, we don't know if she is content to focus her attention on a long distance relationship with Krum, or whether she is waiting for Ron to wake up. She is a girl who is very focused on her academic work and having proved she could'get a boy' is probably quite happy to concentrate on her books. I find Rowling's handling of this aspect very realistic and with the right sort of balance. I'm very touched by Ron's inablitity to realise what he feels or to know what to do about it. Leah From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 11:25:57 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:25:57 -0000 Subject: Out there theory about Dumbledore and the phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101872 Hope I'm not going over old ground with this but I've searched and can't find anything on the subject. I've been reading the posts on Ron=Dumbledore and Percy=Dumbledore by going back in time and wondered if there might be any tie-in with Dumbledore sharing the characteristics of the Phoenix. Dumbledore is said to be looking tired and old as the Phoenix does before it regenerates, his originally red hair echoes the colours of the bird and in Chamber of Secrets Dumbledore is represented by the phoenix in the battle against the basilisk. Could these, and other instances, be pointers to Dumbledore's regeneration and 'circular life' by one of the Weasley brothers going back in time to be Dumbledore. Or possibly some other sort of immortality for him. Biggest problem I can see with Ron=Dumbledore theory is that if he knew what would happen in advance he could have done more to warn Harry of the dangers facing him, although I suppose he would also have known that things would turn out ok. I get very frustrated with the lack of communication between all the characters, however I guess if they all sat down and had a good chat then the books would be alot shorter. From JOEYPOTTER50 at AOL.COM Fri Jun 18 11:53:44 2004 From: JOEYPOTTER50 at AOL.COM (katiegryffindor) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:53:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101873 > bboy_mn (now Asian_lovr2): > I agree, Sirius's death makes no sense, but does death ever make > sense? Especially a violent unpredictable death? > If they were going to fake Sirius's death, would they really do it > under such uncontrolled and unpredictable circumstances? Unless the > implication is that Voldemort, Bellatrix, and the DE's were in on the plot. > The whole circumstance surrounding Sirius's death is just too > complicated, with WAY TOO MANY variables, and too uncontrollable to > have been an intentional plot for just that purpose. > Sorry, but I'm just not buying that particular scenerio. > I believe Sirius will come back to the story, but will not come back > to life; dead is dead. Hi new person here :) I read a Rowling interview where she says that Sirius has to die in order for something to happen in book six . She had no choice but to kill him . Therefore it must have always been her intention for Harry to lose him . I find it a little upsetting that the one parental figure he has (apart from Dumbeldore) is taken from him after not too long . I also believe that Sirius will come back to the story moreover I think he will play an important role . Though sadly I think his role will be much like Harrys father - He will be dead yet his spirit and legacy will continue . Sirius's death has perhaps given Harry the ammunition he needs to fight Voldemort . The anger and frustration will no doubt play a main part. Kate From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 12:04:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:04:09 -0000 Subject: Harry/James, Crabbe or Goyle/Snape connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101874 snip Carol wrote: snip > > Also, it's important to remember that Sirius is the same age as > Severus and would have seen him with Malfoy only (or mostly) in the > short time when the three were in school together. It appears that > Sirius lost contact with Severus immediately after they left school. > He didn't know that Snape had become a Death Eater or that he was a > Hogwarts teacher, which would have happened either just before or > shortly after Sirius himself was sent to Azkaban. It's evident from > his ignorance of those two important elements in Snape's history that > Sirius was not keeping tabs on Snape (though perhaps as a member of > the Order he was watching Malfoy). > > To reiterate, the only time that Sirius would have seen the two former > Slytherins together and formed the idea that Severus was Lucius > Malfoy's "lap dog" was those two years at school when Severus was a > child of eleven to about thirteen. > Potioncat: Hi, Carol, you have been sorely missed by your fellow Snape supporters! Things have been fast and furious around here! I'd like to add, that I think Sirius' reference to Lap Dog has something to do with Severus' current duties for the Order and his interactions with the Malfoy family. And may also reflect on Snape's role at Hogwarts around the DE kids. Potioncat (who wants Carol to know that the twins still pop in from time to time) ;-) From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 12:18:08 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:18:08 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101876 Potioncat: We've gotten a lot of miles out of this dream! I have one quibble. Unless Lily was expecting her baby's future self, she would have no reason to recognise teenage Harry. vmonte responds: I understand your feelings Potioncat. I actually put "time-travel related" on the subject heading so that people who object to this theory could just skip over my post. When my cousin died a few years ago my brother and I went to the funeral in Florida (we are from New Jersey). Even though many of the people at the funeral never met my brother, they had known our father. Every single person in that room looked at my brother and said oh my god it's Franco (my father). Now my brother doesn't look exactly like my father he has "deliberate mistakes." I wonder what Lily would think if she saw someone that looked like James but with her eyes. She already knows that her baby child has her eyes, right? And if she knew that James was dead already... vivian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 13:04:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:04:39 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101877 batchevra wrote : > Snape is in a position of authority, and he abuses that authority > in that he bullies both Harry and Neville. Del replies : How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? Yes he bullies Harry, Neville, and countless others. But it doesn't seem to bother anyone in authority over Snape. So to me it looks like Snape is *allowed* to act that way if he feels like it. It's abuse in OUR eyes, but it doesn't seem to be so in the WW's eyes. We must be careful not to apply our own morals on another culture. (Alla is going to kill me for saying that...) Remember, in our own culture, just a few centuries ago, it was accepted that some people had the right to mistreat, rape and kill some other people if they felt like it. And remember also that the WW is a world where some intelligent beings are allowed to own and abuse some other intelligent beings. Hermione, as a Muggle-born, has a huge problem with that. Coud it be that our problem with Snape is some kind of reflection of Hermione's problem with the House-Elves ? Alla wrote : > And again, if Snape WAS abused on a permanent basis, it is even > worse to me - victim , who turned bully. He knows exactly how it > feels and still does it to those who are weaker than them. Del replies : OI, Alla, I'm afraid you're missing something really important here !! When abused people turn abusers, they are *still* VICTIMS of their abuse. I wad sexually abused as a kid, and when I learned I was pregnant, I was *terrified* : I was so scared of repeating it on my baby. I was somehow sure I *would* do it, that I couldn't stop it, it was going to happen. It was illogical, as I never felt pedophilic tendencies, but it was very real nonetheless. Well, I studied the matter and was able to put myself at peace after a while. But it's only recently that I heard on TV, in a show where sexually abused kids who were now adults were talking about how it still affected them, that *all* of them who had children said they had had the same fear at one time or another, and that they all had to get some help about it. *It's all part of the abuse*. And the counselor on the set said that those feelings were absolutely normal, but that they made the victims feel so ashamed that many of them didn't dare asking for help. And it's usually among *those* people, who don't get help, or who don't even realise they need help, that you'll find new abusers. So now, when I see an abuser who turns out to have been abused in their childhood, I can't judge anymore. I can only cry for *both* parties, because both parties are victims and both parties need help. So if Snape was indeed abused as a kid (and I agree we don't know that for sure), I can't judge him for abusing the kids now : the guy needs *help*, and fast. Alla wrote : > I am also in agreement with Batchevra - if Snape is uncapable of > overcoming those effects of the abuse, let him hate those childrein > in private, but not take it out on them. Del replies : Why should we expect him to do that ?? Nobody is forbidding him from doing it, and I suspect he gets some kind of twisted pleasure out of it. So why ever should he restrain from doing it ?? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 13:23:51 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:23:51 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101878 Lee wrote: > And, what was the thing Neville feared in POA? Uh...well...Snape! > And Lupin didn't laugh or criticize him for that, either. Lupin > just helped him create a very funny image for the Riddikulus charm. > > What I'm getting at is that trying to learn from someone who > terrifies you and makes you feel small may work for some folk; for > others, especially sensitive types, such humiliations on the part of > a teacher are more likely to cause the student to (1) withdraw and > close down; (2) fight back. Del replies : Alla, Lee, I know exactly what you mean, and believe me I too want to protect Neville from Snape. But to be fair, I also have to point out that using Neville as a proof that Snape is inept as a teacher is not a good idea. Here's why : 1. Neville was not exactly a picture of confidence when he arrived at Hogwarts. We know that his Gran made life hard for him. So hard that during that famous Boggart lesson with Lupin, Neville pointed out that he wasn't too keen on seeing his Gran rather than Snape. 2. Neville is not a picture of confidence in any other class as far as we know. We know that he's good at Herbology, but we don't get more details than that. And as far as the other lessons go : Transfiguration : McGonagall says in OoP that Neville's work is fine, he just needs some more *confidence* DADA : in GoF, Harry is *amazed* to see Neville volunteering an answer during the Unforgivables lesson. 3. As far as we know, Neville is the only one who seems to truly suffer from Snape's teaching methods. Nobody else likes them, but Neville is the only one who suffers from them. One kid, who was already damaged before he started school ? Not much of a proof. 4. Neville may have melted a dozen cauldrons in Potions, but he never melted himself. Came close to it, yes, but never turned hysterics or whatever. So it seems that Snape is not terryfying him so much that he can't even think anymore. 5. Neville *did* learn enough to do a good enough job at his OWLs. >From what Harry saw, Neville won't end up with a T, or even a D. It's not that bad. So yes I agree that Snape is awful as a man, and that his teaching methods are not those that would work best on Neville, or most kids for that matter. But that doesn't make him an inept teacher... unfortunately. If it did, maybe someone would react, hopefully. Del From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jun 18 13:25:58 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:25:58 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101879 I don't think anyone has commented on the subject of yesterday's Leaky Cauldron article: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/004817.html It relates to an Entertainment News item here: http://tinyurl.com/2lwuz A PhD student at James Cook University at Cairns in Australia, Ms Giardina, claims that childrens literature has a 'pro-adult' agenda (my words): "On the surface the text seems to say, 'Look kids! This is your culture. We're on your side, especially against adult authority figures'," Ms Giardina said. "But a closer analysis demonstrates that the writer is merely using this strategy to sell adult ideas such as: 'adults know best', and, 'parents are a source of security when things get tough'," she said. I'd be interested to know what you all think, insofar as this applies to the Harry Potter series. David From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 13:30:24 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:30:24 -0000 Subject: Fawkes' Intelligence (Re: Chamber of Secrets same as Room..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101880 Geoff: > '"First of all, Harry, I want to thank you," said Dumbledore, eyes > twinkling again. "You must have shown mw real loyalty down in the > Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you."' > > (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.244 UK edition) > > How was Fawkes called? Did Dumbledore sense something or did the > bird? The import of Dumbledore's words seems to suggest that Fawkes > made a decision himself - to go to the Chamber and to take the hat. > Also the bird also knew how to get to the Chamber. OK, how > intelligent are phoenixes? Jen: Hi Geoff! Thanks for all the canon quotes upthread. I agree Fawkes went to the Chamber on his own. Otherwise, if Fawkes was primed by Dumbledore to go *only* if Harry expressed loyalty to him--that strikes me as a little too arrogant for Dumbledore! Unlike Voldemort, DD doesn't require adulation and expressions of loyalty to consider someone an ally. Regarding intelligence, Fawkes appears to have more than many of the human characters ;). He is cognizant of what a person needs without direction, like shedding the tears on Harry's wound in the Chamber, and bringing the Diary to Harry so he could plunge the basilisk fang into it. On another canon note of interest, we've seen examples of all of Fawkes magical properties as explained in FBAWTFT (p.32): 1) Disappear and re-appear at will (OOTP in the MOM) 2) Phoenix song is magical, reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and strike fear in the hearts of impure(GOF) 3) Carry immensely heavy loads (COS) 4) Tears have healing properties (COS) Wonder if that means anything? FB states that the Phoenix can live to an immense age, but not forever. And we have no clue how old Fawkes is, or who he belonged to before Dumbledore. But surely he won't die in the series, since the imagery of the Phoenix is so important to the story. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 13:35:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <001201c45485$e2763e00$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101881 Trevor wrote: > Stop the cycle of abuse. Snape is an adult and must own his actions; Del replies : As I said in another post, it just doesn't work like that. An abused kid who turns abuser is still victim of his abuse. In order to stop abusing he needs to : 1. Realise what's going on (and no it's not that obvious) 2. Get help (which is a very hard thing to do for some) So IF Snape was indeed abused as a kid, he's as much a victim as an abuser in his abuse of the kids, and they ALL need help. Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 13:46:36 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:46:36 -0000 Subject: Out there theory about Dumbledore and the phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101882 hettibe: > Dumbledore is said to be looking tired and old as the Phoenix does > before it regenerates, his originally red hair echoes the colours of > the bird and in Chamber of Secrets Dumbledore is represented by the > phoenix in the battle against the basilisk. Jen: I've seen threads on this idea, but not quite the way you put it, with the connection of Dumbldore looking old (and possibly in need of regeneration!). I really like this idea that Dumbledore is a human Phoenix, although it may just be for symbolism more than anything else. Why would he be interested in the Elixer of Life if he knew he would live the life of a Phoenix? hettibe: > Could these, and other instances, be pointers to Dumbledore's > regeneration and 'circular life' by one of the Weasley brothers going > back in time to be Dumbledore. Or possibly some other sort of > immortality for him. Jen: I was just reading Fantastic Beasts for another post and noticed in JKR's world at least, the Phoenix is not immortal, but lives to an 'immense age'. That certainly could apply to Dumbledore in human terms, although we've seen others who are older like Marchbanks. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 13:58:52 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:58:52 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > I don't think anyone has commented on the subject of yesterday's > Leaky Cauldron article: > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/004817.html > > It relates to an Entertainment News item here: > > http://tinyurl.com/2lwuz > > A PhD student at James Cook University at Cairns in Australia, Ms > Giardina, claims that childrens literature has a 'pro-adult' agenda > (my words): > > "On the surface the text seems to say, 'Look kids! This is your > culture. We're on your side, especially against adult authority > figures'," Ms Giardina said. > > "But a closer analysis demonstrates that the writer is merely using > this strategy to sell adult ideas such as: 'adults know best', > and, 'parents are a source of security when things get tough'," she > said. > > I'd be interested to know what you all think, insofar as this > applies to the Harry Potter series. > > David Well, IMHO, these themes are initially presented in the books. Harry finds a home, a family and love at the Burrow, and surrogate parents in Molly and Arthur. This is, of course, something that he never experienced before. He also comes to see Sirius as a dad/best friend/older brother, and this is, of course, the reason why LV plants those memories in his head in OotP. Sirius becomes the person Harry turns to when he needs advice or help, and it can be argued that if Harry had used his mirror properly, then the end of Order would also be very different. His own parents died to save him, and their shadows protected him from LV, when he most needed them, in GoF. And as to the adults know best theme, this is also present in the begining. Harry comes to believe in the first two books that DD can fix anything and can solve any problem, and Harry doesn't question DD further about why LV wanted him dead in SS. Harry trusts DD implicitly even after PoA, when he can't, I believe the line is pull some magical solution out of thin air, or something to that effect. On the other hand, and there always is another hand, these themes are also refuted in the books. Harry survives ten years of abuse at the hands of the Dursleys because his parents aren't there, and must very much rely on himself in many situations. Sirius makes some mistakes dealing with Harry in OotP (though Harry didn't see them that way) and now even Sirius isn't there with him anymore. And to top it all off, Harry finds out that DD has been withholding some major truths from Harry for the last five years, namely the prophecy, and even DD admits that if he had told Harry the truth from the begining then things would have been very different. It remains to be seen how these revelations will affect Harry's relationship with DD, but add the other authority figures in Harry's life who give him little reason to turn to them for help and who is he left with? Molly-coddling Molly? Not always the best option. The only two people Harry trusts right now are Ron and Hermione, and what with Ron and his assertations that Snape is evil and Hermione surely being set up for a big fall information-wise, our poor lad is in quite a state. This is actually one of the reasons I really like the books, the kids get to do what they want without much interference with growups (I mean, who wouldn't want to have adventures in a medieval castle with magic wands and such!). Anyway, interesting theories, nonetheless, though both sides seem to be presented in the novels. Meri - who can hardly believe that the one year anniversary of Order is upon us...when oh when is book six? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 14:15:13 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:15:13 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101884 David wrote: > A PhD student at James Cook University at Cairns in Australia, Ms > Giardina, claims that childrens literature has a 'pro-adult' agenda > (my words): Del replies : I went to read that article. My first comment is : if Ms Giardina meant to talk about children's literature, what did she choose HP for ?? JKR herself said that those books aren't kids books. They are books she writes to please herself, and she's not a kid. Ms Giardina wrote : > "On the surface the text seems to say, 'Look kids! This is your > culture. We're on your side, especially against adult authority > figures'," Ms Giardina said. Del replies : I guess I wasn't a normal kid. I never felt like I was living in another world, or had another culture than adults did. And I sure never felt like adults were an enemy to fight ! Some specific adults, yes, and some specific kids too, but not adults as a whole. Ms Giardina wrote : > "But a closer analysis demonstrates that the writer is merely using > this strategy to sell adult ideas such as: 'adults know best', > and, 'parents are a source of security when things get tough'," she > said. Del replies : What's wrong with those ideas ??? When I was a kid, I did believe that *usually* adults know best, and that usually parents are a source of security. I just don't understand where this idea that kids and adults are at war comes from. OK, teenagers are another matter, but even they usually believe that there are adults out there who are right and safe. And as far as HP is concerned, I'm not so sure the books defend the idea that adults know best. Sure, DD is the Wise Man Who Knows Best, but he's pretty much the only one and he makes huge mistakes anyway. Many other adults are shown as being right sometimes, but wrong at other times. And the only character apart from DD who's been repeatedly shown to be annoyingly right is a kid : Hermione, who also happens to be greatly wrong once in a while. As for Harry himself, he's got times when he realises that he should have listened to the adults, sure, but he also has times when he can be proud he followed his own idea. Morevoer, the books don't distribute the roles stricly between the kids and the adults. There are good and bad people both among the kids and the adults, and in OoP it's made quite clear that kids and adults should work together as equals. In fact, considering that Sirius's death could probably have been avoided if the kids had been granted full membership in the Order, I'd say one of the major lessons of OoP is that kids should not be treated like cattle. Now, if *this* is not PRO-kid literature, I don't know what is :-) Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 14:22:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:22:10 -0000 Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <20040617205118.56189.qmail@web50808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: Peter: > For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies and shows only occasional (and ambiguous) interest in matters of the heart (as she does when she advises Harry about his relationship with Cho)? Of the principal teenage characters in the novel, only Ginny Weasley appears to experiencing the normal dating game for young teenagers. > > Comments? Geoff: Why shouldn't he have not become aware? We all develop at different speeds and at different ages. To be quite frank, at that age I was probably Ron Weasley Mk.II and would have come within that delightful category defined by Hermione (?) as having the emotional range of a teaspoon! From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Jun 18 14:28:09 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:28:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome to HPfGU References: Message-ID: <002301c45540$7ab44940$6501a8c0@DocSavage> No: HPFGUIDX 101886 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "iggymcsnurd" >To: >Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:50 PM >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome to HPfGU > >A slightly distracted and disoriented Elf walks up to you, wearing a >pair of thick, purple wool socks, and a vivid, kelley green vest >with electric blue paisley. Worn under this vest, you can see a >poncho made of a tea towel and bearing the Hogwart's crest. Looking >up at you, he gives you a smile that seems just a little to >mischievous for your average Elf, and waves, introducing himself. > >> remainder snipped << *sigh* Ever have one of those days when nothing seems to work right? This wasn't intended to be sent to the list itself, rather it was supposed to be sent to the new list members I am assigned to as a Welcome Elf. (It appears that YahooMort has decided to intercept my owls and find a way to misdirect them.) Again, humble apologies from this Elf. I shall now go punish myself. *toddles off to the kitchen to find an oven for his years, repeatedly whacking himself with his ever-present rubber turnip as he goes.* Iggy McSnurd From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 18 14:34:24 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:34:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101887 * I am hoping not to go OT by discussing this but since this is a > Sirius Bike thread I will mention it anyway, in the Book Day online > chat interview with JKR that I read recently JK said that careful > readers probably already know where Sirius Bike is now. I am > guessing she has casually referred to someone having seen it in the > books perhaps transformed into something else but having similar > features. Has there been discussion on this anybody? The best guess I've heard is that the bike is in the Forbidden Forest. Cannon support is minimal, but that is where the Ford Anglia ended up (and we haven't seen it out of there since, and only in there in CoS), and Hagrid had the bike last and he spends some of his time in the Forest, and is about the only one who does. Gina: * I still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car and THAT is the real reason he was under investigation at the ministry - so yes it would be in the forest. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 14:36:22 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:36:22 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101888 > Alla wrote : > > I am also in agreement with Batchevra - if Snape is uncapable of > > overcoming those effects of the abuse, let him hate those childrein > > in private, but not take it out on them. > > Del replies : > Why should we expect him to do that ?? Nobody is forbidding him from > doing it, and I suspect he gets some kind of twisted pleasure out of > it. So why ever should he restrain from doing it ?? > Why should we expect him to do that? For the same reason I expect my neighbor not to let his dog crap on my lawn. For the same reason I expect the person behind me at the grocery store not to bump into my heels with a shopping cart. For the same reason I expect my co-workers to do their job and not stick it on me. And I disagree that D-Dore or others have not "forbidden him." No one said Snape wasn't clever and capable of being secretive. And like many abusers, he has instilled such fear in his victims that they could be afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. When Snape speaks out against Harry in public -- PoA hospital scene, GoF tourney participants scene -- D- Dore slaps him down. Darrin -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 14:38:20 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:38:20 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101889 Let's say I have a favourite TV series, and each time it's rerun, I keep missing the very same episode (happened to me in RL, dead annoying :-) Well, it's not exactly that I miss the episode, it's just that I'm always interrupted sometime through it. But each time, I get to see a bit more of it. And then comes the day when I get to see almost all of it, and surprise ! My favourite character falls off a cliff and is considered dead. But wait ! I know that this episode was originally aired years ago, and that in the current episodes, my darling is alive. So of course I guess that he's going to be found in the last remaining minutes, right ? So my question is this : Harry had been having the same dream for almost a year. Each time he sees a bit more of it, but it's always the same dream, down to the details. And one day he sees Sirius being tortured. But it's still the very same dream ! The same one that he had several months ago, he's just seen more of it. It's NOT AT ALL like the dream about Arthur Weasley, which came completely out of nowhere and wasn't related to anything he'd seen before. So how could Harry believe that this dream about Sirius was showing him something that was actually happening ? Del From rzl46 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 14:44:13 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:44:13 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Let's say I have a favourite TV series, and each time it's rerun, I > keep missing the very same episode (happened to me in RL, dead > annoying :-) Well, it's not exactly that I miss the episode, it's just > that I'm always interrupted sometime through it. But each time, I get > to see a bit more of it. And then comes the day when I get to see > almost all of it, and surprise ! My favourite character falls off a > cliff and is considered dead. > But wait ! I know that this episode was originally aired years ago, > and that in the current episodes, my darling is alive. So of course I > guess that he's going to be found in the last remaining minutes, right ? > > So my question is this : Harry had been having the same dream for > almost a year. Each time he sees a bit more of it, but it's always the > same dream, down to the details. And one day he sees Sirius being > tortured. But it's still the very same dream ! The same one that he > had several months ago, he's just seen more of it. It's NOT AT ALL > like the dream about Arthur Weasley, which came completely out of > nowhere and wasn't related to anything he'd seen before. So how could > Harry believe that this dream about Sirius was showing him something > that was actually happening ? > > Del In your example of the television show, you, I'm assuming, aren't as emotionally attatched to your favorite character as Harry is to Sirius. I'll allow that if Harry were able to emotionally detatch himself, he would have seen that he shouldn't believe his dream. But as it was, he saw the adult who means the most to him being tortured. I can excuse the fact that he wasn't thinking clearly in this case. Besides, if Harry always reacted perfectly rationally, we wouldn't enjoy the series as much, would we? MaggieB From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 14:56:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:56:57 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101891 I, Del, wrote : > > Why should we expect Snape to do that ?? Nobody is forbidding him > > from doing it, and I suspect he gets some kind of twisted pleasure > > out of it. So why ever should he restrain from doing it ?? Darrin replied : > Why should we expect him to do that? > > For the same reason I expect my neighbor not to let his dog crap on > my lawn. > > For the same reason I expect the person behind me at the grocery > store not to bump into my heels with a shopping cart. > > For the same reason I expect my co-workers to do their job and not > stick it on me. Del answers : Yep, and if they do, you're going to do something about it, right ? Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something about Snape's classes. Darrin wrote : > And I disagree that D-Dore or others have not "forbidden him." > No one said Snape wasn't clever and capable of being secretive. And > like many abusers, he has instilled such fear in his victims that > they could be afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. > > We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. Del replies : We're talking about someone(DD) who knows when Harry leaves his dormitory in the middle of the night covered by an Invisibility Cloak. I won't believe that he doesn't know *exactly* what's going on during Potions. As for the kids being too scared to talk, I don't buy that either. First because most of them are NOT that scared of Snape. Only Harry and Neville are truly abused after all. And second because I'm sure at least one of them *would* have mentioned that in their letter to their parents. When one teacher terrorised my sister's class (11-year old kids), it took only a few months for most parents to find out about it. Darrin wrote : > When Snape speaks out against Harry in public -- PoA hospital scene, > GoF tourney participants scene -- D-Dore slaps him down. Del replies : All he usually says is "that's enough Severus". Not what I would call slapping him down. If DD truly wanted to convey to Snape that he wants him to stop that behaviour right now, he'd find another way. We see him silencing other people throughout the books by using his own inside power or whatever it is, but we never see him use that power against Snape. It doesn't look like he really wants to chastise Snape. And if he, as the Headmaster, has no problem with one of the teachers' methods, who will ? > Darrin > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. Del replies : I agree. But they should be given incentives to do so when they don't find it in themselves to behave. Nobody's giving Snape any incentive to behave, why should he care ? Del From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jun 18 14:56:18 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:56:18 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101892 > Meri wrote: > > And to > top it all off, Harry finds out that DD has been withholding some > major truths from Harry for the last five years, namely the > prophecy, and even DD admits that if he had told Harry the truth > from the begining then things would have been very different. > > Meri - who can hardly believe that the one year anniversary of Order > is upon us...when oh when is book six? boyd: Meri, I just keep wondering whether DD really did tell Harry the whole prophecy yet? Certainly there are cicumstances around the prophecy and/or GH and/or Harry's family and/or Harry's connection to LV that we don't yet understand, else we would know how Harry can defeat LV. And I think DD knows those circumstances and their implications, thus the gleam in his eye, references to old magic, etc. So what is DD holding back on? And why? Is he still lying about the prophecy, as some have suggested? Or is he merely not telling Harry some key piece of information that Harry hasn't asked for yet? I guess it all goes back to: who is DD, and what is he capable of? boyd - who is also shocked (shocked!) to find that OoP is a year old and yet book is still only in outline form (per JKR website) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 18 14:58:37 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:58:37 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101893 > vmonte wrote: > I do have one comment though. If > > Harry is captured and then taken to GH by the DE's so that the > Potter family is killed together, it may very well be Lily who recognizes him as her son (and no one else). Voldemort doesn't really pay attention to small details does he. Besides, he doesn't see James on a daily basis, unlike Snape does. Snape, hmmmm now that is interesting > > > > Potioncat wrote: > We've gotten a lot of miles out of this dream! > I have one quibble. Unless Lily was expecting her baby's future > self, she would have no reason to recognise teenage Harry. Mandy here: Unless he calls her 'mum'? Or gives her some hint as to who he is. It would be astounding to her, but if she see him standing before her looking just like her husband and sees her own eyes looking back, she would know who it was. Could she accept it? I think so, particularly if it comes just when she is about to give up hope of her baby son surviving the attack. If she sees a grown up Harry standing before her, she'll know he'll survive. Yeah it's a stretch, but..... Mandy I just don' know From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 15:04:13 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:04:13 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101894 I, Del, wrote : > > So my question is this : Harry had been having the same dream for > > almost a year. Each time he sees a bit more of it, but it's always > > the same dream, down to the details. And one day he sees Sirius > > being tortured. But it's still the very same dream ! The same one > > that he had several months ago, he's just seen more of it. It's > > NOT AT ALL like the dream about Arthur Weasley, which came > > completely out of nowhere and wasn't related to anything he'd seen > > before. So how could Harry believe that this dream about Sirius > > was showing him something that was actually happening ? MaggieB answered : > In your example of the television show, you, I'm assuming, aren't as > emotionally attatched to your favorite character as Harry is to > Sirius. Del replies : You wanna bet ;-) ? MaggieB also wrote : > I'll allow that if Harry were able to emotionally detatch > himself, he would have seen that he shouldn't believe his dream. > But as it was, he saw the adult who means the most to him being > tortured. I can excuse the fact that he wasn't thinking clearly in > this case. Besides, if Harry always reacted perfectly rationally, > we wouldn't enjoy the series as much, would we? Del replies : In fact, I did NOT enjoy that part of the book AT ALL. I kept screaming in my head : "You've had that dream for months, how can you believe it's happening now, and besides what would Sirius be doing at the MoM ? Come on, WAKE UP !!" And I was SOOOOO mad at him for yelling at Hermione when she tried to put some sense in him. *I* would have *slapped* him to calm him down and force him to think rationally. I was in fact severely disappointed she didn't do it. Del, who thinks a friend shouldn't scare you into agreeing with him anyway, but that's another matter. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:08:27 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:08:27 -0000 Subject: Fortifications at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101895 > Arya wrote: Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps Hogwarts, to an > intruder with evil intents, can become a maze? With all those moving staircases will effect either a maze or a trap if they are in a "defensive" mode? I'm of the belief that Hogwarts has mnay more eyes and ears than just those that can be seen. Mandy here: Nice idea except that Sirius gained entry, all the way into the Gryffindor common room, with evil intent. Everyone was wrong in believing he was after Harry when in fact he was after Peter, but either way, he was there to commit murder. Wouldn't the school have wanted to confuse him to protect the innocent inside? Perhaps the school recognized him as one of its own, but then it would recognize Voldemort as Tom, one of its own too. Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 15:12:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:12:54 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101896 > > > vmonte responds: > > I understand your feelings Potioncat. I actually put "time-travel > related" on the subject heading so that people who object to this > theory could just skip over my post. Potioncat: Oh, I have no doubt that time travel will play a role again. We were told too much when Hermione and Harry used it. The part about wizards killing themselves by mistake was a glaring example that I hope doesn't foreshadow anything. vmonte > Every single person in that room looked at my brother and said oh my > god it's Franco (my father). > > Now my brother doesn't look exactly like my father he has "deliberate > mistakes." Potioncat: But in that situation, people are expecting to see relatives and immediately understand that someone resembles someone else. Or if two relatives are close in age, might be confused for one another. But no one would have immediately thought "Oh, there's the baby visiting as his future self." vmonte: I wonder what Lily would think if she saw someone that looked like > James but with her eyes. She already knows that her baby child has > her eyes, right? And if she knew that James was dead already... Potioncat ( I should have put my last section here instead, but I'm not talented enough to move it.) Still, I don't think Lily would recognize Harry unless she was expecting her son to come back from the future) Again, it's just a tiny point and we'll have to see what JKR does, but time must play into this. Potioncat (who just happened to catch a Spongebob episode in which SpongeBob keeps repeating his actions and Squidward has a room full of clocks!....Thanks to my Spongebob-Harry-Potter-Fan 10 year old.) From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jun 18 15:15:16 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:15:16 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101897 > Del wrote: > I went to read that article. My first comment is : if Ms Giardina > meant to talk about children's literature, what did she choose HP for > ?? JKR herself said that those books aren't kids books. They are books > she writes to please herself, and she's not a kid. Agreed, o Del-of-the-wonderful-posts! Why didn't she look at any number of famous/recent books where the kids are the central and heroic characters *despite* the best efforts of adults to thwart them? Aren't The Phantom Tollbooth and Holes famous enough? Or for the recent ones, Hoot, House of the Scorpion, the Lemony Snicket books and The Amulet of Samarkand? Geez, kids books with nonexistent/inept/uninformed/mean/evil adults are a dime a dozen. Why do people love to bash HP? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 15:20:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:20:45 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101898 I've found myself those days defending the bad character (namely Snape), which goes completely against my own beliefs, as I'm a Christian. But I'm deeply aware that it is *because* I'm a Christian that I believe that bad is wrong. It's because I believe there's a God out there who will punish those who do bad and reward those who do good (simplified verson, but that will do for now). And I'm also deeply aware that those who don't believe in a Higher Force like me have NO reason to choose good over bad other than their own decision and preferences. Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark Arts and seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life so to speak. He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, and seems to prefer darkness and cruelty. And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ? Del From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:21:02 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:21:02 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101899 > Darrin replied : > > Why should we expect him to do that? > > > > For the same reason I expect my neighbor not to let his dog crap on > > my lawn. > > > > For the same reason I expect the person behind me at the grocery > > store not to bump into my heels with a shopping cart. > > > > For the same reason I expect my co-workers to do their job and not > > stick it on me. > > Del answers : > Yep, and if they do, you're going to do something about it, right ? > Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something about > Snape's classes. You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we won't go!" All I keep hearing about is the culture of abuse that is somehow acceptable in these schools, even though NO OTHER teacher behaves like Snape. Wouldn't that culture also mean kids aren't going to be as independent? > Darrin wrote : > > And I disagree that D-Dore or others have not "forbidden him." > > No one said Snape wasn't clever and capable of being secretive. And > > like many abusers, he has instilled such fear in his victims that > > they could be afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. > > > > We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. > > Del replies : > We're talking about someone(DD) who knows when Harry leaves his > dormitory in the middle of the night covered by an Invisibility Cloak. > I won't believe that he doesn't know *exactly* what's going on during > Potions. Fine, don't believe it. But D-Dore's public responses to Snape indicate that if he knew everything that was going on in Snape's class, he'd have a different reaction. > As for the kids being too scared to talk, I don't buy that either. > First because most of them are NOT that scared of Snape. Only Harry > and Neville are truly abused after all. And second because I'm sure at > least one of them *would* have mentioned that in their letter to their > parents. When one teacher terrorised my sister's class (11-year old > kids), it took only a few months for most parents to find out about it. Hermione is verbally abused and is left to fend for herself after an injury. Ron is also verbally abused. > > Darrin > > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. > > Del replies : > I agree. But they should be given incentives to do so when they don't > find it in themselves to behave. Nobody's giving Snape any incentive > to behave, why should he care ? > Even if I bought, which I don't, the premise that people above Snape should be doing more to stop this, that still doesn't mean Snape is right. You are talking about Snape as my sister talks about her three-year-old niece. "No one says it's wrong, so keep doing it!" This is a man who is nearly 40! Darrin From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 15:22:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:22:11 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101900 Darrin: > We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. When Snape speaks out against > Harry in public -- PoA hospital scene, GoF tourney participants scene -- D- > Dore slaps him down. > > Darrin > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. Potioncat: Interesting comments. Can you give the canon for the scenes where DD "slaps him down"? But I will say, that many have commented on Snape as a victim himself and I would have to say, that if that is JKR's intent, then DD is dealing in his own way to Snape's behavior. And his own way, in general is very much a slow "let them learn it at they are able" sort of approach. From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:21:55 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:21:55 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101901 Darrin (my sweetie pie) wrote: > > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. > > Del replies : > I agree. But they should be given incentives to do so when they don't > find it in themselves to behave. Nobody's giving Snape any incentive > to behave, why should he care ?> It is true that Snape has no incentive to behave more appropriately so he feels free to be nasty a good deal of the time, but that doesn't make it okay. I don't believe for one moment that Snape isn't aware that he often treats students (Gryffindors) in particular with a complete lack of respect. He must have known he was terrifying Neville when he used Trevor in an experiment. Using someone's pet in an experiment where the pet may die? Anyone would know that was malicious. It is also true that Hogwarts students generally do not complain about their professors (well, the Slytherins do), but again, that does not mean their professors are all saints. Children often find it difficult to find their voices to speak up against authority figures. It is amazing that children come forward at all, in many cases, which is why so many abusers and so many bad teachers have long lasting sadistic careers and retire with pensions (or a long list of victims). Maybe Snape's actions do not affect his students as much as we make out. That doesn't mean that Snape is a nice guy who really cares about his job. If I worked with someone like him, I'd avoid him if he spoke to me the way he spoke to Hermione in GoF. If he was my teacher, I'd probably fail his classes and if he taught in my school, most of the students would cut. Isn't he lucky to teach in an environment where his authority knows so few boundaries? --jenny from ravenclaw, eagerly awaiting the start of her summer vacation From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:32:43 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:32:43 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" < delwynmarch at y...> wrote: > > > And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to > choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so > what ? This is where you lost me. To use a legal cliche, "your rights end at my nose" Snape has the right to hate who he wants, but his actions have real impact on people and interfere with his job. He didn't have "the right" as a teacher to let Hermione fend for herself after being hit with the tooth enlarging thing. His job means getting students who have been injured, even though stupidity, to medical treatment. And just because someone has "the right" to say or do something means people shouldn't oppose it. The KKK has the right to do what they do, but I despise them. Darrin From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:34:40 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:34:40 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101903 Del said, of Snape: > And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to > choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so > what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses > ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and > prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than > light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he > breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ?> Come on, Del, do you really believe this? If Snape wants to be an asshole, fine. The problem is that he takes out his own "Dark" beliefs on others. I can't see how Higher Forces come into play here anyway. Where is there a culture that expects people to be cruel most if not all of the time? I'm Jewish and we aren't rushing out to insult our children or play favorites or hold grudges for decades at a time. Snape is a delighfully complicated and fascinating character, but I cannot excuse the attitude he shows his students who are in a positon of subordination and inexperience next to him. We may just have to agree to disagree. --jenny from ravenclaw From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:35:34 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:35:34 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101904 Darrin (my sweetie pie) wrote: > > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. > > Del replies : > I agree. But they should be given incentives to do so when they don't > find it in themselves to behave. Nobody's giving Snape any incentive > to behave, why should he care ?> It is true that Snape has no incentive to behave more appropriately so he feels free to be nasty a good deal of the time, but that doesn't make it okay. I don't believe for one moment that Snape isn't aware that he often treats students (Gryffindors) in particular with a complete lack of respect. He must have known he was terrifying Neville when he used Trevor in an experiment. Using someone's pet in an experiment where the pet may die? Anyone would know that was malicious. It is also true that Hogwarts students generally do not complain about their professors (well, the Slytherins do), but again, that does not mean their professors are all saints. Children often find it difficult to find their voices to speak up against authority figures. It is amazing that children come forward at all, in many cases, which is why so many abusers and so many bad teachers have long lasting sadistic careers and retire with pensions (or a long list of victims). Maybe Snape's actions do not affect his students as much as we make out. That doesn't mean that Snape is a nice guy who really cares about his job. If I worked with someone like him, I'd avoid him if he spoke to me the way he spoke to Hermione in GoF. If he was my teacher, I'd probably fail his classes and if he taught in my school, most of the students would cut. Isn't he lucky to teach in an environment where his authority knows so few boundaries? --jenny from ravenclaw, eagerly awaiting the start of her summer vacation From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 15:36:03 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:36:03 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Darrin: > > We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. When Snape speaks out > against > > Harry in public -- PoA hospital scene, GoF tourney participants > scene -- D- > > Dore slaps him down. > > > > Darrin > > -- Finds it's better to expect people to behave themselves. > > Potioncat: > Interesting comments. > > Can you give the canon for the scenes where DD "slaps him down"? He put the beat down on him verbally! "That will do, Severus!" "That's enough, Severus!" Punk-slapped him all up and down the block! Seriously, for D-Dore, those are harsh words indeed! > But I will say, that many have commented on Snape as a victim > himself and I would have to say, that if that is JKR's intent, then > DD is dealing in his own way to Snape's behavior. And his own way, > in general is very much a slow "let them learn it at they are able" > sort of approach. That's fine for students, but please, if Snape hasn't learned to be a decent human being by his late 30s, I have little hopes that providing him with fresh meat every year with a new class is going to help much more. Darrin -- The Punk Slappers would be a great name for a band. From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 15:35:54 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:35:54 -0000 Subject: Fishing... (Warning time-travel related) about Marchbanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101906 vmonte: > > My guess is that Ron will be able to communicate with Harry and > Hermione. He may take a piece of Sirius's mirror back in time and > communicate as with walkie-talkies. Janelle: I always though it would be interesting if Ron didn't have a way to communicate with the others and didn't know how things ended up. If Ron gets sent back in book 6, or even early in book 7, that means the end of Dumbledore knowing everything that's going on all the time, although I'm sure he still has his ways of gaining information, he's lost the advantage of having lived through it once before and is as clueless as to what will happen as everyone else. I still haven't worked out how he would know to call him self Dumbledore right away though, unless Dumbledore himself tips him off... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 15:49:30 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:49:30 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101907 I, Del, wrote : > > Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something > > about Snape's classes. Darrin replied : > You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we > won't go!" Del replies : Actually, they did do it with Umbridge. We are told that entire classes started using the Skiving Snackboxes to skip her lessons. But we don't hear anything like that about Potions. And I don't think that's just because they are all too petrified by fear to think of it :-) When I said "someone", I was more thinking of people in power : other teachers, DD, parents... Darrin wrote : > All I keep hearing about is the culture of abuse that is somehow > acceptable in these schools, even though NO OTHER teacher behaves > like Snape. Wouldn't that culture also mean kids aren't going to be > as independent? Del replies : I don't get your link between abuse and independence. Could you elaborate ? And I'd like to point out that it's not really a culture of abuse we're talking about. It's a culture of toughness, with Snape adapting that to his own twisted ways. I, Del, wrote : > > I won't believe that DD doesn't know *exactly* what's going on > > during Potions. Darrin replied : > Fine, don't believe it. But D-Dore's public responses to Snape > indicate that if he knew everything that was going on in Snape's > class, he'd have a different reaction. Del replies : Snape has been a teacher for 14 years, and he's been abusing some of his students for at least 5 years. If DD doesn't know yet, then he's senile and should be replaced presto ! Moreover, if DD isn't aware of the extent of Snape's abuse of Harry, how does he explain that Harry hates Snape so much ? He *does* know that Harry hates Snape with all his guts, so unless he knows why, why doesn't he ask ? Not to mention of course, that DD is a Legilimens. Few people can hide the truth from him. Snape might, but none of the students can. Darrin wrote : > Hermione is verbally abused and is left to fend for herself after an > injury. Ron is also verbally abused. Del replies : The kids are often left to care for themselves when they are injured. Once in a while a teacher or a Prefect will accompany them, but often they are trusted to find the way to the Hospital Wing on their own. And would you also call McGonagall's taunt to Harry and Ron when they were playing with Fake Wands, abuse ? I mean, she said they were acting like little kids in front of the whole class. And what about the bullying of the Slytherins chanting "Weasley is our king" at each match ? A whole House bullying a single student. And yet no teacher tells them to shut up. Life at Hogwarts is tough, and the kids have accepted that. We might not like it, but it won't change anything. Darrin wrote : > Even if I bought, which I don't, the premise that people above Snape > should be doing more to stop this, that still doesn't mean Snape is > right. Del replies : If people above Snape are not the ones who should react, then who should ?? And I have a feeling that Snape might not agree with you about what is right or not. And I say he's entitled to his opinion. If someone doesn't like it, they should go and talk with him. Since nobody does, I guess his idea of right is not that uncommon, or at least it doesn't bother people that much. Darrin wrote : > You are talking about Snape as my sister talks about her > three-year-old niece. > "No one says it's wrong, so keep doing it!" > > This is a man who is nearly 40! Del replies : Yes, but if he grew up hearing those same words, as Draco did, then it's logical to me that he should still think that way now. Especially if nobody ever gave him a reason to change his opinion. Del, who shudders to think what Darrin will think of her new thread - hope it won't give him a heart attack, or worse, make him leave the group... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 16:02:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:02:25 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101908 Darrin wrote : > Snape has the right to hate who he wants, but his actions have real > impact on people and interfere with his job. He didn't have "the > right" as a teacher to let Hermione fend for herself after being hit > with the tooth enlarging thing. His job means getting students who > have been injured, even though stupidity, to medical treatment. Del replies : But Hermione *did* get medical treatment, didn't she ? When she fled, he didn't call after her to come back, he didn't take points from Gryffyndor because she'd gone, he didn't give her a detention. She was a fourth-year student who knew perfectly well where the Hospital Wing was (she even lived there for a while in CoS), so he could trust her to find it on her own. So what was so wrong in what he did ? It was mean of him to say what he said, but did he *really* need to tell her to go get medical help when it was so *obvious* she had to go, and fast too ? I don't think he had any doubt as to where she was going when she ran away. And in fact, she might have gotten to the Hospital Wing faster that way than if Snape had ordered someone to get her there. So if I were really devious I'd say he said his horrible comment to make her get help faster ;-) And as for his hate interfering with his job, we'll have to wait until the OWLs results to judge of that. If the kids did well, then Snape did his job correctly. Darrin wrote : > And just because someone has "the right" to say or do something > means people shouldn't oppose it. The KKK has the right to do what > they do, but I despise them. Del replies : Yes, you despise them, but unless they do something against the law, you can't demand that they be punished or that they stop their activities. You can campaign to change the law, you can try and make your neighbours see things your way, but you can't say they have no right to do what they do. Do you see the difference ? Del, who's glad to see you're still alive and around :-) From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 18 16:07:27 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:07:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with being bad ? Message-ID: <647C9757.0C76772C.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101909 Del: >Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark Arts and >seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life so to speak. >He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, and seems to >prefer darkness and cruelty. > >And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to >choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so >what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses >? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and >prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than >light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he >breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ? Oryomai: What's wrong with being bad? Absolutely nothing. I don't believe in a Higher Force per se, so I don't think that anyone judges me but me. Human beings can be whatever they want. I believe the only thing a Higher Power does is limit us from being what we want and doing what we want to do. (Not to bash anyone's beliefs, I'm merely stating my own. If it comes across as a bash, I apologize!) Perhaps it's just the religious people I know in real life, but I've only ever seen religion come into play to stop someone from doing something they want to do. What Severus does goes against the morals of the people around him, but apparently not against his. While we as readers and the Trio as students see it being "wrong" what he does, he doesn't seem to have a problem sleeping at night. (Unless that's why he was up walking around in GoF -- his cruelty to the students renders him unable to get a good night's rest! *g*) But at the same time we must realize that right and wrong are relative. "We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?" To Severus, there's nothing wrong with verbally assualting his students. To Harry, there's no problem sneaking around in an Invisibility Cloak while blatantly disregarding every single rule and every single thing anyone has told him to keep him safe (OoP, anyone?). Both believe that the other is in the wrong. In reality, no one is in the right or in the wrong. Everyone has both good and evil inside of them; everyone is inherently bad and good. Everyone has to choose. Not everyone is capable of choosing to be good and innocent and nice. I know I can't. Everyone who disagrees with Severus can fight him, and he can fight back. There's no reason that everyone in the world should be good. If everyone was good, then the lower levels of good would have to become evil. Both good and evil must exist. There's a balance. Besides, there's no reason that Severus and LV and Draco should just wake up one day and decide to prance in the flowery meadows, dancing with forest creatures. Although that *is* a lovely mental picture when you think about it... Oryomai --Sometimes, it's good to be bad. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 18 16:12:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:12:17 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101910 snipping a lot > > > > > Potioncat: > > Interesting comments. > > > > Can you give the canon for the scenes where DD "slaps him down"? Darrin responded > He put the beat down on him verbally! > > "That will do, Severus!" > > "That's enough, Severus!" > > Punk-slapped him all up and down the block! > > Seriously, for D-Dore, those are harsh words indeed! Potioncat: Sorry, what I wanted was the book and chapter so that I could better respond to your idea. I knew you had a verbal put down in mind. Potioncat (first time) > > But I will say, that many have commented on Snape as a victim > > himself and I would have to say, that if that is JKR's intent, then > > DD is dealing in his own way to Snape's behavior. And his own way, > > in general is very much a slow "let them learn it at they are able" > > sort of approach. Darrin: > That's fine for students, but please, if Snape hasn't learned to be a decent > human being by his late 30s, I have little hopes that providing him with fresh > meat every year with a new class is going to help much more. Potioncat: So, is that complaint directed to DD? Actually a couple of hundred posts ago (only a day or so in real time) I asked the question: Why did DD hire Snape to teach children in the first place? Nothing about the man would make someone think "Ah, here's a teacher!" If we on the other hand think, DD knows what he's doing and he has a reason, what could it be? Well, that's a valid approach too. It seems to me that DD sees value in Snape and is willing to accept his shortcomings. As he seems to accept Lupin's and Black's. And apparantly accepts the risk to the kids who take Potions. (Here, by the way, I mean a value beyond a useful tool in the war.) Potioncat From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 16:16:46 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:16:46 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101911 It has about driven me mad thinking about the Weasley twins comments to Molly such as: SS pg.92 "I'm not Fred, Im George," said the boy. "Honestly, woman, you call yourself our mother? Cant you tell I'm George?" "Sorry George, dear." "Only joking, I am Fred " This statement in itself could be passed by as just another joke on the part of the twins but when you see again the questioning relationship with this statement: OOP pg. 163 "I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!" What are Fred and I, next-door neighbors? You have to ask yourself why Molly would have said that's everyone in the family unless Molly isn't the twin's biological mother. Then her statement would be correct, and understandable. The twins aren't neighbors but they could be Prewett's. I am not sure how Molly was related to the two Prewett brothers (OOP pg. 174) Gideon and Fabian, but when they were killed in the first war one of the two may have left three-year old orphan twins behind that Molly and Arthur raised as their own. Molly may have changed the boys' last name so they would never know that Voldemort killed their father and possibly seek vengance for their father's death. Molly would have done this to protect the twins and her from not having to further recall the horror that happened the night their biological father/her brother? died. JKR said in her web site under Extra stuff about the Weasley's: Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort. I have been unable to find such referencing in the Sorcerer's Stone version and would very much like to know what is quoted in Philosopher's Stone version about this statement. The relevance to my theory that Molly had "close" family members who died would allow for such an undertaking by Molly to adopt the twins as her own. It would also make the two conversations of the twins and Molly's much more understandable. As to what this could mean to the plot as a whole, I don't think we have been given enough information, yet. There are, however, a few questions about the twins and their shenanigans like in SS pg. 140 "Another Weasley, eh?" said Hagrid, glancing at Ron's freckles. "I spent half me life chasin' yer twin brothers away from the forest." Hagrid must be exaggerating here when he says he has chased the twins away from the forest for half his life but what are they always doing trying to go to the FF? And at Harry's first feast when DD warns pg. 127 "First years should note that the forest on the grounds is forbidden to all pupils. And a few of our older students would do well to remember that as well." DD's twinkling eyes flashed in the direction of the Weasley twins. This is twice in thirteen pages that it has been mentioned about the twin's curiosity with the FF and yet I do not recall a specific instance of seeing the twins in the forest or them even talking about the forest. I have a feeling the twins are going to learn that they are Prewetts in book six and Molly's fear of them attempting to avenge their fathers death will become reality. Snow From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jun 18 16:21:45 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:21:45 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: >> Maybe Snape's actions do not affect his students as much as we make out. > That doesn't mean that Snape is a nice guy who really cares about his job. If > I worked with someone like him, I'd avoid him if he spoke to me the way he > spoke to Hermione in GoF. If he was my teacher, I'd probably fail his classes > and if he taught in my school, most of the students would cut. Isn't he lucky > to teach in an environment where his authority knows so few boundaries? > I suspect you're right. For all the worrying about how children can be damaged by abusive authority figures, neither Harry nor anyone else really seems particularly affected by Snape at all. Harry doesn't behave like a damaged child: he isn't having nightmares, or crying in his room because he has to go to class, or vandalizing the library, or talking about suicide, or getting violent or throwing up after meals or cutting himself. So he dislikes Snape and the hours he spends in his class, and would rather be playing quidditch. He doesn't much like ANY of his classes - he's bored and uninspired pretty much all the time he's in class. He and Ron both are slackers when it comes to homework. I'd say he's behaving pretty normally, and if Snape took a year's sabbatical, Harry's grades and attitude would be marginally better, but there'd be no great difference. Wanda From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 16:28:28 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:28:28 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101913 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > Come on, Del, do you really believe this? If Snape wants to be an > asshole, fine. The problem is that he takes out his own "Dark" > beliefs on others. Del replies : But isn't it what we all do : take out our beliefs on others ? Just because we think our beliefs are good doens't change anything : we still try and make other people act according to our own beliefs, even if they don't believe the same way we do. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I can't see how Higher Forces come into play here anyway. Where is > there a culture that expects people to be cruel most if not all of > the time? Del replies : Out of the top of my head : the Hindu culture has its Untouchables, who can be abused by members of other castes as much as they want, it's legally and morally acceptable and right. Not so long ago it was legally and morally acceptable in various countries around the world to abuse and kill people of specific colours. And so on. But it's not a matter of culture in general anyway : it's a matter of personal belief, or of a specific, restricted culture. Snape is not everyone in the WW. And his beliefs go against those of his general culture. But they are apparently not illegal, or not even immoral in the eyes of most members of that society. People don't seem to like him, but they don't seem to try and make him "see the light", or "the error of his ways". So maybe his beliefs are acceptable in the WW after all ? Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > Snape is a delighfully complicated and fascinating character, but I > cannot excuse the attitude he shows his students who are in a > positon of subordination and inexperience next to him. Del replies : But I can help but think that maybe, if Peter Pettigrew had had such a teacher, he would have been better armed to face LV, and he would have been better able to stand his ground, rather than give in like he did. We know Neville won't give in, and we can't say for sure that Snape's abuse is for nothing in this courage. Del, who reminds everyone that she doesn't like Snape, and doesn't approve of his methods at all, just in case... From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 16:36:16 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:36:16 -0000 Subject: Snape & Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101914 dzeytoun: > > All > > that is being said is that Snape's attitude and remarks are deeply > > hurtful. It really doesn't matter whether he is playing a part or > > not. It also is beside the point what his motivations are. His > > remarks and attitude are deeply hurtful, period. Kneasy: > My point is that Snape's only a part of it. > The misery and suffering in Harry's life is much more than just Snape. > It's a constant - the death of his parents, Privet Drive, Snape, death of > Sirius - it's never-ending. So what's the reason? Why does Harry get > an emotional bashing on such a regular basis? What is the point? > Generation of sympathy? That soon palls because there's so little > contrast. Pretty soon you stop noticing until Harry has another spoonful > piled onto his plate. Or is it something more fundamental and > possibly plot sensitive? If it is I'm damned if I can see where it'll fit. > > Kneasy Annemehr: First off, I'm replying after checking the post for threaded replies; if someone's replied another way, my apologies if I just repeat you here. Anyway, Kneasy, I've had exactly the same thoughts. In GoF, there were repeated phrases along the lines of "it was pain such as Harry had never felt before." Afterward, I remember having the sentiment that that will be quite enough of that; surely Harry will have felt the worst and will now begin to be taught to fight proactively instead. Hah! Then I read OoP. My own fault, for being too Molly Weasleyish, I guess. So what's the point? Well, for one thing, it all leads back to Voldemort. He's the prime cause for everything, even Quidditch losses. It at least makes me believe that Harry cannot truly live while Voldemort survives. Maybe that's more of a theme thing than a plot thing, though. I suppose it could turn out to be Harry's refinement by fire, his hardening into diamond through intense pressure, so that we believe whatever he ends up doing in the end. That's the best I can do for now; time and the next two books will tell. Annemehr From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 17:02:53 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:02:53 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101915 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > I don't believe for one moment that Snape isn't aware that he often > treats students (Gryffindors) in particular with a complete lack of > respect. Del replies : But Snape doesn't seem to care much about respect either. He goes around looking like he's slept in a dustbin and doesn't know where to find a bathroom (slight exxageration ;-) so it doesn't seem like he wants to be respected that much. And the only time we see him insisting on being called "Sir" is when he's trying to annoy Harry. I don't think Snape ever got much respect, and maybe in return he doesn't care about giving any. Maybe that's why DD insists on harry calling him Professor Snape ? Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > He must have known he was terrifying Neville when he used Trevor in > an experiment. Using someone's pet in an experiment where the pet > may die? Anyone would know that was malicious. Del replies : Yes, except that : 1. What was Trevor doing here anyway ? I don't think he was allowed here, so Snape might have been trying to punish Neville. 2. If I remember correctly, Neville had been brewing his potion with Hermione's supposedly discreet help, except that Snape knew. So he could trust that the potion was okay. 3. In OoP, Snape made it clear that he could tell whether a potion was okay or not just by looking at it. So in the end I'm pretty sure Snape knew the potion was fine and Trevor was in no danger. But still, Trevor should not have been here at all so Snape punished Neville. But that's only my interpretation of course :-) Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > It is also true that Hogwarts students generally do not complain > about their professors (well, the Slytherins do), but again, that > does not mean their professors are all saints. Children often find > it difficult to find their voices to speak up against authority > figures. It is amazing that children come forward at all, in many > cases, which is why so many abusers and so many bad teachers have > long lasting sadistic careers and retire with pensions (or a long > list of victims). Del replies : Yep, just look at Umbridge. Harry thought he shouldn't report on her, because he didn't want her to know she'd got to him ! Yet, DD and the teachers all fought her as best they could. If they really wanted to, they would fight Snape too. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > Maybe Snape's actions do not affect his students as much as we make > out. That doesn't mean that Snape is a nice guy who really cares > about his job. If I worked with someone like him, I'd avoid him if > he spoke to me the way he spoke to Hermione in GoF. Del replies : Oh I agree completely ! I don't like Snape or people like him, and I want nothing to do with them. But still, I grant them a right to exist and do as they want. I just do my best to keep away from them. And by the way, I'm not fond of kids like Harry either. Yet I grant *him* too the right to do as he wishes ;-) (And I grant myself the right to complain about him, :-D ) Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > If he was my teacher, I'd probably fail his classes Del replies : Actually, you don't know that. Neville has survived 5 years of Snape. How can you be so sure you wouldn't ? I had my own Snape-like teacher, and I survived a whole year with her, *and* got good results in the end. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote : > Isn't he lucky to teach in an environment where his authority knows > so few boundaries? Del replies : I don't know. Maybe if he was living in a world more like ours, he would learn nicer ways to cope and behave, and maybe he'd be happier. Del From afleitas at bankrate.com Fri Jun 18 17:31:38 2004 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:31:38 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040617090354.0225e938@www.timself.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101916 Lynx412: And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was in charge of his condition. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" snip > Darrin wrote earlier: > > And just because someone has "the right" to say or do something > > means people shouldn't oppose it. The KKK has the right to do what > > they do, but I despise them. > > Del replies : > Yes, you despise them, but unless they do something against the law, > you can't demand that they be punished or that they stop their > activities. You can campaign to change the law, you can try and make > your neighbours see things your way, but you can't say they have no > right to do what they do. Do you see the difference ? > > Del, who's glad to see you're still alive and around :-) Alla: Actually, Dell, NO. Of course I will do things the legal way - as a member of legal profession, taking somebody to court will be an obvious solution, but people do not always have a right to do what they want. As soon as what they do touch the rights of the other person, it stops. Alla, who apologises for OT interlude From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 17:34:44 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:34:44 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" snip < For all the worrying about how children can > be damaged by abusive authority figures, neither Harry nor anyone > else really seems particularly affected by Snape at all. Harry > doesn't behave like a damaged child: he isn't having nightmares, or > crying in his room because he has to go to class, or vandalizing the > library, or talking about suicide, or getting violent or throwing up > after meals or cutting himself. So he dislikes Snape and the hours > he spends in his class, and would rather be playing quidditch. He > doesn't much like ANY of his classes - he's bored and uninspired > pretty much all the time he's in class. He and Ron both are > slackers when it comes to homework. I'd say he's behaving pretty > normally, and if Snape took a year's sabbatical, Harry's grades and > attitude would be marginally better, but there'd be no great > difference. > > Wanda Alla: Well, this is in my opinion absolutely inrealistic aspect of children's reaction to Snape. Although, I guess Harry is supposed to be a "hero", who should overcome everything life throws at him, but again just look at Neville, whose biggest fear is professor Snape. Allla From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 18 17:48:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:48:49 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101919 Del wrote: > I've found myself those days defending the bad character (namely > Snape), which goes completely against my own beliefs, as I'm a > Christian. > > But I'm deeply aware that it is *because* I'm a Christian that I > believe that bad is wrong. It's because I believe there's a God out > there who will punish those who do bad and reward those who do good > (simplified verson, but that will do for now). And I'm also deeply > aware that those who don't believe in a Higher Force like me have NO > reason to choose good over bad other than their own decision and > preferences. > > Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark Arts > and seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life so to > speak. He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, > and seems to prefer darkness and cruelty. > > And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to > choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so > what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he > chooses? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to > fight him and prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes > darkness rather than light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what > Higher Rule is he breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher > Force ? SSSusan: Interesting thoughts, Del. Knee-jerk reaction from me is "citizenship." That is, I don't believe one has to believe in a Higher Force in order to believe that one should behave in "good" or "moral" ways. (I work w/ someone who *wishes* she could believe in a Higher Being but just can't...but she's certainly a very "moral" person and upright citizen, "doing good" where she can and trying never to harm others.) There may not be the same COMPULSION or the same RATIONALIZATION for being good, but there may well be an alternate moral structure based on...who knows what? The golden rule? Good citizenship? I'm sure there is sniggering & eye-rolling out there at that word "citizenship," but seriously, I mean it. If all people simply watch out for themselves only and no one else, aren't we close to anarchy? Even people with a "dark outlook" may not want that. Anarchy is absolute freedom to some people's way of thinking, but it's also absolute "on your own"-ness; there's no protection for you or yours beyond what you can provide. I think many people who don't believe in a Higher Being *do* believe in a civilized world and in doing "what's right." It's true that ol' Snapey doesn't seem a happy, cheerful, do-good kind of guy, but he also DOES do good things: saving Harry; leaving Voldy; helping the Order; cooperating with DD. Yes, I know, we can argue about his MOTIVATION for that--maybe he's not "doing good" so much as watching his own butt--but I'm not totally convinced of that. I think he has a moral compass and is interested in both self- preservation AND in doing good/right when it's something he believes to be important. Clearly, being nice to students isn't one of those "being good" things that he believes to be important. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's setting off for the beach for a week tomorrow a.m. Woo hoo! From afleitas at bankrate.com Fri Jun 18 18:05:15 2004 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:05:15 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101920 snow15145wrote: You have to ask yourself why Molly would have said that's everyone in the family unless Molly isn't the twin's biological mother. Then her statement would be correct, and understandable. The twins aren't neighbors but they could be Prewett's. I am not sure how Molly was related to the two Prewett brothers (OOP pg. 174) Gideon and Fabian, but when they were killed in the first war one of the two may have left three-year old orphan twins behind that Molly and Arthur raised as their own. I have a feeling the twins are going to learn that they are Prewetts in book six and Molly's fear of them attempting to avenge their fathers death will become reality. Kneazelkid: I feel compelled to point out that many of the characters in the series are named for or based on mythological people and beasts (Fluffy = Cerebus; Lupin = Remus from Romulus and Remus; In mythology centaurs can tell the future, many of Sirius' family are named for soem of the brightests stars in our sky, etc). I was thinking about the twins last night while looking at constellations and thought about the Gemini constellation. One of the Gemini twin brothers was killed and the other was so miserable he didn't want to go on living. Then I thought, "Arrg! Not the Weasley twins!" Making matters more grim, many of the side characters in the series have their identity based on myths and since I can't figure out a blatant mythological character for them to be named after (what I mean is, they aren't NAMED for anyone or after anything -- although we can trace meaning for Dumbledore's, McGonagall's, Molly's and Hagrid's names), what if they just share the fate of mytholigical characters of the Gemini? Kneazelkid -- Who thinks she has hit something but fears that she will soon receive many e-mails saying "We've done this before!" From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 18:09:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:09:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > * I am hoping not to go OT by discussing this but since this is a > > Sirius Bike thread I will mention it anyway, in the Book Day online > > chat interview with JKR that I read recently JK said that careful > > readers probably already know where Sirius Bike is now. I am > > guessing she has casually referred to someone having seen it in the > > books perhaps transformed into something else but having similar > > features. Has there been discussion on this anybody? > > > The best guess I've heard is that the bike is in the Forbidden > Forest. Cannon support is minimal, but that is where the Ford Anglia > ended up (and we haven't seen it out of there since, and only in > there in CoS), and Hagrid had the bike last and he spends some of his > time in the Forest, and is about the only one who does. > > > Gina: > * I still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car and THAT is > the real reason he was under investigation at the ministry - so yes it would > be in the forest. Susan (teilani) now: One problem with this... SS 1:14 Hagrid says, "Young Sirius Black _lent_ it to me" (my emphasis) and SS 1:16 Hagrid says, "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back." So, did he? He dropped off baby Harry and left. Where'd Hagrid go? Did he find Sirius and return the bike? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 18:16:27 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:16:27 -0000 Subject: Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > xChris Vineyard wrote: > > "Serpensortia" > > If I'm not mistaken, Snape whispered it to his ear. But of course > he > > wouldn't have been able to cast a spell right for the first time > > right? Maybe Snape taught him since he knows that Malfoy can cast > the > > spell? > > > Potioncat: > It appears Snape told him to cast that spell. It isn't certain if > Snape taught it or simply knew of Draco's ability. At first I > thought it might indicate that Snape spent more time with the > students of his House than McGonagall does. But I've seen posts > that demonstrate Lucius could have taught the spell to Draco. Susan: I assumed Snape taught Draco and other Slytherines that particular spell because the snake represents Slytherine House, but LM could also have taught it to DM since LM was a Slyth and his son now is. I also thought it was supposed to be just a coincidence that DM conjures a snake, and lo and behold, Harry can talk to it. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jun 18 18:17:07 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:17:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's Message-ID: <9.2c3435a0.2e048ba3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101923 In a message dated 6/18/2004 2:08:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, afleitas at bankrate.com writes: Then I thought, "Arrg! Not the Weasley twins!" Making matters more grim, many of the side characters in the series have their identity based on myths and since I can't figure out a blatant mythological character for them to be named after (what I mean is, they aren't NAMED for anyone or after anything -- -------------------------------------- Sherrie here: George, of course, is named for St. George, the dragonslayer, patron saint of England. Pretty good name, if you ask me. Fred(erick) takes us farther afield, to Frederick Barbarossa, the Germanic version of King Arthur - that is, the great hero who sleeps until his country has need of him again. Both of them the defenders of their people... Sherrie (who for once has something to contribute!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 18:19:22 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:19:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101924 Del wrote: >But they are apparently not illegal, or not even immoral in >the eyes of most members of that society. People don't seem to like >him, but they don't seem to try and make him "see the light", or "the >error of his ways". So maybe his beliefs are acceptable in the WW >after all ? Eustace_Scrubb: Well, _as far as we know_, that's true. But given the perspective of the books, we only really know that nobody's tried to make Snape "see the light" in the presence of Harry or any other character who chooses to confide in Harry. I imagine that many people have chosen over the years to have as little to do with Snape as possible, some who might have tried to convince him of "the errors of his ways" probably tried years ago and having failed, gave up. The only character that I would think would be in a position to sanction Snape for his teaching behavior would be Dumbledore (or for brief periods McGonagall or Umbridge). Dumbledore may have tried to change Snape's behavior over the years; if he has, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing he's going to blab to Harry. But Dumbledore may also have simply tolerated this behavior because he needs Snape and can't afford to have him appear to be a truly changed man. McGonnagall's period as Acting Headmistress was brief and tenuous. Umbridge probably approved of Snape's methods, except of course for the fact that he had the students make actual potions using real ingredients, rather than just read about them in books. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From rarpsl at optonline.net Fri Jun 18 18:14:38 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:14:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040616155723.20153.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101925 At 08:57 -0700 on 06/16/2004, K G wrote about Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle: >And another question.... If the pictures in Hogwarts and GP can >talk, why can't HP's pictures of his parents? Do they have to be a >certain size before they can? For the picture to talk, you need the Ghost of the person in the picture (it is the Ghost Talking). Since we know that the ghosts of his parents are in LV's wand, they can not travel to a picture to talk. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 19:21:32 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:21:32 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > snow15145wrote: > You have to ask yourself why Molly would have > said that's everyone in the family unless Molly isn't the twin's > biological mother. Then her statement would be correct, and > understandable. The twins aren't neighbors but they could be > Prewett's. I am not sure how Molly was related to the two Prewett > brothers (OOP pg. 174) Gideon and Fabian, but when they were killed > in the first war one of the two may have left three-year old orphan > twins behind that Molly and Arthur raised as their own. snip> I have a feeling the twins are going to learn that they are > Prewetts in book six and Molly's fear of them attempting to avenge > their fathers death will become reality. > > Kneazelkid: > I feel compelled to point out that many of the characters in the > series are named for or based on mythological people and beasts > (Fluffy = Cerebus; Lupin = Remus from Romulus and Remus; In > mythology centaurs can tell the future, many of Sirius' family are > named for soem of the brightests stars in our sky, etc). I was > thinking about the twins last night while looking at constellations > and thought about the Gemini constellation. One of the Gemini twin > brothers was killed and the other was so miserable he didn't want to > go on living. Then I thought, "Arrg! Not the Weasley twins!" > Making matters more grim, many of the side characters in the series > have their identity based on myths and since I can't figure out a > blatant mythological character for them to be named after (what I > mean is, they aren't NAMED for anyone or after anything -- although > we can trace meaning for Dumbledore's, McGonagall's, Molly's and > Hagrid's names), what if they just share the fate of mytholigical > characters of the Gemini? > > Kneazelkid Snow again: I'm sorry but I dont understand your reply to my post? The main idea was that the Weasley twins are really the Prewett twins. As far as the names representation, along with my theory, I have one: Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon Prewett...F&G. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jun 18 19:33:42 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:33:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Snape-Malfoy connection Message-ID: <1df.236c97d6.2e049d96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101927 In a message dated 6/17/2004 7:48:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > Are you sure? GoF ch 36 > > "Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibly affronted. "A very old > family -- donations to excellent causes--" > > "Mcnair!" Harry continued. > > "Also cleared! Now working for the Ministry!" > > "Avery -- Nott -- Crabbe -- Goyle--" > > "You are merely repeating the names of those who were > acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" said Fudge > angrily. "You could have found those names in old reports of the > trials![...]" Good catch, Pippin. I think there's another bit of info on the subject. I've been searching for it, but can't recall the book it's in. I seem to recall a conversation with Ron [?] in which he comments that MalfoySr., penalties for his DE life due to claiming he'd been Imperio'd, to which Arthur had commented that Lucius didn't need to be imperio'd. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jun 18 19:50:10 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:50:10 -0000 Subject: Fortifications at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101928 Arya wrote: Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps Hogwarts, to an intruder with evil intents, can become a maze? With all those moving staircases will effect either a maze or a trap if they are in a "defensive" mode? I'm of the belief that Hogwarts has many more eyes and ears than just those that can be seen. ------------- Mandy here: Nice idea except that Sirius gained entry, all the way into the Gryffindor common room, with evil intent. Everyone was wrong in believing he was after Harry when in fact he was after Peter, but either way, he was there to commit murder. Wouldn't the school have wanted to confuse him to protect the innocent inside? Perhaps the school recognized him as one of its own, but then it would recognize Voldemort as Tom, one of its own too. ---------- Perhaps it wasn't in defensive mode? Perhaps, because Sirius would have used a secret password to get in through a tunnel (which I am sure he used) he diasabled any alarms? Perhaps, Dumbledore the conveniently all-knowing of just enough to help the plot, get the castle out of "defensive mode" just to allow Sirius to enter? Perhaps, Sirius knew some tricks we've never heard about. I've wondered if, when using the map and you come upon a locked door, will the map always give you the password? It does for "dissendium". Does that map tap into some of the innate magic that is Hogwarts? (Perhaps one of the makers of the map had founders blood that gave the map this ability???) If so, perhaps Sirius knew something else. Perhaps Dumbledore had the castle set to just prevent anyone from stealing/capturing Harry--afterall, DD at least knew Sirius, as a purported servant of LV, wouldn't really be after Harry to kill him but to capture him and attempt to bring back his long lost master. Just thoughts.... Arya From afleitas at bankrate.com Fri Jun 18 19:54:11 2004 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:54:11 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101929 Kneazelkid: I feel compelled to point out that many of the characters in the series are named for or based on mythological people and beasts (Fluffy = Cerebus; Lupin = Remus from Romulus and Remus; In mythology centaurs can tell the future, many of Sirius' family are named for soem of the brightests stars in our sky, etc). I was thinking about the twins last night while looking at constellations and thought about the Gemini constellation. One of the Gemini twin brothers was killed and the other was so miserable he didn't want to go on living. Then I thought, "Arrg! Not the Weasley twins!" Making matters more grim, many of the side characters in the series have their identity based on myths and since I can't figure out a blatant mythological character for them to be named after (what I mean is, they aren't NAMED for anyone or after anything -- although we can trace meaning for Dumbledore's, McGonagall's, Molly's and Hagrid's names), what if they just share the fate of mytholigical characters of the Gemini? Kneazelkid Snow again: I'm sorry but I dont understand your reply to my post? The main idea was that the Weasley twins are really the Prewett twins. As far as the names representation, along with my theory, I have one: Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon Prewett...F&G. Kneazelkid again: No need to apoligize -- I'm afraid I wans't clear because I was too excited. What I should have said was: Snow, that is a very interesting idea! It does seem that Molly is always forgetting that the twins are in the family. As far as your theory that the one or both of the twins will die, I had a similar theory once I started thinking about the names of everyone in the series. Many of them are named by JKR after mytholigical and astronomical characters (see above). I was wondering why the twins don't seem to be named for anyone in mythology (although a recent poster whose name escapes me has some theories) and then I wondered if they are perhaps created after the Gemini twins (who are a constelation). According to mythology, one of the Gemini twins died (in a war, I believe)and the other was so miserable without his brother that he didn't want to go on living. I wonder if perhaps JKR was thinking of the Gemini twins when she created Fred and George and if they will be destined to a similar fate. Was that more clear? Kneazelkid -- who gets a little ahead of herself when she is excited about an idea. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 18 20:26:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:26:30 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > I've found myself those days defending the bad character (namely > Snape), which goes completely against my own beliefs, as I'm a Christian. > > But I'm deeply aware that it is *because* I'm a Christian that I > believe that bad is wrong. It's because I believe there's a God out > there who will punish those who do bad and reward those who do good > (simplified verson, but that will do for now). And I'm also deeply > aware that those who don't believe in a Higher Force like me have NO > reason to choose good over bad other than their own decision and > preferences. > > Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark Arts and > seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life so to speak. > He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, and seems to > prefer darkness and cruelty. > > And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to > choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so > what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses > ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and > prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than > light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he > breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ? > He's entitled - so long as he accepts responsibility for the consequences. And this applies to *any* behaviour by *anybody*. A condition that some only apply to those they're not fond of. They change the rules for those they like. My tenets: You are responsible for your actions. You must accept responsibility for any consequences arising from those actions. OK, that's the basic rules (or some of them) that I live by. How do they impinge on Snape? What effect have his actions had? Any that are significant? Any effect at all? He passes snide comments. So what? What are their effects? Minimal. He throws Harry out of the Occlumency teaching. With what effect? Not much, Harry wasn't going to learn anyway. Harry had already decided not to co-operate. Any action by Snape was icing on the cake - it just gave Harry *his* excuses - "It's all Snape's fault!" Wrong. Does not compute. All religion is a form of social conditioning; it's function is to teach right (you get rewarded) from wrong (you get punished). The WW has no religion. It is a society governed by philosophical principles (i.e. DD) or pragmatism (Fudge). Philosophical principles do not promise retribution for wrong behaviour; they only offer the theoretical 'best' option out of many. Pragmatism offers nothing, except that 'this action' looks most effective, all things considered. 'Bad" is a value judgement; it is not objective, it depends on the prevailing circumstances. An action or behaviour can be bad on one day, acceptable the next. Mind you, Snape doesn't give a toss anyway. He is sublimly indifferent to the opinions of others. There was a commentator who asked one of the activists for peace why they lobbied the US President and not people like the Ayatollahs or Saddam Hussein. Answer - "Because he listens and they don't." Guess which group Snape falls into? He wouldn't listen to anything any of us have to say. The only reaction that I can imagine would be ironic amusement. Sure, lots want to castigate him - what effect will it have, except maybe to wave some 'Oh so correct' opinions in public? None. Zero. Zilch. Foam at the mouth if you will, it'll have no effect. Snape isn't listening, JKR isn't listening. And you know it. So why get so agitated? Del's right, everyone is entitled and allowed to be bad. It's one of those choices that DD is whittering on about. Just so long as you accept responsibility for the consequences. Kneasy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 18 20:36:41 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:36:41 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101931 > Snow wrote: > I'm sorry but I dont understand your reply to my post? The main idea was that the Weasley twins are really the Prewett twins. As far as the names representation, along with my theory, I have one: > Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon Prewett...F&G. Mandy here: But why change their name from Prewett to Weasley? If it was to hide them wouldn't someone in the WW would know that there were two Prewetts boys who would have been about 2 years old at the time of LV fall? I just don't know if something like that could be kept secret from two boys as precocious as Fred and George. It seems to me that someone would have let the cat of the bag by now. Intersting idea though. Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jun 18 21:06:46 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:06:46 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101932 > Kneazelkid again: > No need to apoligize -- I'm afraid I wans't clear because I was too > excited. What I should have said was: > Snow, that is a very interesting idea! It does seem that Molly is > always forgetting that the twins are in the family. As far as your > theory that the one or both of the twins will die, I had a similar > theory once I started thinking about the names of everyone in the > series. > Many of them are named by JKR after mytholigical and astronomical > characters (see above). I was wondering why the twins don't seem to > be named for anyone in mythology (although a recent poster whose > name escapes me has some theories) and then I wondered if they are > perhaps created after the Gemini twins (who are a constelation). > According to mythology, one of the Gemini twins died (in a war, I > believe)and the other was so miserable without his brother that he > didn't want to go on living. I wonder if perhaps JKR was thinking of > the Gemini twins when she created Fred and George and if they will > be destined to a similar fate. > Was that more clear? > Mandy here: I think what is interesting about the Weasley's names is precisely that they are not names after constellations or mythological characters. They are in fact good solid, old fashioned and rather 'common' or lower class names. Bill (William), Charlie (Charles), Percy (Percival), Fred (Fredrick), George, Ron (Ronald) and Ginny (Ginerva) are strong English names. Even the German and French ones are now though of as very English. Most are royal names. To me they are proof that the Weasleys are a solid working class family. Strong supporters of their nationality and culture. And the desire of shortening their names to the affectionate form, or nick name, shows the Weasleys to be down to earth and not willing to be seen to be pretentious in anyway. The most unusual and pretentious names of the bunch are Percy and Ginerva. Percy fits with Percy's desire to see himself as something better than his family. Ginerva is just plain old Ginny to all who love her taking away any pretension that might have become associated with her full name. Mandy, who's British and was just wondering if any American readers would recognize the subtle class issues involved in the names people have in the UK? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jun 18 21:13:20 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:13:20 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously (Was:Question for Snape Bashers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Well, this is in my opinion absolutely inrealistic aspect of > children's reaction to Snape. Although, I guess Harry is supposed to > be a "hero", who should overcome everything life throws at him, but > again just look at Neville, whose biggest fear is professor Snape. > > My problem is, I can't take this even one-onehundredth as seriously as other people do. I just don't buy Harry Potter as a 20th century Young Werther - a boy of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. Where other people are earnestly discussing his life with the Dursleys as a case for Social Services intervention, I see it as a satirical riot. He lives in a closet! Under the stairs! With all the spiders! It's all so over-the-top, it's funny, like "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" - all the grandparents bedridden for 20 years, sleeping in the same bed, and everyone living on cabbage water. It's a satire on sentimental, pathetic-waif stories like "The Old Curiosity Shop", with poor, persecuted Little Nell. It's great that Rowling can combine this with adventure and suspense, but comedy is never very far away, and I think that comedy is really what she does best. This is why I felt Book 5 was such a failure; I suddenly found Rowling was expecting me to take all this stuff seriously, and I just couldn't switch my view of Hogwarts from St. Custard's to Lowood School. Maybe this was always her intention- to start us off with a lighthearted story and gradually turn it into a searing drama, but if it is, I think she's misjudged her abilities. She really doesn't have what it takes to write a very deep, serious book, whereas she can write humour and satire as well as anyone and better than most. Wanda From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Fri Jun 18 21:21:49 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:21:49 -0500 Subject: Taking it seriously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101934 Wanda Said: My problem is, I can't take this even one-onehundredth as seriously as other people do. I just don't buy Harry Potter as a 20th century Young Werther - a boy of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. Where other people are earnestly discussing his life with the Dursleys as a case for Social Services intervention, I see it as a satirical riot. He lives in a closet! Under the stairs! With all the spiders! It's all so over-the-top, it's funny, like "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" - all the grandparents bedridden for 20 years, sleeping in the same bed, and everyone living on cabbage water. It's a satire on sentimental, pathetic-waif stories like "The Old Curiosity Shop", with poor, persecuted Little Nell. It's great that Rowling can combine this with adventure and suspense, but comedy is never very far away, and I think that comedy is really what she does best. This is why I felt Book 5 was such a failure; I suddenly found Rowling was expecting me to take all this stuff seriously, and I just couldn't switch my view of Hogwarts from St. Custard's to Lowood School. Maybe this was always her intention- to start us off with a lighthearted story and gradually turn it into a searing drama, but if it is, I think she's misjudged her abilities. She really doesn't have what it takes to write a very deep, serious book, whereas she can write humour and satire as well as anyone and better than most. Lady Macbeth replied: See, I'm just the opposite. There are far too many cases (at least in the United States, I don't know about Britain) of children being treated just as Harry is for me to take it as satire. There was a little girl in the news recently who died at the hands of her birth mother - she was found dead in the hallway of her apartment. It's just that it's such everyday news anymore that most Americans read/see it on the news, say "Oh, isn't that sad," and then go on to the sports section. I've gone to school with kids who wore the same ill-fitting clothes for a week because their parents didn't give a damn about them. Unwanted children really DO get dumped with abuse, neglect and less-than-adequate needs for survival. That's why Book 5 was so SPECTACULAR to me - it seemed to me that Rowling was finally delving INTO the story of this boy, instead of just skimming over the highlights of his life. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 21:26:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:26:56 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously (Was:Question for Snape Bashers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote: > > > > Well, this is in my opinion absolutely inrealistic aspect of > > children's reaction to Snape. Although, I guess Harry is supposed > to > > be a "hero", who should overcome everything life throws at him, > but > > again just look at Neville, whose biggest fear is professor Snape. > > Wanda: > My problem is, I can't take this even one-onehundredth as seriously > as other people do. I just don't buy Harry Potter as a 20th century > Young Werther - a boy of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. Where > other people are earnestly discussing his life with the Dursleys as > a case for Social Services intervention, I see it as a satirical > riot. He lives in a closet! Under the stairs! With all the > spiders! It's all so over-the-top, it's funny, like "Willy Wonka > and the Chocolate Factory" - all the grandparents bedridden for 20 > years, sleeping in the same bed, and everyone living on cabbage > water. It's a satire on sentimental, pathetic-waif stories > like "The Old Curiosity Shop", with poor, persecuted Little Nell. > It's great that Rowling can combine this with adventure and > suspense, but comedy is never very far away, and I think that comedy > is really what she does best. This is why I felt Book 5 was such a > failure; I suddenly found Rowling was expecting me to take all this > stuff seriously, and I just couldn't switch my view of Hogwarts from > St. Custard's to Lowood School. Maybe this was always her intention- > to start us off with a lighthearted story and gradually turn it > into a searing drama, but if it is, I think she's misjudged her > abilities. She really doesn't have what it takes to write a very > deep, serious book, whereas she can write humour and satire as well > as anyone and better than most. > > Wanda Alla: Wanda, it is not your problem that you cannot take Harry's trials and tribulations seriously. It is your right. Nevertheless, I don't see it a satirical riot only. Yes, the book started as fairy tale. Yes, many, many scenes are hysterically funny and to many scenes we can have both serious and humorous reactions, BUT after OoP I expect Rowling to deal with the abuse aspect more seriously. I don't think that OoP was a failure , on the contrary. Actually, Rowling convinced me to take alot of what she writes seriously after PoA, after graveyeard scene, etc. Why our reaction should be limited to one emotion only? Harry's life at Dursleys could be both funny and sad, right? Anyway, what I am trying to say is that it is absolutely, perfectly reasonable for you to read the book as satire and for me as if it is not. What I object to is when someone tells me not to take it too seriously. (Wanda, I know you have not done it in your post). I remember having similar conversation with a poster (Sorry, don't remember who it was, so I apologise in advance), who told me something to the effect that whatever Snape does to the children is funny. Yes, Snape's remark to Hermione for example was funny and I laughed, but at the same time it was one of my most strongest "want to slap Snape several times" moments in the book. Alla From grahadh at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 21:28:40 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:28:40 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101936 Snow wrote: > > JKR said in her web site under Extra stuff about the Weasley's: > Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note > from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family > members to Voldemort. > I have been unable to find such referencing in the Sorcerer's Stone > version and would very much like to know what is quoted in > Philosopher's Stone version about this statement. > I have a feeling the twins are going to learn that they are Prewetts > in book six and Molly's fear of them attempting to avenge their > fathers death will become reality. > now me: The reference to the Prewetts is actually in Chapter 3 of SS. Hagrid tells Harry that Voldemort killed some of best witches and wizards of the age and then goes on to list: "The McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts" I don't thhink they are referenced other than that, though. After reading that bit of info on the website, and then rereading OoP, I began to wonder if the Weasly children know they were related to G & F Prewett also. They are mentioned by Moody when he shows Harry the origional OoP picture and when the Death Eaters escaped from Azkaban we're told that Dolohov's picture has a caption saying that he was convicted of murdering G & F Prewett. Ron is sitting right there at the table when they discover this news, but seems to react to the news as a whole and not to any bit in particular. This is in contrast to Neville and Susan Bones, who either react to the news or to people's reactions to them. So either the Weasleys don't know they are related to the Prewetts, or are choosing to not to talk about it. I'm not sure what the is reason either way. It could be, like you said, that Molly is keeping that bit of information secret from the entire family, to keep the twins unaware of their heritage. But I still wonder about how Molly could keep her family history secret from the rest of her family. She would have to cut off all ties to her extended family. I guess they never went to visit Granny and Grandad Prewett (maybe they weren't around anyway, we don't know). You'd think that the kids would at least know their mother's maiden name, though. There has to be a good reason for it, I'm very curious to know what it is, and I think you're right, that we will probably find out more about the Prewetts in the next two books. -Dhyana From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 21:31:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:31:08 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: snip. > Lady Macbeth replied: > See, I'm just the opposite. There are far too many cases (at least in the > United States, I don't know about Britain) of children being treated just as > Harry is for me to take it as satire. There was a little girl in the news > recently who died at the hands of her birth mother - she was found dead in > the hallway of her apartment. It's just that it's such everyday news > anymore that most Americans read/see it on the news, say "Oh, isn't that > sad," and then go on to the sports section. > > I've gone to school with kids who wore the same ill-fitting clothes for a > week because their parents didn't give a damn about them. Unwanted children > really DO get dumped with abuse, neglect and less-than-adequate needs for > survival. > > That's why Book 5 was so SPECTACULAR to me - it seemed to me that Rowling > was finally delving INTO the story of this boy, instead of just skimming > over the highlights of his life. > > -Lady Macbeth > > > > > Indeed. The hero coming out of the closet is traditional fairy tale aspect of the story, but with each book, to me it sounds weaker and weaker. Give or take some things, I cannot take Harry's life journey as a satire only. Actually, I cannot take it as a satire at all, humor - Yes, satire - not. Too much pain. Alla From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jun 18 21:47:04 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:47:04 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Wanda Said: > Lady Macbeth replied: > See, I'm just the opposite. There are far too many cases (at least in the > United States, I don't know about Britain) of children being treated just as > Harry is for me to take it as satire. I know, it's very true that very bad things happen in real life. But I don't see that as related to what happens in a fictional story. To take the opposite tack, lots of very GOOD things happen in real life. Every month or so, I read a heartwarming story about sweethearts separated decades in the past, often by war or catastrophe, who manage to find each other and have a happy life. Of people whose families were torn apart, perhaps think each other dead, and manage against all odds to rediscover each other. They're wonderful stories, and they're true. But what would we think if at the end of Book 7, a door flies open and Lily and James come rushing in to embrace Harry, and we find that they weren't really dead at all, it was all a mistake, and now they've found their boy and they'll all live happily together. It would be an appalling end to the series, and nobody would be mollified by being told that things like that DO happen in real life, after all. Art has its own rules, and its own integrity. Real life doesn't have to conform to rules of logic or sense because, well, it's REAL. Wanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 21:53:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:53:02 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < snip. > > I know, it's very true that very bad things happen in real life. > But I don't see that as related to what happens in a fictional > story. Alla: To me a good story reflects at least SOME of what happens in real life truthfully. No, it does not have to reflect EVERY aspect of RL, but even a fantasy has to ring some truth to my ears. I don't know, emotional truth, I guess. Wanda: But what would we think if at > the end of Book 7, a door flies open and Lily and James come rushing > in to embrace Harry, and we find that they weren't really dead at > all, it was all a mistake, and now they've found their boy and > they'll all live happily together. It would be an appalling end to > the series, and nobody would be mollified by being told that things > like that DO happen in real life, after all. Art has its own rules, > and its own integrity. Real life doesn't have to conform to rules > of logic or sense because, well, it's REAL. > Alla: You don't have to worry about that aspect, because JKR indicated many times that Harry's parents are really and truly dead. Although on her website somehow she only answered that Lily is dead? Does it mean that she is backtracking? :o) For the record, I don't think so. :o) Sirius, on the other hand.... :o) Alla > Wanda From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 21:59:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:59:38 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina: > The best guess I've heard is that the bike is in the Forbidden > Forest. Cannon support is minimal, but that is where the Ford Anglia > ended up (and we haven't seen it out of there since, and only in > there in CoS), and Hagrid had the bike last and he spends some of his > time in the Forest, and is about the only one who does. > > > > * I still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car and THAT is > the real reason he was under investigation at the ministry - so yes it would > be in the forest. Geof: If that were the case, why did he choose a late 1950s/early 1960s model car? He could easily create a much newer and better model and replace it at three year intervals - even run a firm called WeasleyLease.. :-) From bard7696 at aol.com Fri Jun 18 22:31:22 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:31:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101941 > > And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to > > choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so > > what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses > > ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and > > prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than > > light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he > > breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ? > > Kneasy: > He's entitled - so long as he accepts responsibility for the consequences. And this applies to *any* behaviour by *anybody*. A condition that some only apply to those they're not fond of. They >change the rules for those they like. I'm familiar with the concept of changing the rules, having read numerous "Draco is just being picked on, but Harry is REALLY mean -- look how he treats the Creeveys!" posts on this list. > My tenets: > You are responsible for your actions. > You must accept responsibility for any consequences arising from those actions. So... any fallout from any abuse, be it Harry's, Neville's or Snape's, is ultimately the fault of THAT person, rather than the subterranean layers of hate built up through abuse. Good. Excellent. I like that. And my first application of the rules is: Get. Over. It. Snape. Now. That felt good! > OK, that's the basic rules (or some of them) that I live by. How do they impinge on Snape? > What effect have his actions had? Any that are significant? Any effect at all? > He passes snide comments. So what? What are their effects? Minimal. Ah, the advocate for the bully downplays the effects of the bullying on the victim. > He throws Harry out of the Occlumency teaching. With what effect? > Not much, Harry wasn't going to learn anyway. Harry had already decided not to co-operate. Any action by Snape was icing on the cake - it just gave Harry *his* excuses - "It's all Snape's fault!" Wrong. Does not compute. Actually, Harry HAD shown flashes, glimpses of promise, and Snape did not exploit them. Never once do we see TEACHING from Snape. We see "close your mind," "master your emotions," "defend yourself" or essentially, "How come you're not getting it?" And again, in the debriefing in D-Dore's office, he does not bring up Harry's part in the mess, which I grant is there, but blames himself for thinking Snape, who is responsible for his own actions and must accept the consequences, could grow up enough to deal with it. Snape chose to give up. Whether he believed he was justified or not is irrelevant. He made that choice and for his role, must accept the consequences. Just as Harry must accept his part, and I believe he ultimately will, once the grief of Sirius' death fades a bit, for not applying himself as diligently as he should have. > 'Bad" is a value judgement; it is not objective, it depends on the prevailing circumstances. An action or behaviour can be bad on one >day, acceptable the next. No, sometimes bad is bad all the time. Some actions or behavior's can be bad one day, acceptable the next. What Snape does in his classrooms is not acceptable most of the time. > Mind you, Snape doesn't give a toss anyway. > He is sublimly indifferent to the opinions of others. Puh-LEAZE! "You will respect me!" "You should be thanking me on bended knee!" "You didn't listen to my opinion, Headmaster!" > There was a commentator who asked one of the activists for peace why > they lobbied the US President and not people like the Ayatollahs or Saddam Hussein. Answer - "Because he listens and they don't." Guess which group Snape falls into? He wouldn't listen to anything any of us have to say. The only reaction that I can imagine would be ironic >amusement. And this is admirable, how? This is where I sometimes think Snape defenders are defending just to defend. I really wonder how folks deal with the Snapes in their lives. My guess is not with the same open-minded stance, once it's applied to the real world. > > Sure, lots want to castigate him - what effect will it have, except maybe to wave some 'Oh so correct' opinions in public? None. Zero. Zilch. Foam at the mouth if you will, it'll have no effect. Snape isn't listening, JKR isn't listening. And you know it. So why >get so agitated? I think you might be overestimating the tone of the Snape bashers. "Agitated." I get agitated when my cat is limping, or when I don't get phone calls returned at work. This is recreation. Consider me ironically amused at the Snape defending. > Del's right, everyone is entitled and allowed to be bad. It's one of those choices that DD is whittering on about. Just so long as you accept responsibility for the consequences. I fail to see how Snape has. In his own way, he whines about his lot as much as any other character. He is disliked, disrespected and suspected of everything. But just because Quirrell had V-Mort on the back of his head doesn't mean he isn't smart sometimes. Snape flaps around like an overgrown bat, defends loathsome brats like Draco and generally goes out of his way to belittle students. Is it his "right" to behave like an arrogant berk? Sure. Just so long as he doesn't go whining about being thanked on bended knee any longer. Darrin From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 22:59:33 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <1087552468.10095.37639.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040618225933.43708.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101942 > I like the idea of a teenage Harry being at GH that night. Here are > my reasons: (that I can recall at the moment ;)) > > 1) In PoA (the movie), when Harry comes into contact with the > Dementors, he hears his mother's screams. Something that I didn't > notice the first time around, is that Lily is screaming "Harry!" > > 2) The theme of the movie was obviously time. > > 3) The Lupin/Harry scene on the bridge. Lupin tells Harry "Your more > like them than you know, in TIME you will come to see just how much." > We also know that in the book, Lupin had the strange look when he > asks Harry, "You heard James?" > > 4) Sirius tells Harry right before he escapes with Buckbeak, "The > ones we love never truly leave us." > We know that JKR tells us that there were things in PoA the movie, > that forshadowed what will happen in books 6 and 7. I think these > could be some of those things. What do you think? I completely agree that POA (movie) is making the time theme even more clear than it was in the book. I noted most of the things you have in that regard. I'm sure time is going to be one of the keys, because of the room in the Ministry of Magic in OOTP which is devoted to some form of time experiment. It is irrelevant to the Book 5 story but quite a lot is made of it. (Maybe a more sophisticated device than the time turner awaits us in later books.) I've also just noticed that the first time we meet Dumbledore, in Privet Drive, he consults "a very odd watch". Between your view that Lupin thinks James wasn't really there, and Vmonte's view that it was Harry's body, not James's, in the rubble (both of which are fascinating ideas) the question arises - where WAS James? (Surely a stray stag would have been noticed in Godric's Hollow?) If Lupin knew the answer, it would suggest it was a full moon and James was off minding him, but wasn't it very dark the night Harry was deposited on the Dursleys' doorstep? Also, for it to be Harry's body, we have to deal with the fact that James came out of Voldemort's wand in GOF beside Lily, so presumably that means he did die at a point in time reasonably close to her. To get round that one, you would have to postulate that it WAS an older Harry who died, however the Harry we have always known actually IS James (time-turned). But that won't work because (a) Harry has Lily's eyes, and (b) those who knew James think Harry is similar but not the same. Where it gets murky (you thought it already HAD?) is that both of them bear an almost equally striking resemblance to Tom Riddle. So if all three of those characters were, by some quirk of time, 18 the day Harry Lived, they would ALL look similar. Anybody want to run with THAT ball? On an unrelated note (except that it's still about time) the interpolation that really fascinated me in the POA movie was that the Harry in the first run-through feels physical pain when the stone is thrown at him by Harry in the later run-through. That feels very significant to me. One possibility is that the pain Harry always feels in the scar when Voldemort does things is across time, not across space as we have hitherto supposed. But there could be lots of other ways this info is relevant. Mo now: Sorry it has been so long since I have posted. My poor computer got a really bad virus (be carefull to others out there and make sure you use a firewall!!) Anyway, I have periodically been able to check posts from friends computers, etc. But now my computer is back up and running. Okay, onto the topic..... I just reread the passage and the strange "look on Lupin's face" was actually "'You heard James?' Lupin said in a strange VOICE." This makes MUCH more sense to me. A strange voice could be anything. I interpreted it as Lupin choking up. You know how your voice goes strange when you are trying not to cry and speak at the same time.... I think Lupin was really empathising with Harry at that moment. Lupin is the only character Harry has made himself vulnerable to - even moreso than his friends. He cries in front of him, even though trying to hide it. And, he also divulges very personal information to Lupin about what he hears and feels. I think Harry does this, subconciously, because Lupin is an adult and Harry somehow feels safe and comfort talking to him. (He even is excited to hear his voice again in OotP) Even though Harry's friends are his confidants too, they are also teenagers and don't have the maturity or life experience to give him that adult advice he needs. I do like your theory about HP being at GH that night. But, I don't think it is the case. A. I don't think you can go back in time 17 years. B. It is shown in PoA that the events don't change with time travel - they coexist at the same time so the outcome is always the same - sort of like it was always meant to happen C. The man's voice says "Lily." I doubt that Harry, if it was him, would call his mother "Lily" and not "Mother." Now, I have a little theory of my own on the matter. Harry's dad (or the debateable man in question) died trying to save BOTH Harry and Lily. So, wouldn't that make another charm? I am wondering if there isn't some more ancient magic in the air that will pop up in later books... sort of like a double life saving charm.... I also still believe that Harry has some of his parents', or definitely his mother's, soul in him. - Hence, the whole same eyes thing. I think that this is also part of the lasting charm. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 23:07:33 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The grim in the teacup - Sirius's fate In-Reply-To: <1087567153.9188.30923.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040618230733.56577.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101943 I heard from someone that one of the scenes that JKR wanted left in the movie was the one where Prof. Trelawney sees the grim in the tealeaves. I thought this over and it started to make sense. Maybe the grim wasn't predicting Harry's fate, afterall, but actually Sirius's. Sirius turns into a Shaggy Black Dog - a.k.a. the Grim. Sirius's animagi form sort of foreshadowes his own death.... What do you all think? ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 23:19:39 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: <1087567153.9188.30923.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040618231939.57796.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101944 From: "davewitley" Subject: Adults know best? I don't think anyone has commented on the subject of yesterday's Leaky Cauldron article: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/004817.html It relates to an Entertainment News item here: http://tinyurl.com/2lwuz A PhD student at James Cook University at Cairns in Australia, Ms Giardina, claims that childrens literature has a 'pro-adult' agenda (my words): "On the surface the text seems to say, 'Look kids! This is your culture. We're on your side, especially against adult authority figures'," Ms Giardina said. "But a closer analysis demonstrates that the writer is merely using this strategy to sell adult ideas such as: 'adults know best', and, 'parents are a source of security when things get tough'," she said. I'd be interested to know what you all think, insofar as this applies to the Harry Potter series. David Mo: I think the HP series does a great job at respecting authority. 1. HP gets detentions just like everyone else for breaking rules. 2. DD reminds HP to call Snape "Professor" Snape. 3. Even when HP disagrees with a teacher, he rarely would dare to talk back, (Umbridge being the exception) and when any student does, they immediately get points docked or a detention. And, even in the Ubridge case, McGonnagal warns HP to keep his temper for his own sake. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 18 23:32:57 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:32:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D37BA9.5040702@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101945 What I find amusing is that people discuss Snape's teaching methods as if he was a unique monster from hell. "Ritual humiliation" was a recognised teaching technique in british schools until quite recently. At least there is no cane in Hogwarts, so let's keep things in proportion. Irene From rzl46 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 23:38:14 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:38:14 -0000 Subject: Class issues in names was Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101946 > Mandy, who's British and was just wondering if any American readers > would recognize the subtle class issues involved in the names people > have in the UK? An American here. I realize that there are class differences in names across the pond. I remember reading SS the first time and thinking that surly Aunt Petunia was mad when she called "Harry" a low class common name. My own gut feeling is that Harry is in general a higher class name than Dudley, is my gut wrong? Perhaps some of our British members would care to start a discussion along these lines to enlighten the rest of us? MaggieB From marcuscason at charter.net Fri Jun 18 23:56:20 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:56:20 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D37BA9.5040702@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > What I find amusing is that people discuss Snape's teaching methods as > if he was a unique monster from hell. > "Ritual humiliation" was a recognised teaching technique in british > schools until quite recently. At least there is no cane in Hogwarts, so > let's keep things in proportion. > > Irene Kyntor replies: There are really two things about this point of view that bothers me. First, I don't really believe that Snape is practicing "ritual humiliation" purely for the benefit of his students. He seems to enjoy humiliating certain people just entirely too much. If Snape really was trying to educate his students through the use of "ritual himiliation," wouldn't he be treating the Slytherins the same way. By not humiliating them, will they still be able to learn? If the Slytherins can learn without the humilation, then it is not really needed is it. Secondly, if "ritual humiliation" is such a recognized teaching technique in wizarding society at that particular time, then why is this teaching method not used by the other professors. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 00:01:23 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome to HPfGU In-Reply-To: <002301c45540$7ab44940$6501a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: <20040619000123.84176.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101948 I'm just glad you do not have a wand!!!! moonmyyst Iggy McSnurd wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "iggymcsnurd" >To: >Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:50 PM >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome to HPfGU > >A slightly distracted and disoriented Elf walks up to you, wearing a >pair of thick, purple wool socks, and a vivid, kelley green vest >with electric blue paisley. Worn under this vest, you can see a >poncho made of a tea towel and bearing the Hogwart's crest. Looking >up at you, he gives you a smile that seems just a little to >mischievous for your average Elf, and waves, introducing himself. > >> remainder snipped << *sigh* Ever have one of those days when nothing seems to work right? This wasn't intended to be sent to the list itself, rather it was supposed to be sent to the new list members I am assigned to as a Welcome Elf. (It appears that YahooMort has decided to intercept my owls and find a way to misdirect them.) Again, humble apologies from this Elf. I shall now go punish myself. *toddles off to the kitchen to find an oven for his years, repeatedly whacking himself with his ever-present rubber turnip as he goes.* Iggy McSnurd ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 19 00:14:20 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:14:20 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D411FC.17800.818627@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101949 On 18 Jun 2004 at 15:21, darrin_burnett wrote: > You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we won't > go!" > > All I keep hearing about is the culture of abuse that is somehow acceptable in > these schools, even though NO OTHER teacher behaves like Snape. > Wouldn't that culture also mean kids aren't going to be as independent? OK - I'm worried that I've left this impression (seeing as I'm the one who always goes on about the cultures of the school) so I'd better make some clarifications here. Understand here, that I am giving only one view of the cultural background inherent in schools with similar educational traditions to those that JKR seems to have drawn on in creating Hogwarts. The views I express are not at all uncommon, but they are also certainly not universal. Large books have been written examining these schools and the cultural characteristics - I have a bunch of these actually next to me at the moment as my exams finished yesterday so I have six or so weeks free of study, and am considering the idea of writing some seriously detailed analysis of Hogwarts and it's influences from British Public School tradition. Now, having made it clear that I'm offering one perspective, let me continue. These schools actually tend to produce very independent young people - far more independent than is normal. This is partly because of the intentions of the such schools - they consider it their business to create the future leaders of society, and that means creating people who are capable of acting without leadership, and thinking independently. They *want* to create Fred and George, at least as much as they want to create Percy - because leadership in a society requires those who will act independently and create new fields of endeavour, as well as those who will work within the established order to keep things running smoothly. Now, I can understand where the idea that they might produce less independent people might come from, if a person is working from the perspective that a 'culture of abuse' is acceptable in these schools. But the point is, such a culture is *not* acceptable in these schools. The reason it may seem that way to outsiders is because outsiders have a *different* idea of what abuse is, than insiders do. Please understand I am not saying the outside perspective is necessarily the wrong one, or that the inside perspective is necessarily the right one. Perfectly reasonable arguments can be made that those looking in from the outside are making a better judgement than those inside the system. But that isn't the point - there is a cultural divide at work here - and if you want to understand the schools, you need to try to understand the culture as it is within the schools. The beliefs as they are within the schools. You don't have to agree with them - but if you don't acknowledge them for the sake of understanding the schools, you never will understand the schools. Again, let me clear. I'm not saying these schools are monolithic cultural entities - not everyone in such a school necessarily agrees with the common beliefs of the school - they are just *generally* true for *most* people in the school - not universally true for all. And they *do* change over time, and they *are* influenced by the views of the outside world. Many 'traditional' schools have changed over time to have beliefs quite different from these old established ones - but, by no means, all. And Hogwarts, as presented to us in the books, is, like the rest of the Wizarding World, quite anachronistic in many ways. Quite old fashioned. (I apologise for the length of these clarifications - I might be overdoing it.) Back to the point - Darrin, you talk about a 'culture of abuse.' I can understand where that idea comes from, but it is an outsider view. The point is that *within a particular school*, these practices are often *not* seen as abusive. It doesn't matter much if they would be in the outside world - that's not relevant to considering the attitudes within the school. Snide comments from a teacher, cruel comments from a teacher *are not* considered to be abuse - but rather may be seen as a normal part of school life. Looking at Hogwarts - many of the students probably think Snape goes further than he should, or he needs to - and they resent that. But he doesn't go far enough that they are likely to consider it to be *abusive*. Consider the school we are seeing from the perspective of its students, and the world they live in. *Forget* the outside world which colours your views - and consider the world that colours their views. They are in a school where, we have some indications that punishments like hanging students from the walls in chains, and flogging them with horsewhips are relevant cultural memories (even though it hasn't happened to the students there now, they still know about it in history - possibly fairly recent history - it's hard to be sure). They are in a school where detention can be a potentially life threatening experience. And the live in a world where there was a reign of terror when they were *infants* or just before they were born - this is a society where the threat of *murder* was a very real one in recent history. Understand that their cultural experiences are different from most of ours, and that does influence their cultural beliefs. As far as these children are concerned, there isn't a 'culture of abuse' operating within Hogwarts. Children at any modern school might well have a different attitude - but we're not dealing with children at any modern school. *If* all the teachers were like Snape, things might actually be a bit different - but it's the fact that he is one among many that means he doesn't have a huge impact on the culture of the entire school. They have lots of teachers who are 'odd' in some way. So the fact that these children do not rebel against what is happening isn't a sign that they are not independent - it's simply a sign that what they are experiencing isn't, in their view, serious enough to warrant rebellion. Historically speaking, in the UK, some students in some schools routinely endured what today virtually everybody would agree is abusive. I could give examples, but I don't think that's really necessary. They accepted that because in their culture it wasn't abusive - but that didn't make them meek and mild when they felt that somebody *had* overstepped the mark. *If* they felt that an injustice *had* occurred, that's when you get to see how independent they really were. The line wasn't in the same place we'd put it today - but when the line was crossed according to their cultural beliefs - they took action. There were rebellions at some of Britain's most exclusive independent schools in the 18th and 19th century - and I use the term rebellion deliberately. On a couple of occasions, the Army had to be called in to suppress the students. Lord Byron, the famous poet, lead a rebellion when he was at Harrow, in which the students spread explosives around the school. The last major rebellion (at Marlborough in 1851) lasted a week - with fireworks being set off constantly around the school (sound familiar?). After a week the Headmaster was forced to capitulate and surrendered to his students, giving into all of the students demands. (Note, I have a fairly detailed account of the entire rebellion from a book - it's not that long, but too long to paste in here to any purpose - but if anyone would like to see it, just ask and I will mail it to you - reading Order of the Phoenix, I do wonder if JKR knew this story!). When they felt things had gone too far - the students showed how independent they were. The students at Hogwarts don't rebel against Snape - because what Snape does isn't really worthy of it. *But* they do rebel against Umbridge - because she crosses the line. She *does* violate the cultural beliefs of the school. And that is what creates a reaction. It takes some time - because the older students who are the natural leaders of any rebellion, being those most familiar with the school and its traditions, tend to give the school time to 'self-correct' it's problems. You don't revolt until and unless things don't change. But when it becomes clear that Umbridge has gone too far - and things aren't going to step back - the rebellion begins. And it's not just the students who rise up to defend their school and the way they want it to be - so do the ghosts, so do the teachers. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 19 00:18:04 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:18:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101950 | From: M.Clifford | Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 21:24 PM | Hi Valky Here! long time absentee list member.. | | I assume this reason for this post has to do with the JKR interview | in which she, and I am not quoting just paraphrasing, said that the | audience would be treated to interesting tidbits of clue in POA the | movie even one which we would recognise as portends to books 6 7 and | 8. Yay!!! [Lee]: Book 8? I remember a couple years ago reading some sort of rumor about that, but JKR disputes it. Hmm--... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 00:26:22 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040619002622.12362.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101951 Mandy wrote: Mandy here: Unless he calls her 'mum'? Or gives her some hint as to who he is. It would be astounding to her, but if she see him standing before her looking just like her husband and sees her own eyes looking back, she would know who it was. Could she accept it? I think so, particularly if it comes just when she is about to give up hope of her baby son surviving the attack. If she sees a grown up Harry standing before her, she'll know he'll survive. Yeah it's a stretch, but..... Mandy I just don' know Well, wouldn't this go along with the comment in PoA, when HP states that he knew he could produce his Patronus because he already had?? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 19 00:28:42 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:28:42 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D37BA9.5040702@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <40D4155A.13977.8EACC0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101952 On 18 Jun 2004 at 23:56, kyntor70 wrote: > Kyntor replies: > > There are really two things about this point of view that bothers me. > > First, I don't really believe that Snape is practicing "ritual > humiliation" purely for the benefit of his students. He seems to > enjoy humiliating certain people just entirely too much. Yes, and no... I certainly think that Snape gets pleasure out of humiliating people - but that doesn't mean he isn't using it as a teaching technique at the same time. It's a happy coincidence for Snape if he can do both at once. > If Snape really was trying to educate his students through the use > of "ritual himiliation," wouldn't he be treating the Slytherins the > same way. By not humiliating them, will they still be able to > learn? If the Slytherins can learn without the humilation, then it > is not really needed is it. This isn't really valid. First of all, we're dealing a school where students are divided into houses based on personality traits. Personality is a major determinant of whether or not a particular teaching strategy will work with particular students. We see Snape teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins - the fact that his strategy differs between the two *could* be a reflection of the fact that he acknowledges the different prevailing characteristics warrant different teaching methods. Gryffindors - courageous, and brave - are probably the least likely to suffer ill effects from biting sarcasm and verbal attacks than those less brave would be. Slytherins - ambitious - may well learn best in an environment where their egos are stroked. I'm not saying I believe this - I don't. I think Snape treats the Slytherin's differently because he is biased in their favour. But it's not impossible. No teacher should be using only *one* strategy to teach. > Secondly, if "ritual humiliation" is such a recognized teaching > technique in wizarding society at that particular time, then why is > this teaching method not used by the other professors. Because it's *one* recognised teaching strategy - not the only recognised teaching strategy. Teachers choose the one that works best in their opinion. Like I've said numerous times, I went to a school where we did have some very Snape-like teachers, and when their methods were considered acceptable (unpalatable but acceptable). But the majority of my teachers didn't teach in that way. It was perhaps 3 out of the 20 or so teachers I had over the years at that school, with another 2 or 3 having occasional Snape- like tendencies (ah! I have just realised *why* I liked the movie portrayal of Lupin so much! Extremely close to one of my maths teachers! I'll have to tell him). They existed - but they were a minority. Hopefully there are very few schools around where all teachers teach in the same way - that would be absolutely disastrous for anyone who the particular method didn't work for. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 19 00:31:44 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:31:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D38970.6060303@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101953 kyntor70 wrote: > Kyntor replies: > > There are really two things about this point of view that bothers me. > > First, I don't really believe that Snape is practicing "ritual > humiliation" purely for the benefit of his students. I've never said he does not enjoy himself in the process. > He seems to > enjoy humiliating certain people just entirely too much. > > If Snape really was trying to educate his students through the use > of "ritual himiliation," wouldn't he be treating the Slytherins the > same way. By not humiliating them, will they still be able to > learn? If the Slytherins can learn without the humilation, then it > is not really needed is it. > > Secondly, if "ritual humiliation" is such a recognized teaching > technique in wizarding society at that particular time, then why is > this teaching method not used by the other professors. Two words: Moody, ferret. :-) And very effective it was too. Seriously, McGonagall can give Snape run for his money in sarcasm department. Now, please listen before you go for my throat - she is obviously not as cruel, I could never imagine her doing anything like "I see no difference" scene, but she is very caustic. The difference in the readers' perception is very much because of the difference in Harry's perception: when McGonagall tells him "if you die tomorrow, you don't have submit the essay", it's OK. If it was Snape saying the same thing, Harry would think it was a death threat. Anyway, why is she so amused at Harry's reaction to "potions" during the career talk? Irene From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 02:14:54 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: <20040619002622.12362.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040619021454.95533.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101954 Okay....okay.....okay..... Let's try this one on for size.... TR is HP's twin brother sent back in time to keep him safe!! There were actually 2 sons born - thus you have a connection. Canon says that there is a remarkable likeness between them. TR was raised as an orphan. Suppose the person that was to take care of him died for another reason and TR believed the cover story to be true. This shows how different choices from the "same person" (I know - twins are not the same person but it is as close as you can get) can take you in completely different directions. moonmyyst (who loves adding the wrong ingredient in potions class just to see what happens!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 02:47:14 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040619024714.13842.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101955 Mandy wrote: Mandy, who's British and was just wondering if any American readers would recognize the subtle class issues involved in the names people have in the UK? Mandy (my daughter is Amanda and we call her Manda), I am from the US (as you have been able to tell from my past posts). In fact I am from the rural northern Georgia hills. Do I see class differences and names? No. Not with me, anyway. When I see names such as Fred, George, Charlie, Bill, and Arthur I think "old fashioned" as in a couple of generations back in our geneology. (my mom has traced ours back to 1600's Ireland) Names here are pretty much not class but heritage based. You can tell from mine and my kids names (Karan, Amanda, Nicholas and Devon) that we are origionally from Western Europe. Names like "Harry" and "James" may be used as middle names to honor someones grandfather but you rarely see them used as "call names" (to use a dog show term). I guess this is my long winded way to say that I, at least, see the names in a bit of a different way. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 02:56:44 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 02:56:44 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101956 Snow previously: > I'm sorry but I dont understand your reply to my post? The main idea was that the Weasley twins are really the Prewett twins. As far as the names representation, along with my theory, I have one: > Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon Prewett...F&G. Mandy replied: But why change their name from Prewett to Weasley? If it was to hide them wouldn't someone in the WW would know that there were two Prewetts boys who would have been about 2 years old at the time of LV fall? I just don't know if something like that could be kept secret from two boys as precocious as Fred and George. It seems to me that someone would have let the cat of the bag by now. Intersting idea though. Mandy Snow again: As far as changing the name I don't think it was meant to hide the boys as much as protect them from the knowledge that their father was killed by Voldemort. If the boys grew up knowing that this was what happened to their father they may have set out early-on to avenge their father's death. Also, this name change would mean that Molly would be spared of having to keep the memory of what happened to her (probably brother) alive. As far as who knew about the twin's real father, I would think that anyone who knew the Weasley's back then would honor their secrecy over the tragic matter. Also, something that Arthur said to the kids at the Quidditch World Cup just after they saw the dark mark, led me to believe that he possibly experienced his(Prewett)death first hand. GOF Pg. 142 "Ron, You-Know-Who and his followers sent the Dark Mark into the air whenever they killed," said Mr. Weasley. "The terror it inspired you have no idea, you're too young. Just picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you're about to find inside " Mr. Weasley winced. "Everyone's worst fear the very worst " This could mean that the Prewett brother was possibly living with them at the time, or at least the twins were being taken care of by Molly, while their father was at work for the Order. With all of the other children they had, not many would question whom the twins actually belonged to. Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the first time around and they live in a more country setting without neighbors so I wouldn't think too many people would have questioned it. The older boys Charlie and Bill would have been about 7 and 9 at the time of Voldy's downfall but if the twins always pretty much lived with them, and even if they were aware of the truth, they grew up with the twins as their brothers and wouldn't have thought to say anything, especially if Molly had forbidden them. Although we don't know when exactly the twins real father may have died, I take it from what Mr. Weaseley said at the World Cup that it may have been at the height of Voldemort's terror. This could mean that the twins may have just been born. From marcuscason at charter.net Sat Jun 19 02:58:26 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 02:58:26 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D4155A.13977.8EACC0@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101957 Dreadnought wrote: "We see Snape teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins - the fact that his strategy differs between the two *could* be a reflection of the fact that he acknowledges the different prevailing characteristics warrant different teaching methods. Gryffindors - courageous, and brave - are probably the least likely to suffer ill effects from biting sarcasm and verbal attacks than those less brave would be. Slytherins - ambitious - may well learn best in an environment where their egos are stroked." Kyntor replies: Do you really think verbal abuse would work well on Gryffindors? I would think that it would have the opposite effect on them. It sure has killed their enthusiasm for subject. I don't ever remember a Gryffindor actually looking forward to Potions. Just because people are in the same house don't mean they all think the same way (look at Harry and Hermione). If Snape is trying find teaching strategies to best fit his students why would the dividing line fall neatly along house lines. I find it extremely difficult to believe that Snape's verbal abuse is a teaching method that Snape has tailored specifically for the Gryffindors. If that were true, when he saw that it wasn't effective (such as with Harry and Neville), he should change his teaching methods towards them. He does not. I can see where a stern but fair teaching method would benefit some students. I can understand that some students only thrive in atmospheres were they are challenged. But I find it very difficult to beleive that a normal, adjusted teen could ever benefit from the abuse and humiliation that Snape dishes out to his Gryffindor students. There was no excuse for Snape destroying Harry's vial in OotP. That's not a teaching method that is deliberate sabotage of a student's work. Dreadnought wrote: "I'm not saying I believe this - I don't. I think Snape treats the Slytherin's differently because he is biased in their favour. But it's not impossible" Kyntor replies: Great! We agree! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 03:20:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:20:14 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" < snip> > > Kneasy wrote earlier: > > > He's entitled - so long as he accepts responsibility for the > consequences. And this applies to *any* behaviour by *anybody*. A > condition that some only apply to those they're not fond of. They > >change the rules for those they like. > > I'm familiar with the concept of changing the rules, having read > numerous "Draco is just being picked on, but Harry is REALLY mean -- > look how he treats the Creeveys!" posts on this list. > > > My tenets: > > You are responsible for your actions. > > You must accept responsibility for any consequences arising from > those actions. > Darrin: So... any fallout from any abuse, be it Harry's, Neville's or > Snape's, is ultimately the fault of THAT person, rather than the > subterranean layers of hate built up through abuse. > > Good. Excellent. I like that. > > And my first application of the rules is: > > Get. > > Over. > > It. > > Snape. > > Now. > > That felt good! Alla: LOL, Darrin! You know, while I would often to choose to employ completely different debating tactics than those you use, I find your arguments about the characters (especially Snape :o)) to be very, very similar to mine. That felt good indeed. snip. Kneasy: > > > He throws Harry out of the Occlumency teaching. With what effect? > > Not much, Harry wasn't going to learn anyway. Harry had already > decided not to co-operate. Any action by Snape was icing on the cake - > it just gave Harry *his* excuses - "It's all Snape's fault!" Wrong. > Does not compute. > > snip. Darrin: > Snape chose to give up. Whether he believed he was justified or not > is irrelevant. He made that choice and for his role, must accept the > consequences. > > Just as Harry must accept his part, and I believe he ultimately will, > once the grief of Sirius' death fades a bit, for not applying himself > as diligently as he should have. Alla: I will say more. Not only Snape chose to give up, I believe he wanted to give up. I believe that he hated that task from the beginning and used pensieve incident as convenient excuse to get out of that task. Personally, I have no doubt that Harry will accept hi spart in that mess and in the beginning of book 6 will be blaming himself and himself only for Sirius' death. Kneasy earlier: > > > Mind you, Snape doesn't give a toss anyway. > > He is sublimly indifferent to the opinions of others. > Darrin: > Puh-LEAZE! > > "You will respect me!" > > "You should be thanking me on bended knee!" > > "You didn't listen to my opinion, Headmaster!" > Alla: LOL, Kneasy! Do you seriously believe that Snape is indifferent to the opinions of others? I believe that he craves respect of others, especially Dumbledore. I also believe that he secretly craves Harry's respect. I want to add couple more quotes to that Darrin gave. 'Detention, Weasley," Snape said silkily, his face very close to Ron's. "And if I ever hear you criticise the way I teach a class again, you will be very sorry indeed" PoA, p.129, UK edition. "I told you," said Snape , rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, "to call me sir". OoP, p.533 . He wants respect, all right. :o) snip. Darrin: > Is it his "right" to behave like an arrogant berk? Sure. > > Just so long as he doesn't go whining about being thanked on bended > knee any longer. > Alla: LOLOL! From marcuscason at charter.net Sat Jun 19 03:28:46 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:28:46 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101959 Kneasy wrote: "He passes snide comments. So what? What are their effects? Minimal. He throws Harry out of the Occlumency teaching. With what effect? Not much, Harry wasn't going to learn anyway. Harry had already decided not to co-operate. Any action by Snape was icing on the cake - it just gave Harry *his* excuses - "It's all Snape's fault!" Wrong. Does not compute." Kyntor replies: That's not really true. Snape's behaviour has more than minimal effects. The question you should be asking is WHY Harry wasn't too interested in co-operating with Snape. I think it is pretty easy to see that Harry doesn't like nor does he completely trust Snape. I believe that those two attitudes are a direct result of the way Snape has behaved towards Harry. Since Snape treats Harry roughly the same way as the Dursleys, Harry regards him the same way as he does the Dursleys. If it had been any other professor but Snape giving the occlumency lessons, Harry would have responded differently. I think these occlumency lessons were doomed from the start. Dumbledore should have known better than to trust the important occlumency lessons to Harry and Snapes abiltity to get along with each other. Kyntor P.S. - Oops, I forgot to take a shot at Snape. Snape started it! There...I feel much better now. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 03:30:31 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:30:31 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: snip. > Susan: > I assumed Snape taught Draco and other Slytherines that particular > spell because the snake represents Slytherine House, but LM could > also have taught it to DM since LM was a Slyth and his son now is. I > also thought it was supposed to be just a coincidence that DM > conjures a snake, and lo and behold, Harry can talk to it. Alla: Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slyhterin knows this spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right before the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth and wanted to test his suspicion. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Jun 19 03:30:49 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:30:49 -0400 Subject: Severus giving up/Harry seeing the other side of his father Message-ID: <35ED8E48.5B9821C9.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101961 Alla: I will say more. Not only Snape chose to give up, I believe he wanted to give up. I believe that he hated that task from the beginning and used pensieve incident as convenient excuse to get out of that task. Oryomai: *calms down* Ok, here I go *g*. I think the fact that Severus hated the task from the beginning is canon. It's like "Harry's eyes are green" or "Hermione is in Gryffindor". And the Pensieve incident was the reason the lessons ended. That's true. *But* I don't think of a microsecond that Severus set it up so that he would get out of lessons. Severus isn't that good of an actor. He couldn't have faked that anger. That was Shrieking Shack anger, that was. And why would anyone let the son of the man who tortured you in school see what you went through? What's that you say? It changed Harry's opinion of his father? I think it's good that Harry saw the other side of his father. It's never beneficial to believe that someone is a total saint. Oryomai --Who notices that no one touched her "What's wrong with being bad" post. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 03:34:33 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:34:33 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101962 > > Alla: > > Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slyhterin knows this > spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right before > the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth > and wanted to test his suspicion. Or... Snape just wanted to get his rocks off by making Harry squirm in front of a snake and taught Draco the spell on the spot. Either way, I agree that Snape taught him the spell on the spot. Whether or not Snape wanted to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth? I don't even give Snape blame for being that diabolical. Darrin -- I'm sure some will say that Snape did it for Harry's good! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 03:35:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:35:47 -0000 Subject: Severus giving up/Harry seeing the other side of his father In-Reply-To: <35ED8E48.5B9821C9.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Alla previously: > > I will say more. Not only Snape chose to give up, I believe he wanted to give up. I believe that he hated that task from the beginning and used pensieve incident as convenient excuse to get out of that task. > > Oryomai: > *calms down* Ok, here I go *g*. I think the fact that Severus hated the task from the beginning is canon. It's like "Harry's eyes are green" or "Hermione is in Gryffindor". And the Pensieve incident was the reason the lessons ended. That's true. > > *But* I don't think of a microsecond that Severus set it up so that he would get out of lessons. Severus isn't that good of an actor. He couldn't have faked that anger. That was Shrieking Shack anger, that was. And why would anyone let the son of the man who tortured you in school see what you went through? What's that you say? It changed Harry's opinion of his father? I think it's good that Harry saw the other side of his father. It's never beneficial to believe that someone is a total saint. > > Oryomai > --Who notices that no one touched her "What's wrong with being bad" post. Alla: I actually did not say that Snape set up the Pensieve accident, although I don't believe that canon excludes such possibility. It is entirely possible that Snape left pensieve there on purpose. But I was only saying that Snape used the fact that accident occurred as convenient excuse to stop the lessons. Alla, who read Oryomai's "What's wrong with being bad" post, but could not debate it because the only response she had was : No, No, No. I disagree. Such responses usually do not make very interesting discussion. :o) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sat Jun 19 03:53:41 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:53:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The grim in the teacup - Sirius's fate Message-ID: <5b.517f6e2a.2e0512c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101964 In a message dated 6/18/2004 7:09:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, fauntine_80 at yahoo.com writes: > Maybe the grim wasn't predicting Harry's fate, afterall, but actually > Sirius's. Sirius turns into a Shaggy Black Dog - a.k.a. the Grim. Sirius's > animagi form sort of foreshadowes his own death.... I saw that and wondered, too. I also had an interesting thought while watching those names form on the map. Look at the way they are listed in both cannon and movie: Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot, & Prongs. Now flip it - Prongs, Padfoot...and they died in reverse order form their listing. So, a prediction: the next to go [in book 6, hasn't JKR said Wormtail returns in it] will be Wormtail. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jun 19 03:55:06 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:55:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers Message-ID: <199.2b3529a3.2e05131a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101965 In a message dated 6/18/04 9:29:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: batchevra wrote : > Snape is in a position of authority, and he abuses that authority > in that he bullies both Harry and Neville. >Del replies : How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? Yes he bullies Harry, Neville, and countless others. But it doesn't seem to bother anyone in authority over Snape. So to me it looks like Snape is *allowed* to act that way if he feels like it. It's abuse in OUR eyes, but it doesn't seem to be so in the WW's eyes. We must be careful not to apply our own morals on another culture. (Alla is going to kill me for saying that...)< I am confused about what you are trying to say here, first you ask how Snape is abusing his authority and then in the next sentence you agree that Snape is bullying Harry and Neville. I am under the impression that the story tells of British culture which is in some ways similar to the United States, but different in its own way. I have always been tolerant of different cultures, I am not tolerant when it comes to people abusing children. When that line is crossed, I have problems with it, and Snape crosses the line in quite a number of ways. If Snape wants to be strict, then let him be strict, if he wants to be unfair than let it be, unfair. But don't abuse a child. >Alla wrote : > I am also in agreement with Batchevra - if Snape is uncapable of > overcoming those effects of the abuse, let him hate those childrein > in private, but not take it out on them. Del replies : Why should we expect him to do that ?? Nobody is forbidding him from doing it, and I suspect he gets some kind of twisted pleasure out of it. So why ever should he restrain from doing it ??< The same way you were able to not abuse your child, Snape should have been able to restrain himself, I mean I'm sure he could have found more flies to zap instead of bullying Harry and Neville. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 03:56:21 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:56:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow References: Message-ID: <005201c455b1$63880f10$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 101966 > On an unrelated note (except that it's still about time) the > interpolation that really fascinated me in the POA movie was that > the Harry in the first run-through feels physical pain when the > stone is thrown at him by Harry in the later run-through. That feels > very significant to me. One possibility is that the pain Harry > always feels in the scar when Voldemort does things is across time, > not across space as we have hitherto supposed. But there could be > lots of other ways this info is relevant. > Well, personally, when I was watching the movie I didn't think that TimeTravel!Harry felt the pain, I took his rubbing the spot as an action that simply accompanied his remembrance of feeling the pain there. But, I agree it can be interpreted either way and it is an interesting theory if you're right. Speaking of time-travel, to me the Time Room in the DOM referenced not only time travel but the phoenix as well, with the little bird that was forever trapped in a cycle of birth, death and rebirth. I think we take the Phoenix in all its manifestations in the book as a representation of time as well. Alina. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 03:58:04 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:58:04 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101967 Snow wrote previous: JKR said in her web site under Extra stuff about the Weasley's: Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort. I have been unable to find such referencing in the Sorcerer's Stone version and would very much like to know what is quoted in Philosopher's Stone version about this statement. I have a feeling the twins are going to learn that they are Prewetts in book six and Molly's fear of them attempting to avenge their fathers death will become reality. Dhyana replied: The reference to the Prewetts is actually in Chapter 3 of SS. Hagrid tells Harry that Voldemort killed some of best witches and wizards of the age and then goes on to list: "The McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts" I don't think they are referenced other than that, though. Snow: Thanks, Dhyana, for the insight on this matter. The website read as if I was supposed to know that Molly was related to the Prewett's and I thought I really overlooked something or the U.S. version wasn't privy to the same facts as the Brittish Version. Possibly JKR thought that she had wrote a direct connection between the Prewetts and Molly or this was just one of those hidden clues on her website we were supposed to find. Dhyana: After reading that bit of info on the website, and then rereading OoP, I began to wonder if the Weasly children know they were related to G & F Prewett also.They are mentioned by Moody when he shows Harry the origional OoP picture and when the Death Eaters escaped from Azkaban we're told that Dolohov's picture has a caption saying that he was convicted of murdering G& F Prewett. Ron is sitting right there at the table when they discover this news, but seems to react to the news as a whole and not to any bit in particular. This is in contrast to Neville and Susan Bones, who either react to the news or to people's reactions to them. So either the Weasleys don't know they are related to the Prewetts, or are choosing to not to talk about it. I'm not sure what the is reason either way. Snow: Really nice observation; didn't think about that scene at all. Dhyana: It could be, like you said, that Molly is keeping that bit of information secret from the entire family, to keep the twins unaware of their heritage. But I still wonder about how Molly could keep her family history secret from the rest of her family. She would have to cut off all ties to her extended family. I guess they never went to visit Granny and Grandad Prewett (maybe they weren't around anyway, we don't know). You'd think that the kids would at least know their mother's maiden name, though. There has to be a good reason for it, I'm very curious to know what it is, and I think you're right, that we will probably find out more about the Prewetts in the next two books. Snow: Along with the fact that we are talking about boys taking an interest in family background curiosity, I think you're right that Granny and Grandad Prewett may well have been deceased, so there would be no need for anyone to question anything if Molly said she doesn't have any living relatives. I doubt that employment in the WW asks for your mother's maiden name. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 19 03:56:48 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:56:48 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D4155A.13977.8EACC0@localhost> Message-ID: <40D44620.10749.14D3774@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101968 On 19 Jun 2004 at 2:58, kyntor70 wrote: > Dreadnought wrote: > > "We see Snape teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins - the fact that > his strategy differs between the two *could* be a reflection of the > fact that he acknowledges the different prevailing characteristics > warrant different teaching methods. Gryffindors - courageous, and > brave - are probably the least likely to suffer ill effects from > biting sarcasm and verbal attacks than those less brave would be. > Slytherins - ambitious - may well learn best in an environment > where their egos are stroked." > > Kyntor replies: > > Do you really think verbal abuse would work well on Gryffindors? I > would think that it would have the opposite effect on them. It sure > has killed their enthusiasm for subject. I don't ever remember a > Gryffindor actually looking forward to Potions. Define 'work well'. A student doesn't need to be enthusiastic about a subject, or to look forward to that subject, to do well in the subject. It can cetainly *help*, and make it easier - but it's not essential. I doubt that Snape is the slightest bit concerned about whether the bulk of his students are enthusiastic about his classes. He's certainly not concerned about whether or not they enjoy them. So those factors aren't going to motivate him to teach them what they need to learn. But is he concerned about them doing well in them? Yes, he is - if for no other reason than their results reflect on him. And that is the reason he teaches them. I know some people think its critical that children enjoy their lessons, are enthusiastic about their classes, and look forward to them. But it really isn't. All those things are *desirable* if a teacher can manage them, but they are not absolutely critical. I learned plenty from classes I was incredibly unenthused about, and from classes I *dreaded* attending. I would have rather they were different - but it wasn't critical that they were. Now, do I think Gryffindors may learn well from Snape? Yes, I do - because one of the natural reactions to being goaded in the way Snape does is to defy that person. If a harsh teacher tells you are too stupid to learn something, sometimes that can make you learn it *just* to prove them wrong. The major problem with such methods is that they certainly *can* damage children is overused, or used with the wrong child. But if you have a group of children selected for their personal bravery, it's fairly unlikely they are going to be damaged by such methods (this is why I have had concerns about Snape's methods with regards to Neville - because until Order of the Phoenix, I wasn't convinced Neville could handle this treatment - now I think he can - he does have the resilience and courage he needs to do so). Is it the best way to teach the Gryffindors? I doubt it. But is it the best way that *Snape* is capable of using - possibly. > Just because people are in the same house don't mean they all think > the same way (look at Harry and Hermione). If Snape is trying find > teaching strategies to best fit his students why would the dividing > line fall neatly along house lines. In an ideal world, and an ideal school, differentiation of teaching could be completely individual. However, in classrooms with twenty children (as we see for potions, IIRC) (often larger in the real world, of course), it is extremely difficult for a teacher to completely individualise their instruction. Many teachers make no attempt at individualisation at all. Others try to do it by looking for the most *prominent* differences in the class, rather than every difference. In the case of Hogwarts, the most obvious prominent difference (with the possible exception of gender) is division by house. Is it ideal? No - but if it has happening, then at least two methods are in use in the class, rather than just one - and that is some degree of improvement. > I find it extremely difficult to believe that Snape's verbal abuse is > a teaching method that Snape has tailored specifically for the > Gryffindors. If that were true, when he saw that it wasn't effective > (such as with Harry and Neville), he should change his teaching > methods towards them. He does not. I agree that *if* it is a deliberate teaching method, then he *should* be changing it in individual cases when its not working. But it is not at all uncommon for a teacher not to do this. Teachers in the real world *should* do this as well - and many do. But a great many simply do not. There are lot of teachers who make no differentiation attempts whatsoever. There are many who make only token efforts such as trying only two methods in a class without individualisation when its needed. From a pegagogical point of view, this is certainly a bad thing - but it's not at all an unrealistic situation. It happens in classrooms all over the world, every single day. > I can see where a stern but fair teaching method would benefit some > students. I can understand that some students only thrive in > atmospheres were they are challenged. But I find it very difficult > to beleive that a normal, adjusted teen could ever benefit from the > abuse and humiliation that Snape dishes out to his Gryffindor > students. Well, I did (-8 So did, I'd say, well over half of my classmates - with most of the rest gaining no benefit, but also suffering no ill effects. While I accept I might not have been 'normal' and 'adjusted', I find it hard to believe that none of us were (-8 > There was no excuse for Snape destroying Harry's vial in OotP. > That's not a teaching method that is deliberate sabotage of a > student's work. As I have said all along, there are certain individual things Snape has done that I find no excuse for. He's crossed the line on particular occasions, even in my view. *However* there's a lot of venom aimed at his *general* pedagogical technique, and I don't think that is as bad as many other people seem to. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 04:25:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:25:35 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D44620.10749.14D3774@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: snip. > I doubt that Snape is the slightest bit concerned about whether the > bulk of his students are enthusiastic about his classes. He's > certainly not concerned about whether or not they enjoy them. So > those factors aren't going to motivate him to teach them what they > need to learn. > > But is he concerned about them doing well in them? Yes, he is - if > for no other reason than their results reflect on him. And that is > the reason he teaches them. > Alla: Here is my main problem with Snape's teaching method, Shaun. I don't believe that he is doing it to Gryffs because he wants them to learn. I don't . I think he enjoys tormenting them, because he can. I would probbaly be a little more tolerant to him, if I thought hat he wants Gryffs to do well, but I don't think so. Alla. > From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat Jun 19 04:42:51 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:42:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F69E082-C1AB-11D8-A7FB-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101970 From: Irene What I find amusing is that people discuss Snape's teaching methods as if he was a unique monster from hell. "Ritual humiliation" was a recognised teaching technique in british schools until quite recently. At least there is no cane in Hogwarts, so let's keep things in proportion. Well, there has been a lot of discussion! My mailbox overfloweth. Hmm?and it?s not just British schools either, for wasn't "ritual humiliation" accepted in the past in some U.S. parochial schools too? That said, I'm reasonably sure that JKR, a teacher herself, is not setting Snape up as the teacher of the year. In one of her interviews, she lauds Lupin as being an excellent teacher, not Snape. We aren't supposed to love Snape as a teacher. His students may even do well with OWLs, but teaching is more than passing on facts that will help you pass boards. He certainly hasn't done anything to challenge the values of his Slytherin students (Malfoy et al.) Their reactionary ideas remain unchallenged. This is a direct opposition to Lupin, who in scene with the Boggart, directly confronts students with their fears, perhaps saving Neville from a nervous breakdown and Hermione too. (Hermione's anxiety concerning her schoolwork may have eventually caught up with her too.) Actually, I think some forms of corporal punishment might be kinder than some of Snape's cutting remarks. Kyntor replies: >First, I don't really believe that Snape is practicing "ritual humiliation" purely for the benefit of his students.? He >seems to enjoy humiliating certain people just entirely too much.? Why does it seem that Harry's potion classes are always together with Slytherin? Not an accident, I think. These classes act as a stage for Snape to show (Malfoy et al.) how loyal he is to Slytherin and how much he really hates Gryffindor. Part of Snape's cover? At least in part. Snape does seem to enjoy belittling students though. Not nice. There must be a great need for DD to keep Snape close by. A need so great that it overrides whatever offence Snape commits in class. Harry?s fate too seems to be tied up with Snape somehow. And let?s face it, DD has to hire *someone* from Slytherin. Someone needs to be Slytherin's head of house. I doubt if there are many Slytherin candidates that DD would trust. Who knows? Perhaps most Slytherins would run classroom in a similar manner as Snape, (I bet you that Umbridge was in Slytherin.) I think DD knows a lot of what is going on in Snape?s? classes, but for the greater good chooses to look the other way. What the greater good is, still remains to be seen though. Barbara (Ivogun), apologizing for sending yet another post on this much discussed topic. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 04:50:35 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:50:35 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101971 This is an interesting idea, any thoughts on what happened to their mother? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snow previously: > > I'm sorry but I dont understand your reply to my post? The main > idea was that the Weasley twins are really the Prewett twins. As far > as the names representation, along with my theory, I have one: > > Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon > Prewett...F&G. > > > Mandy replied: > But why change their name from Prewett to Weasley? If it was to hide > them wouldn't someone in the WW would know that there were two > Prewetts boys who would have been about 2 years old at the time of LV > fall? I just don't know if something like that could be kept secret > from two boys as precocious as Fred and George. It seems to me that > someone would have let the cat of the bag by now. > > Intersting idea though. > > Mandy > > Snow again: > As far as changing the name I don't think it was meant to hide the > boys as much as protect them from the knowledge that their father was > killed by Voldemort. If the boys grew up knowing that this was what > happened to their father they may have set out early-on to avenge > their father's death. Also, this name change would mean that Molly > would be spared of having to keep the memory of what happened to her > (probably brother) alive. > > As far as who knew about the twin's real father, I would think that > anyone who knew the Weasley's back then would honor their secrecy > over the tragic matter. Also, something that Arthur said to the kids > at the Quidditch World Cup just after they saw the dark mark, led me > to believe that he possibly experienced his(Prewett)death first hand. > > GOF Pg. 142 "Ron, You-Know-Who and his followers sent the Dark Mark > into the air whenever they killed," said Mr. Weasley. "The terror it > inspired you have no idea, you're too young. Just picture coming home > and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what > you're about to find inside " Mr. Weasley winced. "Everyone's worst > fear the very worst " > > This could mean that the Prewett brother was possibly living with > them at the time, or at least the twins were being taken care of by > Molly, while their father was at work for the Order. With all of the > other children they had, not many would question whom the twins > actually belonged to. Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the first > time around and they live in a more country setting without neighbors > so I wouldn't think too many people would have questioned it. > The older boys Charlie and Bill would have been about 7 and 9 at the > time of Voldy's downfall but if the twins always pretty much lived > with them, and even if they were aware of the truth, they grew up > with the twins as their brothers and wouldn't have thought to say > anything, especially if Molly had forbidden them. > Although we don't know when exactly the twins real father may have > died, I take it from what Mr. Weaseley said at the World Cup that it > may have been at the height of Voldemort's terror. This could mean > that the twins may have just been born. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 19 04:51:56 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:51:56 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D44620.10749.14D3774@localhost> Message-ID: <40D4530C.25226.17FB36F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101972 On 19 Jun 2004 at 4:25, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Here is my main problem with Snape's teaching method, Shaun. I don't > believe that he is doing it to Gryffs because he wants them to learn. > I don't . I think he enjoys tormenting them, because he can. I would > probbaly be a little more tolerant to him, if I thought hat he wants > Gryffs to do well, but I don't think so. You could be right - but I am inclined to think he wants them to do well, for three reasons. The first is that their performance *does* reflect on him. The OWLs and the NEWTs are externally assessed. "'Before we beging today's lesson,' said Snape, sweeping over to his desk and staring around at them all, 'I think it appropriate to remind you that next June you will be sitting an important examination, during which you will prove how much you have learned about the composition and use of magical potions. Moronic though some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an "Acceptable" in your OWL, or suffer my... displeasure.'.... 'But we have another year to go before that happy moment of farewll,' said Snape softly, 'so, whether or not you are intending to attempt NEWT, I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts on maintaining the high pass level I have come to expect from my OWL students.'" (OotP, p209,210). The second is that Snape seems passionate about his subject - and I can't see him wanting his students to take it less than seriously. "'You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion making,' he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every word - like Professor McGonagall, Snapre had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort. 'As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron, with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death - if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach.'" (PS, p102). That speech gives me the impression that Snape *wants* those students who have the talent to see what he sees in potions, to develop that skill. He wants them to learn. Thirdly - even if Snape's only real motivation is to torment his students, teaching them legitimises that torment. Pushing them to learn gives him an excuse to torment them if he wants to. Could you see Snape passing that up? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bd-bear at verizon.net Fri Jun 18 15:21:05 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:21:05 -0400 Subject: Some questions/comments about GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101973 Why does VM address PP as Wormtail? Wasn't that just his marauder nickname in school? Why did PP find (look for) VM after POA? Wouldn't it have been safer to just hide out as a sewer rat somewhere? Or perhaps he was so afraid of his old "friends," he felt he had to align himself with VM again, even if he didn't know how much power he would have when he found him. Why didn't DD have Harry start Occlumency lessons in GoF? Since Sirius told DD about Harry's scar hurting and his first dream before Harry even mentioned that it happened a second time, shouldn't DD have realized then that there was a connection between VM and Harry that could be dangerous? Why did Moody/Crouch turn Malfoy into a ferret, or was that to prove he (Moody) is a "good" guy? Actually, I think I can answer that myself, since Barty Jr. holds a grudge against all the DEs that escaped prosecution and weren't "faithful" to VM. Is there any connection between the well known phrase "Abra Kadabra" and the Avada Kedavra in the book. Is this JKR's way of taking a popular "magical" phrase and adding some meaning to it? Why are only certain people ghosts, for example, why aren't Lily and James ghosts? Also, are the ghosts we see at Hogwarts former Wizards? It's so clear to me that Fudge is the "One, too cowardly to return. . ." With all his denying that VM is back at the end of the book, it seems so clear that he's afraid that he's going to be punished by VM for not supporting him or looking to help him when VM was in exile. And he has the ambition and desire to stay MoM which certainly can't happen if he starts prosecuting DEs and VM. . .they can implicate him and then he'll lose his job and get thrown into jail! It's also clear to me that Snape is a double agent, that DD trusts him because he went from being a DE (or maybe was even faking that for VM) to being a spy, and he will be accepted by the DEs again, even though he didn't show up at VM's rebirth, because he can say he was maintaining his cover as a spy, not letting DD know anything was going on. And although I don't like Snape in general, if DD trusts him, so do I. JKR has painted Snape in very broad strokes that you can't miss- -bad guy, Harry hates him, he's mean to people, etc. That's a little too obvious to make him truly evil, I think. I also loved how Snape and McGonagall really do act as DD's right-hand men, they don't question him when he directs them to do something and they are completely loyal and trusting of him, as he apparently is of them. I am forced to wonder yet again how a movie of GOF can possibly be made with out scaring the bejesus out of everyone under 10! I mean, I know some kids are allowed to watch cartoon violence and stuff that's obviously made with special effects and all, but VM putting the Cruciatus curse on people, Wormtail cutting off his own hand, etc... That's all seriously disturbing stuff! I fear that the directing/writing team won't do justice to the all-important graveyard scene because of the kids in the audience. Ideally, I'd think that making an accurate representation of the book into a movie would require an "R" rating, and they won't want to have a "R" rating for it if they want to market it primarily to kids. I felt SO bad for Harry. What an ordeal to go through. And who knows how much of his acting out and anger in OOTP isn't at least partly a result of his trauma at the end of GOF. After all, right after that he's left alone for most of the summer (IIRC. . .if I don't, I apologize- -I'm about to read OOTP) to deal with his memories of that night. That was a pretty horrible experience and he gets virtually no support almost immediately after it happens. I have changed my mind about POA being my favorite book. I think GoF is now. I've read it at least 3-4 times now and for some reason, in the past, I always thought it was too complicated. But I followed things much better now regarding what Barty Crouch, Jr. did and how things happened, and at the end I had tears in my eyes when Lily and James come out of the wand. I reserve the right to add to my comments if I think of anything else. :^) Barbara bd-bear From dzeytoun at fanfiction.net Fri Jun 18 11:10:08 2004 From: dzeytoun at fanfiction.net (dzeytoun) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:10:08 -0000 Subject: What if other teachers behaved like Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101974 > Carol: > OTOH, not having Harry's memories protected ought to have > "facilitated" his efforts to protect them. I absolutely disagree with this. All this accomplished, and logically could accomplish, is pain and humiliation. > > I'm guessing that the method Snape is using to teach Harry is the > method by which he himself was taught, presumably by Dumbledore, and > it may well be the only way to learn it (which could explain why it's > so rare). This is pure speculation and, in my opinion, relies on a belief in Snape's reasonableness that is entirely unfounded. Being nice and > respecting your student's feelings isn't going to prepare your student > to deal with a murderous enemy who wants to invade his mind. This is utterly and absolutely illogical. By this reasoning the way to learn martial arts would be to endure broken bones day in and day out until you accidently found a way to block the blows. The ONLY way to learn to defend yourself correctly is to go slow in an environment that carefully precludes forcing people beyond their limits too soon. As I say, a logical approach would have been to give Harry a pensieve to make him more comfortable until he mastered the basic skills. So what if Voldemort won't take this approach? We are talking about the inculcation of skills and methods, not real world combat training. You don't throw people into actual combat until they have the basic skills necessary to survive. Yes, acquiring these skills isn't necessarily pleasant, but you don't acquire them by being forced from day one to defend yourself against full attacks by experts. "Clear your mind!" Oh, that helps a lot Severus. Dzeytoun From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 16:49:39 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:49:39 -0000 Subject: Fishing... (Warning time-travel related) about Marchbanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101975 Just a thought...IF Ron (or Percy) is Dumbledore, who is Aberforth? From abbet69 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 18:39:16 2004 From: abbet69 at yahoo.com (abbet69 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:39:16 -0000 Subject: Fred a great wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101976 I was just rereading CoS and was wondering how a five year old Fred could have changed Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider? I knew Fred and George were talented, but this talented. Abbet From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 04:59:06 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:59:06 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101977 Snow: The Weasley Theory, upthread for more details... "jelly92784" wrote in response: > This is an interesting idea, any thoughts on what happened to their > mother? Snow: Only one. That she may have been killed by Voldemort which caused her husband and his brother to become part of the Order to avenge her death. This would be realative as to why Molly held information back from the twins fearing that they would act in the same manner. From harp66 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 20:05:09 2004 From: harp66 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy Message-ID: <20040618200509.5634.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101978 On her website, JKR addresses the raging shipping controversy in the following manner: Q:Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? A: I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. Am I the only surprised that JKR believes the answer is an easy one to work out since there are many diligent amateur Potterists who have analyzed the textual evidence who cannot answer the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? I had begun to believe that JKR wanted this question to be hard to answer. Peter Shea From firedancerflash at comcast.net Fri Jun 18 21:37:49 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:37:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Taking it seriously References: Message-ID: <026101c4557c$812e3010$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101979 Book five a failure? Surely not. It would be a failure if you wanted to keep everything staic instead of dynamic. Of course there is satire, and yes, plenty of comedy. You only have to look at the descriptions of and the reactions to Cedric's death in Book 4 to see real pathos. The thing is, you just gotta love and care about most of the characters. They're as real as fantasy characters can get. These folks are real as they can be to me--not phisically, God knows I wouldn't meet them if I were strolling through a mall somewhere, but in my heart, they are real, and that's kind of sad. I wish they were present in this reality. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 18 22:12:47 2004 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (julie w) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:12:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D368DF.3030703@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 101980 delwynmarch wrote: > I, Del, wrote : > > > Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something > > > about Snape's classes. > > Darrin replied : > > You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we > > won't go!" > > Del replies : > Actually, they did do it with Umbridge. We are told that entire > classes started using the Skiving Snackboxes to skip her lessons. But > we don't hear anything like that about Potions. And I don't think > that's just because they are all too petrified by fear to think of it :-) And I add: I think that is more because they know they are receiving important knowledge, no matter how much of a prat Snape is, in Potions, whereas in Umbridge's class the kids knew it was BS and not going to help them so they were not willing to put up with her. Del wrote: > Life at Hogwarts is tough, and the kids have accepted that. We might > not like it, but it won't change anything. Not only is life at Hogwarts tough, I have a feeling that life in the WW is tough. It seems to be a world where children are expected to grow up fast and toughen up. I'm sure its been mentioned before, but this is a society that sees nothing wrong with throwing a kid out the window to scare up some magic in the child. We really cannot hold the WW up as a mirror of RL, its just not. If it was, I believe parents would complain about Snape...Malfoy was more then willing to go after Hagrid after Buckbeak. It seems like the school Governors would deal with him if there were enough complaints. I think the parents all remember one or two crappy teachers and figure if they survived so will their children survive Snape. Snape acts as he pleases and cares not what the children think because the adults are pleased with whatever results he gets. Snape is my favorite character and I really do not want to psychoanalyze him, or see him all angstsy but prefer to see him as the sarcastic, snarky, cruel bastard that he is. He may have ulterior motive for his actions, or he may just see the rest of the WW as a bunch of asshats. I'm not even sure he can be completely trusted, no matter what DD says and would love to find out he's really playing both sides against the middle in the end....I fear he will not survive book 6 or 7. Pity, that. Julie W in AR From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jun 18 23:19:07 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:19:07 -0400 Subject: decision for VWII References: <1087327848.13658.22734.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <009001c4558a$a7e88da0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101981 >Janet - Part of the point of the Second Wizarding War is that >*everyone* is going to have to decide, by word >or deed, where they want to be, from children and teenagers on >up to aged wizards. Christina: You probably didn't mean it this way, but what you are saying is yet another correlation to Christianity that others are finding in the books. I know JKR says she didn't write them to be an allegory but I'm finding lots of interesting information in the essays I've read. Christina in GA - forgive me for being 3 days behind : ( Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 00:50:22 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:50:22 -0400 Subject: Hagrid cleared, too late to learn magic? References: <1087345399.8268.73664.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <015f01c45597$67603f00$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101982 >Tana: If someone is wrongly >convicted in the muggle world they restore his rights. I have no >clue why nobody in the WW is trying to get Hagrid cleared, and >his official right to use magic restored. Christina: I think this is why Hagrid is teaching in PoA after his innocence is proven in CoS. Why he doesn't have a new wand I don't know. Maybe it's too late for him to learn the magic he missed? I wonder if DD could have continued tutoring him after he was expelled. He seems to know quite a few charms and things and can use them with DDs permission. Maybe in the last 2 books it will be Hagrid who finally learns the magic he should have learned after being expelled in year 3. I think if DD had been headmaster in Hagrid's day he wouldn't have been expelled. The other headmasters seem to have been a lot more strict. If Dippet had been headmaster with our trio they would have been gone a long time ago. DD seems to be more forgiving. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 00:59:10 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:59:10 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101983 Valky: Also I will be investigating Hermiones few interactions with Mrs Norris in the books to scour for more. Eustace_Scrubb: > > A Hermione/Hermes connection would make this yet more interesting. > I'll look forward to what you discover. Hi Eustace, Back from my investigation into Hermione re Norris in COS. What I have discovered is that immediately following Mrs Norris' unfortunate experience with the Basilisk Hermione begins reading !everything in the library! of course this is in order for her to learn something about the Chamber of Secrets itself and she is most certainly preoccupied with this matter during the reading. There are two interesting things that caught my attention about this quite subtle story in the plot of COS. One is that Hermione could not read Hogwarts a History at this time she had left her copy at home and all the library copies were gone. Accordingly at this time she couldn't possibly have put together any clues she may have found about Mr Norris identity with the History of Hogwarts. Second Mrs Norris was the first victim of the Basilisk AND Hermione had no information at her disposal about the History of Hogwarts, hence she would have *necessarily* because of her exceptional curiosity and intelligence, "gone around the horse" so to speak to investigate what had happened to Mr Norris. I believe that this would almost certainly include an investigation of CATS. Presumably if there was something not catlike about Mrs Norris Hermione would likely have come across it in her studies. Because it was irrelevant to the Chamber of Secrets and the present danger I would expect Hermione banked any information like this for later reference because as we know Hermione forgets nothing. Curiously she finds herself an interestingly non cat, catlike pet, altough she intends to buy an owl, in book three. I have a great deal of suspicion that this is a clue to Mrs Norris true identity. Hermione chose a catlike creature that was not a cat almost as soon after she was able to have some reckoning that Mrs Norris was interesting as could be possible. ie post the Chamber of Secrets when she came across the information post her first time at home since COS began and therefore post being able to read Hogwarts a History (Hermione did not go home for the christmas holidays in COS)and post seeing the Crookshanks for the first time who was recognisably to "the observant" aka Hermione not a cat but something entirely superior. Something has clicked in Hermione the third cog definately turned when she saw Crookshanks and subsequently chose to buy him. Ok this is a long and puzzling post that I hope you can make sense of. What I am trying to say is if that third cog turned finally, when Hermione saw Crookshanks, then maybe she chose him as her familiar for the same reasons that she realised applied to Mrs Norris. And if so, what does Hermione wanting to own Crookshanks tell us about Mrs Norris? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 01:00:37 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:00:37 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101984 [Lee]: > Book 8? I remember a couple years ago reading some sort of rumor > about that, but JKR disputes it. Hmm--... Valky: Oops what was I thinking. From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 01:57:24 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:57:24 -0400 Subject: DD omnicscient (sp?) / Harry & glasses References: <1087401218.17815.56998.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <018201c455a0$c47ef740$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101985 Phil: >Just as a quick example, how *did* he know that >Harry was visiting the "Mirror of Erised" in the first place. (SS, US version, p 213) "So," said Dumbledore, slipping off the desk to to site on the floor with Harry, "you, like hundreds before you, have discovered the delights of the Mirror of Erised." "I didn't know it was called that, sir." "But I expect you've realized by now what it does?" "It - well - it shows me my family - " "And it showed your friend Ron himself as head boy." "How did you know - ?" "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." said Dumbledore gently. "Now, can you think what the Mirror of Erised shows us all?" Christina: So now we know that DD knew Harry was there because DD can become invisible aparently at will and doesn't need a cloak to do it. He also appears to just "know" things. I guess that also comes with being over 150 years old (guessing his age). Does anyone ever think we read too much into these books? If JKR were to read some of these messages breaking down the books and comparing them to religion, mythology, etc would she scratch her head and say "Where on earth did they come up with that?" Siriusly Snapey Susan: > So rather than foiling Voldy by removing his glasses, I fear the >opposite--that Harry will become helpless [kinda like Fearless >Fly--remember him, anybody?] if he gets separated from his >glasses again. Christina : I can't find my glasses. Scooby, help me find my glasses. Sorry, I couldn't help thinking of that. : ) Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From jazmyn at furrystuff.com Sat Jun 19 04:34:48 2004 From: jazmyn at furrystuff.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:34:48 -0700 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D3C268.6000805@furrystuff.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101986 Lynx412: > And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was > in charge of his condition. job to provide Lupin with his potion and security, as she had in > the past? Kneazelkid: > Pomfrey took Lupin to the Willow so he could "transform", not to > give him potion. In fact, if she was able to make the potion, > perhaps Lupin would never have transformed at school. I think it > seems likely that Snape, being a skilled potion maker, can make the > potion, while Pomfrey cannot. It's mentioned in the books that the Wolfsbane potion is a recent discovery. Pomfry could not have been making it back when Lupin was in school. And Snape might be the only one at Hogwarts able to make it, as Lupin mentioned it's very hard to make... Jazmyn From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 01:34:28 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:34:28 -0400 Subject: Professor or just Snape? / Underage magic References: <1087395361.14377.78245.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <017101c4559d$90146a60$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 101987 Ginger: >(As an aside, I never noticed that all >the other teachers were referred to by JKR as Professor with >Snape being the exception. Hmmm.) Christina: I think that is again because we are reading Harry's POV. He doesn't think of Snape as Professor Snape, although DD and even Sirius and Lupin tell Harry to call him Professor. He called DD Professor or Headmaster when he's with him but when he's talking with R & H he just says DD. Same with Lupin, I believe. Re: Underage magic, this has bothered me as well. It's obvious the Weasley kids had been doing magic all along. Didn't Hermione say she'd been reading and practicing as soon as she got her letter and found out about her powers? It seems like there is a lot of ambiguity in this restriction. Christina in GA - now only 2 days behind Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From littlekat10 at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 05:17:20 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:17:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Argus Filch References: Message-ID: <027e01c455bc$b28f12b0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101988 Interesting points you made, M. Clifford. I'm sorry if I have gotten your name wrong. But now you have got me thinking. Is it possible that both Crookshanks and Mrs. Norris are animagi? Or one of them perhaps? This could make things very interesting indeed, very interesting indeed! Littlekat From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 05:25:38 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 05:25:38 -0000 Subject: What if Snape does not have to maintain any cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101989 Pippin: > Once > the lessons begin there's not one reference to Harry's father, till > Harry looks in the Pensieve. Snape puts his worst memory of > James where it couldn't possibly color his thoughts. And what > did Harry do? Went and fetched it out again. There's no way, > now, that Snape can escape it, because now it's part of Harry's > memories, too. Annemehr: D at mn, you're good. Why did I never think of that? Unless Snape taught Harry to put it in the pensieve too (riiight). Pippin: > > That, plus re-read what happens in the lesson in chapter 26. > Just after Harry makes his most successful effort at repelling > Snape, just after he breaks into Snape's mind, Snape tries > legilimens again--and Harry has a vision *he's never had > before*!!!! That's no memory--that's Voldemort, in real time, > manipulating Harry's mind right in the middle of Snapes !@#$% > office. And Snape knows it, because Harry tells him he's never > seen that before. No wonder Snape tells Harry he isn't working > hard enough. And Snape is right--Harry made no effort at all to > block the vision. Annemehr: No, that was a direct result of Occlumency lessons foreseen by Dumbledore, which is why he felt he could not teach it himself. In his talk with Harry in his office, he said "I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence." Of course, Harry didn't practice -- enough -- either. But if he wasn't working during that lesson, how did he block Snape just before? Annemehr From marcuscason at charter.net Sat Jun 19 05:29:17 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 05:29:17 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D44620.10749.14D3774@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101990 Dreadnought wrote: > A student doesn't need to be enthusiastic about a subject, or to > look forward to that subject, to do well in the subject. It can > cetainly *help*, and make it easier - but it's not essential. Kyntor Replied: Certainly enthusiasm isn't essential, but neither is condescension, sarcasm, and bias. Dreadnought wrote: > But is he concerned about them doing well in them? Yes, he is - if > for no other reason than their results reflect on him. And that is > the reason he teaches them. Kyntor replies: I think you are ascribing more nobility to Snape than he deserves. I think Snape would be more than happy to have no Gryffindors in his NEWT class whatsoever. Dreadnought wrote: > I learned plenty from classes I was incredibly unenthused about, > and from classes I *dreaded* attending. I would have rather they > were different - but it wasn't critical that they were. Kyntor replies: I have also learned in classes that I was unenthused about. However, being unenthused about a class is a lot different from the Professor purposefully sabotaging your results. Dreadnought wrote: > Now, do I think Gryffindors may learn well from Snape? > > Yes, I do - because one of the natural reactions to being goaded in > the way Snape does is to defy that person. If a harsh teacher tells > you are too stupid to learn something, sometimes that can make you > learn it *just* to prove them wrong. The major problem with such > methods is that they certainly *can* damage children is overused, > or used with the wrong child. > > But if you have a group of children selected for their personal > bravery, it's fairly unlikely they are going to be damaged by such > methods (this is why I have had concerns about Snape's methods with > regards to Neville - because until Order of the Phoenix, I wasn't > convinced Neville could handle this treatment - now I think he can > - he does have the resilience and courage he needs to do so). Kyntor replies: I find it hard to believe that the "piss them off so they do good just to spite you" approach to teaching would be very effective. And I find it especially difficult to believe that it would work at all against 11 year olds. The rebellious mindset needed for this method to work isn't present until the children mature a little. Dreadnought wrote: > Is it the best way to teach the Gryffindors? I doubt it. But is it > the best way that *Snape* is capable of using - possibly. Kyntor replies: Actually the best way he would be capable of would be to treat the Gryffindors exactly as he does the Slytherins. I don't think it is about what he is capable of, but what he chooses to do. Dreadnought wrote: > Is it ideal? No - but if it has happening, then at least two > methods are in use in the class, rather than just one - and that is > some degree of improvement. Kyntor replies: Not neccessarily. If the two different methods aren't chosen carefully, they could be less effective. For instance, I believe the grades would be much better in Snapes class if he treated all the house the way he treated Slytherins. Being abusive to students doesn't provide any advantage that other methods don't include (except of course Snapes twisted enjoyment of bullying children). I see Snapes behaviour as a very necessary part of the story. I believe JKR wants us to be shocked at his behaviour. She wants us to be outraged at not only how he treats his students but also by the fact that he gets away with it. I believe that she is using this situation to reflect the darkness inherent in wizarding society. A darkness represented by prejudice, abuse, apathy, and moral ambiquity. A darkness created and perpetuated by the members of that society. Just about every wizard that I have seen in this story is infected by at least some part of this disease, even Dumbledore. I also believe that this was one of the reasons that JKR had Harry raised by muggles. Modern society (muggles) is making great strides to eliminate these behaviours; something wizarding society has yet to do. Harry, being on the outside of society and looking in, is better able to see and avoid this darkness. The moral outrage and indignation brought to the wizarding society by Harry and the muggleborns is very important. Without these precepts, wizarding society has no impetus to change. And if wizarding society doesn't change, it will keep producing an abundance of dark wizards. Sorry if I got a little off topic. Kyntor From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 05:34:02 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 05:34:02 -0000 Subject: Argus Filch In-Reply-To: <027e01c455bc$b28f12b0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Littlekat10" wrote: > Interesting points you made, M. Clifford. I'm sorry if I have gotten your > name wrong. But now you have got me thinking. Is it possible that both > Crookshanks and Mrs. Norris are animagi? Or one of them perhaps? This > could make things very interesting indeed, very interesting indeed! > > Littlekat Sorry to burst your bubble about crookshanks, but he is part kneazle. JKR said it on her site, you can find it under the extra stuff :P Jacqui From littlekat10 at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 05:33:12 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:33:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid cleared, too late to learn magic? References: <1087345399.8268.73664.m16@yahoogroups.com> <015f01c45597$67603f00$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <02e101c455be$e9ad9170$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 101992 I have some thoughts about Hagrid that I shall discuss here. Perhaps Hagrid knows more than we think he knows and perhaps he hides his knowledge so that he can effectively be an ambassador between the wizarding world and the world of the giants. Remember that giants are afraid of magic. If they thought Hagrid possessed magic then they would very likely be afraid of him, too. But this way Hagrid can act as a go-between. And now here is my second thought. Perhaps Hagrid's adult brain is unable to learn all the magic he was denied the privilege of learning as a result of his expulsion. this would still make his role of ambassador suitable. We do not know what Hagrid's fate will be but perhaps all of what has happened to him will culminate in something beyond what we can imagine. Littlekat From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 06:56:24 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 06:56:24 -0000 Subject: Class issues in names was Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: MaggieB: > An American here. I realize that there are class differences in > names across the pond. I remember reading SS the first time and > thinking that surly Aunt Petunia was mad when she called "Harry" a > low class common name. My own gut feeling is that Harry is in > general a higher class name than Dudley, is my gut wrong? > > Perhaps some of our British members would care to start a discussion > along these lines to enlighten the rest of us? Geoff: Using one of my now standard openings(!), can I direct you to... There was a short set of posts on this very topic quite recently.They were messages: 10207-208-212-218-240-253 which I think you will find of interest. From senderellabrat at aol.com Sat Jun 19 07:13:56 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 07:13:56 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101994 Mandy: > Bill (William), Charlie (Charles), Percy (Percival), Fred (Fredrick), > George, Ron (Ronald) and Ginny (Ginerva) Me: I may be wrong because I can't find the source where I just read this (then again I may have dreamt it! It's possible! I've been having some Potter dreams lately), but I recently read Ginny's name is Virginia. I don't remember whether it was on Mugglenet, the book chat transcript or on JKR's site. Those are the only 3 things I've checked out Potter related in a few months. It was within the last month or so that I saw that (or think I did). I just tried to find it, but I went cross eyed trying to do this. If anyone remembers seeing this, let me know so I know I didn't dream it. If I'm wrong, I swear I'll zip it =o). I was just wondering where you saw her name is Ginerva? Sen From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 19 08:39:47 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:39:47 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D44620.10749.14D3774@localhost> Message-ID: <40D48873.27285.25058E8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 101995 On 19 Jun 2004 at 5:29, kyntor70 wrote: > Dreadnought wrote: > > > But is he concerned about them doing well in them? Yes, he is - if > > for no other reason than their results reflect on him. And that is > > the reason he teaches them. > > Kyntor replies: > > I think you are ascribing more nobility to Snape than he deserves. I > think Snape would be more than happy to have no Gryffindors in his > NEWT class whatsoever. It's not nobility - it's self interest. He's a teacher - his students performance makes him look good, their lack of performance makes him look bad. I somehow don't think Snape would enjoy being criticised by Dumbledore - and I do think Dumbledore would be likely to do so if whole Houses started failing a subject. I don't think Snape would enjoy having to answer to outraged parents either. A less than perfect teacher, even a cruel teacher, may be tolerated while he is achieving decent results - but I doubt he would be if he wasn't even discharging the most basic function of his profession satisfactorally. I've no way of knowing where the lines are for Snape, of course - but it's certainly possible they are at a point which requires him to teach. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > I learned plenty from classes I was incredibly unenthused about, > > and from classes I *dreaded* attending. I would have rather they > > were different - but it wasn't critical that they were. > > Kyntor replies: > > I have also learned in classes that I was unenthused about. However, > being unenthused about a class is a lot different from the Professor > purposefully sabotaging your results. Yes, it is - but how often has this happened? Is the Snape's general teaching practice, or are we talking specific instances again. Let me make it clear in case I haven't been. Snape's treatment of Harry is, in every instance where it differs from his treatment of other students, indefensible and reprehensible. But Harry is a special case, IMHO - Snape's hatred of him is separate to his treatment of his other students. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Now, do I think Gryffindors may learn well from Snape? > > > > Yes, I do - because one of the natural reactions to being goaded in > > the way Snape does is to defy that person. If a harsh teacher tells > > you are too stupid to learn something, sometimes that can make you > > learn it *just* to prove them wrong. The major problem with such > > methods is that they certainly *can* damage children is overused, > > or used with the wrong child. > > > > But if you have a group of children selected for their personal > > bravery, it's fairly unlikely they are going to be damaged by such > > methods (this is why I have had concerns about Snape's methods with > > regards to Neville - because until Order of the Phoenix, I wasn't > > convinced Neville could handle this treatment - now I think he can > > - he does have the resilience and courage he needs to do so). > > Kyntor replies: > > I find it hard to believe that the "piss them off so they do good > just to spite you" approach to teaching would be very effective. And > I find it especially difficult to believe that it would work at all > against 11 year olds. The rebellious mindset needed for this method > to work isn't present until the children mature a little. Well, it was effective with me and my classmates, but we weren't 11. The youngest I know of when this method was used (with my classmates) was when they were 12 (I didn't join the school until we were all 13) when the first Snape-teacher I encountered was their Form Master and teacher for three subjects. It seemed to work for them from my observations the following year, but I didn't observe that year directly. But please note, I just said that *one* of the naural reactions to be goaded in the way Snape does was defiance - that's the specific reaction I think is most relevant to Gryffindors specifically (and your question asked me about Gryffindors specifically). It isn't the *only* reason. And while I can agree to an extent that that specific reason might not apply that much with 11 year olds, some of the others certainly could. For younger students, the possibility of avoiding some of Snape's biting comments might well be the main reason for working harder in his class. Classic operant conditioning involing a punishment stimulus ('Snape might target me'), or if you prefer classic operant conditioning involving negative reinforcement ('if I do better Snape might stop targeting me!'). There's also less intensive version of the goad response - in some cases, the desire isn't so much direct defiance of the teacher, as to convince those around you that the teacher is wrong - or to convince yourself. There's multiple factors at work. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Is it the best way to teach the Gryffindors? I doubt it. But is it > > the best way that *Snape* is capable of using - possibly. > > Kyntor replies: > > Actually the best way he would be capable of would be to treat the > Gryffindors exactly as he does the Slytherins. I don't think it is > about what he is capable of, but what he chooses to do. Well, no, because I don't think treating the Gryffindors in the same way he treats the Slytherins would necessarily be the most effective way of teaching the Gryffindors. Effective teaching does *not* involve treating all children in exactly the same way. That idea is the *single most important reason* why my own education was such a horrible experience when it involved methods that many people would find quite attractive. When you do that, you always wind up neglecting some children's educational needs in favour of the others. We don't see too much of how Snape teaches the Slytherins - it's possible the methods he uses with them are good methods (although it also seems possible he lets them get away with not learning if they don't want to). But even if they are good methods for the Slytherins, that would not automatically make them good methods for the Gryffindors. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Is it ideal? No - but if it has happening, then at least two > > methods are in use in the class, rather than just one - and that is > > some degree of improvement. > > Kyntor replies: > > Not neccessarily. If the two different methods aren't chosen > carefully, they could be less effective. For instance, I believe > the grades would be much better in Snapes class if he treated all the > house the way he treated Slytherins. Being abusive to students > doesn't provide any advantage that other methods don't include > (except of course Snapes twisted enjoyment of bullying children). OK, you're right - using two methods is not *automatically* an improvement - the methods do need to be chosen carefully. But we're not in a position to tell whether the methods Snape uses with the Slytherins are effective or not. As far as I can recall, the only indication we have that allows us to compare class performances between the Slytherins and the Gryffindors is Lucius Malfoy's statement "'I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam.'" And that involves a non random sample size of 2 - and one of the sample is Hermione Granger who could probably come top of her classes if sewn into a sack and left in the Chamber of Secrets for the entire term. We can't see Snape's marks book - so we can't know if the methods he uses with the Slytherin's are more effective or not than those used with Gryffindor. Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Gryffindor's marks are, on average, higher than the Slytherins - because I think they are generally more likely to work harder, and they also don't have Crabbe and Goyle. But we don't know one way or ther other. > I see Snapes behaviour as a very necessary part of the story. I > believe JKR wants us to be shocked at his behaviour. She wants us to > be outraged at not only how he treats his students but also by the > fact that he gets away with it. I believe that she is using this > situation to reflect the darkness inherent in wizarding society. A > darkness represented by prejudice, abuse, apathy, and moral > ambiquity. A darkness created and perpetuated by the members of that > society. Just about every wizard that I have seen in this story is > infected by at least some part of this disease, even Dumbledore. Interesting perspective - personally I look at the Wizarding World and see one that's far healthier than our own. It has problems, certainly - but I'd choose to live there. > I also believe that this was one of the reasons that JKR had Harry > raised by muggles. Modern society (muggles) is making great strides > to eliminate these behaviours; something wizarding society has yet to > do. Harry, being on the outside of society and looking in, is better > able to see and avoid this darkness. The moral outrage and > indignation brought to the wizarding society by Harry and the > muggleborns is very important. Without these precepts, wizarding > society has no impetus to change. And if wizarding society doesn't > change, it will keep producing an abundance of dark wizards. Somehow... I'll have to think about this... I find it hard to personally believe that JKR believes the Wizarding World she has created is morally inferior to the Muggle World. Have we seen a single decent Muggle in any detail in any of the books? Even Hermione's parents seem to be become estranged from their daughter. Harry and Hermione - raised by Muggles, both. Which would they choose given the choice? The Wizarding World, or the Muggle? I could believe that JKR might have something like what you describe in mind if if five books, she'd ever given us the impression that the Muggle world was a better one than the Wizarding World. But for the life of me, offhand, I can't think of a single case. The two Wizards we see most with real experience of both - Harry and Hermione. I'm pretty sure I know what they would choose. That doesn't mean they might not like to see a few things changed - Hermione would definitely like to liberate the House Elves, of course. But overall I think we are presented with a Wizarding World more attractive than the Muggle one. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 19 09:12:24 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:12:24 -0000 Subject: T-bay Theory Preparations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oakleafevolution" wrote: > Ok, my sister introduced me to this site, and it's been a while since > I saw any T-bay things, so why not? > > *Oakleaf, or Oak as she preferred to be called, used a blue colored > pencil to sketch out the design for a new seagoing device, of small > size but, as she figured it, large importance. The plan showed it was > going to be long and thin, with a forboding skull flag. She signed > the bottom of the blueprint in an untidy scrawl, and then sucked on > the end of her quill, wondering what to name the pirate ship... ok, > maybe more of a pirate rowboat... > > "Hmm," Oak murmured to herself, sitting on the dock, "Something > begginning with a P?" Pie had been taken years ago... maybe something > to do with a great battle? Of course! P.E.L.E.N.N.O.R! Percy's > Evilness Lies Evident, Nefarious News to the Order's Reality!* For my part I'd like to nominate the following. ORIGINAL SIN Our Responsibility Is Given Inheritance Never Abandon Love Snakes Imbibe Nihilism An ancient longship has birthed in TBAY, she is named ORIGINAL SIN and her prow displays a green eyed serpent, she lists alarmingly to port. Her crew, attired in green and silver, utter faint whispering and murmuring noises. "What's wrong with them?" asks an onlooker. "They are having an attack of the vapours." replies her companion. Standing on the dock is a blind man, ancient and wizened, by his side is a highly burnished sword wielding warrior. The old man is intoning, the warrior simply toned. A few passers by stop briefly, confidant that they can always avail themselves of a more seaworthy vessel. "I have a tale to tell of ancient wrongs, so ancient they are not written" quoth the old man "That means he's making it up" said a young, but experienced elf "quothing is never good!" "Over 1000 years ago" continued the man, unperturbed by the heckling (or possibly deaf, though obviously not dumb which wouldn't make sense) "at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, Salazar Slytherin, whilst dabbling in the dark arts, was possessed by an evil essence. This essence brought with it new powers and abilities so Salazar chose not to deny its presence within. He created the Chamber of Secrets to undertake a scheme to conquer the world. Horrified his friends, the other founders of the school, tried to persuade Salazar to forgo his evil powers, but he would not, battle ensued. Overcome by the other three Salazar fled. To this day this rift between the founders creates conflict within the school. Bitter and disaffected Salazar swore revenge on his former friends, when his body failed him he used old magic to transfer his powers to the body of his heir. Externally, the heir host appeared unchanged except for a small silver scar shaped, it is said, to resemble a snake. Thus became the terrible legacy of the house of Slytherin. Generation to generation the host heir was created anew at the moment of death. Proudly inheriting both scar and title. The heir carrying the mark was named the 'Dark Lord'." "This IS a long ship!" observed one onlooker darkly "At least we can admire the burnished warrior" replied another. "It's the sword that's burnished you fool. Do you think He's a Berserker?" "Well somebody clearly is!" Still the old man held forth relentlessly. "After 1000 years there remained only one descendent and she was subject to a prophesy that she would never conceive from a pure blood. In desperation she sought out a muggle partner, as like a pure blood aristocrat as she could find, and so Tom Riddle was born. His mother lived long enough to pass the inheritance to him, then died. Ironically Tom Riddle, with his muggle blood, was as powerful as Slytherin himself and opened the Chamber of Secrets, he styled himself Voldemort (stealer of death)." "Then a terrible prophecy was overheard of the coming of 'the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord'. Acting in haste and panic Voldemort attacked Harry Potter, but the curse backfired, his dark magic encountered a powerful force for good, an older magic. The outcome of this conflict of light and dark was both wonderful and terrible. For the Dark Lord was vanquished and his power diminished, almost unto death. At that moment of near death, however, the ancient magic of Salazar Slytherin was confounded. The evil essence divided itself and half transferred to Harry Potter. Two now carry the Slytherin ancestry. Two alike as twins, both half bloods, muggle raised, given the mark of the snake as babies, as their mother died, passed to them without consent, unasked, unwished for. The evil essence in Harry has lain dormant but even now it awakens within him soon he must conquer it and its twin which resides with, what ever remains of, Tom Riddle." "And now" the old man raised his voice indicating that he was coming to the end of his diatribe to the blessed relief of all concerned "Voldemort has returned to power, aided by blood taken from Harry which has deepened their kinship. This blood will be the key to the survival of Harry's immortal soul." He prophesied. The remaining audience, for many have moved on by now, are restless. "Where's the canon?" one asks "On a longship, are you kidding?" states a pedant and walks away. Regards Jo Alternatively we could just go with Ever So Evil Essence! From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 19 09:48:55 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 05:48:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's Message-ID: <1e8.234658fd.2e056607@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 101997 In a message dated 6/19/2004 3:14:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, senderellabrat at aol.com writes: I may be wrong because I can't find the source where I just read this (then again I may have dreamt it! It's possible! I've been having some Potter dreams lately), but I recently read Ginny's name is Virginia. ========================== Sherrie here: That's been the assumption, of course, since it's the most common name for which "Ginny" is a nickname. However, JKR on her website states that her name is Ginevra, and in the World Book Day chat gave her middle name as "Molly". Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 10:24:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:24:01 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: Alla: > > Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slyhterin knows this > > spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right > before > > the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth > > and wanted to test his suspicion. Darrin: > Snape just wanted to get his rocks off by making Harry squirm in > front of a snake and taught Draco the spell on the spot. > > Either way, I agree that Snape taught him the spell on the spot. Geoff: I dug out an intriguing little bit of trivia this morning. I finally emerged triumphantly from the archive a few days ago clutching my old Latin dictionary and grammar book to my chest. On this question of spells, browsing round in them showed me that many of JKR's spells remind me of the computer's attempt in "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" to make a cup of tea which was described as being something like tea but not quite tea. Her Latin incantations are often something like Latin but not quite Latin... However, when I came to have a look at "Serpensortia!" I was fascinated. We already know that the Latin word "Draco" means snake or dragon - "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" - "never tickle a sleeping dragon". However, when I analysed the above spell command, it is basically correct Latin, meaning "cast a snake" - cast as in casting a spell. So the Latin word "serpens" is another word for snake, but - it is also the Latin name for the constellation Draco. Probably trivia but the sort that fascinates my tiny mind.... From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 10:41:06 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:41:06 -0000 Subject: Fred a great wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 101999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, abbet69 at y... wrote: > I was just rereading CoS and was wondering how a five year old Fred > could have changed Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider? I knew > Fred and George were talented, but this talented. > > Abbet Sue I noticed this. too. My only conclusion is that Fred and George are pretty damned bright. They're good at all their subjects, they have to be - and that includes Potions - to be able to produce all those joke shop goodies. The only reason they didn't do well in their OWLs was because they were spending all their time developing their line of joke shop items and, while they did do some last-minute study (see POA), they really don't care much about results. Remember, they've been compared to that other pair of trouble-makers, James and Sirius, and they were said to be the brightest kids in the school. :-) From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 10:53:35 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:53:35 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D368DF.3030703@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, julie w wrote: > > Not only is life at Hogwarts tough, I have a feeling that life in the WW > is tough. It seems to be a world where children are expected to grow up > fast and toughen up. I'm sure its been mentioned before, but this is a > society that sees nothing wrong with throwing a kid out the window to > scare up some magic in the child. We really cannot hold the WW up as a > mirror of RL, its just not. > If it was, I believe parents would complain about Snape...Malfoy was > more then willing to go after Hagrid after Buckbeak. It seems like the > school Governors would deal with him if there were enough complaints. I > think the parents all remember one or two crappy teachers and figure if > they survived so will their children survive Snape. Sue True to the extent that if a teacher is getting results, the parents of kids in an old- fashioned private school wouldn't bother complaining - actually, I'm surprised no one is complaining about Umbridge - just because she has power over the school doesn't mean she has power over the parents. They might not be able to get her sacked, but nothing is stopping them from withdrawing their kids and sending them, say, to Beauxbatons, where there's a competent Principal and Fudge can't interfere. As for parents having survived Snape, don't forget he's a bit young to have taught the parents of most of these kids. :-) Okay, maybe a few ... but he's only in his 30s. I suppose he might just have taught some of them in their last years of school when he was in his first year, but only just. And first year teachers usually have a lot to learn. Boy, did I ever make mistakes in my first year out! And I had training, Snape didn't. ;-) And come to think of it, do they even have parent teacher nights at Hogwarts? From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 10:55:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:55:36 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102001 Snow wrote: JKR said in her web site under Extra stuff about the Weasley's: Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort. I have been unable to find such referencing in the Sorcerer's Stone version and would very much like to know what is quoted in Philosopher's Stone version about this statement. The relevance to my theory that Molly had "close" family members who died would allow for such an undertaking by Molly to adopt the twins as her own. It would also make the two conversations of the twins and Molly's much more understandable. vmonte responds: You know, Molly's comment about "that's everyone in the family," has always bothered me. Even though I have to admit my own mother has said silly things like that. I just don't think that JKR would have included these comments for no reason. You're idea that they could be the children of one of the Prewett clan is good. Isn't there an unusual gap between all the kids ages? (I could've sworn that I heard somewhere the theory of the missing Weasley child?) There gap in ages could just be that some of the children are adopted. And not telling the twins that they are adopted would be for their own safety as well. I always wondered why the Weasley's weren't involved with the first LV war. I often wondered if DD wasn't trying to keep them safe. Since JKR has mentioned that some of the Hogwarts staff are married, I've often wondered if the twins belonged to a widowed DD who sent them to live with Arthur's family for their own safety. vivian From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 11:00:33 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:00:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <20040618200509.5634.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > On her website, JKR addresses the raging shipping controversy in the following manner: > > Q:Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? > > A: I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. > > Am I the only surprised that JKR believes the answer is an easy one to work out since there are many diligent amateur Potterists who have analyzed the textual evidence who cannot answer the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? I had begun to believe that JKR wanted this question to be hard to answer. > > Peter Shea I think it was pretty clear by GoF that Ron and Hermione were a junior Benedick and Beatrice - and if that isn't enough, Hermione is very much the helpful friend in the case of Cho Chang, in OOP. I am only surprised that there is any argument over this. (g) And by the film of CoS, JKR was throwing out hints that the scriptwriter had put in a clue to things that would happen in future books - in the context, I believe it was that scene where Hermione cheerfully hugs Harry, but gets all awkward and shy with Ron and shakes hands. By the third movie, she is throwing her arms around him to weep - and I haven't heard JKR complain about this. Sorry, Peter, but I think it's clear - to me, at least - in the novels AND films that Hermione and Ron will eventually be an item. :-) From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 11:14:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:14:18 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102003 Sen wrote: I recently read Ginny's name is Virginia. I don't remember whether it was on Mugglenet, the book chat transcript or on JKR's site. vmonte responds: Hi Sen. Ginny's name is definitely Ginevra. It's under information about the Weasley's on JKR's site. http://origin.jkrowling.com/en/ Click on the cup (extra stuff) and then select characters (Some random facts about the Weasley's). vivian From gautam1974 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 08:01:43 2004 From: gautam1974 at yahoo.com (Gautam) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:01:43 -0000 Subject: Fishing... (Warning time-travel related) about Marchbanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hettiebe" wrote: > Just a thought...IF Ron (or Percy) is Dumbledore, who is Aberforth? Hi, as this was just a thought then here's another take on this theory.......... Dumbledore is neither Ron (or Percy) but either George or Fred, and Aberforth is ther other twin. & according to the canon both DD & Aberforth display enough Mischievous traits to be the legendary Weasley twins. Gautam From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Sat Jun 19 09:38:09 2004 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:38:09 -0000 Subject: Teenage Harry goes back in time to Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040618214937.02925e90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > > Now if Harry does go back, and survive as his late teenage self. How the > heck does he get to the > present again. Would he have to live those 18 years while his baby self > grows? Then somehow > be in the same spot to merge at the time the time turner was > activated. And if he is wandering > around waiting in the sidelines. I wonder as who? If introduced. I assumed that if he lived, he time-turned back again. (However, see the par below for another option.) That it's only because they go back such a short way that they have to do the synchronising thing in POA. If he did time-turn back, Harry would still not remember the event (except baby memories) until he passes the age at which he'd gone back. But you're right, it's not firmly established that the time-turner will take you forward as well as back. I can't quite work out how it works for Hermione's lessons. > > But as a whole, headaches all round lol. > > However, I'm not quite clear. Are you suggesting all three of them time > turned and are running around > as youngsters then that night? > > Tanya I'm not really suggesting a theory at this point - just toying with possibilities. James wouldn't have had to time turn, and the other two ARE chasing each other in our present. But I don't have a hypothesis that they're all there at once - I'm just saying any one of them could be mistaken for any other if they were. Maybe I should start a new thread with this, because this IS a theory, but the similarities between Harry and Riddle have always been the most interesting thing for me, the moreso after OOTP where Harry starts hiding the truth about being able to see through LV's eyes because he LIKES it. I've been playing for a while with ideas along the lines that Harry and LV are not related, but are actually the same person, with time and choice being what makes the difference we see. (Notice that JKR never lets us know what colour Riddle's eyes are - LV's are red but if Riddle's had been I'm sure there would have been Remarks, even in a nice school like Hogwarts :) I haven't found a way to make this theory work properly, but there are lots of interesting aspects to it. It's persuasive thematically because the effects of time and choice are so important in the series as a whole that I sincerely hope JKR isn't working towards a simple good-evil standoff. It also opens the way for the prophecy to be unambiguously about Neville, of course. It's not just that Harry looks like Riddle: it's that they're both Parselmouths, they're both powerful wizards even while in their teens, the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin (against any sense that anyone else, including us, has of Harry to date), and depending on your definition of "open", they both arguably open the Chamber of Secrets. (If you do accept that Harry does that you're straight up against it, because only the heir of Slytherin can do that.) And they've got this connection through the scar: a connection which is expanding in OOTP. Much of that has been explained away as the residue of the GH incident, but I have never trusted the cosy explanations Harry's been given about that - if they were all true, why couldn't he have been given them as soon as he got to Hogwarts? The connection I'm really interested in is the similarity of their births. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Riddle's parents were allegedly a Muggle and a witch (who therefore had to be the Heir of Slytherin at that point). She died at some hazy time shortly after his birth, just like Lily, and the father disappeared and Riddle was placed in an orphanage. Harry's parents were allegedly a 'Mudblood' (not a Muggle) and a wizard with a good pedigree, and they both disappeared not long after his birth too and he was placed among the Dickensian Dursleys. (In what way James "disappeared" seems to have become a matter of concern among us in this thread.) These are extraordinarily similar histories, particularly given that Riddle's is very blurred with time, he's not a very trustworthy witness, and his remaining rels were all bumped off before anybody could offer a contrary story. As I said, I can't make it work really properly, but I just think the similarities are too glaring not to mean something. One of the points that has me stumped is that, if Lily's family really WERE Muggles, then Harry's wizarding ability (like his looks) comes through James, whereas if Riddle's story is right his powers must come through his mother, about whom we know absolutely nothing - which strongly suggests to me that she is a critical issue, especially given that she must be the Heir of Slytherin in her generation. Can you remember whether Riddle's murdered father looked like him or not? In answer to your first question, which is something I hadn't thought about before, that other option is that 18-year-old Harry disintegrates with the defeated LV because that's where THEY resynchronise (or just because the effect of thwarting the AK is that they do merge). So yes, then Harry DOES hang round for the next 11 years in the shadows. But Harry the baby develops of its own accord and makes different choices. I realise I've got a jigsaw clue missing, because otherwise the plot would just repeat eternally, but I feel that some of it might be right. I'd be delighted if anyone can suggest a rearrangement of the puzzle pieces that would make it work better. Lucinda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 19 12:02:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:02:25 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > So... any fallout from any abuse, be it Harry's, Neville's or > Snape's, is ultimately the fault of THAT person, rather than the > subterranean layers of hate built up through abuse. > Kneasy: It's not absolutely clear who is the *THAT person* is in your comment. Please clarify. darrin: > Good. Excellent. I like that. > > And my first application of the rules is: > > Get. > > Over. > > It. > > Snape. > > Now. > > That felt good! > Kneasy: Why on earth should he? If he can justify it to himself, why change? He doesn't give a damn about how Harry, Neville, whoever, feel about him; he's not interested in being "Most Popular at Hogwarts" in an end of year poll. He doesn't crave the approval of others. It's likely that he enjoys being nasty. He is, in fact, an archetype drawn from a long tradition of English schoolteachers in fiction. There is always one in every story/book that is the bane of the schoolboys existence. To be accepted as nasty, they have to be shown to *be* nasty. In these books it's Snape. So what? Why should this be a cause for concern? > darrin: > Ah, the advocate for the bully downplays the effects of the bullying > on the victim. > Kneasy: What effects? You haven't shown that there are any of any significance. And please don't drag in cod psychology; it doesn't apply. The 'abuse excuse' is only worth flourishing in retrospect - if eventually Harry can be shown to be emotionly screwed. Even then, more weight would be given to the trauma of his parent's deaths and the fact that someone out there is trying to *kill* him than to a few snide comments from a teacher he hates but does not seem to fear. > darrin: > Actually, Harry HAD shown flashes, glimpses of promise, and Snape did > not exploit them. Never once do we see TEACHING from Snape. We > see "close your mind," "master your emotions," "defend yourself" or > essentially, "How come you're not getting it?" > > And again, in the debriefing in D-Dore's office, he does not bring up > Harry's part in the mess, which I grant is there, but blames himself > for thinking Snape, who is responsible for his own actions and must > accept the consequences, could grow up enough to deal with it. > > Snape chose to give up. Whether he believed he was justified or not > is irrelevant. He made that choice and for his role, must accept the > consequences. > Kneasy: But how do you teach control of your own mind? It's not like Potions - add this and that, stir well, regulo 5 for 30 minutes. How can he demonstrate it? In effect, he can't. Occlumency seems to be a form of *self* discipline, no-one can do it for you. To not think of things is bloody difficult, try it sometime. To do it when there is a continuing temptation to do otherwise (the corridor, the door) makes it impossible. Unfortunately Snape can do nothing about these visions, he can have no influence on them whatsoever short of a mind-wipe or Imperio! The lessons are doomed to failure. Snape cuts his losses and perhaps prevents Voldy getting in his (Snape's) memories via Harry. Snape must know some interesting tid-bits about the Order that Voldy would love to have. > darrin: > No, sometimes bad is bad all the time. Some actions or behavior's can > be bad one day, acceptable the next. What Snape does in his > classrooms is not acceptable most of the time. > Kneasy: And sometimes it isn't. But it must be acceptable at Hogwarts - it happens almost every day. They do things differently there; within living memory (Filch) students were hung up, screaming, in the dungeons, Arthur received an unspecified but severe physical punishment for being out after hours with Molly. Comparisons with RL detract from appreciation of HP as a coherent whole. Wishing that a fantasy complied with the Real World seems bizarre IMO. Isn't it the whole point of Fantasy that it *isn't* real? Discussing the enormity of Snape's actions, or his motivations as *integral parts of the plot* is one thing. To apportion blame, as if he could rewrite his character if he wanted to seems delusional. > > Mind you, Snape doesn't give a toss anyway. > > He is sublimly indifferent to the opinions of others. > > Puh-LEAZE! > > "You will respect me!" > > "You should be thanking me on bended knee!" > > "You didn't listen to my opinion, Headmaster!" > Kneasy: Demanding respect for an appointed position has nothing to do with opinions, as many have pointed out. It is to do with recognition of authority and relative status. Recognition of gratitude due is good manners, again separate from opinions about the person involved. Opinion here refers to advice, not personal assessment. As a senior master it is his duty to offer such and to ask why it is not being given due consideration. > > > There was a commentator who asked one of the activists for peace why > > they lobbied the US President and not people like the Ayatollahs or > Saddam Hussein. Answer - "Because he listens and they don't." Guess > which group Snape falls into? He wouldn't listen to anything any of > us have to say. The only reaction that I can imagine would be ironic > >amusement. > > And this is admirable, how? > Kneasy: Admirable? It's wonderful! It's true to his character. It's what he is. And nothing any of us can do or say will change him. Accept it. Suppose by some miracle your witch-hunt (wizard-hunt?) of Snape succeeded beyond your wildest dreams and everybody on the site no longer posted contrary views. What would that mean? That you had imposed your own interpretations onto everyone else. The exact opposite of what this site is about. >darrin: > This is where I sometimes think Snape defenders are defending just to > defend. I really wonder how folks deal with the Snapes in their > lives. My guess is not with the same open-minded stance, once it's > applied to the real world. Kneasy: You're missing the whole point, Darrin. It's not the real world and never will be. That's the definition of fiction. It ain't real. Most of us can separate the two without difficulty or confusion and appreciate Snape as an extremely well-written and intriguing character. A real life Snape would be something else, same as a real life Dracula would be. But he's not, he's a figment of the imagination, deliberately presented as a boo!hiss figure. Relish it; he's an exemplar of the breed; not many writers could do it so well. > darrin: > I think you might be overestimating the tone of the Snape > bashers. "Agitated." > > I get agitated when my cat is limping, or when I don't get phone > calls returned at work. This is recreation. > > Consider me ironically amused at the Snape defending. > > Kneasy: That's not the way it reads. It reads close to obsession. Try checking some of your past posts. From fandomfan at rogers.com Sat Jun 19 12:18:34 2004 From: fandomfan at rogers.com (Sheri) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:18:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D42F1A.7060307@rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102009 > JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/2004 > > Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do > it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep > reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. > Hi, this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm repeating stuff. Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? I can't remember what exactly is told about the veil. I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from the veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it will take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) Sheri C. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jun 19 13:20:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:20:19 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102010 > > Del replies : > But Snape doesn't seem to care much about respect either. He goes > around looking like he's slept in a dustbin and doesn't know where to > find a bathroom (slight exxageration ;-) so it doesn't seem like he > wants to be respected that much. And the only time we see him > insisting on being called "Sir" is when he's trying to annoy Harry. > I don't think Snape ever got much respect, and maybe in return he > doesn't care about giving any. Maybe that's why DD insists on harry > calling him Professor Snape ? > Potioncat: There is a piece either under fastastic posts or at the Lexicon that addresses Snape's appearance. The gist of it is that it doesn't appear to be lack of hygiene. There is never a mention of either body odor or bad breath. Even though he's been close enough to spray Harry with spit when angry. His robes are not described as soiled or shabby or wrinkled. The time I recall him insisting on being called sir was in Occlumency lessons, when Harry did not call him sir. It seemed to me that Snape was making expectations clear. And it was consistent with the way adults correct children in the Southern US where children are expected to use sir and ma'am. So I don't think he was trying to annoy Harry. Back to appearance. We once had a thread about why there are so many witches and wizards with bad teeth if there are spells that can repair teeth (such as Hermione's) or spells that can clean. It crossed my mind that Harry cannnot get his hair to stay neat and even when it was cut, it returned to "normal" Do you think some wizards are cursed with an unchangable appearance/feature just as Tonks is blessed with a changable one? Potioncat From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 19 13:46:28 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:46:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Class issues in names was Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's References: Message-ID: <00b201c45603$d29de3f0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 102011 > > > Mandy, who's British and was just wondering if any American readers > > would recognize the subtle class issues involved in the names > people > > have in the UK? > MaggieB > An American here. I realize that there are class differences in > names across the pond. I remember reading SS the first time and > thinking that surly Aunt Petunia was mad when she called "Harry" a > low class common name. My own gut feeling is that Harry is in > general a higher class name than Dudley, is my gut wrong? > > Perhaps some of our British members would care to start a discussion > along these lines to enlighten the rest of us? > > K No it isn't (and yes it is). Glad I could clear that up :) Harry (usually a nickname for Henry btw) isn't uncommon in the upper classes, and has been favoured throughout history (two examples that come to mind are Henry IV (Agincourt) was referred to as Harry and so is Prince Charles' second son - actually the pub almost next door to me is the King Harry which is why the first example springs so readily to mind). However it's also quite a common name throughout society and very common amongst the 'working classes'. Dudley however is pretty much a middle-class-with-aspirations kind of name. *Very* nouveau-riche/pretentious. For Petunia who aspires to the very uppermost ranks of the middle class (she can't really become upper class as you're either born into it or marry into it - at least in the minds of most of the upper classes and most of the people she associates with) 'Dudley' has just the right ring to it whereas Harry doesn't - so she dismisses it by sneering at it (fairly inaccurately probably since it was before the birth of Prince Harry and she has no real contact with actual upper class people and is probably fairly ignorant about history) K From foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 14:21:34 2004 From: foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com (FoxyDoxy) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040619142134.42255.qmail@web52404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102012 > Alla: > > Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slytherin knows this > spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right before > the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth > and wanted to test his suspicion. Darrin: I agree that Snape taught him the spell on the spot. Whether or not Snape wanted to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth? I don't even give Snape blame for being that diabolical. Doxy: So let me get this straight. You guys think Snape taught Draco the spell on the spot and Draco pulled it off perfectly on his first try? No practice wand movement. No repeating the spell for pronunciation. That on his first try with a spell he learned only seconds ago he was able to create a long, black, dangerous snake instead of a harmless water snake? Nope. I don't buy it. If Draco were that good how is it Hermione beat him in every subject? I guess you could try to argue that when Snape "whispered something" in Draco's ear he was putting him under the Imperious Curse. But again, I don't think so. Harry sees Draco smirk, not a vacant expression. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat Jun 19 14:25:13 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:25:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A938A1A-C1FC-11D8-9317-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102013 On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > > Peter: > > For example, are we supposed to believe than Ron Weasley, as a > healthy, ordinary teenage male, has not yet consciously become aware > of his attraction for Hermione Granger or indeed any young woman? Is > Hermione supposed to be so unaffected by her "coming out" at the Yule > Ball that she completely retreats into her academic studies... > > Comments? > > Geoff: > > > ...To be quite frank, at that age I was probably Ron Weasley Mk.II and > would have come within that delightful category defined by Hermione > (?) as having the emotional range of a teaspoon! > It's the norm for girls to develop a little faster than boys, and so it's common for young teenage girls to be dating boys a couple of years older. They certainly did when I was in school. Now it's less common for an older girl to date a boy who is a couple of years younger than her. Thus we find Hermione going to the Yule ball with Krum, and most of the major Harry's ship contenders (Luna and Ginny) are a year younger than he is. As far as Hermione goes, she's doesn't seem completely immersed in studies to me. She goes to Quiditch matches and Hogmead Saturdays. And she spends a lot of time knitting to ?help? house elves. (I don't think I would have wasted so much time on such a project at her age.) Anyway she likes Ron who is still clueless, so she might as well spend her time studying. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 14:52:41 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:52:41 -0000 Subject: Fabian/Gideon & Fred/George (Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102014 Snow: > I am not sure how Molly was related to the two Prewett brothers (OOP > pg. 174) Gideon and Fabian, but when they were killed in the first > war one of the two may have left three-year old orphan twins behind > that Molly and Arthur raised as their own. Molly may have changed the > boys' last name so they would never know that Voldemort killed their > father and possibly seek vengance for their father's death. Molly > would have done this to protect the twins and her from not having to > further recall the horror that happened the night their biological > father/her brother? died. Jen: I tend to think Gideon and Fabian were brothers, possibly even twin brothers, of Molly. When I first learned Molly's name was Prewett, the idea of Fred & George literally belonging to one of the Prewett brothers came to mind (mainly to explain the prefect comment). Now I like the idea of a more symbolic interpretation. Say Gideon and Fabian were twins, possibly even similar in temperament to teenage Fred & George--liking adventure & trouble more than academics. When Molly/Arthur had the twins, they decided to honor Fred & George by naming the twins F&G too. Then the Prewett brothers are killed. Molly sees that Fred & George are becoming like her brothers as they grow. She fears for their future, fears they will meet a 'sticky end' like her brothers. Molly esp. would try to squelch them, make them more like Percy, Charlie or Bill. The more she tries to squelch, the more they retreat into their own adventures, partially to escape her censure, but also because they want to pursue their own dreams. Hopefully, if all this speculation is true(!), Molly has come to accept Fred/George and the risks inherent in their chosen profession. It seems that way when we see the Weasleys lined up at the train station to meet the Express in OOTP, long after Fred/George have left school for good. They appear to have made some kind of peace with Molly. The part that bothers me about a literal interpretation is all the secrecy and lies the Weasleys would have to engage in to hide the twins parentage. Even if it's only to Fred/George (if there truly aren't family or friends who know the truth), that's bad enough. Even to protect them. At that point Voldemort is gone and the Weasleys don't have any reason to believe he will return since they aren't privvy to the Order's information about the Prophecy. That's just a personal feeling, but it would bother me if they made that choice. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 15:44:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:44:41 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D4530C.25226.17FB36F@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Alla wrote previously: > > > Here is my main problem with Snape's teaching method, Shaun. I don't > > believe that he is doing it to Gryffs because he wants them to learn. > > I don't . I think he enjoys tormenting them, because he can. I would > > probbaly be a little more tolerant to him, if I thought hat he wants > > Gryffs to do well, but I don't think so. > Shaun: > You could be right - but I am inclined to think he wants them to do > well, for three reasons. > > The first is that their performance *does* reflect on him. The OWLs > and the NEWTs are externally assessed. Shaun: > "'Before we beging today's lesson,' said Snape, sweeping over to > his desk and staring around at them all, 'I think it appropriate to > remind you that next June you will be sitting an important > examination, during which you will prove how much you have learned > about the composition and use of magical potions. Moronic though > some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an > "Acceptable" in your OWL, or suffer my... displeasure.'.... > > 'But we have another year to go before that happy moment of > farewll,' said Snape softly, 'so, whether or not you are intending > to attempt NEWT, I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts on > maintaining the high pass level I have come to expect from my OWL > students.'" (OotP, p209,210). Alla: How much does the students' performance reflects on him? I am inclined to think that Dumbledore will keep him at school regardless, because his initial reasons for keeping Snape as ateacher have nothing to do with the teaching itself, but with the fight against Voldemort. I want to believe that no matter how stupid Dumbledore is, he would have never allowed Snape to teach if the threat of Voldie coming back was not in the air. Shaun: > The second is that Snape seems passionate about his subject - and I > can't see him wanting his students to take it less than seriously. > > "'You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion > making,' he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they > caught every word - like Professor McGonagall, Snapre had the gift > of keeping a class silent without effort. 'As there is little > foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is > magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the > softly simmering cauldron, with its shimmering fumes, the delicate > power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the > mind, ensnaring the senses... I can teach you how to bottle fame, > brew glory, even stopper death - if you aren't as big a bunch of > dunderheads as I usually have to teach.'" (PS, p102). > > That speech gives me the impression that Snape *wants* those > students who have the talent to see what he sees in potions, to > develop that skill. He wants them to learn. Alla: Oh, he is passionate about his subject, that I have no doubt about. At the same time he belittles his students throughout this speech, so no matter how passionate he is about Potions, I don't think he wants to pass the knowledge to the next generation. :o) Shaun: > Thirdly - even if Snape's only real motivation is to torment his > students, teaching them legitimises that torment. Pushing them to > learn gives him an excuse to torment them if he wants to. Could you > see Snape passing that up? Alla: What do you mean by "passing that up?" To Dumbledore? If yes, then yes, I can unfortunately. What did JKR say why dumbledore keeps Snape? teach lessons about dealing with nasty people? (paraphrase) I do see Dumbledore giving Snape a certain cart blanche and observing how students would react. Does not add to my respect of Dumbledore, but I think that it is plausible. Alla From rzl46 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 15:51:18 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:51:18 -0000 Subject: Class issues in names was Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > MaggieB: > > An American here. I realize that there are class differences in > > names across the pond. I remember reading SS the first time and > > thinking that surly Aunt Petunia was mad when she called "Harry" a > > low class common name. My own gut feeling is that Harry is in > > general a higher class name than Dudley, is my gut wrong? > > > > Perhaps some of our British members would care to start a > discussion > > along these lines to enlighten the rest of us? > > Geoff: > Using one of my now standard openings(!), can I direct you to... > > There was a short set of posts on this very topic quite recently.They > were messages: 10207-208-212-218-240-253 which I think you will find > of interest. Thank you for setting me straight. I feel like a heel for repeating a topic so recently discussed. My only excuse is that I just came back to the group a few days ago. I would like to point out, however that a zero was left out of the message numbers. The first one was 100207. MaggieB--who admits that it was rather perplexing that a message written in 2001 could be described as very recent From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 15:57:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:57:35 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: snip Darrin earlier: > > Ah, the advocate for the bully downplays the effects of the bullying > > on the victim. > > > > Kneasy: > What effects? You haven't shown that there are any of any significance. > And please don't drag in cod psychology; it doesn't apply. The 'abuse > excuse' is only worth flourishing in retrospect - if eventually Harry can > be shown to be emotionly screwed. Even then, more weight would be > given to the trauma of his parent's deaths and the fact that someone out > there is trying to *kill* him than to a few snide comments from a teacher > he hates but does not seem to fear. Alla: "Right Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: what would you say s the thing that firhgtens you most in the world?" Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out. "Didn't catch that,Neville,sorry," said Professor Lupin cheerfully. Neville looked around rather wildly, as though begging someone to help him, then said, in barely more than a wisper, "Professor Snape" - PoA, p.102, UK edition. Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity by the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are nott he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G-D for Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his fears out in the open. :o) snip. > Darrin previously: > > No, sometimes bad is bad all the time. Some actions or behavior's can > > be bad one day, acceptable the next. What Snape does in his > > classrooms is not acceptable most of the time. > > > > Kneasy: > And sometimes it isn't. > But it must be acceptable at Hogwarts - it happens almost every day. > They do things differently there; within living memory (Filch) students > were hung up, screaming, in the dungeons, Arthur received an unspecified > but severe physical punishment for being out after hours with Molly. Alla: Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he just wishes that they existed. Do we hear any other teacher ever mentioning them? Could you give me a cite, where Artur received physical punishment, please. We are not talking about Umbridge, of course. I am afraid that Dear severus is in his own league with his attitudes. Kneasy: > Comparisons with RL detract from appreciation of HP as a coherent > whole. Wishing that a fantasy complied with the Real World seems bizarre > IMO. Isn't it the whole point of Fantasy that it *isn't* real? Alla: I already addressed this issue in a different post. I most certainly don't want phantasy to be real, but many things in it still has to ring at least emotional truth to me. Kneasy:> > > > Mind you, Snape doesn't give a toss anyway. > > > He is sublimly indifferent to the opinions of others. > Darrin: > > Puh-LEAZE! > > > > "You will respect me!" > > > > "You should be thanking me on bended knee!" > > > > "You didn't listen to my opinion, Headmaster!" > > > > Kneasy: > Demanding respect for an appointed position has nothing to do with > opinions, as many have pointed out. It is to do with recognition of > authority and relative status. > > Recognition of gratitude due is good manners, again separate from > opinions about the person involved. > > Opinion here refers to advice, not personal assessment. As a senior > master it is his duty to offer such and to ask why it is not being given > due consideration. > > Alla: Kneasy, how could you divide one from another? Students do not know Snape as aperson. They only know him as a teacher. That's the only way he can demand respect from them - as a teacher. > Kneasy: > Suppose by some miracle your witch-hunt (wizard-hunt?) of Snape > succeeded beyond your wildest dreams and everybody on the site no > longer posted contrary views. What would that mean? That you had > imposed your own interpretations onto everyone else. The exact opposite > of what this site is about. > Alla: ????????? Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 15:58:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:58:59 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: <40D42F1A.7060307@rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > > JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/2004 > > > > Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( > > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do > > it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep > > reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. > > > > > Hi, this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm repeating stuff. > > Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? I can't remember what > exactly is told about the veil. > > I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads > somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from the > veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it will > take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. > Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) > > > Sheri C. Hi, Sheri! Welcome to SAD DENIAL. Join the dellusional ones (myself included) who believes that Sirius may come back int he bext books in one form or another. :o) Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:06:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:06:46 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <20040619142134.42255.qmail@web52404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, FoxyDoxy wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slytherin knows this > > spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right > before > > the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth > > and wanted to test his suspicion. > > Darrin: > > I agree that Snape taught him the spell on the spot. > > Whether or not Snape wanted to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth? I don't > even give Snape blame for being that diabolical. > > Doxy: > > So let me get this straight. You guys think Snape taught Draco the spell on the spot and Draco pulled it off perfectly on his first try? No practice wand movement. No repeating the spell for pronunciation. That on his first try with a spell he learned only seconds ago he was able to create a long, black, dangerous snake instead of a harmless water snake? Nope. I don't buy it. If Draco were that good how is it Hermione beat him in every subject? > > I guess you could try to argue that when Snape "whispered something" in Draco's ear he was putting him under the Imperious Curse. But again, I don't think so. Harry sees Draco smirk, not a vacant expression. > Alla: It is most certainly up to you whether to buy it or not. Personally I find nothing extraordinary that Draco learned the spell right away. Probably it is not the most complex magic in the world, not like "Patronus". Remember, most students in Lupin's DADA class learned "Ridikilus" right away. I also don't think that Snape put Draco under Imperious. From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:29:29 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:29:29 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <20040619142134.42255.qmail@web52404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, FoxyDoxy wrote: > So let me get this straight. You guys think Snape taught Draco the spell on the spot and Draco pulled it off perfectly on his first try? No practice wand movement. No repeating the spell for pronunciation. That on his first try with a spell he learned only seconds ago he was able to create a long, black, dangerous snake instead of a harmless water snake? Nope. I don't buy it. If Draco were that good how is it Hermione beat him in every subject? Mel Why not? Perhaps it's not a difficult spell. Are we to believe that ONLY Hermione can learn a spell first time? Harry, who takes forever to learn a simple summoning charm can manage a patronus. I really don't find it so hard to believe that Draco manages this single spell the first time. Besides, do you really want to read a duel scene in which it takes the participants 25 tries to get each spell. They were ALL hurling new spells around. How long did it take them to get 'expilliarmus' right? As far a the TYPE of snake--well that could go to a few things. The spell might entail picturing the snake you want before you cast the spell. Do you think Draco is going to picture a garden snake? Or, the snake produced may take on the characteristic of the spell caster--there you go. Maybe if Hermione tried that spell she'd get a completely DIFFERENT species. Mel From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:38:29 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D48873.27285.25058E8@localhost> Message-ID: <20040619163829.8896.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102021 Sean wrote: I could believe that JKR might have something like what you describe in mind if if five books, she'd ever given us the impression that the Muggle world was a better one than the Wizarding World. But for the life of me, offhand, I can't think of a single case. The two Wizards we see most with real experience of both - Harry and Hermione. I'm pretty sure I know what they would choose. That doesn't mean they might not like to see a few things changed - Hermione would definitely like to liberate the House Elves, of course. But overall I think we are presented with a Wizarding World more attractive than the Muggle one. My reply: That's really not fair to make that statement. I mean of course Harry and Hermione prefer the wizarding world over the muggle one they are better suited for it. We don't know this for sure but I get the impression that Hermione was a bit of an outsider in the muggle world. I believe in the first book *granted I don't have it on me so I can't look to be sure* but she says something to the effect of "I never really fit in but my family was very surprised when I got my letter. I'm the first witch." To me that implies that she found herself able to see things, or do things that other children were not able to do. We know Harry had incidences of "accidental" magic before going to school and based on what Hagrid asks in SS/PS we can assume that most wizard children, muggle or pure, do these things. Thus, I'm sure a witch with Hermione's talent did some accidental magic as well. I don't know for sure but I can assume that if she did this in the muggle world that it confused her and her parents greatly. She felt that she was a bit of an outsider to it, even if her parents did not do anything directly to make her feel that way. Thus, even if she enjoys the muggle world and finds that muggles are able to create a wonderful lives in it she can't really feel that she belongs in that world. She wants to be with other people who are like her. However, that doesn't mean that she thinks the magical world is better only different. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 19 16:49:14 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:49:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D46E8A.1000609@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102022 Mandy wrote: > Bill (William), Charlie (Charles), Percy (Percival), Fred (Fredrick), > George, Ron (Ronald) and Ginny (Ginerva) are strong English names. > Even the German and French ones are now though of as very English. > Most are royal names. To me they are proof that the Weasleys are a > solid working class family. That's interesting, because I was reading Weasleys as an impoverished nobility. The wizarding world Bennetts, or Dashwoods if you will. Just with lots of boys instead of girls. :-) The only thing I can base this feeling on is, strangely, Malfoys attitude. Their animosity (Lucius to Arthur, Draco to Ron) is the sort of animosity you display to an equal. There has to be some long history between these families, or I will be disappointed. Compare Draco's attitude to Hagrid - he can't be bothered to hate him on the same level as he hates Ron, because Hagrid is not even on his social radar, he is more of a servant that forgot his position. Irene From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 16:50:00 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:50:00 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102023 Mel: > Why not? Perhaps it's not a difficult spell. Are we to believe that > ONLY Hermione can learn a spell first time? Harry, who takes forever > to learn a simple summoning charm can manage a patronus. I really > don't find it so hard to believe that Draco manages this single > spell the first time. Besides, do you really want to read a duel > scene in which it takes the participants 25 tries to get each spell. > They were ALL hurling new spells around. How long did it take them > to get 'expilliarmus' right? Jen: The only problem with this is...what if Draco gets it wrong? Harry would have a clean shot at him, not something Snape and Draco want. More humiliation for Draco, then. It seems like learning to produce a snake would be a little like learning transfiguration--you start producing inantimate objects first, then move on to insects, etc. Even Hermione has only been able to produce fire so far by COS. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:52:27 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040619165227.52151.qmail@web50006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102024 Sue wrote: True to the extent that if a teacher is getting results, the parents of kids in an old- fashioned private school wouldn't bother complaining - actually, I'm surprised no one is complaining about Umbridge - just because she has power over the school doesn't mean she has power over the parents. They might not be able to get her sacked, but nothing is stopping them from withdrawing their kids and sending them, say, to Beauxbatons, where there's a competent Principal and Fudge can't interfere. As for parents having survived Snape, don't forget he's a bit young to have taught the parents of most of these kids. :-) Okay, maybe a few ... but he's only in his 30s. I suppose he might just have taught some of them in their last years of school when he was in his first year, but only just. And first year teachers usually have a lot to learn. Boy, did I ever make mistakes in my first year out! And I had training, Snape didn't. ;-) And come to think of it, do they even have parent teacher nights at Hogwarts? My reply: I doubt they do have a parents night. I mean we never hear of the parents coming for an unexpected visit during the school year. The only time we see parents on the school grounds at all is during Quidditch matches and also during the triwizard tournament. However, I suppose that doesn't mean that they do not come onto the grounds at other times. I guess I just assume if they had visited at another time we would see Harry and Ron getting a visit from Molly and Arthur. To answer the other thought about why parents didn't call and complain about Umbridge one can conclude that there were complaints they were just not strong enough for the parents to pull their child out of the school. Also, Umbridge was probably reading the owls the children sent home to their parents. Changing them or completely throwing them out if they portrayed her in an unfavorable light. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:54:07 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:54:07 -0000 Subject: OT: British V American- Source UK Editions in USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > Yes. They have all been "Americanized" but the earlier books more so > than the last. ... For about $35, you can order a box set > of softcover UK editions 1-4 from www.amazon.co.uk That's what I did. > Speaking of which, I wish we knew when the softcover editions for > OotP are coming out... > > Arya bboy_mn (now Asian_lovr2): If you are in the USA, you can order HP books from Canada and get the equivalent of the UK versions. Here is one major Canadian bookseller who has good prices - http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/ (Remember, their price are in CANADIAN Dollars, not USA) For the most recent book (OotP) I ordered from Chapters/Indigo. I really wanted to read the UK version, and while I liked getting the un-translated version, the UK/Canada version has very small print, no index, different cover, and no illustrations. I can live with the no index and no illustrations, but given that my eyesight is fading as fast as my hairline, the small print made it very difficult to read. As I read, I saw no noticable differences between the two. Minor changes we made like 'sweater' for 'jumper', but few British-isms were removed from this book. The differences are so minor now, I don't see any need to get the UK versions. However, in earlier version, big changes were made; not just translations but re-editing. Words were put into other people's mouths, changes were made that compromised or confused the meaning of things, people were added or subtracted, etc.... Someday when the series is finished, I might order the complete set in UK version just so I can say I have it. Now if they would only print with bigger font, I would be happy. One point worth noting, the Canadian publisher print the books on good quality 100% recycled paper; no trees died in the making of these books. Just passing it on. Steve From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 16:54:32 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:54:32 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity by > the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. Mel Well let's see. He's never MET Voldemort, and we have no idea of whether he was present during the visit of 'his servants'. He's as afraid of Voldemort as any of the other students there. They ALL have things that are more immediate in their lives and therefore, in their child minds more imminently terrible. > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are nott > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G-D for > Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his > fears out in the open. :o) Mel And Hermione is more terrified of bad grades. > > > Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't > witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he just > wishes that they existed. Mel Maybe--but that's not what he says. What he says is that it WAS. That's the canon we have so far. There is no canon at this time to suggest otherwise. > > Alla: Kneasy, how could you divide one from another? Students do not > know Snape as aperson. They only know him as a teacher. That's the > only way he can demand respect from them - as a teacher. Mel Sorry, if someone REPEATEDLY saved my life and proved themselves to be looking out for my best interest I'd be cowed to realize I'd been thinking about them the way Harry thinks of Snape. Look at his reaction in PoA when LUPIN pretty much repeats EXACTLY what Snape has just told him--that his parents gave their lives to save him, that the WW is doing everything they can to protect him and here he is FLAUNTING that to go out for a fun run in town. His reaction? "Duh". Then indignation, of course. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 17:03:57 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: <40D42F1A.7060307@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20040619170357.7541.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102027 Sherri C wrote: Hi, this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm repeating stuff. Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? I can't remember what exactly is told about the veil. I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from the veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it will take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) My reply: Hey Sherri and welcome to the group! I agree with you that the veil is some sort of gateway to a spiritual world however I think that spiritual world is heaven. Where your body is no longer alive but your soul lives on. That's what I got out of it anyway. They could bring him back I suppose using ancient magic, however, I don't see that happening. I guess I keep thinking it sounds to Buffy the Vampire Slayer (in the sixth season they raise Buffy back from the dead only to have her return to the Earth from Heaven). However, with that idea even if Sirius is ressurected from the dead he probably will not be the same as we remember him. He will be a little confused and possibly bitter about being back into the world. I mean if he was in heaven with his best friend and ws given reason to believe that in the end everything would turn out okay then really he would probably not even want to come back. However, I do agree that he is somewhere beyond they veil talking with James and Lily. I really hope he is happy their. ~Melanie Sheri C. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 19 17:47:17 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:47:17 -0400 Subject: Book Vs. Movie Sorcerer's Stone Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102028 Okay, Folks, Has JKR addressed a slight inconsistency in the book vs. the movie? It's a really little thing, but the birthday cake Hagrid brings to Harry has "Happy Birthday Harry" on it, spelled correctly in the book (US Edition.) In the US Edition movie, however, it's shown as "Happee" or something like that. Is this supposed to be a jibe at making Hagrid look uneducated or what? Curious minds want to know. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 17:50:01 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:50:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if ... Message-ID: <90.47c476b4.2e05d6c9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102029 In a message dated 06/19/2004 12:12:27 AM Central Daylight Time, jazmyn at furrystuff.com writes: > **In fact, if she [Promfrey] was able to make the potion, > >perhaps Lupin would never have transformed at school**. > As I recall the wolfsbane potion doesn't prevent him from tranforming -- remember Lupin still disappears during the time of the full moon--but rather it makes him harmless. I seem to remember him saying that he curls up on the run in front of his fire. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 18:09:00 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:09:00 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > So... any fallout from any abuse, be it Harry's, Neville's or > > Snape's, is ultimately the fault of THAT person, rather than the > > subterranean layers of hate built up through abuse. > > > Kneasy: > It's not absolutely clear who is the *THAT person* is in > your comment. Please clarify. Snape! If Snape is doing something, under the rules you set forward, then Snape is the one responsible. Not his daddy. Not Sirius and James. Not all the girls who turned him down. Not V-Mort. Not D-Dore. Not the icky students. Snape. > > > darrin: > > Ah, the advocate for the bully downplays the effects of the bullying > > on the victim. > > > > > > darrin: > > Actually, Harry HAD shown flashes, glimpses of promise, and Snape did > not exploit them. Never once do we see TEACHING from Snape. We > > see "close your mind," "master your emotions," "defend yourself" or > essentially, "How come you're not getting it?" > > > > And again, in the debriefing in D-Dore's office, he does not bring up > Harry's part in the mess, which I grant is there, but blames himself> > for thinking Snape, who is responsible for his own actions and must > accept the consequences, could grow up enough to deal with it. > > > Snape choe to give up. Whether he believed he was justified or not > > is irrelevant. He made that choice and for his role, must accept the > > consequences. > > > > > And this is admirable, how? > > > > Kneasy: > Admirable? It's wonderful! It's true to his character. It's what he is. And nothing any of us can do or say will change him. Accept it. What he is is a loathsome berk. I accept that. I've accepted for a long time. Where I disagree with the Snape lovers is that I think that's a lousy, unsympathetic character. > > Suppose by some miracle your witch-hunt (wizard-hunt?) of Snape > succeeded beyond your wildest dreams and everybody on the site no > longer posted contrary views. What would that mean? That you had > imposed your own interpretations onto everyone else. The exact opposite of what this site is about. > Let's see. You tell me to "accept it" because nothing can change, but then you castigate me for trying to impose my views on other people. So accept your view. Squelch mine own. Because that's what the site is about. Not the site I signed up for. Tell you what. You put forward you view. I'll put forward mine. Neither one has to accept the other. How's that? > > darrin: > > I think you might be overestimating the tone of the Snape > > bashers. "Agitated." > > > > I get agitated when my cat is limping, or when I don't get phone > > calls returned at work. This is recreation. > > > > Consider me ironically amused at the Snape defending. > > > > > Kneasy: > That's not the way it reads. It reads close to obsession. Try checking> some of your past posts. So far, I've been told to accept it, but then I'm not expressing the mood of the list, and then I'm called obsessed. Whatever. I'm sure if I responded with the tone your latest post demanded, I'd be called on the carpet by the moderators. So, think what you will, consider me obsessed because I dare to disagree with the Gospel of Snape Being All Good and Pure and Misunderstood and let's call it a day. Darrin From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jun 19 18:19:31 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:19:31 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if ... In-Reply-To: <90.47c476b4.2e05d6c9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 06/19/2004 12:12:27 AM Central Daylight Time, > jazmyn at f... writes: > > > **In fact, if she [Promfrey] was able to make the potion, > > >perhaps Lupin would never have transformed at school**. > > > > As I recall the wolfsbane potion doesn't prevent him from tranforming -- > remember Lupin still disappears during the time of the full moon-- but rather it > makes him harmless. I seem to remember him saying that he curls up on the run > in front of his fire. > I was under the impression that the wolfsbane potion was a recent development, and had not been available when Lupin was a student. Then, the only 'treatment' was to isolate him until the danger was past. It's a tricky potion, and Snape, being very skilled, is entrusted with making it, but I don't think that he is the ONLY one who could do it. That is, if it had been around when Lupin was young, I'm sure Dumbledore would have been able to find someone to make it then. Wanda From tim at marvinhold.com Sat Jun 19 18:25:11 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:25:11 -0000 Subject: Clues to 6&7 in POA film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > So what do we have in the film that is different from the book > that > > seems significant? > > > Potioncat: > The one thing that jumped out at me was the blackbirds/crows/ravens I thought the Crow/Raven on Fudge's head was an omen of death Tim From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 18:32:48 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:32:48 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102033 I'm curious about something. In PoA, we never get to see what Remus changes his orb into in order to make it go away. Nor did we get to see it in OoP. He just turns it into the silvery orb, then it vanished in a puff of smoke. Now, perhaps, since he's been a werewolf for so long, it's just really easy for him to deal with the form his boggart takes, but I'm just curious how he makes it go away. Regardless of if his boggart is really a moon, or a phophecy orb, or a crystal ball, I wonder how he makes it funny. Also, as for Molly in OoP, how would any character turn something so tragic as the death of family members into something comical? And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? Susan :-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 18:37:03 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:37:03 -0000 Subject: Book Vs. Movie Sorcerer's Stone Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Okay, Folks, > > Has JKR addressed a slight inconsistency in the book vs. the movie? It's a > really little thing, but the birthday cake Hagrid brings to Harry has "Happy > Birthday Harry" on it, spelled correctly in the book (US Edition.) In the > US Edition movie, however, it's shown as "Happee" or something like that. > > Is this supposed to be a jibe at making Hagrid look uneducated or what? > > Curious minds want to know. :-) While I have no idea what the answer is, and I hope it's not to make Hagrid seem stupid, Moony in the books is spelled Mooney in PoA movie. Flub? Susan :-) From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 18:51:32 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:51:32 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > ...edited... > > So my question is this : Harry had been having the same dream for > almost a year. ... And one day he sees Sirius being tortured. But it's > still the very same dream ! The same one that he had several months > ago, he's just seen more of it. It's NOT AT ALL like the dream about > Arthur Weasley, which came completely out of nowhere and wasn't > related to anything he'd seen before. So how could Harry believe that > this dream about Sirius was showing him something that was actually > happening ? > > Del Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): Harry has had ample reason over the years to believe that some of his dreams are indeed true. He dreamed about a giant and a flying motorcycle; and it was a memory of a true event. In GoF, his dreams regarding Voldemort, Riddle, and the Riddle mansion are all true. In OoP, his dream of Arthur's attack was true. He realizes his dream of the corridor is real when, in Occlumency lesson, he realizes that the corridor is the one leading to the Dept of Mysteries. He dreams of Voldemort torturing Avery (again, OotP), and in lessons with Snape, Snape confirms that Harry was dreaming of a real place, a place that he otherwise couldn't have and shouldn't have ever been or seen. I think Harry has plenty of reasons, accumulated over years, to believe that he has unique dreams that reflect real events, and most of them are 'realtime' events; they occur as he dreams them. Given that much direct and indirect evidence, I'm not surprise the he believed the Sirius/DoM dream; everything in it was real with the exception of one little detail. Just a thought. Steve From marcuscason at charter.net Sat Jun 19 18:56:26 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:56:26 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D48873.27285.25058E8@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102036 Dreadnought wrote: > It's not nobility - it's self interest. He's a teacher - his > students performance makes him look good, their lack of performance > makes him look bad. > > I somehow don't think Snape would enjoy being criticised by > Dumbledore - and I do think Dumbledore would be likely to do so if > whole Houses started failing a subject. > > I don't think Snape would enjoy having to answer to outraged > parents either. > > A less than perfect teacher, even a cruel teacher, may be tolerated > while he is achieving decent results - but I doubt he would be if > he wasn't even discharging the most basic function of his > profession satisfactorally. > > I've no way of knowing where the lines are for Snape, of course - > but it's certainly possible they are at a point which requires him > to teach. Kyntor replies: I don't think that Snape is a member of the Hogwarts staff because he is a good teacher (indeed not). I believe that he is there so that he can be a "useful spy" to Voldemort when he is reborn. Dumbledore knows that Voldemort was not killed by Harry on Halloween 1981. Dumbledore expects him to resurface later. I think Dumbledore is willing to "make do" with a poor Potions Professor for the benefits that a double agent will give him. Dreadnought wrote: > Let me make it clear in case I haven't been. Snape's treatment of > Harry is, in every instance where it differs from his treatment of > other students, indefensible and reprehensible. But Harry is a > special case, IMHO - Snape's hatred of him is separate to his > treatment of his other students. Kyntor replies: Great! We agree! Snape treats Harry different from the students most of the time. We also see him treat Hermione and Neville differently. Snape's "teaching methods" are not for the benefit of his students. These "methods" are there either for his own twisted pleasure, bias, and/or so he can demonstrate to the world that he hates Gryffindors and Harry Potter. Snape may be a great potions master, but he is a horible teacher. The only reason that I feel he is allowed to continue is because he is useful in other areas (see above reply). Dreadnought wrote: > Well, no, because I don't think treating the Gryffindors in the > same way he treats the Slytherins would necessarily be the most > effective way of teaching the Gryffindors. Kyntor replies: Maybe not, but it can be any worse of a teaching method than the rancor he currently uses on them. Dreadnought wrote: > Effective teaching does *not* involve treating all children in > exactly the same way. That idea is the *single most important > reason* why my own education was such a horrible experience when it > involved methods that many people would find quite attractive. > > When you do that, you always wind up neglecting some children's > educational needs in favour of the others. > > We don't see too much of how Snape teaches the Slytherins - it's > possible the methods he uses with them are good methods (although > it also seems possible he lets them get away with not learning if > they don't want to). But even if they are good methods for the > Slytherins, that would not automatically make them good methods for > the Gryffindors. Kyntor replies: I don't really know that it is a good idea for a teacher to divide a class into two seperate "teaching methods" before even the first class begins. The teacher doesn't know anything about the student's personalities or individual histories the first time he meets them (even with them being divided into one of four houses). The best method would be to begin teaching a class one way, in a clear, fair, and strait-forward presentation of the material. Once the teacher sees students that are having trouble with this method, he/she should meet with the students and give them the individual help they need. Of course this would be completely out of character for Snape. I think that his "teaching methods" show that he does not really care about his student's education. If his students do well in Potions, it is because they really want to learn potions or they need the class for their chosen proffessions, not because of anything Snape has done. Dreadnought wrote: > Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the > Gryffindor's marks are, on average, higher than the Slytherins - > because I think they are generally more likely to work harder, and > they also don't have Crabbe and Goyle. Kyntor replies: I agree with you here. Not because of the different "teaching methods" involved but because of the individual students involved. I believe that this particular Gryffindor class would always outperform this particular Slytherin class no matter what reasonable (no setting children on fire) teaching methods were used. Dreadnought wrote: > I could believe that JKR might have something like what you > describe in mind if if five books, she'd ever given us the > impression that the Muggle world was a better one than the > Wizarding World. > > But for the life of me, offhand, I can't think of a single case. Kyntor replies: No, you are not missing anything. I don't remember JKR overtly saying anything either. However, I do believe that JKR wants us to compare and contrast our own society with the one she describes in her books, and make our own conclusions (this would be a good English paper). Kyntor From lliannanshe at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 19:11:49 2004 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:11:49 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? > > Susan :-) Yes, POA Chp 12 Lupin uses a boggart to teach Harry the Patronous Charm Lliannanshe From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 19:15:30 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:15:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a301c45631$ca65c530$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 102038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? > > Susan :-) Yes, POA Chp 12 Lupin uses a boggart to teach Harry the Patronous Charm Lliannanshe Sherry adds: And in their final exams that same year, they have to face a boggart as part of the defense against the dark arts exam. Sherry G From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 19:16:05 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:16:05 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" > wrote: > > > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? > > > > Susan :-) > > Yes, POA Chp 12 > Lupin uses a boggart to teach Harry the Patronous Charm > > Lliannanshe Yeah, but Harry never has to deal with getting rid of the boggart, just the dementor. He uses the patronus spell to be able to handle the dementors, so I was just wondering if Harry in particular would always use a patronus to get rid of a dementor boggart instead of the riddikulus spell. Susan :-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 19 19:35:23 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:35:23 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > "Right Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: what > would you say s the thing that firhgtens you most in the world?" > Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out. > "Didn't catch that,Neville,sorry," said Professor Lupin cheerfully. > Neville looked around rather wildly, as though begging someone to > help him, then said, in barely more than a wisper, > "Professor Snape" - PoA, p.102, UK edition. > > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity by > the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are not > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G-D for > Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his > fears out in the open. :o) Kneasy: Laughable. He chose Snape because he didn't want the other kids to know about his parents. If he'd said Voldy or Bella everybody would have wanted to know why. Even two years later at St Mungo's he's extremely embarrassed when he's caught visiting his parents. Neville doesn't want to be pitied, but some posters don't see it. In fact, they want to insist on inflicting it on him. > > > Alla: > Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't > witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he just > wishes that they existed. > Kneasy: Your definition of abuse, i.e. Snape, occurs every day at Hogwarts. > Alla: > Do we hear any other teacher ever mentioning them? Could you give me > a cite, where Artur received physical punishment, please. > > Kneasy: GoF chap 31 - Mrs Weasley grinned her eyes twinkling. "Your father and I had been out for a night-time stroll," she said. "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle - he was the caretaker in those days - your father's still got the marks." > Alla: > I already addressed this issue in a different post. I most certainly > don't want phantasy to be real, but many things in it still has to > ring at least emotional truth to me. > Kneasy: Why complain when it does? Isn't that one of the definitions of good writing? To be touched by a tale and then to complain because of it seems very odd IMO. I suggest that you try something less emotionally demanding if it's going to upset you that much. > Alla: Kneasy, how could you divide one from another? Students do not > know Snape as aperson. They only know him as a teacher. That's the > only way he can demand respect from them - as a teacher. > > Kneasy: That's exactly what he is demanding. He has no interest in personal relationships, understanding, bonding or any of the other sociological crap foisted onto society by emotional cripples or do-good frauds hyping a new pop psychology paperback. He is a senior teacher, he demands the respect due to one. Nothing else. There's a modern fashion that teachers can be more than that, they can be pals, confidants, buddies. Not in Hogwarts, thank God. Traditional dividing lines are maintained. Everybody knows exactly where they stand. No misunderstandings as to who's in charge, no tears because "I thought he liked me!" when discipline is belatedly enforced. Hogwarts is formal for the most part, Even Lupin is referred to as 'Professor'. Since Snape also glories in that title why shouldn't he be referred to as such? It is an *earned* title and Harry is being deliberately disrespectful by omitting it. > > > Kneasy: > > Suppose by some miracle your witch-hunt (wizard-hunt?) of Snape > > succeeded beyond your wildest dreams and everybody on the site no > > longer posted contrary views. What would that mean? That you had > > imposed your own interpretations onto everyone else. The exact > opposite > > of what this site is about. > > > > > Alla: ????????? > Kneasy: Exactly. I've seen posts where Slytherins have been compared to the KKK, to the Nazis and name calling as equivalent to, or likely to lead to, another Holocaust. Plain silly. And disrespectful to those who survived the reality. And I shall continue to say so. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 19:37:09 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:37:09 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" > > wrote: > > > > > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? > > > > > > Susan :-) > > > > Yes, POA Chp 12 > > Lupin uses a boggart to teach Harry the Patronous Charm > > > > Lliannanshe > > Yeah, but Harry never has to deal with getting rid of the boggart, > just the dementor. He uses the patronus spell to be able to handle > the dementors, so I was just wondering if Harry in particular would > always use a patronus to get rid of a dementor boggart instead of the > riddikulus spell. > Susan :-) The Third Task, GoF... ""Hang on!" he shouted, advancing in the wake of his silver Patronus, "You're a boggart! Riddikulus!" There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke. " Jason From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 19:39:57 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:39:57 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102042 > Kneasy: > Exactly. I've seen posts where Slytherins have been compared to the KKK, > to the Nazis and name calling as equivalent to, or likely to lead to, another > Holocaust. > Plain silly. And disrespectful to those who survived the reality. > And I shall continue to say so. Silly, eh? Calling for the extermination of an entire race? Using hoods to do their dirty work? Casually dropping racial slurs? Conspiring in the Legislature/Parliament to strike down laws giving a race more rights? If the hood fits, wear it. Tell me, if the majority of the Slytherins we've seen are really just fictional characters and we can't do anything about JKR's characterization, why are you so obsessed with defending racists at best and genocidal madmen at worst? Because it really does read like an obsession. :) Darrin From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 19:58:31 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:58:31 -0000 Subject: Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: <000e01c44c29$35415260$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102043 I haven't been able to tune in lately, so I apologize in advance for the belated response to this! And please forgive a post about a nit- picky topic! But I've always wondered why JKR, who clearly spends quite a bit of time considering details, chose to give characters nicknames for given names. I'm thinking of Harry, but primarily of Percy Weasley. We know that Harry's complete name is Harry James Potter, and I can't remember Percy's middle name, but I believe he provides his complete name in OotP (alas, I'm bookless). I remember thinking it odd that the Weasley's did not name Percy "Percival." My mother-in-law was a professor of nursing. One of the positions she held before she began teaching was in pediatrics at a rural hospital. Here, she was known (whether she should have done this or not) to steer people away from giving nicknames for given names. For example, she would recommend that the proud new parents not name their child Bubba, but name him something like Robert or John and *call* him Bubba. She reasoned to the parents, what if he grows up to be a lawyer or a senator? It seems to me that Percy would be the type of person to resent not being given the complete "Percival," especially considering his ambitions. Wouldn't Percy consider his own name to be "common" just as Petunia considers Harry's to be? Am I just thinking too much about this?? BTW, isn't Molly a nickname for Mary? Or is she another nickname-for- name character? Thanks for letting me finally get this out of my system!! From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 12:41:01 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:41:01 -0400 Subject: Portraits References: <1087412144.24151.57203.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <01b301c455fa$ae195fe0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102044 >Jacqui: In order for the portrait to be "charmed" with an >animation spell, does the person the picture is of need to be >alive? If not, could Harry have a picture of his parents painted >and still have the same effect? I am leaning towards the first. Christina: You mean alive at the time the portrait is painted? I would agree with that. But we know that the portrait stays "alive" even after the real person is gone, like Mrs. Black's portrait and Phineas Nigellus in DD's office (who I felt really sorry for when he found out about Sirius' death). I wonder how the portraits take on their subject's personality, though. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From bhaynes3 at columbus.rr.com Sat Jun 19 14:38:11 2004 From: bhaynes3 at columbus.rr.com (dellawhite515) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:38:11 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: <40D42F1A.7060307@rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? dellawhite515: If you haven't seen it,there is a poll listed as "Sirius Black's Death Poll" in the poll section of HP for Grownups.There are a number of interesting possibilities regarding Sirius' ultimate fate. dellawhite515 From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 17:52:15 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:52:15 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D368DF.3030703@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102046 >>>>delwynmarch wrote: I, Del, wrote : Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something about Snape's classes.<<<< >>>Darrin replied : You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we won't go!"<<< >>Del replies : Actually, they did do it with Umbridge. We are told that entire classes started using the Skiving Snackboxes to skip her lessons. But we don't hear anything like that about Potions. And I don't think that's just because they are all too petrified by fear to think of it :-)<< >julie w wrote: I think that is more because they know they are receiving important knowledge, no matter how much of a prat Snape is, in Potions, whereas in Umbridge's class the kids knew it was BS and not going to help them so they were not willing to put up with her.< Stefanie replies: I think the main thing to notice in the different reactions to Snape and Umbridge from the students is that one teacher has Dumbledore's express appointment to be teaching at Hogwarts, while the other has been appointed by Fudge. If the students are less than militant in their response to Snape (in contrast to their reaction to Umbridge) it's more out of respect to Dumbledore than for any kind of affinity for their Potions Master. To address Pippin's question of whether we can just chalk up Snape's behavior to an abuseful past...I find it hard to say either way. We have an obvious example of an abuseful past in Harry, and while we can see his moral fiber when he spares Peter at the Shrieking Shack, he also has just found out that Peter is actually the one responsible for his parent's death. Harry hasn't had time to stew over the implications and far reaching consequenses in the rapidfire occurances at the Shack. Snape, on the other hand, for better or for worse has had years to stew over his grudge and let it fester. I do not offer this as an excuse for his actions. In all honesty, I'm with Harry in not completely trusting Snape (I won't rehash: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100688 if you're interested) I still stick by my theory that Snape is only at Hogwarts to be protected after Dumbledore reveals him to be a spy. Whether you like Snape, or hate him, or feel any shade of emotion between, he *is* a knowledgable man, no doubt, but a godawful teacher. I seems obvious that he doesn't want to be teaching children, and I really can't see him making that a career choice (unless he had no other...). He's been teaching for 14 years (by OotP) which would align the start of his teaching career at the time of Voldemort's fall. If this is the case -- I can see why even being where he is would be a thorn in Snape's side. Imagine knowing that you were tethered to a place where you didn't want to be, doing something you didn't want to do day in and day out. While I still think that if Snape were to have had an abusive childhood (and we have no real canon proof of this, unlike the proof we have of Harry's abuse) he would be dwelling on other more painful things than James (remember, the title "Snape's Worst Memory" is the chapter title, nothing actually stated in the text), if he were stuck at Hogwarts being protected, then seeing Harry in 10 years would be like a jolt back to the reason he was "stuck" in the first place. I say this as a possible reason, however immature I believe it could be. I guess I'm one of those "Snape Bashers" in question -- but I am appalled by the "it felt good for him to antagonize, so why shouldn't he do it" sentiments I've seen offered. If that were the case, why have morality in the first place? When we choose to do good, more often than not, we're battling something inside of us that wants to derive instant pleasure out of doing something "bad." If "if it feels good, do it" is an excuse for Snape, then half of our laws in existance should in respects be moot. Stefanie, who still can't see the line Snape has clearly drawn that his vindictiveness will not cross. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 18:10:18 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:10:18 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" >>> wrote: He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, and seems to prefer darkness and cruelty. And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force? <<< >>Kneasy: OK, that's the basic rules (or some of them) that I live by. How do they impinge on Snape? What effect have his actions had? Any that are significant? Any effect at all? He passes snide comments. So what? What are their effects? Minimal. He throws Harry out of the Occlumency teaching. With what effect? Not much, Harry wasn't going to learn anyway. Harry had already decided not to co-operate. Any action by Snape was icing on the cake - it just gave Harry *his* excuses - "It's all Snape's fault!" Wrong. Does not compute. << Stefanie: I have a theory about Snape's possible actions in the past, but a canonical action that you didn't discuss is Snape's actions in the Shrieking Shack in PoA. Snape had bound Lupin and was brandishing a wand with "Snape pointed his wand straight between Black's eyes. 'Give me a reason,' he whispered. 'Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will.'" (PoA 19) In essence he incapacitated Lupin and was threatening (possibly lethally) Sirius. And if Harry and Hermione hadn't used the Time Turner to stem the consequenses of his actions? Sirius would've been kissed and Lupin may've either been terminated as a rogue werewolf or kissed as well. Snape wanted that to happen ("Two more for Azkaban tonight" "Vengeance is very sweet" "They'll be very pleased to see you, Black... pleased enough to give you a little kiss" "I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the dementors will have a kiss for him too" [PoA 19]) Snape knew nothing about the Time Turner thwarting these plans -- as far as he knew, Lupin and Sirius would be "dealt with" with consequenses he was prepared to accept. Even though these didn't come to pass, Snape voiced them all. He had thought about them. He thought the were going to happen and was pleased with the thought. Taking two lives into his own hands to end them? Is this excusable as "dark leanings" within his rights? We hardly exuse Voldemort for them. Stefanie From lisa at lau13.de Sat Jun 19 18:58:06 2004 From: lisa at lau13.de (Ute John) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:58:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boggarts & Riddikulus References: Message-ID: <133601c4562f$5fe1ed30$152ca8c0@TUTEN> No: HPFGUIDX 102048 Susan: > > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? Susan, Harry is using the boggart to practice on his patronus (remember Lupin found a boggart in Filches cabinet and brought it to Harry for practice). He also (in GoF) encounters a boggart in the maze - so, yes, he encountered boggarts more than once. Ute (a new German member, who finally bought all the books in English since so many meanings/ideas/puns etc are totally lost in the German edition) From bburkett at uiuc.edu Sat Jun 19 19:32:34 2004 From: bburkett at uiuc.edu (hopping_hessien) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:32:34 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <40D46E8A.1000609@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > That's interesting, because I was reading Weasleys as an impoverished > nobility. > The only thing I can base this feeling on is, strangely, Malfoys attitude. > Their animosity (Lucius to Arthur, Draco to Ron) is the sort of > animosity you display to an equal. I agree. Since they Weasleys are a pure-blood family (and pure bloods seem to be the nobility of the Wizarding World) the Malfoys no doubt see them as traitors to their class. I'm an American, but from what I've read of (granted, Victorian) British society, class betrayal was a very serious issue. Bobbi (aka hopping hessien) From ljamal at ravelution.net Sat Jun 19 19:37:22 2004 From: ljamal at ravelution.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?L._J=E1mal_Walton?=) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:37:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus References: Message-ID: <01f501c45634$da720490$8a871a45@homebase.longbox.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102050 Susan asked: And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? Lliannanshe responded: Yes, POA Chp 12 Lupin uses a boggart to teach Harry the Patronous Charm Susan said: > Yeah, but Harry never has to deal with getting rid of the boggart, > just the dementor. He uses the patronus spell to be able to handle > the dementors, so I was just wondering if Harry in particular would > always use a patronus to get rid of a dementor boggart instead of the > riddikulus spell. In GOF, Harry encounters a dementor/boggart in the maze. He uses the Patronus but realized it was a boggart and followed with Riddikulus. Jamal (now going back into lurk mode) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 20:36:30 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:36:30 -0000 Subject: Class issues in names was Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > Geoff: > > Using one of my now standard openings(!), can I direct you to... > > > > There was a short set of posts on this very topic quite > recently.They > > were messages: 10207-208-212-218-240-253 which I think you will > find > > of interest. MaggieB: > Thank you for setting me straight. I feel like a heel for repeating > a topic so recently discussed. My only excuse is that I just came > back to the group a few days ago. I would like to point out, however > that a zero was left out of the message numbers. The first one was > 100207. Geoff: Blast! I keep doing that myself when I'm tracking a message. I can't get on with these new-fangled six-digit numbers. Now when I was a boy...... Yep, seriously, they are 100207 etc. Shall I iron my hands /again/ or not? From alison.williams at virgin.net Sat Jun 19 20:43:36 2004 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:43:36 +0100 Subject: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/ In-Reply-To: <1087552468.10095.37639.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40C8E36C000FF704@n082.sc1.cp.net> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) No: HPFGUIDX 102052 Shaun Hately wrote - >This is a school where 11 year old children are sent into a forest in the >middle of the night to hunt something that is killing unicorns, and which a >half giant arms himself against, as a form of *detention*. This is a school >where children engage in a sport at high speed and altitude, which we have >seen result in some very impressive injuries. This is a school where when >an ancient monster is roaming the corridors petrifying students, classes >continue virtually as normal. This is a school where the trees are capable >of killing you, and which spent a year guarded by creatures that could suck >out your soul. A school where an interschool sports involves dodging dragon >breath! -- What an excellent point! Interesting enough to drag me out of lurkdom for a moment. It made me think again about something that has been bothering me for quite a while, which is how people *will* try to judge the Wizarding World by the standards of our own modern materialist, litigious, health and safety certified, muggle world. The WW is much more physically dangerous than ours even in everyday life, without the extra danger posed by Voldemort. It is full of 'interesting' creatures, powerful spells and potions, dangerous sports and accepts the carrying of potentially lethal weapons by everyone including children. Of course they have powerful antidotes, repair, healing and defensive spells as well and so, presumably, have developed a rather different psychology with regard to risk and danger. An attitude that might look, from our perspective, like utter recklessness. This has helped me understand some incidents that seem to be examples of such recklessness. For example, seeing the life threatening 'prank' played by the Marauders on Snape in this context puts it in a different light. Snape, presumably, knowing the WW's attitude to physical danger knew very well that he wouldn't have got far if he'd rushed off to the Wizengamot to claim damages and probably isn't entirely surprised to find that Dumbledore expects him to get over it. Injury or death is taken as something of an occupational hazard for wizards and so Sirius and Remus can derisively say to Peter at the end of PoA, "You should have died!", as if that should have been totally obvious to anyone, with not a hint or shred of sympathy for his weakness in fear of Voldemort's cruelty. Molly may coddle children but Dumbledore positively incites them to interfere in physically dangerous business from the Philosopher's Stone onward. He also reinforces this by rewarding them for doing so! He expects his young charges to learn, not just their lessons, but also to cope with the dangers that they will face in the real world. Umbridge in OotP, of course, takes the opposite and much more modern muggle line of 'protecting' her students by allowing them only Defence Against the Dark Arts theory. So is this different view of physical risk all there is to it, or is there more? I think there is more. In the WW not only is physical danger ever-present and approached somewhat recklessly, it is also seen by the wisest of characters as not the most serious of concerns. Dumbledore tells Voldemort in OotP that he is wrong to think that death is the worst that can happen, he even spoke of it in rather positive terms at the end of Philosophers Stone as "the next great adventure", for those who are prepared for it at any rate. The dementors kiss is described as worse than death. Nearly Headless Nick in OotP speaks of death rather wistfully as something he has missed out on through fear and clinging to a shadow of life. What is seen in the WW as the really serious danger, to be avoided at all costs, is not physical harm or death but a distinctly spiritual form of harm - the loss of hope, of self-respect and of love for others. The greatest threat for a wise wizard seems to be not to the body but to the immortal soul, and very often the choice is a direct one. If only the book-burning type of Christian had eyes to see and ears to hear...! Or am I making all this up just to make myself feel better about Sirius? Alison From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 21:24:47 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:24:47 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102053 Wanda Sherratt said: >When right after "Snape's Worst Memory," Harry is thinking over how >his mother seemed to hate his father, he wonders if James somehow >forced Lily into marriage. Maybe there's something to that: perhaps >theirs wasn't a love-match, but more of a political marriage, to >produce this miracle child who would fulfill prophecies and defeat >Voldemort. I don't think so, for the following reasons: 1) Thanks to Hagrid, Harry has pictures of his parents' wedding. In those pictures, if I recall, Lily is described as "glowing with happiness." 2) As others have suggested, Lily's dialogue during the Upside-Down-Snape scene suggest that she'd been paying attention to him for some time, even if she wouldn't admit it, especially to him. 3) I'm not sure, but I think the first prophecy took place while both Lily and Alice Longbottom were already pregnant. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/ From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:27:57 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:27:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's References: Message-ID: <007901c45644$4b44a010$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102054 Sorry I'm not including any previous posts, but I have a general comment/question pertaining to the discussion as a whole. Let's say that F&G were the sons of one of the Prewett brothers rather than Molly's and Arthur's. Sure, it would make sense to me for Molly and Arthur to take in their orphaned nephews and raise them as their own except... What happened to their biological mother, then? Moody made no mention of either one of the brothers being married and it seems to me that they were married and their wives died as well, he'd mention it. Alina. P.S. BTW, it's Weasleys and Prewetts without an apostrophe ^^ From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:33:23 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:33:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some questions/comments about GoF References: Message-ID: <009301c45645$0d40cfe0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102055 > Is there any connection between the well known phrase "Abra Kadabra" and the > Avada Kedavra in the book. Is this JKR's way of taking a popular "magical" > phrase and adding some meaning to it? > Barbara I'm just going to copy/paste an article from the Encyclopedia Mythica. The HP Lexicon has the same information. Abracadabra: A Cabbalistic charm that was supposed to get rid of any illness if inscribed on an amulet. Its exact meaning is not clear, but there are several posibilities: the word is formed of the first few letters of the Phoenician alphabet (A-Bra-Ca-Dabra) or it is the name of an old disease demon. It could also be derived from the Aramaic avada kedavra, meaning "may the thing be destroyed", or from "abra kadibra" which is translated as "it will be made like it is said." From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Jun 19 21:34:29 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:34:29 -0000 Subject: Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102056 "karenoc1" wrote: SNIP > We know that Harry's complete name is Harry James > Potter, and I can't remember Percy's middle name, but I believe he > provides his complete name in OotP (alas, I'm bookless). I remember > thinking it odd that the Weasley's did not name Percy "Percival." SNIP > It seems to me that Percy would be the type of person to resent not > being given the complete "Percival," especially considering his > ambitions. Wouldn't Percy consider his own name to be "common" just > as Petunia considers Harry's to be? Am I just thinking too much > about this?? ----------- Percy's full name is "Percival Ignatious Weasley", so I am entirely confused why you think he's *not* Percival...... You can find this in the "The Hearing" chapter in OP. Arya From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:36:04 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:36:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... References: Message-ID: <00a001c45645$6ccea270$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102057 > Lynx412: > And, in fact, when Lupin was in school, Pomfrey was > in charge of his condition. job to provide Lupin with his potion and security, as she had in > the past? > > Kneazelkid: > Pomfrey took Lupin to the Willow so he could "transform", not to > give him potion. In fact, if she was able to make the potion, > perhaps Lupin would never have transformed at school. I think it > seems likely that Snape, being a skilled potion maker, can make the > potion, while Pomfrey cannot. Alina: I think it would make sense for Pomfrey to be the one responsible for administering the potion to Lupin as well, but it would still be Snape who'd be making it, after all, I don't think Mme Pomfrey creates things like Skele-Gro either, just stocks up on them and knows what to give to whom. Snape would whip up batches of Wolfsbane and deliver them to Pomfrey instead of Lupin and I also think she'd be perfect at making sure that he drinks it no matter what. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:38:20 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:38:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown) References: Message-ID: <00aa01c45645$be070600$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102058 > Cho and > Cedric appeared to be a steady couple, and the boy she moves onto > after Harry, Roger someone, is also shown dating in Hogsmeade, > snogging at the table. > Leah Actually, Cho moved on from Harry to Michael Corner, Ginny's ex-boyfriend. Roger Davis took Fleur to the dance in GOF and dated an unnamed girl in OOP. He's the captain of the Ravenclaw Quidditch Team, btw. Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:45:20 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:45:20 -0000 Subject: Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102059 > Percy's full name is "Percival Ignatious Weasley", so I am entirely confused why you > think he's *not* Percival...... > > You can find this in the "The Hearing" chapter in OP. > > Arya No, Percy's name as announced during Harry's Trial is "Percy Ignatius Weasley." Percival, however, is present in the chapter, one of DD's middle names. Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 19 21:52:39 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:52:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) References: Message-ID: <002601c45647$be62a8a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102060 From: "karenoc1" > I haven't been able to tune in lately, so I apologize in advance for > the belated response to this! And please forgive a post about a nit- > picky topic! But I've always wondered why JKR, who clearly spends > quite a bit of time considering details, chose to give characters > nicknames for given names. I'm thinking of Harry, but primarily of > Percy Weasley. We know that Harry's complete name is Harry James > Potter, and I can't remember Percy's middle name, but I believe he > provides his complete name in OotP (alas, I'm bookless). I remember > thinking it odd that the Weasley's did not name Percy "Percival." If I remember correctly, Percy is the version of Percival that commoners named their children because they could not give them actual noble names, but wanted something close to them. I'm sure there were messages about this years ago, but I couldn't find one through search, sorry. Basically, I think it's Rowlings' way of pointing out the difference between rich and pureblood families like the Blacks and Malfoys and the poorer families like the Weasleys. Alina. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jun 19 22:09:58 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:09:58 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > Exactly. I've seen posts where Slytherins have been compared to the > KKK, > > to the Nazis and name calling as equivalent to, or likely to lead > to, another > > Holocaust. > > Plain silly. And disrespectful to those who survived the reality. > > And I shall continue to say so. > Darrin: > Silly, eh? > > Calling for the extermination of an entire race? > > Using hoods to do their dirty work? > > Casually dropping racial slurs? > > Conspiring in the Legislature/Parliament to strike down laws giving a > race more rights? > > If the hood fits, wear it. > > Tell me, if the majority of the Slytherins we've seen are really just > fictional characters and we can't do anything about JKR's > characterization, why are you so obsessed with defending racists at > best and genocidal madmen at worst? > > Because it really does read like an obsession. :) > > Darrin Just can't stay away can you, despite your promises. Well, since it was one of your posts that compared Slytherins to the KKK, perhaps you'd like to expand on your theory. Tell us how many people the kids of Slytherin House have killed, tortured and driven from their homes. Not DEs, 'cos they're not exclusively Slytherin, (Peter, remember?). Perhaps they sneak out at Hogsmead weekends and terrorise neighbourhoods, 12 year old proto-wizards swigging Butterbeer and bragging about how they're going to stop Hermione from attending Hogwarts by blowing up the train tracks. And perhaps they do nothing of the kind. Perhaps they indulge in a little light bullying and name-calling. Just as canon tells us they do. Who's calling for the extermination of a race? The Slytherins? Quote canon please. Draco has revelled in the idea of mudblood deaths, but who takes much notice of him? Nobody, unless his dad buys them a racing broom. Hoods? What hoods? You think the DEs are *subordinate* to the kids in Slytherin House? That the kids issue contracts on enemies from the comfort of their common-room and their heavies go out and AK someone for them? What an original idea! Why didn't JKR think of that? What? You didn't mean that? But you claim Slytherin are the bane of mankind, racists, murderers, evil personified. Make your mind up, for Heavens sake. Racial slurs? What race? Mudbloods/Muggles aren't a race any more than Metamorphagi are a race. You probably missed it, but Admin curtailed discussions on this aspect last year; too many people had fixed, intransigent opinions and the discussion degenerated into name-calling on the site. So I'll restrain myself from expounding on the sociological divisions in the Potterverse, with particular reference to the aggressive/defensive posture of minorities (so-called purebloods) that perceive themselves as being threatened by the majority, even when it ain't so. Fixing the Legislature - ah! Muggle hunting. That what you mean? So is it legal, this Muggle-hunting? No? Oh, dear, there goes that point into the dustbin of failed arguments. Or is it Goblins you're on about? The ones that almost nobody really trusts and many fear could join Voldy? Defending racists and genocidal madmen - sorry, don't recognise that description. Re-phrase it to "Willing to counter gross exaggeration, distortion of canon, deliberately provocative phraseology, lack of a sense of proportion and self-appointed arbiters of what is or is not acceptable" and I might respond. Or I might not. I prefer a little variety to my posts, something yours seem to lack. They all seem to be on the same subject, endlessly repeating the same mantra. Now what was the definition of 'obsessional', again? Kneasy From bard7696 at aol.com Sat Jun 19 23:52:57 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 23:52:57 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102062 > > Darrin: > > Silly, eh? > > > > Calling for the extermination of an entire race? > > > > Using hoods to do their dirty work? > > > > Casually dropping racial slurs? > > > > Conspiring in the Legislature/Parliament to strike down laws giving a > > race more rights? > > > > If the hood fits, wear it. > > > > Tell me, if the majority of the Slytherins we've seen are really just > > fictional characters and we can't do anything about JKR's > > characterization, why are you so obsessed with defending racists at > > best and genocidal madmen at worst? > > > > Because it really does read like an obsession. :) > > > > Darrin > > Just can't stay away can you, despite your promises. Not so long as you're calling other peoples' ideas and values silly. > Well, since it was one of your posts that compared Slytherins to the KKK, perhaps you'd like to expand on your theory. The overwhelming majority of the DEs are Slytherin. The DEs play around in hoods, torture Muggles for sport, casually drop the word mudblood, which is an obvious parallel to the "N" word and use their political power to keep minorities down. The parallels, both in actions, rituals, physical appearance and culture, are obvious. > Tell us how many people the kids of Slytherin House have killed, tortured and driven from their homes. Not DEs, 'cos they're not exclusively Slytherin, > (Peter, remember?). Perhaps they sneak out at Hogsmead weekends and > terrorise neighbourhoods, 12 year old proto-wizards swigging Butterbeer and bragging about how they're going to stop Hermione from attending Hogwarts by blowing up the train tracks. > Give them time. They'll get there. > Perhaps they indulge in a little light bullying and name-calling. > Just as canon tells us they do. "Light" bullying. Now we have degrees of it. Is there no argument you won't resort to in order to mitigate how loathsome the Slytherins are? Tell me, what is "heavy" bullying? > Racial slurs? What race? Mudbloods/Muggles aren't a race any more than Metamorphagi are a race. You probably missed it, but Admin curtailed discussions on this aspect last year; too many people had fixed, intransigent opinions and the discussion degenerated into name- calling on the site. I suspect you were knee-deep in it if it degenerated into name- calling, but I will carry on. Muggle-borns ARE a separate race or bloodline. The Slytherins obviously think so, but even the Gryffindors and others think so. Hagrid: "You don't have to be pureblood." Ron: "We intermarried long ago." The difference is, like most folks with all their functioning chromosomes, the Weasleys don't see any problem with Muggle-borns having the same rights as pureblood wizards. > > Fixing the Legislature - ah! Muggle hunting. That what you mean? > So is it legal, this Muggle-hunting? No? Oh, dear, there goes that point into the dustbin of failed arguments. Lucius Malfoy tried to manipulate events so that Arthur Weasley and his Muggle-protection bill failed. I suggest re-reading Chamber of Secrets if you want more information. Or perhaps your copy is in the dustbin. > Defending racists and genocidal madmen - sorry, don't recognise that description. Those that defend such rarely do. > Or I might not. > I prefer a little variety to my posts, something yours seem to lack. > They all seem to be on the same subject, endlessly repeating the same mantra. Now what was the definition of 'obsessional', again? Well, there is so little time to post and so much of what you are posting on this topic. I'll be happy to take a break if you'd stop calling other people's ideas silly. Until then, I suppose we'll just be obsessed together. Darrin From elfundeb at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 23:57:39 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 23:57:39 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102063 Stefanie: I have a theory about Snape's possible actions in the > past, but a canonical action that you didn't discuss is Snape's > actions in the Shrieking Shack in PoA. Snape had bound Lupin and was > brandishing a wand with > "Snape pointed his wand straight between Black's eyes. > 'Give me a reason,' he whispered. 'Give me a reason to do it, and I > swear I will.'" (PoA 19) > > In essence he incapacitated Lupin and was threatening (possibly > lethally) Sirius. And if Harry and Hermione hadn't used the Time > Turner to stem the consequenses of his actions? Sirius would've been > kissed and Lupin may've either been terminated as a rogue werewolf > or kissed as well. Snape wanted that to happen ("Two more for > Azkaban tonight" "Vengeance is very sweet" "They'll be very pleased > to see you, Black... pleased enough to give you a little kiss" "I'll > drag the werewolf. Perhaps the dementors will have a kiss for him > too" [PoA 19]) > > Snape knew nothing about the Time Turner thwarting these plans -- as > far as he knew, Lupin and Sirius would be "dealt with" with > consequenses he was prepared to accept. Even though these didn't > come to pass, Snape voiced them all. He had thought about them. He > thought the were going to happen and was pleased with the thought. > > Taking two lives into his own hands to end them? Is this excusable > as "dark leanings" within his rights? We hardly exuse Voldemort for > them. Did Snape actually take anyone's life into his own hands? He threatened Sirius and Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, but there's no canon evidence that he would have carried out those threats. What he actually does is to ask Sirius to "Give me a reason" to do him in. It's clear that what he intends to do is to take Lupin and Sirius up to the castle and turn them over to the authorities. And since Snape doesn't have all the information the reader has, it is exactly the right thing to do. Sirius *is* a fugitive, there's a manhunt out there for him, and Snape has absolutely no evidence that Sirius is innocent, and the circumstantial evidence suggests that Lupin is in cahoots with him. He does taunt Sirius about the Dementor's kiss, but that's just rubbing it in their faces that he's finally caught them up to something for which they will be richly punished. Sirius would have done exactly the same things if their positions had been reversed. Then, later, when Snape regains consciousness and there are no witnesses, he has his golden opportunity to do what he will with Sirius. But what did he do? "He was conjuring stretchers and lifting the limp forms of Harry, Hermione, and Black onto them. A fourth stretcher, no doubt bearing Ron, was already floating at his side. Then, wand held out in front of him, he moved them away toward the castle." He did exactly the right thing, I think. At least based on the evidence he had before him. Debbie From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sat Jun 19 16:55:31 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:55:31 -0000 Subject: Hagrid cleared, too late to learn magic? In-Reply-To: <02e101c455be$e9ad9170$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102064 --- Littlekat: > I have some thoughts about Hagrid that I shall discuss here. > Perhaps Hagrid knows more(magic) than we think he knows and > perhaps he hides his knowledge... JKR has said that Hagrid does know more magic that he lets on. "mcmaxslb" From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sat Jun 19 17:52:12 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:52:12 -0000 Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <7A938A1A-C1FC-11D8-9317-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102065 Barb Roberts: > Anyway she likes Ron who is still clueless, so she might as well > spend her time studying. Hermione is not just filling her days with studying waiting for Ron to notice her. Ron, with that ugly jealous tantrum at the Yule Ball made it clear that he has feeling for her and if Hermione wanted, she could have him. The thing is Hermione doesn't have romantic feelings for Ron. There is nothing in the books, either obvious and/or implied, that Hermione has feeling for Ron beyond friendship.As a matter of fact if it wasn't for Harry they wouldn't even be friends. If IF! Hermione has any feelings for anybody it's Harry. Is Harry clueless? More overwhelmed with the fight to the death with Voldemort. So sorry but Hermione has no feelings for Ron. Besides I'm thinking that in the end the Trio will each go their separate ways. McMax From cnidaria at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 20:57:15 2004 From: cnidaria at gmail.com (starkyld) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:57:15 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102066 > > Alla: > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are not > > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. > Kneasy: > Laughable. > He chose Snape because he didn't want the other kids to know about > his parents. > If he'd said Voldy or Bella everybody would have wanted to know why. I must respectfully disagree. Neville didn't actually get any choice as to what form his boggart would take. He did say that Snape scared him more than anything else in the world, to be sure, but it wasn't his statement that determined the boggart's form. It was the fear itself. Had Neville feared Voldemort or Bellatrix more, then the boggart would have taken that form instead, regardless of what he'd said in front of his classmates. Not that Neville was in any way inclined to tell his classmates about his family background, mind you... --Bria (who is new and hoping that she just properly followed posting protocol) From veiledmyst at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 21:27:22 2004 From: veiledmyst at comcast.net (veiledmyst) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:27:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102067 Stefanie wrote: > Snape knew nothing about the Time Turner thwarting these plans -- > as far as he knew, Lupin and Sirius would be "dealt with" with > consequenses he was prepared to accept. Even though these didn't > come to pass, Snape voiced them all. He had thought about them. He > thought the were going to happen and was pleased with the thought. > > Taking two lives into his own hands to end them? Is this excusable > as "dark leanings" within his rights? We hardly exuse Voldemort > for them. But everyone, with the possible exception of Dumbledore (I sometimes wonder about him, and not in a good way), did think Sirius was guilty till the very end. Even Lupin. The dementers were there for that very reason. So I hardly see Snape as in the wrong. If Sirius, with Lupin helping him, was who everyone thout he was capable of what they thought he had done, why would Snape trust him not to have messed with kids minds? Why should he think to listen to them? They are not magically powerful enough to stop every bit of magic that could be done to them when they do not even know every bit of magic, dark or not, that there is. They might not know what to even look for. In Snape's mind both Sirius and Lupin ARE dangerous. Very dangerous. I don't think his actions are in the least bit wrong here. Sure, he is also personally happy if they get what he thinks they deserve, that is icing on his cake. And I really don't get the time turning aspect of your message. The kids did not fix anything that had to do with Snapes actions, IMO, but with the problems presented by the full moon, lack of Lupin taking his potion and Pettigrew. Snape had been knocked out before he could do anything that affected them. veiledmyst From Snarryfan at aol.com Sat Jun 19 21:31:55 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:31:55 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102068 > Stefanie: [snip POA/Snape/Sirius/Lupin and what Snape said in the shack] > Even though these didn't > come to pass, Snape voiced them all. He had thought about them. He > thought the were going to happen and was pleased with the thought. Christelle: And Harry thought to Crucio Snape. And I'm sure that he would have be happy if he saw it. p263: "Harry sat there staring at Snape as the lesson began, picturing horrific things happening to him...if only he knew how to do the Cruciatus curse...he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, jerking and twitching..." "Harry imagined picking up his cauldron, and sprinting to the front of the class, and bringing it down on Snape's greasy head_" Stefanie: > Taking two lives into his own hands to end them? Is this excusable > as "dark leanings" within his rights? We hardly exuse Voldemort for > them. But we excuse Harry for every dark thought. And about 'taking two lives', what do you think another wizard who never knew Sirius and Lupin would have done? say Tom, the inn keeper. He burst in a room where there are a werewolf, and a convinced and very dangerous murderer and three children. And they said that the real danger comes from a rat. No difficult to think that the teens are under the Confondus Charm. Black is wanted. Do you think that he'll say 'hey why not, you seem like a nice guy!'? And I wanted to add something about the Snape!lovers and defender. We know that he's not the nicer of the world. It exists worse. He made some good. Snape is 90% bastard, and 10% salvage and Snapish 'kindness'. We know it. But we look the 10%. We let him a chance for this 10%. Is it so bad? Does he deserve the death because he's not the best teacher? Correct me if I wrong but if DD support him, could it be because he see this 10% too? I think Hagrid is dangerous for the children, but I'm not here saying 'hey, I hope he'll pay his mistakes!' and Binns is in way worst than Snape. They learn with Snape. they don't like it, but they learn. Binns bored his students to sleep since before his death. And noone begin a campaign to replace him with a competent teacher. Christelle From Snarryfan at aol.com Sat Jun 19 21:48:22 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:48:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102069 > > Kneasy: > > And sometimes it isn't. > > But it must be acceptable at Hogwarts - it happens almost every > > day. They do things differently there; within living memory > > (Filch) students were hung up, screaming, in the dungeons, Arthur > > received an unspecified but severe physical punishment for being > > out after hours with Molly. Then, > Alla: > Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't > witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he > just wishes that they existed. > > Do we hear any other teacher ever mentioning them? Could you give > me a cite, where Artur received physical punishment, please. Some already answered for Filch. I'd love to know how could be describe a detention which consist of letting 11 years-old alone in the Forbidden Forest to search something who could kill a unicorn. But I'm here to the quote for Arthur, page 535 (the Third task, GOF): "Your father and I had been for a night-time stroll," she said. "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle--he was the caretaker in those days-- your father's still got the marks." christelle. From bd-bear at verizon.net Sat Jun 19 21:49:31 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:49:31 -0400 Subject: What if Sirius Hadn't Escaped in POA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102070 I don't usually engage in debates about why such-and-such happened or why this character did this or that, because ultimately the answer is the same in my mind. . . because that's the way JKR wrote it! But now that I have some more information about DD, I was thinking about how things went in POA and how they might have gone better. Bear with me. . . Suppose Sirius, after having seen the Daily Prophet with Peter on it, kept his need for revenge in check and somehow got Fudge to allow DD to visit him (or get word to him that Sirius needed to tell him something). DD goes to Sirius, Sirius tells him that Pettigrew is alive and is Ron's rat, DD calls Ron to his office, requesting (as nonchalantly as possible) that he bring his pet, DD forces Pettigrew to reveal himself and then uses his Leglimens (sorry if I'm not spelling that right) skills to determine that Pettigrew did indeed betray the Potters and Sirius is innocent. In fact, if DD is so all-knowing and all powerful, how come he can't do this more often? I mean, now that I know he has these abilities, I assume he has used this power whenever he has talked to Harry after Harry's been in trouble, and that's why he trusts Harry, because he knows that Harry hasn't lied about the important stuff. Moreover, I would assume that Snape would also use this ability on his students to check if they're lying, but then, I don't get the feeling he WANTS to know that Harry is truthful at the times Snape is accusing him of being otherwise. But then again, I'm only in the beginning of OOTP. While I vaguely remember reading in some of the posts on this list that the ability to do that Leglimens thingy is rare, I don't know if it's frowned upon in the WW as an invasion of privacy. If that's the case, that would explain why it's not done more. Any thoughts? Barbara, who's disappointed that nobody has yet responded to her post "Some comments/questions about GoF" bd-bear From bd-bear at verizon.net Sat Jun 19 21:54:24 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:54:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102071 >>>From: Jason [mailto:shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com] The Third Task, GoF... ""Hang on!" he shouted, advancing in the wake of his silver Patronus, "You're a boggart! Riddikulus!" There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke. "<<< I was going to mention that as well, but I also wanted to ask, the way Lupin taught about fighting the Boggarts, didn't he say that "Riddikulus" changed it into something laughable to the person facing it? Yet when Lupin and Harry say "Riddikulus!" the Boggart just explodes. Am I confused or is this a JKR inconsistency? Guess I'll go check POA to double-check what Lupin taught them. Barbara bd-bear From bd-bear at verizon.net Sat Jun 19 22:02:28 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:02:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: <009301c45645$0d40cfe0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102072 First, I wrote: > Is there any connection between the well known phrase "Abra Kadabra" > and the Avada Kedavra in the book. Is this JKR's way of taking a > popular "magical" phrase and adding some meaning to it? Then Alina wrote: >> I'm just going to copy/paste an article from the Encyclopedia Mythica. The HP Lexicon has the same information. Abracadabra: A Cabbalistic charm that was supposed to get rid of any illness if inscribed on an amulet. Its exact meaning is not clear, but there are several posibilities: the word is formed of the first few letters of the Phoenician alphabet (A-Bra-Ca-Dabra) or it is the name of an old disease demon. It could also be derived from the Aramaic avada kedavra, meaning "may the thing be destroyed", or from "abra kadibra" which is translated as "it will be made like it is said." << Me again: Thanks Alina! I haven't read the HP Lexicon in too much detail and I was wondering if that was coincidental or something JKR intended. Looks like she did her homework and made a very wise choice for that curse. Barbara bd-bear From lisa at lau13.de Sat Jun 19 22:05:50 2004 From: lisa at lau13.de (Ute John) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:05:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's References: <007901c45644$4b44a010$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <14ac01c45649$ad36d630$152ca8c0@TUTEN> No: HPFGUIDX 102073 Alina: > Let's say that F&G were the sons of one of the Prewett brothers rather > than Molly's and Arthur's. Sure, it would make sense to me for Molly > and Arthur to take in their orphaned nephews and raise them as their > own except... What happened to their biological mother, then? Moody > made no mention of either one of the brothers being married and it > seems to me that they were married and their wives died as well, he'd > mention it. It could be that something happened to her before the brothers were killed - like she could have died at the birth of the boys. What I find interesting - in GoF chapter 5 pages 49/50 (UK) Harry meets Charly and Bill for the first time, and JKR describes their looks. "Charlie was built like the twins, shorter and stockier than Percy and Ron, who were both lang and lanky" and later Bill "He was tall ..." So it seems that the twins and Charlie take after their mother (or mothers side of the family), whereas Ron, Percy and Bill take after their father (tall and thin). So what if it is not only F&G, but also Charlie who was taken "in" by Molly and Arthur ? In OofP, when Molly finds out about Ron being Prefect, (page 149) she says :"you could end up benig Head Boy just like Bill and Percy ..." - and she does not mention Charlie. Does anybody remember if Charlie was Prefect as well ? I only remember him being captain of Quidditch team. Ute From veiledmyst at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 22:42:32 2004 From: veiledmyst at comcast.net (veiledmyst) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:42:32 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102074 Susan wrote: > In PoA, we never get to see what Remus changes his orb into in > order to make it go away. Regardless of if his boggart is > really a moon, or a phophecy orb, or a crystal ball, I wonder how > he makes it funny. > > Also, as for Molly in OoP, how would any character turn something > so tragic as the death of family members into something comical? > > And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? IIRC, in the book Lupin changes his moon boggart into a cockroach, but I have no idea why, and in the movie it is changed into a balloon flying with the air coming out. I don't think we know how Harry would use the Riddikulus charm to change the boggart into something humorous. And as for Molly, I suppose she could turn it into an enemy that is lying there dead. But would that really be funny? Depends on the person I suppose. veiledmyst From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 23:19:40 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:19:40 -0400 Subject: Snape's effective? teaching References: <1087425248.22558.59701.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007c01c45653$e5ab4e60$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102075 Lady Macbeth: >An effective teacher doesn't just teach them something that any >of them could learn by reading a book, he (or she) teaches them >how to be a mature and capable person in the world they're >going to be living in as an adult. < Christina: And do adults go to work with their supervisors standing over them insulting everything they do and making snide comments about their character and their family? Remember what Umbridge told Harry - "This is school, Mr. Potter, not real life." That is so true, and the only thing I agree with Umbridge about. I agree that life isn't perfect and rosy and cheerful constantly, but government public schools - and apparently even wizarding schools - are not even remotely like real life. My most effective teacher was one that I was able to disagree with, he treated me as an adult (this was 9th grade English) and gave me an A on my paper even though he disagreed with my POV of my subject. Christina in GA - homeschooling mom of 1 Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sat Jun 19 23:39:36 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:39:36 -0300 (ART) Subject: "next stop, knockturn alley" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040619233936.2026.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102076 --- "A.J." escreveu: --------------------------------- > I was reminded that some people wondered if the ill witch > and other passengers on the Knight Bus might be spying on > or following Harry and/or the Order (in POA and OOTP), when > upon watching the movie I heard "Next Stop, Knockturn Alley" > after Harry was dropped off. Since everyone is wondering on > any relevant clues, thought I'd mention that for those who > were theorizing on the bus's passengers. (and Harry sees Sirius in the crystal ball, calling him from the beyond, hmm.. nah...) Actually, I never thought of the passengers, what I did think was "Knockturn Alley". Let me explain: 1st, in DVD interview, Jo mentions she saying to Kloves about some scene which should not be deleted because it would be related to something in Book VI. I always thought it was the Knockturn Alley scene; in the movie, it seems unnecessary, but it is there anyway. Then Jo says something in Movie III is related to something happening in Book VI. Well, I think I'll have to wait... :) ===== ~Rebeka From firedancerflash at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 00:02:34 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:02:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna Lovegood References: Message-ID: <004d01c45659$e427fb00$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102077 You know what, in her way, Luna is a very classy young lady. I can almost hear the warmth in her voice when she comforts Harry in that end-of-year scene. She has her quirks, and some of them aren't so little, but when you strip all that away for a minute, you find a very brave girl,who, if given the chance, would probably be one of the most loyal and trustworthy friends one could have. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From firedancerflash at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 00:07:32 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:07:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy References: Message-ID: <006601c4565a$95a37760$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102078 I have to agree that all the evidence points to Hermione and Ron, but I still wonder why it wasn't H.-and-H. I guess the easy answer is, it just didn't happen that way, but the question still niggles me. Anyone have any speculation? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From firedancerflash at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 00:14:03 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:14:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid cleared, too late to learn magic? References: <1087345399.8268.73664.m16@yahoogroups.com> <015f01c45597$67603f00$c800000a@crouton> <02e101c455be$e9ad9170$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <009801c4565b$7e7cd760$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102079 I'm inclined to go along with Littlekat's first theory, in which she says that Hagrid knows more magic than we realize. I think it would be sad to think that the older one got, the less likely one could learn magic. My head says that's probably the case, but my heart is going, No, no, let it be theory number one. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 00:27:05 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:27:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c4565d$50fbe810$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 102080 Hi, I'll try to answer a couple of your points, and I hope the elves will forgive me if I don't do this exactly right. It's the first time I've tried to reply to several different points in one of these messages, and it can be a little crazy with my screen reading software. Barbara said Why didn't DD have Harry start Occlumency lessons in GoF? Since Sirius told DD about Harry's scar hurting and his first dream before Harry even mentioned that it happened a second time, shouldn't DD have realized then that there was a connection between VM and Harry that could be dangerous? Sherry now: Well, I don't think Harry said he'd had a dream, just that his scar hurt him. Did he ever actually say he'd had a dream? Barbara Why are only certain people ghosts, for example, why aren't Lily and James ghosts? Also, are the ghosts we see at Hogwarts former Wizards? Sherry again: I believe NHN tries to explain this to Harry at the end of OOTP, saying that the people who become ghosts are those who are afraid to die. He tells Harry that Sirius wouldn't become a ghost, because he was not afraid to die. Barbara I have changed my mind about POA being my favorite book. I think GoF is now. I've read it at least 3-4 times now and for some reason, in the past, I always thought it was too complicated. But I followed things much better now regarding what Barty Crouch, Jr. did and how things happened, and at the end I had tears in my eyes when Lily and James come out of the wand. Sherry again: Well, I do like GOF, but POA is still my favorite. I just love the relationships in that one, Harry and Lupin, Harry and Sirius ... It's all very moving to me. The first time I read GOF, I didn't actually like it much, but I read it again several times and began to enjoy it very much. Sherry G From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 00:34:54 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:34:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102081 | From: annemehr | Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 2:57 AM There is, and more than vaguely sexual -- but only in the US, not | Britain. At the top of Scholastic OoP, p. 227, Fred and George are | telling Harry and Hermione how tough OWL year is, and George says | "Fred and I managed to keep our spirits up somehow." That sentence in | the UK editions reads: "Fred and I managed to keep our peckers up | somehow," which means the same thing, "peckers" meaning "hearts," but | obviously Scholastic wasn't going to print that! [Lee]: Guess the same can be said for some US terms like "fanny" which is a person's behind here, as well as being a name/nickname. "Fanny Farmer" was/is a shop/producer of wonderful candy. However, the same word apparently means something very different for the British. "Randy" is another interesting word over there; here, the first thing I think of is a name, as I have several friends named Randy. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From clr1971 at alltel.net Sat Jun 19 23:08:41 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:08:41 -0400 Subject: Harry & the motorbike References: <1087425248.22558.59701.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007801c45652$5e27f340$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102082 >Jason: >In South Carolina, a parent or guardian has to sign for anyone >under the age of 18. Also for the car or motorcycle to be legal, it >must be insured. Christina: I think it would depend if it was a motorcyle or a moped type. If it's a large motorcycle as the book seems to describe it then he should need a license and insurance. I don't think a small moped or motorscooter would need insurance. My brother had a small dirtbike that wasn't considered "street legal" so it didn't need insurance. He just drove it around my parent's 60+ acres. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From firedancerflash at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 00:37:28 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book Vs. Movie Sorcerer's Stone Question References: Message-ID: <022a01c4565e$c3f849c0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102083 When Hagrid shows up with the birthday cake, he seems a little out of breath. I think he had to get everything together at the last minute. But something tells me that the mis-spelling of happy was a little joke of some kind. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 01:11:41 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:11:41 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: <004d01c45659$e427fb00$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102084 June wrote: She has her quirks, and some of them aren't so little, but when you strip all that away for a minute, you find a very brave girl,who, if given the chance, would probably be one of the most loyal and trustworthy friends one could have. June vmonte responds: I found this post on another website and I thought it was interesting. It's about the conversation between Luna and Harry at the end of OOTP. ____________by snuggle the muggle:__________________________________ When I read that scene at the end of the book where Luna is talking to Harry about her possessions missing I thought that something else must be going on in that part. After all, JKR does not just put these little things in for the heck of it. She wants to tell us something. I thought at first that it was just for Harry to stop focusing so much on Sirius' death and focus more on someone else's problems, which could certainly be some part of it . . . " But last night, it suddenly dawned on me what I think that JKR is trying to say. I think that Luna's words, "People keep taking my things" and her not knowing where they go could be symbolic of Harry losing all his "things," all the people that he loves and not knowing why. But then, in what I think now is a very poignant foreshadowing of what is coming, she says "But they always come back in the end. I think I'll just go have a pudding and wait for them." I think she might be saying there, and Rowling is saying there, "Things that are lost can be regained. You can find them again. You just need to be patient." I found that message to be very encouraging to Harry. And I think that is why the "tight knot" that had been present in his stomach started to loosen. Maybe subconsciously he got that message. Anyway, I now find that part of the book to be very important to the whole story. Do any of you find other meanings in this scene? ____________snuggle the muggle_____________________________________ From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sun Jun 20 01:16:23 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:16:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71EB2841-C257-11D8-9CDA-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102085 Snfan at aol.com (Christelle?) wrote: > > > Some already answered for Filch. I'd love to know how could be > describe a detention which consist of letting 11 years-old alone in > the Forbidden Forest to search something who could kill a unicorn. I always found this situation rather humorous despite the seriousness of the situation. After all, It's Hagrid's fault that Harry and the others received detentions, since they are helping him get rid of his illegal pet dragon. I suspect that Hagrid either volunteered (or got volunteered) to carry out this detention. (And Hagrid's ideas of suitable activities for children is a not exactly normal, even by wizarding world standards.) So this may not be a good example of what to expect during a normal detention at Hogwarts. DD probably learned that Hagrid bought a dragon from his brother. A remark made latter by DD (in PoA, I think) does lead credence that he knew about the dragon. What I think is funny is that I picture (not canon) McGonagall telling DD the next morning that she heard a this ridiculous story the previous night about a dragon. Only to have DD tell turn around with a twinkle in his eyes and say "...but Minerva there was a dragon." Oh to see her face... I bet Hagrid is undergoing this detention himself in a way too. I'm sure McGonagall let him take the responsibility for of carrying out this detention, but had little inkling of what the task would actually be. I suspect would be amusing to see her face when and if she finds out what Hagrid actually had them do. Oh..la...la. Barbara (Ivogun) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 01:30:00 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:30:00 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <14ac01c45649$ad36d630$152ca8c0@TUTEN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ute John" wrote: > So what if it is not only F&G, but also Charlie who was taken "in" by Molly and Arthur ? > In OofP, when Molly finds out about Ron being Prefect, (page 149) she says:"you could end up benig Head Boy just like Bill and Percy ..." - and she does not mention Charlie. Does anybody remember if Charlie was Prefect as well ? I only remember him being captain of Quidditch team. I also wonder about Ginny I was rereading PoA before we got to the movie, and noticed that Ginny reacted almost as badly to the dementors as Harry - "Ginny, who was huddled in her corner looking nearly as bad as Harry felt, gave a small sob" Was her experince in the Chamber of Secrets enough to cause a similar reaction? It also fits with some of the other comments - like Ron becoming a Prefect, and that being the whole family (not F&G, and Ginny can't be one yet). If as some suspect, F&G were the sons of a Prewett and were 3 when their father was killed by LV, Ginny would have been a newborn. She was born just about the same time as LV killed the Potters. Maybe LV killed them for a similar reason - what prophesies were made regarding Ginny, that we don't know about yet? I suspect Bill, Percy and Ron are brothers, and Charlie, Fred, George and Ginny are thei cousins, adopted into the family when their parents died. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Jun 20 01:30:01 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:30:01 -0000 Subject: Taking it seriously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102087 First, I apology for bringing back an already `old' thread, and for not quoting all the previous messages. I'll just try to summarise the debate before replying: On one hand, Wanda wrote that, by some aspects (for example, Harry's life at the Dursleys) the series is rather `a satirical riot', that `comedy is never far away', and when JKR tries to write `a searing drama', she fails, like it happens in Book 5. On the other hand, Lady Macbeth replied saying that in her opinion, it was quite the opposite, and that in Book 5, `Rowling was finally delving INTO the story of this boy', i.e, in tragedy. Alla , continued the thread, saying: `Wanda, it is not your problem that you cannot take Harry's trials and tribulations seriously. It is your right.' Then she added: `I cannot take Harry's life journey as a satire only. Actually, I cannot take it as a satire at all, humour -Yes, satire - not.' I'll start saying that I wasn't surprised when I read OotP and discovered the tragic atmosphere within. I knew it would be like that, simply because JKR had warned us, writing the graveyard scenes, and making Harry say at the end of GoF: `But I could do with a few laughs. We could all do with a few laughs. I've got the feeling we're going to need them more than usual before long'. Harry isn't given many occasions to laugh in OotP, and that's probably one reason why the book is so uneasy to read. JKR treats us as rudely as she treats Harry. We are actually helpless, facing this boy and his tragic story, and we don't have the escapes we would need, because we can't laugh as much as we expected. But that's probably a challenge we have to accept if we `follow' Harry. I think (but it's only my opinion) the Harry Potter series is essentially a tragedy (in the Greek meaning of the word), though it contains comedy elements. It doesn't depict a very shiny happy world, and I'm quite sure in OotP we are very close to the vision JKR has of human kind. At the same time, she's disillusioned (look what she writes regarding the wizard word in general), but she's still hoping things will go better (in this world, there are people like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, Luna, the twins, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius, Remus, Snape ?yes, even Snape! ). She perfectly matches the feelings and spirit of our time. I'd like also to talk more about satire, because, in my opinion (so it doesn't mean you necessarily will share it), it's not incompatible with tragedy. When an artist uses laughs, it doesn't mean necessarily that his/her work is superficial or only intended as an entertainment. Satire, that combination of laughs, ridiculousness, exaggeration, caricature, is by definition a very useful way to denunciation. Since the beginning, artists used it in order to denounce social or individual failings. See Hogarth's etchings (for example, `Credulity, superstition and bigotry'), or Goya's `Caprichos'; read some novels by Flaubert (`Bouvard et P?cuchet', for instance); or watch Chaplin's `Great Dictator'. They are all satiric works, by many aspects, but they all denounce very serious things. We can find the same use of satire in the Harry Potter series', precisely with the Dursleys, as Wanda pointed out. The Dursleys are caricatures; they look ridiculous most of the time; we laugh at them, but reality behind laughs is not very bright, or comfortable. The Dursleys are obsessed with respectability; they want their neighbours to think they are `normal' and very respectable, and they want to preserve their reputation at any cost, even if it implies child abuse (for example, making Harry live in a cupboard for nearly ten years). They are so obsessed with being `normal' and respectable that they become monstrous, because they are actually intolerant. That's in my opinion what JKR wants to make us understand when she depicts them using satire. Though she says her intention isn't to teach us a morality lesson, or to give us advices, she shows us with the Dursleys how `normality' can degenerate and become a `normative behaviour', which implies discrimination and intolerance, and finally leads to monstrosity. It's a paradox? Maybe, but we live it each day, when we go to work, when we walk in the street, every time we read a magazine or watch TV. Oh yes, we laugh at the Dursleys, and maybe we even look at them condescendingly; we say: `She exaggerates, it can't be possible'. But that's precisely because `it can't be possible' that it happens: why should we expect so normal, so respectable, so civilized people to behave like monsters? The way they abuse Harry, because he's different, makes them look inhuman. They are finally not very far from Voldemort and his Death Eaters, who are ready to torture and kill Muggles because they are not like them. The Dursleys and Voldemort look completely opposite at first glance, but they are actually two aspects of a same problem, i.e. intolerance. As you can see, satire is not there just to make us laugh; it's also there to denounce a very serious problem. Actually, JKR uses two denunciation ways, when she talks about intolerance: a tragic one, when she talks about Voldemort and C?, and a comic one, when she talks about the Dursleys. But the intention and the results are the same: whatever it looks like, whatever you call it, intolerance is intolerance. You can also wonder why JKR needs to write the same thing twice, but differently. Maybe she decided to make us laugh with the Dursleys because she understood laugh happens to be sometimes the only weapon against horror, and it can save us, because it's a human special gift. When Lupin teaches his students how to defeat a Boggart, he shows us we can fight our own fears with laughs. JKR acts like Lupin does when she stigmatizes the Dursleys. Remus makes his students laugh at their inner fears, and their inner fears vanish, though the students know they have to remain vigilant. JKR makes us laugh at the `respectable abusers', and their respectability vanishes, and their child abuses become evidences of their human weakness. We remain with the necessity of being vigilant, because we are human too Comedy isn't very far when you talk about the Dursleys, I agree, but it's serving a tragic story, and a tragic message. With their monstrosity rooting in their human weakness, the Dursley represent also a tragic element in the series. We don't always notice it, because it's hidden under the comedy mask. But there again, it's part of JKR's writing habitude. She plays with us, and she often hides important thing under anecdotic aspects. Look what happens in the first book, when she `shows' us Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card. At first glance, it's just a pleasant `folkloric' detail; later it happens to be the key element that helps Harry to understand the true stake in what he is living. We always tend to underestimate what makes us laugh or what looks anecdotic, and JKR knows it. It would be funny if what we currently consider as a trivial detail happened to be *the* key element of the story. Something apparently very anecdotic, we should better take seriously Of course it's only a supposition, but it would mean JKR did like the Alchemists, who used to hide their knowledge in apparently ludicrous books I think it's time I re-read the whole series. Amicalement, Iris From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Jun 20 01:39:40 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:39:40 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102088 Alla wrote : > > > I am also in agreement with Batchevra - if Snape is uncapable of > > > overcoming those effects of the abuse, let him hate those childrein > > > in private, but not take it out on them. > > > > Del replies : > > Why should we expect him to do that ?? Nobody is forbidding him from > > doing it, and I suspect he gets some kind of twisted pleasure out of > > it. So why ever should he restrain from doing it ?? Darrin: > Why should we expect him to do that? > > For the same reason I expect my neighbor not to let his dog crap on my lawn. > > For the same reason I expect the person behind me at the grocery store not to > bump into my heels with a shopping cart. > > For the same reason I expect my co-workers to do their job and not stick it on > me. Yes, but your expectations are founded on your experience of your local version of the world. Can we assume those expectations apply to the culture we see at Hogwarts? The question is, I think, whether JKR has given us reasons to believe that Snape behaves as he does because, in effect, he can't help it, or because he chooses to. If we think it's because he can't help it, then we may feel that he ought not to be a teacher, but in that case, we have a new question: why does Dumbledore allow him to continue to teach? In Alla's words if Snape is 'incapable of overcoming the effects of abuse', how is he to apply the advice that list members have for him? Incapable is incapable. David, who would be interested in Darrin's response to Pippin's original question From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 01:47:08 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:47:08 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > >>>From: Jason [mailto:shrtbusryder2002 at y...] > > The Third Task, GoF... ""Hang on!" he shouted, advancing in the > wake of his silver Patronus, "You're a boggart! Riddikulus!" > > There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of > smoke. "<<< > > I was going to mention that as well, but I also wanted to ask, the way Lupin > taught about fighting the Boggarts, didn't he say that "Riddikulus" changed > it into something laughable to the person facing it? Yet when Lupin and > Harry say "Riddikulus!" the Boggart just explodes. Am I confused or is this > a JKR inconsistency? Guess I'll go check POA to double-check what Lupin > taught them. > > Barbara > bd-bear Lupin did indeed teach them to make the boggart funny but, I believe that was so they could learn the theory. As in learning the steps involved in completing a math problem. But, as in learning math, once you're practiced at certain things, you can often skip steps to get your answer or desired result. He didnt have to work through the riddikulus the way he would not have to work out 5 times 5...at least in my head. :-) Jason From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:02:31 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:02:31 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Alla earlier: > > "Right Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: what > > would you say s the thing that firhgtens you most in the world?" > > Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out. > > "Didn't catch that,Neville,sorry," said Professor Lupin cheerfully. > > Neville looked around rather wildly, as though begging someone to > > help him, then said, in barely more than a wisper, > > "Professor Snape" - PoA, p.102, UK edition. > > > > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity by > > the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. > > > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are not > > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G-D for > > Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his > > fears out in the open. :o) > > Kneasy: > Laughable. > He chose Snape because he didn't want the other kids to know about > his parents. > If he'd said Voldy or Bella everybody would have wanted to know why. > Even two years later at St Mungo's he's extremely embarrassed when he's > caught visiting his parents. > Neville doesn't want to be pitied, but some posters don't see it. In fact, > they want to insist on inflicting it on him. > > Alla: Could you show me canon where it says that your biggest fear can actually be chosen? I don't think so. I'll be gald to eat my words though. > > Alla previously: > > Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't > > witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he just > > wishes that they existed. > Kneasy: > Your definition of abuse, i.e. Snape, occurs every day at Hogwarts. Alla: yes, and I was arguing that he is kind of unique. > Kneasy: > GoF chap 31 - > Mrs Weasley grinned her eyes twinkling. > "Your father and I had been out for a night-time stroll," she said. > "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle - he was the caretaker in those days - > your father's still got the marks." > Alla: Thank you, but marks from what? > > Alla earlier: > > I already addressed this issue in a different post. I most certainly > > don't want phantasy to be real, but many things in it still has to > > ring at least emotional truth to me. > Kneasy: > Why complain when it does? Isn't that one of the definitions of good > writing? To be touched by a tale and then to complain because of it > seems very odd IMO. I suggest that you try something less emotionally > demanding if it's going to upset you that much. Alla: I am sorry? I know that this is a very good writing, which allows me to complain about characters. I enjoy reading it, but I am also going to yell at the character, whose actions often annoy me so. And, thanks , but no thanks, I am not going to go for something less demanding. snip. Alla From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 02:10:27 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:10:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: References: <7A938A1A-C1FC-11D8-9317-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <1725987688.20040619191027@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102091 Hi, Saturday, June 19, 2004, 10:52:12 AM, mcmaxslb wrote: > As a matter of fact if it > wasn't for Harry they wouldn't even be friends. In your opinion, but not according to canon, where Ron and Hermione do things together (go to Hogsmeade, shopping and eating ice cream at Diagon Alley, Hermione coming to the Weasleys earlier than Harry...). If Hermione and Ron were not friends, they'd try and avoid each other if not with Harry. Ron obviously cares about Hermione, and Hermione does about Ron (I'm not talking about shipping here). Hermione worries when Ron is not back from Quidditch with the others, for example. In PoA, she cares about not having Ron's friendship, even though Harry has already reconciled with her, and she is going spare when Ron gets dragged into the Whomping Willow. Harry is in danger a lot more often, so of course, both Ron and Hermione worry about him a lot more often. It's one thing to claim that you don't see Ron and Hermione having a romantic relationship, but asserting they aren't even friends is a different story. If you are trying to say that Harry was the one who remembered Hermione was in the bathroom and didn't hear the troll warning, and that's how their friendship started, you might have a point. But I do think Hermione was very interested in both boys opinion already, and if not for the troll, there could have been plenty of other opportunities for their friendship to begin. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:12:57 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:12:57 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > Alla earlier: > > > "Right Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: what > > > would you say s the thing that firhgtens you most in the world?" > > > Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out. > > > "Didn't catch that,Neville,sorry," said Professor Lupin > cheerfully. > > > Neville looked around rather wildly, as though begging someone to > > > help him, then said, in barely more than a wisper, > > > "Professor Snape" - PoA, p.102, UK edition. > > > > > > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity > by > > > the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. > > > > > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are > not > > > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G- D > for > > > Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his > > > fears out in the open. :o) > > > > Kneasy: > > Laughable. > > He chose Snape because he didn't want the other kids to know about > > his parents. > > If he'd said Voldy or Bella everybody would have wanted to know why. > > Even two years later at St Mungo's he's extremely embarrassed when > he's > > caught visiting his parents. > > Neville doesn't want to be pitied, but some posters don't see it. > In fact, > > they want to insist on inflicting it on him. > > > > > > > Alla: > > > Could you show me canon where it says that your biggest fear can > actually be chosen? I don't think so. > > I'll be gald to eat my words though. > > > > > Alla previously: > > > Eh? It does not happen in Hogwarts every day or at least we don't > > > witness it. Filtch talking about physical punishments? Maybe he > just > > > wishes that they existed. > > > > > Kneasy: > > Your definition of abuse, i.e. Snape, occurs every day at Hogwarts. > > > Alla: yes, and I was arguing that he is kind of unique. > > > > > Kneasy: > > GoF chap 31 - > > Mrs Weasley grinned her eyes twinkling. > > "Your father and I had been out for a night-time stroll," she > said. > > "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle - he was the caretaker in those > days - > > your father's still got the marks." > > > > > Alla: > > > Thank you, but marks from what? > > > > > > Alla earlier: > > > I already addressed this issue in a different post. I most > certainly > > > don't want phantasy to be real, but many things in it still has > to > > > ring at least emotional truth to me. > > > > > Kneasy: > > Why complain when it does? Isn't that one of the definitions of good > > writing? To be touched by a tale and then to complain because of it > > seems very odd IMO. I suggest that you try something less > emotionally > > demanding if it's going to upset you that much. > > > > Alla: > > > I am sorry? I know that this is a very good writing, which allows me > to complain about characters. I enjoy reading it, but I am also going > to yell at the character, whose actions often annoy me so. And, > thanks , but no thanks, I am not going to go for something less > demanding. > > > > snip. > > > Alla LOL I love you guys! This is a pretty good and interesting tennis match. Im very much enjoying following the thread. As far as I can see it, you both have points. But by all means, keep debating! Jason From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:23:44 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:23:44 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: Alla earlier: > > > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to insanity > by > > the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or his servants. > > > Mel > Well let's see. He's never MET Voldemort, and we have no idea of > whether he was present during the visit of 'his servants'. He's as > afraid of Voldemort as any of the other students there. They ALL > have things that are more immediate in their lives and therefore, in > their child minds more imminently terrible. > > Alla earlier: > > He is terrified most in the world of his Professor. If those are > nott > > he effects of the abuse, I truly don't know what is. Thanks G-D > for > > Lupin's psychotherapy, or poor boy would never be able to let his > > fears out in the open. :o) > > Mel > And Hermione is more terrified of bad grades. > Alla: that was not exactly my point. Kneasy was arguing that there are no effects of abuse by Snape shown in canon. I gave the quote that it was. I could pick anybody who scared Neville in his life (his uncle Angie, for example) I was just telling that Snape is his most terrifying nightmare. :o) Alla > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:37:53 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:37:53 -0000 Subject: What if Sirius Hadn't Escaped in POA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: snip. > Suppose Sirius, after having seen the Daily Prophet with Peter on it, kept > his need for revenge in check and somehow got Fudge to allow DD to visit him > (or get word to him that Sirius needed to tell him something). DD goes to > Sirius, Sirius tells him that Pettigrew is alive and is Ron's rat, DD calls > Ron to his office, requesting (as nonchalantly as possible) that he bring > his pet, DD forces Pettigrew to reveal himself and then uses his Leglimens > (sorry if I'm not spelling that right) skills to determine that Pettigrew > did indeed betray the Potters and Sirius is innocent. > > In fact, if DD is so all-knowing and all powerful, how come he can't do this > more often? I mean, now that I know he has these abilities, I assume he has > used this power whenever he has talked to Harry after Harry's been in > trouble, and that's why he trusts Harry, because he knows that Harry hasn't > lied about the important stuff. Moreover, I would assume that Snape would > also use this ability on his students to check if they're lying, but then, I > don't get the feeling he WANTS to know that Harry is truthful at the times > Snape is accusing him of being otherwise. > > But then again, I'm only in the beginning of OOTP. While I vaguely remember > reading in some of the posts on this list that the ability to do that > Leglimens thingy is rare, I don't know if it's frowned upon in the WW as an > invasion of privacy. If that's the case, that would explain why it's not > done more. > > Any thoughts? > > Barbara, who's disappointed that nobody has yet responded to her post "Some > comments/questions about GoF" > bd-bear Hi, Barbara! I usually don't engage in "what ifs" for totally different reasons. Because if I do, I sometimes come to the conclusion that JKR's plotting is not as tight as i want to think. :o) The obvious example, when it comes to Sirius, is of course, why was not he given veritaserum, before they sent him to Azkaban. Yes, this question was discussed here a lot and different reasons were offered (veritaserum being a rare potion, hard to brew, etc.) But I felt that these are just excuses we came up for JKR another plot goof. :o) Coming back to your "what if". I frankly don't think that dumbledore would wanted to visit Sirius. Remember that he testified against Sirius at his hearing? Obviously he was convinced that Sirius was guilty. I am not sure he would have come to Sirius. :o) Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 20 02:40:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:40:11 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D38970.6060303@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102095 Irene wrote: > Seriously, McGonagall can give Snape run for his money in sarcasm > department. Now, please listen before you go for my throat - she is > obviously not as cruel, I could never imagine her doing anything like > "I see no difference" scene, but she is very caustic. > The difference in the readers' perception is very much because of the > difference in Harry's perception: when McGonagall tells him "if you die > tomorrow, you don't have submit the essay", it's OK. If it was Snape > saying the same thing, Harry would think it was a death threat. > Anyway, why is she so amused at Harry's reaction to "potions" during the > career talk? > Potioncat: I agree. McGonagall has a sharp tongue. She's made some comments to Neville as well...I recall one about not letting the visiting students know he can't do a simple spell of some sort. As far as Harry tolerating it, he flat out doesn't trust Snape. So he attributes hostile meanings behind everything Snape says, while he doesn't with McGonagall. Yes, I'd like to know what she's thinking behind that smile too! From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 02:43:04 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:43:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blaise Zabini - He's a Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102096 | From: Geoff Bannister | Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 6:16 AM [Geoff]: | | --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The | Healing Force)" wrote: | > Ah--Geoff...Thanks for returning my lost marble. :-) | > | > Yes, now I remember, and it seemed like a nothing sort of | event...But, true, | > Susan Bones didn't really make a definitive appearance until OOTP. | | Geoff: | Depends what you mean by definitive. She did appear in the above | scene: | [Lee]: Yes, I know that. But then she didn't reappear to any great degree until joining the DA in OOTP. Her question to Harry about a corporeal patronus reminded him of her aunt Amelia. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:45:22 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:45:22 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <007901c45644$4b44a010$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > Sorry I'm not including any previous posts, but I have a general > comment/question pertaining to the discussion as a whole. > > Let's say that F&G were the sons of one of the Prewett brothers rather than > Molly's and Arthur's. Sure, it would make sense to me for Molly and Arthur > to take in their orphaned nephews and raise them as their own except... What > happened to their biological mother, then? Moody made no mention of either > one of the brothers being married and it seems to me that they were married > and their wives died as well, he'd mention it. > > Alina. > > P.S. BTW, it's Weasleys and Prewetts without an apostrophe ^^ Snow: Thanks for the correction on the apostrophe. When I'm involved in writing sometimes only some of my English and punctuation skills are emphasized. I noticed that I had done the same in some past posts with the emphasis before the s instead of after. As for your post, Alina, someone previously brought up the same question that you posed here. My reply was something like: The mother of the twins may have been killed by Voldemort, which caused her husband and his brother to become part of the Order to avenge her death. This could be why Molly held information back from the twins fearing that they would act in the same manner as their father. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:49:18 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620024918.99938.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102098 katiegryffindor wrote: I read a Rowling interview where she says that Sirius has to die in order for something to happen in book six . She had no choice but to kill him. Okay, guys, lets look at this objectively. JKR said that Sirius had to die in order for something to happen in book six. Lets put all of our heads together and come up with what changes will take place due to Sirius dying that would not happen if he were alive. 1)anger 2)frustration 3)inheritance 4)sense of loss Thoughts? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:50:20 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:50:20 -0000 Subject: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > I have to say I lean towards the UK versions more myself. It irks me that something > like a character's first name was changed. In OotP UK, it's "Algernon Rookwood" and > in the US it's "Augustus". Annemehr: If it makes you feel any better, he was "Augustus" in both versions of GoF (so named by Karkaroff in the pensieve scene), so apparently it was an inconsistency in OoP that the Scholastic editors caught (or the Bloomsbury editors failed to correct). Unless there's a pair of ex-Unspeakable Rookwood brothers working for Voldemort? Arya: I'd > rather there was no content difference at all between the two. In fact, I think it's a > shame the Scholastic versions try to edit out the things that really flavour the setting > of the books. I can't see how children (and us adults) are harmed by being exposed > to the Brit-speak. Learning new things never really hurts. > > Arya Annemehr: I agree, other than a few other places Scholastic has appeared to have caught a mistake. I was surprised to see in the Lexicon's lists of differences so many "Britishisms" I was perfectly familiar with -- apparently I've read quite a few less-edited British books. Annemehr From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 20 02:53:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:53:21 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102100 > Snow again: > As far as changing the name I don't think it was meant to hide the > boys as much as protect them from the knowledge that their father was > killed by Voldemort. If the boys grew up knowing that this was what > happened to their father they may have set out early-on to avenge > their father's death. Also, this name change would mean that Molly > would be spared of having to keep the memory of what happened to her > (probably brother) alive. > >Potioncat: Snow, I think you have a good theory. But I think it's a "Let's wait and see.." one. On your side are the episodes you mentioned earlier that in this fiction by JKR could be foreshadowing (or would that be postshadowing?) As an adoptive mother myself, I would think that if the Weasleys chose to "take in" their nephews they might also choose to raise them as their own sons. Therefore the change of names and use of Mum and Dad. Although I don't know how adoption works in the UK. (As a mother who has children by both adoption and birth, I know there is no difference in the love for them.) You could also make the argument that given the way WW adults use secrecy around kids in general, the twins might not be told about it until grown. Although in another post, someone brings up that Ron doesn't react at reading about the Prewitts death and he should at least recognise the names. (Although maybe he's keeping secrets like Neville does.) However, one argument against it is that the twins, Ron, and Percy favor Arthur Weasly while Bill and Charlie favor Molly. Potioncat From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:56:34 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:56:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040620024918.99938.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > katiegryffindor wrote: > I read a Rowling interview where she says that Sirius has to die in order for something to happen in book six . She had no choice but to kill him. > > > Okay, guys, lets look at this objectively. JKR said that Sirius had to die in order for something to happen in book six. Lets put all of our heads together and come up with what changes will take place due to Sirius dying that would not happen if he were alive. > > 1)anger > 2)frustration > 3)inheritance > 4)sense of loss > > Thoughts? > > moonmyyst > > I think it will be a combination of all those. He said it himself at the end of OoP. Harry is tired of being Harry. I think it's all going to come down on him and he'll try to get away from being Harry. I actually think he'll be the rumored person to switch houses. He'll join up with Slytherin and try to not BE Harry Potter. Only when the s*&t hits the fan will he accept his responsibility and accept his fate... in book 7. Jason From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 02:57:10 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:57:10 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: snip > > You could also make the argument that given the way WW adults use > secrecy around kids in general, the twins might not be told about it > until grown. Although in another post, someone brings up that Ron > doesn't react at reading about the Prewitts death and he should at > least recognise the names. (Although maybe he's keeping secrets like > Neville does.) > > However, one argument against it is that the twins, Ron, and Percy > favor Arthur Weasly while Bill and Charlie favor Molly. > > Potioncat Alla: I think I like this theory too. I don't think it will be unusual if twins indeed were not told about it till they are grown, or never. I was actually very surprised when I came to the United States that children are often told that they are adoptive. In the country where I come from, children usually never know, unless the circumstances are highly unusual. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jun 20 03:21:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:21:26 -0000 Subject: Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: <20040619142134.42255.qmail@web52404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, FoxyDoxy wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > Is there any evidence in canon that any other Slytherin knows this > > spell. I always assumed that Snape told Draco this spell right > before > > the duel. I think that Snape suspected that Harry is a Parselmouth > > and wanted to test his suspicion. > > Darrin: > > I agree that Snape taught him the spell on the spot. > > Whether or not Snape wanted to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth? I don't > even give Snape blame for being that diabolical. > > Doxy: > > So let me get this straight. You guys think Snape taught Draco the spell on the spot and Draco pulled it off perfectly on his first try? > > > Potioncat: Agreeing with Doxy in surprise. I didn't think either Darrin or Alla thought so highly of Snape or Draco! ;-p I don't think canon gives us anything but that Snape whispered in Draco's ear (or appeared to) and the serpensortia spell happened. That Harry spoke in snaketalk and Snape eventually got rid of the snake. All the rest is conjecture. We can wonder at who taught it and when and who else knows it. We can wonder at Snape's motive. We can make up our mind and be sure of it. Just as most of the school were sure that Harry was egging the snake on. Potioncat who sometimes knows she doesn't know something. From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 01:03:18 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:03:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102104 Earlier I said: I was going to mention that as well, but I also wanted to ask, the way Lupin taught about fighting the Boggarts, didn't he say that "Riddikulus" changed it into something laughable to the person facing it? Yet when Lupin and Harry say "Riddikulus!" the Boggart just explodes. Am I confused or is this a JKR inconsistency? Guess I'll go check POA to double-check what Lupin taught them.<<<<<<<<<<<< I'm following up on my own last message regarding the inconsistency of using the Riddikulus charm with Boggarts. Yes, in the initial lesson he gives to Harry's class, Lupin uses "Riddikulus!" on his own boggart (the moon shape) and it turns into a cockroach (I've no idea why that would be funny, as it is supposed to be to fight a boggart). It is not until after Neville has another go at it, and turns the Snape-boggart into a transvestite-Snape-boggart that Neville laughs and then the boggart explodes. IIRC, this is the ONLY time anyone ever laughs at a boggart, and Lupin himself said: "You see, the thing that really finishes a boggart is laughter. What you need to do is force it to assume a shape that you find amusing." POA 134 But I don't think anyone else does this. Harry fights it a few times in training with Lupin and I think he passes out a few times and Lupin always forces the boggart back into the trunk. Even after HP produces a decent Patronus, Lupin jumps in front of the boggart, he yells "Riddikulus," it turns into an orb again and then he forces it back in the trunk again. However, in GoF, when Harry meets the boggart-dementor in the maze, he performs the Patronus Charm, then realizes that he's not fighting a dementor, but a boggart and uses the Riddikulus charm. "There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke." GoF 623 Now, how is this possible? Boggarts are supposed to be best fought when more than one person is together so that they can get confused by the different people's fears. In addition, you're supposed to change the shape-shifter into something funny when you say "Riddikulus" so you can then laugh at it. That's what is supposed to get rid of it permanently. Harry is alone and doesn't laugh, so how can the boggart be gone? Maybe I'm being too literal, but every now and again I find something in the books that seems like an inconsistency, which I wouldn't blame JKR for, since she is only human, but if you guys can correct me, feel free. Maybe I've missed something. Barbara bd-bear From srobles at caribe.net Sun Jun 20 02:52:50 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:52:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <20040618200509.5634.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Shea wrote: > On her website, JKR addresses the raging shipping controversy in the following manner: > > Q:Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? > > A: I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. > > Am I the only surprised that JKR believes the answer is an easy one to work out since there are many diligent amateur Potterists who have analyzed the textual evidence who cannot answer the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? I had begun to believe that JKR wanted this question to be hard to answer. Hi, Peter. I believe the same way you do... I think JKR did want this question to be hard to answer. R/Hr believers like sbursztynski and Firedancer believe firmly that R/Hr is the way to go, because they have "proof" that Hr/R like each other, with Ron's jealousy over Krum and Hermione's snapping at him that he should have asked her to the ball if he had a problem with her going with Krum. But ask a H/Hr believer like myself and, apparently, mcmaxslb (in her post for "Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP"), and we are going to tell you exactly the opposite because we have "proof" that Hr is in love with H (although he's too thick to notice), with Krum's jealousy over Harry on GoF, and with her kiss on the cheek after a conversation with Krum at the end of GoF, and how she left Ron's very important championship game without so much as a protest to go with Harry and Hagrid to the forest (I'm a H/Hr shipper, and this even hurts me! Specially when we know she hasn't missed a single game of Harry), and her business-like tone when she interrogated him about Cho's kiss. So you see, the so called "proof" is ambiguous at best and can be manipulated to our heart's content. JKR might try to hide the fact that she made Hermione's object of affection ambiguous on purpose... but we know better! She knows what she's doing... and is loving every minute of it! Cheers, Anasazi -who feels strangely proud of finally making her first post on this list. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sun Jun 20 03:00:26 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:00:26 -0000 Subject: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: <1725987688.20040619191027@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102106 --- Susanne wrote: > >> In your opinion, but not according to canon, where Ron and > Hermione do things together (go to Hogsmeade, shopping and > eating ice cream at Diagon Alley, Hermione coming to the > Weasleys earlier than Harry...). OK you are right in that Ron and Hermione are friends now. I do not deny that. However I stand by saying that if not for Harry, Ron and Hermione would not have become friends. >> Hermione worries when Ron is not back from Quidditch with > the others, for example. >>In PoA, she cares about not having Ron's friendship, even >though Harry has already reconciled with her, and she is > going spare when Ron gets dragged into the Whomping Willow. Yes Hermione does care for and worry over Ron, as a friend. > Yes Hermione does care for and worry over Ron, as a friend. > If you are trying to say that Harry was the one who > remembered Hermione was in the bathroom and didn't hear the > troll warning, and that's how their friendship started, you > might have a point. > > But I do think Hermione was very interested in both boys > opinion already, and if not for the troll, there could have > been plenty of other opportunities for their friendship to > begin. I can't go along with this. JKR herself has said that the troll made the Trio. From dk59us at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 03:33:10 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:33:10 -0000 Subject: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: <20030803131749.58950.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102107 Steve wrote: > Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait...I ...suspect that since they are actors portraying a role, they do to some extent reflect the world's perceived belief in who they are. So a wizard who was perceived to be evil, would reflect an essence of evil in his portrait. Although, I think that would be more hinted at, his real personality would dominate. Then Donna: With portraits, since they would be painted by wizards/witches, would be enchanted someway to reflect the personality of the person posing. And it would definately have to involve a living person. How else would that person's personality be transferred. I don't think that a "piece of the person" need be imbedded in the paint. At least I don't recall that being said in any of the books. Unless JKR actually said that in an interview, when a portrait is painted it "captures" the essence of the person at the time it was painted. Next owlery2003: Interesting theory, but I tend to think the "real person" is somehow represented (and not by an "actor"). In DD's office, we see the former headmasters, and I can't imagine they are anyone other than the "real" thing. No idea how it happens (magic!), but their reactions/actions don't suggest anything other. Phineas Nigellus is a good example, as he turns from the snippy, dark headmaster-character to the concerned distant relative when he learns that Sirius is dead. My two knuts! And Eustace_Scrubb: I think to some extent, all of you are right (and like Steve I can't recall much canon, so we're in the realm of reasonable extrapolation here). Some of the paintings (Sir Cadogan, The Fat Lady) fit Steve's vision of an actor playing a role. Sometimes they're more like characters in a genre painting rather than a formal portrait. But some are in fact formal portraits (Hogwarts headmasters, Black family members) and they seem to have the whole personality as owlery2003 sees it. And Donna points out that the magical paintings are painted by a wizard or a witch who probably use one or more spells to bring their creation to life. I think this explains the variations that we see from painting to painting. There are varying levels of artistic skill depending on the artist (and possibly the rapport between artist and subject?--that's my speculative notion). I do think it's a spell that puts the personality in the portrait, rather than a bit of DNA, but I've no canon to back that up. If dementors can suck the soul right out of you, I suspect magical artists can find a way to embed a copy of your personality on canvas. My 2 knuts. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 03:38:38 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:38:38 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102108 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says The very very beautiful, the very very talented, the Bellatrix of the Light, the only one Voldemort had to kill himself: put your wands in the air for the incomparable Dorcas Meadowes! --JDR From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 20 04:08:24 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:08:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if Sirius Hadn't Escaped in POA? Message-ID: <1c2.1aa9837a.2e0667b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102109 In a message dated 6/19/04 11:16:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: >Coming back to your "what if". I frankly don't think that dumbledore would wanted to visit Sirius. Remember that he testified against Sirius at his hearing? Obviously he was convinced that Sirius was guilty. I am not sure he would have come to Sirius. :o) Alla< Sirius never had a trial, he was sent directly to Azkaban by Crouch Sr., said so in GOF when discussing with Harry about the competition and everything. Dumbledore was under the impression that Sirius was the secret keeper, and that is why he believed that Sirius was guilty. James and Sirius never told Dumbledore about the switch because they knew of the spy in the Order. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 04:12:24 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:12:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: References: <1725987688.20040619191027@vcem.com> Message-ID: <86306441.20040619211224@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102110 Hi, Saturday, June 19, 2004, 8:00:26 PM, mcmaxslb wrote: > I can't go along with this. JKR herself has said that the troll > made the Trio. So, they wouldn't be friends without the troll, right? ;) Because without the troll, Harry and Ron wouldn't have had a reason to go find Hermione... Anyway, there is always one reason or another for a friendship to start, and in their case is wasn't mutual liking, but other circumstances. They like each other despite their differences, not because they are all three very similar, or have the same opinion about most things. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 04:15:24 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:15:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: References: <20040618200509.5634.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1244594595.20040619211524@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102111 Hi, Saturday, June 19, 2004, 7:52:50 PM, anasazi_pr wrote: > I think JKR did want this > question to be hard to answer. But then, why can't she believe that we haven't all figured it out, yet? If she really wants this issue to be hard to answer, why should she be surprised that there is such controversy? It sounds to me as if she thinks she has made it pretty clear who Hermione likes romantically. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 04:27:50 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 04:27:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <1244594595.20040619211524@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Saturday, June 19, 2004, 7:52:50 PM, anasazi_pr wrote: > > > I think JKR did want this > > question to be hard to answer. > > But then, why can't she believe that we haven't all figured > it out, yet? > > If she really wants this issue to be hard to answer, why > should she be surprised that there is such controversy? > > It sounds to me as if she thinks she has made it pretty > clear who Hermione likes romantically. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne Someone earlier said something to the effect that Hermione doesn't show signs of romantic interest to either Ron or Harry and that it's only Ron showing any signs. I'd agree with that. Hermione seems quite indifferent to either of the boys other than a strong bond of friendship love. I thought she was at the Burrow earlier than Harry because 1) I had the impression that she was one of Ginny's best friends in addition to Ron's and 2) Harry had to stay at Privet drive the required length of time. (Or just didn't get his invitation because Dobby stole his mail.) I'd also say that Hermione would have the same arguments with Harry if he barked about Hermy and Krum or showed the emotional range of a teaspoon. Ron just wears his heart on his sleeve and pisses Hermione off all the time. I think I remember a JKR quote that everyone was in love with the wrong person during GoF. I took that to mean, Ron with Hermione, Harry with Cho, and Hermione with Krum. Im not so sure any pair of the trio will be together in the end. Possibly briefly in book 6. Which is another reason for Harry to retreat and pull away from everyone before saving the day in book 7. Jason From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 04:38:00 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:38:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: References: <1244594595.20040619211524@vcem.com> Message-ID: <765805810.20040619213800@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102113 Hi, Saturday, June 19, 2004, 9:27:50 PM, Jason wrote: > Someone earlier said something to the effect that Hermione doesn't > show signs of romantic interest to either Ron or Harry and that it's > only Ron showing any signs. I'd agree with that. Hermione seems > quite indifferent to either of the boys other than a strong bond of > friendship love. Well, many readers have seen signs of Hermione liking Ron (related to Fleur, and Ron not even considering her a girl, and therefor a person to ask to the Yule Ball, and other little hints), and then others see Hermione showing signs of preferring Harry. > I thought she was at the Burrow earlier than Harry because 1) I had > the impression that she was one of Ginny's best friends in addition > to Ron's and 2) Harry had to stay at Privet drive the required > length of time. (Or just didn't get his invitation because Dobby > stole his mail.) I don't think this had anything to so with romance. It's showing that Hermione does not consider Ron a friend (as some people claim). > I'd also say that Hermione would have the same arguments with Harry > if he barked about Hermy and Krum or showed the emotional range of a > teaspoon. Ron just wears his heart on his sleeve and pisses Hermione > off all the time. Hermione and Harry have had plenty of their own arguments, especially in OotP. But I don't think having arguments is a sure sign of romance. ;) > I think I remember a JKR quote that everyone was in love with the > wrong person during GoF. I took that to mean, Ron with Hermione, > Harry with Cho, and Hermione with Krum. I always thought she used the term "love" very loosely, and the wrong "couples" I saw were Harry and Cho, Hermione and Krum, and Ron and Fleur. Or possibly the Ball configurations. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From saavi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 03:40:04 2004 From: saavi at yahoo.com (saavi) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:40:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <006601c4565a$95a37760$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102114 June wrote: > I have to agree that all the evidence points to Hermione and Ron, > but I still wonder why it wasn't H.-and-H. I guess the easy answer > is, it just didn't happen that way, but the question still niggles > me. Anyone have any speculation? Even in her web page JKR refuses to tell who does Hermione love, though, as you said, all the evidence points to a H/R relationship. But should be let us guide by the evident? This is JKR, and we all know how much she likes to play with us, poor readers. (just joking, I love her twisting endings) I think that JKR has some surprises for us regarding the love relationships within the "trio" My theory is that Hermione knows that Ron has feelings for her and she is flattered by it and not so sure how to deal with it. In the other hand, she has feelings for Harry, but she is smart enough to wait until he feels the same for her (or until he realizes that in fact he already has feelings for her). This may be the reason why Hermione tells Harry that in love matters "Harry, you're worse than Ron.... Well, no, you're not,..."(pag 572) Because Ron knows what he feels for Hermione, but he doesn't dare to tell her about it and is allways so clumsy and rude. At least Harry try to make things work out with Cho. Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe Ron will turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do you think? "saavi" From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 04:51:11 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 04:51:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <765805810.20040619213800@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102115 > > Hermione and Harry have had plenty of their own arguments, > especially in OotP. > But I don't think having arguments is a sure sign of > romance. ;) > Neither do I. Thats why I tend to overlook the arguments between Ron and Hermione. > > I think I remember a JKR quote that everyone was in love with the > > wrong person during GoF. I took that to mean, Ron with Hermione, > > Harry with Cho, and Hermione with Krum. > > I always thought she used the term "love" very loosely, and > the wrong "couples" I saw were Harry and Cho, Hermione and > Krum, and Ron and Fleur. > > Or possibly the Ball configurations. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne Also possible. Just not what *I* first thought of. :-) Jason From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 20 03:49:07 2004 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (julie w) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:49:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D50933.3000605@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102116 sbursztynski wrote: > As for parents having survived Snape, don't forget he's a bit young > to have taught the parents of most of these kids. :-) > Okay, maybe a few ... but he's only in his 30s. I suppose he might > just have taught some of them in their last years of school when he > was in his first year, but only just. And first year teachers usually > have a lot to learn. Sorry, guess I should have been more clear. I meant that the parents in the WW probably had some teachers just as bad as Snape. We don't know who all the previous teachers were or what they were like. Julie W in AR From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 20 04:54:32 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:54:32 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D4530C.25226.17FB36F@localhost> Message-ID: <40D5A528.30600.9A1482@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102117 On 19 Jun 2004 at 15:44, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > How much does the students' performance reflects on him? I am > inclined to think that Dumbledore will keep him at school regardless, > because his initial reasons for keeping Snape as ateacher have > nothing to do with the teaching itself, but with the fight against > Voldemort. Ah, but it's not just the threat of losing his job that is relevant when saying that the students' performance reflects on him. Snape has serious issues when it comes to respect. He *craves* respect. This may come from his childhood, or it may be from somewhere else, but it is obviously *very* important to him. Craving respect as he does from those around him, he's going to want his students to get decent marks so he compares well to his fellow teachers. He's not going to want them to be doing worse in potions than they do in other subjects - he's going to want them to do better in his subject so he can appear as a good teacher to his peers. > I want to believe that no matter how stupid Dumbledore is, he would > have never allowed Snape to teach if the threat of Voldie coming back > was not in the air. To me, that's a side issue. It really is. I can't really believe that Dumbledore would tolerate a teacher he felt to be unreasonably abusive (for want of a better term) because of Voldemort. I think Dumbledore would find another way. Snape is teaching at Hogwarts because while I doubt Dumbledore approves of Snape's methods, he obviously doesn't find them sufficiently wrong as to warrant dismissal. I think Dumbledore has Snape as a teacher because he's the best potions teacher available to him. Potions appears to be a very difficult subject - there may simply not be any better teacher available for it. I know one of the Snape-like teachers I had and I allude to, only kept his job because he would have been virtually impossible to replace (if he had gone too far, they'd have removed him regardless of that fact, of course - but as it was, they tolerated more from him than they normally would have). > Alla: > > Oh, he is passionate about his subject, that I have no doubt about. > At the same time he belittles his students throughout this speech, so > no matter how passionate he is about Potions, I don't think he wants > to pass the knowledge to the next generation. :o) That's only valid if you assume belittling his students makes them less likely to do well - and for many students, that's *not* a valid assumption at all. Belittling them as you put it, may well be Snape's attempt to motivate them. > Shaun: > > > Thirdly - even if Snape's only real motivation is to torment his > > students, teaching them legitimises that torment. Pushing them to > > learn gives him an excuse to torment them if he wants to. Could you > > see Snape passing that up? > > Alla: What do you mean by "passing that up?" To Dumbledore? If yes, > then yes, I can unfortunately. What did JKR say why dumbledore keeps > Snape? teach lessons about dealing with nasty people? (paraphrase) Sorry - 'passing that up' is an idiomatic expression that means 'wasting an opportunity' - "Could you see Snape wasting an opportunity to torment his students, if that is what he wants to do?" Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From verysherryk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 04:30:20 2004 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 04:30:20 -0000 Subject: Adults know best? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102118 Del wrote: > if Ms Giardina meant to talk about children's literature, what did > she choose HP for?? JKR herself said that those books aren't kids > books. They are books she writes to please herself, and she's not a > kid. Ms. Giardina more than likely included HP to get into the news. I haven't tried deconstructing HP, because I want to enjoy them, but I agree with everyone that she is misreading HP. verysherryk From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 20 05:02:19 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:02:19 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <20040619163829.8896.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <40D48873.27285.25058E8@localhost> Message-ID: <40D5A6FB.9689.A136C3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102119 On 19 Jun 2004 at 9:38, Miss Melanie wrote: > My reply: That's really not fair to make that statement. I mean of > course Harry and Hermione prefer the wizarding world over the muggle > one they are better suited for it. We don't know this for sure but I > get the impression that Hermione was a bit of an outsider in the > muggle world. I believe in the first book *granted I don't have it on > me so I can't look to be sure* but she says something to the effect of > "I never really fit in but my family was very surprised when I got my > letter. I'm the first witch." To me that implies that she found > herself able to see things, or do things that other children were not > able to do. We know Harry had incidences of "accidental" magic before > going to school and based on what Hagrid asks in SS/PS we can assume > that most wizard children, muggle or pure, do these things. Thus, I'm > sure a witch with Hermione's talent did some accidental magic as well. > I don't know for sure but I can assume that if she did this in the > muggle world that it confused her and her parents greatly. She felt > that she was a bit of an outsider to it, even if her parents did not > do anything directly to make her feel that way. Sure, and believe me, as someone who spends much of their life working with children like Hermione (gifted children) who often feel like thet don't fit in, I see this. But I don't think it has any relevance to what I said. > Thus, even if she enjoys the muggle world and finds that muggles are > able to create a wonderful lives in it she can't really feel that she > belongs in that world. She wants to be with other people who are like > her. However, that doesn't mean that she thinks the magical world is > better only different. I don't really think there is a distinction. If she prefers to live in the Wizarding World, then, by definition, she has decided it is a better place. Saying that if her experiences had been different in the Muggle World, her feelings might be different, is certainly possible. But, if my experiences in my own education had been different, well - then I might well despise Snape's teaching methods rather than supporting them. (-8 To me, it's pretty much a non-argument to suggest that if Hermione's experiences had been different, her views would be different. Sure, they probably would be - but that doesn't, by one iota, change what her views *are*. The only two people we see in any detail who have real experience of both the Wizarding World and the Muggle World, would both, I believe choose to live in the Wizarding World. If it was JKR's intention to make us believe the Wizarding World was inferior to the Muggle one, then I would have expected some real sign of that, 5 books into a 7 book series. I'd have expected her to have shown us a character for whom Muggle life *was* better. She hasn't, so I don't think that's likely to be a major point of the series. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 05:04:58 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:04:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: References: <765805810.20040619213800@vcem.com> Message-ID: <1062259971.20040619220458@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102120 Hi, Saturday, June 19, 2004, 9:51:11 PM, Jason wrote: >> I always thought she used the term "love" very loosely, and >> the wrong "couples" I saw were Harry and Cho, Hermione and >> Krum, and Ron and Fleur. >> >> Or possibly the Ball configurations. >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Susanne > Also possible. Just not what *I* first thought of. :-) I hope it didn't sounds as if I was claiming your opinion is wrong and mine is right! :) That was not my intention at all. They are just different interpretations of the same text, and until JKR clarifies, we won't know for sure what exactly she meant. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com Sun Jun 20 04:36:15 2004 From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com (ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:36:15 EDT Subject: DA Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102121 I'm curious. What exactly was the purpose of the document everybody signed when they joined the DA and were sworn to secrecy? Were they not allowed to talk about it at all, or could they talk about it if they weren't selling the other DA memebers out. My book isn't here, so I can't check what it said when this happned, but Seamus joined later than everybody else. If they couldn't talk about it how were they able to recruit? Could any member find a friend and say, 'Hey, wanna join our topic secret organization?' -Mutt http://www.tradinglinks.com/cgi-bin/classified/classified.cgi?category=antique s27&item=1089332354#OTHER [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jun 20 05:09:33 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:09:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DA Question References: Message-ID: <01e001c45684$c6c64190$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102122 > I'm curious. What exactly was the purpose of the document everybody signed > when they joined the DA and were sworn to secrecy? Were they not allowed to > talk about it at all, or could they talk about it if they weren't selling the > other DA memebers out. My book isn't here, so I can't check what it said when > this happned, but Seamus joined later than everybody else. If they couldn't > talk about it how were they able to recruit? Could any member find a friend and > say, 'Hey, wanna join our topic secret organization?' > > -Mutt There's no canon to support this, but my personal opinion is that the spell is activated by the person's intentions. So, those who were just telling friends about it wouldn't get jinxed but a person who had the intention of selling the group out to Umbridge gets SNEAKed. Alina. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 20 05:36:52 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:36:52 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D48873.27285.25058E8@localhost> Message-ID: <40D5AF14.24843.C0D93D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102123 On 19 Jun 2004 at 18:56, kyntor70 wrote: > I don't think that Snape is a member of the Hogwarts staff because he > is a good teacher (indeed not). I believe that he is there so that > he can be a "useful spy" to Voldemort when he is reborn. Dumbledore > knows that Voldemort was not killed by Harry on Halloween 1981. > Dumbledore expects him to resurface later. I think Dumbledore is > willing to "make do" with a poor Potions Professor for the benefits > that a double agent will give him. I've already addressed this in a previous post a bit, by saying I personally don't believe Dumbledore would keep Snape on unless he was a decent teacher, even if Voldemort is a factor. But I'll just expand on that for a moment. Where is there *any* indication that Snape is a poor Potions Professor? Umbridge - the only person who gives us a direct external opinion says: "'Well, the class seems fairly advanced for their level,' she said briskly to Snape's back. 'Though I would question whether it is advisable to teach them a potion like the Strengthning Solution. I think the Ministry would prefer it if that was removed from the syllabus.'" (OotP, British, p. 323). Note that Umbridge says that the class seems fairly advance at the same time as she is criticising Snape's choice of curriculum - she's not giving him false praise - if anything, the tone of what she is saying suggests that her admission that the class is advanced is rather a grudging one. >From what Snape says in his first class in their OWL year, he is accustomed to a high pass rate - in externally assessed exams. That suggests that his students are competent in quite a difficult subject - we know potions aren't easy, because even a skilled adult wizard like Lupin gets an expert to brew the difficult one. I haven't seen any indication that Snape is a poor Potions Professor. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Let me make it clear in case I haven't been. Snape's treatment of > > Harry is, in every instance where it differs from his treatment of > > other students, indefensible and reprehensible. But Harry is a > > special case, IMHO - Snape's hatred of him is separate to his > > treatment of his other students. > > Kyntor replies: > > Great! We agree! Snape treats Harry different from the students most > of the time. We also see him treat Hermione and Neville differently. Yes, we do - but in their cases, we are probably dealing with the most competent student in the class, and one of the least competent (who has no reason not to be). Snape arguably, shoud be treating them differently (I'm not saying his methods are good ones in their cases - but there's nothing wrong with the fundamental idea of treating them differently). It's only with Harry, that we are given any additional insight into why he is treated differently - and that allows me to say I disagree - because I think I know why it's happening. With Hermione and Neville, I think it's possible, Snape think he's teaching them the correct way to meet their needs - he may be wrong, but his motivations *may be* correct ones. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Well, no, because I don't think treating the Gryffindors in the > > same way he treats the Slytherins would necessarily be the most > > effective way of teaching the Gryffindors. > > Kyntor replies: > > Maybe not, but it can be any worse of a teaching method than the > rancor he currently uses on them. Yes, it can be, and that's kind of been my point over and over again. I learned quite well in classes which had teachers who acted like Snape - far better than I would have in classes where the teacher let me get away with whatever I liked. And I know a lot of other people who did as well. There are far *worse* ways of teaching than those employed by Snape. I've experienced them. > Kyntor replies: > > I don't really know that it is a good idea for a teacher to divide a > class into two seperate "teaching methods" before even the first > class begins. The teacher doesn't know anything about the student's > personalities or individual histories the first time he meets them > (even with them being divided into one of four houses). Not a lot, no - but it's something to work on. It's better than just assuming you're dealing with one homogenous blob of students. > The best method would be to begin teaching a class one way, in a > clear, fair, and strait-forward presentation of the material. Once > the teacher sees students that are having trouble with this method, > he/she should meet with the students and give them the individual > help they need. No, that's *not* the best method for a lot of students. It's certainly often not the best method for any student in the class who is above average. A teacher who does what you are suggesting here will wind up aiming at the entire class achieving average performance. That's not an uncommon practice in schools - but it's a practice that automatically means neglecting the above average students. The inherent assumption in what you have said above is that it's only the students who are having trouble, who need invidual help. That isn't a valid assumption. *Every* child in a class should be learning to their level of potential. That's a personal belief of mine, largely based on being in a school system as a child where this didn't happen, and being hurt by that - but it also seems likely to be the modus operandi at Hogwarts. It's how schooling used to be - and Hogwarts does seem to be a rather old fashioned place. Is the method you describe a valid one - yes, it is? A perfectly valid one for some students. But it's not a good one for all students. In fact, it's one of the methods that caused me considerable pain as a child. *Don't* make the assumption that there's any one single teaching method that works for all children - because there isn't. I don't defend Snape's teaching methods because I think they are the best ones - I don't. I just know from personal experience that sometimes they work for some children. Education should involve students having access to a range of different methods. There's no such thing as any single perfect method. At Hogwarts, we see a range. That's a good thing. Even if some of the methods are less than perfect. Snape's are. So, for that matter, are Binns and Trelawney's, IMHO. I'm defending Snape's methods as *valid* within the broad spectrum of different teaching methods. That isn't the same as saying his methods are the best methods - just that there is a place for them, because some students do learn well from them. > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the > > Gryffindor's marks are, on average, higher than the Slytherins - > > because I think they are generally more likely to work harder, and > > they also don't have Crabbe and Goyle. > > Kyntor replies: > > I agree with you here. Not because of the different "teaching > methods" involved but because of the individual students involved. I > believe that this particular Gryffindor class would always outperform > this particular Slytherin class no matter what reasonable (no setting > children on fire) teaching methods were used. Actually, I've seen a teacher set a child on fire once - not deliberately, but it certainly increased the level of concentration in chemistry classes for the rest of the year (just for the record, the kid wasn't hurt - the labcoat he was wearing did its job) (-8 Just an example though, from one of my Snape teachers. We had two teachers who taught us Latin in the junior school. There were around 120 students, 60 taught by each. It was a random selection in each class. Both teachers taught the same curriculum. One was extremely Snape like - I really mean it in his case - often when I describe my teachers as Snape like, I'm exagerating a bit. But he *really* was. Everyone I know who had him as a teacher and who is familiar with HP, mentions him. The other was much calmer, and much more placid, and his classes were much more pleasant. The Snape teacher produced a situation where *nobody* in his classes got under 92% and the average was 96% the year I had him (this is in a marking system where a mark of 50% was a pass - marks of 90 or more were meant to be very rare). The other teacher had an average of 76%, and a lowest mark of around 53%. Same raw materials - different teaching methods - and a huge difference in results. On statewide comparisons, 'Snape' was also generally regarded as the top teacher for his subject as well, achieving the best results at the higher levels where direct comparison was possible. > No, you are not missing anything. I don't remember JKR overtly > saying anything either. However, I do believe that JKR wants us to > compare and contrast our own society with the one she describes in > her books, and make our own conclusions (this would be a good English > paper). Possibly, yes - but in my case, I think she's doing a very good job of showing us a Wizarding World that is generally more attractive than our own. Not perfect, and not better in every respect - but in many ways, definitely. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 06:07:08 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:07:08 -0000 Subject: Hagrid cleared, too late to learn magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > --- Littlekat: > > I have some thoughts about Hagrid that I shall discuss here. > > Perhaps Hagrid knows more(magic) than we think he knows and > > perhaps he hides his knowledge... > > JKR has said that Hagrid does know more magic that he lets on. > > "mcmaxslb" bboy_mn: Hagrid's expulsion seems to have been more than an action by the school. My read is that the Ministry was involved, and used Hagrid as a convinient excuse to avoid what really happened at the school. Since Hagrid was proven innocent, he is able to expand his work at school, and to use magic more openly; that MORE openly, not completely openly. The school has recognised his innocents, and the people closest to him know the facts, but the Ministry of Magic hasn't taken the action and initiated the paperwork to reverse his orginal conviction. This is not a pressing issue since even the Ministry, when they are on good terms with Dumbledore, are aware that Hagrid performs magic. In fact, they enlist Hagrid's aid in gorwing 20 foot maze hedges in a very short period of time. However, when the Ministry is on bad terms with Dumbledore, they have the power to uphold his original conviction. Sonce Hagrid is a free man, the administrative procedure in not that urgent. However, I predict in the next book, the Ministry will be force to overturn that conviction, and Hagrid will be allowed to buy a new wand. He will not have to complete school. Hagrid has three years of formal training, AND over 50 years of practical experience. He already holds down three jobs, so O.W.L. qualifications are not that important to him. All that remains to bring Hargid into the wizard world as a full fledged member, even without full OWL documentation, is for the Ministy to reverse it's ruling. I believe Dumbledore will finally force them to do just that. Just passing it along. Steve From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 06:12:37 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:12:37 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan .,.. Sirius had to die --- Death Chamber In-Reply-To: <40D42F1A.7060307@rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > ...edited... > > I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads > somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from > the veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it > will take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. > Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) > > > Sheri C. Asian_lovr2: Let's not forget that the room in which Sirius died is called the DEATH CHAMBER. There must be a reason for that. And, Lupin seems thoroughly convinced that Sirius is gone. Sorry for the short post. Steve From grahadh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 06:17:11 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (Dhyana) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:17:11 -0000 Subject: DA Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102126 >Mutt wrote: > I'm curious. What exactly was the purpose of the document everybody >signed when they joined the DA and were sworn to secrecy? Were they not >allowed to talk about it at all, or could they talk about it if they weren't selling >the other DA memebers out. If they couldn't talk about it how were >they able to recruit? ______________________________ The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" (p 346, US edition). But when the list is being passed around and after everyone signed it, there was no mention of the trio signing it. IMO, it sounds as if Hermione passed the parchment around for everybody else to sign, but didn't actually sign it herself or have Harry and Ron sign it. This would possibly leave the three of them free to recruit new members in the future, whom they judged to be trustworthy. -Dhyana From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 20 06:39:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:39:48 -0000 Subject: Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: <002601c45647$be62a8a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: Alina: > If I remember correctly, Percy is the version of Percival that commoners > named their children because they could not give them actual noble names, > but wanted something close to them. I'm sure there were messages about this > years ago, but I couldn't find one through search, sorry. Basically, I think > it's Rowlings' way of pointing out the difference between rich and pureblood > families like the Blacks and Malfoys and the poorer families like the > Weasleys. Geoff: Just off the top of my head without checking. The Weasleys may be poor, but they are a pureblood family aren't they? Poverty doesn't equate with standing. There are lots of aristocratic families in the UK who have become poor through various circumstances but doesn't remove their ancestry.... From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 08:26:51 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:26:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102128 Jason wrote: > Harry is tired of being Harry. I think it's all > going to come down on him and he'll try to get away from being > Harry. I actually think he'll be the rumored person to switch > houses. He'll join up with Slytherin and try to not BE Harry > Potter. In fact, mightn't he, getting away from being Harry, just run away, not as in POA, but really concertedly run away? At the same time think up a way to distract Voldemort from the rest of the witchwizard world, in an attempt to protect those closest to him, as he feels responsible for endangering them. He could get the appropriate information from Figg, about when the Order's guard was down, and off he goes, perhaps with the aid of the twins, say, providing him with a place to get his bearings after running off. He could get The Quibbler to publish believable fake sightings, though his Luna/Hermione connection. (Of course, the whole escapade would lead to complications, and he'd end up being at Hogwarts on Sept. 1 anyway.) In fact, if Potter told Voldemort the whole prophecy, as he knows it, what would change? He Who Couldn't Kill a Little Baby really hasn't had much agenda besides doing the boy in anyway. It's really to Potter's advantage to have that prophecy out in the open, soon enough. Because, the prophecy means, first and foremost, if we take Potter's reading, that Voldemort CAN be defeated, by Scarhead. Under the right circumstances, wouldn't that potentially get Potter a lot of staunch allies? Perhaps he doesn't go alone. Some radical from the Order maybe "helps" him. What I mean is, going over to Slytherin, by itself, doesn't actually accomplish his not being Potter, if not being Potter is what he in fact does. Regarding the kid who might change houses. Another very good bet would be Ron going to Ravenclaw. And THEN asking Hermione on a date. After all, Ron got some brains. Dan ~ music evocative of Rowling's novels members.shaw.ca/darkthirty/music.html ~ From chrissilein at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 08:42:15 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:42:15 -0000 Subject: Who is Moon? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102129 Hi, has got anyone of you an idea who Moon is? Moon is mentioned in SS (page 121 pb) chapter "The Sorting Hat". In which house belongs Moon? Quotation from the book: - There weren?t many people left now. "Moon"... "Nott"... Parkinson"...,....... Greetings From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 12:21:30 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:21:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040620024918.99938.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102130 moonmyyst wrote: Okay, guys, lets look at this objectively. JKR said that Sirius had to die in order for something to happen in book six. Lets put all of our heads together and come up with what changes will take place due to Sirius dying that would not happen if he were alive. 1)anger 2)frustration 3)inheritance 4)sense of loss Thoughts? vmonte responds: I think inheritance will be one of the important factors. There are a lot of interesting things at the Sirius estate. Someone really needs to look through that place, not for cleaning purposes, and see if Kreacher hid anything of importance there. I know some people think that Hagrid has Sirius's motorcycle, but what about DD? He was saving James cloak for Harry. Perhaps he is waiting for the right moment to hand over the motorcycle. I also think that Molly is going to die in book 6. I think that her death is also necessary as a catalyst for Ron to take a more active role in the war. And the children will be allowed to enter the Order now that she is gone. vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 12:40:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:40:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102133 Anasazi wrote: But ask a H/Hr believer like myself and, apparently, mcmaxslb (in her post for "Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP"), and we are going to tell you exactly the opposite because we have "proof" that Hr is in love with H (although he's too thick to notice), with Krum's jealousy over Harry on GoF, and with her kiss on the cheek after a conversation with Krum at the end of GoF, and how she left Ron's very important championship game without so much as a protest to go with Harry and Hagrid to the forest (I'm a H/Hr shipper, and this even hurts me! Specially when we know she hasn't missed a single game of Harry), and her business-like tone when she interrogated him about Cho's kiss. vmonte responds: I think that Ron and Hermione are meant for each other. It would be very rude for Hermione to go to the ball and sit talking, the whole night, to Krum about Ron who she has feelings for. She talks about Harry because he is her friend. If you look closely at GoF the girls always know the truth about who likes who, and the guys are always dead wrong. I can't remember their names but one of the girls that end up going to the ball with Ron and Harry says to Harry: "Ron isn't going with Hermione?" (I'm paraphrasing a lot.) Krum doesn't have a clue because, well, he is a guy. Also, I think that Hermione has realized what her place in the Harry saga is. She has committed herself to be an apostle so to speak, and knows the importance of defeating Voldemort. She is part of the cause for good, and understands her part. She is a very brave girl. vivian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 12:46:05 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:46:05 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102134 Alla wrote : > Of course I will do things the legal way - as a > member of legal profession, taking somebody to court will be an > obvious solution, but people do not always have a right to do what > they want. As soon as what they do touch the rights of the other > person, it stops. Del replies : But how do you define your "rights" ? Isn't it the law that defines them ? For example, in a society that tolerates slavery, it's up to the law to define the rights of both master and slave. Even the "most basic rights" as we now see them, such as the right to live, is not necessarily a given in some societies. Del From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 13:28:44 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620132844.40593.qmail@web20026.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102135 --- mcmaxslb wrote: > --- Susanne wrote: > > > >> In your opinion, but not according to canon, > where Ron and > > Hermione do things together (go to Hogsmeade, > shopping and > > eating ice cream at Diagon Alley, Hermione coming > to the > > Weasleys earlier than Harry...). > > > OK you are right in that Ron and Hermione are > friends now. > I do not deny that. However I stand by saying that > if not for Harry, > Ron and Hermione would not have become friends. > > And if not for Quirrel, Harry and Hermione would never have become friends. That in no way diminishes the relationship between Harry and Hermione or Ron and Hermione. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 13:56:17 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:56:17 -0000 Subject: Who is Moon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > > Hi, > > has got anyone of you an idea who Moon is? Moon is mentioned in SS > (page 121 pb) chapter "The Sorting Hat". In which house belongs Moon? > > Quotation from the book: - There weren?t many people left now. > "Moon"... "Nott"... Parkinson"...,....... > > Greetings So far, this is the only piece of information I have been able to find on Moon, although it is exactly what you said :P Moon b. 1980 Hogwarts student, 1991 - 1998 (SS7) Jacqui From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 14:29:25 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:29:25 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102137 wrote: > Why does VM address PP as Wormtail? Wasn't that just his marauder nickname > in school? Susan now: So sorry if this is confusing. I wanted to address each point separately. This first question is something that struck me immediately. Why _would_ LV call PP Wormtail? It was his nickname, and I doubt the entire school called PP "Wormtail". If the nickname was known by their schoolmates, then why didn't Snape know/figure out who had made the map? (GoF). Particularly since the map insults him! Since SS went to school with the Marauders, if the nickname was that popular, it seems to me he of all people would have known. But SS doesn't know, even though he went to school with these guys, and yet LV does know! Legilimens? Further, why would PP _want_ to be called that anymore? If *I* were a huge traitor who did all those horrible things to the people who were my best friends in school, I really don't think I'd want to be called by the nickname they gave me. Seems like it would be a constant painful reminder of what a great coward I am. The only thought I have there is that perhaps LV, sadist that he is, uses the nickname as a constant reminder to PP that PP should always be aware of where his loyalties lie. Barbara: > Why did Moody/Crouch turn Malfoy into a ferret, or was that to prove he > (Moody) is a "good" guy? Actually, I think I can answer that myself, since > Barty Jr. holds a grudge against all the DEs that escaped prosecution and > weren't "faithful" to VM. Susan: My opinion is that Moody wanted to get on Harry's good side, though I like what you're saying re:LM et al. But the real bummer for me was the fact that Moody _wasn't_ Moody, because I thought he was really really cool. I'd love to see the Real!Moody be the new DADA teacher, but I doubt that he will just because being a great auror, he probably has a lot of work to do now that all hell's breaking loose with the dementors, etc. > Barbara: > It's also clear to me that Snape is a double agent, that DD trusts him > because he went from being a DE (or maybe was even faking that for VM) to > being a spy, and he will be accepted by the DEs again, even though he didn't > show up at VM's rebirth, because he can say he was maintaining his cover as > a spy, not letting DD know anything was going on. > Susan: Why is it clear, to you and everyone else but me, that SS is _still_ a double agent? I don't see how anyone who's even remotely connected to the school or to LV could possibly think that SS is still loyal in any way to LV. I get it that since he didn't show up in the graveyard scene in GoF that his absence could easily be explained by the fact that no one can apparate on/off the Hogwarts grounds, but why would anyone still expect him to show up there? Barbara: I also loved how Snape and McGonagall really do act as > DD's right-hand men, they don't question him when he directs them to do > something and they are completely loyal and trusting of him, as he > apparently is of them. Susan: Again, SS and McG _are_ unquestionably loyal to DD, so why oh why would anyone think SS is even still capable of being a spy for DD? The only thing I can think of here is that I'm right, you all are wrong ;-) his cover really is blown, and something to reveal this is going to happen to SS in book 6. Barbara: > I am forced to wonder yet again how a movie of GOF can possibly be made with > out scaring the bejesus out of everyone under 10! I mean, I know some kids > are allowed to watch cartoon violence and stuff that's obviously made with > special effects and all, but VM putting the Cruciatus curse on people, > Wormtail cutting off his own hand, etc... That's all seriously disturbing > stuff! I fear that the directing/writing team won't do justice to the > all-important graveyard scene because of the kids in the audience. Ideally, > I'd think that making an accurate representation of the book into a movie > would require an "R" rating, and they won't want to have a "R" rating for it > if they want to market it primarily to kids. Susan now: I totally agree and being an adult would have no problem with a rated R version. However, I doubt _that_ will happen. When I was little I wouldn't go into the castle at Disney World because the wicked witch was in there! And I already knew how the story ended!! What I'd really like to know is how they're going to keep it between 2-3 hours! There's loads of information in GoF that, IMHO, will not be able to be so conveniently left out like so much of the info in PoA that was skipped. Barbara: > I felt SO bad for Harry. What an ordeal to go through. And who knows how > much of his acting out and anger in OOTP isn't at least partly a result of > his trauma at the end of GOF. After all, right after that he's left alone > for most of the summer (IIRC. . .if I don't, I apologize- -I'm about to read > OOTP) to deal with his memories of that night. That was a pretty horrible > experience and he gets virtually no support almost immediately after it > happens. > > I have changed my mind about POA being my favorite book. I think GoF is now. > I've read it at least 3-4 times now and for some reason, in the past, I > always thought it was too complicated. But I followed things much better now > regarding what Barty Crouch, Jr. did and how things happened, and at the end > I had tears in my eyes when Lily and James come out of the wand. > > I reserve the right to add to my comments if I think of anything else. :^) > Susan again: I have read and reread all of the books over and over, yet I still can't bring myself to reread OoP yet. I read it, then reread it, hoping that I was just unbelievably wasted, or confused, or having a nightmare, but no. So, as soon as I get through the others, I'm going to reread it, but Sirius' death really bums me out, and for numerous reasons. Having said that, I think GoF is my favorite. Great action, Moody's really cool (til the end of course) lots of information is revealed, the jokes are more mature, I could go on for quite some time... Susan (who really wanted to add her two knuts...again, and again, and again...;-) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 14:35:06 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620143506.3965.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102138 dan wrote: I think it's all > going to come down on him and he'll try to get away from being Harry. I actually think he'll be the rumored person to switch houses. He'll join up with Slytherin and try to not BE Harry Potter. In fact, mightn't he, getting away from being Harry, just run away, not as in POA, but really concertedly run away? At the same time think up a way to distract Voldemort from the rest of the witchwizard world, in an attempt to protect those closest to him, as he feels responsible for endangering them. He could get the appropriate information from Figg, about when the Order's guard was down, and off he goes, perhaps with the aid of the twins, say, providing him with a place to get his bearings after running off. He could get The Quibbler to publish believable fake sightings, though his Luna/Hermione connection. (Of course, the whole escapade would lead to complications, and he'd end up being at Hogwarts on Sept. 1 anyway.) In fact, if Potter told Voldemort the whole prophecy, as he knows it, what would change? He Who Couldn't Kill a Little Baby really hasn't had much agenda besides doing the boy in anyway. It's really to Potter's advantage to have that prophecy out in the open, soon enough. Because, the prophecy means, first and foremost, if we take Potter's reading, that Voldemort CAN be defeated, by Scarhead. Under the right circumstances, wouldn't that potentially get Potter a lot of staunch allies? Perhaps he doesn't go alone. Some radical from the Order maybe "helps" him. What I mean is, going over to Slytherin, by itself, doesn't actually accomplish his not being Potter, if not being Potter is what he in fact does. Regarding the kid who might change houses. Another very good bet would be Ron going to Ravenclaw. And THEN asking Hermione on a date. After all, Ron got some brains. Dan Suppose that it is not changing houses but actually a Slytherin that helps with the running away? I do not see the evil trio but maybe this is where Knott comes in? I can see this as being the reason why he does not stay on Privet Drive very long this time. moonmyyst (who just had a black long-haired show dog get into white paint less than 2 months from the start of show season!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 14:45:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:45:09 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102139 Darrin wrote : > The overwhelming majority of the DEs are Slytherin. Del replies : Maybe, but we don't know that the majority of Slytherins are DEs, and this is a BIG BIG BIG difference. You remind me of some old people I knew who were convinced that all Germans were evil. Most Nazis were Germans, granted, but most Germans were not Nazis. But because almost all the Nazis they'd met were Germans, those old people just assumed that all Germans were as bad. So that if a German kid came in their grandkid's school as an exchange student, they would forbid their grandkid from associating with him. If Germans tourists came to spend the summer in their village, they would discreetly campaign to have them expelled, saying all sorts of horrible things about Germans, and spreading fear and hate in as many hearts as they could. And the worst thing of all, is that they were sure they were doing what was *right*. because all Germans are Nazis at heart, right ? And all Slytherins are DEs at heart, right ? Wrong. Draco might be some kind of junior DE, and Pansy seems to like being nasty, but that's pretty much it. Crabbe and Goyle would follow anyone who could buy them. Theo Nott and Blaise Zabini have never been heard of. Millicent Bulstrode seems to be nothing more than a female Crabbe. And the gang of Slytherin girls that Pansy keeps making laugh have not even been broken apart into individuals by Harry, which says a lot about their personal nastiness. And nobody from the other years seems to be anywhere as nasty as Draco. Honestly, if *Draco* is the top in nastiness that Slytherin can create, then I say the DEs have reason to worry : the next generation won't bring them any interesting nor strong fresh blood. Darrin wrote : > The DEs play around in hoods, torture Muggles for sport, casually > drop the word mudblood, which is an obvious parallel to the "N" word > and use their political power to keep minorities down. > > The parallels, both in actions, rituals, physical appearance and > culture, are obvious. Del replies : I agree that the DEs are horrible, they are meant to be. But they are a *minority*. And much more important : they are a product of their society. They might have a lot of money and political power, but that's only because the whole WW society is *corrupted*. Malfoy couldn't bribe Fudge if Fudge wasn't corruptible. Draco couldn't act the way he does if the teachers and the students set him straight each time he acts up. Snape couldn't abuse his students if he were punished for it. It's the whole WW society which is going down, and the DEs are only the most visible part of it. Kneasy wrote : > > Tell us how many people the kids of Slytherin House have killed, > > tortured and driven from their homes. Not DEs, 'cos they're not > > exclusively Slytherin, (Peter, remember?). Perhaps they sneak out > > at Hogsmead weekends and terrorise neighbourhoods, 12 year old > > proto-wizards swigging Butterbeer and bragging about how they're > > going to stop Hermione from attending Hogwarts by blowing up the > > train tracks. Darrin answered : > Give them time. They'll get there. Del replies : Maybe they will. So why is the WW giving them time ? Those kids might have bad parents, but they go to a boarding school at the age of 11. If, when they get out of it at the age of 18, *almost all of them* STILL think the same way they did when they entered, I'm afraid all the fault can't be put on the parents. Darrin wrote : > "Light" bullying. Now we have degrees of it. Is there no argument > you won't resort to in order to mitigate how loathsome the > Slytherins are? > > Tell me, what is "heavy" bullying? Del replies : Yes, let's discuss the degrees of bullying, and then let's have a poll to ask how many of our members NEVER indulged in some degree of bullying ! Honestly, how many of us never made fun of the nerd in our class ? How many of us never called a girl fat just to make her sad ? How many of us never commented on the acne of a guy ? How many of us never refused to associate or to be seen with certain people ? (I did do some of those, though not all) Bullying, to various degrees, is a part of childhood and adolescence. Teenagers, in particular, like to make others look bad in order to make themselves look better. It's sad, but it's normal. I've always been fat, and I had to endure horrible bullying because of it. And one thing I discovered was that *teachers* and other adults were important : if the kids got told off for bothering me, half of them would be less tempted to do it again, because somehow, they knew deep inside that it wasn't nice and hearing the adult say so was enough to make them ashamed. So yes Draco bullies a lot. But why isn't anyone in charge doing anything about it ? It took only ONE DAY, if I remember correctly, for Fake!Moody to put Draco back in his place !! Darrin wrote : > Muggle-borns ARE a separate race or bloodline. The Slytherins > obviously think so, but even the Gryffindors and others think so. > > Hagrid: "You don't have to be pureblood." > > Ron: "We intermarried long ago." > > The difference is, like most folks with all their functioning > chromosomes, the Weasleys don't see any problem with Muggle-borns > having the same rights as pureblood wizards. Del replies : It's the wizards that built the WW. I understand that some of them might not appreciate having to share it with kids who come out of nowhere but can get all the benefits of it right away. It's not charitable, but it's understandable. The same thing happens in many RL cultures : the first generation of immigrants is rarely considered full-citizens of the nation they come in (I'm not talking legally, but mentally). It's usually with the second generation, or even only with the third, that the family is considered completely integrated. As for the Muggles themselves, some wizards might like them, but they don't have any *respect* for them. Any time a wizard talks about the Muggles, it always strikes me how they seem to be talking either about animals or children. The Muggles have to be protected, they have to be kept ignorant, they are less talented and have to cope as best they can, and so on. There doesn't seem to be a single wizard, not even Arthur Weasley, who oinsiders the Muggles to be at the same level at the wizards. This reminds me strongly of the attitude of the western cultures towards the African peoples a few centuries ago. The whites (to make it simple), well the best of them anyway, had this horribly patronizing attitude towards the blacks : poor things, look in what awful conditions they live, look how undeveloped they are, they obviously have none of our intelligence and skills and technology, we have to protect them, we have to help them, even though they will never be as developed and cultured as we are, poor things. The worst whites just thought the blacks were fun game to hunt and kill, potential slaves, or parasites to be eliminated. Does that remind you of anything ? JKR sure knows what she's doing, and it's very brilliant. Darrin wrote : > Lucius Malfoy tried to manipulate events so that Arthur Weasley and > his Muggle-protection bill failed. I suggest re-reading Chamber of > Secrets if you want more information. Del replies : And one of the reasons for the Secession War was slavery, if I'm not mistaken. Or more exactly the fact that some crazy people were trying to change the law in order to protect a group of people who had always been thought of as inferiors. Some people went to war to protect their right to be inhuman with other human beings. Come to think of it, Lucius Malfoy would look good in a Sudist uniform, wouldn't he ? Darrin wrote : > I'll be happy to take a break if you'd stop calling other people's > ideas silly. Del replies : What about *you* Darrin stop assimilating people who don't think like you to abysmally stupid would-be criminals ? And if that's not what you're doing, then I suggest you choose your words more carefully : you made *me* look like I was either incurably stupid for not understanding that you were right and I was wrong, or willingly evil-intended with an agenda to make bad look good and vice-versa. I'm a pretty open person, I have been known to change my mind when given good arguments, and I don't even like Snape and Draco. So what's going on there ?? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 14:51:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:51:33 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102140 Kneasy wrote : > > GoF chap 31 - > > Mrs Weasley grinned her eyes twinkling. > > "Your father and I had been out for a night-time stroll," she > > said. "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle - he was the caretaker in > > those days - your father's still got the marks." Alla answered : > Thank you, but marks from what? Del replies : Come on Alla :-) I'll grant you the rest if you will, but you have to admit that whatever leaves marks that last *that* long can't be nice ? Whether it was beating or something else, it must have been quite tough, to leave such marks, which was the point Kneasy was trying to make. Del From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 20 15:02:39 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 Jun 2004 15:02:39 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1087743759.18.83185.m25@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102141 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 20, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 15:09:23 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:09:23 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102142 Susan wrote: Why _would_ LV call PP Wormtail? It was his nickname, and I doubt the entire school called PP "Wormtail". If the nickname was known by their schoolmates, then why didn't Snape know/figure out who had made the map? (GoF). Particularly since the map insults him! Since SS went to school with the Marauders, if the nickname was that popular, it seems to me he of all people would have known. But SS doesn't know, even though he went to school with these guys, and yet LV does know! Legilimens? vmonte replies: I think that Snape knew wormtail's name as well. I think that when Snape sees the map the reason he shows it to Lupin is because he thinks or suspects that Harry got the map from him. We even hear James and gang calling each other by their animagus nicknames in Snape's penseive memories (that is if this is really Snape's memory). vivian From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 20 15:13:33 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:13:33 -0000 Subject: Snape/Sorting H/Snp/Nott/Sn /Sort'g Neville/Invent'n/James/F+G/S/F+G/Boggart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102143 Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101154 : Pippin: << Entering the willow after he found Harry's cloak and knew he might be inside with a suspected Death Eater (PoA) >> Alla: << Sorry, I think he was operating in the mode revenge first, children's safety - later. >> Pippin: << Sorry, but I don't follow. If he didn't think he was going to find evidence that Lupin was endangering the children, then there wouldn't be any way to get revenge, would there? >> Catlady: Evidence that Lupin was aiding Black, or even keeping silent his knowledge that could help catch Black, would make Lupin some kind of accessory after the fact, thus getting him sent to Azkaban even if the children were in no danger. Catching Black, even with no evidence to be used against Lupin, would get Black the Dementors' Kiss. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101179 : << The Sorting Hat said Slytherin would make him great. Can anyone work out how that would have played? I cannot imagine Harry Potter in the Slytherin dorm with Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Especially with Snape as the Head of House. >> If Harry had been Sorted into Slytherin, Draco would have been happy to be be his buddy ... not just to carry out his father's instruction to get close to HP, but because HP is a celebrity and Draco wants to share his fame. With Draco as buddy, Crabbe and Goyle would have been his goons instead of his enemies. Some say, but Draco already hated Harry for the insult on the train. I say, if Harry had guided by ambition (which is what would have led to him choosing Slytherin in order to become 'great'), he would have made up with Draco because Malfoy money and political influence might come in handy one day. If Harry had been Sorted into Slytherin, Snape would have had a hard time with his canonical favoritism of all Slythies warring with being constantly reminded of James by Harry's appearance. But it is PS/SS canon that Harry was trying to be a good student when Snape started taunting him in that first Potions class. Snape could probably restrain himself from unprovoked taunting of a *Slythie*, so Harry would not have come to hate him, so Snape might well have come to like him because his Quidditch skills brought glory to Slytherin House. Btw I agree with Dawn http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101228 that the Hat didn't realy *want* to put Harry in Slytherin -- I think it was teasing him, altho' I allow as how it might have been testing him. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: << The moment when I really hated Snape was when he would not let Harry find Dumbledore in GoF when Harry found Crouch on the grounds of Hogwarts. I still cannot for the life of me understand why Snape not only delayed Harry, but seemed to enjoy it. True, Harry was not about to be punished, but Snape was just plain mean here. >> I also read that as literal, and it made me really doubt Snape's loyalty to DD (as by GoF Snape would have realized that when HP wants to see DD, he has something DD wants to hear about). But someone on this list -- maybe Pip!Squeak, I don't remember -- straightened me out. Harry had been about to give up and go to the staff room when Snape appeared and kept Harry there for DD to find (no doubt deriving some pleasure from verbally torturing him during the wait). It's that same Chapter 28 of GoF: "Sher-sherbet lemon!" he panted at it. This was the password to the hidden staircase to Dumbledore's office -- or, at least, it had been two years ago. The password had evidently changed, however, for the stone gargoyle did not spring to life and jump aside, but stood frozen, glaring at Harry malevolently. "Move!" Harry shouted at it. "C'mon!" But nothing at Hogwarts had ever moved just because he shouted at it; he knew it was no good. He looked up and down the dark corridor. Perhaps Dumbledore was in the staff room? He started running as fast as he could towards the staircase -- "POTTER!" Harry skidded to a halt and looked around. Snape had just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle. The wall was sliding shut behind him even as he beckoned Harry back towards him. "What are you doing here, Potter?" Dolies wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101211 : << Also prior to OOP, Theodore Nott's name made an appearance among the list of names who checked out "Quidditch Through the Ages." >> As "T. Nott", which I thought was going to be Tiberias. Instead, we get Tiberias Ogden on the Wizengamot. (Which I thought was going to be the Witchingamot.) Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101327 : << it sort of explains why Snape doesn't seem to begrudge Karkaroff for naming him...assuming Snape knows. >> I've always assumed that Snape doesn't begrudge Karkaroff for naming him because Snape named Karkaroff, which is why Karkaroff was in Azkaban and needed to talk his way out. Bufo Viridis wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101355 : << I am pretty sure Neville didn't argue with Hat >> I, on the other hand, deeply feel that Neville DID argue with that hat. Canon says: "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." I envision that time spent on Neville thinking urgently: "I don't deserve to be in Gryffindor; surely you must mean Hufflepuff" until the Hat finally wears him down with: "If you didn't have courage, would you be arguing with a thousand-year-old magical artifact?" John Hatch wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101661 : << Here's where we get into a bit foggier area. I think canon implies quite clearly that advanced wizards (pretty much DD and Voldemort) can create their own spells and magic. >> The May '04 Wizard of the Month on Rowling's website was Felix Summberbee 1447 - 1508 who invented Cheering Charms. Jacqui wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101696 : << James was a Chaser, so why was he always playing with the Snitch?>> We know from QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES that the Golden Snitch was invented by Bowman Wright who lived in Godric's Hollow. It is plausible that he made a lot of money from his invention. It is plausible that the reason the Potters hid in Godric's Hollow was that the old Potter homestead was there. Therefore, it is plausible that Bowman Wright was the source of the fortune that James inherited. So maybe he played with the Golden Snitch to remind girls of his wealth. Snow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/101926 : << Fred and George Prewett...F&G... and Fabian and Gideon Prewett... F&G. >> I never thought of that! But to me it indicates that Fred & George were Molly's sons, not that they were Molly's nephews. I'm thinking, it might have seemed good to Molly to name twin sons Fabian and Gideon after her brothers (especially if her brothers happened to be twins) and then she changed the names when her brothers were killed, to avoid weeping each time she said her sons' names or whatever. Del started a long thread in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101898 : << Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark Arts and seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life so to speak. He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and light, and seems to prefer darkness and cruelty. And I'm wondering : what's wrong with that ? Isn't he entitled to choose as he wants ? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but so what ? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he chooses ? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to fight him and prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes darkness rather than light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what Higher Rule is he breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force ? >> SSSusan answered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101919 : << Knee-jerk reaction from me is "citizenship." That is, I don't believe one has to believe in a Higher Force in order to believe that one should behave in "good" or "moral" ways. (I work w/ someone who *wishes* she could believe in a Higher Being but just can't...but she's certainly a very "moral" person and upright citizen, "doing good" where she can and trying never to harm others.) There may not be the same COMPULSION or the same RATIONALIZATION for being good, but there may well be an alternate moral structure based on...who knows what? The golden rule? Good citizenship? I'm sure there is sniggering & eye-rolling out there at that word "citizenship," but seriously, I mean it. If all people simply watch out for themselves only and no one else, aren't we close to anarchy? Even people with a "dark outlook" may not want that. Anarchy is absolute freedom to some people's way of thinking, but it's also absolute "on your own"-ness; there's no protection for you or yours beyond what you can provide. I think many people who don't believe in a Higher Being *do* believe in a civilized world and in doing "what's right." >> Kneasy answered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101930 : << Del's right, everyone is entitled and allowed to be bad. It's one of those choices that DD is whittering on about. Just so long as you accept responsibility for the consequences. >> I personally agree with SSSusan, but I consider that the wizards like "the war of all against all" better than I do -- with their magic powers, they don't need as much co-operation with other people to get things done as us Muggles. I think Kneasy here speaks for the wizarding world (except that word 'responsibility' can mean so many things). Part of my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100221 says: << To me, the wizards in the Potterverse don't have any agreement that good is good or evil is evil. They view it much more as a personal choice, like preferring "liberal" or "conservative" in politics is for Muggles. That may have something to do with why the wizarding government is always making laws and rarely enforcing them. The good wizards and the evil wizards will co-operate to keep their world hidden from Muggles or to have on-going competition in Quidditch, but to me, then they fall into dispute over whether one wizard who murdered another wizard should be sent to Azkaban, or was it the victim's fault for being such a fool as to be deceived by that trap, or too weak at magic to fight his way out? >> Abbet wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/101976 : << I was just rereading CoS and was wondering how a five year old Fred could have changed Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider? I knew Fred and George were talented, but this talented? >> Am I the only person who read "It's not funny," said Ron, fiercely. "If you must know, when I was three, Fred turned my - my teddy bear into a great big fiIthy spider because I broke his toy broomstick .... You wouldn't like them either if you'd been holding your bear and suddenly it had too many legs and ... " to mean that Fred's anger caused unintentional magic like Harry's anger caused blowing up Aunt Marge? Barbara bd-bear wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102104 : << However, in GoF, when Harry meets the boggart-dementor in the maze, he performs the Patronus Charm, then realizes that he's not fighting a dementor, but a boggart and uses the Riddikulus charm. "There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke." GoF 623 Now, how is this possible? Boggarts are supposed to be best fought when more than one person is together so that they can get confused by the different people's fears. In addition, you're supposed to change the shape-shifter into something funny when you say "Riddikulus" so you can then laugh at it. That's what is supposed to get rid of it permanently. Harry is alone and doesn't laugh, so how can the boggart be gone? >> My understanding is that Harry *had* forced the Boggart into doing something funny, i.e. tripping on the hem of its Dementor robe, without even consciously noticing. Then he was full of laughter (at least internally) when he shouted: "You're a Boggart!" Laughing with relief that it was a much lesser monster than a Dementor, laughing at himself for having been deceived, laughing at the Boggart for tripping. I don't thing there's an inconsistency with Lupin's lesson. From toast2 at cox.net Sun Jun 20 09:57:43 2004 From: toast2 at cox.net (toast02895) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:57:43 -0000 Subject: Book Vs. Movie Sorcerer's Stone Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102144 "Susan" wrote: snip > While I have no idea what the answer is, and I hope it's not to make > Hagrid seem stupid, Moony in the books is spelled Mooney in PoA > movie. Flub? > Susan :-) Somewhat off topic because it is related to movie and not the books, but according to the trivia section of the Internet Movie Data Base, the misspelling of Moony as Mooney was a deliberate in-joke. The name of the visual effects supervisor for the film was Karl Mooney. Tony From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 15:24:10 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:24:10 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <20040620024918.99938.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102145 wrote: > > > katiegryffindor wrote: > I read a Rowling interview where she says that Sirius has to die in order for something to happen in book six . She had no choice but to kill him. > > > Okay, guys, lets look at this objectively. JKR said that Sirius had to die in order for something to happen in book six. Lets put all of our heads together and come up with what changes will take place due to Sirius dying that would not happen if he were alive. > > 1)anger > 2)frustration > 3)inheritance > 4)sense of loss > > Thoughts? > > moonmyyst Inheritance...oh yes. Definitely loads of magical stuff in 12 GP. However, if Harry needed some neat thing, whether dark magic or white, Sirius would know what all was in his house and just give whatever it was to Harry. The house itself: Again, if Harry needed to use the house, Sirius wouldn't have to die just so Harry could use/have it. So, anger, frustration, and sense of loss. Hmmm. Lots of people here point to these feelings as what made Harry able to stave off LV in the MoM. Plus, as most have also pointed out, if JKR's following any kind of traditional literary pattern, in particular one related to a hero's journey, then Harry's got to have some sort of downward spiral before he can realize what it means to be a hero. Also, and here's what I really think JKR meant... Harry's going to want/need someone to fill Sirius' place. Now regardless if he's a ESE!Remus or not, I think it will be Remus who steps in and tries to fill Sirius' shoes. I'm hoping for the ESG!Remus, but either one would work nicely. I also think that if Remus stepped up to befriend Harry in a more fatherly/brotherly way, that it would help Remus with his own issues. He's not a coward, even though we all know JKR said he has a strong desire to be liked, and IMO, he's quite level-headed and compassionate. Perhaps by becoming closer to Harry, he will have to learn to be stern with Harry in a way that he was unable to do with James and Sirius when Remus was a prefect. Further, since we already know he's in the Order, being even more emotionally connected with Harry will raise the stakes for him. And of course, the obvious...Remus is the only Marauder left. He's the only one who can tell Harry about his parents in a way no one else really can. And somewhere in the info that he can impart to Harry about his parents, the secret-keeper switch, etc., obviously (IMHO)there's some very very important piece of information that will help Harry understand what needs to be done to finally rid the WW of LV. Susan :-) From townsend3 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 10:01:33 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:01:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102146 Peter Shea > > Am I the only surprised that JKR believes the answer is an easy one > > to work out since there are many diligent amateur Potterists who have > > analyzed the textual evidence who cannot answer the question beyond a > > shadow of a doubt? I had begun to believe that JKR wanted this > > question to be hard to answer. "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Hi, Peter. I believe the same way you do... I think JKR did want this > question to be hard to answer. *snip* > So you see, the so called "proof" is ambiguous at best and can be > manipulated to our heart's content. > > JKR might try to hide the fact that she made Hermione's object of > affection ambiguous on purpose... but we know better! > > She knows what she's doing... and is loving every minute of it! > > Cheers, > Anasazi > -who feels strangely proud of finally making her first post on this > list. Tara here: This is my first post too. (I can't believe I hadn't started following this group sooner - I love discussing the books with intelligent people!) I'm not trying to get into the whole H/Hr v. R/Hr, because hasn't that been done to death, but I do think people find "proof" of what they want to find. When reading the first three books, I had assumed that Harry and Hermione were destined for each other because the hero always gets the girl, right? However, when I read GoF, I noticed that the evidence seemed to be pointing distinctly at R/Hr (regardless of what I might personally have wanted). Now, I could have been stubborn and continued to interpret things the way I had imagined they should be, or I could relax and let JKR's master plan become more apparent. I think some people are not as open to seeing what the text is telling them because it's not what they want to see. We know that Jo doesn't want things to be too conventional (like Harry getting the main girl, Hermione), so it would still be her little twist to have Ron and Hermione get together in the end, even if many of us saw it coming. By the way, I think the most conclusive evidence is when Jo told Katie Couric that it would be R/Hr and not H/Hr as Katie believed (I apologize if that has already been discussed to death here). But by all means, pursue the ship of your choice. I personally like Draco/Hermione, but I knew it would never happen in canon long before Jo confirmed it. Sorry, tangent there. Anyway, JKR seems to love the fact that we're all here pulling the text apart and analyzing it nine ways from Sunday, so why should she make it easy for us and simply say "X is going to happen" unless she has a motive for planting particular information? (side note to that: she broadcast it widely that someone was going to die in OotP, so that every time one of the important characters was in a life-threatening situation we were thinking, "Is it him? Is it her?" and she put a lot them in peril at one point or another. Without her manipulating us, we might not have been too worried.) I think my point is getting muddied in my enthusiasm to discuss everything at once, but I agree with you that "proof" is in the eye of the beholder. Ciao! From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 11:32:49 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:32:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D5AF14.24843.C0D93D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102147 > Dreadnought wrote: > > > Well, no, because I don't think treating the Gryffindors in the > > same way he treats the Slytherins would necessarily be the most > > effective way of teaching the Gryffindors. > > Kyntor replies: > > Maybe not, but it can be any worse of a teaching method than the > rancor he currently uses on them. >>>Dreadnought wrote: Yes, it can be, and that's kind of been my point over and over again. I learned quite well in classes which had teachers who acted like Snape - far better than I would have in classes where the teacher let me get away with whatever I liked. And I know a lot of other people who did as well. There are far *worse* ways of teaching than those employed by Snape. I've experienced them.<<<<<<<<<<<<<< bd-bear: You consistently contrast Snape with teachers who would "let you get away with whatever you liked." But don't you see a middle ground here? For example, IMO McGonagall doesn't let the students get away with stuff. She's very strict, the students know that and yet they respect her. She doesn't single someone out and verbally attack them or sabotage their work. (Okay, she's made snide comments about Neville, she's not perfect.) But she's not abusive the way Snape is. She doesn't accuse the students of doing things without proof (or a sufficient chance to explain), she doesn't act like she has a vendetta against them, as Snape does with Harry. That is a teacher I could respect. Maybe I wouldn't LOVE how strict she is, if I was her student, but I wouldn't think she was unfair or abusive, which is what I think Snape is. Also, with all due respect, just because there are worse ways of teaching, in your opinion, does NOT justify Snape's methods of teaching. I grant you this is the WW, and JKR wrote things this way for a purpose, which is why I don't get in these debates much. But I am alarmed when I read your posts as it seems you are advocating some excessively harsh teaching methods. Really none of us on this list know what you went through or can say what did and didn't work for you. We can only speak to the HP world, and as far as that world goes, Snape DOES abuse Harry and Neville, he DOES disrespect them, he DOES unfairly punish them and that is what a lot of people are reacting to. I personally can't see how anybody with a real-live Snape-like teacher could benefit from that. Barbara bd-bear From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 20 12:41:19 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:41:19 -0000 Subject: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102148 I'm afraid this isn't entirely canon but please bear with me. In Philosopher's Stone Dumbledore makes the comment about having been put off Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans by coming across a vomit flavour one in his youth. Now, I've just been replaying the Philopher's Stone game in which there is a side quest to collect wizard cards and I remembered that Bertie Bott was on one of the cards. I checked his dates and his card says that he was born in 1935, at which time Dumbledore would have been around 85. Not 'in his youth' even by wizard standards. So, unless a mistake has been made in the game, Dumbledore MUST have gone back in time. Aha!!! "hettiebe" From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 20 13:35:49 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:35:49 -0000 Subject: Fishing... (Warning time-travel related) about Marchbanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102149 "hettiebe": > > Just a thought...IF Ron (or Percy) is Dumbledore, who is > > Aberforth? Gautam: > Dumbledore is neither Ron (or Percy) but either George or Fred, > and Aberforth is ther other twin. & according to the canon both DD > & Aberforth display enough Mischievous traits to be the legendary > Weasley twins. I like this idea. Their rather trashy dress sense seems to match. See Fred and George in Dragon Skin jackets and Dumbledore in everything he wears. Now that they have left school it would also avoid the problem of meeting up with yourself and being taken back to oringinal point, a la Prisoner of Azkhaban. Last point not checked against canon but I guess you know what I mean. Also read my message about discovery re Dumbledore and Bertie Botts Beans. "hettiebe" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 15:34:04 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:34:04 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102150 Darrin wrote : > I'm familiar with the concept of changing the rules, having read > numerous "Draco is just being picked on, but Harry is REALLY mean -- > look how he treats the Creeveys!" posts on this list. Del replies : I used the example of the Creevey brothers in one specific instance, to make one specific point. I'd appreciate if you stopped accomodating them to any point you want to make, especially when it's not related whatsoever to the original point I was trying to make. Thank you. Kneasy wrote : > > My tenets: > > You are responsible for your actions. > > You must accept responsibility for any consequences arising from > > those actions. Darrin answered : > So... any fallout from any abuse, be it Harry's, Neville's or > Snape's, is ultimately the fault of THAT person, rather than the > subterranean layers of hate built up through abuse. > > Good. Excellent. I like that. > > And my first application of the rules is: > > Get. > > Over. > > It. > > Snape. > > Now. > > That felt good! Del replies : I'm not sure I get your point. Kneasy was saying that people who do bad things have to own up to them and deal with the consequences, and you deduce of this that Snape should get over (what, exactly ?) Snape wasn't the main person responsible for being up to his eyes in the Dark Arts when he was 11 (no more is Draco by the way). He wasn't responsible for being ugly. He wasn't responsible for LV's actions. In the Pensieve scene, he wasn't responsible for James ans Sirius bullying him. On the other hand, he *was* responsible for becoming a DE, and he owned up to that, changing sides at great personal risk. He was responsible for owing James a life-debt, and he tried to repay it. Now, he's not responsible that Harry goes roaming in the school at night, or keeps breaking rules. Yes, Snape might be looking actively for opportunities to frame Harry, but it's still Harry who's ultimately responsible for getting caught into tricky situations by Snape. Whatever his reasons, no matter how good they are, he still keeps breaking rules, and has to face the fact that Snape has the right to punish him for that. Not nice, not fair, but not unfair either. Even McGonagall does it sometimes. After all, Harry does get rewarded for the good he does while breaking rules, so why would it be unfair that he also gets punished for breaking the rules in the first place ? Action - reaction, that's a law of nature. Darrin wrote : > Actually, Harry HAD shown flashes, glimpses of promise, and Snape > did not exploit them. Never once do we see TEACHING from Snape. We > see "close your mind," "master your emotions," "defend yourself" or > essentially, "How come you're not getting it?" Del replies : Not true. After Harry manages to repel Snape, Snape tells him that he hasn't done too poorly. Then he explains that to do better Harry needs to remain focused, and to let go of his emotions. Then he explains that by merely thinking of things he fears, Harry actually gives Snape weapons. Nobody ever pretended that learning Occlumency was easy. Apparently, the only way to resist a Legilimens is to empty your mind of all dreadful emotions and memories. This is *extremely* hard, much harder than summoning a happy memory, which was already considered extrememly difficult. This is probably why there are so few Occlumens around : because the number of people who can close their minds is so small. I'd say it's a natural thing, just like Metamorphaging. Even in RL, we know that some people are good at hiding their emotions, but they are rare. Most of us fail, when we try. But if we asked someone who does it masterfully, what do you think they would counsel us to do ? Do you think they could tell us more useful stuff than "close your minds" or "master your emotions" and "practice, practice, practice !" ? Darrin wrote : > This is where I sometimes think Snape defenders are defending just > to defend. I really wonder how folks deal with the Snapes in their > lives. My guess is not with the same open-minded stance, once it's > applied to the real world. Del replies : How I deal with them ? I don't. I avoid them like the cholera. And if I really have to deal with them, I keep my ground. I let them do what they want, until they step on my toes. Then I use the "legal" means at my disposal to get them put straight. I don't go looking for fight, but if I do find myself in a fight, I don't lose time doing it on my own : I go and complain to whoever is in charge around. Darrin wrote : > Is it Snape's "right" to behave like an arrogant berk? Sure. > > Just so long as he doesn't go whining about being thanked on bended > knee any longer. Del replies : You're mixing up issues here. IMO Snape should be blamed when he's acting like a berk, and thanked when he's trying to save people's lives. After all, if only perfect people were to be thanked, none of us would ever get any thanks. If each time you expect to be thanked, you got instead a list of everything you've done wrong today, it wouldn't entice you to do good again, would it ? Not that Snape would care anyway. Del From srobles at caribe.net Sun Jun 20 14:38:01 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:38:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102151 "saavi" wrote: > My theory is that Hermione knows that Ron has feelings for her and > she is flattered by it and not so sure how to deal with it. In the > other hand, she has feelings for Harry, but she is smart enough to > wait until he feels the same for her (or until he realizes that in > fact he already has feelings for her). This may be the reason why > Hermione tells Harry that in love matters "Harry, you're worse than > Ron.... Well, no, you're not,..."(pag 572) Because Ron knows what > he feels for Hermione, but he doesn't dare to tell her about it and > is allways so clumsy and rude. At least Harry try to make things > work out with Cho. > > Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe Ron > will turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do you think? MY REPLY: I think that's going to happen too. I don't believe anyone would doubt that Ron has feelings for Hermione... is the other way around that there are doubts (if Hermione has feelings for Ron). There's a question on the World Book chat that particularly struck me as odd, and I think it's related to what you said about Hermione coming between Harry and Ron. (I'm paraphrasing, I don't have intervieww here). ------ Q: Is Harry going to be back in the Quidditch Team on Book Six? JKR: Harry is already on the team. Whether the new Captain lets him stay is a whole other story? ------ I believe that the only person that can occupy this post is Ron. First, Ron has often joke about being captain, just like he joked about winning the Quidditch cup. He did won the Quidditch cup, so why couldn't he be captain? Considering that Angelina, Fred, George, Katie and Alicia are leaving the team upon graduation at the end of Harry's Fifth Year. That leaves Ron, Ginny, Jack and Andrew on the team. Ron is the one that has the most experience in Quidditch from that lot (I'm not considering Harry, because I don't think that Harry could kick himself off the team). Now, don't consider for a second I'm a Ron basher. I love my Ronniekins, I think he's absolutely adorable and a much needed part of the trio. HOWEVER, he has shown that he CAN get quite "jealous" of Harry and that their friendship can be temporarily severed, like what happened in GoF. What if Ron found out that the girl he "loves" doesn't like him that way, but likes Harry? I think that might prompt another falling out between Ron and Harry a la GoF, and that might explain the quote from World Book, cause as captain Ron has the authority to decide who can play and who can't. However, if this indeed happens, I'm pretty sure Ron will end up rising to the occasion, whether he gets Hermione or not. Me Loves My Ron! Anasazi From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 14:48:39 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:48:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102152 ******* Barbara wrote: Why does VM address PP as Wormtail? Wasn't that just his marauder nickname in school? ********** >>>Susan now: Why _would_ LV call PP Wormtail? It was his nickname, and I doubt the entire school called PP "Wormtail". If the nickname was known by their schoolmates, then why didn't Snape know/figure out who had made the map? (GoF). Particularly since the map insults him! Since SS went to school with the Marauders, if the nickname was that popular, it seems to me he of all people would have known. But SS doesn't know, even though he went to school with these guys, and yet LV does know! Legilimens?<<< Barbara again: I didn't quite put it into words as well as you did, but I think that's what I was thinking. It was his nickname with the Marauders. I was never under the impression that it was a school-wide or well known nickname. I can buy the Leglimens thing though. I would imagine VM would be using that quite often to test his DEs, hence why SS is a good spy, because he knows Occlumency. But I'll address that further below. *** Barbara: It's also clear to me that Snape is a double agent, that DD trusts him because he went from being a DE (or maybe was even faking that for VM) to being a spy, and he will be accepted by the DEs again, even though he didn't show up at VM's rebirth, because he can say he was maintaining his cover as a spy, not letting DD know anything was going on. ***** >>>Susan: Why is it clear, to you and everyone else but me, that SS is _still_ a double agent? I don't see how anyone who's even remotely connected to the school or to LV could possibly think that SS is still loyal in any way to LV. I get it that since he didn't show up in the graveyard scene in GoF that his absence could easily be explained by the fact that no one can apparate on/off the Hogwarts grounds, but why would anyone still expect him to show up there? Again, SS and McG _are_ unquestionably loyal to DD, so why oh why would anyone think SS is even still capable of being a spy for DD? The only thing I can think of here is that I'm right, you all are wrong ;-) his cover really is blown, and something to reveal this is going to happen to SS in book 6.<<< Barbara: It is obvious to us, the readers, because we see the scenes with DD, SS and McG and we know that SS does what DD asks of him, for the most part without question. I don't think it is known to the whole school that he is DD's right-hand man. In fact, I sometimes buy the argument others have made that Snape is only treating the Trio as badly as he is to keep up pretenses so if any of the DEs' kids talk about their teachers, they will be sure to mention that Snape loathes HP and his mudblood friend as much as they do. Just to make clear, since I don't even know if I used the term double-agent correctly, I think Snape WAS a DE, then turned to DD and changed his allegiance. However, he is still pretending to the DEs that he IS on their side and that he is spying on DD for them. So he's playing spy for both sides. I hope and think he is truthful in his allegiance to DD, but as long as the DEs think Snape is on their side, and just playing a role with DD, that makes them (and VM) able to excuse his not showing up at the cemetery, and his doing things that DD asks. I guess one of the mysteries I'd like solved when this is all over is who is Snape truly loyal to? Is he in fact an ex-DE or has he been stringing DD along the whole time? Barbara bd-bear From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 14:59:32 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:59:32 -0300 (ART) Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620145932.63711.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102153 Boyd wrote: > * Harry is the *one* who can defeat LV simply because > LV chose him to be the last killing or possession or > whatever for LV to gain eternal life. LV already did > part of the spell and needed only to kill Harry to > complete it, and that's why they're connected > psychically. And that's the only thing that has kept > LV from gaining eternal life--he has to finish the spell > with Harry, no one else will work now that the process > was begun. Rebeka: You know, I always thought that was because Voldemort wanted Harry in first place. Then, the prophecy came along, and ruined all my theories. I hated this prophecy thing, it's like everything you cannot really explain, let's create a prophecy for it! I truly hope that there's more than meets the eye here. Otherwise, I'll be greatly disappointed. :( ===== ~Rebeka From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 15:08:52 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:08:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102154 >>>Del wrote: And all Slytherins are DEs at heart, right ? Wrong. Draco might be some kind of junior DE, and Pansy seems to like being nasty, but that's pretty much it. Crabbe and Goyle would follow anyone who could buy them. Theo Nott and Blaise Zabini have never been heard of. Millicent Bulstrode seems to be nothing more than a female Crabbe. And the gang of Slytherin girls that Pansy keeps making laugh have not even been broken apart into individuals by Harry, which says a lot about their personal nastiness. And nobody from the other years seems to be anywhere as nasty as Draco. Honestly, if *Draco* is the top in nastiness that Slytherin can create, then I say the DEs have reason to worry : the next generation won't bring them any interesting nor strong fresh blood.<<< Barbara writes: My read on this must be similar to Darrin's because I remember reading multiple times where unnamed Slytherins were laughing with Draco when he'd make fun of Harry or Hermione. I can't quote a specific passage, but in reading the books, I get the general sense that JKR is NOT putting the Slytherins in a good light. Now, if she specifically singles out a couple Slytherins who have different attitudes, I have no problem with that. But so far, her depiction of Slytherins is the bullying Draco, his oafish-cronies Crabbe and Goyle, Pansy, and his "gang" (it's often written that he's got a gang of Slytherins around him laughing at his comments about Harry or supporting him when he insults someone). Darrin wrote : > "Light" bullying. Now we have degrees of it. Is there no argument > you won't resort to in order to mitigate how loathsome the > Slytherins are? > > Tell me, what is "heavy" bullying? >>>Del wrote: Yes, let's discuss the degrees of bullying, and then let's have a poll to ask how many of our members NEVER indulged in some degree of bullying ! Honestly, how many of us never made fun of the nerd in our class ? How many of us never called a girl fat just to make her sad ? How many of us never commented on the acne of a guy ? How many of us never refused to associate or to be seen with certain people ? (I did do some of those, though not all). Bullying, to various degrees, is a part of childhood and adolescence. Teenagers, in particular, like to make others look bad in order to make themselves look better. It's sad, but it's normal. I've always been fat, and I had to endure horrible bullying because of it. And one thing I discovered was that *teachers* and other adults were important : if the kids got told off for bothering me, half of them would be less tempted to do it again, because somehow, they knew deep inside that it wasn't nice and hearing the adult say so was enough to make them ashamed.<<< Barbara writes: I am surprised at your statements asking "How many of us," as if that is a right of passage every kid goes through. I NEVER indulged in bullying and certainly never did the things you suggested above. I was, however, the object of bullying and peer-abuse and I can tell you, it doesn't matter what "degrees" you talk about, it's all painful. I also don't agree with you that it's normal to make others look bad. (That is, if your meaning of normal is healthy or proper. If your meaning of normal is "common," then yes, it's all too common.) Bullying and talking nastily behind the backs of your peers is prevalent in some schools in some areas, but that doesn't make it normal or acceptable (it makes it something to fight against and teach our children NOT to do). And I wonder, if you yourself were the target of bullying, how you could have "called a girl fat just to make her sad"? (Or whatever specific thing is you were owning up to when you said "I did do some of those, though not all.") >>>Del wrote: So yes Draco bullies a lot. But why isn't anyone in charge doing anything about it ? It took only ONE DAY, if I remember correctly, for Fake!Moody to put Draco back in his place !!<<< Barbara writes: I think Draco is too cunning to get caught by someone he would actually get punished by. But he certainly does this enough in front of Snape, and what does Snape do? NOTHING! Just because one of the teachers, who himself has a nasty and unfair attitude towards certain students, doesn't punish him, does not make it right, acceptable or justified. Barbara bd-bear From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 15:48:23 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch residence as HQ for LV? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620154823.21890.qmail@web60107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102155 Just a thought - with Barty Sr. and Jr. now out of the picture, and no other heirs (or elves) to worry about, what's the possibility that LV is using their residence as one of his "safe houses"? Barty's family obviously had it's own vault at Gringotts - what happens there? Wasn't there also a flying carpet in the Crouch closet? We know LV busted in to imperio Barty Sr. and had used the place for some period of time. The irony seems in keeping with JKR's style. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 15:33:45 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:33:45 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] centaurs (was Re: Red Herrings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620153345.78299.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102156 Janelle: > The last time I read SS it popped out to me when Firenze > I believe is was said something like 'it is always the > innocent who are the first victims'. You can read this as > surface of it will be innocent people in general or you > can see it as more specific: > > 1) Sirius. > > 2) Cedric, Rebeka: Here we go. But then we can count Bertha Jones as the first victim. She was innocent, wasn't she? ===== ~Rebeka From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 15:45:34 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:45:34 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British V American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620154534.13707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102157 Mandy here: > I'm a Brit who has lived in the US for 15 years. I read > the American versions first, loved them! But this > year I got the British editions for the first time. > > I feel there is a very big difference. But I'm not sure > if I can explain what it is. > But since beginning the UK editions 2 weeks ago I would > now do something I would never have dreamed of doing > before, and that is strongly recommend that EVERYONE read > the original British Editions. After all, it is the > language Rowling wrote them in and the only way to truly > experience exactly what she wrote. You know what? I'm Brazilian, I've got all books, but I feel the translated text miss something. So, I got the books through InterNet (okay, this wrong, but I'm expecting my local stores to have all HP books in British versions to buy), and boy, how it feels right! They change so much, so much is lost! I was petrified! Like in Order of the Phoenix, they totally forgot to put in text that Figg is a squib! They just translated like her saying she can't do proper magic! It not sounds to me a description of a squib! ===== ~Rebeka From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jun 20 16:02:00 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:02:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1705373254.20040620090200@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102158 Hi, Sunday, June 20, 2004, 7:38:01 AM, anasazi_pr wrote: > Q: Is Harry going to be back in the Quidditch Team on Book Six? > JKR: Harry is already on the team. Whether the new Captain lets him > stay is a whole other story? IIRC, you got the names mixed up. Someone asked if *Ron* was going to join the Quidditch team (and since he already joined in OotP, the answer was that he is already on the team). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 15:27:41 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:27:41 -0300 (ART) Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620152742.96492.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102159 Wanda: > When right after "Snape's Worst Memory," Harry is thinking > over how his mother seemed to hate his father, he wonders > if James somehow forced Lily into marriage. Maybe there's > something to that: perhaps theirs wasn't a love-match, but > more of a political marriage, to produce this miracle child > who would fulfill prophecies and defeat Voldemort. Rebeka: That would be interesting, but the prophecy was told when Harry was born (Dumbledore says 16 years ago, I assume the time frame includes the fact that Harry is about to turn 16). ===== ~Rebeka From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 16:07:09 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:07:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: [about a possible attack on Privet Drive in the opening of Book Six] > Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't think > she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to live > with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation that > his wife and son were magical. Alice: The reason I don't like this idea is that in a strange way it would prove Vernon right in some of his misgivings about Harry: had Harry never been dumped on his doorstep, Vernon would have been able to live a nice, comfortable and prosperous life with his wife and son, exactly as he wished. The attack on Dudley is bad enough - I must say Vernon's anxiety is justified: his son has been attacked, for reasons he cannot control, and which are plainly linked to the nephew he's bringing up. It doesn't exuse any of his abuse of Harry, but by Book Five I became convinced that he damn well has a point: having Harry around is no laughing matter any more, even though of course this isn't actually Harry's fault. And I would NOT like to see Vernon proven right. It's bad enough as it is. Love, Alice (never imagined she'd actually state that Vernon has a point) From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 16:08:52 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:08:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: [about a possible attack on Privet Drive in the opening of Book Six] > Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't think > she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to live > with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation that > his wife and son were magical. Alice: The reason I don't like this idea is that in a strange way it would prove Vernon right in some of his misgivings about Harry: had Harry never been dumped on his doorstep, Vernon would have been able to live a nice, comfortable and prosperous life with his wife and son, exactly as he wished. The attack on Dudley is bad enough - I must say Vernon's anxiety is justified: his son has been attacked, for reasons he cannot control, and which are plainly linked to the nephew he's bringing up. It doesn't exuse any of his abuse of Harry, but by Book Five I became convinced that he damn well has a point: having Harry around is no laughing matter any more, even though of course this isn't actually Harry's fault. And I would NOT like to see Vernon proven right. It's bad enough as it is. Love, Alice (never imagined she'd actually state that Vernon has a point) From lliannanshe at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 16:11:49 2004 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:11:49 -0000 Subject: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102162 Barbara said: in the initial lesson he gives to Harry's class, Lupin uses "Riddikulus!" on his own boggart (the moon shape)and it turns into a cockroach (I've no idea why that would be funny, as it is supposed to be to fight a boggart). Harry fights it a few times in training with Lupin and I think he passes out a few times and Lupin always forces the boggart back into the trunk. Even after HP produces a decent Patronus, Lupin jumps in front of the boggart, he yells "Riddikulus," it turns into an orb again and then he forces it back in the trunk again. Lliannanshe: Remember, Lupin "almost lazily" turned the orb into a cockroach giving Neville the second chance at the boggart. (POA PG139) and, as you pointed out, Lupin is able to force the boggart in the trunk even in as it is in the shape of an orb. Barbara Said: "What you need to do is force it to assume a shape that you find amusing." POA 134 However, in GoF, when Harry meets the boggart-dementor in the maze, he performs the Patronus Charm, and then realizes that he's not fighting a dementor, but a boggart and uses the Riddikulus charm. "There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke." GoF 623 Lliannanshe said: (OOP PG176) "Lupin waved his wand once more and the orb vanished in a puff of smoke" Lupin is also able to make a boggart disappear without an amusing shape change or laughter. We should appreciate Harry's level of power. For Harry, confronting the boggart itself was amusing (riddikulus) when compared to confronting a dementor. (Puff, in a wisp of smoke) Lliannanshe (Who would like to know if Barbara has any thoughts to add because she is on the right track) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 16:21:40 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:21:40 -0000 Subject: centaurs (was Re: Red Herrings) In-Reply-To: <20040620153345.78299.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes wrote: > Janelle: > > The last time I read SS it popped out to me when Firenze > > I believe is was said something like 'it is always the > > innocent who are the first victims'. You can read this as > > surface of it will be innocent people in general or you > > can see it as more specific: > > > > 1) Sirius. > > > > 2) Cedric, > > > Rebeka: > Here we go. But then we can count Bertha Jones as the > first victim. She was innocent, wasn't she? > > ===== Susan now: When I first started reading the posts re: Prof Sinistra, especially all the cool information regarding the constellations, I started wordering about not only her loyalties, but also what kind of relationship she might have with Firenze. They both read the stars, although I'm not exactly sure what the students actually do in Astronomy class. I mean, it is astronomy and not astrology. However, just like prophecies, I'm sure stars can be misinterpreted as well. Perhaps we'll see some antagonistic behavior between Sinistra and Firenze. Perhaps if she (quietly) supports LV, she'll have a different interpretation of what's to come. Any thoughts? Susan :-) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 16:29:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:29:34 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102164 Barbara bd-bear wrote : > Also, with all due respect, just because there are worse ways of > teaching, in your opinion, does NOT justify Snape's methods of > teaching. Del replies : In my opinion, if a method works and the kids don't all end up in Hospital because they can't stand the idea of going to one more lesson, then those methods are valid, period. Not nice, not plesant, not necessary most of the time, but valid. Barbara bd-bear wrote : > I grant you this is the WW, and JKR wrote things this way for a > purpose, which is why I don't get in these debates much. But I am > alarmed when I read your posts as it seems you are advocating some > excessively harsh teaching methods. Really none of us on this list > know what you went through or can say what did and didn't work for > you. Del replies : As a matter of fact, I DO know what Shaun went through. But because it wasn't as intense for me as for him, I never mentioned it. But I too suffered from the classic methods of teaching. Not in a painful way, just in the results : I un-learned to work, to be my best or to want good marks. I stated school as an eager student, and turned in a few years into a lazy slob. Needless to say, it led to my utter failure in University. And to think that I was the most brilliant student in my primary school... Barbara bd-bear wrote : > We can only speak to the HP world, and as far as that world goes, > Snape DOES abuse Harry and Neville, he DOES disrespect them, he > DOES unfairly punish them and that is what a lot of people are > reacting to. I personally can't see how anybody with a real-live > Snape-like teacher could benefit from that. Del replies : I would, because I would make sure I knew all my lessons by heart and had made my homework perfectly, just so as not to give that teacher *any* weapon. He would find others anyway, but at least he couldn't say I was looking for it. The fault would be entirely his, so I could hate him peacefully. I still remember the face of my Maths teacher when I did so well in a national Maths challenge, it gave me such a savage pleasure... Del From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 16:44:36 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:44:36 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Chocolate Bar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102165 Chocolate Bar A filk by Gail B. to the tune of _Cinnamon Girl_ by Neil Young Midi is here: http://users1.ee.net/lstone/cingirl.mid Dedicated to all you dads out there...rock on. Written from Harry's POV, the first four stanzas is Harry remembering what Professor Lupin told him. "You ought to eat This here chocolate bar You will feel happy If you eat a piece Of this chocolate bar It was a Dementor Guard of Azkaban That entered through the door As soon as you can Eat that chocolate bar Ev'ry good feeling That you've ever had Dementors are stealing And leaving you sad Have some chocolate bar They're looking for Black here On the Hogwarts train Now to dispel your fear I'll tell you again Eat your chocolate bar" With my very first bite I started to feel all right Warmth spreading to my toes A DADA Professor who knows! Yum...yum...yum! -Gail B...who laughed out loud at Lupin's "Chocolate" lines in the movie. From srobles at caribe.net Sun Jun 20 16:22:27 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:22:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102166 anasazi_pr wrote: > > Q: Is Harry going to be back in the Quidditch Team on Book Six? > > JKR: Harry is already on the team. Whether the new Captain lets > > him stay is a whole other story? Susanne wrote: > IIRC, you got the names mixed up. > > Someone asked if *Ron* was going to join the Quidditch team > (and since he already joined in OotP, the answer was that he > is already on the team). Oops. My bad. You are right. That's a theory down the toilet. > Tara here: > By the way, I think the most conclusive evidence is when Jo told > Katie Couric that it would be R/Hr and not H/Hr as Katie believed. This is the interview you are referring to: ---- "Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" Rowling: "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?" Couric: "No I'm kidding. Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential (or did she say "tension") there" (A/N: I know this is a crucial sentence, but I had some trouble understanding her here? she mumbles the sentence a little. This is my best interpretation! Either way, R/H shippers around the world are grinning!) ---- JK is ambiguous as usual, because she still doesn't answer the question (this question is about OoTP). The potential for R/Hr is in the books because is clear what Ron feels for Hermione... what's not so clear is what Hermione feels for Ron (and of course, what Harry feels for anyone other than Cho). Again, think about the way the original question in her site was stated... the question was Who Hermione loved... because there's no doubt about who Ron loves and no one has absolutely any idea of who Harry loves (not even the poor bloke!). This sort of reminds me about JKR's answer to every question regarding Harry's future: she always says "If he lives"... Of course, I don't believe for a minute that Harry will die (this is, after all, a children's book) and if anyone's buying the farm, is either Hermione (I can't get her out of my head since the silence killing curse in DoM) or Ron (whomping willow, Die-Ron-Die, ches match). But JKR's answer is a deliberate reminder that NOTHING in her books can be taken for granted. Maybe that's the source of her ambiguousness relating to the shipping subject... maybe she doesn't want H/Hr or R/Hr to take their ship for granted until she's ready to reveal what it is. Anasazi From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 17:00:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:00:18 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <199.2b3529a3.2e05131a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102167 I, Del, wrote : > How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? Yes he bullies > Harry, Neville, and countless others. Batchevra answered : > I am confused about what you are trying to say here, first you ask > how Snape is abusing his authority and then in the next sentence you > agree that Snape is bullying Harry and Neville. Del replies : Easy :-) I don't equate bully and abuse. Batchevra wrote : > I am not tolerant when it comes to people abusing children. When > that line is crossed, I have problems with it, and Snape crosses the > line in quite a number of ways. If Snape wants to be strict, then > let him be strict, if he wants to be unfair than let it be, unfair. > But don't abuse a child. Del replies : It all depends on what you define as abuse. Some things that our parents or grandparents did to their kids would be considered abuse now. There are countries that have made spanking and slapping your kids illegal. So yes I see Snape doing tough things to the kids, but we can't know if it's considered abuse in their society. Batchevra wrote : > The same way you were able to not abuse your child, Snape should > have been able to restrain himself, I mean I'm sure he could have > found more flies to zap instead of bullying Harry and Neville. Del replies : There's two major differences between Snape and I : 1. I have dealt with my past problems, realized that I didn't like it, decided long ago I didn't want to repeat it. We don't know that Snape even thought about his past, and much less what kind of decision he took. It feels to me that for him everything is still very much present. 2. I have a religion, which helps me put things into perspective, and forces me to think and ponder. Snape doesn't seem to have that. Del From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 17:10:29 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:10:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fortifications at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102168 | From: Mandy | Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:08 AM | Mandy here: | Nice idea except that Sirius gained entry, all the way into the | Gryffindor common room, with evil intent. Everyone was wrong in | believing he was after Harry when in fact he was after Peter, but | either way, he was there to commit murder. Wouldn't the school have | wanted to confuse him to protect the innocent inside? Perhaps the | school recognized him as one of its own, but then it would recognize | Voldemort as Tom, one of its own too. [Lee]: I remember posting this back in may, but I seriously think Crookshanks helped Sirius get in. And, if Sirius was, as he said in POA, living in the forest, one can get onto the grounds from the forest. And, Sirius had been spotted in Padfoot form on the grounds before...at the Quidditch match and hanging out with Crookshanks who had somehow left Hermione who was in Gryf Tower. So, if he could do that, and Crookshanks had stolen Neville's written passwords off his table, that sneaky part-cat could have devised a way to help a desperate Padfoot into Gryf tower. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 17:14:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:14:50 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102169 Stefanie wrote : > I am appalled by the "it felt good for him to antagonize, so why > shouldn't he do it" sentiments I've seen offered. If that were the > case, why have morality in the first place? When we choose to do > good, more often than not, we're battling something inside of us > that wants to derive instant pleasure out of doing something "bad." > If "if it feels good, do it" is an excuse for Snape, then half of > our laws in existance should in respects be moot. Del replies : Well, if you want to turn into Snape, that is... :-) I think that's the main thing though : Snape might have tons of more or less good reasons to do what he does, but in the end, he's *Snape* ! Do *I* want to look, act, talk, be considered like Snape ? NOOOOOOO !!!! So I guess I can't indulge in the same feelings he does. Del From rzl46 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 17:32:30 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:32:30 -0000 Subject: Thought about Headquarters security Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102170 I'm about to post a half-formed theory here, so please be patient. We know that Harry didn't practice Occlumancy the way he was supposed to. We know that Voldemort had enough access to Harry's mind to be able to present ideas to Harry. What we don't know is whether or not Voldemort took advantage of the opportunity to sort through Harry's memories. What if he did, and one of the memories he stumbled upon was Harry's memory of reading the note from Dumbledore telling him where to find the Order's headquarters? What do we know about the secret keepers? We know that the secret keeper has to personally tell the secret to someone. We know that Dumbledore is the secret keeper for the Order, that's why the note was in Dumbledore's handwriting. Granted, this is a bit of a grey area, but Voldemort could would have read the message written in DD's handwriting, if through Harry's memory. I realize there is some room here for debate, but if you'll accept for the moment that this would allow Voldemort access to the headquarters, we have some interesting possibilites here. First of all, Voldemort would have to go to the headquarters himself, as no other death eater actually read the note. He would witness for himself that Snape is doing *something* for the Order--I won't get into what. Unless he disguised himself perfectly, Moody would be able to spot him. And I'm sure there are some things I'm forgetting. So, I'd like to suggest that the final show down takes place at the Order Headquarters when Voldemort is discovered there spying. MaggieB--ready to duck the stabs into her theory From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 17:34:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:34:10 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102171 Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): > He realizes his dream of the corridor is real when, in > Occlumency lesson, he realizes that the corridor is the one leading > to the Dept of Mysteries. Del replies : I agree that he discovers then that he's dreaming about something real. Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): > I think Harry has plenty of reasons, accumulated over years, to > believe that he has unique dreams that reflect real events, and most > of them are 'realtime' events; they occur as he dreams them. Del replies : But Harry has been dreaming of that corridor for a whole year now ! Do you truly think that each time Harry dreams of it, LV actually goes in the MoM, down in the DoM, through the doors, down the alley in the Prophecy Room, each time a bit further but never to the end ? I don't think so. IT's OBVIOUS to me (I emphasize : to me only) that those dreams are NOT about *realtime* events. Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): > Given that much direct and indirect evidence, I'm not surprise the > he believed the Sirius/DoM dream; everything in it was real with the > exception of one little detail. Del replies : In fact, everything in it was FAKE, but it was all happening in a place that truly exists. Remember, LV *never* went in the DoM. It's just like a movie shot in a real location : the place is real, but the whole story is fake. Del From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 17:43:57 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:43:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102172 | From: Susan | Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 14:09 PM | Susan (teilani) now: | One problem with this... SS 1:14 Hagrid says, "Young Sirius Black | _lent_ it to me" (my emphasis) and SS 1:16 Hagrid says, "I'll be | takin' Sirius his bike back." So, did he? He dropped off baby Harry | and left. Where'd Hagrid go? Did he find Sirius and return the | bike? [Lee]: And in POA, I quote from the US Edition, Chapter 10: {Hagrid speaking}: ... "But I'd had me orders from Dumbledore, an' I told Black no, Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an' uncle's. Black argued, but in the end he gave in. Told me ter take his motorbike ter get Harry there. 'I won't need it anymore,' he says. "I shoulda known there was somethin' fishy goin' on then. He loved that motorbike, what was he givin' it ter me for? Why wouldn' he need it anymore? Fact was, it was too easy ter trace. ..." --End Quote-- So, we have a bit of an inconsistency here. My feeling is that what Hagrid said in POA is correct and, perhaps, he misinterpreted Sirius in SS, figuring on that Sirius was just really distraught and didn't care about much of anything right then, but that he, Hagrid, would bring the bike back next day or so. Then, Hagrid finds out that Sirius has been arrested, yada-yada, and so what does he do with the bike? Yeah...interesting question. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 17:48:40 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:48:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's effective? teaching In-Reply-To: <007c01c45653$e5ab4e60$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102173 Christina wrote : > Remember what Umbridge told Harry - "This is school, Mr. Potter, not > real life." Del replies : Except that for Harry, school IS real life. Let's see : PS/SS : he fights with a Dark Wizard who's possessed by LV. CoS : he fights with Young LV himself and his pet Basilisk. PoA : he has to deal with Dementors, an escaped criminal and a werewolf. GoF : while competing in a *school* tournament, he is abducted and made to fight Resurrected LV and his pet DEs. OoP : the very same character who tells him that school is not real life tortures him. This is *real* life, not school life. Del From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Jun 20 17:59:20 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:59:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alice_loves_cats" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > [about a possible attack on Privet Drive in the opening of Book Six] > > Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't think she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to live with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation > that his wife and son were magical. > > Alice: > The reason I don't like this idea is that in a strange way it would > prove Vernon right in some of his misgivings about Harry: had Harry > never been dumped on his doorstep, Vernon would have been able to > live a nice, comfortable and prosperous life with his wife and son, > exactly as he wished. The attack on Dudley is bad enough - I must say Vernon's anxiety is justified: his son has been attacked, for reasons he cannot control, and which are plainly linked to the nephew he's bringing up. It doesn't exuse any of his abuse of Harry, but by Book Five I became convinced that he damn well has a point: having Harry around is no laughing matter any more, even though of course this isn't actually Harry's fault. > And I would NOT like to see Vernon proven right. It's bad enough as > it is. > Love, Alice > (never imagined she'd actually state that Vernon has a point) Carolyn: Mmm, I'd worry about empathising with Vernon too. Just what our esteemed author enjoys. Nothing she likes better than stirring up a bit of confused PC indignation, IMO. I think the Dursley story is one of JKR's more clumsy plot devices myself, or possibly a prototype for more sophisticated ones later. First we get the wicked family, thankyouverymuch, and our sympathies are all with Harry. Then, subtly, it morphs as the books go on. We find they are much less in control than it first appears, in fact down-right scared of the WW. Harry gets a bigger room, and he's always allowed back, heck, they even send him very curious and pointless Christmas presents. He's collected from Kings Cross every year, by the *whole* Dursley family. Is this weird behaviour by Vernon, or what? He hates the kid doesn't he? Why not let him get murdered or abducted in the muggle world between Kings Cross and Privet Drive? [And remember, Hagrid thought nothing of sending Harry back to Privet Drive by himself on the train when he was only 11, accompanied by an owl and all sorts of odd packages]. If Petunia is under some obligation to DD, surely it would be enough for her just to meet him, and take him back on the train? If she knows Harry might be dangerous, and wants Vernon with her for protection, why on earth bring precious Dudders with them ? What if he accidentally sees more strange people? What if they used Magic? There is obviously more to it. Numerous hours have been expended on this site discussing Petunia and Lily's relationship, what Petunia might have known, what she might have told Vernon, even what Marge might have guessed. And just who is Colonel Fubster? Snape was very curious about Harry's bulldog memory wasn't he? Since our tiresome hero never asks anything useful, even from close friends in the WW, we have to fill in the gaps ourselves. The Dursley family history is clearly far from simple, and, like Snape, there could be a range of reasons for Vernon's constant anger and mistreatment of Harry. In a funny way they are in similar positions, both apparently forced against their will to be saving the kid's life when they would really like to see him strung up. Definitely bad for their blood pressure in both cases. Our collective suspicions are realised in OotP. JKR stops the comedy routine with fatso Duds, and turns him into an alarmingly fit boxing champ; he's attacked, and has a mini-personality makeover; suddenly he's growing up and might have feelings, and we are expected to become engaged with him as a character. Petunia's cover is blown; and we all go berserk trying to figure out who Mark Evans is. The WW and real world converge, much to Harry's astonishment, but not really to ours if we have been reading between the lines. As I speculated in the post you are replying to, the Privet Drive scenario may be dispensed with altogether from Book 6 onwards, as no longer necessary to the plot. She might even have some fun actually blowing it up, as a metaphor for the destruction of dullness. For all these reasons, I think sympathy with Vernon is entirely misplaced. He's been portrayed throughout as a nasty bit of work that deserves some come-uppance, and it supports the development of this sub-plot that he gets it. I don't really mind if Petunia and Dudley get blown up too, but I think they won't because Petunia has got some more story to tell. And remember, they are Muggles, so Vernon can have a great time putting in insurance claims, so he's not going to lose out (!). And if the Dursley family survives this attack, no doubt they will have been rescued in some way by Harry or other wizards, so the ugly git can sit there in a very confused state, pondering on the ethics of hating the person (s) who have just saved your life, and your nearest and dearest. Just like Harry's confusion over Snape. It really seems a bit unlikely that Harry would lose much sleep over their demise, unless I suppose Petunia turns out to be polyjuiced! Lily or some such nonsense. He's likely to be aching over people that matter far more to him by the end of Book 6. I think this Dursley triangle was one of JKR's first starting points with the books, and she has since repeated the motif in much more complex ways with more interesting characters. I would save your concern for more deserving causes! Carolyn (somewhat startled to get a response to this old post, but since its appeared twice, courtesy of Yahoo, I guess I'd better reply) From bd-bear at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 16:53:47 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:53:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102175 >>>Barbara Said: "What you need to do is force it to assume a shape that you find amusing." POA 134 However, in GoF, when Harry meets the boggart-dementor in the maze, he performs the Patronus Charm, and then realizes that he's not fighting a dementor, but a boggart and uses the Riddikulus charm. "There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke." GoF 623<<< >>>Lliannanshe said: (OOP PG176) "Lupin waved his wand once more and the orb vanished in a puff of smoke" Lupin is also able to make a boggart disappear without an amusing shape change or laughter. We should appreciate Harry's level of power. For Harry, confronting the boggart itself was amusing (riddikulus) when compared to confronting a dementor. (Puff, in a wisp of smoke)<<< I don't buy this, mainly because I think it's hindsight to say it wasn't actually a mistake on JKR's part, but look, he must've been more powerful! You could be right, but I'd feel more inclined to agree if somewhere in one of the books it were to say a truly powerful wizard need not even use the Riddikulus charm, or that after doing so, could just wave his wand to destroy the boggart, skipping the whole laugher bit. Barbara bd-bear From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 18:22:44 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:22:44 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102176 Barbara bd-bear wrote : > My read on this must be similar to Darrin's because I remember > reading multiple times where unnamed Slytherins were laughing with > Draco when he'd make fun of Harry or Hermione. Del replies : There's a vast difference between actually doing the bullying or mocking, and simply laughing at it. Many of us on this list admit to have laughed at some things in the books that were both funny for us and painful for whoever they were happening to. And after all Draco *is* funny sometimes, if you don't happen to be a friend of Harry's. I, Del, wrote: > Yes, let's discuss the degrees of bullying, and then let's have a > poll to ask how many of our members NEVER indulged in some degree of > bullying ! Honestly, how many of us never made fun of the nerd in > our class ? How many of us never called a girl fat just to make her > sad ? How many of us never commented on the acne of a guy ? How many > of us never refused to associate or to be seen with certain people ? > (I did do some of those, though not all). Barbara bd-bear answered : > I am surprised at your statements asking "How many of us," as if > that is a right of passage every kid goes through. I NEVER indulged > in bullying and certainly never did the things you suggested above. Del replies : Well, I must admit I'm amazed ! But then maybe it's another one of those cultural issues. I remember being surprised, when I went to Canada, at how much gentler the kids seemed to be there. Maybe it's just France then, or maybe it's just the schools I went to in France. But I can tell you that it was a sport in those schools, to say witty nasty things about other kids. And when I read the HP books, I was much more reminded of my French schools than of the Canadian highschool I went to... Barbara bd-bear wrote : > I was, however, the object of bullying and peer-abuse and I can tell > you, it doesn't matter what "degrees" you talk about, it's all > painful. Del replies : Yes it's always painful. But I still stood it better when they confined themselves with calling me names. There were things much harder than that. Barbara bd-bear wrote : > I also don't agree with you that it's normal to make others look > bad. (That is, if your meaning of normal is healthy or proper. If > your meaning of normal is "common," then yes, it's all too common.) Del replies : That was indeed my meaning. I would never call bullying healthy or proper. Barbara bd-bear wrote : > Bullying and talking nastily behind the backs of your peers is > prevalent in some schools in some areas, but that doesn't make it > normal or acceptable (it makes it something to fight against and > teach our children NOT to do). Del replies : But since *nobody* ever bothers to teach the kids at Hogwarts not to do it, doesn't that imply that it's considered normal ? DD even lets a *teacher* get away with it... Barbara bd-bear wrote : > And I wonder, if you yourself were the target of bullying, how > you could have "called a girl fat just to make her sad"? (Or > whatever specific thing is you were owning up to when you said "I > did do some of those, though not all.") Del replies : As you would guess, that was one of those things I did *not* do :-) Nor the nerd one, since I was on too. But I must admit having commented once or twice about some poor guy's out-of-control acne, and to my great shame I must admit I did shun people I didn't want to be seen with a few times. Not often, because it made me feel horribly bad, and I always regretted it. Barbara bd-bear wrote : > I think Draco is too cunning to get caught by someone he would > actually get punished by. Del replies : Very rarely do we see Draco checking that there aren't any teachers around before he has a go at Harry. Most of the time, he just does it whenever he feels like it, and I can't believe that there would *never* be any teacher around. All those scenes in the great Hall for example : there are *always* teachers there. Del From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jun 20 18:27:43 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:27:43 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > But Harry has been dreaming of that corridor for a whole year now ! Do > you truly think that each time Harry dreams of it, LV actually goes in > the MoM, down in the DoM, through the doors, down the alley in the > Prophecy Room, each time a bit further but never to the end ? I don't > think so. IT's OBVIOUS to me (I emphasize : to me only) that those > dreams are NOT about *realtime* events. Agreed. This particular dream was not like any of the other dreams he had, either in OotP or previous books. I think Harry's past experience FOOLED him into thinking he could trust all his dreams. The others had all been about something really happening, why wouldn't this be? If he'd been less secretive about the dreams, someone might have pointed out to him that Voldemort *couldn't* be floating down the halls of the MoM nightly. Whatever the dream was telling him, it wasn't a simple picture of real events. But I think he was too convinced of his ability to "see" via his dreams, and wouldn't have been open to reason. By the end, he was just in full panic, and swept his friends along with him, without any possibility of stopping to doubt or question. But my question is, just what WAS the recurring dream? If it was resulting from his mental connection with Voldemort, was he actually seeing *Voldemort's* dreams? Or was this just a glimpse into a plan or preoccupation of Voldemort, that never changed and could get through to him in the night? Wanda From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 18:57:15 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:57:15 -0000 Subject: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hettiebe" wrote: > I'm afraid this isn't entirely canon but please bear with me. In > Philosopher's Stone Dumbledore makes the comment about having been > put off Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans by coming across a vomit > flavour one in his youth. Now, I've just been replaying the > Philopher's Stone game in which there is a side quest to collect > wizard cards and I remembered that Bertie Bott was on one of the > cards. I checked his dates and his card says that he was born in > 1935, at which time Dumbledore would have been around 85. Not 'in his > youth' even by wizard standards. So, unless a mistake has been made > in the game, Dumbledore MUST have gone back in time. > > Aha!!! > > "hettiebe" Well, I guess that just depends on your definition of youth. DD could very well feel that the age of 85 was his youth, as wizards seem to live quite a bit longer than Muggles. And I don't know if the game cards count as cannon, unless it is a chocolate frog card, which we know to be cannon. Meri - a firm disbeliever in the DD is time turning theory From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 19:05:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:05:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <20040619024714.13842.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102179 | From: K G | Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 22:47 PM | Mandy (my daughter is Amanda and we call her Manda), | | I am from the US (as you have been able to tell from my past | posts). In fact I am from the rural northern Georgia hills. Do | I see class differences and names? No. Not with me, anyway. | When I see names such as Fred, George, Charlie, Bill, and Arthur | I think "old fashioned" as in a couple of generations back in our | geneology. (my mom has traced ours back to 1600's Ireland) | Names here are pretty much not class but heritage based. You can | tell from mine and my kids names (Karan, Amanda, Nicholas and | Devon) that we are origionally from Western Europe. Names like | "Harry" and "James" may be used as middle names to honor someones | grandfather but you rarely see them used as "call names" (to use | a dog show term). I guess this is my long winded way to say that | I, at least, see the names in a bit of a different way. [Lee]: With all the "baby name" books out there, people can sometimes pick the most unusual names regardless of class. Sometimes, they pick them for their meaning, some names get picked because they sound cool, other kids are named for someone's fave celeb or book/series character...seriously! My brother, Tracey, was named because my Mom loved a character named Tracey Steele (don't know if that's spelled correctly), but I think he was some character from a series called "I Spy." :-) Suffice it to say that my poor brother hates his name because of the way it's spelled; too many people figure he's a girl. So he uses his middle name and his business cards are "T. Conrad." But, to take this back to Canon, I often wonder what Petunia and Lilly's Mom was named? Did she have the floral motif? :-) Perhaps one of the next two books will yield this information. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Jun 20 19:34:27 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:34:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment ....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102180 "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Considering that Angelina, Fred, George, > Katie and Alicia are leaving the team upon graduation at the end of > Harry's Fifth Year. ------------- Correction: Ginny mentions to Harry that Chasers Angelina and Alicia are leaving next year, but not Katie. So Katie can be assumed to be coming back for her 7th year. Arya From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 19:35:57 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:35:57 -0000 Subject: Wandwaving was Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102181 > I don't buy this, mainly because I think it's hindsight to say it wasn't > actually a mistake on JKR's part, but look, he must've been more powerful! > You could be right, but I'd feel more inclined to agree if somewhere in one > of the books it were to say a truly powerful wizard need not even use the > Riddikulus charm, or that after doing so, could just wave his wand to > destroy the boggart, skipping the whole laugher bit. > > Barbara > bd-bear Alice: I feel confident that this has been discussed many, many times, but I got the impression from the books (so not only from TMTMNBN, where it's more obvious, yet not canon) that powerful wizards mainly skip the incantations, wave a wand, and the desired thing happens. I always assumed this to be linked with the mental concentration of the wizard involved. Basically as you get older, you only need to *think* of the specific spell and do the correct movement, and there you are. (Perhaps even the wand is occasionally needless, but that's a whole different story). So maybe at the beginning you need concentration, an incantation, a picture in your mind's eye of the funny thing, then laughter to deal with the Boggart. Later on it's just a swish and the thing is gone. Set me thinking about just how powerful our Molly is - I expect she's good at different sorts of magic. Love, Alice From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Jun 20 19:41:00 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:41:00 -0000 Subject: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102182 "hettiebe" wrote: > I'm afraid this isn't entirely canon but please bear with me. In > Philosopher's Stone Dumbledore makes the comment about having been > put off Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans by coming across a vomit > flavour one in his youth. Now, I've just been replaying the > Philopher's Stone game in which there is a side quest to collect > wizard cards and I remembered that Bertie Bott was on one of the > cards. I checked his dates and his card says that he was born in > 1935, at which time Dumbledore would have been around 85. Not 'in his > youth' even by wizard standards. So, unless a mistake has been made > in the game, Dumbledore MUST have gone back in time. ------------------------ Or, perhaps, Jo is bad with maths. Let me see if I can think of any other examples of this..... Arya From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 20 17:04:36 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:04:36 -0000 Subject: Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/comments about GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102183 Barbara wrote: > I think Snape WAS a DE, then turned to DD and changed his allegiance. > However, he is still pretending to the DEs that he IS on their side > and that he is spying on DD for them. So he's playing spy for both > sides. I guess one of the mysteries I'd like solved when this > is all over is who is Snape truly loyal to? Is he in fact an ex-DE or > has he been stringing DD along the whole time? One point that has always worried me is how Snape maintains his DE standing with Voldemort after the conversations he has had with Quirrel. Surely his defending the Philosopher's Stone and all that you don't want me as an enemy and and decide which side your are on stuff would have given him away given that Voldy was supposed to be on the back of Quirrel's head at the time. "hettiebe" From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 19:47:08 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:47:08 -0000 Subject: Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/comments about GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hettiebe" wrote: > Barbara wrote: > > > I think Snape WAS a DE, then turned to DD and changed his allegiance. > > However, he is still pretending to the DEs that he IS on their side > > and that he is spying on DD for them. So he's playing spy for both > > sides. I guess one of the mysteries I'd like solved when this > > is all over is who is Snape truly loyal to? Is he in fact an ex- DE or > > has he been stringing DD along the whole time? > > > One point that has always worried me is how Snape maintains his DE > standing with Voldemort after the conversations he has had with > Quirrel. Surely his defending the Philosopher's Stone and all that > you don't want me as an enemy and and decide which side your are on > stuff would have given him away given that Voldy was supposed to be > on the back of Quirrel's head at the time. > > "hettiebe" What an interesting point. That really opens a new flood of questions eh? From veiledmyst at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 17:18:21 2004 From: veiledmyst at comcast.net (veiledmyst) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:18:21 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102185 Barbara writes: > I remember reading multiple times where unnamed Slytherins were > laughing with Draco when he'd make fun of Harry or Hermione. I > can't quote a specific passage, but in reading the books, I get > the general sense that JKR is NOT putting the Slytherins in a > good light. veiledmyst: The Gryffindors are also shown laughing when one of theirs gets one over on the Slytherins. Especially Ron. And you're right, JKR is not putting the Slytherins in a good light. But she is also showing them through a competing house's eyes. I wonder how the books would read through Nott's eyes. Barbara writes: > I am surprised at your statements asking "How many of us," as if > that is a right of passage every kid goes through. I NEVER indulged > in bullying and certainly never did the things you suggested above. veiledmyst: Then I would imagine you are an exception. There are not too many people who have never been mean or shunned another kid to some degree, for no good reason, when growing up. Even for those that have been bullied. Not that I can speak for Del, but just because she was bullied doesn't make her perfect in her own attitudes to others. Yes, a lot of bullied people either feel more guilt if they do it and therefore maybe only indulge in 'light' bullying or maybe do it only a few times while growing up, but it doesn't make them saints because they are more sensitive about other's feelings. Even very sensitive, nice people have been bullies on occasion. veiledmyst From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 17:42:53 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:42:53 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620174253.12316.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102186 Del: > Snape seems to be one of those people. He grew up in the Dark > Arts and seems to have adopted early on a "Dark Outlook" on life > so to speak. He doesn't seem to like niceness and sweetness and > light, and seems to prefer darkness and cruelty. > > And I'm wondering: what's wrong with that? Isn't he entitled to > choose as he wants? It makes his and others' lifes harder, but > so what? Isn't it still his right as a human being to live as he > chooses? If others disagree (and many do), it is their right to > fight him and prevent him from hurting them. But if he likes > darkness rather than light, and cruelty rather than niceness, what > Higher Rule is he breaking, if he doesn't believe in a Higher Force? Okay, for the first time, I decided to join "Let's Get Snape Down" topic. :) I don't see Snape as a cruel person, nor even a nasty one. I see him as a bitter person, and the facts are all too clear (in the books, for me at least). I'm not saying that Snape was a abused child (we can't say that for sure, I still believe that kid in his memories are not him, but a child of his own), neither he has grown up psychologic injuried because of the Marauders (since he seemed to know how to defend/avenge himself pretty well). Snape is a bitter person for all his life has become. Since the beginning, I see Snape treating Harry and Neville quite worst than the rest of the students. Everyone assumes that he gives Harry this because of his father attitude towards him in their teenage years, but I think of that as a red herring. After all, Harry & Neville are the boys to whom the prophecy was made. Let me phrase this better: Snape is a bitter person, he just isn't the nice type of guy, he'll never be (one of my uncles is a teacher, and he's bitter, and acts a bit like Snape to his students). But he has being 'undercover' for Dumbledore in Hogwarts for almost fourteen years, both of them waiting for Voldemort's return. Whatever is Dumbledore plans for Snape, I believe they both had an agreement that Snape should never look like he's on light side (again - not saying that he would be giving candies otherwise). What would be better for him than treat those two boys, who every DE knows that could be Voldemort's downfall, nastily. Even then, I see Snape deal with Harry in such a way that the boy wouldn't be such bighead because of his fame. He never lied to Harry; when he told the boy his father was a bighead, he was right (proved by "Snape's Worst Memory"). He tries to put Harry into detention for things that Harry did wrong, even though Harry saves the day (for good or for worst, wandering in the castle after hours is forbidden.). Problem is, Dumbledore always seems to make things smooth to Harry, and that Snape disapproves (and I don't really think that his temper is so 'cold' as he tries to demonstrate). Neville, in another case. As some of you have already pointed out, he came to Hogwarts as a insecure boy, for several reasons: their parents' condition, his lack of magical spots as a child, an overprotector Granny. Snape presses him to do something, that's how I see it, but in such a way that for everybody else, it seems to be mistreat. Rebeka (Truly hoping that she made herself clear :P) ===== ~Rebeka From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jun 20 20:00:33 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:00:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thought about Headquarters security References: Message-ID: <004501c45701$3f60f880$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102187 > I'm about to post a half-formed theory here, so please be patient. > > We know that Harry didn't practice Occlumancy the way he was supposed > to. We know that Voldemort had enough access to Harry's mind to be > able to present ideas to Harry. What we don't know is whether or not > Voldemort took advantage of the opportunity to sort through Harry's > memories. What if he did, and one of the memories he stumbled upon > was Harry's memory of reading the note from Dumbledore telling him > where to find the Order's headquarters? I don't agree that VM could learn about the Order Headquarters through Harry's memory, because to me that's almost equivalent of Harry's telling VM where the headquarters are and according to the rules of the Fidelius Charm that simply wouldn't work. Also, when Snape was teaching Harry Occlumency he said that in Legilimency distance is essential and eye contact as well. Now it's true that the connection between Harry and Voldemort allowed VM to interfere with Harry's mind over the distance, but I don't think that it was as effective as eye-to-eye Legilimency would've been, in other words, I don't think he could access Harry's memories like movie clips the way Snape did. I think all he could do was sense Harry's feelings and emotions the way Harry could sense his, perhaps with more detail, for example knowing who the feeling was for. Alina. From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 20 18:55:12 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:55:12 -0300 (ART) Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040620185512.19896.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102188 Alla: > "Right Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: > what would you say is the thing that frightens you most in > the world?" Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out. > "Didn't catch that, Neville, sorry," said Professor Lupin > cheerfully. Neville looked around rather wildly, as though > begging someone to help him, then said, in barely more than > a wisper, "Professor Snape." - PoA, p.102, UK edition. > > Now, let's see. The boy, whose parents were tortured to > insanity by the Death Eaters, is not afraid of Voldemort or > his servants. He is terrified most in the world of his > Professor. Rebeka: But Voldemort is a distant figure in this point of the story. My father died because his car hit a bus, but I don't get afraid of a bus ride! Snape's 'mistreats' towards him are more real to him than some lunatic wizard who was indirectly responsible for his parents' status. See Harry, he was more afraid of Dementors (more real in that time frame) than Voldemort (whose he never truly feared, because til Book V, Harry never fully understood the manace the Dark Lord really was). ===== ~Rebeka From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 20:15:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:15:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Serpensotia spell. Was:Underage magic (was: Re: Silent/Wandless Magic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102189 I tend to think that, just as we all have different areas of gift, so do wizards. Don't ask me to carve wood or weld metals...the results would be tragic. By the same token, don't ask my husband (who could do the carving and welding) to take up a hem or take the innards out of a cassette tape and put them into a better shell; the result would either be tragic or, for him, completely frustrating and discouraging. So, I figure, some wizards have a natural affinity for certain types of spells and charms. Lilly, for example, was a charms expert; she could probably deliver a reasonable curse/hex, but it would be a lot tougher for her than for James, whose forte was more in that line. Hermione seems to like puzzles and logic and can work her way through some very complicated stuff. Harry, OTOH, took off on a broomstick and flew it that first day as if he'd flown for years, and it took Hermione a bit longer, IMO. Draco, who's been around Dark Arts and has probably played with similar spells, probably has a natural affinity to work such a spell as he did. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who really should sign off for a bit and get to RL stuff.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 20:25:02 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:25:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102190 [Susan asks]: | And btw, does Harry ever have to deal with a boggart? Yes, in GOF, final task, Harry sees what he thinks is a dementor in the maze which turns out to be a Bogart. He realizes that when he tries the patronus, it doesn't do much except make the "dementor" sort of lurch; then he does the riddikulus and...Gone! Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 20:35:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:35:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102191 My aunt is named "Bettie Ann." That's her real name, not Elizabeth. And my schoolmate's sister used to have a lot of problems because she was named "Peggy"; all of her teachers and such wouldn't believe that her given name was Peggy and kept calling her Margaret, etc. Poor Peggy had to bring a birth certificate to school to prove that her honest-to-goodness, legal name was "Peggy Ann." So, nicknames, even in RL, can be real names and, just as some folk may not be happy with full names like "Garfield," (which I've seen as a first name), there are those who won't be happy with given names like "Peggy." ... I no longer use my given name; Lee is me now. :-) Cheers, Me...or is that Lee... :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 21:20:40 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:20:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Sirius Hadn't Escaped in POA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102192 I would think that legilimency would have its ethical "code of conduct," if you will. In most SF that speaks of telepathy or empathy or any mind contacting ability, there is a privacy restriction involved, so I would be surprised if the same didn't hold true with legilimency. Probably, for the most part, legilimency is only used on the "need-to-know" basis, not on a "curious-and-want-to-know." That's my postulation, anyway. And, Barbara, I did respond to your GOF post. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From rzl46 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 21:50:15 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:50:15 -0000 Subject: Thought about Headquarters security In-Reply-To: <004501c45701$3f60f880$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > I'm about to post a half-formed theory here, so please be patient. > > > > We know that Harry didn't practice Occlumancy the way he was supposed > > to. We know that Voldemort had enough access to Harry's mind to be > > able to present ideas to Harry. What we don't know is whether or not > > Voldemort took advantage of the opportunity to sort through Harry's > > memories. What if he did, and one of the memories he stumbled upon > > was Harry's memory of reading the note from Dumbledore telling him > > where to find the Order's headquarters? > > > I don't agree that VM could learn about the Order Headquarters through > Harry's memory, because to me that's almost equivalent of Harry's telling VM > where the headquarters are and according to the rules of the Fidelius Charm > that simply wouldn't work. Also, when Snape was teaching Harry Occlumency he > said that in Legilimency distance is essential and eye contact as well. Now > it's true that the connection between Harry and Voldemort allowed VM to > interfere with Harry's mind over the distance, but I don't think that it was > as effective as eye-to-eye Legilimency would've been, in other words, I > don't think he could access Harry's memories like movie clips the way Snape > did. I think all he could do was sense Harry's feelings and emotions the way > Harry could sense his, perhaps with more detail, for example knowing who the > feeling was for. > > Alina. I knew there would be people who disagreed with the possibility, but I was more interested in discussing the "what if?" possibilities. If you don't agree with the possibility of Voldemort gaining access in this manner, suppose then that Voldemort is in hiding near the area where Dumbledore informs some other character of the location of the headquarters. In that manner, then Voldemort has access to the headquarters. What do you think might happen then? From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 22:09:24 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:09:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102194 | From: vmonte | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:09 AM | Susan wrote: | | Why _would_ LV call PP Wormtail? It was his nickname, | and I doubt the entire school called PP "Wormtail". If the nickname | was known by their schoolmates, then why didn't Snape know/figure out | who had made the map? (GoF). Particularly since the map insults | him! Since SS went to school with the Marauders, if the nickname was | that popular, it seems to me he of all people would have known. But | SS doesn't know, even though he went to school with these guys, and | yet LV does know! Legilimens? | | | vmonte replies: | | I think that Snape knew wormtail's name as well. I think that when | Snape sees the map the reason he shows it to Lupin is because he | thinks or suspects that Harry got the map from him. We even hear | James and gang calling each other by their animagus nicknames in | Snape's penseive memories (that is if this is really Snape's | memory). [Lee]: It's probably definitely Snape's memory, and I figure the names were really no big secret in and of themselves. The reason for each name, however...ah, therein lay the secret to all the rest of the school. Yes, I feel pretty sure Snape didn't believe the joke shop story from Lupin. But I don't think he really knew about the map...but I wouldn't bet a cheesecake. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 22:14:05 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:14:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: decision for VWII Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102195 Christina said: > >Janet - Part of the point of the Second Wizarding War is that >*everyone* >is going to have to decide, by word > >or deed, where they want to be, from children and teenagers on >up to >aged >wizards. > >Christina: You probably didn't mean it this way, but what you are saying is >yet another correlation to Christianity that others are finding in the >books. I know JKR says she didn't write them to be an allegory but I'm >finding lots of interesting information in the essays I've read. Who sez I didn't mean it that way? :) I think JKR said she was a Christian, and the fact that she also said she wasn't writing an allegory doesn't mean there won't be Christian overtones in the books. And anyway, it's probably very difficult if not impossible to read (or write) a book about the fight between good and evil and not be reminded of Christianity at some point in the proceedings. But we have it straight from Dumbledore: It's our choices that are important. This is, for example, the thing which keeps me liking Snape even with the reams of evidence that he is a grade-A stinker -- he chose good, deliberately and knowingly, and despite what it might have cost him (and maybe still is costing him). I even tolerate Mundungus Fletcher, who steals Sirius's silver when he's a guest in Sirius's house. (Hmm. I've just thought of something ... I'll get back to it.) As someone has pointed out, Dumbledore's standards, and those of the Order of the Phoenix, seem to parallel the Parable of the Vineyard: anyone who chooses good and rejects evil, no matter how late or how incompletely, will be welcome in the fight against evil. Janet Anderson (also a Christian, so those of you who will disregard my theories on that basis may feel free to do so) _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 22:26:54 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:26:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102196 | From: Susan | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:29 AM | Susan now: | | Further, why would PP _want_ to be called that anymore? If *I* were | a huge traitor who did all those horrible things to the people who | were my best friends in school, I really don't think I'd want to be | called by the nickname they gave me. Seems like it would be a | constant painful reminder of what a great coward I am. The only | thought I have there is that perhaps LV, sadist that he is, | uses the nickname as a constant reminder to PP that PP should always | be aware of where his loyalties lie. [Lee]: I'd agree with that. And, additionally, the nickname is, in fact, perfectly descriptive of PP; he's a crawler, just like a worm; he serves in terror and revulsion, not with pride. I'd say, too, that, like a worm, he was bate for bringing in whatever to LV...like bringing in Bertha. Definitely a descriptive name. :-) | Barbara: | > Why did Moody/Crouch turn Malfoy into a ferret, or was that to | prove he | > (Moody) is a "good" guy? Actually, I think I can answer that | myself, since | > Barty Jr. holds a grudge against all the DEs that escaped | prosecution and | > weren't "faithful" to VM. | | | Susan: | My opinion is that Moody wanted to get on Harry's good side, though I | like what you're saying re:LM et al. But the real bummer for me was | the fact that Moody _wasn't_ Moody, because I thought he was really | really cool. [Lee]: Oh, I agree with both assessments. And, remember, Crouch/Moody *Needed* for Harry to trust him; it was C/M's job to help Harry win the tournament so that Harry would touch the cup and be portkeyed to VoldeThingy. So, Malfoy was messing with Harry, C/M would do something very--uh--perhaps Real-Moody-like and keep Malfoy from doing any harm to Harry, gaining Harry's admiration and trust, and smoothing the path to better assisting Harry. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Jun 20 22:35:20 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:35:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boggarts & Riddikulus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95743966.20040620153520@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102197 Saturday, June 19, 2004, 11:32:48 AM, Susan wrote: S> Regardless of if his boggart is really a moon, or a phophecy S> orb, or a crystal ball, I wonder how he makes it funny. Watch the PoA movie -- The mystery is revealed! :) S> Also, as for Molly in OoP, how would any character turn something so S> tragic as the death of family members into something comical? Hmmm -- If it were me, I think I would imagine the corpse coming back to life with comical suddenness, a la Gene Kelly in the final "Dancing Cavalier" scene in _Singin' in the Rain_... "Oh Pierre, speak to me, speak to me!" GK: (Suddenly alive and singing) "I'd kiss her with sigh -- Would you, would you..." :) -- Dave From townsend3 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 21:34:34 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:34:34 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102198 > anasazi_pr wrote: > > This sort of reminds me about JKR's answer to every question > regarding Harry's future: she always says "If he lives"... Of course, > I don't believe for a minute that Harry will die . But > JKR's answer is a deliberate reminder that NOTHING in her books can > be taken for granted. Maybe that's the source of her ambiguousness > relating to the shipping subject... maybe she doesn't want H/Hr or > R/Hr to take their ship for granted until she's ready to reveal what > it is. I agree that "nothing can be taken for granted." As I mentioned in my prior message, Jo plants information among the readers for her own purposes. I believe she repeats that remark about Harry's possible death to keep us all a little off balance, just the way she revealed the upcoming death in OotP. If we could predict with absolute certainty what would be coming in the next two books, it would take a lot of the fun out of the thing, so she tries to spread red herrings among the fandom, whether it's about anyone's particular life expectancy or romantic future. (If she kills off any of the trio, it would be a real downer and would cast a shadow over the whole series.) After all the books have been published and analyzed, Jo might be more direct in her responses to lingering questions. Personally, I'm hoping she'll write some kind of Potter encyclopedia explaining all the back-stories and other details for which we clamor. Tara From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 20 22:30:12 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:30:12 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: References: <40D5AF14.24843.C0D93D@localhost> Message-ID: <40D69C94.14821.266428B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102199 On 20 Jun 2004 at 7:32, Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote: > Yes, it can be, and that's kind of been my point over and over > again. I learned quite well in classes which had teachers who acted > like Snape - far better than I would have in classes where the > teacher let me get away with whatever I liked. And I know a lot of > other people who did as well. > > There are far *worse* ways of teaching than those employed by > Snape. I've experienced them.<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > bd-bear: > > You consistently contrast Snape with teachers who would "let you get away > with whatever you liked." But don't you see a middle ground here? Yes, I do - but please read what I have written in context of the question I am answering at the time. I do believe there is a huge middle ground - and I think the number of teachers who 'let students get away with anything they like' is extremely small. But when I have talked about that idea, it's been in response to questions *specifically* about Snape's treatement of Gryffindors versus his treatment of Slytherins. In that *particular instance* I think the comparison is valid - because it looks very much to me like that is how Snape teaches the Slytherins - it looks to me very much like he lets them get away with doing whatever they like in the classroom without consequences. When I've used that expression, I'm talking about a *specific* situation, in response to *specific questions* about the way he seems to teach two *specific* groups. I'm not, on those occasions, making a general statement. > For > example, IMO McGonagall doesn't let the students get away with stuff. She's > very strict, the students know that and yet they respect her. She doesn't > single someone out and verbally attack them or sabotage their work. (Okay, > she's made snide comments about Neville, she's not perfect.) But she's not > abusive the way Snape is. She doesn't accuse the students of doing things > without proof (or a sufficient chance to explain), she doesn't act like she > has a vendetta against them, as Snape does with Harry. That is a teacher I > could respect. Maybe I wouldn't LOVE how strict she is, if I was her > student, but I wouldn't think she was unfair or abusive, which is what I > think Snape is. As I've said previously, I think McGonagall is a far superior teacher to Snape, and I certainly would have preferred her as a teacher over Snape. > Also, with all due respect, just because there are worse ways of teaching, > in your opinion, does NOT justify Snape's methods of teaching. I grant you > this is the WW, and JKR wrote things this way for a purpose, which is why I > don't get in these debates much. But I am alarmed when I read your posts as > it seems you are advocating some excessively harsh teaching methods. Really > none of us on this list know what you went through or can say what did and > didn't work for you. We can only speak to the HP world, and as far as that > world goes, Snape DOES abuse Harry and Neville, he DOES disrespect them, he > DOES unfairly punish them and that is what a lot of people are reacting to. > I personally can't see how anybody with a real-live Snape-like teacher could > benefit from that. No, I am not advocating some excessively harsh teaching methods. First of all, I don't really believe the methods Snape uses are 'excessively harsh', but even if I did, I am not *advocating* them. What I am doing is offering an alternative opinion to the idea often expressed on this list that the methods Snape uses are ones that *must* damage students and can *never* possibly be of benefit to students. I don't support Snape's methods. I just don't think he's the Torquemada of teaching. I benefitted from teaching methods like those who he used (and so do literally dozens of other people I know). I benefitted more from methods similar to those used by McGonagall - but I wasn't *harmed* by the Snape methods. I drew great educational benefit from them. I'm not defending the methods - I just don't like the constant assumptions by some people based on their own experiences, or often on educational theory without any experience - that methods like those used by Snape must automatically be bad ones educationally. My experiences differ. And I don't particularly enjoy reading posts that are basically telling me that the experiences I had as a child couldn't possibly have happened. In real life, these methods sometimes work. They *really* do. Some people on this list don't believe that. Fair enough. They're entitled to say why they don't believe it. But if I disagree, I will say so. That's my right and that's all I'm doing. Some people on this list believe that the books are unrealistic because they feel that children who experience teaching methods like Snapes must suffer severe trauma because of them, and could not possibly learn anything from it. Those beliefs are, IMHO, erroneous - because I did experience such methods, and so did many of my friends, and we were not traumatised by them - and we did learn from them - my school had one of the highest academic standards around, and these teachers were among its most effective teachers. Children *can* experience Snape like teachers and prosper in their classrooms - it's not unrealistic that the children taught by Snape aren't gibbering wrecks. I do *not* defend Snape's methods (although I do wonder if in his *specific* case, he'd be less effective if he used other methods) - I just don't think they are as bad as some people make out. I also certainly do not think it's a choice of 'be Snape' or 'do nothing'. When I've made comments like that, it's been in reference to the specific split between the way he treats Gryffindor's and Slytherin's in Harry's potions classes - and in that case, I think the characterisation of method is valid. But not anymore generally than that. The issue in those *specific* cases is whether the methods he uses with Slytherins are better than those he uses with Gryffindors. In my view, the Gryffindors are getting the better deal in those classes - because he doesn't seem to be providing the Slytherins with much at all. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jun 20 22:10:25 2004 From: jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com (slurdodger) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:10:25 -0000 Subject: Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/comments about GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102200 "hettiebe" wrote: > One point that has always worried me is how Snape maintains his DE > standing with Voldemort after the conversations he has had with > Quirrel. Surely his defending the Philosopher's Stone and all that > you don't want me as an enemy and and decide which side your are on > stuff would have given him away given that Voldy was supposed to be > on the back of Quirrel's head at the time. Forgive me if my memory is a little poor, I think Voldemort explain at the end of PS that he only became Quirrel's second face when Quirrel's numerous attempts to steal the stone failed miserably. Of course, I also remember Harry's scar burning when Quirrel's back was facing him. Either way, there are numerous ways for Snape to explain his actions, as he didn't know he was hindering the rebirth of Voldemort, and he was obligated as a teacher to protect the stone so was simply "keeping up appearances". Actually, why on earth did the philosophers stone get moved to the school in the first place anyway? Was Dumbledore somehow aware that someone was going to steal it that particular year? "slurdodger" From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 20 22:48:55 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:48:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DA Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102201 | From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 0:36 AM | I'm curious. What exactly was the purpose of the document | everybody signed | when they joined the DA and were sworn to secrecy? Were they not | allowed to | talk about it at all, or could they talk about it if they weren't | selling the | other DA memebers out. My book isn't here, so I can't check what | it said when | this happned, but Seamus joined later than everybody else. If | they couldn't | talk about it how were they able to recruit? Could any member | find a friend and | say, 'Hey, wanna join our topic secret organization?' [Lee]: Sounds about right, I think. So long as someone wasn't going to run and tell Umbridge, et al, they'd be okay. Hmm--gotta wonder how Hermione rigged that charm to know the dif between recruiting new members and snitching to professors--like Umbridge. Clever, our Hermione! Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 23:33:01 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:33:01 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > Why does VM address PP as Wormtail? Wasn't that just his marauder nickname > in school? Meri now: Yeah, but Wormtail is just such a degrading name, and shows where PP stands in the eyes of LV so well. I bet if LV had had his druthers he would have picked just about any other servant to help with the rebirthing, and that shows with the whole nickname thing. > Why did PP find (look for) VM after POA? Wouldn't it have been safer to just > hide out as a sewer rat somewhere? Or perhaps he was so afraid of his old > "friends," he felt he had to align himself with VM again, even if he didn't > know how much power he would have when he found him. Meri again: Well, PP didn't know that no one would believe Harry about his being alive. He had to assume that he would be hunted and with his cover blown he had to leave the country. snip > It's so clear to me that Fudge is the "One, too cowardly to return. . ." > With all his denying that VM is back at the end of the book, it seems so > clear that he's afraid that he's going to be punished by VM for not > supporting him or looking to help him when VM was in exile. And he has the > ambition and desire to stay MoM which certainly can't happen if he starts > prosecuting DEs and VM. . .they can implicate him and then he'll lose his > job and get thrown into jail! Meri: Once again, I think this line is one of JKR's red herrings. We are supposed to speculate that the three mentioned are different people, but I still think she intended them to mean Snape (left forever), Karkaroff (coward) and Crouch Jr. (loyal servant). snip I also loved how Snape and McGonagall really do act as > DD's right-hand men, they don't question him when he directs them to do > something and they are completely loyal and trusting of him, as he > apparently is of them. Meri: Yes, they do seem to be a faculty version of the trio. I always did also picture DD and MM having a bit of a thing, but maybe that's just me. But that would make Snape Harry and that's just a bit weird! (Just cause I can't really see MM and SS having a thing.) > I am forced to wonder yet again how a movie of GOF can possibly be made with > out scaring the bejesus out of everyone under 10! I mean, I know some kids > are allowed to watch cartoon violence and stuff that's obviously made with > special effects and all, but VM putting the Cruciatus curse on people, > Wormtail cutting off his own hand, etc... That's all seriously disturbing > stuff! I fear that the directing/writing team won't do justice to the > all-important graveyard scene because of the kids in the audience. Ideally, > I'd think that making an accurate representation of the book into a movie > would require an "R" rating, and they won't want to have a "R" rating for it > if they want to market it primarily to kids. Meri: I actually don't want them to make GoF into a movie, for several reasons. First off, too much will have to be cut. I've allready heard that the Dursleys are being cut out, which will mean that my fave scene in the book (when the Weasleys Floo to No. 4 and get stuck in the fireplace) will not be there. Second, the violence will surely be toned down. And thirdly, really hot Cedric will have to die still, and admiting that I cried at the end of a HP movie is way lamer than admitting I cried at the end of Return of the King (though I was a touch emotional at the end of PoA). > I felt SO bad for Harry. What an ordeal to go through. And who knows how > much of his acting out and anger in OOTP isn't at least partly a result of > his trauma at the end of GOF. After all, right after that he's left alone > for most of the summer (IIRC. . .if I don't, I apologize- -I'm about to read > OOTP) to deal with his memories of that night. That was a pretty horrible > experience and he gets virtually no support almost immediately after it > happens. Meri: I concur. Had Harry not been left to wallow in his grief and guilt and been given info and something to do immediatley, then IMHO he would not at all been in such a bad place at the begining of Order. (I just remember that line when he's trying to make a Patronus in Dudley Demented, "there was no happiness in him." I cry almost every time I read that!) > I have changed my mind about POA being my favorite book. I think GoF is now. > I've read it at least 3-4 times now and for some reason, in the past, I > always thought it was too complicated. But I followed things much better now > regarding what Barty Crouch, Jr. did and how things happened, and at the end > I had tears in my eyes when Lily and James come out of the wand. Meri: GoF is definately my fave. Order is the best book of all five, but Goblet will always be my top. From the TT to the World Cup to Crouch!Moody to Krum and Cedric and R and H's little thang...it's just all good. And any time I read it I can never stop in the middle of the last ten chapters. I cry whenever DD eulogizes Ced and people think I am nuts. But yes, major props to GoF! Meri From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 20 23:38:10 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:38:10 +1000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <95743966.20040620153520@mindspring.com> References: Message-ID: <40D6AC82.28449.2A47C4A@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102203 Taking this out of a particular thread, just so I can express what I'm trying to say without feeling bound into replying to particular comments. First of all, let me make something clear here - I could say a great deal more about my education than I have on this list - because, it's not directly on-topic I, of course, limit what I say and only mention enough to give a little bit of context, but I'd appreciate if people could bear in mind when they read what I've written, that there is a huge amount of background to my views. Because I'm only talking about little snippets, out of context people don't really know exactly where I am coming from - there's a book coming out next year in the US, which I wrote a chapter of describing some aspects of my school experience, but even that doesn't go into this stuff. I am actually in discussion about writing an entire book about my schooling and my childhood because there is that much to say. I'm only giving snippets here that don't give anywhere near the full story. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail if people wanted to know - but HPFGU is not the place for it, so I limit myself to saying the minimum I feel I need to, to give any context at all. Now... to Snape. The reason I defend Snape's teaching methods isn't because I particularly agree with them. I certainly do not believe Snape is the ideal teacher, or anything close to it. But I just have the feeling that many people are conflating multiple issues into a single monolithic view of Snape, and I don't think that's particularly fair. I personally see two *separate* issues when it comes to Snape and his teaching. (1) his specific treatment of a specific individual; (2) his general pedeagogical techniques. With regards to point #1, I think Snape is pretty close to totally undefendable. His treatment of Harry is indefensible, and reprehensible. To an extent, it may be understandable in some ways, but that doesn't make it right. I truly believe he unfairly targets Harry because of resentment of James Potter - and there's no excuse for that. To his credit, on occasion, I think Snape has tried to do the right thing when it comes to Harry - he has protected him, and I think he made a sincere initial effort to try and teach him occlumency. But even on these occasions, Snape's "good intentions" are overlaid onto his irrational hatred, and he can't move beyond them. My point is that Snape's general treatment of Harry Potter as an individual is purely and simply wrong IMHO. I will *not* defend it. I do *not* defend it. But it's also, IMHO, unique. I don't think Snape targets anyone else in the same way he targets Harry. We certainly see him target Hermione on occasion - and Neville on occasion - but it doesn't seem to me to be the same as his targeting of Harry. Which is unremitting, constant, and born of specific animus. What we see directed towards Hermione and Neville is different, IMHO. We're talking specific instances, not an uremitting program of hostility targeting them specifically. Which brings me to point #2, Snape's general pedagogical technique. This is the area where I *will* defend Snape to an extent. Not because I think the methods he uses are ideal, by any means. Not because I think they are even particularly good methods. But because I just don't think they are bad as some people seek to make out. I think there's a significant number of people on this list who don't make any distinction between Snape's treatment of Harry, and his general teaching practice. Whereas I think there is a real distinction. His treatment of Harry is anomalous to his normal teaching practice. But people conflate the two - there are a lot of people on the list who allow their general opinion of Snape's teaching methods to be influenced by their opinion of how Snape treats Harry. I just think the two things should be considered separately, based on their own merits. That's my opinion, and I don't really expect others to agree with it necessarily. But I need to explain because if I didn't make that distinction, I certainly wouldn't defend Snape. Snape teaches a subject that is - from what we can see in the books - unusually difficult, and fairly uncompromising. Minor mistakes - missing a single ingredient or a single step - renders the entire end result virtually *worthless*. With other subjects we see at Hogwarts, this really isn't the case - at least not to the same extent. History of Magic - well, like most humanities type classes, it's very possible to be partly correct, or nearly completely correct, as well as totally correct. There's a lot of grey areas involved. Transfiguration - we have numerous references to students who've only half completed a particular transfiguration - it's a subject where (though I am sure McGonagall's standards are just as high as Snape's, if not higher) at least if you're partly correct you can see some progress. Potions is different. If you get it wrong - it's worthless. Maybe even worse than useless - something meant to heal or enhance, could kill. There is no middle ground. That imposes particular standards on a teacher. Unlike many other subjects, near enough ain't anywhere near good enough. This means that you can't *let* a student get away with sloppy work. Because it either works - or it doesn't (there does seem to be some small grey area when it comes to precise colour or consistency, etc - but it's still has to work, and not kill the imbiber). So Snape has a duty to make sure his students *learn*. He can't afford to go soft on them. He can't *afford* to make allowances for Neville. He can't afford to let Hermione dominate the classroom, giving other students the chance to sit back and coast. I don't personally like the way he uses to deal with these issues - I think he goes too far with both Hermione and Neville - but I think they are the outliers - Neville is the least competent student in the class (at least out of those he bothers to teach - as I've said, I have the distinct impression the Slytherins get away with learning nothing, so Crabbe and Goyle can be ignored). Hermione is the most. Snape is a hard taskmaster. When his students do not perform to the standard he expects, he lets them know about it. There is nothing invalid about that as a method of teaching. Not all teachers do it, but plenty do, and their students often learn very effectively in the classroom. They work harder to avoid being told off. Is that the best way of teaching? No, not in my opinion - but there isn't any single best way. I guess my view really is that people see Snape's indefensible treatment of Harry (and that is how I would characterise it) and then assume that this has some connection to his teaching methods, and they allow that to colour their opinion of his teaching methods. I see it differently. I think his treatment of Harry is anomalous. It's got nothing to do with his normal way of teaching. He hates Harry - and he'd hate Harry even if he was 'Teacher of the Year' material. His teaching methods should be judged on their own merits - in my case, when I do that, I don't think they are that bad - although I don't think they are that good either. My view is based largely on my own experiences, of course - of learning effectively in such classes, and suffering no ill effects because of them. But I *know* personally that a student can prosper in such an environment - because my classmates and I did. We often did even better in many ways in other classes where other methods were used. There are better ways. But I don't think Snape is causing incredible harm to his students. Every indication I see in the novels leads me to think he's a generally effective teacher. And I will say so. (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 23:20:43 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:20:43 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102204 Tara wrote: > > After all the books have been published and analyzed, Jo might be more direct in her responses to lingering questions. Personally, I'm hoping she'll write some kind of Potter encyclopedia explaining all the back-stories and other details for which we clamor. < < You may not have to wait this long Tara. In the Book Day interview online JKR answered a question by saying that she intends to give us all the backstory we need before the series is over. Personally I am very excited about this and I really hope we see a lot more of the Marauders in it. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jun 20 23:23:59 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:23:59 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102205 Tara wrote: > After all the books have been published and analyzed, Jo might be > more direct in her responses to lingering questions. Personally, > I'm hoping she'll write some kind of Potter encyclopedia explaining > all the back-stories and other details for which we clamor. Oh and BTW something I should have added to my last post. In case you haven't seen it at JKRowling.com you can find a page of Jo's unused notes. Notes which she had written on certain characters to refer to when writing there is some back story in them so have a look if you haven't already. It's under the 'Extra Stuff' heading. Valky From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jun 21 00:06:48 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:06:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers Message-ID: <138.308a2082.2e078098@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102206 In a message dated 6/20/04 1:01:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Del replies : There's two major differences between Snape and I : 1. I have dealt with my past problems, realized that I didn't like it, decided long ago I didn't want to repeat it. We don't know that Snape even thought about his past, and much less what kind of decision he took. It feels to me that for him everything is still very much present.< That I agree with, it is still present for Snape, and also Sirius. In POA, Snape acts like Sirius and he were still in school. He hasn't grown up, at least with Sirius in some ways he has grown up despite being in Azkaban. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 00:36:20 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:36:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102207 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > > wrote: > > [about a possible attack on Privet Drive in the opening of Book Six] > > > Thirdly, it would be the final straw for Vernon, but I don't > think she'll kill him off. It would be much worse for him to have to > live with the destruction of his property and the possible revelation > > that his wife and son were magical. Lady McBeth: I somehow doubt that JKR is going to abandon the Privet Drive plot device. She seems to stick to pattern pretty consistently. Jo has said that this will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive. It immediately came to mind that Harry might be called on to testify in the trials of those rounded up in the MOM. Only one of the children could tell a jury what happened before the adults arrived. The adults cannot testify to what they didn't see . . . its hearsay. I see a return to 12 GP to facilitate easy travel between the MOM and home. Perhaps Tom Riddle isn't the only person who kept a diary. There's certainly tons of possibilities for Harry finding cool, forgotten stuff in the old mansion. LMB From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 01:12:32 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621011232.64993.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102208 I am rereading OotP. I just finished Ch 23 "Christmas on the Closed Ward". At the end we see: ....She did not seem to want to speak, or perhaps was not able to, but she made timid motions toward Neville, holding something in her outstretched hand. "Again?" said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, Alice dear, very well - Neville, take it, whatever it is..." But Neville had already stretched out his hand, into which his mother dropped an empty Droobles Blowing Gum wrapper. "Very nice, dear," said Neville's grandmother in a falsely cheery voice, patting his mother on the shoulder. But Neville said quietly, "Thanks Mum." "...Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now..." I have tried accessing this in the Lexicon and came up with nothing, so sorry if this has already been discussed. The first time I read this scene, I took the whole thing at face value. On the outside, it looks like a poor, pitiful woman trying to give away pieces of paper. We see this and things similar in the mentally ill and feeble all the time. But is it? Could this be signs of Alice trying to come out of her stupor? Could she be trying to communicate with her son? Is there anything on the papers? Could she have recovered that far? Does she know of a danger to her son that is helping her to fight to regain her right mind in order to warn him? We had to have seen that scene for a reason. We could have just seen the two of them leaving, maybe even with his mother looking out, but to add in the giving of the wrapper. It just feels..... I don't know.... like there is more to it than meets the eye. Any ideas? Moonmyyst (who has finally gotten most of the white paint out of her black show dog's coat without loosing too much fur or temper!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 02:00:32 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:00:32 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40D6AC82.28449.2A47C4A@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102209 >Shaun snipped: > The reason I defend Snape's teaching methods isn't because I > particularly agree with them. I certainly do not believe Snape is > the ideal teacher, or anything close to it. But I just have the > feeling that many people are conflating multiple issues into a > single monolithic view of Snape, and I don't think that's > particularly fair. > > I personally see two *separate* issues when it comes to Snape and > his teaching. (1) his specific treatment of a specific individual; > (2) his general pedeagogical techniques. >snipped really good post< Snow replies: I feel somewhat the way that you do Shaun with slight variations. I take a slightly different approach and think of what a parent would do if their child was Harry and Snape mistreated him. Let's take a look at Harry's parent (if he had one) calling a conference with Snape: The Parent Teacher Conference Parent: My son Harry is coming home everyday with stories of mistreatment and I thought it best to contact you personally to find out your side of what has been going on. Snape: I have only been attempting to teach your son. I can see potential for him to learn if he only took my course seriously. But then again Harry never has to take anything seriously does he? Someone will always get him out of his mess even if it means risking their neck. Parent: I think that last statement was totally uncalled for; you don't know the half of what he has been through. Snape: Oh I don't do I? Could it be that it is you who does not understand to what extent others have risked their lives to ensure this boys safety? Harry never seems to concern himself beyond his own inquisitiveness wh Parent: I see in front of me a teacher who is going outside the teacher/student relationship and purposely antagonizing my child. Snape: Teacher/student relationship? Huh You would have to have an actual student who wanted to put forth an effort to actually have a relationship of that magnitude. Parent: Are you trying to tell me that Harry is not attempting to do what you ask of him? Snape: That is exactly what I am saying! Parent: Well Harry comes home from school every day and tells me that he adds all his ingredients, cooks his potion and then you come along and destroy it and give him a 0 Snape: Let me ask you a question, do you wish to keep your son alive? Parent: Of course I do say what are you suggesting? Snape: I am suggesting madam, that if you wish to keep your son alive in my class you had best teach him to follow my directions. My class would be the equivalent in the muggle world to disarming a bomb. It is absolutely imperative to pay attention to detail, because in the end no one can bring Harry back from the dead. If he makes one wrong move on directions it could be his life or someone else's. Do you understand? It may sometimes appear that I am being rather harsh with the boy but in the end it may save him his own life. Parent: I think I understand what you are saying but I still will ask that you keep your personal feelings towards Harry out of the classroom. Snape: I have no personal disliking to the boy however I do dislike the fact that people like yourself allow him protection and excuses for all the reckless ways in which he acts without regard or consequence as a result of his actions. This only allows for the boy to continue to act in this same rash behavior. To be cont. by... Snow: who realizes that this should have been on T-Bay but isn't as talented as posters in the past were at it I would probably sink the ship :) From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 21 02:18:24 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:18:24 -0000 Subject: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102210 Carolyn a_reader wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102174 : << the Privet Drive scenario may be dispensed with altogether from Book 6 onwards, as no longer necessary to the plot. She might even have some fun actually blowing it up, as a metaphor for the destruction of dullness. >> Destruction of dullness, or destruction of security? I imagine destruction of dullness to be a Good Thing, thus out of book in a story about Bad Things Happening.d Lee Storm wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102192 : << I would think that legilimency would have its ethical "code of conduct," if you will. In most SF that speaks of telepathy or empathy or any mind contacting ability, there is a privacy restriction involved, so I would be surprised if the same didn't hold true with legilimency. >> A wizard who is an ethical person would use Legilimency in an ethical way. A wizard who is not an ethical person (as in my previous post, I believe that wizards raise their children to believe that ethics are optional) will use Legilimency however he/she wants. We're heard of Ministry regulation of Animagic and Apparation, but not of Legilimency Moonmyst wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102208 : << Could this be signs of Alice trying to come out of her stupor? Could she be trying to communicate with her son? Is there anything on the papers? Could she have recovered that far? Does she know of a danger to her son that is helping her to fight to regain her right mind in order to warn him? >> Last summer there were endless attempts to turn "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum" into an anagram of "Lucius Malfoy is bribing the Healers to drug the Longbottoms to prevent them from recovering their memories and testifying that he was one of their attackers" as the message that Alice was trying to tell Neville. Me, in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102143 : << I'm thinking, it might have seemed good to Molly to name twin sons Fabian and Gideon after her brothers (especially if her brothers happened to be twins) >> JKR's website says that Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Maybe Bill (surely Bilius Arthur Weasley) and Charlie are named after Arther's brothers (maybe named in alphabetical order, making The Burrow their ancestral home, inherited by Arthur as oldest son), so it was Molly's turn to name babies after brothers. Maybe Percy was named after Molly's father: Percy Prewett is the kind of name JKR seems to like. Where are Arthur's brothers' children? The MINIMUM way that Lucius's statement, quoted by Draco, that "all the Weasleys" have red hair, no money, and more children than they can afford, can be true is if each brother has at least 3 children. But she killed my lovely vision of Arthur having had 3 or 4 older siblings who, between them, had over 20 red-haired children at Hogwarts overlapping with Lucius's school days. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 21 02:20:56 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:20:56 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Teachers, Pomfrey's Job, was Re: What if other... In-Reply-To: <00a001c45645$6ccea270$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102211 > Alina: > > I think it would make sense for Pomfrey to be the one responsible for > administering the potion to Lupin as well, but it would still be Snape who'd > be making it, after all, I don't think Mme Pomfrey creates things like > Skele-Gro either, just stocks up on them and knows what to give to whom. > Snape would whip up batches of Wolfsbane and deliver them to Pomfrey instead > of Lupin and I also think she'd be perfect at making sure that he drinks it > no matter what. Potioncat: Except it's not the way it's being done in PoA. Snape makes it. And at least once, brings it to Lupin. We aren't told why, but I'm sure we could all come up with good reasons. I'd bet it's one way security minded Snape can keep an eye on Lupin. From clr1971 at alltel.net Mon Jun 21 02:40:07 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:40:07 -0400 Subject: release of softcover OotP / Tom's Diary References: <1087521388.77828.61811.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00c601c45739$10da2260$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102212 >Speaking of which, I wish we knew when the softcover editions >for OotP are coming out... >Arya Christina: August 1, $9.99 list price according to my supplier. I'm re-reading CoS again and I've just passed the part where Harry goes into Tom's memories in the diary. Has anyone thought that the diary is like a pensieve? Is JKR using the Pensieves and diary as a way for Harry to understand things from another's POV and for us to get more information since everything we see and hear is from Harry anyway. We don't see into DD's office, for example, unless Harry is there. Someone noted that Harry doesn't know how to get out of a pensieve on his own - both times DD and Snape brought him out of the memory. But in the diary he does get out of the memory apparently when that particular memory ends. I wonder if the pensieves would have done the same - tossed him out when the memory was over, but he was interrupted. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From clr1971 at alltel.net Mon Jun 21 02:56:57 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:56:57 -0400 Subject: Hogwarts as a school References: <1087552468.10095.37639.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c4573b$6aae20a0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102213 >In the real world of modern education, I somehow doubt >Hogwarts would survive as a school. But in the Wizarding >world, it seems to produce the kids they want. >Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Christina: I'm still behind, but I had to say this post made a lot of sense and was very well thought out. You are absolutely right. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From k_2324 at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 20 23:56:58 2004 From: k_2324 at yahoo.com.au (k_2324) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:56:58 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <40D69C94.14821.266428B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102214 Lol, I totally agree. The first thought that came to my mind when reading the books is the Slytherins are getting it pretty rough. The OWLs are externally marked exams, are they not. The Slytherin students are going to find it difficult doing well in these exams after years of being babied and spoilt by Severus. It constantly happens in real life. For example the transitioning between high school and University. Some private and Catholic schools spoil and hand feed their students information. Sure, they get stellar marks on their final exams, but once they reach University where the lecturers don't care, they are lost. Once they reach University and are now treated like an adult, you are expected to do your own research, it's your responsibility to do work at home, it's your responsibility to ensure you understand everything after each lecture. Half of these people drop out in the first year. Severus's teaching methods will inspire the Gryffindors to make sure they KNOW their work before they come to class. Harry's very first lesson with Severus should have made that clear to him. Not being able to answer Severus's questions should have reinforced the idea that before class, you should read the material. Sure Severus takes points off him and seems a bit harsher on him than other people, but so what. It is unreasonable to go through life expecting everyone to like you. While Severus's teaching methods are not the most effective, neither is it terribly ineffective. It is the Slytherins that are getting the rough end of the stick where his teaching methods are concerned. A lot of Gryffindors should do well, purely because Severus has been constantly on their back for the past 5 years. "k_2324" From ariana at astele.co.uk Mon Jun 21 00:09:02 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:09:02 +0100 Subject: Ambiguous JKR / backstory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621000719.WIHU21846.mta08-svc.ntlworld.com@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 102215 Tara wrote: > > > After all the books have been published and analyzed, Jo might > > be more direct in her responses to lingering questions. Personally, > > I'm hoping she'll write some kind of Potter encyclopedia explaining > > all the back-stories and other details for which we clamor. < < Valky: > You may not have to wait this long Tara. > In the Book Day interview online JKR answered a question by saying > that she intends to give us all the backstory we need before the > series is over. Personally I am very excited about this and I really > hope we see a lot more of the Marauders in it. I've noticed that the books where the Marauders feature most -- PoA and OotP -- seem to top most book rankings by fans, so I suspect quite a few people are looking forward to more backstory about them. I know I am! The scene after their OWLs in OotP was one of the high points of the book, IMHO. However, the backstory I'm most looking forward to is why Dumbledore trusts Snape. I think JKR said something on the lines of "Let's just say that Snape has told Dumbledore his story, and Dumbledore believes him". What could Snape have said that would convince Dumbledore that he's definitely left the Dark Side? I realise at this point that you have no idea who I am, though I've met a few of you in the chat tonight. Hello, I'm Ariana, new list member, and hopefully occasional participant, time permitting... Ariana From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 01:31:48 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:31:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment ....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102216 "anasazi_pr" wrote: > > Considering that Angelina, Fred, George, > > Katie and Alicia are leaving the team upon graduation at the end of > > Harry's Fifth Year. > ------------- Arya: > Correction: > > Ginny mentions to Harry that Chasers Angelina and Alicia are leaving > next year, but not Katie. So Katie can be assumed to be coming back > for her 7th year. But Katie has to be in the same year as Fred and George. When Harry Potter joined the Quiditch team, he was in his first year, and the first 1st year to join a house team in a century. We know that Katie was already on the team before Harry joined, and no one else was signed on with Harry in his first year. Since Katie joined a year a before Harry and she couldn't have been a first year when she did, she must be in her third year when Harry joins the team. -Luke From clr1971 at alltel.net Mon Jun 21 03:29:23 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:29:23 -0400 Subject: WW vs our world / article / book 6 in outline References: <1087567153.9188.30923.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00db01c4573f$f2eb9ca0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102217 Del : It's abuse in OUR eyes, but it doesn't >seem to be so in the WW's eyes. We must be careful not to >apply our own morals on another culture. Christina: The Prime Directive, right? Sorry, that's from something else : ) David wrote that: >Ms Giardina wrote : "But a closer analysis demonstrates that the >writer is merely using this strategy to sell adult ideas such as: >'adults know best', and, 'parents are a source of security when >things get tough'," she said. Christina: And this is wrong why? I admit that when I was a teenager in the 80s I didn't have a good parental role model and all the teen movies - The Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, etc. - really spoke out to me, as well as Twisted Sister's "We're Not Gonna Take It". Today there is the cartoon "Kids Next Door" about a secret kid organization against teens and grownups and the movie "Freaky Friday" where a teen daughter and her mom come to understand each other just a little bit better. It's a constant theme that will never go away. I know not everyone has parents or adults who know best or who offer security but I hope that my son knows that I am trying to make the world a safe place for him as much as I can. For the HP books I don't think they are adult books pretending to be kid's books. JKR is writing her story - it just happens to be about a young man, not an adult, and it appeals to all ages. Harry does seem to be impulsive and act before thinking like all kids do at times, but telling him "You should have gone to an adult, you should have listened to the adults" wouldn't have made him do anything differently. He was so certain he was right about Sirius that he was going to run off no matter what. I think today's adults really don't give today's kids enough credit. This goes along with the thread about changing the words in the British / American versions. I love hearing the British words in the books. My son even starting calling me "Mum" because he thought it was neat. I think kids are really smarter than we give them credit for. If a book was talking down to them I think they would realize it and put it away. >boyd - who is also shocked (shocked!) to find that OoP is a year >old and yet book is still only in outline form (per JKR website) Christina: I know Boyd, me too, but she is only one person and she did have a baby this year. Now I've heard her say she started on the book during her pregnancy, took 3 months off when the baby was born, and is now working daily on book 6 with her outline *in front of her* as she works. I can't blame her for taking time off - I don't remember my son's first 3 months, I was a zombie. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 21 04:34:48 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:34:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102218 | From: Dhyana | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:17 AM | | The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're | agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" | (p 346, US | edition). | | But when the list is being passed around and after everyone | signed it, there | was no mention of the trio signing it. IMO, it sounds as if | Hermione passed | the parchment around for everybody else to sign, but didn't | actually sign it | herself or have Harry and Ron sign it. This would possibly leave | the three of | them free to recruit new members in the future, whom they judged to be | trustworthy. | -Dhyana Cool spelling of your name. :-) And, that thought sounds quite plausible. Hermione wouldn't need to include Harry and Ron on the document because she knows and trusts them and knows that none of the trio would give the DA away to anyone who wasn't trustworthy...at least, not by choice. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 04:58:44 2004 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale Message-ID: <20040621045844.65791.qmail@web51906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102219 Hello all! In the mood for some more canon- only discussion? SUMMARY: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale Realizing that Hagrid has just returned to Hogwarts and needing some cheer after Harry had gotten his lifetime ban from Quidditch, the Trio sets off for Hagrids as this chapter begins. Though Hagrid is pleased to see the kids, Harry, Ron and Hermione are shocked to see Hagrids pound of mince instead of a face, as Ron puts it. Despite urging from his friends, Hagrid refuses to tell what caused his injuries or to seek treatments more extensive than slapping a greenishly bloody dragon steak on his bruised face. Since the nosyinterferin trio already guessed that he was Dumbledores emissary to the giants (and because he wants to hear about the dementors attack on Harry), Hagrid tells HRH the details of his adventures. Along with Madame Maxime, a half-giant in her own right, Hagrid had set off right after term ended at the end of Harrys fourth year. Because Hagrid didnt want to be caught using magic and because their mission is suppose to be secret, it took about a month for the pair to arrive at their destination after giving the berk tailing them the slip. Hagrid and Olympe found a group of giants living bunched up together for their own protection in the mountains. Once consisting of about a hundred different tribes worldwide, the population of giants has been dwindling due to natural attrition, deaths at the hands of wizards, and most significantly, in-fighting. Since being forced into each others too-close company by wizards who wanted the giants to live far away from the wizarding world, the escalation of internal strife has drastically reduced the race of giants to about only 80 individuals. The biggest, ugliest and the laziest of the group was the Gurg named Karkus. As the chief, Karkus received Dumbledores gift of a branch of Gubraithian fire from the two envoys, who asked only that he speak to them the next day. Keeping their promise, Hagrid and Olympe returned the next day with another gift, this time an indestructible goblin-made battle helmet. The pair took their time in giving the giants the message from Dumbledore to make sure that they didnt overload the giants who may then be tempted to kill Hagrid and Olympe just to simplify things. This second meeting went well and the pair left that day hopeful and promising to return. Alas, before the third meeting with Karkus, another giant of the group named Golgomath staged a coup d'tat and became the new Gurg. As Hagrid presented him with a great roll of dragon skin, Golgomaths minions attacked Hagrid. Luckily, Olympe isnt the headmistress of Beauxbatons for nothing and used magic to rescue Hagrid. As the giants hate wizards who use magic against them, this turn of events meant the two had to go underground with their mission. While hiding out in caves, rethinking their strategy, Hagrid and Olympe discovered that Macnair and another DE had taken a page out of their book and were visiting Golgomath every day, bringing gifts to the very receptive new Gurg. Now without a hope of persuading Golgomath to see things Dumbledores way, Hagrid and Olympe proceeded to befriend the giants who hadnt wanted Golgomath as Gurg. They found the beaten-to-a-pulp giants hiding in cramped caves, nursing their injuriesbut they also spotted the DEs prowling around looking for the half-giants. Before long, Golgomaths lot raided the caves and put the giants who survived off of Hagrid and Olympes recruitment efforts. Despite the fact that no immediate good has come out of his visit to the giants, Hagrid did learn of his mothers fate: she has died years ago. HRH change the subject by returning to interrogating Hagrid about his injuries. Before they gain any ground, Umbridge arrives to investigate the three sets of footprints that lead to Hagrids door. Imperiously, Umbridge invades Hagrids personal space, going as far as to peer under his bed and open his cupboards without so much as a by-your-leave while HRH huddle in a corner under the invisibility cloak. Being the unconvincing liar that he is, Hagrid babbles in response to Umbridges interrogation. Umbridge seems to know something of the true nature of Hagrids trip: she asks whether Hagrids change o scene involved mountain scenery. Getting nowhere with Hagrid, Umbridge leaves obviously not buying any of Hagrids feeble explanations of the footprints, his injuries or his late return to Hogwarts. Despite being told by Umbridge that shell be inspecting his teaching as part of the Ministrys effort to weed out unsatisfactory teachers, Hagrid refuses to listen to Hermione when she urges him to be on his guard when it comes to his lessons. Even with their best efforts at making Hagrid understand that the High Inquisitor is on the war path when it comes to teachers close to Dumbledore, the trio learns that Hagrid has interestin and impressive creatures saved for their O.W.L. year. This chapter ends with Hermione determined to get through to Hagrid somehow and keep him from being sackedeven if it means shed have to plan his lessons for him. QUESTIONS to ponder: [1] Hagrids two sets of visitors have one thing in common: both the Trio and Umbridge are there to investigate Hagrids long absence. The motives are vastly different however, as are the manner in which they tried to get info out of Hagrid and the success of such efforts. Discuss these differences. [2] Given what we know of the history between the giants and humans (namely the WW), what might be reasons on the giants part for and against siding with Dumbledore? What are the reasons for and against siding with Voldemort and his DEs? [3] Going forward, what can either side do to win over the giants support? Dumbledores trust in two half-giants may appeal to the giants but given their dire straits, what could Voldemort offer them that may provide relief from their currently extremely unstable living situation? What can Dumbledore do? [4] With the revelation of his mothers death in this chapter, Hagrid is now confirmed to be another example of orphans in the HP books. Compare and contrast Hagrid with Harry, Tom Riddle/LV, Neville, etc. How has each orphans loss of parental figures and family ties affected their lives and the decisions that they make? What influences did the people (or the lack of thereof) in their lives who fill such voids have on who they are now? [5] Has a question arisen from this chapter for you? Pose itplease! :) NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 05:11:46 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 05:11:46 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102220 vmonte: Did Lily have any female friends? We know a lot about James's friends but nothing at all about Lily's pals. Did Harry have a Godmother? I suppose we will have to wait and see. vivian - just wondering From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 05:28:37 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 05:28:37 -0000 Subject: FILK: In Potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102221 Happy birthday OOP! In Potions (OOP, Chap. 24, 26) To the tune of Tom Lehrer's Pollution Here Tom himself sing it at: http://soundamerica.com/sounds/comedy/Tom_Lehrer/ Dedicated to Gail, my partner in crime SNAPE: I am told by Hogwarts head man, see, I must teach you Occlumency There's one thing that you must not discuss: Don't dare to utter of our syllabus In Potions, in Potions, You must say, "Remedial Class" Then shut your trap Lest Dolores nail our ass! HARRY See the scuttlebutt spread by Corner How my potions are sub-normaler This helps display how rumors get spread They say I'm in Snape's Special Ed MICHAEL CORNER & ZACHIARIAS SMITH In Potions, in Potions, Though he teaches Dark Arts Defense When boiling his brews He is sing'larly dense SNAPE: Every Monday at 6 p.m. Another evening of tedium Each lesson turns out the same old grind - The tip of my wand hits the back of his mind Emotion, emotion. Wear your heart proud on your sleeve Voldy prevails `Gainst the weak and na?ve Lots of junk there inside your brain But there's one thing you had best explain Augustus Rookwood, who is down upon his knees, Proves you've had dreams about DEs! So vow off those visions Leave the Death Eaters to me Hear this, Harry Potter - I just told ya not ta Dream of Mys- (Legilimens!) ?Teries! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today for OOP's 1st anniversary with 78 new filks!) From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 05:40:16 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621054016.92968.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102222 Lol, I totally agree. The first thought that came to my mind when reading the books is the Slytherins are getting it pretty rough. The OWLs are externally marked exams, are they not. The Slytherin students are going to find it difficult doing well in these exams after years of being babied and spoilt by Severus. It constantly happens in real life. For example the transitioning between high school and University. Some private and Catholic schools spoil and hand feed their students information. Sure, they get stellar marks on their final exams, but once they reach University where the lecturers don't care, they are lost. Once they reach University and are now treated like an adult, you are expected to do your own research, it's your responsibility to do work at home, it's your responsibility to ensure you understand everything after each lecture. Half of these people drop out in the first year. Do you actually know anyone who went to a private school? Or are you just saying this? I mean in my experienc, I went to a Catholic school my entire life it's exactly the opposite. We were never spoon fed anything. I had to do all my research, all my work. I graduated high school with a 2.2, I graduated college with at 3.9? Sounds to me like I learned something from my earlier education. And I do not know ONE person that I went to school with that dropped out, some were lost at first but the truth of it is so were a lot of other freshman. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 21 05:46:59 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:46:59 +1000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40D702F3.791.15BFC6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102223 Just got back from seeing PoA again - and I just wanted to raise a question based on seeing it. I thought about if this belonged on the Movie list or not, but I'm asking here because what I'm trying to find out is if anyone can offer any reasons from the canon to *ignore* this piece of information from the movie. As I've mentioned previously, I intend to do a large post or document in the near future analysing every piece of material referencing astronomical information from the novels, in the context of how well it matches real world astronomy. To do this accurately, I need the best possible idea of where Hogwarts is located - the more accurate the better. And in the movie version of PoA, it is mentioned that Sirius Black has been seen near (I think) Dufftown, and that is quite near Hogwarts. This is more information than is given in the book itself. I'm not familiar with Scotland - but I looked up Dufftown, and it looks kind of plausible for Hogwarts to be in that vicinity to me. I'm just wondering if people who know the geography better can come up with any reasons Hogwarts couldn't be in that area. Any location I choose is going to be somewhat arbitrary, of course - but I have to choose somewhere, so I'm looking for anything potentially identifying. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 21 06:46:28 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:46:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alice Longbottom References: <20040621011232.64993.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c4575b$7b4c60a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102224 > The first time I read this scene, I took the whole thing at face value. On the outside, it looks like a poor, pitiful woman trying to give away pieces of paper. We see this and things similar in the mentally ill and feeble all the time. > > But is it? Could this be signs of Alice trying to come out of her stupor? Could she be trying to communicate with her son? Is there anything on the papers? Could she have recovered that far? Does she know of a danger to her son that is helping her to fight to regain her right mind in order to warn him? We had to have seen that scene for a reason. We could have just seen the two of them leaving, maybe even with his mother looking out, but to add in the giving of the wrapper. It just feels..... I don't know.... like there is more to it than meets the eye. > > Any ideas? > > Moonmyyst (who has finally gotten most of the white paint out of her black show dog's coat without loosing too much fur or temper!!) To me, this is the saddest scene in all five books to date. I feel heartbreakingly sad for Neville, even sadder than I do for Harry. It seems to me a horrible thing that Neville's parents should be so dangled in front of his nose, there but not really there. I don't think there's anything written on that piece of wrapper, I think it's that woman's poor tortured mind retaining some instinctual knowledge that Neville is important to her. I think it says a lot about Neville's need to feel a parental love that he keeps it. Alina. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 07:23:27 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:23:27 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): > > I think Harry has plenty of reasons, accumulated over years, to > > believe that he has unique dreams that reflect real events, and > > most of them are 'realtime' events; they occur as he dreams them. > > Del replies : > But Harry has been dreaming of that corridor for a whole year now ! > Do you truly think that each time Harry dreams of it, LV actually > goes in the MoM, down in the DoM, through the doors, down the alley > in the Prophecy Room, each time a bit further but never to the end? > I don't think so. ... those dreams are NOT about *realtime* events. > > Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): Asian_Lovr2: They are 'realtime' in the sense that the coincide with the real times when Voldemort is obsessively thinking about the Dept of Mysteries and mentally planning his attack on that Department. So the realtime event isn't Voldemort being in the D.O.M. but Voldemort very deep in thought /about/ being in the D.O.M. > > Asian_lovr2 (precious statement): > > Given that much direct and indirect evidence, I'm not surprise the > > he believed the Sirius/DoM dream; everything in it was real with > > the exception of one little detail. > > Del replies : > In fact, everything in it was FAKE, but it was all happening in a > place that truly exists. Remember, LV *never* went in the DoM. It's > just like a movie shot in a real location : the place is real, but > the whole story is fake. > > Del Asian_Lovr2 now replies: First note in my original statement that I said MOST of Harry's special dreams are of realtime events, but not all of them. Next in Harry's dreams about the Dept of Mysteries, nothing ever happens. That is, there is place and presences but not event; he's just there. In his final dream in which Sirius and Voldemort appear, that is the first time Harry has ever reached his objective, and it is the first time there is an /Event/ of any significants tied to the dream. Note that, his dream about Arthur's attack wasn't much different from the standard dream except he felt different, he felt like a snake. But, until the EVENT of Mr. Weasley's attack, it was, as I said before, just a dream about a place and his (Harry's) presents there. When Mr. Weasley was attack, the dream was vitally and significantly changed; it became an event. A real and realtime event. That event, Mr Weasley's attack, was the authorial prelude to Sirius's apparent attack. That event set Harry up to believe the second attack on Sirius was just as real. I still say that Harry's previous experience with his dream massively overwhelmed the logic and common sense that Herione tried to inject. Hermione's doubt, in a sense, is JKR confirming our, the readers, doubt. She, the author, through Hermione, is confirming that Harry's belief is illogical, but Harry's own previous experience, as I said, overwhelms that common sense. I'm not denying you your opinion, I'm just saying that while I see Harry actions as wrong and illogical, at the same time, perfectly understandable given his experience. Even if Harry had his own element of doubt, could he take a chance, could he dare ignore what he saw, could he live with himself if he did nothing and Sirius was killed? I don't think so. Steve From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 07:42:48 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:42:48 -0000 Subject: Thought about Headquarters security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > I knew there would be people who disagreed with the possibility, but > I was more interested in discussing the "what if?" possibilities. > If you don't agree with the possibility of Voldemort gaining access > in this manner, suppose then that Voldemort is in hiding near the > area where Dumbledore informs some other character of the location > of the headquarters. In that manner, then Voldemort has access to > the headquarters. What do you think might happen then? Asian_lovr2/Steve: "What if..." can be a dangerous game. Generally, my rule for (Obsessive/Compulsive) analysis of the books (past/present/future) is not 'is it possible', but 'is it probable'. If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is not actually about Occlumency or Legilimency, that was merely an example; what you are saying is, let's start by assuming that Voldemort finds out about 12 Grimauld Place, and speculate about what he would do with that knowledge? Would he attack? ...full force direct attack? ...other? Would he try and enter by stealth? In a way, that might be a fair question. Although, it's difficult to predict how it could happen, it seems reasonable that at some point Voldemort will find out about 12 Grimauld Place. I think the only way he could actually get in, is to some how directly, indirectly, or magically coerce someone into betraying the Order and leading Voldemort's followers into the Order's Headquarters. I'm thinking in a manner similar to a muggle getting into The Leaky Cauldron. Muggles can't see it and therefore can't find it, but a magical person could lead them in. That's how Hermione's parents get into Diagon Alley; Hermione has to lead them into a place they can't see. 12 Grimauld Place is the same way, except now, not even magical folks can see it. And, just like The Leaky Cauldron and Diagon Alley, 12 Grimauld Place takes up no physical space in the real world. So, being lead in by a betrayer is the only way that I could see Voldemort or his followers getting into Grimauld Place. Now the big question is, who is the betrayer? Answer: don't know, but definitely NOT Percy. Just a thought. Steve From AntaresCheryl at aol.com Mon Jun 21 06:42:46 2004 From: AntaresCheryl at aol.com (AntaresCheryl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:42:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book?? Message-ID: <15a.380226a7.2e07dd66@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102227 I still think that Sirius "had" to die in order to open up communication between the people "beyond the veil" and the living wizarding world. Sirius passed through the veil accidently. He will be anxious to communicate with and keep an eye on Harry. Harry tried to contact him with the mirror, but it didn't work because Sirius didn't have the mirror on him when he passed through the veil. JK Rowling said that some of the happenings in books 6 and 7 were foreshadowed in the POA movie, and I had the impression that it was not intentional, but coincidental. Harry saw Sirius in the crystal ball in the POA and I'm thinking that is going to be one of the plot points in the next book. JK has planned for Harry and Sirius to be able to contact each other in a similiar fashion. Cheryl H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From townsend3 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 06:58:30 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:58:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment ....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102228 "kalmeeeh" wrote: > > But Katie has to be in the same year as Fred and George. When Harry > Potter joined the Quiditch team, he was in his first year, and the > first 1st year to join a house team in a century. > > We know that Katie was already on the team before Harry joined, and > no one else was signed on with Harry in his first year. Since Katie > joined a year a before Harry and she couldn't have been a first year > when she did, she must be in her third year when Harry joins the team. > > -Luke Why can't Katie have been a second year when Harry was a first year? She could have joined the team just a week or so before Harry was chosen by McGonagall. She could have gone through the regular try-out process (which had failed to yield a decent seeker for them), and it just wasn't mentioned because Harry wasn't thinking about Quidditch until he was on the team himself. At any rate, since JKR never specified what year Katie was, it's not too much to accept that Katie is only a year ahead of the trio. (No more "Flints.") Tara From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 08:49:31 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:49:31 -0000 Subject: What if Sirius Hadn't Escaped in POA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: >>Suppose Sirius, after having seen the Daily Prophet with Peter on it, kept his need for revenge in check and somehow got Fudge to allow DD to visit him (or get word to him that Sirius needed to tell him something). DD goes to Sirius, Sirius tells him that Pettigrew is alive and is Ron's rat, DD calls Ron to his office, requesting (as nonchalantly as possible) that he bring his pet, DD forces Pettigrew to reveal himself and then uses his Leglimens(sorry if I'm not spelling that right) skills to determine that Pettigrew did indeed betray the Potters and Sirius is innocent.<< HunterGreen: I think the answer lies more in the personality of Sirius than anything else. He does quite a number of things that don't really make sense, unless you remember two things, one being that his own innocence is not his motivation, and two being that he wants to deal out revenge on his own (simply having Peter arrested is not good enough). Sirius is also very implusive and lets his emotions make his decisions for him (IMO). Obviously, it would have made a lot more sense if after he realized that Peter was the traitor that he hung back and sent an owl to Dumbledore immediately (or just gone to the Dursleys--since he knew that's where Dumbledore was going to be--and talked to him personally). But he doesn't. His reaction is "I'm going to get that Peter!", without thinking of the fact that it apppears that its HIM that sold out the Potters. Later on, when he escapes from Azkaban, if he managed to sneak into Hogwarts and break into the Gryffindor commmon room, certainly he could have found a way to send a letter to Dumbledore. But he doesn't. At that point, I think he wasn't thinking beyond killing Peter, his life after revenge doesn't seem to occur to him until after they decide not to kill him (perhaps Azkaban did leave him a little 'not with it'). Its not as extreme, but he acts the same way in GoF when he rushes back to the Hogwarts area to look after Harry, this was a more sensical choice (since he had managed to elude capture while living nearly a year in that area), but altogether not the best one for his own safety. This is the only way I've managed to think about it, otherwise it does seem like a rather huge plothole. From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 09:07:40 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:07:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: <20040621045844.65791.qmail@web51906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102230 Petra wrote: >>[1] Hagrid's two sets of visitors have one thing in common: both the Trio and Umbridge are there to investigate Hagrid's long absence.<< HunterGreen: Not your question exactly, but its rather striking how stupid the trio were being by not realizing how obvious their footprints in the snow were. I know the three of them were depressed (or Ron & Harry at least), but was it necessary to go see Hagrid that second? >>[2] Given what we know of the history between the giants and humans (namely the WW), what might be reasons on the giants' part for and against siding with Dumbledore? What are the reasons for and against siding with Voldemort and his DEs?<< I think both sides are giving the giants too much credit. They don't sound bright enough to be able to know either way. The goblins I understand, they have an agenda, they have reasons to go either way, and they have normal intelligence. Combined with the fact that the giants are so far away, I don't see why either side is bothering. >>[4] With the revelation of his mother's death in this chapter, Hagrid is now confirmed to be another example of orphans in the HP books. Compare and contrast Hagrid with Harry, Tom Riddle/LV, Neville, etc.<< Excluding Neville (who isn't an orphan, just parentless), the three orphans are all half-bloods. AND the wizard parent (or the pureblood wizard in Harry's case) was the first to die in all three. That's a rather interesting parallel. From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 10:26:02 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:26:02 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D411FC.17800.818627@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102231 Shaun Hately wrote: >>The point is that *within a particular school*, these practices are often *not* seen as abusive. It doesn't matter much if they would be in the outside world - that's not relevant to considering the attitudes within the school. Snide comments from a teacher, cruel comments from a teacher *are not* considered to be abuse - but rather may be seen as a normal part of school life. [snip] *If* all the teachers were like Snape, things might actually be a bit different - but it's the fact that he is one among many that means he doesn't have a huge impact on the culture of the entire school. They have lots of teachers who are 'odd' in some way. So the fact that these children do not rebel against what is happening isn't a sign that they are not independent - it's simply a sign that what they are experiencing isn't, in their view, serious enough to warrant rebellion.<< HunterGreen (jumping into the thread a little late): And that's just it, its accepted: Snape's sort of cruel sometimes, that's just the sort of person he is. I know every person who's gone through school (unless its an oddball private[US]/public[UK] school) has had at least one teacher who was a complete jerk. I went to a US public school in a liberal area, and there were still times when I heard teachers make 'not so nice' comments. (yes, that's not the same thing, but considering my background versus the school system in the WW its at about the same severity). I wasn't a thick-skinned person (especially in my teen years), but it never bothered me, because you consider the source. If someone known to be cruel says something cruel, then it doesn't have a lot of meaning, then does it? Its like how Harry feels in PoA after Lupin talks to him about sneaking to Hogsmeade. Snape might have been crueler, but Harry himself (in the narrative) says that Lupin made him feel far worse than anything Snape said. I just don't buy that Harry is being "abused" by Snape, he doesn't show any signs of it, it doesn't bother him. Neville on the other hand, you could make a case for, but that's because Neville is already weak and unsure of himself to start with. IMO, what his grandmother is doing to him is far worse than anything he has to endure from Snape. Snape may be making it worse, but in those terms, Neville is practically abused by McGonagal, he's certainly timid and scared in her class at times as well (and no one acuses her of being abusive). >>When they felt things had gone too far - the students showed how independent they were. The students at Hogwarts don't rebel against Snape - because what Snape does isn't really worthy of it. *But* they do rebel against Umbridge - because she crosses the line. She *does* violate the cultural beliefs of the school. And that is what creates a reaction.<< And I think that's the point Del was trying to make earlier in this thread. What Snape is doing is cruel, but you'd never see him force a student to cut open their own hand for six hours, nor would he ever consider using an unforgivable curse against a student. What Umbridge is doing reveals how Snape's 'horrors' are little more than "kid- stuff". He's unfair, and I think that's what readers respond to more than anything else. The unfairness is not abusive(its not nice, but its not going to give anyone nightmares either), but that's what calls all this attention to Snape. In the context of the Harry Potter world, what Snape is doing is not abusive (in order for his actions to be 'abusive', there have to be people who are abused... and despite all his cruelty, Harry/Ron/Hermione seem quite fine), even if we as outsiders don't understand it, doesn't make it abuse. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 21 11:17:28 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:17:28 +0100 Subject: Neville again Message-ID: <94C77804-C374-11D8-B16C-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102232 Neville seems to be one of those 'almost' figures in HP. Posters regularly express sympathy for his family circumstances and point with approval to his ever-growing confidence as an individual. He's *almost* a central figure. He's *almost* as close to Harry as Ron and Hermione. He's *almost* a decent wizard. We've *almost* reached definitive conclusions as to his role. Scattered throughout the series there have been clues (or red herrings) that cause one to pause, only to say - "No, can't be that significant, it's just backstory/detail or whatever," and move on. DD's admission that Neville was a possible candidate as a Voldy!Target, Madam Promfrey's comment that thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, the fact that Neville has been trying to do quality spells with a wand that was not his own. We're told that Neville was the despair of his family who feared that he might not be magical at all. A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he was eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. Very interesting. And to add fuel to the fire being fanned by those who consider that any representation of 'child abuse' is not amusing and must be condemned outright - isn't it time you had a go at Uncle Algy? Remembering of course, that if he hadn't persisted in throwing Neville off piers, dropping him out of windows and whatever, Neville would probably not have got to Hogwarts. Shame on me, I laughed my socks off at the image of Neville bouncing down the path on his head, but obviously JKR was making a serious point and humour was the last thing she intended. For sure. There are those that have suggested ESE!Algy and ESE!Gran, usually in an attempt to explain Nevilles shyness, near Squibness and the continuing hospitalisation of his parents. Theories of memory manipulation abound. You might be surprised to hear that just this once that arch consiracy theorist Kneasy does not agree. So he's probably wrong this time. Sod's Law. But there's nothing wrong with Neville's memory - in GoF he answers Crouch!Moody's question about the Cruciatus and believes that the sounds coming from the Egg is someone screaming while under the curse. He's not all that shy either; he gets a partner for the Yule Ball without all the fuss and palaver that Harry and Ron go through. And in OoP he's well aware that Bella was one of those responsible for his parent's condition. No, it's only been with the magical stuff that Neville has had difficulties. Herbology, he's OK. But is Herbology magic? No spells, no potions, no wand waving. And Neville does well. The rest seems to be a bit of a struggle. I sometimes wonder if JKR might cheat a bit on her definitions (of what is magical or not) and Neville might be the one who 'becomes magical' later in life than usual. Whatever. I also have a soft spot for a theory I posted last summer before OoP was published. It's based on a combination of JKR's love of names and factual English history. As a brief surmise, there were two great noble families that were almost petty kings in their own right. Between them they guarded the northern border against marauding Scots. One family supported the established government for centuries and produced some of the most significant characters in English history - the Nevilles. The other family were their traditional enemies and produced generation after generation of traitors and troublemakers - their name? Percy. Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? Neville vs Percy. Could be fun. Kneasy From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 12:33:44 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville again In-Reply-To: <94C77804-C374-11D8-B16C-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <20040621123344.66269.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102233 Barry Arrowsmith wrote: As a brief surmise, there were two great noble families that were almost petty kings in their own right. Between them they guarded the northern border against marauding Scots. One family supported the established government for centuries and produced some of the most significant characters in English history - the Nevilles. The other family were their traditional enemies and produced generation after generation of traitors and troublemakers - their name? Percy. Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? Neville vs Percy. Could be fun. Kneasy This is a very interesting theory. It would feed into Percy wanting power and him being "seduced" into the DE. This could be done by power (making him think that he is gaining it) or even actually "seducing" him in (Madame Lestrange). I like the later for this theory because that would give Neville a personal reason to go after Percy, personally. Or, maybe as a DE he goes after Gran?? How would that play on the Neville/Ron relationship? Could Ron see the whole thing objectively or would he still back his brother? Could this in turn play on the Ron/Harry relationship? moonmyyst (who is going to have to think about this one today) (hope all the dads had a great Father's Day yesterday) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 12:36:50 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 05:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621123650.20036.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102234 vmonte wrote: vmonte: Did Lily have any female friends? We know a lot about James's friends but nothing at all about Lily's pals. Did Harry have a Godmother? I suppose we will have to wait and see. vivian - just wondering I don't think any have been mentioned by name so far but I tend to think that there are. I don't have the book in front of me, but in the "Snape Torture" scene, doesn't it have her splashing in the lake with other girls? (Or am I remembering the scene wrong? I am rereading OotP but have not made it to that part yet) moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 12:58:09 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:58:09 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: <20040621123650.20036.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102235 > vmonte wrote: > vmonte: > > Did Lily have any female friends? We know a lot about James's friends but nothing at all about Lily's pals. Did Harry have a Godmother? I suppose we will have to wait and see. > > vivian - just wondering moonmyyst: > I don't think any have been mentioned by name so far but I tend to think that there are. I don't have the book in front of me, but in the "Snape Torture" scene, doesn't it have her splashing in the lake with other girls? (Or am I remembering the scene wrong? I am rereading OotP but have not made it to that part yet) Jen: There's been speculation that Alice Longbottom was Lily's friend, possibly even Harry's Godmother, but I don't think there's any canon for that. Well, except they were around the same age and both had infant sons, and surely both knew something about the Prophecy (or at least that their sons were in danger)...OK, that's a little canon for at least knowing each other! I'm wondering if Emmeline Vance or Hestia Jones, of the Advance Guard, were her friends. Lupin said quite a few people volunteered to accompany Harry back to Headquarters--maybe these two women had never seen Harry and that's why they volunteered. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 13:04:55 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:04:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > I think I remember a JKR quote that everyone was in love with the > wrong person during GoF. I took that to mean, Ron with Hermione, > Harry with Cho, and Hermione with Krum. > GEO: Yes, but you seem to have forgotten that Ron fell for Hermione during/after the Yule Ball. > Im not so sure any pair of the trio will be together in the end. > Possibly briefly in book 6. Which is another reason for Harry to > retreat and pull away from everyone before saving the day in book 7. GEO: I don't think Harry has the power to defeat Voldemort. Either way it seems obvious to me that he's not going into the final battle alone. From v-tregan at microsoft.com Mon Jun 21 13:25:22 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan (Intl Vendor)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:25:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? Message-ID: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15BDD544@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102237 Hi All, Vivian said: >>> Did Lily have any female friends? We know a lot about James's friends but nothing at all about Lily's pals. Did Harry have a Godmother? I suppose we will have to wait and see. <<< Moonmyyst said: >>> I don't think any have been mentioned by name so far but I tend to think that there are. I don't have the book in front of me, but in the "Snape Torture" scene, doesn't it have her splashing in the lake with other girls? <<< Now me (Dumbledad): Here are the relevant bits from OotP that Moonmyst referred too: >>> The sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the lake, on the bank of which the group of laughing girls who had just left the Great Hall were sitting, with their shoes and socks off, cooling their feet in the water. [snip] 'Leave him ALONE!' James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to his hair. It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped eyes - Harry's eyes. <<< The impression I get is that Lily was a well balanced, kind, attractive girl who knew the difference between right and wrong - even applied to children that nobody liked. It's very hard to imagine that she wouldn't be very popular. I love Jen's suggestions as to who those friends were and what became of them. Cheers, Dumbledad. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 13:31:51 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:31:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: <20040621045844.65791.qmail@web51906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102238 Petra: > [2] Given what we know of the history > between the giants and humans (namely the > WW), what might be reasons on the giants' > part for and against siding with Dumbledore? > What are the reasons for and against siding > with Voldemort and his DEs? Jen: Seems like the giants wouldn't want to side with either one. No one was interested in them, leaving them to kill each other in the mountains, until Voldemort returned. I'd be surprised to see them trust anyone. Petra: > [3] Going forward, what can either side do > to win over the giants' support? > Dumbledore's trust in two half-giants may > appeal to the giants but given their dire > straits, what could Voldemort offer them > that may provide relief from their currently > extremely unstable living situation? What > can Dumbledore do? Jen: I've tried to understand this part of the plot, and received a "T" ;). If each side is amassing an army, then I'd much rather have the Dementors than the Giants. Sure they seem more impervious to magic, if Hagrid is our barometer, but could you ever really trust them? For one thing, on any given day they could decide to throw your off as the leader and reinstate one of their own. Petra: > [5] Has a question arisen from this chapter > for you? Pose it please! :) Jen: Yes. Why, JKR Why?!? I can't read OOTP without skipping over this chapter. I guess the giants are supposed to be another example of an oppressd group, but that's covered by the House Elves, Werewolfs, Goblins, Centaurs, etc. I just can't see the point. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jun 21 13:42:01 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:42:01 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: <20040620145932.63711.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102239 > Rebeka wrote: > You know, I always thought that was because Voldemort > wanted Harry in first place. Then, the prophecy came > along, and ruined all my theories. I hated this > prophecy thing, it's like everything you cannot really > explain, let's create a prophecy for it! I truly hope > that there's more than meets the eye here. Otherwise, > I'll be greatly disappointed. :( boyd: I agree. But it *does* appear that there's something more going on. Otherwise, why haven't we heard more about how this protection from Lilly works? Or that of her family? And why has JKR hidden all details about Harry's parents from us? And we never heard the prophecy firsthand, nor do we know whether there was some other reason why Harry was to be able to kill LV. Then there's the whole DD thing, and why Petunia knows about Dementors, and why LV wants to kill Harry personally, and why Tom became LV and why why why why.... My bet is that she'll leave us guessing 'til the end. Aaargh! Particulars Probably Lurking Everywhere. Something Is Definitely Afoot, Rowling! (A.P.P.L.E. S.I.D.A.R.) From bd-bear at verizon.net Mon Jun 21 13:51:06 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:51:06 -0400 Subject: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102240 I've been thinking about the way things are portrayed in HP and would like to share what I've been thinking. I don't have any hard and fast theories, just some thoughts, so please bear with me. At first glance, the prejudice that is shown by some of the Slytherins and pure-bloods towards Muggles and Mudbloods seems a clear metaphor for racism. Certainly in the United States there has been a very similar type of discrimination and bias against blacks for centuries. Or it may be that a better analogy would be Hitler's view of Jews and his desire to "purify" what he thought was the superior race. But then I think more about this and I think that at least in the WW, they started out with good reason to think as they do of Muggles. We've been told about the persecution of witches and the need for the WW to protect themselves and hide themselves. And the Dursleys are a very good example of the types of Muggles that witches and wizards wouldn't want to know about them, as the Dursleys think anything magical is sick, wizards and witches are sick, it's unnatural, etc. I can easily see the Dursleys involved in a lynch party, basing their opinions, as they do, on something they don't understand at all but rather fear. So in one sense, the prejudice that developed may have started out from a rational fear of persecution. While Blacks and Jews certainly have reason to be cautious because of each groups history of persecution, I don't think the same type of large factions have developed (similar to the DEs/Slytherins-we-know) who have such a widespread bias against their former oppressors (not that there aren't smaller groups of these people, I'm just comparing them with the whole pure-blood mindset in WW), nor do I think they have ever grown to a large enough group overall to be a threat to non-Jews or non-Blacks the way the DEs/Slytherins-we-know have targeted Muggles and Mudbloods. So in thinking all this, I was wondering if JKR actually did have some time of modern equivalent in mind for the pure-bloods and the Muggles. . .perhaps I don't know my history well enough to spot it. I was also thinking, and I'm not sure this is related to racism, if it is still as necessary for the WW to hide itself. Since the WW branched out and intermingled with Muggles, more non-magic folk should know about witchcraft and wizardry. Although many Muggles are still kept in the dark, there are the few here and there who know about the WW and approve. Take Lily's parents. Petunia mentioned they were proud when she got her letter (making me actually wonder if there is more going on there- -did they actually know magic existed beforehand, and if so, was there actually a witch or wizard in their family before Lily?). And Hermione's parents certainly seem supportive of her. It's similar to how interracial couples have biracial children who are then (hopefully) more tolerant of both races because they are part of both. And people in their families who love and support them should also be more open-minded just for having them in their lives. (This is certainly my hope as my husband is black and I am white and I am hoping the increase in interracial couples will over time create a greater awareness that we are all just people, no matter the color of our skin. . . but I digress.) So shouldn't there be Muggle families who have a witch or wizard in the family and so they lose whatever prejudice or fears they have had? Shouldn't the knowledge about the WW be spreading, however slowly, through the Muggle world, since they are interbreeding? Anyway, those are my thoughts on the topic. As I said, I have no hard and fast theories and have only just been thinking about this for a little while. Feel free to agree or disagree or pull apart my ideas, but please, be kind. :^) Barbara bd-bear From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 13:53:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:53:57 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102241 Jen: There's been speculation that Alice Longbottom was Lily's friend, possibly even Harry's Godmother, but I don't think there's any canon for that. Well, except they were around the same age and both had infant sons, and surely both knew something about the Prophecy (or at least that their sons were in danger)...OK, that's a little canon for at least knowing each other! I'm wondering if Emmeline Vance or Hestia Jones, of the Advance Guard, were her friends. Lupin said quite a few people volunteered to accompany Harry back to Headquarters--maybe these two women had never seen Harry and that's why they volunteered. vmonte responds: Great comments Jen. I think I remember someone once speculating that Lily may have worked at the DoM. I wonder if they are right? I also wonder if maybe Luna's mom also worked there. If so, could they have known each other? I know this is probably a coincidence, but both of these women died in front of their children, right? Both were good at charms (did I just make that up)? Did they both experiment with old magic they learned while at work? I can'y wait to find out the facts about Luna's mom as well. vivian From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 14:02:18 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:02:18 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: <94C77804-C374-11D8-B16C-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102242 Kneasy: > DD's admission that Neville was a possible candidate as a Voldy! Target, Madam > Promfrey's comment that thoughts could leave deeper scarring than > almost anything else, the fact that Neville has been trying to do > quality spells with a wand that was not his own. Jen: What about Madam Pomfrey's comment--do you mean that Neville remembers the night his parents were Crucio'd or something else? About all the clues. The only theory that makes sense to me is that Gran has done everything in her power to keep Neville safe, including discouraging magic at a young age, giving Neville a wand she knew wouldn't work for him, visiting his parents all the time to show what can happen if you're a powerful witch/wizard. I don't mean that so harshly, she is obviously proud of her son and wants Neville to be proud of them and know them in a limited way. It's just that, underneath it all, is Gran's fear for Neville. If Gran knows anything about the Prophecy through Alice & Frank, it's that Neville may be targeted. And she knows DE's don't always ask questions first, so she wants to make sure Neville is as cowering, non-magical, and non-threatening as possible. I don't think she's going to get her wish! Kneasy: > A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he was > eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. Jen: hm, never noticed that. What does *that* mean? Unless he's not Frank's son. We know he looks like Alice, so she's definitely the mom. Don't know what to make of this. Kneasy: > Remembering of course, that if he hadn't persisted in throwing Neville off piers, > dropping him out of windows and whatever, Neville would probably not > have got > to Hogwarts. Shame on me, I laughed my socks off at the image of > Neville bouncing down the path on his head, but obviously JKR was > making a serious point and humour was the last thing she intended. > For sure. Jen: Haha Kneasy--sacasm will get you nothing around here except a fight, and I *know* you don't want a fight.... I thought this was a hilariously funny incident and a good point to show how different the magical world is from RL. The rules just aren't the same. Kneasy: > I also have a soft spot for a theory I posted last summer before OoP > was published. It's based on a combination of JKR's love of names and > factual English history. > > As a brief surmise, there were two great noble families that were > almost petty kings in their own right. Between them they guarded the > northern border against marauding Scots. One family supported the > established government for centuries and produced some of the most > significant characters in English history - the Nevilles. The other > family were their traditional enemies and produced generation after > generation of traitors and troublemakers - their name? Percy. > > Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? > Neville vs Percy. > Could be fun. Jen: Neville vs. Percy? I don't know how bangy that would be. I'd like to see Neville take on someone a little bigger. He's already the only one left standing with Harry in the DOM, and now he'll have a new wand. Percy seems like a small-fry now. Do you have the post # of the theory from last summer? I might be convinved by some blood- thirsty analysis. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 21 14:11:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:11:29 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - Lily and why Harry ends up having to ... In-Reply-To: <20040620145932.63711.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes wrote: > > > Rebeka: > You know, I always thought that was because Voldemort > wanted Harry in first place. Then, the prophecy came > along, and ruined all my theories. I hated this > prophecy thing, it's like everything you cannot really > explain, let's create a prophecy for it! I truly hope > that there's more than meets the eye here. Otherwise, > I'll be greatly disappointed. :( > Then ignore the prophecy. It's not a fashionable thing to do, but it is possible to cobble together an argument that the prophecy refers not to future but instead to the past and is therefore largely irrelevant. The events the prophecy refer to may have already happened. The key word for taking this position is 'vanquish.' Harry (or whoever) has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. He already has. DD says so - OoP chap 37 - while giving the obligatory end of book exposition : "Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters..." Now I admit that to do this to us JKR would have to be sneaky, devious and totally unscrupulous in drawing red herrings across our path. Guess what? She is. Getting us to concentrate on some tantalising tid-bit that looks like a clue but is actually history while she's busy stacking the deck elsewhere would be something she'd enjoy doing, I think. Get your own back. Think sneaky too. Kneasy From steve at hp-lexicon.org Mon Jun 21 14:14:52 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:14:52 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: <40D702F3.791.15BFC6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > I'm not familiar with Scotland - but I looked up Dufftown, and it > looks kind of plausible for Hogwarts to be in that vicinity to me. I seem to remember something in a news article about Rowling buying her home in Scotland that she chose an area near where Hogwarts would really be located. That may have been simply meant "Scotland," but as I recall it was more specific than that. I can't find the article, however. I know that her home is near Aberfeldy, so maybe you can use that. I don't have my atlas handy and the cat is sitting on my lap so I'm not going to go get it, but if that's also near Dufftown, you may be onto something... Steve Designated Cat Cradle From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 14:18:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:18:13 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: <40D702F3.791.15BFC6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Shaun: > And in the movie version of PoA, it is mentioned that Sirius Black > has been seen near (I think) Dufftown, and that is quite near > Hogwarts. This is more information than is given in the book > itself. > > I'm not familiar with Scotland - but I looked up Dufftown, and it > looks kind of plausible for Hogwarts to be in that vicinity to me. > I'm just wondering if people who know the geography better can come > up with any reasons Hogwarts couldn't be in that area. > > Any location I choose is going to be somewhat arbitrary, of course > - but I have to choose somewhere, so I'm looking for anything > potentially identifying. Geoff: IIRC, Shaun, you participated in a long thread several months ago about the location of Hogwarts when the consensus of opinion was that it had to be in the remoter part of the Highlands. There is perhaps a touch of movie contamination here because if you extrapolate the flight information of the Ford Anglia from Norfolk over Peebles and beyond you are heading into the West Highlands or further north, which is emphasised a bit by the use of the Glenfinnan Viaduct in the films. That apart, Dufftown is well to the east of the Grampians and towards lower ground. Although we are told that Hogwarts is shielded from Muggle eyes, this is still close to larger areas of population being between Inverness and Aberdeen and with a number of reasonably large towns - Elgin, Grantown-on-Spey and the skiing area of Aviemore - not far distant and, in relative terms for Scotland, there is a reasonable network of roads whereas in our previous discussions towards the beginning of last November (which are in the 83900 region) we looked at much remoter situations such as the Knoydart Peninsula or Rannoch Moor. Having only seen POA once so far, I missed the comment about Dufftown but my gut feeling would be that the discussions we had way back seemed more accurate. From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 14:22:20 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:22:20 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > At first glance, the prejudice that is shown by some of the Slytherins and pure-bloods towards Muggles and Mudbloods seems a clear metaphor for racism. > Certainly in the United States there has been a very similar type of > discrimination and bias against blacks for centuries. Or it may be that a better analogy would be Hitler's view of Jews and his desire to "purify" what he thought was the superior race. I think that's EXACTLY what the Muggles/Mudbloods in the books mean, but I think you have a "but" coming, so I will continue... :) > But then I think more about this and I think that at least in the WW, they started out with good reason to think as they do of Muggles. We've been told about the persecution of witches and the need for the WW to protect themselves and hide themselves. And the Dursleys are a very good example of the types of Muggles that witches and wizards wouldn't want to know about them, as the Dursleys think anything magical is sick, wizards and witches are sick, it's unnatural, etc. I can easily see the Dursleys involved in a lynch party, basing their opinions, as they do, on something they don't understand at all but >rather fear. I will grant that around the founding of Hogwarts, around 1000, the idea of teaching muggle-borns was probably pretty revolutionary. I believe Godric Gryffindor was on the right side of history and Salazar Slytherin the wrong side, but I also can understand why Salazar felt the way he did. (Still don't know about that basilisk, though, Sal. A tad much, don't you think?) But it's 1,000 years later. Anyway, it is true that certain types of Muggles would have real problems if they knew wizards and witches were there. >So in one sense, the prejudice that developed may have started out from a rational fear of persecution. A rational fear of discovery is fine. Taking precautions when dealing with Muggle parents of wizards is definitely reasonable. Prejudice, however, is irrational. I'd go so far as to call it an irrational hatred. There seem to be a lot more Muggle families like the Grangers and the Creeveys than there are the Dursleys. The problem is, the Slytherins don't espouse keeping out muggle borns because of danger. Men like Lucius would never admit such fear and are probably too arrogant to feel it. They espouse it because they see it as unpure. As not being from a proper wizarding family. Draco's first question to Harry is "What's your surname?" And the actions in the campground in GoF are certainly not based out of fear of discovery. The prejudice is still there. And it's not just from the Slytherins. Fudge's ministry has a glass ceiling for Muggle-lovers like Arthur. >While Blacks and Jews certainly have reason to be cautious because of each groups history of persecution, I don't think the same type of large factions have developed (similar to the DEs/Slytherins-we- know) who have such a widespread bias against their former oppressors (not that there aren't smaller groups of these people, I'm just comparing them with the whole pure-blood mindset in WW), nor do I think they have ever grown to a large enough group overall to be a threat to non-Jews or non-Blacks the way the DEs/Slytherins-we-know > have targeted Muggles and Mudbloods. I don't think you can quite call Muggles "oppressors" of Wizards. That might be because they haven't gotten the chance, but we know that, in JKR's world, witch burning was completely pointless. We know that Hogwarts is protected through spells. The point is, how much danger is in the modern world, since the Ministry of Magic has had centuries to really get the "hide from the Muggles" (or "Masquerade," to steal from White Wolf's Vampire game) in place. So in thinking all this, I was > wondering if JKR actually did have some time of modern equivalent in mind for the pure-bloods and the Muggles. . .perhaps I don't know my history well enough to spot it. Do I think it's a direct parallel for Hitler and the Jews and, in general, anti-semitism? Perhaps not perfectly, but I think the clues are there. I think the pureblood doctrine is frighteningly similar to "the Master Race." I think Draco and Lucius and Narcissa are an Aryan wet dream. I think the "fear of persecution" is similar to what a lot of anti-Semitism is based on, the stereotype of the Jewish moneylender. Hitler gave the Germans someone to blame for their economy. The Jews. The "Muggles will come and get us if we let too many know about Hogwarts" routine is pretty similar to that, in my opinion. Give people someone to blame for their troubles and get out of the way. That's how you create hatred. > I was also thinking, and I'm not sure this is related to racism, if it is> still as necessary for the WW to hide itself. Since the WW branched out and> intermingled with Muggles, more non-magic folk should know about witchcraft> and wizardry. Although many Muggles are still kept in the dark, there are> the few here and there who know about the WW and approve. Take Lily's> parents. Petunia mentioned they were proud when she got her letter (making> me actually wonder if there is more going on there- -did they actually know> magic existed beforehand, and if so, was there actually a witch or wizard in> their family before Lily?). And Hermione's parents certainly seem supportive> of her. It's similar to how interracial couples have biracial children who> are then (hopefully) more tolerant of both races because they are part of both. And people in their families who love and support them should also be> more open-minded just for having them in their lives. (This is certainly my> hope as my husband is black and I am white and I am hoping the increase in> interracial couples will over time create a greater awareness that we are> all just people, no matter the color of our skin. . . but I digress.) So> shouldn't there be Muggle families who have a witch or wizard in the family and so they lose whatever prejudice or fears they have had? Shouldn't the> knowledge about the WW be spreading, however slowly, through the Muggle world, since they are interbreeding? > I kind of answered this earlier, with the question about how necessary it is to protect oneself. I'm sure precautions are taken. A question I've always wondered is. What if a Muggle family refuses to allow their child to go to Hogwarts? Maybe they are like the Dursleys, or maybe the father had 16 generations of his family go to Eton and just refuses to allow his son to go anywhere else? What do McGonagall and D-Dore do then? It would seem parents still have the right to keep their children from there, much the same way parents of a child who is 12 and scores 1600 on the SAT (a perfect score for a college aptitude test, for our international friends) don't HAVE to send that kid to college right away. Darrin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 14:22:27 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:22:27 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: <94C77804-C374-11D8-B16C-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > As a brief surmise, there were two great noble families that were > almost petty kings in their own right. Between them they guarded the northern border against marauding Scots. One family supported the > established government for centuries and produced some of the most > significant characters in English history - the Nevilles. The other > family were their traditional enemies and produced generation after generation of traitors and troublemakers - their name? Percy. > > Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? > Neville vs Percy. > Could be fun. > > Kneasy Carolyn: More support for my much-ridiculed Vauxhall Rd theory. Essentially, this argues that high-ranking Muggle aristocratic families have been colluding with their magical cousins down the ages to stay on top in the RW and the WW. Tom Riddle represented the best hopes of both muggle and wizard branches of the ancient Slytherin family in the 1920s/30s to resist the destruction of the European landed gentry in the lead up to the world wars. Although their boy was the result of an unintended liaison between the last descendent of Slytherin and the local young squire who swept her off her feet at the village fete, nevertheless kingdoms have been successfully disputed by pretenders with poorer claims. Alas, they managed him badly, and instead of being their secret weapon to control the world, he decided to branch out on his own account. The Malfoys and the Blacks, having a similarly inter-twined aristocratic muggle/wizard backgrounds, have been in a quandry ever since on what to do, hence their ambivalent stance towards Voldy. Fudge has been forced (or willingly agreed) to be their go-between with aristocratic contacts in the UK House of Lords. Now you suggest that the Longbottoms and Weasleys are engaged in a similarly complicated dispute, going back centuries, in which muggles and wizards have played devious games supporting the ruling elite in either world. I like it..although JKR has said there is going to be no rapprochement between the two worlds, she's already muddied the waters with the unravelling of the Dursley family history. This could be more of the same. Typical ambiguity. Carolyn Ignoring groans From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 14:23:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:23:00 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Scotland - but I looked up Dufftown, and it > > looks kind of plausible for Hogwarts to be in that vicinity to me. > Steve: > I know that her home is near Aberfeldy, so maybe > you can use that. I don't have my atlas handy and the cat is sitting > on my lap so I'm not going to go get it, but if that's also near > Dufftown, you may be onto something... Geoff: Amazing that we are posting replies about five minutes apart on this topic. Re Aberfeldy, it isn't near Dufftown. It's a fair bit further south, about 20 miles NW of Perth and on the southern fringes of the Grampians. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 14:31:17 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:31:17 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: <94C77804-C374-11D8-B16C-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: snip > And to add fuel to the fire being fanned by those who consider that any > representation of 'child abuse' is not amusing and must be condemned > outright - isn't it time you had a go at Uncle Algy? Remembering of > course, that if he hadn't persisted in throwing Neville off piers, > dropping him out of windows and whatever, Neville would probably not > have got > to Hogwarts. Meri now: According to JKR, when a child with magical potential is born a quill in Hogwarts detects that kid's birth and puts his or her name down for admission (which explains Hagrid's SS comment that Harry's name had been down since he was born). So even if Neville had never been bounced into the garden by meringue happy Uncle Algie he still would surely have gotten into Hogwarts because, as we saw in Order, Neville's got some kicking mad wizarding skillz. And as to what Algie did to him being child abuse, I have a pair of older male cousins who used to (and still do to some extent) find it amusing to throw me and my sibs into their swimming pool fully clothed, hang us by our ankles over the deep end, sit on us (v. painful) and poke our arms with pliers. So, maybe that's just how uncle Algie shows his love. Meri - cretainly none the worse for wear after her cousins spent her youth throwing her in the pool, and glad she took them with her a few times! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 21 14:45:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:45:25 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: What about Madam Pomfrey's comment--do you mean that Neville > remembers the night his parents were Crucio'd or something else? > Kneasy: How much he remembers is open to question, but I think it's a fair assumption that he remembers more than Harry does about Godric's Hollow. For one thing, it lasted much longer (torture takes time) and so is likely to have made a memorable impact. Jen: > About all the clues. The only theory that makes sense to me is that > Gran has done everything in her power to keep Neville safe, > including discouraging magic at a young age, giving Neville a wand > she knew wouldn't work for him, visiting his parents all the time to > show what can happen if you're a powerful witch/wizard. I don't mean > that so harshly, she is obviously proud of her son and wants Neville > to be proud of them and know them in a limited way. It's just that, > underneath it all, is Gran's fear for Neville. > > If Gran knows anything about the Prophecy through Alice & Frank, > it's that Neville may be targeted. And she knows DE's don't always > ask questions first, so she wants to make sure Neville is as > cowering, non-magical, and non-threatening as possible. Kneasy: Quite possible. At the Ministry Bella makes a comment to the effect that Nevilles Gran should be used to losing members of her family. (How many in total, I wonder?) So reducing Neville to near invisibility on the DE radar could be a deliberate ploy on Gran's part. > > Kneasy: > > A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he > > was eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. > > Jen: hm, never noticed that. What does *that* mean? Unless he's not > Frank's son. We know he looks like Alice, so she's definitely the > mom. Don't know what to make of this. > Kneasy: Hmm. Yes. I feel the same way. A flint? Hope not. It's these unconsidered trifles that give us a chance to get really imaginative when we finally do take notice of them. I'll brood until I can come up with some fantastical theory, hopefully in the true spirit of the FEATHERBOA fan club. > > Jen: Haha Kneasy--sacasm will get you nothing around here except a > fight, and I *know* you don't want a fight.... > > I thought this was a hilariously funny incident and a good point to > show how different the magical world is from RL. The rules just > aren't the same. > > Kneasy: > > I also have a soft spot for a theory I posted last summer before > > OoP was published. It's based on a combination of JKR's love of > > names and factual English history. > > snip>> > > Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? > > Neville vs Percy. > > Could be fun. > > Jen: Neville vs. Percy? I don't know how bangy that would be. I'd > like to see Neville take on someone a little bigger. He's already > the only one left standing with Harry in the DOM, and now he'll have > a new wand. Percy seems like a small-fry now. Do you have the post # > of the theory from last summer? I might be convinved by some blood- > thirsty analysis. Kneasy: It was post 60583. Dog days. Everyone marking time during the last week before OoP came out. Lots of theories - some just displacement activity so that we didn't climb the walls in frustration. But I quite liked the idea of a link between Percy and Neville. It can be made as bangy as you like. Neville, the future hero, hidden from his parents enemies, suddenly comes into his own, etc. etc. And anyway Harry might need someone to watch his back, protecting it from traitorous enemies. Especially if there's the expected Weasley cull. Kneasy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 14:51:53 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:51:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Motorcycle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102251 Gina: > The best guess I've heard is that the bike is in the Forbidden > Forest. Cannon support is minimal, but that is where the Ford Anglia > ended up (and we haven't seen it out of there since, and only in > there in CoS), and Hagrid had the bike last and he spends some of his > time in the Forest, and is about the only one who does. > > > > * I still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car and THAT is > the real reason he was under investigation at the ministry - so yes it would > be in the forest. Geof: If that were the case, why did he choose a late 1950s/early 1960s model car? He could easily create a much newer and better model and replace it at three year intervals - even run a firm called WeasleyLease.. :-) Gina here: First I'd like to say only the latter part of that comment is mine. The part about canon was posted by someone else I only said "I still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car...yada...yada" My answer to your question Jeff is that Mr. Weasley is POOR and cannot afford any newer model car. I would say in his Muggle collecting he found that old shell of an Ford and used it. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 14:58:32 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:58:32 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > > anasazi_pr wrote: > > > > This sort of reminds me about JKR's answer to every question > > regarding Harry's future: she always says "If he lives"... Of course, > > I don't believe for a minute that Harry will die . But > > JKR's answer is a deliberate reminder that NOTHING in her books can > > be taken for granted. Maybe that's the source of her ambiguousness > > relating to the shipping subject... maybe she doesn't want H/Hr or > > R/Hr to take their ship for granted until she's ready to reveal what > > it is. > > > > I agree that "nothing can be taken for granted." As I mentioned in my > prior message, Jo plants information among the readers for her own > purposes. I believe she repeats that remark about Harry's possible > death to keep us all a little off balance, just the way she revealed > the upcoming death in OotP. If we could predict with absolute > certainty what would be coming in the next two books, it would take a > lot of the fun out of the thing, so she tries to spread red herrings > among the fandom, whether it's about anyone's particular life > expectancy or romantic future. I definitely think it's a way for her to keep us all off balance, but she also seems to enjoy having all of us scouring her books for information that we apparently missed. Paraphrasing now, but re: Sirius' motorcycle... She says she suspects some fans already have a good idea where it is. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how anyone would know that based on the information we have. I may not be a genius, but I'm no dimwit either. Just the same as the shipping comment. If it were that obvious that it's definitely going to be R/H rather than H/H, there wouldn't be any discussion, now would there? Susan :-) From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jun 21 15:12:42 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:12:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102253 > vivian (vmonte) wrote: > I also think that Molly is going to die in book 6. I think that her > death is also necessary as a catalyst for Ron to take a more active > role in the war. And the children will be allowed to enter the Order > now that she is gone. boyd: Vivian, love this thought. For some time, I've thought a few more parent-figures were in danger from JKR's plot, as Jo needed to make the children more independent and directly involved. However, I had not thought through to the conclusion that Molly's departure would enable them to join the OoP. This leads me to wonder on Hermione's parents. Will Harry and Ron become members of the OoP without Hermione? I can't see her parents letting her join the group all summer long--so will JKR have them endangered to put Hermione in the OoP, as well? The thing that keeps bothering me about Hermione is that we know so little about her back-story. I keep wondering if we're fated to see more of that family. Frankly, we know less of importance about them than the Longbottoms, yet fewer words have been expended on the Grangers. Classic Jo redirection? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 15:14:56 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:14:56 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102254 vmonte: I think I remember someone once speculating that > Lily may have worked at the DoM. I wonder if they are right? I also > wonder if maybe Luna's mom also worked there. If so, could they have > known each other? I know this is probably a coincidence, but both of > these women died in front of their children, right? Both were good > at charms (did I just make that up)? Did they both experiment with > old magic they learned while at work? Jen: I like this idea--add in Hestia Jones or Dorcas Meadows with Alice and Luna's mom, and Lily may have had her own group of friends and allies! That would be a very powerful group from what little we know so far: Lily the charms expert, Alice the Auror, Hestia or Dorcas the transfiguration experts perhaps, and Ms. Lovegood as the mysterious DOM ally? That's a group that could give the Marauders some trouble ;). James and Sirius *did* eye Lily's wand 'warily' in the OOTP Pensieve scene--maybe they had a bad experience, getting on the wrong side of Lily's wand? Hehe. Served them right, no doubt. From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Mon Jun 21 15:08:31 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:08:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts about Racism in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102255 bd-bear wrote: I was also thinking, and I'm not sure this is related to racism, if it is still as necessary for the WW to hide itself. Since the WW branched out and intermingled with Muggles, more non-magic folk should know about witchcraft and wizardry. Although many Muggles are still kept in the dark, there are the few here and there who know about the WW and approve. Take Lily's parents. Petunia mentioned they were proud when she got her letter (making me actually wonder if there is more going on there- -did they actually know magic existed beforehand, and if so, was there actually a witch or wizard in their family before Lily?). And Hermione's parents certainly seem supportive of her. It's similar to how interracial couples have biracial children who are then (hopefully) more tolerant of both races because they are part of both. And people in their families who love and support them should also be more open-minded just for having them in their lives. (This is certainly my hope as my husband is black and I am white and I am hoping the increase in interracial couples will over time create a greater awareness that we are all just people, no matter the color of our skin. . . but I digress.) So shouldn't there be Muggle families who have a witch or wizard in the family and so they lose whatever prejudice or fears they have had? Shouldn't the knowledge about the WW be spreading, however slowly, through the Muggle world, since they are interbreeding? Lady Macbeth replied: While I am with you in HOPING that people should be able to overcome intolerance, I'm not holding my breath too long. From the perspective of a modern witch who's only come out of the broom closet within the last year, I can tell you that there is a very real and very pervasive distrust or even hatred of magic among the general populace. And, while there ARE many more accepting people today, (such as the aforementioned Grangers and Evanses) there are plenty left who could make life very miserable for the magical minority. Remember Vernon's tantrum when he found out about the Ministry of Magic and the very IDEA that they might be connected to muggle government? And, because the Dursleys (and likely others like them) believe that a magical lifestyle is one that a person can choose (and that by keeping Harry in a closet under the stairs they would prevent that), I can very well see pushes to eliminate that lifestyle if it were out in the open for anyone to see. Banning marriage for magical persons, anyone? Heck, I've had people voice doubts to my face that my own marriage will work because I'm pagan and my husband is Christian. "There's just too much difference there for it to work," or so I'm told. (We've been married a year and a half now, lived together for three years prior, and we're still going strong. :p ) Like I said, I would LOVE to believe that being married into and living among the majority would change things for them and lead to more tolerance. But, like I said, I'm not holding my breath too long - after all, MY parents still don't know that I'm pagan OR bi OR support interracial/interreligious marriages, because all I hear out of THEM on those topics is racism, prejudice and hatred. :S -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 15:24:43 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:24:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > This leads me to wonder on Hermione's parents. Will Harry and Ron > become members of the OoP without Hermione? I can't see her parents > letting her join the group all summer long--so will JKR have them > endangered to put Hermione in the OoP, as well? > > The thing that keeps bothering me about Hermione is that we know so > little about her back-story. I keep wondering if we're fated to see > more of that family. Frankly, we know less of importance about them > than the Longbottoms, yet fewer words have been expended on the > Grangers. Classic Jo redirection? Jen: Hey Boyd! Good to see you posting again. I figured JKR was edging Hermione's parents *out* of the plot by having her spend Christmas at Grimmauld rather than skiing in the Muggle world. The Grangers sound more like Dean's parents, knowing only what Hermione tells them. She could tell them the Order of the Phoenix was a book club and they'd be none the wiser! Unless they read the Daily Prophet, I guess. If JKR wants a DE's-attacking-the-Muggles scenario, it must be the Dursleys. She already has so many plot-points to tie up to start a new one, IMO. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jun 21 15:23:26 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:23:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102257 > Susan wrote: > And of course, the obvious...Remus is the only Marauder left. He's > the only one who can tell Harry about his parents in a way no one > else really can. And somewhere in the info that he can impart to > Harry about his parents, the secret-keeper switch, etc., obviously > (IMHO)there's some very very important piece of information that will > help Harry understand what needs to be done to finally rid the WW of LV. < boyd: Although Snape knows some of this firsthand, as well! I just keep thinking how juicy it would be for Harry to have to learn something of vital importance--and something hard to swallow--about his parents from *Snape*! I only bring this up, because JKR leaves Harry on his own (with no loving adults) pretty much constantly, and I expect this to continue. So Lupin won't deliver some key piece of information with that loving kindness of his. Snape will spit it out in a painful spasm of hurt! Plus, this fits better with the whole don't-judge-a-book-by-its-cover theme. Frankly, Snape has been an ally of Harry's all along (AFAIK) despite Harry's insistence on suspecting him of evil at every turn. Just one more reason for Harry to be finally forced to genuinely rely on Snape before the series concludes. From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 15:30:41 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:30:41 -0000 Subject: Thought about Headquarters security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > > > I knew there would be people who disagreed with the possibility, but > > I was more interested in discussing the "what if?" possibilities. > > If you don't agree with the possibility of Voldemort gaining access > > in this manner, suppose then that Voldemort is in hiding near the > > area where Dumbledore informs some other character of the location > > of the headquarters. In that manner, then Voldemort has access to > > the headquarters. What do you think might happen then? > > Asian_lovr2/Steve: > > "What if..." can be a dangerous game. Generally, my rule for > (Obsessive/Compulsive) analysis of the books (past/present/future) is > not 'is it possible', but 'is it probable'. > > If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is not actually > about Occlumency or Legilimency, that was merely an example; what you > are saying is, let's start by assuming that Voldemort finds out about > 12 Grimauld Place, and speculate about what he would do with that > knowledge? > > Would he attack? ...full force direct attack? ...other? > > Would he try and enter by stealth? > > In a way, that might be a fair question. Although, it's difficult to > predict how it could happen, it seems reasonable that at some point > Voldemort will find out about 12 Grimauld Place. > > I think the only way he could actually get in, is to some how > directly, indirectly, or magically coerce someone into betraying the > Order and leading Voldemort's followers into the Order's Headquarters. > > I'm thinking in a manner similar to a muggle getting into The Leaky > Cauldron. Muggles can't see it and therefore can't find it, but a > magical person could lead them in. That's how Hermione's parents get > into Diagon Alley; Hermione has to lead them into a place they can't see. > > 12 Grimauld Place is the same way, except now, not even magical folks > can see it. And, just like The Leaky Cauldron and Diagon Alley, 12 > Grimauld Place takes up no physical space in the real world. > > So, being lead in by a betrayer is the only way that I could see > Voldemort or his followers getting into Grimauld Place. > > Now the big question is, who is the betrayer? > > Answer: don't know, but definitely NOT Percy. > > Just a thought. > > Steve You understand me very well. I think this is an area of the series we as a group have not really explored. Obviously, if Snape is the double agent some members suspect he is, he could be the one to lead the Death Eaters to Grimauld Place. But JKR rarely chooses the most obvious person. Snape or Percy would be the most obvious choices. So I think it will be someone like Tonks. We in general like her. We trust her. She's an auror, so she should be able to spot a dark wizard. But she is do darned clumsy. Of all the members of the Order we know of, I think she is the one most likely to slip up and give away the location of the Headquarters. MaggieB From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 15:56:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:56:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if Snape does not have to maintain a ny cover? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102259 Pippin: > > That, plus re-read what happens in the lesson in chapter 26. > Just after Harry makes his most successful effort at repelling > Snape, just after he breaks into Snape's mind, Snape tries > legilimens again--and Harry has a vision *he's never had > before*!!!! That's no memory--that's Voldemort, in real time, > manipulating Harry's mind right in the middle of Snapes !@#$% > office. And Snape knows it, because Harry tells him he's never > seen that before. No wonder Snape tells Harry he isn't working > hard enough. And Snape is right--Harry made no effort at all to > block the vision. Annemehr: No, that was a direct result of Occlumency lessons foreseen by Dumbledore, which is why he felt he could not teach it himself. In his talk with Harry in his office, he said "I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence." Of course, Harry didn't practice -- enough -- either. But if he wasn't working during that lesson, how did he block Snape just before? Annemehr Gina: I think that was Harry's natural ability, but I listened to this chapter again last night. Has anyone speculated if that was Snape's memory? Recent or from last time around? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 21 16:08:34 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:08:34 -0000 Subject: OT: British V American- Source UK Editions in USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102260 > bboy_mn (now Asian_lovr2): > I can live with the no index and no illustrations, but given that my > eyesight is fading as fast as my hairline, the small print made it > very difficult to read. > > As I read, I saw no noticable differences between the two. Minor > changes we made like 'sweater' for 'jumper', but few British-isms were removed from this book. The differences are so minor now, I don't see any need to get the UK versions. Mandy here: There's definitley a need if you're interested in really appreciating the feel of JKR's England and the WW inside it. If there is anything you can do about your eyesight and the small print of the UK books, do it. Believe me when I say it is worth it. Read the books in the language JKR wrote them in and you will get a far deeper appreciation of the HP universe in its true language. It is more than a few changes the spelling or the substitution of Sweater for Jumper. It's more about syntax and phrasing, grammar and intention. It's like comparing British and American bars of Cadbury's chocolate. The ingredients are the same and they are both definitely chocolate, but they taste very different. Mandy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 16:29:25 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:29:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102261 I think it was pretty clear by GoF that Ron and Hermione were a junior Benedick and Beatrice - and if that isn't enough, Hermione is very much the helpful friend in the case of Cho Chang, in OOP. I am only surprised that there is any argument over this. (g) And by the film of CoS, JKR was throwing out hints that the scriptwriter had put in a clue to things that would happen in future books - in the context, I believe it was that scene where Hermione cheerfully hugs Harry, but gets all awkward and shy with Ron and shakes hands. By the third movie, she is throwing her arms around him to weep - and I haven't heard JKR complain about this. Sorry, Peter, but I think it's clear - to me, at least - in the novels AND films that Hermione and Ron will eventually be an item. :-) Gina: If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I don't think you're ugly". I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, but she likes Harry and he is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. She wonders if Ron has noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a response! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 16:32:11 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:32:11 -0000 Subject: Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/comments about GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102262 hettiebe: > > One point that has always worried me is how Snape maintains his DE > > standing with Voldemort after the conversations he has had with > > Quirrel. Surely his defending the Philosopher's Stone and all that > > you don't want me as an enemy and and decide which side your are > on > > stuff would have given him away given that Voldy was supposed to > be > > on the back of Quirrel's head at the time. > > > > "hettiebe" > I'm gonna quote a little bit of this passage from ss first- " 'd-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, Severus...' 'Oh, I thought we'd keep this private,' said Snape, his voice icy. 'Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorcerer's Stone, after all.' Harry leaned forward. Quirrell was mumbling something. Snape interrupted him. 'Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?' 'B-b-but Severus I---' 'You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell,' said Snape, taking a step toward him. 'I-I don't know what you---' 'You know perfectly well what I mean.' An owl hooted loudly, and Harry nearly fell out of the tree. He steadied himself in time to hear Snape say, '---your little bit of hocus pocus. I'm waiting.' 'B-but I d-d-don't---' 'Very well,' Snape cut in. 'We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie.'" One could easily read this as Snape badgering Quirrell to get the stone for him, which is what Harry does. Maybe Harry's not so wrong in his interpretation. It's possible that that is the way that Snape is playing it, pressuring Quirrell into getting the stone for him and ultimately for voldemort but in reality Snape is doing this to gain information, to see how close Quirrell is to getting the stone so that he can prevent it when the time comes. Janelle From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Mon Jun 21 16:33:04 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:33:04 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: <20040621123344.66269.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > > As a brief surmise, there were two great noble families that were almost petty kings in their own right. Between them they guarded the northern border against marauding Scots. One family supported the established government for centuries and produced some of the most significant characters in English history - the Nevilles. The other family were their traditional enemies and produced generation after generation of traitors and troublemakers - their name? Percy. > > Now isn't that an interesting coincidence? > Neville vs Percy. > Could be fun. > > Kneasy > > > > > This is a very interesting theory. It would feed into Percy wanting power and him being "seduced" into the DE. This could be done by power (making him think that he is gaining it) or even actually "seducing" him in (Madame Lestrange). I like the later for this theory because that would give Neville a personal reason to go after Percy, personally. Or, maybe as a DE he goes after Gran?? How would that play on the Neville/Ron relationship? Could Ron see the whole thing objectively or would he still back his brother? Could this in turn play on the Ron/Harry relationship? > > moonmyyst (who is going to have to think about this one today) > > (hope all the dads had a great Father's Day yesterday) > For those listees horrified by the thought of a Weasley gone bad I can see a way of avoiding ESE!Percy, he may well be an example of: 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edward George Earle Lytton Bulwer-Lytton. In this he contrasts well with Neville because Neville always tries to do what he can/must even when he appears to have little chance of success. Regards Jo On the subject of Bulwer-Lytton for those of you who enjoy a literary joke or two visit the following site: www.bulwer-lytton.com/ From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 16:34:52 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:34:52 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > > Parent: Are you trying to tell me that Harry is not attempting to do > what you ask of him? > > Snape: That is exactly what I am saying! > The "Not MY Child!" syndrome. Anyone whose ever set foot in a public school knows this one. In many cases the parents are WORSE and more counterproductive than the whiny 'it's the teacher's fault!' students. Unfortunately they're also the loudest and if they don't get 'satisfaction' from the teacher, they go up the ladder all the way to the top, if need be, to get thier perfect children the coddling they deserve. To their GREAT detriment. Mel From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 21 16:48:29 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:48:29 -0000 Subject: Nicknames for Given Names (was: sharing an unimportant discovery ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102265 > Geoff: > Just off the top of my head without checking. The Weasleys may be > poor, but they are a pureblood family aren't they? > > Poverty doesn't equate with standing. There are lots of aristocratic families in the UK who have become poor through various circumstances but doesn't remove their ancestry.... Mandy here: No, but that poor aristocratic family had better marry money quick or risk loosing their standing. A title or name will help a child marry into a rich family looking of connections and social acceptance, but if they are not successful that family will be doomed to marry poorly and eventually be bred out. The Weasleys ancestry could eventually be disregarded, even though the family could always remain pureblooded, if the society they live in, the WW, chooses to shut them out. After years of shunning the aristocracy of the WW, the Weasleys could eventually work their family's name out of the WW equivalent of Burk's Peerage. It takes a lot of time, work and money, to maintain ones position in the social elite of society and if they doesn't work to achieve that, now matter how pureblooded they are, they will eventually be shut out. The name would die even if the puriety of blood remains. Which, I think is what has happened to the Weasley name already The Weasleys have shown that they do not care about power and wealth and social promotion and have made no attempt to ingratiate themselves to those in power to maintain a high profile as a pureblood family. Arthur points out to Malfoy, and us, in CoS that he has a very different idea of what makes a good name in the WW. Arthur is more interested in hard work and down to earth solid values. He simply does not believe in sucking up to those at the top, whoever they may be, in order to maintain a good family name. If anything the Weasleys have done everything they could to not maintain ties with those holding the power. (Why would they want to when you look at who is at the top?) Associating with muggle borns, supporting Dumbledore, working tirelessly to support relationships with the Muggle world. Every one of these things has worked against the Weasleys to shut them out of the top social class of the corrupt WW. And the Weasleys couldn't careless. All except Percy of course. Mandy From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 16:52:19 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:52:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102266 > GEO: Yes, but you seem to have forgotten that Ron fell for Hermione > during/after the Yule Ball. I'm not sure if I agree with this statement. I recently finished reading POA and I think it's highly likely that Ron started realizing his feelings for her in this book. The part that stuck out to me is how Ron in continually impressed when he sees new sides of her character, for example: when she slaps malfoy, when she sneaks out of the common room to get Harry's invisibility cloak and when she walks out of divination. I think that this series of events is when it all starts for Ron. Janelle From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jun 21 17:07:16 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:07:16 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102267 > Jen wrote: I like this idea--add in Hestia Jones or Dorcas Meadows with > Alice and Luna's mom, and Lily may have had her own group of friends > and allies! That would be a very powerful group from what little we > know so far: Lily the charms expert, Alice the Auror, Hestia or > Dorcas the transfiguration experts perhaps, and Ms. Lovegood as the > mysterious DOM ally? That's a group that could give the Marauders > some trouble ;). James and Sirius *did* eye Lily's wand 'warily' in > the OOTP Pensieve scene--maybe they had a bad experience, getting on > the wrong side of Lily's wand? Hehe. Served them right, no doubt. Mandy here: I want to add Narcissa Black into Lily's group. Mainly because we need an old friend of Lily's that is still alive. One who can give us some concrete canon about Lily in school. Granted Alice is alive, but incapacitated so unless Neville can come up with a cure were not going to get any old school storied out of her. Dorcus and Luna's mum are dead. I imagined Hestia as much older but that could be just my perception. From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 17:11:12 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) Message-ID: <20040621171112.77867.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102268 21June04 Geo wrote: "... I don't think Harry has the power to defeat Voldemort. Either way it seems obvious to me that he's not going into the final battle alone." Paula now: I'm not so sure about this. Harry's been conjuring a full Patronus for quite some time now, plus, look what he's already done to LV when he was still an infant. It took old Voldy a good 15 years (from Harry's infancy to OotP) to return to full powers. Wouldn't sell Harry so short. ~Paula Gaon See the Magical Creatures. http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 They are all together now. "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 17:21:42 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:21:42 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102269 > > Mandy here: > I want to add Narcissa Black into Lily's group. Mainly because we > need an old friend of Lily's that is still alive. One who can give us > some concrete canon about Lily in school. > Lily was a Muggle-born. Narcissa Black would have scratched her own eyes out rather than be Lily's friend. Darrin From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 17:20:00 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:20:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? References: Message-ID: <009b01c457b3$fc394270$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 102270 > > Mandy here: > I want to add Narcissa Black into Lily's group. Mainly because we > need an old friend of Lily's that is still alive. One who can give us > some concrete canon about Lily in school. > K Narcissa *Black*? As in the ancient house of 'we hate muggles' Blacks? And muggle-born Lily? I suspect has Narcissa been a friend of Lily's she might well have been scorched off the tapestry like Andromeda was. K From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 17:25:08 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:25:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? References: Message-ID: <00a601c457b4$b391c0a0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 102271 > > Jen: There's been speculation that Alice Longbottom was Lily's > friend, possibly even Harry's Godmother, but I don't think there's > any canon for that. Well, except they were around the same age and > both had infant sons, and surely both knew something about the > Prophecy (or at least that their sons were in danger)...OK, that's a > little canon for at least knowing each other! > K There's no direct canon for it but since they were roughly the same age, must have known each other through the Order, and were both pregnant (and presumably therefore restricted from 'active duty' with the order) at the same time I would suspect they were reasonably close unless of course their personalities were just so diametrically opposed that they hated one another. Plus if they knew about the Prophecy they would have had that in common too. I would compare them to army/navy/airforce wives whose husbands were in the same unit - even when they're people who might never have had anything else in common that does form a certain bond, and when you add in the fact that they were both going through their first pregnancy at the same time ... I can certainly see them as at least far more than casual acquaintances and possibly very close friends. Also they may both have been a little short on female relatives so having another pregnant woman around would have been nice (I'm basing that on the fact that other than Lily's horrible sister and Alice's mother-in-law both Neville and Harry are short on relatives) K From k_2324 at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 21 08:37:52 2004 From: k_2324 at yahoo.com.au (k_2324) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:37:52 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: <20040621054016.92968.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102272 Hmmmm, I didn't really mean to start off a public vs private sector debate, I'll choose my words better in the future, a long with a better example. That being said, of course some do. Just look at the system and it should become obvious why they do it. I mean, think about this, you have a private school where the parents are paying, in some instances over a thousand dollars a semester. Why are they paying that? Because the school's record is impressive. This puts amazing pressure on the teacher in each subject to ensure each and every student achieves the highest possible mark. In some schools (and I'm not saying all), they offer hours and hours of their free time to tutor students, they give out examples to help them in their essays, they tell the students exactly what the examiner wishes to hear in each topic, which areas to concentrate on in external exams (SATs for US). Why do they do that? Well they'll be fired if performance levels are too low. The school doesn't mind either. Any method that gets the school results are encouraged. This keeps up their reputation, which will in turn keep the fees required to enroll in the school sufficiently high. Catholic schools to a lesser extent, but they are still out there. Why, because in Catholic schools, the teachers performance is critiqued every couple of years, with the parents opinions taken into consideration. But not all schools do that. Just some. Yours was obviously an A grade school, that's all. I'm sorry if I offended you. Equally bad things can be said about public sector schooling, in fact nowadays worse things can be said about the public sector schools. However, it's appalling how some schools baby their students, it's not right, and dreadfully disadvantages them for the future, all because it makes their school look good and gives them more money. And yes, I know a whole lot of people that have gone through private schools. *Shrugs*, what can you do. But this is waayyyyy off topic. I think that the Slytherins have a right to be upset about how Professor Snape teaches them. It is going to ruin their marks in the OWLs. They are going to enter the exam with all this false confidence and perform a lot worse than they thought. It's like Severus is ensuring that no Slytherins (or very few) receive the required grades to enter his NEWT class. Maybe he's doing that intentionally. It would be quite inconvenient if DE's were able to infiltrate the Ministry and become aurors, so maybe this is Albus's way of making sure this doesn't happen, and maybe why Albus trusts Severus so much. Maybe Severus is aiding in disadvantaging his own house. Meh oh well, I'll be interested to see the OWL results. I can't see Harry getting the required potions mark to become an auror. Hey remember how JKRowling said that the first chapter of book 6 was the first chapter she wanted to use in book 1, and every subsequent book? It wouldn't be that Harry tries to run away and hide is it, because that sort of happened in book 3. But, it is one that she has been wanting to write since she started Harry Potter, I thought it would have something to do with escaping the Dursleys. Maybe JKR found it fit here because of all the added pressures he's been under. ~Ken. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 17:29:35 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: <1087807800.10475.73907.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040621172935.48401.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102273 Lady McBeth: I somehow doubt that JKR is going to abandon the Privet Drive plot device. She seems to stick to pattern pretty consistently. Jo has said that this will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive. It immediately came to mind that Harry might be called on to testify in the trials of those rounded up in the MOM. Tyler replies: Ooh, thats definitely a plausible theory; I can't believe I never thought of it. That would make alot of sense. If there is a trial and Harry testifies, is there a chance any of the DEs might get off? That could produce some interesting scenarios. I don't see how it would be possible, but it could happen. Thoughts anyone? ===== Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the glass as half-full. I see the glass as too big. ~ George Carlin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From JOEYPOTTER50 at AOL.COM Mon Jun 21 09:40:45 2004 From: JOEYPOTTER50 at AOL.COM (katiegryffindor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:40:45 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102274 I agree that her releasing a sort of study guide would be a great benefit to any fan of the written works. However I did read that she had no plan to release her notes as they were too many and too private. I do hope she changes her mind though as the insight they would provide would be vast. The extra things on her sight are very good if not slightly ambigious. We all know how much she enjoys throwing us red herrings. As with reference to the Hermione/Ron or Hermione/Harry she said that she was amazed we hadn't worked it out yet by the end of Order. If anything Order confused me even more. Kate From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 21 11:36:11 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:36:11 -0000 Subject: Harry @ Godric's Hollow - (TIME-TRAVEL RELATED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102275 "Mandy" wrote: [snip] > Mandy here: > Unless he calls her 'mum'? Or gives her some hint as to who he is. > It would be astounding to her, but if she see him standing before her > looking just like her husband and sees her own eyes looking back, she > would know who it was. Could she accept it? I think so, particularly > if it comes just when she is about to give up hope of her baby son > surviving the attack. If she sees a grown up Harry standing before > her, she'll know he'll survive. > > Yeah it's a stretch, but..... Bear in mind Hermione's speech when she stopped Harry from rushing in during the Time-Turner episode in POA (slightly edited for brevity): HG: "Harry, what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting into Hagrid's house?" HP: "I'd think I'd gone mad, or I'd think there was some Dark Magic going on ..." HG: "Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time ... loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!" Given Lily's oft-noted skill with Charms, I wonder whether she would react to the sudden appearence of someone uncannily like her husband (but obviously *not* him) at a time of extreme crisis in a calm and measured manner, or whether she would be inclined to blast first and ask pointed questions afterwards. -- Phil who has to keep reminding himself that it was JMS, not JKR, who swore that time-travel would be used in only one event albeit from both ends (and kept his promise :-) From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 21 11:52:58 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:52:58 -0000 Subject: Fred a great wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102276 abbet69 at y... wrote: > I was just rereading CoS and was wondering how a five year old Fred > could have changed Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider? I knew > Fred and George were talented, but this talented. There was that very small child at the Quidditch World Cup who managed to cast an Engorgment Charm on a slug. Maybe talent is not necessarily to do with being able to do stuff, but more to do with focussing on doing the *correct* and *desired* stuff. The case of Ron and *his* slug attack springs to mind: there must be another case where magic goes wrong because someone is distracted? Maybe during the MoM battle in OOP? -- Phil From ariadnedrue at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 13:01:44 2004 From: ariadnedrue at yahoo.com (ariadnedrue) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:01:44 -0000 Subject: Riddle me this... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102277 Someone help me with these (please) I recently did a reread of PoA and GoF and one thing stuck out in my mind that someone just made a comment on (Sorry couldn't find the thread). JK stated that everyone in GoF was in love with the wrong people. But did she mean in general or at the ball? If in general then we have: Harry/Cho Hermione/Ron (Didn't they have what Ron considered a date?) Krum/Hermione (Ball) (I didn't count Fleur because all the guys liked Fleur) and 2) Doesn't Luna live near the Burrow? Does anyone else think that she's going to join the trio this summer? "ariadnedrue" From lcolbert at netins.net Mon Jun 21 16:00:00 2004 From: lcolbert at netins.net (lene) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:00:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ambiguous JKR (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406211100.00373.lcolbert@netins.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102278 On Monday 21 June 2004 09:58 am, Susan wrote: > I definitely think it's a way for her to keep us all off balance, but > she also seems to enjoy having all of us scouring her books for > information that we apparently missed. Paraphrasing now, but re: > Sirius' motorcycle... She says she suspects some fans already have a > good idea where it is. I'd never speculated on this, but as I read your post, I had a sudden image of the cycle "living" out in the forest with the enchanted car. Made me laugh out loud. I'm not saying I've concluded this is the answer to the motorcycle puzzle, but it's an amusing little image nonetheless. Lene' (first time posting, so hello to all!) From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jun 21 16:23:39 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:23:39 -0000 Subject: Hermione in the Order, The Grangers (Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102279 boyd wrote: > This leads me to wonder on Hermione's parents. Will Harry and Ron > become members of the OoP without Hermione? I can't see her parents > letting her join the group all summer long--so will JKR have them > endangered to put Hermione in the OoP, as well? > > The thing that keeps bothering me about Hermione is that we know so > little about her back-story. I keep wondering if we're fated to see > more of that family. Frankly, we know less of importance about them > than the Longbottoms, yet fewer words have been expended on the > Grangers. Classic Jo redirection? My reply (Anasazi): I have believed that the Grangers are going to be targets of Voldemort since the end of GoF. In every book we are reminded that the Grangers are dentists muggles, but aside from that, we know next to nothing about them. I don't even believe we've heard them speak, even when they've appeared at least twice in the books. Why would she give so little back-story of the family of one of the most important characters in the books? As you've said, we know more about Neville's parents (and grandmother!) than we know of Hermione's family. In a chat, someone asked Jo if we would get to see more of Hermione's parents, and she answered with something like "Why would you want to know more about them? They're dentists, they're not that interesting" (paraphrasing)... now, THAT was a classic jo "evade-the-question" maneuver. It leads me to believe that the Grangers will play a bigger role, and there's no better time than during the Sixth Year, specially with the line about the second war starting. I think an attack on the Grangers would enrich both the plot line and the characters. For Hermione, who's only concerned in this war so far seems to be Harry, it would bring her face to face with the harsh reality of war and her relationship with Harry could only get stronger (not speaking shippy-wise). It reminds me of a line in OoTP where Hermione says that she wishes she could see the thestrals, and when Harry looks at her, she realizes what she has said and is horrified by what she has said. I personally believe Hermione will get her wish. Anasazi From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jun 21 16:28:08 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:28:08 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102280 Susan Wrote: > I definitely think it's a way for her to keep us all off balance, > but she also seems to enjoy having all of us scouring her books for > information that we apparently missed. Paraphrasing now, but re: > Sirius' motorcycle... She says she suspects some fans already have > a good idea where it is. Do you know in which chat/interview/site did she mentioned Sirius' motorcycle? Anasazi From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 17:55:27 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:55:27 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Susan Wrote: > > I definitely think it's a way for her to keep us all off balance, > > but she also seems to enjoy having all of us scouring her books for > > information that we apparently missed. Paraphrasing now, but re: > > Sirius' motorcycle... She says she suspects some fans already have > > a good idea where it is. > > Do you know in which chat/interview/site did she mentioned Sirius' > motorcycle? > > Anasazi Susan again: This is what Valky wrote, though I haven't tried to find the actual interview myself. >Valky: >I am hoping not to go OT by discussing this but since this is a >Sirius Bike thread I will mention it anyway, in the Book Day online >chat interview with JKR that I read recently JK said that careful >readers probably already know where Sirius Bike is now. I am >guessing she has casually referred to someone having seen it in the >books perhaps transformed into something else but having similar >features. Has there been discussion on this anybody? >Best to all. >Valky From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 18:38:26 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:38:26 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40D6AC82.28449.2A47C4A@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102282 >Shaun snipped: > The reason I defend Snape's teaching methods isn't because I > particularly agree with them. I certainly do not believe Snape is > the ideal teacher, or anything close to it. But I just have the > feeling that many people are conflating multiple issues into a > single monolithic view of Snape, and I don't think that's > particularly fair. > > I personally see two *separate* issues when it comes to Snape and > his teaching. (1) his specific treatment of a specific individual; > (2) his general pedeagogical techniques. >snipped really good post< Snow replies: I feel somewhat the way that you do Shaun with slight variations. I take a slightly different approach and think of what a parent would do if their child was Harry and Snape mistreated him. Let's take a look at Harry's parent (if he had one) calling a conference with Snape: The Parent Teacher Conference Parent: My son Harry is coming home everyday with stories of mistreatment and I thought it best to contact you personally to find out your side of what has been going on. Snape: I have only been attempting to teach your son. I can see potential for him to learn if he only took my course seriously. But then again Harry never has to take anything seriously does he? Someone will always get him out of his mess even if it means risking their neck. Parent: I think that last statement was totally uncalled for; you don't know the half of what he has been through. Snape: Oh I don't do I? Could it be that it is you who does not understand to what extent others have risked their lives to ensure this boys safety? Harry never seems to concern himself beyond his own inquisitiveness wh Parent: I see in front of me a teacher who is going outside the teacher/student relationship and purposely antagonizing my child. Snape: Teacher/student relationship? Huh You would have to have an actual student who wanted to put forth an effort to actually have a relationship of that magnitude. Parent: Are you trying to tell me that Harry is not attempting to do what you ask of him? Snape: That is exactly what I am saying! Parent: Well Harry comes home from school every day and tells me that he adds all his ingredients, cooks his potion and then you come along and destroy it and give him a 0 Snape: Let me ask you a question, do you wish to keep your son alive? Parent: Of course I do say what are you suggesting? Snape: I am suggesting madam, that if you wish to keep your son alive in my class you had best teach him to follow my directions. My class would be the equivalent in the muggle world to disarming a bomb. It is absolutely imperative to pay attention to detail, because in the end no one can bring Harry back from the dead. If he makes one wrong move on directions it could be his life or someone else's. Do you understand? It may sometimes appear that I am being rather harsh with the boy but in the end it may save him his own life. Parent: I think I understand what you are saying but I still will ask that you keep your personal feelings towards Harry out of the classroom. Snape: I have no personal disliking to the boy however I do dislike the fact that people like yourself allow him protection and excuses for all the reckless ways in which he acts without regard or consequence as a result of his actions. This only allows for the boy to continue to act in this same rash behavior. To be cont. by... Snow: who realizes that this should have been on T-Bay but isn't as talented as posters in the past were at it I would probably sink the ship :) From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 18:17:33 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:17:33 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102283 > Barbara bd-bear wrote : > > My read on this must be similar to Darrin's because I remember > > reading multiple times where unnamed Slytherins were laughing with > > Draco when he'd make fun of Harry or Hermione. > > Del replies : > There's a vast difference between actually doing the bullying or > mocking, and simply laughing at it. Many of us on this list admit to > have laughed at some things in the books that were both funny for us > and painful for whoever they were happening to. And after all Draco > *is* funny sometimes, if you don't happen to be a friend of Harry's. Ava: And I'd bet anything that that humorous aspect was not lost on Rowling. The child who reads these things and can't help but laugh - may ask him/herself - what part of ME is in that? And is that or is that not OK? (I ALMOST said "what part of me is a Slytherin?" but dearly departed Sirius & Potter certainly knew how to be bullies, & they weren't Slytherins.) > Del, wrote: > > Yes, let's discuss the degrees of bullying, and then let's have a > > poll to ask how many of our members NEVER indulged in some degree of > > bullying ! * * * > Barbara bd-bear answered : > > I am surprised at your statements asking "How many of us," as if > > that is a right of passage every kid goes through. I NEVER indulged > > in bullying and certainly never did the things you suggested above. > > Del replies : > Well, I must admit I'm amazed ! > But then maybe it's another one of those cultural issues. I remember > being surprised, when I went to Canada, at how much gentler the kids > seemed to be there. Maybe it's just France then Ava: [oh, well, bien sur, & all that] back to Del: , or maybe it's just > the schools I went to in France. But I can tell you that it was a > sport in those schools, to say witty nasty things about other kids. *** > Barbara bd-bear wrote : > > I was, however, the object of bullying and peer-abuse and I can tell > > you, it doesn't matter what "degrees" you talk about, it's all > > painful. > > Del replies : > Yes it's always painful. But I still stood it better when they > confined themselves with calling me names. There were things much > harder than that. Ava: Heaven forfend that I should bring up current events (I won't). But it would seem to me, as Del suggests, that there are far worse things than name-calling. And other than a few 'filthy Mudblood''s slung around, most of the Slytherin bullying seems like pretty generic nastiness, nothing that would particularly lead one to believe these are junior DE's (which I thought was the original issue). Lets not forget, even Sirius' nasty purist family was generally reluctant to join the DE's. How much more so, a Slytherin student who maybe isn't quite so inculcated with this view of the world. And even in that vein - childhood behavior does not necessarily determine how the adult turns out. I grew up in a neighborhood where - shall we say - my family celebrated the 'wrong' holiday in December. To put it mildly, this discrepancy did not go unnoticed. Years later, a former neighborhood kid who participated in certain distasteful name-calling, swastika-drawing & eye-blacking made it his business to apologize to my brother for his inexcusable behavior. It happens. Fortunately. And since we have fair warning (via the Sorting Hat) that the survival of Hogwarts (and by extension, I imagine, the WW), depends on cooperation between the houses, I would venture to guess that something of that sort will be necessary before the end. We know it's possible - just look at Phineas Nigellus, bless his heart. Ava From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 18:59:39 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621185939.45288.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102284 "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: | From: Dhyana | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:17 AM | | The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" (p 346, US edition). | | But when the list is being passed around and after everyone signed it, there was no mention of the trio signing it. IMO, it sounds as if Hermione passed | the parchment around for everybody else to sign, but didn't actually sign it herself or have Harry and Ron sign it. This would possibly leave the three of | them free to recruit new members in the future, whom they judged to be trustworthy. | -Dhyana And, that thought sounds quite plausible. Hermione wouldn't need to include Harry and Ron on the document because she knows and trusts them and knows that none of the trio would give the DA away to anyone who wasn't trustworthy...at least, not by choice. Cheers, Lee :-) This all sounds great, except I just read Chapter 27 The Centaur and the Sneak And to Harry's horror, she withdrew from her pocket the list of names that had been pinned upon the Room of Requirement's wall and handed it to Fudge. "The moment I saw Potter's name on the list, I knew what we were dealing with," she said softly. This is the scene after the DA had been discovered and Harry has been hauled to AD's office. From this we can assume that Harry had signed the paper, so we can also take that a step further and say that they all did. I also question whether they were able to tell others. Remember when Hr first mentioned forming the DA she stated that it should be open to all who want to join. Maybe it is jinxed so that any who tell with ill intent as opposed to recruiting, it would know the difference. moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 19:03:09 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:03:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102285 * Hi, this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm repeating stuff. > > Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? I can't remember what > exactly is told about the veil. > > I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads > somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from the > veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it will > take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. > Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) > > > Sheri C. Hi, Sheri! Welcome to SAD DENIAL. Join the dellusional ones (myself included) who believes that Sirius may come back int he bext books in one form or another. :o) Alla * * * * Gina: * As Alla stated we are considered delusional because we think Sirius alive when most say that he is really dead. I stick by my theory that he turned into the black dog as he entered the veil and thus remained alive. I also say that Phineus Nigellus knew would have immediately known he was dead, but he sounded as if he knew it were not true IMO - You heard it first here. * Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 19:08:46 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts about Racism in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621190846.82662.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102286 Lady Macbeth wrote: Lady Macbeth replied: While I am with you in HOPING that people should be able to overcome intolerance, I'm not holding my breath too long. From the perspective of a modern witch who's only come out of the broom closet within the last year, I can tell you that there is a very real and very pervasive distrust or even hatred of magic among the general populace. It is nice to know that I am not the only one here!! BB!! I am a "heridtary witch" myself. I have my family roots traced back to Ireland and the late 1600's (would love to take about a month and go "across the pond" and see how much further I can take them) and there are witches (male and female) in every generation. I cannot concur more about the problems in today's society. I could not immagine if we had the kinds of powers that Harry's world has. I have been run out of jobs, friendships, towns, etc. While I am far from a racist, I can also understand the initial feelings that led to the seperation of the WW from the Muggle world. The road to tolerance is a long one and I think that, more than anything, is what JKR is trying to show in these books. moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 19:13:02 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4758 In-Reply-To: <1087843193.16689.18270.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040621191302.91828.qmail@web52501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102287 Message: 1 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:30:41 -0000 From: "rzl46" Subject: Re: Thought about Headquarters security "Obviously, if Snape is the double agent some members suspect he is, he could be the one to lead the Death Eaters to Grimauld Place." The only way to see it is to be given its location by the secret keeper. The escort committee couldn't lead Harry into the bldg until he had read and comprehended the note from Dumbledore. . __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 19:12:15 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621191215.90216.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102288 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: * Hi, this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm repeating stuff. > > Anyway, are we absolutely sure Sirius is dead? I can't remember what > exactly is told about the veil. > > I believe that the veil is like a portal or something that leads > somewhere spiritual (Harry and Luna both mention hearing voices from the > veil). Sirius may be there but not physically dead. I think all it will > take is an ancient spell that DD will find to bring him back. > Maybe Sirius is off chatting with James and Lilly. :) > > > Sheri C. Hi, Sheri! Welcome to SAD DENIAL. Join the dellusional ones (myself included) who believes that Sirius may come back int he bext books in one form or another. :o) Alla * * * * Gina: * As Alla stated we are considered delusional because we think Sirius alive when most say that he is really dead. I stick by my theory that he turned into the black dog as he entered the veil and thus remained alive. I also say that Phineus Nigellus knew would have immediately known he was dead, but he sounded as if he knew it were not true IMO - You heard it first here. * Gina I know that JKR has said that when someone is dead, they are dead. I know that everyone in OotP said he is dead, but did JKR actually say that he is dead? Could the people in the book be mistaken or mislead? Is there another way around this? moonmyyst (who LOVES Sirius) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 19:28:00 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:28:00 -0000 Subject: A portrait for Sirius... Was JKR tells about reason Sirius had to die In-Reply-To: <20040621191215.90216.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102289 > > > > Hi, Sheri! Welcome to SAD DENIAL. Join the dellusional ones (myself > included) who believes that Sirius may come back int he bext books in > one form or another. :o) > > > > Alla > * > * Hey, cool! Can I join? Seriously, I'd like to know what you have to do to become a portrait? Perhaps Sirius and Phineas can hang out in portraits together. Darrin From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 19:31:41 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:31:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggarts & Riddikulus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102290 The Third Task, GoF... ""Hang on!" he shouted, advancing in the wake of his silver Patronus, "You're a boggart! Riddikulus!" There was a loud crack, and the shape-shifter exploded in a wisp of smoke. "<<< I was going to mention that as well, but I also wanted to ask, the way Lupin taught about fighting the Boggarts, didn't he say that "Riddikulus" changed it into something laughable to the person facing it? Yet when Lupin and Harry say "Riddikulus!" the Boggart just explodes. Am I confused or is this a JKR inconsistency? Guess I'll go check POA to double-check what Lupin taught them. Barbara bd-bear Gina: I thought the funny part was the it burst like a balloon or bubble - what can you think of that would make the moon really funny? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 19:34:12 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:34:12 -0000 Subject: Blame, blame, blame.... In-Reply-To: <003c01c44e75$d40bcda0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" wrote: >Tell me then, where the blame stops, and the hate begins....? "K": I'm sure not trying to get anything started again but I haven't been able to reply until now. I have read very few of the posts since all the blame game started. But again I do that so I can continue to love most all the characters and enjoy the books. I don't like to argue just for the sake of it. I don't find that fun at all. If others do that's fine. As I mentioned before, I'm more interested in clues and theories. I don't understand most of the hate. I can't understand why one character is loved regardless of when their actions are not acceptable and yet another character is never, ever allowed to have one flaw. I believe when that happens it clouds the ability to look at the story in an objective way. Of course I never have that problem ^-~ silverthorne: >Do you honestly know what's going on with these characters, and >*WHY they do certian things? "K": That's right. There's really so little information we have on most of the characters. Annemehr: >I'm not for excusing Harry for the times he has no excuse, either, >but I do think a lot of people blame Harry too much for how the >Occlumency lessons went (and didn't go). "K" I honestly don't want to discuss the Occlumency blame game again because none of us are going to change. :-) Yet I think the Occlumency parts are very interesting and there are loads of little hints in those exhanges between Snape and Harry but we can't seem to get to them. For instance, what about the part where Snape asks Harry about the dog? Seems like a strange thing to ask about and Snape doesn't ask many questions. So why is he so interested in the owner of the dog? Well, many people believe this is nothing more than Snape taking an opportunity to have a laugh at the expense of Harry. One can't have a theory discussion about the dog and owner because even that turns into Snape hating. But the problem isn't just with Harry and Occlumency. It's with Harry and whatever else he does that might be wrong. Some folks are blinded by Harry Love and make excuses for the boy. If anyone dares to challenge Harry's actions then one is labeled a Harry Hater which just isn't always the case. Surely I have the right to say I don't like it when Harry tells a lie or once again does not listen to what he is told. That doesn't mean I hate the kid. Far from it. I feel for Harry a great deal and only want the best for him. He's a good but imperfect person. Annemehr: >There's one more very important statement from Dumbledore in that >chapter: >Dumbledore: "I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to >teach you myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could >have been more dangerous than to **open your mind even further to >Voldemort** while in my presence --" [emphasis mine] "K" Dear Dumbledore. He also makes mistakes. I left out some other good points you made only because I think it will take us back to the blame game again. Annemehr: >As for a connection between Harry and Snape, my mind is open, but so >far I don't think so, if you mean something akin to the scar >connection between Harry and LV. If you mean that their relationship >will be important, then I agree. There's also the fact that Harry >knows Snape knows Occlumency and Legilimency, which may be put to >better use someday. >And yes, I agree Harry may have learned more Occlumency than anyone >realises. "K": I honestly don't know what the connection could be but I just think there's more to it than what we see on the surface. That's what I'm interested in. I must also say that I don't believe for one moment that Snape couldn't put aside his feelings and that he would put the Order or Harry's life in jeopardy. That is not what we have seen from Snape. Snape appears to be a man on a mission and he's not going to risk throwing it all away. I believe Snape ended those lessons because he was finished with what needed to be done. Harry just doesn't know yet all he can do. Now a couple of other items. I don't believe I must like Harry the most since the story is about him. I can think of other stories where I've liked secondary characters better than the main. I don't see any problem with that. If I say I would love to see a few good kids in Slytherin house, that doesn't mean I stand for evil. It's the hope that some kids will stand for what is right. It's the hope that there are other Slytherin adults that have taken the stand for goodness but we don't know who they are yet. Maybe I'm different from most of the people here but I can still enjoy the great amount of humor in the books. I can just sit and read the books and not think of all our theories and all our blame, etc. I can just sit and enjoy a good read. I don't intend to lose that. "K" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 19:35:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:35:49 -0000 Subject: A portrait for Sirius... Was JKR tells about reason Sirius had to die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, Sheri! Welcome to SAD DENIAL. Join the dellusional ones (myself > > included) who believes that Sirius may come back int he bext books in > > one form or another. :o) > > > > > > > > Alla > > * > > * > > > Hey, cool! Can I join? > > Seriously, I'd like to know what you have to do to become a portrait? Perhaps > Sirius and Phineas can hang out in portraits together. > > Darrin Hi, Darrin! Sure you can, but I was not the one, who founded this SHIP, so the final decision will lay with ... I don't remember the name of the poster. I think it was Terry. Sorry, if I am wrong. :o) Portrait, spirit, ghost, anything is fine with me. I just want Sirius to come back in one form or another. Sad, I know. :o) Alla From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jun 21 19:43:42 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:43:42 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102293 JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could relate to. The difficulty for me is that PS opens in an entirely different way to the other 2 books, as it is not written from Harry's point of view. However, as we know that she had several opening chapters, it is perhaps possible to assume that one of them at least did follow the Harry at the Dursley's pattern. In both PoA and OoP, Harry is under extreme stress, in PoA, he loses control and blows up Aunt Marge, in OoP, he has to stop himself performing magic against Dudley: "Harry could feel fourteen years' hatred of Dudley pounding in his veins ? what wouldn't he give to strike, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home" OoP UK edition p.19. So, an obvious opening could be that Harry loses control ? or no longer cares enough to control ? and performs magic against one of the Dursleys. The trouble with this, is that it has already been done ? Harry released the snake at London Zoo in PS, and he blew up Aunt Marge. Surely, there would be no way of preventing serious punishment from the MoM if he were to lose control again? An alternative possibility which would have fitted at the beginning of PS as well as PoA and OoP, would by a scenario which revealed *why* Petunia agreed to take Harry in the first place. It could just be because she couldn't let her nephew be killed, but I am not alone in thinking there was more to it. When Dumbledore explains why he sent Petunia a Howler in OoP, it is because he "thought that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you" p. 737. I have never thought that the word "pact" was synonymous with "charm" ? IMO Petunia received something in return for taking Harry in. If I'm right, this pact is vital to the plot. I don't believe that gold would have been sufficient to make Petunia do it, her fear of all things wizarding, and her obvious distaste for Harry are too great. The pact must have had something to do with distancing her and her family from the WW. My favourite hunch is that Petunia agrees to take Harry in as long as Dudley doesn't know that he is a wizard. Now, I know that there has been much debate surrounding the person who will find magic late in life, my favourite candidates have only ever been Petunia and Dudley. I just have never felt that giving Mrs Figg or Filch magic would be anything other than convenient, it wouldn't add to the richness of the story. But, there are potentially large repercussions for Harry if either Petunia or Dudley finds an ability to do magic. The question is, how would either Petunia or Dudley find out now that they have magical powers? Well, Neville only discovered he had magical powers when he was dropped out of a window, Harry only used his latent powers when he was upset or angry. Dudley on the other hand has had very little cause to get upset or angry. When he has, the tortoise has been thrown over the greenhouse and his play station has been broken ? perhaps there were more to these incidents than we have hitherto understood. Supposing, we see Harry at last trying to get his own back on Dudley only to find Dudley pushed to the limit and responding with magic? Once Dudley became aware of his magical abilities, Petunia's pact would be broken. She would no longer need to look after Harry, as Dudley's protection from the WW would be gone. Hence Harry's swift removal from Privet Drive. I suppose the question at this point though would be, would Petunia really let Harry go, knowing the danger that she was placing him in? I *want* to believe that Petunia has stronger moral fibre than that. I can see Dudley producing magic at the beginning of PS, when he was too young to understand it. I can see it happening in PoA and OoP, for me, it does fit the scenario. If Dudley isn't the person to produce magic in later life, then arguably it is Petunia. If Petunia is a Witch, does she know she is? Has she always known she is? Did she chose to avoid the WW? My personal belief is no: she sounds very jealous of Lily. But of course, she could be simply bitter. It's more than a possibility that her parents died because of Lily. Perhaps, but unlikely, she did discover she was a witch, but the whole idea of the WW terrified her, and then she was unable to comprehend why her parents were so proud of Lily: I don't believe that this fits with the facts though. I don't believe she would have sounded off at Harry if she knew she was a witch but had chosen not to go to Hogwarts. If Petunia does suddenly find herself with magical abilities, would this change the pact she has made with Dumbledore? I can't think why it would ? although of course, I don't know what the pact is, if it is not to protect Dudley. It might change her relationship with Harry, Vernon and Dudley, but would it be sufficient to cause Harry to spend very little at Privet Drive this time round? On balance, my favourite opening to OoP would be that Harry has the fight he has imagined having with Dudley since the story began. The result though is that Dudley realises he has magical powers, and Harry loses his refuge at 4, Privet Drive. Ali (Writing during half time, and still hoping that England can win) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 19:47:40 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:47:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102294 * > Q:Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? > > A: I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. > > Am I the only surprised that JKR believes the answer is an easy one to work out since there are many diligent amateur Potterists who have analyzed the textual evidence who cannot answer the question beyond a shadow of a doubt? I had begun to believe that JKR wanted this question to be hard to answer. Hi, Peter. I believe the same way you do... I think JKR did want this question to be hard to answer. R/Hr believers like sbursztynski and Firedancer believe firmly that R/Hr is the way to go, because they have "proof" that Hr/R like each other, with Ron's jealousy over Krum and Hermione's snapping at him that he should have asked her to the ball if he had a problem with her going with Krum. But ask a H/Hr believer like myself and, apparently, mcmaxslb (in her post for "Re: Adolescent Development in OOTP"), and we are going to tell you exactly the opposite because we have "proof" that Hr is in love with H (although he's too thick to notice), with Krum's jealousy over Harry on GoF, and with her kiss on the cheek after a conversation with Krum at the end of GoF, and how she left Ron's very important championship game without so much as a protest to go with Harry and Hagrid to the forest (I'm a H/Hr shipper, and this even hurts me! Specially when we know she hasn't missed a single game of Harry), and her business-like tone when she interrogated him about Cho's kiss. So you see, the so called "proof" is ambiguous at best and can be manipulated to our heart's content. JKR might try to hide the fact that she made Hermione's object of affection ambiguous on purpose... but we know better! She knows what she's doing... and is loving every minute of it! Cheers, Anasazi -who feels strangely proud of finally making her first post on this list. Gina: * Count me in as one of the BIG H/H shippers! I think there is much more subtle yet reliable/realistic hints for H/H. The only thing I saw that has EVER made me nervous of R/H is OOTP when Harry thinks Ron and Hermione remind him of Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, but that is only one instance and may be just because he is jealous and does not realize it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 19:49:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:49:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Geoff: > If that were the case, why did he choose a late 1950s/early 1960s > model car? > > He could easily create a much newer and better model and replace it > at three year intervals - even run a firm called WeasleyLease.. :-) Gina: First I'd like to say only the latter part of that comment > is mine. The part about canon was posted by someone else I only said "I > still say Mr. Weasley used it to make the flying car...yada...yada" > > My answer to your question Jeff is that Mr. Weasley is POOR and cannot > afford any newer model car. I would say in his Muggle collecting he found > that old shell of an Ford and used it. Geoff: (1) If Arthur Weasley can adapt the inside of the car as a TARDIS, why can't he create the whole body? (2) Failing that, the Ford Anglia went out of production in 1969 or thereabouts. There are very few still around. He could more easily have found the remains of a much newer car and used that. (3) I always say to my friends that if they mis-spell my Christian name as the American version, they are cut off my Christmas card list. :-)) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 19:52:11 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:52:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102296 Even in her web page JKR refuses to tell who does Hermione love, Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe Ron will turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do you think? "saavi" Gina: I have ALWAYS believed this! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon Jun 21 19:35:31 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:35:31 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Who Hermione could like, and the rest. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102297 Usually I stay away from the ship discussion, because every group seems see what they want and ignore the rest (like every one in every subject). What a non-shipper saw: Ron is clearly interested by Hermione BUT he doen't see it until now. And I think that he still doesn't see it. In GOF, he admit, recognize, and have a crush on Fleur, Veela or not. It's still there when she kissed him after the second task and in the end. (Talking about what Ron felt, here.) Ginny was in a shy fangirl mode with Harry until GOF. First the shyness has diminished (she begin to talk to him when the boys just were turned down by their girls) but the crush is still here (her smile disappear when Harry say that he asked to Cho). During the Ball, she thought something like 'he doesn't really see me, better to watch elsewhere'. Now, it seems that her next target is Dean (safe if she said that just to bother Ron). I'm sorry to the R/Hr and H/Hr shipper, but the non-shipper (ok, me) doesn't see Hermione acting 'in love' with any of them. The both at worst. I think she was sincerely furious when Ron didn't ask her for the Ball, she kissed Harry on the cheek, and she didn't like Fleur (maybe she was furious when she kissed the both of them because they're HER boys, who know :D). But you all forget with who she's gone in the Ball, and at who she still writing and with who she keep contact. Viktor Krum. For now, it's possible that the only boy that don't be one of her friends, and with who she doesn't to ask too much question to herself, is Krum. Now, Harry. The only girl he ever see is Cho. The crush began in POA. He remarks the girls in GOF and still only see Cho. And in OOTP, he try his chance with Cho. I don't think that he thought or looked another girl during 3 years. Now, the poll is opened. That, if he doesn't think that it's too risky to let someone near him (for him or the girl). I think it's all. Christelle. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:06:25 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621200625.26187.qmail@web60109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102298 delwynmarch wrote: I, Del, wrote : > How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? owlery2003 comments: Lots of examples throughout the books - the few that leap to mind are the "oversight" of slyth quidditch team members hexing the gryffindors (despite numerous witnesses), the "no marks for you" approach in potions (repeatedly), the override of wood's booking the quidditch pitch for practice (admittedly minor), the automatic detentions and points against ron/harry when they held neville back from launching into malfoy . . . wish I had more time to remember more! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 21 20:07:06 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:07:06 -0000 Subject: DA Question In-Reply-To: <20040621185939.45288.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: Dhyana > | Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:17 AM > | > | The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" (p 346, US edition). > | > | But when the list is being passed around and after everyone signed it, there was no mention of the trio signing it. IMO, it sounds as if Hermione passed > | the parchment around for everybody else to sign, but didn't actually sign it herself or have Harry and Ron sign it. This would possibly leave the three of > | them free to recruit new members in the future, whom they judged to be trustworthy. > | -Dhyana Lee: > And, that thought sounds quite plausible. Hermione wouldn't need to include Harry and Ron on the document because she knows and trusts them and knows that none of the trio would give the DA away to anyone who wasn't > trustworthy...at least, not by choice. moonmyyst: > This all sounds great, except I just read Chapter 27 The Centaur and the Sneak > > And to Harry's horror, she withdrew from her pocket the list of names that had been pinned upon the Room of Requirement's wall and handed it to Fudge. > > "The moment I saw Potter's name on the list, I knew what we were dealing with," she said softly. > > This is the scene after the DA had been discovered and Harry has been hauled to AD's office. From this we can assume that Harry had signed the paper, so we can also take that a step further and say that they all did. I also question whether they were able to tell others. Remember when Hr first mentioned forming the DA she stated that it should be open to all who want to join. Maybe it is jinxed so that any who tell with ill intent as opposed to recruiting, it would know the difference. Geoff: I've just been reading that bit and I would put a different interpretation on it. By the fact that were are not told that Harry and Co. did not sign the paper, I assume that they did which would bring it into line with the quote above. Perhaps Hermione felt that they had now gathered all the likely members of the DA at that point in time. From senderellabrat at aol.com Mon Jun 21 20:06:51 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:06:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <006601c4565a$95a37760$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Firedancer" wrote: > I have to agree that all the evidence points to Hermione and Ron, but I > still wonder why it wasn't H.-and-H. I guess the easy answer is, it just > didn't happen that way, but the question still niggles me. Anyone have any > speculation? June > None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! > Siempre revelde!! > June I'm not a big shipper, although I do love the thought of Hermione & Ron. At this point, anything's possible. Just because there's no H/H spark right now doesn't always mean that's the end of it (someone pointed out boys are slower to mature than girls.. some slower than others!). My dh & I were best friends (with no sort of spark so to speak) for about 9 years. We were VERY H/H-like all through high school and into our 20s. Then one day it just happened. Granted, we did have the battles R/H do, but that's just because we're both too much alike & both too stubborn. My point is, it's anyone's game right now. Just because sparks don't fly (or hint at flying)RIGHT NOW between any character you chose to pair up doesn't mean it won't happen. JKR likes to throw us for a loop! I think it's her favorite past time. =o) Like I said a minute ago, at this point in the game, anything's possible! Sen From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 21 20:16:54 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:16:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102301 Whoa! I had never seen World Book Chat - great stuff. That totally fits! Gina "saavi" wrote: > My theory is that Hermione knows that Ron has feelings for her and > she is flattered by it and not so sure how to deal with it. In the > other hand, she has feelings for Harry, but she is smart enough to > wait until he feels the same for her (or until he realizes that in > fact he already has feelings for her). This may be the reason why > Hermione tells Harry that in love matters "Harry, you're worse than > Ron.... Well, no, you're not,..."(pag 572) Because Ron knows what > he feels for Hermione, but he doesn't dare to tell her about it and > is allways so clumsy and rude. At least Harry try to make things > work out with Cho. > > Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe Ron > will turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do you think? MY REPLY: I think that's going to happen too. I don't believe anyone would doubt that Ron has feelings for Hermione... is the other way around that there are doubts (if Hermione has feelings for Ron). There's a question on the World Book chat that particularly struck me as odd, and I think it's related to what you said about Hermione coming between Harry and Ron. (I'm paraphrasing, I don't have intervieww here). ------ Q: Is Harry going to be back in the Quidditch Team on Book Six? JKR: Harry is already on the team. Whether the new Captain lets him stay is a whole other story? ------ I believe that the only person that can occupy this post is Ron. First, Ron has often joke about being captain, just like he joked about winning the Quidditch cup. He did won the Quidditch cup, so why couldn't he be captain? Considering that Angelina, Fred, George, Katie and Alicia are leaving the team upon graduation at the end of Harry's Fifth Year. That leaves Ron, Ginny, Jack and Andrew on the team. Ron is the one that has the most experience in Quidditch from that lot (I'm not considering Harry, because I don't think that Harry could kick himself off the team). Now, don't consider for a second I'm a Ron basher. I love my Ronniekins, I think he's absolutely adorable and a much needed part of the trio. HOWEVER, he has shown that he CAN get quite "jealous" of Harry and that their friendship can be temporarily severed, like what happened in GoF. What if Ron found out that the girl he "loves" doesn't like him that way, but likes Harry? I think that might prompt another falling out between Ron and Harry a la GoF, and that might explain the quote from World Book, cause as captain Ron has the authority to decide who can play and who can't. However, if this indeed happens, I'm pretty sure Ron will end up rising to the occasion, whether he gets Hermione or not. Me Loves My Ron! Anasazi ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:21:51 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:21:51 -0000 Subject: Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/comments about GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102302 Janelle wrote: I'm gonna quote a little bit of this passage from ss first- " 'd-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, Severus...' 'Oh, I thought we'd keep this private,' said Snape, his voice icy. 'Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorcerer's Stone, after all.' Harry leaned forward. Quirrell was mumbling something. Snape interrupted him. 'Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?' 'B-b-but Severus I---' 'You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell,' said Snape, taking a step toward him. 'I-I don't know what you---' 'You know perfectly well what I mean.' An owl hooted loudly, and Harry nearly fell out of the tree. He steadied himself in time to hear Snape say, '---your little bit of hocus pocus. I'm waiting.' 'B-but I d-d-don't---' 'Very well,' Snape cut in. 'We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie.'" One could easily read this as Snape badgering Quirrell to get the stone for him, which is what Harry does. Maybe Harry's not so wrong in his interpretation. It's possible that that is the way that Snape is playing it, pressuring Quirrell into getting the stone for him and ultimately for voldemort but in reality Snape is doing this to gain information, to see how close Quirrell is to getting the stone so that he can prevent it when the time comes. vmonte responds: Good points Janelle. The only other comment I have though is that at the end of SS/PS, Quirrell tells Harry that Snape was not working for Voldemort--and since LV was there he should by now know that Snape is not his loyal subject. (Quirrell exonerates Snape from being an accomplice.) I keep feeling that something more is going on. Is it possible that Quirrell had moments where he tried to fight against LV? Did he really have garlic in his turban? When Harry caught Q crying in one of the classrooms, was Q trying to fight against possesion? Something doesn't feel right to me. vivian From twinslove at mindspring.com Mon Jun 21 20:08:17 2004 From: twinslove at mindspring.com (Kimberly Roth) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:08:17 -0500 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy References: Message-ID: <004e01c457cb$81073f90$a11ba8c0@KIMBERLY> No: HPFGUIDX 102303 Gina: If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I don't think you're ugly". I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, but she likes Harry and he is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. She wonders if Ron has noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a response!>> I completely agree, Gina. Ron may have started to show interest for Hermione, but I haven't seen the same from Hermione towards Ron (except in the movie). In fact, I read the opposite with Hermione. And also I think Cho realizes it more than Harry realizes it. Like you said, Harry hasn't noticed Hermione as a girl yet. JMO. Kimberly *who will go back into lurk mode. :-) From tarasenk at msu.edu Mon Jun 21 20:24:54 2004 From: tarasenk at msu.edu (Kimberly) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:24:54 -0000 Subject: Ambiguous JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102304 Anasazi Wrote: Paraphrasing now, but re: Sirius' motorcycle... She says she suspects some fans already have a good idea where it is. Do you know in which chat/interview/site did she mentioned Sirius' motorcycle? Kimberly: It is from the World Book Day Chat. Here's a link to the full transcript from TLC: http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html And this is the question with answer: Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike? JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the real sleuths among you might be able to guess. Kimberly From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:28:24 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:28:24 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Racism in HP (Now very LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: While > Blacks and Jews certainly have reason to be cautious because of each groups > history of persecution, I don't think the same type of large factions have > developed (similar to the DEs/Slytherins-we-know) who have such a widespread > bias against their former oppressors (not that there aren't smaller groups > of these people, I'm just comparing them with the whole pure-blood mindset > in WW), nor do I think they have ever grown to a large enough group overall > to be a threat to non-Jews or non-Blacks the way the DEs/Slytherins- we-know > have targeted Muggles and Mudbloods. So in thinking all this, I was > wondering if JKR actually did have some time of modern equivalent in mind > for the pure-bloods and the Muggles. . .perhaps I don't know my history well > enough to spot it. Lady McBeth: Actually, I think there are several examples of groups responding agressively to former oppressors. In most cases it would appear that the formerly downtrodden have been given a more level playing field, or the situation has become reversed, but the hatred still exists between the two groups. Examples of this . . . the Crusades, the current (and extremely long lasting) situation in Isreal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians, any number of ethnic squabbles occuring in northern Africa, etc etc. The idea of ethnic cleansing outside of Hitler's adaptation seems to be frequently overlooked in world affairs. In the WW/RW relationship there are differences. It is obvious that WW/RW leaders are aware and in contact with one another. It is only when we come down to general society that the relationship changes. Most everyday muggles don't know the wizard world exists. They probably haven't thought about it since the burning times unless they majored in history. We are also presented with two different views of those muggles who do know about the WW. 1) Positive=The Evans, Lily's Parents, The Grangers, etc who are delighted or at least supportive of the family witch or wizard. 2) Negative=The Dursleys, Tom Riddle Sr etc who fear the magic world probably because they don't understand it. The same goes for the wizard view of muggle borns and half bloods; positive and supportive vs negative and lack of understanding. It is my opinion, after years of study the the negative viewpoint comes from two possible sources. First is the scapegoat theory. Groups have been persecuted over time because those in power need someone else to blame for their problems. This works incredibly well in gaining popular support; look at Hitler's success in Germany and the Catholic success in various situations. Persecuted groups in these situations are identified as problem causing and inferior. The second theory is the lazy leader complex. In this scenario a powerful group needs something done, but is too lazy to do it themselves. Examples of this are black slavery, Jews in Egypt, and so forth and so on. This second theory does not fit the HP model. It appears that we then must go with model 1. It of course makes perfect sense. Leaders must find someone to blame problems on to maintain power and teach the rest of their world that non-magic folk are inferior! Thats just my two cents, okay so its more like four . . . LMB, who should go back to school so she can use this as her doctoral dissertation! From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jun 21 20:39:28 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:39:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102306 | From: Ali | Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 15:44 PM | JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of | the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and | OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could | relate to. | | The difficulty for me is that PS opens in an entirely different way | to the other 2 books, as it is not written from Harry's point of | view. However, as we know that she had several opening chapters, it | is perhaps possible to assume that one of them at least did follow | the Harry at the Dursley's pattern. [Lee]: Well, let's see...Sorcerer's starts with Vernon's POV, to Dumbledore's POV, then moves to Harry. The COS and POA start with Harry's POV. GOF starts with the back story of Little Hangleton and goes into Frank Brice's POV, then to Harry's. OOTP starts with Harry's. Perhaps Book 6 will start at the Order, discussing how to give certain information to Harry that he really has "earned the right" to know, etc., which then gives us some backstory on GH, etc. [Ali]: | In both PoA and OoP, Harry is under extreme stress, in PoA, he loses | control and blows up Aunt Marge, in OoP, he has to stop himself | performing magic against Dudley: | | "Harry could feel fourteen years' hatred of Dudley pounding in his | veins what wouldn't he give to strike, to jinx Dudley so | thoroughly he'd have to crawl home" | | OoP UK edition p.19. [Lee]: Interesting thoughts. :-) I'm going to figure it's Dudley who ends up being magical, but part of me would rather see Petunia end up with it. I'm just gonna sit back and almost patiently wait for book six with fingers and toes crossed for good back stories. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:42:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:42:27 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102307 Kneasy said : > > > A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he > > > was eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. Jen answered : > > hm, never noticed that. What does *that* mean? Unless he's not > > Frank's son. We know he looks like Alice, so she's definitely the > > mom. Don't know what to make of this. Kneasy commented : > Hmm. Yes. I feel the same way. A flint? Hope not. It's these > unconsidered trifles that give us a chance to get really imaginative > when we finally do take notice of them. Del replies : Sorry guys, but I DO think it's a kind of Flint. We weren't introduced to the concept of Squibs until the second book, CoS. In the first book we had lots of information to digest in the first chapters, and I guess JKR just didn't want to add the unnecssary complexity of using the word Squib. So she used Muggle instead. But Neville *can't* be Muggle at all : he's a pure-blood, we've been told so repeatedly. And remember also that when PS/SS was published, nobody knew if the following books would ever be published. So why introduce a concept (Squibs) that wouldn't be used anywhere else in the book ? Del From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:47:35 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:47:35 -0000 Subject: Riddle me this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnedrue" wrote: > Someone help me with these (please) > > I recently did a reread of PoA and GoF and one thing stuck out in my > mind that someone just made a comment on (Sorry couldn't find the > thread). JK stated that everyone in GoF was in love with the wrong > people. > > But did she mean in general or at the ball? > > If in general then we have: > > Harry/Cho Meri: Well, I was pretty sure that that was never going to work out. I don't think anyone held high hopes for that one, even if Harry hadn't witnessed her last boyfriend die. > Hermione/Ron (Didn't they have what Ron considered a date?) Meri: I am not sure what you are refereing to here. I would not say at all that they are in love at this point. Ron is just begining to realize how he feels for her, as is Hermione for him, but they never had anything even remotely resembling a date. > Krum/Hermione (Ball) Meri: This is probably what JKR was refereing to about the being in love with the wrong people comment. > (I didn't count Fleur because all the guys liked Fleur) > > and > > 2) Doesn't Luna live near the Burrow? Does anyone else think that > she's going to join the trio this summer? Meri: A family called the Lovegoods live near the Burrow, but as Ron doesn't seem to know them well at all, and doesn't even know Luna is at school, then I would say that is highly doubltful. Meri From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:49:11 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:49:11 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: <20040621171112.77867.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > Paula now: > I'm not so sure about this. Harry's been conjuring a full Patronus for quite some time now, GEO: Yes so? He conjured the patronus with Lupin's help, but Voldemort has over forty years of experience with magic and the dark arts and was one of the brighter students trained by Hogwarts. Harry on the other hand is not. >plus, look what he's already done to LV when he was still an >infant. It took old Voldy a good 15 years (from Harry's infancy to >OotP) to return to full powers. Wouldn't sell Harry so short. > > ~Paula Gaon GEO: Except we know that he didn't do it. It was his mother's sacrifice that gave him the protection to defeat Voldemort. In short he didn't do anything and I for one don't think he has the ability to defeat Voldemort especially since Voldemort can even give such a powerful wizard like Dumbledore such a difficult time. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:59:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:59:04 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102310 [Lee]: Interesting thoughts. :-) I'm going to figure it's Dudley who ends up being magical, but part of me would rather see Petunia end up with it. I'm just gonna sit back and almost patiently wait for book six with fingers and toes crossed for good back stories. :-) vmonte responds: I would rather it be Petunia as well. Also, I wonder if little Mark Evans will do unfocused/uncontrolled magic against Dudley this summer? vivian From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 20:59:46 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621205946.27759.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102311 --- Ali wrote: > If Dudley isn't the person to produce magic in later > life, then > arguably it is Petunia. If Petunia is a Witch, does > she know she is? > Has she always known she is? Did she chose to avoid > the WW? My > personal belief is no: she sounds very jealous of > Lily. But of > course, she could be simply bitter. It's more than a > possibility > that her parents died because of Lily. Perhaps, but > unlikely, she > did discover she was a witch, but the whole idea of > the WW terrified > her, and then she was unable to comprehend why her > parents were so > proud of Lily: I don't believe that this fits with > the facts though. > I don't believe she would have sounded off at Harry > if she knew she > was a witch but had chosen not to go to Hogwarts. > Okay, I don't really think Petunia is a witch. But it seems obvious to me that their parents either favored Lily or Petunia thought they favored Lily (I'm personally suspect the former). So what if Petunia is older, and she got a letter? And she threw it away because she thought her parents would think her a freak, or just because she thought being away 9 months a year would make them favor Lily even more? Then Lily gets a letter. And their parents and thrilled and ecstatic and think their baby is so special. An already-bitter Petunia could get a lot more bitter in a hurry. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:06:49 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:06:49 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102312 > > Steve: > > I know that her home is near Aberfeldy, so maybe > > you can use that. I don't have my atlas handy and the cat is > sitting > > on my lap so I'm not going to go get it, but if that's also near > > Dufftown, you may be onto something... > Lady McBeth: If you draw a line west from Aberfeldy, you run right into Glencoe, where they filmed most of the scenery for POA . . . I wonder if someone didn't have some insight into where Hogwarts really is! The history of Glencoe would certainly fit in with Hogwarts History? Why? Well until the 15th century the title Lord of the Isles was held by the MacDonalds of Glencoe. Wouldn't it make sense for the rulers during what is called "the dark ages" by later Christians to have been witches and wizards? Followed immediately by "the burning times" or a persecution of former rulers? I know this is a stretch, but it felt like a good one. Additionally there's probably some falling down ramshakle castle or two, or what would like one to the muggle observer! From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:07:20 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:07:20 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102313 > > Steve: > > I know that her home is near Aberfeldy, so maybe > > you can use that. I don't have my atlas handy and the cat is > sitting > > on my lap so I'm not going to go get it, but if that's also near > > Dufftown, you may be onto something... > Lady McBeth: If you draw a line west from Aberfeldy, you run right into Glencoe, where they filmed most of the scenery for POA . . . I wonder if someone didn't have some insight into where Hogwarts really is! The history of Glencoe would certainly fit in with Hogwarts History? Why? Well until the 15th century the title Lord of the Isles was held by the MacDonalds of Glencoe. Wouldn't it make sense for the rulers during what is called "the dark ages" by later Christians to have been witches and wizards? Followed immediately by "the burning times" or a persecution of former rulers? I know this is a stretch, but it felt like a good one. Additionally there's probably some falling down ramshakle castle or two, or what would like one to the muggle observer! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:09:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:09:20 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > [Lee]: > Interesting thoughts. :-) > > I'm going to figure it's Dudley who ends up being magical, but part > of me would rather see Petunia end up with it. > > I'm just gonna sit back and almost patiently wait for book six with > fingers and toes crossed for good back stories. :-) > > > vmonte responds: > > I would rather it be Petunia as well. > Also, I wonder if little Mark Evans will do unfocused/uncontrolled > magic against Dudley this summer? > > vivian Alla: LOL! I want to see Petunia doing magic too, it will be nice to see that there is some reason of her hating the WW, but I still vote for Filtch. Why? I am not really sure. :o) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:20:11 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:20:11 -0000 Subject: Riddle me this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102315 ariadnedrue wrote: > I recently did a reread of PoA and GoF and one thing stuck out in my > mind that someone just made a comment on (Sorry couldn't find the > thread). JK stated that everyone in GoF was in love with the wrong > people. > > But did she mean in general or at the ball? > > If in general then we have: > > Harry/Cho > Hermione/Ron (Didn't they have what Ron considered a date?) > Krum/Hermione (Ball) > (I didn't count Fleur because all the guys liked Fleur) Del replies : I don't think she said that they would be in love, just that they would fall for the wrong people. Harry and Cho. Hermione and Viktor. Ron and Fleur. She does count, because she's the one that keeps making Ron blush, and she's the only one he asked to the Ball (he didn't mean to, but he still did). ariadnedrue wrote: > 2) Doesn't Luna live near the Burrow? Does anyone else think that > she's going to join the trio this summer? Del replies : What makes you so sure the Trio is going to spend the summer at the Burrow ;-) ? But she might still join the trio. And Neville too. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:27:26 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:27:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102316 saavi wrote: > Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe Ron will > turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do you think? Del replies : What about the other way around ? What about Harry turns against Ron because Hermione goes out with Ron and Harry is left alone ? Del From noj_ivob at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:10:44 2004 From: noj_ivob at yahoo.com (Noj_Ivob) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:10:44 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of > the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and > OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could > relate to. My thought is that the opening chapter of Book Six would show us the events at Godric's Hollow (i.e. the death of the Potters), perhaps leading to Harry coming to terms with the fact that he's the one in the prophecy. JKR does mention that several of the early drafts of the opening chapter of PS/SS showed this event, and since the opening chapter to Book Six is very similar to one of the discarded chapters from PS/SS it seems to fit. "Noj_Ivob" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:44:56 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:44:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102318 Gina wrote: > If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just > tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I > don't think you're ugly". Del : Maybe simply because Hermione doesn't have the emotional range of a teaspoon (not meaning that you do, mind you) and she realizes that Cho might very well be jealous of Harry and Hermione's close friendship. After all, her own boyfriend had exactly the same problem the year before. And Hermione also knows that the best way to tell a teenage girl that you like her is to tell her she's pretty, and inversely the best way to say that you don't like a girl is to say she's ugly. Hence the piece of advice. Gina wrote : > I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, but she likes Harry and he > is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. She wonders if Ron has > noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a response! Del replies : I'm not sure Hermione had realised that Ron didn't see her as a girl until his famous "Hermione, Neville's right, you're a girl !" I guess she just assumed that they both knew she was a girl, just like she knows they are boys. And just because one of the boys had a problem doesn't mean the other must have the same problem. In other words : Hermione has no reason to doubt that Harry sees her as a girl. Del From sarahlizzy at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 21:46:57 2004 From: sarahlizzy at hotmail.com (sarah_haining) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:46:57 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > GEO: Except we know that he didn't do it. It was his mother's > sacrifice that gave him the protection to defeat Voldemort. To go off on a slight tangent here, something always puzzled me about Harry's chat with Cho in OOTP about this subject. Unfortunately I don't have the books to hand so can't quote, but I'm pretty sure it was when the pair were in the Owlery. Harry was explaining to Cho that even with the training they were getting with DA, Cedric still never stood a chance against Voldemort. Cho pointed out that Harry survived when he was only a baby and Harry responds that NO ONE KNOWS WHY he survived. I don't know if I'm just being excessively dumb here but I thought we all knew exactly why Harry survived and Voldemort was defeated - his mothers sacrifice caused the curse to rebound on Voldemort. So why would Harry treat it as if it were still unexplained? Because he didn't want to get into that conversation with Cho? Can anyone clear this up? Cheers, Sarah From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 21:55:02 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:55:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions/comments about GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102320 >Meri: I actually don't want them to make GoF into a movie, for >several reasons. First off, too much will have to be cut. I've >allready heard that the Dursleys are being cut out, which will mean >that my fave scene in the book (when the Weasleys Floo to No. 4 and >get stuck in the fireplace) will not be there. I sympathize since it's your favorite scene, but I suspect they chose it to cut because they can remove the entire invitation/Dursley-Weasley interaction cleanly without interfering with further plot. Sort of the way they cut the entire Tom Bombadil section out of the Fellowship of the Rings in the film. >Meri: GoF is definately my fave. Order is the best book of all five, >but Goblet will always be my top. From the TT to the World Cup to >Crouch!Moody to Krum and Cedric and R and H's little thang...it's >just all good. And any time I read it I can never stop in the middle >of the last ten chapters. I cry whenever DD eulogizes Ced and people >think I am nuts. But yes, major props to GoF! I think PoA may be the *best* book (from a writing perspective), but GoF is *so* full of good parts ... the Quidditch World Cup ... the Amazing Bouncing Ferret ... and, as you say, the three-handkerchief parts at the end. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ From steve at hp-lexicon.org Mon Jun 21 22:02:46 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:02:46 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: <003c01c4575b$7b4c60a0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > To me, this is the saddest scene in all five books to date. I feel > heartbreakingly sad for Neville, even sadder than I do for Harry. This was the only time in the series that I actually cried, with the exception of chapter 12 of the first book, whenever I get the chance to read it aloud, and I read Harry's "Mum?" into the mirror. I suppose it could be just what it seems, a moment of pathos that only serves to remind us how horrible Voldemort and his supporters-- and more importantly, their philosophy--really is. But I share your curiosity. I am beginning to notice all through the books little bits and pieces being put into place, as if in preparation for something amazing in book seven. There are just so many loose ends, but not big obvious loose ends...little supposedly insignificant loose ends which just could rise up gloriously in that final moment to turn the tide. The Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers are just one such loose end. The House-Elves are another---think of the power that Dobby exhibits as he blasts Lucius down a flight of stairs and interferes with the magical barrier to platform 9 and 3/4. Think of Grawp, who has already once shown up at exactly the right time to save the moment. What about that snake that slithered away from the zoo? Where did it go? It's obviously on friendly terms with Harry. Might it fight Nagini at some point the way the film had Buckbeak intervene between H/H and the werewolf? Maybe all these loose ends won't turn up or be significant, but I can't imagine that they're all red herrings. After all, think how insignificant that silly old rat of Ron's was... Steve intrigued From tiggersong at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 22:02:40 2004 From: tiggersong at gmail.com (tiggersong) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:02:40 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102322 Okay. I've been tossing this idea around in my head since I read OotP the first time. Now, all of the Black House Elves are beheaded when they become too old to be useful ("too old or infirm to carry a tea tray" is a paraphrase of the line). I postulate that Kreacher was too old to be useful. He didn't do any cleaning. He wouldn't obey Sirius (the only remaining Black). (I don't remember any mention of Kreacher and tea trays, but I don't think he'd have been capable of holding one steady for the current inhabitants of Grimmauld Place.) So. Why not behead him? Everyone (except Hermione) ends up happy. Kreacher gets the highest honor he can perceive. Sirius doesn't have to listen to Kreacher's poison anymore. Molly can clean house without Kreacher getting in her way. They can all finally just nail the stupid curtains closed over the Old Bat and never have to listen to her again. Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? Kreacher's *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... put him out of his misery? What do you all think? Tiggersong From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 22:17:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:17:54 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiggersong" wrote: > Okay. I've been tossing this idea around in my head since I read > OotP the first time. > > Now, all of the Black House Elves are beheaded when they become too > old to be useful ("too old or infirm to carry a tea tray" is a > paraphrase of the line). > > I postulate that Kreacher was too old to be useful. He didn't do > any cleaning. He wouldn't obey Sirius (the only remaining Black). > (I don't remember any mention of Kreacher and tea trays, but I don't > think he'd have been capable of holding one steady for the current > inhabitants of Grimmauld Place.) > > So. > > Why not behead him? > > Everyone (except Hermione) ends up happy. > > Kreacher gets the highest honor he can perceive. Sirius doesn't > have to listen to Kreacher's poison anymore. Molly can clean house > without Kreacher getting in her way. They can all finally just nail > the stupid curtains closed over the Old Bat and never have to listen > to her again. > > Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? > Kreacher's *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... > put him out of his misery? > > What do you all think? > > Tiggersong I am ashamed to confess my ignorance but could you point me out to the mythology about Black Elves and beheadings? Sounds interesting. As to Kreacher, somehow I don't think that dying will be the best punishment for him. I'll have to come up with something more evil. :o) I don't know, how about tearing apart his mistress' portrait and him watching? :) Alla From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 22:24:45 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:24:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 102324 Hi all, The whole idea of house elves has bothered me ever since the first introduction in COS. It got even worse in GoF. Lines like Ron's saying that house elves are happy .... the whole attitude toward them has really bugged me. It seems so reminiscent of the slave masters in the South, who always said that the slaves were "happy" in there slavery. There were times in GoF that I could hardly stand to read Winky's parts, because of her attitude of sickening loyalty to a man who had owned her and treated her cruelly. I hope that JKR is going to take this further and have a major house elf revolt or something. In general, they are kind of obnoxious. I suppose that's not fair, because Dobby is sort of cute, and you can't really compare Winky and kreacher to him. But they seem to be another part of the running theme of certain types being oppressed or looked down on by wizards. Anyway, I was just curious if anyone had as visceral a reaction to the whole story line of house elves as I do. Sherry G From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 21 23:03:29 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:03:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading? References: Message-ID: <001701c457e3$f85ec690$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102325 > I am ashamed to confess my ignorance but could you point me out to > the mythology about Black Elves and beheadings? Sounds interesting. > Alla > All scenes copied from OOP, Canadian Ediction. chapter four: Pressing her finger to her lips, she led him on tiptoe past a pair of long, moth-eaten curtains, behind which Harry supposed there must be another door, and after skirting a large umbrella stand that looked as though it had been made from a severed troll's leg they started up the dark staircase, passing a row of shrunken heads mounted on plaques on the wall. A closer look showed Harry that the heads belonged to house-elves. All of them had the same rather snout-like nose. chapter six: "... and dear Aunt Elladora ... she started the family tradition of beheading house-elves when they got too old to carry tea trays ..." Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 21 23:07:41 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:07:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] house elves References: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <001c01c457e4$8e443050$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102326 > Anyway, I was just curious if anyone had as visceral a reaction to the whole > story line of house elves as I do. > > Sherry G I completely agree with you that the portrayal of house elves in the books is reminiscent of real life slavery, but I think JKR knows exactly what she's doing with it. You can see it in the lines of Mr. Weasley when he tells Hermione that he agrees with her (but it's not the time or place to discuss house elf rights), then of Sirius in book four who says Hermione has the measure of Crouch better than Ron because she looked at how he treats his inferiors. Then in book five, Harry notices how the Fountain Of Magical Brethren portrays the wizard and witch as over-the-top perfect thus ending in a rather silly look while the creatures look far more subservient than they really are (in the case of centaurs and goblins). Then at the very end, DD tells Harry that Sirius didn't hate Kreatcher, but despised him and wouldn't take him seriously (as a threat or otherwise). So, I think JKR is showing us a clear line of wizarding behaviour that the more sensible wizards understand to be wrong and even damaging to the welfare of their society, while the mainstream culture and government refuse to see beyond the tips of their noses. Alina. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 23:25:10 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:25:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102327 >>> Gina wrote: > If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I don't think you're ugly". I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, but she likes Harry and he is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. She wonders if Ron has noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a response! <<< Bren now: I think it was mentioned in one of the posts here (or some other HP sites, can't remember) that JKR thought it obvious that it will be Hermione-Ron. As for Harry... according to my friend (a newly- converted HP fan), JKR said that Harry ends up with someone mentioned in PS/SS. I firmly believe in Harry-Ginny ship, but my friend thinks it'll be Susan Bones. An interesting thought and not too unlikely since she also lost most of her familes to LV and her aunt had saved Harry from tight spot. Bren, who is now off the moderating-status and happy to see her message posted on time!! Endless thanks to all the elves who had to put up with posts full of mistakes From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Mon Jun 21 23:28:07 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:28:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102328 Tiggersong wrote: Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? Kreacher's *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... put him out of his misery? Lady Macbeth wrote: Personally, I agree with you. However, there are many who would not, and I am certain that Jo is one of them. In writing OotP, she made a very vivid point about what Harry and Co. thought of the elf heads on the wall. That suggests that it's also how she (as the writer) feels. Yes, it WOULD be the humane thing for him. But, we also live in a society that believes the "humane" thing to do is to let terminal patients wither away under chemicals and cancer, or stay a living vegetable that can't act or react to anyone around them, or live off of a machine that they would die in two minutes without. There are even some people who are that way with pets - my husband is one of them. He let his dog suffer from deteriorating old age and complications that go with it (she couldn't walk without pain, had little control over her bladder, puked up the most foul-smelling liquid every time she tried to eat), until after the vet tried a dozen different meds on her and she was still declining. She was only a couple hours away from dying on her own when he finally agreed to have her put to sleep. For some, humane is letting a person or creature (or Kreacher) suffer on in life with the hope that they will some day "get better". That's the route that I'm afraid is going to be in store for Kreacher in these books - after all, even Dumbledore, who's lived so long that he should know better, wouldn't see Kreacher dead for any reason, even if it were just to put him out of his misery. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 23:50:04 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:50:04 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102329 Just a few good posts that I would like to pass on: What is the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory? This particular theory grew out of a thread of posts starting with, to the best of my knowledge, Bluesqueak's post # 39662 The Spying Game In following the thread you will notice that a poster, Marinafrants post # 39751 actually gave the magic dishwasher its name, which means: Myseterious Agendas Generate Interesting Conclusion: Dumbledore Is Secretely Hatching Ways to Assure Superiority for Harry in the Emerging Resolution The next post is about the Knight2King theory which was one that had been pointed out by nkafkafi in referring to a post she had written some time before about Time Travel #88636 and 88794; the original link found in the Time Travel post is no longer accessible but below is another link to the site of the Knight2King theory: http://www.knight2king.net/Knight2King/Personal58.html The last poster is my personal favorite; she goes by the name Talisman. Again someone (I wish I could remember who) in one of his or her posts gave a reference to her post #66983 about Guilty DD, very good points in this post. Also Talisman almost always refers you to another post that is equally as good as her own which is very helpful and almost always thought provoking. Just thought this may be helpful to anyone new to the group. Snow From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 00:07:18 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:07:18 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: <001701c457e3$f85ec690$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102330 > > Alla > > > All scenes copied from OOP, Canadian Ediction. > > chapter four: > Pressing her finger to her lips, she led him on tiptoe past a pair of long, > moth-eaten curtains, behind which Harry supposed there must be another door, > and after skirting a large umbrella stand that looked as though it had been > made from a severed troll's leg they started up the dark staircase, passing > a row of shrunken heads mounted on plaques on the wall. A closer look showed > Harry that the heads belonged to house-elves. All of them had the same > rather snout-like nose. > > chapter six: > "... and dear Aunt Elladora ... she started the family tradition of > beheading house-elves when they got too old to carry tea trays ..." > > Alina. Sirius said those words in Chapter six and the tone I took was that he didn't agree with the tradition, even for a vile thing like Kreacher. And even if he did -- I think he didn't -- but even if he did, I doubt the other Order members would have allowed it. I agree, it would have solved a LOT of problems. :) Darrin -- Aunt Elladora. Good name for a band. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:16:07 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:16:07 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: <40D702F3.791.15BFC6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Any location I choose is going to be somewhat arbitrary, of course > - but I have to choose somewhere, so I'm looking for anything > potentially identifying. > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html Asian_Lovr2: Try looking in - Speculative Geography: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links/Speculative_Geograph_000972354701/ For likely Hogwarts locations- http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm These are based on geographic remoteness; lack of near-by towns,roads, and rail, and references implied in the book that indicate that Hogwarts is far north. In the distant past some one did a astronomical analysis of various reference to sighting star and the moon in the latest book. In that we determined the coordinates of the areas marked on my maps. I'm trying to search that information out, but haven't found it yet. (Not sure which group it was in, or who all was involved.) If you need coordinates for any place, email me with the place names and I can look them up on my computer/CD-ROM maps very quickly. Don't know it that helps. Steve From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 00:16:46 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:16:46 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102332 >>> Sherry G: The whole idea of house elves has bothered me ever since the first introduction in COS. It got even worse in GoF. Lines like Ron's saying that house elves are happy .... the whole attitude toward them has really bugged me. It seems so reminiscent of the slave masters in the South, who always said that the slaves were "happy" in there slavery. There were times in GoF that I could hardly stand to read Winky's parts, because of her attitude of sickening loyalty to a man who had owned her and treated her cruelly. I hope that JKR is going to take this further and have a major house elf revolt or something. In general, they are kind of obnoxious. I suppose that's not fair, because Dobby is sort of cute, and you can't really compare Winky and kreacher to him. But they seem to be another part of the running theme of certain types being oppressed or looked down on by wizards. <<< Bren now: Err, the whole issue of house elf is an iffy subject I think. AFter all, we really don't know whether house elves have been created to serve wizards or just brainwashed. Dobby bothered me a little in the beginning of CoS when he got Harry in trouble. Dobby absolutely adores HArry yet he kept making loud noises even if Harry asked him not to. Does he *not* know what is appropriate and inapporiate in certain curcumstances? I like Dobby now of course; I think he is setting a great example for other house elves (and more of them will follow Dobby's footsteps if they had been brainwashed indeed.) Except for his foot fetish, haha . Now Winky is a different story. I really can't sympathize with her. Yes, her intention is honourable and she is extremely faithful, but she pretty much helped Voldemort come back! Her blinded loyalty to Barty Croush Jr was just too sickening. She had to know what her master's ultimate plan was. Did she not know that she was assisting in Voldemort's reign of horror? From Dobby in CoS, house elves were afraid of VM as well. She couldn't think for herself like Dobby, and that really upsets me. And as for Kreacher... I wonder where he is now? Still at Grimmauld Place or perhaps at Narcissa's? I wonder how much information regarding the Order he has divulged? Why didn't Sirius just get rid of him in the first place? Questions, questions, questions... >>> Sherry G: Anyway, I was just curious if anyone had as visceral a reaction to the whole story line of house elves as I do. <<< Bren: Hehehe, for starter, Hermione does :) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 00:28:59 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:28:59 -0000 Subject: Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102333 Hi all, I just have a couple of questions about something that has puzzled me for a while now: (1) How reliable is the use of Pensieve in wizarding court/trials? I was wondering the possibility of HArry reserving his memories of Dementors attack in Privet Drive and showing that at his hearing. Maybe it is reliable when proving the Hear-Say type of evidence? What skills does it take to be able to use Pensieve? Also, can a wizard alter his/her memories before reserving them in Pensieve? (2) How does one acquire a Magic Eye? Even the greatest Wizard of modern time Dumbledore doesn't have it (the Leaving Fest at the end of GoF) and it clearly has its advantages, helping Barty Crouch Jr outsmart DD himself. Do you think it is a Dark Art? Then perhaps Voldemort has a pair of blue-electic buzzing eyes too? Any thoughts/idess/suggestions? Bren From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:31:46 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:31:46 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102334 Sarah wrote: I don't know if I'm just being excessively dumb here but I thought we all knew exactly why Harry survived and Voldemort was defeated - his mothers sacrifice caused the curse to rebound on Voldemort. So why would Harry treat it as if it were still unexplained? Because he didn't want to get into that conversation with Cho? Can anyone clear this up? vmonte responds: Dumbledore says the same thing in the begining of SS/PS. That they may never know exactly what happened on that night (when he is talking to MM in front of the Dursley house). I think that they understand that Lily somehow protected Harry, but they are not sure of the exact events that led up to it. I'm guessing that DD knows that Lily saved Harry with an old spell because Snape told him. How else would he even know that much? Does that mean that Snape was there? Or did a painting at the house tell DD? vivian - I'm confused even more now... From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 00:42:04 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:42:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye References: Message-ID: <008201c457f1$bdfe9710$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102335 > (1) How reliable is the use of Pensieve in wizarding court/trials? I > was wondering the possibility of HArry reserving his memories of > Dementors attack in Privet Drive and showing that at his hearing. > Maybe it is reliable when proving the Hear-Say type of evidence? > What skills does it take to be able to use Pensieve? Also, can a > wizard alter his/her memories before reserving them in Pensieve? > Bren > Actually, I think that the Pensieve wouldn't be reliable enough. It seems to me of the family of magic to which Occlumency and Legilimency also belong. Now we know that Voldemort was able to "fabricate" a memory and let somebody else access it (or force it on somebody else) through a kind of Legilimency/Occlumency over distance bond. So, I suspect, that it's actually possible to feed fake and fabricated memories into the Pensieve as well. By the way, to me that also means that it's possible the memories Harry saw in Snape and in his pensieve weren't a hundred percent true either. alina. From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jun 21 21:48:51 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:48:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102336 saavi wrote: > > Hermione could become an issue between Harry and Ron, maybe > > Ron will turn against Harry, at least for some time. What do > > you think? Del replies: > What about the other way around? What about Harry turns against > Ron because Hermione goes out with Ron and Harry is left alone? Actually, this already happened at the beginning of OoTP, although it was in a completely non-shippy way. Harry was indeed angry with both Ron and Hermione for being cooped up together and leaving him alone... although he had passed thru a pretty traumatic experience and even Dumbledore agreed that sticking him in Privet Drive without any news of the Wizarding World was a grave mistake. Having recently lost someone myself, I can guarantee that at the end of OOTP Harry WANTS to be left alone. He has too many issues to work on himself than to care if his best friends are dating (unless he discovers he has romantic feelings for Hermione, or even Ron!). However, as proven in PoA and GoF and even in OoTP, we can be sure that even if Hermione dates Ron, she will never leave Harry alone, even if he wants her to. Anasazi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:49:09 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:49:09 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: <001701c457e3$f85ec690$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > I am ashamed to confess my ignorance but could you point me out to > > the mythology about Black Elves and beheadings? Sounds interesting. > > > Alla > > > All scenes copied from OOP, Canadian Ediction. > > chapter four: > Pressing her finger to her lips, she led him on tiptoe past a pair of long, > moth-eaten curtains, behind which Harry supposed there must be another door, > and after skirting a large umbrella stand that looked as though it had been > made from a severed troll's leg they started up the dark staircase, passing > a row of shrunken heads mounted on plaques on the wall. A closer look showed > Harry that the heads belonged to house-elves. All of them had the same > rather snout-like nose. > > chapter six: > "... and dear Aunt Elladora ... she started the family tradition of > beheading house-elves when they got too old to carry tea trays ..." > > Alina. Thanks, Alina. Talk about me rereading only my favourite pieces from OoP. I absolutely forgot about this canon information. I thought that was some other mythology unrelated to canon. :o) Thanks again! Alla From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jun 21 21:56:05 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:56:05 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <004e01c457cb$81073f90$a11ba8c0@KIMBERLY> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102338 Gina: > If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just > tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I > don't think you're ugly". I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, > but she likes Harry and he is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. > She wonders if Ron has noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a > response!>> I actually did the exact same thing with a friend of mine around five years ago. I had a bit of a crush on him (albeit childish), but he had a bit of a crush on another girl. He was telling me about a conversation they had in which she had mentioned that I seemed to be more like a girlfriend than a best friend, because we were always together and we spoke on the phone and we took care of each other, bla bla bla. Now, I remember I told him exactly how to explain to her that we were just very good friends (although I did want to be more than friends.) And here's the freaky part... wanting to know what he thought of me physically, I remember I told him to tell her that there could never be anything between us because he thought I was "ugly" And I remember him replying immediately that he couldn't say that cause I wasn't ugly. (ring a bell?) Now, I know my friend didn't have feelings for me at that time, but I had feelings for him... and I said the "ugly" comment because I was fishing for answers to see how he felt about me. Since I read that convo I have no doubt Hr has feelings for H, although what Harry feels is another thing entirely. Anasazi From ariana at astele.co.uk Mon Jun 21 22:04:24 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:04:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621220143.CLMR24958.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 102339 From: Ali > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of > the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and > OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could > relate to. > Ariana: My immediate thought when I read that was that it would be a flashback either to the night Harry's parents died (a more complete flashback than what we've already seen), or to the events leading up to it. Or possibly something to do with the Order. Given the importance of the Marauders in PoA and OotP, I assumed that it was something to do with their generation, as that would explain why the same scene wasn't considered for CoS or GoF. But I suppose the only way to find out is to wait and see... And speculate in the meantime, of course. Ariana --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004 From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 22:25:14 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:25:14 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102340 Jen Reese wrote: > I like this idea--add in Hestia Jones or Dorcas Meadows with > Alice and Luna's mom, and Lily may have had her own group of > friends and allies! That would be a very powerful group from > what little we know so far: Lily the charms expert, Alice the > Auror, Hestia or Dorcas the transfiguration experts perhaps, > and Ms. Lovegood as the mysterious DOM ally? (more snip) Nadine : Alice the Auror ? I just reread GoF and I noticed this detail in The Pensieve scene (DDore speaking) : ?Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents. (...) His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for informations about Voldemort's whereabouts, etc.? Where is it mentionned that Alice was an Auror ? In OotP ? I don't have OotP with me (on loan). Can someone refresh my memory ? Merci d'avance ! Nadine ;-) From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 23:19:26 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:19:26 -0400 Subject: house elves References: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <0a6301c457e6$31fb8bc0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102341 That's all very well, Hermione's good intentions to help with the house elf situation, but what if Ron has a point? Maybe he's being way too complacent, but what if there is something to what he says? Remember, house elves do have their own brand of magic, and, I suppose when push comes to shove, they know how to use it. What if they do live to serve? Now, poor Winky has really been abused most horribly, and she can't be the only case, but what if Ron's just a little bit right? How do you work it so both elves and wizards have a win-win situation? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:59:24 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:59:24 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Tiggersong wrote: > Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? Kreacher's > *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... put him out of his > misery? > > Lady Macbeth wrote: > Personally, I agree with you. However, there are many who would not, and I > am certain that Jo is one of them. In writing OotP, she made a very vivid > point about what Harry and Co. thought of the elf heads on the wall. That > suggests that it's also how she (as the writer) feels. Yes, it WOULD be the > humane thing for him. But, we also live in a society that believes the > "humane" thing to do is to let terminal patients wither away under chemicals > and cancer, or stay a living vegetable that can't act or react to anyone > around them, or live off of a machine that they would die in two minutes > without. There are even some people who are that way with pets - my husband > is one of them. snip. Alla: If I knew that Kreacher did not want to die, I would most definitely support his beheading for his betrayal of Sirius. ( No, I DO NOT support death penalty in real life, in fact I am strongly against it. :o)) Die, Kreacher, die. :) But as I said I think it will be too easy for him. From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 23:23:29 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:23:29 -0000 Subject: His what ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102343 Hello ! I never thought I would start a thread but I just posted on the ?Did Lily have any girl friends ? ? one and while I have my GoF book on my lap, I might as well ask about something that has been bothering me since my last rerererereading of the book yesterday. I rummaged (I really did ! ) through the posts and did not find anything about what is, to me at least, a mystery. In the chapter entitled ?The Madness of Mr Crouch?, when Harry and Krum encounter Mr Crouch Senior, there is a little bit of interesting dialogue going on. The text says that Mr Crouch's eyes rolled forwards onto Harry and... Mr Crouch : ?Who... you ?? he whispered. Harry : ?I'm a student at the school?. Here, Harry looks around at Krum for some help but Krum is hanging back, looking extremely nervous. Mr Crouch : ?You're not... HIS ?? says he, his mouth sagging. The emphasis on the word ?his? is mine ! Nevertheless, in the book it is printed in italic. Harry : ?No.? Without the faintest idea what Crouch (is) talking about. Mr Crouch : ?Dumbledore's ?? Harry : ?That's right.? Dumbledore's what ? His what ? What or who is Mr Crouch talking about ? I don't know whether it is because of the importance of father-son relationships in the book (the Crouchs, the Riddles, the Longbottoms, the Potters, etc.) or whether it is because yesterday was Father's Day but I can not help to think that Crouch meant his... SON. Dumbledore's son ! Is it far fetched ? And who could that be ? Is it because Mr Crouch is struggling with his words that he says ?Who... you ??. Did he meant to say ?Who ARE you ?? or ?Who... YOU ! I recognize YOU, Harry Potter ?? Merci ! Nadine (who, once again, apologizes for her weirdly written english. It is not her mother's tong but she loves speaking, reading and writing it nonetheless with the assistance of her dictionaries and all...) ;-) From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 22 01:02:36 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:02:36 -0000 Subject: Lily's "ancient magic"(was: Re: Harry'sPowers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Sarah wrote: > I think that they understand that Lily somehow protected Harry, but > they are not sure of the exact events that led up to it. I'm > guessing that DD knows that Lily saved Harry with an old spell > because Snape told him. How else would he even know that much? Does > that mean that Snape was there? Or did a painting at the house tell > DD? > > vivian - I'm confused even more now... imaomommy: I was giving some thought today to why it were even a remote possibility that Voldemort would spare Lily, and I kept coming around to the idea that he would not kill her because one of his supporters wanted her alive. Snape seems the obvious one, IMO. Far from seeing Voldy as a bleeding heart, I figure he might have had ulterior motives in this, too, such as wanting to force her to submit to entering his service, or simply making her the spoils of war, but I wonder if this event is what changed Snape's allegiance. Also, does DD say she used a spell? I thought he said "ancient magic", and I never assumed a spell was needed to invoke the protection he speaks of. DD may well have deduced what happened on his own, or may have gotten the events from a witness (cough!Snape), but I don't think she had to do anything but offer to take Harry's place. I was thinking about things from the new film, too, and wondering what bearing the speech Lupin gives, about Lily being there for him when noone else was, might have on future development. The books to date never indicate that the two of them were that close, so I wonder if that's movie contamination or foreshadowing. imamommy who may as well be hanged for a dragon as an egg From vnagata at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 00:24:17 2004 From: vnagata at hotmail.com (fiber_poet) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:24:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102345 Hi, I am new here and, having read the extensive guidelines to posting, I hope I am doing this right. So, I am starting with a brief introduction and following with my comments on the SHIP topic of conversation. I am 35 and have been a huge HP fan right from the beginning (using my son - only a baby at the time LOL - as an "excuse" to be reading the Sorcerer's Stone). Now, I'm delighted to say, that once baby is now reading Azkaban and he and his younger brother have been watching the movies with me and love it. Now I don't use them as an excuse anymore, but enjoy sharing HP with them. Anyway, on to the topic ... My feeling about the Ron/Hermione/Harry triangle is this: Ron and Hermione have a close friendship as well as a mutual attraction and because of this friendship they feel funny about their attraction and don't know what (if anything) they want to do about their feelings. Harry, on the other hand, only feels about Hermione as a friend (maybe even like the sister he never had) and Hermione the same about Harry. But because girls mature faster than boys and she's more intellectual (thinks way too much on things sometimes), Hermione may be confused about her feelings about Harry (can girls and boys actually be just close friends?). I don't believe Harry and Hermione will end up together - maybe they will have a brief fling, but it won't last and they will always remain the closest of friends. I mean, we're talking about teenagers here, so relationship experimentation (and confusion) is to be expected, but Hermione and Harry just seem to be better friends than anything else. As for Ron and Hermione ... well it could go either way (it's all in JKR's hands). I think it would be great if they end up together, but then again there is a school full of students and maybe there are another boy and girl meant for them. Victoria From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 01:06:51 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:06:51 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves In-Reply-To: <0a6301c457e6$31fb8bc0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <013401c457f5$377e13b0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 102346 That's all very well, Hermione's good intentions to help with the house elf situation, but what if Ron has a point? Maybe he's being way too complacent, but what if there is something to what he says? Remember, house elves do have their own brand of magic, and, I suppose when push comes to shove, they know how to use it. What if they do live to serve? Now, poor Winky has really been abused most horribly, and she can't be the only case, but what if Ron's just a little bit right? How do you work it so both elves and wizards have a win-win situation? June Sherry You don't. Slavery is wrong and house elves are slaves. If that ends up being right in these books, then everything else in them has been a lie. We're seeing all this from Harry's point of view. We're taught it's bad to hate muggles or muggle borns, it's bad to hate werewolves, to judge them simply because they are a werewolf--or a giant or half-giant. You can't then turn around and tell me--and I mean the person telling the story, not you, June--that it's ok to enslave a magical race. If wizards and elves need a win-win situation, then elves can work and be paid. Hmmm. Guess I sound little like Hermione, don't I? Sherry From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 01:06:37 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:06:37 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Tiggersong wrote: > Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? Kreacher's > *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... put him out of his > misery? > > Lady Macbeth wrote: > Personally, I agree with you. However, there are many who would not, and I > am certain that Jo is one of them. In writing OotP, she made a very vivid > point about what Harry and Co. thought of the elf heads on the wall. That > suggests that it's also how she (as the writer) feels. Yes, it WOULD be the > humane thing for him. > SNIP > -Lady Macbeth Add me to the list that would have Kreachers head as a door stop for the kitchen door and a nice big tea tray mounted to his neck and shoulders to form a nice table for a corner of the drawing room. :-) I'd also have Winky carted off to St Mungo's pet ward for some long term care. (Apologies to Neville) My verdict on Kreacher only comes after he betrayed the order. Before then I'd have done my best to make friends with him. Jason From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 01:07:32 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:07:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves References: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> <0a6301c457e6$31fb8bc0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <00a101c457f5$4c7e0db0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102348 While I think that Hermione's intentions are good, I don't agree with her methods. Her trying to trick the house elves into freedom (fruitfully because I think the only DD counts as the master) is an attitude not much different from the rest of the wizarding world, she doesn't seem to care what they think. In fact, I don't think Hermione cares about them at all, she only cares about the idea. And once more she's not thinking things through. What will happen to the freed elves, with no house, no place to go? Is she going to take them all in? DD will probably agree to pay them, but what about the headmasters after him? She seems to think that as soon as they're freed, all house elves will turn into Dobbies and that Winky is a house elf freak. But what if they're all Winkies? How will she handle hundreds of hysterical house elves? However, I do believe that House Elf enslavement should and will eventually end. I explain how it started with Dobby's words, "Dobby likes being free, sir, but Dobby likes work more." I see the HEs as a race that is naturally predisposed to enjoy being busy, creating, being useful, working. And I think that wizards ended up exploiting those traits and developing them into full blown slavery. Alina. P.S. to any other Final Fantasy fans out there: did the word "moogle" ever come to mind? ^^ From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Tue Jun 22 01:36:54 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:36:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves In-Reply-To: <013401c457f5$377e13b0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102349 Sherry wrote: You don't. Slavery is wrong and house elves are slaves. If that ends up being right in these books, then everything else in them has been a lie. We're seeing all this from Harry's point of view. We're taught it's bad to hate muggles or muggle borns, it's bad to hate werewolves, to judge them simply because they are a werewolf--or a giant or half-giant. You can't then turn around and tell me--and I mean the person telling the story, not you, June--that it's ok to enslave a magical race. If wizards and elves need a win-win situation, then elves can work and be paid. Hmmm. Guess I sound little like Hermione, don't I? Lady Macbeth replied: Except that elves of various kinds, but particularly those who linger around human habitations, have a long history of doing work for no pay. Ever heard of brownies? They weren't always the little girls in brown uniforms that sell cookies. The elves and the shoemaker? That story almost certainly lended itself to Jo's "house elves". They worked tirelessly for the shoemaker because he was worrying and working himself to exhaustion trying to keep up with his work. When the shoemaker and his wife discovered what the elves had been doing, they made little clothes and shoes and left them out for the elves. The elves took the clothes and then bam - they were off like a prom dress. Now, according to the story, the elves were overjoyed to have the clothes, dancing and prancing about, and the shoemaker and his wife were thrilled that they were so happy. But, if the elves had done the work for the pay off, wouldn't they have come back and done more work, hoping to get more things? Even Dobby's not working for pay. He REFUSED the amount of money that would have been "pay" because it was more than he needed to buy his knitting supplies. And what did he do with those supplies? Made socks to give to the humans around him. His needs of food, shelter and companionship were covered by his "place of employment" as are all elves. He doesn't seem inclined to leave Hogwarts and find his own place. He won't accept money that could be banked or used excessively on himself in any way. He's using his money and his freedom to BETTER SERVE THOSE HUMANS AROUND HIM. Yes, some house elves are slaves. Slavery is being kept against one's will doing things that one does not want to do. Dobby was a slave to Lucius Malfoy. He didn't agree with Malfoy's plans or the orders that he was being given or how he was being treated. Dobby as a SERVANT at Hogwarts is perfectly happy. Winky is a heartbreaking case of someone who's spent their life and loyalty attached to one family and then suddenly lost all of it. I'm certain she DID NOT care about Voldemort or whether or not he came back. She loved both Crouch Jr and Crouch Sr and was unendingly loyal to them no matter what they did or what goals they had. She's the wife who keeps going back to the abusive husband or the mother who hides her son despite his being guilty and wanted for felony manslaughter. We may characterize it as "weak" or "illogical" or any other word we have for that which we don't understand, but the attachment is still there. Bonds of love, loyalty and attachment don't end with people who are "good". I'm certain that Winky spends most of her time drunk because she doesn't want to feel, think, or even live any more, but between Dumbledore and the other house elves, she's not given any choice. The only problem I personally have with the house elves' situation are those who AREN'T happy with where they are and are mistreated by their masters. The house elves at Hogwarts are happy, otherwise they'd have taken Hermione's hats and run while they had the chance. The house elves at the Malfoys may or may not be happy, but they are being mistreated, some probably more than others. Winky was being mistreated in Crouch's care, but she was happy there. The "win-win" situation would be in turning around the HUMANS' attitude toward house elves - making laws and restrictions regarding the care and treatment of house elves. I'm of the firm belief that ALL creatures deserve the same or better care than we give ourselves. However, there are people on this planet who think otherwise, and hold an unending contempt for others, particularly those they see as their inferiors - thus the need for legislation to prevent abusive behavior. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 22 01:45:16 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:45:16 -0000 Subject: Riddle me this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > If in general then we have: > > > > Harry/Cho > > Hermione/Ron (Didn't they have what Ron considered a date?) > > Krum/Hermione (Ball) > > (I didn't count Fleur because all the guys liked Fleur) > > Del replies : > I don't think she said that they would be in love, just that they > would fall for the wrong people. > Harry and Cho. > Hermione and Viktor. > Ron and Fleur. She does count, because she's the one that keeps making > Ron blush, and she's the only one he asked to the Ball (he didn't mean > to, but he still did). There's also Hagrid and Madame Maxine. And maybe also Draco and Pansy Parkinson, though they're drawn rather sketchily, so I'm not sure if they're really an "item", but they seem to be paired up a lot. Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 22 01:54:42 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:54:42 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <20040621200625.26187.qmail@web60109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > delwynmarch wrote: > I, Del, wrote : > > How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? > > owlery2003 comments: > > Lots of examples throughout the books - the few that leap to mind are the "oversight" of slyth quidditch team members hexing the gryffindors (despite numerous witnesses), the "no marks for you" approach in potions (repeatedly), the override of wood's booking the quidditch pitch for practice (admittedly minor), the automatic detentions and points against ron/harry when they held neville back from launching into malfoy . . . wish I had more time to remember more! > > Well, I think this is starting to cheapen the word "abuse". I don't count as abuse just anything that makes a child unhappy. Abuse to me is akin to torture, either mental or physical. None of these things that Snape does is anything like that level of cruelty. He's more like a boot camp instructor, making it hard for his students, and taking a perverse pride in being so tough. When Hermione gets good marks in Potions, you know it MEANS something. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:01:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:01:04 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < snip. > Well, I think this is starting to cheapen the word "abuse". I don't > count as abuse just anything that makes a child unhappy. Abuse to > me is akin to torture, either mental or physical. None of these > things that Snape does is anything like that level of cruelty. He's > more like a boot camp instructor, making it hard for his students, > and taking a perverse pride in being so tough. When Hermione gets > good marks in Potions, you know it MEANS something. Alla: And when Neville is afraid of Snape more than anything else in the world, it means something too. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 22 02:06:02 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:06:02 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: >> The only problem I personally have with the house elves' situation are those > who AREN'T happy with where they are and are mistreated by their masters. > The house elves at Hogwarts are happy, otherwise they'd have taken > Hermione's hats and run while they had the chance. The house elves at the > Malfoys may or may not be happy, but they are being mistreated, some > probably more than others. Winky was being mistreated in Crouch's care, but > she was happy there. The "win-win" situation would be in turning around the > HUMANS' attitude toward house elves - making laws and restrictions regarding > the care and treatment of house elves. I'm of the firm belief that ALL > creatures deserve the same or better care than we give ourselves. However, > there are people on this planet who think otherwise, and hold an unending > contempt for others, particularly those they see as their inferiors - thus > the need for legislation to prevent abusive behavior. > > -Lady Macbeth imamommy: Hermione's attitude on the subjuect of house elves seems to me to be not accounting for the whole picture. Her methods only offend and infuriate the elves. My theory is that there is a logical reason behind the way that house elves serve humans. I think there is a piece of missing backstory here that would clarify why things are the way they are. I find it especially interesting that Hagrid defends the "eslavement" of the elves. If anyone were to speak up for these creatures, I would expect it to be him. And DD says that Kreacher is "bound by the enchantments of his kind" (I'm not sure if that's the exact quote, butI think it's pretty close). It seems to me that there is something besides mean wizards that keep house elves working for wizards. imamommy > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:08:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:08:52 -0000 Subject: Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye In-Reply-To: <008201c457f1$bdfe9710$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102355 Alina: snip. > By the way, to me that also means that it's possible the memories Harry saw > in Snape and in his pensieve weren't a hundred percent true either. > Alla: I wish so much that we would know for sure how reliable Pensieve is. it was argued both ways that it could objectively record information or give memories the subjective colour of the person who has the said memories. I wonder what would Pensieve scene looked like in James' or Sirius' Pensieves. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 02:26:13 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:26:13 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > And when Neville is afraid of Snape more than anything else in the > world, it means something too. "K": I think it does also. But what? That Snape is just mean or is there a reason that we don't know of yet for Neville to be afraid of Snape? I think this is another case of not having enough information. "K" From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:26:38 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: <1087863471.57883.42305.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040622022638.60577.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102357 Tiggersong wrote: Sure, it's taking a life. But wouldn't it also be a kindness? Kreacher's *not* happy at all. Wouldn't it be kinder to him to ... put him out of his misery? What do you all think? Tyler responds: Kindness? From Kreacher's perspective, yes. But I don't think that quite justifies it from an ethical standpoint. I'm really not sure what could have been done to make K's existence happier. Maybe if Sirius had just set him free before he learned what the Order was up to? I think he would have been overjoyed not to have to wait on Sirius. Or, failing that, maybe Sirius could have administered a cheering charm or two daily to keep him in a good mood? Tyler ===== Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the glass as half-full. I see the glass as too big. ~ George Carlin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:29:02 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:29:02 -0000 Subject: How could Harry believe in the Dream ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102358 > > Del replies : > > But Harry has been dreaming of that corridor for a whole year now ! > > Do you truly think that each time Harry dreams of it, LV actually > > goes in the MoM, down in the DoM, through the doors, down the alley > > in the Prophecy Room, each time a bit further but never to the end? > > I don't think so. ... those dreams are NOT about *realtime* events. > Asian_Lovr2: > > They are 'realtime' in the sense that the coincide with the real times > when Voldemort is obsessively thinking about the Dept of Mysteries and > mentally planning his attack on that Department. So the realtime event > isn't Voldemort being in the D.O.M. but Voldemort very deep in thought > /about/ being in the D.O.M. Annemehr: Another thing is that Voldemort *must have actually been in that corridor* at some time in order for Harry to get an accurate picture of it through the scar connection. I wonder if LV had ever been there before Godric's Hollow, or if he first reconnoitered it after his reembodiment. Perhaps the first time Harry had that dream, it actually coincided with LV's first visit to that corridor (and I would conjecture that LV himself had got no further at that point). > Asian_Lovr2: > Note that, his dream about Arthur's attack wasn't much different from > the standard dream except he felt different, he felt like a snake. > But, until the EVENT of Mr. Weasley's attack, it was, as I said > before, just a dream about a place and his (Harry's) presents there. > When Mr. Weasley was attack, the dream was vitally and significantly > changed; it became an event. A real and realtime event. > > That event, Mr Weasley's attack, was the authorial prelude to Sirius's > apparent attack. That event set Harry up to believe the second attack > on Sirius was just as real. Annemehr: That's a very good point. Harry, in his panicked state, would be very ready to believe this was another of the same kind of attack, even though a cooler head would have wondered about all those interrupted dreams. Since you brought up Mr. Weasley's attack, I read it again. I am surprised to see that there is no indication that Harry recongnises it as taking place in *the* corridor of his other dreams, although it does mention Arthur sitting "in front of a door at the end of the corridor..." Then, in OoP ch. 24, during the first Occlumency lesson, when Harry had a vision of Arthur taking him to his MoM hearing, he *finally* recognises the corridor of his recurring dream as the one they ran through that morning *and* the one in which Arthur was attacked. "He had been dreaming about a windowless corridor ending in a locked door for months, without once realising that it was a real place." p. 537 US. So Harry now knows that the corridor was real and, as Asian_lovr2 points out, that his dream of Arthur's attack in it was real. So I can swallow that Harry would believe his dream of Sirius' attack was real, too, even though there were other things that should have made him doubt it. Now, just for the sake of keeping this plot-line straight: ---------------------------------------------------------------- _Rough_Chronology_of_Events:_ Beginning in the summer, Harry has regular dreams of approaching a locked door at the end of a windowless corridor. Hypothesis: maybe the first one coincided with LV's first visit, and the rest are when LV obsesses or plans as Steve suggests. Since at first Harry is not so much curious as weary of the dreams, perhaps the scar connection is not yet much stronger than during GoF. Just before Christmas, Harry "dreams" he is a snake attacking Arthur Weasley. The snake's purpose was not to attack but it had to when discovered by Arthur. Hypothesis: maybe its purpose that night was to reconnoiter the inside the DoM which LV had never yet seen. It seems a bit much to risk if he merely wanted someone imperioed, don't you think? Perhaps when Bode failed to take the prophecy, LV felt he needed to gather more first-hand info. Shortly after Christmas, Harry begins Occlumency and realises during 1st lesson that the corridor is real and that the door leads to the DoM. [OoP ch. 24, p. 537 US] A single issue of the Daily Prophet carries stories of the escape of the DEs from Azkaban and the death of Bode. [OoP ch. 25, p. 544-546] Sometime in January, Harry reflects that, since the first day of Occlumency lessons, his scar prickling, and flashes of LV's emotions (accompanied by a sharper twinge) have greatly increased, and the corridor dreams are now coming almost every night. [OoP ch. 25, p. 553 & 554 US] I think this is exactly what Dumbledore was talking about when he told Harry that the lessons would open Harry's mind further to Voldemort. [OoP ch. 37, p.833 US] The night before the Quibbler article comes out, Harry first dreams that the door is *ajar;* it was always locked before. Ron snores and wakes him up; Harry feels disappointment. Hypothesis: LV is beginning to get new info on the DoM. From Rookwood? By exploring himself? [OoP ch. 26, p. 577 US] The night the Quibbler comes out, Harry has the dream of being LV and talking to Rookwood about who can take the prophecy from the DoM (though Harry himself doesn't know what they are talking about). [OoP ch. 26, p. 584-586 US] Hypothesis: it is after this that LV forms his plan to lure Harry to the DoM; Harry's eagerness to penetrate the door and anger at being woken increase greatly from this time and reflect LV's emotions at the time. Finally, LV succeeds in transmitting an image of Sirius' torture. [OoP ch. 31, beg. on p. 726 US] It's perhaps odd that LV's success finally comes in the afternoon when most of the dreams occured at night -- maybe just a clue to Hermione and logical readers? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking at how these events occured and interrelated, it's surprising how much came together to send Harry to the DoM: Voldemort's obsession with the prophecy, Voldemort discovering the scar connection because of and accidental attack on Mr. Weasley, the breakout of the DEs making Rookwood's knowledge available to LV, and Occlumency lessons facilitating the scar connection and yet never getting far enough to block it. Then there are the "if onlys" -- if only Harry had known the lessons would make him worse at first, if only he had practiced more, if only Hermione could have made Harry see the vision was unlikely, if only Sirius hadn't hopped up onto the dais, of all stupid places -- Harry and Sirius; two of a kind: if not for rotten luck, they'd have none at all... Annemehr Happy anniverary, OoP! From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 02:27:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:27:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D825A3.6758.10AFC49@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102359 On 22 Jun 2004 at 2:01, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > And when Neville is afraid of Snape more than anything else in the > world, it means something too. But does it really? Not all our fears are rational. I was an abused child, I experienced very significant abuse - but do you know what scares me more than anything else on this planet? Car mufflers. I am *not* kidding. The things absolutely *terrify* me. It's totally irrational (and I know where it comes from, and it's still irrational) but it's real. I was an altar boy and I used to have to serve sometimes for our local Bishop. Being around this man made me feel really frightened. He scared the living daylights out of me. Being near him made me incompetent to do routine things I did every week with the local priest. Yet, at all times I was around him, he was always charming, polite, gentle, and he seemed to try and go out of his way to make me as comfortable as possible. He's now a Cardinal and he's in the news a lot - I still get the same feelings when I see him on TV. It's not at all rational. Now Neville does have some reason to fear Snape - so it's not totally irrational that he does. But the fact that Snape is *his* worst fear, may well contain an element of irrationality building on top of something rational. Also - even a person with no serious fears in their life, is still going to have one that is worse. The fact that Snape (or any other fear) is top of Neville's list doesn't necessarily mean much. Rather than being a sign that Neville finds Snape unusually scary - it could be a sign that Neville is not that scared by other things. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 02:29:11 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:29:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading? References: <20040622022638.60577.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f701c45800$b4aeb7d0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102360 > I'm really not sure what could have been done to make > K's existence happier. Maybe if Sirius had just set > him free before he learned what the Order was up to? > I think he would have been overjoyed not to have to > wait on Sirius. Or, failing that, maybe Sirius > could have administered a cheering charm or two daily > to keep him in a good mood? > > Tyler > I don't think Sirius could've set Kreacher free even before he offered 12 Grimmauld Place to the Order for Headquarters, because then Kreacher would've been able to tell the Malfoys that Sirius is in London and living int he old house and they'd find ways to use this information against him, they could've gotten him thrown back in Azkaban. Alina. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:32:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:32:46 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > And when Neville is afraid of Snape more than anything else in the > > world, it means something too. > > "K": > I think it does also. But what? That Snape is just mean or is there > a reason that we don't know of yet for Neville to be afraid of > Snape? I think this is another case of not having enough information. > > "K" Alla: It could be the case of not having enough information or it could be both. I think that with the information we have right now - Neville has enough reasons to be afraid of Snape. But, hey, there is always could be something more - like Snape participated in the torture of his parents, for example. Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in comparison to this. Alla From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 02:43:10 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:43:10 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > But, hey, there is always could be something more - like Snape > participated in the torture of his parents, for example. > > Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in comparison > to this. "K": Maybe Snape is guilty of the above. Or maybe Snape tried to save the Longbottom family. Perhaps there is a reason why that information can't be made public. And perhaps Neville can't be allowed to remember that day and so his memory was tampered with. For the good, of course. ^-^ "K" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:52:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:52:06 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > But, hey, there is always could be something more - like Snape > > participated in the torture of his parents, for example. > > > > Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in > comparison > > to this. > > "K": > > Maybe Snape is guilty of the above. Or maybe Snape tried to save the > Longbottom family. Perhaps there is a reason why that information > can't be made public. And perhaps Neville can't be allowed to > remember that day and so his memory was tampered with. For the good, > of course. ^-^ > > "K" Alla: That is entirely possible, but then I would say if Neville's subconscious is speaking up, he would LOVE Snape, not be afraid of him, because Snape tried to save him. Then we are back to square 1 - Rowling showed us enough information for the moment to make a determination why Neville is scared of Snape. Due to what he does to him in class. It is entirely possible that later this assumption will turn out to be false and that is fine. But AT THE MOMENT it is a very reasonable assumption to me. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:55:30 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040622025530.42353.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102364 huntergreen_3 wrote: >>[4] With the revelation of his mother's death in this chapter, Hagrid is now confirmed to be another example of orphans in the HP books. Compare and contrast Hagrid with Harry, Tom Riddle/LV, Neville,etc.<< Excluding Neville (who isn't an orphan, just parentless), the three orphans are all half-bloods. AND the wizard parent (or the pureblood wizard in Harry's case) was the first to die in all three. That's a rather interesting parallel. It would be interesting, none the less, to know which of Neville's parents was tortured first. We know that the Longbottoms are Pureblood, but is there anything in canon about Alice's family? moonmyyst (who somehow finds Alice rather interesting and not sure why) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 02:58:45 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:58:45 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > > wrote: > > > > > > > But, hey, there is always could be something more - like Snape > > > participated in the torture of his parents, for example. > > > > > > Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in > > comparison > > > to this. > > > > "K": > > > > Maybe Snape is guilty of the above. Or maybe Snape tried to save > the > > Longbottom family. Perhaps there is a reason why that information > > can't be made public. And perhaps Neville can't be allowed to > > remember that day and so his memory was tampered with. For the > good, > > of course. ^-^ > > > > "K" > > > Alla: > > That is entirely possible, but then I would say if Neville's > subconscious is speaking up, he would LOVE Snape, not be afraid of > him, because Snape tried to save him. > > Then we are back to square 1 - Rowling showed us enough information > for the moment to make a determination why Neville is scared of > Snape. Due to what he does to him in class. > > It is entirely possible that later this assumption will turn out to > be false and that is fine. But AT THE MOMENT it is a very reasonable assumption to me. I've always wondered if what made Snape turn to D-Dore was an assignment given to him by Voldemort. We know that Snape changed sides, or at least appears to. Let's take him at face value for the moment. My premise is that something he saw, did, or was ordered to do was what made him change. We know the prophecy applied to Harry and Neville. D-Dore can prattle on if he wants about how V-Mort picked one, but it seems like a guy like V-Mort would kill them both on general principles. What if Snape was assigned to kill Neville and couldn't do it? Neville has an image of a snarling Snape lurking over his crib buried somewhere in his subconscious, which is why he is so afraid. I do not excuse Snape's behavior toward Neville. Not only does his go out of his way to belittle him in his own class, but, inexcusably for a teacher, he does it in front of other professors like Lockhart and Lupin. What if Snape sees Neville and thinks, "If only I'd have killed the little brat... I wouldn't be stuck here teaching classes, that's for sure." Regardless, I'd like to see explanations from the Snape apologists as to why it's an effective teaching tool to belittle a student in front of other teachers in other classes. I don't doubt that Snape's methods sometimes work. Some students will respond to sheer terror. I just don't think he gives a damn one way or the other whether the students get it or not. Darrin -- Subconscious Snarls would be an excellent band name. From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:26:06 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:26:06 -0000 Subject: World Book Day Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102366 I was reading back through the WBD Chat and this popped out at me JK Rowling replies -> I've got plans for all my characters. Actually, this is a really good place to answer a question about Draco and Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book six/seven? NO! The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton! (My daughter likes TF very much too, because he taught her how to use a diablo Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! Lady McBeth, not usually a shipper, but confused by this! From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 03:03:39 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:03:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Book Day Question References: Message-ID: <010f01c45805$855334c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102367 > JK Rowling replies -> I've got plans for all my characters. Actually, > this is a really good place to answer a question about Draco and > Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is > desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book > six/seven? NO! The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom > Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton! (My daughter likes TF very much > too, because he taught her how to use a diablo > > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying > something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > > Lady McBeth, not usually a shipper, but confused by this! > Umm wouldn't Ms.Radcliffe be the handle used by the chat user who sent in the question? alina. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 03:05:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:05:40 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" < snip. > I don't doubt that Snape's methods sometimes work. Some students will > respond to sheer terror. I just don't think he gives a damn one way > or the other whether the students get it or not. > > Darrin > -- Subconscious Snarls would be an excellent band name. Thank you, Darrin. I have no doubt that Snape will be an excellent researcher. So, I am crossing my fingers that if he survives at the end, he will go as far away from Hogwarts as possible to work on some experimental potions. If he wants the glory so much let him invent the cure for Lupin and get Order of Merlin or something for that, but stay away from children as far as possible. Alla From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jun 22 03:09:13 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:09:13 -0000 Subject: Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye In-Reply-To: <008201c457f1$bdfe9710$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102369 Alina: > Actually, I think that the Pensieve wouldn't be reliable enough. It seems to > me of the family of magic to which Occlumency and Legilimency also belong. > Now we know that Voldemort was able to "fabricate" a memory and let somebody > else access it (or force it on somebody else) through a kind of > Legilimency/Occlumency over distance bond. So, I suspect, that it's actually > possible to feed fake and fabricated memories into the Pensieve as well. > > By the way, to me that also means that it's possible the memories Harry saw > in Snape and in his pensieve weren't a hundred percent true either. Ally: Well, the impression I get is that the pensieve shows everything, even the things you may not conciously be aware of your memory recording. So, if I walk into a room to get a book, I might be focused only on the book and remember only the book, but in fact, my senses would be taking in a lot more that I mentally discard b/c its not important to me at the time. The pensieve allows you to see everything that happened, even the things you weren't aware you saw. Why would DD use it as a tool to gain better insights into events if it was an unreliable recording? I think it brings your memories into clearer and more accurate focus. And remember, Sirius and Lupin admit that the Marauders were the aggressors in Snape's pensieve scene when Harry confronts them about it. If I remember correctly, Sirius makes light of it, which kind of peeves Harry, but they basically explain that they were young and foolish. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 03:09:57 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:09:57 -0000 Subject: Missing Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102370 PoA pg 227... "At lunchtime they went down to the Great Hall, to find that the House tables had been moved against the walls again, and that a single table, set for twelve, stood in the middle of the room. Professors Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape, Sprout, and Flitwick were there, along with Filch, the caretaker, who had taken off his usual brown coat and was wearing a very old and rather moldy-looking tailcoat. There were only three other students, two extremely nervous-looking first years and a sullen-faced Slytherin fifth year. 'Merry Christmas!' said Dumbledore as Harry , Ron, and Hermione approached the table..... As Harry was helping himself to roast potatoes, the doors of the Great Hall opened again. Itwas Professor Trelawney. gliding toward them as though on wheels.... I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen!" No other names are mentioned. The table is set for thirteen. We get thirteen names. Dumbledore McGonagall Snape Sprout Flitwick Filch two first years a Slytherin fifth year H/R/Hr Trelawney My question is where is Hagrid? He surely wouldnt eat alone on Christmas. He can't have a wife if he becomes so smitten with Madame Maxime in GoF. Does he perhaps have children? Or was he simply forgotten in Jo's writing? Jason From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 03:12:06 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:12:06 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > That is entirely possible, but then I would say if Neville's > subconscious is speaking up, he would LOVE Snape, not be afraid of > him, because Snape tried to save him. "K": Not necessarily. You must forgive me because I don't have the time to quote canon but I think PoA gives us a hint of the fear Neville has for Snape. It's the good old boggart scene. What Neville is afraid of is Snape approaching him with his wand drawn. Of course all of this would be frightening to someone as small as Neville was around the time his parents were tortured. He wouldn't understand this person was actually only approaching him to help. Alla: > Then we are back to square 1 - Rowling showed us enough >information for the moment to make a determination why Neville is >scared of Snape. Due to what he does to him in class. "K": That's it? Is that all the character is? Just a nasty person? JKR does a much better job with her characters. No, there's much more to Snape than that. If there isn't than she's wasted my time. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 03:15:27 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:15:27 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > > That is entirely possible, but then I would say if Neville's > > subconscious is speaking up, he would LOVE Snape, not be afraid of > > him, because Snape tried to save him. > > "K": > > Not necessarily. You must forgive me because I don't have the time > to quote canon but I think PoA gives us a hint of the fear Neville > has for Snape. It's the good old boggart scene. What Neville is > afraid of is Snape approaching him with his wand drawn. Of course > all of this would be frightening to someone as small as Neville was > around the time his parents were tortured. He wouldn't understand > this person was actually only approaching him to help. > > Alla: > > Then we are back to square 1 - Rowling showed us enough > >information for the moment to make a determination why Neville is > >scared of Snape. Due to what he does to him in class. > > "K": > > That's it? Is that all the character is? Just a nasty person? JKR > does a much better job with her characters. No, there's much more to > Snape than that. If there isn't than she's wasted my time. Alla: Nasty person? More like abusive person to me. No, that is not all that this character is. He is also a former DE and spy for the Light. But AS A TEACHER that is ALL what he is to me at the moment. I will be very happy to change my opinion when two last books come out. :) From andie1 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 03:18:43 2004 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:18:43 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: <20040621220143.CLMR24958.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ariana" wrote: > From: Ali > > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of > > the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and > > OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could > > relate to. > Also, my thought on this was that at the beginning of SS/PoA/OoP, Harry does some sort of magic in front of the Dursley's. For example, the vanishing glass scene and discussions of Harry's other "odd happenings." There really isn't anywhere Harry does magic in the beginning of CoS. (Dobby does some at Privet Dr. but not Harry.) In PoA, there is the blowing up of Aunt Marge. GoF - no magic from Harry. Then, in OoP, he's caught with this wand by Uncle Vernon and is forced to do magic to save himself and Dudley from the Dementors. Could this be another possibility? Andrea From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 03:24:10 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Book Day Question In-Reply-To: <010f01c45805$855334c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <20040622032410.85877.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102374 Alina wrote: > JK Rowling replies -> I've got plans for all my characters. Actually, this is a really good place to answer a question about Draco and Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book six/seven? NO! The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton! (My daughter likes TF very much too, because he taught her how to use a diablo > > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > > Lady McBeth, not usually a shipper, but confused by this! > Umm wouldn't Ms.Radcliffe be the handle used by the chat user who sent in the question? alina. I remember seeing this question and I remember looking to see if that was the name of the person who sent it in. I don't think that it was. I figured that Daniel has a sister or that his mother had asked. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bamf505 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 21:36:50 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040621213650.77057.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102375 > vmonte: > I read this post on another website so I cannot take credit for > it. This is the scene at the end of OOTP with Harry and Luna. > > snuggle the muggle: > I think that Luna's words, "People keep taking my things" and > her not knowing where they go could be symbolic of Harry losing > all his "things," all the people that he loves and not knowing > why. I think she might be saying there, and Rowling is > saying there, "Things that are lost can be regained. You can find > them again. You just need to be patient." I found that message to > be very encouraging to Harry. bamf here: When I read that, something clicked. We've been told in different ways that those we love never truly leave us. Even if they die. (I want to say it's in PS/SS by DD, but it's brought up again in the PoA movie by Sirius). Could it be that Harry may eventually figure out that he has the strength to go on, despite all the PEOPLE he's lost? (Isn't that part of one of Rita Skeeter's quotes in her first 'interview', as well? That Harry 'says' he gets his strength from his parents?) Forgive me for not posting exact quotes, I don't have my books with me at work... ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jun 22 03:26:45 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:26:45 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102376 Ally: Well, not to be too trite here, and certainly not to apologize for Snape, but after reading this thread for a while, I just have to say how glad I am Snape terrorizes students and I hope he does it for a long time to come. I can't imagine how boring these books or the Harry Potter universe would be without his vitriolic tantrums and grudges and pettiness! Ally who is finding this thread more single-minded in its divisiveness than a debate between pro-life and pro-choice From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 03:32:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:32:47 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Ally: > > Well, not to be too trite here, and certainly not to apologize for > Snape, but after reading this thread for a while, I just have to say > how glad I am Snape terrorizes students and I hope he does it for a > long time to come. I can't imagine how boring these books or the > Harry Potter universe would be without his vitriolic tantrums and > grudges and pettiness! Alla: Absolutely. :o) What else I will be complaining about? From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Tue Jun 22 03:57:49 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:57:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: <20040622022638.60577.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102378 Tyler writes : Kindness? From Kreacher's perspective, yes. But I don't think that quite justifies it from an ethical standpoint. I'm really not sure what could have been done to make K's existence happier. Maybe if Sirius had just set him free before he learned what the Order was up to? I think he would have been overjoyed not to have to wait on Sirius. Or, failing that, maybe Sirius could have administered a cheering charm or two daily to keep him in a good mood? Lady Macbeth replies: I doubt very much that Kreacher would have been happy by being set free, because even though he ran to Narcissa with information, he is very much devoted to Mrs. Black and her husband - otherwise, he wouldn't be so obsessive about their belongings and about spending so much time with Mrs. Black's portrait. To be separated from that would be worse than anything else for him - that's certainly why he's hoarding their belongings and fishing them out of the garbage every chance he gets. As far as administering a cheering charm goes, it would certainly be against Kreacher's wishes, so wouldn't that be just as unethical as killing him in any manner? -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 22 01:05:35 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:05:35 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: <009b01c457b3$fc394270$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Narcissa *Black*? As in the ancient house of 'we hate muggles' Blacks? And > muggle-born Lily? I suspect has Narcissa been a friend of Lily's she might > well have been scorched off the tapestry like Andromeda was. > > K imamommy Well, how about Andromeda then? From clr1971 at alltel.net Tue Jun 22 04:03:37 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:03:37 -0400 Subject: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / References: <1087629245.8522.65491.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007b01c4580d$e593bbe0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102380 Barbara: Why are only certain people ghosts, for example, why >aren't Lily and James ghosts? Also, are the ghosts we see at >Hogwarts former Wizards? Christina: Harry finds Nearly Headless Nick in OotP to ask him this very question. Nick says only certain people stay behind as ghosts. In his case he was frightened of death so he is a ghost, not really alive but not really dead either. Moaning Myrtle said she stayed to haunt Olive, the girl that was teasing her about her glasses and was the reason she was in the bathroom crying. >Dreadnought: Have we seen a single decent Muggle in any detail in any of the >books? Even Hermione's parents seem to be become estranged >from their daughter. Christina: Where do you get this from? They don't keep her from doing magic or from school. The few times we see them in the WW they are so out of their element I don't blame them for being a bit quiet, especially with Arthur Weasley questioning them about muggle money and electricity. I get the impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents. Christina in GA - still 2 days behind Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 04:20:49 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:20:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts / Hermione & parents / References: <1087629245.8522.65491.m23@yahoogroups.com> <007b01c4580d$e593bbe0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <013601c45810$4cdefe20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102381 > >Dreadnought: Have we seen a single decent Muggle in any detail in any of > the >books? Even Hermione's parents seem to be become estranged >from their > daughter. > > Christina: Where do you get this from? They don't keep her from doing magic > or from school. The few times we see them in the WW they are so out of their > element I don't blame them for being a bit quiet, especially with Arthur > Weasley questioning them about muggle money and electricity. I get the > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents. > > Christina in GA I don't know, I myself get the impression that Hermione is getting estranged. It actually surprised me that Hermione is spending several summers in a row with the Weasleys (with the Order in book 5). I mean, if my daughter was going to a boarding school, I'd want her home for the holidays. She doesn't seem to miss her family all that much, but we do see her missing the wizarding world while she's home. Alina. From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 04:44:56 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:44:56 -0000 Subject: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: <007b01c4580d$e593bbe0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102382 >Dreadnought: Have we seen a single decent Muggle in any detail in any of > the >books? Even Hermione's parents seem to be become estranged >from their > daughter. > Christina responded: Where do you get this from? They don't keep her from doing magic > or from school. The few times we see them in the WW they are so out of their > element I don't blame them for being a bit quiet, especially with Arthur > Weasley questioning them about muggle money and electricity. I get the > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents. I don't share your impression. I found it odd and somewhat disturbing that in the nearly 2 years from the middle of the summer at the beginning of GoF until the very end of OOP, Hermione spends only a week or two with her parents. During this period, she goes from age 13 (if you accept the premise that she was born Sept. 19, 1980) to age 15 3/4 with practically no personal contact with them, beyond owls. I'm surprised that they even recognise her at the end of OOP! She very rarely mentions them, at least in Harry's presence, she skips seeing them at Christmas in CoS, PoA, and then GoF (although the Yule Ball is really only Christmas night...why couldn't she have visited them for the week between Christmas and New Year's Day?), and then the next year (in OOP) bails out of their planned ski trip in order to spend the holiday at GP. Not to mention, that she lies about where she'll be, implying that she's staying at Hogwarts to study for her OWLS. Doesn't this seem very odd for a girl her age, who is by all appearances, an only child? And what sort of parents would tolerate her opting out of spending the very short summer holidays with them in favor of the family of a boy she met at school? In light of all this, I found her remark about wanting to tell them she had been made a prefect because "--I mean, prefect is something they can understand--", to be a little, well, cold. Maybe not cold, but certainly condescending. I just can't reconcile Hermione's very limited interaction with her parents with a "normal", loving, parent- child relationship. Jo Serenadust From thrennish at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 04:41:19 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:41:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ee818a804062121416d76d3f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102383 > > imamommy > > Well, how about Andromeda then? Thren: At school, or just in general? I suppose it depends on how far the socialising went. I'd be inclined to leave it at some people we don't know about yet- after all, Hagrid sent off requests to friends of James and Lily. They can't *all* have been only James' friends. -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 04:58:38 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:58:38 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: <007b01c4580d$e593bbe0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <40D8491E.7546.19597A0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102384 On 22 Jun 2004 at 0:03, Christina in GA wrote: > >Dreadnought: Have we seen a single decent Muggle in any detail in any of > the >books? Even Hermione's parents seem to be become estranged >from their > daughter. > > Christina: Where do you get this from? They don't keep her from doing magic > or from school. The few times we see them in the WW they are so out of their > element I don't blame them for being a bit quiet, especially with Arthur > Weasley questioning them about muggle money and electricity. I get the > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents. A couple of places. GoF, p.353 (pages in British editions) "'Well... when I went up to Madam Pomfrey to get them shrunk, she held up a mirror and told me to stop her when they were back to how they normally were,' she said. 'And I just... let her carry on a bit.' She smiled even more widely. 'Mum and Dad won't be too pleased. I've been trying to persuade them to let me shrink them for ages, but they wanted me to carry on with my braces. You know, they're dentists, they just don't think teeth and magic should - look! Pigwidgeons back!'" There seems to be some conflict here between Hermione's use of magic, and her parents acceptance of it. OotP, p.151 "'Thanks,' said Hermione. 'Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is something they can understand.'" That really gives me the impression that Hermione's parents don't understand much about their daughters life and school at all anymore. OoTP, p.440. "'Well, to tell the truth, skiing's not really my thing,' said Hermione. 'So, I've come here for Christmas.' There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. 'But don't tell Ron. I told him skiing's really good because he kept laughing so much. Mum and Dad are a bit disappointed, but I've told them that everyone who is serious about the exams is staying at Hogwarts to study. They want me to do well, they'll understand. Anyway,' she said briskly, 'let's go to your bedroom, Ron's mum has lit a fire in there and she's sent up sandwiches.'" This is the one that really makes me wonder about an estrangement. Hermione has passed up a holiday with her parents to rejoin the Wizarding World - and they are disappointed at this. She spent much of the previous summer holidays at Grimmauld Place. She spent the previous Christmas at Hogwarts, and the last part of the summer holidays before that at the Burrow. Hermione is not spending that much time with her parents - and hasn't done so in close to a year and a half, by my reading. And in this last extract - she doesn't say that her parents understand - she says they *will* understand. It sounds to me like they are not happy about her choice - and she's trying to convince herself that given time they will be. I doubt it's a matter of a lack of love for the daughter, or a lack of love from her for them. On the contrary - their daughter enters a world they only have a very poor understanding of - and even though they don't understand it, they *let* her do that. That can take a lot of love - to let a child do something you don't understand because it's what she wants, and it's where she feels she needs to be. And Hermione obviously still cares for her parents - because she *wants* them to understand. It's not a lack of love - it's a fact that they are in two different worlds. And that's probably pretty hard to deal with. It's a feeling - the evidence is very tenuous, but that is the feeling it gives me. There's other issues too - Hermione is a *smart* girl. I'm *certain* that the idea of having her parents meet the Dursleys would occur to her - her parents are Dentists - respectable people, professionals, the type that the Dursley's might respect. I'm really surprised that Hermione hasn't tried to bridge the gap between the Dursley's and their mistrust of the Wizarding World by showing them that other young wizards and witches come from respectable Muggle backgrounds. It wouldn't work - but Hermione seems the type who is likely to think it would. She hasn't tried, though... I wonder if that's because she's worried that rather than her parents convincing the Dursleys that Wizarding is fine, that the exchange might be in the other direction. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 02:14:13 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040622021413.61278.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could relate to. My thought is that the opening chapter of Book Six would show us the events at Godric's Hollow (i.e. the death of the Potters), perhaps leading to Harry coming to terms with the fact that he's the one in the prophecy. JKR does mention that several of the early drafts of the opening chapter of PS/SS showed this event, and since the opening chapter to Book Six is very similar to one of the discarded chapters from PS/SS it seems to fit. "Noj_Ivob" I agree with this idea for chapter 2 but chapter 1 is going to have "Dudley the magical". My question is how is the whole thing going to be presented? As a dream? A memory? An explaination from one of the OotP? From DD? An accident? A diary? I like the idea that HP goes back to Privet Dr. He has an argument with Vernon and runs out to seek our Mrs Figg. While he is gone, LV shows up at the house looking for HP. While LV is torturing Dudley, his powers come out but is not enough to hold of LV. Harry walks in and saves Dudders and then the Order, called by Mrs. Figg, comes to save the day and wisk all off to GP. That is where HP finds a diary?? document?? overheard conversation?? about GH. moonmyyst (who would like to see Vernon in Harry's debt!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 05:37:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:37:45 -0400 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102386 Okay, perhaps this was beaten before, but I'm gonna beat on it again. We know that the Hogwarts Express leaves from King's Cross and just runs non-stop until it gets to Hogsmeade. Okay, that's why they call it an express, right? :-) But my real question is, if some of the students live closer, say they live in Scotland or northern parts, does this mean they have to backtrack all the way back to London just to take the express to Hogsmeade? I've often wondered this and, honestly, it's a real niggler for me. Help?? :-) My brain is frying over this. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Batchevra at aol.com Tue Jun 22 05:47:49 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:47:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alice Longbottom Message-ID: <1a7.2534f409.2e092205@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102387 In a message dated 6/20/04 9:52:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com writes: >The first time I read this scene, I took the whole thing at face value. On the outside, it looks like a poor, pitiful woman trying to give away pieces of paper. We see this and things similar in the mentally ill and feeble all the time. But is it? Could this be signs of Alice trying to come out of her stupor? Could she be trying to communicate with her son? Is there anything on the papers? Could she have recovered that far? Does she know of a danger to her son that is helping her to fight to regain her right mind in order to warn him? We had to have seen that scene for a reason. We could have just seen the two of them leaving, maybe even with his mother looking out, but to add in the giving of the wrapper. It just feels..... I don't know.... like there is more to it than meets the eye. Any ideas? Moonmyyst (who has finally gotten most of the white paint out of her black show dog's coat without loosing too much fur or temper!!)< I have always thought of this scene as Alice trying to send Neville a message. IMHO, Dumbledore knew from the start that there were two possibilities to defeat Voldemort, Harry and Neville. I think that Dumbledore told both sets of parents that their sons were targets, and the Potters did what they could and the Longbottoms did what they could. We have a good idea of what the Potters did, but we don't know what the Longbottoms did. Batchevra (who thinks that the Longbottoms may have supressed Neville's abilities and didn't tell Gran.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 00:34:34 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:34:34 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: References: <40D702F3.791.15BFC6@localhost> Message-ID: <40D80B3A.25704.A3CBC8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102388 On 22 Jun 2004 at 0:16, Steve wrote: > In the distant past some one did a astronomical analysis of various > reference to sighting star and the moon in the latest book. In that we > determined the coordinates of the areas marked on my maps. I'm trying > to search that information out, but haven't found it yet. (Not sure > which group it was in, or who all was involved.) Don't worry, Steve, that was me, so I have the information - and at the moment I'm still planning on using the co-ordinates you came up with. It's just what I have planned is a lot more ambitious than what I've done previously, and I intend to focus on multiple potential locations for Hogwarts - even if I do use an area near Dufftown as well, it's going to be in addition to the areas worked out. A lot of the time, it won't make any appreciable difference - there's not that much astronomical difference between different areas of Scotland - but in some cases location can make enough of a difference that handling multiple locations will be worthwhile. > If you need coordinates for any place, email me with the place names > and I can look them up on my computer/CD-ROM maps very quickly. > > Don't know it that helps. It certainly does - and I may certainly ask you for a couple of coordinates, if I can't find them elswhere. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 05:58:55 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:58:55 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D8573F.28182.1CCCB80@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102389 On 22 Jun 2004 at 2:32, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in comparison > to this. Constant abuse of Neville? The question is - is there really constant abuse of Neville? Following an off list discussion I've had recently I decided to look through the books to see precisely how Snape deals with Neville. Because prior to OotP, I had the impression that Snape was harming Neville - OotP made me reassess that, but I just thought it would be interesting to see how Snape really does treat Neville specifically. I was surprised at how few references I could find to Snape's interactions with Neville. And reading them, they don't strike me as anywhere near as bad as I'd thought previously. I can't swear I've got every reference - I've tried to find them all, but if people know of any I've missed, it could certainly change things. Page numbers refer to the British editions. Incident 1: Philosopher's Stone, p.103. Neville melts a cauldron, apparently because he didn't follow Snape's instructions. The potions damages other students shoes and causes the entire class to have to get to higher ground. Neville is covered in boils as a result of this. Snape's response - he calls him an 'idiot boy' and sends him to the hospital wing. OK - perhaps not the nicest thing in the world to say - but to a boy who has caused that much havoc because he didn't follow instructions, I can't really see that as particularly bad. Incident 2: Chamber of Secrets, p.140. No details given at all except that Snape walks off to bully Neville. No details, cannot be assessed. Incident 3: Chamber of Secrets, p.144. At the dueling club, Snape tells Lockhart that Neville causes devastation with the simplest spells. OK, again, not nice for Neville to hear - but hardly a huge deal *in the context of normal practice at Hogwarts - more on that after going through the examples.* Incident 4: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.95-96. Neville again fails to follow instructions. Snape asks if nothing penetrates his thick skull, and tells him that they'll test the potion on his toad, so he'd better get it right. We're dealing now with a boy who has on at least one previous occasion, made the same type of mistake. He has not followed simple instructions. Again, I don't really see this as that bad. Incident 5: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.97-98. Continuation of the previous incident. Neville is obviously working hard (with Hermione's help which she shouldn't be giving). Snape carries out his threat to test the potion on Trevor the Toad. It works as designed. Now, this one interests me - because Neville *is* working hard - Hermione is helping but Neville is doing the work. We know Snape can tell if this potion is mixed correctly by its colour - so he presumably knows Neville has mixed it correctly. He administers to Trevor - and when it work restores Trevor with an antidote - and then he takes 5 point from Hermione for helping Neville. He doesn't punish Neville at this time, for accepting her help. Even though, frankly, it's tantamount to cheating. I can't fault him at all here. Incident 6: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.100. Again a follow on from this incident - in the next class, Snape tells Lupin not to trust Neville with anything difficult - unless Hermione is whispering in his ear. Now Neville gets a fairly restrained public reprimand for his cheating. I'm not saying I approve of it - but in the context of Hogwarts (I will get to this) it's hardly a big deal. Incident 7: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.107. Aftermath of the class above - where Neville dressed the Snape boggart in his grandmother's clothes, it is mentioned that Snape is bullying Neville worse than ever. Again, no details so it's hard to assess how bad it really is - but if it is genuine bullying, then, yes, it's wrong - but we can't accurately judge it. Incident 8, Goblet of Fire, p.185. Neville melts his sixth cauldron, and is given a detention where he has to disembowel a barrel of horned toads. Hardly a earthshattering detention by Hogwarts standards, even allowing for the fact that Neville may like toads. It's something that has to be done. I don't see this as bad at all. Incident 9: Order of the Phoenix, p. 209. Snape gives his start of year lecture telling the students he expects them to pass his subject and his gaze lingers on Neville - who gulps. Hardly worth mentioning, but I'm trying to be complete. Incident 10: Order of the Phoenix, p.322 Neville provoked attacks Malfoy and has to be held back by Ron and Harry. Snape catches them and takes ten points away. Very mild treatment for fighting in the corridors. Snape could have done far worse. And that's it. That's all I can find. Out of the 10 incidents, 2 and 7 can't be assessed in my opinion, due to lack of detail. 1,4,8, and 10 are disciplinary matters - Neville does something to deserve what he gets - and while by some of our standards, the discipline may seem wronghanded in some cases, in the context of Hogwarts (in a minute!) it's hardly unusual. 6 may also fit this category, but it's less clear cut. 5 in my opinion, may well show Snape in proper teaching mode - he's motivated Neville to do better, Neville has done better. 9 is so minor as to mean nothing. 7 is the only case where I think Neville is genuinely hard done by. Snape's been provoked, but it's not Neville's fault. I can't really find the evidence for this supposed continued abuse of Neville. Yes, Snape, uses public reprimands as a disciplinary technique, and many modern educational psychologists disapprove of this method (personally, I think it has a place sometimes (it certainly was something I wanted to avoid!), but I'll acknowledge that current views are often against it). But we do need to consider the context of Hogwarts (finally!). Public reprimand is a *common* disciplinary technique in the Wizarding World. Howlers are the prime example of this. McGonagall uses this technique: "Professor McGonagall pulled herself back through the portrait hole to face the stunned crowd. She was white as chalk. 'Which person,' she said, her voice shaking, 'which abysmally foolish person wrote down this week's passwords and left them lying around?'" Within the context of Hogwarts, such reprimands seem a normal part of teaching practice. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find Snape uses them more often. But it's obviously not frowned on. Honestly - is Snape's treatment of Neville really that bad? I confess - I thought it was until I did this analysis - I thought it was potentially justified if it worked, but I did think Snape was often unfair to Neville. Now, having looked in more detail, I'm really wondering if my own prejudices because of teasing I received as a child were coming out. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 22 06:13:00 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:13:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Getting to Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <016701c4581f$f8c1d6e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102390 > Okay, perhaps this was beaten before, but I'm gonna beat on it again. > > We know that the Hogwarts Express leaves from King's Cross and just runs > non-stop until it gets to Hogsmeade. Okay, that's why they call it an > express, right? :-) > > But my real question is, if some of the students live closer, say they live > in Scotland or northern parts, does this mean they have to backtrack all the > way back to London just to take the express to Hogsmeade? > > I've often wondered this and, honestly, it's a real niggler for me. > > Help?? :-) My brain is frying over this. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) Well, they call it the Hogwarts Express, not the Hogsmeade Express, right? There should be another way for wizards and witches to get to the village itself. So, my guess is, that those Hogwarts students who live closer to Hogwarts than London arrive in Hogsmeade (possibly stay in the Three Broomsticks the way Harry and co. do in The Leaky Cauldron?) and then join the rest of the students at the train station to be taken to the castle. They probably arrive by Floo Powder (the local hotel/inn would be the logical place to have a public use fireplace) or possibly there are regularly scheduled Port Keys to the place? Alina. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 06:32:56 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:32:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102391 | From: darrin_burnett | Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:22 AM | A question I've always wondered is. What if a Muggle family refuses | to allow their child to go to Hogwarts? Maybe they are like the | Dursleys, or maybe the father had 16 generations of his family go to | Eton and just refuses to allow his son to go anywhere else? | | What do McGonagall and D-Dore do then? It would seem parents still | have the right to keep their children from there, much the same way | parents of a child who is 12 and scores 1600 on the SAT (a perfect | score for a college aptitude test, for our international friends) | don't HAVE to send that kid to college right away. [Lee]: I'm going to toss out another thought into this thread...something not quite along the lines of racism, but certainly along the lines of discrimination. What of a child, either pureblood or not, who has a physical or visual impairment but is magical? Can we get talking spell books, etc? Or would such children be denied a proper education in the WW? Would that child's parents have to fight to get him/her into a wizarding school? In RL, those of us who are blind or otherwise physically or visually impaired have a real struggle in obtaining simple things like a decent education...I've seen many times where blind people get professors who just aren't a bit interested in teaching them. I, myself, have seen job discrimination; no matter how well I'm qualified, the employer would rather hire a sighted person. I can't help but wish that JKR would tackle a blind wizard being admitted to Hogwarts. I'm sure most of the profs would be great, but I have serious doubts about Snape being willing to accommodate. :-) Hmm--fodder for fanfic, perhaps? And if said student were a half-blood or muggle-born...Ouch! See...I warned ya! And I'll be really interested to read answers. :-) Cheers, Lee (Who'll probably end up in Hufflepuff...but that's okay...just Not Slytherin!) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 06:35:56 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:35:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] His what ? Message-ID: <86.ee7b3f3.2e092d4c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102392 In a message dated 06/21/2004 8:13:05 PM Central Daylight Time, nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com writes: > Mr Crouch : ?You're not... HIS ?? says he, his mouth sagging. The > emphasis on the word ?his? is mine ! Nevertheless, in the book it is > printed in italic. > Harry : ?No.? Without the faintest idea what Crouch (is) talking > about. > Mr Crouch : ?Dumbledore's ?? > Harry : ?That's right.? > > Dumbledore's what ? His what ? What or who is Mr Crouch talking > about ? I don't know whether it is because of the importance of > father-son relationships in the book (the Crouchs, the Riddles, the > Longbottoms, the Potters, etc.) or whether it is because yesterday > was Father's Day but I can not help to think that Crouch meant > his... SON. Dumbledore's son ! Is it far fetched ? And who could > that be ? Is it because Mr Crouch is struggling with his words that > he says ?Who... you ??. Did he meant to say ?Who ARE you ?? > or ?Who... YOU ! I recognize YOU, Harry Potter ?? Or it could mean "You're not [Karkaroff] his" Crouch Sr. knows that Karkaroff was a Deatheater and for all he (Crouch Sr.) knows Karkaroff could still be one. I think Crouch Sr. was doing the best that he could at that time to determine if he was safe. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 06:53:32 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:53:32 -0000 Subject: Pinpointing Hogwarts (don't worry - not about Snape this time!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: Lady McBeth: > > If you draw a line west from Aberfeldy, you run right into Glencoe, > where they filmed most of the scenery for POA . . . I wonder if > someone didn't have some insight into where Hogwarts really is! > > The history of Glencoe would certainly fit in with Hogwarts History? Geoff: Following up a reference I made yesterday (Monday) about the thread on this topic back in November, I suggested in message 83994 that, when we looked at the various possibilities being discussed, there was a good case for places such as Rannoch Moor or the Knoydart peninsula and the former is, of course, quite close to Glencoe.There was a long series of posts which may make quite interesting reading - the earliest for which I have a message number is 83923. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 06:52:21 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:52:21 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D863C5.9492.1FDB97E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102394 On 22 Jun 2004 at 2:58, darrin_burnett wrote: > Regardless, I'd like to see explanations from the Snape apologists as > to why it's an effective teaching tool to belittle a student in front > of other teachers in other classes. It depends on the motivation behind it. If the intent is to persuade the student to modify their behaviour by creating a situation they don't like, and will not want to experience a repear of it, then doing this in front of others can be a highly effective teaching tool. I'm not saying I approve of the practice in general, because I don't (I think there can be very specific circumstance where it may be justified) - but it certainly can be highly effective. > I don't doubt that Snape's methods sometimes work. Some students will > respond to sheer terror. I just don't think he gives a damn one way > or the other whether the students get it or not. The thing is, it isn't sheer terror - or rather there's no reason to suppose it is. It certainly could be in some cases. But having experienced these methods and having experienced them working, they didn't work on me because I was terrified. They worked because I didn't enjoy them - but the feelings involved were nowhere near 'terror' levels. They were generally mildly unpleasant. I can't see these methods coming close to terror for most children - the fact is, I was a sensitive child. I was easily scared. I tended to cry a lot which made things very bad for me at times. I wasn't unusually resilient - I was quite the opposite (at least until I was 16). I'm the type of person who, according to the theorists, should have been harmed by these methods. But I wasn't. And out of all the people I know who experienced them, I don't know anyone who was. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jun 22 08:41:24 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:41:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Book Day Question Message-ID: <8.503c4201.2e094ab4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102395 In a message dated 6/21/2004 11:13:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mcdee1980 at yahoo.com writes: which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book six/seven? NO! The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton! (My daughter likes TF very much too, because he taught her how to use a diablo Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! Lady McBeth, not usually a shipper, but confused by this! ============================= Sherrie here: LOL - don't be. It's robably some fangirl who uses that as her screen name, & has probably been badgering JKR about it... There was one on the AOL boards for a while - not sure if she's still there, though. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 01:50:22 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:50:22 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: <20040621011232.64993.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102396 > Moonmyyst wrote: > The first time I read this scene, I took the whole thing at face value. On the outside, it looks like a poor, pitiful woman trying to give away pieces of paper. We see this and things similar in the mentally ill and feeble all the time. > > But is it? Could this be signs of Alice trying to come out of her stupor? Could she be trying to communicate with her son? Is there anything on the papers? Could she have recovered that far? Does she know of a danger to her son that is helping her to fight to regain her right mind in order to warn him? We had to have seen that scene for a reason. We could have just seen the two of them leaving, maybe even with his mother looking out, but to add in the giving of the wrapper. It just feels..... I don't know.... like there is more to it than meets the eye. >>> Valky: I am sorry you haven't been able to find the lengthy discussion that I recall we had on this subject last year here at HPFGU, perhaps we should have someone make the message files of the time immediately after the release of OOTP more readily available to us here and now. (** List Elves ** What do you think?) Lately I have come across a lot of posts that refer to things we discussed then and I would like very much to reveiw the posts myself just that it takes a week to back browser through the enormous volume of posts since to those ones. As to your question many of those participating in that discussion argeed with you that it seemed very much like she was attempting to communcate something to him and some of us even set about trying to decipher what that message was. One of the things we did you may be familiar with from HP fan sites, or you may not. And that is it attempt to unravel an anagram from the words "Droobles Best Blowing Gum". We also investigated canon on Droobles Gum and St Mungos because St Mungos is a *partial* anagram for Droobles Best Blowing Gum. I am glad to still see interest in this question and I hope you turn up something new for us. Happy trails to you Moonmyyst. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 02:22:20 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:22:20 -0000 Subject: Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102397 > Alina: > By the way, to me that also means that it's possible the memories > Harry saw in Snape and in his pensieve weren't a hundred percent true either. > Alla: > > I wish so much that we would know for sure how reliable Pensieve > is. it was argued both ways that it could objectively record > information or give memories the subjective colour of the person > who has the said memories. >> I absolutely agree with you both. If only we knew wether the pensieve recorded objectively or subjectively. I myself, was actively involved in a debate on this topic some time ago, here, and despite my argument for the possibility of subjective memory, or more specifically, more than a visual recording but also an emotional recording existing within the pensieve, I yet am unsure which possibility is most likely. Perhaps we should make a point of recording this as a planned question for Jo at such time as she is available to answer it for us. That is of course providing she already hasn't, in which case anybody who can tell me she has please intervene and direct me to the place that I can read her answer. Best to all Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 03:42:23 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:42:23 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102398 Naama : > In JKR's world, then, > early childhood abuse doesn't determine who you will be. Absolutely, the message is it is your own choices that will determine it. Nuff said. Valky From vila784 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 04:03:58 2004 From: vila784 at yahoo.com (marie) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:03:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort in the DoM, getting the prophecy (Re: How could Harry believe in the Dream ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102399 All I'd like to say is that had Voldemort been in the DoM wouldn't he have taken the prophecy? It says in canon that Voldemort couldn't go in himself for risk of being revealed to the wider wizarding community too soon. Therefore he sets up his plan for Harry. Voldemort only shows up out of necessity, otherwise he'd have likely preferred the ministry ignore his resurgance and continuing along without their interference. It's very unlikely that Voldemort was actually in the ministry until then. He must've gotten the image in a way other than him actually having seen it himself. "Marie" From v-tregan at microsoft.com Tue Jun 22 09:02:12 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:02:12 -0000 Subject: Alice the auror OotP quote (was Re: Did Lily have any girl friends?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102400 Hi All, Nadine said: >>> Where is it mentionned that Alice was an Auror ? In OotP ? <<< Indeed so. JKR wrote: >>> 'I'm not ashamed,' said Neville, very faintly, still looking anywhere but at Harry and the others. Ron was now standing on tiptoe to look over at the inhabitants of the two beds. Well, you've got a funny way of showing it!' said Mrs Longbottom. 'My son and his wife,' she said, turning haughtily to Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny, 'were tortured into insanity by You- Know-Who's followers.' Hermione and Ginny both clapped their hands over their mouths. Ron stopped craning his neck to catch a glimpse of Neville's parents and looked mortified. They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community,' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them. I ? yes, Alice dear, what is it?' <<< Cheers, Dumbledad. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 04:25:19 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:25:19 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102401 > Del answers : > Well, I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone*, to do something > about Snape's classes. > > Darrin wrote : > > And I disagree that D-Dore or others have not "forbidden him." > > No one said Snape wasn't clever and capable of being secretive. > > And like many abusers, he has instilled such fear in his victims > > that they could be afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. > > > > We don't know what D-Dore knows, frankly. > > Del replies : > We're talking about someone(DD) who knows when Harry leaves his > dormitory in the middle of the night covered by an Invisibility > Cloak. I won't believe that he doesn't know *exactly* what's going > on during Potions. Valky: I view DD's position here entirely differently. I would be inclined to add the consideration of Dumbledore's choice to give Harry to the Dursleys as an infant, nevermind the protest of McGonagall that there could be no worse place for him into this mix. Dumbledore's indignance that it would be worse for Harry to be subject to the elevated expectations of the WW and the glorification or versally the dissappointment that might be consequential of it goes a long way to explaining to what end DD would decide it was healthy to intervene. We know from OOTP that Dumbledore claims also to have placed Harry there for the protection afforded to him by the ancient magic that Lily had called upon to protect him. This is all Harry knows... I am finding that Dumbledore believed not just the protection but *both* the protection and the anonymity were in his best interests. At the end of OOTP, during the talk DD confesses that he feels he has made many mistakes in the course of trying to alleive Harry's suffering in his life and managed to moreso cause it and he was "....prouder of you (Harry) than I can say." after Harry's first year. DD was two things when deciding how to act in relation to the way Snape treated Harry. ONE he was _OVERWHELMED_ by the responsibility laid on his choices. ie "I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands." DD in OOTP chapter 37 and TWO he was quietly assuring himself that making fewer choices and staying in the background was working for Harry's better interests proven by his repeated victories over LV et al in each year. From mrsfigg1968 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 00:31:49 2004 From: mrsfigg1968 at yahoo.com (mrsfigg1968) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:31:49 -0000 Subject: Hermione in the Order, The Grangers (Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102402 Anasazi: > I have believed that the Grangers are going to be targets of > Voldemort since the end of GoF. In every book we are reminded that > the Grangers are dentists muggles, but aside from that, we know > next to nothing about them. I don't even believe we've heard them > speak, even when they've appeared at least twice in the books. Why > would she give so little back-story of the family of one of the most > important characters in the books? As you've said, we know more about > Neville's parents (and grandmother!) than we know of Hermione's family. > My first ever post, so forgive me if this doesn't follow correct format. I just read this post and you've given me pause. Did Voldemort not ask Lucius if he were ready to return to Muggle torture or something(GoF) at the cemetary reunion? Could it that Lucius is the one who goes after the Grangers? There's already animosity there from the Malfoys to Hermione. Lots of hints throughout the series that Hermione will be targeted for her muggle blood? Just a thought. "mrsfigg1968" From huntingseason03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 05:57:55 2004 From: huntingseason03 at yahoo.com (huntingseason03) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:57:55 -0000 Subject: Evil Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102403 Hi there. It's been a while since I've read this forum. I'm just wondering whether someone can link me to the "Evil Dumbledore" theories. I'm sure they are floating around somewhere in the archives but I can't seem to find them anywhere. Alternatively, if anyone is interested, they can outline some of the basic premises of the major "evil Dumbledore" theories and present the evidence for them. Then this thread can turn into a discussion about them. (Sorry if this topic has been done to death, I am not sure if it has or not). What do you all think of these theories? I think they are farfetched but barely plausible. "Evil Dumbledore" would be the King of all plot twists, but it would sort of be a cheap shot and I doubt it will happen. It's still interesting to read about them, though. -Bob. From v-tregan at microsoft.com Tue Jun 22 09:11:17 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:11:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione in the Order, The Grangers (Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102404 Hi All, In an unsigned message boyd_smythe said: >>> The thing that keeps bothering me about Hermione is that we know so little about her back-story. <<< Anasazi said: >>> In a chat, someone asked Jo if we would get to see more of Hermione's parents, and she answered with something like "Why would you want to know more about them? They're dentists, they're not that interesting" <<< Interestingly she also said "I always planned that Hermione would have a younger sister but she's never made an appearance and somehow it feels like it might be too late now" http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html http://tinyurl.com/2suex So it's even worse than boyd_smythe suggested ? we know too little about Hermione's back-story and Hermione's back story is in a state of flux! Cheers, Dumbledad. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Tue Jun 22 08:52:24 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:52:24 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers (was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: <20040621171112.77867.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102405 Paula wrote: > I'm not so sure about this. Harry's been conjuring a full Patronus for quite some time now, plus, look what he's already done to LV when he was still an infant. It took old Voldy a good 15 years (from Harry's infancy to OotP) to return to full powers. Wouldn't sell Harry so short. >>> I agree with you 100%. HP needs a strong incentive plus a hard training in order to access his full potentials. Right now he has only the incentive, named revenge. What remains to be seen is the training course which may includes a lot of dark magic (it depends on who will train him)! Paul From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Jun 22 10:11:24 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:11:24 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's attachment to her parents and peers (was: Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents /) References: <1087629245.8522.65491.m23@yahoogroups.com> <007b01c4580d$e593bbe0$c800000a@crouton> <013601c45810$4cdefe20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <001501c45841$4693daf0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 102406 Christina in GAsaid, > "I get the > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents." Alina replied, "I myself get the impression that Hermione is getting estranged. It actually surprised me that Hermione is spending several summers in a row with the Weasleys (with the Order in book 5). I mean, if my daughter was going to a boarding school, I'd want her home for the holidays. She doesn't seem to miss her family all that much, but we do see her missing the wizarding world while she's home." Now me: Ha-haaa! Good morning everyone! *rustles her still sleep-ruffled feathers* Now this is interesting! I'm currently attending a psychology course at uni (yes, my Master appreciates me learning more about the muggle world! *grins*). Its topic is attachment and development. There are several different types of attachment possible between a child and its parent(s). One of them is the secure form, in which it is normal for a child to direct its attention to its environment and peers rather than to its family when it grows up. The exploration factor becomes larger the older the child/adolescent becomes. It can very well be a close relationship between child and parents when the child values its friends' company over its parents'. This is not meant for all aspects in life, but a secure attachment means two things: a close relationship to one's parents when you're clearly dependant on them; being able to talk to them about problems and inner conflicts. On the other hand it is important for an adolescent to establish attachment to other people around him/her. At some point parents and adolescent alike do have to let go a part of each other. A secure attachment makes it a lot easier because there are no (or at least minimal) guilty feelings involved and the adolescent knows he/she is welcome back home at any time. I think this is transferable to Hermione. She spent much time in the Muggle world and doesn't seem to think about her parents in another way than before she was introduced to the WW. She went on holidays (to France, for example) with them and as she grows older, her interests/future perspectives and friends belong more to the WW - like herself, because she's a witch (who'd have guessed, *g*, sorry for that! ; ) ). I think Hermione's parents want their daughter - who, apparently, is very capable to do a lot without help (I'm thinking of her habit of reading everything up and drawing the right conclusions, her bravery and wit; I have no doubt her parents know about the thngs she experiences at school) - to find a life of her own. They don't give her a bad conscience for spending time with whom she prefers, they support it (I think silently, sheer consent with what Hermione decides in that aspect). I see this as a sign of trust between them - the parents trust their daughter's judgement and actions to a far extent. What I want to say is that I don't think Hermione has become estranged from her family. She simply involves in her life as a witch which doesn't automatically end outside school but will (as I see it) be her future as well. (*grins*: [her] 'past present and future'!) [I remember that at her age I wanted to do a lot alone/without my parents. Alright, let's not discuss my parents here. ; ) ] I hope I didn't forget anything (am still a little slepy)... SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 11:29:29 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:29:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102407 boyd: Vivian, love this thought. For some time, I've thought a few more parent-figures were in danger from JKR's plot, as Jo needed to make the children more independent and directly involved. However, I had not thought through to the conclusion that Molly's departure would enable them to join the OoP. This leads me to wonder on Hermione's parents. Will Harry and Ron become members of the OoP without Hermione? I can't see her parents letting her join the group all summer long--so will JKR have them endangered to put Hermione in the OoP, as well? The thing that keeps bothering me about Hermione is that we know so little about her back-story. I keep wondering if we're fated to see more of that family. Frankly, we know less of importance about them than the Longbottoms, yet fewer words have been expended on the Grangers. Classic Jo redirection? vmonte responds: I think you are right about Hermione's parents. It would make sense that the DEs would target the families of the trio. Especially, if they cannot get to the trio. vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 22 11:39:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:39:45 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102408 > > > Barbara: > > It's also clear to me that Snape is a double agent, that DD x >>snip<< > Susan: > Why is it clear, to you and everyone else but me, that SS is _still_ > a double agent? I don't see how anyone who's even remotely connected > to the school or to LV could possibly think that SS is still loyal in > any way to LV. I get it that since he didn't show up in the graveyard > scene in GoF that his absence could easily be explained by the fact > that no one can apparate on/off the Hogwarts grounds, but why would > anyone still expect him to show up there? > Potioncat: I'm not convinced either, Susan, but I can't think of what else he could be doing. I think the Double Agent folks have done a very good job of showing how it could come together. (nod of respect to them) From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 11:57:26 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:57:26 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: <010d01c457de$8ed7f390$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102409 Sherry G wrote: >>The whole idea of house elves has bothered me ever since the first introduction in COS. It got even worse in GoF. Lines like Ron's saying that house elves are happy .... the whole attitude toward them has really bugged me. It seems so reminiscent of the slave masters in the South, who always said that the slaves were "happy" in there slavery.<< HunterGreen: It bothered me a bit at first, but the more I read (in GoF, at least) the more it started to make sense. They *are* happy. When the trio go down to the kitchens the house-elves trip over themselves to try to serve them, and are offended by the idea of getting paid for their work. Dobby himself asked for *less* money/time off than Dumbledore offered him. In this same thread Lady Macbeth said: >>And what did he do with those supplies? Made socks to give to the humans around him. His needs of food, shelter and companionship were covered by his "place of employment" as are all elves. He doesn't seem inclined to leave Hogwarts and find his own place. He won't accept money that could be banked or used excessively on himself in any way. He's using his money and his freedom to BETTER SERVE THOSE HUMANS AROUND HIM.<< And that's just it, he doesn't really value the same things that wizards (humans, I suppose) do. They value loyalty and honor and praise (there's some old thread I came across once describing the house-elves as praise-junkies). They don't want leisure or material things. Sherry G: >>There were times in GoF that I could hardly stand to read Winky's parts, because of her attitude of sickening loyalty to a man who had owned her and treated her cruelly. I hope that JKR is going to take this further and have a major house elf revolt or something.<< I don't think that's necessary. Its really the mistreatment of house- elves that needs to be fought against, not the enslavement. Lady Macbeth continued: >>The only problem I personally have with the house elves' situation are those who AREN'T happy with where they are and are mistreated by their masters. The house elves at Hogwarts are happy, otherwise they'd have taken Hermione's hats and run while they had the chance. The house elves at the Malfoys may or may not be happy, but they are being mistreated, some probably more than others. Winky was being mistreated in Crouch's care, but she was happy there. The "win-win" situation would be in turning around the HUMANS' attitude toward house elves - making laws and restrictions regarding the care and treatment of house elves.<< I completely agree with that. House-elves don't necessarily want to go off and live on their own and have little house-elf families, I think they very much enjoy servitude, they just want to be appreciated for it. And to some degree they want to be respected, or at least have their position respected (the hogwarts elves don't like Hermione's suggestions of being paid for their work, Winky gets very upset at the idea of dilvulging Crouch's secrets, & Kreacher cannot stand to see people in his mistress' house that she wouldn't have approved of, and he doesn't like seeing her things destroyed). I think I should point you to post 92482 where Steve (bboy_mn ~ although I think he has a different moniker now), catalogued many previous posts on this subject, which are rather interesting if you are curious at all about house-elves. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Tue Jun 22 09:51:35 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:51:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <004e01c457cb$81073f90$a11ba8c0@KIMBERLY> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102410 > > Kimberly wrote: > > I completely agree, Gina. Ron may have started to show interest for Hermione, but I haven't seen the same from Hermione towards Ron (except in the movie). In fact, I read the opposite with Hermione. And also I think Cho realizes it more than Harry realizes it. Like you said, Harry hasn't noticed Hermione > as a girl yet. JMO. > > Kimberly you are right. It is common knowledge that we are seeking for the treasure far on the horizon while the treasure is always under our own nose. Even now I can't believe how short-sighted (or blind more precisely) I was in a similar situation while I was capable enough to monitor everything happening around me. As for your statement about Cho, you forgot to mention Krum. Krum (who is an adult) is considering Harry (who is 4 years younger) as an equal rival in love, which is illogical without probable cause. Wherever there is smoke, there is fire. Paul From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 10:18:49 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:18:49 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102411 > imamommy: > > Hermione's attitude on the subjuect of house elves seems to me to be > not accounting for the whole picture. Her methods only offend and > infuriate the elves. My theory is that there is a logical reason > behind the way that house elves serve humans. I think there is a > piece of missing backstory here that would clarify why things are > the way they are. > > I find it especially interesting that Hagrid defends > the "eslavement" of the elves. If anyone were to speak up for these > creatures, I would expect it to be him. And DD says that Kreacher > is "bound by the enchantments of his kind" (I'm not sure if that's > the exact quote, butI think it's pretty close). It seems to me that > there is something besides mean wizards that keep house elves > working for wizards. Finwitch: OK, everyone knows the hard-working elves of Santa Claus/Father Christmas... (who's obviously moving by magic and using a Time-Turner so there to the theorists trying to count how fast he had to be going!) So, it seems that this embodiment of goodness has something like house-elves! --- They come by ancient houses... they're bound by enchantment of their kind.. (doesn't sound like a wizard put the spell, but that the elf did it!) They're to (ideally) serve one family and one house for ever (says Dobby). ------ Obviously there *can* be a change, though - but elves like Winky don't take it well. (And, by the way Dobby acts, Dobby could be Harry's personal house- elf!) Kreacher is also one who LOST that family, (except that Sirius came back) - but he is there, in the house... (not doing anything until Sirius came... absolutely depressed, wasn't he?!) Dunno, maybe Dobby WAS a Potter house-elf, but since all the Potters died and Harry went to live with Muggles (and the house exploded) he ended up with Malfoys. Still, Dobby's bounded to Harry - the last of the Family... (which is why he *could* leave the house! unless we're to find that Harry's related to Malfoys...) Anyway, I think a house-elves can't be happy unless serving wizards and witches... but if they *lose* a family/house they were happy, they'll let all go, and lose all will to live etc. They NEED work. (and get terribly upset if someone tries to take their work away from them!) What made them that way? It seems like some of them (like Winky) are born to it. And um... well, if they were made in ancient days for the purpose of serving - well, they still have this *purpose* in their lives! Hermione and her SPEW - well, if she was to truly help the elves free, to get well-treated, respected etc. Why, I ask, why did she NOT give the elves some respect by asking what they want instead of coming up with things like "pay, clothes, retirement...". After all, that's what the conditions of work with Guilds/Unions was about: What the Workers wanted and then a compromise with the employers to get some of it. Hermione begins her SPEW and protests without speaking to anyone involved... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 11:02:32 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:02:32 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > [Lee]: > I'm going to toss out another thought into this thread...something not quite > along the lines of racism, but certainly along the lines of discrimination. > > What of a child, either pureblood or not, who has a physical or visual > impairment but is magical? Can we get talking spell books, etc? Or would > such children be denied a proper education in the WW? Would that child's > parents have to fight to get him/her into a wizarding school? > > I can't help but wish that JKR would tackle a blind wizard being admitted to > Hogwarts. I'm sure most of the profs would be great, but I have serious > doubts about Snape being willing to accommodate. :-) Hmm--fodder for > fanfic, perhaps? And if said student were a half-blood or > muggle-born...Ouch! Well, mildest visual problem: having glasses is no problem (obviously, Harry has them and sees nothing without!). bit more serious: Moody had lost his eye (so he got this Magical Eye instead - maybe they'd do something like that if someone was blind? I don't think he lost his job as Auror just for that). But I think you could do a spell to make a book speak the contents (I DO keep wondering about Aberforth! Did he do that to learn spells or did he ask Albus to read for him?) Or maybe, well, just use a birds eyes... (I read a fanfic where one person did so). They do have talking mirrors, so well, why not a talking book? Still, there are lots of things that can not be seen by anyone (like the Invisible Book of Invisibility). The shopkeeper complained about not being able to find it, as I recall... I keep thinking that perhaps the Invisible Book was written using Braille? and, Hogwarts has whole Library Section of Invisibility... (Harry was hiding there in the Chamber of Secrets and heard Hufflepuffs talking about him...) Oh, and... I wonder if a magical person blind to light would instead see MAGIC. (So you wouldn't KNOW they can't see light in Hogwarts, would you? It'd give them an advantage at Hogwarts!) Anyway, Dumbledore welcomes anyone with the talent (and if a werewolf can be accepted, why would blindness, deafness or such be a problem?) -- Finwitch From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 12:40:38 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:40:38 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D863C5.9492.1FDB97E@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 22 Jun 2004 at 2:58, darrin_burnett wrote: > > > Regardless, I'd like to see explanations from the Snape apologists as > > to why it's an effective teaching tool to belittle a student in front > > of other teachers in other classes. > > > It depends on the motivation behind it. If the intent is to > persuade the student to modify their behaviour by creating a > situation they don't like, and will not want to experience a repear > of it, then doing this in front of others can be a highly effective > teaching tool. Pg 100 UK version, PoA: "Perhaps no one has warned you, Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear." This, of course, is in reference to Hermione helping Neville with Potions, an act which Snape has already punished Gryffindor house for. (Five points off.) Snape then prepares to leave, leaving Lupin to deal with humiliated, angry and distracted students. Yeah, that's effective team teaching. So I suppose you could argue that Snape was wanting to reinforce the "Don't help him, Hermione," lesson, but guess what? This is Lupin's class and Lupin can run it how he wants. He can even have Hermione tutor Neville in class downtime if he wants. Snape can save the reinforcement for his own class. Lupin comments that Neville will indeed be given the first task and expresses confidence in him. And as we see, Neville succeeds, which may be, without poring over canon, the first real academic success we see Neville have outside of Herbology. Which goes to show that sometimes a kind teacher's methods work too. > I'm not saying I approve of the practice in general, because I > don't (I think there can be very specific circumstance where it may > be justified) - but it certainly can be highly effective. The only way I can possibly think of that this would be justified is if the teachers worked something out beforehand and had a bad cop/good cop routine going, something I have a hard time believing Snape and Lupin would be able to work together enough to do. Otherwise, Snape is out of bounds and Lupin, effective teacher that he is, uses it to help Neville and the rest of the class. Ask any teacher how he or she feels about a colleague interrupting his or her class to slam one of the students and I think you'll get an answer that doesn't justify Snape. Darrin -- Justifying Snape? Not a very good band name. From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 22 12:50:14 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:50:14 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102414 I agree that it is most definitely the WW community that needs to change, not the Elves, and that the way the Elves are treated is as big an issue as their enslavement is. It starts with the enslavement, though, doesn't it? Other than Dumbledore, we haven't seen anyone treating their Elves as anything higher than dirt. If I was an Elf at Hogwarts, I wouldn't want to take one of Hermione's hats either; that would mean I'd be on my own and might get picked up by someone like the Malfoys or be turned away again and again the way Dobby was before he found his way to Hogwarts. They've got the best deal in the WW, it seems, at Hogwarts. The initial problem with the enslavement is that is breeds the poor treatment of those enslaved. Whether magical or not, the ones who own have a good deal of power over the ones owned. Even Sirius, who would love nothing mor than to set Kreacher free, isn't exactly tolerant of Kreacher. I'm not saying Kreacher is a cuddly and loveable little Elf, but isn't it the responsibility of Sirius to have a better relationship with Kreacher? He's far better than the other Blacks, it seems, but his authority over Kreacher is always there. I can't help but be on Hermione's side in this issue. I want to see all the Elves set free to serve whoever they'd like. Their loyalties to their masters seem to stem from their isolation and lack of knowledge about better situations. In the end I find it cruel that they are magically bound to their masters and that so many masters, it seems, take such advantage of that bondage. --jenny from ravenclaw, who wears her S.P.E.W. badge with pride From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 12:56:12 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:56:12 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: References: <40D863C5.9492.1FDB97E@localhost> Message-ID: <40D8B90C.25973.B25F43@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102416 On 22 Jun 2004 at 12:40, darrin_burnett wrote: > This, of course, is in reference to Hermione helping Neville with > Potions, an act which Snape has already punished Gryffindor house > for. (Five points off.) Snape punished *Hermione* in the previous class. He did not punish Neville. > Snape then prepares to leave, leaving Lupin to deal with humiliated, > angry and distracted students. Yeah, that's effective team teaching. Who said anything about 'team teaching?' Not me. I'm fairly sure the idea is complete anathema to Snape, and I'd be surprised if the concept would even occur to Lupin. > So I suppose you could argue that Snape was wanting to reinforce > the "Don't help him, Hermione," lesson, but guess what? This is > Lupin's class and Lupin can run it how he wants. He can even have > Hermione tutor Neville in class downtime if he wants. No, I wouldn't argue that Snape was wanting to reinforce the 'Don't help him, Hermione' lesson. My view is that, if anything, it was 'Don't let Hermione help you, Neville.' Entirely a different lesson. > Snape can save the reinforcement for his own class. Yes, and in my opinion, he should have. Having let Neville leave his class without punishment, Snape should not have done what he did later. I'm not defending what he does in Lupin's class for a moment. You're question was 'why is this an effective teaching tool'? That's what I was answering. I *do not* think Snape should have done this - that doesn't mean I think it's ineffective. I don't think he should have done it for two reasons - the first is that he had the opportunity to punish Neville if he thinks it was deserved. He let it pass. It's unfair to do it later in such a case. Secondly, it's grossly disrespectful to Lupin. > Lupin comments that Neville will indeed be given the first task and > expresses confidence in him. And as we see, Neville succeeds, which > may be, without poring over canon, the first real academic success we > see Neville have outside of Herbology. > > Which goes to show that sometimes a kind teacher's methods work too. Sure, and I have never for one moment claimed that they don't. Often they are the best methods to use. Just not always. > > I'm not saying I approve of the practice in general, because I > > don't (I think there can be very specific circumstance where it may > > be justified) - but it certainly can be highly effective. > > The only way I can possibly think of that this would be justified is > if the teachers worked something out beforehand and had a bad > cop/good cop routine going, something I have a hard time believing > Snape and Lupin would be able to work together enough to do. Yes, and that's pretty much what I think as well. But your question wasn't whether this method was justified - it was whether it could be effective. Different question. > Otherwise, Snape is out of bounds and Lupin, effective teacher that > he is, uses it to help Neville and the rest of the class. Snape *is* out of bounds in my opinion. But that doesn't mean his method might not work - it just means that there's other factors involved (such as common courtesy) that means this really wasn't the place for it. > Ask any teacher how he or she feels about a colleague interrupting > his or her class to slam one of the students and I think you'll get > an answer that doesn't justify Snape. Your question didn't ask about justification. It asked about effectiveness. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 13:01:09 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:01:09 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > A question I've always wondered is. What if a Muggle family refuses > to allow their child to go to Hogwarts? Maybe they are like the > Dursleys, or maybe the father had 16 generations of his family go to > Eton and just refuses to allow his son to go anywhere else? > > What do McGonagall and D-Dore do then? It would seem parents still > have the right to keep their children from there, much the same way > parents of a child who is 12 and scores 1600 on the SAT (a perfect > score for a college aptitude test, for our international friends) > don't HAVE to send that kid to college right away. I suspect, if they are qualified to attend Hogwarts, they posses a certain level of skill. With that skill come various unexplainable incidents (like Harry appearing on the roof at school). If the Dursleys had a child like that, they might want to do what they could to keep them under wraps. As such, it might not be too difficult to convince them to send that child away. If they go to Dad's Alma Mater, everyone will know about the strange things that happen around them. Or perhaps there's some kind of charm that can be olaced upon them to keep their skills from developing. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 13:04:39 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040622130439.38122.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102418 Wanda Sherratt wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > delwynmarch wrote: > I, Del, wrote : > > How do you know that he "abuses" his authority ? > > owlery2003 comments: > > Lots of examples throughout the books - the few that leap to mind are the "oversight" of slyth quidditch team members hexing the gryffindors (despite numerous witnesses), the "no marks for you" approach in potions (repeatedly), the override of wood's booking the quidditch pitch for practice (admittedly minor), the automatic detentions and points against ron/harry when they held neville back from launching into malfoy . . . wish I had more time to remember more! > > Well, I think this is starting to cheapen the word "abuse". I don't count as abuse just anything that makes a child unhappy. Abuse to me is akin to torture, either mental or physical. None of these things that Snape does is anything like that level of cruelty. He's more like a boot camp instructor, making it hard for his students, and taking a perverse pride in being so tough. When Hermione gets good marks in Potions, you know it MEANS something. Owlery2003 responds: I think in context of "abuse OF AUTHORITY" it is closer to "fundamental fairness." From that perspective, Snape is blatantly unfair, and delights in his lopsided treatment. Regarding abuse generally, no, he doesn't cross the physical line (though the poisoning episode might be close - he would doubtless administer an antidote in time). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 11:53:33 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:53:33 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: <20040622021413.61278.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102419 "Ali" wrote: > > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could relate to. Hmm... How about Harry gets/has a disease (showing Dursleys neglect of him)? A disease with a fewer to start with, along with uncontrollable anger, and possibly a breath of fire. (Dragon Pox?) Then someone of Wizarding World comes to pick Harry up (Sirius could have, in PoA and some others (namely Moody, Lupin and Tonks) DID in OoP)... And JKR did say this will be Harry's shortest stay ever. If Harry leaves 4 Privet Drive during the FIRST Chapter, it'll definately be a short stay! Still, if Harry has Dragon Pox and breath of fire is included Harry's likely to burn his relatives! Oh, and it happens every time someone tries to wake him up! (Never tickle a sleeping Dragon, remember? Dursleys are about to find out why not!) I mean really, Artifical Artefacts (when did Harry NOT get so damaged?) Spell Damage (well duh, Harry's got his share of THAT...) Then there was the part of being harmed by a creature... (well, Harry's done with Dementors and he HAS been bitten by a basilisk AND a giant spider - healed by chocolate/Phoenix Tears) - all that's left of St Mungos departments is Magical Bugs. (After Harry's been in that Grimmauld Place, the Ministry and St Mungos, and at Hogwarts, maybe he's been infected? What WAS that silver instrument Sirius hit off with a book?) -- Finwitch From laurens at leroc.net Tue Jun 22 12:53:09 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Regardless, I'd like to see explanations from the Snape apologists as to why it's an effective teaching tool to belittle a student in front of other teachers in other classes. I'm afraid I'm not a "Snape apologist", Darrin, but I thought I'd just pick up on this question. I agree with a number of posters who have already replied to this thread that Snape's behaviour is certainly not tantamount to abuse. I was dithering for a while when it came to Neville - however, Shaun's excellent post of examples has totally convinced me. There's a cliche: "He doesn't suffer fools gladly", and that seems to be the simplest explanation of Snape's interactions with Neville. Anyway - enough of that rambling! In answer to your question, I don't feel any explanation is necessary right now. Shall we recommence this discussion AFTER the empirical evidence of the OWL results? ;-) Lauren. From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 11:46:31 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:46:31 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102421 Paula Gaon wrote: > > I'm not so sure about this. Harry's been conjuring a full Patronus for quite some time now, >> Greatelderone replied: >> Yes so? He conjured the patronus with Lupin's help, but Voldemort has over forty years of experience with magic and the dark arts and was one of the brighter students trained by Hogwarts. Harry on the other hand is not.>> Paula: > >plus, look what he's already done to LV when he was still an > >infant. It took old Voldy a good 15 years (from Harry's infancy to OotP) to return to full powers. Wouldn't sell Harry so short. >>>> GEO: Except we know that he didn't do it. It was his mother's sacrifice that gave him the protection to defeat Voldemort. In short he didn't do anything and I for one don't think he has the ability to defeat Voldemort especially since Voldemort can even give such a powerful wizard like Dumbledore such a difficult time.>>> David: I've seen similar comments that Harry does not seem to possess any exceptional powers. We don't know the full extent of his maturing skills, but one scene keeps coming back to me. In the GOF with his and LV's wands linked, LV was clearly trying to force the energy joint back into Harry's wand. With full concentration, Harry was able to force the joint back into LV's wand, apparently winning this battle of wills. What this means and was this a foreshadowing of Harry's powers, we don't know. It seems he has some exceptional skills of his own; strength of mind or will, courage, conviction? We shall see. David From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:16:05 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:16:05 -0000 Subject: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102422 "hettiebe" wrote: > I'm afraid this isn't entirely canon but please bear with me. In > Philosopher's Stone Dumbledore makes the comment about having been > put off Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans by coming across a vomit > flavour one in his youth. Now, I've just been replaying the > Philopher's Stone game in which there is a side quest to collect > wizard cards and I remembered that Bertie Bott was on one of the > cards. I checked his dates and his card says that he was born in > 1935, at which time Dumbledore would have been around 85. Not 'in his > youth' even by wizard standards. So, unless a mistake has been made > in the game, Dumbledore MUST have gone back in time. > Aha!!! Not having seen the card in question, a side-question must be: is that the Bertie Bott who actually invented the Beans, or could that have been an earlier family member? Back to the main issue: When you're 150+, 85 must seem pretty youthful. After all, that's nearly half Dumbledore's lifetime ago. Look at all the things which have happened since: Grindelwald (sp?) and Voldemort just for starters. Also bear in mind that JKR has said (sorry, can't recall reference) that she wrote Dumbledore so that he DOES NOT LIE. Anything said by DD can be taken as JKR's voice "within the book". You might have to unwrap a few million layers (like classical British sarcasm and vast capacity for understatement) but nothing Dumbledore says is actually False. HTH HAND -- Phil From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Jun 22 10:25:03 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:25:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) References: Message-ID: <002101c45843$2eaf25a0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 102423 Greatelderone wrote: "Harry was explaining to Cho that even with the training they were getting with DA, Cedric still never stood a chance against Voldemort. Cho pointed out that Harry survived when he was only a baby and Harry responds that NO ONE KNOWS WHY he survived." Then Sarah asked: "I don't know if I'm just being excessively dumb here but I thought we all knew exactly why Harry survived and Voldemort was defeated - his mothers sacrifice caused the curse to rebound on Voldemort. So why would Harry treat it as if it were still unexplained? Because he didn't want to get into that conversation with Cho? Can anyone clear this up?" Now me: Good morning! When I read this scene, I thought that Harry didn't want to open the love issue with Cho. As he has been told by Dumbledore in PS he assumably still knows about his mother's love/sacrifice. But I can understand that Harry doesn't want the whole WW to know. SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 13:41:48 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:41:48 -0500 Subject: uncle algy??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102424 A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he was eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. Very interesting. And to add fuel to the fire being fanned by those who consider that any representation of 'child abuse' is not amusing and must be condemned outright - isn't it time you had a go at Uncle Algy? Remembering of course, that if he hadn't persisted in throwing Neville off piers, dropping him out of windows and whatever, Neville would probably not have got to Hogwarts. Shame on me, I laughed my socks off at the image of Neville bouncing down the path on his head, but obviously JKR was making a serious point and humour was the last thing she intended. For sure. There are those that have suggested ESE!Algy and ESE!Gran, usually in an attempt to explain Nevilles shyness, near Squibness and the continuing hospitalisation of his parents. Kneasy Gina: Didn't someone say that the character Augustus in the US version is Algernon in the UK version? Could that be uncle algy? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 13:43:34 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:43:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Lily have any girl friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102425 I don't think any have been mentioned by name so far but I tend to think that there are. I don't have the book in front of me, but in the "Snape Torture" scene, doesn't it have her splashing in the lake with other girls? (Or am I remembering the scene wrong? I am rereading OotP but have not made it to that part yet) moonmyyst Gina: YES!! James is staring at a "group" of girls sitting near the lake THEN Lily gets up and comes over because Harry says one of the girls from the lake before he recognizes her as his mother. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 13:50:22 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:50:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102426 Jen: I like this idea--add in Hestia Jones or Dorcas Meadows with Alice and Luna's mom, and Lily may have had her own group of friends and allies! That would be a very powerful group from what little we know so far: Lily the charms expert, Alice the Auror, Hestia or Dorcas the transfiguration experts perhaps, and Ms. Lovegood as the mysterious DOM ally? That's a group that could give the Marauders some trouble ;). James and Sirius *did* eye Lily's wand 'warily' in the OOTP Pensieve scene--maybe they had a bad experience, getting on the wrong side of Lily's wand? Hehe. Served them right, no doubt. Gina: What about Amelia Bones? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 13:51:45 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040622135145.4985.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102427 There is something that keeps popping up in my mind on this one. We are assuming that the WW put the elves into enslavement. I think that we are making a wrong assumption here. I do not have the book in front of me but didn't Hagrid make a comment about this in GoF when Hermione tried to get him to join S.P.E.W.? Also look at the refusal of the elves to give up their posts and find it offensive to suggest it. I think that they magically placed themselves in that position. They were not forced. And to find themselves asked not to perform that service after placing themselves in that position would be highly offensive to them. moonmyyst (looking for someone to shoot a "canon" at her theory) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 13:54:19 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:54:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape -- DE or not DE? (Re: Some questions/c omments about GoF) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102428 One could easily read this as Snape badgering Quirrell to get the stone for him, which is what Harry does. Maybe Harry's not so wrong in his interpretation. It's possible that that is the way that Snape is playing it, pressuring Quirrell into getting the stone for him and ultimately for voldemort but in reality Snape is doing this to gain information, to see how close Quirrell is to getting the stone so that he can prevent it when the time comes. Janelle But this is like entrapment! DD would not want Snape to scare Quirrell into taking it THEN stop him from doing it. Maybe we are wrong and Snape REALLY IS a bad guy.... Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 22 14:01:47 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:01:47 -0000 Subject: Speculating about Narcissa. Wwas: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102429 > Mandy here: > I want to add Narcissa Black into Lily's group. Mainly because we > need an old friend of Lily's that is still alive. One who can give >us some concrete canon about Lily in school. > Darrin wrote: > Lily was a Muggle-born. Narcissa Black would have scratched her own > eyes out rather than be Lily's friend. Mandy here: Are yes, but we don't know that. Granted, we don't know she wouldn't either. But as we know so little about Narcissa Black Malfoy it leaves room for all sorts of fun speculation about who she was as a school girl and who she eventually grew up to be. One thing we do know is Narcissa has two sisters, one is really, really bad and the other is really, really good. So I think Narcissa could go either way at this point. Or at least, could have gone either way as a school girl. We do know whatever she believed in school, she eventually allied herself to the dark side with her marriage to Lucius Malfoy. Although, just because she's married to Lucius doesn't mean she has to share all he values to the extreme he does. It could have been an arranged marriage of convenience, where she still holds onto some of the good that lives in her sister, Andromeda, veins. But, on the other hand, she might be as extreme has her insane Aunty Black. Although if anyone in the family takes after Sirius mum, it has to be Bellatrix. Speculating that Narcissa was actually more like Andromeda than Bellatrix in school, and that Narcissa was in Gryffindor and not Slytherin, and who was friends with both pure and non pure bloods, and then turned her back on them all when she married. Either by choice or not, is more interesting to me than believing she was just born bad and stayed bad her whole life. Where's the struggle in that? Mixing the bag up a little, and going against what I would consider the obvious choice is a little more fun. Cheers, Mandy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 14:22:20 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comm ent on the Shipping Controversy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102430 GEO: Except we know that he didn't do it. It was his mother's sacrifice that gave him the protection to defeat Voldemort. In short he didn't do anything and I for one don't think he has the ability to defeat Voldemort especially since Voldemort can even give such a powerful wizard like Dumbledore such a difficult time. >Gina: What if the ancient magic was a spell meaning when Lily died ALL her POWER went to Harry? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 14:23:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:23:39 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: <0a6301c457e6$31fb8bc0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102431 June wrote: > That's all very well, Hermione's good intentions to help with the house > elf situation, but what if Ron has a point? Maybe he's being way too > complacent, but what if there is something to what he says? Remember, > house elves do have their own brand of magic, and, I suppose when push > comes to shove, they know how to use it. What if they do live to serve? > Now, poor Winky has really been abused most horribly, and she can't be > the only case, but what if Ron's just a little bit right? How do you > work it so both elves and wizards have a win-win situation? Ginger wonders: June, I am so glad you asked. You may kick yourself for this later, but you have given me the foot in the door for my theory. We know that the elves are enslaved. This goes against our *human* view of rights, as it should. Slavery within the human world ought to be reviled for the evil it is. Slavery designed by race or gender is a double abomination. However, we are talking about elves here. I personally don't know any, nor do I expect to meet one. The closest thing I have come in real life to understanding their devotion is that of nuns or monks who bind themselves to service. Were I in the shoes of the trio, I would have sat Dobby down and asked for a detailed explanation. Until then, the only fair question is "what do the elves want?" In my almost-a-year-old post, I proclaimed that I was of the opinion that elves are praise-junkies. (Thank you, Hunter Green for the first response to, of even mention of, that post!) To answer your question, June, of how can there be a win-win situation: Give them the choice. Let's go back to the nuns. Not being Catholic, I do not know the correct terminology. Has everyone seen the Sound of Music? Ok, let's go from there. Maria enters the abbey, during a training stage. She hasn't made her vows yet, so is free, but can choose to serve if that is her decision. Then the Top Nun, encouraging her to "climb every mountain", sends her off to Casa von Trapp (by bus, so much for the climbing). She is now able to see both sides of the world. She is free to choose. She then makes her choice. She could have gone the other way. So let's have that be the elfin way. Have a training period, and then let them choose between slavery or servitude (or, what the heck, let them be game show hosts). I'd put 10 sickles and 3 knuts up that they choose slavery. I'd put more than that up that if the Hogwarts elves went to Dumbledore and asked for wages that he'd give them to them. Should the elves want to be free, then that should be their right, but if they prefer enslavement, for reasons we humans can't understand, then who are we to judge? As things stand in the WW, we don't know. We only see Dobby, who is unhappy being enslaved, but wants to serve; Winky, who is unhappy being freed, and is now too unhappy to do much of anything; and Kreacher, who wants to be enslaved, but not to the person to whom he is enslaved. We also see the Hogwarts elves at a glance. They seem happy. They may well be. Who knows? We need more information, and I think the WW does too. If it is not settled in the next two books, I vote for the "training with choice" program. Ginger, who has a gut feeling that those elves at Hogwarts are pretty darn happy. And that elves are praise-junkies;-) From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 14:33:36 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:33:36 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > This could mean that the Prewett brother was possibly living with > them at the time, or at least the twins were being taken care of by > Molly, while their father was at work for the Order. With all of the > other children they had, not many would question whom the twins > actually belonged to. Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the first > time around and they live in a more country setting without neighbors > so I wouldn't think too many people would have questioned it. > The older boys Charlie and Bill would have been about 7 and 9 at the > time of Voldy's downfall but if the twins always pretty much lived > with them, and even if they were aware of the truth, they grew up > with the twins as their brothers and wouldn't have thought to say > anything, especially if Molly had forbidden them. > Although we don't know when exactly the twins real father may have > died, I take it from what Mr. Weaseley said at the World Cup that it > may have been at the height of Voldemort's terror. This could mean > that the twins may have just been born. This fits quite nicely with my own theory: Do we know Ginny's birthday? Perhaps Their mother was staying with the Weasleys right after the birth of her daughter, while their father was off working for the order. Maybe she too was killed by LV, or died during childbirth, leaving the Weasleys to care for their 3 children - Fred, George and Ginny. Remember Molly says "that's the whole family" before Ginny even has a chance of becoming a prefect. I believe Charlie was described as resembling the twins, while Bill resembled Percy and Ron - so maybe Charlie is a Prewett too. Remember also that Ginny reacted similarly to Harry when she was up close to the Dementors (shaking in the corner, on the train). I don't think her experience in CoS would have brought that about, so maybe she witnessed something happening to her parents as well. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 22 14:46:43 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:46:43 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: <1ee818a804062121416d76d3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102433 > K > Narcissa *Black*? As in the ancient house of 'we hate muggles' > Blacks? And muggle-born Lily? I suspect has Narcissa been a friend of Lily's she might well have been scorched off the tapestry like Andromeda was. > imamommy > Well, how about Andromeda then? > Thren: > At school, or just in general? I suppose it depends on how far the > socialising went. I'd be inclined to leave it at some people we don't know about yet- after all, Hagrid sent off requests to friends of James and Lily. They can't *all* have been only James' friends. Mandy here: I'm sure they weren't all James friends. I'm just playing with this idea that it's one of the `bad' guys that hold the key to who Lily Evens was. Why? I think it would be interesting for Harry to have to seek out the dark side to find the answers. It also might explain why we haven't heard form any of Lily's friend up to now. No canon just speculation. ;-) Kids can get away with a lot in school as to who their friends are. Especially boarding school where they are away from home. Narcissa could have had all sorts of friends that her parents didn't know about. It all depends on where her sympathies lay as a school girl. With Andromeda or Bellatrix? Or neither? I'm sure both of her sisters would have had something to say about who her friends were in school, but until we know more about who Narcissa is, we can't know what she was like at Hogwarts. What if Narcissa and Andromeda were in Gryffindor, where Bellatrix was in Slytherin? Coupled that with the age difference, we have room for some non pureblood fraternization. Wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa was in Gryffindor the same year as Lily? They would have slept in the same room together for 7 years. You get to know some one pretty intimately when you share a room for 7 years. As for scratching off Narcissa's name from that tapestry for befriending a muggle born in school? I don't think so. Firstly it's not Narcissa parents tapestry, it her aunts. Even if Sirius's mum was that concerned about her niece, I think Narcissa's mum would have had something to say about the extended family making such a harsh judgment on her daughter at such a young age. And even if Aunty Black made such a decision, she would have restored Narcissa to full Black glory on her marriage to Lucius Malfoy. As I said this is total speculation and fantasy and I should properly should get myself of to fandom with this. If I wrote fanfic which I don't. But I just thought I throw the idea out there. Cheers Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 14:50:01 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:50:01 -0000 Subject: Speculating about Narcissa. Wwas: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102434 Mandy: > Speculating that Narcissa was actually more like Andromeda than > Bellatrix in school, and that Narcissa was in Gryffindor and not > Slytherin, and who was friends with both pure and non pure bloods, > and then turned her back on them all when she married. Either by > choice or not, is more interesting to me than believing she was just > born bad and stayed bad her whole life. Where's the struggle in > that? Mixing the bag up a little, and going against what I would > consider the obvious choice is a little more fun. Jen: It's a possibility, but I doubt Lucius would be attracted to her if she was so open-minded. He needs someone who thinks like he does to further his goals. I don't perceive Narcissa as being born bad so much as being surrounded by mostly-prejudiced people her whole life. OTOH, maybe Lucius was attracted to her for her ideaological differences, then he wore her down. Their marriage could be on the rocks and she wants out, but can't leave him for all those reasons people stay together. We are going to see more of Narcissa now, as JKR told us in the BookDay chat. It seems more likely, with the available evidence, that Andromeda would have known and possibly been friends with Lily. As Sirius' favorite cousin and around the general age of the Marauders, the group likely would have met her. Her ideaology would be more similar to members of the Order if she married a Muggle. I'd really like to know more about Andromeda. All we have is the passing mentions of her in OOTP, enough to assume she's alive since no one tells us otherwise. Tonks speaks of her in the present-tense, anyway. She could be in there only to expand on Sirius' story, show what his family was like, blasting people off the tapestry for any number of offenses! I hope not though. Someone has to come forward to give us info on Lily and here's my short-list: Andromeda Hestia Jones Lupin Alice (after her miraculous recovery, now that Lucius is in Azkaban and can't drug her ) Jen Reese From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 14:32:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:32:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102435 Gina wrote: > If Hermione was the helpful friend why did she tell Harry to just > tell Cho how ugly he thinks she (Hermione) is? He then says, "I > don't think you're ugly". Del : Maybe simply because Hermione doesn't have the emotional range of a teaspoon (not meaning that you do, mind you) and she realizes that Cho might very well be jealous of Harry and Hermione's close friendship. After all, her own boyfriend had exactly the same problem the year before. And Hermione also knows that the best way to tell a teenage girl that you like her is to tell her she's pretty, and inversely the best way to say that you don't like a girl is to say she's ugly. Hence the piece of advice. Gina wrote : > I say Hermione knows Ron likes her now, but she likes Harry and he > is ignoring the fact that she is a girl. She wonders if Ron has > noticed why hasn't he and was fishing for a response! Del replies : I'm not sure Hermione had realised that Ron didn't see her as a girl until his famous "Hermione, Neville's right, you're a girl !" I guess she just assumed that they both knew she was a girl, just like she knows they are boys. And just because one of the boys had a problem doesn't mean the other must have the same problem. In other words : Hermione has no reason to doubt that Harry sees her as a girl. Gina responding: Being a girl that had all guy best friends I still have to disagree. I have been in the situation where I had two friends - one wanted to go out with me and the other seemed completely indifferent. Having been "one of the guys" up to that point it was intriguing that one of them had started liking me at first, but then became annoying because he became jealous of everything I did which put a damper on what WAS a great friendship. Eventually I realized I was fond of my other friend, but I could not say anything because I was afraid what the other one would say or how he would feel. This was aggravating because I did not know if a)the other guy still thought of me as a tomboy and thus not interested in dating me OR b)he did like me but would not say anything because he knew as I did it would upset the other guy! Having said all that - I think it infuriated Hermione because of Ron's tactless statement about HEY YOU"RE A GIRL not because she actually wanted to go out with Ron. I think she was later intrigued that a boy actually liked her after Draco and Pansy always saying how ugly she is, but she did not like Ron that way. I think in OOTP she is JUST starting to realize that she may really like Harry, but we will have to see. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 14:56:01 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:56:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's Message-ID: <11a.33d328e2.2e09a281@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102436 In a message dated 06/19/2004 10:09:44 PM Central Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > However, one argument against it is that the twins, Ron, and Percy > favor Arthur Weasly while Bill and Charlie favor Molly. > > Potioncat > > Not according to GOF. Charlie is described as being stocky . . like the twins. Ron is lanky like Percy and we also find out that Bill is tall. I do think that Fabian and Gideon were probably Molly's brothers. I also think that Fred and George were born to Molly & Arthur at roughly the same time that Fabian and Gideon were killed, hence the F & G beginning names in their honor. Molly's rather insensitive comment could have just been an oversight. Heck I'm a mom and I've caught myself about to say dumb things to my kids. (And my mom has said dumb things to my sister and myself.) Or maybe Molly sees something of her brothers in Fred and George and knowing that they came to a 'sticky end', tries to squelch it in her children. (I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Fabian and Gideon were twins.) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 14:59:28 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:59:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alice Longbottom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102437 I have always thought of this scene as Alice trying to send Neville a message. IMHO, Dumbledore knew from the start that there were two possibilities to defeat Voldemort, Harry and Neville. I think that Dumbledore told both sets of parents that their sons were targets, and the Potters did what they could and the Longbottoms did what they could. We have a good idea of what the Potters did, but we don't know what the Longbottoms did. Batchevra (who thinks that the Longbottoms may have supressed Neville's abilities and didn't tell Gran.) > > > > Gina: I have GREAT hope for Neville's parents and I fully believe something is going on here. Maybe there IS a message but Neville cannot figure it out and is too embarrassed to ask anyone for help! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 15:02:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:02:18 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102438 SS, page 286 Harry tells Hermione: "No, listen, get back and get Ron. Grab brooms from the flying-key room, they'll get you out of the trapdoor and past Fluffy?go straight to the owlery and send Hedwig to Dumbledore, we need him. I might be able to hold Snape off for a while, but I'm no match for him, really." Later on, page 296-297 Harry to Dumbledore: "You got Hermione's owl? " We must have crossed in midair. No sooner had I reached London than it became clear to me that the place I should be was the one I had just left. I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you?" Page 302 Hermione explains what she did after she left Harry to get Ron "I brought Ron round?that took a while?and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall?he already knew?he just said, `Harry's gone after him, hasn't he?' and hurtled off to the third floor." vmonte: So, how did Dumbledore know to come back? If it wasn't Hermione's letter, then what was it? Did you also notice that DD doesn't say to Harry: "What letter? Or, Hermione sent me a letter? The letter is not what tipped Dumbledore to come back. I think it was Ron's experiences that tipped him off. I'll explain later. Page 299 "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark " "Dumbledore now became very interested in a bird out on the windowsill, which gave Harry time to dry his eyes on the sheet." vmonte: So DD talks about something incredibly serious with Harry and is then distracted by a bird at the window--of course not. He knew, somehow, that at that moment Harry was going to cry. He looked away so that Harry would not be embarrassed. Page 300, About Snape "Yes, him?Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?" "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive." "What?" "He saved his life." "What?" "Yes said Dumbledore dreamily." vmonte: I wonder if Harry is going to save Malfoy at some point in time? Page 301-302 "So the Stone's gone?" said Ron finally. "Flamel's just going to die?" "That's what I said, but Dumbledore thinks that?what was it??`to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.'" vmonte: Dumbledore has a well-organized mind too. He keeps his memories in a penseive looking for links/clues etc. Page 302 "D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. "Sending you your father's cloak and everything?" "Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did?I mean to say?that's terrible? you could have been killed." "No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could " vmonte: Interesting isn't it. This is exactly what Dumbledore has been doing throughout all the books. I think that the obstacles that were set up were specifically geared for Harry, Hermione, and Ron to go through. MM chess game -- Why did MM put this as an obstacle? I think it was because she knew that Ron excels in chess. This obstacle was definitely geared for Ron. They flying-key room -- This is obviously for Harry. DD's Mirror-of-Erised -- Harry even states that DD got him acquainted with it so that he would know how it works. Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. Page 285, Snape's obstacle "Hermione let out a great sigh and Harry, amazed, saw that she was smiling, the very last thing he felt like doing." "Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic?it's logic?a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." vmonte: It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not potions. I think that out of all of these obstacles, Snape's really seems geared for Voldemort. Perhaps he believed that Voldemort would know every kind of potion there was--so comes up with a puzzle. And since Hermione is a super brain, she figures it out anyway. (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) So finally, what I'm trying to say is that Dumbledore intended for the children to go through the obstacle course. He also intended for Harry to confront Voldemort at its end. He prepares Harry for this confrontation. I think that what does take DD at a surprise was at which point in time the kids would attempt this. I think that DD is changing history (I do not believe in alternate realities, or fixed time-lines). DD created this obstacle course for the children. If he is training them for an as yet mentioned future role, he has/is changing history. He is helping Harry and gang along. The funny thing though is that when you change something you then create a NEW experience-- something that never happened before. It also means that you are taking a chance that what you create is better than what was. DD was not aware that the children had begun the obstacle course because the idea of the course was in itself new. Or the course was changed so that it would now be geared for the children to pass through. It was not until Ron entered the "new" obstacle course that DD becomes aware of when they enter. As soon as Ron has this experience it also now becomes part of DD's past experience. Yes, it all comes down to Ron=DD. I'm not an eloquent writer like Kneasy, just doing the best I can. I'm ready to be ignored or trashed! BRING-IT-ON! vivian From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 15:09:20 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040622150920.34141.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102440 jodel_from_aol wrote: The relevant information of that prophesy were that the birth would be to people who had "defied" the Dark Lord three times and that the birth would take place as the "7th month dies". Which 7th month? The 7th month of the year? or the 7th month after the Prophesy was made? So what else do we know about the circumstances regarding that Prophesy? Well, it was made on a "cold, wet night" and that the reason DD was called out in such a night was that he was giving a job interview. Just when, under normal circumstances, does a Headmaster interview prospective teachers? How about during term breaks. Hogwarts has three breaks in the academic year. There is the summer break at the end ogf June, lasting to the end of August. Not a lot of cold wet nights there, typically. There is the "Easter" break around the end of March. That one is a good deal more likely, but there is still the confusion of which 7th month. And there is the Christmas" break from mid-December until just after New Year. From that vantage point it doesn't matter which interpretation you put on "the 7th month" you are still going to end up with the end of July, and you are more likely to find the weather cold and wet than otherwise. So, barring further information -- which we may yet get -- I am going to postulate that the prophesy took place toward the end of the Christmas break around the start of the year 1980. And that Dumbledore reported the event immediately to the MoM. To help narrow this down, in OotP, Chapter 15: Professor Trelawney scowled at her, arms crossed and shoulders hunched as though wishing to protect herself as much as possible from the indignity of the inspection. After a slight pause in which she seemed to secide that the question was not so offensive that she could reasonably ignore it, she said in a deeply resentful tone, "Nearly sixteen years." This was an inspection due to Umbridge being named High Inquisitor. I also checked further and it was just before the first Hogsmead weekend on the first weekend in October. This would rule out Easter and summer. I would also like to know what the 3 times that LV was defied were. That would be interesting to read about. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 22 15:32:55 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:32:55 -0000 Subject: How did Grawp get to be so, well, *huge*? (was Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102442 Jen Reese asked: > Jen: Yes. Why, JKR Why?!? I can't read OOTP without skipping over > this chapter. I guess the giants are supposed to be another example > of an oppressd group, but that's covered by the House Elves, > Werewolfs, Goblins, Centaurs, etc. I just can't see the point. This is my take on this question. I think one of the most fundamental things JKR does with her world is undermine it. Plots of things that have been set up to seem like an enduring part of the narrative get to be relativised as the story proceeds. For example, in the first books, Hogwarts is a haven for Harry, compared to life at the Dursleys. By Book 5, that has gone. Dumbledore seems all-knowing and able to pull a rabbit out of a hat for every occasion. By POA, Harry is shocked when he realises that Dumbledore isn't all-powerful, but nevertheless, he does suggest the Time Turner. By OOP, Dumbledore is disintegrating in his role as 'wise mentor'. Sirius and James get the revisionist treatment, and even Hermione is looking shaky around the edges. One of the characters at the centre of this process is Hagrid. We start with Dumbledore's utterance (at a point in the narrative when we would suppose Dumbledore to be pretty well infallible) that he 'would trust Hagrid with his life', and from then it's downhill all the way, with Dragon eggs, rooster comedy, ineffectual teaching, Skrewts, and the whole Grawp episode. I think Grawp appears as Hagrid's faults writ large. With Lupin and the other characters Jen mentioned, JKR invites us to cut them plenty of slack as members of oppressed groups, then she sets us up (at the end of GOF) to think of Giants as the next group to be cut slack - and then lets us have it between the eyes with the reality of Grawp and his fellows. It's all part of her questioning of the boundaries of what it is to be human. I think of it as a spectrum. JKR puts a stake in the ground - say, werewolves - and asks us "what are the rights of these beings?" She then puts another one in - say, Trolls - "what about this one?" She invites us to say what we think is black, and what is white, and then taunts us with ever more delicately refined shades of grey. Are Veela sentient? What about someone who is, say 1/4 Veela? Do you think vampires might be OK? Yes? Then how do you deal with a group -Centaurs - who refuse to recognise any common ground if you do? To me, the key is questions. JKR is not really inventing a wonderful universe for us to enjoy. She's inventing a franework for posing questions which she then refuses to answer. The answers are for us to work out for ourselves. It's probably overstating it a little to say that if someone here posts something that picks a way through this moral maze, JKR will read the post and invent a being that renders that morality inadequate. But only a little, IMO. To bring it back to Jen's original question: assuming Dumbledore and Harry prevail against Voldemort, and have a free hand in building the, um, new wizarding world order, what do *you* think is the rightful place of giants in that order? Do they get the vote, for example? David From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 15:40:21 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:40:21 -0000 Subject: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102443 Jo Serenadust: > In light of all this, I found her remark about wanting to tell them > she had been made a prefect because "--I mean, prefect is something > they can understand--", to be a little, well, cold. Maybe not cold, > but certainly condescending. I just can't reconcile Hermione's very > limited interaction with her parents with a "normal", loving, parent- > child relationship. I see this in the opposite light. Hermione is someone who loves to be recognized for her hard work and her achievements. Parents are who children usually want this recognition from the most, but seeing as Hermione's parents are muggle's they're not really going to understand exactly how impressive some of the things that she's done are. So I think that by saying that prefect is something they can understand Hermione is expressing that she finally has something that she can share with her parents and get that recognition that she craves and make her parents proud of her. Janelle From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 22 14:53:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:53:39 +0100 Subject: TBAY - HEAVENLY STUDS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102444 Who would have thought that it was only a year since MADAM WHIPLASH rose like a phoenix from the carnage of Hurricane Jo? And what a year it had been. Thanks to Madam W's strictness, with both the accounts and the customers, the latest bank statement from Gringott's had more zeros than Neville's exam papers. "Time to treat myself," she thought as she watched Droopy, the freed House-Elf, hone the stiletto heels on her thigh-high black PVC boots. "I want them to shine!" she snapped. "And if you drop any of the Dragons blood stain repellent on the carpet again it'll be the thumbscrews for you my lad!" "Yes, mistress," quavered Droopy, reflecting that freedom maybe wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Not that she lacked for anything anyway. Her besotted clientele showered her with presents, so many that Kneasy, Butterbeer fancier and man of business, was listing them as a first step in launching the 'Lash out for a Loved One' Owl-Order Gift Catalogue. "After all," he'd pointed out, "a girl only needs so many Demiguise-lined Madam Malkin originals. Why not re-cycle 'em? And where they got the idea that the lining would make the robe translucent I don't know. It's intended to make some of the wearer invisible - you know, whatchacallit? Yes, spellulite, that's it!" Madam W smiled to herself. The dowdy dentist's daughter was no more, in her stead was a glittering star of the social scene, three times winner of 'The Girl Most Likely To' monthly poll in the Quibbler's Erised supplement. The door creaked open and her beloved Crankshaft, he of the gentle purr, evil yellow eyes and vicious temper, stalked in, a message parchment gripped in his snaggle teeth. Depositing the note in Madam's lap he retired to his basket, where he took up where he'd left off - battering a Kloven-hoofed Cuaron model until it fitted his toy cannon. "Not again!" expostulated Madam, "some Quidditch louts want a block booking - an after-match celebration. Oh, no. Not after that last lot. Twice I had to send out for more unguent and my Flexi-wand still hasn't recovered!" She grimaced. "Huh. Beaters - what do they know? Amateurs, all of them. Well, they can just...." She paused as she saw something that had escaped her notice. It was for the Bulgarian Quidditch Team! Victor! He of the enchantingly mangled vowels and small piggy eyes set amidst a lowering scowl. This could be interesting. She'd had no trouble twisting him round her little finger before, even though she'd been an ingenue; though that girl-to-girl chat with Madam Rosmerta and the discreet application of a few drops of 'Circe Miss - For The Saucy Miss' had definitely helped. And here he was, coming back for more. He'd forgotten all about Quidditch when he was with her, everything else had become secondary to him. He existed to cater to her every whim, he'd said so often enough. He'd even named his favourite racing broom after her - Her-me-ninny. she shrugged. Well, you can't have everything. Wait a minute! Why not? Now she knew what she wanted as a treat for herself - a little fun and games with the boys. Having Victor around would put Ron in his place - he'd been much too independent lately, and it would slow Harry down a bit too. Most of all it would put her in Bumblebore's good books. He hadn't approved of her little business venture down here on the BAY, suggesting that she needed to spend more time mastering spells rather than spelling masters. So he'd found out about Flitwick, had he? Tough. But if she could captivate Victor, the star of a Dark Magic school and deliver him soft, compliant and willing to work for the Order, happy just so long as he could worship at her feet, even old Bumble would be pleased. Oh, yes - she could do that without much trouble, and enjoy herself at the same time. Hmm:- Hermione Enchants Adoring Victor Ensuring Nasties Lose Youthful Star, Triggering Unfeigned Dumbledore Satisfaction HEAVENLY STUDS. "In more ways than one," reflected Madam, giggling quietly to herself. From technomad at intergate.com Tue Jun 22 15:56:06 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:56:06 -0500 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... Message-ID: <001201c45871$6f9e2380$f3510043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102445 I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 15:56:46 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:56:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: <20040621045844.65791.qmail@web51906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra wrote: snipping summary and other questions... > [5] Has a question arisen from this chapter > for you? Pose it please! :) Here's my question and I know it doesn't quite relate specifically to the chapter, but how on Earth did Hagrid's giantess mother and tiny little human father concieve a child? How did they meet and marry? Is there some wizarding singles network out there? Or am I just thinking too hard about this? Meri - who also shudders to think of how Fleur's veela gramdmere and human grandpere got together as well... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 16:00:32 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:00:32 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: <001201c45871$6f9e2380$f3510043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... > > Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. > > Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? I must respectfully disagree. If she were a Legilimens then she wouldn't have needed to use the Slytherins to spy while she was ferretting (ahem) about for stories in GoF. Though the thought is almost as nasty as Snape being one...bleargh. Meri From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 16:18:24 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:18:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: <013601c45810$4cdefe20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102448 | From: Alina | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 0:21 AM | > Christina: Where do you get this from? They don't keep her from doing | magic | > or from school. The few times we see them in the WW they are so out of | their | > element I don't blame them for being a bit quiet, especially with Arthur | > Weasley questioning them about muggle money and electricity. I get the | > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents. | > | > Christina in GA | [Alina responds]: | I don't know, I myself get the impression that Hermione is getting | estranged. It actually surprised me that Hermione is spending several | summers in a row with the Weasleys (with the Order in book 5). I | mean, if my | daughter was going to a boarding school, I'd want her home for | the holidays. [Lee]: Well, in GOF, Hermione was at the Weasleys because she was going to the World Cup and had only gotten there the same day as Harry or the night before. Plus, she's always sending packages home as in when she gets those tooth-flossing string mints that she knows her folks would like. :-) Ad to that, they (the whole Granger family) was more than willing to send a care package to Harry in the summer. As for OOTP, perhaps Mrs. Weasley or someone begged Hermione's parents to allow her to go to the HQ, knowing that when they brought Harry in he would need some friendly faces. I think that, if there's going to be strain, it's going to happen in the next two books, but at the moment, no. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 16:27:32 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:27:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort in the DoM, getting the prophecy (Re: How could Harry believe in the D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marie" wrote: > All I'd like to say is that had Voldemort been in the DoM wouldn't he > have taken the prophecy? It says in canon that Voldemort couldn't go > in himself for risk of being revealed to the wider wizarding > community too soon. Therefore he sets up his plan for Harry. > Voldemort only shows up out of necessity, otherwise he'd have likely > preferred the ministry ignore his resurgance and continuing along > without their interference. It's very unlikely that Voldemort was > actually in the ministry until then. He must've gotten the image in a > way other than him actually having seen it himself. > > > "Marie" Annemehr: I agree that Voldemort himself has never actually been in the DoM, technically. On the night of Mr. Weasley's attack, he was apparently possessing Nagini and seeing through her eyes. I believe he would have done the same thing (or even possessed some other animal -- a rat, maybe?) if he explored the MoM the summer after his reembodiment, or again after the attack. IMO, he never entered in his own body until the night of the battle. What I think this means is that Voldemort would not have been able to touch the prophecy that way. Remember, Voldemort has his own body now, which he would have to have left somewhere while possessing someone or something else. The body he was possessing, IMO, would not be able to touch the prophecy, so Voldemort would be able to do no more than to locate it in order to send Harry there. Entering the MoM only through possession does have the great advantage of keeping Voldemort's secret safe -- if the animal had been discovered, he could just abandon it and noone would ever know he was involved, not even if veritaserum was handy. You are quite right that Voldemort may have "seen" the inside of the MoM and DoM some other way. From what we know of Legilimency and its limitations, I'm not sure that would work. However, what if Voldemort has his own pensieve? That's a distinct possibility. If Rookwood, the ex-unspeakable, had ever been inside the prophecy room before Godric's Hollow happened, it would be a simple matter for LV to view that memory and find the prophecy that way. The same might hold if Malfoy used Imperio to send a stooge in to look at, but not touch, the prophecy; could he have had the victim remove the memory and place it in the pensieve? A pensieve would be quite believable, although we do have canon that Voldemort used the possession method to see inside the MoM, so, who knows? All we really know is that LV would have to do something to obtain an accurate mental image of the inside of the DoM in order to send it to Harry. This is interesting, though. What other real scenes might Voldemort be able to send to Harry? He could send Wormtail almost anywhere as a rat who could then turn human in order to put a memory into a pensieve. He could stage conversations to send disinformation, spy on Harry's friends and send highly edited, out of context images to destroy Harry's trust in them, the possibilities are endless. Harry's definitely going to have to get some control over that connection. Annemehr From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 16:33:00 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:33:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102450 | From: serenadust | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 0:45 AM | I don't share your impression. I found it odd and somewhat | disturbing that in the nearly 2 years from the middle of the summer | at the beginning of GoF until the very end of OOP, Hermione spends | only a week or two with her parents. During this period, she goes | from age 13 (if you accept the premise that she was born Sept. 19, | 1980) to age 15 3/4 with practically no personal contact with them, | beyond owls. I'm surprised that they even recognise her at the end | of OOP! [Lee]: And, at the end of OOTP, there was a lot of hugging and affection from Hermione's parents; estranged parents wouldn't, IMO, act in such a manner toward their daughter. I believe that Hermione is a very independent young lady who loves her folks very much. Perhaps, in her own sense of teenage rebellion, she's choosing where she wants to be, the Grangers see the Weasleys as responsible people and don't mind. As far as the whole prefect thing is concerned, that doesn't sound cold to me; it sounds like Hermione's giving them information she knows they can relate to, rather than overwhelming them with more wizarding stuff. She knows her parents can relate to things like top grades (re the OWLs) and cool titles (prefect.) As far as lying about staying at school to study and then hopping over to GP, like...tell me you didn't sometimes tell your parents one thing and do another when you were a teen? :-) And, she knew Harry really needed a boost. I'm sure that, when Dd told her what had happened, her first thought was what could she do to help Harry and be a friend and support. Telling her folks any part of the story might have been as good as divulging classified information, in her thinking. No...if there had been any estrangement, I don't think her interaction with her Mum and Dad at the end of OOPT would have been so close. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who really likes the Grangers.) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 09:06:19 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:06:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102451 Petra: > [5] Has a question arisen from this chapter > for you? Pose it please! :) Jen: >>Yes. Why, JKR Why?!? I can't read OOTP without skipping over this chapter. I guess the giants are supposed to be another example of an oppressd group, but that's covered by the House Elves, Werewolfs, Goblins, Centaurs, etc. I just can't see the point.<< HunterGreen: Neither can I. This may be horrible to say, but considering the personalities/tendencies of the giants, I can see why they were oppressed in the first place. They hardly seem more than violent creatures. The House Elves, Werewolves and Goblins I can get concerned about. I also find myself skimming over that chapter (but I'm not a big Hagrid fan either), but I sense that we haven't heard the end of the giants (or at least the end of Grawp). From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jun 22 16:45:45 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:45:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] uncle algy??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33846111.20040622094545@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102452 Gina: MGJ> Didn't someone say that the character Augustus in the US version is MGJ> Algernon in the UK version? Could that be uncle algy? You mean Neville's uncle could be a DE -- Rookwood!? And if it's really *Algernon* Rookwood, are there also a couple of dangerous DE's named Gwendolyn and Cecily?? Actually, I'm starting to wonder if any of the DE's might be sort of twisted references... I seem to recall in GoF a mention of a DE Travers who killed a woman named McKenna. -- In our world, (Bill) Travers and (Virginia) McKenna were a happily married acting couple! -- Dave From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 22 16:49:01 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:49:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] uncle algy??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102453 Gina: MGJ> Didn't someone say that the character Augustus in the US version is MGJ> Algernon in the UK version? Could that be uncle algy? You mean Neville's uncle could be a DE -- Rookwood!? And if it's really *Algernon* Rookwood, are there also a couple of dangerous DE's named Gwendolyn and Cecily?? Actually, I'm starting to wonder if any of the DE's might be sort of twisted references... I seem to recall in GoF a mention of a DE Travers who killed a woman named McKenna. -- In our world, (Bill) Travers and (Virginia) McKenna were a happily married acting couple!-- Dave Gina : where were they in the grand scheme of things? I cannot remember them for some reason! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 17:06:27 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elf Beheading In-Reply-To: <1087879552.7076.20831.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040622170627.75077.qmail@web14103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102454 Alina: I don't think Sirius could've set Kreacher free even before he offered 12 Grimmauld Place to the Order for Headquarters, because then Kreacher would've been able to tell the Malfoys that Sirius is in London and living int he old house and they'd find ways to use this information against him, they could've gotten him thrown back in Azkaban. Tyler replies: Not necessarily. The Malfoys knew that Sirius was in London for most of OotP, and nothing came of it. And I'm sure they were able to deduce where he must be hiding out. As long as the Secret Keeper didn't reveal the location of #12, Sirius was perfectly safe. Now, one could argue that while the Malfoys could not enter #12, they'd still know where it is. I've been giving this one some thought and I've come up w/ a theory. Its a little out there, admittedly, so bear w/ me. What if #12 had been moved from its original location? I mean, would the Blacks (muggle-haters to the extreme) live in a muggle neighborhood? I'm thinking maybe the house was originally in the middle of nowhere and DD used a portkey-type spell to move it to London so they'd have quicker access to the MoM. Is that possible? I know, I'm probably wrong on this one; its just a thought. ===== Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the glass as half-full. I see the glass as too big. ~ George Carlin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 17:18:11 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elf Beheading In-Reply-To: <1087879552.7076.20831.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040622171811.66051.qmail@web14106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102455 Lady Macbeth replies: I doubt very much that Kreacher would have been happy by being set free, because even though he ran to Narcissa with information, he is very much devoted to Mrs. Black and her husband - otherwise, he wouldn't be soobsessive about their belongings and about spending so much time with Mrs. Black's portrait. To be separated from that would be worse than anything else for him Tyler: Thats a good point. I still can't understand why they couldn't get rid of that mad portrait. I understand that it was stuck permanently to the wall, but couldn't they have cut a hole in the wall around the portrait in order to get it down? Then they could've patched up the hole in the wall and -voila!- bye bye Mrs. Black! Maybe they could've sent Kreacher to the Malfoy's w/ the portrait w/ orders never to come back. I wonder how the Malfoys would've reacted to having that portrait scream constantly? :) Lady Macbeth: As far as administering a cheering charm goes, it would certainly be against Kreacher's wishes, so wouldn't that be just as unethical as killing him in any manner? Tyler: I don't think it would be as unethical as killing him. I can't exactly explain why. As far as it being against Kreacher's wishes, he was already being forced to serve Sirius when he hated him. Seeing as how they were already ignoring his wishes, why not ignore them in such a way as to make him happy? ===== Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the glass as half-full. I see the glass as too big. ~ George Carlin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 17:47:29 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:47:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102456 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > I think both sides are giving the giants too much credit. They don't > sound bright enough to be able to know either way. The goblins I > understand, they have an agenda, they have reasons to go either way, > and they have normal intelligence. Combined with the fact that the > giants are so far away, I don't see why either side is bothering. You don't seem to realize that distance seems to be minimized through the use of magic. In the case of the giants, Voldemort could just bring them over with the use of several portkeys. From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:01:19 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:01:19 -0000 Subject: Speculating about Narcissa. Wwas: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Mandy: > > Speculating that Narcissa was actually more like Andromeda than > > Bellatrix in school, and that Narcissa was in Gryffindor and not > > Slytherin, and who was friends with both pure and non pure bloods, > > and then turned her back on them all when she married. Either by > > choice or not, is more interesting to me than believing she was > just > > born bad and stayed bad her whole life. Where's the struggle in > > that? Mixing the bag up a little, and going against what I would > > consider the obvious choice is a little more fun. > > > Jen: It's a possibility, but I doubt Lucius would be attracted to > her if she was so open-minded. He needs someone who thinks like he > does to further his goals. I don't perceive Narcissa as being born > bad so much as being surrounded by mostly-prejudiced people her > whole life. > > OTOH, maybe Lucius was attracted to her for her ideaological > differences, then he wore her down. Their marriage could be on the > rocks and she wants out, but can't leave him for all those reasons > people stay together. We are going to see more of Narcissa now, as > JKR told us in the BookDay chat. > > It seems more likely, with the available evidence, that Andromeda > would have known and possibly been friends with Lily. As Sirius' > favorite cousin and around the general age of the Marauders, the > group likely would have met her. Her ideaology would be more similar > to members of the Order if she married a Muggle. > > I'd really like to know more about Andromeda. All we have is the > passing mentions of her in OOTP, enough to assume she's alive since > no one tells us otherwise. Tonks speaks of her in the present- tense, > anyway. She could be in there only to expand on Sirius' story, show > what his family was like, blasting people off the tapestry for any > number of offenses! I hope not though. Someone has to come forward > to give us info on Lily and here's my short-list: > > Andromeda > Hestia Jones > Lupin > Alice (after her miraculous recovery, now that Lucius is in Azkaban > and can't drug her ) > > > Jen Reese Steph here: I always saw Narcissa as a Pansy Parkison type of character. A slytherin for sure. But if you recall in book 5 (excuse me for paraphrasing) all of the Black family believed in what Voldemort was doing (full supporters), but didn't they get a bit scared when Voldemort killed a Black family member (serius's brother?).... Supporting him out of fear...I think that's how we might see Narcissa change for the good...out of protection for her son... What do you think? Cheers, Stephanie From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 15:37:57 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:37:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione & parents In-Reply-To: <40D8491E.7546.19597A0@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > OotP, p.151 > > "'Thanks,' said Hermione. 'Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I > can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is > something they can understand.'" > > That really gives me the impression that Hermione's parents don't > understand much about their daughters life and school at all > anymore. > > OoTP, p.440. > > "'Well, to tell the truth, skiing's not really my thing,' said > Hermione. 'So, I've come here for Christmas.' There was snow in her > hair and her face was pink with cold..." > "Mum and > Dad are a bit disappointed, but I've told them that everyone who is > serious about the exams is staying at Hogwarts to study. They want > me to do well, they'll understand. Anyway,' she said briskly..." > This is the one that really makes me wonder about an estrangement. > Hermione has passed up a holiday with her parents to rejoin the > Wizarding World I think the situation is made even more curious in that we're told by Hermione, more or less, that her parents don't seem to understand *anything* about the Wizarding World ("I mean prefect is something they can understand"). Hermione chooses to spend Christmas at 12 Grimmauld Place, in the Wizarding World, as opposed to quality time with her parents, yet again. She could be owling them letters regularly possibly with explanations or at least updates of how she's doing, but you'd think some real one-on-one time is called for considering her parents apparent confusion over the Wizarding World *and* rarely ever seeing their daughter. Not to mention, that whole war with Voldemort - the muggle/born hater - thing. Yet she has, time and time again, chosen the WW over her family. It really doesn't seem like Hermione is making the greatest efforts in helping her parents understand the Wizarding World. Do they even know the danger Hermione could very well be in as a muggleborn (and one of Harry Potter's closest friends)? How much has she been telling them? What if Hermione were injured or killed? I recall Hermione getting petrified in CoS, were her parents ever even notified of what happened? It just unnerves me that if anything were to happen to Hermione because of the war, her parents may never have the foggiest clue until that body shows up on their doorstep and Dumbledore and/or the Ministry are sending their deepest condolensces. > And in this last extract - she doesn't say that her > parents understand - she says they *will* understand. It > sounds to me like they are not happy about her choice - > and she's trying to convince herself that given time they > will be. And that's an interesting adjective in that above OotP passage as well, "briskly", as if the topic were closed, but it also seems to ruffle her a bit. As if there's some possible tension there. If her parents are "a bit" disappointed, I certainly don't blame them. She seems to be almost dismissive of them and their disappointment. Now I don't want to start opening these paranoid channels of discussion... but it *almost* seems to me Hermione is purposefully distancing herself from her parents. Is it because she *knows* the danger she's put herself in and she doesn't want her parents getting some backlash from her role in the war, the Order or Harry's life? It certainly doesn't seem like Hermione is inclined to leave the Wizarding World, even if her parents demanded it of her. Would they if they found out how much danger she could potentially be in? Again, I wouldn't blame them. Hence this could be a reason why Hermione might not be keeping her parents informed of the Voldemort situation, she knows how they would react. She may also be attempting to disconnect herself from her muggle heritage to keep them safe. I'll be very interested to learn in book 6 if Hermione has finally told her parents about the Wizarding War and Voldemort. > On the contrary - their daughter enters a world they only have a > very poor understanding of - and even though they don't understand > it, they *let* her do that. I do wonder if Hermione's parents are the sort that cut the apron strings early on in life. Basically made Hermione raise herself. They trust her because she's such a *smart* and/or *self-reliant* girl. However, making your child responsible to pay for her own personal luxuries (in a RL family situation, making a child pay for his/her own CD player, for example) versus just sending your daughter to a strange world, practically never seeing her, and it's a world you don't understand? These seem to me very different things. I'm not entirely certain if that's so much trust and love in their daughter, but bordering on negligence. This could also certainly be Hermione's powers of persuasion / exploiting their ignorance that everything is peaches & cream at Hogwarts and the Wizarding World. It's frustrating knowing so surprisingly little about Hermione and her life outside of Hogwarts. We've spent time at both #4 Privet Drive and the Burrow... maybe it's time to take a peak inside casa Granger for once? annunathradien From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 15:59:05 2004 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:59:05 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102459 I have heard some excellent "clues" that seemingly support the theory of Ron (or one of the twins even) being Dumbledore...but one thing stops me from believing it myself. The fact that Dumbledore had his own childhood (remember that the OWL tester remembered when Dumbldore took his tests...did things she'd never seen before). Dumbledore has his own family (that have been only mentioned, true, but Dumbledore never lies...according to JKR.) Also, it would be a very weak plot line, indeed, if Dumbledore was Ron or a Twin and with all that foreknowledge was still unable to prevent Voldemort from taking power. From gonecrzyNSC at aol.com Tue Jun 22 14:36:18 2004 From: gonecrzyNSC at aol.com (gonecrzyNSC at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:36:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 Message-ID: <4e.2d328d2b.2e099de2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102460 In a message dated 6/21/2004 8:53:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, ariana at astele.co.uk writes: >>My immediate thought when I read that was that it would be a flashback either to the night Harry's parents died (a more complete flashback than what we've already seen), or to the events leading up to it. Or possibly something to do with the Order. Given the importance of the Marauders in PoA and OotP, I assumed that it was something to do with their generation, as that would explain why the same scene wasn't considered for CoS or GoF.<< I was thinking along the same lines. I can't remember where I read it, since I have looked at so much JKR stuff lately, but somewhere it was said that she had said she thought of starting SS with the complete scene at GH. Since HP has had dreams envisioning what LV is thinking about in several of the books and with the Dementors, he remembers hearing his mother screaming, I wonder if JKR isn't going to open 6 with Harry having a full out dream of what happened in GH. With his feelings about Sirius being so fresh, I would think he would be wide open for some nightmares. Throw in his connection to LV's thoughts and his supressed memories of the scene at GH, and he may see what happened from LV's point of view. It would give more insight to LV's thoughts on the Prophecy. BTW, this is my first post. :-D Christie Wife to Jonathan -LEO , Mommy to my two earthly angels: Avrey -4 (31 weeker 4lbs 8oz, 17 day NICU stay) , Chase- 3 (Full term! YAY Thank you March of Dimes for all your research!) , two Heavenly angels: Jonathan Matthew and Hannah Lynn b/d 3-12-99 at 23 weeks , and to the most psychotic beagle in the history of the world, Nora . Avrey's Preemie Website [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 15:14:34 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:14:34 -0000 Subject: His what ? In-Reply-To: <86.ee7b3f3.2e092d4c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: (snip) > Or it could mean "You're not [Karkaroff] his" > > Crouch Sr. knows that Karkaroff was a Deatheater and for all he (Crouch Sr.) > knows Karkaroff could still be one. I think Crouch Sr. was doing the best > that he could at that time to determine if he was safe. Nadine : I agree that Crouch Sr. was doing the best he could to determine if he was safe but I still don't think he meant Karkaroff... Did you suggest Igor Karkaroff because you think that Crouch Sr. would have associated Harry upon seeing him with Krum ? I went and reread (again) the entire passage in the book (the Madness of Mr Crouch) and I don't think Crouch Sr. ever realised with whom Harry was at the time. He was too, well, mad ! I think Crouch Sr. had a specific person in mind when he said : ?You're not... his ?? The word ?his? is printed in italic and it is a procedure often used by JKR... I still haven't got a clue what this all means. Nadine ;-) From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:27:18 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:27:18 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > I have heard some excellent "clues" that seemingly support the > theory of Ron (or one of the twins even) being Dumbledore...but one > thing stops me from believing it myself. The fact that Dumbledore > had his own childhood (remember that the OWL tester remembered when > Dumbldore took his tests...did things she'd never seen before). > Dumbledore has his own family (that have been only mentioned, true, > but Dumbledore never lies...according to JKR.) > > Also, it would be a very weak plot line, indeed, if Dumbledore was > Ron or a Twin and with all that foreknowledge was still unable to > prevent Voldemort from taking power. Thats because you can't change the past and thus the future in the HP universe. Harry and Hermione's adventure in Time Turning proves it in POA. From abbid at carterassoc.com Tue Jun 22 15:33:50 2004 From: abbid at carterassoc.com (amdorn) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:33:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione's attachment to her parents and peers In-Reply-To: <001501c45841$4693daf0$0202a8c0@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102463 > Christina in GAsaid, > > "I get the > > impression that Hermione is pretty close to her parents." > > Alina replied, > "I myself get the impression that Hermione is getting > estranged." Snip> > > SnapesRaven: > Snip > What I want to say is that I don't think Hermione has become estranged from her family. She simply involves in her life as a witch which doesn't automatically end outside school but will (as I see it) be her future as well. (*grins*: [her] 'past present and future'!) > > [I remember that at her age I wanted to do a lot alone/without my parents. Alright, let's not discuss my parents here. ; ) ] > OK, I just had an idea. What if, Hermione's parents have already been killed? I know kind of out there but bare with me with the logic. One: What have we heard of Hermione's parents since the end of GOF? Only what Hermione says. Do we know that she has been in direct contact with her parents, as in face to face converstaions, or phone calls? An owl letter from her parents would be very easy to forge. Two: We know that she can keep secrets, big secrets as in third year. If she knew about their deaths, could she be forced to keep this information secret at the orders request? What if the order was keeping a secret from Hermione? I just don't know how far they would go for the "good". Three: Estrangement is a possibility, but a whole year? I think even the most amazing parents in the world would want to at least see their daughter in the flesh rather than just hear news in letters. Four: I don't want to think that Hermione would lie to Ron or Harry but possibly the whole story about skiing was a lie. Or possibly a defense mechanism. Pretend that they are still around instead of admitting to everyone else that they are gone. Fifth: This is really not necesarily logic for a Death scenario but instead an alternative. What if her parents are under the fidelius charm as soon as GOF ended. It could explain Hermione at headquarters early and the convenient way she just sidestepped christmas. Hermione might not even know all of this information. I really don't want to think Hermione or any character in the order would lie about something as big as this. But I would not put it past certain characters (*cough*Dumbledore*cough*) to demand the secrecy of certain events. Especially before the end of OoTP. I do know that if something should happen to Hermione's parents, out of Ron or Harry, I think Harry would be better able to understand Hermione's emotions. Just a thought to chew on. Please let me know how I could be wrong. I really don't want this theory to hold any water. It is just too heartacheing. Amdorn From siskiou at vcem.com Tue Jun 22 18:40:22 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:40:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: References: <004e01c457cb$81073f90$a11ba8c0@KIMBERLY> Message-ID: <62884428.20040622114022@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102465 Hi, Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 2:51:35 AM, paul_terzis wrote: > Krum > (who is an adult) is considering Harry (who is 4 years younger) as > an equal rival in love, which is illogical without probable cause. But then, logic isn't usually associated with romantic entanglements. > Wherever there is smoke, there is fire. And maybe the smoke is related to a different fire ;) When you wrote this: > It is common knowledge that we are seeking > for the treasure far on the horizon while the treasure is always > under our own nose. I thought is sounded very much like Hermione and Ron, in a way. I sometimes think Hermione may feel she could do "better than Ron" and runs into conflict with her own emotions, but may find out that Ron is the one after all. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:46:15 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:46:15 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102466 casmir2012 wrote: > I have heard some excellent "clues" that seemingly support the > theory of Ron (or one of the twins even) being Dumbledore...but one > thing stops me from believing it myself. The fact that Dumbledore > had his own childhood (remember that the OWL tester remembered when > Dumbldore took his tests...did things she'd never seen before). > Dumbledore has his own family (that have been only mentioned, true, > but Dumbledore never lies...according to JKR.) > > Also, it would be a very weak plot line, indeed, if Dumbledore was > Ron or a Twin and with all that foreknowledge was still unable to > prevent Voldemort from taking power. vmonte responds: Good comments Casmir. I've already posted comments on Marchbanks, who tested DD during his NEWTS, not Owls (page 711,OOTP,U.S. version). NEWTS are taken in a students 7th year. They are the equivalent of Advanced levels (A levels) in England, which are required for University entry. NEWTS seem to be important for job placement after Hogwarts. If Ron is sent back at some point during sixth year he could very well enter Hogwarts as a transfer student would. Ron may seem average to us, but since he is going far back in time, he may very well know spells that have not even been invented yet. My guess is that Ron will be able to communicate with Harry and Hermione. He may take a piece of Sirius's mirror back in time and communicate as with walkie-talkies. It may be useful for Ron to check out the Hogwarts of that time for possible clues. (If he finds something of importance there he could always burry it, leaving instructions for Harry and Hermione as to where to find it.) Believe it or not I hate time-travel stories. But for some reason it seems to make sense for the HP series. I wouldn't mind if I was wrong though. I like surprises. It's just that it doesn't happen often. vivian From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 19:18:39 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:18:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102467 | From: finwitch | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:19 AM | Hermione and her SPEW - well, if she was to truly help the elves | free, to get well-treated, respected etc. Why, I ask, why did she NOT | give the elves some respect by asking what they want instead of | coming up with things like "pay, clothes, retirement...". After all, | that's what the conditions of work with Guilds/Unions was about: What | the Workers wanted and then a compromise with the employers to get | some of it. Hermione begins her SPEW and protests without speaking to | anyone involved... | | -- Finwitch [Lee]: Hermione is seeing things with, in this case, muggle eyes and values, IMO. She sees what she considers enslavement; the things she was brought up to know and the value system she's been given calls for workers to have decent wages, time off, etc., etc. For them to not desire this is unfathomable to her...probably, she thinks, the result of brainwashing. So, considering her upbringing, she's acting in, what she considers, a normal manner. She probably doesn't realize that there are some enchantments, personal or otherwise, which bring house elves to serving one family, etc. Perhaps, Harry hadn't mentioned what Dd had said about that...well, why should he?...He's had enough on his mind and this is a most trivial item. Perhaps, Hermione will learn the secret of how house elves work and discover that things are really not what she thinks and that it's more a loyalty and need-to-serve thing rather than slavery. And, maybe, she might be able to get a change of attitude going and foster respect for house elves, punishment for elf abuse, etc. Who knows.... :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 19:58:29 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:58:29 -0000 Subject: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > > > "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > > > The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're > > agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" > > (p 346, US edition). > > > > ...edited... > Geoff: > I've just been reading that bit and I would put a different > interpretation on it. By the fact that were are not told that Harry > and Co. did not sign the paper, I assume that they did which would > bring it into line with the quote above. Perhaps Hermione felt that > they had now gathered all the likely members of the DA at that point > in time. Asian_Lovr2: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't 25 people show up to meet with Harry, Hermione and Ron, and wheren't there 28 signatures on the list? I recall the number 28 being specifically mentioned. Next, we must remember the people in real life and people in books don't speak in absolute truths. We generalize, we summaries, we paraphrase, we give people the yada-yada blah-blah shortened versions of things. I think the people signing the 'List' were agreeing not to betray the DA Club. That's not specifically how Hermione stated it, but that seems to be how it functioned. Someone told Seamus without any ill consequences, and he was allowed to join after the signing. Now it is possible, that Seamus was approach before the 'signing', when the other potential and prospective members were recrutied for the Hog's Head meeting. Seamus many have still bore ill feelings toward Harry at that time and chose not to attend the meeting. Then later, when he and Harry had reconciled, it was Seamus who approached the group with a request to now join. So, independant of Seamus, I think the charm on the DA Club member list, was a promise not to betray the Group, rather than a blanket across-the-board promise not to speak about it at all. Just one man's opinion. Steve From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 20:04:42 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:04:42 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102469 vmonte: What if the brain that attacked Ron was of the recently deceased Nicolas Flamel? And if so, does Ron know have his memories? It has to be someone of importance to be in the DoM? Right? Just a thought. vivian (This may double post. My original post is missing in action. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 20:17:18 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:17:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's Powers & Protection -What but not How and Why In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Sarah wrote: > > I don't know if I'm just being excessively dumb here but I thought > we all knew exactly why Harry survived and Voldemort was defeated - > his mothers sacrifice ...edited... > > Can anyone clear this up? > vmonte responds: > > Dumbledore says the same thing in the begining of SS/PS. That they > may never know exactly what happened on that night (when he is > talking to MM in front of the Dursley house). > > I think that they understand that Lily somehow protected Harry, but > they are not sure of the exact events that led up to it. I'm > guessing that DD knows that Lily saved Harry with an old spell > because Snape told him. How else would he even know that much? > Does that mean that Snape was there? Or did a painting at the house > tell DD? > > vivian - I'm confused even more now... Asian_Lovr2: There is a difference between knowing WHAT happened, and knowing how or why it happened. I think this is that case with Harry and the night Voldemort was defeated, they have been able to piece together what happened that night, but, given that a Death Curse has never been blocked before or after, they still don't know the intricate details of how or why it happened. Just a thought. bboy_mn From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 22 10:39:00 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:00 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D8573F.28182.1CCCB80@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Constant abuse of Neville? > > Incident 5: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.97-98. > > Continuation of the previous incident. Neville is obviously working > hard (with Hermione's help which she shouldn't be giving). Snape > carries out his threat to test the potion on Trevor the Toad. It > works as designed. > > Now, this one interests me - because Neville *is* working hard - > Hermione is helping but Neville is doing the work. We know Snape > can tell if this potion is mixed correctly by its colour - so he > presumably knows Neville has mixed it correctly. He administers to > Trevor - and when it work restores Trevor with an antidote - and > then he takes 5 point from Hermione for helping Neville. > > He doesn't punish Neville at this time, for accepting her help. > Even though, frankly, it's tantamount to cheating. I can't fault > him at all here. It interests me, too, because it's clear that he knows all along that Hermione is helping Neville, but he doesn't stop her. He doesn't separate them to put a stop to it, he just lets it continue and at the end docks a few points. I see this as the mark of a good teacher: he isn't interested in killing Neville's toad, or making Neville suffer, so he lets N and H break the rules in the interest of helping N actually learn something. But he can't let the students think that they can fool him, so he re-establishes his authority afterwards by inflicting a mild punishment. It's the old "I have eyes in the back of my head" treatment, just to make sure they don't get the idea that they can get away with anything in his class. > > McGonagall uses this technique: > > "Professor McGonagall pulled herself back through the portrait > hole to face the stunned crowd. She was white as chalk. > > 'Which person,' she said, her voice shaking, 'which abysmally > foolish person wrote down this week's passwords and left them > lying around?'" > Yes, and who DID leave the passwords lying around? Why, it was Neville again! So if Snape is guilty of abuse by publicly chastising Neville for a fault, then so is McGonagall. Which is to say, that such actions are not abusive at all, they are an accepted part of the world of Hogwarts, and everyone knows it. Wanda From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 21:02:07 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:02:07 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" > wrote: > > I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... > > > > Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. > > > > Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? Meri: > I must respectfully disagree. If she were a Legilimens then she > wouldn't have needed to use the Slytherins to spy while she was > ferretting (ahem) about for stories in GoF. Though the thought is > almost as nasty as Snape being one...bleargh. Geoff: Neither would she need to be lurking as a beetle in Hermione's hair or on a statue or a windowsill.... From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 21:09:23 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:09:23 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" > > wrote: > > > I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... > > > > > > Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. > > > > > > Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? > > Meri: > > I must respectfully disagree. If she were a Legilimens then she > > wouldn't have needed to use the Slytherins to spy while she was > > ferretting (ahem) about for stories in GoF. Though the thought is > > almost as nasty as Snape being one...bleargh. > > Geoff: > Neither would she need to be lurking as a beetle in Hermione's hair > or on a statue or a windowsill.... Jason: Except that she was banned from the Hogwarts grounds. Much less the hospital wing or individual classrooms. Eye contact is often essential. :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 21:18:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:18:40 -0000 Subject: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > > > > > > "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > > > > > The quote from the book has Hermione saying "So if you sign, you're > > > agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to" > > > (p 346, US edition). > > > > > > ...edited... > > > > > Geoff: > > I've just been reading that bit and I would put a different > > interpretation on it. By the fact that were are not told that Harry > > and Co. did not sign the paper, I assume that they did which would > > bring it into line with the quote above. Perhaps Hermione felt that > > they had now gathered all the likely members of the DA at that point > > in time. Steve: > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't 25 people show up to meet with > Harry, Hermione and Ron, and wheren't there 28 signatures on the list? > I recall the number 28 being specifically mentioned. > Geoff: I don't remember that being mentioned and, having just looked at the relevant pages, I can't see any reference. Perhaps I've missed it? Going back to previous points raised, don't forget that Umbridge specifically listed Harry's name as being on the parchment. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 21:22:25 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:22:25 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > > > Meri: > > > I must respectfully disagree. If she were a Legilimens then she > > > wouldn't have needed to use the Slytherins to spy while she was > > > ferretting (ahem) about for stories in GoF. Though the thought > is > > > almost as nasty as Snape being one...bleargh. > > > > Geoff: > > Neither would she need to be lurking as a beetle in Hermione's > hair > > or on a statue or a windowsill.... > > Jason: > Except that she was banned from the Hogwarts grounds. Much less the > hospital wing or individual classrooms. Eye contact is often > essential. :-) Geoff: I think it would be very difficult for an Animagus lurking as a beetle to get a decent eye contact with a full size person.... From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 21:44:06 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:44:06 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > > > > > Meri: > > > > I must respectfully disagree. If she were a Legilimens then she > > > > wouldn't have needed to use the Slytherins to spy while she was > > > > ferretting (ahem) about for stories in GoF. Though the thought > > is > > > > almost as nasty as Snape being one...bleargh. > > > > > > Geoff: > > > Neither would she need to be lurking as a beetle in Hermione's > > hair > > > or on a statue or a windowsill.... > > > > Jason: > > Except that she was banned from the Hogwarts grounds. Much less the > > hospital wing or individual classrooms. Eye contact is often > > essential. :-) > > Geoff: > I think it would be very difficult for an Animagus lurking as a > beetle to get a decent eye contact with a full size person.... I was always under the impression the Legilimency was something that could be learned, perhaps not easily, but learned nonetheless. We know Rita is a skilled witch. She did learn to become a beetle, after all. Perhaps now that she cannot transform without risking Hermione's wrath, she will dedicate herself to the study of Legilimency and use her new skills in future interviews. MaggieB From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 21:53:22 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:53:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's attachment to her parents and peers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amdorn" wrote: > OK, I just had an idea. What if, Hermione's parents have already > been killed? > > I know kind of out there but bare with me with the logic. > > I do know that if something should happen to Hermione's parents, out > of Ron or Harry, I think Harry would be better able to understand > Hermione's emotions. > > Just a thought to chew on. > > Please let me know how I could be wrong. I really don't want this > theory to hold any water. It is just too heartacheing. I think you can relax, then because this theory isn't watertight . "Ah, Harry!" said Mr. Weasley, turning from Hermione's parents, whom he had been greeting enthusiastically, and who were taking it in turns to hug Hermione. OOP, Scholastic pg. 868 I still think that there's something amiss in Hermione's relationship with her parents, but as of the end of OOP, they are still very much alive. Jo Serenadust From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 22:06:11 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:06:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione & parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102478 Now I don't want to start opening these paranoid channels of > discussion... but it *almost* seems to me Hermione is purposefully > distancing herself from her parents. Is it because she *knows* the > danger she's put herself in and she doesn't want her parents getting > some backlash from her role in the war, the Order or Harry's life? > It certainly doesn't seem like Hermione is inclined to leave the > Wizarding World, even if her parents demanded it of her. Would they > if they found out how much danger she could potentially be in? > Again, I wouldn't blame them. Hence this could be a reason why > Hermione might not be keeping her parents informed of the Voldemort > situation, she knows how they would react. She may also be > attempting to disconnect herself from her muggle heritage to keep > them safe. > > I'll be very interested to learn in book 6 if Hermione has finally > told her parents about the Wizarding War and Voldemort. > > > On the contrary - their daughter enters a world they only have a > > very poor understanding of - and even though they don't understand > > it, they *let* her do that. > > I do wonder if Hermione's parents are the sort that cut the apron > strings early on in life. Basically made Hermione raise herself. > They trust her because she's such a *smart* and/or *self-reliant* > girl. However, making your child responsible to pay for her own > personal luxuries (in a RL family situation, making a child pay for > his/her own CD player, for example) versus just sending your daughter > to a strange world, practically never seeing her, and it's a world > you don't understand? These seem to me very different things. I'm > not entirely certain if that's so much trust and love in their > daughter, but bordering on negligence. This could also certainly be > Hermione's powers of persuasion / exploiting their ignorance that > everything is peaches & cream at Hogwarts and the Wizarding World. > > It's frustrating knowing so surprisingly little about Hermione and > her life outside of Hogwarts. We've spent time at both #4 Privet > Drive and the Burrow... maybe it's time to take a peak inside casa > Granger for once? > > annunathradien This thread has been quite interesting. I, too, have wondered about Hermione and her parents but have dismissed these thoughts for several reasons: 1. JKR can't possibly cover everything about all the characters in 7 books. We hear about the other families (Weasleys, Potters, Longbottoms, even Dursleys) because they in some way are tied to the plot of HP vs LV, but the Grangers are not (at least not yet; we don't know what's coming in 6 & 7). 2. Other Muggle-born children are at Hogwarts, and JKR addressed this by simply saying that a representative from the WW would come to their homes, etc. Again, not a major plot point so not addressed in detail. 3. I think the main reason the Grangers have not visited the Dursleys is because JKR hasn't wanted them to. Again, what would be the plot value? It would, in fact, change the story if Vernon were to respond, "Oh, a dentist's child goes there? Ok, it's fine." That would take away the tension in the Dursely's and Harry's wanting to leave so badly. 4. Hermione's actions can be explained by the developmental stage she is in...separation and individuation. Friends are most important to teens. When she is home, she is surrounded by people who do not have the same experience (WW) as she. I think she may get bored, so she wants to stay where the action is. IMHO, this is not necessarily a commentary on her relationship with her parents. My main point...the Grangers just do not seem to carry enough plot value to be written about. I do think they would be pretty cool, though. Julie From gonecrzyNSC at aol.com Tue Jun 22 14:55:17 2004 From: gonecrzyNSC at aol.com (gonecrzyNSC at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:55:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye Message-ID: <12a.4477d833.2e09a255@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102479 In a message dated 6/21/2004 9:13:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: >>By the way, to me that also means that it's possible the memories Harry saw in Snape and in his pensieve weren't a hundred percent true either.<< You know, that made me think of something: Have you ever discussed something that happened with another person who was there and realized that your memory of something is totally different from theirs because you each perceived it differently? So memories can be somewhat subjective. So whatever the person puts in the pensieve is there point of view and not necessarily the reality of what actually happened... hmmmmm... Now the wheels are turning in my head. Christie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:33:40 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:33:40 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102480 casmir2012 wrote: > I have heard some excellent "clues" that seemingly support the > theory of Ron (or one of the twins even) being Dumbledore...but one > thing stops me from believing it myself. The fact that Dumbledore > had his own childhood (remember that the OWL tester remembered when > Dumbldore took his tests...did things she'd never seen before). > Dumbledore has his own family (that have been only mentioned, true, > but Dumbledore never lies...according to JKR.) > > Also, it would be a very weak plot line, indeed, if Dumbledore was > Ron or a Twin and with all that foreknowledge was still unable to > prevent Voldemort from taking power. vmonte responds: Good comments Casmir. I've already posted comments on Marchbanks, who tested DD during his NEWTS, not Owls (page 711,OOTP,U.S. version). NEWTS are taken in a students 7th year. They are the equivalent of Advanced levels (A levels) in England, which are required for University entry. NEWTS seem to important for job placement after Hogwarts. If Ron is sent back at some point during sixth year he could very well enter Hogwarts as a transfer student would. Ron may seem average to us, but since he is going far back in time, he may very well know spells that have not even been invented yet. My guess is that Ron will be able to communicate with Harry and Hermione. He may take a piece of Sirius's mirror back in time and communicate as with walkie-talkies. It may be useful for Ron to check out the Hogwarts of that time for possible clues. (If he finds something of importance there he could always burry it, leaving instructions for Harry and Hermione as to where to find it.) Believe it or not I hate time-travel stories. But for some reason it seems to make sense for the HP series. I wouldn't mind if I was wrong though. I like surprises. It's just that it doesn't happen often. vivian From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jun 22 22:40:58 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:40:58 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: <001201c45871$6f9e2380$f3510043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102481 "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... > > Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. > > Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? ------------- Oh my god, she actually report the *gasp* TRUTH!!!! I think this would actually be a possible improvement. Think of the lying, scheming Ministry oficials she could out. Arya From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:59:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:59:03 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron is the brain of Nicolas Flamel? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102482 vmonte: What if the brain that attacked Ron is the brain of recently deceased Nicolas Flamel? I wonder what that guy knew? And if so, do you think that Ron has acquired all his memories/knowledge? vivian From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 22:42:51 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:42:51 -0000 Subject: How did Grawp get to be so, well, *huge*? (was Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102483 David: > I think one of the most fundamental things JKR does with her world > is undermine it. Plots of things that have been set up to seem like > an enduring part of the narrative get to be relativised as the story > proceeds. > I think Grawp appears as Hagrid's faults writ large. With Lupin and > the other characters Jen mentioned {centaurs, goblins, house elves,werewolves}, JKR invites us to cut them > plenty of slack as members of oppressed groups, then she sets us up > (at the end of GOF) to think of Giants as the next group to be cut > slack - and then lets us have it between the eyes with the reality > of Grawp and his fellows. It's all part of her questioning of the > boundaries of what it is to be human. Jen: When reading the Grawp chapter, I do remember thinking that Hagrid and Hermione were both examples of the harm you can do when trying to help others. 'Help' in this case meaning to force an agenda on a person or creature without his/her permission or approval. So if JKR made any point for me with Grawp, it was that oppression comes in all forms, even under the guise of helping someone. I really like your analysis of what JKR does with almost all the characters, painting them in shades of gray, making the reader ask some tough questions internally. But she paints the oppressed groups in shades of gray, too. The Centaurs became pretty ugly in OOTP, and we were introduced to Kreacher. The goblins don't come across as particularly downtrodden and can take care of themselves. In fact, they seem to have the upper hand in the power relationship, courted by both the Order and DE's (giants too). David: > To me, the key is questions. JKR is not really inventing a > wonderful universe for us to enjoy. She's inventing a franework for > posing questions which she then refuses to answer. The answers are > for us to work out for ourselves. > > It's probably overstating it a little to say that if someone here > posts something that picks a way through this moral maze, JKR will > read the post and invent a being that renders that morality > inadequate. But only a little, IMO. Jen: But, I don't want that! I want a wonderful universe to enjoy. I do think the series works on different levels. JKR said in 1999: "One of the nicest things about writing for children is that you don't find them deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they don't like it." (Book Links, July 1999). So you have to wonder if all of her moral points were so intentional. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Tue Jun 22 22:48:03 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:48:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: His what ? Message-ID: <1df.23a73722.2e0a1123@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102484 In a message dated 6/22/2004 2:27:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com writes: > think Crouch Sr. had a specific person in mind when he > said : ?You're not... his ?? The word ?his? is printed in italic and > it is a procedure often used by JKR... I still haven't got a clue > what this all means. I believe he meant Voldemort. After all, he'd just escaped LV and come all this way; that makes the follow-up comment "Dumbledores?" reasonable. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkirkham at utk.edu Tue Jun 22 13:40:24 2004 From: mkirkham at utk.edu (Melanie Kirkham) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:40:24 -0000 Subject: World Book Day Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: > I was reading back through the WBD Chat and this popped out at me > > > JK Rowling replies -> I've got plans for all my characters. Actually, > this is a really good place to answer a question about Draco and > Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is > desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book > six/seven? NO! The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom > Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton! (My daughter likes TF very much > too, because he taught her how to use a diablo > > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying > something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > > Lady McBeth, not usually a shipper, but confused by this! Ann Radcliffe was a late 18th to early 19th century English author (around the time of Jane Austen). She wrote gothic romance novels, including _The Mysteries of Udolpho_ and _The Romance of the Forest_. I haven't read her novels yet, but I imagine a Draco/Hermione ship would be her kind of thing. My guess is the JKR used the reference to Ms. Radcliffe to make a joke about the questioner's gothic tendencies. melmel From t.forch at email.dk Tue Jun 22 23:24:48 2004 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:24:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: World Book Day Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040623012253.01e719d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 102486 At 13:40 22-06-04 +0000, Melanie Kirkham wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" >wrote: > > > > Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying > > something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > >Ann Radcliffe was a late 18th to early 19th century English author There is a Jenny Radcliffe posting in alt.fan.harry-potter ... I have no evidence that she is the one who posted the question(s), but at least this shows that female Potter fans by the name of Radcliffe do exist ;-) Troels Forchhammer From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jun 22 23:38:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:38:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's attachment to her parents and peers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102487 | From: amdorn | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:34 AM ...... [Lee]: Uh--then who were those mystery people hugging her at the end of OOTP in the station? I'd say they were her folks, indeed. If you can prove me wrong through Canon, please do. I can only hold to my view that Hermione is a budding young lady...in her own way, a typical teen with a bit more rebellion than she might care to publicly admit. If that doesn't work for you, consider that she knows her parents well enough to establish what they will and will not understand and, if she tells them of those wonderful things like being petrified in COS, dragons and werewolves, etc., as supportive as they are, her folks might try to keep her out of the WW for sheer terror and deep concern. So, Hermione's only going to tell them enough, so to speak. I'm sure she will have to (if she hasn't already) tell them about LV which is going to be really difficult for them to comprehend. Take a look at Vernon's reaction; take away the fact that he could care less about Harry's world or Harry, for that matter, but consider that he was, I'm sure, very confused and befuddled. Sometimes, trying to explain what seems totally unbelievable...well, it can get tough and create a stumbling block. IMHO, Hermione loves and knows her parents enough to know when the right time might be to lay some more heavy stuff on them. Until then, she's going to share what she can, in drips and drabs, trying to help them cope with this very strange, unbelievable world into which they, in part, have been thrust via their daughter's abilities. What would be really nice is if there were a book for muggle parents of magical children that would explain how things work in the WW...things like moving pictures, how a wand works...something like a tourist book. Something for those in Muggle Relations to consider. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jun 22 23:49:20 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:49:20 -0000 Subject: World Book Day Question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040623012253.01e719d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 13:40 22-06-04 +0000, Melanie Kirkham wrote: > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" > >wrote: > > > > > > Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is > > > > > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying > > > something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > > > >Ann Radcliffe was a late 18th to early 19th century English author ------ You must understnad how these questions were submitted--you went to the web site and first entered a name/nickname for yourself and then you typed in your question(s). Every question is attributed to a name. (Look at the transcript.) And a "Ms. Radcliffe" is no doubt someone who fancies Dan Radcliffe (and, heh, who can blame her!) the boy who plays Harry. Arya From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 22 23:54:38 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:54:38 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D9535E.26847.3FA533@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102489 On 22 Jun 2004 at 12:33, (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The wrote: > > [Lee]: > And, at the end of OOTP, there was a lot of hugging and affection from > Hermione's parents; estranged parents wouldn't, IMO, act in such a manner > toward their daughter. A lot of hugging and affection? Not in my opinion. "'Ah, Harry!' said Mr Weasley, turning from Hermione's parents, who he had just greeted enthusiastically, and who were now taking it in turns to hug Hermione. 'Well - shall we do it, then?' 'Yeah, I reckon so, Arthur,' said Moody. He and Mr Weasley took the lead across the station towards the Dursleys, who were apparently rooted to the floor. Hermione disengaged herself gently from her mother to join the group." In other words, when Hermione has contact with her parents for the first time in months, having bailed out on a family holiday, and having almost been killed in a battle only a short time before... she hugs her parents for a moment - and then disengages herself from her mother and walks away from her to join the Wizarding World. Now, of course, there's other potential explanations for this besides estrangement. Hermione, I think, knows what is happening and it's perfectly reasonable that even if she still has a good relationship with her parents that she might think standing with all of Harry's friends to face the Dursleys is important enough to postpone her reunion with her parents for a few minutes. *But*, I don't think what we see with Hermione and her parents at the end of OotP can be categorised as a 'lot of hugging and affection'. If that occurs - and it might - it occurs after Harry has left the scene. All we see in the book is a moment or so of contact. > I believe that Hermione is a very independent young lady who loves her folks > very much. Perhaps, in her own sense of teenage rebellion, she's choosing > where she wants to be, the Grangers see the Weasleys as responsible people > and don't mind. All possible - but it still means Hermione is still choosing the Wizarding World over the Muggle one, her parents inhabit - and that creates a distance. It doesn't have to have anything to do with love or lack of it. > As far as the whole prefect thing is concerned, that doesn't sound cold to > me; it sounds like Hermione's giving them information she knows they can > relate to, rather than overwhelming them with more wizarding stuff. She > knows her parents can relate to things like top grades (re the OWLs) and > cool titles (prefect.) But again, this is estrangement. If Hermione doesn't feel able to discuss the world she lives in for nine months of the year with her parents, that is likely to create a distance between them. Again, it's got nothing to do with love or lack thereof. > As far as lying about staying at school to study and then hopping over to > GP, like...tell me you didn't sometimes tell your parents one thing and do > another when you were a teen? :-) And, she knew Harry really needed a > boost. I'm sure that, when Dd told her what had happened, her first thought > was what could she do to help Harry and be a friend and support. Telling > her folks any part of the story might have been as good as divulging > classified information, in her thinking. Sure - but again, the same applies. Whatever her reasons, no matter how good they are, how noble they are (and personally I think it's more likely she headed to Grimmauld Place to be there for Ron and Ginny, rather than Harry - when she arrived, she certainly went to Harry because he needed her, but I think she'd more likely been told that Mr Weasley had almost been killed and so her thoughts on leaving were for the Weasleys). If she is unable to tell her parents important things like this, it's likely to be creating a distance there. > No...if there had been any estrangement, I don't think her interaction with > her Mum and Dad at the end of OOPT would have been so close. Hmm... maybe people have misunderstood what I mean when I say 'estrangement', but I can't think of a better word. Estrangement does *not* necessarily mean people's love for each other diminishes. It can mean that, sure, but it doesn't have to. A person can very easily be estranged from those they love, because their lives are so different, and it's hard to bridge the two. I'm not, for a moment, suggesting that Hermione doesn't love her parents, or vice versa. If she didn't love them, she probably wouldn't care about them understanding she is a prefect - but her life is different from theirs, in a way that they cannot understand. It's a different world, with different rules. And that is likely to create barriers even in the most loving family. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jun 23 00:14:16 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:14:16 -0400 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / References: <1087693910.6781.90849.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <009001c458b7$059c3800$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102490 >McMax :The thing is Hermione doesn't have romantic feelings >for Ron. There is nothing in the books, either obvious and/or >implied, that Hermione has feeling for Ron beyond friendship. Christina: Well, here you are, from the books, and I think it's quite obvious: (GOF, US version, p 400) "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm already going with someone." "No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!" "Oh, did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl!" Then read pages 420 - 423. That entire argument was pure jealousy of Victor Krum on Ron's part. I can't find it just now but also in GoF Hermione tells Ron that he should have asked her to the ball first if he was so bothered. Hermione is Harry's friend, that's all. She has shown no jealousy towards Cho and even tried to offer advice. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 00:36:38 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:36:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: <40D9535E.26847.3FA533@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102491 Ah--we come to the crux of the matter...semantics! | From: Shaun Hately | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 19:55 PM | Hmm... maybe people have misunderstood what I mean when I say | 'estrangement', but I can't think of a better word. [Lee]: I always see estrangement distancing as well as losing ability to love...estranged spouses, etc. I see more a situation where a separating is occurring. Let's say you've got an average-intelligence parent who has a super-genius daughter. That little gal is going to find herself separating from the parent, drifting, perhaps, into a world of intelligence which the parent can try to understand but can't really. And, so, there's a separation...but I wouldn't call it an estrangement. You're right, Shaun, we do see the word in different lights. According to my dictionary, the word estrange means: "To alienate the affections or confidence of." So, again, I don't see an alienation of affection here. | [Shawn]: | Estrangement does *not* necessarily mean people's love for each | other diminishes. It can mean that, sure, but it doesn't have to. [Lee]: See above. [Shawn]: | I'm not, for a moment, suggesting that Hermione doesn't love her | parents, or vice versa. If she didn't love them, she probably | wouldn't care about them understanding she is a prefect - but her | life is different from theirs, in a way that they cannot | understand. It's a different world, with different rules. And that | is likely to create barriers even in the most loving family. [Lee]: Same can be said for kids who go to college and the parents who might stay back on a rural farm never having done the college thing. I tend to think the word "detaching" holds here more than "estrange", but I'll take a look in the dictionary, if I have more time. Right now, I really should stop typing and put a brace on my right hand...that derned tendonitis...but, of course, I'm too stupid to do the sensible thing. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 00:42:15 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:42:15 -0000 Subject: Harry & Ron's fate In-Reply-To: <009001c458b7$059c3800$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102492 I was just reading the WDB chat and I stumbled across to entirely different posts. The first being what Ron's career will be when he leaves school and JKR says something along the lines of: If he survives. Now I just ran across this one as well: gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action! Have you seen any other posts where she suggests that Harry wont make it through as well??? Jacqui From ariana at astele.co.uk Tue Jun 22 20:08:36 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:08:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 References: <4e.2d328d2b.2e099de2@aol.com> Message-ID: <007301c45894$b42452e0$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 102493 > Ariana: > >>My immediate thought when I read that was that it would be a flashback > either to the night Harry's parents died (a more complete flashback than > what we've already seen), << > > Christie: > I was thinking along the same lines. I can't remember where I read it, since > I have looked at so much JKR stuff lately, but somewhere it was said that she > had said she thought of starting SS with the complete scene at GH. Since HP > has had dreams envisioning what LV is thinking about in several of the books > and with the Dementors, he remembers hearing his mother screaming, I wonder if > JKR isn't going to open 6 with Harry having a full out dream of what happened > in GH. With his feelings about Sirius being so fresh, I would think he would > be wide open for some nightmares. Ariana: Yay! A kindred spirit. :) You've also come up with a more fully-realised version of what I was thinking. I suspect that JKR already has a very clear idea of how things went at the Hollow, but wasn't able to use the scene because she has been mostly trapped in Harry's pov. The dream idea is a good one, since Harry now has a psychic connection to the only other survivor of that night - and the only one who would have a clear memory of it as well. It'll be interesting to see if you're right. Ariana From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 23 01:09:02 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:09:02 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: References: <40D9535E.26847.3FA533@localhost> Message-ID: <40D964CE.31620.83C5CC@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102494 On 22 Jun 2004 at 20:36, (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The wrote: > Ah--we come to the crux of the matter...semantics! Precisely! > [Lee]: > I always see estrangement distancing as well as losing ability to > love...estranged spouses, etc. I see more a situation where a separating is > occurring. > > Let's say you've got an average-intelligence parent who has a super-genius > daughter. That little gal is going to find herself separating from the > parent, drifting, perhaps, into a world of intelligence which the parent can > try to understand but can't really. And, so, there's a separation...but I > wouldn't call it an estrangement. Well, I would call it that, and I do. I work with profoundly gifted children, and that is a situation I've had to deal with more than once. Estrangement is the term we use in this situation, which is why I used it. It may not be the best term, but I can't think of a better one. Separation doesn't work for me. > You're right, Shaun, we do see the word in different lights. According to > my dictionary, the word estrange means: "To alienate the affections or > confidence of." So, again, I don't see an alienation of affection here. > | Well, the dictionary I use (Oxford, in this case The Australian Pocket Oxford is closet to hand) defines estrangement as: alienation from another. Alienation is 'being made to feel seperate from society'. It can involve a loss of affection - it doesn't have to. > > | I'm not, for a moment, suggesting that Hermione doesn't love her > | parents, or vice versa. If she didn't love them, she probably > | wouldn't care about them understanding she is a prefect - but her > | life is different from theirs, in a way that they cannot > | understand. It's a different world, with different rules. And that > | is likely to create barriers even in the most loving family. > > [Lee]: > Same can be said for kids who go to college and the parents who might stay > back on a rural farm never having done the college thing. Yes, it can. The situation is not unique to the Wizarding World by any means - it's just that is what is involved in Hermione's case. That is the point of division in her case. > I tend to think the word "detaching" holds here more than "estrange", but > I'll take a look in the dictionary, if I have more time. I wouldn't use detaching because that implies a deliberate separation to me and I'm not sure it's deliberate - it could be. But I think it's more just something that has happened. Like I say, estrangement might not be the best word - but I'm not claiming there's a lack of love shown. I just think Hermione and her parents are in very different worlds and that's creating some problems. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue Jun 22 20:41:22 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:41:22 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, true Seer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102495 Personally I think that she's a real Seer, but she transform all she see to be like her Gran or Aunt, I don't remember. She thinks that if she saw a rainbow, everyone would think that she's not up to it so she changes it for something horrible. But what she see is true. It's her interpretation who's problematic. Neville's cup and the Grim was already discussed, but I add that. In POA, she said that she saw that the exam will be about the crystal Ball. Hermione said next "what a surprise, it's her who make the exams, she didn't see anything". It seemed true, and we forgot it. But...about what was the Divination OWLs ? :D Crystal Ball! Christelle From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue Jun 22 20:24:03 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:24:03 -0000 Subject: His what ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102496 Nadine : > > I think Crouch Sr. had a specific person in mind when he > said : ?You're not... his ?? The word ?his? is printed in italic and > it is a procedure often used by JKR... I still haven't got a clue > what this all means. I took that like "you're not with Voldemort", that he verified that he's with a Dumbledore's supporter. Or maybe he meant his son, Crouch Jr/False!Moody if he knew that he's in Hogwart. Christelle From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 23:42:03 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:42:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's attachment to her parents and peers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > I still think that there's something amiss in Hermione's > relationship with her parents Heh. A friend of mine tried to convince me the other day that Hermione was some child sleeper agent for the dark-side trained by her Durmstrang-educated wizard-spy parents posing as average, mild- mannered muggle dentists. I commended her for her wild imagination, but I think she watches too much "Alias" and seen that cheesy River Phoenix movie "Little Nikita" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095532/) one too many times. ;) It's amusing the kind of conspiracy theories that can spawn when you have such enticingly little information about a subject. annunathradien From quartierlatin1968 at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 23 00:18:21 2004 From: quartierlatin1968 at yahoo.ca (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:18:21 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang locale: Latvia CON Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102498 I see one fatal objection to the theory that Durmstrang is in Latvia: mountains. The highest point in Latvia is only 300 m above sea level, and the surrounding areas of northern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, etc are equally low-lying. If Krum goes for recreational flying through the mountains around the school, he's got to be doing it somewhere else. However, a location around the Baltic does explain how the school comes to have a German name but a largely Slavic student body and staff. I suggest northern Sweden or Finland as attractive alternatives: they would offer (1) mountains, particularly on the Swedish end; (2) lakes, particularly on the Finnish end; (3) cold weather and long nights in winter; and (4) a strong historical connection, through the Baltic trade routes, with both Germany and Slavic lands (especially Russia). From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 00:34:25 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:34:25 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading & Harry's "disturbing" dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Lady Macbeth wrote: > Personally, I agree with you. However, there are many who would not, and I > am certain that Jo is one of them. In writing OotP, she made a very vivid > point about what Harry and Co. thought of the elf heads on the wall. That > suggests that it's also how she (as the writer) feels. Yes, it WOULD be the > humane thing for him.... > There are even some people who are that way with pets - my husband > is one of them. He let his dog suffer from deteriorating old age and > complications that go with it > For some, humane is letting a person or creature (or Kreacher) suffer on in > life with the hope that they will some day "get better". But Kreacher didn't seem sick or infirm to me, just old. Perhaps a bit sick in the head, but he certainly seemed coherent enough to throw insults at the "mudblood" and "blood traitors". He was also well enough to search out Narcissa and screw over Sirius & Harry. He was seemingly only "suffering" because he was being forced to stay in the house of a master he didn't respect and make way for people Mistress Black considered scum. Should we kill something just because it's just old, ornery and a bit senile? However, in regards to Kreacher, my thoughts tend to linger on what he might represent in Harry's "disturbing" dream at the beginning of OotP. The one where his parents wouldn't speak to him, Molly was holding a dead "Kreacher" and Ron & Hermione were wearing crowns. Many have speculated that the dream was merely foreshadowing later events in OotP. Dead Kreacher represented Sirius (and Sirius falling through the veil). Molly is there because of her boggart scene. R & Hr in "crowns" represent their prefect status. I tend to agree with this, but I'm also curious on if it might represent something else. This may seem like a crazy tangent, but I was wondering if the dream may represent suicide, specifically a Harry suicide. Harry, by the end of OotP, does seem to significantly consider the idea of suicide ("Let the pain stop..." "... then I can be with Sirius"). Kreacher would have been honored had Sirius sliced off his head and mounted it on the wall like a trophy, just like his ancestors before him. Death, or suicide, over dishonor. Molly's boggart never turned into Sirius, but had turned into Harry at one point. What if Kreacher represents Harry in that dream? Lily/James not speaking to him... this could signify Harry being out of reach of their comfort (They'd always been symbols of comfort to Harry in the past). Harry seems pretty far out of the reach of comfort in OotP, especially at the end. Ron and Hermione wearing "crowns" may represent their prefect status. However, we learn at the end of OotP, Dumbledore seemingly wanted to make Harry prefect, but passed him over for Ron because he didn't believe Harry wanted to deal with anymore than he already was that year. The "crown" passed from Harry to Ron. Does the "crown" represent "life" or perhaps more accurately, "life" awarded to one (Ron and/or Hermione) at the expense of another (Harry)? One might say that Harry's dream couldn't possibly represent suicide because he didn't want to die until the *end* of the book. That want to die was also induced partly by physical pain, not just emotional. However, that wouldn't have been the first time Harry has contemplated dying. I believe he also has contemplated it in PS/SS, COS, GOF, etc. Harry also has displayed prescient abilities, especially in his dreams. I've suspected Harry may be a Seer, just a Seer also with some suicidal tendencies. As tragic as it is, suicide or suicidal thoughts can be a very real element of adolescent life. Especially a very troubled adolescent life, as Harry has had. His childhood certainly wasn't ideal either. We've also already had creatures that represent depression (the Dementors) back in PoA. Creatures that attacked him again at the beginning of OotP. Harry dreaming about suicide in OotP (although he's not consciously aware of it, but he was certainly "disturbed" by the dream)? Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me at all. annunathradien From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 01:18:30 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040623011830.65558.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102500 Steve: > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't 25 people show up to meet with Harry, Hermione and Ron, and wheren't there 28 signatures on the list? I recall the number 28 being specifically mentioned. > Geoff: I don't remember that being mentioned and, having just looked at the relevant pages, I can't see any reference. Perhaps I've missed it? Going back to previous points raised, don't forget that Umbridge specifically listed Harry's name as being on the parchment. In the US version, page 338, Fred orders 25 butterbeers I do not see any other references to number of participants either, but I imagine that if we go back and list the people off we could probably come up with all of them. But the question was - is the trio's names on the list? I still stand by my earlier post where Umbridge catches them and Harry's name is on the list. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 01:33:53 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:33:53 -0000 Subject: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: <20040623011830.65558.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > Steve: > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't 25 people show up to meet with Harry, Hermione and Ron, and wheren't there 28 signatures on the list? I recall the number 28 being specifically mentioned. > > > > Geoff: > I don't remember that being mentioned and, having just looked at the relevant pages, I can't see any reference. Perhaps I've missed it? > > Going back to previous points raised, don't forget that Umbridge specifically listed Harry's name as being on the parchment. > > > > In the US version, page 338, Fred orders 25 butterbeers > > I do not see any other references to number of participants either, but I imagine that if we go back and list the people off we could probably come up with all of them. But the question was - is the trio's names on the list? I still stand by my earlier post where Umbridge catches them and Harry's name is on the list. > > moonmyyst > > > Ok I found where it says Harry's name is on the list, but I dont see a number anywhere. If you look on OOP p. 617 it states: "The moment I saw Potter's name on the list, I knew what we were dealing with, " she said softly. Jacqui From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 01:54:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:54:11 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, true Seer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > Personally I think that she's a real Seer, but she transform all she > see to be like her Gran or Aunt, I don't remember. > > She thinks that if she saw a rainbow, everyone would think that she's > not up to it so she changes it for something horrible. But what she > see is true. It's her interpretation who's problematic. > > Neville's cup and the Grim was already discussed, but I add that. > > In POA, she said that she saw that the exam will be about the crystal > Ball. Hermione said next "what a surprise, it's her who make the > exams, she didn't see anything". > > It seemed true, and we forgot it. > > But...about what was the Divination OWLs ? :D > > Crystal Ball! > > Christelle oh, I like that. So, you are saying that Trelawney could have made more true predictions than two if only she interpreted them correctly? What do you mean by the way by "problematic interpretation"? That she sees one thng but tells to other people that she saw something totally different or that she just gives different meaning to her true vision? Now my head starts spinning, but I still like it. :o) Is she granddaughter or Great granddaughter of Cassandra? She must have inherited some gift at least. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 02:03:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:03:50 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > What if the brain that attacked Ron was of the recently deceased > Nicolas Flamel? And if so, does Ron know have his memories? > It has to be someone of importance to be in the DoM? Right? > > Just a thought. > > vivian > > (This may double post. My original post is missing in action. I don't know whether it was the brain of Nicolas Flamel or not, but I am pretty sure that it was somebody famous, because I don't think that the "learned wisards" in MoM study the brains of ordinary people. :o) So, I think it is reasonable to expect that Ron will show some unexpected knowledge and insight in book6. I wish I knew what kind of knowledge. :o) Alla From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 02:10:06 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:10:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: <20040623011830.65558.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102504 The reference for the 28 people is in one of the fireplace chats with Sirius...Harry, et al, are discussing where they could meet; Sirius mentions the Shrieking Shack and one of the trio says it would be too small for 28 people. Cheers, Lee (Typing slowly) :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Tue Jun 22 23:21:49 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:21:49 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I was always under the impression the Legilimency was something that > could be learned, perhaps not easily, but learned nonetheless. You can learn to be a metamorphmagus too after enough practice, but Tonks does it naturally. Perhaps there are some wizards/witches who are natural Legilimens? From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Jun 22 13:49:15 2004 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:49:15 -0000 Subject: Question for Snape Bashers In-Reply-To: <40D8B90C.25973.B25F43@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102506 > > Snape then prepares to leave, leaving Lupin to deal with humiliated, > > angry and distracted students. Yeah, that's effective team teaching. > > Who said anything about 'team teaching?' Not me. I'm fairly sure > the idea is complete anathema to Snape, and I'd be surprised if the > concept would even occur to Lupin. Oh, I agree, but I was pointing out that Snape had no regard for what Lupin had to deal with after Snape left. Lupin handled it very effectively, using Snape as an effective target for the students afterwards and getting them to vent their anger through an effective lesson. And if Snape griped about being used that way, well, tough. He should have kept his yap shut in Lupin's class. > > So I suppose you could argue that Snape was wanting to reinforce > > the "Don't help him, Hermione," lesson, but guess what? This is > > Lupin's class and Lupin can run it how he wants. He can even have > > Hermione tutor Neville in class downtime if he wants. > > No, I wouldn't argue that Snape was wanting to reinforce the 'Don't > help him, Hermione' lesson. My view is that, if anything, it was > 'Don't let Hermione help you, Neville.' > > Entirely a different lesson. > > Snape can save the reinforcement for his own class. > > Yes, and in my opinion, he should have. Having let Neville leave > his class without punishment, Snape should not have done what he > did later. I'm not defending what he does in Lupin's class for a > moment. > > You're question was 'why is this an effective teaching tool'? > > That's what I was answering. I *do not* think Snape should have > done this - that doesn't mean I think it's ineffective. And I do think it is. Unless, as I said, this was pre-planned. Snape was not "teaching" here, in my opinion. He was venting. Let's not call it teaching just because someone took something good from it, which, given Snape's reactions during and after, does not appear to have been anything Snape planned. > Snape *is* out of bounds in my opinion. But that doesn't mean his >method might not work - it just means that there's other factors >involved (such as common courtesy) that means this really wasn't >the place for it. >> Ask any teacher how he or she feels about a colleague interrupting >> his or her class to slam one of the students and I think you'll get an answer that doesn't justify Snape. > > Your question didn't ask about justification. > > It asked about effectiveness. And you said you thought it might work, but issued many caveats saying you didn't think it worked in this case. I'm saying it so rarely works, and should so rarely be applied, that it is essentially ineffective. Sometimes Snape does get it wrong. That's OK to admit. Darrin From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 02:32:21 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:32:21 -0000 Subject: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > The reference for the 28 people is in one of the fireplace chats with > Sirius...Harry, et al, are discussing where they could meet; Sirius mentions > the Shrieking Shack and one of the trio says it would be too small for 28 > people. > > Cheers, > > Lee (Typing slowly) :-) > > Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm > I may not care to lead; | N2FGC > Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at o... (or) > I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at a... > Walk beside me, and be my friend. Ok then, I guess that makes perfect sense. 25 People showed up, besides Harry, Ron & Herminone...so I guess that would make the 28 people. Jacqui From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 14:13:28 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:13:28 -0000 Subject: Dobby's painting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102508 So what's up with the painting Dobby gave Harry for Christmas in OOTP? Maybe this is just another example of his hero-worship *thing* for Harry, but wasn't this present a little odd? It could just be an extension of Dobby's artistic abilities from knitting to painting :). It seems like, after Dobby almost killed Harry of course, that he gives Harry very useful things: Gillyweed, bringing back Hedwig, introducing him to the Room of Requirement. Then we have the Snitch socks and the painting, which haven't proven useful...yet. I wonder if Dobby even painted it himself? He's artistically inclined and the painting was barely recognizable as Harry. One thought I had was it is some form of communication device, like the mirror from Sirius. A few weeks back there was a discussion on portraits in general and a mention that this painting is the only one we've seen in the WW that isn't moving, talking etc. That's odd, too. Ah well, in JKR's world it could be nothing or it could be the key to the whole mystery . From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 23 04:10:42 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:10:42 -0400 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102509 What to say, what to say. . . As I just finished reading the book for only the second time, I forgot how powerful it all was. I have tears in my eyes from those last few paragraphs where some of the OOTP members confront the Dursleys. And I was just on the edge of my seat from the moment Sirius was killed, all through his palpable pain, anger at DD (and himself) and guilt, the scene with Dumbledore explaining Harry's doomed future (as he says, he'll either be a murderer or a victim). . . Such powerful chapters. JKR is really brilliant. Now some miscellaneous comments I wrote down as I was reading the book: How does Dumbledore know exactly what is happening on Privet Drive and how is he able to send a Howler minutes after Vernon tells Harry to get out? I can totally understand Harry's anger and hurt at being left out of things when he is the one that has had to endure the trauma and havoc wreaked by VM. Not only has he handled himself well enough to be told what is going on, but he has suffered so much and then feels like people have abandoned him just when he needs them most. Does Lucius Malfoy know Sirius is an Animagus? When the trio, et al, are riding the Hogwarts Express, and Draco says he'll be "dogging" Harry's footsteps, Harry and Hermione both wonder if Draco knows something about Sirius. "What if Mr. Malfoy had noticed the black dog and told Draco, what if he had deduced that the Weasleys, Lupin, Tonks and Moody knew where Sirius was hiding?" OOTP p. 194 Then when they see an article in the Daily Prophet about Sirius Black hiding out in London, they are sure that Malfoy must have known. But how can he? I thought SB was an UNREGISTERED animagus, and the only people that were supposed to know he is one are the OOTP people (and before that, only DD and the Trio). Is there a spy in OOTP or am I missing something (possible again!)? That Umbridge woman is truly evil and so is Fudge if she is getting her orders from him. I guess I can understand Fudge not wanting to believe Harry because he wants his MOM to remain the same, no threat of VM. If Fudge is not a DE, then he is a HUGE fool, because he is not just denying what DD and HP have said about VM, but allowing the whole MOM to be corrupt, allow Umbridge the freedom to abuse Harry like she did, almost convincing Harry of underage magic (apparently against the written laws of the WW), etc. Maybe you're all right about him not being the "one too cowardly to return." I actually think it takes a lot of (misplaced) chutzpah to twist things around and create the rumors of DD being senile and HP being nuts (sorry British members, nutters :^) ) . . . esp. since DD is considered so powerful and all. To doubt him, to openly attempt to cause people to distrust DD. . .boy, if Fudge isn't a DE, he's just plan STUPID. Back to Umbridge for a second. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees the similarities between what she does and the McCarthy era hearings. She certainly resembles a dictator. It's ridiculous (in our society anyway, not necessarily in the WW) to have someone able to give themselves supreme power, without that being voted on or approved by the people she has power over! I was outraged reading those pages again! I thought it was interesting that in spite of the continued division between the houses, three of them manage to come together in the form of DA. It would have been really cool if there had been one or two Slytherins who overheard Hermione and Ron recruiting for DA and wanted to join, but I think the way things are written, it couldn't have happened. Harry, his friends and even his house, I think, don't trust the Slytherins enough not to think that they would be spied on or "arming" a future DE. After reading the pages after Harry dreams about Mr. Weasley being attacked, it seems clear to me why DD wanted to keep his distance from Harry. The way Harry's scar burned for those few seconds when DD looked at him, right before they took the Portkey back to Sirius' house. . .I don't know whether strong feelings of love for DD somehow make Harry's connection to VM stronger, or perhaps because parts of VM were "left" in Harry, when he is around DD, he feels VM's hatred for DD. Of course, I do still think DD should have had SOMEONE explain to Harry why he, DD, was avoiding him. DD should have knows how Harry goes off on his own and doesn't trust easily, and here is someone he has trusted for 4 years who has seemingly abandoned him and only seems to care for him on a superficial level now. I can understand Harry's hurt and confusion. And to come back to VM for a minute, I wonder if we'll hear more about his loathing of DD. I mean, I wonder if it is only because DD challenged him, when he became LV, or if there is some back history we don't know about between Riddle and DD. Maybe some father-like rejection just fueled his already psychopathic personality. I found some parts of the book very funny (although I can't quote them at the moment). That was a nice contrast to all the stuff that Umbridge was putting them through. I think the funniest parts (although they were more touching than funny) were the parts with Cho (when she wasn't crying!). Harry discovering how it feels when a girl likes him, getting kissed, holding hands, etc. I think those were the best parts of his whole year. And as far as Harry not practicing Occlumency or doing his best, I have to give the kid a break. The way I see it, his year was practically doomed from the minute VM tried to kill him. He gets attacked by dementors, (feels) abandoned by his friends and DD, gets called a liar over and over again by students and Umbridge (who then proceeds to abuse him in the most horrible way), doesn't get to play Quidditch for most of the year, has to spend occasional evenings having his mind probed by someone he dislikes and mistrusts, and has continuing dreams that connect him to VM. How the heck is he supposed to "clear his mind" or do any of the things Snape demands of him? Nobody gives him any information as to why it's so important, and of course he thinks the dreams are real! His dream of Frank Bryce being killed turned out to be true. His dream of Mr. Weasley being attacked turned out to be true. Why shouldn't he believe that Sirius was hurt and that the dreams he has of the Dept. of Mysteries is true? Give the boy some info! Geez, I totally agree with him in his thoughts that he's faced so much alone but they won't tell him what's going on. I understand in principle wanting to protect him, but he's not a normal kid. He's been traumatized over and over by VM, trusted to do what's right (and he has) by DD and now they keep him in the dark. And all this happens when he's dealing with raging hormones and his attraction to Cho! I can't help but feel for him! In the "Beyond the Veil" chapter. . .Hermione says "Accio Wand!" How does the spell know which wand? And if wands in the WW are like weapons, why not break the wands of the DE whenever they fall or let go of their wand? Destroy the wand, destroy some of the concentrated power. Although I realize the more powerful DEs will not need their wands to continue. I didn't really get that Harry blames Snape for Sirius's death as much as he blames himself for not keeping up with the Occlumency or practicing. Yes, he hates Snape and threw some blame his way when Dumbledore mentioned Snape's part in things, but I felt that Harry was blaming himself more than anything. And oh my God, if he had just opened Sirius's package sooner, even if he intended not to use it, if he had seen what it was, he could have confirmed Sirius wasn't in the DOM before going off half-cocked with his friends! I vaguely recall some discussion about Neville showing some powerful abilities, but I didn't really see that. What I did see is proof that he is rightfully in Gryffindor! He showed such bravery to be by Harry's side the whole time! I was very impressed with that. And what the heck was that brain-thing doing to Ron? Actually there was so much happening in those couple chapters, I might have to read them again to absorb it all. Was thrilled that DU finally got what's coming to her. Anyone wonder what EXACTLY happened to her with the centaurs? Boy I want those DEs to get what they deserve! Especially Bellatrix who is such a sadistic b*tch! This was an excellent book. Very long but well worth it. I think the only parts that might have been a bit extraneous were the parts with Grawp. But who knows if he'll play a larger role in the next 2 books. Maybe JKR had to set him up a bit in this book for the future. Ultimately I am just so sad for Harry. What a life he's had! How much sadness he has had to endure! What a year! It was probably the only year he's ever been at Hogwarts that he was miserable or unhappy most of the time. And yet, he still didn't want to go back to the Dursleys, so that tells you how awful it is there! Barbara, still stunned from the last few chapters! bd-bear From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 04:19:05 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:19:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: World Book Day Question Message-ID: <92.e0eb5c9.2e0a5eb9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102510 In a message dated 06/22/2004 6:20:14 PM Central Daylight Time, t.forch at email.dk writes: > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" > >wrote: > >> > >>Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is > > > > >>Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? Or is she implying > >>something else, or is there a Ms Radcliffe we don't know about! > > > >Ann Radcliffe was a late 18th to early 19th century English author > > > IMO JKR is referring to a fan's screen name. I don't think that she'd be mentioning DR's relatives in a chat. >From JKR's answer we can determine this is a question that Ms Radcliffe is *desperate* to have answered. IMO that rules out oblique references to Ann Radcliffe since she'd be approximately 200 years old and probably in no shape to be asking questions let alone receiving answers to them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 04:25:34 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 04:25:34 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > > Does Lucius Malfoy know Sirius is an Animagus? imamommy: Yes. Wormtail would have told VM and the DE's From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 04:37:12 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:37:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore Message-ID: <9b.497ecfdc.2e0a62f8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102512 In a message dated 06/22/2004 9:06:20 AM Central Daylight Time, phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk writes: > I checked his dates and his card says that he was born in > >1935, at which time Dumbledore would have been around 85. Not 'in his > >youth' even by wizard standards. So, unless a mistake has been made > >in the game, Dumbledore MUST have gone back in time. > >Aha!!! > > Not having seen the card in question, a side-question must be: is that > the Bertie Bott who actually invented the Beans, or could that have > been an earlier family member? > > Back to the main issue: > > When you're 150+, 85 must seem pretty youthful. > > I'm voting for an error in the game. Lots of different people are involved in the marketing of HP . . . band-aids to figurines to video games. . . .easy enough for a date to be mixed up. Perhaps they were supposed to read 1835 instead of 1935. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 04:35:01 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:35:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102513 | From: Jacqui | Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 22:32 PM | Ok then, I guess that makes perfect sense. 25 People showed up, | besides Harry, Ron & Herminone...so I guess that would make the 28 | people. [Lee]: I found the exact reference in Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four: --Begin Quote-- "How about the Shrieking Shack?" suggested Sirius. "Hey, that's an idea!" said Ron excitedly, but Hermione made a skeptical noise and all three of them looked at her, Sirius's head turning in the flames. "Well, Sirius, it's just that there were only four of you meeting in the Shrieking Shack when you were at school," said Hermione, "and all of you could transform into animals and I suppose you could all have squeezed under a single Invisibility Cloak if you'd wanted to. But there are twenty-eight of us and none of us is an Animagus, so we wouldn't need so much an Invisibility Cloak as an Invisibility Marquee--" --End Quote-- Hope that helps. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 04:45:35 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 04:45:35 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102514 As I was rereading OOP again, I was trying to connect all the dots on Broderick Bode. The trio figures out that he was killed because he was regaining speech and memory. But how did VM know that? This thinking led me to wonder, who was his visitor the day after Arthur was attacked? the old man with the listening device? Was he as innocuous as he seemed? Was JKR just keeping Bode's name in our minds, or is there more to this man than is obvious? imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 04:52:48 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 04:52:48 -0000 Subject: Harry & Ron's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: snip > gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts > JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic > career, he's seen so much action! > > Have you seen any other posts where she suggests that Harry wont > make it through as well??? > > Jacqui imamommy: This is actually one of the few times where she doesn't say "If he survives..." about Harry. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 05:27:25 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:27:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102516 | From: imamommy | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 0:46 AM | As I was rereading OOP again, I was trying to connect all the dots on | Broderick Bode. The trio figures out that he was killed because he | was regaining speech and memory. But how did VM know that? This | thinking led me to wonder, who was his visitor the day after Arthur | was attacked? the old man with the listening device? Was he as | innocuous as he seemed? Was JKR just keeping Bode's name in our | minds, or is there more to this man than is obvious? [Lee]: To connect all the dots, you need to go back to GOF in the chapter on the Quidditch World Cup. Mr. Weasley is telling the kids who is who as he says hello to passers-by from the ministry...and he says, "Bode and Croker ... they're Unspeakables." So, here we have an innocuous name dropped on us and it comes back in OOTP. I'd want to say that the visitor was probably someone Bode knew who might have been really working for LV, but Bode didn't know that. I just looked into GOF again...there was that very feeble old man with Macnair from the Committee for the Disposal of Magical Creatures. Could he have been the baddie? Hmm... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 05:33:21 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:33:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: <3e.409c0c39.2e0a7021@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102517 In a message dated 06/22/2004 12:43:54 AM Central Daylight Time, n2fgc at arrl.net writes: > But my real question is, if some of the students live closer, say they live > in Scotland or northern parts, does this mean they have to backtrack all the > way back to London just to take the express to Hogsmeade? > > I've often wondered this and, honestly, it's a real niggler for me. > > Help?? :-) My brain is frying over this. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) > > I've always had the impression that ALL students arrive on the Express. Seamus is Irish (presuming his folks still live in Ireland) and that's closer to Scotland than London. Perhaps the students that have the furthest distance to travel to get to London are portkeyed into a safe spot. . like they did for the QWC? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 06:15:02 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:15:02 -0000 Subject: World Book Day Question In-Reply-To: <20040622032410.85877.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Alina wrote: > > > JK Rowling replies -> ... answer a question about Draco and Hermione, which a certain*** Ms. Radcliffe***(emph added) is desperate to have answered. Will they end up together in book six/seven? NO! > > > > Who is JKR talking about . . . was this a typo? > > > > Lady McBeth... > > > Alina: > > Umm wouldn't Ms.Radcliffe be the handle used by the chat user who > sent in the question? > > alina. > MoonMyyst: > > I remember seeing this question and I remember looking to see if that was the name of the person who sent it in. I don't think that it was. I figured that Daniel has a sister or that his mother had asked. > > moonmyyst Asian_lovr2: I will also add that one of the producers of the movies in named Radcliffe (Tom or Dave or something). Could be his wife or daughter, or actor Dan Radcliffe's mother. Or more likely the Radcliffe name could be a coincidence. Steve From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 06:25:38 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:25:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flame... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102519 In a message dated 06/22/2004 9:05:23 PM Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: > I don't know whether it was the brain of Nicolas Flamel or not, but I > am pretty sure that it was somebody famous, because I don't think > that the "learned wisards" in MoM study the brains of ordinary > people. :o) > > So, I think it is reasonable to expect that Ron will show some > unexpected knowledge and insight in book6. I wish I knew what kind of > knowledge. :o) > > > Alla > Ohhhhh what if its the brain of an evil wizard such as Grindelwald. I seem to recall a bit in the book mentioning something along the lines of thoughts causing the deepest scars. . .did JKR mean only physically or could she mean mental scars as well? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 06:32:45 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:32:45 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: <0a6301c457e6$31fb8bc0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Firedancer" wrote: > FireDancer/June: > > ...edited > Now, poor Winky has really been abused most horribly, and she can't be > the only case, ... right? > > June Asain_lovr2: I think others in this thread have done an excellent job of covering this basic issue, and someone was kind enough to refer back to my old post on this matter (Thanks), so I won't address the primary issue, but I will take exception to one minor point. Where is the evidence the Winky 'has really been abused most horribly'? Perhaps I misunderstand the point your are making, but Winky wasn't abused. Certainly Mr. Crouch was rude and insensitive to Winky, but no more rude and insensitive than he is to any one else. And, Winky's depression is not related to being abused, it's because she is separated from the household she and her family have been a part of for many generations. She has lost her home, her family (Crouch), and her purpose in life; seem reasonable that she might be a little depressed. She was born and raised to serve the house and family of Crouch, not just to serve, but to serve that specific house, it was her destiny and a destiny she was proud of, and now it's lost. On the subject of Slaver- Thanks to HunterGreen_3 for posting the link to my previous discussions ( 92482 ). In them I point out that, in my opinion, elves are only bound by elfin history, ferce elfin honor, and their own solumn oath, but not by judicial or magical law. Wizard don't truly have any hold over them, other than the exploitation of that elfin honor and history. Just a thought. Steve From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 06:43:24 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:43:24 -0000 Subject: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > I just had a thought that put me straight off my feed... > > > > Rita Skeeter, Legilemens. > > > > Can you imagine all the trouble she could cause? Arya: > Oh my god, she actually report the *gasp* TRUTH!!!! > I think this would actually be a possible improvement. Think of the lying, scheming > Ministry oficials she could out. Geoff: Rita Skeeter reporting the /truth/? You can-not be serious! Why on earth would she do that? It's far more interesting inventing stories about people such as Harry...... :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 07:02:34 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:02:34 -0000 Subject: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: Lee: > I found the exact reference in Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number > Twenty-Four: > --Begin Quote-- > "How about the Shrieking Shack?" suggested Sirius. > > "Hey, that's an idea!" said Ron excitedly, but Hermione made a skeptical > noise and all three of them looked at her, Sirius's head turning in the > flames. > > "Well, Sirius, it's just that there were only four of you meeting in the > Shrieking Shack when you were at school," said Hermione, "and all of you > could transform into animals and I suppose you could all have squeezed under > a single Invisibility Cloak if you'd wanted to. But there are twenty-eight > of us and none of us is an Animagus, so we wouldn't need so much an > Invisibility Cloak as an Invisibility Marquee--" > --End Quote-- Geoff: It was the 28 I was referring to in my earlier comments. I agree with another poster that this was 25 plus the trio. Lee's quote is p,331 in the UK editions. I also found: '"Wait a moment - there is something you can do for me, Dobby," said Harry slowly. The elf looked round, beaming. "Name it, Harry Potter, sir!" "I need to find a place where twenty-eight people can practise Defence Against the Dark Arts without being discovered by any of the teachers. Especially," Harry clenched his hand on the book so that the scars shone pearly white, "Professor Umbridge."' (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.342 UK edition) From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 03:55:25 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:55:25 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102523 vmonte: > > > > What if the brain that attacked Ron was of the recently deceased > > Nicolas Flamel? And if so, does Ron know have his memories? Alla: > > I don't know whether it was the brain of Nicolas Flamel or not, but I > am pretty sure that it was somebody famous, because I don't think > that the "learned wisards" in MoM study the brains of ordinary > people. I wouldn't be surprised at all the brains being kept at the Department of Mysteries are people of either great importance or have particularly *interesting* minds. Minds worth studying anyway. Which is all at once very intriguing and very disturbing. What sort of minds would be captured in a tank at a place like the Department of Mysteries? Great minds don't always come from good people. Nicolas Flamel is an intriguing guess, he certainly may have the sort of mind that would be interesting to preserve and study. He wasn't only a gifted alchemist, but has six centuries worth of life experiences. I think Seers brains may also be worth studying. Cassandra Trelawney's mind, for example, may be a candidate in that tank. Ron has displayed some Seer abilities off and on throughout the series. What if this attack somehow awakens this possibly latent talent in him? Although I wonder about the side effects. I'm particularly concerned with something Madam Pomfrey says about the apparent complications of the brain attack: OOTP Schol. CH. 38, PG. 847 "There were still deep welts on [Ron's] forearms where the brain's tentacles had wrapped around him. According to Madam Pomfrey, thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, though since she had started applying copious amounts of Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction, there seemed to be some improvement." "Thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else"? This doesn't sound very pleasant at all. What if the "welts" (thoughts?) never really heal on Ron? "Oblivious Unction" sounds something on par to the Obliviate Charm. What would Ron have to forget because of that brain? annunathradien From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 07:55:37 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:55:37 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's secret message Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102524 Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured to insanity by Bellatrix et al trying to pry some secret information out of them. What was that information? Crouch Sr. said in the Pensieve trial that it was the whereabouts of Vapormort. Could be, but what if it was something else? In OotP it seems that Alice Longbottom is trying to pass a message to her son Neville, somehow encoded in the bubblegum wrappers. HOW the message is encoded is a different question, but I'm more interested in the WHAT. Now, what if this message that Alice is trying to tell Neville is the same information for which she was tortured? If so, it's not likely to be the whereabouts of Vapormort 14 years ago. This would be an anticlimax. No, it should be something else. Something that was extremely important 14 years ago and is still extremely important today. It is not the prophecy either. This will also be an anticlimax. It should be something that DD doesn't know, maybe doesn't even guess. Bella might have inkling what it is about (or why did she take the risk that landed her in Azkaban for trying to pry it out of the Longbottoms) but she doesn't know the important part and she probably believes it was erased with the rest of the Longbottom's minds and lost forever. So what is it? Any suggestions? Neri From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 16:22:51 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: <001201c45871$6f9e2380$f3510043@intergate.com> Message-ID: <20040622162251.90066.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102525 I am still working on this one. I need some help. Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up with that start with the following letters: B D E G I L M N O R S T U W I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean something. moonmyyst (who has way too much time on her hands even with a full time job, starting a new business, showing shelties, running after kids, taking care of parents... and all without a time-turner!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 16:48:52 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:48:52 -0000 Subject: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102526 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: [snip] > Where are Arthur's brothers' children? The MINIMUM way that Lucius's > statement, quoted by Draco, that "all the Weasleys" have red hair, no > money, and more children than they can afford, can be true is if each > brother has at least 3 children. > But she killed my lovely vision of Arthur having had 3 or 4 older > siblings who, between them, had over 20 red-haired children at > Hogwarts overlapping with Lucius's school days. Maybe there were many more, but they all died? We only have a limited list of names so far, but I suspect the devastation was rather wider than explicitly stated. For example, the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives. Yet there were loads of them in the MoE. So where did the rest of them go? Killed in VM1 would be my best guess. HTH HAND -- Phil From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 23 08:56:13 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:56:13 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, true Seer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > oh, I like that. So, you are saying that Trelawney could have made > more true predictions than two if only she interpreted them > correctly? > > > What do you mean by the way by "problematic interpretation"? That she > sees one thng but tells to other people that she saw something > totally different or that she just gives different meaning to her > true vision? > > Now my head starts spinning, but I still like it. :o) > > Is she granddaughter or Great granddaughter of Cassandra? She must > have inherited some gift at least. > > The scatty Sybill could have made more predictions, but she wouldn't know about them. The two predictions that seem to be significant were both made when she was in a trance - and she remembers nothing of them afterwards. Indeed, in PoA she denies that she's said anything at all and when Harry repeats what she's said, she says that she would never speak such ridiculous nonsense. All her 'predictions' in Divination classes are made up for effect. DD says he was thinking of dropping Divination altogether and he thought it "was obvious" that Trelawney had no gift at all until she produced the first prophecy. Note that when Harry and Ron manufacture a load of rubbish for their homework, they get full marks. Why? Because Trelawney can't tell the difference. She's mostly a fraud and the less gullible students (Hermione) and members of staff (McGonagall) realise it. I suspect that she knows it too, hence her infrequent appearances at the staff dining table. She only has the job because DD wants to keep an eye on her. Kneasy From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 18:34:24 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:34:24 -0000 Subject: SS/PS comments (BEWARE RON=DD POST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102528 casmir2012 wrote: > I have heard some excellent "clues" that seemingly support the > theory of Ron (or one of the twins even) being Dumbledore...but one > thing stops me from believing it myself. The fact that Dumbledore > had his own childhood (remember that the OWL tester remembered when > Dumbldore took his tests...did things she'd never seen before). > Dumbledore has his own family (that have been only mentioned, true, > but Dumbledore never lies...according to JKR.) > > Also, it would be a very weak plot line, indeed, if Dumbledore was > Ron or a Twin and with all that foreknowledge was still unable to > prevent Voldemort from taking power. vmonte responds: Good comments Casmir. I've already posted comments on Marchbanks, who tested DD during his NEWTS, not Owls (page 711,OOTP,U.S. version). NEWTS are taken in a students 7th year. They are the equivalent of Advanced levels (A levels) in England, which are required for University entry. NEWTS seem to important for job placement after Hogwarts. If Ron is sent back at some point during sixth year he could very well enter Hogwarts as a transfer student would. Ron may seem average to us, but since he is going far back in time, he may very well know spells that have not even been invented yet. My guess is that Ron will be able to communicate with Harry and Hermione. He may take a piece of Sirius's mirror back in time and communicate as with walkie-talkies. It may be useful for Ron to check out the Hogwarts of that time for possible clues. (If he finds something of importance there he could always burry it, leaving instructions for Harry and Hermione as to where to find it.) Believe it or not I hate time-travel stories. But for some reason it seems to make sense for the HP series. I wouldn't mind if I was wrong though. I like surprises. It's just that it doesn't happen often. vivian From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jun 23 08:40:54 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:40:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy In-Reply-To: <62884428.20040622114022@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102529 > Paul wrote: > > Krum > > (who is an adult) is considering Harry (who is 4 years younger) as > > an equal rival in love, which is illogical without probable cause. > > > Susanne wrote: >But then, logic isn't usually associated with romantic > entanglements. > > Paul wrote: > > Wherever there is smoke, there is fire. > > Susanne wrote: > And maybe the smoke is related to a different fire ;) > > Paul reply: I am not someone who rules out any possible scenarios. >From your answer I understand you are R/Hr shipper. I respect your point view. But you can't deny that there is enough smoke in the other side also. In addition you can't deny that deep down we all can sense our true rivals. Krum is considering Harry as a rival not Ron. You might say that it is due to Harry's fame. This is not the case because Krum said that Hr were always talking about Harry. In fact she were talking all the time for Harry. And there is more. Hr never protested about the allegations regarding her affair with Harry or the triangle between Harry, Krum and her. From MPOV deep down she enjoys to be the center of the boy's attention and she keeps all options open. After all she holds all the card! Cheers, Paul From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 19:22:35 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:22:35 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > I agree that it is most definitely the WW community that needs to change, not > the Elves, and that the way the Elves are treated is as big an issue as their > enslavement is. It starts with the enslavement, though, doesn't it? > > Other than Dumbledore, we haven't seen anyone treating their Elves as > anything higher than dirt. If I was an Elf at Hogwarts, I wouldn't want to take > one of Hermione's hats either; that would mean I'd be on my own and might > get picked up by someone like the Malfoys or be turned away again and > again the way Dobby was before he found his way to Hogwarts. They've got > the best deal in the WW, it seems, at Hogwarts. > > The initial problem with the enslavement is that is breeds the poor treatment > of those enslaved. Whether magical or not, the ones who own have a good > deal of power over the ones owned. Even Sirius, who would love nothing mor > than to set Kreacher free, isn't exactly tolerant of Kreacher. I'm not saying > Kreacher is a cuddly and loveable little Elf, but isn't it the responsibility of > Sirius to have a better relationship with Kreacher? He's far better than the > other Blacks, it seems, but his authority over Kreacher is always there. > > I can't help but be on Hermione's side in this issue. I want to see all the Elves > set free to serve whoever they'd like. Their loyalties to their masters seem to > stem from their isolation and lack of knowledge about better situations. > > In the end I find it cruel that they are magically bound to their masters and > that so many masters, it seems, take such advantage of that bondage. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who wears her S.P.E.W. badge with pride I agree that the status of house elves in the books makes me more than a little queasy. I think the thing we need to consider is what their nature actually *is*. Are they simply magical creatures whose reason for being is to serve a particular house or family? If so, they are not truly enslaved, though they are clearly much abused by wizarding folk, who take their service very much for granted. On the other hand, are they powerful magical creatures whose desire for praise, etc, has allowed them to be drawn into a devil's bargain with the wizarding community? This would be enslavement, and pretty reprehensible. It seems to me that the destruction of that ridiculous fountain in OotP signaled a change in the attitudes of some, at least, of the wizarding community. Here's what Dumbledore has to say in Chapter 37, The Lost Prophecy: 'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. `He regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike ... the fountain we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward.' Perhaps, led by Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley, who seemingly alone in the wizarding world consider non-wizards/witches to be equals, the WW will go through a transformation of its view both of what constitutes civil rights and what constitutes freedom. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 10:05:07 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:05:07 -0000 Subject: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: Catlady: > > But she killed my lovely vision of Arthur having had 3 or 4 older > > siblings who, between them, had over 20 red-haired children at > > Hogwarts overlapping with Lucius's school days. Phil: > Maybe there were many more, but they all died? We only have a limited > list of names so far, but I suspect the devastation was rather wider > than explicitly stated. > > For example, the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives. Yet there > were loads of them in the MoE. So where did the rest of them go? > Killed in VM1 would be my best guess. Geoff: We have pointed out before, in the Mark Evans threads for example, that it is possible that there might be cousins a few times removed who are relatives but about whom Harry knows nothing. The Dursleys might know of thm but have failed to mention them or they may not even know themselves. I have second cousins whoes existence was unknown to me until about ten years ago and whom I met for the first time last year. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 10:23:49 2004 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:23:49 -0000 Subject: Malfoys' knowledge of Padfoot WAS Re: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > > Does Lucius Malfoy know Sirius is an Animagus? When the trio, et al, are > riding the Hogwarts Express, and Draco says he'll be "dogging" Harry's > footsteps, Harry and Hermione both wonder if Draco knows something about > Sirius. > > "What if Mr. Malfoy had noticed the black dog and told Draco, what if he had > deduced that the Weasleys, Lupin, Tonks and Moody knew where Sirius was > hiding?" OOTP p. 194 > > Then when they see an article in the Daily Prophet about Sirius Black hiding > out in London, they are sure that Malfoy must have known. But how can he? I > thought SB was an UNREGISTERED animagus, and the only people that were > supposed to know he is one are the OOTP people (and before that, only DD and > the Trio). Is there a spy in OOTP or am I missing something (possible > again!)? > After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about Sirius as an unregistered animagus. Haggridd > > Barbara, still stunned from the last few chapters! > bd-bear From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 10:48:10 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:48:10 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's secret message Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102533 Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured to insanity by Bellatrix et al trying to pry some secret information out of them. What was that information? Crouch Sr. said in the Pensieve trial that it was the whereabouts of Vapormort. Could be, but what if it was something else? In OotP it seems that Alice Longbottom is trying to pass a message to her son Neville, somehow encoded in the bubblegum wrappers. HOW the message is encoded is a different question, but I'm more interested in the WHAT. Now, what if this message that Alice is trying to tell Neville is the same information for which she was tortured? If so, it's not likely to be the whereabouts of Vapormort 14 years ago. This would be an anticlimax. No, it should be something else. Something that was extremely important 14 years ago and is still extremely important today. It is not the prophecy either. This will also be an anticlimax. It should be something that DD doesn't know, maybe doesn't even guess. Bella might have inkling what it is about (or why did she take the risk that landed her in Azkaban for trying to pry it out of the Longbottoms) but she doesn't know the important part and she probably believes it was erased with the rest of the Longbottom's minds and lost forever. So what is it? Any suggestions? Neri From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 23 11:14:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:14:29 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <11a.33d328e2.2e09a281@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102534 Melissa wrote: snipping > > I do think that Fabian and Gideon were probably Molly's brothers. I also > think that Fred and George were born to Molly & Arthur at roughly the same time > that Fabian and Gideon were killed, hence the F & G beginning names in their > honor. Potioncat: I snipped your correction of my post. I should know better not to check canon first! I can see the literary hints that the twins could be adopted. I hope not, because the hints fit with what non- adoptive families "think" adoption is like. But JKR wouldn't be the first author to get it wrong. Actually I agree with your ideas with the twins each being named for one of the brothers. I think that would be less likely if they were the sons of one brother. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 23 11:17:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:17:54 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102535 > Gina: > I have GREAT hope for Neville's parents and I fully believe > something is going on here. Maybe there IS a message but Neville cannot > figure it out and is too embarrassed to ask anyone for help! > > > Potioncat: Or perhaps he doesn't yet know there is a message. Potioncat (who thinks Gran is all right, even if she is old fashioned.) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jun 23 11:24:59 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:24:59 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102536 Lady Macbeth, living up to her name, wrote: > For some, humane is letting a person or creature (or Kreacher) suffer on in > life with the hope that they will some day "get better". That's the route > that I'm afraid is going to be in store for Kreacher in these books - after > all, even Dumbledore, who's lived so long that he should know better, > wouldn't see Kreacher dead for any reason, even if it were just to put him > out of his misery. Given that Kreacher is nowhere near the kind of loss of faculties at which euthanasia begins to be discussed IRL, what is your canon basis for saying that Dumbledore 'should know better'? Your wording above 'letting a person...' rather connotes a very passive approach to Kreacher's rehabilitation - do you rule out all possibility of active engagement to get him to at least have a happier life, if not develop a finer moral sense? David From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jun 23 11:37:06 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:37:06 -0000 Subject: JKR tells fan that there is a reason why Sirius had to die --- Oh really... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102537 vmonte here: > JKR loves the character of Sirius. What would be the reason she > needed to kill this character off? I think the reason has to do with what we see in the fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort at the MOM. When Voldemort possesses Harry, it is the thought of Sirius that allows Harry to throw him off (or, perhaps, merely repels Voldemort without any active trying on Harry's part). I see this as falling into the same class of event as Lily's protection of Harry: because Sirius died trying to save Harry, then in some way that requires Harry's consciousnes of it, that protects him from Voldemort. I realise this raises questions about other situations where people died protecting other people, but I think there are ways of addressing that. David From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 23 11:49:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:49:25 +0100 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? Message-ID: <604CD837-C50B-11D8-B7C9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102538 You all may remember the 'Unforgivables' thread of a few weeks back, but in all the brou-haha of ethics, evil and all the other stuff, I don't remember anyone getting round to addressing an important question: Why the hell did Crouch!Moody teach Harry to resist the Imperius Curse? Surely a vulnerable Harry would be a more attractive proposition for Voldy and his merry crew of hench-wizards? Why make your enemy stronger? No reason at all (unless he was as claimed following DD's instructions and even then he could still have left Harry vulnerable somehow). No, I don't think that this little wrinkle (Imperio!) was introduced with Harry in mind at all, at least not directly. What readers tend to miss is that most if not all of the rest of the class remain susceptible to the curse. As a plot device it's critical use is still to come. So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in (probably) the next book? IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. Kneasy From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Tue Jun 22 13:13:16 2004 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:13:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102539 Lady Macbeth says: I doubt very much that Kreacher would have been happy by being set free, because even though he ran to Narcissa with information, he is very much devoted to Mrs. Black and her husband - otherwise, he wouldn't be so obsessive about their belongings and about spending so much time with Mrs. Black's portrait. To be separated from that would be worse than anything else for him - that's certainly why he's hoarding their belongings and fishing them out of the garbage every chance he gets. Kagome replies: Not only that, but I don't think he'd feel Sirius has the right to free him. He only seems to follow Sirius' orders when it's convenient to him, otherwise he doesn't consider him one of the Blacks. Mrs. Black removed Sirius' name from that tapestry, right? I think Kreacher has argued to himself that such an action removes him from having to obey Sirius, because he isn't one of the family. He obeys his 'Get out!' order because he ~wanted~ to, not because he absolutely had to. There are many other times he completely disobeyed Sirius, and he muttered when Harry was around that Sirius wasn't really a real 'Black'. Therefor if Sirius tried to free him it 'wouldn't count', because the one whose orders he still obeyed was Mrs. Black's portrait. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 23 12:27:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:27:49 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <604CD837-C50B-11D8-B7C9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102540 Kneasy wrote: > No, I don't think that this little wrinkle (Imperio!) was introduced > with Harry in mind at all, at least not directly. What readers tend to > miss is that most if not all of the rest of the class remain > susceptible to the curse. As a plot device it's critical use is still > to come. > > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > (probably) the next book? > > IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. > Potioncat: I think you're on to something! If the one casting "Imperio!" is as clever as Crouch!Moody, the behavior won't even seem too out of character given the circumstances at the time. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 12:46:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:46:10 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102541 annunathradien wrote: I think Seers brains may also be worth studying. Cassandra Trelawney's mind, for example, may be a candidate in that tank. Ron has displayed some Seer abilities off and on throughout the series. What if this attack somehow awakens this possibly latent talent in him? Although I wonder about the side effects. vmonte responds: Yes, I posted before that maybe the brain was from a seer but Cassandra never occurred to me. Good thoughts! I think that you are right about this attack possibly awakening Ron's latent talents. I also think that in the next 2 books Ron is going to be involved a lot more with things. Not as a side-kick, but as a leader. DD is definitely going to die sometime in the next 2 books. The children are being trained to continue the work of the Order. I think that one of these kids will take over the role of DD. I think it's Ron. vivian vivian From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 12:57:19 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:57:19 -0000 Subject: Hermione & parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102542 There's a lot of snippage here. Julie was listing possible reasons that we have not seen more of the Grangers: > 3. I think the main reason the Grangers have not visited the > Dursleys is because JKR hasn't wanted them to. Again, what would be > the plot value? It would, in fact, change the story if Vernon were > to respond, "Oh, a dentist's child goes there? Ok, it's fine." > That would take away the tension in the Dursely's and Harry's > wanting to leave so badly. Ginger: I have often wondered why Hermione hasn't told her parents about Harry and asked them, as respectable Muggles, to talk to them or turn them in. Surely it would be something they would understand. No magic needed at all. They seem like decent folks. On a funnier note: I had a wonderful chuckle imagining Dr. (Mama) Granger giving Vernon a root canal and happening to say something along the lines of "Dursley! Now I remember where I heard that name. My daughter is a classmate of your nephew, Harry." Bring on the laughing gas. Ginger, who can't believe that one year ago she had only read OoP twice. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 13:04:34 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:04:34 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <3e.409c0c39.2e0a7021@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102543 Melissa wrote: > I've always had the impression that ALL students arrive on the Express. > Seamus is Irish (presuming his folks still live in Ireland) and that's closer to > Scotland than London. > > Perhaps the students that have the furthest distance to travel to get to > London are portkeyed into a safe spot. . like they did for the QWC? Ginger: I wondered that too. Someone once wondered, and I agree, that the trip is part of the Hogwarts Experience. Otherwise, why not have them all Floo to Hogsmead? I do think that Floo is part of the answer. Using Seamus as an example, he and Mum could Floo to Diagon Alley (like Harry and Co. did in CoS) and hail a cab from there. His dad's a Muggle, so he could have taught them how to do it. Muggle-borns would have no trouble getting there, but I wonder about pure Wizard families with no Muggle knowledge. The Weasleys seem to have it down, but they have plenty of practice. Perhaps the Knight Bus is booked solid that day? I wonder about the Malfoys. Ginger, imagining the Knight Bus pulling up in front of King's Cross. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 13:33:27 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:33:27 -0000 Subject: Filk, with a listener advisory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102544 I want to put a warning label on this one. Anyone with a drop of the milk of human kindness in their veins may find it uncomfortable to read. It involves Snape's Worst Memory. If that scene is uncomfortable for you to read, or if you may find making light of it to be in bad taste, you may want to skip this filk. For the rest of us: Take his Underwear Down, Prongs. To the tune of Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport by Rolf Harris. To Haggridd-you had to put the song in my head, didn't you, Sport? The chorus is sung by Sirius, Peter, and enough assorted non- canonical students who are milling around in the scene to get a good harmony. Remus does not join in, and often stops himself from toe- tapping along. Peter: Let's call Snivilus names, James. Let's call Snivilus names. It's all good fun and games, James. Let's call Snivilus names. All together now! CHORUS: Take his underwear down, Prongs. Take his underwear down. Take his underwear down, Prongs. Take his underwear down. SIRIUS: Show the girls what you've got, Pott. Show the girls what you've got. Curse the sniveling snot, Pott. Show the girls what you've got. (chorus) PETER: Looks like Lily's irate, Mate. Looks like Lily's irate. Blown your chance for a date, Mate. Looks like Lily's irate. (chorus) LILY: You're an arrogant jerk, Berk. You're an arrogant jerk. You expect me just to lurk, Berk? You're an arrogant jerk. (chorus) PETER: Did you just hear that crud, Bud? Did you just hear that crud? He called her a mudblood, Bud. Did you just hear that crud? (chorus) SIRIUS: Make him pay for his wrongs, Prongs. Make him pay for his wrongs. Make him sing soapy songs, Prongs. Make him pay for his wrongs. (chorus) HARRY: (music slows) Watching this makes me sad, Dad. Watching this makes me sad. (a tempo) PRESENT DAY SNAPE: Did you find a scene you enjoy, Boy? Did you find a scene you enjoy? (chorus) Ginger, who feels a bit guilty using a song with such strong Australian lyrics for this subject. Sorry, Shaun. From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 23 13:36:57 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:36:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102545 wrote: > Does Lucius Malfoy know Sirius is an Animagus? >>imamommy: >>Yes. Wormtail would have told VM and the DE's<<< Oh yeah, duh me. Barbara bd-bear From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 13:37:48 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:37:48 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: <20040622162251.90066.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102546 moonmyyst wrote: I am still working on this one. I need some help. Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up with that start with the following letters: B D E G I L M N O R S T U W I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean something. vmonte responds: Look here: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi? anagram=B+D+E+G+I+L+M+N+O+R+S+T+U+W vivian From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 10:03:43 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:03:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102547 "Jen Reese" wrote: > "boyd_smythe" wrote: [snip] > ... The Grangers sound more like Dean's parents, knowing > only what Hermione tells them. However, check out JKR's site: http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=2 This is the extra background on Dean which never made it to the books. He's not muggle-born, he's half-and-half but never knew it. Apparently his mother knew something was up but never got the full story: Dean was scheduled to find out but his story was cut. -- Phil hoping that inclusion on JKR's site makes it near-enough-canon From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 11:16:42 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:16:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shippin g Controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102548 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: [snip] > There's a question on the World Book chat that particularly struck > me as odd, and I think it's related to what you said about Hermione > coming between Harry and Ron. (I'm paraphrasing, I don't have > interview here). > ------ > Q: Is Harry going to be back in the Quidditch Team on Book Six? > JKR: Harry is already on the team. Whether the new Captain lets him > stay is a whole other story? > ------ Oops, misquote alert. The actual quote (from the TLC transcript) is: bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay! HTH HAND -- Phil From paula at jefftrout.com Wed Jun 23 11:44:33 2004 From: paula at jefftrout.com (paulaboo1013) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:44:33 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > OOP pg. 163 "I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how > wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!" What are Fred > and I, next-door neighbors? > WHat bothers me about this statement and the first thing I thought of when I read it was: What about Ginny? She's not made prefect yet. Paulaboo From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:37:36 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:37:36 -0000 Subject: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102550 "serenadust" wrote: [wondering if Hermione is becoming estranged from her parents] > She very rarely mentions them, at least in Harry's presence I went to a Public School, of the type upon which Hogwarts is modelled, and I can assure you that I would have had no clue that most of my fellow pupils even *had* parents were it not for the tall people dropping them off and picking them up at the beginning/end of term. Visiting parents during term-time was strictly optional, as was telephooning or writing to them. I was not the best correspondent ;-) The only reason Ron's parents get so much coverage before OOP is that we actually visit his home; Harry's parents are obviously better candidates but we don't actually hear that much about them in conversation with Ron/Herm. Which other pupils do we hear from about their parents? Working from memory: Seamus mentions his because he's a half-blood; Neville's crop up totally separately; ... Can't recall any others. -- Phil From judy_magic333 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:27:55 2004 From: judy_magic333 at yahoo.co.uk (judy_magic333) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:27:55 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with being bad ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava" wrote: > But it would seem to me, as Del suggests, that there are > far worse things than name-calling. First of all, since this will be my first post (at least in a very long time), let me re-introduce myself. My name is Judy -- I am a late-comer to HP but am fully addicted now and enjoy reading some of the threads posted here and on the Movie egroup. I used to live in the US (specifically, in North Carolina), but moved to Scotland seven months ago to get married, where I now live very happily, though I miss some things I took for granted while living in the US. At any rate, Scotland is a beautiful country, and my husband and I (sometimes with our border collie, Inca) go out on Saturdays to spend time at various places in Scotland that we can get to and back by train within one day. My favorite place so far is Loch Lomond. Anyway, I have been reading this thread with great interest, which I have found thoughtful and intellectually stimulating. Based on the quote I opened my post with, I wanted to jump in and comment here. Though some good points have been made on both sides, I lean heavily to one overall side in this discussion. You see, I was the childhood victim of psychological/emotional abuse. I had no friends to confide in, being instead the target of teasing and put-downs, and most especially none of the teachers gave me any inspiration to rise above my "programming" at home. In fact, my 5th grade teacher humiliated me in front of the whole class over something outside of class that was a matter of personal preference, and I have yet to get over that incident, having flashbacks to this very day. Some of you might say, what has this to do with the discussion? Well, I'll tell you -- I have had teachers like Snape, and there have been times when even my parents treated me the way Snape treats certain students. And, I can speak from personal experience that this does *not* inspire you to learn or lose weight (for instance). In fact, it has the opposite effect -- living down to their bad "predictions", so to speak. Where else do they have to go, when there is noone telling them that they *are* better than what the teacher or parents tells them?? Granted, Harry has a strong enough personality to let much of the abuse slide off him like water off a duck, and it helps that he has Ron, Hermione, most of the other Weasleys, Lupin and sometimes DD encouraging him. But, someone like Neville doesn't have a support system, certainly not enough of one to help him overcome criticisms coming from all sides. Hearing the kind of thing Snape spews at students like Harry and Neville all the time is not what is needed to give you the inspiration to better yourself. You have to have someone who tells you that you *can* do it. Someone like me didn't have the belief in myself to do this on my own, just as Neville doesn't, since all we hear is what a scew-up we are. Fortunately -- though it took 50 years -- I met a man who loves me and encourages me always, even with my faults, and now I am married to him. I can only hope that Neville will come to have someone (friend, teacher or companion) to give him the encouragement he needs. And that Snape's abuse toward Harry and him (Harry) being blamed for things he didn't do will not be an obstacle in the coming days when he will face the worse battles of his life, where his life and the lives of others are at stake. Little seeds can grown to be big weeds, so to speak. From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 23 13:25:03 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:25:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperio! - but who and when? References: <604CD837-C50B-11D8-B7C9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <00de01c45925$7e06bf90$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 102552 From: Kneasy > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > (probably) the next book? > > IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. > Ariana: Yes, I would put Ron at the top of a hot list of targets for manipulation, blackmail or possession. Aside from anything, the effect on Harry when he discovered that his best friend betrayed him (even against his will) would be devastating. And the books certainly don't hold back from anything devastating to Harry. ;) I'm not sure about Imperio, though, as I got the impression that spell seems to cause the victim to behave in a dream-like state. On the other hand, I think I'm basing my impression on the description of what it feels like for the victim, so it must be possible to make the victim look normal, or the Death Eaters who used it as a defence couldn't have evaded Azkaban! Ariana From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:51:50 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:51:50 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102553 "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Other than Dumbledore, we haven't seen anyone treating their Elves > as anything higher than dirt. Who else have we seen with a house-elf? Malfoy, Crouch, the Black Family. Not exactly cheerleading for the Army of Light. ISTR the Weasleys wanted a house-elf: Ron says his mother wanted one to help with the ironing at the beginning of CoS. You can bet a house-elf at the Burrow would have a better time of it. We simply don't have enough samples to see how the generality of house-elf "masters" treat them. -- Phil From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 13:57:00 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040623135700.46870.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102554 vmonte wrote: moonmyyst wrote: I am still working on this one. I need some help. Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up with that start with the following letters: B D E G I L M N O R S T U W I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean something. vmonte responds: Look here: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi? anagram=B+D+E+G+I+L+M+N+O+R+S+T+U+W vivian Thanks Vivian!! DROOBLES Dumbledore, Recall Order O---- Bellatrix Lestrange E------- Spell moonmyyst (who is having a blast!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 14:04:52 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:04:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102555 In a message dated 06/22/2004 12:21:06 PM Central Daylight Time, tmar78 at yahoo.com writes: > . I understand > that it was stuck permanently to the wall, but > couldn't they have cut a hole in the wall around the > portrait in order to get it down? Then they could've > patched up the hole in the wall and -voila!- bye bye > Mrs. Black! Maybe they could've sent Kreacher to the > Malfoy's w/ the portrait w/ orders never to come back. > I wonder how the Malfoys would've reacted to having > that portrait scream constantly? :) > Now there's an idea! Hmm maybe using what amounts to be a muggle solution for a magical problem never occured to them. However I doubt that the portrait wold have screamed constantly at the Malfoys. Mrs. Black probably would have been perfectly happy being surrounded by purebloods with not a "blood traitor" in sight Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 23 14:10:07 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:10:07 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > We simply don't have enough samples to see how the generality of > house-elf "masters" treat them.> Yes, and isn't it interesting that JKR has not chosen to reveal any other Wizarding families who have Elves? We have only seen Elves with people who are jerks to begin with (with the exception of Dumbledore, who we know who set them free and pay them if they asked). I wonder if the Weasleys would even have an Elf if they came into a lot of money. I can see Arthur and Molly both choosing not to enslave an Elf. Like I said before, it takes someone who enjoys power and authority over others to not only keep an Elf, but to treat them as badly as we've seen. The Malfoys are vile and disgusting people who believe they are above all others. The Blacks' home, what we've heard from Sirius, and that awful portrait of his mother gives us a good sense that these were not nice people. Even Crouch, who started with good intentions, let his job go to his head in a way that was the ruin of him in the end. I am not surprised that these are the Wizarding families who keep Elves. --jenny from ravenclaw From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 14:24:44 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:24:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione & parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102558 On a funnier note: I had a wonderful chuckle imagining Dr. (Mama) > Granger giving Vernon a root canal and happening to say something > along the lines of "Dursley! Now I remember where I heard that > name. My daughter is a classmate of your nephew, Harry." Bring on > the laughing gas. > > Ginger, who can't believe that one year ago she had only read OoP > twice. I thought of something along those lines as well, and giggled aloud. THEN, I had to explain to my husband why I was laughing, which was even funnier. He said, "When you're married to a shrink and she starts laughing for no reason, it's time to get a little concerned!" Julie -- who has a whole new image when the sound of a dentist's drill is heard! From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 14:44:21 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:44:21 -0000 Subject: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: <40D964CE.31620.83C5CC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102559 Like I say, estrangement might not be the best word - but I'm not > claiming there's a lack of love shown. > > I just think Hermione and her parents are in very different worlds > and that's creating some problems. > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > = (Major Snipping of a good post): The Webster's New World Dictionary defines estrangement as "to turn from an affectionate attitude to an indifferent and unfriendly one." I think one thing we are getting into is the difference of opinion people have regarding the concepts of "affectionate," "indifferent," and "unfriendly." My opinion is that we are *not* seeing Hermione becoming indifferent and unfriendly toward her parents. She is growing up and experiencing a world very different from her parents and chooses to pursue this new world, but I do not see her having a less affectionate attitude, etc. Also, in the passage quoted in the previous post, Hermione is said to "disengage" from her parents to join Harry and the group. To disengage emplies that one must be *engaged* first. Again, IMO, this is showing that Hermione *does* have a good relationship with her parents. Somewhat to my dismay (because I really like the Grangers and would love to know more about them), at this point they simply are minor characters in an epic septology, and JKR has chosen to not mention too much about them. If they have a greater plot value, we will hear more about them. If not, they will continue to be Hermione's intelligent, professional, muggle parents and the reason Draco calls her a "mudblood." Julie From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 14:44:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:44:17 -0000 Subject: Harry & Ron's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102560 Jacqui wrote : > Have you seen any other posts where she suggests that Harry wont > make it through as well??? Del replies : Sorry Jacqui, but JKR has made it quite clear that we must not take Harry's survival for granted. She's not saying he will die for sure, but she *is* saying he might. Her favourite answer to whatever question concerning Harry's future after Hogwarts goes usually along the line of "what makes you so sure he'll survive ?" Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 23 14:55:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:55:31 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: <20040622162251.90066.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102561 moonmyyst: > I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean something. > > moonmyyst (who has way too much time on her hands even with a full time job, starting a new business, showing shelties, running after kids, taking care of parents... and all without a time-turner!!) Jen: There was someone last fall who thinks alot like Hermione, hermiongallo is her handle in fact! Anyway, she worked extensively on an anagrams for Droobles and came up with a few almost complete ones. I couldn't find the exact wording in the archives, but one was about "gold under St. Mungos" and another had to do with the Goblins. Interesting enough, her speculation was that Luna would be the one to figure it out because she tends to see things others don't. I spent about a week trying to work out an anagram myself and found quite a few individual words that fit like Muggle & Umbridge, but that's about it. It was fun and addictive though! If you or anyone else is interested, there was a TBAY this summer on all the suspicious activities on the Janus Thickey ward and a conspiracy to keep the Longbottoms ill (with Lucius as the prime candidate). Here are the links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80592 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80761 Jen, who will probably get hooked on anagrams again thanks to moonmyyst :). From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 14:56:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:56:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron, Harry & Cho, the Yule Ball In-Reply-To: <009001c458b7$059c3800$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102562 > (GOF, US version, p 400) "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now > blushing, "because I'm already going with someone." Del comments : Isn't that scene uncannily reminiscent of one that took place just minutes before ? GOF, UK version, p 346 : "D'you - d'you want to go to the ball with me ?" said Harry. Why did he have to go red now ? Why ? "Oh !" said Cho, and she went red, too. "Oh, Harry, I'm really sorry," and she looked it too. "I've already said I'll go with someone else." So what do we have ? Two girls, being asked to the Ball, blushing, and saying they are already going with someone else. Neither of them says that she's not interested, they both insist on the fact that they *have* to refuse because they are already taken... And we do know that Cho probably meant it when she said she was sorry, that she might very well have accepted Harry's offer if only he'd asked before Cedric did, and that she was probably already interested in Harry. Interesting comparison, isn't it :-) ? And just 3 pages apart too ! Del From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 14:57:57 2004 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:57:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione & parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102563 fanofminerva wrote: > 1. JKR can't possibly cover everything about all the characters in > 7 books. We hear about the other families (Weasleys, Potters, > Longbottoms, even Dursleys) because they in some way are tied to the > plot of HP vs LV, but the Grangers are not (at least not yet; we > don't know what's coming in 6 & 7). I don't think JKR needs to give us background information on the Grangers. Hermione's reaction to their deaths would be enough to affect Harry because he knows it was her relationship to him that caused their deaths. Also, the simple fact that JKR's not given us information on the Grangers is enough to make me think that they are going to be targeted, as well as Hermione stating that she would like to see threstrals. It's inevitable, in my opinion, being that Hermione is Harry's bestfriend; Pettigrew knows how close she is to Harry; and Lucius cannot stand her because she's Muggle-born. Voldemort and the DE's will try, again, to get to Harry where it will hurt him most: his friends. Grace From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 15:06:28 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:06:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves Message-ID: <6.2c5f7617.2e0af674@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102564 In a message dated 06/21/2004 7:18:39 PM Central Daylight Time, Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com writes: > And as for Kreacher... I wonder where he is now? Still at Grimmauld > Place or perhaps at Narcissa's? I wonder how much information > regarding the Order he has divulged? Why didn't Sirius just get rid > of him in the first place? Questions, questions, questions... > I need a new copy of COS but as far as I can remember, Ron says something to the effect of Molly wishing they could afford a house elf but elves were only found in the big mansions. That could imply that the Elves are fixtures of the houses as well as being bound to the family that lives there. Example: Elves are bound to a family but the family dies off. The elf remains attached to the mansion and when/if a new wizarding family moves in, the elf then becomes bound to that family. Hmm its possible that Sirius considered his own mortality and made a will leaving 12 Grimmauld Place and all of it accouterments (Kreacher included) to Harry. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 23 15:15:30 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:15:30 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's secret message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102565 Neri: Now, what if this message that Alice is > trying to tell Neville is the same information for which she was tortured? > > If so, it's not likely to be the whereabouts of Vapormort 14 years ago. This would be an > anticlimax. No, it should be something else. Something that was extremely important 14 years > ago and is still extremely important today. It is not the prophecy either. This will also be > an anticlimax. It should be something that DD doesn't know, maybe doesn't even guess. Bella > might have inkling what it is about (or why did she take the risk that landed her in Azkaban > for trying to pry it out of the Longbottoms) but she doesn't know the important part and she > probably believes it was erased with the rest of the Longbottom's minds and lost forever. Jen: I've thought about this and read other theories, but none seem to fit. One theory was Bella et.al. knew that the Longbottoms, as Aurors, may have been involved with questioning Sirius when he was sent to Azkaban. Bella hoped the Longbottoms picked up something useful from him. I do think the Prophecy could come into play here, without being too anticlimatic. If the inner circle of DE's knew the first part of the Prophecy, they also knew Neville was a possible enemy to Voldemort. They could have gone after the Longbottoms seeking knowledge of the Prophecy to understand what made Voldemort turn to vapor. Not knowing the second half of the Prophecy, they didn't realize Harry had already been marked as the equal. Another thought is something to do with the Department of Mysteries. Maybe some research Alice was aware of that will have importance later on. People have even suggested Dumbledore is behind the lack of recovery of the Longbottoms, keeping them loopy for their own protection because they do know classified information, perhaps about the force more wonderful and more terrible than death. I can't agree with this one, though, Dumbledore apologist that I am. I tend to think if anyone is involved with drugging them (via the Droobles of course) it would be Lucius. But why would he want to keep them insane unless they know something about him? That could be a possibility. The DE's tortured the Longbottoms to find out about their interrogation of the escaped DE's. Anyone else? Jen Reese From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 15:17:00 2004 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:17:00 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > moonmyyst: > > I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come > up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of > some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? > Jen: There was someone last fall who thinks alot like Hermione, > hermiongallo is her handle in fact! Anyway, she worked extensively > on an anagrams for Droobles and came up with a few almost complete > ones. I couldn't find the exact wording in the archives, but one was > about "gold under St. Mungos" and another had to do with the > Goblins. Interesting enough, her speculation was that Luna would be > the one to figure it out because she tends to see things others > don't. > > I spent about a week trying to work out an anagram myself and found > quite a few individual words that fit like Muggle & Umbridge, but > that's about it. It was fun and addictive though! Peg: As one of the original crew of the good ship SILK GOWNS (see Jen's links for an explanation!) I'd be happy to see somebody else tackle this. Sally (hermionegallo) and I worked ourselves to a frazzle trying to come up with something that looked reasonable. We remained pretty certain that there's a code there, somewhere, but couldn't crack it. We both suspected that Luna and Hermione will get together on this in Book 6, but we wanted to beat JKR to the punch. Sadly, she seems to have outfoxed us. And I ended up with indexing cards spread all over my apartment. vmonte, I think I still have some of the lists we generated. Drop me an email off list, and I can send them on to you, just so you can try and get a feel for what we were doing. Peg From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jun 23 15:28:03 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:28:03 -0400 Subject: Chapter 20 discussion References: <1087807800.10475.73907.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006301c45936$ad172de0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 102567 >[4] With the revelation of his mother's >death in this chapter, Hagrid is now >confirmed to be another example of orphans >in the HP books. Compare and contrast >Hagrid with Harry, Tom Riddle/LV, Neville, >etc. How has each orphan's loss of parental >figures and family ties affected their lives >and the decisions that they make? What >influences did the people (or the lack of >thereof) in their lives who fill such voids >have on who they are now? Hagrid apparently has always had a fascination with strange and unusual pets as we see from Aragog in PoA. Pets love unconditionally so Hagrid naturally went to them, no matter how dangerous, and believed he could tame them or make them love him the way he loved them. We see this as well with Norbert the Dragon when Hargid doesn't *see* the damage Norbert is causing to the house and says it's Ron's fault when the dragon bites him during feeding. Hagrid is trying to replace his mother's love with being a caregiver, a *mommy*, to creatures who are helpless and need a mother. Harry still longs for a family and feels Hogwarts and the WW is his family. Ron & Hermione are his closest friends, and as McGonnagal said in SS your house becomes your family. But he still longs for a father figure and has turned to Fake Moody, Sirius, Lupin and DD to be that to him. The sorting hat said Harry had a desire to prove himself. He wants to show everyone that he is a person of worth. His searching for a father figure though may be part of his downfall. He had put James & Sirius on a pedestal and was let down when he saw Snape's memories of the two. If he keeps looking for a *perfect* father figure he will continue to be disappointed. Tom/LV turned to dark magic in order to control what he couldn't control. His mother may have been a pureblood wizard who either raised him to think badly of his father or, if she wasn't around before he attended Hogwarts, chose the WW over the muggle world and believed the pureblood families that said wizards were "above" the muggles. Tom/LV is still trying to control what is beyond his control and it makes him even angrier because he has failed now 5 times. Neville seems to be the quiet one and he doesn't seem to want any type of attention. The scene in the hospital shows he still loves his parents and he keeps the wrapper because his mother gave it to him. He never really talks about them but I don't feel it's because he's ashamed of them, it's because he doesn't want to be noticed or attract attention in any way. Because he tries so hard NOT to attract attention though it makes him clumsier, more forgetful and just more obvious. He has an extended family but always felt left out because he didn't think he was *magic enough*. He probably has the need to show his family that he is a person of worth as well, just like Harry, but maybe it won't be in a magical way as his family (Gran, uncles) feel is important. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us Wed Jun 23 15:45:53 2004 From: ladymacbeth at ladymacbethsrealm.us (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:45:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102568 David said: Given that Kreacher is nowhere near the kind of loss of faculties at which euthanasia begins to be discussed IRL, what is your canon basis for saying that Dumbledore 'should know better'? Your wording above 'letting a person...' rather connotes a very passive approach to Kreacher's rehabilitation - do you rule out all possibility of active engagement to get him to at least have a happier life, if not develop a finer moral sense? Lady Macbeth replied: I don't have the quotes for these points, because I don't have my book with me right now. However, here's the basis of what I was thinking when I wrote that: - Dumbledore's watched Winky FOR A YEAR NOW sit in the kitchens and be a falling down drunk, with no promise to do more. No, he doesn't mind. Other masters would. Would YOU want your servant NOT doing their job and instead drinking themselves into numbness every night? Dobby's and anyone else's attempts to engage her have just sent her further into self-pity. - Kreacher, on the other hand, is the agressive to Winky's passive - HE hasn't done squat since Mrs. Black died, otherwise Grimmauld Place wouldn't be in NEARLY the condition it's in. He's made no effort to contribute to the cleanup effort other than to fish things out of the garbage and squirrel them away somewhere. (Anyone who's had a child do this while you're in the process of cleaning their room knows how much help THAT is.) He's intentionally nasty EVERYONE who visits, pureblood to muggleborn and is especially venemous to Hermione, the one who is MAKING the effort to ENGAGE him in conversation and TRYING to get him to have a happier life via kind words, attempts to ACTIVELY ENGAGE him in conversation, and giving him a blanket for Christmas even though he's been nothing but a royal arse to her. - Rather than engage Sirius in any activity himself, even pretending to be nice to him or pretending he'd caused a problem somewhere, he INJURED Buckbeak to keep Sirius occupied during the time Harry might come looking for him. - I mentioned Dumbledore's age, because at that age a person has seen MANY people come and go. Winky and Kreacher would be very unique indeed if they were the ONLY elves belonging to estates left without an heir, especially since we know that there was at least one previous reign of terror by Voldemort. Dumbledore has made no expression that Winky or Kreacher's states of mind and being are at all strange or unique. SAD, yes. UNFORTUNATE, yes. But it seems, at least in his mind, something that would normally happen to them with the loss of their families. However, the impression I get from the books is that Dumbledore is the type who eternally believes of the possibility of "that which has never happened before happening". PERHAPS Winky and/or Kreacher will recover. PERHAPS this won't have to be a long and bloody war with Voldemort. He's an OPTIMIST, something I have a hard time being. What disturbs me the most is that he's SUCH an optimist that he LET Kreacher continue living in Grimmauld Place, NOT concerned that he was a danger in any way to any of the inhabitants there, and NOT concerned that Kreacher's displayed secretive, vengeful and underlying violent behavior would ever come to play against any of them. - Kreacher's displayed most blatantly, through a series of "aggravating" but not harmful behaviors all the way up to his endangering Harry and Sirius, where his moral sense and happiness lie. How much longer can he/should he continue on like that, should rehabilitation of any kind even be possible for him? -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jun 23 15:52:12 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:52:12 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <00de01c45925$7e06bf90$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102569 > Kneasy wrote: > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > (probably) the next book? > > IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. boyd: Kneasy, you old dog! Excellent thought--such a concept hadn't even occurred to me. While Ron would appear to be the frontrunner, don't count out the big bangyness of *Krum* (who transfers to Hogwarts, becomes captain of the Gryf quiddich team and kicks Ron off, romances Hermione to try to lure her and Harry to their dooms, sets up Good!Snape for the fall, and then turns out to be GoodButImperio'd!Krum). But the other question is: who does the Imperio'ing? Someone close enough to control them, someone like...the new DADA (not Snape)? OK, I may have just set records in both longest limb to climb out on and longest parenthetical comment. My apologies to the board. But Kneasy's question is a good one, and may end up being a central part of Book 6, where we will hopefully see the last of the mistaken identity and can't judge a book by its cover themes. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 23 15:58:56 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:58:56 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <00de01c45925$7e06bf90$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102570 Kneasy > > > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > > (probably) the next book? IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. > Ariana: > Yes, I would put Ron at the top of a hot list of targets for manipulation, blackmail or possession. Aside from anything, the effect on Harry when he discovered that his best friend betrayed him (even against his will) would be devastating. And the books certainly don't hold back from anything devastating to Harry. ;) > > I'm not sure about Imperio, though, as I got the impression that spell seems to cause the victim to behave in a dream-like state. On the other hand, I think I'm basing my impression on the description of what it feels like for the victim, so it must be possible to make the victim look normal, or the Death Eaters who used it as a defence couldn't have evaded Azkaban! Mandy here: If the victims of the Imperio existed in a dream like state they would be very easy to spot and whisked off to St Mungos before they could do any harm. As you say many DE used the 'I was forced to under the Imerio' excuse and they got away with it. So there are no easily recognizable symptoms of the curse. However it will depend on what the victim is asked to too. If a witch/wizard is being forced to do to something so out of character their loved ones may begin to suspect something. But that's down to the skill of the person inflicting the curse, to control another person but make it appear they are still acting with the bounds of normalcy. I think the victim behaves in anyway the aggressor wants them to behave. Instructs them to perform physical tasks and controls their emotional state as well. What power! I can tell you I'm seduced by it. Would I be tempted to use it if I had the skill? Oh, yeah. Resisting we know is very hard and rare. It was shown to drive Crouch Sr. insane fighting against LV imperio in GoF. He must have been a fighter, and I can't imagine what pain and suffering crouch Sr. was under before he died. As for who's next? Definitely Ron. If anyone is ripe for plucking it's him. Devoted, loyal and most importantly, naively innocent. Ron is so willing to blindly follow Harry, that it would be unacceptable for anyone to imagine Ron harming Harry in anyway and there lies the power in putting him under the Imperious Curse. Mandy From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 15:30:50 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:30:50 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: (snip) > To connect all the dots, you need to go back to GOF in the chapter on the > Quidditch World Cup. Mr. Weasley is telling the kids who is who as he says > hello to passers-by from the ministry...and he says, "Bode and Croker ... > they're Unspeakables." Nadine : Maybe it is Croker who visited Bode... But if the kids recognized Bode lying in his bed as the bloke whom they saw at the World Quidditch Cup a few months before, they would have recognize Croker as well standing near St. Mungo's welcome desk. A couple of months ago (I'm sorry, I couldn't find the posts) there was speculations that the visitor was Wormtail in disguise with his silver hand transfigured into a hearing device. I would like to stress the word ?disguise? because I came across something interesting while I was rereading GoF. In the first chapter (The Riddle House), Wormtail tries to convince Voldy to use another wizard instead of Harry (for the dark magic rebirth potion) and he says : ?You know that I can disguise myself most effectively.? Is Wormtail referring to his hability as an animagus or is he mentionning other ways of successfully transforming his appearance ? I think the visitor was a DE nevertheless... Nadine ;-) From lisa at lau13.de Wed Jun 23 14:36:58 2004 From: lisa at lau13.de (Ute John) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:36:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperio! - but who and when? References: Message-ID: <00a101c4592f$90b32110$152ca8c0@TUTEN> No: HPFGUIDX 102572 > Kneasy wrote: > > No, I don't think that this little wrinkle (Imperio!) was > introduced > > with Harry in mind at all, at least not directly. What readers > tend to > > miss is that most if not all of the rest of the class remain > > susceptible to the curse. As a plot device it's critical use is > still > > to come. > > > > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > > (probably) the next book? > > > > IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. > > > > Potioncat: > I think you're on to something! If the one casting "Imperio!" is as > clever as Crouch!Moody, the behavior won't even seem too out of > character given the circumstances at the time. > Also, please don't forget that Ron seemed to have the most problems with the "Imperio" curse. After they are done with class (UK GoF, paperback, page 205) : "Yeah, I know," said Ron, who was skipping on every alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry, though Moody assured him the effects would have worn off by lunchtime. And remember, Moody also made the curious remark in first class, when Ron answered the question about the unforgivable curses : "my dad told me about one ... is it called the Imperius curse, or something?" "Ah, yes," said Moody appreciatively. "Your father would know that one. Gave the Ministry a lot of trouble at one time, the Imperius curse". So it seems to me since Ron has more problems fighting the curse than others, and Moody made the remark about Ron's father - that Ron probably will be put under this spell in the next book. Ute [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jun 23 16:10:13 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:10:13 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102573 > Mandy wrote: > As for who's next? Definitely Ron. If anyone is ripe for plucking > it's him. Devoted, loyal and most importantly, naively innocent. > Ron is so willing to blindly follow Harry, that it would be > unacceptable for anyone to imagine Ron harming Harry in anyway and > there lies the power in putting him under the Imperious Curse. > > Mandy But if we've learned anything from JKR, it's that the obvious rarely happens. If we all think Ron is so obvious for this, then wouldn't that make him a less liekly target? Plus, JKR likes letting the trio make their own choices. Ron would assumedly have no choice with an imperio. (After all, it was not Hermione who read the diary in COS.) That's why I think some less well-known character whom the trio do not suspect as evil will be the one. I suggested Krum in my previous post for the chaos that could be created within the trio, but it could be Dean, Cho, even one of the minor teachers--anyone trusted who could be used to lead the trio into danger. boyd From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 23 16:13:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:13:17 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > Kneasy, you old dog! Excellent thought--such a concept hadn't even > occurred to me. > > While Ron would appear to be the frontrunner, don't count out the big > bangyness of *Krum* (who transfers to Hogwarts, becomes captain of > the Gryf quiddich team and kicks Ron off, romances Hermione to try to > lure her and Harry to their dooms, sets up Good!Snape for the fall, > and then turns out to be GoodButImperio'd!Krum). But the other > question is: who does the Imperio'ing? Someone close enough to > control them, someone like...the new DADA (not Snape)? > > OK, I may have just set records in both longest limb to climb out on > and longest parenthetical comment. My apologies to the board. But > Kneasy's question is a good one, and may end up being a central part > of Book 6, where we will hopefully see the last of the mistaken > identity and can't judge a book by its cover themes. Nothing wrong with climbing out on a limb; the worst that can happen is for JKR to come along and saw it off. Krum, now. Possible, but didn't herself hint that he probably won't be seen until book 7? Or has my memory failed again? But the dastardly deed of the sneaky Imperio! might be delayed until then, too. As to who does the Imperio-ing - the traitor of course! It's a bit late to be introducing significant new characters I'd have thought, and we haven't had a decent betrayal since I don't know when. Could be Percy - that'd cause some angst at the Burrow; maybe Lupin, that'd upset some and please a few. 'Course it could be mundane - Malfoy Snr. lurking in the shrubbery perhaps. As a real outsider - how about Dobby? Never did take to him. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 23 16:17:42 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:17:42 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > But if we've learned anything from JKR, it's that the obvious rarely > happens. If we all think Ron is so obvious for this, then wouldn't > that make him a less liekly target? Plus, JKR likes letting the trio > make their own choices. Ron would assumedly have no choice with an > imperio. (After all, it was not Hermione who read the diary in COS.) > If you think Ron's too obvious, how about Hermione? Whoo! Now that would be fun! Unexpected, too. Kneasy From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jun 23 16:27:20 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:27:20 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102576 > Kneasy wrote: > As to who does the Imperio-ing - the traitor of course! It's a bit late to > be introducing significant new characters I'd have thought, and we > haven't had a decent betrayal since I don't know when. > > Could be Percy - that'd cause some angst at the Burrow; maybe Lupin, > that'd upset some and please a few. 'Course it could be mundane - > Malfoy Snr. lurking in the shrubbery perhaps. > > As a real outsider - how about Dobby? Never did take to him. > > Kneasy I like the thought on Dobby, since he's meddled before, but I don't see him as a possible traitor. He just seems so dead set against hurting Harry. On the other hand, maybe he'd imperio someone to keep Harry out of harm's way. Seems a bit extreme, but we've seen extreme from him. As for not introducing new characters, the new DADA (and possible imperio'er) could easily be someone we've seen or heard of before. An auror like Shackleford, an OoP'er like one of the older Weasley boys, or one of the many names that have been dropped with little fanfare throughout the series. And any of these could be the traitor. I still like Tonks for that, though. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 16:52:31 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:52:31 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > > > But if we've learned anything from JKR, it's that the obvious rarely > > happens. If we all think Ron is so obvious for this, then wouldn't > > that make him a less liekly target? Plus, JKR likes letting the trio > > make their own choices. Ron would assumedly have no choice with an > > imperio. (After all, it was not Hermione who read the diary in COS.) > > > > If you think Ron's too obvious, how about Hermione? > Whoo! Now that would be fun! Unexpected, too. > > Kneasy Not too unexpected. Remember she was the only one in the class who didn't receive a dose of the imperius curse from Crouch/Moody when he was teaching the class. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jun 23 17:05:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:05:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Hermione & Ron / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102578 Hermione is Harry's friend, that's all. She has shown no jealousy towards Cho and even tried to offer advice. Christina in GA > Gina : Well what we are debating is not who LIKED whom but who will END UP with whom! And I think OOTP is pretty obvious!!!! Think about it - Hermione is always with Harry! 1) Hermione tries to find out if Harry likes her by making the "tell her how ugly you think I am" remark 2) Hermione leaves Ron's quiddich match without a thought to follow Harry into the woods with Hagrid 3) Hermione offers to go into Umbridge's office with Harry and Harry, "recognizes her loyalty" 4) Harry always protects Hermione (centaurs, Grawp, etc) 5) This time when Hermione gets scared she grabs Harry's hand/arm. 6) When the DEs come Harry grabs Hermione - not Luna not Ginny HERMIONE and lets everyone else fend for themselves 7) NEVILLE is constantly taking up for Ginny (Inquisitorial Squad and in the DoM) 8) Ron is in the DoM with Ginny and LUNA!!!! Gina - who thinks what is obvious is that things are about to change! JKR put THOSE characters in the DoM for a reason - even Harry commented it should have been any other three. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 17:09:41 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:09:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truly horrifying thought.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102579 | From: Geoff Bannister | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:43 AM [Arya]: | > Oh my god, she actually report the *gasp* TRUTH!!!! | > I think this would actually be a possible improvement. Think of | the lying, scheming | > Ministry oficials she could out. | [Geoff]: | Rita Skeeter reporting the /truth/? | | You can-not be serious! Why on earth would she do that? It's far more | interesting inventing stories about people such as Harry...... [Lee]: Ya know...maybe her success with the Quibbler and then having the story picked up by the Daily Prophet might...just might convince her that truth actually works. Okay, she was under oath, so to speak, to Hermione (sometimes blackmail is cool, huh?), but her putting out the truths given her was definitely a good thing. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 17:16:04 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DA Question -Who Signed & Who Spoke. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102580 [Geoff]: | It was the 28 I was referring to in my earlier comments. I agree with | another poster that this was 25 plus the trio. | | Lee's quote is p,331 in the UK editions. I also found: | [Lee]: Thanks, Geoff...I thought about that one, but had to give my hand a rest. :-) Fortunately, it's back in service today...well, mostly. :-) I don't see myself cassting complicated right-handed spells yet. :-) But, yes, 25 plus the trio...then Finigan joins...so I'm guessing that actually brought the total to 29. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jun 23 17:23:39 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:23:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Broderick Bode's visitor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102581 As I was rereading OOP again, I was trying to connect all the dots on Broderick Bode. The trio figures out that he was killed because he was regaining speech and memory. But how did VM know that? This thinking led me to wonder, who was his visitor the day after Arthur was attacked? the old man with the listening device? Was he as innocuous as he seemed? Was JKR just keeping Bode's name in our minds, or is there more to this man than is obvious? imamommy Gina: Heearing device? Could that have been Tofte - the wizard that gave Harry his exams? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jun 23 17:31:06 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:31:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Longbottom's secret message Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102582 Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured to insanity by Bellatrix et al trying to pry some secret information out of them. What was that information? Crouch Sr. said in the Pensieve trial that it was the whereabouts of Vapormort. Could be, but what if it was something else? So what is it? Any suggestions? Neri Gina : Did anyone other than me think maybe Neville knew about the prophecy? I just read that chapter and Harry noticed Neville sweating when Neville asked him NOT to take it off the shelf!!! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jun 23 17:33:58 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:33:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Droobles Best Blowing Gum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102583 * I am still working on this one. I need some help. Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up with that start with the following letters: B D E G I L M N O R S T U W I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean something. moonmyyst (who has way too much time on her hands even with a full time job, starting a new business, showing shelties, running after kids, taking care of parents... and all without a time-turner!!) Gina : Umbrigde can be spelled from it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 23 17:38:26 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (Jenny) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:38:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Elves (Was: Elf Beheading?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" < ladymacbeth at l...> wrote: > - Dumbledore's watched Winky FOR A YEAR NOW sit in the kitchens and be a falling down drunk, with no promise to do more. No, he doesn't mind. Other masters would. Would YOU want your servant NOT doing their job and instead drinking themselves into numbness every night? Dobby's and anyone else's attempts to engage her have just sent her further into self- pity.> I reply: It is true that Dumbledore hasn't done much in the way of helping Winky, but I'm not so sure there is anything to be done. Winky is a disgraced Elf; no one else would have her, but Dumbledore took her in at Dobby's request. He has already done something kind for her. If he let her go again, she'd be homeless. It also seems to me that he has enough Elves to do an excellent job caring for Hogwarts. He may have Winky around out of pity, not to serve. Lady Macbeth: > However, the impression I get from the books is that Dumbledore is the type who eternally believes of the possibility of "that which has never happened before happening". PERHAPS Winky and/or Kreacher will recover. PERHAPS this won't have to be a long and bloody war with Voldemort. He's an OPTIMIST, something I have a hard time being. What disturbs me the most is that he's SUCH an optimist that he LET Kreacher continue living in Grimmauld Place, NOT concerned that he was a danger in any way to any of the inhabitants there, and NOT concerned that Kreacher's displayed secretive, vengeful and underlying violent behavior would ever come to play against any of them.> Me: Let me get this straight - you believe *Dumbledore* should have made the decision to send Kreacher away from the Black home even though Dumbledore does not live there and has no jurisdiction over what goes on there? Am I wrong? Dumbledore isn't perfect. He makes mistakes and occasionally makes bad decisions. I think it would be a stretch for us to believe he could have foreseen Kreacher's reprehensible actions. Kreacher is not his Elf and we don't really have evidence that he knows Kreacher (or even Winky, for that matter) particularly well. I don't think anyone, even Sirius who knew Kreacher best, would have been able to guess that Kreacher would leave the house to confide in another Black family member. --jenny from ravenclaw From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Jun 23 17:57:43 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:57:43 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40D6AC82.28449.2A47C4A@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: Snape is a hard taskmaster. When his students do not perform to the standard he expects, he lets them know about it. There is nothing invalid about that as a method of teaching. Not all teachers do it, but plenty do, and their students often learn very effectively in the classroom. They work harder to avoid being told off. Me: I know I'm late to reply but I'm so behind. Yall have been busy! I felt I had to input my personal 2 cents on this. For one, great post dude. Right on target. When I was in school for Lab Tech, it was the same sort of thing. You *had* to be able to do the tasks right. No half way. I had barely started my 2nd term. The others in my class had been there a few before me and knew how our teacher was. Well, I made a mistake in microbiology with a plate and sample. LOL She really laid into me. Needless to say, from there on out, I made it my top priority to be the absolute best at what I did. I had mediocre grades in high school, but some how I ended up being a straight A student. I worked harder to keep the teacher from laying into me again. She ended up being a good friend of mine because she respected my drive and determination. Some subjects, the teachers do have to be harder because there is no half way. Either totally correct or not at all. Potions AND in health care. I also believe this is the reason Snape never gets the DADA position. He's a stellar potionsmaster (at least its implied particularly when we're told he is making Lupin's difficult potion. Not Pompfrey or anyone else) and they probably could NOT find someone to fill the potionmaster shoes as WELL as Snape. Sorry if I drifted off, but I felt the need to reitrate that point about some not being able to be half right in some subjects. Thread Drift Sen From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 17:59:08 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:59:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <00de01c45925$7e06bf90$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102587 | From: Ariana | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:25 AM | Ariana: | I'm not sure about Imperio, though, as I got the impression that | spell seems | to cause the victim to behave in a dream-like state. On the other hand, I | think I'm basing my impression on the description of what it | feels like for | the victim, so it must be possible to make the victim look normal, or the | Death Eaters who used it as a defence couldn't have evaded Azkaban! [Lee]: Well, at the beginning of the Tri-Wizard selection, Barty Senior looked okay, and he was imperioed; As things progressed, he started to look a bit ill, then, worse and worse. This could be because he was trying to fight the thing, too. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From technomad at intergate.com Wed Jun 23 18:32:11 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:32:11 -0500 Subject: Are house-elves _slaves,_ as such? Message-ID: <003901c45950$6a1c1ea0$4f570043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102588 I was thinking about house-elves (WAAAY too much time on my hands---not enough to read! Write, JKR, write!) and it occurred to me that house-elves' servitude is not really slavery _eo nomine._ Apparently they are bound to a particular place, or house, instead of being _owned_ by a master. While a master can free them by presenting them with clothes, they don't seem to be able to be bought and sold, as they would be were they true slaves. I would say that their condition more resembles serfdom, as practiced until the 1860s in Russia. Russian serfs could not, at least in theory, be forced to leave their land---to force them out required that they be first freed. While there are certainly resemblances between slavery and serfdom, a serf's condition is better in many ways. A serf cannot be bought or sold (again, at least in theory, although I am not sure how well this was adhered to in pre-1860s Russia) and has more rights vis-a-vis the master than a slave. If house-elves _were_ slaves, pure and simple, what would prevent Winky from being sold to someone really nasty, or Kreacher from being sold to Molly Weasley or someone else trustworthy? "A house-elf? Oh, Sirius, I've always wanted one! But---but I can't afford him!" "Make me an offer, Molly. He's all yours for ten Sickles!" "Done and a bargain!" *Molly gives Kreacher an ominous smile* "Guess what, Kreacher---_I_ am now your new mistress! No more lollygagging---it'll be work, work, work from morning to evening!" *drops the subject, wondering where house-elves come from---do they have "reproduction dates" with other house-elves, or do households with enough to breed find ways to "place" the offspring?* From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jun 23 18:38:27 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:38:27 -0000 Subject: Snape uniting the houses? Lucius a good guy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102589 I'm sure this subject must have come up here at some point but couldn't find a link. But on mugglenet, the topic has come up about the historical and mythological background characters' namesakes - like Severus, Sirius, Lucius, etc. - and the question is, can those historical facts/myths be used to predict where JKR is going with her characters? I know we can't assume JKR will use namesakes as direct blueprints, but she definitely seems to have created some strong parallels thus far. There are some strong ties between Sirius the character and Orion's faithful hunting dog, Sirius, who was so loyal to his master, that he searched the earth relentlessly for him after his death, and was ultimately placed in the heavens to be with his master. The Dog Star is considered a symbol of power and steadfastness of purpose. All these traits - loyalty, steadfastness of purpose, power - are present in JKR's Sirius, whose animagus happens to be a dog. And their loyalty led both to being killed, in a sense - the mythological Sirius being transformed from body into a constellation and Sirius slipping through the veil. Will we see Sirius in a different form somewhere in the books? Then there's Septimius Severus. He united the Roman Empire after the death of Commodus and execution of Pertinax while it was embroiled in civil war. He was from the Phoenician coast, whose occupants were, at one time, reviled by other Romans, and yet he none the less managed to become its ruler. His rule was notable b/c of its emphasis on jurisprudence and the military - he improved both overall military strength for the army and internal morale through a series of pay increases and fringe benefits. He empahsized efficiency and logic but was known to have a wide streak of cruelty, as well. His general profile is very, very similar to that of our potions master. Is this perhaps some foreshadowing for Snape? Will Albus die and Snape take over Hogwarts in the subsequent disarray? Could he be the one who unites the 4 houses at Hogwarts the way Septimius Severus united Rome after a period of civil wars (never losing his trademark cruelty of course)? Also interesting is the story of Lucius from Metamorphoses: he was transformed into a "golden ass" by dabbling in magic. He is ultimately restored to humanity after having a religious epiphany. I always assumed Lucius was evil and would stay that way, but is there a chance he could be reformed? From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 18:42:32 2004 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:42:32 -0000 Subject: Filk, with a listener advisory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > Take his Underwear Down, Prongs. To the tune of Tie Me Kangaroo > Down, Sport by Rolf Harris. > > To Haggridd-you had to put the song in my head, didn't you, Sport? > > > The chorus is sung by Sirius, Peter, and enough assorted non- > canonical students who are milling around in the scene to get a good > harmony. Remus does not join in, and often stops himself from toe- > tapping along. > snip most of filk < > (a tempo) > PRESENT DAY SNAPE: > Did you find a scene you enjoy, Boy? > Did you find a scene you enjoy? > > (chorus) > > > Ginger, who feels a bit guilty using a song with such strong > Australian lyrics for this subject. Sorry, Shaun. If it will bring out such a delightful filk, I'll smother my dijeridoo with vegemite and toss another wallaby on the barbie anyday, mate. No worries! I especially loved your closing couplet. Haggridd, who would love to see what Ginger can do with "A Man Down Under" From lawtrainer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 18:51:42 2004 From: lawtrainer at yahoo.com (Jana Fisher) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:51:42 -0000 Subject: Elf Beheading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > - Dumbledore's watched Winky FOR A YEAR NOW sit in the kitchens and be a > falling down drunk, with no promise to do more. No, he doesn't mind. Me: Upon watching (reading) what Dumbledore does throughout the books, I just keep thinking everything happens for a reason. I don't believe we have seen Winky's ultimate purpose, but Dumbledore is allowing Winky to be there for a reason. And in the grand scheme of things, which is more important? Worrying about Winky the drunk house-elf or saving the wizarding world from an evil overlord? What disturbs me the most is that he's > SUCH an optimist that he LET Kreacher continue living in Grimmauld Place, > NOT concerned that he was a danger in any way to any of the inhabitants > there, and NOT concerned that Kreacher's displayed secretive, vengeful and > underlying violent behavior would ever come to play against any of them. Me: Again, Kreacher ultimately served a purpose. A purpose in which I don't believe we have seen the full effects of yet, i.e. sending Sirius off to his death and how Harry will react to it. Dumbledore is very wise and has many tools at his disposal. If characters are in the book, and Dumbledore is aware of them or has a hand in bringing them into the scenario, then they have a reason for being there. The only other thing I have to add to this, is Dumbledore is playing this chess game the best way he knows how. One of the best examples of this is the employment of the greatest number of house elves in the wizarding world. Their magical capabilities have been demonstrated. Are they the real "Dumbledore's Army"? J From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 18:52:07 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:52:07 -0000 Subject: Has anyone ever out-guessed JKR? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102592 I was thinking about Kneasy's brilliant suggestion that someone (almost certainly Ron) is going to be imperio-ed in Book 6 or 7 and wondering idly what would be JKR's reaction if she read it and he was right(ranging from "I don't suppose anyone will notice" to "Bugger, now I'll have to re-write whole chunks") From there, I began to wonder if anyone on any of the HP groups has ever come up with a prediction that turned out to be right - REALLY right. Surely among the host of theories, sane and insane, someone must have come up with something that proved to be spot on. I would be fascinated to know if anyone can make such a claim. Sylvia From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 19:10:39 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:10:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102594 | From: Phil Boswell | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:38 AM | I went to a Public School, of the type upon which Hogwarts is | modelled, and I can assure you that I would have had no clue that most | of my fellow pupils even *had* parents were it not for the tall people | dropping them off and picking them up at the beginning/end of term. | | Visiting parents during term-time was strictly optional, as was | telephooning or writing to them. I was not the best correspondent ;-) | | The only reason Ron's parents get so much coverage before OOP is that | we actually visit his home; Harry's parents are obviously better | candidates but we don't actually hear that much about them in | conversation with Ron/Herm. | | Which other pupils do we hear from about their parents? Working from | memory: Seamus mentions his because he's a half-blood; Neville's crop | up totally separately; ... | | Can't recall any others. [Lee]: Well, Cedric's parents show up in GOF, but they were also involved with the plot. Also, in Gof, you see Seamus Finnigan's mum, Wood's parents are mentioned, too. I tend to think there is more mentioning of Wizarding parents than muggle, too, except in cases where plot is really important. Cheers, Lee :-) From draco382 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 19:34:13 2004 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:34:13 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <00a101c4592f$90b32110$152ca8c0@TUTEN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ute John" wrote: > So it seems to me since Ron has more problems fighting the curse than others, and Moody made the remark about Ron's father - that Ron probably will be put under this spell in the next book. > > Ute Yeah, i think of all the people who could be potential candidates for an Imperio, Ron is numero uno. As far as who could do it, I would imagine that Draco is my most likely suspect. I found his threat to Harry positively chilling towards the end of OOP -- not that he hasn't threatened Harry before -- but I'm beginning to feel that Draco is turning into Harry's counterpart in the revenge department. Putting Ron under Imperio (however illegal) might be perfectly enjoyable for Draco. And, he just might have the wizarding abilities to do it -- as Bellatrix said to Harry -- you have to MEAN it, and his threat certainly made it sound like he meant it. ~draco382 From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 19:41:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:41:36 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102596 Shaun Hately wrote: Snape is a hard taskmaster. When his students do not perform to the standard he expects, he lets them know about it. There is nothing invalid about that as a method of teaching. Not all teachers do it, but plenty do, and their students often learn very effectively in the classroom. They work harder to avoid being told off. vmonte responds: I like Snape's character not because he is a great teacher (because he is not) or because he is a good person (yeah right!). I think he is a nasty, but quick witted character. I love his sarcasm! I like him because he says things I sometimes think, but don't have enough guts to say. I also like him because he is a fictional character and I can vicariously live through him without ever having to actually know him. I would not do well in his classroom, and I don't like that he is a racist! It would be ok with it, if I believed that he had grown up to understand that he was wrong to call Lily that "name" as teenager, but I do not believe he does. It is not in Snape's nature to forgive. This is a serious character flaw. He must have been a DE for some reason? And he is too smart to not understand what Voldemort was all about. He also still refers to him with respect: "Dark Lord" (it gives me chills). And I believe that the way he treats Hermione has something to do with her heritage. Or does he hate her because she is a know-it-all? No offense, good teachers love this kind of student because they encourage the rest of the students to also excell. I've also noticed that from day one the kids have been able to apply the lessons they've learned from their other teachers. Nothing yet with Snape. Are we sure he is at the school to teach the kids potions? Or are they learning something else from him? And is DD also keeping an eye on him like he is with Trelawny? vivian From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 23 18:42:09 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:42:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are house-elves _slaves,_ as such? In-Reply-To: <003901c45950$6a1c1ea0$4f570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: <00a301c45951$d24496f0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 102597 I was thinking about house-elves (WAAAY too much time on my hands---not enough to read! Write, JKR, write!) and it occurred to me that house-elves' servitude is not really slavery _eo nomine._ Apparently they are bound to a particular place, or house, instead of being _owned_ by a master. While a master can free them by presenting them with clothes, they don't seem to be able to be bought and sold, as they would be were they true slaves. I would say that their condition more resembles serfdom, as practiced until the 1860s in Russia. Russian serfs could not, at least in theory, be forced to leave their land---to force them out required that they be first freed. Sherry now: The point still goes back to the fact that the elf cannot be free, unless the master gives them clothes. The choice is not the elf's, it is the wizard's. To me, that seems like a form of slavery. Your message gave me something to think about, though. Sherry G From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jun 23 19:53:31 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:53:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 20 discussion In-Reply-To: <006301c45936$ad172de0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102598 [Christina wrote]: | Tom/LV turned to dark magic in order to control what he couldn't control. | His mother may have been a pureblood wizard who either raised him to think | badly of his father or, if she wasn't around before he attended Hogwarts, | chose the WW over the muggle world and believed the pureblood | families that | said wizards were "above" the muggles. [Lee]: Tom's mother wasn't around for him. It says in COS in Chap 13: --Begin Quote-- (Tom speaking to Head Master) "My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the orphanage she lived just long enough to name me--Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather." --End Quote-- So, unless he was able to get more information about her life and lineage, which I guess he did, otherwise he wouldn't know what her thoughts were on pure-blood vs non-pure-blood. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 19:54:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:54:12 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Mandy: > If the victims of the Imperio existed in a dream like state they > would be very easy to spot and whisked off to St Mungos before they > could do any harm. > I think the victim behaves in anyway the aggressor wants them to > behave. Instructs them to perform physical tasks and controls their > emotional state as well. What power! I can tell you I'm seduced by > it. Would I be tempted to use it if I had the skill? Oh, yeah. > Geoff: This is certainly supported by canon. '"...He (Voldemort) arrived at our house near midnight. my father answered the door." The smile spread wider over Crouch's face as though recalling the sweetest memory of his life.Winky's petrified brown eyes were visible through her fingers. She seemed to appalled to speak. "It was very quick. My father was placed under the Imperius curse by my master. Now my father was the one imprisoned, controlled. My master forced him to go about his business as usual, to act as though nothing was wrong. And I was released. I awoke. I was myself again, alive as I hadn't been in years."' (GOF "Veritaserum" p.597 UK edition) This, as Crouch's description shows later, was before Moody was overcome and Crouch Jr. started using the Polyjuice Potion. So Crouch Snr. was under the Inmperius Curse well before the World Cup and no one noticed any difference. From Snarryfan at aol.com Wed Jun 23 10:00:22 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:00:22 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, true Seer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102600 Christelle: > > She thinks that if she saw a rainbow, everyone would think that > > she's not up to it so she changes it for something horrible. But > > what she see is true. It's her interpretation who's problematic. > > In POA, she said that she saw that the exam will be about the > > crystal Ball. Hermione said next "what a surprise, it's her who > > make the exams, she didn't see anything". Then Alla: > oh, I like that. So, you are saying that Trelawney could have made > more true predictions than two if only she interpreted them > correctly? > > What do you mean by the way by "problematic interpretation"? That > she sees one thng but tells to other people that she saw something > totally different or that she just gives different meaning to her > true vision? I'll search every prediction she's done this summer, but with what I remember: She saw a big black dog, for her it's the grim, when in reality, it's Sirius. Like the Centaurs, she know that Mars means something (GOF,pg 499: "Today, however, will be an excellent opportunity to examine the effects of Mars, for he is placed most interestingly at the present time"). Add that with "Mars is bright tonight" and "the innocent are always the first to victims", you are the unicorns for the first time and Cedric for the second. The next time that someone make a remark about Mars, I'll be ready. I think she said something about the death who fly near the castle somewhere. And there is what she said to Umbridge "something dark...great danger" we can't say that the Forbidden Forets helped her:). What she said to Lavender(?), about what she feared that would happen in October. She received something horrible this day. (Safe if we said that Trelawney killed the bunny to make her prediction true.) Divination is really difficutlt, because of the multiple interpretations. If she could say what she see without what she thinks that it means... she always chose the most 'horrible' possible meaning. Christelle. (just like that, when I looked for quotes, I found this "Carry on like this and you'll be made a Prefect.", by George, to Ron. If he only knew :) From gonecrzyNSC at aol.com Wed Jun 23 14:16:02 2004 From: gonecrzyNSC at aol.com (gonecrzyNSC at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:16:02 EDT Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) Message-ID: <55.5a988a1e.2e0aeaa2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102601 gbannister10 at aol.com writes: Mark Evans Forgive me for butting in, but my mom has borrowed OoTP, so I can't look at it right now. I am trying to remember what the mention of Mark Evans is. I've read a lot of fan fiction lately and am getting some of it mixed up LOL Was it with the Sorting Hat or is he a neighbor on Privet Drive? Christie From gonecrzyNSC at aol.com Wed Jun 23 14:42:34 2004 From: gonecrzyNSC at aol.com (gonecrzyNSC at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:42:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum Message-ID: <127.44081996.2e0af0da@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102602 In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: Look here: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi? anagram=B+D+E+G+I+L+M+N+O+R+S+T+U+W I'm not really good with geography, but take the T O W N (town) out and see if those of you who are familiar with the area recognize the name of any towns. http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=BDEGILMRSU Christie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lisa at lau13.de Wed Jun 23 14:26:12 2004 From: lisa at lau13.de (Ute John) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:26:12 +0200 Subject: Ginny as Prefect? (Re: Not All Weasleys are Weasleys) References: Message-ID: <009001c4592e$b049c9d0$152ca8c0@TUTEN> No: HPFGUIDX 102603 > Paulaboo: > What bothers me about this statement and the first thing I thought of > when I read it was: What about Ginny? She's not made prefect yet. Ginny was only in 4th grade and they only choose prefects starting grade 5. Ute From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 16:11:15 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:11:15 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flame... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > Ohhhhh what if its the brain of an evil wizard such as Grindelwald. That's a very intriguing (allbeit disturbing) guess. Flamel wasn't the only wizard out there searching for the key to immortality. Voldemort had also gone through extensive precautions to prolong his life. What if he wasn't the only Dark Wizard/Witch to figure out a way in *preserving* him/herself? At least his/her mind? Like those folks who pay thousands to have their heads cryogenically frozen (although methinks these purported Dark Wizards hadn't been intending on being trapped in the DoM for all eternity). This could be why those brains are so wild, per se, they've been trapped / emprisoned in the DoM god knows how long. Mixing up with anything in the DoM is probably bad news, but what could have a (theoretically) long emprisoned mind done to Ron? > I seem to recall a bit in the book mentioning something along the lines of > thoughts causing the deepest scars. I put this in another reply to the topic, but for your convenience... OOTP Schol. CH. 38, PG. 847 "There were still deep welts on [Ron's] forearms where the brain's tentacles had wrapped around him. According to Madam Pomfrey, thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, though since she had started applying copious amounts of Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction, there seemed to be some improvement." On one side, I had been wondering if this could awaken some dormant ability in Ron. On the other, with JKR's use of the word "scarring", I have a funny feeling whatever consequences of this attack, they are not going to be pretty at all. > did JKR mean only physically or could > she mean mental scars as well? Wouldn't be surprised if it was both. Since it's "thoughts" that leave "deeper scarring than almost anything else", I have a feeling it's leaning more towards mental scars, not physical. It's just that the brain used a physical attack to induce whatever possible mental / psychological injury. If I were really going to jump into paranoia land... if Voldemort or the DEs found out about this "injury", could/would it be exploited in some way? annunathradien From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 16:30:33 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040623163033.88143.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102605 Lady Macbeth commented > Winky was being mistreated in Crouch's care, but she > was happy there. I never got the impressio that Winky was mistreated, other than the incident at the Quidditch World Cup, and the only reason she was there was because of Jr. Had Jr not been there, Crouch Sr probably would not have had to bring Winky. But I never got the indication that Winky was mistreated by Crouch (either one) like Dobby was by the whole Malfoy family. We never see Winky hurting herself at Hogwarts (under the Truth Serum, especially). ta! bamf! ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nocturnus2003 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 17:36:59 2004 From: nocturnus2003 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Nocturnus?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:36:59 -0300 (ART) Subject: Hermione Type A? In-Reply-To: <1088011907.21997.25078.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040623173659.83207.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102606 Hi: I'm delurking here. I was wondering if it was possible for Hermione to develop a Type A depression, or any disease of the sort? She is an overachiver after all. I'm working on a fic project and want to have some thoughts about this point. Thanks, Nocturnus From momy424 at aol.com Wed Jun 23 19:15:41 2004 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:15:41 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102607 Lee wrote: > We know that the Hogwarts Express leaves from King's Cross and just > runs non-stop until it gets to Hogsmeade. > > But my real question is, if some of the students live closer, say > they live in Scotland or northern parts, does this mean they have > to backtrack all the way back to London just to take the express to > Hogsmeade? Shannon: The thought that all students would have to go to Diagon Alley to get their school supplies anyway, since even in Hogsmeade I do not remember them saying anything about stores that carry the supplies the kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that they travel from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's not like in the WW they have to travel as muggles do, they can apparate and travel by floo and other ways to get to the area. Just my opinion From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 19:31:11 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:31:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron, Harry & Cho, the Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102608 Del wrote: > So what do we have? Two girls, being asked to the Ball, blushing, > and saying they are already going with someone else. Neither of > them says that she's not interested. I'm reluctant to get involved in a shipper discussion from any side, but I was wondering if this is supposed to be seen as good or bad for R/Hr shippers, especially in comparison to Harry/Cho. annunathradien From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Jun 23 21:18:09 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:18:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flame... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56739267.20040623141809@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102609 Hi, Wednesday, June 23, 2004, 9:11:15 AM, annunathradien wrote: > On one side, I had been wondering if this could awaken some dormant > ability in Ron. On the other, with JKR's use of the word "scarring", > I have a funny feeling whatever consequences of this attack, they are > not going to be pretty at all. I keep thinking that JKR had Ron hit with this strange curse, which made him act kind of silly, for the sole purpose of having him summon the brain. Someone in their right mind wouldn't have done that. I'd be disappointed if there weren't some consequences in the next book, though I am not at all sure I will like what she has planned for Ron. He's been battered by what seems like a large part of fandom so much, that I worry about the reactions. Ron is one of my favorite characters, and I hope he comes out alright at the end, along with Harry and Hermione and Neville and... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 18:18:52 2004 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:18:52 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102610 Moonmyyst: > Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up > with that start with the following letters: > > B D E G I L M N O R S T U W > > I have many of the more obvious. I am working on trying to come up > with a warning that this could stand for. Maybe instructions of some > kind. Who around here thinks like Hermione does? I think that she > is the one who is going to figure it out if it really does mean > something. I can't help feeling that Neville's sole talent, herbology, is going to come in here somewhere. It's obviously being kept up in the story for some reason. So it might be a clue or anagram of a plant or process of which we know nothing as yet. "hettiebe" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 21:35:38 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:35:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102611 Gina wrote : > Well what we are debating is not who LIKED whom but who will END UP > with whom! Del replies : Hmm, those two kind of go together, don't you think :-) ? Gina wrote : > And I think OOTP is pretty obvious!!!! Del replies : Gina, Gina, Gina... Tt-tt ! Haven't you learned yet that *nothing* in the WW is obvious ;-) ? *Especially* where SHIPs are concerned ! You see, I too think that OoP makes things pretty obvious : pretty obvious that Harry and Hermione are not going to end up together. Gina wrote : > Think about it - Hermione is always with Harry! Del replies : ... Except when she's with Ron, as Prefects for example. That's a pretty big clue for R/H, don't you think ? And yes Hermione spends much of her time with Harry, but isn't it what best friends do when their friends are in trouble ? Ron is always with Harry too. Gina wrote : > 1) Hermione tries to find out if Harry likes her by making the > "tell her how ugly you think I am" remark Del replies : The fact is canon, the interpretation is not, it's only yours. Not mine. Gina wrote : > 2) Hermione leaves Ron's quiddich match without a thought to follow > Harry into the woods with Hagrid Del replies : You've got things mixed-up here : Hermione follows *Hagrid* into the woods with Harry, not the other way around. And it's Harry who took the decision for them both anyway : Hermione didn't have a choice. I won't go seeing anything romantic where there's no romance. And I believe she and Ron would have followed Hagrid just as well if it had been Harry who was playing. Hagrid needed to take them in the woods at a time when they wouldn't be noticed as missing, and the Quidditch match was the perfect occasion. Gina wrote : > 3) Hermione offers to go into Umbridge's office with Harry and > Harry, "recognizes her loyalty" Del replies : Yes, Hermione is a very good friend, we know that. Gina wrote : > 4) Harry always protects Hermione (centaurs, Grawp, etc) Del replies : Harry was always some kind of knight. In CoS, he risked his life to save Ginny. In GoF, he risked his life to take Gabrielle back to the surface of the lake. Gina wrote : > 5) This time when Hermione gets scared she grabs Harry's > hand/arm. Del replies : I seem to remember that in PoA, when she and Harry get on Buckbeak, Hermione holds tightly onto him. That's what she does when she's scared. And since there's never anyone available but Harry... Gina wrote : > 6) When the DEs come Harry grabs Hermione - not Luna not Ginny > HERMIONE and lets everyone else fend for themselves Del replies : You've quite re-written that part, I'm afraid. Harry "seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forwards" just after having shouted "RUN !" Why Hermione ? Quite simple : she was the one closest to him. When Harry looked with his foot for someone to warn of his plan, his foot encountered Hermione's, who came even closer to listen to him. Thus, Harry knew perfectly where she was, and could grab her to get her and the others to move when he told them to. Then Harry looked up, and saw that Ron, Ginny and Luna were *ahead* of him : they were supposedly safer than he was, which is why he didn't check on them until later. And Neville ? Well he was behind him, and Harry "could hear footsteps right behind him and Hermione's voice urging Neville on". Seems like Hermione's attention was not that focused on her beloved Harry, was it ? Then later, when they realised the others had not gotten where they should, they started worrying and went looking for them while dealing with the DEs at the same time. Harry felt responsible for all of them, and he did his best to get them all out of there safe. Gina wrote : > 7) NEVILLE is constantly taking up for Ginny (Inquisitorial Squad > and in the DoM) > 8) Ron is in the DoM with Ginny and LUNA!!!! > > Gina - who thinks what is obvious is that things are about to > change! JKR put THOSE characters in the DoM for a reason - even > Harry commented it should have been any other three. Del replies : Just because it makes up 3 girls and 3 boys doesn't necessarily mean they will form couples. And even if they do, why not put Harry with Luna or Ginny ? Both Hermione and Ginny take good care of Neville, and Luna could relate to Harry in very special ways. As for Ron, he's smitten with Hermione for now and wouldn't care for any other girl. I'm not saying that H/Hr is impossible, I'm just saying that the evidence is not that obvious. It's obvious only if you *want* to read it that way. And anyway, the strongest reason I don't want to see Harry with Hermione is because Harry is not nice enough to Hermione. 1. In OoP, he shouts at her at least 3 times even though she's in the right (once for not having written in more details to him over the holidays, once because he thinks her DA idea is ludicrous, and once because she refuses to admit right away that he's truly seen Sirius being tortured). And she's too scared to fight back, which is not a sign of a good healthy relationship. 2. Even when he doesn't shout, he's way too often scaring Hermione into agreeing with him, even when he's wrong, like when he forces her to say that Hagrid is a good teacher. I mean, what kind of friend glowers at you to force you to say what they want !? How much respect does Harry have for Hermione if he won't let her contradict him ?? And how much does she *trust* him, if she can't get herself to speak her mind ? She's clearly afraid of how he might react at those times, and I don't think that fear can be a component of a loving relationship. That wouldn't bode well for any romantic relationship they might develop : Hermione having to agree to whatever Harry feels is important... It's bordering on emotional abuse IMO. 3. More generally, he doesn't listen much to her counsel, he doesn't care much about what interests her, and so on. I love Hermione, and I just don't see what *she* would get out of a relationship with Harry... other than troubles, that is ! Not that a relationship with Ron would be heaven, mind you. The way they are always fighting... But at least, Hermione always feels *free* to be *herself* with Ron, she nevers cowers into agreeing with him. Their relationship might be much bumpier than her relationship with Harry, but in my opinion it's MUCH healthier : neither controls the other. Del, who thinks one of the reasons Ginny, Neville and Luna had to go to the DoM could be the Veil : all three of them, along with Harry, were entranced by it. From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 21:42:31 2004 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:42:31 -0000 Subject: Snape uniting the houses? Lucius a good guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > "Is this perhaps some foreshadowing for Snape? Will Albus die and > Snape take over Hogwarts in the subsequent disarray? Could [Snape] be the > one who unites the 4 houses at Hogwarts the way Septimius Severus > united Rome after a period of civil wars...?" ~~I was interested by your theory - however, I'm not sure that Snape has much of a hold on 'the 4 houses' as you say. I imagine a civil war between two main groups, and - as of now - the only two groups who seem to be in disarray would be the houses of Gryffindor and Slytherin. Hufflepuff and ravenclaw seem to have been, and continue to be in this case, irrelevant. There is no doubt that Snape has a definite influence over the students of Slytherin, through what I would see as "a series of pay increases and fringe benefits." Through his somewhat valiant efforts to do his duty in remaining loyal to Dumbledore, we see a unity within himself. The question is; Will that be enough to unite the houses? For the time being, Snape has been favored by the Slytherins (as he favors them) and seen as pretty much the opposite by Gryffindors. Will he gain favor on one side or lose favor on the other? Perhaps a compromise may ensue - who knows? But I just can't see a perfect 'unity' - as in every Gryffindor accepting that he's a good guy, and every Slytherin accepting that Voldemort's motives - and in turn, Salazar's motives - were a little off kilter. As for Lucius - the sixth book out of seven is a little late for a turnaround, let alone anything of the sort happening in the seventh. There are too many connections to historical figures with the name 'Lucius' to consider everyone to be parallel to the future fate of Lucius Malfoy. However, alternate references such as Lucius Verus who married his co-emperor's daughter to strengthen family ties, and Lucius Cornelius Sulla who was considered to have bought his way into political power do seem more fitting to the character. From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 23 21:57:07 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:57:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102614 Del wrote : And anyway, the strongest reason I don't want to see Harry with Hermione is because Harry is not nice enough to Hermione. 1. In OoP, he shouts at her at least 3 times even though she's in the right (once for not having written in more details to him over the holidays, once because he thinks her DA idea is ludicrous, and once because she refuses to admit right away that he's truly seen Sirius being tortured). And she's too scared to fight back, which is not a sign of a good healthy relationship. 2. Even when he doesn't shout, he's way too often scaring Hermione into agreeing with him, even when he's wrong, like when he forces her to say that Hagrid is a good teacher. I mean, what kind of friend glowers at you to force you to say what they want !? How much respect does Harry have for Hermione if he won't let her contradict him ?? And how much does she *trust* him, if she can't get herself to speak her mind ? She's clearly afraid of how he might react at those times, and I don't think that fear can be a component of a loving relationship. That wouldn't bode well for any romantic relationship they might develop : Hermione having to agree to whatever Harry feels is important... It's bordering on emotional abuse IMO. 3. More generally, he doesn't listen much to her counsel, he doesn't care much about what interests her, and so on. I love Hermione, and I just don't see what *she* would get out of a relationship with Harry... other than troubles, that is !<<< Now Barbara: I don't read it that way at all. Harry was angry at the whole world in OOTP and rightfully so IMO. I don't think Hermione was ever really afraid of him. I think she backed down because she knew Harry was an emotional wreck, full of anger and volatile emotions and she didn't want to make it worse. As far as your item #3, I don't think either Ron or Harry have really shown much interest in what interests her (her schoolwork, S.P.E.W., etc.). I'm not really rooting for her to end up with anybody in particular, if JKR does in fact pair them up, but I just wanted to weigh in that I don't think Harry's anger in OOTP was directed at her particularly and I certainly don't think she's afraid of him. Barbara bd-bear From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 22:01:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:01:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102615 Del wrote: 2. Even when he doesn't shout, he's way too often scaring Hermione into agreeing with him, even when he's wrong, like when he forces her to say that Hagrid is a good teacher. I mean, what kind of friend glowers at you to force you to say what they want !? How much respect does Harry have for Hermione if he won't let her contradict him ?? And how much does she *trust* him, if she can't get herself to speak her mind ? She's clearly afraid of how he might react at those times, and I don't think that fear can be a component of a loving relationship. That wouldn't bode well for any romantic relationship they might develop : Hermione having to agree to whatever Harry feels is important... It's bordering on emotional abuse IMO. 3. More generally, he doesn't listen much to her counsel, he doesn't care much about what interests her, and so on. I love Hermione, and I just don't see what *she* would get out of a relationship with Harry... other than troubles, that is ! vmonte responds: I agree that Hermione and Harry as an item are not suggested by the books. Ron and Hermione are. By the way, I love the way Ginny stood up to Harry at the DoM. Now that's a girl for Harry. page 776, OOTP, US: "Keep going!" said Harry sharply, because Ginny showed signs of wanting to stop and watch the egg's progress back into a bird. "You dawdled enough by that old arch!" she said crossly..." vivian From probono at rapidnet.com Wed Jun 23 22:03:22 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:03:22 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > Snape is a hard taskmaster. When his students do not perform to the > standard he expects, he lets them know about it. There is nothing > invalid about that as a method of teaching. Not all teachers do it, > but plenty do, and their students often learn very effectively in > the classroom. They work harder to avoid being told off. I haven't been following this thread exactly either, but I'd like to add a comment. The description aboves sounds more like McGonagall then Snape. I respect McGonagall very much, and as a teacher she seems worthy of respect, unlike Snape. I can see McG really laying into a student when they make a mistake, especially if it was a careless mistake or one that could cause harm in the real world. And after a good tongue-thrashing I can see the student making every effort to NEVER, EVER make a mistake in her classes again. Now, on to Snape. I just finished reading the passage in OOTP after Harry sees into Snape's memories. (Sorry, I don't have the book with me for page numbers). Snape ignores Harry during class. Harry finds that without all of Snape's harping, potions comes quite easily to him (something we should remember, methinks). Harry proudly turns in his potions, but the second his back is turned, his beaker mysteriously falls off Snape's desk onto the floor, utterly destroyed. Another zero for Harry, says Snape. No, I personally don't see this as encouraging to any student. Any student, period. Faced with the same situation, I probably would have finally given up at that point, and quit trying. I certainly could not see me trying harder, what's the point? Okay, now for 2 other things. First, I really love Snape as a character. I absolutely adore his utter vileness! I am a HUGE fan. Secondly, I also noticed when McGonagall is discussing with Harry the career choice of Auror, she points out that you need to know how to deal with working under extreme conditions. Now, we have seen Harry "score" spectacular marks in this area in many, many real life instances. However, I would consider Snape's class another type of stress, one that Harry has not been able to yet overcome. We know now that Harry is quite good at potions when left alone, but he will need to get the highest marks possible in order to consider the career of Auror, and with Snape around I don't see it. (Or maybe he'll get lucky, and for some reason there will be a new potions teacher next year? From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 22:09:18 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:09:18 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: <55.5a988a1e.2e0aeaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gonecrzyNSC at a... wrote: > gbannister10 at a... writes: > Mark Evans > > > Forgive me for butting in, but my mom has borrowed OoTP, so I can't look at > it right now. I am trying to remember what the mention of Mark Evans is. I've > read a lot of fan fiction lately and am getting some of it mixed up LOL Was > it with the Sorting Hat or is he a neighbor on Privet Drive? > > Christie He's a neighbor Dudley-dear beat up, but I don't have my book to cite chapter. He is not at Hogwarts, but many people believe he may end up there in the next book. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 22:20:17 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:20:17 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102618 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" said: >A wizard who is an ethical person would use Legilimency in an ethical >way. A wizard who is not an ethical person (as in my previous post, I >believe that wizards raise their children to believe that ethics are >optional) will use Legilimency however he/she wants. We're heard of >Ministry regulation of Animagic and Apparation, but not of Legilimency I disagree. I think that as in the real world, ethical wizards generally raise their children to be ethical, unethical wizards generally raise their children to be just like them, and every once in awhile a child rebels one way or the other (Mrs. Black ended up with Sirius; the Weasleys, it appears, ended up with Percy.) It isn't always obvious. Crouch Sr. would probably be horrified at the suggestion that Crouch Jr. was like him, but they both seem to hold the idea that The End Justifies The Means -- it just came out a little different in Junior than in Senior. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ >From will you? to I do, MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting Married. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 23 22:22:19 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:22:19 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102619 >Boyd wrote: > But if we've learned anything from JKR, it's that the obvious rarely happens. If we all think Ron is so obvious for this, then wouldn't that make him a less liekly target? Plus, JKR likes letting the trio make their own choices. Ron would assumedly have no choice with an imperio. (After all, it was not Hermione who read the diary in COS.) > Kneasy wrote: > If you think Ron's too obvious, how about Hermione? > Whoo! Now that would be fun! Unexpected, too. Mandy here: It depends on where the expectation lies. There are so many twists one could take with this sub plot. Sure it's obvious, perhaps too obvious as you say, that Ron is a target for the imperio, but what if JKR has Ron, or Hermione, acting under the imperio through-out book 6, but she doesn't let us know until half way through book 7? Fuelling untold amounts of website speculation during the intervening years. Resulting in many loud 'Oh my God, not Ron!' Or if JKR has Ron behaving in such an obnoxious way that we all scream 'Imperio', but in fact it turns out he just got fed up with playing 2nd fiddle to Harry all the time. Not likely, I know, but there a few different twists that Jo can put on the tale to keep us in the dark. She's managed to fool us on many other occasions. Cheers Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 23 22:32:41 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:32:41 -0000 Subject: Snape uniting the houses? Lucius a good guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102620 > Also interesting is the story of Lucius from Metamorphoses: he was > transformed into a "golden ass" by dabbling in magic. He is > ultimately restored to humanity after having a religious epiphany. I always assumed Lucius was evil and would stay that way, but is there a chance he could be reformed? Mandy here: There has been a lot of speculation on this site about the meaning of names and their significance. I was laughing at the last bit about Lucius. Now he's in Azkaban for dabbling around in the MoM, he's going to look like a right royal ass, and I'm sure many of his enemies in the WW already consider him a right golden assh**e. Reformation for Mr. Malfoy...never. I'd be very disappointed if he doesn't end up paying mightily for his sins. Mandy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 22:47:28 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102621 Barbara bd-bear wrote: > Harry was angry at the whole world in OOTP and rightfully so IMO. I > don't think Hermione was ever really afraid of him. I think she > backed down because she knew Harry was an emotional wreck, full of > anger and volatile emotions and she didn't want to make it worse. Del replies : In the scene where Harry tells Hermione about his vision of Sirius being tortured and she stalls, he does scare her. In the other instances I mentioned, it might be just my interpretation, but in that scene it's pretty clear. As for Harry being full of anger and volatile emotions, I don't really take that as an excuse. Just because I'm feeling snappish doesn't mean I have a right to go and snap at my friends. Just because he was annoyed that they were contradicting him or arguing too often for his taste didn't mean Harry had a right to yell or snap at his friends. I've seen that too often in RL, people going "she's making me mad" or "he made me do it", and I just don't buy it. Other people can annoy me, they can make me feel angry, but as long as they don't Imperio me, I can't say they made me do something. And as Hermione kept repeating to Harry all year long : she and Ron are on Harry's side, so it'd be nice if he didn't take his temper out on them. Friends are not there to serve as punching-balls. And they should never have to deny their own opinions just to make me feel better : their opinions are just as worthy as mine, and if I can't respect that, I don't consider myself as a good friend. Barbara bd-bear wrote: > I don't think either Ron or Harry have really shown much interest in > what interests her (her schoolwork, S.P.E.W., etc.). Del replies : In a weird way, Ron has. He's officially acknowledged Hermione's brains by stating that he couldn't write Snape's essay without her. And the fact that he keeps fighting with her on the question of elf rights shows that he does care about her concerns, even if it is in a "negative" way. Harry, on the other hand, doesn't really care about Hermione's brains (he's glad to get her help when she offers it but that's it), and he sure couldn't care less about Hermione's concern for the elves. Barbara bd-bear wrote: > I'm not really rooting for her to end up with anybody in particular, > if JKR does in fact pair them up, but I just wanted to weigh in that > I don't think Harry's anger in OOTP was directed at her particularly > and I certainly don't think she's afraid of him. Del replies : I'm not rooting for a particular pairing either, I'm rather fighting *against* a particular pairing, for the time being. As the kids grow up and mature, I might change my mind. I didn't mean that Harry's anger was directed specifically towards Herrmione, just that she and Ron were the ones that got most of it since they are closest to Harry. And I explained how the fact that Harry takes his anger out on them indicates to me that it wouldn't be a good idea for Hermione to go out with him. And there are several times in the book where it is obvious *to me* that Hermione is backing down because she's afraid of what Harry might do if she doesn't. But I understand that other people might not read those incidents the way I do. Del From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jun 23 23:02:08 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:02:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102622 Barbara bd-bear wrote: > Harry was angry at the whole world in OOTP and rightfully so IMO. I > don't think Hermione was ever really afraid of him. I think she > backed down because she knew Harry was an emotional wreck, full of > anger and volatile emotions and she didn't want to make it worse. >>>Del replied : In the scene where Harry tells Hermione about his vision of Sirius being tortured and she stalls, he does scare her. In the other instances I mentioned, it might be just my interpretation, but in that scene it's pretty clear. Barbara again: Can you quote that passage for me? I can't think of what you're referring to. >>>Del again: As for Harry being full of anger and volatile emotions, I don't really take that as an excuse. Just because I'm feeling snappish doesn't mean I have a right to go and snap at my friends. Just because he was annoyed that they were contradicting him or arguing too often for his taste didn't mean Harry had a right to yell or snap at his friends. I've seen that too often in RL, people going "she's making me mad" or "he made me do it", and I just don't buy it.<<< Barbara again: I'm not making any excuses for Harry, per se, but you also can't compare this situation to the real world. Yes, he's overwhelmingly angry and no, he shouldn't take it out on his friends, but come on, this is a 15 year-old kid who has had his life threatened repeatedly, who has no parents, no parental figures (save one very rash godfather he practically JUST met and a headmaster who has other duties other than to be his emotional support), just saw a schoolmate murdered by the most feared wizard around, plus he's in constant physical pain what with his scar and being fed visions of his friend's father being attacked. . . Give the kid a break! Barbara bd-bear wrote: > I don't think either Ron or Harry have really shown much interest in > what interests her (her schoolwork, S.P.E.W., etc.). >>>Del replied : In a weird way, Ron has. He's officially acknowledged Hermione's brains by stating that he couldn't write Snape's essay without her. And the fact that he keeps fighting with her on the question of elf rights shows that he does care about her concerns, even if it is in a "negative" way. Harry, on the other hand, doesn't really care about Hermione's brains (he's glad to get her help when she offers it but that's it), and he sure couldn't care less about Hermione's concern for the elves.<<< Barbara again: Of course Ron said that, he was desperate for help in keeping up with his homework. And if I were Hermione, I wouldn't want to start a relationship with someone who's only interest in me came up when I could complete their homework or who's always telling me I'm wrong about my crusade and to drop the whole thing (S.P.E.W.), which I think Ron has done (maybe not in OOTP, probably in GoF). I really don't think Ron cares anymore about Hermione's elf rights campaign than Harry. Maybe he's just hiding it better in OOTP because he's not as emotionally wrung out as Harry and constantly preoccupied with life and death issues. Barbara bd-bear From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 21:33:49 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:33:49 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102623 vmonte wrote: > And I believe that the way he treats Hermione has something to do > with her heritage. Or does he hate her because she is a know-it-all? > No offense, good teachers love this kind of student because they > encourage the rest of the students to also excell. Not necessarily. (That is, good teachers don't always love this kind of student, & this kind of student doesn't always encourage others to learn. If little Janie is always shouting out the correct answer, her classmate Joe Shlunk may feel too intimidated to contribute. Or he may wonder why he should bother, when Janie is always ready to share. Now, a truly thought-provoking answer to a question is usually appreciated, & THAT may stimulate others to add their 2 cents, but that's a different issue. probonoprobono wrote: > I just finished reading the passage in OOTP after Harry sees into > Snape's memories. Snape ignores Harry during class. Harry finds > that without all of Snape's harping, potions comes quite easily to > him (something we should remember, methinks). Harry proudly turns in > his potions, but the second his back is turned, his beaker > mysteriously falls off Snape's desk onto the floor, utterly > destroyed. Another zero for Harry, says Snape. Ava: Yes, and isn't that the priceless moment when Snape says "Whoops"? You can almost fill in JKR's invisible footnote: "yes, folks, it's ok to laugh at that. Poor Harry (snort)." > No, I personally don't see this as encouraging to any student. Any > student, period. Faced with the same situation, I probably would > have finally given up at that point, and quit trying. I certainly > could not see me trying harder, what's the point? Ava: And you've never had a teacher or boss like that? Lucky you! > Okay, now for 2 other things. First, I really love Snape as a > character. I absolutely adore his utter vileness! I am a HUGE fan. > > Secondly, I also noticed when McGonagall is discussing with Harry > the career choice of Auror, she points out that you need to know > how to deal with working under extreme conditions. Now, we have seen > Harry "score" spectacular marks in this area in many, many real life > instances. However, I would consider Snape's class another type of > stress, one that Harry has not been able to yet overcome. We know > now that Harry is quite good at potions when left alone, but he will > need to get the highest marks possible in order to consider the > career of Auror, and with Snape around I don't see it. (Or maybe > he'll get lucky, and for some reason there will be a new potions > teacher next year? Ava: And exactly HOW would this help him learn to deal with it? And furthermore, I thought you just said you really love Snape as a character. So now you want to get rid of him? Replace him with somebody nice? This would be an improvement? I think not. Ava From kelkatone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 22:05:36 2004 From: kelkatone at yahoo.com (Kelli) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:05:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102624 *delurking* to say Del, WELL written, and I agree with every single word you said. Very much R/H for me! As for this: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Not that a relationship with Ron would be heaven, mind you. The way > they are always fighting... One word. Foreplay. :) *relurks* From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 22:18:47 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:18:47 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102625 > Shaun wrote: > Snape is a hard taskmaster. When his students do not perform to the > standard he expects, he lets them know about it. There is nothing > invalid about that as a method of teaching. Not all teachers do it, > but plenty do, and their students often learn very effectively in > the classroom. They work harder to avoid being told off. > Thread Drift Sen: > When I was in school for Lab Tech, it was the same sort of thing. > You *had* to be able to do the tasks right. No half way. > Some subjects, the teachers do have to be harder because there is no > half way. Either totally correct or not at all. Potions AND in health > care. I also believe this is the reason Snape never gets the DADA > position. He's a stellar potionsmaster (at least its implied particularly > when we're told he is making Lupin's difficult potion. Not Pompfrey or > anyone else) and they probably could NOT find someone to fill the > potionmaster shoes as WELL as Snape. Yeah, I've had teachers like Snape myself...the taskmasters. Their form of teaching is a tricky thing though, it can cause students to do one of two things: flourish or die. When a teacher lays into them some students are driven to do better, prove to their teacher that they are good enough to remain in the class...or just to prove the teacher wrong - which I imagine is how Hermione and Harry respond. Of course, other students crumble under the pressure of a teacher verbal attacking them and only begin to make mistakes that are greater in number and seriousness- like Neville. As to why Snape never gets the DADA position is three-fold. One is because he is so good at potions-making it wouldbe near impossible to find a replacement. Two is that in his position he has been very important to other (and the fight against LV) as shown by making the werewolf potion and the Veriserum amongst other important creations that only he seems to know how to make. And three is that Dumbledore, as well as other characters, may think that as a former DE working around the Dark Arts may be a risk for Snape (though I honestly doubt that snape's at risk myself, but I could see how the books characters might). Tooks From TheLilliecat at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 22:48:05 2004 From: TheLilliecat at hotmail.com (Nikki) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:48:05 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102626 vmonte wrote: <> I've also noticed that from day one the kids have been able to apply the lessons they've learned from their other teachers. Nothing yet with Snape. Are we sure he is at the school to teach the kids potions? Or are they learning something else from him? And is DD also keeping an eye on him like he is with Trelawny? Nikki responds: -From the Yahooligans chat with JRK, 20 October 2000: "Lhhicks99 asks: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? Jkrowling_bn: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life. Horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!" Well, I couldn't have said it better myself, but that's just the point I've been wanting to make - professors teach more than just the subject matter in class, Snape included. So here's my question: How would Harry & the others have reacted to Umbridge if they hadn't had to deal with Snape in (and out of) class? And I didn't mean to pick on you, Vivian - I just needed a valid statement from the "Beat the Dead Snapey Horse to Death" thread to insert a JKR quote. Sorry for the pathetic post, but it's my first and I haven't really been following this... *bites lip* From gonecrzyNSC at aol.com Wed Jun 23 23:01:10 2004 From: gonecrzyNSC at aol.com (gonecrzyNSC at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:01:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperio! - but who and when? Message-ID: <36.5b709ce8.2e0b65b6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102627 Boyd writes: Don't count out the big bangyness of *Krum* (who transfers to Hogwarts, becomes captain of the Gryf quiddich team and kicks Ron off, romances Hermione to try to lure her and Harry to their dooms, sets up Good!Snape for the fall, and then turns out to be GoodButImperio'd!Krum). The only problem with this is: Isn't Krum 4 years older or so? So wouldn't he have already left school? However, he COULD come back and take Madame Hooch's place... I am thinking Dean or Seamus, someone along those lines though, if anyone is to be under the curse. Christie Wife to Jonathan -LEO, Mommy to my two earthly angels: Avrey -4 (31 weeker 4lbs 8oz, 17 day NICU stay), Chase- 3 (Full term! YAY Thank you March of Dimes for all your research!), two Heavenly angels: Jonathan Matthew and Hannah Lynn b/d 3-12-99 at 23 weeks, and to the most psychotic beagle in the history of the world, Nora. Avrey's Preemie Website From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 23 23:26:37 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:26:37 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > I've also noticed that from day one the kids have been able to apply > the lessons they've learned from their other teachers. Nothing yet > with Snape. Are we sure he is at the school to teach the kids > potions? Or are they learning something else from him? And is DD > also keeping an eye on him like he is with Trelawny? > They have used the skills he's taught them once, at least: making the Polyjuice Potion in Chamber of Secrets. It was Hermione who did it, but then again, she's the one who's learned the most in Snape's class, so it makes sense that she would. Wanda From rzl46 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 23:27:26 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:27:26 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102629 Please forgive me for not giving a post reference. Just got back from a day at the hospital. Anyway, I was really enjoying all the posts about the nature of the Pensieve--about whether it recorded things as they actually were, or if they are colored by the person who originally owned the thoughts or memories. A question occurred to me that could really shed some light on how we understand the Pensieve to operate. I'll pose it to you all. If Harry were to recored his memory of the Thestral lesson in OOP in the Pensieve, and Hermione and Ron were to view it from that source, would they be able to see the Thestrals or not? My vote is yes. Curious what the rest of you all think. MaggieB--who is really hoping to get some interesting responses to chew on. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 23:47:04 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:47:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP Getting Underway Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102630 I would like to welcome you all to join me on our maiden voyage into T-Bay. I am getting ready to set sail onboard MISS JACKSON MOVE. "What is that", you ask? Well, that could provoke a two week debate in itself. :) So, I shall give you what you are curious to know and set you on your way. There will be quite a few of you whom wish to sink MISS JACKSON MOVE yourself, but I do belive she will be afloat until the end. So, all interested in becoming a part of the crew...all aboard! Misunderstood is Severus Snape, Justifiable Attacks Careless Knowledge, Soon Order Not Mislead On Volatile Expressions Jacqui -Who can't belive I just posted that :P From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 23 23:49:31 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:49:31 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DAA3AB.30183.56186DE@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102631 On 23 Jun 2004 at 12:37, Phil Boswell wrote: > I went to a Public School, of the type upon which Hogwarts is > modelled, and I can assure you that I would have had no clue that most > of my fellow pupils even *had* parents were it not for the tall people > dropping them off and picking them up at the beginning/end of term. > > Visiting parents during term-time was strictly optional, as was > telephooning or writing to them. I was not the best correspondent ;-) The difference is though, that in Hermione's case, it's not just *term* time. It's her holidays as well. I'm using the Lexicon's dates here. Hermione arrives at the Burrow on the 23rd August, 1994 so she can go to the Quidditch World Cup. She doesn't return home after the World Cup. She stays at the school for the holidays that year. She'll finally return home on July 3rd, 1995. We don't know precisely when Hermione goes to Grimmauld Place - but the absolute latest possible date is the 2nd August 1995, and the impression I get reading OotP is she has been there much longer - since about a week after she got back from school - say July 10th, 1995. Hermione spends less than a day with her parents (term ends on the 20th, she is at Grimmauld Place that evening - considering how long the trip from Hogwarts to London is, she can't have spent more than a very short amount of time with) at Christmas. We don't have the exact date the school year ends but with the exception of 4th year (possibly non-standard because of the Triwizard Tournament) it's been around 20th June - so using that date. The evidence is that between the 23rd August 1994 and the 20th June 1996 - a period of 1 year, 8 months, 28 days - or 666 days, Hermione has spent *at most* 30 days with her parents, and more likely something like 7 days. A week in over one and a half years looks about right. Theoretically allowing for normal school holidays, she could have spent 105 days with them. The amount of time Hermione has spent with her parents in recent times is *miniscule*. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 23:54:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:54:22 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava" wrote: > vmonte wrote: > > > And I believe that the way he treats Hermione has something to do > > with her heritage. Or does he hate her because she is a know-it- all? > > No offense, good teachers love this kind of student because they > > encourage the rest of the students to also excell. Ava: > Not necessarily. (That is, good teachers don't always love this > kind of student, & this kind of student doesn't always encourage > others to learn. If little Janie is always shouting out the correct > answer, her classmate Joe Shlunk may feel too intimidated to > contribute. Or he may wonder why he should bother, when Janie is > always ready to share. > Now, a truly thought-provoking answer to a question is usually > appreciated, & THAT may stimulate others to add their 2 cents, but > that's a different issue. Alla: I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy enough to raise my hand all the time. I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I indeed raised my hand. Vmonte wrote earlier: > > I just finished reading the passage in OOTP after Harry sees into > > Snape's memories. Snape ignores Harry during class. Harry finds > > that without all of Snape's harping, potions comes quite easily to > > him (something we should remember, methinks). Harry proudly turns in > > his potions, but the second his back is turned, his beaker > > mysteriously falls off Snape's desk onto the floor, utterly > > destroyed. Another zero for Harry, says Snape. > Ava: Yes, and isn't that the priceless moment when Snape > says "Whoops"? You can almost fill in JKR's invisible > footnote: "yes, folks, it's ok to laugh at that. Poor Harry > (snort)." Alla: It is perfectly fine to laugh at that and I said earlier I did laugh at some Snape moments (His remark at Hermione's teeth, for example). This particular incident I just did not find funny. Vmonte: > > No, I personally don't see this as encouraging to any student. Any > > student, period. Faced with the same situation, I probably would > > have finally given up at that point, and quit trying. I certainly > > could not see me trying harder, what's the point? > Ava: And you've never had a teacher or boss like that? Lucky you! Alla: Teacher like Snape? Not even close. Couple of my teachers in law school were close enough to McGonagall (strict but fair), but like Snape - No. Some of my firends did have them, though. snip. Vmonte earlier: snip , I would consider Snape's class another type of > > stress, one that Harry has not been able to yet overcome. We know > > now that Harry is quite good at potions when left alone, but he will > > need to get the highest marks possible in order to consider the > > career of Auror, and with Snape around I don't see it. (Or maybe > > he'll get lucky, and for some reason there will be a new potions > > teacher next year? > > Ava: And exactly HOW would this help him learn to deal with it? And > furthermore, I thought you just said you really love Snape as a > character. So now you want to get rid of him? Replace him with > somebody nice? This would be an improvement? I think not. > > Alla: What do you mean how it would help him deal with that? Both Harry and Neville will be able to learn potions well without Snape watcheful eye. I thought that by getting rid of Snape Vmonte only meant get rid of him in the classroom, which I wholeheartedly agree with. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 23:58:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:58:01 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tookishgirl_111" < snip. > Yeah, I've had teachers like Snape myself...the taskmasters. Their > form of teaching is a tricky thing though, it can cause students to do > one of two things: flourish or die. When a teacher lays into them > some students are driven to do better, prove to their teacher that > they are good enough to remain in the class...or just to prove the > teacher wrong - which I imagine is how Hermione and Harry respond. > Of course, other students crumble under the pressure of a teacher > verbal attacking them and only begin to make mistakes that are > greater in number and seriousness- like Neville. > Alla: Exactly - flourish or die. Is it OK though to risk a chance of some students dying (in a metaphorical sense :o)), even if some will flourish? By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether he is abusive or not for one second. Yes, Shaun showed some good examples that Snape is passionate about his subject, but do we see any canon proof that his students actually learned something (besides Hermione making polyjuice potion)or that he just expects him to do well. Alla From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 00:03:34 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:03:34 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Type A? In-Reply-To: <20040623173659.83207.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1088011907.21997.25078.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40DAA6F6.25380.56E6309@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102634 On 23 Jun 2004 at 14:36, Nocturnus wrote: > Hi: > > I'm delurking here. > > I was wondering if it was possible for Hermione to develop a Type A > depression, or any disease of the sort? She is an overachiver after > all. > > I'm working on a fic project and want to have some thoughts about this > point. It's certainly not impossible - Hermione is, in many ways, the archetypal highly gifted teenage girl, and that's a group that is prone to depressive illness. If there was some sort of trigger, it could certainly happen. *Any* person can develop a depressive illness, of course. And there doesn't always have to be a reason. But the most common factors that trigger depression in gifted adolescents don't seem to be present for Hermione. She's in a challenging educational environment which she seems to enjoy, she has good friends... If you need it to happen to make your fic work, it's certainly not impossible - but I wouldn't want to give the impression I think Hermione is likely to develop depression - she's a member of a special risk group, but a lot of the factors that make it a special risk group don't seem that present at Hogwarts. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 00:06:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:06:49 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102635 > vmonte responds: > > I like Snape's character not because he is a great teacher (because > he is not) or because he is a good person (yeah right!). I think he > is a nasty, but quick witted character. I love his sarcasm! I like > him because he says things I sometimes think, but don't have enough > guts to say. I also like him because he is a fictional character and > I can vicariously live through him without ever having to actually > know him. Potioncat: I agree with everything you've said here! And I think the statement about his being a "fictional character" is the most important part of it. (I've commented before I'd particularly enjoyed the bursting jar of cockroaches, as I have a 15 year old as well.) Someone else mentioned, possibly on a different thread, that Snape is the "required cruel teacher" that you often find in books about school aged children. But JKR has presented him with a twist: he's also on the good side and often can be found helping or at least protecting the students. (at least that is MHO for his motivation) vmonte: I would not do well in his classroom, and I don't like > that he is a racist! It would be ok with it, if I believed that he > had grown up to understand that he was wrong to call Lily that "name" > as teenager, but I do not believe he does. Potioncat: I'm not sure of this one. He could still be a racist and not be a DE. Or he could have mellowed to any number of degrees on his racist ideas. I say this as a child of the South who grew up learning one set of "absolutes" who has replaced them fully and who has seen others change to differing degrees. Vmonte: snipping He also still refers to him with respect: "Dark Lord" (it gives me chills). Potioncat: I suspect he has other reasons for continuing to use Dark Lord. But it's hard to tell. BTW, have we found other characters who use this pharse? Vmonte: And I believe that the way he treats Hermione has something to do with her heritage. Or does he > hate her because she is a know-it-all? snipping Potioncat: I've been looking at that too. I don't think it's her heritage. We haven't heard of him picking on anyone else for that reason. In fact he picks on Harry and Neville more than he does her. And he appears to be marking her correctly. I'm reading GoF, because I recall it as Snape's worst. So far, IMHO, he's picking on Hermione because he thinks she and Harry are stealing potion making supplies from him. Which if we think about it, we'll find out it was Crouch!Moody who stole the supplies. I'm not supporting his method here, just that so far, I think that is his motivation. Vmonte: > I've also noticed that from day one the kids have been able to apply > the lessons they've learned from their other teachers. Nothing yet > with Snape. Potioncat: How about Polyjuice potion? and Expelliarmus? (Boy did that one come back to haunt him!) Where did Hermione learn the potion for Harry's hand in OoP (I don't think we're told.) Have we seen them using transfiguration out of class? Or herbology? I do recall a lot of Charms. Vmonte: Are we sure he is at the school to teach the kids > potions? Or are they learning something else from him? And is DD > also keeping an eye on him like he is with Trelawny? > Potioncat: I think he is there in great part because he is of help to DD against LV and he may need the protection of Hogwarts as well. Very interesting post! Potioncat From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 00:23:49 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040624002349.6869.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102636 Dumbledore Recall Order On Bellatrix Lestrange E Spells B E Sybill Trelawney B L O W I Neville G Goblins Under Ministry I can tell this is going to be a sleepless night!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 24 00:39:12 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:39:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Snape Message-ID: <1c8.1afe2447.2e0b7cb0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102637 In a message dated 6/23/2004 7:56:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Alla: I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy enough to raise my hand all the time. I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I indeed raised my hand. =========================== Sherrie here: I was EXACTLY like Hermione in school, save the bushy hair. I knew the answers not only to the questions asked, but to questions asked in grades two, three and four years above mine - and I wasn't afraid to speak up (in spite of my great-grandmother's admonishments that I shouldn't let the boys know how smart I was...:::eyeroll:::). My hand was constantly in the air, and I was right FAR more often than I was wrong, and could nearly always give citations to uphold my answers. And like Hermione - it made me no friends. You're right - MOST of my teachers never stopped me from answering - but I had one or two who found me "obnoxious". My third grade teacher was as mean as Snape is to Neville - to the point of insulting my appearance (I was a large child), and laughing when another girl pulled my chair out from under me in class, and I landed on my bum. I busted my posterior (figuratively, as well) in her class, just to prove to her that I really WAS that good - she used to take points off my essays if I misplaced a comma, but I STILL got higher grades in her class than even her pet. The point is, I worked harder for her than for any other teacher I ever had - because she thought I couldn't. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 24 00:41:32 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:41:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Snape Message-ID: <1d2.245400a9.2e0b7d3c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102638 In a message dated 6/23/2004 7:59:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether he is abusive or not for one second. =========== Sherrie here: Umbridge states in OotP (sorry - book is out on loan, so I can't cite pages), during Snape's review, that his students seem to be advanced for their level - which says to me that they're not only meeting, but exceeding the standards generally accepted for 5th year students. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 00:52:05 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:52:05 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102639 probonoprobono wrote: Secondly, I also noticed when McGonagall is discussing with Harry the career choice of Auror, she points out that you need to know how to deal with working under extreme conditions. Now, we have seen Harry "score" spectacular marks in this area in many, many real life instances. However, I would consider Snape's class another type of stress, one that Harry has not been able to yet overcome. We know now that Harry is quite good at potions when left alone, but he will need to get the highest marks possible in order to consider the career of Auror, and with Snape around I don't see it. (Or maybe he'll get lucky, and for some reason there will be a new potions teacher next year? vmonte responds: Wow, what an insightful post. I agree completely with your comments about Snape and McGonagall. Snape is a troublesome character. Perhaps Snape will get to be DADA teacher next year and Harry and kids will get a new potions master. The kids will probably continue with the Dumbledore's Army club anyway. vivian From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 00:57:44 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:57:44 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DAB3A8.24269.59FFA9F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102641 On 23 Jun 2004 at 23:58, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > Exactly - flourish or die. Is it OK though to risk a chance of some > students dying (in a metaphorical sense :o)), even if some will > flourish? Whatever (valid) teaching method a teacher chooses to use, there will always be some children in a classroom who will flourish under that method, and some who will flounder. There is no such thing as a method that works with all children, or a method that is incapable of harming some children. As I've said before, I experienced education that was based on all the ideas that were supposed to be good for children. 95% of the kids in my classes probably flourished in those environments. But I almost died - metaphorically, certainly, but as I was suicidal after a year in that environment (and the teacher reasons, to be fair, were only part of the reason, but they were a part), it was uncomfortably close to literal as well. Many people seem to develop a belief somewhere along the line that the teaching methods that worked best for them are automatically the best teaching methods available. That simply is not so. It just means that those were the methods that best suited *their* educational needs. That doesn't make them the best methods in any objective sense. By the same token, just because a method didn't work for you - or even if hurt you - doesn't objectively speakin make it a bad method. It just wasn't *right* for you. And it gets even more complicated because whether a method is a good one or a bad one, also often depends on what you want to measure. If you regard education's primary purpose as instilling academic knowledge in a child, you may favour different methods than if you regard education's primary purpose as creating a self-confident child. If you regard both as equally important, you may favour a different method again. The education I experienced and enjoyed had three primary goals. To first of all, create critical thinkers. Secondly, to instil useful knowledge. Thirdly, to eventually create highly self sufficient adults. Three main goals in that order. For *those* goals, Snape like teachers have a *very* real place in the system. A school with a different philosophy, would have different goals, and therefore would choose different methods. Just as valid. Just different. It's a mistake to believe schools can be 'all things to all people'. If a school tries to deal with *every* possible goal of education, it's likely to wind up failing to deal with most of them at all. With our modern universal education system, where we have large numbers of taxpayer funded schools open to all, though, schools are often forced to at least try and do this - because making choices as to who you help and who you don't... well, that's really tough to do. But the Wizarding World - and Hogwarts - seems different to me. First of all, it looks like there is no assumption in the Wizarding World that everyone is entitled to a secondary level education (unlike most of our modern technological societies). JKR has told us in an interview (apparently) that Hogwarts is the only school for Wizards in Britain. Neville tells us that his entire family were worried he wouldn't be able to go to Hogwarts. Consider the implications of that... Hogwarts seems to be either Britain's *only* school for Wizards - or certainly, it's most prominent. And to get in, you have to reach certain minimum standards. The Wizarding World apparently doesn't believe that secondary level education is a *right* in the same way our world does. It's a privilege. While this view may seem odd to people today, historically - including into quite recent history - it's not that unusual. The thing is, because the Wizarding World doesn't see secondary education as a fundamental right, that means it's far less likely that it feels there is any obligation to ensure that every child gets the education that would best suit their needs. The school I attended which had the staff of Snapes (-8 was one of Australia's most prestigious private schools. It worked largely on the principle that "We teach the way we teach - if that's not right for your son, then don't send him to us." It worked for me because it was right for me - and for most of my classmates, because they'd go elsewhere where it didn't. I think the Wizarding World may have something of a different attitude: "We teach the way we teach - if that's not right for you, well, we're sorry - but we don't have to educate you." In *our* world of universal, compulsory (or at least near- compulsory) education, that type of attitude is pretty unaccaptable - if you force children to go to school, you accept some extra responsibility for ensuring that the school can meet their needs. But if it's voluntary... or even more, if it's a privilege - the pressure to do that is *far* less. I think Howarts is very much a sink or swim educational environment - you don't *have* to go there - but if you do, you play by its rules. And in such an environment as that - then, frankly, methods where some will flourish and some will fail are just part of the equation. Neville doesn't do well in potions (-8. But he does do well in Herbology, and he seems to get by in other subjects. Even he seems to be getting benefit from the school. > By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof > that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether > he is abusive or not for one second. > > Yes, Shaun showed some good examples that Snape is passionate about > his subject, but do we see any canon proof that his students actually > learned something (besides Hermione making polyjuice potion)or that > he just expects him to do well. Well, we might get some decent information on this if the studenst took about the OWLs in Book 6. But for the moment, I think there is still one clear piece of evidence. Umbridge describes Snape's fifth year class as 'fairly advanced' for the level - at the same time as she is criticising Snape's syllabus choices. Umbridge doesn't seem to miss a trick in criticising the teachers - she's not going to say Snape has a fairly advanced class if it isn't true (in fact, I would suspect given the way she treats other teachers that 'fairly advanced' probably means a lot more than she says). Also, if he wasn't teaching them properly, I think we'd have heard some very bitter complaints from Hermione before now. (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 00:57:43 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:57:43 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DAB3A7.1970.59FF991@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102642 On 23 Jun 2004 at 23:54, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > > I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the > answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy > enough to raise my hand all the time. > > I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I > indeed raised my hand. Whereas, I can remember about a dozen... it's one of those areas where experiences can differ greatly. Now as I've said before, I work with gifted kids, and I was one. Teacher hostility towards students who always answer the questions is quite a common experience for these kids. It occurs for multiple reasons - sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as disruptive in some ways, because it discourages others from answering. Sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as a form of boasting. Sometimes it's because the teacher regards it as somehow unfair to other students to let the bright child be too obvious. Sometimes the teacher is a rotten teacher - other times, they may actually be a very good teacher, just not specifically informed or trained about teaching this specific population. Some teachers certainly do view these children as a plus in their classrooms - but the opposite is a very recognised problem. I'm glad you didn't experience it - but it is very common indeed. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:05:42 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:05:42 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) In-Reply-To: <20040622162251.90066.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > > I am still working on this one. I need some help. Could you guys give me as many words in the WW that you can come up with that start with the following letters: > > B D E G I L M N O R S T U W > There are some websites that make anagrams http://www.anagramsite.com/cgi-bin/getanagram.cgi It's much neater comming from the site... I also typed in Droobles Best Blowing Gum... Both gave me over 500 anagrams. Have fun! From technomad at intergate.com Thu Jun 24 01:08:10 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:08:10 -0500 Subject: Hermione's parents Message-ID: <003b01c45987$b84679e0$7b570043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102644 We're _assuming_ a great deal about Hermione's relationship with her folks, I think. It could well be that, although she loves them and they her, they're so wrapped up with something or other---a cause, their careers, the needs of other family members, or even their social lives---that as long as Hermione seems to be happy and isn't coming home all dinged-up, they pretty much accept it. You know, I just mentioned "the needs of other family members" more or less in passing, but now that I think on it, the more I like that as an explanation for Hermione's parents' apparent willingness to just let Hermione get on with whatever she is doing at the time. If, say, she has a sibling with what they now call "special needs," particularly one with very demanding special needs, that alone could eat up a lot of her parents' time and energy. Or it could just be that she's so different from what her parents are like that they're _used_ to her wanting to go her own way, and have given up fussing about it. If, say, they wanted a popular, athletic Captain-of-Games type instead of a studious, intellectual idealist, the ski trip might have been yet another thing that they loved but that Hermione herself didn't care for---"skiing's not really my thing," she says, when she turns up at 12 Grimmauld Place. Until Herself chooses to enlighten us, I will remain agnostic about Hermione's parents, other than to say that their daughter is shaping uncommonly well, and will (if she lives!) become a fine human being. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:14:55 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:14:55 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102645 Alla: What do you mean how it would help him deal with that? Both Harry and Neville will be able to learn potions well without Snape watcheful eye. I thought that by getting rid of Snape Vmonte only meant get rid of him in the classroom, which I wholeheartedly agree with. vmonte responds: I agree with you Alla. By the way except for the first quote which was mine, the rest belonged to probono I think. I don't want to get credit for his excellent post. vivian From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:16:20 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:16:20 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Gina: > > I have GREAT hope for Neville's parents and I fully > believe > > something is going on here. Maybe there IS a message but Neville > cannot > > figure it out and is too embarrassed to ask anyone for help! > > > > > > > Potioncat: > Or perhaps he doesn't yet know there is a message. > I think Neville keeps the wrappers as a sentimental attachment to his mom. I don't think he thinks they are clues to something. HOWVER, I think in the next book he WILL start to think something and then piece the clues together. I also think he will be the one to gain extra powers in the next two books. ~Mo From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:53:48 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:53:48 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102647 Potioncat wrote: How about Polyjuice potion? and Expelliarmus? (Boy did that one come back to haunt him!) Where did Hermione learn the potion for Harry's hand in OoP (I don't think we're told.) Have we seen them using transfiguration out of class? Or herbology? I do recall a lot of Charms. vmonte responds: OOPS! I thought that Hermione got the polyjuice potion from one of her Transfiguration class books. Where did she learn how to overcome the devil's snare? vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:59:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:59:20 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102648 Nikki responds: -From the Yahooligans chat with JRK, 20 October 2000: "Lhhicks99 asks: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? Jkrowling_bn: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life. Horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!" Well, I couldn't have said it better myself, but that's just the point I've been wanting to make - professors teach more than just the subject matter in class, Snape included. So here's my question: How would Harry & the others have reacted to Umbridge if they hadn't had to deal with Snape in (and out of) class? vmonte responds: I'm glad you brought up her quote. He is a horrible teacher. Period. vivian From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 02:16:55 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:16:55 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts about Racism in HP (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102649 [Lee] asked: >I'm going to toss out another thought into this thread...something not >quite >along the lines of racism, but certainly along the lines of discrimination. > >What of a child, either pureblood or not, who has a physical or visual >impairment but is magical? Can we get talking spell books, etc? Or would >such children be denied a proper education in the WW? Would that child's >parents have to fight to get him/her into a wizarding school? My opinion on this interesting question: According to canon, I believe, a child's name is either written in Hogwarts' book or it is not. Nothing is said about the child's physical condition except that, presumably, he or she has to be capable of learning magic (which might cause a problem for a severely retarded child, although if they took Crabbe and Goyle ...) There would be certain challenges in the child's academic career, but in some ways the wizarding school might be better prepared for such than a muggle school. They have vicious attack books (The Monster Book of Monsters) and a book that screams in the Restricted section of the Hogwarts library; how hard would a talking spell book be? Teachers who depend on visual cues for teaching (Flitwick's wand motions, Snape's description of potion colors) would have to include other cues. (Would a blind student still see a an object of fear when faced with a boggart in a DADA class?) Riding a broomstick unaccompanied might be dangerous since the student wouldn't be able to see a) where he was going or b) the presence of other broomstick riders, trees, towers ... and Quidditch would be Right Out. Perhaps he could have an assistance animal as his familiar. A large Kneazel would be perfect. >I can't help but wish that JKR would tackle a blind wizard being admitted >to >Hogwarts. I'm sure most of the profs would be great, but I have serious >doubts about Snape being willing to accommodate. :-) I wonder. Draco Malfoy would probably behave foully, but I think Snape might not. He might well be concerned about danger, to the student or to others; but he might also take it as a challenge which he was equal to as a Potions Master. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 02:17:17 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:17:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <003b01c45987$b84679e0$7b570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102650 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette (freely admitting that her snippage may obfuscate Mr. Oppen's meaning, and apologizing) says I'm watching a home program on BBC-America, and the homeowners are two somewhat elderly dentists. Then I remember acquaintances who were only children of older parents. These girls (the ones I knew were girls) were treated like tiny little grownups. They never heard baby talk, they didn't require discipline or supervision (remember Miss Minchin telling Sara that her father must have hired a French maid because he wished Sara to learn French, and Sara replying that he had hired her because "he thought I would *like* her") and they were incredibly self-possessed. Besides, if you count up the amount of time an only child and its parents spend up each others' noses, they could easily have had quite enough togetherness by the time the kid is eleven. --JDR From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 24 02:19:01 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:19:01 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Potioncat wrote: > > OOPS! I thought that Hermione got the polyjuice potion from one of > her Transfiguration class books. > > Where did she learn how to overcome the devil's snare? > Devil's Snare was in Herbology, I'm pretty sure. She got the Polyjuice Potion from a special book in the Restricted Section of the Library, not from their regular textbook. As I recall, she flattered Gilderoy Lockhart into signing the permission slip for her to get it (no chance of getting something like that past Snape!). So though it wasn't something she learned directly in Snape's class, she learned how to make a potion from him, and applied the knowledge independently. Wanda From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 02:20:15 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040624022015.26702.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102652 --- vmonte wrote: > Alla: > What do you mean how it would help him deal with that? Both Harry and > > Neville will be able to learn potions well without Snape watcheful > eye. > > I thought that by getting rid of Snape Vmonte only meant get rid of > him in the classroom, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I see no difference here. What would getting rid of Snape in classroom, or suggesting him to adopt a new personality or character makeover as Snape-bashers kept emphasized mean to the story? how would that help or improve storytelling and character development? or make HP books a better read? Asking JKR to not writing Snape in teaching situation is like asking some of the most entertaining and dramtaic aspects of these books to be removed, just so the books won't be "upsetting", Harry won't be "suffering" or whatever suit you. You're asking to replace basically a character's role and his function in the story. It's one thing to bash Snape as a horrible teacher as an expected reader's reaction. But what's the point of all these repeating and tiring "let's get rid of Snape" argument in terms of canon discussion? Will replacing McGonagall as Snape's role in teaching Occlumency in Book 5 make a better point purely because McGonagall is "nice" and "fair" teacher? Getting rid fo all incompetent, horrible teachers in Hogwarts (that would be quite a few of them) and replacing them with proper PERFECT teachers that nicely matched real life's golden standard would make the story boring and pointless as that would serve no story purpose. For those who can't handle "upsetting" aspect of the books, I'm afraid Snape is here to stay till book 7 and Harry will have to continue to deal with him, why? because it's FUN reading, well at least for all those who *truly* appreciate Snape as a character. D. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 02:45:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:45:54 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <20040624022015.26702.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dolies wrote: > > Alla: > > What do you mean how it would help him deal with that? Both Harry and > > > > Neville will be able to learn potions well without Snape watcheful > > eye. > > > > I thought that by getting rid of Snape Vmonte only meant get rid of > > him in the classroom, which I wholeheartedly agree with. > Dolies: > I see no difference here. > > What would getting rid of Snape in classroom, or suggesting him to > adopt a new personality or character makeover as Snape-bashers kept > emphasized mean to the story? how would that help or improve > storytelling and character development? or make HP books a better read? > Asking JKR to not writing Snape in teaching situation is like asking > some of the most entertaining and dramtaic aspects of these books to be > removed, just so the books won't be "upsetting", Harry won't be > "suffering" or whatever suit you. You're asking to replace basically a > character's role and his function in the story. It's one thing to bash > Snape as a horrible teacher as an expected reader's reaction. But > what's the point of all these repeating and tiring "let's get rid of > Snape" argument in terms of canon discussion? Will replacing > McGonagall as Snape's role in teaching Occlumency in Book 5 make a > better point purely because McGonagall is "nice" and "fair" teacher? > Getting rid fo all incompetent, horrible teachers in Hogwarts (that > would be quite a few of them) and replacing them with proper PERFECT > teachers that nicely matched real life's golden standard would make the > story boring and pointless as that would serve no story purpose. For > those who can't handle "upsetting" aspect of the books, I'm afraid > Snape is here to stay till book 7 and Harry will have to continue to > deal with him, why? because it's FUN reading, well at least for all > those who *truly* appreciate Snape as a character. > > D. Alla: You misunderstood me again. I am not asking to get rid of Snape as a teacher now. By all means not. I am perfectly happy that he is going to stay in the story till the end. In fact that is the only reason why I am still able to sympathise with him. But I am most defnitely hoping that at the end of the series, if he is alive, he will find himself a new profession. I think it is a possibility. Alla From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jun 24 02:46:43 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney, true Seer Message-ID: <75.2cd24708.2e0b9a93@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102654 In a message dated 6/23/04 4:57:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >Note that when Harry and Ron manufacture a load of rubbish for their homework, they get full marks. Why? Because Trelawney can't tell the difference. She's mostly a fraud and the less gullible students (Hermione) and members of staff (McGonagall) realise it. I suspect that she knows it too, hence her infrequent appearances at the staff dining table. She only has the job because DD wants to keep an eye on her. Kneasy< I think that Trelawney does see what is happening but interprets it wrong. Take the fact that she constantly saw the Grim in POA when dealing with Harry. She interprets it as a bad omen, but as we find out later, Sirius is a black dog and in OOTP he comes from Grimmauld place. Her seeing this black dog around Harry is correct, but wrong about it being a bad omen. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 03:06:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:06:33 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40DAB3A8.24269.59FFA9F@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: snip. > Many people seem to develop a belief somewhere along the line that > the teaching methods that worked best for them are automatically > the best teaching methods available. That simply is not so. It just > means that those were the methods that best suited *their* > educational needs. That doesn't make them the best methods in any > objective sense. By the same token, just because a method didn't > work for you - or even if hurt you - doesn't objectively speakin > make it a bad method. It just wasn't *right* for you. Alla: Shaun, I can only speak for myself, I cannot speak for many people, but my beliefs are a little bit different. it is not that "the methods that are worked for me are the best", it is "the teaching methods I was taught are the best" As I mentioned earlier, I underwent four years of training to become a teacher, therefore I am somewhat familiar with the subject matter, even if I did not become a teacher in the end. Shaun: > And it gets even more complicated because whether a method is a > good one or a bad one, also often depends on what you want to > measure. > > If you regard education's primary purpose as instilling academic > knowledge in a child, you may favour different methods than if you > regard education's primary purpose as creating a self-confident > child. If you regard both as equally important, you may favour a > different method again. Alla: Yep, self-confidence is very important and as I said before even if child learns the material and at the same time gets very real emotional scars from such learning, it is not worth it To ME. > snip. > > > Hogwarts seems to be either Britain's *only* school for Wizards - > or certainly, it's most prominent. And to get in, you have to reach > certain minimum standards. > > The Wizarding World apparently doesn't believe that secondary level > education is a *right* in the same way our world does. It's a > privilege. > > While this view may seem odd to people today, historically - > including into quite recent history - it's not that unusual. > > The thing is, because the Wizarding World doesn't see secondary > education as a fundamental right, that means it's far less likely > that it feels there is any obligation to ensure that every child > gets the education that would best suit their needs. Alla: I understand what are you talking about perfectly, but I don't remember any proof in canon that to get to Hogwarts you have to reach certain standards. Hogwarts is the only wisarding school in Britain, yes. Most exclusive? Not necessarily. The only reason why Neville's family was worried is that they thought that he was a squib. It seems to me that any MAGICAL child can get to Hogwarts. Shaun: > I think the Wizarding World may have something of a different > attitude: "We teach the way we teach - if that's not right for you, > well, we're sorry - but we don't have to educate you." > > In *our* world of universal, compulsory (or at least near- > compulsory) education, that type of attitude is pretty unaccaptable > - if you force children to go to school, you accept some extra > responsibility for ensuring that the school can meet their needs. > > But if it's voluntary... or even more, if it's a privilege - the > pressure to do that is *far* less. > Alla: I would agree with you, but again I don't remember any proof that Hogwarts can deny admission to fully magical child from England. snip. Alla: > > By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof > > that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether > > he is abusive or not for one second. > > > > Yes, Shaun showed some good examples that Snape is passionate about > > his subject, but do we see any canon proof that his students actually > > learned something (besides Hermione making polyjuice potion)or that > > he just expects him to do well. Shaun: > Well, we might get some decent information on this if the studenst > took about the OWLs in Book 6. > > But for the moment, I think there is still one clear piece of > evidence. > > Umbridge describes Snape's fifth year class as 'fairly advanced' > for the level - at the same time as she is criticising Snape's > syllabus choices. Umbridge doesn't seem to miss a trick in > criticising the teachers - she's not going to say Snape has a > fairly advanced class if it isn't true (in fact, I would suspect > given the way she treats other teachers that 'fairly advanced' > probably means a lot more than she says). Alla: Oh, yes. It is a good evidence. Thanks. I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape in classroom, though. :) > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 03:12:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:12:54 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102656 > annunathradien wrote previously: > > I think Seers brains may also be worth studying. Cassandra > Trelawney's mind, for example, may be a candidate in that tank. Ron > has displayed some Seer abilities off and on throughout the series. > What if this attack somehow awakens this possibly latent talent in > him? Although I wonder about the side effects. > > > vmonte responds: > > Yes, I posted before that maybe the brain was from a seer but > Cassandra never occurred to me. Good thoughts! I think that you are > right about this attack possibly awakening Ron's latent talents. > > I also think that in the next 2 books Ron is going to be involved a > lot more with things. Not as a side-kick, but as a leader. > > DD is definitely going to die sometime in the next 2 books. The > children are being trained to continue the work of the Order. I > think that one of these kids will take over the role of DD. I think > it's Ron. > > vivian Alla: I like Cassandra's brain attacking Ron too, but I am afraid that it was indeed the brain of somebody, who went dark. If it was indeed Cassandra and as it was discussed Ron will discover true Seer abilities, I will even settle for Trelawney being mostly a fraud. :o) I really want to have a real Seer in the series. :o) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 03:25:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:25:12 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <1d2.245400a9.2e0b7d3c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/2004 7:59:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dumbledore11214 at y... writes: > By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof > that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether > he is abusive or not for one second. > =========== > Sherrie here: > > Umbridge states in OotP (sorry - book is out on loan, so I can't cite pages), > during Snape's review, that his students seem to be advanced for their level > - which says to me that they're not only meeting, but exceeding the standards > generally accepted for 5th year students. > > Sherrie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Alla: Thanks, Sherrie. I looked it up. It is page 363 in american edition. "Well,the class seems fairly advanced for their level," she said briskly to Snape's back." From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 03:54:52 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:54:52 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: <40DAB3A8.24269.59FFA9F@localhost> Message-ID: <40DADD2C.30790.6422E2D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102658 On 24 Jun 2004 at 3:06, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > Shaun, I can only speak for myself, I cannot speak for many people, > but my beliefs are a little bit different. > > it is not that "the methods that are worked for me are the best", it > is "the teaching methods I was taught are the best" OK, that is certainly different. > As I mentioned earlier, I underwent four years of training to become > a teacher, therefore I am somewhat familiar with the subject matter, > even if I did not become a teacher in the end. I'm currently studying to be a teacher - and it's an interesting fact that my university, around the year 2000, completely changed the way it trained teachers from the period 1985-1999, and in 1985, they changed from the methods they used from 1977-84 (1977 was a change as well but I don't know when the method they were using prior to that was introduced). The way they teach teachers to teach changes quite regularly in line with new theories, reassessments of old theories, personal preferences by the people designing the course, etc, etc. I also know that the methods we are taught at my university are considerably different from those being taught to education students at the two other universities I am most familiar with. In my course, we are taught there are a range of valid measures, they will teach us some of the range, and it's up to us to develop our own styles and views based on what works for us (and also for the environment we wind up teaching in). We are most definitely *not* taught that the ways they are teaching us are the best ways - merely that they are ways they have found generally successful most of the time, and so are useful 'defaults' to be used until we develop our own teaching styles and beliefs. The idea that the way a teacher was taught to teach might be considered the best way, quite frankly horrifies me because I was educated by several teachers who had been taught I didn't exist. Theories change, ideas change, and teacher training, like any form of education, is sometimes heavily influenced by ideology rather than fact. The methods you were taught may be good methods - hopefully it's very rare that teachers are actually taught bad ones - but I doubt any education course can ever claim to universally be teaching something they can claim are the best methods possible in all circumstances for all children. But there are hundreds of places around the world where teachers are trained, and the methods they are taught to use change quite regularly... they can't *all* be teaching the best ways (-8 > Alla: > > Yep, self-confidence is very important and as I said before even if > child learns the material and at the same time gets very real > emotional scars from such learning, it is not worth it To ME. It wouldn't be to me either. But I can't see any evidence of any student at Hogwarts winding up with educational scarring because of Snape. There's a big difference between a classroom environment being uncomfortable for a child to be in, and between it actually causing any form of significant damage. I can see that Neville is very uncomfortable in Snape's classes - and that means he doesn't learn much. But that doesn't mean he's being scarred by the experience. What we see is that over time, Neville develops both competence and confidence while at Hogwarts. Alla: > > I understand what are you talking about perfectly, but I don't > remember any proof in canon that to get to Hogwarts you have to reach > certain standards. Hogwarts is the only wisarding school in Britain, > yes. Most exclusive? Not necessarily. If it's the only one, then by definition it's the most exclusive. (Also, by definition, it would be the least exclusive.) It has a minimum standard for entry - it is not open to *all* children born into Wizarding families. > The only reason why Neville's family was worried is that they thought > that he was a squib. It seems to me that any MAGICAL child can get to > Hogwarts. "'Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch,' said Neville, 'but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages. My Great Uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me - he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned - but nothing happened until I was eight. Great Uncle Algie came round for dinner, and he was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my Great Auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced - all the way down the garden and into the road. They were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy. And you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad.'" (PS, p, 93) That paragraph seems to tell us that not all magical children get to go to Hogwarts. Until Neville was 8, his family was worried he was a squib - all- Muggle, as he calls it here. Neville's bouncing showed that her wasn't a squib. But it's quite clear that that didn't mean Neville was going to go to Hogwarts. It's quite clear from what Neville says that "They were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy." and "And you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see." are separate incidents. He's talking about two separate occasions. Even after it became clear Neville wasn't a squib, his family were still concerned he might not be 'magic enough' for Hogwarts. > I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape > in classroom, though. :) Very probably. But would Hermione? Would Seamus? Would Parvati? Would Dean? Would Lavender? There are, depending on which numbers you believe anywhere from 280 to 1000 students at Hogwarts. The importance of the fact that Harry and Neville might learn more with a different teacher could only be accurately assessed if we know what it means for the other students. And there may not be another teacher available. We have some indications that Dumbledore has a hard time finding staff... Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 04:03:27 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:03:27 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <20040624022015.26702.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102659 Alla: What do you mean how it would help him deal with that? Both Harry and Neville will be able to learn potions well without Snape watcheful eye. I thought that by getting rid of Snape Vmonte only meant get rid of him in the classroom, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I see no difference here. D wrote: What would getting rid of Snape in classroom, or suggesting him to adopt a new personality or character makeover as Snape-bashers kept emphasized mean to the story? vmonte responds: Again, the quote you two are talking about is not mine. I'm not a Snape basher, I see him as JKR writes him. I also think that it's ok to appreciate a character like Snape without over justifying his "clearly" poor teaching methods. As JKR says, "He is a horrible teacher." I still like this character and wouldn't mind if he was the real villian instead of Voldemort who seems very one-dimensional. If he turns out to be Squidward, that's also ok with me. vivian :) From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 04:16:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:16:56 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102660 Alla: I like Cassandra's brain attacking Ron too, but I am afraid that it was indeed the brain of somebody, who went dark. If it was indeed Cassandra and as it was discussed Ron will discover true Seer abilities, I will even settle for Trelawney being mostly a fraud. :o) I really want to have a real Seer in the series. :o) vmonte responds: I can imagine Ron falling asleep in Trelawny's class next year when he suddenly snaps alert and begins speaking in that eerie Seer voice: 'She who spoke the prophecy will die at the hands of the dark lord...' How many times did she tell Harry that he was going to die? What goes around, comes around. :) vivian From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 06:09:21 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:09:21 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's secret message - Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: > > I've thought about this and read other theories, but none seem > to fit. One theory was Bella et.al. knew that the Longbottoms, as > Aurors, may have been involved with questioning Sirius when he was > sent to Azkaban. Bella hoped the Longbottoms picked up something > useful from him. > > ...edited. > > Anyone else? > > Jen Reese Asian_lovre2: Straying slightly.... Why did Bella come after the Longbottoms? What made her think they had any special knowledge? One the night Voldemort was defeated by Harry at Godric's Hollow, Hagrid rescued Harry, but didn't deliver him to Privet Drive and the Dursleys until the next night after midnight. Nearly 24 hours between 'pick-up' and 'drop-off'. That leaves the question, where did Hagrid and baby Harry go for that full day? While certainly a gentle giant, I don't see Hagrid as being very adept at baby care, so he would logically find a someone who was better, more knowledgeable, and more skilled at caring for a baby. In addition, it would have to be someone that Dumbledore had the highest trust in, and someone magically powerful and skilled enough to protect Harry if the need arose. Frank and Alice Longbottom were Auror, the most highly trained and skilled members of Magical Law Enforcement, and more importantly, they were member of The Order of the Phoenix, and good and trusted friends of Dumbledore. AND, they had a son the same age as Harry. That seems to meet all the requirements of a safe and trusted place, as well as safe and trusted people with which Harry could stay until Dumbledore made arrangements to place Harry with the Dursleys. If events played out the way I described, that would have given the Longbottoms access to Harry, and other knowledgable people, immmediately after the events at Godric's Hollow occured. That seems sufficient for an outsider to reach the conclusion that the Longbottoms had unique and inside information about the disposition of Voldemort, and could give a nutcase like Bellatrix sufficient excuse to attack the Longbottoms. Just a thought. Steve From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 06:43:18 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:43:18 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: <55.5a988a1e.2e0aeaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gonecrzyNSC at a... wrote: > gbannister10 at a... writes: > Mark Evans Christie: > Forgive me for butting in, but my mom has borrowed OoTP, so I can't look at > it right now. I am trying to remember what the mention of Mark Evans is. I've > read a lot of fan fiction lately and am getting some of it mixed up LOL Was > it with the Sorting Hat or is he a neighbor on Privet Drive? Geoff: Canon as usual! '"Hey, Big D!" Dudley turned. "Oh," he grunted, "It's you." "How long have you been 'Big D' then?" said Harry. "Shut it," snarled Dudley, turning away. "Cool name," said Harry, grinning and falling into step beside his cousin. "But you'll always be 'Ickle Diddykins' to me." "I said, SHUT IT!" said Dudley whose ham-like hands had curled into fists. "Don't the boys know that's what your mum calls you?" "Shut your face." "You don't tell /her/ to shut her face. What about 'Popkin' and 'Dinky Diddydums', can I use them then?" Dudley said nothing. The effort of keeping himself from hitting Harry seemed to demand all hi self-control. "So, who've you been beating up tonight?" Harry asked, his grin fading. "Another ten-year old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago - " "He was asking for it," snarled Dudley. "Oh yeah?" "He cheeked me."' (OOTP "Dudley Demented" p.17 UK edition) From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 23:24:55 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:24:55 -0000 Subject: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flame... In-Reply-To: <56739267.20040623141809@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102663 Susanne wrote: > I'd be disappointed if there weren't some consequences in > the next book, though I am not at all sure I will like what > she has planned for Ron. I can feel where your coming from, but I'm also insanely curious on what she might do with it. As long as there's compelling story to be told, even if it's painful, I'm there. Although I admit I have a bit of a masochistic side, especially when it comes to HP. I *loathed* Umbridge, but then I'm hard pressed to find another character of late I've loved to hate more. Not comparing Ron to Umbridge, but you know... sometimes there can be pleasure in the pain. Then again, I *am* masochistic. annunathradien From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 07:30:41 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:30:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102664 HunterGreen previously: >>> Combined with the fact that the giants are so far away, I don't see why either side is bothering. <<< greatelderone replied: >> You don't seem to realize that distance seems to be minimized through the use of magic. In the case of the giants, Voldemort could just bring them over with the use of several portkeys. << HunterGreen: Indeed he could, but how to get them to agree to that? I think the giants have their own agenda, and while it might be possible to set up some sort of relations with them, I think convincing to fight for a cause could be asking too much. From suzehowe at cox.net Thu Jun 24 00:00:31 2004 From: suzehowe at cox.net (Suze Howe) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:00:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Type A? In-Reply-To: <20040623173659.83207.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1088011907.21997.25078.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040623164943.00b85eb8@pop.west.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102665 Ooooh....my first post.... At 02:36 PM 6/23/2004 -0300, Nocturnus wrote: >I was wondering if it was possible for Hermione to develop a Type A >depression, or any disease of the sort? She is an overachiver after all. Well, speaking as someone with clinical depression, I can honestly say that it can happen to anybody at any time for any reason. But if we're talking about a pushing-herself-to-the-brink sort of thing, I can see that possibly happening to Hermione. Some people absolutely thrive on constant pressure, deadlines, and the headaches of overachievement. But others push themselves too far and crack. I haven't read the books in quite a while (I'm currently waiting for my replacement books to arrive, as various family members have appropriate the rest!), so I can't put my finger on any good canon examples of indicators. Though, having just seen the PoA movie, the simple fact that she's using *time travel* to get to all her classes shows that she's driving herself relentlessly. Anyway, that's my 2 galleons. Hope it helps! -- Suze From cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 01:26:06 2004 From: cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com (cowardly_heroic) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:26:06 -0000 Subject: More on Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102666 Snip: Alla said By the way, I am still waiting for someone to show me canon proof that Snape is a good teacher academically. :o)Let's put aside whether he is abusive or not for one second. Patty says: Normally, I'm a lurker but I was wondering if this counted. Snape has a NEWT level class and only accepts O's as acceptance. He also said in the beginning of OOTP that he would be extremely displeased if any of his students received anything less than an A (I'm not totally sure, don't have a copy of OOTP with me). Doesn't this imply that he normally has a NEWT level class to teach, and thus meaning he has several students who get O's? And that at least the worst students would be getting around an A? It would seem that they are learning well enough since he has high expectations. He has high expectations because those expectations are probable to an extent. Patty From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 05:30:59 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 05:30:59 -0000 Subject: A SHIP thought or two Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102667 The ol' SHIPping debate makes for interesting reading when there isn't much else to talk about (and even when there is). I thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix and see what happens. All SHIPpers should take heart--In my view, JKR has left the possibilities open. To wit: Ron's interest in Hermione is overt, but apparently under control. Strongest evidence: GOF--Yule Ball and sequelae, OOTP--his gift of perfume and his anger over any mention of Krum and his disorientation following Hermione's good luck kiss. The "under control" part evidence: He is around her constantly with no real change in their relationship. He obviously isn't making her uncomfortable or she would disappear. Also, Harry hasn't commented on it. Hermione's interest is not overt, but hinted at by JKR. In GOF, the most we can say is she is affected by his reaction. Ron has an effect on her (as opposed to being a no-count in her life), but she doesn't state the exact effect. In OOTP, their are still only hints. She seems to be watching Ron--appraising, if you will. You'll notice that she is very aware of Ron in OOTP. She wonders where he is then he comes in out of the cold. Her "frostiness seems to melt," etc. She distracts him with a kiss so he won't see the Slytherin badges. This could just be solicitous friendship, though. For H/H SHIPpers, no doors have been closed. It's interesting that the moment when she most appraises Ron is when he demonstrates his loyalty to Harry after the letter from Percy in OOTP. This scene clearly demonstrates the importance of these two guys in her life, but it's amenable to multiple interpretations. Also, Ron's interest in Hermione has clearly been more overt than any return interest on her part. About SHIPping in general: Some folks wonder why we even have these discussions about such young characters. In fact, I've wondered about my own interest in the debates. I've come up with a few hypotheses. One of them is a compliment to JKR; the other, a potential criticism of her work. The compliment is she has created characters that inspire suspension of disbelief (of which a great deal is required with this storyline, you must admit) and concern. Those of us who enjoy the books actually care, while we are suspending disbelief, what happens to the characters. I would guess that the same formula that makes the books so popular is at work here, that is, that we can somehow relate to these people, so SHIPping debates are symptomatic of a certain vicariety from us, much in the same way people sometimes discuss the futures (romantic and otherwise) of characters on TV shows. The potential criticism is this: I have noticed that what I believe to be JKR's adult perspective bleeds into the dialogue and characterizations from time to time. Look at some of her phrasing. For instance, in OOTP Harry describes his date with Cho as "a fiasco." Would a fifteen year-old use that term (maybe it's more common in the UK)? Hermione after hatching the DA idea, says, "Listen, Ron and I have been sounding out people who we thought might want to learn..." What kind of fifteen year-old says that? I think, perhaps, JKR might have overshot the mark in portraying Hermione's sophistication. It could be that the language of the book is leading us into thinking of the characters as adults. Now I've been an R/H SHIPper from the start, but my tendency might be a case of movie contamination. Also, though, for some reason I want Ron to "get the girl." I can't even explain why. For some reason, Ron evokes more pathos from me than Harry. I wonder if anyone else feels that way? Maybe it's just the simple fact that Ron has demonstrated an interest, so it's easy to feel for him. Harry, on the other hand, has been relatively detached regarding Hermione. Maybe it's that I like the way Ron and Hermione seem to keep each other in check. For you H/H-ers out there, I will say this: In OOTP, Hermione and Harry develop *something*. I don't know if it is a precursor to romantic involvement, but they definitely develop an understanding that, for the moment, excludes Ron. JKR begins this early in OOTP when Harry and Hermione notice Malfoy's comment about "dogging." Rowling seems to make quite a point of mentioning that Ron noticed noticed nothing (the description merited its own line in my American edition). Harry and Hermione become "in tune" with each other in OOTP, but I'm not sure what it means. Ron continues to demonstrate an obliviousness. Ron is the most realistically portrayed adolescent of the three. He is about "on schedule" as far as I can tell. Hermione and Harry as advancing a bit further. We'll have to see how it all ends up! Brian B. From marshbur at cs.unc.edu Thu Jun 24 06:48:15 2004 From: marshbur at cs.unc.edu (marshbur at cs.unc.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:48:15 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102668 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > But if we've learned anything from JKR, it's that the obvious rarely > happens. If we all think Ron is so obvious for this, then wouldn't > that make him a less liekly target? Plus, JKR likes letting the trio > make their own choices. Ron would assumedly have no choice with an > imperio. (After all, it was not Hermione who read the diary in COS.) > > That's why I think some less well-known character whom the trio do > not suspect as evil will be the one. What about Neville? We've never see nearly as much of his personality, so Rowling could reasonably pull off "character changes" under some other guise more easily. Also, he's been a present character, but not as central as the trio (much like Ginny was in CoS). It would be known by the DEs that he's in the same house (and perhaps that he's in the same dorm room) as Harry. Finally, Neville has the background and family to be largely above reproach or at least to be unexpected by the WW (and this resonates with the near-constant message of making no assumptions based on blood). It would be a sadistic twist on the part of the DEs to curse Neville in this way (and Granny Longbottom seems to keep losing family members, as they say). I'd hate to see Neville be the one under Imperius, but I also think it's likely... cheers, -david From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 08:27:03 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:27:03 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102669 probonoprobono wrote: >>Now, on to Snape. I just finished reading the passage in OOTP after Harry sees into Snape's memories. (Sorry, I don't have the book with me for page numbers). Snape ignores Harry during class. Harry finds that without all of Snape's harping, potions comes quite easily to him (something we should remember, methinks). Harry proudly turns in his potions, but the second his back is turned, his beaker mysteriously falls off Snape's desk onto the floor, utterly destroyed. Another zero for Harry, says Snape. No, I personally don't see this as encouraging to any student. Any student, period. Faced with the same situation, I probably would have finally given up at that point, and quit trying. I certainly could not see me trying harder, what's the point?<< HunterGreen: But that's not really Snape failing as a teacher, but failing as a person. Clearly, he'd never be in this situation with another student (the Harry/Snape relationship AND what had just happened between them was too extreme and specific), so Harry is not really an example of his teaching skills. There's no way that he thought giving Harry a zero for something he had no control over was going to encourage him as a student (BUT his previous nastiness to Harry/Neville *could* be intrepreted as a teaching style), it was just him failing to control his emotions. As for Snape's harping making it hard to do potions, maybe its just the other way around: Snape's constant pushing (and criticizing) "toughened" Harry up, making doing potions in Snape's absense comparatively easier. As in, if he'd had a kindhearted potions teacher, doing potions on his own could be harder without the encouragement(of course, the kindhearted teacher might have been better at building confidence--but the end result is the same). From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jun 24 08:38:44 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:38:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More ... Message-ID: <1ea.23c50809.2e0bed14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102670 In a message dated 6/23/2004 11:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: As I mentioned earlier, I underwent four years of training to become a teacher, therefore I am somewhat familiar with the subject matter, even if I did not become a teacher in the end. ===================== Sherrie here: Training which doesn't happen in the WW. Very good training, I'm certain - you sound like the sort of teacher I'd have liked a child of mine to have - but it's training in modern theories of education. IMHO, this isn't really applicable to the WW or Hogwarts - which appears to operate along a much more Victorian educational model - when school was taught with a book in one hand and a rod in the other. Another thing about Snape - knowing he's now about 36 or 37 years old, and that he's been teaching for 14 years, he was 22 or 23 when he started - not much older than some of his students. (In fact, some of his sixth and seventh years probably knew him AS a student.) IMHO, he would have felt the need then to assert the authority of his new osition - and what appears to be Snape's model of an authority figure? Dad, or the Dark Lord... That harshness just never went away. Just a thought. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 24 08:32:14 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:32:14 -0000 Subject: Are house-elves _slaves,_ as such? In-Reply-To: <00a301c45951$d24496f0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102671 "Sherry Gomes" wrote: [attribution lost] > I was thinking about house-elves (WAAAY too much time on my > hands---not enough to read! Write, JKR, write!) and it occurred to > me that house-elves' servitude is not really slavery _eo nomine._ [erudition snipped] > Sherry now: > The point still goes back to the fact that the elf cannot be free, > unless the master gives them clothes. The choice is not the elf's, > it is the wizard's. To me, that seems like a form of slavery. > Your message gave me something to think about, though. True enough, but what has been the effect of giving a house-elf freedom that we have seen thus far? Winky is totally distraught and has become a Butterbeerholic: I think JKR said in a Q&A session that she might never recover. Dobby wandered the length and breadth of the land looking for employment and failed to find anywhere that would suit until he and Winky thought to go to Dumbledore at Hogwarts. There he found a "master" who was willing to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement (including not *too* much in the way of payment :-). Given the reaction of the other Hogwarts house-elves to W&D, and recalling Hagrid's comment (something about finding a weirdo in any breed?), one does not detect any particular likelihood that freeing a house-elf would be gratefully received in all but the most strenuous circumstances, like Dobby's for example. HTH HAND -- Phil From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 24 08:35:35 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:35:35 -0000 Subject: Chapter 20 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102672 "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Tom's mother wasn't around for him. It says in COS in Chap 13: [quote snipped] > So, unless he was able to get more information about her life and > lineage, which I guess he did, otherwise he wouldn't know what her > thoughts were on pure-blood vs non-pure-blood. It does raise the question of how he ever discovered that he was descended from Salazar Slytherin. Makes you wonder which wizard family Tom Riddle's Mother belonged to, and whether there are more of *his* family to appear! -- Phil From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 24 08:41:20 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:41:20 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102673 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy: > > If the victims of the Imperio existed in a dream like state they > > would be very easy to spot and whisked off to St Mungos before > > they could do any harm. > > > I think the victim behaves in anyway the aggressor wants them to > > behave. Instructs them to perform physical tasks and controls > > their emotional state as well. What power! I can tell you I'm > > seduced by it. Would I be tempted to use it if I had the skill? > > Oh, yeah. > Geoff: > This is certainly supported by canon. [quote snipped] > (GOF "Veritaserum" p.597 UK edition) > This, as Crouch's description shows later, was before Moody was > overcome and Crouch Jr. started using the Polyjuice Potion. So > Crouch Snr. was under the Inmperius Curse well before the World Cup > and no one noticed any difference. Sorry, Geoff, but you've recalled wrongly. This was *after* the QWC because Winky had already been dismissed and it was just the 2 Bartys in the house. HTH HAND -- Phil From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jun 24 05:22:46 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 05:22:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102674 wrote: > > Gina wrote : > > Think about it - Hermione is always with Harry! > > Del replies : > ... Except when she's with Ron, as Prefects for example. That's a > pretty big clue for R/H, don't you think ? Anasazi replies: Oh, spending time with your favorite guy alone during Prefect duty is a very big clue. I think Hermione agrees with you too... now, let us consult canon and look at the moment Hermione heard the news that there was a another Prefect in Grimmauld Place. "Hermione came tearing into the room, her cheeks flushed and her hair flying. There was an envelope in her hand. 'Did you - did you get -?' She spotted the badge in Harry's hand and let out a shriek.'I knew it!' she said excitedly, brandishing her letter. 'Me too, Harry, me too!' 'No,' said Harry quickly, pushing the badge back into Ron's hand. 'It's Ron,not me.' 'It - what? i-' 'Ron's prefect, not me,' Harry said. 'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But ... are you sure? I mean -' Now, if Hermione wanted some alone time with her boy toy Ron, why wouldn't she wish for Ron to get the badge? See how she says "I knew it!" as if she had dreamed of sharing the position with Harry. And te "But... are you sure?" only makes things worse. And remember, this is not my interpretation... THIS IS CANON. Now, the rest of your points might be valid or might be not, I don't have the energy right now to go into them. But like I always say, whoever Hr ends up with it's pretty much a toss right now (hopefully, we'll have a more balanced view in book six). There's one thing in particular that I took a bit of offense to... > Del replies : >And it's Harry who took > the decision for them both anyway : Hermione didn't have a choice. Before replying to this, I should state that Hermione is my favorite character in the books, so I may get a little bit passionate about this. This sounds a bit chauvinistic, in a way implying that Hermione (the main female character in the book) has no choice but to follow the alpha male in her life, Harry. Maybe if the story was set in the Middle Ages I can see that this might be correct, but is not! Hermione (and Ron) has a choice in every step of the way when it concerns Harry. That's why their relationship is so remarkable! They know they are in danger by being such close companions of the Boy-Who- Lived, but they CHOOSE to remain by their side. Both Ron and Hermione are loyal, right? No point in arguing that... but could they be considered loyal if they didn't CHOOSE to stand with him? Hermione has proven again and again that she makes her own choices. In PS/SS, she chooses to get in trouble after the troll incidents to keep Harry and Ron safe. In PoA, she chooses to risk her friendship with both Harry and Ron in order to keep Harry safe (Firebolt incident). In GoF, she chooses to remain friends with both Harry and Ron when they have a falling out... she chooses to help Harry learn spells in order to help in the tasks... she chooses her date to the ball... and in OoTP is where we see how things in Hr life are her choice: she chooses to go to Grimmauld Place on Christmas (and forgoes spending time with her parents to do so), she chooses to be there for Harry even when he pushes her away, she chooses to bring up the idea for the DA (God bless her for that), she chooses to risk Angry!Harry by trying to stop him and make him listen to reason about Sirius at DOM vision, she chooses to go into the Forbidden Forest to stop Umbridge (in here, Harry was indeed HER follower), AND she chooses to go to the MoM for the final battle (even when Harry in more than one ocassion tells her to stay behind). I think that by implying that Hermione didn't have a choice in the matter, you are taking merit away from what very well could be the most important female in the story. Anasazi From v-tregan at microsoft.com Thu Jun 24 08:59:40 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan (Intl Vendor)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:59:40 +0100 Subject: Neville's skill at herbology (was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum) Message-ID: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15C1EFDD@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102675 Hi All, hettiebe says in 102610: >>> I can't help feeling that Neville's sole talent, herbology, is going to come in here somewhere. It's obviously being kept up in the story for some reason. So it might be a clue or anagram of a plant or process of which we know nothing as yet. <<< Kneasy says in 102232: >>> Herbology, he's OK. But is Herbology magic? No spells, no potions, no wand waving. And Neville does well. <<< Now Dumbledad (me): Do we know this? The Lexicon certainly agrees with you: "He is, however, particularly adept at Herbology." http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/longbottom.html#Neville http://tinyurl.com/yw9qt But what is the Canon? The bits I remember are from GoF: >>> Hermione's hand flew into the air again and so, to Harry's slight surprise, did Neville's. The only class in which Neville usually volunteered information was Herbology which was easily his best subject. Neville looked surprised at his own daring. <<< >>> "Apparently, Professor Sprout told Professor Moody I'm really good at Herbology," Neville said. There was a faint note of pride in his voice that Harry had rarely heard there before. "He thought I'd like this." <<< And from OotP: >>> Harry knew that Neville's favourite subject was Herbology but for the life of him he could not see what he would want with this stunted little plant. <<< Does this actually mean Neville's good at herbology? We know it's his best subject and the one he's most eager during. But Harry doesn't mention whether he gets the answers right. The only person who says he's good is Mad Eye Barty, and if he was my sole defence witness I'd want a very very good lawyer! I may be being too picky - my wife Kate sometimes chastises me for being Inspector Logic ;-) Cheers, Dumbledad. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 09:19:59 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:19:59 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's skill at herbology (was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum) In-Reply-To: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15C1EFDD@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <40DB295F.7533.76BDFE9@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102676 On 24 Jun 2004 at 9:59, Tim Regan (Intl Vendor) wrote: > Does this actually mean Neville's good at herbology? We know it's his > best subject and the one he's most eager during. But Harry doesn't > mention whether he gets the answers right. The only person who says he's > good is Mad Eye Barty, and if he was my sole defence witness I'd want a > very very good lawyer! "Harry had almost forgotten that the exam results were still to come, but come they did. To their great surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks; Hermione, of course, had the best grades of the first years. Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for his abysmal Potions one. They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, might be thrown out, but he had passed, too. It was a shame, but as Ron said, you couldn't have everything in life." (PS, p.222) So we have an indication that Neville at least got a good mark in Herbology in first year. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 09:56:08 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:56:08 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102677 vmonte wrote: >>>>And I believe that the way he treats Hermione has something to do with her heritage. Or does he hate her because she is a know-it-all? No offense, good teachers love this kind of student because they encourage the rest of the students to also excell.<<<< Ava replied: >>>Not necessarily. (That is, good teachers don't always love this kind of student, & this kind of student doesn't always encourage others to learn. If little Janie is always shouting out the correct answer, her classmate Joe Shlunk may feel too intimidated to contribute. Or he may wonder why he should bother, when Janie is always ready to share. Now, a truly thought-provoking answer to a question is usually appreciated, & THAT may stimulate others to add their 2 cents, but that's a different issue.<<< Alla wrote: >>I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy enough to raise my hand all the time. I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I indeed raised my hand. << HunterGreen (who wrote a rather nice reply to all this, and then it was eaten by her computer and is now begrudgingly trying to re-write it): I know it happened to me a few times in class, more in a "please give someone else a chance to answer a question". Yes, it was never as malicious as Snape, but then again, I never spoke out of turn either (I typically just got bored and tuned out the teacher if I wasn't called on). Getting all students involved in a class can be hard with one student dominating everything. Lupin is aware of this, you can see it in the boggart lesson, when he lets Hermione answer a question (the first one), but then ignores her after that (like Snape often does), but unlike Snape, he turns to another student (in that case Harry) to get the question answered. If Snape doesn't have anyone else but Hermione answer a question, he doesn't bother to coax one out of anyone else. I think Snape intends to run his class in a more "lecture" format, but needs to ask questions to get his dose of superiority first. Actually, Snape used to confuse me a little bit. Judging by his little speech during the first potions class in PS/SS he doesn't seem like the type of teacher who wants to give every student a chance to answer. You'd think he'd be delighted with a class full of Hermiones: students who study hard, follow directs, and do their homework. But despite what he says, I think what he values most is power and control. This (IMO) has a lot to do with his adolesence experiences with James & Sirius, with being disrespected and powerless (*especially when it comes to Harry--its no mystery why he wants Harry to call him "sir" during occulmency lessons and why Dumbledore impresses the *Professor* Snape title on him, that title means something to Snape). I think Snape quite enjoys walking around the classroom telling his students how unintelligent they are, and when one of them knows the answer, it punctures that. So he ignores Hermione. That's why he's so furious when she speaks *anyway* (I have a hard time feeling too bad for Hermione in this situation, she should know not to speak out of turn in Snape's class, even if he *should* be calling on her). If only for his own sake, Snape should really consider a different career. BUT as long as students are learning and he's not damaging anyone, I don't see why he HAS to stop being a teacher or change his methods. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 10:32:56 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040624103256.17384.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102678 Janet Anderson wrote:"Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" said: >A wizard who is an ethical person would use Legilimency in an ethical >way. A wizard who is not an ethical person (as in my previous post, I >believe that wizards raise their children to believe that ethics are >optional) will use Legilimency however he/she wants. We're heard of >Ministry regulation of Animagic and Apparation, but not of Legilimency I disagree. I think that as in the real world, ethical wizards generally raise their children to be ethical, unethical wizards generally raise their children to be just like them, and every once in awhile a child rebels one way or the other (Mrs. Black ended up with Sirius; the Weasleys, it appears, ended up with Percy.) It isn't always obvious. Crouch Sr. would probably be horrified at the suggestion that Crouch Jr. was like him, but they both seem to hold the idea that The End Justifies The Means -- it just came out a little different in Junior than in Senior. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ >From ?will you?? to ?I do,? MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting Married. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married I like the comment on the Crouch family. Both were cruel. Crouch Sr, as Sirius says in GoF,( I have the book next to me, but not an English edition ), fought evil with evil. Crouch Jr. directed his cruelty in a different way. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 11:23:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:23:30 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102679 > > vmonte responds: > > OOPS! I thought that Hermione got the polyjuice potion from one of > her Transfiguration class books. > > Where did she learn how to overcome the devil's snare? > Potioncat: Actually, Snape mentioned Polyjuice in a lesson and Hermione went looking for the instructions in the restricted section (a very Slytherin thing to do, if you ask me.) And you're right, the Devil's Snare was from herbology....I would think. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 11:38:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:38:35 -0000 Subject: Neville's skill at herbology (was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum) In-Reply-To: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15C1EFDD@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102680 Dumbledad: > > Does this actually mean Neville's good at herbology? We know it's his > best subject and the one he's most eager during. But Harry doesn't > mention whether he gets the answers right. The only person who says he's > good is Mad Eye Barty, and if he was my sole defence witness I'd want a > very very good lawyer! > Potioncat: I think it's in SS/PS where we're told Neville's good marks in Herbology balanced out his bad ones in Potions. (Sorry, cannot check it myself at the moment. But it would be at the end of the book.) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jun 24 11:48:42 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:48:42 -0000 Subject: Neville again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102681 Kneasy said : > > > > A short digression or two. Neville himself says that up until he > > > > was eight he was thought to be "all Muggle." Not Squib - Muggle. Del replies : > Sorry guys, but I DO think it's a kind of Flint. We weren't introduced > to the concept of Squibs until the second book, CoS. In the first book > we had lots of information to digest in the first chapters, and I > guess JKR just didn't want to add the unnecssary complexity of using > the word Squib. So she used Muggle instead. But Neville *can't* be > Muggle at all : he's a pure-blood, we've been told so repeatedly. > And remember also that when PS/SS was published, nobody knew if the > following books would ever be published. So why introduce a concept > (Squibs) that wouldn't be used anywhere else in the book ? I kind of agree with Del on this, although I don't think I'd call it a Flint. I'm not sure that I agree with the point about the following books; I think it's clear that JKR planned a series from the outset and whether or not she knew they'd all be published wouldn't necessarily stop her using a term she wanted to (it would have taken very little extra explanation. Although *we're* not introduced to the idea, I can't believe that JKR hadn't already decided that Filch was a Squib. Reserving the word for CoS increased the effectiveness of the Filch/ Kwikspell storyline which I asume she had sketched out. Or perhaps, she *hadn't* thought of the term to begin with and simply used 'Muggle' to mean 'non-magical', rather than it having the connotations of being from a non-wizarding blood line. JKR is arguably a little vague with some of these terms, hence the eternal discussion of exactly what a half blood is. In any case, I cannot believe that the usage of the word is significant. What I do feel confident of is that JKR never expected anyone to dissect and analyse her works in the way that we do. There's nothing wrong with doing it, but if we do, we must be prepared to find ourselves analysing and imputing meaning to things that were never intended to be subject to such scrutiny or to carry the meanings that we might assign to them. Kneasy > No, it's only been with the magical stuff that Neville has had > difficulties. > Herbology, he's OK. But is Herbology magic? No spells, no potions, no > wand waving. And Neville does well. The rest seems to be a bit of a > struggle. I sometimes wonder if JKR might cheat a bit on her > definitions (of what is magical or not) and Neville might be the one > who 'becomes magical' later in life than usual. Whatever. Is Herbology magic? Is Potions magic? I know that others disagree, but given that thereis no foolish wand waving concerned, I'd always hoped that with proper tuition I *might* be able to make a decent potion. Both Herbology and Potions seem more concerned with arcane knowlewdge and the understanding of properties than with inherent "magical" abilities, but there again that is looking at things from a 21st century scientific/rational approach; for someone like Newton, the mechanics of the universe, alchemy, natural magic, mysticism, etc., were all different aspects of "philosophy". But Neville shows evidence of some quite strong magical ability. His problem with the broomstick in their first flying lesson is not that he doesn't have enough magic to *fly* - the broomstick responds too enthusiastically. What he cannot do is *control* his magic. Ditto, I think some of his problems in Potions, melting cauldrons and the like. ~Eloise From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 12:56:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:56:32 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102682 HunterGreen wrote: As for Snape's harping making it hard to do potions, maybe its just the other way around: Snape's constant pushing (and criticizing) "toughened" Harry up, making doing potions in Snape's absense comparatively easier. As in, if he'd had a kindhearted potions teacher, doing potions on his own could be harder without the encouragement(of course, the kindhearted teacher might have been better at building confidence--but the end result is the same). vmonte responds: I don't think that these examples of Snape's teaching style are a good sign of his teaching methods. I think that he is a poor teacher. Intimidation, threats, sarcasm, hostility, making fun of students, and his rejection of even the students that are prepared for class, are signs of a poor teacher. I think that Dumbledore has, however, placed Snape in the school for a specific reason. HE is the one that is "toughening" up the children. He is training them to be able to deal with this kind of person, and negative situations. He may also be trying to get the kids to understand something about Snape (and vice versa). If book 6 is when Harry will begin to start learning how to control his emotions, he may start to be able to distance himself from Snape's abuse, and see him for what he really is. He may also learn how to behave around Snape so that he can get the relationship that is necessary for the war that is to come. Unfortunately, Harry is going to have to do all of the work in this relationship. vivian From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 11:43:55 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screaming Portrait (Re: Elf Beheading) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040624114355.8901.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102683 tmar78 at yahoo.com writes: > Maybe they could've sent Kreacher to the Malfoy's > w/ the portrait w/ orders never to come back. I wonder how > the Malfoys would've reacted to having that portrait scream > constantly? :) Griffin782002: Oh! Brilliant idea. I would like to find out that the portait kept screaming in the Malfoy mansion. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 13:17:38 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:17:38 -0000 Subject: Screaming Portrait (Re: Elf Beheading) In-Reply-To: <20040624114355.8901.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." wrote: > tmar78 at y... writes: > > Maybe they could've sent Kreacher to the Malfoy's > > w/ the portrait w/ orders never to come back. I wonder how > > the Malfoys would've reacted to having that portrait scream > > constantly? :) > > > Griffin782002: > Oh! Brilliant idea. I would like to find out that the portait > kept screaming in the Malfoy mansion. I dont think the portrait would keep screaming because the Malfoy's are a part of the Black family that she is not ashamed of. They are also pureblood wizards. Jacqui From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 13:17:53 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:17:53 -0000 Subject: Screaming Portrait (Re: Elf Beheading) In-Reply-To: <20040624114355.8901.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102685 > tmar78 at y... writes: > > Maybe they could've sent Kreacher to the Malfoy's > > w/ the portrait w/ orders never to come back. I wonder how > > the Malfoys would've reacted to having that portrait scream > > constantly? :) > > > Griffin782002: > Oh! Brilliant idea. I would like to find out that the portait > kept screaming in the Malfoy mansion. Alice: I would have thought it would be a great idea to have a screaming portrait of Sirius in the Malfoy Mansion, stuck to the wall permanently... :) He could even spy. Apologies to SAD DENIAL and all Sirius-fans who think this an outrageous idea... Love, Alice From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jun 24 13:23:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:23:36 -0000 Subject: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency / In-Reply-To: <20040624103256.17384.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." wrote: > > I disagree. I think that as in the real world, ethical wizards generally > raise their children to be ethical, unethical wizards generally raise their > children to be just like them, and every once in awhile a child rebels one > way or the other (Mrs. Black ended up with Sirius; the Weasleys, it appears, > ended up with Percy.) > > It isn't always obvious. Crouch Sr. would probably be horrified at the > suggestion that Crouch Jr. was like him, but they both seem to hold the idea > that The End Justifies The Means -- it just came out a little different in > Junior than in Senior. > This could raise all sorts of hairy issues. For example - are the ethics of the WW the same as ours? It could be argued that they're not - as evidenced by the (assumed) acceptance of Snape's treatment of his students and the existence of House Elves (though like many I suspect that we're missing key pieces of information). There are some ethical rules. The use of the Unforgivable Curses are one - but they only apply when the curses are aimed at another human; presumably Elves, Goblins, Centaurs and Giants don't count. (Now why this limitation? Is this another clue to future events? Highly likely IMO.) Would you consider that DD's treatment of Harry has been ethical? Dumping him on a family that can't stand him, keeping him in ignorance for years, even after he is brought back into the WW. It's true that he claims this was for Harry's own good, so that's OK then. Until you remember what DD is about - the destruction of Voldy - and Harry is the way to do it. Harry is what circumstances have made him and most of those circumstances have been engineered by DD. There's an argument for believing that DD had a good idea before the event that the Godric's Hollow disaster was a strong possibility but did nothing to prevent it. So we have Weapon!Harry, forged by DD to further his 'plan'. Isn't that a case of the ends justifying the means too? Probably yes; that's perhaps why DD seems to suffer such agonies of remorse occasionally. Even in the Real World some think ethics can be modified in exceptional circumstances - a war, for example, when the ultimate prize is quite literally life or death. But this isn't the Real World we're talking about, it's a make-believe society. And I for one am quite happy if they play by different rules. In fact, it makes it all that much more interesting; I can say "Ooh! That's nasty!" with barely supressed glee and not be bothered by comparisons with the standards of my own society. A half-way decent work of fiction (especially fantasy) expects you to accept the precepts laid down by the author. If you don't, either the book doesn't work or you're in the wrong genre. Trying to impose other standards would be like putting your shoes on the wrong feet - they don't fit and you don't feel comfortable. Better to relish the differences IMO. Kneasy From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 13:38:16 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:38:16 -0000 Subject: Are house-elves _slaves,_ as such? In-Reply-To: <003901c45950$6a1c1ea0$4f570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I was thinking about house-elves (WAAAY too much time on my hands-- -not > enough to read! Write, JKR, write!) and it occurred to me that house-elves' > servitude is not really slavery _eo nomine._ > > Apparently they are bound to a particular place, or house, instead of being > _owned_ by a master. While a master can free them by presenting them with > clothes, they don't seem to be able to be bought and sold, as they would be > were they true slaves. Meri now: I would say that house elves seem to count as part of the house they serve. So that makes them a piece of property or chatell. If a WW family bought an old school manor, it would certainly come with the anemnities: breakfast nook, broom cupboard, owelry and house elf. Whether or not house elves can be "sold seperately" is yet to be seen. Meri - who really really really wants that WW Encyclopedia that JKR promised after book seven... From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 13:39:41 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:39:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts / Hermione & parents / Message-ID: <4f.3fed1064.2e0c339d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102688 In a message dated 06/23/2004 6:53:16 PM Central Daylight Time, drednort at alphalink.com.au writes: > We don't know precisely when Hermione goes to Grimmauld Place - but > the absolute latest possible date is the 2nd August 1995, and the > impression I get reading OotP is she has been there much longer - > since about a week after she got back from school - say July 10th, > 1995. In her World Book Day Chat JKR makes a reference that might imply that Hermione visited Viktor for a few days. renata: What happened between hermiona [sic] and viktor krum during the summer? JKR: Ron would like to know that, too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 13:46:02 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:46:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102689 I can't help feeling that Neville's sole talent, herbology, is going to come in here somewhere. It's obviously being kept up in the story for some reason. So it might be a clue or anagram of a plant or process of which we know nothing as yet. "hettiebe" I think Neville will try to come up with something to cure his parents and maybe become a healer! Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 13:52:43 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:52:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book?? Message-ID: <163.31283bea.2e0c36ab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102690 In a message dated 06/21/2004 3:31:59 AM Central Daylight Time, AntaresCheryl at aol.com writes: > JK Rowling said that some of the happenings in books 6 and 7 were > foreshadowed in the POA movie, and I had the impression that it was not > intentional, but > coincidental. Harry saw Sirius in the crystal ball in the POA and I'm > thinking > that is going to be one of the plot points in the next book. JK has planned > for Harry and Sirius to be able to contact each other in a similiar fashion. > > > Cheryl H > > I agree with you. I was rereading her answers in the WBD chat and there were a few things said that seemed to point to this. Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JKR: Ooooo good question. There's your answer. (I think that the second mirror will become a safe way for Harry to communicate with the OOTP .. or Perhaps Ron or Hermione will be the receiptent of it. SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in? JKR: I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself. Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JKR: I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. Excepting the first comment I think that these answers point to Sirius being able to contact Harry. Quite possibly via a crystal ball. (I just can't see Harry getting out of Trelawney's class too easily) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 13:55:44 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:55:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Hermione & Ron / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102691 And anyway, the strongest reason I don't want to see Harry with Hermione is because Harry is not nice enough to Hermione. 1. In OoP, he shouts at her at least 3 times even though she's in the right (once for not having written in more details to him over the holidays, once because he thinks her DA idea is ludicrous, and once because she refuses to admit right away that he's truly seen Sirius being tortured). And she's too scared to fight back, which is not a sign of a good healthy relationship. 2. Even when he doesn't shout, he's way too often scaring Hermione into agreeing with him, even when he's wrong, like when he forces her to say that Hagrid is a good teacher. I mean, what kind of friend glowers at you to force you to say what they want !? How much respect does Harry have for Hermione if he won't let her contradict him ?? And how much does she *trust* him, if she can't get herself to speak her mind ? She's clearly afraid of how he might react at those times, and I don't think that fear can be a component of a loving relationship. That wouldn't bode well for any romantic relationship they might develop : Hermione having to agree to whatever Harry feels is important... It's bordering on emotional abuse IMO. 3. More generally, he doesn't listen much to her counsel, he doesn't care much about what interests her, and so on. I love Hermione, and I just don't see what *she* would get out of a relationship with Harry... other than troubles, that is ! Not that a relationship with Ron would be heaven, mind you. The way they are always fighting... But at least, Hermione always feels *free* to be *herself* with Ron, she nevers cowers into agreeing with him. Their relationship might be much bumpier than her relationship with Harry, but in my opinion it's MUCH healthier : neither controls the other. Del, who thinks one of the reasons Ginny, Neville and Luna had to go to the DoM could be the Veil : all three of them, along with Harry, were entranced by it. Gina responding : Sorry, but if you are saying Hermione doesn't need to be with Harry because he is not nice to her and doesn't let her have an opinion - you have just contradicted yourself! Hermione does the SAME THING to Ron! Every time he has an idea she either blows it off completely or tells him in one way or another how dumb he sounds where on the other hand she takes everything Harry says into consideration. So if what you say is true R/Hr can NEVER be together because Hermione does not respect his ideas or intelligence at all and is not very nice in expressing it. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 14:11:14 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:11:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102692 There are some websites that make anagrams http://www.anagramsite.com/cgi-bin/getanagram.cgi It's much neater comming from the site... I also typed in Droobles Best Blowing Gum... Both gave me over 500 anagrams. Have fun! Gina now: The trouble is if you type in Tom Marvolo Riddle you do not get I am lord voldemort in the results. Gina - who wishes it was fool proof! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 14:22:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:22:46 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > > Geoff: > > This is certainly supported by canon. > [quote snipped] > > (GOF "Veritaserum" p.597 UK edition) > > This, as Crouch's description shows later, was before Moody was > > overcome and Crouch Jr. started using the Polyjuice Potion. So > > Crouch Snr. was under the Inmperius Curse well before the World Cup > > and no one noticed any difference. Phil: > Sorry, Geoff, but you've recalled wrongly. > > This was *after* the QWC because Winky had already been dismissed and > it was just the 2 Bartys in the house. Geoff: Actually, I haven't recalled wrongly because I was extrapolating from the canon text. What I have done is that I have interpreted wrongly. In a mental slip, I mixed up the World Cup with the Triwizard Tournament. What I /meant/ to say above was "So Crouch Snr. was under the Imperius Curse well before the /Triwizard Tournament/ and no one noticed any difference." Mea culpa. A couple of bits of canon which show that, although he appeared to be showing some signs of strain, he was still very much himself.... '"Dumbledore, you know perfectly well you did not make a mistake!" said Professor McGonagall angrily. "Really, what nonsense! Harry could not have crossed the line himself and as Professor Dumbledore believes that he did not persuade an older student to do it for him, I'm sure that should be good enough for everybody else!" She shot a very angry look at Professor Snape. "Mr. Crouch.... Mr. Bagman," said Karkaroff, his voice unctuous once more, "you are our - er - objective judges. Surely you will agree hat this is most irregular?" BAgman wiped his round, boyish face with his handkerchief and looked at Mr.Crouch who was standing outside the circle of the firelight, his face half-hidden in shadow. He looked slightly eerie, the half darkness makibg him look much older, giving him an almost skull-like appearance. When he spoke, however, it was in his usual curt voice. "We must follow the rules and the rules state clearly that those people whose names come out of the Goblet of Fire are bound to compete in the Tournament."' (OOTP "The Four Champions" p.243 UK edition) '!Well, shall we crack on, then?" he (Bagman) said, rubbing his hands together and smiling around the room. "Got to give our champions their instructions, haven't we? Barty, want to do the honours?" Mr.Crouch seemed to come out of a deep reverie. "Yes," he said, "instructions. Yes.... the first task...." He moved forwards into the firelight. Close to, Harry thought he looked ill. There were dark shadows beneath his eyes and a thin, papery look about his wrinkled skin that had not been there at the Quidditch World Cup. "The first task is designed to test your daring," he told Harry, Cedric, Fleur and Krum, "so we are not going to be telling you what it is. Courage in the face of the unknown is an important quality in a wizard...very important..."' (Same chapter p.246) 'You'll come and have a drink before you go, at least?" said Dumbledore. "Come on Barty, I'm staying!" said Bagman brightly. "It's all happening at Hogwarts now, you know, much more excitigng here than at the office!" "I think not, Ludo," said Crouch, with a touch of hie old impatience. (Same chapter p.247) So he seems to possess the ability to present the data about the Tournament and is as acerbic as usual although both Harry and Dumbledore seem to notice that he is looking ill. I think my basic hypothesis that people behave normally undeer the Imperius Curse seems to be valid. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 14:25:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:25:51 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102694 Gina wrote: > I think Neville will try to come up with something to cure his parents and > maybe become a healer! > Potioncat: Yes, I think so too. Which means another Gryffindor needs an Outstanding on Potions OWLS.....I'll bet at this very moment Minerva is begging Albus to move Severus into DADA! ....or to Bulgaria. Potioncat From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 14:29:25 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:29:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Hermione & Ron / Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102695 * Del replies : > ... Except when she's with Ron, as Prefects for example. That's a > pretty big clue for R/H, don't you think ? Anasazi replies: Oh, spending time with your favorite guy alone during Prefect duty is a very big clue. I think Hermione agrees with you too... now, let us consult canon and look at the moment Hermione heard the news that there was a another Prefect in Grimmauld Place. "Hermione came tearing into the room, her cheeks flushed and her hair flying. There was an envelope in her hand. 'Did you - did you get -?' She spotted the badge in Harry's hand and let out a shriek.'I knew it!' she said excitedly, brandishing her letter. 'Me too, Harry, me too!' 'No,' said Harry quickly, pushing the badge back into Ron's hand. 'It's Ron,not me.' 'It - what? i-' 'Ron's prefect, not me,' Harry said. 'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But ... are you sure? I mean -' Now, if Hermione wanted some alone time with her boy toy Ron, why wouldn't she wish for Ron to get the badge? See how she says "I knew it!" as if she had dreamed of sharing the position with Harry. And te "But... are you sure?" only makes things worse. And remember, this is not my interpretation... THIS IS CANON. Anasazi Gina now: * Great post Anasazi! I did not even think about that aspect. What I do think about a lot is how everyone talks about Harry being a great wizard like his father and how Lily was SUCH a bright witch - well who keeps getting tagged as the brightest witch of her age? It has been stated over and over and what's more IMO is when Harry went down stairs he was really excited/relieved when he was told that Lupin NOT James was a prefect! So I think that throws out the happy prefect theory because if you think about it James, Lily, and Lupin COULD be the same scenario. Lupin prefect with Lily but Lily ending up with James the troublemaker. * Gina - who does not really mind who Hermione ends up with only thinks it points more to Harry than Ron. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 14:30:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:30:46 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > There are some websites that make anagrams > > http://www.anagramsite.com/cgi-bin/getanagram.cgi > > > It's much neater comming from the site... > > I also typed in Droobles Best Blowing Gum... Both gave me over 500 > anagrams. > > Have fun! > Gina: T he trouble is if you type in Tom Marvolo Riddle you do not get I > am lord voldemort in the results. Geoff: Ah, now that's what I did to start with. But of course, Voldemort is not a word in the program's vocabulary. If it's the same anagram program I was using, you could specify that certain words had to appear. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 14:39:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:39:24 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102697 Just for fun, I thought I'd remind you of an anagram that always makes me laugh...it came up when we had a tread on Perseus Evans (Severus Snape) Draco Malfoy = Lord of a YMCA Potioncat (who now has the YMCA song in her head!) From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 14:45:28 2004 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:45:28 -0000 Subject: A SHIP thought or two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102698 Brian wrote: >Now I've been an R/H SHIPper from the start, but my tendency might >be a case of movie contamination. Also, though, for some reason I >want Ron to "get the girl." I can't even explain why. For some >reason, Ron evokes more pathos from me than Harry. I wonder if >anyone else feels that way? Maybe it's just the simple fact that >Ron has demonstrated an interest, so it's easy to feel for him. Harry, on the other hand, has been relatively detached regarding Hermione. Maybe it's that I like the way Ron and Hermione seem to keep each other in check. > > For you H/H-ers out there, I will say this: In OOTP, Hermione and > Harry develop *something*. I don't know if it is a precursor to > romantic involvement, but they definitely develop an understanding > that, for the moment, excludes Ron. JKR begins this early in OOTP > when Harry and Hermione notice Malfoy's comment about "dogging." > Rowling seems to make quite a point of mentioning that Ron noticed > noticed nothing (the description merited its own line in my American > edition). Harry and Hermione become "in tune" with each other in > OOTP, but I'm not sure what it means. Ron continues to demonstrate > an obliviousness. Ron is the most realistically portrayed adolescent > of the three. He is about "on schedule" as far as I can tell. > Hermione and Harry as advancing a bit further. We'll have to see how > it all ends up! > > Brian B. If you feel that Harry is detached from Hermione then how is it possible for you to see that they have developed "something." Wouldn't they have grown closer than they were before? Thus, Harry isn't detached from Hermione? ~Grace From allisonotto at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 14:27:38 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:27:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102699 I also think there is some evidence that when Hermione is with her parents, they seem to have an affectionate relationship (she does "gently" disengage from her mother at the end of OoP). However, I also think there are really good explanations for why she would be eager to spend time at school or with Ron and Harry during the holidays. First of all, look at how upset Harry gets when cut off from reliable news of the wizarding world. Hermione might (I think she does) get the Daily Prophet at home, but she already knows it doesn't tell the whole truth. Plus, neither Ron nor Harry is a terribly reliable correspondent. I have a hard time believing Hermione could go through the events of any of the books, but especially Goblet of Fire, and then be able to just go home and concentrate on spending time with her parents (who, btw, probably work all day even on her vacations) while never knowing if Voldemort is active or whether one or the other of her best friends might be in danger. (on a personal note, I've been home from school for rare vacations during times when my parents were working, and we didn't exactly have a lot of time to hang out when they were gone most of the day). It's probably just as hard, or near impossible, for her to go off for a skiing holiday when her mind is on her friends who had to run from school in the middle of the night. She has no reason (yet) to believe anything will happen to her parents; she does have reason to worry about Harry and the Weasleys. I think, as involved as Hermione has been in various events - which, since the end of PoA, remain unresolved because Peter has escaped and Sirius is still a fugitive - it must be very difficult for her to take a long break and concentrate on her family who don't understand what's been happening to her. This doesn't mean she doesn't like them, it just means she has things weighing on her mind that distract her. PS - presumably, like Dean, she doesn't tell her parents about her near-death experiences because she doesn't want them to worry over her or forbid her from going back to school. The fact that they're out of the loop doesn't mean they don't talk about other things. I'm guessing there are plenty of things Ron hasn't told Molly - for example, I'd be very surprised if she knew the whole story about him being out on the grounds shackled to a werewolf in PoA. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 24 15:10:52 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:10:52 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102700 > Mandy wrote: > It depends on where the expectation lies. There are so many twists > one could take with this sub plot. Sure it's obvious, perhaps too > obvious as you say, that Ron is a target for the imperio, but what if > JKR has Ron, or Hermione, acting under the imperio through-out book > 6, but she doesn't let us know until half way through book 7? > Fuelling untold amounts of website speculation during the intervening > years. Resulting in many loud 'Oh my God, not Ron!' Or if JKR has > Ron behaving in such an obnoxious way that we all scream 'Imperio', > but in fact it turns out he just got fed up with playing 2nd fiddle > to Harry all the time. Not likely, I know, but there a few different > twists that Jo can put on the tale to keep us in the dark. She's > managed to fool us on many other occasions. > > Cheers Mandy boyd: While I think that Kneasy's on to something here, I could also see Imperio used as a red herring throughout book 6. One character suspected of being imperio'd, another suspected of being the imperio'er, both wrong and distracting us from the *real* story as usual. Example--"And Harry," Hermione ventured, "it might be best not to tell Ron where we're going." "Because we're going to kiss?" blurted Harry, expectantly. "Um, Hermione, are you all right? You seem very flushed." "I'm fine, you grotesquely tactless git. We're going to Gringott's to see your vault, remember? And what I mean is I think Snape has cast an Imperio on Ron! Why else would he be suddenly such a good student?" "Does this mean we're not going to kiss? And, say, what's this trail of gum wrappers doing here! Thanks to you and your SPEW, Hermione, the house elves never clean this place anytmore." "Speak of the devil, there's Winky! If I weren't so preoccupied with shipping here I'd wonder why she's eavesdropping on us and waving a wand at Professor McGonagall all the time." "Yes, and I'd wonder how I'm going to kill Voldemort. But shipping is so fun! Can we kiss now?" Ah, the fun and hijinx that could be had.... From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 15:17:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:17:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's summer in the 6th book?? In-Reply-To: <163.31283bea.2e0c36ab@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102701 Melissa wrote: Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JKR: Ooooo good question. There's your answer. (I think that the second mirror will become a safe way for Harry to communicate with the OOTP .. or Perhaps Ron or Hermione will be the receiptent of it. SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in? JKR: I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself. Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JKR: I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. Excepting the first comment I think that these answers point to Sirius being able to contact Harry. Quite possibly via a crystal ball. (I just can't see Harry getting out of Trelawney's class too easily) vmonte responds: I just had a thought. Maybe the mirror WILL work for Harry to speak to Sirius. But maybe he is going to reach the Sirius of the past. Who is to say that the mirror doesn't somehow cross time-line boundaries. If Sirius was using this mirror to comunicate with James in the past, then maybe it will surprisingly contact the Sirius and James of the past. This interaction with the Harry of the future may be what forces James to grow up and become a more responsible person. It also does not mean that Harry will be able to save his parents from death. There is a reason why we don't know all the facts about Godric's Hollow. Harry is not going to be able to stop what happened in the past if he doesn't know all the facts. Perhaps the explosion at GH was some kind of cover-up. For example, Harry may think that his parents were killed at GH but they may have been killed somewhere else all together. (Harry's parents may have decided not to trust anyone, and gone somewhere else.) I'm not saying this is what I think happened, just offering up another scenario for discussion. Just a thought... vivian From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 24 15:20:01 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:20:01 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <36.5b709ce8.2e0b65b6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102702 > Boyd wrote: > Don't count out the big bangyness of *Krum* (who transfers to > Hogwarts, becomes captain of the Gryf quiddich team and kicks > Ron off, romances Hermione to try to lure her and Harry to their > dooms, sets up Good!Snape for the fall, and then turns out to be GoodButImperio'd!Krum). > And then Christie replied: > The only problem with this is: Isn't Krum 4 years older or so? So wouldn't > he have already left school? However, he COULD come back and take Madame > Hooch's place... I am thinking Dean or Seamus, someone along those lines though, if anyone is to be under the curse. Sorry, I clearly forgot to engage my brain on that one. The only way Krum's at Hogwarts is as some kind of teacher or if there's some unusual Quiddich tourney there. Just trying to throw a wrench in the shippers' exhaust pipes! From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 15:24:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:24:01 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102703 Gina now: The trouble is if you type in Tom Marvolo Riddle you do not get I am lord voldemort in the results. Gina - who wishes it was fool proof! vmonte: I know. For instance you can get Ron Bilus and Nicolas Flamel from Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. But then you have a lot of extra letters that make nothing that makes sense. Besides DD's name is so long you can practically make it say anthing. I think "I am the walrus" is also in there. Just kidding, vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 24 15:48:37 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:48:37 -0000 Subject: names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102704 x> > vmonte: (I think) > > I know. For instance you can get Ron Bilus and Nicolas Flamel > from Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. But then you have a > lot of extra letters that make nothing that makes sense. > Potioncat: I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 given names? From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 15:46:51 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:46:51 -0000 Subject: Chapter 20 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > Tom's mother wasn't around for him. It says in COS in Chap 13: > [quote snipped] > > So, unless he was able to get more information about her life and > > lineage, which I guess he did, otherwise he wouldn't know what her > > thoughts were on pure-blood vs non-pure-blood. > > It does raise the question of how he ever discovered that he was > descended from Salazar Slytherin. > > Makes you wonder which wizard family Tom Riddle's Mother belonged to, > and whether there are more of *his* family to appear! > -- > Phil These posts have raised other questions for me. 1. Given that Tom Riddle was raised in a muggle orphanage, from whom did he receive permission to attend Hogwarts School of *Witchcraft and Wizardry*? 2. If this permission came from the orphanage, how was he treated when he was home in the summers? 3. If it did not come from the orphanage, from whom? A member of his mother's family, perhaps? 4. If this is the case, why did he stay in the orphanage? 5. Could these be clues to his anger and misanthropy? Julie From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 16:02:00 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:02:00 -0000 Subject: names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > x> > > vmonte: (I think) > > > > I know. For instance you can get Ron Bilus and Nicolas Flamel > > from Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. But then you have a > > lot of extra letters that make nothing that makes sense. > > > > Potioncat: > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > given names? I dont really think there is any particular reason. It just depends on what your parents want to name you. I know this is totally off subject, but take a look at Kiefer Sutherland...this is his birth name: Kiefer William Frederick Dempsey George Rufus Sutherland Jacqui -Who cant believe she knows that :P From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 16:06:03 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:03 -0000 Subject: The Longbottoms-a theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102707 Steve wrote: >Frank and Alice Longbottom were Auror, the most highly trained and >skilled members of Magical Law Enforcement, and more importantly, >they were member of The Order of the Phoenix, and good and trusted >friends of Dumbledore. AND, they had a son the same age as Harry. >That seems to meet all the requirements of a safe and trusted place, >as well as safe and trusted people with which Harry could stay until >Dumbledore made arrangements to place Harry with the Dursleys. Leah: I like it. Also, I assume that as until the previous day the prophecy could have applied equally to Harry or Neville, the Longbottoms were also living under the Fidelius charm (and my thought is that Dumbledore was their Secret Keeper- one possible reason why Harry not Neville ended up as the One). This would make their house exceptionally safe and explain why no one else notice where Harry had gone. Leah From thrennish at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 16:15:59 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:15:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ee818a80406240915273009f6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102708 > Potioncat: > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > given names? Thren: It depends on a lot of things. A couple planning on only one child might give him/her all the names they like, or it could be a matter of relatives being disgruntled that they're not all included. Also, it seems like the higher up the old world social ladder you are, the more names you've got. ;) (This could tie in with the 'Percival' thing, which wasn't used among the lower classes.) -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jun 24 16:37:59 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:37:59 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I would agree with you, but again I don't remember any proof that > Hogwarts can deny admission to fully magical child from England. > But they can expel students, for a great variety of reasons, it seems. The threat of expulsion seems to be very much on the students' minds, especially Hermione's. If a student is expelled from the ONLY wizarding school in England, isn't that tantamount to a right to deny an education to children? What happens to kids who are expelled? I guess Hagrid is an example - there doesn't seem to be any safety net for people who don't comply with the conditions at Hogwarts. Wanda From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 17:05:51 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: <1088086424.11716.6970.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040624170551.78472.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102710 I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would be the Dursleys. The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because he spends time with his blood related family. So, if Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be to kill the Dursleys? Just a thought... ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 24 17:07:21 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:07:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102711 [Geoff writes]: | This, as Crouch's description shows later, was before Moody was | overcome and Crouch Jr. started using the Polyjuice Potion. So Crouch | Snr. was under the Inmperius Curse well before the World Cup and no | one noticed any difference. [Lee]: I beg to differ, friend. Crouch Senior was imperioed after the World Cup. You might want to re-read that chapter again. After Crouch Junior stole Harry's wand, set off the Dark Mark, got stunned along with Winky but was unnoticed because of the invisibility cloak, then Crouch found him, sacked Winky and took Junior back home. Meanwhile, Voldemort had extracted the whole thing about Moody teaching at Hogwarts, the Tri-Wizard Tournament, etc., and went in the arms of Wormtail to the Crouch house the night before Moody was supposed to go to Hogwarts. Senior was Imperioed and Junior was set free to take over Moody. Hence, the whole incident with the dustbins...Junior, et al, invaded Moody's place, imperioed and stupified him, did the polyjuice thing and the police and MOM were dealing with the now fake moody. That's it in a nutshell, give or take a few minor details. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jun 24 17:11:21 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:11:21 -0000 Subject: More on Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102712 >Ava: And you've never had a teacher or boss like that? Lucky you! Probono: I haven't said that at all. Haven't we all had Snapes, Umbridges, and Trelawneys in our lives? All I've said is I don't find his teaching methods as particularly encouraging. Just because we've all dealt with them doesn't make them right, by golly! But as I think about it, maybe I should clarify that I'm concentrating on Snape's treatment of Harry in particular. Maybe Snape's teaching methods are quite adequate for the rest of the students. Sure he prefers the Slytherins and sure he has targeted some other students on rare occasions, such as Hermione and Neville. I guess if he more or less ignored the rest of the students with the exception of assigning incredibly difficult potions and lots and lots of homework, while simultaneously grading on a uber-strict scale leaving no possibility for error well, I, for one, cannot gripe about that. But Harry is an entirely different story. Snape has a childish grudge against Harry. Hopefully we all can agree on that? It's just something he cannot bring himself to get over. (Hey, nobody's perfect) And Snape has a fragile ego too. Harry threatens this ego. When Harry looks into the pensieve he discovers one of Snape's weaknesses. Has Harry ever uncovered a weakness in Snape until now? I don't think so, but I don't have my books handy. And Snape is scared. It's only after this time that he actually destroys Harry's project. He needs to reassert his dominance, his control. Why is he so afraid of Harry anyway? >> snippitysnipsnip of my original post (Or maybe he'll get lucky, and for some reason there will be a new potions teacher next year? >Ava: And exactly HOW would this help him learn to deal with it? And >furthermore, I thought you just said you really love Snape as a >character. So now you want to get rid of him? Replace him with >somebody nice? This would be an improvement? I think not. Probono: Just to clarify, under no circumstances do I want to off my favorite character! *I* don't want the situation fixed (I like I the way it is). *I* don't want an improvement. And I might add, nor would I like to see Snape suddenly turn into Mr. Nice Guy at the end of book 7. "Oh Harry it was difficult for me, but I did this for your own good." BLECH! But I'm speaking of Harry here, not me. If Snapey-Dear accidentally tripped and squashed his big nose into the front-grill of the Knight bus and remained in St. Mungos for Harry's final 2 years, Harry would personally thank his lucky stars. I, however, and many other readers would be deeply disappointed I think. Don't you? As vmonte said, I think it is okay to appreciate Snape without trying to justify his actions, and I do. Now I'm trying to remember why I posted at all? Oh yeah! I guess I am having a hard time understanding that some people find Snape's methods admirable; even would LIKE to have him as a teacher. Fascinating! Fascinating! But back to the more likely scenario of book 7 with Snape still PotionsMaster As I said before, Snape is an entirely different form of stress that Harry is going to have to overcome if he truly wants to be an Auror. I, for one, am looking forward to how he handles it. From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jun 24 17:26:36 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:26:36 -0000 Subject: Snape uniting the houses? Lucius a good guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102713 Ally wrote: > > > "Is this perhaps some foreshadowing for Snape? Will Albus die and > > Snape take over Hogwarts in the subsequent disarray? Could [Snape] > be the > > one who unites the 4 houses at Hogwarts the way Septimius Severus > > united Rome after a period of civil wars...?" > > ~~I was interested by your theory - however, I'm not sure that Snape > has much of a hold on 'the 4 houses' as you say. I imagine a civil > war between two main groups, and - as of now - the only two groups > who seem to be in disarray would be the houses of Gryffindor and > Slytherin. Hufflepuff and ravenclaw seem to have been, and continue > to be in this case, irrelevant. > > For the time being, Snape has been favored by the Slytherins (as he > favors them) and seen as pretty much the opposite by Gryffindors. > Will he gain favor on one side or lose favor on the other? > > Perhaps a compromise may ensue - who knows? But I just can't see a > perfect 'unity' - as in every Gryffindor accepting that he's a good > guy, and every Slytherin accepting that Voldemort's motives - and in > turn, Salazar's motives - were a little off kilter. Well, the books seem to suggest that Gryffindors generally have a stouter character than Slytherins, so that makes me think they would be more likely to accept the Slyths and Snape as an ally if they really had to. The real group that would need convincing is the Slytherins, and Snape is definitely in a position to affect that. Through favors and perhaps ridding the house of those individuals who will definitely follow V (if such a thing is possible), perhaps that could work. Or, it could be that the "uniting of the houses" is more symbolic than actual - maybe Snape and Harry working together would effectuate that. In which case, Snape would still be a key and required figure necessary for it to occur. The idea is definitely interesting though, especially given how much Sirius seems to parallel the Dog star myth. > As for Lucius - the sixth book out of seven is a little late for a > turnaround, let alone anything of the sort happening in the seventh. > There are too many connections to historical figures with the > name 'Lucius' to consider everyone to be parallel to the future fate > of Lucius Malfoy. However, alternate references such as Lucius Verus > who married his co-emperor's daughter to strengthen family ties, and > Lucius Cornelius Sulla who was considered to have bought his way > into political power do seem more fitting to the character. Ally: Yes, I agree that there are too many historical Lucius' too make much of this myth. But many of them are, surprisingly, good. Several religious figures and noble Roman soldiers and rulers were named Lucius. Your point about Lucius Cornelius Sulla is a very good one. That does seem more likely the influence here, assuming there is one. But the idea of being transformed into a golden ass through magic just seemed so perfectly Lucius - I can hardly think of a better description! From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 17:27:20 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:27:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > HunterGreen: > Indeed he could, but how to get them to agree to that? I think the > giants have their own agenda, and while it might be possible to set > up some sort of relations with them, I think convincing to fight for > a cause could be asking too much. GEO: He doesn't have to. The current faction of the giants are more into killing and maiming. He could just simply portkey them into a spot to create chaos and havoc and force the MoM into diverting resources to controlling the giants and obliviating people who've seen them. Simply put they're a great resource in Voldemort's present war especially seeing how he has less priorities than the Ministry. From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 17:31:56 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:31:56 -0000 Subject: Time Turner headache Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102715 I've seen PoA three times now, and I can't count how many times I've read the book. But I have been thinking on something... If you were just a student or teacher looking into two separate classes within a few minutes of each other, and they were two classes that Hermione was taking, would you see Hermione in each of them? If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time turns so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and see her in each of them? Like I said, I have a headache. It's just something I want to clarify to myself, and maybe you all can help me. Thanks! Alora From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 24 17:58:07 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040624175807.97456.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102716 Udderpd Is this of any consequence: we have recently been informed that Hermione's middle name is Jane. Ergo if Harry and Hermione were to marry both of them would have the initals HJP? She wouldn't be that sneeky, would she? TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bd-bear at verizon.net Thu Jun 24 17:55:00 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:55:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Turner headache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102717 >>>From: alora [mailto:chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com] If you were just a student or teacher looking into two separate classes within a few minutes of each other, and they were two classes that Hermione was taking, would you see Hermione in each of them? If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time turns so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and see her in each of them?<<< I do get the sense that it works like that, evidenced by Hermione and Ron seeing themselves after they did the time-turning thing. I also think the faculty (at least the relevant faculty for the classes Hermione was registered for) had to know about it. Which does make you wonder, would they leave Snape out of the loop, or other teachers whose classes were not in conflict on Hermione's schedule? Barbara, still hoping for more responses to my post "Some questions/comments about OOTP" bd-bear From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:04:37 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:04:37 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: <20040624170551.78472.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would > be the Dursleys. > > The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because > he spends time with his blood related family. So, if > Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be > to kill the Dursleys? > > Just a thought... > > ~Mo > Unless, as some have speculated, this protection also is extended to the Dursleys, of which Petunia probably is aware. From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jun 24 18:05:53 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:05:53 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102719 This reminds me, something just popped into my head about the prophecy as I was rereading OotP last night, but I don't have the book here today to check it. Voldemort knew there was a boy, born at a certain time, to parents who had thwarted him 3 times, who would eventually have the power to vanquish him. So, he went after both the Longbottoms and the Potters. He found/chose Harry first, tried to kill him but was essentially turned into vapor. If I recall, he did not hear the part of the prophecy about him "marking" the one as his enemy. "We" know Voldemort chose Harry and therefore Harry is the one who has the power to defeat him, but does Voldemort know this? What I am asking is if he still considers Neville a threat. He's shown no signs of pursuing Neville (that we know of), but if he doesn't know this part of the prophecy, why ignore Neville? Maybe this was cleared up at the end, but I don't remember. Can anyone else recall? BTW, I like this Longbottom theory very much. probono --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > Steve wrote: > >Frank and Alice Longbottom were Auror, the most highly trained and > >skilled members of Magical Law Enforcement, and more importantly, > >they were member of The Order of the Phoenix, and good and trusted > >friends of Dumbledore. AND, they had a son the same age as Harry. > > >That seems to meet all the requirements of a safe and trusted place, > >as well as safe and trusted people with which Harry could stay until > >Dumbledore made arrangements to place Harry with the Dursleys. > From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:07:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:07:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102720 Anasazi wrote : > Oh, spending time with your favorite guy alone during Prefect duty > is a very big clue. I think Hermione agrees with you too... now, let > us consult canon and look at the moment Hermione heard the news > that there was a another Prefect in Grimmauld Place. > > > "Hermione came tearing into the room, her cheeks flushed and her > hair flying. There was an envelope in her hand. > 'Did you - did you get -?' > She spotted the badge in Harry's hand and let out a shriek.'I knew > it!' she said excitedly, brandishing her letter. 'Me too, Harry, me > too!' > 'No,' said Harry quickly, pushing the badge back into Ron's > hand. 'It's Ron,not me.' > 'It - what? i-' > 'Ron's prefect, not me,' Harry said. > 'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But ... are you sure? I > mean -' > > > Now, if Hermione wanted some alone time with her boy toy Ron, why > wouldn't she wish for Ron to get the badge? See how she says "I knew > it!" as if she had dreamed of sharing the position with Harry. And > te "But... are you sure?" only makes things worse. And remember, > this is not my interpretation... THIS IS CANON. Del replies : Oh yes it is your interpretation ;-) ! I never implied that Hermione *wanted* to spend time alone with Ron. I just said that *JKR* wrote it this way. And I don't believe it was *disappointment* that Hermione expressed on learning who was the male Prefect, I think it was pure and sheer *astonishment*. Just like Ron minutes before, she simply can't believe it, because, just like the Twins, she was *so sure* it would be Harry. Harry is the leader, the one who always gets the attention (whether he wants it or not). Ron is the follower, definitely not Prefect material. And remember also that Hermione rarely guesses wrongly. So she's bound to be quite flabbergasted at learning that she made such a huge mistake. A few lines after the end of your quote, she's described as "looking thoroughly bewildered". Bewildered, not disappointed. Anasazi wrote : > There's one thing in particular that I took a bit of offense to... > > > Del replies : > > And it's Harry who took the decision for them both anyway : > > Hermione didn't have a choice. > > Before replying to this, I should state that Hermione is my favorite > character in the books, so I may get a little bit passionate about > this. > > This sounds a bit chauvinistic, in a way implying that Hermione (the > main female character in the book) has no choice but to follow the > alpha male in her life, Harry. Maybe if the story was set in the > Middle Ages I can see that this might be correct, but is not! Del replies : Don't get all worked up ! I was replying to a very specific point. Let's read the scene : (OoP, UK edition, p 603-604 "Harry," said a hoarse voice in Harry's ear. "Hermione..." Harry looked round and saw Hagrid's enormous bearded face (snip description of Hagrid) "Listen," he whispered, "can yeh come with me ? Now ? While ev'ryone's watchin' the match ?" "Er... can't it wait, Hagrid ?" asked Harry. "Till the match is over ?" "No," said Hagrid. "No, Harry, it's gotta be now... while ev'ryone's lookin' the other way... please ?" Hagrid's nose was gently dripping blood. His eyes were both blackened. Harry had not seen him this close-up since his return to the school; he looked utterly woebegone. "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come." It's pretty clear to me that Hermione wasn't consulted at all in this decision. Hagrid talked to Harry, and Harry said " *we* will come". Of course, Hermione could still have refused to go, but that would have been showing a huge lack of loyalty to both Harry and Hagrid. She was stuck, she had to go, whether she wanted to or not. Del From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:17:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:17:19 -0000 Subject: Time Turner headache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > alora wrote: > > If you were just a student or teacher looking into two separate > classes within a few minutes of each other, and they were two > classes that Hermione was taking, would you see Hermione in each of > them? If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time > turns so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just > doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and > see her in each of them?<<< > > Barbara wrote: > > I do get the sense that it works like that, evidenced by Hermione and Ron > seeing themselves after they did the time-turning thing. I also think the > faculty (at least the relevant faculty for the classes Hermione was > registered for) had to know about it. Which does make you wonder, would they > leave Snape out of the loop, or other teachers whose classes were not in > conflict on Hermione's schedule? > > Barbara, still hoping for more responses to my post "Some questions/comments > about OOTP" > bd-bear Neri: To Alora, this is a definite YES to your question. Hermione WAS at two classes at the same time. To Flora, I actually don't see any reason why the teachers (other than McGonagall) should have known about it. It does seem that Snape didn't know, and Hermione was also visiting Potions while going to other classes. I don't have the book with me but I know there is canon for it. Neri From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu Jun 24 18:18:59 2004 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:18:59 -0000 Subject: Baretender at Hog's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102722 I was re-reading OoP and something caught my eye: Page 336 US: "The barmann sidled toward them out of a back roon. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." Page 335 reads: "The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy and very dirty room that smelled strongly of something that might have been goats." It struck me as notable that the barman looked familiar to Harry. Re-reading the part about smelling like goats reminded me of Dumbledore's comments about his brother performing illegal charms on a goat. (Sorry for not referencing that one -- I don't remember which book it's from.) Could the barman be Dumbledore's brother (hence the familiarity from family resemblence). Heidi R. who doesn't know what, if any, significance any of this has...unless Dumbledore's brother is not on the "good side." From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 18:25:25 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:25:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Baretender at Hog's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102723 I was re-reading OoP and something caught my eye: Page 336 US: "The barmann sidled toward them out of a back roon. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." Page 335 reads: "The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy and very dirty room that smelled strongly of something that might have been goats." It struck me as notable that the barman looked familiar to Harry. Re-reading the part about smelling like goats reminded me of Dumbledore's comments about his brother performing illegal charms on a goat. (Sorry for not referencing that one -- I don't remember which book it's from.) Could the barman be Dumbledore's brother (hence the familiarity from family resemblence). Heidi R. who doesn't know what, if any, significance any of this has...unless Dumbledore's brother is not on the "good side." Gina now: Yes and Harry had seen the pic Moody had of the original order where Harry saw DD's brother and Moody said he had only seen him that once and he was a strange fellow. I say you are right on this one! I too wonder if he is BAD or just ECCETRIC! Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at vcem.com Thu Jun 24 18:24:55 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:24:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: <20040624175807.97456.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040624175807.97456.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15010379508.20040624112455@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102724 Hi, Thursday, June 24, 2004, 10:58:07 AM, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > Is this of any consequence: we have recently been > informed that Hermione's middle name is Jane. Ergo if > Harry and > Hermione were to marry both of them would have the initals HJP? I think the middle name Jane might hail back to JKR saying she almost wished she had named Hermione Jane instead, since so many people had a hard time pronouncing the name. And who is to say Hermione would change her last name, should she get married? ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:27:46 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:27:46 -0000 Subject: names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: <1ee818a80406240915273009f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Thren Summers wrote: > > Potioncat: > > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > > given names? > JoAnna: My best friend's first son is Korwynn Orion Hunter Harrison Brown. She and her husband (now her ex) had a deal that if he was born on her due date, she got to name him; if not, he did. Well, he was born on his due date (February 29!) and picked out Korwynn. Her husband insisted on two of the middle names (Hunter and Harrison) because they're family names. She didn't like either and tacked on Orion as well so he'd have a middle name that *she* liked, too. Poor kid. If I was him, I'd be changing my name to something shorter as soon as I was legally able to do so! My guess is that it's the same with Dumbledore - perhaps he came from an illustrious family and was named after several relatives since his parents couldn't decide who to name him after! - JoAnna From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu Jun 24 18:29:08 2004 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:29:08 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102726 > > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would > > be the Dursleys. (by Minerva) > Unless, as some have speculated, this protection also is extended to > the Dursleys, of which Petunia probably is aware. (by Mo) Could this point to Petunia's motivation for keeping Harry around? Were there other family members murdered? What about Harry's grandparents (both sides)? We know that wizards live longer so it is very fishy that there are no other Potters about. If there were many deaths, then that would explain Petunia's fear of all things magical. Was Petunia, perhaps, promised protection personally from Dumbledore in exchange for keeping Harry? (Sorry about all those P's!) It seems that if she knew about Dementors (OoP), she must know that Albus Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard and the only one whom Voldemort fears. Maybe she even knows that Voldemort was a threat to Muggledom as well? Protecting her own family would be a powerful motivation for keeping Harry around. My 2 knuts, Heidi R. From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:33:49 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:33:49 -0000 Subject: Baretender at Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > goat. (Sorry for not referencing that one -- I don't remember which > Gina now: > Yes and Harry had seen the pic Moody had of the original order where > Harry saw DD's brother and Moody said he had only seen him that once and he > was a strange fellow. I say you are right on this one! I too wonder if he is > BAD or just ECCETRIC! > Gina I think he's good and eccentric, and I think he is the one that threw out the eavesdropper when Dumbledore was listening to Trelawney's prophecy. Just my thought... Alora From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jun 24 18:40:15 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:40:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102728 Gina now: The trouble is if you type in Tom Marvolo Riddle you do not get I am lord voldemort in the results. Gina - who wishes it was fool proof! vmonte: I know. For instance you can get Ron Bilus and Nicolas Flamel from Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. But then you have a lot of extra letters that make nothing that makes sense. Besides DD's name is so long you can practically make it say anthing. I think "I am the walrus" is also in there. Just kidding, vivian Gina again : * Putting in Droobles Best Blowing Gum on Wordsmith comes up with GEORGE MOLL SUNS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jun 24 18:48:50 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:48:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Turner headache References: Message-ID: <006a01c45a1b$e491be30$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102729 > I've seen PoA three times now, and I can't count how many times I've > read the book. But I have been thinking on something... > > If you were just a student or teacher looking into two separate > classes within a few minutes of each other, and they were two > classes that Hermione was taking, would you see Hermione in each of > them? If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time > turns so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just > doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and > see her in each of them? > > Like I said, I have a headache. It's just something I want to > clarify to myself, and maybe you all can help me. Thanks! > > Alora > The person peeking in will see Hermione in both classes, yes. As proof we have the very beginning of POA, ch 22 Owl Post Again. Harry and Hermione run back up to the doors of the infirmary, hearing DD's voice telling them he's locking them in, then DD exits. He can see the time travelling H&Hr as well as the ones who are preparing to go back in time. Alina. From senderellabrat at aol.com Thu Jun 24 19:04:22 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:04:22 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102730 Hettiebe: > I can't help feeling that Neville's sole talent, herbology, is going > to come in here somewhere. It's obviously being kept up in the story > for some reason. So it might be a clue or anagram of a plant or > process of which we know nothing as yet. Me: Reading this really sparked something in my mind. Bear with me guys. I really feel like I had a burst of genius. What if it has nothing to do with an anagram? (I'm not sure how long Alice has been giving Neville the wrappers. We really don't have proof of that as far as I can remember NOR do we know how often they go to visit his parents.. so with that aside & out of the equation,let me lay this out). I'm sure when Neville & Gran go to visit they talk to his parents about Neville's school and how much he likes/is good at Herbology right? I'm sure they just don't stand there silently looking at them. Gums have a lot of PLANT BASED ingredients. What if Alice is giving him the wrappers because a particular plant (possibly a plant based ingredient in Droobles) is what they need to snap out of their current state. It could also tie in with (I don't have my book on me right now) the fact Neville thought he did ok on his Potions OWLs. If he can get through an OWL level exam without Snape hovering over him making him incredibly nervous, he may be pretty good at Potions which would tie in beautifully with his Herbology knack. Maybe we're clutching desperately to anagrams which is what JKR wants us to do as to throw us off the scent. **Seeking cover for the cannon firing squad** =o) Sen From t.forch at email.dk Thu Jun 24 19:12:51 2004 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:12:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Turner headache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040624203813.020acdd0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 102731 At 18:17 24-06-04 +0000, nkafkafi wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" > wrote: > > alora wrote: > >> > >> If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time turns > >> so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just > >> doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and > >> see her in each of them? > > > > Barbara wrote: > > > > I do get the sense that it works like that, evidenced by Hermione and Ron > > seeing themselves after they did the time-turning thing. Hermione and Harry, surely. I don't recall Ron ever doing any Time- Turning. >Neri: > >To Alora, this is a definite YES to your question. Hermione WAS at two >classes at the same >time. Definitely. As is surely evidence when Harry sees himself - both ways - as he saved himself (as well as Hermione and Sirius) from the Dementors. > > I also think the faculty (at least the relevant faculty for the > > classes Hermione was registered for) had to know about it. Which does > > make you wonder, would they leave Snape out of the loop, or other > > teachers whose classes were not in conflict on Hermione's schedule? > >To Flora, I actually don't see any reason why the teachers (other than >McGonagall) should have known about it. It does seem that Snape didn't >know, and Hermione was also visiting Potions while going to other classes. >I don't have the book with me but I know there is canon for it. Surely - she disappears at one point as the trio is going up from the crypt after Potions. I have always thought that Snape possibly knew - primarily because I think that he does realise what had been going on while speaking with Dumbledore and Fudge in the hospital wing. The relevant passage is from PoA-22 'Owl Post Again': " 'HE DIDN'T DISAPPARATE!' Snape roared, now very close at hand. 'YOU CAN'T APPARATE /OR/ DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE! THIS - HAS - SOMETHING - TO - DO - WITH - POTTER!' 'Severus - be reasonable - Harry has been locked up -' [...] 'THEY HELPED HIM ESCAPE, I KNOW IT!' Snape howled, pointing at Harry and Hermione. His face was twisted; spit was flying from his mouth. 'Calm down, man!' Fudge barked. 'You're talking nonsense!'" At this point it seem fairly well established that Snape is indeed 'beside himself'. Roaring, howling and shrieking, twisted face and spit flying - this is a man who who has completely lost control of his rage. Now - what happens a short while later: " 'Well, there you have it, Severus,' said Dumbledore calmly. 'Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further.' Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward." How come that he suddenly just 'whirled about [...] and stormed out of the ward" instead of continuing his maddened roaring? We know now that he is indeed a Legilimens and as such /might/ be able to detect what Dumbledore means (after all they know each other well, and Dumbledore doesn't appear to hide his emotions), and, realising what has actually happened - that Harry and Hermione indeed /were/ "able to be in two places at once", he also realise that his loyalty toward Dumbledore effectively shuts him up in the presence of the Minister. Hence his sudden turn about and hasty retreat. The thing is - it becomes much easier to believe this if Snape knew of the Time-Turner beforehand, but just hadn't thought of it as a possible solution to the riddle () until Dumbledore's comment about being in two places simultaneously. Dumbledore's intention, IMO, would be to leave Fudge in no doubt that Snape's claims are not to be believed, and it works: 'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. 'I'd watch out for him if I were you, Dumbledore.' But having achieved his end, Dumbledore doesn't have to lie - he can clearly state the truth, knowing that Fudge will not believe him. 'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.' Now, it is clear that Fudge would have access to the knowledge that Hermione had access to a Time-Turner, but surely he wasn't involved when she was given it (I don't believe that the Minister for Magic would be involved in such a matter - clearly a bureaucratic issue as evidenced by the paperwork needed), and even though he might, a year later, have started to investigate Harry and Dumbledore's records at the Ministry, the Time-Turner wouldn't turn up (pun not intended), as it was requested by McGonagall for Hermione (as Hermione explains to Harry when telling him about the Time-Turner). Troels From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 19:15:30 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:15:30 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102732 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > I agree that the status of house elves in the books makes me more than a little queasy. I > think the thing we need to consider is what their nature actually *is*. > > Are they simply magical creatures whose reason for being is to serve a particular house or > family? If so, they are not truly enslaved, though they are clearly much abused by > wizarding folk, who take their service very much for granted. > > On the other hand, are they powerful magical creatures whose desire for praise, etc, has > allowed them to be drawn into a devil's bargain with the wizarding community? This would > be enslavement, and pretty reprehensible. > > It seems to me that the destruction of that ridiculous fountain in OotP signaled a change in > the attitudes of some, at least, of the wizarding community. Here's what Dumbledore has > to say in Chapter 37, The Lost Prophecy: 'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. > `He regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and > neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike ... the fountain we destroyed > tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and > we are now reaping our reward.' > > Perhaps, led by Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley, who seemingly alone in the wizarding > world consider non-wizards/witches to be equals, the WW will go through a > transformation of its view both of what constitutes civil rights and what constitutes > freedom. Susan now: So I finished rereading CoS, and I truly hope this hasn't been brought up before, but after Harry frees Dobby, they talk for a minute, then (paraphrase) a loud crack (the same way JKR describes apparating) and Dobby *disappears*. They were standing in the hallway outside DD's office. Did Dobby just disapparate? If so, then house-elves are immune to the spells and charms that make it impossible for _witches and wizards_ to dis/apparate on and off Hogwarts grounds? If so, then wouldn't it be a very good idea for DD et al to secure house-elves' loyalty to their cause? If house-elves en masse decided to support LV, then it seems to me that LV would have a really easy time capturing the school, where DD and HP just happen to be. At the very least, evil house-elves being able to apparate onto school grounds would definitely compromise Hogwarts' security. Any thoughts? Susan :-) From senderellabrat at aol.com Thu Jun 24 19:15:06 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:15:06 -0000 Subject: names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > x> > > vmonte: (I think) > > > > I know. For instance you can get Ron Bilus and Nicolas Flamel > > from Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. But then you have a > > lot of extra letters that make nothing that makes sense. > > > > Potioncat: > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > given names? It happens. A close friend of mine's daughter in law gave both her son & daughter 4 names. My husband and I are using 3 names plus our last name for our children. Reason being, the third name (2nd middle name as we call it) are going to be our fathers names which are both unisex. So for example, if I were Ginny Weasley (Arthur obviously being my dad) and I married Harry, we might name our son Samuel David Arthur Potter (lol just throwing some names together so I can explain mine & DH's thinking goes). Some people may not be able to decide on what names they like the best or they've got quite a few people they want to honor. =o) Sen From kreneeb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 19:50:20 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:50:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102734 Anasazi wrote : > Oh, spending time with your favorite guy alone during Prefect duty > is a very big clue. I think Hermione agrees with you too... now, let > us consult canon and look at the moment Hermione heard the news > that there was a another Prefect in Grimmauld Place. > > > "Hermione came tearing into the room, her cheeks flushed and her > hair flying. There was an envelope in her hand. > 'Did you - did you get -?' > She spotted the badge in Harry's hand and let out a shriek.'I knew > it!' she said excitedly, brandishing her letter. 'Me too, Harry, me > too!' > 'No,' said Harry quickly, pushing the badge back into Ron's > hand. 'It's Ron,not me.' > 'It - what? i-' > 'Ron's prefect, not me,' Harry said. > 'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But ... are you sure? I > mean -' > > > Now, if Hermione wanted some alone time with her boy toy Ron, why > wouldn't she wish for Ron to get the badge? See how she says "I knew > it!" as if she had dreamed of sharing the position with Harry. And > te "But... are you sure?" only makes things worse. And remember, > this is not my interpretation... THIS IS CANON. Del replies : Oh yes it is your interpretation ;-) ! I never implied that Hermione *wanted* to spend time alone with Ron. I just said that *JKR* wrote it this way. And I don't believe it was *disappointment* that Hermione expressed on learning who was the male Prefect, I think it was pure and sheer *astonishment*. Just like Ron minutes before, she simply can't believe it, because, just like the Twins, she was *so sure* it would be Harry. Harry is the leader, the one who always gets the attention (whether he wants it or not). Ron is the follower, definitely not Prefect material. And remember also that Hermione rarely guesses wrongly. So she's bound to be quite flabbergasted at learning that she made such a huge mistake. A few lines after the end of your quote, she's described as "looking thoroughly bewildered". Bewildered, not disappointed. Anasazi wrote : > There's one thing in particular that I took a bit of offense to... > > > Del replies : > > And it's Harry who took the decision for them both anyway : > > Hermione didn't have a choice. > > Before replying to this, I should state that Hermione is my favorite > character in the books, so I may get a little bit passionate about > this. > > This sounds a bit chauvinistic, in a way implying that Hermione (the > main female character in the book) has no choice but to follow the > alpha male in her life, Harry. Maybe if the story was set in the > Middle Ages I can see that this might be correct, but is not! Del replies : Don't get all worked up ! I was replying to a very specific point. Let's read the scene : (OoP, UK edition, p 603-604 "Harry," said a hoarse voice in Harry's ear. "Hermione..." Harry looked round and saw Hagrid's enormous bearded face (snip description of Hagrid) "Listen," he whispered, "can yeh come with me ? Now ? While ev'ryone's watchin' the match ?" "Er... can't it wait, Hagrid ?" asked Harry. "Till the match is over ?" "No," said Hagrid. "No, Harry, it's gotta be now... while ev'ryone's lookin' the other way... please ?" Hagrid's nose was gently dripping blood. His eyes were both blackened. Harry had not seen him this close-up since his return to the school; he looked utterly woebegone. "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come." It's pretty clear to me that Hermione wasn't consulted at all in this decision. Hagrid talked to Harry, and Harry said " *we* will come". Of course, Hermione could still have refused to go, but that would have been showing a huge lack of loyalty to both Harry and Hagrid. She was stuck, she had to go, whether she wanted to or not. Del kitten says I just wanted to add that hermione says herself that they *didn't* want to go. "Well no," Said Hermione, streaching out a placatory hand toward him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave... we had to!" and harry implies that they had no choice... "it was Hagrid," said Harry. "He decided to tell us why he's been covered im injuries ever since he got back from the giants. He wanted us to go into the forest with him, we had no choice, you know how he gets...Anyway..." both the quotes are from OOTP, O.W.L.S, page 705, american hardback... kitten who's sorry for interfering on Del's and Anasazi debate that they have going... just wanted to add my to knuts-g- From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 19:53:49 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:53:49 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: <20040624175807.97456.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > Udderpd > > Is this of any consequence: we have recently been informed that Hermione's middle name is Jane. Ergo if Harry and Hermione were to marry both of them would have the initals HJP? > > She wouldn't be that sneeky, would she? > > TTFN Udder PenDragon GEO: Actually it seems in the original drafts, Hermione already had the same initials since she was original named Hermione Puckle. From littlekat10 at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 15:34:38 2004 From: littlekat10 at comcast.net (Littlekat10) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:34:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Screaming Portrait (Re: Elf Beheading) References: <20040624114355.8901.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0b8801c45a00$c3665560$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 102736 I have a feeling that the Malfoys would find the means to rid themselves of the portrait as fast as possible. Or maybe they would uncover it when guests arrive to see what sort of reactions the portrait would get from them. when Littlekat From marshbur at cs.unc.edu Thu Jun 24 17:16:38 2004 From: marshbur at cs.unc.edu (marshbur at cs.unc.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:16:38 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: <20040624170551.78472.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would > be the Dursleys. > > The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because > he spends time with his blood related family. So, if > Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be > to kill the Dursleys? So, it occurred to me that the protection afforded Harry may be a two-way street; that is, as long as the Dursleys provide Harry a home, they are also protected from VM and the DEs. It would be a very reasonable explanation for why Petunia insists that Harry stay in OotP. The true nature of the protection has thusfar not been revealed to us, until it is, or until we at least have more details about the nature of the protection, it's hard to imagine VM figuring it out. It seems DD has some inklings about the nature, but he hasn't told, so far. maybe that will be a plot point in book 6 or 7. cheers, -david From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 20:31:20 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:31:20 -0000 Subject: Time Turner headache In-Reply-To: <006a01c45a1b$e491be30$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102738 >>> Alora wrote: > > > > If you were just a student or teacher looking into two separate classes within a few minutes of each other, and they were two > > classes that Hermione was taking, would you see Hermione in each of them? If she's taking Arithmancy and goes there first, then time > > turns so she can do Divination (I may have the order wrong, I'm just doing a "perhaps"), would you be able to peek into both classes and see her in each of them? Bren: I think so. Didn't Ron ask Dean/Seamus (Sorry, can't remember who exactly) whether Hermione was in Arithemancy (or some other class that she had schedule conflict with) in the beginning of PoA? I think the answer Ron got was Yes, she was in that class. I'm so confused when it comes to time-turner as well. One moment I think I understand it and next I'm confused all over again. But then I ask, how can you *possibly* kill someone with a wooden stick from a distant? To quote my favorite line from CoS -- "It's just like magic!!" Bren From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 24 20:31:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:31:00 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > [Geoff writes]: > > | This, as Crouch's description shows later, was before Moody was > | overcome and Crouch Jr. started using the Polyjuice Potion. So Crouch > | Snr. was under the Inmperius Curse well before the World Cup and no > | one noticed any difference. > > [Lee]: > I beg to differ, friend. Crouch Senior was imperioed after the World Cup. Geoff: You obviously missed my reply in message 102693, timed at 3.25 pm BST today in which I explained I had absent mindedly mixed up the QWC with the TT. From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jun 24 18:47:03 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:47:03 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: <20040624175807.97456.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > Udderpd > > Is this of any consequence: we have recently been informed that Hermione's middle name is Jane. Ergo if Harry and Hermione were to marry both of them would have the initals HJP? > > She wouldn't be that sneeky, would she? > > TTFN Udder PenDragon My reply: I don't know if this means anything or not in the great shipping debate. But if you go to JKR's site, there's a piece of info saying that Hermione's last name was not originally Granger, but Puckles, and she decided to change it at the last minute. That would have made them to be HJP BEFORE there was any relationship between them. I believe the similarities with the names may be due to the following: a. JKR is throwing H/Hr shippers a bone. b. Another infamous red herring. c. O.O THE STAR WARS SCENARIO! HARRY AND HERMIONE ARE BROTHER AND SISTER! AND VOLDIE IS THE FATHER! (^_^) In conclusion, only JKR knows. Anasazi From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 24 20:43:39 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:43:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102741 | From: Shannon | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 15:16 PM | | Shannon: | | The thought that all students would have to go to Diagon Alley to get | their school supplies anyway, since even in Hogsmeade I do not | remember them saying anything about stores that carry the supplies | the kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that they travel | from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's not like in the WW they have | to travel as muggles do, they can apparate and travel by floo and | other ways to get to the area. [Lee]: Okay, but what about firsties with muggle parents? They'd need an escort to get into Diagon Alley. Now, does Hogwarts have a pool of folk they can call upon to initiate the firsties? I just read one fic which addressed that, and the thought was a neat one. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jun 24 19:10:07 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:10:07 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102742 > Del replies : > Don't get all worked up ! I was replying to a very specific point. > Let's read the scene : > > (OoP, UK edition, p 603-604 > "Harry," said a hoarse voice in Harry's ear. "Hermione..." > Harry looked round and saw Hagrid's enormous bearded face (snip > description of Hagrid) > "Listen," he whispered, "can yeh come with me ? Now ? While ev'ryone's > watchin' the match ?" > "Er... can't it wait, Hagrid ?" asked Harry. "Till the match is over ?" > "No," said Hagrid. "No, Harry, it's gotta be now... while ev'ryone's > lookin' the other way... please ?" > Hagrid's nose was gently dripping blood. His eyes were both blackened. > Harry had not seen him this close-up since his return to the school; > he looked utterly woebegone. > "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come." > > It's pretty clear to me that Hermione wasn't consulted at all in this > decision. Hagrid talked to Harry, and Harry said " *we* will come". Of > course, Hermione could still have refused to go, but that would have > been showing a huge lack of loyalty to both Harry and Hagrid. She was > stuck, she had to go, whether she wanted to or not. > > Del Anasazi replies: I was not discussing whether Hermione wanted to go or not (who would have wanted to follow a bruised half-giant when you could have been watching your house's Quidditch game?), I was discussing the principle of choice. You said "Hermione could still have refused to go". That shows it was her CHOICE to go, whether it was a reluctant choice or not. Just like the DoM scene: she didn't WANT to go! She knew it was stupid of Harry; she knew they were most likely to get into big trouble... and yet, she CHOSE to go! By taking away her freedom to chose, I believe you are taking something that's integral to who Hermione is. And of course, taking away the responsibility that comes with those choices. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jun 24 20:55:15 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:55:15 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102743 > Anasazi joked: > snip < > c. O.O THE STAR WARS SCENARIO! HARRY AND HERMIONE ARE BROTHER AND > SISTER! AND VOLDIE IS THE FATHER! (^_^) Oh oh oh! Does that mean there will be a prequel with baby Voldie being discovered and tutored by a younger, less wise Dumbledore who mistakenly lets him turn to the dark magic after his fateful encounter with lovely princess Petunia and his befriending of two 'droids, I mean henchmen, named Crabbe and Goyle?!?!? Can I call dibs on that prediction? boyd apparently off my meds again From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 21:06:41 2004 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:06:41 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102744 probono: "We" know Voldemort chose Harry and therefore Harry is > the one who has the power to defeat him, but does Voldemort know > this? What I am asking is if he still considers Neville a threat. > He's shown no signs of pursuing Neville (that we know of), but if he > doesn't know this part of the prophecy, why ignore Neville? > > Maybe this was cleared up at the end, but I don't remember. Can > anyone else recall? Christy: Isn't that the reason that Voldemort lures Harry into the MoM to begin with? To hear the WHOLE prophesy? pg. 843 OotP "Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sibyll Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My -- our -- one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building. So he only heard...? He heard only the first part, the part fortelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort." Harry gets the prophecy, Voldemort takes it and listens to it, and finally hears what he needs to (or what he thinks he needs to) hear to defeat Harry. Christy From lmenard at shentel.net Thu Jun 24 19:05:36 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:05:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Baretender at Hog's Head References: Message-ID: <003e01c45a1e$3d518d50$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 102745 Heidi R.: It struck me as notable that the barman looked familiar to Harry. Re-reading the part about smelling like goats reminded me of Dumbledore's comments about his brother performing illegal charms on a goat. (Sorry for not referencing that one -- I don't remember which book it's from.) Could the barman be Dumbledore's brother (hence the familiarity from family resemblance). Laura: DD mentioned his brother and goat charms in GOF (page 454, US) while trying to get Hagrid to come back after beetle-reporter wrote about him being half-giant. "... My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide?..." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From draco382 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 21:29:49 2004 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:29:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" > Anasazi replies: > By taking away her freedom to chose, I believe you are taking > something that's integral to who Hermione is. And of course, taking > away the responsibility that comes with those choices. I thought i'd come out of lurkdom to put in my two cents on this debate -- my impression of Hermione's relationship to Harry is (brace yourself) one of complete respect and deference. Not in the subservient "Harry is my God" kind of way, mind you -- more akin to the statement she made back in book1: "books, cleverness...friendship is what's really important" (paraphrasing). I think she honestly feels that Harry, although wild, untamable and often headstrong in many situations, has some level of authority to her -- and even though she has no problem with telling of Ron for being a prat, she might think twice when it comes to Harry. Honestly, at times she does seem to worship the guy. Probably because he is the only one who "matches" up to her level of understanding, comprehension and values. Besides...isn't it completely possible that Hermione might find his qualitites desirable (not in the love sense necessarily)? As someone mentioned previously, Harry is, in many ways the ultimate alpha Male of the series... my two cents, draco382 From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jun 24 21:42:15 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:42:15 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" wrote: > probono: > > "We" know Voldemort chose Harry and therefore Harry is > > the one who has the power to defeat him, but does Voldemort know > > this? What I am asking is if he still considers Neville a threat. > > He's shown no signs of pursuing Neville (that we know of), but if he > > doesn't know this part of the prophecy, why ignore Neville? > > > > Maybe this was cleared up at the end, but I don't remember. Can > > anyone else recall? > > Christy: > > Isn't that the reason that Voldemort lures Harry into the MoM to begin > with? To hear the WHOLE prophesy? > > pg. 843 OotP > > "Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sibyll > Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My -- our -- > one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only > a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building. > > So he only heard...? > > He heard only the first part, the part fortelling the birth of a boy > in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort." > > Harry gets the prophecy, Voldemort takes it and listens to it, and > finally hears what he needs to (or what he thinks he needs to) hear to > defeat Harry. Probono: Thanks Christy, just what I was thinking. So, in all fairness Voldemort should be just as concerned with eliminating Neville as he is with Harry. Though, admittedly his biff with Harry is a bit more personal. That makes Neville far more vulnerable then I ever suspected. Very interesting. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 21:43:35 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:43:35 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102748 >>> Barbara wrote: Barbara, still hoping for more responses to my post "Some questions/comments about OOTP" <<< Bren: Heehee, I feel ya!! I was going to respond to your "Some Questions/Comments about GoF" post, but oh well, this one first then ;-) >>> Barbara wrote: I have tears in my eyes from those last few paragraphs where some of the OOTP members confront the Dursleys. And I was just on the edge of my seat from the moment Sirius was killed, all through his palpable pain, anger at DD (and himself) and guilt, the scene with Dumbledore explaining Harry's doomed future (as he says, he'll either be a murderer or a victim)... Such powerful chapters. JKR is really brilliant. Bren: Yes, it is a powerfully emotional book. And very depressing too, I found. I was actually laughing in the last chapter when Moody revealed himself to Vernon - serves him right! But yeah, I was SO incredibly depressed when Sirius died. Although my friend had told me that Sirius dies and it wasn't AK so I wasn't crying me a river... Sirius was the only character I had hoped so much to be safe and he turned out to be the "infamous death" of OoP that JKR had publicized. Dang... In regards to HArry being either a murderer or a victim... I always figured that they couldn't survive together in this world or life time. VM was always after Harry, Harry had to kill Voldemort in self- defence before VM does HArry (wells that VM is so darn persistent!), so the prophecy wasn't much of a news. What did surprise me though, was that Neville was the other candidate. >>> Now some miscellaneous comments I wrote down as I was reading the book: <<< I tried doing that with GoF the first time around, to follow up with suspicious characters. But needless to say I miserably failed. How are you supposed to just *not* believe that a seemingly-minor DEAD character was in fact alive?!?! >>> How does Dumbledore know exactly what is happening on Privet Drive and how is he able to send a Howler minutes after Vernon tells Harry to get out? <<< Perhaps Mrs Figg alerted D-Dore after the Dementor's attack and DD saw it coming? Or maybe another canon for DD time-traveling? (I doubt it though) >>> I can totally understand Harry's anger and hurt at being left out of things when he is the one that has had to endure the trauma and havoc wreaked by VM. Not only has he handled himself well enough to be told what is going on, but he has suffered so much and then feels like people have abandoned him just when he needs them most. <<< I know I've said this before and been argued, but I still believe HArry learning about the Prophecy before OoP-ending might have been dangerous. This isn't some "memory" Harry will have, it will haunt him down. The thought of being the murderer or the victim of most evil wizard... it would have given him nightmares, left him highly vulnerable and unstable, and I think VM would have taken advantage of it. Learning the full content of prophecy through HArry's emotional roller-coaster ride. I also doubt that D-Dore would have told Harry that the record is kept in DoM, so VM might have used the same vision to lure Harry out, whether Harry knew about it or not. >>> Maybe you're all right about him not being the "one too cowardly to return." I actually think it takes a lot of (misplaced) chutzpah to twist things around and create the rumors of DD being senile and HP being nuts (sorry British members, nutters :^) ) ... esp. since DD is considered so powerful and all. To doubt him, to openly attempt to cause people to distrust DD... boy, if Fudge isn't a DE, he's just plan STUPID. <<< Hmm, I always thought that "the one too cowardly to return" was Karkaroff and the one "who has left me" was Fudge. Karkaroff seems the more likely candidate for being *too cowardly*, who will face wrath of hell from the DEs on top of VM. Fudge OTOH has problem with VM, but not with DEs (compared to Karkaroff that is). >>> And to come back to VM for a minute, I wonder if we'll hear more about his loathing of DD. I mean, I wonder if it is only because DD challenged him, when he became LV, or if there is some back history we don't know about between Riddle and DD. Maybe some father-like rejection just fueled his already psychopathic personality. <<< I'm definitely up for seeing more of young Tom Riddle and DD. I wonder just WHY he fears him and loathes him at the same time?! >>> I found some parts of the book very funny (although I can't quote them at the moment). That was a nice contrast to all the stuff that Umbridge was putting them through. I think the funniest parts (although they were more touching than funny) were the parts with Cho (when she wasn't crying!). Harry discovering how it feels when a girl likes him, getting kissed, holding hands, etc. I think those were the best parts of his whole year. <<< My favorite parts in OoP: 5. Lockhart in St. Mungo's -- he's just so incompetent it cracks me up 4. "Weasley's our King..." 3. Ginny's *Hem, Hem* 2. Fred & George's escape -- bloody brilliant! 1. Sirius singing carols during Christmas break!! How lovely!! I liked Cho in GoF but not at all in OoP, she's going to be one of those manipulators in Soap Opera! >>> And as far as Harry not practicing Occlumency or doing his best, I have to give the kid a break. <<< Errr, let's not open that can of worms that had just recently been closed... >>> And all this happens when he's dealing with raging hormones and his attraction to Cho! I can't help but feel for him! Ultimately I am just so sad for Harry. What a life he's had! How much sadness he has had to endure! What a year! It was probably the only year he's ever been at Hogwarts that he was miserable or unhappy most of the time. And yet, he still didn't want to go back to the Dursleys, so that tells you how awful it is there! <<< I agree with you, and yes I do think Harry had an absolutely horrible year, but it still doesn't justify him rashing out on his emotion, IMHO. All these anger, rage, and even using Crucio... he's becoming non other than VM himself!! If Harry's had such a hard life than so did Voldemort. His muggle father abandoning his witch mother, his mom dying right after his birth, being raised in an orphanage. At least Harry had a "family" better than the orphanage staffs. Top that with a surge of snaky Salazar's blood running through him (is he the last remaining "ancestor" of Salazar? I heard that JKR meant it that way. That is quite odd. Time-turning again?) - not so different from Harry! Harry = VM = Salazar?!?! Yikes! Harry really really REALLY needs to control that anger, or else Hell breaks loose... >>> In the "Beyond the Veil" chapter ... Hermione says "Accio Wand!" How does the spell know which wand? And if wands in the WW are like weapons, why not break the wands of the DE whenever they fall or let go of their wand? Destroy the wand, destroy some of the concentrated power. Although I realize the more powerful DEs will not need their wands to continue. <<< Hmm, maybe breaking other wizard's wands are federal offence? Not that breaking DE's wand will bring you troubles from the Ministry. I imagine destroying the wand will be very difficult though. I can imagine flashes of all different colour (green predominent?) coming out of the broken wand. Regardless of how powerful, I think you still need the wand to perform the Unforgivable curses. HEck, even Voldemort, the master of AK, still shouts the incantation! >>> I didn't really get that Harry blames Snape for Sirius's death as much as he blames himself for not keeping up with the Occlumency or practicing. Yes, he hates Snape and threw some blame his way when Dumbledore mentioned Snape's part in things, but I felt that Harry was blaming himself more than anything. And oh my God, if he had just opened Sirius's package sooner, even if he intended not to use it, if he had seen what it was, he could have confirmed Sirius wasn't in the DOM before going off half-cocked with his friends! <<< I never thought Harry blamed it on Snape till I read some posts a few weeks ago. Another reason I'm SOO mad at HArry for not opening Sirius' gift -- can you imagine all those times they could have talked to each other?? He could've talked to Sirius every night under his bed!! It would have made both of them so happy, Sirius wouldn't have been so restless... I really hope he learns not to jump to conclusions in the future... or listens to HErmione, at the very least. >>> I vaguely recall some discussion about Neville showing some powerful abilities, but I didn't really see that. What I did see is proof that he is rightfully in Gryffindor! He showed such bravery to be by Harry's side the whole time! I was very impressed with that. And what the heck was that brain-thing doing to Ron? Actually there was so much happening in those couple chapters, I might have to read them again to absorb it all. <<< I'd love to see Neville battling Bella in the next books. Gran will be oh-so-proud of him!! >>> Was thrilled that DU finally got what's coming to her. Anyone wonder what EXACTLY happened to her with the centaurs? <<< And I wonder how DD even had the *courage* to lift her up and bring her back to the castle? I know he probably used some charms, but gosh just to imagine how much she'll weigh... and after what she's done to him, DD could have just dropped her on the ground and dragged her, hehehehe. Now there's an amusing thought! >>> Boy I want those DEs to get what they deserve! Especially Bellatrix who is such a sadistic b*tch! <<< And that Wormtail!!! He's the reason Sirius lost everything!! HEck, time to go to class!! Bren, who must eat dinner in 5 mins and run to 3-hour class From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 21:44:48 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:44:48 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: Shannon > | Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 15:16 PM > | > | Shannon: > | > | The thought that all students would have to go to Diagon Alley to get > | their school supplies anyway, since even in Hogsmeade I do not > | remember them saying anything about stores that carry the supplies > | the kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that they travel > | from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's not like in the WW they have > | to travel as muggles do, they can apparate and travel by floo and > | other ways to get to the area. > > [Lee]: > Okay, but what about firsties with muggle parents? They'd need an escort to > get into Diagon Alley. Now, does Hogwarts have a pool of folk they can call > upon to initiate the firsties? > > I just read one fic which addressed that, and the thought was a neat one. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) > > Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm > I may not care to lead; | N2FGC > Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at o... (or) > I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at a... > Walk beside me, and be my friend. JKR said (I think it was the WBD chat) that representatives fromt he WW go to the muggle parents home to deliver the letter to Hogwarts and offer explanations, including why their child has been doing "strange" things (like making the glass disappear). I would imagine these same representatives either escort to Diagon Alley or give detailed directions. Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 21:46:41 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:46:41 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" > wrote: > > probono: > > > > "We" know Voldemort chose Harry and therefore Harry is > > > the one who has the power to defeat him, but does Voldemort know > > > this? What I am asking is if he still considers Neville a > threat. > > > He's shown no signs of pursuing Neville (that we know of), but > if he > > > doesn't know this part of the prophecy, why ignore Neville? > > > > > > Maybe this was cleared up at the end, but I don't remember. Can > > > anyone else recall? > > > > Christy: > > > > Isn't that the reason that Voldemort lures Harry into the MoM to > begin > > with? To hear the WHOLE prophesy? > > > > pg. 843 OotP > > > > "Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sibyll > > Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My -- > our -- > > one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected > only > > a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building. > > > > So he only heard...? > > > > He heard only the first part, the part fortelling the birth of a > boy > > in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort." > > > > Harry gets the prophecy, Voldemort takes it and listens to it, and > > finally hears what he needs to (or what he thinks he needs to) > hear to > > defeat Harry. > > Probono: Thanks Christy, just what I was thinking. So, in all > fairness Voldemort should be just as concerned with eliminating > Neville as he is with Harry. Though, admittedly his biff with Harry > is a bit more personal. That makes Neville far more vulnerable then > I ever suspected. Very interesting. BUt VOldemort did not hear the whole prophecy. The orb was destroyed in the fight and no one heard it, including Harry and Nevile. DD told Harry the prophecy. (Sorry, but am at work and do not have my book to provide canon) Julie From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 22:44:16 2004 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:44:16 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102751 Julie said: > BUt VOldemort did not hear the whole prophecy. The orb was > destroyed in the fight and no one heard it, including Harry and > Nevile. DD told Harry the prophecy. (Sorry, but am at work and do > not have my book to provide canon True. Well, actually DD shows Harry the prophecy, from his pensieve (pg. 841). So, I guess, it can be assumed it's accurate. There's still a record of the prophesy (DD, that smart guy!) Probono, however, still has a point. If Voldemort has only heard the first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Or does he believe that Neville is weak (like everybody else) and unable of being the one. After all, shouldn't his defeat be caused by a person of great power? Which makes me wonder if the idea posted awhile back (sorry, I don't remember who) that Neville's powers may have been surpressed either by his parents or maybe Gran? After all, seeing her son nearly killed might drive her to protect her grandson from the same fate. And then there's the whole issue of using his father's wand... Neville has to have more to do with this than we've been seeing so far. He has too. Wouldn't it be funny if Neville kills Voldemort in the end? Hrmmmmm.......... Christy (who now wonders what kind of evidence she can dig up for this) From probono at rapidnet.com Thu Jun 24 22:59:15 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:59:15 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102752 >Christy: >If Voldemort has only heard the > first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Or does > he believe that Neville is weak (like everybody else) and unable of > being the one. After all, shouldn't his defeat be caused by a person > of great power? Which makes me wonder if the idea posted awhile back > (sorry, I don't remember who) that Neville's powers may have been > surpressed either by his parents or maybe Gran? After all, seeing her > son nearly killed might drive her to protect her grandson from the > same fate. And then there's the whole issue of using his father's wand... > > Neville has to have more to do with this than we've been seeing so > far. He has too. Wouldn't it be funny if Neville kills Voldemort in > the end? Hrmmmmm.......... > > Christy > (who now wonders what kind of evidence she can dig up for this) Probono: How about, "Longbottom causes devastation with the simplest spells." COS U.S. p. 163 A little joke of Snape's....or is it? Okay, no canon evidence here, I just thought it was funny. ;D probono (who, seriously, is going to look into this further as well) From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 24 23:03:30 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:03:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102753 | From: allison_m_otto | Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:28 AM | | (on a personal note, I've been home from school for rare vacations | during times when my parents were working, and we didn't exactly have | a lot of time to hang out when they were gone most of the day). | | It's probably just as hard, or near impossible, for her to go off for | a skiing holiday when her mind is on her friends who had to run from | school in the middle of the night. She has no reason (yet) to | believe anything will happen to her parents; she does have reason to | worry about Harry and the Weasleys. | | I think, as involved as Hermione has been in various events - which, | since the end of PoA, remain unresolved because Peter has escaped and | Sirius is still a fugitive - it must be very difficult for her to | take a long break and concentrate on her family who don't understand | what's been happening to her. This doesn't mean she doesn't like | them, it just means she has things weighing on her mind that distract | her. [Lee]: All wonderful thoughts, including the snippage, with which I can agree. And, I like this next part: [Allison]: | | PS - presumably, like Dean, she doesn't tell her parents about her | near-death experiences because she doesn't want them to worry over | her or forbid her from going back to school. The fact that they're | out of the loop doesn't mean they don't talk about other things. I'm | guessing there are plenty of things Ron hasn't told Molly - for | example, I'd be very surprised if she knew the whole story about him | being out on the grounds shackled to a werewolf in PoA. [Lee]: And don't forget that the twins kept a lot of stuff back from Molly, too. Not that they didn't love her...not at all...but they knew she wouldn't understand them nor would she try to because they were operating on a different path than she desired. They didn't tell her about the money Harry had given them; they didn't tell her about betting at the QWC; they didn't tell her about being taken by Bagman... Etc. It's often really tough for parents; they build up these big dreams for their kids and then have to suffer a huge crash when the kids strike out on dreams of their own which are in complete opposite to the dreams of the parents. And, unfortunately, that's when the rifting process may start. I congratulate parents who realize that they can only go so far with their kids and then have to let them chase their own dreams, even if they seem--uh--harebrain. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Thu Jun 24 23:03:49 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:03:49 -0000 Subject: Names/Flamel's brain/WARNING: Ron=DD posting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102754 If Ron does go back in time to circa 1858 and become DD then I think we must assume one of three things (though you may be able to think of more): a) There was until that point in time no such person as Albus Dumbledore. Ron, presumably under instructions from the future, assumes the persona of a 17 year old DD,and uses those particular names, because those are DD's names in the future. (Though does Ron know them?; I believe only Harry has heard them). b)There was an Albus DD, born c1841, who now disappears by himself travelling through time perhaps forwards to become Ron Weasley. c)There was an Albus DD who has died at some point between birth and 17 and whose identity Ron assumes, in 'Day of the Jackal' fashion. In either of the latter two cases, Ron would assume names already given to the first Albus. But I wonder whether the Percival might not have been added by Ron as a tribute to a certain git who died redeeming past behaviour. If Ron has been permanently marked by the brain as suggested, then might this account for DD's amazing feats at NEWT level and indeed thereafter? (And explain why Marchbanks made no connection between perfectly average Ron and exceptional DD). Leah (who finds the Ron/DD theory interesting to explore but is not yet a paid up member) From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jun 24 23:11:48 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:11:48 -0400 Subject: Sirius's Mirror (was Re: Harry's summer in the 6th book??) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102755 | From: vmonte | Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:18 AM | I just had a thought. Maybe the mirror WILL work for Harry to speak | to Sirius. But maybe he is going to reach the Sirius of the past. [Lee]: Well, he's first gonna have to repair it as it is presently in shattered form at the bottom of his trunk...and he can't very well repair it during the summer without calling attension from the MOM. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 24 23:10:37 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:10:37 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DBEC0D.2364.4302F6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102756 As the person who seems to have started this discussion, and who seems to have been quite misunderstood as to what he was saying, I just want to raise a few issues here. First of all, just to repeat, that I never intended to suggest for a second that Hermione didn't have a loving relationship with her parents, or an unaffectionate relationship with her parents. The reason for that confusion seems to be that the word 'estrange' has multiple definitions - some of these definitions involve a lessening of affection, but by no means all. A significant number of people seem to have only encountered the definitions which include loss of affection. But that is only one defition. Just to give a couple of examples from online dictionaries. Merriam-Webster Tenth Edition: 1 : to remove from customary environment or associations 2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness Dictionary.com 1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate. 2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations. As I say, it's a word with multiple definitions. I was using it more in the sense of the 1st from Merriam-Webster and 2nd from Dictionary.com. I was not intending to claim for a moment that Hermione and her parents have lost their love and affection. The reason I used the term 'estranged' is because it's the term I use in some of the work I do in gifted children. Unfortunately, here in Australia, it's not uncommon for the parents of gifted children to have to send their children to schools that are culturally quite different from what they would otherwise experience. In my case, my working class parents were forced to send me to one of the country's most expensive and prestigious private schools so I could get the education I needed. A very different culture (nowhere near as big as the potential one we see in Hermione's life, of course!). I know of other cases where Jewish families have found themselves needed to choose a Baptist school. Or where a couple of genuine Hippies wound up having to send their kids to a rigidly conservative, highly disciplined education environment. More often than not, these decisions don't cause any major problems. But there's a sizeable minority of cases where they do lead to various issues arising in a family, including 'estrangement'. This is the term we use for cases where cultural differences between the school culture and the home culture cause any form of unusual distance between members of a family. It *rarely* means that there is a diminishment of affection. In fact, I've never personally encountered a case where parents and child wound up loving each other less, in the dozen or so I've dealt with personally, and I've only ever heard of that happening once out of dozens of cases (and there were other issues involved there as well). I used the term 'estranged' in a fairly technical sense. It might have been better if I'd used a different word - but for the life of me, I can't find one. *Every* similar term has multiple definitions, and in every case some of those multiple definitions carry a context of loss of affection, or hostility or something similar. It's be nice sometimes if English was a language where every word had *precisely one* definition (-8 On 24 Jun 2004 at 14:27, allison_m_otto wrote: > I also think there is some evidence that when Hermione is with her > parents, they seem to have an affectionate relationship (she > does "gently" disengage from her mother at the end of OoP). However, > I also think there are really good explanations for why she would be > eager to spend time at school or with Ron and Harry during the > holidays. > PS - presumably, like Dean, she doesn't tell her parents about her > near-death experiences because she doesn't want them to worry over > her or forbid her from going back to school. The fact that they're > out of the loop doesn't mean they don't talk about other things. I'm > guessing there are plenty of things Ron hasn't told Molly - for > example, I'd be very surprised if she knew the whole story about him > being out on the grounds shackled to a werewolf in PoA. The problem is though, while Hermione might well have 'really good explanations' for why she is eager to spend time at school or with Ron or Harry during the holidays - that doesn't mean that the decision may still not be disappointing to her parents. In Goblet of Fire, Hermione is away from home for ten and a half months - she comes home - and it looks like about a week later, she's off again to spend the rest of her holidays with her friend, Ron and his family. After ten and a half months, her parents get to see her for a *week*. If Hermione *does* have loving parents, I really think they are going to be disappointed at that happening. They plan a ski trip at Christmas - they are going to take their daughter on holiday. At this point they haven't seen her for five and a half months. They meet her at King's Cross Station - and immediately she tells them she's going to stay with Ron and his family. (This is how the times seem to work out). Six months later they meet her at King's Cross Station again. What happens there? First of all, Molly Weasley apparently manages to greet Hermione even before her parents do (and while it isn't explicit in this case, Molly seems like the type who would greet her with a hug). When Hermione *finally* makes contact with her parents, she hugs them for a moment then 'disengages gently' from her mother - and walks off to join a group that includes the Weasley family! If I was Mr and Mrs Granger, the more I loved my daughter, the more hurt I would be by all of this. From their perspective, their daughter wants to spend more time with the Weasleys than she does them. Yes, *we* may be able to see that Hermione has good reasons for these decisions. But like you say, I'm also pretty convinced that Hermione doesn't tell her parents much of what is going on to stop them worrying. I really doubt she explained to them: "I have to go stay with Ron's family because my Headmaster is worried that the most evil Wizard on the planet has returned and he might try to kill all of us." or "I have to stay with Ron's family because I intend to help defeat the most evil Wizard on the planet." Or anything like that. At Christmas, did she tell her parents: "I need to go and stay with Ron because my friend Harry - you know the one, personal enemy of the most evil Wizard on the planet - had a vision in which a giant snake tried to eat Ron's dad!" Mr and Mrs Granger have sent their daughter off into a very alien world, and by her fourth year at the school, she's stopped coming home for more than a week at a time. She's blown off a skiing trip with her parents to stay with a Wizarding family. And in all probability, the reasons she's given them for this are very innocuous - nowhere near important enough to justify what she is doing to them. It's likely it looks to them like excuses. They may still love their daughter incredibly - in fact, the strongest expression of that love may be the fact that they are (from their perspective) letting her live in the world she wants to, no matter how much it *hurts* them. But honestly... I'd be hard pressed to see how they can still be having a healthy real relationship with their daughter. One weeks contact in 20 months? And a a daughter, who it seems likely is concealing large aspects of her life from them? If they love each other, it may be that they'll be able to rebuild a new relationship, but I really doubt that what they have at the moment is particularly healthy. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 23:52:58 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:52:58 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > How does Dumbledore know exactly what is happening on Privet Drive and how > is he able to send a Howler minutes after Vernon tells Harry to get out? Meri: I think the popular theory is that DD's put-outer, which was used at Privet Drive at the begining of SS put up some sort of early warning system that let DD know exactly what was going on at the Dursleys. This could also explain why the MoM knew about Dobby's magic in CoS and about Aunt Marge being exploded in PoA. I can't remember though if the put-outer was used differently in OotP. > I can totally understand Harry's anger and hurt at being left out of things > when he is the one that has had to endure the trauma and havoc wreaked by > VM. Not only has he handled himself well enough to be told what is going on, > but he has suffered so much and then feels like people have abandoned him > just when he needs them most. Meri: I absolutely agree. Harry is not only fifteen years old, but far more experienced in fighting off evil than Ron, Hermione or most of the Weasleys. He is not a child anymore and Harry is right in thinking that he was being treated like a "naughty boy" who did something wrong. IMHO, DD should have been way up front with Harry right after the GoF ressurection scene. Harry should have been told of the prophecy then, and everything should have been explained to him, no matter the risk that LV might find out. > Does Lucius Malfoy know Sirius is an Animagus? When the trio, et al, are > riding the Hogwarts Express, and Draco says he'll be "dogging" Harry's > footsteps, Harry and Hermione both wonder if Draco knows something about > Sirius. > > "What if Mr. Malfoy had noticed the black dog and told Draco, what if he had > deduced that the Weasleys, Lupin, Tonks and Moody knew where Sirius was > hiding?" OOTP p. 194 Meri: I guarantee Wormtail spilled the beans to LV about the animagus thing, and LV will also probably know about Lupin being a werewolf, though I don't know what implications that will have. snip > Back to Umbridge for a second. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees the > similarities between what she does and the McCarthy era hearings. She > certainly resembles a dictator. It's ridiculous (in our society anyway, not > necessarily in the WW) to have someone able to give themselves supreme > power, without that being voted on or approved by the people she has power > over! I was outraged reading those pages again! Meri: I think that DU is one of JKR's more brilliant creations. She is one of the most henious, vile, nasty villians ever to appear in a kids book, right up there with the Trunchbull from "Matilda" and...well, I can't even think of any one else right now who quite so ESE. I shudder anytime I read about her sickening, simpering laughs, and I want to smack the book shut whenever I read "hem hem"! > I thought it was interesting that in spite of the continued division between > the houses, three of them manage to come together in the form of DA. It > would have been really cool if there had been one or two Slytherins who > overheard Hermione and Ron recruiting for DA and wanted to join, but I think > the way things are written, it couldn't have happened. Harry, his friends > and even his house, I think, don't trust the Slytherins enough not to think > that they would be spied on or "arming" a future DE. Meri: Yes, where oh where are the good Slytherins? I think that this one dimensional portrayal of Slytherin house is one of the big faults with the books, hopefully to be rectified in the future. snip > I found some parts of the book very funny (although I can't quote them at > the moment). That was a nice contrast to all the stuff that Umbridge was > putting them through. I think the funniest parts (although they were more > touching than funny) were the parts with Cho (when she wasn't crying!). > Harry discovering how it feels when a girl likes him, getting kissed, > holding hands, etc. I think those were the best parts of his whole year. Meri: What about F&G blowing off some really cool steam by pissing of DU, and blowing school? Or Ginny bringing chocolate in the library? Or anything Luna says? Or, perhaps my second favorite line in the book, after Harry's overtly frustrating Valentine's Day date with Cho: "Women!" Or Kreacher. When he wasn't being a psycho, he was actually doing a pretty hysterical Gollum impression. snip > I vaguely recall some discussion about Neville showing some powerful > abilities, but I didn't really see that. What I did see is proof that he is > rightfully in Gryffindor! He showed such bravery to be by Harry's side the > whole time! I was very impressed with that. Meri: Yes, Neville is the MAN! I loved how he stood up to Bellatrix LeStrange and how he got turtured and didn't crack. He did Ma and Pa Longbottom proud, but I also think that with a whole new wand we could see a whole new Neville. And what the heck was that > brain-thing doing to Ron? Actually there was so much happening in those > couple chapters, I might have to read them again to absorb it all. Meri: Maybe this was wrong of me (or maybe in the tension I just needed something to laugh at) but I thought this part was hysterical. When Ron, all daffy, goes, "look, brains" or something and then accios them right at himself, I was laughing too hard to be scared for him. But then I really lost is when he said "No, I don't like this anymore" and was half laughing and half screaming RUN RON, because of course I was worried that he'd be the one to die. snip > This was an excellent book. Very long but well worth it. I think the only > parts that might have been a bit extraneous were the parts with Grawp. But > who knows if he'll play a larger role in the next 2 books. Maybe JKR had to > set him up a bit in this book for the future. Meri: I guess part of the genius of JKR's storytelling is that we don't know what we'll need to know in the future, after all, Sirius was in book one and how many of us remembered that when we read PoA for the first time, be honest. > Ultimately I am just so sad for Harry. What a life he's had! How much > sadness he has had to endure! What a year! It was probably the only year > he's ever been at Hogwarts that he was miserable or unhappy most of the > time. And yet, he still didn't want to go back to the Dursleys, so that > tells you how awful it is there! Meri: Yes, the poor kid. Here's hoping that despite what JKR says about the books getting darker that at least something good will happen to Harry soon. Maybe he'll be Quidditch captain. That'd be nice, eh? Meri - who just wants to take Harry home with her and make it all better... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 23:56:03 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:56:03 -0000 Subject: The Map and the War (WAS: Malfoys' knowledge of Padfoot) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" wrote: > After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information > about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about > Sirius as an unregistered animagus. > > Haggridd And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the first war? Meri From peckham at cyberramp.net Fri Jun 25 00:29:38 2004 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:29:38 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, marshbur at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would > > be the Dursleys. > > > > The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because > > he spends time with his blood related family. So, if > > Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be > > to kill the Dursleys? > > So, it occurred to me that the protection afforded Harry may be a > two-way street; that is, as long as the Dursleys provide Harry a home, > they are also protected from VM and the DEs. It would be a very > reasonable explanation for why Petunia insists that Harry stay in OotP. > > The true nature of the protection has thusfar not been revealed to us, > until it is, or until we at least have more details about the nature > of the protection, it's hard to imagine VM figuring it out. It seems > DD has some inklings about the nature, but he hasn't told, so far. > maybe that will be a plot point in book 6 or 7. > > cheers, > -david David, There is a variant of your arguement that should also be considered. The core of Harry's protection is based on the sacrafice of Lily's blood. What would the sacrifice of more blood from the same line, willing or unwilling, do to this protection? Is it possible that an attack by Voldemort or his followers on the Dursleys could increase the level of protection that Harry has? Umtil Voldemort knows enough to answer questions like these, the Dursleys are probably safe from him. Allen From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 25 01:27:35 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:27:35 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catimini15" wrote: > Maybe it is Croker who visited Bode... But if the kids recognized > Bode lying in his bed as the bloke whom they saw at the World > Quidditch Cup a few months before, they would have recognize Croker > as well standing near St. Mungo's welcome desk. > > A couple of months ago (I'm sorry, I couldn't find the posts) there > was speculations that the visitor was Wormtail in disguise with his > silver hand transfigured into a hearing device. > > I would like to stress the word ?disguise? because I came across > something interesting while I was rereading GoF. In the first > chapter (The Riddle House), Wormtail tries to convince Voldy to use > another wizard instead of Harry (for the dark magic rebirth potion) > and he says : ?You know that I can disguise myself most > effectively.? Is Wormtail referring to his hability as an animagus > or is he mentionning other ways of successfully transforming his > appearance ? > > I think the visitor was a DE nevertheless... > > Nadine ;-) imamommy: Perhaps the visitor was a metamorphagus? Tonks' rare gift seems like the sort of thing that will come into greater prominence in the next two books. Can anyone think of a DE who might possibly have this talent? From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 25 01:38:24 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:38:24 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > They come by ancient houses... > > they're bound by enchantment of their kind.. (doesn't sound like a > wizard put the spell, but that the elf did it!) > > They're to (ideally) serve one family and one house for ever (says > Dobby). (And, by the way Dobby acts, Dobby could be Harry's personal house- > elf!) > Dunno, maybe Dobby WAS a Potter house-elf, but since all the Potters > died and Harry went to live with Muggles (and the house exploded) he > ended up with Malfoys. Still, Dobby's bounded to Harry - the last of > the Family... (which is why he *could* leave the house! unless we're > to find that Harry's related to Malfoys...) imamommy: I've wondered about the possiblity of Dobby becoming Harry's house elf. It seems that he is bound to Harry by love, which seems to be the overpowering theme of these books. Finwitch: > Hermione and her SPEW - well, if she was to truly help the elves > free, to get well-treated, respected etc. Why, I ask, why did she NOT > give the elves some respect by asking what they want instead of > coming up with things like "pay, clothes, retirement...". After all, > that's what the conditions of work with Guilds/Unions was about: What > the Workers wanted and then a compromise with the employers to get > some of it. Hermione begins her SPEW and protests without speaking to > anyone involved... > > -- Finwitch imamommy: Here, here! She's *offending* them, or pity's sake. I don't think many elves will rally to her cause, and it's going to be tough to champion a cause for people who are against it. I really would like more on the historical roots of this practice. Perhaps one of Professor Binns' upcoming lectures? From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 02:07:52 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:07:52 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40DAB3A8.24269.59FFA9F@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102762 Alla: > > > I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the > answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy > enough to raise my hand all the time. > > I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I > indeed raised my hand. Shaun relied: Whereas, I can remember about a dozen... it's one of those areas where experiences can differ greatly. Now as I've said before, I work with gifted kids, and I was one. Teacher hostility towards students who always answer the questions is quite a common experience for these kids. It occurs for multiple reasons - sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as disruptive in some ways, because it discourages others from answering. Sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as a form of boasting. Sometimes it's because the teacher regards it as somehow unfair to other students to let the bright child be too obvious. Sometimes the teacher is a rotten teacher - other times, they may actually be a very good teacher, just not specifically informed or trained about teaching this specific population. >snipped Shaun< Some teachers certainly do view these children as a plus in their classrooms - but the opposite is a very recognised problem. I'm glad you didn't experience it - but it is very common indeed. Snow replies: My one child was accepted into what we call the gifted program (in our home town in the U.S.) and has always had to deal with, what I call opposite prejudice, being gifted since she was five in kindergarten. I have seen teachers that can allow her to excel and I have also seen teachers who feel almost threatened by her. Having dealt with many teachers of many opinions towards her, I feel confident that Snape is not the type of teacher who would be threatened by this type of student's abilities. In fact, the child I am referring to said she would prefer Snape's teaching because "He expects" according to her. The abuse type issue isn't a factor to her, because she doesn't look at it in that way. Snape isn't abusive but demanding. Snape goads Harry in much the same way that Umbridge did. He pushes Harry's buttons in an attempt to make him control his emotions and Harry can't control them any more than he was able to control them with Umbridge. McGonnagel attempts to teach Harry that he needs to control his emotions with Umbridge and Harry still can't abide. Snape isn't Umbridge thank goodness but I feel he was still trying to get that message across about respect and controlling your emotions. My other child is of the opposite spectrum of the gifted class of people having had an operation at the age of 15 mos. that rendered her almost speechless among other things and in much need of care. I have also dealt with many people, who in her life expected, what I thought at the time to be too much. (not unlike the feelings many have about Snape) I have since this terrific incident, many years ago, been made aware that it is the Snape type of attitude (like my other daughter says) that allows them to learn. "Expect it" and in Snapes case demand it. You only get what you are looking for. If you only see a person as unable to do something, I assure you they wont let you down, but if your expectations are set higher than your belief, to your astonishment they will succeed. I actually see Snape as the type of teacher, in both children's scenarios, who expects that person to learn. We'll have to see if any of his "abused" students let him down in the OWLS. I don't think they will and I feel that is credited to the teacher. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jun 25 02:14:01 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:14:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents Message-ID: <68.40b91bff.2e0ce469@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102763 In a message dated 6/24/2004 11:33:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, allisonotto at gmail.com writes: > I'm guessing there are plenty of things Ron hasn't told Molly - for > example, I'd be very surprised if she knew the whole story about him > being out on the grounds shackled to a werewolf in PoA. I'm wondering how he explained the clock, which must have been pointing to 'Mortal Peril' The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 21:29:50 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:29:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102764 Del: *snip* > Let's read the scene03-604 > "Harry," said a hoarse voice in Harry's ear. "Hermione..." > Harry looked round and saw Hagrid's enormous bearded face (snip > description of Hagrid) > "Listen," he whispered, "can yeh come with me ? Now ? While > ev'ryone's > watchin' the match ?" > "Er... can't it wait, Hagrid ?" asked Harry. "Till the match is > over ?" > "No," said Hagrid. "No, Harry, it's gotta be now... while ev'ryone's > lookin' the other way... please ?" > Hagrid's nose was gently dripping blood. His eyes were both > blackened. > Harry had not seen him this close-up since his return to the school; > he looked utterly woebegone. > "Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come." > > It's pretty clear to me that Hermione wasn't consulted at all in this > decision. Hagrid talked to Harry, and Harry said " *we* will come". > Of > course, Hermione could still have refused to go, but that would have > been showing a huge lack of loyalty to both Harry and Hagrid. She was > stuck, she had to go, whether she wanted to or not. I think it's pretty clear that *Harry* didn't really want to go with Hagrid either, but he was willing to do so - as was Hermione - because they could see that their friend needed them. I wouldn't read the fact that Hagrid spoke to Harry and Harry answered for both of them as indicating any type of unhealthy one- sidedness to the relationship; rather, I read it as indicating nothing more than that Harry knows Hermione well enough to know that she would never snub a friend who really needs her just to watch a Quidditch match...even one that does involve Ron. She could have said no; she wasn't "stuck," any moreso than Harry was "stuck" when Hagrid asked him to go. If either of them had said no, it would have been a slap in the face to Hagrid, but they both *chose* to go, because Hagrid is their friend...not because they were forced by Hagrid (or Hermione by Harry). --Cory From cinnamoroll at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 22:47:48 2004 From: cinnamoroll at gmail.com (Rellie) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:47:48 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <104026cb04062415479629bb6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102765 Julie: >>BUt VOldemort did not hear the whole prophecy. The orb was destroyed in the fight and no one heard it, including Harry and Nevile. DD told Harry the prophecy. (Sorry, but am at work and do not have my book to provide canon) >> Yep, I think that's what they are talking about. They are talking about voldemort only hearing the first part of the prophecy, which leads to him not realizing the part about about "marking" the child. Thus he only knows that the child born can defeat him. So that does makes neville more vulnerable. Another thing, isn't it kind of fore-seeing, because neville was the one who destroyed the prophecy Voldemort wants? It's sort of like him "against" voldemort, because it was what voldemort wants. And look, in book 1-4, Harry has defied Voldemort 3 times (And the prophecy talks about the parents defying vold. 3 times each.), and though harry was the "leader" in the MoM battle, he wasn't the person who "got rid" of voldemort in the end. And yet Neville, had got rid of what Voldemort wanted. "Rellie" From cinnamoroll at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 22:58:56 2004 From: cinnamoroll at gmail.com (Rellie) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:58:56 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <104026cb0406241558463422ef@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102766 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > But they can expel students, for a great variety of reasons, it > seems. The threat of expulsion seems to be very much on the > students' minds, especially Hermione's. If a student is expelled > from the ONLY wizarding school in England, isn't that tantamount to > a right to deny an education to children? What happens to kids who > are expelled? I guess Hagrid is an example - there doesn't seem to > be any safety net for people who don't comply with the conditions at > Hogwarts. Yes, but however, though they threaten, it's more so of an empty threat, unless of course, you are "evidenced" to be the one who sic creatures that kill onto your fellow students. Look at what Draco, Ron and Harry, and even Sirius has done. Sirius almost sent Severus to his death, and he didn't get expelled. Draco, and the Gryffindors, have such public brawls again and again, yet they didn't get expelled. In "normal", well muggle schools, if you repeatedly commit such offences, you will definitely get expelled. I believe the rules there for expulsion is rather lax compared to muggle schools, thus there is not really so much a danger of one not having the "right" to education. And who knows, depends on what the reason that you were expelled for were, you might be able to go to the other two wizarding schools. Maybe Hagrid did not get accepted, for perhaps for the other two, maybe you have to pay fees or something. They seem like more of the "privileged" schools for rich kids instead of open for all types of public schools. Just look at their robes, FUR and SILK? From luzzatto at via-rs.net Thu Jun 24 23:01:12 2004 From: luzzatto at via-rs.net (Carla M. Luzzatto) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:01:12 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Neville Re: Alice Longbottom Message-ID: <000e01c45a3f$25bf9ad0$2201a8c0@mami> No: HPFGUIDX 102767 Mo wrote: "I think Neville keeps the wrappers as a sentimental attachment to his mom. I don't think he thinks they are clues to something. HOWVER, I think in the next book he WILL start to think something and then piece the clues together. I also think he will be the one to gain extra powers in the next two books. Mamibunny now: I think Neville will be very much important to the plot in the next book, and the two boys (which are possibly referred to in the prophecy) will be nearly equal in powers - powers unknown yet - and they will support each other in the fight against LV. Cheers Mamibunny From soleta_nf at yahoo.ca Fri Jun 25 00:37:48 2004 From: soleta_nf at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?House=20Yolande?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Map and the War (WAS: Malfoys' knowledge of Padfoot) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040625003748.98085.qmail@web40411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102768 Haggridd wrote: After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about Sirius as an unregistered animagus. Then Meri wrote: And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the first war? Now Yolande writes: I would say no since Peter Pettigrew worked for LV in the first war as well. Perhaps Peter just didn't get around to sharing that information before Godric's Hollow. But if attacking Hogwarts was a priority, I think he would have told LV. Although that would mean the DE's have known this information (Sirius an animagus, secret passages, etc.) for years... What do others think? Yolande (This is only my second post on this list - the last one being from last summer. Chronic lurker here, be gentle! :) --------------------------------- L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From luzzatto at via-rs.net Thu Jun 24 23:47:34 2004 From: luzzatto at via-rs.net (Carla M. Luzzatto) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:47:34 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville in the end Re: Neville and the Prophecy Message-ID: <002001c45a45$9f5a1220$2201a8c0@mami> No: HPFGUIDX 102769 Christy said: True. Well, actually DD shows Harry the prophecy, from his pensieve (pg. 841). So, I guess, it can be assumed it's accurate. There's still a record of the prophesy (DD, that smart guy!) Probono, however, still has a point. If Voldemort has only heard the first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Or does he believe that Neville is weak (like everybody else) and unable of being the one. After all, shouldn't his defeat be caused by a person of great power? Which makes me wonder if the idea posted awhile back (sorry, I don't remember who) that Neville's powers may have been surpressed either by his parents or maybe Gran? After all, seeing her son nearly killed might drive her to protect her grandson from the same fate. And then there's the whole issue of using his father's wand... Neville has to have more to do with this than we've been seeing so far. He has too. Wouldn't it be funny if Neville kills Voldemort in the end? Hrmmmmm.......... Mamibunny now: That is exactly what I think: Neville, in the end, is the boy who will defeat LV. I think that he was safe behind the appearence of weakness and magic incapacity, while Harry atracted all the attention during the many years they -- the two boys -- were growing up. Just in case, DD put Harry under protection if LV came back too soon -- and DD knew that he would come back someday. Both boys, during eleven years, were safe under charms: Harry at the Dursley?s house/companion, and Neville maybe under a memory or reduced-powers charm (provided by DD). I think it is possible that both boys will be in the last figth against LV -- together -- and Neville will have his abilities completly restored, so he can defeat LV. This is my theory and I?m reading OotP by now, looking for evidences to support it. I hope Harry doesn't die in this fight -- like JKR left possible since she never said he won't. Cheers Mamibunny ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asalvador at sjs.org Fri Jun 25 02:05:37 2004 From: asalvador at sjs.org (Salvador, Anjali) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:05:37 -0500 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background Message-ID: <307990-2200465252537462@sjs.org> No: HPFGUIDX 102770 "How long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" Professor Umbridge asked. "Thirty-nine years this December," said Professor McGonagall brusquely, snapping her bag shut. -Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 321 (American edition) Was anyone other than myself confused by this? Why would McGonagall have started teaching in December? After all, she teaches Transfiguration, and in CoS it says that Dumbledore taught Transfiguration himself, so she, presumably was his successor. What, though, would have made Dumbledore stop teaching in the middle of the year? The Harry Potter Lexicon says that Dumbledore became headmaster in 1970 or 1971-after McGonagall began teaching, because she would have started in 1956. Unless, of course, she began teaching a subject other than Transfiguration. This is possible, of course, but I find it unlikely considering the fact that Transfiguration is undoubtedly her specialty (evidence being that she is an Animagus). This brings me to my next point-what did McGonagall do before teaching? I find it incredibly interesting that she was only a year ahead of Tom Riddle. The Chamber of Secrets would have been opened during the last half of her sixth year at Hogwarts, not to mention that Grindlewald would be coming to power sometime around this period. Also, when did McGonagall become an Animagus? It makes sense that Dumbledore would have taught her if she had learned at Hogwarts, but does this mean that he is an Animagus as well? In addition, what did she do after graduating-an Auror, perhaps? McGonagall was quite vehement in her support of Harry's ambition to become an Auror; this might have stemmed from being an Auror herself. She certainly must have been a formidable witch; recall Pomfrey's "As if one of them could have stunned Minerva McGonagall face on by daylight!" Did McGonagall help Dumbledore in his defeat of Grindlewald? She would have graduated by then and had two years to go through any sort of training. They certainly would have known each other, given McGonagall's gift for Transfiguration. I won't bring up the question of why Dumbledore, a schoolteacher, would have been involved in bringing down a Dark wizard in the first place. This is my first post, so I apologize if these questions have been covered in previous discussions. Anjali From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 02:28:07 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:28:07 -0000 Subject: Names/Flamel's brain/WARNING: Ron=DD posting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102771 Leah wrote: In either of the latter two cases, Ron would assume names already given to the first Albus. But I wonder whether the Percival might not have been added by Ron as a tribute to a certain git who died redeeming past behaviour. If Ron has been permanently marked by the brain as suggested, then might this account for DD's amazing feats at NEWT level and indeed thereafter? (And explain why Marchbanks made no connection between perfectly average Ron and exceptional DD). Leah (who finds the Ron/DD theory interesting to explore but is not yet a paid up member) vmonte responds: I also think that the name Percival is a tribute to Percy. I recently read somewhere that the actor who places Percy was told by JKR that Percy may redeem himself in the end. I've been thinking about the brain attack. I do think that Ron will gain knowledge via someone elses memories, but I think that if he does become a Seer, it will not be because of the brain. I think he may have this as a natural gift (or rather curse). The brain may jump start this latent ability. Who knows... I was also thinking that if Ron goes back in time when he is 17, he may stay with a family there, since he is so young. I've posted this thought before but what if he goes back in time and becomes Flamel's apprentice. He could learn a lot from him right? And maybe the brain that attacked him was Flamel's. If so, he would know where to go and look for him in the past. One other comment, the Flamel's may learn to view Ron as part of their family. The son they never had. If so, it would make sense why DD kept the PS/SS at the school. He may have been trying to protect his adoptive family. vivian - with no canon to support anything... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 02:37:53 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:37:53 -0000 Subject: Ron as Seer? Was: Re: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: snip. > I can imagine Ron falling asleep in Trelawny's class next year when > he suddenly snaps alert and begins speaking in that eerie Seer > voice: > > 'She who spoke the prophecy will die at the hands of the dark lord...' snip > vivian Alla: LOL! It is very funny, but I would prefer Ron to make an actual prediction, if he indeed will become a Seer. Hmmm... "Maybe you are going to work for the Ministry of Magic..." (poA, p.81). Who knows, maybe this one will turn out to be true. After all, Rowling only said that seventeen is too young to become involved in politics, she did not say that Harry will never become Minister of Magic. :o) From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 02:40:55 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:40:55 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > >Christy: > >If Voldemort has only heard the > > first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Or > does > > he believe that Neville is weak (like everybody else) and unable of > > being the one. After all, shouldn't his defeat be caused by a > person > > of great power? Which makes me wonder if the idea posted awhile > back > > (sorry, I don't remember who) that Neville's powers may have been > > surpressed either by his parents or maybe Gran? After all, seeing > her > > son nearly killed might drive her to protect her grandson from the > > same fate. And then there's the whole issue of using his father's > wand... > > > > Neville has to have more to do with this than we've been seeing so > > far. He has too. Wouldn't it be funny if Neville kills Voldemort in > > the end? Hrmmmmm.......... > > > > Christy > > (who now wonders what kind of evidence she can dig up for this) > > Probono: How about, "Longbottom causes devastation with the simplest > spells." COS U.S. p. 163 > > A little joke of Snape's....or is it? Okay, no canon evidence here, > I just thought it was funny. ;D > > probono (who, seriously, is going to look into this further as well) I also think Neville is going to play a big role in things to come. I've always wondered about his powers being suppressed, but if that were the case, why was his family so relieved when he went bouncing down the sidewalk after Uncle Algy dropped him from the balcony? This leads me to believe that someone other than his gran or uncle is suppressing his memory/powers, if they are indeed being suppressed. I also think the suppression of his powers would be more than simply having his father's wand, given that his family was looking for evidence of magic prior to his enrolling in Hogwarts. Unless, are children of wizarding families able to experiment with wands prior to school? Julie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 02:54:31 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:54:31 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > Shaun: > snip > > > > Until Neville was 8, his family was worried he was a squib - all- > > Muggle, as he calls it here. Neville's bouncing showed that her > > wasn't a squib. > > > > But it's quite clear that that didn't mean Neville was going to go > > to Hogwarts. It's quite clear from what Neville says that "They > > were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy." and > > "And you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they > > thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see." are separate > > incidents. He's talking about two separate occasions. Even after it > > became clear Neville wasn't a squib, his family were still > > concerned he might not be 'magic enough' for Hogwarts. > > > > Alla: > > Right, Neville's family was concerned that he was not MAGICAL ENOUGH > to get in Hogwarts and I was saying that every child FULLY MAGICAL > gets admitted. > > Sorry, but what I deducted from that paragraph was that Neville's > family was worried that his magic was not strong enough. That he > still could be.... I don't know.. Half-squib? (Is it even possible to > be half-squib? :o)) > > Besides, do you remember JKR interview quote about mamgical quill, > which writes in the book the names of all magical children born, who > get letters? I found it. Here is the relevant part. "Question: How can two Muggles have a kid with magical powers? Also how does the Ministry of Magic find out these kids have powers? A. It's the same as two black-haired people producing a redheaded child. Sometimes these things just happen, and no one really knows why! The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11. " Scholastic Online chat, February 2000. I think the last sentence implies that every magical child gets Hogwarts letter. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 25 03:12:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:12:41 -0000 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background In-Reply-To: <307990-2200465252537462@sjs.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102776 "Salvador, Anjali" wrote: > "How long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" Professor Umbridge > asked. > "Thirty-nine years this December," said Professor McGonagall > brusquely, snapping her bag shut. > -Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 321 (American > edition) > > Was anyone other than myself confused by this? Why would McGonagall > have started teaching in December? After all, she teaches > Transfiguration, and in CoS it says that Dumbledore taught > Transfiguration himself, so she, presumably was his successor. What, > though, would have made Dumbledore stop teaching in the middle of the > year? > Potioncat: Good questions. I snipped most of your post with the details. Actually I think there is a lot we don't know. We know Dippet was the Headmaster during Tom Riddle's days. But do we know who the deputy headmaster was. We don't really know if DD continued at Hogwarts until he became Headmaster or if he went to some other activity and returned. Was he ever the Deputy Headmaster? We also don't know if the school was ever larger than it is now and perhaps had more than one Transfiguration teacher. We also know DD is skilled in several areas and may have taught a different subject for a while. While it would seem that the Deputy Headmaster would become the next Headmaster, Madam Derwent was a Healer at ST Mungo's and left there to become Headmistress of Hogwarts. But it does seem that something happened that December to cause McGonagall to come on in mid year. Potioncat who once again has more questions than answers. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 03:30:09 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:30:09 -0000 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > "Salvador, Anjali" wrote: > What, > > though, would have made Dumbledore stop teaching in the middle of the year? > > > > Potioncat: > Good questions. I snipped most of your post with the details. > > Actually I think there is a lot we don't know. We know Dippet was > the Headmaster during Tom Riddle's days. But do we know who the > deputy headmaster was. We don't really know if DD continued at > Hogwarts until he became Headmaster or if he went to some other > activity and returned. Was he ever the Deputy Headmaster? > > But it does seem that something happened that December to cause > McGonagall to come on in mid year. Could it be that Headmaster Dippett died in December? That happened a few years ago in the school where I am now working - the principal died the week before school started and a new principal was assigned. It seems entirely possible that Dumbledore was the Deputy just as Professor McGonagall is now. Ravenclaw Bookworm (who also has more questions than answers and keeps finding more.) From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 25 03:29:06 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:29:06 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: <40DADD2C.30790.6422E2D@localhost> Message-ID: <40DC28A2.13824.A31A2E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102778 On 25 Jun 2004 at 2:48, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > Right, Neville's family was concerned that he was not MAGICAL ENOUGH > to get in Hogwarts and I was saying that every child FULLY MAGICAL > gets admitted. Which *means* there is a minimum standard required. Which is precisely what I said. If there are degrees of magical ability besides magic/non-magic - and Neville's statement implies that there are - and if a certain level is required to get into Hogwarts - and Neville's statement implies that there is - then Hogwarts is, as I said. What you said was: "I understand what are you talking about perfectly, but I don't remember any proof in canon that to get to Hogwarts you have to reach certain standards." I've provided the evidence from canon. > Sorry, but what I deducted from that paragraph was that Neville's > family was worried that his magic was not strong enough. Which means that you do 'have to reach certain standards' to get into Hogwarts. > I could not find it right away, but I will definitely try some more. > Does not this quote imply that all magical children in england get > their Hogwarts letters? Yes, but you can't take a single quote in an interview in isolation. In an interview, JKR has to give a verbal response to a question without the ability to consider every single possible implication of what she is saying. A lot of the time answers given in an interview are not going to be *complete*. When you're asked a question and someone is after an answer right now, you're not going to always think of every little detail in answering it. People can't expect an author to be able to do that. But when a person is writing, it's a bit different - because they have time to edit their statements, add in details they missed the first time, etc. Now my view, and this is just my view, is that you take the books as your first source of information, and things like interviews with the author as secondary sources. If the author say something in an interview that is fully consistent with the book, it should be pretty much accepted. But in cases where there is a contradiction between the book and the interview, you need to consider why such a contradiction exists, and see how you can resolve it - giving primacy to the book because the nature of a book means you can easily correct errors. To me the 'magical quill' statement can be reconciled with the book quite easily. The book implies there are minimum standards for entry beyond mere wizarding ability - you don't just have to be magic, you need to be magic enough. If we're imagining a magic quill that can detect the birth of any child suitable for Hogwarts, to reconcile these two statements, we just have to consider the idea that the quill *doesn't* write down names of magic children who aren't magical enough. Part of the quill's magic is that it can make this assessment. There are other possibilities as well. Neville could be wrong about his relatives fears. Neville's relatives could be paranoid so their fears have nothing to do with reality. Neville could have been deliberately mislead about how the process works. All possible. But personally, I think it's more likely that there is a minimum standard. The Wizarding Britain we see seems too large to me for only one school (even with 1000 pupils) to be large enough to service it if everyone went there. One example - the stadium for the Quidditch World Cup seated 100,000 people. Now even allowing for the fact that there were a lot of Bulgarians present as well as residents of the British isles, and probably some fans who were attending from other countries as well - there really does seem to be a very large Wizarding population around. Within walking distance of Stoatshead Hill there are four wizarding families - the Weasleys, the Diggorys, the Lovegoods, and the Fawcetts. The numbers to me just don't seem to add up if Hogwarts took everyone with magical ability in Britain. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 25 03:29:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:29:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DC28A1.3552.A31939@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102779 On 25 Jun 2004 at 2:54, dumbledore11214 wrote: > I found it. Here is the relevant part. > > "Question: > How can two Muggles have a kid with magical powers? Also how does the > Ministry of Magic find out these kids have powers? > > A. It's the same as two black-haired people producing a redheaded > child. Sometimes these things just happen, and no one really knows > why! The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. > In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a > magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment > book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls > to the people who are turning 11. " > Scholastic Online chat, February 2000. > > > I think the last sentence implies that every magical child gets > Hogwarts letter. If this was the only information we had, I agree. But it's not. I can't get past the fact that Neville's family discovered he was magical when he was eight, but apparently still had concerns about whether he was 'magical enough' for Hogwarts after that time, if the mere fact a child is magical is enough. To me, all JKRs statement really implies is that this 'magical quill' is able to tell if a child is magical enough for Hogwarts at the time they are born, even if the fact might not be clear to the family of the child. It doesn't mean there isn't a non-zero minimum standard of magic required. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 03:55:20 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:55:20 -0000 Subject: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and the War) In-Reply-To: <20040625003748.98085.qmail@web40411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102780 Haggridd wrote: After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about Sirius as an unregistered animagus. Then Meri wrote: And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the first war? Now Yolande writes: I would say no since Peter Pettigrew worked for LV in the first war as well. Perhaps Peter just didn't get around to sharing that information before Godric's Hollow. But if attacking Hogwarts was a priority, I think he would have told LV. Although that would mean the DE's have known this information (Sirius an animagus, secret passages, etc.) for years... What do others think? Bookworm: I have wondered for a while now just how much Wormtail supported Voldemort during the first war. From his comment in the Shrieking Shack, I have thought that he joined Voldemort out of fear ? he wanted to get on Voldemort's "good" side in case Voldemort won, but didn't really want to hurt his friends, so tried to give away as little information as possible. <> (Paraphrased from POA) I can just see him panicking when Sirius suggested making him the Secret Keeper ? now he would have information that he couldn't hide from Voldemort (not with V's legilimency) but would hurt his friends. After Godric's Hollow, he had both Sirius and the DE's looking for him so he *had* to disappear. When he was `outed' as Scabbers, he would have had no where else to go but to Voldemort. >From Malfoy's comment about `dogging' their steps, it is apparent that the DE's know about the Marauders being anamagi, although that is irrelevant now that Sirius and James are dead. Do they know about the map? Would it have come up in conversation? IIRC, all the passages except the one through Honeydukes are blocked ? Peter wouldn't necessarily know that. And one of the main benefits of the map is seeing where others are. Without the map in the possession of whoever is trying to get in, they wouldn't know who to avoid. Now, if the map disappears or is stolen in the next book ... watch out. Ravenclaw Bookworm From teshara at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 03:59:18 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:59:18 -0000 Subject: The Map and the War (WAS: Malfoys' knowledge of Padfoot) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" > wrote: > > > After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information > > about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about > > Sirius as an unregistered animagus. > > > > Haggridd > > And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage > ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on > Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV > didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the > first war? I kind of have a theory, but it may be a little quirky. Peter isn't 'really' a Death Eater. He wears a robe, but has never donned a mask. He told about the Potters, but he told Voldie reluctantly. I think he's a Voldie groupie only because he has no where else to go. He may have even been under the imperius when he blew up all those people as to burn all his bridges. The Most Devoted Servant line has been used several times. I dont think it pertains to a single person, but whoever is in favor with Voldie at the time. (Like the 'favorite kid' most parents seem to have that switches depending on who has not annoyed them lately.) I don't think Peter has told Voldie a thing unless directly asked. ~ Chelle From msmerymac at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 03:59:35 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:59:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <40DBEC0D.2364.4302F6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102782 Dreadnaught wrote: > > Mr and Mrs Granger have sent their daughter off into a very alien > world, and by her fourth year at the school, she's stopped coming > home for more than a week at a time. She's blown off a skiing trip > with her parents to stay with a Wizarding family. And in all > probability, the reasons she's given them for this are very > innocuous - nowhere near important enough to justify what she is > doing to them. It's likely it looks to them like excuses. > Luckie: I'm not denying Mr. and Mrs. Granger are probably hurt by the loss of their daughter (although, according to JKR, they supposedly have another daughter at home. :-P), but as you said, this has happened gradually. Hermione went home for Christmas and the summer in her first year. In second year she stayed at Hogwarts for Christmas, but when home for summer vacation, and brought her parents to Diagon Alley. It isn't until befire her fifth year she spends most of her breaks with her friends. Because Ron grew up in the Wizarding World, I'm sure Mr. and Mrs. Granger understand HE cannot come and stay with them. But more importantly, breaking away from your parents is a part of growing up, especially when you go to boarding school. When I went away to college I came home for every break my first year. My second year I stayed at school for fall and Spring break. And I got a job and stayed in school for the whole summer between my junior and senior year, only seeing my parents for a total of about 3 weeks for the whole calendar year. Granted, I was older the Hermione (late teens/early 20s), but I simply think children gain independence sooner the earlier they are forced into it. ~ Luckie, who, if I was Hermione's mother, would definitely think there was "something going on" between Ron and Hermione! From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 04:27:09 2004 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 04:27:09 -0000 Subject: New contender for prophecy(was: Neville and the Prophecy ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102783 probono This reminds me, something just popped into my head about the prophecy as I was rereading OotP last night, but I don't have the book here today to check it. Voldemort knew there was a boy, born at a certain time, to parents who had thwarted him 3 times, who would eventually have the power to vanquish him. So, he went after both the Longbottoms and the Potters. Karen: I know I'm taking this out of the context that you meant, but this had something popping into my head that I've wondered about before. What if there is someone else that Voldemort has in mind for the prophecy as well. THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES....BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... If this is all that was known to Voldemort then he doesn't know the sex of the child in question. In the book Dumbledore does say "He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you --again marking you as his equal" AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, For Voldemort to know that he was looking for a male child he had to know he would mark that child, but we know that part wasn't overheard. Dumbledore knows that the prophecy is about a male child and so he tries to protect the male. My theory is that we may be hearing about a female child also born at the end of July with another set of parents who have defied the Dark Lord three times. If the theory that Voldemort planned to kill both Harry and Neville then there could be yet another child out there that is in danger that we haven't heard about yet. Maybe Susan Bones. Just a thought, Karen From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 05:00:25 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:00:25 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102784 >>> Ally wrote in Post # 102369 "Re: Pensieve in Court & Magic Eye": >>> Well, the impression I get is that the pensieve shows everything, even the things you may not conciously be aware of your memory recording. So, if I walk into a room to get a book, I might be focused only on the book and remember only the book, but in fact, my senses would be taking in a lot more that I mentally discard b/c its not important to me at the time. The pensieve allows you to see everything that happened, even the things you weren't aware you saw. Why would DD use it as a tool to gain better insights into events if it was an unreliable recording? I think it brings your memories into clearer and more accurate focus. <<< Bren now: This above post by Ally got me thinking. In "Snape's Worst Memory", Harry went into Snape's Pensieve, supposedly from Snape's POV. But was it really just Snape's POV? In the Pensieve, Harry sees and hears... 1. The little friendly winks between James and Sirius during DADA OWL exam - But I believe Snape was sitting ahead of them, putting his head down so close to desk? So even if Pensieve picked up "things you may not conciously be aware of your memory recording", James grinning at Sirius, Sirius giving thumbs up to James, James drawing the Golden Snitch & "L.E."... this shouldn't BE in his memories. It is *impossible*. Visual information in humans is picked up by our eyes only -- eyes that face in rostral/anterior direction and eyes that cannot receive visual information no more than... well definitely not from the back. Sure, other species use Superior Colliculus (SC) for vision and turning response and whatnot, but human SC has lost most of its visual functions and it is too well- embedded in cortex to actually pick up photons, etc etc. So I think it's safe to conclude that Snape didn't witness the interaction between James & Sirius, nor did his senses pick it up unconsciously. (Unless wizarding eyes work differently, like that pair of buzzing blue Magic Eye.) 2. The Mauraders talking -- and not just a simple "Hi, How are you" talk, they talk about Lupin being a werewolf! And I believe Snape was a few feet behind them or something. I always assumed, from PoA, that Snape never found out about Lupin's true nature when he was at Hogwarts. If he did by any chance, I would say around Year 6 or 7, not earlier. And as we all know, OWLs are written at the end of 5th year. This leads me to believe that if Snape indeed heard about Lupin being a werewolf, he would've been SO *delighted* -- it was one of his must-fulfill missions!! Do you think it's possible that his "unconscious" senses picked up something that his conscious mind had been DYING to find out for so long? And it went unnoticed?!?! Do you guys know when Sirius' prank took place? So my conclusion is that the Pensieve might be more than a mere recording of one's memory. It seems like a final-edition scene of a certain event/period collected from a set of security cameras that were filming all over the place. We got to see the Mauraders in Snape's Pensieve because Harry chose to follow them. Snape certainly wasn't near enough to pick up everything, conscious or unconscious, yet HArry gets to see every *intimate* details of the Mauraders interacting. This reminds me of a viewer zooming in to see one particular section of a photograph, and the presented details will be independent of where the lens' focus was. As long as the section one wants to see was part of the picture. I'm speculating this because it opens up a quite juicy possibility. I wonder if we get to see Dumbledore's Pensieve again? Or Snape's that has his "memories" as a DE? And what happens if Harry decides to explore every inch of it? He could pick up LOADS of information that way! Loads I tells ya!! What do you think? Bren From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 05:07:57 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:07:57 -0000 Subject: Ron as Seer? Was: Re: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > snip. > > > I can imagine Ron falling asleep in Trelawny's class next year when > > he suddenly snaps alert and begins speaking in that eerie Seer > > voice: > > > > 'She who spoke the prophecy will die at the hands of the dark > lord...' > > snip > > > vivian > > Alla: > > LOL! It is very funny, but I would prefer Ron to make an actual > prediction, if he indeed will become a Seer. Hmmm... > "Maybe you are going to work for the Ministry of Magic..." (poA, > p.81). Who knows, maybe this one will turn out to be true. > > After all, Rowling only said that seventeen is too young to become > involved in politics, she did not say that Harry will never become > Minister of Magic. :o) Antosha: Actually, I think it likely that Cassandra will actually be one of Voldemort's targets in the next book--since she is the least protected of the two people present at the Prophecy's uttering... though of course she wouldn't remember a word. So I can see Ron saying that, indeed, and I can see us all reacting as you did, with laughter... at first. Though what Ron and Harry would be doing in Divination after OWLs I have NO idea. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 05:12:08 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:12:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin was the spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102786 Was Pettigrew really the Potter's secret keeper? Pettigrew never admitted that he was in fact the secret keeper. POA pg. 374 He admitted to selling out James and Lily to Voldemort and also to passing information for the past year but never did he admit that he was secret keeper In fact on pg. 369 when Sirius accuses Peter specifically of being secret keeper, Peter was muttering distractedly, far-fetched and lunacy. I don't think Peter even knew of the plan to make him secret keeper until the shrieking shack accusations. Sirius said pg. 365 " And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies I realized what Peter must've done what I'd done " Here is the clue {what Peter "must've" done; not really sure} it is just a guilt ridden assumption on Sirius' part that Peter was in fact made secret keeper because he felt he was at fault for persuading James and Lily No real concrete evidence that Peter was chosen as the secret keeper, only Sirius' self-guilt. The secret keeper switch had been discussed between James, Lily and Sirius but I don't think it went as far as Pettigrew. IMO It would be an assumption on the reader's part based entirely on what Sirius thinks happened because he suggested Peter instead of himself. Peter was well aware that he had been spying and therefore felt guilty of what he had passed onto Voldemort. This guilty behavior from Peter allowed us to believe the accusation and assumption that Peter was the secret keeper without question. But just because Peter acted guilty didn't make him guilty of being the secret keeper. It is quite possible that Sirius assumed that James switched to Peter as secret keeper but that Lily may have questioned Sirius' loyalty, to herself and James, because of this last minute request. Lily feeling suspicious of Sirius' behavior could have suggested to James that they should rethink their position and entrust Lupin instead so that Sirius wouldn't know whom the secret keeper actually was incase Lily's suspicions were correct about Sirius. (Women can be very persuasive...Women willingly trust, where no man would). Peter was afraid of Sirius all right when he met him in the street that day but Peter was also in need of hiding from the DE's that were blaming him for the downfall of their master because of information that he had told Voldemort. Peter knowing of the incident at Godric's Hollow, after the fact, wouldn't necessarily mean that he knew of the fidelius charm. Peter could have thought that Sirius was coming after him for being a spy for Voldemort; Peter may have thought he had caused Lily and James death because of other information he passed to Voldemort. Peter (feeling guilty of his betrayal of spying) cornered by Sirius, tells the whole street that it was Sirius who killed the Potter's and escapes. As for the actual secret keeper, I'm guessing Lupin filled the post as the one who was ultimately chosen. There are so many things that Lupin has said and done that make me question his loyalties From the "you heard James" statement as if Lupin was afraid of what Harry might have heard and abruptly ends the session, to the scene where Lupin enters the shrieking shack with forgiveness in his heart for Black with very little explanation. Also to be considered, when Harry and the kids' expelliarmus Snape in the SS, Black's reply was "You shouldn't have done that You should have left him to me " GOF pg. 361 Lupin's reply to that same situation was "Thank you Harry" Shouldn't it have been the other way around, Black saying thank you and Lupin saying you shouldn't have done that? From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 05:13:44 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:13:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as the next DADA prof? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102787 There has been much discussion of the likelihood--from a structural point of view--that Dumbledore may die at the end of the sixth book. There has likewise been much theorizing about who the next, doomed DADA teacher is going to be.... What if Dumbledore can't find another teacher, knows Snape will be doomed if he takes the job, and decides to hire himeself, to impart what knowledge he can to Harry, the DA and the rest of the students in one last blaze of glory? Antosha, who dreads the idea of one last interview in DD's office, only this time with Albus dying.... From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 05:47:59 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:47:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: Leaving in a Green Flame Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102788 Here's a new FILK we just finished. Hope you enjoy it! Title: LEAVING IN A GREEN FLAME New lyrics by Diana & Jim L. This song is sung to the tune of John Denver's "Leaving on a Jet Plane". Harry is waiting for the Weasleys to pick him up in Goblet of Fire so they can go to the Quidditch World Cup. He begins to sing... HARRY: My trunk is packed I'm ready to go I'm waitin' here beside the door I can hardly wait to say goodbye But your time has passed It's five fifiteen Vernon's aghast He's blowin' steam Already I'm so anxious I could die CHORUS So help me and come for me Hurry up and come get me Let's go to the Quidditch World Cup 'Cause I'm leavin' in a green flame Don't want to come back here again Oh, Ron, I WANT to GO There's so many times I've been so down So many times I've worn a frown I tell you now, that they won't mean a thing Ev'ry place I go, you'll go there too Ev'ry play I see, you'll see it too When we come back, we won't have missed a thing CHORUS So help me and come for me Hurry up and come get me Let's go to the Quidditch World Cup 'Cause I'm leavin' in a green flame Don't want to come back here again Oh, Ron, I WANT to GO Now the time has come to leave here It's five thirty Yet you're not here Cross my fingers Hope you're on your way Think about the game to come When I won't have to be alone Think about the fun we'll have all day CHORUS Oh, help me and come for me Hurry up and come get me Let's go to the Quidditch World Cup 'Cause I'm leavin' in a green flame Don't want to come back here again Oh, Ron, I WANT to GO I'll be leavin' in a green flame Don't want to come back here again Oh Ron, I WANT TO GO From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 05:53:48 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:53:48 -0000 Subject: Are house-elves _slaves,... House vs house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > Meri now: > I would say that house elves seem to count as part of the > house they serve. So that makes them a piece of property or chatell. > If a WW family bought an old school manor, it would certainly come > with the anemnities: breakfast nook, broom cupboard, owelry and > house elf. Whether or not house elves can be "sold seperately" is > yet to be seen. > > Meri - asian_lovr2: When we say that a house-elf is bound to a house, we need to make a distinction between the house of Black, and the House of Black, for example. The house of Black is the building at 12 Grimmauld Place; the House of Black is... "a family line including ancestors and descendants, especially a royal or noble family, as in the House of Orange". (American Heritage CD_ROM Dictionary 3rd Edition) Kreacher is bound to the family line of Black, but with Sirius's death, the direct line of decendancy has been broken; there is no more downward House of Black. However, there is still a 'side-ways' House of Black. There are no direct decendants, but there are decendants 'one removed'. In otherwords, Sirius has three living first cousins, unfortunately, none of them are named 'Black'. They are Malfoy, Tonks, and LeStrange. With inheritance issues like Sirius's, the law usually looks for the oldest and nearest MALE relative. Based on the knowledge we have, the oldest and nearest Male relative is Draco Malfoy. I don't want to get into the Black Estate Inheritance issue as it has been discussed several times. I just want to remind people that when the books says an elf is bound to a house, that's probably House with a capital 'H'. Just a thought. Steve B. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 06:01:20 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:01:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Mirror - and Underage Magic: A New Attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: vmonte > | Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:18 AM > | I just had a thought. Maybe the mirror WILL work for Harry to > | speak to Sirius. But maybe he is going to reach the Sirius of the > | past. > [Lee]: > Well, he's first gonna have to repair it as it is presently in > shattered form at the bottom of his trunk...and he can't very well > repair it during the summer without calling attension from the MOM. > :-) > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) Asian_lovr2: Slight shift in the subject- I wonder if Harry is going to be too fussed about using magic outside of school. It it was me, modest as I am, I would still feel a bit relaxed about it. Sort of a... screw them if the don't like it, let them try and deal with Voldemort without me. Given the Harry is attacked or threatened in one form or another in each book, and has now been attacked at Privet Drive, I think he is going take the attitude that the Ministry has a lot more important things to worry about than Harry repairing a mirror, or illuminating his wand, or more importantly, practicing a few Defense Spells. Given that he is under direct threat from an 'outed' Voldemort, I don't think Harry can afford to take a couple month off from practicing defense spells. Nor can Hermoine, Ron, or Neville for that matter. Just a thought. bboy_mn From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 06:42:19 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:42:19 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > Susan now: > ... CoS,... after Harry frees Dobby, they talk for a minute, then > (paraphrase) a loud crack (the same way JKR describes apparating) > and Dobby *disappears*. > > They were standing in the hallway outside DD's office. Did Dobby > just disapparate? > Asian_lovr2: The assumed explanation of this is that Elves have there own brand of magic. What Dobby did was the Elf equivalent of Apparation, but it, again we assume, used a different type of magic. Also, we know Dobby disappeared, but we don't know where he went. He may have just moved to a different part of the castle or out on to the grounds somewhere. That could imply that the 'protections' of the castle had some limited effect on him. One could assume that he, with elfin magic, was able to transport within the boundaries of the castle ground, but could not penetrate the barrier between the castle and the outside world. Example: he transports to the castle grounds just inside the gate, walks outside the gate, then transports to London. We don't have enough information to do more that speculate on various likely scenerios. The books and JKR have stated, however, that Elves do have their own unique brand of magic, so that is the foundation upon which we must base our speculative explanations. > Susan continues: > > If ... house-elves are immune to the (protective) spells and charms > ... > > If so, then wouldn't it be a very good idea for DD et al to secure > house-elves' loyalty to their cause? If house-elves en masse decided > to support LV, ... LV would have a really easy time capturing the > school, ... > > Any thoughts? > > Susan :-) Asian_lovr2: Elves are loyal to the House to which they are bound and serving that family is their first priority. I just can't see the elves being at all concerned about various broad political issues. They let the wizards deal with the concerns of the outside world, and the elves focus on their homes. An elf would probably follow the orders of his Master if asked to aid Voldemort in some way, but I can't seem them acting as a group that has made a concious collective decision to support Voldemort. Elves are just not that well organized, and based on what Dobby said, I don't think elves in general are all that fond of Voldemort. Dumbledore on the other hand does have over 100 elves at his immediate disposal who are loyal to him and to the school. To the Hogwart's elves, the school is the House they serve. Their loyalty is to the institution, and by extension, it's staff and the students, and I'm sure they would be willing to protect it against any threat. So, I just don't see Voldemort rallying Elves en-masse to his cause and using them to attack Hogwarts. I could see him gathering together maybe a dozen elves who are the servants of Death Eaters, and ordering them to take some action on Voldemort's behalf. But even then, I can see many of those elves acting half-heartedly. Just a few thoughts. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 25 07:00:37 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:00:37 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: <104026cb04062415479629bb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rellie wrote: > Julie: > > >>BUt VOldemort did not hear the whole prophecy. The orb was > destroyed in the fight and no one heard it, including Harry and > Nevile. DD told Harry the prophecy. (Sorry, but am at work and do > not have my book to provide canon) > >> Rellie: > Yep, I think that's what they are talking about. They are talking > about voldemort only hearing the first part of the prophecy, which > leads to him not realizing the part about about "marking" the child. > Thus he only knows that the child born can defeat him. So that does > makes neville more vulnerable. Geoff: This has been discussed and mulled over on many occasions. It would seem that Voldermort, having heard that a child born in July was the danger, decided 15 months after Harry and Neville's births, that Harry was the threat and thus attacked the Potters. After the spell rebounded and he became disembodied, it appears that Voldemort has decided that this proves Harry to be his main danger and he has concentrated all his energies on "getting" him. Speaking through the possessed Quirrell and again as Riddle/Voldemort and again in the graveyard and at the Ministry of Magic, it seems clear that he considers only Harry as his opponent and his quest for the prophecy is to find out what he must do to finally overcome him. His weak spot is that he has developed a "tunnel vision" approach and is blind to the possibility that anyone else might be in the frame - reminiscent of Sauron's blind spot in failing to recognise that others might seek to destroy the Ring rather than take it over. From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 07:30:36 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:30:36 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > I actually see Snape > as the type of teacher, in both children's scenarios, who expects > that person to learn. We'll have to see if any of his "abused" > students let him down in the OWLS. I don't think they will and I feel > that is credited to the teacher. Sue A fascinating post. The kids may not care for Snape, but nobody actually seems to fail in the OWLs, not even Neville, who has learned something, but just can't do anything properly in class because Snape is breathing down his neck. Neville isn't dumb, just nervous. Whatever you think of Snape's methods, his students pass their exams. That said, I had many a Neville in my classes when I was teaching English and what I would do is get the class started on their task and sit down to help the one who was struggling. That's something Snape could do, because his class isn't especially big and they have a set task to do, so he could wander around and help. How much of it is his teaching method and how much having to pick on the Gryffindors for the benefit of the three Death-Eaters' children is a subject for another thread. From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 25 07:35:49 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:35:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) References: Message-ID: <014e01c45a87$09a157b0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102794 > Probono, however, still has a point. If Voldemort has only heard the > first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Or does > he believe that Neville is weak (like everybody else) and unable of > being the one. After all, shouldn't his defeat be caused by a person > of great power? If DD is to be believed, then Voldemort was aware of Neville. Remember, DD, when telling Harry about the prophecy, made a point of discussing that Voldemort chose not the pureblood child but a halfblood like himself as the most likely threat. Alina. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Jun 25 08:06:46 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:06:46 -0000 Subject: Legilimency and the Fidelius (was: Re: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102795 Bookworm: > I can just see him panicking when Sirius suggested making him the > Secret Keeper ? now he would have information that he > couldn't hide from Voldemort (not with V's legilimency) but > would hurt his friends. I hadn't thought of that before. I'm sure that there was a lot that Voldemort could find out from Peter via legilimency, but just how would Legilimency and the *Fidelius Charm* interact? Possibly an unanswerable question as we're not sure exactly how the Fidelius operates anyway, but as Dumbledore presumably *knew* that Voldemort was a skilled Legilimens, then presumably he also thought that there was some value in the Fidelius depite this. I don't think Legilimency could override the Fidelius in the sense that Voldemort could have looked into Pettigrew's brain and known where the Potters were. In the first place, we are told that Legilimency isn't mind reading. It's not reading thoughts exactly, although if the way Snape seems to have got a visual image of Harry's experiences is anything to go by, he might have *seen* where the Potters were although not necessarily knowing the location. In the second place, although we don't know exactly how the Fidelius affects others who were privy to the secret (do they forget the information? Are they prevented from speaking it? Neither?) it *does* seem to have an effect on those seeking the information it protects. We are told (paraphrasing) that even if he had his nose pressed up against the window, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to find the Potters if the charm hadn't been broken. Just because Voldemort could see the information, know where the Potters were, even, doesn't mean that he would have been able actually to find and harm them. So can the charm be broken by Legilimency? Hmm. I'm inclined to think not. A small piece of evidence is that no one in the know has ever suggested that the Potters were anything other than delierately betrayed. Even granted that Legilimency hasn't made an official appearance as a plot device in PoA, Pettigrew said nothing in his defence of his betrayal of the Potters other than his "what could I do?" plea. Legilimency has been *implied* in the books up to then (via Snape and Dumbledore) and he could easily have said something about the Dark Lord having ways of divining secrets or something without actually giving away too much about the specific means. Instead, he said that Voldemort had *weapons you can't imagine*, that he was *scared*, that Voldemort would have *killed* him for the information. Unnecessary if all he needed to do was look into his mind. No. I think the Potters were safe from discovery by Voldemort even if he *could* see into Peter's mind. The only way for the charm to be broken was by deliberate betrayal of the secret. ~Eloise From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 25 08:14:48 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 04:14:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Legilimency and the Fidelius (was: Re: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and References: Message-ID: <01a201c45a8c$7c0b4090$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102796 No. I think the Potters were safe from discovery by Voldemort even if he *could* see into Peter's mind. The only way for the charm to be broken was by deliberate betrayal of the secret. ~Eloise I agree that Voldemort couldn't know the Potters' location just by Legimencing Pettigrew, but I don't think they were safe either. Being a Legimence would allow Voldemort to know that Pettigrew was keeping a secret from him, maybe even what kind of secret, and from what we've seen so far, it wouldn't be too hard for him to "persuade" Pettigrew to share it. Alina. From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jun 25 09:00:39 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:00:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102797 Geo wrote: >>The current faction of the giants are more into killing and maiming. He could just simply portkey them into a spot to create chaos and havoc and force the MoM into diverting resources to controlling the giants and obliviating people who've seen them. << HunterGreen: Then why is he bothering to set up relations with them at all? I agree that if you portkeyed a bunch of giants into the middle of Diagon Alley it wouldn't end well, but it seems like that'd work better if the giants had no prior knowledge that this was going to happen (if he tricked them into a portkey), because they'd be confused and confusion would lead to anger. Then again, this seems like too broad a plan for Voldemort, all evidence points at him doing things in a quiet, sinister way. (which brings me back to wondering why he cares about the giants in the first place...seems like the goblins would be a better place to concentrate). From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jun 25 10:38:06 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:38:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin was the spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102798 snow15145 wrote: >>Was Pettigrew really the Potter's secret keeper? [snip] when Sirius accuses Peter specifically of being secret keeper, Peter was muttering distractedly, far-fetched and lunacy. I don't think Peter even knew of the plan to make him secret keeper until the shrieking shack accusations.<< HunterGreen (who just had *another* messege eaten by her computer): Very interesting theory. I think its quite possible--skimming through that chapter, I don't see anything that *proves* Peter was the secret- keeper. Actually, its all an assumption on Sirius' part. The fact that he mutters as an answer to the secret-keeper thing is curious, because for most of the other questions he comes up with some sort of answer (even if its lying and sniveling). >> The secret keeper switch had been discussed between James, Lily and Sirius but I don't think it went as far as Pettigrew. [snip] It is quite possible that Sirius assumed that James switched to Peter as secret keeper but that Lily may have questioned Sirius' loyalty, to herself and James, because of this last minute request. Lily feeling suspicious of Sirius' behavior could have suggested to James that they should rethink their position and entrust Lupin instead so that Sirius wouldn't know whom the secret keeper actually was in case Lily's suspicions were correct << I know I'm not the only one who thought it was a bit off that they'd switch the secret-keeper duties to *Peter* of all people, who would certainly fold if Voldemort came after him. In fact, if Sirius *had* been the spy, this would have been a pretty good plan from his view. He convinces them to switch to Peter, tells Voldemort this, Voldemort breaks Peter, then if someone presses Sirius about this later, he can *truthfully* say he wasn't the secret-keeper. AND if Lily or James happened to survive, they'd back him up. (of course, this is all conjecture, since Sirius *wasn't* the spy). James and Lily may have thought his idea over, decided that *basically* it was a good idea, but that Lupin was a far better choice than Peter (perhaps they were less suspicious of him that Sirius was--which begs the question, why was Sirius more suspicious of Lupin than he was of Peter?). >>Peter was afraid of Sirius all right when he met him in the street that day but Peter was also in need of hiding from the DE's that were blaming him for the downfall of their master because of information that he had told Voldemort. Peter knowing of the incident at Godric's Hollow, after the fact, wouldn't necessarily mean that he knew of the fidelius charm. Peter could have thought that Sirius was coming after him for being a spy for Voldemort<< Which is perfectly reasonable. Since Lily and James just died, and Voldemort was destroyed there's pleny of reasons for him to be a little nervous. >> There are so many things that Lupin has said and done that make me question his loyalties From the "you heard James" statement as if Lupin was afraid of what Harry might have heard and abruptly ends the session, to the scene where Lupin enters the shrieking shack with forgiveness in his heart for Black with very little explanation.<< It is a little off that he makes the jump from Peter being alive to Sirius being *completely* innocent, that never quite added up for me. This theory could go a long way to explain why he didn't tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus and the secret passageways around the castle: he knew that Sirius wasn't a real threat. Perhaps part of him had a guilty conscience for Sirius going to Azkaban for something he did (ESE!Lupin doesn't have to mean he's evil to the core). Continuing with that, I'd imagine he'd be rather curious what Sirius was doing in the castle (perhaps hoping he'd come across him), and that could be why he was examining the map. The moment he saw that Peter was alive, it all clicked. Speaking of the shrieking shack, just now when I skimmed through it with this theory in mind, I realized there are a few things that Lupin does which are a little odd. First is that he goes completely along with killing Peter. If Harry hadn't stopped them, Lupin and Sirius would have been guitly of murder. Now Sirius' motives are rather clear, but you'd think that Lupin would have been a little more level-headed at this point (a *thirteen-year-old* is the voice of reason in this situation). Then when he ties Peter up, he *gags* him. Now, why does he do that? Certainly there's nothing Peter could say to get anyone to change their mind (he already tried everyone when the plan was to KILL him and it made no difference), and if he called attention to himself once they were out of the willow, it would only make his situation worse, so what difference does gagging him make? Unless, that is, Lupin would rather him stay quiet (and Lupin would be the person dealing with him once they got to the castle, I assume if the plan hadn't been ruined--actually you could go so far as to say that Lupin hadn't forgotten it was a full moon, and he intended to let Peter escape the whole time, he just needed him to stay quiet until then). -Rebecca (who's wondering, with all this talk of ESE!Lupin, where Pippin has been this week) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 02:30:12 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:30:12 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > >Christy: > >If Voldemort has only heard the > > first part of the prophesy, is he simply unaware of Neville? Not likely, The first part of the prophesy is the part that involves Neville. The part that Voldemort has not been told or did not hear was most likely these two lines. "...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." Oh the headache of contemplating this part. "either must die at the hand of the *other* " (emphasis mine). Is this other *the other of the either* ? Or is this *other* Neville ? I do suspect that Neville may be the one to take out the Dark Lord ........ or Harry. " ...for neither can live while the other survives.... " Perhaps all three must die for Voldemort to be defeated. Scenarios with Other/Neville. (add your own context) 1 Neville kills Voldemort but Harry cant live while the Other/Neville survives so somehow Harry or Neville dies too. 2 Neville kills Harry (Imperio thread) but Voldemort cannot live while Other/Neville survives so he dies too. 3 Voldemort Kills Neville but Neville manages to get one off and Voldemort is finished and Harry is free to live on. 4. God forbid! Harry kills Neville (Imperio threaders take note!) and Voldemort can never be defeated. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 03:00:16 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:00:16 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > Unless, are children of wizarding families able to experiment with > wands prior to school? > > Julie Little Kevin in the early chapters of GOF. "How many times ,Kevin? You don't - touch - Daddy's - wand - yeuch!" Bagman and Crouch GOF The cheeky ones do! And I'd guess possibly a fortunate few privileged ones with generous or reckless parents. Valky From srobles at caribe.net Fri Jun 25 02:47:43 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:47:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "draco382" wrote: > I thought i'd come out of lurkdom to put in my two cents on this > debate -- my impression of Hermione's relationship to Harry is > (brace yourself) one of complete respect and deference. Not in the > subservient "Harry is my God" kind of way, mind you -- more akin to > the statement she made back in book1: "books, > cleverness...friendship is what's really important" (paraphrasing). > I think she honestly feels that Harry, although wild, untamable and > often headstrong in many situations, has some level of authority to > her -- and even though she has no problem with telling of Ron for > being a prat, she might think twice when it comes to Harry. > > Honestly, at times she does seem to worship the guy. Probably > because he is the only one who "matches" up to her level of > understanding, comprehension and values. > > my two cents, > draco382 Anasazi replies: Welcome Draco382! I think you make some valid points about Hermione's relationship with Harry. However, I think that although she respects him very much, I don't think she's in deference (if deference means "Submission or yielding to the opinion, wishes, or judgment of another. "). There are instances in canon where Hermione goes against Harry's wishes, particularly in PoA where she did specifically what Harry had asked her not to do and went straight to McGonagall to tell her about the Firebolt. I believe wholeheartedly that she did this out of concern for Harry, but she did risk her friendship with him over this. A person who is deferent (another word for deferent is subservient) would not have dared to go against the other person's wishes. > Besides...isn't it completely possible that Hermione might find his > qualitites desirable (not in the love sense necessarily)? As > someone mentioned previously, Harry is, in many ways the ultimate > alpha Male of the series... This is very interesting. It makes me wonder if Hermione realizes that she possesses many of those desireable qualities. Like Harry, she's fiercely loyal, courageous, intelligent, powerful (although as far as we know it has to do with her brains and not her natural ability), a risktaker, and with a good heart. It makes me wonder if she sees those qualities in herself. Peace, Anasazi From trevor-weiland at comcast.net Fri Jun 25 03:21:38 2004 From: trevor-weiland at comcast.net (Trevor) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:21:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c45a63$86dc4060$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 102802 Addressing the question of whether education is a right of a privilege in the WW, I would also add that Lupin's attendance to Hogwarts was not guaranteed due to his werewolf infection. Only DD's headmastership allowed him as a werewolf to attend regardless of his magical abilities. It seems that magical abilities are not the only criteria for admittance to Hogwarts. Secondly, the existence of the Quickspell beginning magic courses indicates that not all Magical people gain their education through Hogwarts or similar institutions. Most of the material on Quickspell deals with refresher courses, however the title states beginner's magic. There seems to be enough interest in such a business to keep it afloat. Just some more fuel for the discussion. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vila784 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 03:32:53 2004 From: vila784 at yahoo.com (marie) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:32:53 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: <104026cb04062415479629bb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102803 My opinion on why Voldemort hasn't yet sought after Neville is this, as said, Voldemort didn't hear the whole prophesy and went off attacking Harry without realizing he was 'marking' him. He likely was going to go after Neville as well, but as Wormtail was the Potter's secret keeper, Voldemort had the opportunity to go after Harry first. After Voldemort was vaporized, his attacks on Harry became a more personal thing, and less about the prophesy (though i'm sure he still thought about that) just like how in GoF he uses Harry's blood when he could have used someone else's. It wasn't about killing Harry for the sake of the prophesy, but killing him out of revenge. I sort of doubt Voldemort will go after Neville. I don't think that there could be much doubt in his mind that Harry must've been the boy spoken of in the prophesy. Voldemort didn't want the prophesy to ensure that he had the right kid, but to find out how to kill the boy that he already decided in his mind that the prophesy spoke of. I still believe that Neville will play one of the most important roles in the story, but I just don't think it'll be because voldemort will attack him because of his threat from thr prophesy. From ciceronian at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 06:00:33 2004 From: ciceronian at hotmail.com (~Maitresse) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:00:33 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102804 Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she is only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s from that? Did Bill and Percy take that many more classes? Why wouldn't Hermione take the max amount, although I do understand that the one O.W.L. would have been dropped for Divination. Though how anyone could get an O.W.L. in Divination, I don't know. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, ~Maitresse From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 07:50:35 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:50:35 -0000 Subject: I wonder what this magic is.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102805 In OotP on page 10 of my edition printed in Australia, I found this... " 'Get - off - me!' Harry gasped. For a few seconds they struggled, Harry pulling at his uncles sausage-like fingers with his left hand, his right maintaining a firm grip on his raised wand; then, as the pain in the top of Harrys head gave a particularly nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had recieved and electric shock. Some invisible force seemed to have surged through his nephew making him impossible to hold. " Further on a paragraph suggests that Uncle Vernon had Harry in some type of stranglehold which in turn suggests that Harry may have internally percived a threat upon his life here. What I would like to discuss is which magic is this that created the invisible force surging through Harry. Unlike the incedent with Aunt Marge no further mention of this event was made by anyone in the Ministry or otherwise authorative. Almost as though nobody knew it had happened..... but for us readers. Is this possibly the power that the Dark Lord knows not? Is it the protection of Lily extending beyond Voldemort? Suggestions..... comments........ rebuttals......??? Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:42:17 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:42:17 -0000 Subject: Legilimency and the Fidelius (was: Re: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and In-Reply-To: <01a201c45a8c$7c0b4090$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > I agree that Voldemort couldn't know the Potters' location just by > Legimencing Pettigrew, but I don't think they were safe either. Being a Legimence would allow Voldemort to know that Pettigrew was keeping a secret from him, maybe even what kind of secret, and from what we've seen so far, it wouldn't be too hard for him to "persuade" Pettigrew to share it. > > Alina. This may be possible but the canon is strongly suggestive of the contrary. Sirius: "...the night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didnt feel right." The Servant of Lord Voldemort, POA I construe this paragraph to strongly indicate that Peter willingly donated the information to LV minus any direct act of persuasion. In most cases of Pettigrew canon I fully interpret Peter as having been persauded by the Lure of Reward to do LV's bidding notwithstanding his fear of the Dark Lords power. Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 12:39:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:39:20 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102807 Bren wrote: 2. The Mauraders talking -- and not just a simple "Hi, How are you" talk, they talk about Lupin being a werewolf! And I believe Snape was a few feet behind them or something. I always assumed, from PoA, that Snape never found out about Lupin's true nature when he was at Hogwarts. If he did by any chance, I would say around Year 6 or 7, not earlier. And as we all know, OWLs are written at the end of 5th year. This leads me to believe that if Snape indeed heard about Lupin being a werewolf, he would've been SO *delighted* -- it was one of his must-fulfill missions!! Do you think it's possible that his "unconscious" senses picked up something that his conscious mind had been DYING to find out for so long? And it went unnoticed?!?! Do you guys know when Sirius' prank took place? vmonte responds: I think that you are right that the penseive will come back in book 6 and 7. I wrote a few months ago that I beleived that the kids may even put some of their own memories to view in an unobjective way. They may be able to glean information that way. Also, I recently reread "Snape's" penseive memories as well. Did you notice that Harry noticed that Lupin was looking strange, and he wondered whether the full moon was approaching? I think that the prank happened that night, after the OWL examinations. vivian From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 12:56:14 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:56:14 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Bren wrote: > > 2. The Mauraders talking -- and not just a simple "Hi, How are you" > talk, they talk about Lupin being a werewolf! And I believe Snape > was a few feet behind them or something. I always assumed, from PoA, > that Snape never found out about Lupin's true nature when he was at > Hogwarts. If he did by any chance, I would say around Year 6 or 7, > not earlier. And as we all know, OWLs are written at the end of 5th > year. This leads me to believe that if Snape indeed heard about > Lupin being a werewolf, he would've been SO *delighted* -- it was one > of his must-fulfill missions!! Do you think it's possible that > his "unconscious" senses picked up something that his conscious mind > had been DYING to find out for so long? And it went unnoticed?!?! > Do you guys know when Sirius' prank took place? > > > vmonte responds: > > I think that you are right that the penseive will come back in book 6 > and 7. I wrote a few months ago that I beleived that the kids may > even put some of their own memories to view in an unobjective way. > They may be able to glean information that way. Alice: But this would mean that having a Pensieve would be like having 360 vision and senses all the time - albeit only in retrospect. Wouldn't people USE that a lot more? Just one idea: the examiner could look into his Pensieve after the exam and check whether anybody had been cheating, talking etc. I hate it when JKRs ideas seem be logically faulty, we must find another solution... Love, Alice From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 25 12:58:14 2004 From: meboriqua at aol.com (Jenny) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:58:14 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: <20040624170551.78472.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would be the Dursleys. The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because he spends time with his blood related family. So, if Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be to kill the Dursleys?> I am sure if Voldemort had access to the Dursleys, he would have disposed of them quite a while ago. If someone is acting as Secret Keeper for the Dursleys (of which they'd have no idea), he'd never be able to find them no matter how long and hard he looked. I also agree with those who say that the Dursleys are protected by the same magic that protects Harry. We also know that their home is watched quite closely by the Wizarding community. --jenny from ravenclaw From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 13:34:12 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:34:12 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102811 Barbara wrote: And all this happens when he's dealing with raging hormones and his attraction to Cho! I can't help but feel for him! Ultimately I am just so sad for Harry. What a life he's had! How much sadness he has had to endure! What a year! It was probably the only year he's ever been at Hogwarts that he was miserable or unhappy most of the time. And yet, he still didn't want to go back to the Dursleys, so that tells you how awful it is there! <<< Bren wrote: I agree with you, and yes I do think Harry had an absolutely horrible year, but it still doesn't justify him rashing out on his emotion, IMHO. All these anger, rage, and even using Crucio... he's becoming non other than VM himself!! If Harry's had such a hard life than so did Voldemort. His muggle father abandoning his witch mother, his mom dying right after his birth, being raised in an orphanage. At least Harry had a "family" better than the orphanage staffs. Top that with a surge of snaky Salazar's blood running through him (is he the last remaining "ancestor" of Salazar? I heard that JKR meant it that way. That is quite odd. Time-turning again?) - not so different from Harry! Harry = VM = Salazar?!?! Yikes! vmonte responds: I think that Harry does need to learn how to control his emotions (and I think he will in book 6/7) but I don't think that his behavior in OOTP was unjustified. I feel really sorry for Harry, can't he ever get a break! He's been fighting for 4 years against Voldemort and no one has the decency to tell him what is going on?! I would be angry! Regular 15 year olds can be a pain in the %#@, what with hormones and all. How about a hormonal fifteen year old that has the weight of the WW on his shoulders? And about Tom Riddle, sorry, I feel no compassion for him at all. This guy doesn't even show compassion or loyalty to his own DE's?! Petunia isn't much better. Locking her sister's son in a cupboard, starving him, and mistreating him -- what a bit%h! Just because her sister was popular, and talented! She needs to get over it already. Honestly, how Harry survived past being a toddler is miraculous. vivian From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 25 13:36:36 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:36:36 -0500 Subject: Dudley the prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102812 THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES....BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... If this is all that was known to Voldemort then he doesn't know the sex of the child in question. In the book Dumbledore does say "He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you --again marking you as his equal" AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, For Voldemort to know that he was looking for a male child he had to know he would mark that child, but we know that part wasn't overheard. Dumbledore knows that the prophecy is about a male child and so he tries to protect the male. My theory is that we may be hearing about a female child also born at the end of July with another set of parents who have defied the Dark Lord three times. If the theory that Voldemort planned to kill both Harry and Neville then there could be yet another child out there that is in danger that we haven't heard about yet. Maybe Susan Bones. Just a thought, Karen Gina now: Has anyone ever mentioned Dudley? His birthday is only a day or so away from Harry's isn't it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 13:49:15 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:49:15 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102813 Alice: But this would mean that having a Pensieve would be like having 360 vision and senses all the time - albeit only in retrospect. Wouldn't people USE that a lot more? Just one idea: the examiner could look into his Pensieve after the exam and check whether anybody had been cheating, talking etc. I hate it when JKRs ideas seem be logically faulty, we must find another solution... vmonte responds: Maybe this wasn't Snape's memory of the OWL day. Maybe they were Sirius's. page 646, US version: "I was watching him, his nose was touching the parchment," said Sirius viciously. "There'll be great grease marks all over it, they won't be able to read a word." Maybe that is why it appears that the penseive recorded more information than Snape could have possibly heard and saw. It was really Sirius's memories. Or someone, elses. vivian From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Fri Jun 25 14:06:48 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:06:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s Message-ID: <1e8.23d0061c.2e0d8b78@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102814 Some classes had 2 tests, a written and a practical. So they would have 2 owls for each class. Like Potions and DADA. Danielle D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jun 25 14:07:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:07:07 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > 4. God forbid! Harry kills Neville (Imperio threaders take note!) > and Voldemort can never be defeated. > A slight digression - based on an observation that I can't claim credit for - it's from a years old post I came across while browsing and that I haven't been able to find again. (Thank you Yahoo!) But it did cause me furiously to think. GoF chap. 34: ....said Voldemort softly. "Answer me! Imperio!" And Harry felt, for the *third time* in his life, the sensation...." (my emphases). Third time? How does he reach this figure? The first occasion we know of is Crouch!Moody, who we are told (GoF chap. 15) "put Harry through his paces four times in a row". Voldy in the graveyard makes it five. So maybe it's not the number of *times* the Curse was thrown but the number of *occasions* on which it was thrown. But there only seem to be two that I can find. Maybe I've missed one somewhere but I don't think so. If my count is accurate (and assuming that JKR hasn't accidentally miscounted) then somewhere in the first 4 books (or even before?) Harry has been Imperio!ed without making it obvious to the reader. I don't think we can count the climax in PS/SS as an Imperius moment, for while Harry obeys some of Quirrell!Mort's instructions he doesn't obey others. Besides, he's not described as having that floating sense of happiness and detachment that he feels on the other two occasions. So, to paraphrase a recent thread - who and when? Answers on a Post Card to 'Conspiracies Unlimited' Kneasy From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 14:14:03 2004 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:14:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102816 draco382 wrote: > > I thought i'd come out of lurkdom to put in my two cents on this > > debate -- my impression of Hermione's relationship to Harry is > > (brace yourself) one of complete respect and deference. Not in the > > subservient "Harry is my God" kind of way, mind you -- more akin to > > the statement she made back in book1: "books, > > cleverness...friendship is what's really important" > (paraphrasing). > > I think she honestly feels that Harry, although wild, untamable and > > often headstrong in many situations, has some level of authority to > > her -- and even though she has no problem with telling of Ron for > > being a prat, she might think twice when it comes to Harry. > > > > Honestly, at times she does seem to worship the guy. Probably > > because he is the only one who "matches" up to her level of > > understanding, comprehension and values. > > > > my two cents, > > draco382 > anasazi_pr wrote: > > Welcome Draco382! I think you make some valid points about Hermione's > relationship with Harry. However, I think that although she respects > him very much, I don't think she's in deference (if deference > means "Submission or yielding to the opinion, wishes, or judgment of > another. "). There are instances in canon where Hermione goes against > Harry's wishes, particularly in PoA where she did specifically what > Harry had asked her not to do and went straight to McGonagall to tell > her about the Firebolt. I believe wholeheartedly that she did this > out of concern for Harry, but she did risk her friendship with him > over this. A person who is deferent (another word for deferent is > subservient) would not have dared to go against the other person's > wishes. > > > Besides...isn't it completely possible that Hermione might find his > > qualitites desirable (not in the love sense necessarily)? As > > someone mentioned previously, Harry is, in many ways the ultimate > > alpha Male of the series... > > This is very interesting. It makes me wonder if Hermione realizes > that she possesses many of those desireable qualities. Like Harry, > she's fiercely loyal, courageous, intelligent, powerful (although as > far as we know it has to do with her brains and not her natural > ability), a risktaker, and with a good heart. > > It makes me wonder if she sees those qualities in herself. > > Peace, > Anasazi Grace replies: Coincidentally, those desirable qualities which Hermione possesses are also admired by Harry. We are told a couple of times how he is proud of her in GoF and OoP. ~Grace, who always prefers H/Hr From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 14:23:33 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:23:33 -0000 Subject: I wonder what this magic is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > " 'Get - off - me!' Harry gasped. For a few seconds they struggled, > Harry pulling at his uncles sausage-like fingers with his left hand, > his right maintaining a firm grip on his raised wand; then, as the > pain in the top of Harrys head gave a particularly nasty throb, > Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had recieved and > electric shock. Some invisible force seemed to have surged through > his nephew making him impossible to hold. " Oooohh I have never paid that much attention to that passage. That's very interesting! > Further on a paragraph suggests that Uncle Vernon had Harry in some > type of stranglehold which in turn suggests that Harry may have > internally percived a threat upon his life here. > > What I would like to discuss is which magic is this that created the > invisible force surging through Harry. > Unlike the incedent with Aunt Marge no further mention of this event > was made by anyone in the Ministry or otherwise authorative. Almost > as though nobody knew it had happened..... but for us readers. You think maybe it's because he didn't actually do anything "external", but more of a protection thing? Again, very interesting! > Is this possibly the power that the Dark Lord knows not? Is it the > protection of Lily extending beyond Voldemort? It could still be Lily's protection, but what if it's something built into all wizards and witches? I don't know.... Very, very interesting. Alora :) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 13:38:33 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:38:33 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? / the prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102818 Vivian wrote: > notice that Harry noticed that Lupin was looking strange, and he > wondered whether the full moon was approaching? I think that the > prank happened that night, after the OWL examinations. 8D I totally read it that way too!!! I just know we are going to find that out in the next books as well. "alice_loves_cats" wrote: > > Alice: > But this would mean that having a Pensieve would be like having 360 > vision and senses all the time - albeit only in retrospect. > Wouldn't people USE that a lot more? Just one idea: the examiner could > look into his Pensieve after the exam and check whether anybody had > been cheating, talking etc. This is a boon for the argument that the pensieve is not objective. Truly if it were so would the Wizard World use it for these things. Perhaps the memories are only veiwed in the way Harry viewed them by an outsider and therefore uses like these are just not practicable for the penseives owner, and so saying perhaps a pensieves owner would not like some outsider prying into their own memories making it not practicable at all. The latter consideration to me implies, if it is so, that there is some subjective recollection contained in a penseive memory and maybe that is the reason why it is not ordinarily used in these ways. Valky From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 14:26:02 2004 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:26:02 +0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102819 >~Maitresse wrote: >Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione >would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she is >only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s from >that? > >Did Bill and Percy take that many more classes? Why wouldn't >Hermione take the max amount, although I do understand that the one >O.W.L. would have been dropped for Divination. Hi. I guess that some classes counts for two O.W.L.S. because they include a theory and a practical exams. Anyway, that's the way I see it. Hope this helps. Betsy From srobles at caribe.net Fri Jun 25 02:35:46 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:35:46 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" joked: > > Anasazi joked: > > snip < > > c. O.O THE STAR WARS SCENARIO! HARRY AND HERMIONE ARE BROTHER AND > > SISTER! AND VOLDIE IS THE FATHER! (^_^) > > Oh oh oh! Does that mean there will be a prequel with baby Voldie > being discovered and tutored by a younger, less wise Dumbledore who > mistakenly lets him turn to the dark magic after his fateful encounter > with lovely princess Petunia and his befriending of two 'droids, I > mean henchmen, named Crabbe and Goyle?!?!? > > Can I call dibs on that prediction? > > boyd > apparently off my meds again LOL You can go off your meds anytime! But wouldn't you considered it a bit dissapointing if Harry and Hermione ended up being brother and sister? Not in the shippy sense, but in the sense that I would have expected something a bit more original out of JKR. Hopefully, this is just half-baked. Anasazi From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 03:08:49 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:08:49 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <002001c45a45$9f5a1220$2201a8c0@mami> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102821 Mamibunny wrote: > Both boys, during eleven years, were safe under charms: > Harry at the Dursley?s house/companion, and Neville maybe under > a memory or reduced-powers charm (provided by DD). I think it > is possible that both boys will be in the last fight against LV > -- together -- and Neville will have his abilities completely > restored, so he can defeat LV. Hey, I would just like to say that I don't think that Neville is under any reduced-powers charm, because in the fifth book, he tries really hard in the DA, and is second best to Hermione in succesfully completing a lot of the charms...also his skill at Herbology, but that could have nothing to do with magical skill anyway so... --hallisallimalli From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 25 15:52:54 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:52:54 -0000 Subject: Dudley the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102822 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: [stuff about the prophecy snipped] > Gina now: > Has anyone ever mentioned Dudley? His birthday is only a day or > so away from Harry's isn't it? No, Dudley is considerably older than Harry: he's mobile at the very least. Quoting from HP:PS (UK Paperback p15 McGonagall speaking) "And they've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets." (UK Paperback p18 narrative) "... he slept on ... not knowing ... that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley ..." I read this as indicating that Dudley is at least crawling and maybe a toddler. On the other hand he cannot be that much older than Harry since they are both transferring from primary to secondary school at the same time, so he must be within the same year group. -- Phil From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 25 16:24:52 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Phil=20Boswell?=) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: <20040625162452.63596.qmail@web25405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102823 "Shannon" wrote: > The thought that all students would have to go to > Diagon Alley to get their school supplies anyway, > since even in Hogsmeade I do not remember them saying > anything about stores that carry the supplies the > kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that > they travel from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's > not like in the WW they have to travel as muggles do, > they can apparate and travel by floo and other ways > to get to the area. You would have thought, however, that there would be an equivalent to Diagon Alley in at least one other city. Edinburgh or Glasgow would be good candidates, since they are in the same country as "Britain's leading school of magic". Mind you, didn't Hagrid say that Gringotts has just the one branch? So maybe all the WW shops congregate around that. -- Phil ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jun 25 17:37:54 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:37:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102824 "draco382" wrote: > I thought i'd come out of lurkdom to put in my two cents on this > debate -- my impression of Hermione's relationship to Harry is > (brace yourself) one of complete respect and deference. Not in the > subservient "Harry is my God" kind of way, mind you -- more akin to > the statement she made back in book1: "books, > cleverness...friendship is what's really important" (paraphrasing). > I think she honestly feels that Harry, although wild, untamable and > often headstrong in many situations, has some level of authority to > her -- and even though she has no problem with telling of Ron for > being a prat, she might think twice when it comes to Harry. > > Honestly, at times she does seem to worship the guy. Probably > because he is the only one who "matches" up to her level of > understanding, comprehension and values. ---------------------- Arya: I wonder, might "admire" be the term you are looking for as opposed to "deference"? I see your points and do believe that Hermione puts very few people as her equal or superior in any regard and that Harry is indeed one of these in several regards. Perhaps even "adoration" is something I see in how Hermione views Harry at times. Whatever it is, I see Hermione believing that even Harry's worst faults are actually caused by very honourable intentions. IMO, she thinks the world of him. -------------------- "draco382" wrote: > Besides...isn't it completely possible that Hermione might find his > qualitites desirable (not in the love sense necessarily)? As > someone mentioned previously, Harry is, in many ways the ultimate > alpha Male of the series... --------------------- Arya: Oh I think she certainly does see these as admirable qualities. Remember who her first crush was? The renowned and much revered honorary member of the Dark Force Defense League and Vanquisher of every brand of evil--Gilderoy Lockhart. Even Hermione's fondness of Viktor and apparent dating of him speaks towards this. For all intents and purposes, we see Viktor as an honourable person and not a young man who was enticed by scores of swooning fans and girls; instead he proves to have higher standards by falling for the our Hermione who we all know was not a simpering fan. I might also infer Hermione felt flattered and sympathetic to Viktor's desire to find someone who would appreciate him for who he was and not his fame; a desire I that can easily be seen of one of Harry's, as well. Arya From asalvador at sjs.org Fri Jun 25 17:02:43 2004 From: asalvador at sjs.org (Salvador, Anjali) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:02:43 -0500 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background Message-ID: <38230-22004652517243980@sjs.org> No: HPFGUIDX 102825 Ravenclaw Bookworm: Could it be that Headmaster Dippett died in December? That happened a few years ago in the school where I am now working - the principal died the week before school started and a new principal was assigned. It seems entirely possible that Dumbledore was the Deputy just as Professor McGonagall is now. Anjali: That would make sense, but for one thing-the chronology isn't right. According to the thirty-nine years thing, McGonagall started teaching in 1956. In PoA we find out that Remus didn't think he could attend Hogwarts until after Dumbledore became headmaster, which implies that Dumbledore didn't become headmaster until after Remus was born (the Lexicon says that he was born in either 1959 or 1960). So the only way McGonagall would have begun teaching because of Dippet's death would be for someone else to be head of the school between 1956 and whenever Dumbledore became headmaster. Of course, it's entirely possible, as Potioncat said, that there was more than one teacher for one subject. I still haven't figured out how McGonagall is able to teach all of the students and fulfill her administrative obligations as Deputy Headmistress. Perhaps she initially was an assistant or taught Defense Against the Dark Arts? That last would make sense, particularly if she was involved in the war against Grindlewald. Speaking of which, does anyone know where any of the teachers' personal quarters are situated? McGonagall isn't inside Gryffindor Tower (she comes in through the portrait hole when interrupting a post-game party) but she's able to hear the Gryffindors being loud from wherever she is. Also, Neville seems to know where they are, because he goes and gets her when Harry has his vision. Maybe there are alerts of some sort, to let the Heads of Houses know what's going on in their respective common rooms. Just a few thoughts. Anjali From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:20:46 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:20:46 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "~Maitresse" wrote: > Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione > would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she is > only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s from > that? > > Did Bill and Percy take that many more classes? Why wouldn't > Hermione take the max amount, although I do understand that the one > O.W.L. would have been dropped for Divination. Though how anyone > could get an O.W.L. in Divination, I don't know. > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, > > ~Maitresse Asian_lovr2: Actually, there are TWELVE available classes at Hogwarts, not counting Quidditch and Flying class. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/classes/classes.html But it would be very unlikely that anyone could take all these classes. Even Hermione's class load, which is less than total, is more than any student could handle without magical help (time turner). Beyond the core classes of Potions, Charms, Transfigurations, History of Magic, Herbology, Astronomy, and Defense against Dark Arts, Hermione is taking Ancient Runes, Arithmacy, and Care of Magical Creatures. Total: 10 classes. At the end of PoA, she dropped Muggle Studies and Divination to make here schedule more manageable. So at one point, Hermione was taking every available class; 12 total. Harry and Ron are taking the 7 core classes as well as Divination, and Care of Magical Creatures for a total of 9 classes. Someone else worked this out in a past discussion, but some classes are Theory plus Practical, others are theory or written test only, and other still are practical only. Classes like Astronomy appear to have a Practical only test. They go to the top of the Astronomy Tower and identify stars and their location. History of Magic on the other hand is a written test only. Classes of Charms, Potions, Transfigurations, and DADA are all practical and written. Based on this analysis, I estimate that there are a total of 16 possible O.W.L.s. Based on previous discussions of O.W.L.s and the real world GCSE tests, it is possible to take a test in a class you have never taken. For example, if you have a natural interest in history, you could take the History GCSE and receive certification in that subject without ever having taken any advanced history classes. When I entered College I took what are called CLEP tests, and much to my amazement, I received a full college credit in biology without having to take college level Biology classes. Don't have a clue how that happened, but take it when you can get it. Example, if one was very good at Potions, one could apply that knowledge to Herbology and pass the Herbology test without having taken the class. Or, Harry and Hermione could take the test for Muggle Studies and gain an OWL in that class without ever having taken it. The only problem would be conflicting test schedules. As we saw from Hermione's example, she had to use the Time Turner to take two tests at once on more than one occassion. I suspect for a brilliant student the teacher might be willing to make some accomodations. I estimate that Harry and Ron are eligible for 13 possible OWLs and Hermione is eligible for 14. I further estimate (or speculate) that Harry and Ron will get between 8 and 10 OLWs (very respectable), and Hermione, of course, will get a full 14. Just one man's opinion. Steve/Asian_lvor2 From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jun 25 18:27:01 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:27:01 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? / the prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102827 > > Alice: > > But this would mean that having a Pensieve would be like having 360 > > vision and senses all the time - albeit only in retrospect. > > Wouldn't people USE that a lot more? Just one idea: the examiner could > > look into his Pensieve after the exam and check whether anybody had > > been cheating, talking etc. Valky: > This is a boon for the argument that the pensieve is not objective. > > Truly if it were so would the Wizard World use it for these things. > Ally: But whose to say everyone has a pensieve? Only DD appears to have one. Just like not everyone has a time turner or a Marauder's Map or an invisibility cloak. The fact that DD said its useful to gain perspective on an event and the fact that it showed things Snape apparently wasn't consciously aware of when they were happening (eg the Marauders conversation about werewolves) makes me think it takes all of the conscious and subconscious aspects of the memory and puts them all on display for you. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:31:16 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:31:16 -0000 Subject: Understanding OWLs : Note: OWLs without NEWTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102828 Asian_lovr2: Sorry for this short post, but I wanted to add a note to what I had previously written about OWLs. It is possible to get an OWL in say Potions, and not be eligible for NEWT level potions. It only takes an 'Acceptable' grade to get an OWL but it takes an 'Outstanding' to get into NEWT level Potions. So, Harry my get an OWL in Potions. By his own estimation, he doesn't think he did well, but feels he at least managed a Passing grade. Most of us suspect he did better than he thinks, but certainly didn't make the 'Outstanding' grade. Just a note. Steve/asian_lovr2 From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:36:11 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:36:11 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102829 I apologise if this hs been written before - I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. We all know that you cannot aperate into Hogwarts. But, it seems that there is no trouble using the Floo network to go in and out of Hogwarts. ...if their heads can be in another fire, then why not their entire body? Wouldn't this be a very easy way to break into Hogwarts? Any theories??? ~Mo From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:35:45 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:35:45 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Betsy Cort?s" wrote: > >~Maitresse wrote: > >Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione > >would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she is > >only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s from > >that? > > > >Did Bill and Percy take that many more classes? Why wouldn't > >Hermione take the max amount, although I do understand that the one > >O.W.L. would have been dropped for Divination. > > Betsey: > Hi. I guess that some classes counts for two O.W.L.S. because they include > a theory and a practical exams. Lady McBeth Okay, there are 12 courses offered before OWLs: DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, History of Magic, Charms, Astronomy, Herbology, Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Divination, Care of Magical Creatures, and Muggle Studies. It is possible to earn 12 OWLs. It would make sense then, that each course has only one OWL. How on earth could you earn all 12? Hermione couldn't stay in all 12 classes, she dropped Muggle Studies and Divination. I think particularly adept students could learn a subject on their own or with help from the teacher for that class, a 7th year, or their Head of House. Muggle Studies, for example could probably be passed without taking the course, just by doing the readings for the class. Divination and Care of Magical Creatures would probably fall into the same catagory. I took and passed several Advanced Placement tests, in high school, without ever taking the classes, just did some studying on my own. Students at HOgwarts take 7 classes their first two years and then add 2 more their 3rd year. If each practical exam and each theory exam counts for one OWL it adds up to 17 OWLs (History of Magic would not have a practical exam) Either JKR is having trouble with her maths again or . . . Lady McBeth From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 25 18:27:17 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:27:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? References: <1088146843.4710.56756.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001801c45ae2$0bdc1d20$d84a6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 102831 Alla quoted: >"Question: >How can two Muggles have a kid with magical powers? Also how does the >Ministry of Magic find out these kids have powers? > >A. It's the same as two black-haired people producing a redheaded >child. Sometimes these things just happen, and no one really knows >why! The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. >In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a >magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment >book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls >to the people who are turning 11. " >I think the last sentence implies that every magical child gets >Hogwarts letter. Thanks for posting that, I'd wondered for a while about the exact wording of the question that JKR answered. Remember that she's answering a question about how _Muggle-born_ children get discovered for Hogwarts, not about _all_ WW children. That makes sense to me. If a child has a Muggle parent, then they will not necessarily have grown up with the ability to survive in the WW, they just wouldn't have the right mindset to move from a world where things are done using technology and within the limits of technology to a world in which magic is the key. They don't know the history, the culture, even the language. Perhaps this was one of the debates that the Founders had around who should go to Hogwarts, back in the 10th century. But it allows for a situation where not all WW children go there. As far as they are concerned, it appears to be an elite school where it's expected that the children of the aristocracy go, as well as the more talented children of the bureaucracy, the ones who are likely to aim for a career in the Ministry or some other professional function. This in turn brings up two questions in my mind: 1. Does the fact that Muggleborns and aristocrats are side by side at the same school foster the "Them and us" attitude among the "pure blood" faction? Bearing in mind the size of Hogwarts compared to the size of the WW and the fact that the number of Muggleborn children is pretty insignificant, might this be so? 2. Conversely, does the fact that all Muggleborn children go to an elite school of Witchcraft and Wizardry give them a higher relative profile in the WW by virtue of the fact that they are more likely to end up in visible positions as adults? Could this also feed anti-Muggleborn prejudice? But JKR alone knows all Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 25 18:45:21 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:45:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley the prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102832 > Gina: > Has anyone ever mentioned Dudley? His birthday is only a day or > so away from Harry's isn't it? No, Dudley is considerably older than Harry: he's mobile at the very least. Quoting from HP:PS (UK Paperback p15 McGonagall speaking) "And they've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets." (UK Paperback p18 narrative) "... he slept on ... not knowing ... that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley ..." I read this as indicating that Dudley is at least crawling and maybe a toddler. On the other hand he cannot be that much older than Harry since they are both transferring from primary to secondary school at the same time, so he must be within the same year group. -- Phil Gina again: Phil, I did not mean to imply the same year. Dudley probably is older than Harry, but did the prophecy specify a YEAR of birth? I thought it only said the end of July and Dudley's birthday is obviously the end of July b/c Harry's is a very few days later. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:49:19 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:49:19 -0000 Subject: Understanding OWLs : Note: OWLs without NEWTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Asian_lovr2: > > Sorry for this short post, but I wanted to add a note to what I had > previously written about OWLs. > > It is possible to get an OWL in say Potions, and not be eligible for > NEWT level potions. It only takes an 'Acceptable' grade to get an OWL > but it takes an 'Outstanding' to get into NEWT level Potions. > > So, Harry my get an OWL in Potions. By his own estimation, he doesn't > think he did well, but feels he at least managed a Passing grade. Most > of us suspect he did better than he thinks, but certainly didn't make > the 'Outstanding' grade. > > Just a note. > > Steve/asian_lovr2 I think it is VERY possibly Harry got an Outstanding in his Potions OWL - along with several unsuspecting candidates. Reason being is that Snape is EXTREMELY hard on his students. So, I am guessing that they are above average for their level as compared to other Wizarding Schools. Even if they don't get Outstandings in his class by Snapes own grading standard, there is a possibility they could get an Outstanding on their OWL. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 18:55:50 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:55:50 -0000 Subject: I wonder what this magic is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > In OotP on page 10 of my edition printed in Australia, I found > this... > > " 'Get - off - me!' Harry gasped. For a few seconds they struggled, > Harry pulling at his uncles sausage-like fingers with his left hand, > his right maintaining a firm grip on his raised wand; then, as the > pain in the top of Harrys head gave a particularly nasty throb, > Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had recieved and > electric shock. Some invisible force seemed to have surged through > his nephew making him impossible to hold. " > > Further on a paragraph suggests that Uncle Vernon had Harry in some > type of stranglehold which in turn suggests that Harry may have > internally percived a threat upon his life here. > > What I would like to discuss is which magic is this that created the > invisible force surging through Harry. > Unlike the incedent with Aunt Marge no further mention of this event > was made by anyone in the Ministry or otherwise authorative. Almost > as though nobody knew it had happened..... but for us readers. > > Is this possibly the power that the Dark Lord knows not? Is it the > protection of Lily extending beyond Voldemort? > > Suggestions..... comments........ rebuttals......??? > > Valky Very cool theory! I never thought of it that way before. When I read the passage, I thought that Harry subconsciously created a surge - kind of like the defense mechanism of an electric eel. I was wondering why he wouldn't get an official warning for the use of underage magic. But, I really like your theory! It does make sense. And, it is always uncanny how Harry can get out of the most difficult of situations. This was just a small incident. But, JKR has a tendency of putting big clues into small incidents... ~Mo From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 19:25:24 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:25:24 -0000 Subject: Cognitive Science of Wizards?? (was Re: Pensieve = Security Camera? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102835 >>> Ally wrote: >>> But whose to say everyone has a pensieve? Only DD appears to have one. Just like not everyone has a time turner or a Marauder's Map or an invisibility cloak. The fact that DD said its useful to gain perspective on an event and the fact that it showed things Snape apparently wasn't consciously aware of when they were happening (eg the Marauders conversation about werewolves) makes me think it takes all of the conscious and subconscious aspects of the memory and puts them all on display for you. <<< Bren now: Heh, you took the words out of my mouth (or fingers, rather). Though I still believe that Pensieve is more than "all of the conscious and subconscious aspects of the memory", since it contains parts that even unconscious self couldn't have picked up (e.g. James & Sirius during DADA OWL exam). I wonder what kind of magic is required to be able to use Pensieve properly. Extremely powerful one I imagine? In Message 102335 Alina said "It [Pensieve] seems to me of the family of magic to which Occlumency and Legilimency also belong" and I agree with her. Pensieve may belong to an obscure branch of magic (just like Legilimency) and it may require very strong and stable state of mind from the wizard. But what is up with all the "obscurity" in memory-storage and mind- reading? True, these are grey areas of cognitive science in humans as well, but it seems even more so in WW. Perhaps wizards' cognitive state is at a higher level than that of Muggles. Maybe there is an intricate network laid down in wizard individuals and their cognition is somehow connected. A network of WW cognition with a very thick wall that one can only get through with hard practice. Heck, there might be the Wizard Oracle/ Wizard Big Brother who controls ... everything. That is a scary (and far-fetched, yes I know ;P) thought. Good thing the new season of Alias doesn't start till next January, perhaps . Bren, who is not too sure of her post herself. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 25 19:31:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:31:04 -0000 Subject: Dudley the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102836 > Gina again: > Phil, I did not mean to imply the same year. Dudley probably is older > than Harry, but did the prophecy specify a YEAR of birth? I thought it only > said the end of July and Dudley's birthday is obviously the end of July b/c > Harry's is a very few days later. > Potioncat: IIRC, it was determined that Dudley's birthday is several weeks before Harry's. It seems May or June was the most likely date. This was based on the snake episode (I think) in SS/PS. Harry misses school while he is confined and when he is allowed out, the Holidays have begun. I am posting this from memory of prior posts since, as poor as my memory is, it's better than my search skills. It seems a bit confusing, because the little Dudley as described in the first chapter of SS is far more mobile than the little Harry. From draco382 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 19:31:51 2004 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:31:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102837 > anasazi_pr wrote: > > > > Welcome Draco382! I think you make some valid points about > Hermione's > > relationship with Harry. However, I think that although she > respects > > him very much, I don't think she's in deference (if deference > > means "Submission or yielding to the opinion, wishes, or judgment > of > > another. "). There are instances in canon where Hermione goes > against > > Harry's wishes, particularly in PoA where she did specifically > what > > Harry had asked her not to do and went straight to McGonagall to > tell > > her about the Firebolt. I believe wholeheartedly that she did this > > out of concern for Harry, but she did risk her friendship with him > > over this. A person who is deferent (another word for deferent is > > subservient) would not have dared to go against the other person's > > wishes. Now me: Thank you for the welcome!! :-) I was thinking about that Firebolt scene in POA, and I don't disagree with you that she was driven to report the Firebolt out of concern for Harry. But, if I remember correctly, Hermione appeared to suffer GREATLY before telling him that it might be from Sirius -- her body language still gives me the impression that telling McGonagal (and knowingly upsetting Harry) was something she REALLY didn't want to do (understandably), even though it was for Harry's good. In general, I think Hermione expresses her opinions (when they are contradictory to Harry) with a great deal of fear -- she doesn't seem to have this problem when it comes to Ron, Lavender, Trelawny, etc... even when expressing her opinion to those people might (and has) upset them. Arya: I wonder, might "admire" be the term you are looking for as opposed to "deference"? me: I do think she does admire Harry, but I still lean more heavily on "deference" -- early on, many listees pointed out that Hermione's desire to study hard and obsess about school springs from some very deep insecurity -- and i think this is very crucial. I feel that Hermione is well aware that while she clings desperately to her books, Harry somehow manages to get by on pure confidence alone, and this quality is very desirable to her. anasazi: This is very interesting. It makes me wonder if Hermione realizes > that she possesses many of those desireable qualities. Like Harry, > she's fiercely loyal, courageous, intelligent, powerful (although as > far as we know it has to do with her brains and not her natural > ability), a risktaker, and with a good heart. grace wrote: Coincidentally, those desirable qualities which Hermione possesses are also admired by Harry. We are told a couple of times how he is proud of her in GoF and OoP. now me: I agree! i only wish Harry would verbalize a little and maybe tell her how awesome she is! I'm sure it would mean the world to her... my two cents, draco382 From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 19:34:33 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:34:33 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102838 >>> ~Mo wrote: > I apologise if this hs been written before - I did a quick search > and couldn't find anything. > > We all know that you cannot aperate into Hogwarts. But, it seems > that there is no trouble using the Floo network to go in and out of > Hogwarts. ... if their heads can be in another fire, then why not > their entire body? > > Wouldn't this be a very easy way to break into Hogwarts? <<< Bren: You have NO IDEA how much I thought of that everytime Sirius was talking to Harry in fire. It would've been *really cool* if Harry kept him as Padfoot in his dormentory. But when you are talking to someone in fire, your body is still left behind, right? Like your lower limbs would be outside of the fireplace, not *in* it. So that would be an incomplete Apparition, if you can call it that even. Perhaps there are all sorts of charms/old magic protection which create a barrier in front of the Gryffindor fireplace. You can see someone's head *in* the fire since it's part of Floo network, but once you try to get into the commonroom through fireplace, you might not be able to. AFter all, we don't see Sirius trying to hug Harry in fire or even attempting to make any physical fatherly-contact. What do you think? Bren From soleta_nf at yahoo.ca Fri Jun 25 18:08:21 2004 From: soleta_nf at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?House=20Yolande?=) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and the War) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040625180821.27252.qmail@web40403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102839 First Haggridd wrote: After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about Sirius as an unregistered animagus. Then Meri wrote: And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the first war? Then Yolande wrote: I would say no since Peter Pettigrew worked for LV in the first war as well. Perhaps Peter just didn't get around to sharing that information before Godric's Hollow. But if attacking Hogwarts was a priority, I think he would have told LV. Although that would mean the DE's have known this information (Sirius an animagus, secret passages, etc.) for years... What do others think? Then Bookworm wrote: I have wondered for a while now just how much Wormtail supported Voldemort during the first war. From his comment in the Shrieking Shack, I have thought that he joined Voldemort out of fear ? he wanted to get on Voldemort's "good" side in case Voldemort won, but didn't really want to hurt his friends, so tried to give away as little information as possible. <> (Paraphrased from POA) I can just see him panicking when Sirius suggested making him the Secret Keeper ? now he would have information that he couldn't hide from Voldemort (not with V's legilimency) but would hurt his friends. After Godric's Hollow, he had both Sirius and the DE's looking for him so he *had* to disappear. When he was `outed' as Scabbers, he would have had no where else to go but to Voldemort. Now Yolande responds: I think you're right. That explains why LV or the DE's don't seem to have that information or act on it. It's too bad that Sirius and Lupin didn't understand this - they could have given PP an 'out', a reason NOT to go back to LV. Whether sincere or not, that may have convinced Pettigrew that he had another option and thus he may not have tried to escape or even returned with them willingly. Do you think Pettigrew will tell LV everything he knows after POA, or do you think he is still reluctant in GOF? If Pettigrew is still reluctant, that opens up a lot of possibilities for him turning on LV at some point. Last summer someone on this list (sorry, I don't remember who) wrote about PP's debt to Harry for Harry saving his life, and PP's repayment of that debt may be a factor in LV's downfall. I think these two together - the debt to Harry and reluctance to follow LV - make a very powerful case for PP turning on LV at some point. Which is very exciting. :) Yolande --------------------------------- L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jun 25 19:44:32 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:44:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102840 Bren: You have NO IDEA how much I thought of that everytime Sirius was talking to Harry in fire. It would've been *really cool* if Harry kept him as Padfoot in his dormentory. But when you are talking to someone in fire, your body is still left behind, right? Like your lower limbs would be outside of the fireplace, not *in* it. So that would be an incomplete Apparition, if you can call it that even. Perhaps there are all sorts of charms/old magic protection which create a barrier in front of the Gryffindor fireplace. You can see someone's head *in* the fire since it's part of Floo network, but once you try to get into the commonroom through fireplace, you might not be able to. AFter all, we don't see Sirius trying to hug Harry in fire or even attempting to make any physical fatherly-contact. What do you think? Bren Gina: Bren, I see what you mean. I remember when someone (Amos maybe? Can't remember) shows up in the Weasley's fire at the Boro Mrs. Weasley puts the toast in his mouth I assume because his limbs are not there. So maybe you can use the Hogwarts fires in the dorms to talk but CANNOT use them as the floo for traveling. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jun 25 19:45:01 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:45:01 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102841 Steve, now Asian_lovr2 wrote: >>> Beyond the core classes of Potions, Charms, Transfigurations, History of Magic, Herbology, Astronomy, and Defense against Dark Arts, Hermione is taking Ancient Runes, Arithmacy, and Care of Magical Creatures. Total: 10 classes. At the end of PoA, she dropped Muggle Studies and Divination to make here schedule more manageable. So at one point, Hermione was taking every available class; 12 total. Someone else worked this out in a past discussion, but some classes are Theory plus Practical, others are theory or written test only, and other still are practical only. Based on this analysis, I estimate that there are a total of 16 possible O.W.L.s.>>>> Ali responds: I disagree. It's fair to assume that O.W.L.s are like O'Levels (Ordinary Level exams). For O'levels, some subjects had both theory and practical papers, but we were still only awarded one O'Level per subject. I don't believe that having to be tested in two different ways will mean that they get two O.W.L.s. Also, it is hardly such a wonderful achievement to get 12 O.W.L.s, if there were a total of 16 available. However, there is a possibility that some subjects are deemed large enough that they merit more than one O.W.L. For example, depending on where it was studied, students could study Physics, Chemistry and Biology separately (I never did Biology), and get an O'Level in each subject, or they could study "General Science" which would be worth 2 O'Levels. It is certainly possible that say Potions was worth 2 O.W.L.s because of the width of the subject matter. I actually don't think that canon bears this argument out though as there is only discussion of "Potions" and "Transfiguration" etc when it comes to Harry's career guidance. Steve again: >>> The only problem would be conflicting test schedules. As we saw from Hermione's example, she had to use the Time Turner to take two tests at once on more than one occassion. I suspect for a brilliant student the teacher might be willing to make some accomodations.>> Ali: Again this might be possible, but if it happens, I don't think it happened to Hermione - I think she would have said if that had happened. Besides, it is possible to re-schedule an exam if there is a conflict - the student with the subject clash is kept away from all their fellow students under the constant eye of a teacher to ensure no cheating takes place (this can even be over night), they then take the same exam as their friends, a little late. Steve: >>> I estimate that Harry and Ron are eligible for 13 possible OWLs and Hermione is eligible for 14. I further estimate (or speculate) that Harry and Ron will get between 8 and 10 OLWs (very espectable), and Hermione, of course, will get a full 14. >>> Ali: JKR has said that 12 is the maximum number of OWLS available, in her World Book Day chat. Notice that she says "I think so" - to me, that would be because she actually hasn't thought it through, and is covering herself. I would argue that 12 is the maximum number of OWLs that a student can *normally* get at any one time. They could presumably go and study an OWL again at a later stage - as people did with O'Levels and their replacement GCSEs. I agree with Steve's argument that a Muggle-born could potentially take Muggle-studies without studying the subject, although I don't believe that this is what happened in the two cases we know where 12 OWLS were awarded, or in the case of Hermione. But the possbility must exist. << Yes, I think it is off the top of my head >>> I believe that the maximum number of O.W.L.s which a student can achieve in any one exam period is 12. So, I suppose that Hermione will either be doing 12 O.W.L.s, or JKR has got her maths wrong. I prefer the former explanation, but suspect the latter. Ali From AntaresCheryl at aol.com Fri Jun 25 18:33:32 2004 From: AntaresCheryl at aol.com (AntaresCheryl at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:33:32 EDT Subject: Gum Wrappers??? Message-ID: <12a.44c38bd9.2e0dc9fc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102842 Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? (Remember, at the hospital, Alice gave him a gum wrapper and Neville's Grandmother makes a comment something like, "Another one? Thank you dear.") If you have gone to JK Rowling's official website, there are gum wrappers strewn all over the desktop on the home page of her desk.... Cheryl H. "I wrote it down in the diary so that I wouldn't HAVE to remember." Henry Jones, Sr to Indiana Jones in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 19:51:31 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:51:31 -0000 Subject: Dudley the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: >> It seems a bit confusing, because the little Dudley as described in > the first chapter of SS is far more mobile than the little Harry. I'm a mom of four kids, as I am sure there are others here. But speaking from a point of view of baby/toddler mobility, it's very possible that with Dudley being only even, let's say, 4 or 5 weeks older, that he is more mobile. It's amazing what a few weeks mean in child development! One week your 8 month old is barely crawling, and then boom! He or she is walking in 3 weeks. Depending on how old Harry was when the Dursley's got him ( I tend to think he was around one yr old), I think Dudley was more than able to poke him and pinch him, hehe. Just some thoughts.. Alora From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 20:02:38 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:02:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Motives? (was Re: Lupin was the spy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102844 Ahh, another ESE!Lupin post!! Awesome. >>> Snow wrote: It is quite possible that Sirius assumed that James switched to Peter as secret keeper but that Lily may have questioned Sirius' loyalty, to herself and James, because of this last minute request. Lily feeling suspicious of Sirius' behavior could have suggested to James that they should rethink their position and entrust Lupin instead so that Sirius wouldn't know whom the secret keeper actually was in case Lily's suspicions were correct. <<< This will definitely explain the bridge scene from Prisoner of Azkaban movie. Did anyone else think the movie Lupin didn't appear to be all that innocent and decent as he is in the books?? >>> Rebecca wrote: If Sirius *had* been the spy, this would have been a pretty good plan from his view. He convinces them to switch to Peter, tells Voldemort this, Voldemort breaks Peter, then if someone presses Sirius about this later, he can *truthfully* say he wasn't the secret-keeper. AND if Lily or James happened to survive, they'd back him up. <<< VERY NICE!!! Didn't think of that! >>> Rebecca wrote: (perhaps they were less suspicious of him that Sirius was--which begs the question, why was Sirius more suspicious of Lupin than he was of Peter?). <<< Bren: That really puzzles me too, even after all the ESE!Lupin talk. The thing about ESE!Lupin theory that bugs me is -- what does Lupin gain by all this? I was under the impression that Voldemort & co. hated *half*... EVERYTHING. True, VM might have been the only one who knew of Lupin's true ally (so DEs' hatred of half-humans wouldn't matter), but I can't imagine Voldemort welcoming Lupin with open arms. Although, who would say NO to someone willing to spy one's enemy (ie. the Order)? But I thought Lupin feared that his friends would left him. He wanted to be liked, very badly. He couldn't have his Prefect authority over them. Sure, he might not want all that now, but 15 years ago I think he still did. So what made him decide to betray his friends? The only friends who accepted him for who he is, not what he is. Is Lupin that indecent? Or is it in the nature of Werewolves to be that foul? Maybe Werewolves are natural allies with Dementors and VM. And maybe Lupin is torn between his human feelings and werewolf instinct. If so, he's keeping a very good charade for someone who's tormented inside. >>> Rebecca (who's wondering, with all this talk of ESE!Lupin, where Pippin has been this week) <<< Hahahaha, yeah, where *is* Pippin? I would love to see her input on oh-so-ambiguous Lupin and his motives. Bren From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 20:13:50 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:13:50 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102845 >>> Gina wrote: I remember when someone (Amos maybe? Can't remember) shows up in the Weasley's fire at the Boro Mrs. Weasley puts the toast in his mouth I assume because his limbs are not there. So maybe you can use the Hogwarts fires in the dorms to talk but CANNOT use them as the floo for traveling. <<< Bren: Ooh, yeah that too. I had forgotten about that (how can I forget about a toast? Curious ;P) It was Amos Diggory talking to Arthur about the disaster at the Quidditch World Cup. Or maybe Mrs. Weasley put it in his mouth because Amos was in hurry and she didn't want him to waste more time. After all, Burrow isn't the Apparition- proof place like Hogwarts, we see the older Weasley brothers Apparating everywhere. Wizards use the Floo network for traveling (like to Diagon & Knockturn Alley in CoS). This will be dangerous for wizarding break-and-enter. Or how about when the Order members came to Privet Drive? Did they Apparate or did they use the Floo? Bren From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 20:37:00 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:37:00 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102846 >>> I, Bren, wrote: I do think Harry had an absolutely horrible year, but it still doesn't justify him rashing out on his emotion, IMHO. All these anger, rage, and even using Crucio... he's becoming non other than VM himself!! If Harry's had such a hard life than so did Voldemort. His muggle father abandoning his witch mother, his mom dying right after his birth, being raised in an orphanage. At least Harry had a "family" better than the orphanage staffs. Top that with a surge of snaky Salazar's blood running through him (is he the last remaining "ancestor" of Salazar? I heard that JKR meant it that way. That is quite odd. Time-turning again?) - not so different from Harry! Harry = VM = Salazar?!?! Yikes! >>> Then Vivian responded: I think that Harry does need to learn how to control his emotions (and I think he will in book 6/7) but I don't think that his behavior in OOTP was unjustified. I feel really sorry for Harry, can't he ever get a break! He's been fighting for 4 years against Voldemort and no one has the decency to tell him what is going on?! I would be angry! Regular 15 year olds can be a pain in the %#@, what with hormones and all. How about a hormonal fifteen year old that has the weight of the WW on his shoulders? <<< Bren now: Yeah, that is precisely why I'm still willing to give him more chances despite of his rash behaviours throughout OoP. And btw, I think you meant to say "pain in the %##", not "%#@", lol!!! >>> Vivian: And about Tom Riddle, sorry, I feel no compassion for him at all. This guy doesn't even show compassion or loyalty to his own DE's?! Petunia isn't much better. Locking her sister's son in a cupboard, starving him, and mistreating him -- what a bit%h! Just because her sister was popular, and talented! She needs to get over it already. Honestly, how Harry survived past being a toddler is miraculous. <<< Bren: Well, I feel some degree of compassion for Tom Riddle. NOT Voldemort, but Tom Riddle. I believe that "Voldemort = TR + Vapormort" like someone suggested in this group. You have to admit, he had a HORRIBLE childhood as well, if not worse than HArry's. At least Harry had a "home". TR had to live in an orphanage because his RICH dad walked out on his mom, leaving him there. And I imagine orphanages 50 years ago would have been pretty brutal and abusive as well. I said this because there are ALOT of similarities between Harry and Tom (Not VM, young Tom). They are both: - Half-blood - Parents-less - abused/ not loved - of similar appearances, though Tom is much taller - MARKED ONES who both had "the weight of the WW on his shoulders" *Tom: Heir of Slytherin, with the oh-so-great mission to "purge those who are not worthy of studying Magic" *Harry: Voldemort's Equal, who must be either the murderer or the victim of VM My point is that their teenage selves are almost identical, and if Harry is not careful then he might become something like Voldemort himself. I'm sure if the book was written from Tom Riddle's POV, with all of his intimate thoughts & pain, with him interacting with *his* friends who share the same ideology, then we might feel the same compassion towards Tom that we do with Harry. But then this compassion shouldn't justify Tom Riddle, right? He turned to Dark Arts for outlet, who's to say HArry wouldn't? He already used Crucio! and he even learned *how* to do it properly. As for Harry having the great heart and Tom Riddle didn't -- I wonder if Harry didn't know his parents AT ALL and his mom didn't die to save him, he would have been even more similar to Tom Riddle. What do you think? As for Aunt Petunia... is all the abuse even *legal*? I wonder if she could've been arrested for that... Brenda From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 25 21:41:22 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:41:22 -0000 Subject: Dudley the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina: > > Has anyone ever mentioned Dudley? His birthday is only a day or so > away from Harry's isn't it? > Geoff: May I direct you to a thread entitled "Seventh Month Dudley" which consisted of 8 posts beginning at message 89606 and ending at message 89687. There is a long discussion there on the date of Dudley's birthday. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 25 21:50:44 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:50:44 -0000 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > "Salvador, Anjali" wrote: > > "How long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" Professor Umbridge > > asked. > > "Thirty-nine years this December," said Professor McGonagall > > brusquely, snapping her bag shut. > > -Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 321 (American > > edition) > > > > Was anyone other than myself confused by this? Why would McGonagall > > have started teaching in December? After all, she teaches > > Transfiguration, and in CoS it says that Dumbledore taught > > Transfiguration himself, so she, presumably was his successor. > What, > > though, would have made Dumbledore stop teaching in the middle of > the > > year? > > > > Potioncat: > But it does seem that something happened that December to cause > McGonagall to come on in mid year. Geoff: It is not unusual in the UK for staff to change schools at the beginning of the Spring term in January. Promotions, moves, retirements etc provoke this activity. Professor McGonagall could have been being ultra pedantic (being rather miffed with DJU). If she started at Hogwarts in January 1957, then she would be quite correct in saying that she was completing 39 years of teaching in December 1995, because she would be /starting/ on her 40th year in January 1996. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 22:26:58 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:26:58 -0000 Subject: Minerva McGonagall's background Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102849 Salvador, Anjali" wrote: > > "How long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" Professor Umbridge > > asked. > > "Thirty-nine years this December," said Professor McGonagall > > brusquely, snapping her bag shut. > > -Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 321 (American > > edition) > > > > Was anyone other than myself confused by this? Why would McGonagall > > have started teaching in December? After all, she teaches > > Transfiguration, and in CoS it says that Dumbledore taught > > Transfiguration himself, so she, presumably was his successor. > What, > > though, would have made Dumbledore stop teaching in the middle of > the > > year? Leah: We know from the Diary that Dumbledore was Transfigurations teacher when Tom Riddle opened the Chamber. I make this 1942 but I stand to be corrected. We are told by the Chocolate Frog cards that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in 1945. We have to surmise off canon here, but it seems unlikely that defeating a dark wizard was something Dumbledore did during his summer holiday, which would suggest that he perhaps took a break from teaching around this time. Did Dumbledore take a sabbatical in response to Tom Riddle leaving Hogwarts- are Riddle and Grindelwald connected? We also of course don't know if anyone else filled in as Transformations teacher between circa 1943-1956, or whether Dumbledore returned at any point. However, it seems quite possible he was not McGonagall's immediate predecessor. In fact, I wonder if DD had a period as the DADA teacher. This still leaves us with a Minerva shaped gap. Someone mentioned earlier that MM and Riddle must have been contempories at Hogwarts, and that is an interesting thought. I seem to remember when I first lurked on these boards that there were some postings on ESE Minerva- even a bit of MM/Riddle shipping going on. Does this ring any bells? Of course it is possible Minerva left school and assisted DD in the Grindelwald conflict. Was she an auror? Or was she honing her animagus skills? Or perhaps she just stayed in Scotland and wrote terrible poetry. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 22:56:13 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:56:13 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius contact anyone? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102850 In PoA we are told that Sirius is captured and sent directly to Azkaban, without a trial. Yet it seems that Sirius had over 12 hours from he left Godrics Hollow, untill he is captured. Why on earth didn't he contact anyone. Maybe noone knew that he and Pettigrew swopped the secretkeeping, but it seems (in PoA) that Lupin would have believed him if he had told, and Dumbledore as well. How come he didn't get in touch with the Order at that time? That would have helped him catch pettigrew, and he would have Dumbledores support. This would also most certainly have prevented him from going to Azkaban. Yet dispite his many options, he chose to chase him on his own...? all if this caused me to rethink the way things happened in Godrics Hollow. Lupin stubbeles over the fact the harry hear both Lily and certainly James voice when is in contact with the demntors. Could there be some details about the death of Lily and James that we haven't been told yet, and is that why Sirius doesn't contact anyone? ________ Lene, who firmly believes that a cup of cocoa can solve anything.. From thekrenz at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 03:16:05 2004 From: thekrenz at yahoo.com (thekrenz) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:16:05 -0000 Subject: Significant differences between British and US (and other) versions? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102851 I have noticed when most posters are quoting cannon that they specify British or US version. How different is the wording from one version to the other? I'm sure slang terms and colloquialisms (gee, I hope I spelled that right!) would add subtle clues to the text, especially for the members of this list. How much would my perception of the WW be altered if I were able to read the British versions? All input is welcome and appreciated! Cyndi, who is a daily lurker :^D *Elf Note: The Harry Potter Lexicon has a listing of wording differences between the UK and US versions of the books. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/ Go into the Lexicon; on the menu page, there's a long box down the righthand side. The fourth item down in this box is "British / US Versions". From lklink at nycap.rr.com Fri Jun 25 19:53:53 2004 From: lklink at nycap.rr.com (Laura Swieton) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:53:53 -0400 Subject: Dudley vs. Harry birthdates In-Reply-To: <1088192085.11510.36280.m24@yahoogroups.com> References: <1088192085.11510.36280.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40DC82D1.3050005@nycap.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102852 Potioncat: >IIRC, it was determined that Dudley's birthday is several weeks >before Harry's. It seems May or June was the most likely date. >This was based on the snake episode (I think) in SS/PS. Harry >misses school while he is confined and when he is allowed out, the >Holidays have begun. > >It seems a bit confusing, because the little Dudley as described in >the first chapter of SS is far more mobile than the little Harry. The difference in mobility is not as big a problem as you may think: babies are notoriously variant in their achieving of physical milestones. Some babies learn to walk as early as 9 months, while others don't develop the skill until 14 months or later -- and are all considered "normal". Harry and Dudley could easily be only a month or two apart in age, but at different milestone levels (and the shock of his parents' dying could have delayed baby!Harry's motor skills). Snowfire From srobles at caribe.net Fri Jun 25 20:00:44 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:00:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102853 draco382 wrote: > I agree! I only wish Harry would verbalize a little and > maybe tell her how awesome she is! I'm sure it would mean the > world to her... You and me both! All shipping aside, I think that it wouldn't hurt Harry to actually verbalize more how great Hermione is, because if there's anyone out there who has risked more than anybody else for him, is Hermione. I'm pretty sure that might be the case in Book Six, judging by his reaction to her death scare at the DoM. Maybe after the initial shock of Sirius' death, it will sink in that he almost lost Hermione too and that might lead him to be more verbal in his appreciation. Peace, Anasazi From srobles at caribe.net Fri Jun 25 20:07:58 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:07:58 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: <12a.44c38bd9.2e0dc9fc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102854 AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum > wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? (Remember, > at the hospital, Alice gave him a gum wrapper and Neville's > Grandmother makes a comment something like, "Another one? Thank > you dear.") My reply: I think that Alice is trying to give Neville a message, and is a message that she has tried to deliver for a while, judging by this passage: "Well, we'd better get back,' sighed Mrs Longbottom, drawing on long green gloves. 'Very nice to have met you all. Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now.' But as they left, Harry was sure he saw Neville slip the sweet wrapper into his pocket." I think Alice, or what remains from her brain, is using the wrappers to warn Neville of an impending danger, or maybe trying to wake the memories that have been tampered in him (I'm a firm believer in the theory that Neville has had quite a few powerful memory charms performed on him). Whatever it is, I don't think we've seen the last of the gum wrappers. Anasazi From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 25 23:03:01 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:03:01 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Significant differences between British and US (and other) versions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40DD3BC5.14193.1D56BC@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102855 On 25 Jun 2004 at 3:16, thekrenz wrote: > I have noticed when most posters are quoting cannon that they specify > British or US version. How different is the wording from one version > to the other? I'm sure slang terms and colloquialisms (gee, I hope I > spelled that right!) would add subtle clues to the text, especially > for the members of this list. How much would my perception of the WW > be altered if I were able to read the British versions? All input is > welcome and appreciated! You should know that some of us specify which version the book is, not because of differences in the content (although these can occasionally be relevant) but because the page numbers are different between the two versions. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bethg2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 21:09:42 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:09:42 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102856 Bren: > Perhaps there are all sorts of charms/old magic protection which > create a barrier in front of the Gryffindor fireplace. You can > see someone's head *in* the fire since it's part of Floo network, > but once you try to get into the commonroom through fireplace, you > might not be able to. After all, we don't see Sirius trying to > hug Harry in fire or even attempting to make any physical > fatherly-contact. I've noticed, though, that we never see anyone else use the fireplaces at Hogwarts. Molly doesn't use it to yell at or visit the kids, Dumbledore sends Bill with the message for Arthur instead of of flooing, etc. I suspect that in general the fireplaces at Hogwarts, or at least the student area ones, don't work. However, Sirius is aware of some loophole from his marauder days that lets him slip by. Just a thought, Beth From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jun 25 23:08:27 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:08:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Legilimency and the Fidelius (was: Re: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and References: Message-ID: <023601c45b09$53bf3650$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102857 > This may be possible but the canon is strongly suggestive of the > contrary. > > Sirius: "...the night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, > make sure he was safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd > gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didnt feel right." > The Servant of Lord Voldemort, POA > > I construe this paragraph to strongly indicate that Peter willingly > donated the information to LV minus any direct act of persuasion. In > most cases of Pettigrew canon I fully interpret Peter as having been > persauded by the Lure of Reward to do LV's bidding notwithstanding > his fear of the Dark Lords power. > > Valky Oh, I think Pettigrew gave up the information willingly too! I was just replying to the post that asked if Legimency could simply allow Voldemort to see fidelius secrets inside secret keepers' minds or not. And I'm saying that regardless of how the Fidelius Charm works, I believe Legimency would allow Voldemort to know there's a secret kept from him, but not to "mind read" that secret. Alina. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Fri Jun 25 22:48:15 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:48:15 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102858 Anasazi joked: > But wouldn't you considered it a bit dissapointing if Harry and > Hermione ended up being brother and sister? Harry and Hermione can not be siblings. If they were then they couldn't be in the same year at Hogwarts. McMax From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 20:55:28 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:55:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Motives? (was Re: Lupin was the spy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102859 Snow wrote: > It is quite possible that Sirius assumed that James switched to > Peter as secret keeper but that Lily may have questioned Sirius' > loyalty, to herself and James, because of this last minute request. > Lily feeling suspicious of Sirius' behavior could have suggested > to James that they should rethink their position and entrust Lupin > instead so that Sirius wouldn't know whom the secret keeper actually > was in case Lily's suspicions were correct. Rebecca wrote: > (perhaps they were less suspicious of him that Sirius was--which > begs the question, why was Sirius more suspicious of Lupin than he > was of Peter?). Bren: > The thing about ESE!Lupin theory that bugs me is -- what does Lupin > gain by all this? I was under the impression that Voldemort & co. > hated *half*... EVERYTHING. True, VM might have been the only one > who knew of Lupin's true ally (so DEs' hatred of half-humans wouldn't > matter), but I can't imagine Voldemort welcoming Lupin with open > arms. Although, who would say NO to someone willing to spy one's > enemy (ie. the Order)? But I thought Lupin feared that his friends > would left him. He wanted to be liked, very badly. He couldn't have > his Prefect authority over them. Sure, he might not want all that > now, but 15 years ago I think he still did. So what made him decide > to betray his friends? The only friends who accepted him for who he > is, not what he is. Is Lupin that indecent? Although I've never really believed in the ESE Lupin idea, I could see how others could and so, on their behalf, I will post a wild thought. Lupin, more so than just about anyone else (possibly aside from DD) seems to be totally in control of his emotions. He seems to be far more calculating than others when it comes to making decisions concerning just about everything, including what may be (what he considers) in his best interests in the end. This can lead to good things in some - such as not raising to emotional bait - but for those who may be evil it can be a problem for the good guys. Let's says that Lupin is the betrayer, it would seem to me that he would definately be the one least likely to feel guilt and therefore easily capable to continue his double-crossing and go unnoticed. Concerning his teen self, maybe he calculated the odds of his success given his "condition" amongst the average wizard, versus his possible gains in working for VM? As far as VM taking his information? If he thought it was viable I have no doubt he would take it and use it to his dark advantage without question. This doesn't mean that he would like, or even accept, Lupin - in fact, it's more than likely that he'd kill of the ESE Lupin as soon as his usefulness is over. Which is another reason that, were Lupin doing all this evilness, it's a good thing that he doesn't allow his emotions to get in the way; becuase he can keep on double-crossing the Order without guilt. Tooks (who really doesn't believe in ESE!Lupin but likes to look at all points of view anyway) From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Fri Jun 25 23:24:08 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:24:08 -0000 Subject: Understanding OWLs : Note: OWLs without NEWTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102860 fauntine wrote: > I think it is VERY possible Harry got an Outstanding in his Potions OWL - along with several unsuspecting candidates. Reason being is that Snape is EXTREMELY hard on his students. So, I am guessing that they are above average for their level as compared to other Wizarding Schools. Even if they don't get Outstandings in his class by Snape's own grading standard, there is a possibility they could get an Outstanding on their OWL. >>> Harry's problems with Potions don't come from the actual work but from Snape's treatment of him. In OotP, Harry is surprised that the test was not as hard as he feared and even Neville was more relaxed than in class. So it's possible that Harry got an 'Outstanding' and even if he doesn't he will be in Snape's N.E.W.T class so JKR can keep that interaction. But like at the end of OotP I don't think Harry is going to take the harassment lying down anymore. McMax From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 23:27:07 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:27:07 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" wrote: > AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: > > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum > > wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? (snip> > > My reply: > > I think that Alice is trying to give Neville a message, and is a > message that she has tried to deliver for a while, judging by this > passage: > snip> > Whatever it is, I don't think we've seen the last of the gum wrappers. > > Anasazi Also remeber with Droobles Best Blowing Gum it is supposed to produce blue bubbles that last for days......so, where are the bubbles? Something is up with the gum is what I suspect and may be what is keeping the Longbottoms from recovering. There were several posts about this sometime ago. I dont remember when exactly. Fran From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 23:05:55 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:05:55 -0000 Subject: Dudley, the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102862 Phil: > Dudley is considerably older than Harry: he's mobile at the > very least. > I read this as indicating that Dudley is at least crawling and > maybe a toddler. > > On the other hand he cannot be that much older than Harry since > they are both transferring from primary to secondary school at > the same time, so he must be within the same year group. Gina: > Phil, I did not mean to imply the same year. Dudley probably > is older than Harry, but did the prophecy specify a YEAR of birth? > I thought it only said the end of July and Dudley's birthday is > obviously the end of July b/c Harry's is a very few days later. halli: Hey, I would like to point out that Dudley is probably only one or two months older than Harry, because supposing Harry is a year old, Dudley and Harry would be mobile at that time so yeah...also, Dudley's birthday is...like one of you said, I'm not sure who...before school ends, presumably May, June or July. From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 23:24:28 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:24:28 -0000 Subject: Another oar for the Great SHIP Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102863 Anasazi joked: > > But wouldn't you considered it a bit dissapointing if Harry and > > Hermione ended up being brother and sister? McMax: > Harry and Hermione can not be siblings. If they were then they > couldn't be in the same year at Hogwarts. Well technically they could be half-siblings you know. Same father, different mother, that would explain why they look alike, and no one would know if the mothers decided not to say anything. Of course Harry looks way too much like his father to have it turn out that they aren't related...I don't think Harry and Hermione are siblings, just wanted to point out the possibility. -halli From lziner at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 23:48:25 2004 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:48:25 -0000 Subject: Lupin was the spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Huge snip > Also to be considered, when Harry and the kids' expelliarmus Snape in > the SS, Black's reply was "You shouldn't have done that You should > have left him to me " GOF pg. 361 Lupin's reply to that same > situation was "Thank you Harry" > Shouldn't it have been the other way around, Black saying thank you > and Lupin saying you shouldn't have done that? I"m confused> Black isn't in SS and Lupin isn't in GOF. Are you referring to the POA shrieking shack scene? Otherwise a very interesting post. However, no one will convince me Lupin is ESE. I do enjoy the theories - keep them up! Lz From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 00:10:31 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:10:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin was the spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" > wrote: > > Huge snip > Also to be considered, when Harry and the kids' > expelliarmus Snape in > > the SS, Black's reply was "You shouldn't have done that You > should > > have left him to me " GOF pg. 361 Lupin's reply to that same > > situation was "Thank you Harry" > > Shouldn't it have been the other way around, Black saying thank > you > > and Lupin saying you shouldn't have done that? > > > > I"m confused> Black isn't in SS and Lupin isn't in GOF. Are you > referring to the POA shrieking shack scene? Otherwise a very > interesting post. However, no one will convince me Lupin is ESE. I > do enjoy the theories - keep them up! > > Lz Snow replies: Thank you for pointing that out. Big oops. It was the Shrieking shack scene I was referring to and of course that would have been POA. Thanks again for the correction. From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jun 26 00:20:18 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:20:18 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102866 Bren, wrote: >> They are both: - Half-blood - Parents-less - abused/ not loved - of similar appearances, though Tom is much taller - MARKED ONES who both had "the weight of the WW on his shoulders" *Tom: Heir of Slytherin, with the oh-so-great mission to "purge those who are not worthy of studying Magic" *Harry: Voldemort's Equal, who must be either the murderer or the victim of VM My point is that their teenage selves are almost identical, and if Harry is not careful then he might become something like Voldemort himself. I'm sure if the book was written from Tom Riddle's POV, with all of his intimate thoughts & pain, with him interacting with *his* friends who share the same ideology, then we might feel the same compassion towards Tom that we do with Harry.<< HunterGreen: But that list of things doesn't include *personality*, which is the most important thing to consider. By age 16, Tom was already letting the basilisk out and framing Hagrid, and he already had his Voldemort name worked out. Don't forget the *reason* Harry went to the MoM in the first place, and that was to save someone. As far as personality goes, Harry and Voldemort are quite a bit different--Voldemort is arrogant, while Harry typically has bouts of self-doubt; Voldemort is charismatic and an achiever in school, while Harry is rather limited to his three friends (although he has a few acquaintances, he's not close with any of them) and despite being good in quidditch, he's only so-so in school. As for Harry's "hormones" facilitating his attitude in OotP, I think that's a rather superficial assesment. If you look closely at his emotions, and keep in mind the *horrible* thing that happened to him at the end of GoF, then its quite possible he's suffering from post- traumatic stress. And since he's been left to stew in those emotions, with no one really trying to help him (not in the way he needs help), then his actions are perfectly reasonable. I find the number of people who judge Harry baffling, he has ever right to be that angry after the number of things he's been through and the way he's been treated, and it has nothing at all to do with his age. >>But then this compassion shouldn't justify Tom Riddle, right? He turned to Dark Arts for outlet, who's to say HArry wouldn't? He already used Crucio! and he even learned *how* to do it properly.<< Voldemort *enjoys* killing/torturing people-that is ANY person, whether they wronged him or got in his way or anything, as far as the "crucio!" attempt goes, Harry used it against the person who had just killed his godfather and who was talking to him in a babytalk voice. Its quite interesting that he DOESN'T try to kill her, just hurt her. If Harry shows an interest in learning Crucio or going around doing it to animals or other, less important enemies, then I can see a reason to worry. >>As for Harry having the great heart and Tom Riddle didn't -- I wonder if Harry didn't know his parents AT ALL and his mom didn't die to save him, he would have been even more similar to Tom Riddle. What do you think?<< Well, if he still was raised by the Dursleys, I don't think he would have been much different. He grew up knowing NOTHING about his parents and thinking their death was an accident, and in his first year he still goes off to save Hermione from the troll and is still determined to save the stone from Voldemort. I think the difference in his personality would have been if he DID know his parents and was raised by them-then he might have had a personality more like James (*might* have, because he'd still have Lily as a mother), and James didn't turn out *evil*. From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 00:23:23 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:23:23 -0000 Subject: Figg's cats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102867 I wonder if anyone's noticed how smart Arabella Figg's cats are? She put Mr Tibbles on the case to watch Mungdungus and make sure he didn't take off, then reported to her when he did. Irrelevant? I think not! In PoA, Sirus talks about how Crookshanks is one of the more intelligent of its kind...not quoting here, sorry... I think that maybe Crookshanks was sent to watch over Harry, or all three of them (Ron and Hermione too) by Dumbledore, borrowed from Mrs Figg. Seeing as how Crookshanks didn't appear until 3rd year, when it was obvious how close they were, and how Crookshanks always tried to attack Scabbers, the one who would turn out to be against Harry and everybody. Just a thought. The only part that doesn't make sense is how the woman Hermione bought Crookshanks from said he'd been around for ages...although that could just be because she (or possibly even Crookshanks) knew he was supposed to go to someone close to Harry, to keep watch over him... Sorry if it's a stupid theory, or if it's already been discussed, but I had to try it out... -halli From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 00:50:41 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:50:41 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102868 Nadine "catimini15" wrote: > Maybe it is Croker who visited Bode... But if the kids > recognized Bode lying in his bed as the bloke whom they > saw at the World Quidditch Cup a few months before, they > would have recognize Croker as well standing near St. > Mungo's welcome desk. NOT nessesarily, they could have recongnised Bode, only because of Harry's encounter in the elevator with him, or have heard his name and remembered that. They aren't going to remember people they saw months ago without a memory trigger. If I saw someone that a friend had pointed out to me months ago, I probably wouldn't recongnise them from that last encounter, unless some one mentioned their name or something. --halli From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 01:28:49 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:28:49 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102869 Huntergreen wrote: If you look closely at his emotions, and keep in mind the *horrible* thing that happened to him at the end of GoF, then its quite possible he's suffering from post-traumatic stress. And since he's been left to stew in those emotions,with no one really trying to help him (not in the way he needs help), then his actions are perfectly reasonable. I find the number of people who judge Harry baffling, he has ever right to be that angry after the number of things he's been through and the way he's been treated, and it has nothing at all to do with his age. vmonte responds: I agree with you. Harry has had a lot to deal with, and he probably is suffering from post-traumatic stress. And through it all he still feels compassion for others. vivian From joj at rochester.rr.com Sat Jun 26 02:19:43 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:19:43 -0000 Subject: book six title Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102870 Mugglenet is reporting the someone got throught the door on JKR's website and has the title of book six and that it's very long. Could be crap, but it's exciting anyways. (They have a video of the door opening. It looks so real) Joj From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 02:34:59 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:34:59 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" wrote: > Mugglenet is reporting the someone got throught the door on JKR's > website and has the title of book six and that it's very long. Could > be crap, but it's exciting anyways. (They have a video of the door > opening. It looks so real) I was under the impression that the door contained nothing, but a few phrases from cicero. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 02:42:01 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:42:01 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Motives? (was Re: Lupin was the spy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102872 Bren: That really puzzles me too, even after all the ESE!Lupin talk. The thing about ESE!Lupin theory that bugs me is -- what does Lupin gain by all this? I was under the impression that Voldemort & co. hated *half*... EVERYTHING. True, VM might have been the only one who knew of Lupin's true ally (so DEs' hatred of half-humans wouldn't matter), but I can't imagine Voldemort welcoming Lupin with open arms. Although, who would say NO to someone willing to spy one's enemy (ie. the Order)? But I thought Lupin feared that his friends would left him. He wanted to be liked, very badly. He couldn't have his Prefect authority over them. Sure, he might not want all that now, but 15 years ago I think he still did. So what made him decide to betray his friends? The only friends who accepted him for who he is, not what he is. >snip< Snow: Remember that at some time before the Potters deaths, Sirius feels that Lupin is the spy. Sirius was suggesting to James to change to Peter as secret keeper and not Lupin for this reason. His friends possibly shunned Lupin because they did suspect him as the spy. If you notice in the picture of the original Order Lupin was the only one not standing by James, Sirius and Peter. Lupin in the picture is actually two rows back. Also I don't recall Lupin being in the Potters wedding picture, although he may have been and it wasn't stated. If Lupin has none of his old friends to support him as they had in the past and feels that they suspect him of being the traitor, he may have turned traitor. At the last minute, after his betrayal, Lupin felt the need to confess what he had just done to the Potters and warn them of his betrayal. But Lupin was too late. He walks into the Potters home to find James already dead and Lily being confronted by Voldy and tells Lily to run. Voldy may have, for many devious reasons, spared Lupin's life. P.S. Why didn't the Potters choose DD as the secret keeper? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 02:45:03 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:45:03 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102873 Huntergreen: huge snip. > As for Harry's "hormones" facilitating his attitude in OotP, I think > that's a rather superficial assesment. If you look closely at his > emotions, and keep in mind the *horrible* thing that happened to him > at the end of GoF, then its quite possible he's suffering from post- > traumatic stress. And since he's been left to stew in those emotions, > with no one really trying to help him (not in the way he needs help), > then his actions are perfectly reasonable. I find the number of > people who judge Harry baffling, he has ever right to be that angry > after the number of things he's been through and the way he's been > treated, and it has nothing at all to do with his age. snip Alla: I am always for cutting Harry some slack (Surprise.:o)) Besides agreeing with you that he ahd a right to be angry, I am happy that he finally let those negative emotions out. It will help him grew emotionally and will probably heal his wounds in the long run. Come to think of it, after Cedric's death, Harry badly needed to talk to someone over the summer, to be reassurred over and over again that it was not his fault. No, I am not expecting Dumbledore to sent Mind Healer from St. Mungo to Privet Drive :), although it would have been nice, but if he cared about Harry as much as he claimed could he I don't know at least ask Molly to come over and talk to Harry. Unhealed trauma of Cedric's death alone would have been enough to send a child over the edge and Harry saw so much more pain. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 02:54:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:54:20 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <001801c45ae2$0bdc1d20$d84a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: snip. > > 2. Conversely, does the fact that all Muggleborn children go to an elite > school of Witchcraft and Wizardry give them a higher relative profile in the > WW by virtue of the fact that they are more likely to end up in visible > positions as adults? Could this also feed anti-Muggleborn prejudice? > > But JKR alone knows all > Oooo, interesting, but I got a little confused. Could you clarify, please? Are you in essense saying that magical quill detects all muggle-borns magical children and ALL of them get Hogwarts letters, but it does not relate to Purebloods, for whom some selection criteria exists? So, basically it is harder for pureblood child to get into Hogwarts than for muggle-born? Did I understand you correctly? Alla From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 03:09:48 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:09:48 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius contact anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > In PoA we are told that Sirius is captured and sent directly to > Azkaban, without a trial. Yet it seems that Sirius had over 12 hours > from he left Godrics Hollow, untill he is captured. Why on earth > didn't he contact anyone. Maybe noone knew that he and Pettigrew > swopped the secretkeeping, but it seems (in PoA) that Lupin would > have believed him if he had told, and Dumbledore as well. How come he > didn't get in touch with the Order at that time? That would have > helped him catch pettigrew, and he would have Dumbledores support. > This would also most certainly have prevented him from going to > Azkaban. Yet dispite his many options, he chose to chase him on his > own...? Meri: Well, and I am a Sirius defender saying this, old Snuffles isn't known for rational behavior in difficult situations. Sirius, realizing there must be a traitor somewhere in the Maurauder's midst, had just come upon the dead bodies of his best friend/brother and his wife and was told that he couldn't have custody of Harry, his last link to them. Rational thought is not an option here. Nor it seems is contacting DD. Even Hagrid, who was trusted with carrying Harry, didn't see the man til twenty four hours later. all if this caused me to rethink the way things happened in > Godrics Hollow. Lupin stubbeles over the fact the harry hear both > Lily and certainly James voice when is in contact with the demntors. > Could there be some details about the death of Lily and James that we > haven't been told yet, and is that why Sirius doesn't contact anyone? Meri: Well, I would say that we do not know even close to the whole story of that fateful Halloween night. Though I am sure that Lily and James are both legitimately dead. > Lene, who firmly believes that a cup of cocoa can solve anything... Meri From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Sat Jun 26 03:13:10 2004 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:13:10 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor (metamorphamagus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102876 Wow...I like the metamorphamagus idea a lot...Perhaps not in this particular instance, but for a future plot line by JKR. IIRC, Tonks said it was somewhat genetic. We know that Sirius and Tonks are related (OoP). We know Sirius' family is full of dark wizards. It stands to reason that there would be some DE who have this same trait...possibly family members... Heidi R. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 03:17:02 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:17:02 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102877 > > Mugglenet is reporting the someone got throught the door on JKR's > > website and has the title of book six and that it's very long. > Could > > be crap, but it's exciting anyways. (They have a video of the door > > opening. It looks so real) > > I was under the impression that the door contained nothing, but a few > phrases from cicero. Actually the stuff behind the door is: Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in the 1960s with the release of Letraset sheets containing Lorem Ipsum passages, and more recently with desktop publishing software like Aldus PageMaker including versions of Lorem Ipsum. Here is the exact wording from behind the door...took me forever to copy it over :P On the left hand page it reads this: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer dehiscing elit, sed diem nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut lacreet dolore magna aliguam erat volutpat. Ut wisis enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tution ullam corper suscipit lobortis nisi ut aliquip ex ea consectetuer dehiscing elit, sed diem nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut lacreet dolore magna aliguam On the right hand page it has this: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer dehiscing elit, sed diem nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut lacreet dolore magna aliguam erat volutpat. Ut wisis enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tution ullam corper suscipit lobortis nisi ut aliquip ex ea Jacqui From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jun 26 03:18:03 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:18:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book six title References: Message-ID: <02a701c45b2c$31c550c0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 102878 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" > wrote: > > Mugglenet is reporting the someone got throught the door on JKR's > > website and has the title of book six and that it's very long. > Could > > be crap, but it's exciting anyways. (They have a video of the door > > opening. It looks so real) > > I was under the impression that the door contained nothing, but a few > phrases from cicero. > Actually, the door contained standard placeholder text (it's not latin, it's just gibberish). There is nothing there as of yet. Alina. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 26 03:30:44 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:30:44 -0400 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102880 This is what happens when you're hungry, don't know what you want to eat, have no good chocolate or pumpkin pasties in the house...the brain starts to do funny stuff. :-) We don't really know anything about the Evans clan. Is it possible there were other wizards but things were kept quiet? Could it be possible that Petunia really is a squib? And could this, perhaps, lead to much of her resentment of her magical sister? Think about it...her words were about how proud her parents were to have a witch in the family. Perhaps someone from either her mother's side or her father's had been a wizard. The WW was somewhat known about by Petunia's parents which would lead them to being proud that Lilly was a witch. Meanwhile, here's Petunia, either muggle or (gasp) squib; she, so far, has revealed some knowledge of the WW and we all think she's got more secrets up her sleeve. If this has been beaten before, sorry, folks. Just some posers for your enjoyment. :-) Now, it's time to raid the fridge and construct something--uh--edible???? Cheers, Lee, The Hungry! :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From draco382 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 04:35:57 2004 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 04:35:57 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: <20040626032645.83650.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102883 > what does everyone know about Pillar of Storg?? > > moonmyyst I couldn't resist: The important words are in all caps... What is friendship? What is love? Does God exist? ============ There is a foundational discussion of friendship in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.In Symposium Plato presents the nature of love through the speeches of his interlocutors, especially Aristophanes' speech on one's 'seeking one's other half' and Diotima's speech at the end about Porus and Penia. Love is not just eros, but agape, philos and STORGE as well ? see C. S Lewis' The Four Lovesfor an overview and Pavel Florovsky, The PILLAR and Ground of Truthfor a philosophical account. Does God exist? Not like a existent among existents. The traditional theological account definitive for orthodox thinking on this question is in The Divine Namesby Pseudo- Dionysius (in print in the Classics of Western Spirituality series by Paulist Press). One of the most famous accounts of this question is that of Thomas Aquinas; see the Oxford World Classics edition of Aquinas's Selected Philosophical Writings,passage 20. Anselm's so-called ontological argument for the existence of God, to be found in his Proslogionhas been criticised by all major philosophers from Descartes onward. All these critiques of Anselm can be found in the Introduction to the Open Court Classics edition of Anselm's Basic Writings. what do you guys think....? ~draco382 From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jun 26 06:43:05 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:43:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley the prophecy Message-ID: <86.f46774d.2e0e74f9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102885 In a message dated 06/25/2004 3:14:40 PM Central Daylight Time, chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com writes: > Depending on how > old Harry was when the Dursley's got him ( I tend to think he was > around one yr old), I think Dudley was more than able to poke him > and pinch him, hehe. Just some thoughts.. > > Alora > Harry would have been 15 months. he was born July 31 and orphaned Oct 31 of the following year. Dudley would have been 16-17 months old 9 (I lean towards 16 months) and he would have been very able to pinch and poke (and bite) Harry. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 07:17:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:17:29 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasley's are Weasley's In-Reply-To: <11a.33d328e2.2e09a281@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102886 Melissa wrote: > I do think that Fabian and Gideon were probably Molly's brothers. I also think that Fred and George were born to Molly & Arthur at roughly the same time that Fabian and Gideon were killed, hence the F & G beginning names in their honor. Carol: I like this idea a lot. In fact, I very much doubt that the F&G in both sets of names is a coincidence, whether or not Fabian and Gideon were twins. BTW, has anyone noted (and no, I don't want to search the whole site, but I did check the recent pages related to these names) that Gideon was an Old Testament hero who defeated the Midianites and Fabian was a third-century Christian bishop and martyr? I don't think the names are accidental. In fact, they may tell us all we'll ever know about the Prewett brothers. Carol From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 08:08:38 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:08:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102887 Gina wrote : > Sorry, but if you are saying Hermione doesn't need to be with Harry > because he is not nice to her and doesn't let her have an opinion - > you have just contradicted yourself! Hermione does the SAME THING to > Ron! Every time he has an idea she either blows it off completely or > tells him in one way or another how dumb he sounds where on the > other hand she takes everything Harry says into consideration. So if > what you say is true R/Hr can NEVER be together because Hermione > does not respect his ideas or intelligence at all and is not very > nice in expressing it. Del replies : Good point Gina ! And thanks for making it, it really helped me ! You see, I used to be a deeply convicted R/H SHIPper, I was so sure they were bound to be together. And then as the books advanced, I felt less and less the same way. I never turned to a H/Hr SHIP (could still happen though, it all depends on how the kids mature), but something bothered me in the relationship between Ron and Hermione. I couldn't really pinpoint, though. I guessed it must be the fights, but it didn't feel like it. And now that you've said it, I have to laugh at myself for not seeing what was so obvious : I don't like the way Hermione treats Ron any more than I like the way Harry treats Hermione ! *Someone* has to change, whoever. And if it is Harry, then I'll be more than happy to become a H/Hr shipper ! Del From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Jun 26 08:54:24 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:54:24 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Book Six Title Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102888 Greetings from Hexquarters! May we just take this opportunity to remind everyone that the place to discuss features of JKR's website itself (as opposed to any potential canon in might contain) is OTChatter, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Discussion of storge as a theme in the HP novels and its possible future development in the forthcoming volumes remains welcome here. Many thanks, The List Elves From weildman at comcast.net Sat Jun 26 03:12:36 2004 From: weildman at comcast.net (weildman) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:12:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: <12a.44c38bd9.2e0dc9fc@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c45b2b$6e886390$c733ae43@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 102889 Cheryl H. Wrote: Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum wrappers.? I believe that she attributes her ability to quit smoking on chewing gum and playing minesweeper which would logically lead to the inclusion of gum wrapper images in both instances. I guess its art imitating life. Trevor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 03:29:46 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:29:46 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102890 > Valky wrote: > > 4. God forbid! Harry kills Neville (Imperio threaders take note!) and Voldemort can never be defeated. > Kneasy: > I don't think we can count the climax in PS/SS as an Imperius > moment, for while Harry obeys some of Quirrell!Mort's instructions > he doesn't obey others. Besides, he's not described as having that > floating sense of happiness and detachment < snip> then. Valky replies: Regarding your digression Kneasy I haven't the faintest clue how to answer you. Except to say that When? really seems to come into play when we take into account the Mystery of the Third Imperio, a post I'm also familiar with and glad you brought it up. Just to clarify first my 4th scenario and why I had suggested Imperio context may be applicable, (NB my original post did invite the reader to add context of their own) I hint at Imperio as a context for this scenario as I imagine perhaps if LV was to somehow find out the last part of the prophecy and read into it as I have that the term *other* applies to Neville that he would have his perfect weapon against his would be defeat in the boys. In more detail supposing the paragraph before had come to pass and LV was aware that he or Harry must die by Nevilles hand, he could devise a plan where he might Imperio one or both of the boys to duel each other to the death. And just supposing that the term *other exclusively pertains to Neville if Harry were to by some stroke of misfortune slay Neville. Then the neither can live while the *other/Neville survives would be fulfilled. And the surviving of the either would be freed of the prophetic doom. Is that clear? 8-0 .........not really? Valky whose lost herself in the semantics of the prophecy again ... sigh From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 03:35:32 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:35:32 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102891 > > AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: > > > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum > > > wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? > (snip> > Fran wrote: > Also remeber with Droobles Best Blowing Gum it is supposed to > produce blue bubbles that last for days......so, where are the > bubbles? > Something is up with the gum is what I suspect and may be what is > keeping the Longbottoms from recovering. Tho I am not keen on the poisoning theory Fran, you make an excellent point when you say "Where are the Bubbles?" Hell Yeah ? Where are they ? For what could one use blue bubbles that last for days if not for entertainment. Perhaps there is a third party involved in this scenario someone in the hospital laying on a bed surrounded by Droobles Best Blown Bubbles. Maybe it's a hint to go talk to a Droobles addict somewhere in St Mungos. Valky From osrevad at gmail.com Sat Jun 26 03:48:03 2004 From: osrevad at gmail.com (osrevad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:48:03 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: <20040626032645.83650.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102892 > Alina wrote: > > what does everyone know about Pillar of Storg?? It's pronounced Store-gee (with a HARD g) and it is Greek for 'parental love', which is admittedly a strong theme in the HP series. Discuss. "osrevad" From strawberry at jamm.com Sat Jun 26 07:14:23 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:14:23 -0700 Subject: The Behaviour of Bartemius Crouch, Jr. Message-ID: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024419@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102893 Barty Crouch (Jr) was convicted and sent to Azkaban for being one of four Death Eaters responsible for the capture and torture of Neville's parents through the use of the Cruciatus curse. In light of that fact, I found myself becoming rather intrigued, while recently re-reading GoF, by the following scenes from chapter 14 "The Unforgivable Curses": 'There's one - the Cruciatus curse,' said Neville, in a small but distinct voice. Moody was looking very intently at Neville, this time with both eyes. 'Your name's Longbottom?' he said, his magical eye swooping down to check the register again. [...] Moody raised his wand again, pointed it at the spider, and muttered: 'Cruicio!' At once, the spider's legs bent in upon its body; it rolled over and began to twitch horribly, rocking from side to side. No sound came from it, but Harry was sure that if it could have given voice, it would have been screaming. Moody did not remove his wand, and the spider started to shudder and jerk more violently - 'Stop it!' Hermione said shrilly. Harry looked around at her. She was looking, not at the spider, but at Neville, and Harry, following her gaze, saw that Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in front of him, his knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified. [...] Neville was standing alone, halfway up the passage, staring at the stone wall opposite him with the same horrified, wide eyed look he had worn when Moody had demonstrated the Cruciatus curse. [...] But an odd clunking noise sounded behind them, and they turned to see Professor Moody limping towards them. All four of them fell silent, watching him apprehensively, but when he spoke, it was in a much lower and gentler growl than they had yet heard. 'It's all right, sonny,' he said to Neville. 'Why don't you come up to my office? Come on ... we can have a cup of tea ...' (pp 189-90,193, Canadian/British Edition) We do know, from the end of the book, that Moody!Crouch used this particular opportunity to give Neville a book on Mediterranean Water Plants in the hopes that Harry would eventually learn about the properties of Gillyweed from Neville. Still, it got me wondering what Moody!Crouch was really thinking, as he watched the effects his demonstration of the Cruciatus curse - the very curse he was convicted for using - had on the only son of the man and woman on whom he had used it. Later in the chapter, when Harry discovers Neville reading the book he got, his eyes are red, suggesting that he'd probably been crying in the professor's office. I bet, while being all compassionate and caring on the outside, Moody!Crouch was evilly and snidely snickering at Neville's pathetic display of weakness on the inside. I also noticed that Moody!Crouch also asked Harry if he was doing okay - theoretically because of the Avada Kedavra curse demonstration. Harry responds by saying he's fine 'almost defiantly', although we know that he isn't 100% fine, just more fine than Neville. I suppose that Moody!Crouch was hoping to get both of them in his office at the same time, and then not only would Neville have the book on Mediterranean Water Plants, Harry would also know about it. Ah, the best laid plans of mice and deranged madmen. ;-) Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield Software User Experience Professional Designing to Requirements and walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. ---------- E-Mail & WinIM: [strawberry @ jamm.com] Blog: [http://strawberryjamm.blogspot.com] -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mpvillas at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 26 08:42:26 2004 From: mpvillas at yahoo.co.uk (wisteria053) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:42:26 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102894 ~Maitresse wrote: Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she is only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s from that? Betsy: Hi. I guess that some classes counts for two O.W.L.S. because they include a theory and a practical exams. SNIP Assuming we are talking about the British equivalent of O levels or GCSEs, I do know my husband has 13 O levels (I'm from the States) and I'm sure my son - still asleep so can't check - is taking one subject described as a "double" and worth two GSCEs. So maybe the harder courses like "Double Potions" are worth two OWLs. "wisteria053" From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 11:14:59 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:14:59 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: <000001c45b2b$6e886390$c733ae43@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102895 Cheryl H. Wrote: > > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum wrappers.? > Trevor: > > I believe that she attributes her ability to quit smoking on chewing gum and > playing minesweeper which would logically lead to the inclusion of gum > wrapper images in both instances. I guess its art imitating life. Ok now I am entirely too intrigued! What if JKR's comments in the real world about gum relate to the relevance of it in the book? Gringotts is like a mine yeah? hmmmmmm............. curiouser and curiouser....... oops...and down I go into the Rabbit Hole... Valky From strawberry at jamm.com Sat Jun 26 05:37:26 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:37:26 -0700 Subject: Tickling the Ivory Keys Message-ID: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024418@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102896 I was just visiting the "marauder's map" section of the official Warner Brother's web site for Harry Potter, as it has a few "hidden" links scattered about it that bring up "tours" of a few sets from the PoA movie. (Here's the URL if you want to try finding them yourself: http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/main/homepage/home.html?section=mapHome. You can 'rotate' the views 360 degrees and there are hot spots that you can click on to view the scene from different view points) One of the scenes is the interior of the "Shrieking Shack" and I happened to notice that, among the few broken and scattered furnishings is a relatively untouched baby grand piano. It got me wondering how much we actually know about Lupin. I mean, why is there a piano there at all? Does Lupin play perhaps? If so, is that important in any way (maybe one of those "clues" JKR mentioned?) Also, how come it is still in relatively good condition? We are led to believe that a werewolf looses much of his "sense of self" during the time he is changed, even if Lupin does (or did) play the piano, why wouldn't the piano be just as damaged as all the other furniture in the house? -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield Software User Experience Professional Designing to Requirements and walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. ---------- E-Mail & WinIM: [strawberry @ jamm.com] Blog: [http://strawberryjamm.blogspot.com] -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AntaresCheryl at aol.com Sat Jun 26 05:39:57 2004 From: AntaresCheryl at aol.com (AntaresCheryl at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:39:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Sirius contact anyone? Message-ID: <5a.2d31e218.2e0e662d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102897 Lene wrote: >Lupin stubbeles over the fact the Harry hears both Lily and certainly James voice when is in contact with the demntors. Could there be some details about the death of Lily and James that we haven't been told yet, and is that why Sirius doesn't contact anyone? > Remember, Harry says that he heard his mother and "a strange voice." We still don't know who that voice belonged to . Cheryl H From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Jun 26 11:36:51 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:36:51 -0000 Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: <20040626032645.83650.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > Alina wrote: > From Mugglenet: > 1st July 2004 > > Erm it is perhaps time for me to reveal > the title of Book 6! I am nearing completion of the > first draft and have definitely decided upon a > title. I had numerous possibilities in mind, but > as I wrote, I realized that only one did the book > justice. > > The more clever Potter fans may recognize that > the title relates directly to both 'Order of the > Phoenix' and 'Chamber of Secrets.' I will be > highly amused if one of you can guess exactly > what's going on! > > Alas, the time has come! Here is the reward for > you lot that so diligently figured out all the puzzles > on the site. If you scroll down to the bottom of > this page, I will reveal to you the title of Book 6! > > The title of Book 6 is: > Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storg? Carolyn: *If* this rumour doesn't turn out to be a quite exceptionally clever spoof, this link is thought-provoking: http://www.montreat.edu/dking/lewis/TILWEHAV.htm Here, CS Lewis describes his motivations in writing a novel called 'Till We Have Faces' First he prefaces his comments with the interesting and highly relevant remark: "An author doesn't necessarily understand the meaning of his own story better than anyone else, so I give my account of Till we have Faces simply for what it is worth." Then he says about how he came to write it: "All came into focus: and had drawn into it many sympathies that had found no vehicle in earlier books--for the ugly woman, the barbarous idolator, the humane sceptic, and (above all) the friends and lovers of those who have a vocation or even a faith." And on the theme of storge: "The role of storge love; what is the hold that affectionate love has on humans? At what point does this kind of love cease to be love and becomes instead a demon?" If this rumour has any truth in it at all, it would seem that Book 6 could have an exceptionally ambivalent theme about family love, and complicate our responses to 'bad guys' like Snape and Umbridge even further, although I suppose we are to assume agape will overcome all in the end. Personally, I am somewhat sceptical just because it is such a clumsy, and frankly outrageously intellectual title. If she goes for it, that would be amazing. She really will be setting some tough hurdles for kids - yippee. Carolyn From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat Jun 26 11:44:22 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:44:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ADA9752-C766-11D8-A748-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 102899 Luckie: > > I'm not denying Mr. and Mrs. Granger are probably hurt by the loss > of their daughter... It isn't until befire her fifth year she spends > most of her > breaks with her friends. > > ...Because Ron grew up in the Wizarding World, I'm sure Mr. and Mrs. > Granger understand HE cannot come and stay with them. But more > importantly, breaking away from your parents is a part of growing > up, especially when you go to boarding school... I'm sure that Hermione must seem strange to he parents. Scary strange even. It probably started even before she went of to school. Can you imagine what must have happened if she had done something akin to George's turning a teddy bear into a spider when she was a kid? I expect her parents feel a bit of guilty relief that others who understand their daughter are nurturing her. Ironically, I live in Miami with many Hispanics. It is not uncommon for hispanic (Cuban) mothers fight against their daughters (or sons) leaving home to goof to college at eighteen. I've heard mothers argue that their daughter is too young, too immature, etc. to face the dangers of college life. Formal chaperoning is not thought of as a quaint custom from the ancient past, rather it is a concept that needs to be adapted to fit modern day life. Not every hispanic of course, for there is a Catholic boarding school tradition too. I can't count how many times I've heard that Americans (moi) are cold, since they force children (not me personally) out or the home at eighteen, sending them away to college, etc. Can you imagine if they had to make choice about an english style boarding school for an eleven year old? I love it. It makes me seem almost warm hearted for a change, and I kind of like that. Barbara (Ivogun), who is told that she is a cold American [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 11:46:51 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:46:51 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > > AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum > > > > wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? > > (snip> > > > Fran wrote: > > Also remeber with Droobles Best Blowing Gum it is supposed to > > produce blue bubbles that last for days......so, where are the > > bubbles? > > Something is up with the gum is what I suspect and may be what is > > keeping the Longbottoms from recovering. > > > Tho I am not keen on the poisoning theory Fran, you make an excellent > point when you say "Where are the Bubbles?" > Hell Yeah ? Where are they ? Valky The absence of the bubbles, imho, indicates that the gum has been tampered with. Someone posted recently that Gran was possibly keeping Neville from living up to his full potential by lowering his self confidence. It would be very painful for her to lose another family member. Could she possibly be the one responsible for keeping Frank and Alice from reovering in an attempt to keep them alive? Another theory that has been brought up is that there is a message in all the gum wrappers.... Fran From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sat Jun 26 11:52:28 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:52:28 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Happy news from the List Elves... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102901 Greetings from Hexquarters! We would like to introduce some new additions to our team: Amanar - Drivey Elf Darkthirty - Cranky Elf Dhyana - Nani Elf Dumbledad - Kroppy Elf Iggy McSnurd - Iggy Elf Oryomai - Feathery Elf Rynne - Rynny Elf Tiggersong - Knitty Elf They have all agreed to do long hours for no pay, with no time off, no holidays, and an old tea towel as uniform. ::ahem:: We mean that they've agreed to become new list elves. Please make our elves in training welcome! -- The happily larger Admin Team From Snarryfan at aol.com Sat Jun 26 11:47:33 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:47:33 -0000 Subject: Mind Healer (was Re: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102902 > Alla: > > > > No, I am not expecting Dumbledore to sent Mind Healer from St. Mungo > to Privet Drive :), although it would have been nice, but if he cared > about Harry as much as he claimed could he I don't know at least ask > Molly to come over and talk to Harry. > > Unhealed trauma of Cedric's death alone would have been enough to > send a child over the edge and Harry saw so much more pain. It what I found frightning, Alla. I don't think that the 'Mind Healer' exist in the WW. The best example we know is Harry, because we see his life. Cho is still upset with Cedric's death 6 months after. Looks like her only help was her friends and maybe her parents. Ginny just was abduct in a Chamber with a monster of 1000 years-old and so and the cure is a cup of chocolat, and...nothing. Hagrid spent many *months* in Azkaban, and...nothing. I hesitate to say the next example. I'm a Snape fan and I like Harry and wanted to shout when I saw that they sent him in Privet Drive after they saw that it wasn't a good idea. If they let him alone again... I'll say it. In the Shack, Harry said that Snape looked crazy and that he never saw him like that. I think that it's true, Snape was crazy. It's like when someone was shot and refuse to see a psy. The next time that they hear a bang (car or firecracker), they're scared to death and/or begin to aim with the gun they just bought. I don't know the good term, when someone relive a horrible memory with the good stimuli. And Lupin+Black+Shack+James'Memory(Harry) is enough to sent Snape in the Prank time. All that to say, I won't be surprised (horrified, yes but not surprised) if we learn that after the Prank, the aftermath was "it was only a joke, you're not hurt so it was not grave, take a lemon drop and go back to bed. And never talk about this, no harm done after all!". So, a student face a werewolf and...nothing. Hermione (and 4 other persons) was a statue for many months and again, nothing. Two 11-years-old (Draco and Harry) saw a strange thing drinking the blood of a unicorn. The two first tasks in the Triwizard tournament, ect... It could be a demonstration of the spirit of the WW, where what's dangerous and inadmissible for us is OK for them, but if the Wizards should learn something from the Muggle, it would be the heal of the mind. Maybe the only help that the Longbottom received was only spells and potions, and they never tried something else. Christelle. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 12:09:29 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tickling the Ivory Keys In-Reply-To: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024418@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: <20040626120929.39561.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102903 "Jenni A. Merrifield" wrote: One of the scenes is the interior of the "Shrieking Shack" and I happened to notice that, among the few broken and scattered furnishings is a relatively untouched baby grand piano. It got me wondering how much we actually know about Lupin. I mean, why is there a piano there at all? Does Lupin play perhaps? If so, is that important in any way (maybe one of those "clues" JKR mentioned?) Also, how come it is still in relatively good condition? We are led to believe that a werewolf looses much of his "sense of self" during the time he is changed, even if Lupin does (or did) play the piano, why wouldn't the piano be just as damaged as all the other furniture in the house? -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Maybe it will be a case of "music soothes the savage beast"? Would one of the others be able to play to soothe Lupin "that time of the month"? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 26 12:16:29 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:16:29 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: References: <40DBEC0D.2364.4302F6@localhost> Message-ID: <40DDF5BD.7236.2F3E1B0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102904 On 25 Jun 2004 at 3:59, Meredith wrote: > Because Ron grew up in the Wizarding World, I'm sure Mr. and Mrs. > Granger understand HE cannot come and stay with them. But more > importantly, breaking away from your parents is a part of growing > up, especially when you go to boarding school. True to an extent - but not generally to this extent at the age of only 15. Seriously - I know about boarding schools - I went to one, I have a huge amount of contact with people who went to them, and a significant amount of contact with some kids who are at them now, And a 15 year old who has spent as little time with her parents as Hermione has over the last year and a half rings *serious* alarm bells in terms of their relationship. There's a huge difference between developing independence in term time, and having virtually no contact with your parents in the holidays. We're not talking about a young adult here - we're talking about a child. She may well be an unusually mature child (I think she is) but she is still a child. And her comments about becoming a prefect in OotP, implying that her parents don't understand most of her life, really does suggest that breaking away is not entirely her choice, and not entirely something she wants to do. Now, if Hermione's parents were part of the Wizarding World, or if the Harry Potter books were set a bit further back in time when professional parents in Britain sent their children to boarding schools much more often, I wouldn't be as concerned. But Hermione's parents are dentists (I guess middle class professionals) in 1990s Britain. The odds are they never intended to send their daughter to boarding school (it's not impossible by any means, but it would be a somewhat uncommon choice at that time). They are really not that likely to be from the type of cultural background that easily sends a child away to school. > When I went away to > college I came home for every break my first year. My second year I > stayed at school for fall and Spring break. And I got a job and > stayed in school for the whole summer between my junior and senior > year, only seeing my parents for a total of about 3 weeks for the > whole calendar year. Granted, I was older the Hermione (late > teens/early 20s), but I simply think children gain independence > sooner the earlier they are forced into it. There is a *lot* of difference between a child in their early and mid teens, and one in their late teens and early twenty in this regard. There really is. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From srobles at caribe.net Sat Jun 26 13:05:15 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:05:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione & Ron / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102905 Del wrote: > *Someone* has to change, whoever. And if it is Harry, then I'll be > more than happy to become a H/Hr shipper ! My reply (Anasazi): I think that witnessing Hermione nearly dying might open the door for Harry to change (after what happens to Sirius sinks in). And I'm not talking as a shipper... I just wish the boy would verbalize a little more how much his friends contribute to his particular quest and be thankful for it. I'm afraid that in OoTP he took them a bit for granted. From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sat Jun 26 13:57:57 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:57:57 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102906 Hi, everyone! I'm sorry about this, but we've had to delete the few posts that quote the Mugglenet article. It's a copyright concern, you see (it is for Mugglenet, too, but we don't work there ), so what I've done is collect the comments made and have included them below. All that's missing from this is the direct quote of the article, which can be found here: http://www.mugglenet.com/ (and here http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php? board=245&topic=14784493 on the chance that Mugglenet needs to remove it, too.) Please everyone, remember in future to just link to things like this, rather than copy the whole article here. Thanks so much! --Kelley 102879: Moonmyyst wrote: what does everyone know about Pillar of Storg?? 102881: Sherry G wrote: The date on this says July 1. As far as I know, unless I have really missed something, we haven't reached July 1 yet. I also just went to the text only site, and there are no updates on it. Of course, they might not put that information on that part of the site, but that wouldn't be too fair for people who can't access the fun puzzle part of the site. Sorry, I'm referring to JKR's site, not muggle net. It will be interesting to see how soon someone official admits or denies this one. 102882: "Jacqui" wrote: I don't know of anyone who has been able to get through the door except for certain people who are well knowledged in flash. I do believe that the door will be opened to the "public" come the first... 102884: Sue(hpfan) wrote: It's possible on this one, if it does in fact turn out to be real, the Web Master went "live" to make sure the site was ready for its official 7/1 release. Perhaps the person who got in, just got lucky and hit the site at exactly the right time. If it is true...what fun. The book can't be too far behind. BTW, the paperback release date is also encouraging, GOF (IIRC) didn't hit the stores in paperback for almost two years, approx. 6 months ahead of OotP. (Sorry I'm a little OT). Here's to visiting JKR's site on July 1, and hoping it's real! From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Sat Jun 26 14:42:15 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:42:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book six title Message-ID: <1cc.247007f9.2e0ee547@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102907 If it is true...what fun. The book can't be too far behind. BTW, the paperback release date is also encouraging, GOF (IIRC) didn't hit the stores in paperback for almost two years, approx. 6 months ahead of OotP. (Sorry I'm a little OT). Which PB version of GOF are you talking about, I bought my Us version PB GOF back in late 2002 sometime after January and I know they were in walmart in 2001. I only bought the PB because I had loaned my hardcover to someone I had thought was afriend and she never returned them, and that was in 2001 and before christmas 2002 I had the PB version which was more than 6 months, I believe I have mine a year and several months before OOPT came out. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 14:48:17 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:48:17 -0000 Subject: Conspiracies Unlimited (was Re: Neville and the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102908 Kneasy asked the question that has bugged us for years: > GoF chap. 34: > ....said Voldemort softly. "Answer me! Imperio!" > And Harry felt, for the *third time* in his life, the sensation...." > (my emphases). > > Third time? How does he reach this figure? > > The first occasion we know of is Crouch!Moody, who we are told > (GoF chap. 15) "put Harry through his paces four times in a row". > Voldy in the graveyard makes it five. > > So maybe it's not the number of *times* the Curse was thrown but > the number of *occasions* on which it was thrown. But there only > seem to be two that I can find. Maybe I've missed one somewhere > but I don't think so. If my count is accurate (and assuming that JKR > hasn't accidentally miscounted) then somewhere in the first 4 books > (or even before?) Harry has been Imperio!ed without making it > obvious to the reader. (snip) Ginger responds, tentatively: This is stretching it, but I knew I remembered Harry feeling like that at some other point in the books. I found it. GoF US, p. 103: ...but then the music started and Harry stopped worrying about them not being human- in fact, he stopped worrying about anything at all. The Veela had started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank." Compare this to p. 231, when C/M puts him under the Imperious: "It was the most wonderful feeling. Harry felt a floating sensation as every thought and worry in his head was gently wiped away, leaving nothing but a vague, untracable happiness." And to what you quoted, in part above, (US p. 661) "And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought.... Ah, it was bliss, not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming..." So now, O Great Master O' Conspiracy, we ponder: Did JKR mean this? Or is it a happy coincidence? Are the Veela practicing some sort of inate Imperious? If this is the case, are the Veela inately evil? Natural allies of LV? Inherantly Dark Creatures, regardless of their human appearance? Will we see them joining the Dark side? Is Bill in danger? Could he be the unwitting traitor we have wondered about in previous threads, which wonder if such a person might enter the storyline? If you sue a parsley farmer do they garnish his wages? Ok, forget the last one. ESE!Veela, anyone? Ginger, who never did like Fleur. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 14:49:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:49:56 -0000 Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102909 Carolyn wrote: And on the theme of storge: "The role of storge love; what is the hold that affectionate love has on humans? At what point does this kind of love cease to be love and becomes instead a demon?" vmonte responds: Kind of sounds like what's in the room at the DoM. page 843, U.S. version "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature." The love a parent has for their child is about the strongest love there is. You could say that the wrath of a parent, when protecting their child, can be equally demonic. vivian From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 26 14:50:43 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:50:43 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102910 Kneasy: > I don't think we can count the climax in PS/SS as an Imperius > moment, for while Harry obeys some of Quirrell!Mort's instructions > he doesn't obey others. Besides, he's not described as having that > floating sense of happiness and detachment that he feels on the > other two occasions. > > So, to paraphrase a recent thread - who and when? > > Answers on a Post Card to 'Conspiracies Unlimited' Dear Conspiracies Unlimited, I think the first time was the veela chicks at the QWC: "...Harry stopped worrying about them not being human--in fact, he stoped worrying about anything at all....the veela had started to dance and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank." (GOF, US, chap. 8, p. 103) You can make what you want of that; I find it a little ominous that Veelas can make men feel like they're under the Imperius curse. Doesn't bode well for ol' Bill Weasley does it? Sincerely, Jen Reese Conspiracy theorist in training From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 26 14:50:52 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (slytherinspirit) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:50:52 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: <1cc.247007f9.2e0ee547@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nrsedany2be at a... wrote: > If it is true...what fun. The book can't be too far behind. BTW, > the paperback release date is also encouraging, GOF (IIRC) didn't hit > the stores in paperback for almost two years, approx. 6 months ahead > of OotP. (Sorry I'm a little OT). > Danielle > Which PB version of GOF are you talking about, I bought my Us version PB GOF > back in late 2002 sometime after January and I know they were in walmart in > 2001. I only bought the PB because I had loaned my hardcover to someone I had > thought was afriend and she never returned them, and that was in 2001 and before > christmas 2002 I had the PB version which was more than 6 months, I believe > I have mine a year and several months before OOPT came out. > K And I got the UK PB version the Christmas after I'd seen the first HP movie (Xmas 2002) so if it was out in PB in both the US and the UK I would assume it was available in most other countries at roughly the same time, even with some delay a whole year later seems a bit over the top. K From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 15:44:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 15:44:56 -0000 Subject: What if Snape is using the penseive like DD, to find links, connections... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102912 vmonte: What if the penseive we saw belonged to Snape? What if both he and DD each have there own? There is something fishy about Snape (not a critique, just an observation). I think that he is trying to figure out something about Harry. A few months ago I posted a thought about the night of GH. That perhaps when Voldemort became vapormort, that the force of Lily's magic somehow split LV's essence in half. What was left of LV's humanity (Tom Riddle) went into Harry, and the rest became vapormort. (I also found out that someone posted the same theory months before me. I'll look that post up.) The idea is that baby Harry was sharing space with Tom. That both Harry and Tom are in the same body. Some canon to support this theory is that in CoS Harry recognizes Ton Riddle's name and for some reason believes that Tom seemed like a childhood friend he had. You also have DD's comments about "In essence divided..." Let's say that Tom is inside Harry. When Harry was a child he was aware of Tom as being a separate entity within, but as Harry grows older, Tom somehow becomes assimilated into his own personality. What if the only way to remove Tom from Harry is to bring him back to GH? What if only Lily has this power since it was her spell? Also, what if Snape has realized that Tom is inside of Harry? Why did Snape tell draco to use Serpentsorcia during the duel? What would make him think that Harry might have these powers? Maybe Snape has been protecting Harry all of these years because he needs him to survive till the point in time he can remove Riddle from Harry's psyche. Then again, who knows... vivian From strawberry at jamm.com Sat Jun 26 15:18:15 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 15:18:15 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasleys are Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102913 snow quoted: OOP pg. 163 "I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!" What are Fred and I, next-door neighbors? paulaboo commented: What bothers me about this statement and the first thing I thought of when I read it was: What about Ginny? She's not made prefect yet. strawberryJAMM replies: Mrs. Weasley not considering Ginny can easily be explained away by assuming a missing "so far" on the end of Molly's last sentence: "That's everyone in the family [so far]!" Or, in other words, that's all the members of the family who have reached 5th year at Hogwarts (and were thus, at one time or another, actually eligible for the role of prefect). This does not, of course, explain or excuse her obvious oversight regarding the twins. :-) -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Jenni A. M. Merrifield From ariana at astele.co.uk Sat Jun 26 15:14:01 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:14:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (long) References: Message-ID: <000201c45b97$cb1d4960$27567852@sony> No: HPFGUIDX 102914 > From Gina: > The trouble is if you type in Tom Marvolo Riddle you do not get I > am lord voldemort in the results. > > From Geoff: > Ah, now that's what I did to start with. But of course, Voldemort is > not a word in the program's vocabulary. If it's the same anagram > program I was using, you could specify that certain words had to > appear. Ariana: I recently wrote a short spoof about how Voldemort chose his name, and one of the most interesting anagrams that "Tom Marvolo Riddle" produced was "I love mad Lord Tom R." :) Though I do have a weakness for "Mild Leotard Vroom" too. Ariana (The spoof is at http://astele.co.uk/other/hp/riddle.asp but it's pretty rubbish) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 26 16:12:32 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:12:32 -0000 Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102915 > Carolyn: > And on the theme of storge (from C.S. Lewis): > > "The role of storge love; what is the hold that affectionate love has > on humans? At what point does this kind of love cease to be love and > becomes instead a demon?" Jen: I had to do some searching after reading your post Carolyn becuase 'storge' love was a new term for me. So I guess storge love, in relation to COS and OOTP, would mainly refer to mother-to-child love? That was the primary connection I could think of between the two books and familial love, in relation to the plot. Carolyn: > If this rumour has any truth in it at all, it would seem that Book 6 > could have an exceptionally ambivalent theme about family love, and > complicate our responses to 'bad guys' like Snape and Umbridge even > further, although I suppose we are to assume agape will overcome all > in the end. Jen: Please JKR, no more ethical complications and shades of gray! I've already have enough cognitive dissonance about the characters as it is. But, you're probably right Carolyn. There are several well- developed characters who are ripe for an explnation of familial love. Snape seems the best candidate after those scenes during Occlumency. Maybe the Potters or Evans as well? If Lily and Petunia ever experienced storge love, it certainly 'ceased to be love and became a demon'. And there's Hagrid and Grawp! Carolyn: > Personally, I am somewhat sceptical just because it is such a clumsy, > and frankly outrageously intellectual title. If she goes for it, that > would be amazing. She really will be setting some tough hurdles for > kids - yippee. Jen: After reading more about the four stages of love, I'd love to see JKR explore this theme. I still don't understand the 'Pillar' part of the alleged title though--are the four stages of love sometimes referred to as the four pillars of love? Jen Reese, learning more about philosophy on this list than she ever learned in school. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 26 16:39:27 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:39:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102916 | From: Jen Reese | Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 12:13 PM | Jen: | After reading more about the four stages of love, I'd love to see | JKR explore this theme. I still don't understand the 'Pillar' part | of the alleged title though--are the four stages of love sometimes | referred to as the four pillars of love? [Lee]: They could well be, and it could be the idea of a pillar holding something up, too. If that pillar is that which, in the end, holds harry up, giving him the support he needs... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Sat Jun 26 16:52:34 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (iggymcsnurd) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:52:34 -0000 Subject: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <40DAB3A7.1970.59FF991@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 23 Jun 2004 at 23:54, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > > > I was like Hermione in school... to certain extent. I always knew the > > answer (Not in all classes, mind you :o), in some), but I was shy > > enough to raise my hand all the time. > > > > I cannot remember of any teacher who tried to shut me up, when I > > indeed raised my hand. > Shaun Hately > > Whereas, I can remember about a dozen... it's one of those areas > where experiences can differ greatly. > > Now as I've said before, I work with gifted kids, and I was one. > Teacher hostility towards students who always answer the questions > is quite a common experience for these kids. It occurs for > multiple reasons - sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as > disruptive in some ways, because it discourages others from > answering. Sometimes it's because the teacher sees it as a form of > boasting. Sometimes it's because the teacher regards it as somehow > unfair to other students to let the bright child be too obvious. > Sometimes the teacher is a rotten teacher - other times, they may > actually be a very good teacher, just not specifically informed or > trained about teaching this specific population. > > Some teachers certainly do view these children as a plus in their > classrooms - but the opposite is a very recognised problem. > > I'm glad you didn't experience it - but it is very common indeed. > Iggy here: I am considered "gifted" as well (with an IQ on standard tests averaging at about 160. Higher when the tester listens to WHY I got an answer and can see its validity...) and have experienced teachers who have wanted me to skip ahead in grades, and others who wanted me held back as being "stupid" or "slow" because I was bored and couldn't focus. While I was far from knowing all the answers all the time, it was the classes where the teachers encouraged me to think, ask questions, and be creative where I flourished. I often developed a love of their subjects... at least until someone came along and firmly squashed that love by another teaching method. The problem I encountered all too often was that I don't think the way many other people do, and often ended up asking questions (usually in math) that even the teacher couldn't answer. Some times, the teacher would admit that they didn't know, but that I could try to find out with them after class (as a form of encouragement, not punishment...), but most often I got the "stop asking silly questions like that. It's not what we're learning here," reply. (Even if it actually was a logical extension of what we WERE studying.) I have had teachers like Trelawny, MacGonagal, and Sprout... Unfortunately, I have also had teachers like Binns... and one who was worse than Snape and Umbridge combined, for 2 whole years to boot. (She destroyed any love I could have possibly ever had for learnign history and social studies. To give an example of how bad she was: My initials are "RM". She once said to me, in the middle of the entire class, that it was too bad that my initials weren't "BM" so that they could nickname me "Bowel Movement." One of the other kids said "How about 'rectal movement'?" and she laughed and gave him an extra credit point for being clever. I was miserable in her class, and didn't have any real friends at the time... so I was darn near suicidal as a social outcast, and she only made things a lot worse.) Now, personally, I can see where Snape's methods of teaching actually work. Aside from the Slytherins (who are both his pets, and have a pre-disposition for potions...with the exception of Crabbe and Goyle...), the ones who are most likely to do well in his classes are the strong-willed ones who not only refuse to give up, but have a strong drive to prove themselves against his challenges. (IMHO, Hermione is actually not of that type. She has a strong need not to prove herself, but rather, to prove that she knows how to do anything and everything. It's not out of a sense of superiority, more of a sense that it's where she thinks her true value lies... not in her loyalty, honesty, and who she is as a person. Just my opinion there...) I also agree, that while Snape might make an adequate DADA teacher, I don't think he'll ever make a truly great one. (And Umbridge should never have been a teacher of any sort in the first place.) While postions require a level of strict precision that Snape excells at... DADA requires precition in the knowledge, but a creativity in application that I don't think Snape really has in him. While Snape has the sense of duty, responsibility, and the knowledge that is required for DADA, I don't feel he has he innate sense of empathy and understandign, as well as the creativity, that made Lupin (and even Fake!Moody) excellent DADA instructors. Many of the skills you need require an understanding of how a person feels or thinks (such as with "Expecto Patronum" and dealing with the Boggarts), and an innate sympathy on some level for dealing with how kids react to a scary subject that can invoke some rather extreme reactions (like Harry dealing with the Dementors, and Neville and the "Crucio" curse. Even as conniving and evil as he was, Fake!Moody didn't HAVE to comfort Neville and be paternal towards him to achieve his goals... which shows an odd sense of compassion in an evil man, IMHO.) While it might be interesting to see Snape get the job as the DADA teacher, I honestly think it would be one of the worst moves JKR could make for him. He's much better where he is. Just my two centaurs worth here... Iggy McSnurd From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 17:08:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:08:35 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: <104026cb0406241558463422ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102918 Rellie wrote: > Sirius almost sent Severus to his death, and he didn't get expelled. > Draco, and the Gryffindors, have such public brawls again and again, > yet they didn't get expelled. In "normal", well muggle schools, if > you repeatedly commit such offences, you will definitely get > expelled. Del replies : One word : Dumbledore. *He* is the one who is lax. We repeatedly read about how DD goes against the tradition to allow some things that would never have happened otherwise to happen. Like accepting a werewolf in school. Remus says pretty clearly (don't have my books, sorry) that he would not have been admitted to Hogwarts under another Headmaster : it's DD who made it possible. In the times of Hagrid's schooling, DD was not the Headmaster, so Hagrid was expelled *without proof*. *However* DD got him a job as Gamekeeper assistant. DD, always DD. Rellie wrote: > I believe the rules there for expulsion is rather lax compared to > muggle schools, thus there is not really so much a danger of one not > having the "right" to education. Del replies : Without DD, Remus would not have had a right for education. Rellie wrote: > for perhaps for the other two, maybe you have to pay fees or > something. They seem like more of the "privileged" schools for rich > kids instead of open for all types of public schools. Just look at > their robes, FUR and SILK? Del replies : Considering where Durmstrang is situated, I'd say furs are a commom item there. Silk, on the other hand... Hmm... Hey, maybe they are given by the school ? Madame Maxime looks like the kind who likes to surround herself with beautiful things, so maybe she has arranged for the school uniforms to be offered to the students ? Or maybe it was a gift to the potential champions only, to make them look nice ? We just don't know I guess. Del From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 17:20:44 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:20:44 -0000 Subject: Legilimency and the Fidelius (was: Re: Wormtail and the Map (WAS The Map and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102919 Eloise : I hadn't thought of that before. I'm sure that there was a lot that Voldemort could find out from Peter via legilimency, but just how would Legilimency and the *Fidelius Charm* interact? I don't think Legilimency could override the Fidelius in the sense that Voldemort could have looked into Pettigrew's brain and known where the Potters were. So can the charm be broken by Legilimency? Alina ...from what we've seen so far, it wouldn't be too hard for him to "persuade" Pettigrew to share it. (and from another post) And I'm saying that regardless of how the Fidelius Charm works, I believe Legimency would allow Voldemort to know there's a secret kept from him, but not to "mind read" that secret. Valky: Sirius: "...the night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didnt feel right." The Servant of Lord Voldemort, POA I construe this paragraph to strongly indicate that Peter willingly donated the information to LV minus any direct act of persuasion. In most cases of Pettigrew canon I fully interpret Peter as having been persauded by the Lure of Reward to do LV's bidding notwithstanding his fear of the Dark Lords power. Bookworm: My image of Legilimency is that one person can read the surface thoughts in another. In both the book and the movie, when Sirius accused him of betraying the Potters, Peter said, "I didn't mean to." (Sorry, my daughter took our copy on vacation so I can't site the quote.) If Voldemort had asked a simple question ? "Do you know where the Potters are hiding?" ? that would have brought the information to the `surface' of Peter's mind where Voldemort could see it. The Fidelius Charm didn't have to be broken; as the Secret-Keeper, Peter was the only person who *could* tell where the Potters were. As far as the struggle is concerned, Peter had been `working' with Voldemort for about a year. So if a couple of DE's showed up and said "The boss wants to see you" I think he would have gone along quietly. Ravenclaw Bookworm From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:12:48 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:12:48 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wisteria053" wrote: > ~Maitresse wrote: > > Bill and Percy both received twelve O.W.L.s, I assumed Hermione > would be on par with Bill and Percy but as to my calculations she > is only taking ten classes so how would you get twelve O.W.L.s > from that? > Betsy: > > Hi. I guess that some classes counts for two O.W.L.S. because > they include a theory and a practical exams. > > SNIP > Wisteria053: > > Assuming we are talking about the British equivalent of O levels > or GCSEs, ... my son - ... - is taking one subject described as a > "double" and worth two GSCEs. So maybe the harder courses like > "Double Potions" are worth two OWLs. > > "wisteria053" Asian_lovr2: We have established that there are 12 classes. Personally, I think it is unlikely that anyone could take all 12 classes. We see from Hermione's example that taking 12 is an extremely difficult and stressful situation, and she is only able to manage it with the help of a time-turner. So, I have to conclude that taking 12 is extremely rare, but getting 12 OWLs, while certainly outstanding, is somewhat common; several people in the books have done it. Given that, it seem equally unlikely that anyone could 'test out' of enough additional classes to get 12 OWLS (if we assume one OWL per subject). I seriously doubt that Percy 'tested out' of Muggle Studies. And, we have the scheduling conflicts involved in trying to sit for all 16 tests. Core Classes: (7 total) Transfiguration - Charms - Potions - Defense Against Dark Arts - Astronomy - Herbology - History of Magic Elective Classes: (5 total) Arithmancy - Ancient Runes - Muggle Studies - Care of Magical Creatures - Divination Classes for which you must sit TWO tests; practical and written (by my estimation: (4 total) Transfiguration - Charms - Potions - Defense Against the Dark Arts The TWO Test classes could be counted as two OWLs for a variety of reasons. First, the simple fact that you sit two tests for some classes; one OWL credit for each test. Second, it could be related to the difficulty of the course. Example, college/university courses are rated in 'Credits'. A 2 credit course is easier than a 4 credit course; 4 is about average, and a 6 credit course would be very difficult and demanding. So, again, 'double' credit for the hardest demanding classes. Which, coincidentally, are the same classes you sit two test for. This would be the equivalent of the 'Double' O-Level/GCSE tests that Wisteria and others have mentioned. I'm curious; a question for anyone who is familiar with O-Level/GCSE, are there any real world examples of classes where you must sit TWO test to receive full credit in the class? In any event, I am personally convinced that it is one OWL for every test you sit. Potions, as an example, requires you to sit two test, each test represents an OWL credit. Based on this belief, I estimated that Harry and Ron are taking 9 classes and are eligible for 13 possible OWL credits. Hermione is taking 10 classes and is eligible for 14 OWL credits. I just can't imagine Hermione getting less than 'Acceptable - the last passing grade' in anything, therefore I must assume she will get 14 credits. In my previous post, I estimated that Harry and Ron would get between 8 and 10 OWL credits. I DO NOT believe that Harry received an 'Outstanding' in his Potions OWLS. Snape's students generally, as a whole, manage a 'high pass' grade. Harry thinks he squeezed by with a pass, most of us, including myself, assume he did better than the thinks he did. That would raise him from 'Acceptable' to 'Exceeds Expectations' which is a 'high pass' grade. It's just too unlikely for him to jump all the way to the highest possible grade when he felt the test was difficult, and that he did not do well. Mostly a repeat of what I said before but I think the discussion has indicated more people supporting 'double' credit classes. Just a thought. Steve/Asian_lovr2 (whose previous username (bboy_mn) seems to have permanently gone to the great electon graveyard in the sky - thank you Yahoo for such great service) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Jun 26 18:13:28 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:13:28 -0000 Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Carolyn: > > And on the theme of storge (from C.S. Lewis): > > > > "The role of storge love; what is the hold that affectionate love > has on humans? At what point does this kind of love cease to be love and becomes instead a demon?" > > Jen: I had to do some searching after reading your post Carolyn > becuase 'storge' love was a new term for me. So I guess storge love, in relation to COS and OOTP, would mainly refer to mother-to- child love? That was the primary connection I could think of between the two books and familial love, in relation to the plot. Carolyn (again): I am by no means a philosophy expert, but storge is one of four concepts the ancient Greeks used to describe types of love. They are: storge - love & loyalty within families philia - love & friendship between non-related people eros - romantic, erotic love agape - divine love The basic concept is that the first three on their own, although nice in theory, can turn against themselves. Ie, families can be riven by rivalry and hatred, friends can fall out, erotic love can also lead to cause pain and heartache. The Greeks' idea was that you needed the addition/intervention of agape (divine, self-less love) in each case to prevent this happening. (Seriously over-simplying the concepts, but that's the gist, I think). I don't think 'storge' is limited to mother-child love, I think it encompasses any relationship between family members. *If* this really is the theme she is driving at in Book 6, it could be explosive. There are so many difficult family situations in the books - Malfoys, Blacks, Weasleys, Dursleys, Longbottoms..never mind the ones we don't know about yet. In fact, I can't think of a completely happy family. > > Carolyn: > > If this rumour has any truth in it at all, it would seem that Book 6 could have an exceptionally ambivalent theme about family love, and complicate our responses to 'bad guys' like Snape and Umbridge even further, although I suppose we are to assume agape will overcome all in the end. > > Jen: Please JKR, no more ethical complications and shades of gray! > I've already have enough cognitive dissonance about the characters > as it is. But, you're probably right Carolyn. There are several well-developed characters who are ripe for an explnation of familial > love. Snape seems the best candidate after those scenes during > Occlumency. Maybe the Potters or Evans as well? > > If Lily and Petunia ever experienced storge love, it > certainly 'ceased to be love and became a demon'. And there's Hagrid and Grawp! Carolyn again: Well, we differ here. The darker, grainier and more ambivalent the series gets, the better for me. I would like the books to make a stab at being great literature, not end up as a simplistic tale of good and evil for kids. I don't know whether she has the experience or writing skills to carry it off, but I'd sure like to see her try. And yes, Snape is a prime candidate for this theme - not just his possible family history, but also his friendships/loyalties, whatever they are. Not so sure I am as engaged with Grawp, but I'll make an effort ! > > Carolyn: > > Personally, I am somewhat sceptical just because it is such a clumsy, and frankly outrageously intellectual title. If she goes for it, that would be amazing. She really will be setting some tough hurdles for kids - yippee. > > Jen: > After reading more about the four stages of love, I'd love to see > JKR explore this theme. I still don't understand the 'Pillar' part > of the alleged title though--are the four stages of love sometimes > referred to as the four pillars of love? > Carolyn again: I think the term 'pillar' has come about because the four types of love are fundamental to a lot of Christian theoretical thinking. Amongst many writers, CS Lewis wrote extensively about them - eg in 'The Four Loves'. They are not stages, as I understand them, just different types of love, and the first three can get very black. 'Storge' in particular should not be thought of something necessarily warm and cuddly. Think the madness of Mrs Black, and the darker sides of Molly's coddling. If it is the theme, it would be plausible to think of whatever is in the locked room at the MoM as symbolic agape. Opening it up might solve all the disunity etc. Its the redemption theme of divine love all over again. Something triumphing over all the myriad character complications she has presented to us (family, friends, erotic). But as a profound sceptic and non-believer, this bit appears quite ridiculous to me as a notion, (and unlikely to work as a major plot resolution device) so I hope she thinks of something a bit more cunning ! In a post a while back, I jokingly saw them blowing opening the room, and everyone getting splattered with love, including Snape, who immediately started hugging innocent passers-by. You see the problem... The more I think about it, I think it is a spoof, but where did it come from ? Wouldn't put it past JKR herself to have started it - an almost definite indication that she reads this list! But just think of the scene at Warner Bros when they hear the title! To paraphrase Uncle Vernon: FatWB Controller: 'So..so..what exactly is this storgy-whatsit?' JKR: 'Its a common theme in Greek philosophy which has influenced many important religious thinkers.' FatWB Controller opens his mouth, closes it again..apparently struggling to remember how to talk. JKR (brightly): 'Its one of four key concepts, which include philia, eros and agape'. FatWB Controller (shouting): 'Enough - effing - philosophy..you mean that there's sex in this one? And phil..philly..you know, messing about... I can't put anything like that in a kids film!' Etc..etc Yes, indeed, a wildly subversive, and extremely clever rumour to have started off, I salute the perpetrator, whatever the truth of it. Carolyn From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:05:01 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:05:01 -0000 Subject: Percy=Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102922 If Ron could be Dumbledore, why not Percy? Doesn't Percy have more intellectual traits that could develop into the "greatest Wizard"? In no timeline, can I imagine Ron developing Dumbledore's personality. He's just not reflective enough nor intellectually curious enough to become a polymath like Dumbledore. Percy, on the other hand, has shown intellectual acumen, a strong work ethic, and extreme self-discipline when sticking to his principles. Notice that Dumbledore can keep a secret. Percy can, also. Percy is comfortable in the arenas of power. Dumbledore is, as well. Since Dumbledore seems to share physical traits with the Weasleys, why couldn't Percy be the Weasley who becomes him? Wouldn't this be a great redemption for Percy? Perhaps he is thrown (or throws himself) back in time. For purposes of the timeline he was born into, he dies. To his family from that point on, he's presumed dead. Maybe there is a tearful scene of realization, when the dust settles, when, after the family gives up on Percy's return, yet knows he has sacrificed himself for their cause, Dumbledore tells Molly and Arthur of his true identity, then dies. Thoughts? --"Brian B." From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:07:03 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:07:03 -0000 Subject: Not All Weasleys are Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" wrote: > snip >This does not, of course, explain or excuse her obvious oversight > regarding the twins. :-) "Brian B." adds: What about the uncanny resemblance to Fred and George Ginny shows when she sets her jaw in OOTP? From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:29:40 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:29:40 -0000 Subject: Tickling the Ivory Keys... or not. In-Reply-To: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024418@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenni A. Merrifield" wrote: > I was just visiting the "marauder's map" section of the official > Warner Brother's web site for Harry Potter, ...edited... > > One of the scenes is the interior of the "Shrieking Shack" and I > happened to notice that, among the few broken and scattered > furnishings is a relatively untouched baby grand piano. ..., why is > there a piano there at all? Does Lupin play perhaps? ...edited.. > > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- > > -- > Jenni A. M. Merrifield Asian_lovr2: Let's not confuse the movie with the books. In the book, the room is clearly a bedroom with "a magnificent four-poster bed with dusty hangings" not a ratty old 'bunk-bed' matress in the corner as seen in the movie, and NO mention of a piano in the book. In movie, the room seems to be more of a parlor or lounge, where as in the books, it is without question a bedroom. If the piano was really there, it certainly has nothing to do with Lupin. It was simply one of the funishings left over from the original owners of the house. Just a thought. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From CoyotesChild at charter.net Sat Jun 26 18:32:08 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (iggymcsnurd) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:32:08 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, true Seer In-Reply-To: <75.2cd24708.2e0b9a93@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102925 > Batchevra: > I think that Trelawney does see what is happening but interprets it wrong. > Take the fact that she constantly saw the Grim in POA when dealing with Harry. > She interprets it as a bad omen, but as we find out later, Sirius is a black > dog and in OOTP he comes from Grimmauld place. Her seeing this black dog around > Harry is correct, but wrong about it being a bad omen. Iggy here: I think Trelawny is like a lot of people who have the sight... especially as the great granddaughter of a renowned seer... she expects that she can force herself to see... even though she professes that the sight cannot be forced. (In other words, she doesn't practice what she... teaches...) She also expects more of herself than she can realistically deliver, which (in itself) becomes a block to what she really can do. I agree that she probably misinterprets what she sees, because she teaches out of a book. One of the first thing any person who practices divination will tell you is to let your own sight be your guide, and only use a book as a guide of possibilities. If you see something in a Tarot spread that goes against what the common perception is, trust your own instincts. If you don't see something clearly.. then consult the book and use it to help as a possible clue or guide, but let yourself interpret from there. (I have done a number of Tarot readings, and I trust my instincts first, and the book second.) It's my opinion that the three biggest blocks to her achieving her potential are: 1) She feels that she must live up to the reputation of her great grandmother, Cassandra. (Who, inceidentally, nobody ever believed and almost always foretold doom and destruction.) This puts a lot of pressure on her to live up tot he family name. 2) Seers have a reputation for being all-knowing and mysterious. Trelawny tries to live up to that image... to the detriment of her true potential and her credibility. and 3) She doesn't trust her own instincts and sight. If she would learn to trust her own instincts, and not what she's told things mean, or what people might want them to mean, or even what fits the image of a seer the best, then she could actually be MUCH more than qualified to teach divination. Think of it this way... the original astrologers, rune-casters, numerologists, and soothsayers didn't have teachers or learn from books. They had to learn by watching the patterns of the things around them and see how things behaved. For example, the omen that birds flying low meaning rain has a basis in fact... they fly low because of the lower air pressure, which often means rain is on its way. The old seers trusted their observations and their own instincts. Trelawny doesn't. As a little side note... Trelawny thought Sirius was a Grim... A harbinger of death... Sirius was stuck at Grim-mauld place... this imprisonment contributed to his own death... Trelawny DID see a Grim... Sirius Black... He was his own Grim, and (in his own way) foretold his own death... Just an idea... *grin* Iggy McSnurd From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:32:09 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:32:09 -0000 Subject: Harry & his potions O.W.L Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102926 This is just a thought on Harry's Potions O.W.L. in OotP, but I think he just may get an O(utstanding). After Snape stopped teaching him Occlumency, Harry was worried how Snape would treat him, and Harry says that... (page 660, American version)"Snape,meanwhile, seemed to have decided to act as though Harry were invisible....and was pleased to find out that when left well alone, he was able to concoct an Invigoration Draught quite easily." During the actual test, Snape probably won't be monitoring the exam... none of the other teachers seem to monitor their own subjects...so Harry may very well do a great job...he's smart enough, just has bad luck concentrating when Snape is around... Maybe he'll have more courage when he gets an "O" on the exam. IMHO.....Amy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 26 19:07:22 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:07:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? References: <1088240082.6803.13875.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001a01c45bb0$cfcff2a0$d84a6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 102927 Alla wrote: >Oooo, interesting, but I got a little confused. Could you clarify, >please? Are you in essense saying that magical quill detects all >muggle-borns magical children and ALL of them get Hogwarts letters, >but it does not relate to Purebloods, for whom some selection >criteria exists? > >So, basically it is harder for pureblood child to get into Hogwarts >than for muggle-born? That's broadly what I'm saying, though I'd take a different approach on some of the underlying questions. The question put to JKR was about how the WW knows about Muggleborn children with magical ability - the answer is that there is the quill. From the standpoint of the WW generally, it doesn't want lots of wizards wandering about in Muggledom unaware of their abilities. Most importantly, it would threaten the secrecy laws if there were rogue wizards likely to stumble across the magical world unawares. It could also be a source of recruits for Voldemort or any of his predecessors. So the WW wants them on the inside, and the process of acculturation within Hogwarts seems to work to that effect (as witness the thread that's been going on about Hermione moving away from her parents' world). _All_ muggleborns (and I would include there anyone with at least one Muggle parent) get a Hogwarts letter. The next issue is my take on the "how big is Hogwarts/how many wizards are there anyway" question (for which there is no canon answer). JKR has said that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts. Before saying it, the books suggested that there were many fewer (40/year). After she said it, canon has fitted into the larger figure. She also said that around a quarter of the students are muggleborn (by which I assume she means having one muggle parent). If we also assume that some students (say a third) leave after taking their OWLs, that means a yearly intake of around 150-160. A quarter of those would be around 40 Muggleborns. If we assume (I'm doing a lot of assuming, I know) that a third have a Muggle mother, a third have a Muggle father, and a third have two Muggle parents, then it actually means that only 13 or so children are born each year with no magical parent (hardly the enormous cultural threat which the Purebloods seem to think). Next problem is whether the remaining 3/4 of the Hogwarts places are sufficient for all the remaining children in the WW. The cultural context of the stories suggests that the total population is far too high for this to be possible. So some (exactly how many depends on your theory on exactly how many wizards there are) necessarily have to be educated somewhere else. Hogwarts is a "school of witchcraft and wizardry" and I find it helpful to think of it in the same sort of way that I'd think of a college of technology in our world. The WW _runs_ on magic, so that _every_ child would grow up in an atmosphere where certain spells were used just to keep the home running: they wouldn't need to go to school to learn that sort of thing. And similarly, I tend to think that most children go from being taught the basics at home to getting the rest of their learning for life via some sort of apprenticeship (as children in our world used to do). Although we've only got limited knowledge of the backgrounds of the WW students in the books, the ones we _do_ know about have "elite" families - they work (or worked) in the Ministry, the media, etc, (eg Neville, Ron, Luna) or alternatively are members of the pureblood aristocracy (Draco, Sirius). IIRC, we've not been introduced to any _WW_ student whose families are "working class". This suggests to me that a Hogwarts education is something that's important to the aristocracy but also to the "educated classes" generally. It's not comparable to the kind of comprehensive education which real world kids get. So, returning to your original question! Firstly, I don't think the WW is made up just of "pureblood" and "muggleborn" people - I think it's easy to identify someone who's "muggleborn" - because by definition they have a Muggle parent. Likewise, someone who claims to be a "pureblood" had better have some sort of evidence to back it up (eg a tapestry). But in the middle are a huge number of people who may or may not have a Muggle lurking around in the ancestry somewhere a few generations back but don't really give a toss. From that POV, it's not actually hard for a "pureblood" to get into Hogwarts because there aren't many "purebloods" anyway and their families have the mindset and the connections to get them in. But from the broader perspective of whether education is a right or a privilege, I don't think it's a question that someone in the WW would understand anyway. In our world, education tends to be identified as a "commodity delivered through schools" and debates over access are about whether it should be universal - a "right or a privilege". But in the WW, attending an Academy just isn't _necessary_ for most of its denizens, they seem to manage perfectly happily as they are. Long way round the houses, I know, but I hope it goes deeper into my take on the matter But JKR alone knows all Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 19:13:14 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:13:14 -0000 Subject: Harry & his potions O.W.L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102928 Amy wrote: This is just a thought on Harry's Potions O.W.L. in OotP, but I think he just may get an O(utstanding). After Snape stopped teaching him Occlumency, Harry was worried how Snape would treat him, and Harry says that... (page 660, American version)"Snape,meanwhile, seemed to have decided to act as though Harry were invisible....and was pleased to find out that when left well alone, he was able to concoct an Invigoration Draught quite easily." vmonte responds: I completely agree. I think that Harry is going to get Outstanding in potions. I also bet Neville will too.... vivian From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 19:15:50 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:15:50 -0000 Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > > > From Mugglenet: > > > 1st July 2004 > > > > (snip) > > The more clever Potter fans may recognize that > > the title relates directly to both 'Order of the > > Phoenix' and 'Chamber of Secrets.' I will be > > highly amused if one of you can guess exactly > > what's going on! >(snip) > > The title of Book 6 is: > > Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storg? > > Oh boy this could get a lot worse than "Philosophy for Kids" I did a little bit of background research on the off chance that this is for real. First Tidbit: Father Pavel Florensky's "The Pillar and Ground of Truth" identifies 2 possibilities for storge: marriage and brotherly adoption. (take that and run with it where you may, I have no comment) Second Tidbit concerning relation to books 2 and 5: Charles Williams creates a system of virtues in pairs. Pair 1 = the Lion and the Lamb "and the lion will lie down with the lamb" neither will have autonomy following the completion of this biblical prophesy. Ginny Weasley and Tom Riddle COS Pair 2 = the Serpent and the Phoenix, the Phoenix represents earthly love (storge), while the Serpent represents a seal of silence and knowledge of discretion. Definitely a realization of relationships in OOtP Pair 3 = the Horse and the Unicorn, the Horse is speed with out direction and the Unicorn is purity. The Unicorn must direct the Horse towards its goal or the lack of direction will have the Horse running towards the gates of Hell Interesting . . . eh? Just as a note Williams last virtue is lacking a mate . . . it is the Butterfly, whose awesome majesty and beauty absorb his character (Mr Tighe) completely and bodily. Lady McBeth, has a Hermione complex From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 19:24:01 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:24:01 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102930 For those who don't know there is a strong rumor going around that the name of the next book is 'Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storg?'. This has been posted on Mugglenet and at The Leaky Cauldron, it's something someone claims to have discovered on JKR official website, although it appears that it wasn't suppose to become public knowledge until the first of July. For those who are not following along, 'Storge' is one of the four philisophical concepts of love- Storge - love & loyalty within families Philia - love & friendship between non-related people Eros - romantic, erotic love Agape - divine love In concept the 'pillar' or strength of family love is great, but the previous titles have all referred to REAL objects, ...well, real in books. "Harry Potter and... ... the Philosophers Stone" (an actual stone) ... the Chamber of Secrets" (a real chamber in the castle) ... the Prisoner of Azkaban" (a real escaped prisoner) ... the Goblet of Fire" (a real cup related to the Tri-Wizards Tournement) ... the Order of the Phoenix" (a real organized group of people) and now... ... the Pillar of Storge" [although not officially confirmed yet] Questions- -Does anyone know of any real world monuments to the four concepts of philisophical love? Are they by any chance 'pillars' or stone columns? -I can very easly see the 'Pillar of Storge' as a concept that applies to the books and fits nicely into the story line. Family love could be and is a very deep and complex theme in the books already. The problem I have is with the assumption that the book titles will be consistent all the way through the series, which implies that the 'Pillar of Storge' is a real object. So... what could it be and why does it exist? ...a monument to love? ...a special magical object? ...a monument to Phillip Storge, the inventor of the Self-Weeding Garden Charm? (I made that up, but I think you get the point) I remember may speculation about what the 'Goblet of Fire' was, and it would be nice to go back an look them up, if only they weren't buried under 50,000 posts. I remember many of my own deep and well thought out speculations that I was convinced were right; which, of course, were hopelessly wrong. I guess my point is that I have no problem with the philisophical concept of 'Pillar of Storge', but I'm at a loss for a way to turn it into a real physical or magical object, or place. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 19:41:59 2004 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:41:59 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > In concept the 'pillar' or strength of family love is great, but the > previous titles have all referred to REAL objects, ...well, real in books= . > > "Harry Potter and... > ... the Philosophers Stone" (an actual stone) > ... the Chamber of Secrets" (a real chamber in the castle) > ... the Prisoner of Azkaban" (a real escaped prisoner) > ... the Goblet of Fire" (a real cup related to the Tri-Wizards Tournement= ) > ... the Order of the Phoenix" (a real organized group of people) > > and now... > > ... the Pillar of Storge" [although not officially confirmed yet] If this is really the title of book 6, then I would indeed expect the pillar to be a real artifact. It does not follow from this that the pillar= is meant to represent love, hold up love, or contain love. Storg? (look! I made an accent ague!) could simply be the name of the object, one that some people (such as overzealous HP fans with an itchy Google finger) would be able to see a deeper level of, but that understanding wouldn't be necessary to the enjoyment or the understanding of the book. Storg?, in short, could simply be a name. We've seen this before, of course. How many times has a breathless newbie (and some oldbies) logged on and announced to us that if you reverse the text on the Mirror of Erised, you get... And yet there's never an explanation of what Erised means because one isn't necessary. In the Potterverse, Erised is simply a nonsense word. In summary, I would expect there to be a real pillar, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be a physical manifestation of storg?. Abigail From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Jun 26 20:01:35 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:01:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102932 Chapter 21 Summary -- The Eye of the Snake Ron and Harry, buried in homework, try to study in the Gryffindor common room while ignoring the revelry outside. Hermione returns from Hagrid's hut, having tried to help him with his lesson plans. The Gryffs and Slyths arrive for Hagrid's first day back with some trepidation, especially since Hagrid has a slab of raw meat slung over his shoulder as he leads them into a dark section of the forest. Hagrid drops the meat, emits a 'shrieking cry' or two, then waits. Soon, a few thestrals emerge from the forest to eat the meat. Harry is pleased to see that two other students can see the thestrals: Neville and 'a stringy Slytherin boy.' A terrified Parvati, though she can't see them, insists that they're bad luck, according to Trelawney. Hagrid says 'tha's jus' superstition, that is, they aren' unlucky, they're dead clever an' useful!' He calls on Hermione to explain that 'the only people who can see Thestrals are people who have seen death.' Umbridge announces her presence in the usual way, and Hagrid at first wonders if the curious 'hem hem' came from a Thestral. Umbridge Speaks Loudly And Slowly to Hagrid, using big gestures. Hagrid answers in kind, and Umbridge notes it as Utter Stupidity while Hermione fumes under her breath. The exchange between Hagrid and Umbridge would be totally hilarious were it not for the dire nature of the situation. (As it stands, the scene is only extremely funny.) December arrives, the homework piles on, and the prefects find themselves with extra duties. For the first time, Harry wishes he could spend Christmas *away* from Hogwarts. Ron finally remembers to tell Harry that he's invited to The Burrow for Christmas. At the last DA meeting before the holidays, Dobby decorates the Room of Requirement with Harry-faced ornaments and mistletoe. Angelina, Katie, and Alicia announce that Ginny is the new Seeker, and Andrew Kirke and Jack Sloper the new Beaters. They practice Impedimenta and Stunning. Cho hangs behind after everyone but Harry leaves. She begins to weep and talk about Cedric. They find themselves under the mistletoe, and before Harry knows it, the paragraph ends with an ellipsis, followed by an asterisk. Harry returns to the Common Room a half-hour later. Hermione figures out that Harry just got kissed. Ron is psyched; Harry is in some weird orbit -- or not. Hermione tries to explain Cho's state of mind, which leaves both Harry and Ron profoundly confused. Hermione writes to Krum, and Ron sulks. They retire for the night. Harry begins to dream about a jumbled version of the day's events. Then the dream abruptly shifts: Harry is a snake gliding toward a seated man. Snake!Harry attacks the man, biting him. Harry's scar burns white hot. Harry is awakened by Ron's shouting. He vomits in reaction to the pain. Ron tells him it was just a dream, but Harry insists it's not. He tells McGonagall that Arthur was attacked. She believes him, and they're off to Dumbledore's office. 1. How is the following passage emblematic of the relationship between Ron and the twins? 'Oi!' bellowed Ron, finally losing patience and sticking his head out of the window, 'I am a prefect and if one more snowball hits this window -- OUCH!' He withdrew his head sharply, his face covered in snow. 'It's Fred & George,' he said bitterly, slamming the window behind him. 'Gits ...' 2. Is it significant that the first Thestral appears between two yew trees? 3. If Harry saw Cedric die, why didn't he see the Thestrals at the end of GoF? Just kidding!! See the OoP FAQ for the answer. 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the 'stringy Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name secret? (And don't say it's that kid from That-Which-Should-Be-Discussed-On-HPFGU-Movie, because we don't know who *he* is, either.) 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? 6. Is it significant that Luna points out the mistletoe to Harry? 7. Cho turns on the waterworks and the Cedric-talk as a way to bust a move on Harry. What in sam hill is she thinking? Does Hermione explain it correctly? 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR *do* this to me? 9. Why is Harry so sure he wasn't just dreaming about the snake? Why does McGonagall so readily believe him? 10. How can we readers tell that the snake vision is not just a dream? 11. Snake!Harry can 'see objects around him shimmering in strange, vibrant colours.' Why? 12. 'Harry longed to bite the man ... but he must master the impulse ... he had more important work to do ...' What work? 13. Is this the first time Voldemort knows the Order is guarding the Prophecy? 14. What do we learn here about the limits of Invisibility Cloaks? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 To sign up to do a chapter discussion, go to "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database ANOTHER NOTE: I've been meaning to announce the upload of the following files, but I keep forgetting! Blast that Memory Charm! Check out this Sermon by Unitarian minister and long-time HPfGUer Amy Z: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/HPServiceII.doc A Useful Index of HPforGrownUps posts, in Excel or Tab-delimited file. Check back for updates! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Indexes_Catalogs/ --Dicey Elf From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 20:03:26 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:03:26 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102933 >>> Steve wrote: > I can very easly see the 'Pillar of Storge' as a concept that applies to the books and fits nicely into the story line. Family love could be and is a very deep and complex theme in the books already. > The problem I have is with the assumption that the book titles will be consistent all the way through the series, which implies that the 'Pillar of Storge' is a real object. So... what could it be and why does it exist? <<< Bren now: Hmm, I took the meaning of 'Pillar of Storge' to be both literal/physical and thematic/metaphorical. As for the thematic interpretation of 'Pillar of Storge', well I'm not a philosopher nor do I pretend to be, so I'm going to go with other posts and just nod along. As for 'Pillar of Storge' being a real object, the first thing that came to my mind was the Gargoyle door leading to DD's office, for some odd reason. But assuming that there is a consistency in the book titles, every new title object had been, well, NEW in each book. So my SIMPLE guess is that 'Pillar of Storge' is the form in which Sirius takes to come back for Harry's protection (can you spell SAD DENIAL? lol) Any more creative ideas, as usual ;P ?? Bren From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 20:37:04 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:37:04 -0000 Subject: Pillar of Storge (was Re: What if Snape is using the penseive like DD...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102934 >>> Vivian wrote: > The idea is that baby Harry was sharing space with Tom. That both Harry and Tom are in the same body. Some canon to support this theory is that in CoS Harry recognizes Tom Riddle's name and for some reason believes that Tom seemed like a childhood friend he had. You also have DD's comments about "In essence divided..." > Let's say that Tom is inside Harry. When Harry was a child he was aware of Tom as being a separate entity within, but as Harry grows older, Tom somehow becomes assimilated into his own personality. > What if the only way to remove Tom from Harry is to bring him back to GH? What if only Lily has this power since it was her spell? <<< Bren now: Vivian, I like this theory very much. Well-done!! It will fit neatly into Harry turning time to the night of Godric's Hallow, etc et With the new "intel" on the title of Book 6, and Steve's suggestion that "Pillar of Storge" might be a real object... My first very- simple guess was that this is the form Sirius takes to come back for Harry's protection, as I'm in SAD DENIAL (come on, who isn't? ;P). But Vivian's theory got me thinking. What if 'Pillar of Storge' is some sort of magical barrier *inside* Harry that keeps Tom Riddle out of Harry's heart/quintessence? As a protection and gift from Lily per se, as part of her ancient magic charm... But Harry's not fully grown, so this Pillar is perhaps... "semi-permeable" (yes, I study science, can you tell? ;P) So when Harry is feeling loved or righteous, then this Pillar will become a shield from TR, inhibiting the "love-phobic" essence from entering Harry's heart. And when Harry starts to lose himself in rage and frustation, the essense of TR will penetrate the Pillar, making HArry more vulnerable to danger, etc etc. Come to think of it, this sounds like the way Holy Spirit resides in a body/soul of Christian. Just like how Holy Spirit acts/takes over when one lets It, and sits quietly in despair otherwise. What's your take? Bren From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jun 26 20:36:24 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:36:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tickling the Ivory Keys... or not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102935 Actually, in the book, they entered a room which was like a living room or something and went upstairs to the bedroom with the grand bed in it. The furniture downstairs was a mess, which would make one assume that, in werewolf form, Remus probably couldn't get upstairs to smash up the bed. However, it was there for when he transformed back and probably needed a crash out of exhaustion. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 20:39:04 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:39:04 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102936 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Exactly what I thought from the very beginning! The theory I subscribe to (in my fanfiction, at least) is that the Evanses are Pureblood Squibs descended from Slytherin. Well, JKR shot down the last part by stating categorically that Lily was *not* descended from Salazar, but still... Maybe it's Petunia who disappointed the family by marrying a Muggle instead of another Squib. Maybe it was Petunia and not Lily who was estranged from her family. --JDR From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 20:48:21 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:48:21 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102937 >>> Lee wrote: > << about it...her words were about how proud her parents were to have a > witch in the family. Perhaps someone from either her mother's side > or her father's had been a wizard.>>> > > In response The Sergeant Majorette says: > > Exactly what I thought from the very beginning! The theory I > subscribe to (in my fanfiction, at least) is that the Evanses are > Pureblood Squibs descended from Slytherin. Well, JKR shot down the > last part by stating categorically that Lily was *not* descended from Salazar, but still... > > Maybe it's Petunia who disappointed the family by marrying a Muggle > instead of another Squib. Maybe it was Petunia and not Lily who was > estranged from her family. Bren now: Certainly I'm missing something. Aren't we repeatedly told that Lily was a Muggle-born? And that's one of the reasons Harry was marked by Voldemort -- because Harry was half-blood like himself? And if someone from either her mother's side or her father's had been a wizard then I would think it was *natural* that Lily had magical abilities. This doesn't fit with Petunia's "Oh, mom and dad were PROUD - we have a witch in our family!" (although this is Petunia's interpretation, so it might have been less drastic) Bren From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 20:55:56 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:55:56 -0000 Subject: book six title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102938 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says It may be a strong theme in the book, but it won't be the title: I'd bet money on it, if I had any. First of all, it sounds fanfic-y, using an obscure name for a philosophy that adults had to look up. If she wanted a name like that, she'd have made it up (like "Azkaban"). Second, has anybody noticed that the answers to the questions we beat to death before a book comes out are *always* a couple of orders of magnitude simpler than the conclusions we'd come to? If that "title-behind-the-door" thing turns out to be legit (that is, really on the site as opposed to merely fraudulent), it is probably still a hoax, albeit one perpetrated with JKR's implicit permission. --JDR From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 26 21:14:16 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:14:16 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102939 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says We are "repeatedly told" a lot of stuff that turns out not to be the case, whether it be red herrings, mistaken POV, or deliberate lies. I hear Petunia's complaint more like "*Finally* we manage to produce a witch! Won't everybody at the next Slytherin Squib family reunion be absolutely *green*!" My sense is that JKR shares my feeling that this "bloodline" thing is a non-issue, and we may see that magic is a perfectly natural human trait that everyone has to a greater or lesser degree and which responds to nurture, like the ability to dance or play basketball. --JDR (who is a sort of a Squib, as she is a tall Black woman who cannot play basketball and had to be taught to dance.) From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jun 26 21:21:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:21:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102940 Dicey Elfwrote:> > 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the 'stringy > Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name secret? (And > don't say it's that kid from > That-Which-Should-Be-Discussed-On-HPFGU-Movie, because we don't know > who *he* is, either.) Potioncat: Ok, to be honest, for a short time I thought the name might be Snape (sounds like young Snape) or some very surprising name like that which would have everyone asking "How dim is Harry?" But given that Zabini has been confirmed as a boy, I'm guessing this one is Nott. I came across a similar episode in GoF where something was interrupted and and then revealed later in the same book. Here I'm assuming weedy and stringy are the same. (Nott is weedy looking in the library.) We also know now that Nott's mother is dead. I wonder if he saw her die? From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 26 21:48:11 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:48:11 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > Chapter 21 Summary -- The Eye of the Snake > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? > imamommy: Because he's an insensitive wart. 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR *do* > this to me? imamommy: Censorship, I think. She knows there are those reading this who aren't ready for lessons in kissing. For the rest of us, we have imaginations. > 9. snip Why > does McGonagall so readily believe him? imamommy: Because the order has been waiting for something like this. > > 10. How can we readers tell that the snake vision is not just a dream? imamommy: I'm not sure I follow. Arthur's injuries seem proof enough. 12. 'Harry longed to bite the man ... but he must master the impulse > ... he had more important work to do ...' What work? If, as Harry suspected, VM was posessing the snake, he was probably trying to use it to find the prophecy. > > 13. Is this the first time Voldemort knows the Order is guarding the > Prophecy? imaommy: No. Sturgis Podmore > 14. What do we learn here about the limits of Invisibility Cloaks? imamommy: That they don't work if you fall asleep and let them fall off your body. Cheers! From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Jun 26 21:51:50 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:51:50 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102942 Steve, Asian_lovr2 wrote: >>>> The TWO Test classes could be counted as two OWLs for a variety of reasons. First, the simple fact that you sit two tests for some classes; one OWL credit for each test. Second, it could be related to the difficulty of the course. Example, college/university courses are rated in 'Credits'. A 2 credit course is easier than a 4 credit course; 4 is about average, and a 6 credit course would be very difficult and demanding. So, again, 'double' credit for the hardest demanding classes. Which, coincidentally, are the same classes you sit two test for. This would be the equivalent of the 'Double' O-Level/GCSE tests that Wisteria and others have mentioned.>>> Ali: Steve, I mean no dispespect here, but I think your applying a methodology which simply doesn't fit with the English education system on which O.W.L.s are based. If, JKR is using O'Levels as her blueprint which seems likley from all the evidence I've seen, then the idea for "double credits" doesn't wash. When kids in England/Wales get 2 O'Levels for a subject, it is not because of the complexity, it is because of the breadth of the subject - hence some examining boards test the sciences separately, and there are a possible total of 3 exams to be passed, whereas others treat "science" as one combined subject and award it 2 O'Levels. There is one fundamental difference here - to pass the combined Science O'Level, the student would need to achieve an acceptable level in all 3 disciplines, whereas where the subjects are treated separately, the student could fail one ir two of the disciplines, and still pass the remaining one. Normally 2 O'Levels are available for English - Literature and Language, they are treated like separate subjects though. O'Levels - and hence I would think O.W.L.s are meant to be the same level; the idea being that a similar standard has been achieved in each subject an O'Level has been awarded for. The only exception to the above, which might validate your theory is Maths. Some students do (or rather did, as I'm not sure if GCSE's work in this way), a Maths O'Level in the 4th year and then a Maths A/O'Level in the 5th year, which was more advanced. If JKR was going to apply that though, I would have expected to know in advance. Canon is silent on the matter. >>> I'm curious; a question for anyone who is familiar with O- Level/GCSE, are there any real world examples of classes where you must sit TWO test to receive full credit in the class? >>> In practice, *most* of the exams have at least 2 papers, and only one O'Level is awarded: the student must pass both parts to pass the exam. So for example, a French O'Level required an Oral exam, a comprehension and a further written paper. I had 3 History papers etc etc. So, yes, the O'Levels were made up of several papers. Steve: >>> In any event, I am personally convinced that it is one OWL for every test you sit. Potions, as an example, requires you to sit two test, each test represents an OWL credit.>>> Ali: LOL! Well, I'm personally convinced that Hermione *must* be younger than Harry, others are convinced that Snape is a vampire...Pippin has this rather alarming belief that Lupin is ESE (Please, nooooo)! >>>> Based on this belief, I estimated that Harry and Ron are taking 9 classes and are eligible for 13 possible OWL credits. Hermione is taking 10 classes and is eligible for 14 OWL credits. I just can't imagine Hermione getting less than 'Acceptable - the last passing grade' in anything, therefore I must assume she will get 14 credits. In my previous post, I estimated that Harry and Ron would get between 8 and 10 OWL credits.>>> Ali: Except for the fact that JKR has said that there are a maximum of 12 O.W.Ls. I pointed to the World Book Day question in which she was asked the maximum number of OWLs in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102841 Ali (This post discusses the similarities between O'Levels and O.W.Ls, and not the more recent GCSEs, which are slightly different in that course work now makes up a large element of the mark awarded. I apologise that an element of this post is OT, but it seemed necessary to flesh out the English system upon which O.W.L.s are based to show why I think Steve's assumptions are unlikley to be correct) From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 22:17:04 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:17:04 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > For those who don't know there is a strong rumor going around that the > name of the next book is 'Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storg?'. > > This has been posted on Mugglenet and at The Leaky Cauldron, it's > something someone claims to have discovered on JKR official website, > although it appears that it wasn't suppose to become public knowledge > until the first of July. > > For those who are not following along, 'Storge' is one of the four > philisophical concepts of love- > > Storge - love & loyalty within families > Philia - love & friendship between non-related people > Eros - romantic, erotic love > Agape - divine love > > In concept the 'pillar' or strength of family love is great, but the > previous titles have all referred to REAL objects, ...well, real in books. > > "Harry Potter and... > ... the Philosophers Stone" (an actual stone) > ... the Chamber of Secrets" (a real chamber in the castle) > ... the Prisoner of Azkaban" (a real escaped prisoner) > ... the Goblet of Fire" (a real cup related to the Tri-Wizards Tournement) > ... the Order of the Phoenix" (a real organized group of people) > > and now... > > ... the Pillar of Storge" [although not officially confirmed yet] > > Questions- > -Does anyone know of any real world monuments to the four concepts of > philisophical love? Are they by any chance 'pillars' or stone columns? > > -I can very easly see the 'Pillar of Storge' as a concept that applies > to the books and fits nicely into the story line. Family love could be > and is a very deep and complex theme in the books already. > > The problem I have is with the assumption that the book titles will be > consistent all the way through the series, which implies that the > 'Pillar of Storge' is a real object. So... what could it be and why > does it exist? > > ...a monument to love? > > ...a special magical object? > I guess my point is that I have no problem with the philisophical > concept of 'Pillar of Storge', but I'm at a loss for a way to turn it > into a real physical or magical object, or place. > > Just a thought. > > Steve/asian_lovr2 Maybe JKR has a real Pillar of Storge behind that door in the DOM. There have several people specutating that love is behind the door. And as someone posted today, what is stronger more fierce than the love of a parent? Just a thought... Fran From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 26 22:22:20 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:22:20 -0000 Subject: The Mirror of Erised (Was Re: HP and the Pillar of Storge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: Abigail: > We've seen this before, of course. How many times has a breathless > newbie (and some oldbies) logged on and announced to us that if > you reverse the text on the Mirror of Erised, you get... And yet > there's never an explanation of what Erised means because one > isn't necessary. In the Potterverse, Erised is simply a nonsense word. Geoff: I don't entirely see where your argument is coming from. Erised is not a nonsense word in the Potterverse. The inscription on the Mirror is a warning in reverse. Erised can be considered to be a 'reflection' of desire. As Dumbledore remarks: "It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of out hearts." (PS "The Mirror of Erised" p.157 UK edition) So, when we look into the mirror, we see the reflection of our desire. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 26 22:29:14 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:29:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s References: Message-ID: <000701c45bcd$02ea7680$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 102945 > > Ali > > > (This post discusses the similarities between O'Levels and O.W.Ls, > and not the more recent GCSEs, which are slightly different in that > course work now makes up a large element of the mark awarded. I > apologise that an element of this post is OT, but it seemed > necessary to flesh out the English system upon which O.W.L.s are > based to show why I think Steve's assumptions are unlikley to be > correct) > > K Actually I think the fact that they include coursework would *help* your arguement - instead of four tests/exams for French (oral, written, comprehension and listening) you have *five* different elements and yet still only get one grade. I think it is possible that some of the classes Harry and co take count as two OWLS simply because it's the only way Percy and whoever else it was could have got twelve. Maybe Potions for example is two because the theory of why ingredient x combines with ingredient y in such a way and what would happen if you added ingredient z is one thing and actually being able to make the potions is another, similarly you might be great at following the instructions to make the potions but have no clue how or why it works. Two related disciplines taught in one class but with two different OWLS. The closest i could come to explaining that in real life terms would be English Language and English Lit, usually taught in one class as English but two different subjects for exam purposes - however, I add the caveat that you sit two totally different exams for that not two English exams but one English Language and one English lit - whereas Harry sits a practical and a theory Potions test not tests in two subjects. (I'm not one hundred percent sure I expressed that well). The only real life exam I can think off with more than one grade is Science and that doesn't fit any of the Hogwarts models because we learnt Physics, Chemistry and Biology as three separate subjects, from three separate teachers, sat *one* exam and got two grades (which were always identical I believe - i.e. you got an AA or a BB or whatever, I don't know anyone who got an AB or something) K From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 22:50:17 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:50:17 -0000 Subject: Pillar of Storge (was Re: What if Snape is using the penseive like DD...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102946 Bren now: With the new "intel" on the title of Book 6, and Steve's suggestion that "Pillar of Storge" might be a real object... My first very- simple guess was that this is the form Sirius takes to come back for Harry's protection, as I'm in SAD DENIAL (come on, who isn't? ;P). But Vivian's theory got me thinking. What if 'Pillar of Storge' is some sort of magical barrier *inside* Harry that keeps Tom Riddle out of Harry's heart/quintessence? As a protection and gift from Lily per se, as part of her ancient magic charm... But Harry's not fully grown, so this Pillar is perhaps... "semi-permeable" (yes, I study science, can you tell? ;P) So when Harry is feeling loved or righteous, then this Pillar will become a shield from TR, inhibiting the "love-phobic" essence from entering Harry's heart. And when Harry starts to lose himself in rage and frustation, the essense of TR will penetrate the Pillar, making HArry more vulnerable to danger, etc etc. Come to think of it, this sounds like the way Holy Spirit resides in a body/soul of Christian. Just like how Holy Spirit acts/takes over when one lets It, and sits quietly in despair otherwise. vmonte responds: "The more clever Potter fans may recognize that the title relates directly to both 'Order of the Phoenix' and 'Chamber of Secrets.' I will be highly amused if one of you can guess exactly what's going on!" In CoS: We are introduced to Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort. In CoS Harry believes that T. M. Riddle "seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten." page 233-234 US paperback And in OOTP: Voldemort realizes the mental connection he has with Harry and tries to manipulate his thoughts. Hmmmm, I need to think about this... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 00:04:02 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:04:02 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102947 > 1. How is the following passage emblematic of the relationship between > Ron and the twins? > > 'Oi!' bellowed Ron, finally losing patience and sticking his head out > of the window, 'I am a prefect and if one more snowball hits this > window -- OUCH!' > > He withdrew his head sharply, his face covered in snow. > > 'It's Fred & George,' he said bitterly, slamming the window behind > him. 'Gits ...' Meri: It shows that the twins have zero respect for authority. And for anyone in charge at Hogwarts to think that Ron could have any influence over his older brothers was dreaming. > 2. Is it significant that the first Thestral appears between two yew > trees? Meri: I am fairly sure that the yew means death, so that was a nice bit of symbolism on JKR's part. > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? Meri: Well, Ron's Ron, isn't he. Harry's practically his brother, and Ron probably assumes that Harry knows that he's always welcome at the Burrow. And Hermione probably rolls her eyes because she had probably reminded Ron fifteen times to invite Harry to Christmas and he kept forgetting. > 7. Cho turns on the waterworks and the Cedric-talk as a way to bust a > move on Harry. What in sam hill is she thinking? Does Hermione explain > it correctly? Meri: Was I the only one who thought Cho was a little off her nut? I mean, if my boyfriend was murdered by a psycho wizard and I was still greiving his death, I would hope that I would have the presence of mind not to, A) try to get in to a relationship before I was fully recovered, and B) not start off said relationship with the boy who watched said boyfriend die. But JKR needed Harry to get over Cho, and her still attachment to Cedric was a good way to do it (though I wonder if she cries all the time around Roger Davies now, too?). Meri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 00:08:10 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:08:10 -0000 Subject: Help! Understanding the O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Steve, Asian_lovr2 wrote: > > >>>> The TWO Test classes could be counted as two OWLs for a variety > of reasons. > > First, the simple fact that you sit two tests for some classes; one > OWL credit for each test. > > Second, it could be related to the difficulty of the course. > Example, college/university courses are rated in 'Credits'. A 2 > credit course is easier than a 4 credit course; .... > > So, again, 'double' credit for the hardest demanding classes. > Which, coincidentally, are the same classes you sit two test for. > This would be the equivalent of the 'Double' O-Level/GCSE tests > that Wisteria and others have mentioned.>>> > Ali: > > Steve, I mean no dispespect here, but I think your applying a > methodology which simply doesn't fit with the English education > system on which O.W.L.s are based. If, JKR is using O'Levels as her > blueprint which seems likley from all the evidence I've seen, then > the idea for "double credits" doesn't wash. > > When kids in England/Wales get 2 O'Levels for a subject, it is not > because of the complexity, it is because of the breadth of the > subject - ...edited.... > Asian_lovr2/Steve now replies: First, thank you for all the detailed in-depth information about the British educations system and standarized testing; very valuable, especially since, being a life long American/USA, I can't tell a crumpet from an O-Level. That said, I must point out the I DON'T THINK we should be too literal. There is a difference between basing one thing on another, and modeling something after something else. In one case, one thing is an exact or very near parallel to the other; in the other case, one simply takes the framework of the first and uses it to build a completely new version. We can reasonably assume that OWLs and NEWTs are modeled after O-Levels and A-Levels, but I don't think it's equally safe to assume that they are identical in very way. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe they share a common framework, which, by extention, implies that they do not share common details. > Steve: > > >>> In any event, I am personally convinced that it is one OWL for > every test you sit. Potions, as an example, requires you to sit two > test, each test represents an OWL credit.>>> > > Ali: > > LOL! Well, I'm personally convinced that Hermione *must* be younger > than Harry, others are convinced that Snape is a vampire...Pippin > has this rather alarming belief that Lupin is ESE (Please, nooooo)! > Asian_lovr2/Steve: Well, that's why I said "...I am PERSONALLY convinced..."; trying not to imply that my opinion creates reality, and I do remain convinced. Others can say that I am wrong, but can they 'logically extend' the wizard world with a better explanation. Not with an explanation of why I am wrong, but an explanation of how the wizard world is reasonably and likely to work, and how one can reasonably and likely and functionally get 12 OWLs. In addition, I think I'm basing my personal opinion on a lot sounder foundation than the 'Snape=Vampire' theorists. (black capes and dark rooms do not a vampire make) > Steve: > >>>> Based on this belief, I estimated that Harry and Ron are taking > 9 classes and are eligible for 13 possible OWL credits. Hermione is >taking 10 classes and is eligible for 14 OWL credits....edited...>>> Asian_lovr2/Steve now adds: We are engaged in what I call 'Logical Extension of the Wizard World'. We have something that appears inconsistent. We can either accept that it is flat out wrong, or come up with (as much as possible) a logical and likely explanation, or more accurately, a logical and likely speculation. We know carrying a full load of 12 classes is extremely difficult; Hermione nearly 'cracked up' under the strain of it all and needs magical help to get her schedule to work. On the other hand, we know several people in the books who have gotten 12 OWLs; Bill, possibly Charlie, Percy, and Barty Crouch Jr (although Barty Sr. was slighly dillusional when he said that). So, my first assumption is that while 12 OWLs is certainly difficult, outstanding, and only achieved by the very best students, it is achieved none the less. Then we have the scheduling conflict. Is it really possible for someone to make themselves available for every test? Originally, I used Hermione's 3rd year test schedule as an example, but I realized that was flawed. All the OWL test take place in the Great Hall, and it doesn't appear that more than one subject is tested at a time. Although, I'm not sure if 5th year and 7th years would be tested in the same room at the same time. That could happen, but the available evidence doesn't seem to support it. The main point to remember when analysing the schedule is to remember the both 5th year and 7th year are testing. If separately tested, that could imply as many as 32 tests. At two per day, that implies /close to/ 16 days of testing. That's why this time, I ask, 'is it possible?' rather than imply that it is not possible to take all tests. If was assume it is possible, then we must look at various characters and ponder their courses, and what classes they would take, and which classes they would be able to test out of. Elective Classes: (5 total) Arithmancy - Ancient Runes - Muggle Studies - Care of Magical Creatures - Divination Percy suggests taking Muggle Studies and Divination. If he did not personally take these classes, would he have been likely to pass the test? I don't think so. If he DID take these classes, would he have been likely to be able to test out of the others without taking the class? I still don't think so. Maybe OWL testing is easier than the students (and we) are lead to believe. The severity of the test could be exaggerated to make the students study harder. Perhaps, it's easier to get an 'Acceptable' than we have been lead to believe. On the otherhand, I see very few students who could bluff their way through any of the elective classes other than 'Muggle Studies' which muggle kids could certainly bluff their way through. Also, keep in mind that Muggle Studies isn't muggle reality, it wizard's opinion of muggle reality. I suppose if a student had a passing interest in magical creatures they could bluff their way through 'Care of Magical Creatures'. But if they had the interest, why wouldn't they take the class? In addition, we must remember that these class choices were made near the end of second year. Not exactly a time in life when most students are strategically planning their futures. Similarly, Divination could be passed on general knoweldge. Much of Divination is learned skills and not psychic ability. Tea leaf reading, bird entrails, tarot cards, dream interpretation, astrology, etc... are all learned skills. Although, the OWL test involved Crystal Gazing which does require a degree of psychic ability. If you had the 'gift' and could be sure the test would require use of the 'gift', you might bluff your way through. Point, more available OWL points seems a more workable explanation than students getting passing scores in every available class catagory. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying I'm trying to come up with a logical and workable explanation. > > Ali: > > Except for the fact that JKR has said that there are a maximum of 12 > O.W.Ls. > > I pointed to the World Book Day question in which she was asked the > maximum number of OWLs in this post: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102841 > > Ali Asian_Lovr2/Steve: Well, she did say it, but she didn't say it with any real conviction. While she didn't specifically and directly express an element of doubt, the statement seemed to carry an implied element of doubt. Consequently, I lend only a limited amount of weight to it. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jun 27 00:32:56 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:32:56 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > For those who are not following along, 'Storge' is one of the four > philisophical concepts of love- > > Storge - love & loyalty within families > Philia - love & friendship between non-related people > Eros - romantic, erotic love > Agape - divine love > > In concept the 'pillar' or strength of family love is great, but the > previous titles have all referred to REAL objects, ...well, real in books. > I shall be interested to see if this rumour pans out - July is only a few days away, after all. I'm not a classicist, but I've come across the word 'storge' once before: in C.S. Lewis's "The Four Loves", which follows the pattern you've listed above, moving from the lowest to the highest form of love. As for "pillar", I guess there's nothing to prevent Rowling from just creating a physical pillar in her story and giving it this name; but when I hear the word my first automatic association is with "pillar of fire". They combine to give a sort of mystical impression, in my mind. Wanda From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 27 00:38:53 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:38:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake Message-ID: <1e1.240e44d1.2e0f711d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102950 In a message dated 6/26/04 4:03:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dicentra at xmission.com writes: (snip) >14. What do we learn here about the limits of Invisibility Cloaks?< The problem wasn't the invisibility cloak, it was the fact that Arthur had been sleeping under the cloak and it fell off allowing the snake to see him. The snake doesn't attack him until Arthur wakes up and raises his wand. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 00:55:34 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:55:34 -0000 Subject: Figg's cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "halli" wrote: > I wonder if anyone's noticed how smart Arabella Figg's cats are? She > put Mr Tibbles on the case to watch Mungdungus and make sure he > didn't take off, then reported to her when he did. Irrelevant? I > think not! In PoA, Sirus talks about how Crookshanks is one of the > more intelligent of its kind...not quoting here, sorry... I think > that maybe Crookshanks was sent to watch over Harry, or all three of > them (Ron and Hermione too) by Dumbledore, borrowed from Mrs Figg. > > Seeing as how Crookshanks didn't appear until 3rd year, when it was > obvious how close they were, and how Crookshanks always tried to > attack Scabbers, the one who would turn out to be against Harry and > everybody. Just a thought. The only part that doesn't make sense is > how the woman Hermione bought Crookshanks from said he'd been around > for ages...although that could just be because she (or possibly even > Crookshanks) knew he was supposed to go to someone close to Harry, > to keep watch over him... Sorry if it's a stupid theory, or if it's > already been discussed, but I had to try it out... > > -halli This has been sort of debated before about Kneazles. I think that Crookshanks is part Kneazle (FBAWTFT) Mrs. Figg's cats may very well also be part Kneazle as well as Mrs. Norris. It would make sense for a Squib to want an intelligent cat around. ~Mo From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 01:18:27 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:18:27 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102952 It occurred to me reading one of the Book 6 posts that we are seeing a lot of locked doors in books 1--5. I'm not sure if I remember them all, but feel free to add to the list if I have! SS-3rd floor hallway door to Fluffy's room--allows trio to realize that the Stone is being guarded at Hogwarts, introduces alohamora -Flying keys task--alohamora doesn't work, must use an actual key to open the door to continue through the puzzles COS-Most obviously the Chamber itself that can only be opened using parseltongue, another new way to open doors! POA-Secret Passageways-the humpback witch is opened with "dissendium" (sp?) the Whomping Willow is opened by pressing a knot on the tree GOF-Not sure about this one and my copy of the book is out on loan. Are there locked doors in GOF-the only one that comes to mind in the Prefects Bathroom used to solve Task 2. OOtP-MOM, Department of Mysteries, mysterious locked door, where wizards study something of great power. -DD's office Umbridge finds herself locked out of the headmaster's office -Umbridge's office-Harry breaks into locked office to speak to Sirius. In all most all of the books we also find Harry locked in his room or cupboard at some point and all of the common rooms are protected by password operated portraits The key to the outcome of all of the books, except GOF? involves unlocking or opening a door. Interesting the JKR decided to hide her secrets behind a locked door?? Lady McBeth From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 27 01:34:34 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:34:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102953 >From Brenda: | | Bren now: | | Certainly I'm missing something. Aren't we repeatedly told that Lily | was a Muggle-born? And that's one of the reasons Harry was marked by | Voldemort -- because Harry was half-blood like himself? | | And if someone from either her mother's side or her father's had been | a wizard then I would think it was *natural* that Lily had magical | abilities. This doesn't fit with Petunia's "Oh, mom and dad were | PROUD - we have a witch in our family!" (although this is Petunia's | interpretation, so it might have been less drastic) [Lee]: Well, remember that Ron of the pure-blood Weasleys mentions a muggle who's an accountant or some profession along those lines, but they don't talk about him. Let's flip-flop that to the muggle realms...somewhere maybe even a couple or so generations back might be a cousin or someone on one of the sides of the family who might have been a witch or wizard, but it's not generally talked about. I don't know about y'all, but our family was incredible for keeping secrets! To this day, the gaps in my knowledge about my father's side, in particular, are staggering! I can't even tell you where his side of the family comes from, save that my grandfather came from someplace in Germany and my grandmother from someplace in Austria. So, a family secret? Why not...quite possible. And, yes, Lilly and Petunia are, technically, muggle-born; their direct parents, possibly grandparents, are muggles; but somewhere, somehow, some knowledge existed. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 01:46:50 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040627014650.40649.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102954 Brenda wrote: >>> Steve wrote: > I can very easly see the 'Pillar of Storge' as a concept that applies to the books and fits nicely into the story line. Family love could be and is a very deep and complex theme in the books already. The problem I have is with the assumption that the book titles will be consistent all the way through the series, which implies that the 'Pillar of Storge' is a real object. So... what could it be and why does it exist? <<< Bren now: Hmm, I took the meaning of 'Pillar of Storge' to be both literal/physical and thematic/metaphorical. As for the thematic interpretation of 'Pillar of Storge', well I'm not a philosopher nor do I pretend to be, so I'm going to go with other posts and just nod along. As for 'Pillar of Storge' being a real object, the first thing that came to my mind was the Gargoyle door leading to DD's office, for some odd reason. But assuming that there is a consistency in the book titles, every new title object had been, well, NEW in each book. So my SIMPLE guess is that 'Pillar of Storge' is the form in which Sirius takes to come back for Harry's protection (can you spell SAD DENIAL? lol) Any more creative ideas, as usual ;P ?? Bren Here is a thought. We have heard that a graveyard scene may be introduced in one of the remaining books. Could this Pillar be in the graveyard? If so, would it represent an archway or statue? Or would this actually be a grave marker? And if a grave marker, whose? moonmyyst (even if we are totally off, this is a lot of fun to speculate!! You guys have some great ideas) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 01:51:04 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:51:04 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: <20040627014650.40649.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Brenda wrote: > >>> Steve wrote: > > I can very easly see the 'Pillar of Storge' as a concept that applies to the books and fits nicely into the story line. Family love could be and is a very deep and complex theme in the books already. The problem I have is with the assumption that the book titles will > be consistent all the way through the series, which implies that the 'Pillar of Storge' is a real object. So... what could it be and why does it exist? <<< > > > Bren now: > > Hmm, I took the meaning of 'Pillar of Storge' to be both > literal/physical and thematic/metaphorical. As for the thematic interpretation of 'Pillar of Storge', well I'm not a philosopher nor do I pretend to be, so I'm going to go with other posts and just nod along. > > As for 'Pillar of Storge' being a real object, the first thing that came to my mind was the Gargoyle door leading to DD's office, for some odd reason. But assuming that there is a consistency in the book titles, every new title object had been, well, NEW in each book. > > So my SIMPLE guess is that 'Pillar of Storge' is the form in which Sirius takes to come back for Harry's protection (can you spell SAD DENIAL? lol) > > Any more creative ideas, as usual ;P ?? > > Bren > > > > > Here is a thought. We have heard that a graveyard scene may be introduced in one of the remaining books. Could this Pillar be in the graveyard? If so, would it represent an archway or statue? Or would this actually be a grave marker? And if a grave marker, whose? > > moonmyyst (even if we are totally off, this is a lot of fun to speculate!! You guys have some great ideas) > Who knows if this is true, it sure is fun to speculate. I was thinking that maybe the Pillar might be related in some way to the arch with the veil in OoP? Remember what Luna said in OoP...I don't have my book handy, but she says, "It's not like we'll never see them again (her mom/Harry's parents). You heard them behind the veil." Maybe there's a connection? Alora :) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 02:03:46 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Locked Doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040627020346.61321.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102956 mcdee1980 wrote: It occurred to me reading one of the Book 6 posts that we are seeing a lot of locked doors in books 1--5. I'm not sure if I remember them all, but feel free to add to the list if I have! GOF-Not sure about this one and my copy of the book is out on loan. Are there locked doors in GOF-the only one that comes to mind in the Prefects Bathroom used to solve Task 2. In all most all of the books we also find Harry locked in his room or cupboard at some point and all of the common rooms are protected by password operated portraits The key to the outcome of all of the books, except GOF? involves unlocking or opening a door. Interesting the JKR decided to hide her secrets behind a locked door?? Lady McBeth In GOF, don't forget the locked trunk that Crouch!Moody kept the real Moody in. Interesting thought. Will the Pillar be behind a locked door or will it be a key? moonmyyst (did anyone on the list come close to what the Gobblet of Fire was before the book was released?) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 02:19:20 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Ron's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040627021920.2207.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102957 delwynmarch wrote: Jacqui wrote : > Have you seen any other posts where she suggests that Harry wont make it through as well??? Del replies : Sorry Jacqui, but JKR has made it quite clear that we must not take Harry's survival for granted. She's not saying he will die for sure, but she *is* saying he might. Her favourite answer to whatever question concerning Harry's future after Hogwarts goes usually along the line of "what makes you so sure he'll survive ?" Del If JKR were to say that Harry does not survive, then there would be those who would not read, saying, "what is the point." Then if she were to say that he does survive then why read? What would be the point? Personally, I do think that he will survive. There will be deaths, but I honestly believe that the trio come out of it. They will be scarred and marked and much worse for wear, but they will survive, as will we!! moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 01:15:08 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:15:08 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <002001c45a45$9f5a1220$2201a8c0@mami> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102958 > Mamibunny now: > > That is exactly what I think: Neville, in the end, is the boy who will defeat LV. I think that he was safe behind the appearence of weakness and magic incapacity, while Harry atracted all the attention during the many years they -- the two boys -- were growing up. Just in case, DD put Harry under protection if LV came back too soon -- and DD knew that he would come back someday. Both boys, during eleven years, were safe under charms: Harry at the Dursley?s house/companion, and Neville maybe under a memory or reduced-powers charm (provided by DD). I think it is possible that both boys will be in the last figth against LV -- together -- and Neville will have his abilities completly restored, so he can defeat LV. > > This is my theory and I?m reading OotP by now, looking for evidences to support it. I hope Harry doesn't die in this fight -- like JKR left possible since she never said he won't. Tina: Hi, I just joined and I would just like to say that although your theory is intriguing, and as much as I agree that Neville will definately come into his own, you are forgetting the final part of the prophesy: That the Dark Lord will mark the one who is the most threat to him as his equal. Even DD said to Harry that there is no doubt that it is he, Harry, who has the power to defeat Voldemort. But I do like the Neville theory, and I think he will definately be a power in his own right. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jun 27 04:07:02 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:07:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Locked Doors Message-ID: <63.2dd185f8.2e0fa1e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102959 In a message dated 6/26/04 9:19:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mcdee1980 at yahoo.com writes: >SS-3rd floor hallway door to Fluffy's room--allows trio to realize that the Stone is being guarded at Hogwarts, introduces alohamora -Flying keys task--alohamora doesn't work, must use an actual key to open the door to continue through the puzzles COS-Most obviously the Chamber itself that can only be opened using parseltongue, another new way to open doors! POA-Secret Passageways-the humpback witch is opened with "dissendium" (sp?) the Whomping Willow is opened by pressing a knot on the tree GOF-Not sure about this one and my copy of the book is out on loan. Are there locked doors in GOF-the only one that comes to mind in the Prefects Bathroom used to solve Task 2. OOtP-MOM, Department of Mysteries, mysterious locked door, where wizards study something of great power. -DD's office Umbridge finds herself locked out of the headmaster's office -Umbridge's office-Harry breaks into locked office to speak to Sirius. In all most all of the books we also find Harry locked in his room or cupboard at some point and all of the common rooms are protected by password operated portraits The key to the outcome of all of the books, except GOF? involves unlocking or opening a door. Interesting the JKR decided to hide her secrets behind a locked door?? Lady McBeth< Actually, maybe it is the key that Harry needs to confront Voldemort. In GOF it is the portkey that brings the plot forward and in each case he is either helped in solving that key or is introduced to the magic that is needed or in a few cases, just picking the lock (courtesy of Fred, George and Sirius). The portkey gets the Weasleys, Harry and Hermione to the QWC, later it brings Harry and Cedric to Voldemort. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 27 04:07:59 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:07:59 -0000 Subject: Cho's emotional baggage (was: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Meri: Was I the only one who thought Cho was a little off her nut? I > mean, if my boyfriend was murdered by a psycho wizard and I was > still greiving his death, I would hope that I would have the > presence of mind not to, A) try to get in to a relationship before I > was fully recovered, and B) not start off said relationship with the > boy who watched said boyfriend die. But JKR needed Harry to get over > Cho, and her still attachment to Cedric was a good way to do it > (though I wonder if she cries all the time around Roger Davies now, > too?). > > Meri imamommy: Don't worry, now she can cry on Micheal Corner's shoulder. IMO, Cho was possibly trying to get attention from Harry. I think she really liked him and was feeling all that Hermione suggested, but I think there's more to it. I think maybe, subconciously, she realized he has a "saving people thing", and after what she'd been through she wanted him to be her hero. I think Cho may have made a mistake that not too many people have made lately (notable exception: the Creevey's) But I think maybe she got it in her head that here was this guy who could defeat LV, who could handle teaching DADA to his fellow students, maybe he could be a source of strength and comfort to her. Problem? Oh, yeah. Because Harry doesn't exactly have a lot of time to be nurturing and compassionate right now. He's got a lot on his plate. Even in his relationships with Hermione, Ron, and Hagrid he doesn't have a lot of time and energy to devote right now to anything other thatn MoM, VM, DADA, etc. Plus, Cho needs to get a grip on her emotional baggage before she gets into another serious relationship with anyone. imamommy From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 03:34:58 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:34:58 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102961 The Sergeant Majorette says > > We are "repeatedly told" a lot of stuff that turns out not to be the > case, whether it be red herrings, mistaken POV, or deliberate lies. I > hear Petunia's complaint more like "*Finally* we manage to produce a > witch! Won't everybody at the next Slytherin Squib family reunion be > absolutely *green*!" > > My sense is that JKR shares my feeling that this "bloodline" thing is > a non-issue, and we may see that magic is a perfectly natural human > trait that everyone has to a greater or lesser degree and which > responds to nurture, like the ability to dance or play basketball. Hello! This is my first post. Hopefully it won't be my last. I don't believe JKR would make a non-issue out of the bloodline stuff, because that might remove the theme of racism without ever really settling it. I think Harry /has/ to be a halfblood for so much of the previous books for work; otherwise it might come off a bit hypocritical and contrived. My pet theory is that Petunia herself attended Hogwarts, but left early or something like that. I'd like to think that she and Lily both were Muggle-born with magical ability, but where Lily used hers, Petunia disguised and was ashamed of it (perhaps to fit in better with the Muggle world?) It would certainly explain a lot about Petunia's knowledge and attitude; maybe it would explain how she knew Dumbledore? A fairly farfetched theory, but then again I've seen a lot of posts about ESE!Lupin ... Katie From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 04:11:53 2004 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:11:53 -0000 Subject: Harry & Ron's fate In-Reply-To: <20040627021920.2207.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102962 I think it was in one of her interviews right after OOP came out, she said something positive about Harry's outcome, but turned around and basically said Ron may not make it. Kathy From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 03:08:08 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:08:08 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102963 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > > > For those who are not following along, 'Storge' is one of the four > > philisophical concepts of love- > > > > Storge - love & loyalty within families > > Philia - love & friendship between non-related people > > Eros - romantic, erotic love > > Agape - divine love > > Okay, if we look at these they relate to many different relationships in the book. I'm trying to brainstorm the possibilities. Storge -The Potters (in terms of Lily's sacrifice, grandparents, the Potters taking in Sirius etc.) -The Evans (Petunia and Lily, the parental relationships, the Dursleys and Harry) -The Weasleys (maybe this refers less to Harry then to Percy?, maybe all the W's aren't W's, Ginny's growing role, Harry and Hermione's place in the family, inter-Weasley "politics") - Hagrid, Grawp and Fridwulfa -Neville and his parents -Snape's background -The Black/Malfoy/Lestrange family issues Philia -Brotherly love of James/Remus/Sirius -Harry/Ron/Hermione -Trio relationships with Ginny, Neville, Luna -Sirius and Harry with some similar thread possibilities with Remus stepping in -Harry the Weasleys -The order of the phoenix Eros Obviously this depends on what ship you sail but a few -James and Lily (when did her feelings change, etc.) -Lily and any/every other adult male in the potterverse (Snape, Remus...) -Ron/Hermione Or Harry/Hermione -Harry and whoever those future kisses are coming from -Bill and Fleur Agape -Harry and the wizarding world (in terms of fame, sacrifice, fate etc.) -Dumbledore -the relationship between magic and love, we already know there is some strong magic involving love Beth Gaughan From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 27 04:59:04 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:59:04 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors In-Reply-To: <20040627020346.61321.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > mcdee1980 wrote: > It occurred to me reading one of the Book 6 posts that we are seeing a lot of locked doors in books 1--5. I'm not sure if I remember them all, but feel free to add to the list if I have! > > > Interesting thought. Will the Pillar be behind a locked door or will it be a key? > > moonmyyst (did anyone on the list come close to what the Gobblet of Fire was before the book was released?) imamommy: What about the locked door in the Dept. of Mysteries, the one Harry melts his knife on? We may have been way off on Goblet of Fire, but a lot of us had a shrewd idea about Order of the Phoenix. Just to throw out a crazy thought, what about the Pillar of Storge indicates a particular person? like a "pillar of the community". I hope JKR confirms or denies this rumor before we put too much thought into it. imamommy > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Jun 27 05:36:05 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 05:36:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > 1. How is the following passage emblematic of the relationship between > Ron and the twins? > > 'Oi!' bellowed Ron, finally losing patience and sticking his head out > of the window, 'I am a prefect and if one more snowball hits this > window -- OUCH!' > > He withdrew his head sharply, his face covered in snow. > > 'It's Fred & George,' he said bitterly, slamming the window behind > him. 'Gits ...' I've said this before, but I think Ron's entire outlook on life has been shaped by the dynamic between the twins and Percy. Fred and George operate outside the rulebook. They always have, and they have gotten away with it. And if Ron attempts to assert his authority over them, he will be ridiculed as a Percy clone. (In fact, they started the moment he got the badge.) I think Ron's entire outlook on life has been shaped by his fear of the wrath of Fred and George; in fact, I think his fear of spiders really reflects his fear of the twins. Ron is not unobservant and the effect of the twins' teasing on Percy cannot have gone unnoticed; moreover, Ron is more like Percy than he's willing to own up to, and he's adopted a mode of behavior where he won't have to deal with them. That's why he studiously ignores all of their misbehavior. Here's a link to an earlier, pre-OOP post on this subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38730 I think OOP's development of Ron was quite consistent with this analysis. It took an act of recognition from Dumbledore in making him prefect or else he would never have tried out for the Quidditch team. And I suspect that Dumbledore never expected that Ron would stand up to the twins (just as Dumbledore gave Hagrid a chance by giving him a teaching job, knowing he would probably fall flat on his face). > 3. If Harry saw Cedric die, why didn't he see the Thestrals at the end > of GoF? Good question! Sorry, I had to interject, because I think JKR's answer is a very unsatisfactory attempt to escape from a box she put herself into. A full year after she gave her answer, it still screams "Flint!" to me. > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? Because Hermione is fairly well obsessed with Harry's well-being, and it astounds her that Ron would forget such an important request. Ron, on the other hand, undoubtedly saw the invitation as so normal and expected that he forgot to mention it. That roll of Hermione's eyes was undoubtedly accompanied by an unspoken "Boys!" > 6. Is it significant that Luna points out the mistletoe to Harry? I had to run back to the books to reread this bit. I honestly don't think she had Harry in mind. In my mind, since Luna's interest in mistletoe is so different from Cho's, it appears to have been inserted to set up Cho's later attack. Cho's ignorance about Nargles also emphasizes how eccentric Luna is even in her own house. > 7. Cho turns on the waterworks and the Cedric-talk as a way to bust a > move on Harry. What in sam hill is she thinking? Does Hermione explain > it correctly? Hermione seems very much in mother mode. And I don't think it matters whether she was right (though she probably was), as the objective appears to have been to make sure Harry doesn't feel that the waterworks parade wasn't his fault. And, though you didn't ask, Hermione's also right in telling Ron he's exhibiting the emotional range of a teaspoon. > 9. Why is Harry so sure he wasn't just dreaming about the snake? Why > does McGonagall so readily believe him? > > 10. How can we readers tell that the snake vision is not just a dream? > Harry's dreams are primarily visual and aural. Here, JKR adds other senses to tell us that this is no dream. Harry can taste Arthur's scent. He feels the chill of the stone floor as he glides along it, and feels Arthur's ribs splinter beneath his jaw. He feels the warm gush of blood. I'm not certain whether McGonagall believed Arthur was injured, but she believed Harry saw what he saw, which was reason enough to summon Dumbledore. Debbie From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jun 27 05:40:42 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:40:42 -0400 Subject: Blurring of Bloodlines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102966 With all this talk of pure-blood, half-blood, muggle-born, etc., I'd like to direct attention to something very telling, at least to me, that Ron said in COS and I'm pulling it from the US Edition, Chapter 7: --Begin Quote-- "It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's ridiculous. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." --End Quote-- I would surmise this is probably the case, a fact which some in the WW would rather bury than admit. I say this from a gene-pool point of view. I recall seeing something on one of the educational programs about this group of people who were all color blind. For them, it was just the way things were. However, there had never been marriage or breeding outside that group. Genetics break down with a lot of in-breeding; one needs fresh stock, so to speak, to keep lines/groups going. This being the case, the possibility/probability exists that a truly pure-blood witch or wizard is indeed a lot more rare than even the pure-bloods, as I said above, would dare to speculate. Perhaps something started going a bit a rye in the WW, making it necessary to go outside their close-knit group and seek out muggles that had--uh--good potential, so to speak. I think one day, even the so-called pure-bloods are going to have to realize that if it were not for a "freshening up" from muggle blood, there might be few, if no, wizards left. So, taking this all into account, the muggle blood has entered the WW and, conversely, wizard blood has entered the muggle realms. I sincerely believe that, even with muggle blood, there's no such thing as an absolute purity of line; someone, somewhere, will have other traits brought in. So, yes, the bulk of the WW, IMO, has a couple ounces of "dirty" blood, and the muggle world has it's couple ounces of wizarding blood. Submitted for your approval....This is...The Potterverse! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 04:27:50 2004 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:27:50 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102967 Katie: >>My pet theory is that Petunia herself attended Hogwarts, but left > early or something like that. I'd like to think that she and Lily > both were Muggle-born with magical ability, but where Lily used > hers, Petunia disguised and was ashamed of it (perhaps to fit in > better with the Muggle world?) It would certainly explain a lot > about Petunia's knowledge and attitude; maybe it would explain how > she knew Dumbledore? One of my theories on Petunia is that she was marked as possibly being a witch, but maybe she didn't show as much magicical aptitude, whether by attitude or a genuine lack of skill. It could explain her extreme bitterness towards her sister, and if Petunia did indeed receive a letter, or at least a visitor regarding her abilities, and was then told that she could not attend Hogwarts, I can see very well where her anger comes from. There are two things I wonder about Petunia, aside from possible magical ability; I wonder if she really does love Lily under all that bitterness, and sometimes I wonder about how much Vernon has influenced her. I'm just guessing, but I think Petunia is the oldest. Is she? I don't think there's any canon to support that, is there? Either way, Vernon is a nasty person, and it makes me think it's possible he was one of the reasons for the rift between Lily and Petunia. Any thoughts? ~Krissy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 06:45:01 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 06:45:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > Chapter 21 Summary -- The Eye of the Snake > > ...edited... > > 1. How is the following passage emblematic of the relationship > between Ron and the twins? > > 'Oi!' bellowed Ron, finally losing patience and sticking his head > out of the window, 'I am a prefect and if one more snowball hits > this window -- OUCH!' > > He withdrew his head sharply, his face covered in snow. > > 'It's Fred & George,' he said bitterly, slamming the window behind > him. 'Gits ...' > asian_lovr: The first thing it shows me is that Ron is capable of fulfilling his Prefect role when the need arises. I have no problem with Ron having been appointed a Prefect, although I suspect I'm in a minority on that. As far as Fred and George, I think very few younger brothers, and especially a youngEST brother, would be able to exert any control over older brothers. Life just doesn't work the way; at least, it doesn't work that way for guys. > 2. Is it significant that the first Thestral appears between two yew > trees? > Asian_lovr2: Sorry, I missed that on my first three reads. I'm sure my eyes took it in, but my brain didn't register it. Great symbolism, thanks for the heads-up. > 3. If Harry saw Cedric die, why didn't he see the Thestrals at the > end of GoF? Just kidding!! See the OoP FAQ for the answer. > Asian_lovr2: What? You mean someone's already answered that question? > 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the 'stringy > Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name secret? > Asian_lovr2: I think JKR did it because she knew it would drive us crazy. Actually, I think she didn't name him because he is going to be significant in the next book (or two). The usual suspects are Blaise Zabini (sounds like a mafia Don) and Theodore Knott. And the suspected purpose of this character thus far are, he is the good Slytherin, and/or he is the person who changes houses. This character must have kept a very low profile relative to Harry. Harry has been in class with him for 5 years and still doesn't know his name. That strongly indicates that this mystery boy has never given Harry any grief. > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? > Asian_lovr2: He's a boy, ...'nuff said. Hermione roles her eye because she knows a typical boy when she sees one. > 6. Is it significant that Luna points out the mistletoe to Harry? > Asian_lovr2: Seriously, I think it is first to bring up the 'Nargles' and to point out the mistletoe. Cute how Harry jumps away from the mistletoe thinking Luna might have 'girly' ideas. So, it's just an informational setup for the actual Cho->Mistletoe->Nargles->KISS. > 7. Cho turns on the waterworks and the Cedric-talk as a way to bust > a move on Harry. What in sam hill is she thinking? Does Hermione > explain it correctly? > asian_lovr2: I know you are just being light-hearted, but I will say that I don't think the 'waterworks' are a calculated move on Cho's part. Boys that age, as we clearly see, are not very good at offering emotional sympathy and comfort. I think Hermione's explanation is right on the money. Cho without a doubt has liked Harry for a long time, but Harry's delay in asking her to the Ball, left an opening for Cedric to enter the picture. Let's face it, Cedric was probably a great guy from a girl's perspective; handsome, intelligent, sensitive, outgoing, polite. The kind of guy you can take home to Mom. So she certainly liked Cedric, but still has feelings for Harry; guilt, desire, need for emotional support and connection, etc, etc.... Hermione got it right. > 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR *do* > this to me? > asian_lovr2: I've notice something about JKR's writing style, a characteristic that I've always admired; it's extremely compact. If you go back to any book and count the pages that comprise one of your favorite scene, I think you will be surprised at how few pages it is. One of the most powerful effects of this compact style is that JKR gives us just enough information to stimulate our imaginations. Many authors practice, and many students are taught, the fine are of creating a mental picture as you write, consequently, every page is filled with long endless descriptions of the texture and color of the carpet, the detailed nature of the sunlight filtering in through the windows; every little detail is spelled out. Which means there is very little left for my imagination to do. Let's look at a couple examples. If you add up all the information in all the books describing Ron, I think you will find a very very sparse description. Just the basics; tall, gangly, big feet, and red hair. Now compare that sparse desciption with your mental image of Ron. Where did all those precise details and that vivid image come from? JKR gave you just enough to activate your imagination, which filled in the blanks in fine rich detail. I think you can apply this exercise to just about anything or anyone in the books. How detailed is JKR's description of Hogwarts? Not very. How detailed is her description of 12 Grimmauld Place? Not very. How detailed is her description of the robes people wear? Not very, yet we all have a very definite idea of what they are suppose to look like. Imagination is a wonderful thing, and it's a master storyteller who knows how to tap into it. > 9. Why is Harry so sure he wasn't just dreaming about the snake? Why > does McGonagall so readily believe him? > Asian_lovr2: Tough question, but it seems very true that Harry can distinguish between random normal dreams, and when he is having a 'living' dream. Perhaps it is based on a much stronger sense of physical awareness and physical presences. In the 'snake' dream, Harry very much feels the snakes body, and is very aware of himself and where he is at. Why did McGonagall believe him? I think it is because Dumbledore has told her about Harry's connection to Voldemort, and as others have pointed out, Dumbledore, and therefore those close to him, have been waiting for something like this to happen. They suspected that now that Voldemort was in his body again, the connection between Harry and Voldemort would grow stronger, and even reach the point where Voldemort became aware of Harry's presence in his mind. > 10. How can we readers tell that the snake vision is not just a > dream? > Asian_lovr2: Interesting question... I think we the reader can also see the vividness, and the full presence of Harry and his full awareness in the dreams. They are not a random jumble of thoughts; they play out in near realtime in rich detail. > 11. Snake!Harry can 'see objects around him shimmering in strange, > vibrant colours.' Why? > Asian_lovr2: I thought you would never ask. As a gross generalization, snake have heat sensing vision; in a sense, infra-red vision that allows them to see in near darkenss. The simmering strange vibrant colors are temperature gradients. > 12. 'Harry longed to bite the man ... but he must master the impulse > ... he had more important work to do ...' What work? > Asian_lovr2: Others have already answered this. Voldemort was possessing the snake in order to gain stealth entrance to the Ministry of Magic either to reconnoiter the place and get enough information to plan an effective attack, or possibly to steal the Prophecy orb himself. To grabbed the Prophecy, I suspect he would have had to exit the snakes body. Once he had grabbed the Orb, I have to wonder if he would be capable of holding on to it when he re-enter the snakes body? If he was unable to re-enter the snakes body, he would have lost his element of stealth, and would have stood a very strong chance of being spotted or captured. > 13. Is this the first time Voldemort knows the Order is guarding the > Prophecy? > Asian_lovr2: I believe the Order, or at least Hermione, suspect that Sturgis Podmore was under the Imperious Curse when he was captured. And, I believe by this time, Bode had already tried to get into the Dept of Mysteries and it's safe to assume he was also under the Imperious Curse. That's pretty strong evidence that Voldemort and the DE's knew where the Prophecy was. But, even with that evidence, it's not clear that V and the DE's knew that the Dept of Mysteries was under constant night guard. I think for sure after Mr. Weasley's attack, they knew that for a fact, but before that is debatable. > 14. What do we learn here about the limits of Invisibility Cloaks? > > ...edited... > > --Dicey Elf Asian_lovr2: Well, we know that the I-Cloak doesn't mask heat. Personally, I don't think the I-Cloak is perfect. I think there may be slight visual aberrations that let very very preceptive people like Dumbledore become aware that people are hiding there. In Hagrid's hut when the Minister of Magic visits to take Hagrid to Azkaban, it seems that Dumbledore is aware that Harry and friends are there. I personally don't believe the Dumbledore can see through the I-Cloak, but he is a very preceptive man, I think he picks up subtle clues that other less aware people miss. The movement of a foot on the floor. A bow or bend in the floor boards. Slight and very subtle visual distortions, etc.... Mostly speculation, but the snake certainly confirm that the I-Cloak can be circumvented by a good Infra-red detection charm. Just a thought... or two. Steve/asian_lovr2 From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 27 06:47:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 06:47:35 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Wanda: > I'm not a classicist, but I've come > across the word 'storge' once before: in C.S. Lewis's "The Four > Loves", which follows the pattern you've listed above, moving from > the lowest to the highest form of love. As for "pillar", I guess > there's nothing to prevent Rowling from just creating a physical > pillar in her story and giving it this name; but when I hear the > word my first automatic association is with "pillar of fire". They > combine to give a sort of mystical impression, in my mind. Geof: I've referred to CSL's book a couple of times in the past and storge was the one I couldn't rememeber! Curiously, I didn't latch on to the Biblical pillar of fire (and pillar of cloud) but the pillars of wisdom crossed my mind - T.E.Lawrence I think, but there were seven of those. Probably no connection. Geoff (rambling on Sunday moening after waking up late) From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 27 07:15:11 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:15:11 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DF009F.6036.106E5A0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102970 On 27 Jun 2004 at 6:45, Steve wrote: > asian_lovr: > > The first thing it shows me is that Ron is capable of fulfilling his > Prefect role when the need arises. I have no problem with Ron having > been appointed a Prefect, although I suspect I'm in a minority on that. I really can't see why. I think Harry, all things being equal, would have been the better choice - but the reason that didn't happen is explained. I can't see any reason though, why Ron couldn't discharge the duties appropriately. He seems capable to me. > As far as Fred and George, I think very few younger brothers, and > especially a youngEST brother, would be able to exert any control over > older brothers. Life just doesn't work the way; at least, it doesn't > work that way for guys. The fact they are his brothers is a potential problem - but really it's a problem that shouldn't arise. It seems likely that there are four prefects in the house senior to Ron and Hermione, including two are the same age as Fred and George. They should be dealing with Fred and George if needed - they shouldn't be expecting Ron and Hermione to do this (there's nothing wrong with Hermione deciding to, I might add - if she is willing and able to take on that responsibility, good for her - but it shouldn't be absolutely necessary that she does - and with Ron, the fact that they are his elder brothers means even more he should be supported). Personally I would guess that the more senior prefects have pretty much given up on controlling Fred and George under normal circumstances. That's fine - sometimes it isn't worth the trouble - but if that was the case, one of them should have told Ron and Hermione (-8 and it doesn't seem like that has happened. Ron's 'failure' to deal with his brothers, only becomes relevant if others more experienced than he have already failed. And in that situation... it's hard to blame him. Even Hermione only manages to exert any form of influence of them by resorting to a virtual nuclear deterrant in threatening to tell their mother! (Of course, I still have suspicions that Fred and George *are* prefects... just nobody knows it...) Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 08:01:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:01:32 -0000 Subject: The theory of conjuring and time travel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102971 How does the magic of conjuring works, and why are conjured objects temporary? This can be easily explained if we assume that it is possible to send OBJECTS back in time even without a time turner. Here is how it works: At 10:00 o'clock DD needs a chair. So he decides that at 11:00 he will send a chair one hour to the past. This works and the chair indeed appears at 10:00. At 11:00, when DD has finished with the chair, he carries out his former decision and sends the chair back in time one hour. The overall effect is a chair appearing at 10:00 and vanishing at 11:00. This looks like magic, and of course it IS magic, but I couldn't find anything wrong with the logic. A paradox emerges only if by 11:00 DD regrets his former decision and does NOT send the chair back in time. What happens then? I'm still working on it... Neri From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Jun 27 08:11:31 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:11:31 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Carolyn: I would just like to point out that this part of Steve's post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102930): Storge - love & loyalty within families Philia - love & friendship between non-related people Eros - romantic, erotic love Agape - divine love was in fact not his thoughts, but mine, and was taken without attribution from my post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102921 Three other posters have so far quoted Steve without realising this: "maneelyfh" in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102943 Wanda Sherratt in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102949 Beth Gaughan in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102963 Carolyn Just setting the record straight From AntaresCheryl at aol.com Sun Jun 27 05:20:43 2004 From: AntaresCheryl at aol.com (AntaresCheryl at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:20:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102973 <<<<>>> But you are thinking like an adult. Cho is a young adolescent. And we all know that the adolescent brain is not fully developed and adolescent girls don't usually think things through like you did. Cheryl H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marshbur at cs.unc.edu Sun Jun 27 05:50:10 2004 From: marshbur at cs.unc.edu (marshbur at cs.unc.edu) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 05:50:10 -0000 Subject: Pillar of Storge (was Re: What if Snape is using the penseive like DD...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102974 vmonte responds: "The more clever Potter fans may recognize that the title relates directly to both 'Order of the Phoenix' and 'Chamber of Secrets.' I will be highly amused if one of you can guess exactly what's going on!" In CoS: We are introduced to Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort. In CoS Harry believes that T. M. Riddle "seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten." page 233-234 US paperback And in OOTP: Voldemort realizes the mental connection he has with Harry and tries to manipulate his thoughts. David now: So, one of the things I've been thinking about for a while is how Harry will possibly defeat VM. It doesn't seem Harry is a magically powerful in a "traditional" sense. It also doesn't seem in keeping with the spirit of the books that Harry would use the killing curse, for instance, to get rid of VM. One might assume that Harry will use the power that VM has not to defeat VM. One might further assume that this is connected to the power Harry had, at the end of OotP, to drive VM out of his mind from his love of Sirius. Given that the title of book 6 is purportedly having to do with the love of a parent for a child, I'm lead to wonder if this parent-child love will be instrumental in VM's final defeat. It is of note that Tom Riddle/VM never experienced any parent-child love in his life (as far as we know). I can hypothesize a number of things related to this: - It seems possible that this Pillar of Storge will be a real object in the books, as others have speculated, and that it is somehow powered by parent-child love (which is, perhaps, that most ancient of magics). - It might be that there is some familial connection between Harry and Tom Riddle. Looking at a family tree, a link like this might appear to be a pillar. As other have noted, we have heard nothing of Harry's grandparents (and further back). It might be reasonable for Harry, upon finding out that VM was his only living relative to reach out in some way. Maybe some long-delayed rush of storge will cause VM to crack (one interpretation of the prophesy would be that Harry will destroy VM, not necessarily Tom Riddle). This also makes sense with Rowling's "Sirius had to die" comment, since Sirius' death further alienates Harry from any relations and makes all the more valuable to Harry a living, non-Dursley relative. Alternatively, could Tom Riddle be a relative on the Dursley side, somehow? (I believe this is my first wacky theory on HPfGU *bow*) cheers, -David From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 27 08:50:37 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:50:37 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <001801c45ae2$0bdc1d20$d84a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <40DF16FD.25269.15E4879@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 102975 On 25 Jun 2004 at 19:27, manawydan (Ffred) wrote: > 1. Does the fact that Muggleborns and aristocrats are side by side at the > same school foster the "Them and us" attitude among the "pure blood" > faction? Bearing in mind the size of Hogwarts compared to the size of the WW > and the fact that the number of Muggleborn children is pretty insignificant, > might this be so? > > 2. Conversely, does the fact that all Muggleborn children go to an elite > school of Witchcraft and Wizardry give them a higher relative profile in the > WW by virtue of the fact that they are more likely to end up in visible > positions as adults? Could this also feed anti-Muggleborn prejudice? This idea, raised, by Ffred got me thinking. The following is kind of, thinking aloud, so it may be a bit disjointed - I'm wrestling around the edges of an idea here, I'm not really editing it to make it clear yet. Now, it's my view that we are seeing a Wizarding World where there are significant variations in magical ability, and these impact whether or not a person is accepted for entry to Hogwarts. For the purpose of later discussion, I want to consider two ideas here. The idea of a MQ (or Magical Quotient), and the idea of a MP (or Magical Power). MQ would be similar to the original idea of the IQ score. As many people are probably aware IQ scores used to be calculated on a principle of 'Mental Age' divided by 'Chronological Age' multiplied by 100. So a 10 year old child with a Mental Age of 14 would have had an IQ of 14/10 X 10 = 140. (IQ scores are no longer calculated in this way - although many books still say they are, and for roughly 95% of the population scores calculated using the newer methods are very similar to those using the old). The major strength of the idea of an IQ score - and therefore an MQ score - is that theoretically it should stay fairly stable over a persons life. Someone with an MQ of 140 at age 5 should still have an MQ of 140 at age 10 - even though those two scores represent a considerable difference in power. So, for the sake of argument let's just assume that there is an MQ score in existence that works in a similar way to the IQ score (or rather the way IQ scores work on paper). The average MQ is 100, and roughly 95% of *relevant* people fall between MQ of 70 and 130. Also for the sake of argument, let's develop an MP score - a Magical Power score. This, unlike the MQ score is an absolute score - it does increase as you get older. *This* is the score relevant for Hogwarts entry. A persons 'mental age' tends to increase until around age chronological age 22 (according to the theories used in IQ tests). Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that 'Magical Power' increases until around the same age. Let us also assume that MP = Chronological Age x MQ (or conversely MQ=MP/Chronological Age) What this means is that an average 11 year old wizard or witch with an MQ of 100, will have an MP of 1100. I hope I'm clear so far. Now, I've expressed the view that I think Hogwarts is a fairly exclusive school with minimum standards for entry, above the mere requirement that a child be magical. I base this on two *main* pieces of evidence. (1) Neville's statement in Philosopher's Stone that his family were worried, even after he'd demonstrated some natural magical ability, that he was not magical enough to get into Hogwarts. (2) Less clear, but the fact that Hogwarts is apparently the only Wizarding school in Britain, and even if it has a thousand students, doesn't really seem large enough to support the education of all of Britain's Wizard children given the apparent size of the Wizard population as seen in the novels. These are just 2 points - but I don't really want to go into that issue in detail in this post. Suffice to say, I am basing this post on the assumption that Hogwarts is not open to all children in Britain merely because they have *basic* magical ability. More than just the basics is required. In terms of the MQ and MP ideas mentioned above, a certain MQ and MP score are required for Hogwarts entry. For the purposes of discussion, we need to set an 'entry score' for Hogwarts. Just for the purposes of this discussion, I've decided to assume that the MQ required to enter Hogwarts is a score of 111. This number is arbitrary, but I haven't just pulled it out of nowhere at all. For want of any other information, I've decided to use an MQ score at the 75th percentile simply because this was approximately the standard used in Britain during the days of widespread use of the 11+ test to determine who could go to a grammar school. If I'm assuming a minimum standard for access to a selective school of wizardry in Britain, it seems that using the standard that was once generally applied for entry to a selective school in the Muggle world is as good a starting point as any. [Obviously in the case of Muggle education, things were further complicated by the existence of independent schools]. What this score would mean is that the top 25% of 'wizard children' in Britain would qualify for Hogwarts entry - 1 in 4. That matches, historically, the number of people Muggle Britain considered needed a full high-standard secondary education for much of the twentieth century. But the standard has been set here primarily because I need to base my numbers on *something*. I could have made other choices. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to further assume that Neville's family were right to be worried about his chances of getting into Hogwarts. I'm going to assume he has an MP score of 112 - a shade over the minimum standard required. [Note - it must be stated here that MQ must be only part of the standard for success at Hogwarts. Conventional IQ - intelligence - obviously plays a part in a students success as well. But I think MQ is the determining factor for entry - otherwise its hard to explain Goyle]. Using the formula for MP above, this means that Nevilles MP at various ages would be as follows. Age MP 1 112 2 224 3 336 4 448 5 560 6 672 7 784 8 896 9 1008 10 1120 11 1232 12 1344 13 1456 14 1568 15 1680 16 1792 17 1904 18 2016 19 2128 20 2240 21 2352 22 2464 If an MQ of 111 is required to get into Hogwarts, that would mean an MP of 1221 on a child's eleventh birthday. Using the scores I've chosen, Neville qualifies but only just. Now, we know that Neville first showed a sign of spontaneous magical ability at the age of 8 (ie, sometime between his 8th and 9th birthday). And while this delighted his family, they still weren't sure that he would get into Hogwarts. Simply because it's a convenient number, let's assume that a person needs to have an MP around the 900 mark to show spontaneous magical talent. What this means is that maybe in the Wizarding World, families understand the idea of 'benchmark' standards. It may be understood that if a child shows signs of spontaneous magic before the age of 8, he's almost certain to get into Hogwarts - but if he doesn't show it until the age of 9, it's almost certainly too late. So Neville, first showing signs of spontaneous magic between age 8 and 9 is right on the borderline. On the plus side, the fact that he has done it before he is 9 means they know he is at least average - he's not a squib or anything close to it, and that has to be a relief. But it means he may not quite be Hogwarts standard - and they have to wait and see. Now using these numbers, what is a Squib? Perhaps a squib is somebody with inherent wizarding ability who will never reach that 900 level of MP. That would equate to a MQ of 41 or so - very rare indeed - only about 1 in 9,000 wizards would be 'true squibs'. There could also be 'near-squibs' - say adult wizards with an MP of between 901 and 1200 (just below the level of the minimum standard of a starting Hogwarts student - who we know can learn basic spells. That would mean an MQ of 55 or under - or about 1 in 400 wizards. This could be the group KwikSpell's basic courses are marketed at - with practice they can perhaps master simple spells - but it was never considered worthwhile teaching them? Now to the question of Muggle-borns - the idea that perhaps they do automatically get into Hogwarts, even if Wizards don't is an interesting one that certainly hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it's possible. But I don't think it's *necessary* and I'd like to use MQ to explain why it might not be. A fully powered adult Wizard (over 22 years of age) with the minimum entry standard for Hogwarts (MQ 111) would have a full adult MP of 2442. We have some examples of very young wizards using magic - two year old Kevin at the World Cup using Daddy's wand to inflate slugs for example. An average Wizard child of that age would have an MQ of 200. So perhaps 200 is the minimum ability needed to operate basic magical devices - wands included - so they do something. It may be that the child has little control over what it does. But they can do something. Now - perhaps exposure to magic makes it easier for spontaneous magic to occur. If a person has an MP score of 900 (minimum for spontaneous magic) perhaps that only expresses itself if they have had a chance to use basic magical devices or have lived in a magical environment. Neville lives in a Wizarding family. Harry did for the first year of his life. Both of these do have spontaneous incidents in their childhood. Perhaps, though, Muggle borns with only limited power don't. Perhaps if you're not in a magical environment with the opportunity to use magical items, you need a much higher MP to ever do spontaneous magic, let alone controlled magic. Perhaps you need an MP of 2500. In this case, the Wizarding World might well invite Muggle students with an MQ of 111 or higher to join Hogwarts (same as that of Wizarding students) because there is a realistic chance (and if their MQ is high enough, perhaps a near certainty) that by adulthood, they will start spontaneously doing magic, and they need to be trained. But there's no real need to invite those Muggleborns with a lower MQ to join because they are highly unlikely to ever develop magic (though a Muggle with an MQ of 50 - well below that of the Wizarding World - might still find themselves in trouble if they somehow got hold of a magical tea set... muggle- baiting!). And in certain rare cases, where a Muggle does have contact with magic and magic devices... >From what I've read, JKR has said someone in one of the books will show signs of magical ability later in life than normal. Perhaps Aunt Petunia has an MQ of 50 (so an adult MP of 1100) - and exposed to Harry's magical items, she suddenly becomes able to use a wand to do something... Speculation, of course. All of this is speculation, and the numbers are arbitrary - but I think better when I use numbers. So I do so. Other possible ideas... Perhaps with half-giants, things work differently. Perhaps a giant only matures magically till the age of 10, and a half giant to the age of 15 (instead of the 22, I've been using for humans). If Hagrid had an MQ of 115, then he'd qualify for Hogwarts at age 11 - but his adult MP would never be higher than 1725 - not at the 2400 level of a human Hogwarts graduate as an adult. Or Lupin... maybe being bitten by a werewolf gives a child an 'MQ' boost (after all it's a magical creature. Maybe Lupin's natural MQ was only 100 and being bitten upped it to 115 - meaning he qualified for Hogwarts, but in addition to the fact that he was regarded as dangerous, some might have felt he still really wasn't qualified... Just throwing some ideas around here in case anyone wants to disect all this. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 09:39:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:39:32 -0000 Subject: The Longbottom's secret message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102976 >Neri wrote: . Now, what if this message that Alice is > trying to tell Neville is the same information for which she was tortured? > > If so, it's not likely to be the whereabouts of Vapormort 14 years ago. This would be an > anticlimax. No, it should be something else. Something that was extremely important 14 years > ago and is still extremely important today. It is not the prophecy either. This will also be > an anticlimax. It should be something that DD doesn't know, maybe doesn't even guess. Bella > might have inkling what it is about (or why did she take the risk that landed her in Azkaban > for trying to pry it out of the Longbottoms) but she doesn't know the important part and she > probably believes it was erased with the rest of the Longbottom's minds and lost forever. > > So what is it? Any suggestions? Neri (answering his own post): OK, the members cleraly didn't like my idea very much, so I'll contribute some of my own wild speculations: WS1) Prophecy implications: I still think that for the Longbottoms' secret message to be just the prophecy would be an anticlimax. I mean, picture a large portion of Book 6 devoted to the trio and Neville solving the Droobles Bubble Gum puzzler and deciphering the message, and then it turns out to be the prophecy and Harry says: "oh yeah, DD told me about it last year". No, no, that wouldn't do at all. But what if the message is some unknown twist of the prophecy? For example, did Frank and Alice realize somehow that Neville, not Harry, was actually "the One"? Or that Neville is "the other", or "the hand", or has another connection with the Prophecy that DD doesn't know about? Or did Trelawney made a third prophecy when only Frank and Alice were present, and they realized it is about Neville? After all, just TWO prophecies are clearly not enough. There must be THREE prophecies ;-) . So Bella could have tortured the Longbottoms for the prophecy, but they were actually hiding more than that. And baby Neville was perhaps also in the house, but Frank and Alice had managed to put a disillusionment charm or something on him, so Bella et al couldn't find him. So the torture continues but Frank and Alice divulge nothing. Then young Barty shouts from the door: "The aurors are here!" and there isn't time for anything, so the frantic Bella hits Frank and Alice with a very powerful memory charm, and the hidden Neville gets hit with the skirts of it. WS2) Something's rotten in the Ministry: Frank and Alice were aurors, so they new something about what's going on in the Ministry. Had they perhaps got hint of some secret plan, maybe something in the DoM regarding the locked room, or the death room? Was it perhaps some way to destroy Voldy that went terribly wrong? The reason I suspect it is that in GoF Fudge was so anxious to get rid of Barty Jr., before Barty had time to tell about why Bella and he had tortured the Longbottoms. Was Fudge covering after the Ministry debacles? So, what if the DoM guys, under instructions from the Ministry, discovered the ancient death arch and brought it to the DoM as a mean of executing Voldy, or even Vapormort (after the GH incident). This would explain the spectators seats in the death room: there was going to be a trial. The Longbottoms as aurors were appointed for the job of bringing Vapormort to justice and guarding him until the execution. DD had strongly objected to this idea, of course, because he knew only Harry can vanquish Voldy, so Crouch Sr. and Fudge kept the operation secret from him. Frank and Alice had a problem of double loyalty: they were Order members but as aurors they were also sworn to the Ministry. Perhaps even the secrecy of the whole project was protected with the Fidelius, so they couldn't tell DD anyway. What went wrong? Or maybe Bella got the word from Rockwood and this is why the Longbottoms were attacked? Or maybe even she heard about it from Barty Jr., who got it from something that his father let slipped in front of him? Was Crouch Sr. the Secret Keeper for the project, and therefore knew for sure that his son is guilty, that only he could have told the DEs? Of course, if Crouch Sr. was indeed a Secret Keeper, then Barty Jr. couldn't have told Bella about the project, but he still could have told her that the Longbottoms know about it. So maybe Bella doesn't really know what was this all about. The Crouches are dead. The DoM people who brought the death arch don't know what it was for. This leaves only Fudge and the addle Frank and Alice who still know about it, and Fudge is terrified that this debacle will be discovered. All wild speculations of course, without much support in canon, but it still seems likely to me that the message Alice tries to pass to her son is the same message she was tortured for, and in this case it is something that was extremely important then and is still extremely important today. And it is something even DD doesn't know about. It might be the key for everything. Neri From joj at rochester.rr.com Sun Jun 27 11:12:10 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 07:12:10 -0400 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake - Cho Message-ID: <000801c45c37$977fac60$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 102977 > Meri: Was I the only one who thought Cho was a little off her nut? I > mean, if my boyfriend was murdered by a psycho wizard and I was > still grieving his death, I would hope that I would have the > presence of mind not to, A) try to get in to a relationship before I > was fully recovered, and B) not start off said relationship with the > boy who watched said boyfriend die. But JKR needed Harry to get over > Cho, and her still attachment to Cedric was a good way to do it > (though I wonder if she cries all the time around Roger Davies now, > too?). Joj:I think Cho wanted to have just one real conversation about Cedric and what Harry saw and experienced the night Cedric died. I don't think that's unreasonable. If Harry hadn't completely avoided that (and if Cho had been more upfront, with a better approach), they could have gotten this huge stumbling block out of the way, and maybe relaxed into something. Alas, they're kids. Probably most adults wouldn't have handled that correctly. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joj at rochester.rr.com Sun Jun 27 11:18:38 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 07:18:38 -0400 Subject: Ron in the Forbidden Forest Message-ID: <002901c45c38$7ef8e020$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 102978 Greetings! I'm re-reading SS right now and something is nagging at me. Why did JKR have Neville go into the Forbidden Forest instead of Ron? Why did she have Norbert bite Ron so that he was in the Hospital wing instead of getting detention with H/H/D? He was involved in this sub-plot in every other way. Why leave him out of the detention? The bite didn't play into the plot in any other way. JKR didn't want Ron in the forest. He did go in with Harry in CoS but twice Harry and Hermione went in without him in OotP. Why? There was no reason Ron couldn't have been in there all three of those times. It wouldn't have changed anything, having Ron there. Another thing is, JKR sent in two revisions from PoA and one was correcting a quote from Mr. Weasley, about how many times Ron had been in the forest. It's changed from twice to once. We know there are many flints that could be corrected. Why change this one? Do you think this could mean anything? Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 27 12:04:43 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:04:43 -0000 Subject: Giants/Half-Giants/Metamorphmagus/TMR's relatives/H&H siblings? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102979 Miss Petra Pan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102219 : << Given what we know of the history between the giants and humans (namely the WW), what might be reasons on the giants' part for and against siding with Dumbledore? What are the reasons for and against siding with Voldemort and his DEs? >> Given what Hagrid told us of his expedition to the giants, it seems likely that their main reason for assisting one or the other side in the wizards' war would be their expectation of acquiring useful magical artifacts as payment or loot. As someone posted, it seems they may not be intelligent enough to distinguish one 'side' from the other. However, if they have historical considerations, history will have taught them that populations of witches and wizards large enough to 'out-gun' the local giants is what took their homelands away and pushed them to this last, crowded, reservation. Therefore, the idea of reducing the wizarding population to a less threatening size, by killing a lot of them, as some of the Death Eaters intend, would seem to be in their self-interest. Certainly they would be repulsed by Dumbledore's side's intention of preventing many murders of wizarding folk. However, many listies say that the Death Eaters scorn non-human magical folk as much as Draco and Kreachur scorn werewolves and Draco scorns half-giants. If/when the giants figure out that the Dark side despises them, they will not want to help it. Their most reasonable reaction would be to pray that the two sides manage to wipe each other out completely, thus making the world safe for giants. Meri wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102446 : << Here's my question and I know it doesn't quite relate specifically to the chapter, but how on Earth did Hagrid's giantess mother and tiny little human father concieve a child? >> When this question is asked on list, the usual answer is "Engorgement Charms". I believe that magic is SO powerful that it even explains how being half-giant on the FATHER'S side is possible. << How did they meet and marry? Is there some wizarding singles network out there? >> There presumably is some version of a wizarding singles network -- maybe matchmakers, or public dances -- but it's hard to believe that giants, hags, goblins, house elves, centaurs, or even known werewolves, would be allowed to take part in it. In PoA, Harry saw a hag eating a plate of raw liver at The Leaky Cauldron. Maybe that, or the Hog's Head, is where Hagrid's parents met. It seems to me that The Three Broomsticks wouldn't make a giant feel welcome. Or maybe they met out in the wilderness. What I wonder is, what did they see in each other? << also shudders to think of how Fleur's veela gramdmere and human grandpere got together as well... >> Swan Lake? annunathradien wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102505 : << You can learn to be a metamorphmagus too after enough practice >> Excuse me, my memory is appallingly bad, can you point me to the canon that metamorphmagism can be learned? Phil Boswell wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102672 : << Makes you wonder which wizard family Tom Riddle's Mother belonged to, and whether there are more of *his* family to appear! >> On Rowling's website, in the RUMORS tabloid, one of the Feb 2004 items is: << Rumor: Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description. Exclusive: No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much StarWars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify -- this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. >> The important part to me in that JKR as herself, not just as authorial voice, says that Voldemort is the last descendent of Slytherin. That ensures that "last ancestor" was an error rather than a time travel hint. It also indicates that there are no living relatives of TMR's witch mother (except TMR), unless one thinks that saying "Voldemort" rather than "Riddle" hints at the "Voldemort is an immortal evil entity who possessed TMR when its previous host, Grindelwald, was destroyed" theory. McMax wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102858 : << Harry and Hermione can not be siblings. If they were then they couldn't be in the same year at Hogwarts. >> It is very possible that the cut-off date for birthdays for entering First Year at Hogwarts is September 1. In that case, Hermione, whose birthday is September 19, would have been born in 1979 and be almost 12 when she entered Hogwarts. Harry, born July 31, 1980, would have been one of the youngest kids in his year. November, December, January, February, April, May, June, July = 8 months ... Harry would only have to be a *tiny* bit premature for them to be siblings. Of course, I am certain they are not siblings, because Hermione has to be Muggle-born. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sun Jun 27 12:10:17 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:10:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? Message-ID: <157.388334e8.2e101329@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102980 Interesting debates. I have a few problems with this rumor being accurate, mostly to do with past reactions to HP titles. If 'Philosopher's Stone' was changed to 'Sorcerer's Stone' due to the publisher's belief that it wouldn't sell in the US, how much more poor reaction on their part will such an obscure term produce? Not to mention the -odd- possibilities inherent in translating the term. 'Pillar of Love'? Poor, with too much potential to be a double entente. Or is this only a possibility in English? Do other languages make a distinction? The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 12:21:41 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:21:41 -0000 Subject: Pillar of Storge (was Re: What if Snape is using the penseive like DD...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, marshbur at c... wrote: > vmonte responds: > > "The more clever Potter fans may recognize that > the title relates directly to both 'Order of the > Phoenix' and 'Chamber of Secrets.' I will be > highly amused if one of you can guess exactly > what's going on!" > > In CoS: We are introduced to Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort. In CoS Harry > believes that T. M. Riddle "seemed to mean something to him, almost > as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and > had half-forgotten." page 233-234 US paperback > > And in OOTP: Voldemort realizes the mental connection he has with > Harry and tries to manipulate his thoughts. > > > > David now: > > So, one of the things I've been thinking about for a while is how > Harry will possibly defeat VM. It doesn't seem Harry is a magically > powerful in a "traditional" sense. It also doesn't seem in keeping > with the spirit of the books that Harry would use the killing curse, > for instance, to get rid of VM. One might assume that Harry will use > the power that VM has not to defeat VM. One might further assume that > this is connected to the power Harry had, at the end of OotP, to drive > VM out of his mind from his love of Sirius. > It is of note that Tom Riddle/VM never experienced any parent-child > love in his life (as far as we know). > > I can hypothesize a number of things related to this: > > - It seems possible that this Pillar of Storge will be a real object > in the books, as others have speculated, and that it is somehow > powered by parent-child love (which is, perhaps, that most ancient of > magics). > > - It might be that there is some familial connection between Harry and > Tom Riddle. (I believe this is my first wacky theory on HPfGU *bow*) > > cheers, > -David If in fact this is the title of the book and Storge is a theme of the upcoming book, then my humble guess would be that it will show that lack of Storge made Tom Riddle into LV, and the abundance is what will be what Harry uses to defeat him. We know if protects him as he is the boy who lived, and DD said something to the effect that it was Lily's love that saved him. It was Harry's ability to love that drove LV from his body in OOTP. I do not in anyway think Harry is related to LV in any way through family. They are however members of the same club: orphans who lost parents at an early age. The story show's how one grew up with this great festering anger becuase he lacked the Storge love, and turned this anger into a great and evil power. Do you really think LV cares if a wizard is pure, half or muggleborn? He grabed the purebloods hatred of non-pure and used it to his advantage in order to instill hate, hate, hate. Then you have Harry, who survived and has great power because of this Storge love. Harry is very powerful, look at what he did before he knew he was a wizard. Also, Harry's ability to see the worth in everyone. He even came to understand Luna Lovegood. This could possibly tie into JKR's comment about the clues to books 6 and 7 in the POA movie. What comes to mind is Lupins comment to Harry about Lily's ability to see the good or whatever in people. And we all know Harry looks like James, and is so much like him but he has Lily's Eyes...... Hope this makes some sense fran From djrfdh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 13:19:17 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:19:17 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102982 And what could be more inviting than a locked door? Doesn't it just beg investigation? Use your "inner child" to view the possibilities! djrfdh....back From djrfdh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 13:30:07 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:30:07 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102983 In the OOTP, Neville does help Harry eventhough he is suffering from a charm that renders his speech useless in pronouncing properly... but I do not think it will be Neville who saves Harry and defeats LV...I do not think JKR would "rob" Harry of this ultimate "pay-back" for killing his parents and forcing on him a life of abuse and sheer torture! A life that has been robbed of everyone whom Harry held most precious. That would be,inside, the real defeat of Harry! From djrfdh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 13:45:49 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:45:49 -0000 Subject: Cho's emotional baggage (was: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102984 Then again, perhaps Cho is really someone else who's been "planted" by LV to gain Harry's trust and gain knowledge of Harry's plans....hey, I know that's really out there, but with JKR, one can't be too careful! If, on the other hand, Cho really is just a girl who's boyfriend was murdered, perhaps she is gravitating towards Harry in an attempt to pay him back for the grevious act she may, or may not, believe Harry himself committed. She is, afterall, a witch-in-training herself and we do not know the extent of her powers either! On the other hand, she may just be like any other teenage girl...."kissing-up" to the "captain" on the team! djrfdh....pick me! pick me! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 27 13:56:13 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:56:13 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > Valky replies: > Just to clarify first my 4th scenario and why I had suggested > Imperio context may be applicable, (NB my original post did invite > the reader to add context of their own) I hint at Imperio as a > context for this scenario as I imagine perhaps if LV was to somehow > find out the last part of the prophecy and read into it as I have > that the term *other* applies to Neville that he would have his > perfect weapon against his would be defeat in the boys. > > In more detail supposing the paragraph before had come to pass and > LV was aware that he or Harry must die by Nevilles hand, he could > devise a plan where he might Imperio one or both of the boys to duel > each other to the death. > > And just supposing that the term *other exclusively pertains to > Neville if Harry were to by some stroke of misfortune slay Neville. > Then the neither can live while the *other/Neville survives would be > fulfilled. And the surviving of the either would be freed of the > prophetic doom. Hmm. Nicely bangy. Neville kills Harry or vice versa while Imperio!ed. Not so confident of that, myself. The odds seem to be against it - Harry can shake off the curse and Neville would be better served by beating him to death with his Mimbulus than duel with wands. As to that Prophecy - a pox on't! I've brooded on that thing long and often - and got nowhere. More significantly no one else has managed to crack it, either. I'm beginning to suspect (no, not beginning, it's something that occured to me late last year) that the damn thing is there as a distraction - something for us to play with that'll keep us out of mischief while JKR stacks the deck elsewhere. My other theory is that it refers to past events, specifically Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" that can live is James and Lily and "while the other survives" refers to Harry. That way the Prophecy highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his parents had to die for it to take effect. I posted that last year too, mostly to the roar of thunderous indifference. Ah, well. 'Twas ever thus. Too clever for my own good, sometimes. Kneasy From djrfdh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 14:05:15 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:05:15 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <40DF16FD.25269.15E4879@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102986 So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything magical from age one to age eleven;( unless you count the odd things that seemed to "happen" whenever he got mad or upset!) Did he get in because he was the "notable" son of two of Hogwarts most well-known students? Or did Harry gain entry because he was "famous" for having survived a LV attack and therefore entitled to the best "defensive" education as compensation for losing his parents, that the WW could offer? (Wouldn't it have be a hoot if Harry had not possessed ANY magical talents? Guess the series wouldn't have been more than a book and a half!) djrfdh....go JKR! From djrfdh at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 14:13:01 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:13:01 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102987 I've also considered the theory of James and Lily being the ones who have to die for Harry to live....obviously they complied with that, though not to their choosing, I'm guessing! My biggest question to date is this....WHY did LV want to kill Harry? Was it to put an end to his own bloodline? (I suspect that Lily was something of a Slytherin who was "particularly gifted with charms"...and therefore, a real threat to LV's return to power.) From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 14:46:30 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:46:30 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102988 Dicentra: Why oh why does the kiss take place off-stage? Perhaps JKR is following the example of her much-admired Jane Austen. OK, so it wasn't the custom in Jane's day for unmarried persons (or married ones, for that matter) to display physical affection in public, but Jane goes to unusual lengths to prevent us seeing even the mildest dalliance between her heroes and heroines. We have to follow Mrs.Morland out of the room in Northanger Abbey and aren't allowed to see the reunion between Catherine and Henry. Worse, in Emma, we get fobbed off, in describing Mr. Knightley's proposal, with this very odd phrase: "What did she say? - Just what she ought, of course. A lady always does." I find it hard to forgive Jane for that. I don't really mind about missing a snog between two teenagers. Don't like Cho much anyway. Sylvia From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sun Jun 27 14:34:27 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:34:27 -0400 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627103106.009f1670@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102989 Interesting Pillars in other HP books. From COS CHAPTER SEVENTEEN: THE HEIR OF SLYTHERIN Harry was standing at the end of a very long, dimly lit chamber. Towering stone pillars entwined with more carved serpents rose to support a ceiling lost in darkness, casting long, black shadows through the odd, greenish gloom that filled the place. (later on...) flames erupted at the top of the nearest pillar. A crimson bird the size of a swan had appeared, piping its weird music to the vaulted ceiling. It had a glittering golden tail as long as a peacock's and gleaming golden talons, which were gripping a ragged bundle. From OOTP,CHAPTER ELEVEN THE SORTING HAT's NEW SONG Rattling and swaying, the carriages moved in convoy up the road. When they passed between the tall stone pillars topped with winged boars on either side of the gates to the school grounds, (later on...) "The Houses that, like pillars four, Had once held up our school, Now turned upon each other and, Divided, sought to rule." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 27 15:02:18 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Jun 2004 15:02:18 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1088348538.20.48578.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102990 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, June 27, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 27 15:05:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:05:53 -0000 Subject: Conspiracies Unlimited (was Re: Neville and the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > This is stretching it, but I knew I remembered Harry feeling like > that at some other point in the books. I found it. > > GoF US, p. 103: ...but then the music started and Harry stopped > worrying about them not being human- in fact, he stopped worrying > about anything at all. The Veela had started to dance, and Harry's > mind had gone completely and blissfully blank." > > Compare this to p. 231, when C/M puts him under the Imperious: "It > was the most wonderful feeling. Harry felt a floating sensation as > every thought and worry in his head was gently wiped away, leaving > nothing but a vague, untracable happiness." > Kneasy: Yeah - Jen points out the same thing in 102910:- >Dear Conspiracies Unlimited, >I think the first time was the veela chicks at the QWC: >"...Harry stopped worrying about them not being human--in fact, he >stoped worrying about anything at all....the veela had started to >dance and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank." >(GOF, US, chap. 8, p. 103) >You can make what you want of that; I find it a little ominous that >Veelas can make men feel like they're under the Imperius curse. >Doesn't bode well for ol' Bill Weasley does it? >Sincerely, >Jen Reese >Conspiracy theorist in training Well, it's obvious that Veelas have an effect, but seemingly only on the male section of the community, so whether it's a true Imperio! or an exaggeration of something a bit more mundane, I'm not sure. Males show an habitual and uncomplicated susceptibility to certain behaviours exhibited by the distaff side, resulting in a negation of critical and intellectual judgement. In other words they disengage their brains just when they shouldn't. It always causes trouble in the long run, but we never learn. And since the Veelas are (supposedly?) the ultimate practioners of the art of seduction the poor buggers don't stand a chance. Note that Harry's feelings after his first 'significant' encounter with Cho aren't all that different. Vague, euphoric - a lamb ready for the slaughter. And it's the youngsters, the callow youths (both at the stadium and in the woods afterwards) that are most affected. Except for the umpire - but he's getting the full blast at short range. But he's dragged away by medi-wizards that negate the spell by stuffing their fingers in their ears. (You see that, lads? You too can be free just by not listening. Now there's a simple recipe for a happy life.) Interestingly, Arthur seems the least affected - what does that tell you about Molly? All in all, I have my doubts as to the likelihood of the Veela chorus being the Third Imperio! - assuming that there was one. If someone ttwisted my arm, I'd plump for Godric's Hollow; but who placed it? The 'good' side, as an extra measure of protection against the influence of Voldy? Or the 'baddies' - to make him more susceptible? Ginger: > So now, O Great Master O' Conspiracy, we ponder: >snip> > > Will we see them joining the Dark side? > > Is Bill in danger? > > Could he be the unwitting traitor we have wondered about in previous > threads, which wonder if such a person might enter the storyline? > > If you sue a parsley farmer do they garnish his wages? > Kneasy: Possibly. But it takes thyme. I've marked Bill's card anyway. He'll fall victim to the Weasley cull, IMO. But I don't think it'll be Fleur that brings him down. She's only a quarter Veela, isn't she? And she didn't seem very impressive in the TWT for magical ability. She's probably quite happy with the situation: good-looking bloke, destined for better things professionally and she has enough charm and influence to be able to engage his attention and imitate the action of the limpet. Probably need a crow-bar to get her off. What would she gain by following Voldy? Can't see her as a Bella in training, can you? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jun 27 15:18:03 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:18:03 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" wrote: > I've also considered the theory of James and Lily being the ones who > have to die for Harry to live....obviously they complied with that, > though not to their choosing, I'm guessing! > > My biggest question to date is this....WHY did LV want to kill Harry? > Was it to put an end to his own bloodline? (I suspect that Lily was > something of a Slytherin who was "particularly gifted with > charms"...and therefore, a real threat to LV's return to power.) No, they probably didn't realise what the implications of the Prophecy (if they ever heard it, which I doubt) would mean, but I suspect that DD did. Which puts him in a very different light. It would explain why he's always apologising to Harry, for one thing. I'm not sure that Voldy did want to kill Harry, or not in the accepted meaning of the word - I think he wanted to possess him as he himself had been possessed in the Chamber. It's Lily's "Take me instead!" that adds credence to that theory. Well, it does for me, but what do I know? Kneasy From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 15:42:00 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:42:00 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge -- IS NOT THE TITLE In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627103106.009f1670@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102993 vmonte: There saying on mugglenet.com that the title of the book is probably a fake. They claim that American instead of British punctuation is used throughout the post. There are other comments as well... From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 16:58:01 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:58:01 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Apology & Explanation to Carolyn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Carolyn: > I would just like to point out that this part of Steve's post > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102930): > > Storge - love & loyalty within families > Philia - love & friendship between non-related people > Eros - romantic, erotic love > Agape - divine love > > was in fact not his thoughts, but mine, and was taken without > attribution from my post: > > > Three other posters have so far quoted Steve without realising this: > > "maneelyfh" in: ...edited.. > > Wanda Sherratt in: ...edited.. > > Beth Gaughan in: ...edited... > > Carolyn > Just setting the record straight Asian_lovr2: Carolyn is absolutely positively correct. I did cut-and-pasted the information from her post. And if I should have attributed it to her then I apologies for not doing so. From: "a_reader2003" Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:13 pm Subject: Philosophy for kids! (Re: book six title) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102921 Excellent and informative post. I can explain my actions, although I readily admit that explanation is by no means justification. I took that bit of information to be a set of definitions; a set of general facts, rather than original thought or personal opinion. Since we have a set of words and their common informal definitions, I took that as too general, common, and universal to require attribution. Others who continued to repost that data, included my orginal thought and personal opinion in their references. Again, I'm only explaining, not trying to justify or excuse my actions. I suppose the safest and most fair and friendly thing to have done would have been to give the attribution whether it was needed on not. In the future I will be more careful and more considerate. Sorry if this created any ill feelings. Steve/asian_lovr2 From estelblau2002 at yahoo.es Sun Jun 27 09:52:58 2004 From: estelblau2002 at yahoo.es (estel) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:52:58 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge- Philisophical or Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102995 Geoff Bannister wrote: > Curiously, I didn't latch on to the Biblical pillar of fire (and > pillar of cloud) but the pillars of wisdom crossed my mind - > T.E.Lawrence I think, but there were seven of those. Probably no > connection. (This is my 1st post ) Only a thought... There are going to be 7 books, right? I will put you a link about numerology I think you could find interesting connections. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/davehypno/numbers.html Ester From beckwith at zipworld.com.au Sun Jun 27 13:01:55 2004 From: beckwith at zipworld.com.au (F Nitschke) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:01:55 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Giants/Half-Giants/Metamorphmagus/TMR's relatives/H&H siblings? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040627224331.026e4860@mail.zip.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 102996 Much snippage. >annunathradien wrote in >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102505 : > ><< You can learn to be a metamorphmagus too after enough practice >> To which Catlady responded: >Excuse me, my memory is appallingly bad, can you point me to the canon >that metamorphmagism can be learned? Just re-reading OOP, so it's fresh in the memory. However, I don't think it's conclusive one way or the other. From OOP, 1st Oz edition, p52: 'Can you learn how to be a Metamorphmagus?' Harry asked her, straightening up, completely forgetting about packing. Tonks chuckled. 'Bet you wouldn't mind hiding that scar sometimes, eh?' Her eyes found the lightning-shaped scar on Harry's forehead. 'No, I wouldn't mind,' Harry mumbled, turning away. He did not like people staring at his scar. 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid,' said Tonks. 'Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand, or potions, to change their appearance. But we've got to get going, Harry,...' I thought the text rather ambiguous in that Tonks doesn't give a straight yes or no to Harry's question. Her comment that he would have to 'learn the hard way' does, to me, imply that this talent can be learned to some degree if it's not innate. But that's almost immediately contradicted by 'they're born, not made'. Mayhap it's 'not proven' until HP6 or beyond. I know there was discussion of this before... (paging Mr Bannister?) Fiona ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 13-Feb-2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 14:43:25 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:43:25 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end / Pureblood Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102997 djrfdh: > I do not think it will be Neville who saves Harry and defeats > LV...I do not think JKR would "rob" Harry of this ultimate > "pay-back" for killing his parents and forcing on him a life of > abuse and sheer torture! A life that has been robbed of everyone > whom Harry held most precious. That would be, inside, the real > defeat of Harry! I completely agree with that! This may have been addressed, and I just missed it, but I do have a question: A lot has been established about Harry being a half blood. But a half blood is someone that is born of a wizard and a muggle. That said, wouldn't Harry in fact be pureblood since both parents (regardless of their parentage) were a witch and a wizard? Tina From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 15:29:50 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Petunia or Dudley magical? (Re: The Opening Chapter of Book 6) In-Reply-To: <20040621205946.27759.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040627152950.49644.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 102998 Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Okay, I don't really think Petunia is a witch. But it > seems obvious to me that their parents either favored > Lily or Petunia thought they favored Lily (I'm personally > suspecting the former). griffin782002: Since I read the first chapter from the OotP I have the impression that Dudley could see the Dementors. I know it sounds ridicilous, but I have some arguments. When J.K.R. created the Dementors she had in her mind an illness called depresion. Because it happens to me, I can tell when you become really depressed, everything doesn't seem to matter, you feel completely empty. Well, we can be quite sure that he felt the changes in the surroundings. Muggles can't see them but can they see any changes around them, or they simply feel an internal chill or emptyness? ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 17:35:28 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:35:28 -0000 Subject: Untapped Magical Potential (was: Is education a right ...) In-Reply-To: <40DF16FD.25269.15E4879@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 102999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > Now, it's my view that we are seeing a Wizarding World where > there are significant variations in magical ability, and > these impact whether or not a person is accepted for entry > to Hogwarts. > > ,,,edited,,, > > Suffice to say, I am basing this post on the assumption that > Hogwarts is not open to all children in Britain merely > because they have *basic* magical ability. More than just > the basics is required. > > ...edited... > > What this score would mean is that the top 25% of 'wizard > children' in Britain would qualify for Hogwarts entry - 1 in > 4. That matches, historically, the number of people Muggle > Britain considered needed a full high-standard secondary > education for much of the twentieth century. > > ...edited... > > Just throwing some ideas around here in case anyone wants to > disect all this. > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately > Asian_lovr2: Excellent analysis as always. I'm OK with everything you said, afteral, you are playing my favorite game - Logical Extention of the Wizard World, but my curiousity runs strongly toward the things you didn't say. With only 1-in-4 magical people getting into Hogwarts, where do the other 3 go? That seems to be a tremendous amount of magical potential going to waste. Certainly we don't need to concern ourselves with those who are Squib and near-Squib; although, I don't believe Squibs are completely devoid of magical talent. But what about those who are just below the standard. Certainly over a lifetime, they will develope substantial magical potential, and it seem unwise not to mention dangerous, to have all the magical potential running around without any guidance or control. Just curious. Steve/asian_lovr2 From BrwNeil at aol.com Sun Jun 27 17:39:29 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:39:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville in the end / Pureblood Question Message-ID: <12a.44e4d9e0.2e106051@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103000 In a message dated 6/27/2004 1:30:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, garyfredogal at hotmail.com writes: A lot has been established about Harry being a half blood. But a half blood is someone that is born of a wizard and a muggle. That said, wouldn't Harry in fact be pureblood since both parents (regardless of their parentage) were a witch and a wizard? Tina In order to be considered a pureblood your ancestry must be made up of only wizards and witches and at no time tainted by muggle blood. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 17:55:30 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:55:30 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103001 the Leaky Cauldron www.the-leaky-cauldron.org has pointed out the reasons the title "leaked" for book six is most likely a hoax . . . font not used on JKR's page, dark mark doesn't cover the spoiler etc etc . . . gee fun while it lasted wasn't it? Lady McBeth From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 18:05:07 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:05:07 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge -- IS NOT THE TITLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > There saying on mugglenet.com that the title of the book is probably > a fake. > > They claim that American instead of British punctuation is used > throughout the post. > > There are other comments as well... Asain_lovr2: Ahh well... it was fun while it lasted. Although, I believe in this thread someone pointed out the the Title to OotP was released close to a year before the book. In interviews, JKR seems to indicate that she is enthusiastically writing the book and that it is coming along nicely. Still, I suspect that each book become more complicated in that it must resolve and be consistent with all past books, and must not 'muck up' anything that will appear in the last book. Far more difficult than writing a single stand-alone book. There, that should be enough to keep the Elves from getting on my case about a short post. Steve/asian_lovr2 From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 27 18:08:42 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:08:42 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: References: <40DF16FD.25269.15E4879@localhost> Message-ID: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103003 On 27 Jun 2004 at 14:05, djrfdh wrote: > So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical > wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything > magical from age one to age eleven;( unless you count the odd things > that seemed to "happen" whenever he got mad or upset!) Did he get in > because he was the "notable" son of two of Hogwarts most well-known > students? Or did Harry gain entry because he was "famous" for having > survived a LV attack and therefore entitled to the best "defensive" > education as compensation for losing his parents, that the WW could > offer? No, on the MQ/MP idea I've postulated he got in because his MP/MQ was high enough (I suspect it's unusually high) and because he did have exposure to magic as an infant which did trigger later spontaneous magic. What I have proposed is not an idea that requires a child to have constant contact with magic - just *some* - to trigger magical ability at MP 900. Harry had a solid year of it with his family. That's enough. The key to the idea is that if there is virtually none, it won't happen at that point - but Harry had at least some (and being surrounded by protective magic may also have been a factor). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 18:27:42 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:27:42 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end - Who kills in the end? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" wrote: > In the OOTP, Neville does help Harry eventhough he is suffering from > a charm that renders his speech useless in pronouncing properly... > but I do not think it will be Neville who saves Harry and defeats > LV...I do not think JKR would "rob" Harry of this ultimate > "pay-back" for killing his parents and forcing on him a life of > abuse and sheer torture! A life that has been robbed of everyone > whom Harry held most precious. That would be,inside, the real defeat > of Harry! Asian_lovr2: Vengence is mine, sayith the Lord. Which in turn means that vengene is not yours or Harry's. I can't say you are wrong, but I can say that I very much don't want to say that you are right. Would someone else defeating Lord-V really rob Harry of payback, or would it spare him the deep spiritual trama of knowing that no matter how evil the life may have been, he, Harry, was none-the-less responsible for taking that human life. That's a terrible cross to bear. We see near the end of the last book, that Harry's attitude isn't 'self-defense', Harry say that he will have to murder or be murdered. I believe that he even refers to himself as a murderer. Like many others, I am extremely uneasy by the thought of Harry killing Voldemort, especially if he accomplishes it using a Death Curse. In that light, it would ease my mind greatly if an alternate hero like Neville stepped in at the last minute and administered the coup de gr?ce (death blow). Although, I'm extremely fond of Neville, and I really don't want to wish that on him either. Perhaps there will be an end similar to what we see in many movies. The hero and anti-hero are in a life and death struggle. The hero is nearly defeated when he musters one last desperate surge of strength that causes the anti-hero to fall off a roof/cliff/volcano/etc. At the last second, the hero grabs the anti-hero and tries to save him, but, despite a Herculean effort, he can't hold on and the anti-hero plunges to his death. It's the classic way to save the hero from soiling his virtue. Unfortunately, given Lord-V's near immortality, falling off the roof will probably not work, and I'm guessing, falling into a volcano in Britain is not real high on the options list. This is the best I can come up with at the moment. They are back in the Dept of Mysteries-Death Chamber for the final battle. Due to 'circumstances', Voldemort is about to accidently fall through 'The Veil', in a sudden uncontrolled fit of heroism, Harry leaps forward and knock Lord-V out of the way. Lord-V is so overwhelmed by Harry's act of compassion, that he voluntees to walk through 'The Veil' thereby ending his reign of terror for all time. Dim the lights, lower the curtain, standing ovation, the end. I guess my point is that I just can't accept Harry simply killing Voldemort. Harry could have easily exacted vengeance on Wormtail/Peter but he granted him compassion and spared him. That's the Harry I know and believe in. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 18:44:06 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:44:06 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 27 Jun 2004 at 14:05, djrfdh wrote: > > > So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical > > wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything > > magical from age one to age eleven; ...edited... > Shaun: > > No, on the MQ/MP idea I've postulated he got in because his MP/MQ > was high enough (I suspect it's unusually high) and because he did > have exposure to magic as an infant which did trigger later > spontaneous magic. > > ...edited... > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately asain_lovr2: Seems like getting hit in the forehead with a Death Curse would certainly qualify as significant exposer to magic at a young age. I fact, it could hardly get more significant than that. Just a thought. steve/asian_lovr2 From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jun 27 19:05:57 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:05:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103006 The discussion about who will kill Voldemort, Harry or Neville, and if that will necessarily entail Harry's death as well have got me wondering about Voldemort and Death. I wonder, is it perhaps *impossible* for Voldemort to die? I remember in PS, when Hagrid is describing the aftermath of the GH confrontation, he says that some thought that Voldemort was dead, but HE figured that LV didn't have enough human left in him to die. I've always wondered why LV *didn't* die at Godric's Hollow. I think that Harry's survival and his survival were somehow linked - basically, they were both hit by an AK curse, and both survived when neither should have. (I have my own theory, but I won't describe it here, because it involves time travel and I understand that subject has become rather prickly to some people). Could "the power" that the Dark Lord knows not (according to the prophecy) be Death? Perhaps Harry has the power to die, which Voldemort is incapable of, at least under present circumstances. I can imagine the possibility that Harry's death might finally make it *possible* for Voldemort to die; he might even realize that he wants to die, like a vampire, instead of persisting forever in a kind of malignant immortality. But I don't hold out too much hope of Voldemort "seeing the light" in any way, and expect he'll probably have to be shoved into the next world, rather than going willingly. Wanda From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 27 19:11:32 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:11:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? References: <1088337893.7027.52767.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006c01c45c7a$8fbcd820$a34b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 103007 Shaun (muchly snipped) wrote: >Now, it's my view that we are seeing a Wizarding World where >there are significant variations in magical ability, and >these impact whether or not a person is accepted for entry >to Hogwarts. A great deal of agreement on my part for this idea and the related concepts. There's a lot of canon to support this, from people being talked about as especially powerful, the Kwikspell Course, evidence of magic being done at a very young age, and so on. >(1) Neville's statement in Philosopher's Stone that his >family were worried, even after he'd demonstrated some >natural magical ability, that he was not magical enough to >get into Hogwarts. > >(2) Less clear, but the fact that Hogwarts is apparently the >only Wizarding school in Britain, and even if it has a >thousand students, doesn't really seem large enough to >support the education of all of Britain's Wizard children >given the apparent size of the Wizard population as seen in >the novels. OK on these points also. >For the purposes of discussion, we need to set an 'entry >score' for Hogwarts. Just for the purposes of this >discussion, I've decided to assume that the MQ required to >enter Hogwarts is a score of 111. >[Note - it must be stated here that MQ must be only part of >the standard for success at Hogwarts. Conventional IQ - >intelligence - obviously plays a part in a students success >as well. But I think MQ is the determining factor for entry >- otherwise its hard to explain Goyle]. I did wonder about where Goyle would fall under this theory! >Just throwing some ideas around here in case anyone wants to >disect all this. Just one question comes to mind from me and that is: how would you see the standard being assessed? Would you see it as just being a function of the Quill, that it would automatically register someone's likely MQ/MP at age 11 when they were born, or something that someone's family would try to assess (eg by dropping Neville out of the window!) or by some other means? I couldn't see the WW having the resources to be able to administer tests to all the children... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sun Jun 27 19:47:18 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:47:18 -0400 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627154310.035da150@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103008 Wanda wrote: >The discussion about who will kill Voldemort, Harry or Neville, and >if that will necessarily entail Harry's death as well have got me >wondering about Voldemort and Death. I wonder, is it perhaps >*impossible* for Voldemort to die? I remember in PS, when Hagrid is >describing the aftermath of the GH confrontation, he says that some >thought that Voldemort was dead, but HE figured that LV didn't have >enough human left in him to die. I've always wondered why LV >*didn't* die at Godric's Hollow. I think that Harry's survival and >his survival were somehow linked - basically, they were both hit by >an AK curse, and both survived when neither should have. (I have my >own theory, but I won't describe it here, because it involves time >travel and I understand that subject has become rather prickly to >some people). Could "the power" that the Dark Lord knows not >(according to the prophecy) be Death? Perhaps Harry has the power >to die, which Voldemort is incapable of, at least under present >circumstances. I can imagine the possibility that Harry's death >might finally make it *possible* for Voldemort to die; he might even >realize that he wants to die, like a vampire, instead of persisting >forever in a kind of malignant immortality. But I don't hold out >too much hope of Voldemort "seeing the light" in any way, and expect >he'll probably have to be shoved into the next world, rather than >going willingly. > >Wanda >Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE THE DEATH EATERS LV says... But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 20:00:45 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:00:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627154310.035da150@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103009 >>> Wanda wrote: >> I wonder, is it perhaps *impossible* for Voldemort to die? I remember in PS, when Hagrid is describing the aftermath of the GH confrontation, he says that some thought that Voldemort was dead, but HE figured that LV didn't have enough human left in him to die. << Bren now: Maybe this is the power of LV that Dumbledore will never have?? That LV's virtually immortal? That's one creepy thought. What about the unicorn blood he took? Cursed half-life... >> I've always wondered why LV *didn't* die at Godric's Hollow. (I have my own theory, but I won't describe it here, because it involves time travel and I understand that subject has become rather prickly to some people). << OOO!! PLEASE please DO!! There are many theories even more far- fetched than time travel and they're still all welcomed here! >> Could "the power" that the Dark Lord knows not (according to the prophecy) be Death? Perhaps Harry has the power to die, which Voldemort is incapable of, at least under present circumstances. I can imagine the possibility that Harry's death might finally make it *possible* for Voldemort to die. << AFter all, there are some things worse than Death that LV doesn't know of. I wonder why he is so afraid of death. Perhaps Tom Riddle had to die for the Vapormort to take possession of him. LV can be mortal once the connection with HArry is broken? NICE, I like that. >>> Phil: Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE > THE DEATH EATERS > LV says... > But I was willing to > embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my > sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and > my old strength. <<< Bren now: What does he mean by his "old body"? (1) The old Tom Riddle body? or... (2) The old Voldemort before his downfall at GH? I'm leaning towards (1) myself, although I can't see why LV would willingly go back to his half-Muggle, mortal body that hadn't been contaminated by many dangerous Dark transformations. But if LV meant (2), how is his new body so different from the old VM one that he will want to "settle for" it? Questions, Questions... Bren From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 27 20:13:15 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:13:15 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: Lady McBeth: > It occurred to me reading one of the Book 6 posts that we are seeing > a lot of locked doors in books 1--5. I'm not sure if I remember them > all, but feel free to add to the list if I have! > GOF-Not sure about this one and my copy of the book is out on loan. > Are there locked doors in GOF-the only one that comes to mind in the > Prefects Bathroom used to solve Task 2. Geoff: Do you consider the kitchen door as coming into this category? 'She (Hermione) seized his arm again, pulled him in front of the picture of the giant fruit-bowl, stretched out her forefinger and tickled the huge green pear. It began to squirm,chuckling and suddenly turned into a large green door handle. Hermione seized it, pulled the door open and pushed Harry hard in the back, forcing him inside.' (GOF "The House-Elf Liberation Front" p.327 UK edition) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 20:32:21 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:32:21 -0000 Subject: Conspiracies Unlimited (was Re: Neville and the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103011 >>> Jenn wrote: > >Dear Conspiracies Unlimited, > > >I think the first time was the veela chicks at the QWC: > > >"...Harry stopped worrying about them not being human--in fact, he > >stoped worrying about anything at all....the veela had started to > >dance and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank." > >(GOF, US, chap. 8, p. 103) > > >You can make what you want of that; I find it a little ominous that > >Veelas can make men feel like they're under the Imperius curse. > >Doesn't bode well for ol' Bill Weasley does it? <<< Bren now: Hmm, the whole encounter with Veela reminded me of the first time a young lad experiences/views an X-rated film or such. Females will be less effected and even offended in general, more experienced/mature males will know how to handle himself, but not "the youngsters, the callow youths" (Kneasy's words). > >Sincerely, > >Jen Reese > >Conspiracy theorist in training Bren: OOOH, can I join too????? >>> Kneasy: But he [the umpire] is dragged away by medi-wizards that negate the spell by stuffing their fingers in their ears. (You see that, lads? You too can be free just by not listening. Now there's a simple recipe for a happy life.) <<< B: WAHAHAHAHAHA. THat definitely makes my day!!! What a nice *helpful* advice you're giving out to young lads -- 'Just shut your ears'. Hahahahaha. >>> Kneasy: I've marked Bill's card anyway. He'll fall victim to the Weasley cull, IMO. <<< B: But why Bill out of all the Weasley kids? Because he's the oldest? I thought that position was given to Percy already... And no, Fleur isn't even close to being clever and seductive as Bella, I don't think. More like blonde-bimbo in Muggle slangs (sorry if I offended anyone, I don't actually like blonde jokes). Bella has the older-evil-woman thing going on. Stifler's mom anyone? Haha. Bren, still laughing from Kneasy's advice From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 20:42:32 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP and the Pillar of Storge -- IS NOT THE TITLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040627204232.4053.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103012 vmonte wrote: vmonte: There saying on mugglenet.com that the title of the book is probably a fake. They claim that American instead of British punctuation is used throughout the post. There are other comments as well... Ah, well.... it was fun while it lasted!! Those darn Americans.... (wait, I am an american.... drat!!!) moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 27 20:47:01 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:47:01 -0000 Subject: Prophecy / Metamorphmagic / MQ / Pureblood / LV-HP-survival-death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103013 Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102985 : << My other theory is that [the Prophecy] refers to past events, specifically Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" that can live is James and Lily and "while the other survives" refers to Harry. That way the Prophecy highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his parents had to die for it to take effect. I posted that last year too, mostly to the roar of thunderous indifference. Ah, well. 'Twas ever thus. Too clever for my own good, sometimes. >> Keep posting your theories and eventually persistence will penetrate our thick skulls. Does Dumbledore know that the Prophecy has already been fulfilled, making it all the better a red herring to distract bad guys and good guys from his real plan? If yes, then how is he so certain that Harry is the only effective weapon against LV? If no -- Dumbledore at *that* level of lack of wisdom and knowledge makes me shudder for the good guys. Fiona wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102996 : << 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid,' said Tonks. 'Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand, or potions, to change their appearance. But we've got to get going, Harry,...' I thought the text rather ambiguous in that Tonks doesn't give a straight yes or no to Harry's question. Her comment that he would have to 'learn the hard way' does, to me, imply that this talent can be learned to some degree if it's not innate. But that's almost immediately contradicted by 'they're born, not made'. Mayhap it's 'not proven' until HP6 or beyond. >> Oh. I took Tonks statement to mean "You'll have to learn the hard way of changing your appearance, with a wand, or potions, instead of the easy way that Metamorphmagi are born with." Steve/asian_lovr2 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102999 : << With only 1-in-4 magical people getting into Hogwarts, where do the other 3 go? That seems to be a tremendous amount of magical potential going to waste. Certainly we don't need to concern ourselves with those who are Squib and near-Squib; although, I don't believe Squibs are completely devoid of magical talent. But what about those who are just below the standard. Certainly over a lifetime, they will develope substantial magical potential, and it seem unwise not to mention dangerous, to have all the magical potential running around without any guidance or control. >> Shaun hypothesized that the ones in contact with the wizarding world will be taught by their parents and via apprenticeship and maybe via Kwik-Spel, while the ones not in contact with wizards won't manifest magical powers. Going upthread to Shaun's post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102975 he said: << Now - perhaps exposure to magic makes it easier forcspontaneous magic to occur. If a person has an MP score of 900 (minimum for spontaneous magic) perhaps that only expresses itself if they have had a chance to use basic magical devices or have lived in a magical environment. >> BrwNeil wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103000 : << In order to be considered a pureblood your ancestry must be made up of only wizards and witches and at no time tainted by muggle blood. >> Which is why Steven/asian_lovr2 made up the term "fullblood" for the ones who can' *prove* that they're "pureblood". In CoS, Ernie Macmillan said: "I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's". Which, while raising the question of what he/JKR means by 'warlock', suggests that Nine Generations is the definition of "pureblood". OoP showed the Black Family Tapestry, going back to the fifteenth century (1400s), so I immediately wondered whether the reason it stopped there is that the very next ancestor back was a Muggle. How many generations fit in roughly 500 years depend on what age the people tend to start child-bearing: it could range from 25 generations if each of Sirius's ancestors was born when its parents were 20, to 5 generations if each was born when its parents were 100. Wanda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103006 : << I wonder, is it perhaps *impossible* for Voldemort to die? I remember in PS, when Hagrid is describing the aftermath of the GH confrontation, he says that some thought that Voldemort was dead, but HE figured that LV didn't have enough human left in him to die. I've always wondered why LV *didn't* die at Godric's Hollow. >> I've always felt confident that LV didn't *die* at Godric's Hollow because some of his attempts at immortality had worked. To theorists who believe that Voldemort is a separate immortal entity which possesses different people down the ages, then Vapormort was simply Voldemort dispossessed of his host and his host, TMR, was simply dead as normal. << Perhaps Harry has the power to die, which Voldemort is incapable of, at least under present circumstances. >> Phil Vlasek pointed out in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103008 that canon is that LV is not immortal at the moment. << I think that Harry's survival and his survival were somehow linked - basically, they were both hit by an AK curse, and both survived when neither should have. (snip) I can imagine the possibility that Harry's death might finally make it *possible* for Voldemort to die >> I think that the link between LV's survival and HP's survival was forged in the re-embodiment ceremony in GoF, not in the Godric's Hollow attack. Because of the infamous gleam in DD's eye: "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my ... my mother left in me ... he'd have it, too. And he was right ... he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." To me, triumph gleamed because LV had foolishly made himself vulnerable to HP; depression replaced it when DD recalled that the method of LV's vulnerability is that LV and HP will die only at the same time, i.e. death of this child for whom he feels parental affection. My book 7 prediction is that HP shows his heroism by continuing to fight LV despite knowing that it means his own death. I imagine them burning up in a fireball together, or falling deep into the lake under Hogwarts... this was somehow made possible only Neville, who fought his way through LV's guards and leapt into the fight so it was two against one ... and died, too, of course. I'm irritated at the stupid Prophecy for saying "for neither can live while the other survives" instead of "for neither can DIE while the other survives". Bren wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103009 : << >>> Phil: Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE > THE DEATH EATERS > LV says... > But I was willing to > embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my > sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and > my old strength. <<< Bren now: What does he mean by his "old body"? (1) The old Tom Riddle body? or... (2) The old Voldemort before his downfall at GH? I'm leaning towards (1) myself, although I can't see why LV would willingly go back to his half-Muggle, mortal body that hadn't been contaminated by many dangerous Dark transformations. But if LV meant (2), how is his new body so different from the old VM one that he will want to "settle for" it? >> He must mean his old LV body from before his downfall, because that is what he got: hairless scaly noseless red-eyed snake-man. Snakes are traditional symbols of immortality (because they cast their skins and look new and shiny again), so it makes sense that some of his experiments in magical immortality (maybe not the ones that worked) would make him look like a snake. I took it for granted that "settle for my old body back again, and my old strength" meant he would settle for two out three, body & strength without immortality. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 21:20:27 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:20:27 -0000 Subject: Prophecy / Metamorphmagic / MQ / Pureblood / LV-HP-survival-death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103014 >>> Phil Vlasek wrote: I think that Harry's survival and his survival were somehow linked - basically, they were both hit by an AK curse, and both survived when neither should have >>> In response, Catlady wrote: I think that the link between LV's survival and HP's survival was forged in the re-embodiment ceremony in GoF, not in the Godric's Hollow attack. Because of the infamous gleam in DD's eye: To me, triumph gleamed because LV had foolishly made himself vulnerable to HP; depression replaced it when DD recalled that the method of LV's vulnerability is that LV and HP will die only at the same time, i.e. death of this child for whom he feels parental affection. Bren now: Hmm. I agree with Phil on this, actually. Harry always felt his scar burning when VM was near (PS/SS, CoS), and I think the dream Harry had about Frank Bryce in the beginning of GoF was the first more obvious sign of Harry-Voldemort connection. They always shared this connection, since the night of GH, but Voldemort was too weak for Harry to detect him before. Voldemort starts gaining strength after PoA, and Harry could feel the connection getting stronger as well. VM coming back made the connection more complete, IMO. Although I must wonder, why wasn't VM aware of this connection sooner? Surely VM could see Harry when he was mad, just like Harry could VM?? >>> Catlady: My book 7 prediction is that HP shows his heroism by continuing to fight LV despite knowing that it means his own death. I imagine them burning up in a fireball together, or falling deep into the lake under Hogwarts... this was somehow made possible only Neville, who fought his way through LV's guards and leapt into the fight so it was two against one ... and died, too, of course. Bren: Hee, I like this idea. I vote for fireball since VM was reborn in cauldron, perhaps that's where he can "re-die". But I want Neville to live, with his parents back to normal. On that note, I wonder just how one can be "tortured" into insanity permanently?!?! >>> I took it for granted that "settle for my old body back again, and my old strength" meant he would settle for two out three, body & strength <<< Oh right, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up for me!! Bren > without immortality. From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 21:23:55 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:23:55 -0000 Subject: HP and the Pillar of Storge -- IS NOT THE TITLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > There saying on mugglenet.com that the title of the book is probably > a fake. > > They claim that American instead of British punctuation is used > throughout the post. > > There are other comments as well... I haven't read what's being said on mugglenet but after reading the reported text I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. It doesn't sound like anything JKR would write to me--American spelling/punctuation aside. And I think the fact that someone bothered to *type* "erm" is a huge joke on all the fandom hanging on her every word--and non-word. In the unlikely event it *is* true I hope someone convinces her to change it. What an awful title. Melpomene From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 21:28:08 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:28:08 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: > > > > > > AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum > > > > > wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? > > > (snip> > > > > > Fran wrote: > > > Also remeber with Droobles Best Blowing Gum it is supposed to > > > produce blue bubbles that last for days......so, where are the > > > bubbles? > > > Something is up with the gum is what I suspect and may be what is > > > keeping the Longbottoms from recovering. > > > > > > Tho I am not keen on the poisoning theory Fran, you make an > excellent > > point when you say "Where are the Bubbles?" > > Hell Yeah ? Where are they ? > > Valky > > The absence of the bubbles, imho, indicates that the gum has been > tampered with. Someone posted recently that Gran was possibly keeping > Neville from living up to his full potential by lowering his self > confidence. It would be very painful for her to lose another family > member. Could she possibly be the one responsible for keeping Frank > and Alice from reovering in an attempt to keep them alive? > > Another theory that has been brought up is that there is a message in > all the gum wrappers.... > > Fran I know that this has been talked about quite a bit but I dont recall this coming up out of it. I was just reading some stuff and came across this from mugglenet... Drooble's Best Blowing Gum is an anagram of Gold bribe below St. Mungos Jacqui From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 22:02:27 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:02:27 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end / Pureblood Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103017 Tina wrote: > > This may have been addressed, and I just missed it, but I do have a > question: > > A lot has been established about Harry being a half blood. But a > half blood is someone that is born of a wizard and a muggle. That > said, wouldn't Harry in fact be pureblood since both parents > (regardless of their parentage) were a witch and a wizard? > Tina, I've seen this question addressed on a number of sites. The prevailing theory is that Harry is a half-blood, and would be considered so by the wizarding world (which seems slightly racist, no?). I believe JKR has said Harry is a half-blood, but I don't have an interview link for that info. It's similar to the law in the old American South, where a "Drop" of african-american blood made you black, no matter what you looked like. Therefore, mulattoes, quadroons, and octoroons were all pushed towards the bottom of society. A wealthy white slave owner who was the father of one of his slave's children would not acknowledge that child, and the child would be raised a slave, although he/she was half white. Obviously, HP differs in that the "racial qualifications" aren't as completely strict, and there seem to be rather high positions m*dbloods or halfbloods can attain. But, at least for many generations, Harry's descendents will probably be considered half- blood. (I wonder, if, perhaps you went back to the founding of Hogwarts - were the Weasleys or any other other fmily half-blood or m*dblood at that point? Something so long ago that people have forgotten?) ~Luckie From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sun Jun 27 22:07:41 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:07:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville in the end - Who kills in the end? Message-ID: <1a1.2633610f.2e109f2d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103018 In a message dated 6/27/2004 2:30:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > Perhaps there will be an end similar to what we see in many movies. > The hero and anti-hero are in a life and death struggle. The hero is > nearly defeated when he musters one last desperate surge of strength > that causes the anti-hero to fall off a roof/cliff/volcano/etc. At the > last second, the hero grabs the anti-hero and tries to save him, but, > despite a Herculean effort, he can't hold on and the anti-hero plunges > to his death. It's the classic way to save the hero from soiling his > virtue. > > Unfortunately, given Lord-V's near immortality, falling off the roof > will probably not work, and I'm guessing, falling into a volcano in > Britain is not real high on the options list. > > This is the best I can come up with at the moment. They are back in > the Dept of Mysteries-Death Chamber for the final battle. Due to > 'circumstances', Voldemort is about to accidently fall through 'The > Veil', in a sudden uncontrolled fit of heroism, Harry leaps forward > and knock Lord-V out of the way. Lord-V is so overwhelmed by Harry's > act of compassion, that he voluntees to walk through 'The Veil' > thereby ending his reign of terror for all time. FWIW, I ran both these options past my ten year old daughter. "Yeah, Right. No way, that's dumb" was her reaction. I'm afraid I agree with her. I don't think I'll ever understand the 'we can't kill him, even though he's a charismatic mass murderer who can lead others into doing the same' attitude. LV has to go, and if I were there, I'd be right behind Harry, lending him whatever help he needs. I'm afraid the closest I can come to any of your scenarios is LV Vs Harry in the Death Chamber and LV falling through the veil when he tries to shove Harry through ... or, better yet, all LV's victims, summoned by Harry's struggles, reaching through, grabbing him and dragging him in after them. LV gets his just deserts, his victims get their revenge, all is well. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 27 22:22:01 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:22:01 -0000 Subject: Ron in the Forbidden Forest In-Reply-To: <002901c45c38$7ef8e020$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103019 Joj: Why did she have Norbert bite Ron so that he was in the Hospital wing instead of getting detention with H/H/D? JKR didn't want Ron in the forest. He did go in with Harry in CoS but twice Harry and Hermione went in without him in OotP. Why? There was no reason Ron couldn't have been in there all three of those times. It wouldn't have changed anything, having Ron there. Bookworm: I split up your quotes for emphasis. I think your statement ("JKR didn't want Ron in the forest.") is the correct one and that it *would* have changed things if he had been there. Let's look at what happened those three times: PS/SS: Harry, Hermione and Hagrid meet centaurs Firenze, Bane and Ronan. Bane and Ronan do their "Mars is bright tonight" act. Draco and Neville have taken a different path, so are not present during this meeting. (Ch. 15) CoS: Harry and Ron see the spiders and the flying car. OoP: Harry, Hermione and Umbridge meet the centaurs Magorian, Bane, Ronan, et. al. (Ch. 33) We know that Ron has met Firenze (in Divination class, Ch. 27), so it's not centaurs in general that JKR didn't want Ron to meet ? it was Bane and/or Ronan. There is also a hint that the centaurs (or at least Firenze) know about Ron. After the Divination class, Firenze asks Harry to for a word with him. Firenze told Ron that he could stay, then he asked Harry "...you are a friend of Hagrid's, are you not?" This could be just a way of speaking, but he seems to be trying to confirm that Harry really is Hagrid's friend. But if he is trying to get a secret message to Hagrid, why let Ron stay in the room? (OoP, Ch.27) Does he/the centaurs know something about Ron that we haven't learned yet? What will happen when Ron meets Bane and Ronan? My guess is it has something to do with his potential talent as a seer. Ravenclaw Bookworm From allisonblair at gmail.com Sun Jun 27 19:14:45 2004 From: allisonblair at gmail.com (Allison Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:14:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Longbottom's secret message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103020 Neri: > WS1) I mean, picture a > large portion of Book 6 devoted > to the trio and Neville solving the > Droobles Bubble Gum puzzler and > deciphering the message, > and then it turns out to be the > prophecy and Harry says: "oh > yeah, DD told me about it last > year". No, no, that wouldn't do at all. Allisonblair: To me, this fits the pattern JK has set up in the books so far. Harry and co. have found a "bad guy" (or at least an evil plan of some sort) in every book, and they go to great legnths to foil him, but in every book they have some detail terribly wrong. In PS/SS, they are convinced that Snape is going after the Stone. In order to find out why anyone would want the Stone in the first place, the trio puts in hours of research, and then proceed to risk their lives in order to protect it from Snape. However, it turns out that Snape has been protecting the Stone and that Quirrell has been trying to steal it. Quirrell was their Defense teacher, and while he was rather inept they didn't suspect him. In fact, they thought that Quirrell was keeping Snape from the Stone. In CoS, they are convinced that Draco is opening the Chamber of Secrets. They brew a difficult, illegal potion in order to prove Draco's involvement, but it turns out that Ginny had been opening it (admittedly not of her own free will, but opening it nonetheless). They didn't suspect Ginny for a moment. In PoA, Harry thinks Sirius has betrayed his parents and is coming to kill him. He hates Sirius and is almost willing to kill him in the Shrieking Shack, but it turns out that Sirius was always loyal and did everything within his power to protect Harry. The real traitor had spent the greater part of three years sleeping in the same room as Harry and no one suspected Scabbers was a man, much less had been friends with Harry's parents. In GoF, no one suspected that Moody was really Crouch and was planning to deliver Harry to Voldemort. In OotP, no one suspected that Harry's visions weren't actually happening. Throughout the books, Harry has spent a great deal of time laboring under some illusion, and every single time, he's gotten some critical detail wrong. It would fit perfectly with this that the Trio and Neville would spend time with the wrappers, only to discover that they've been following a red herring. - Allisonblair, who has just made her first post and is only slightly intimidated. From allisonblair at gmail.com Sun Jun 27 19:54:00 2004 From: allisonblair at gmail.com (Allison Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:54:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron in the Forbidden Forest In-Reply-To: <002901c45c38$7ef8e020$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> References: <002901c45c38$7ef8e020$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103021 Joj: > Why did JKR have Neville go into > the Forbidden Forest instead of > Ron? [...] JKR didn't want Ron in > the forest. Since Ron didn't go into the Forest in PS/SS, he went in for the first time in CoS. They already had instructions to "follow the spiders", which is Ron's worst fear, and going somewhere new, and known to be dangerous, would only make this fear worse. JKR didn't let Ron into the Forest in PS/SS so that he could show his bravery and loyalty in CoS. - Allisonblair From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Sun Jun 27 20:10:56 2004 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:10:56 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] names and new adoption/orphanage ? Message-ID: <20040627201056.81F4D23C04@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103022 > > Potioncat: > > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > > given names? > > Sen: > It happens. A close friend of mine's daughter in law gave both her > son & daughter 4 names. My husband and I are using 3 names plus our > last name for our children. Reason being, the third name (2nd middle > name as we call it) are going to be our fathers names which are both > unisex. A 4 name pattern (2 middle) is also very common in my family and has been for so long no one is sure when or why it started. It is worth noting however that this pattern started over 5 generations ago while the family was still in Scotland (we're mostly in US now) and that we have a long family history of adoption. Since most people do not use a 4 name pattern the children being adopted have all had 3 names and keep their birth surname as their 3rd name (or 2nd middle) thereby keeping their own history while also gaining ours. I know my great-great-grandmother was adopted and that adoption within the clan was common in Scotland before the British so this may have been the actual reason it was started. Not just to bring it back to HP but is there any indication of how orphans are adopted within the wizarding community. I know Tom Riddle was in an orphanage 50yrs ago but are there specifically WW orphanages? Did Riddle just fell throught the cracks because of his muggle father? I can't imagine the WW would want to risk a known magical child to be adopted into a muggle family who was completely ignorant that the WW existed. thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 20:14:25 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040627201425.86893.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103023 mcdee1980 wrote: the Leaky Cauldron www.the-leaky-cauldron.org has pointed out the reasons the title "leaked" for book six is most likely a hoax . . . font not used on JKR's page, dark mark doesn't cover the spoiler etc etc . . . gee fun while it lasted wasn't it? Lady McBeth griffin782002 All these things sound suspicious. By I have only one thing to say to those eager to suppose it or not: patience is a virtue, and that's what I am doing. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 23:00:01 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:00:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103024 >>> Phil: Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE > THE DEATH EATERS > LV says... > But I was willing to > embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my > sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and > my old strength. <<< Bren replied to Phil's comment: What does he mean by his "old body"? (1) The old Tom Riddle body? or... (2) The old Voldemort before his downfall at GH? I'm leaning towards (1) myself, although I can't see why LV would willingly go back to his half-Muggle, mortal body that hadn't been contaminated by many dangerous Dark transformations. But if LV meant (2), how is his new body so different from the old VM one that he will want to "settle for" it? Snow replies: It wouldn't be Voldemort's old body because He said in GOF pg.653 "Aaah pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost but still, I was alive." So Voldemort's old body died at Godric's Hollow. Voldemort can't actually have that particular body back in which his Slytherin mother's blood resided in, so he created a new body that wasn't yet protected from immortality like his old one. But why would Voldemort want this new body that is made up of his muggle father's bones, Harry's mother's sacrificial-blood and a coward's sacrificial skin or didn't he think this could cause him a problem? (possibly the gleam in DD's eye) This new body may appear to look like his old one because he used the bone of his father but its nothing more than a container for his Vapormort spirit. Maybe his old body was what saved him at GH because the body itself had immortal properties but the new body that he settled for may be a whole lot less than just having the properties of immortality because of its ingredients. This thought is unrelated sorry but all this talk about Voldemort's body made me think of something Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies " If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is missing? From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 23:10:24 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:10:24 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end - Who kills in the end? In-Reply-To: <1a1.2633610f.2e109f2d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at A... wrote: > In a message dated 6/27/2004 2:30:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, > asian_lovr2 at y... writes: > > > .... At the last second, the hero grabs the anti-hero and tries to > save him, but, despite a Herculean effort, he can't hold on and the > anti-hero plunges to his death. It's the classic way to save the > hero from soiling his virtue. > > > > This is the best I can come up with at the moment. ... the Dept of > > Mysteries-Death Chamber for the final battle. ..., Voldemort is > > about to accidently fall through 'The Veil', ..., Harry leaps > > forward and knocks Lord-V out of the way. Lord-V is so overwhelmed > > by Harry's act of compassion, that he voluntees to walk through > > 'The Veil' thereby ending his reign of terror for all time. > > Cheryl/Lynx: > > FWIW, I ran both these options past my ten year old daughter. "Yeah, > Right. No way, that's dumb" was her reaction. I'm afraid I agree > with her. asian_lovr2: Well, who would know better than a 10 year old. Actually, I wasn't being entirely serious, my point was serious, but I admit my examples were a bit frivolous. The point was that the anti-hero can die in the end without the need for the hero to become a murderer or killer. In my somewhat frivolous examples, indeed the hero ends the story in a grand magnanimous act of heroism, showing once and for all that he is truly the greater person. Admittedly, this occurs mostly in low-budget poorly written 'B' grade movies and TV shows, but is estabilishes a precedent. Do I want Lord-V to die? Yes, but I don't want Harry to kill him with a direct conscious intentional act of harm. I want the books to end with Harry's virtue not his vengeance. In reality, I'm completely stumped for a workable ending (a tribute to the author). Voldemort must the completely and thoroughly vanquished, but he doesn't necessarily have to die. Although, I think Lord-V will die; the question is will Harry kill him, and will Harry die with him. I hope Harry will somehow cause his death, but again, I don't want Harry to kill him with a direct willful act of harm. Would Harry be justified in killing Voldemort? Absolutely, clear cut case of self-defense, even if Harry Death Curse's Lord-V in the back, it would justifiable from the perspective of a soldier in wartime. But just because something is right doesn't mean it isn't wrong (legally right & morally wrong). > Cheryl/Lynx continues: > > I'm afraid the closest I can come to any of your scenarios is LV vs > Harry in the Death Chamber and LV falling through the veil when he > tries to shove Harry through ... or, better yet, all LV's victims, > summoned by Harry's struggles, reaching through, grabbing him and > dragging him in after them. LV gets his just deserts, his victims > get their revenge, all is well. > > The Other Cheryl Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): Ho... Ho... where have I heard this before? ...or at least something similar to this. From: "Steve" Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 4:17 pm Subject: Re: A portrait of Sirius? (Was: Empty picture) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/95091 In the very Last Paragraph. From: "Steve" Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 12:50 am Subject: How about... this ending? (was: A portrait of Sirius?) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/95121 continuation of the previous thread. From: "Steve" Date: Mon May 31, 2004 12:41 pm Subject: Re: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/99833 Link to over a dozen discussions of various possible endings and outcomes. Not all of which are mine. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 27 23:09:54 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:09:54 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DFE062.26.11EAB92@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103026 On 24 Jun 2004 at 15:48, potioncat wrote: > Potioncat: > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > given names? It happens for all sorts of reasons (says Shaun Edward Owen George Hately). In the case of my family, it's not that uncommon - it's generally done to honour various prominent people in the parents lives. In practice I only ever use Shaun and Owen due to difficulties in the past in filling out forms. There may be a good reason why Dumbledore has four given names - or maybe there isn't. It's hardly unique though. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From suzchiles at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 23:21:43 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville in the end Re: Neville and the Prophecy Message-ID: <20040627232143.74127.qmail@web40610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103027 Djrfdh notes: > In the OOTP, Neville does help Harry eventhough he is suffering from > a charm that renders his speech useless in pronouncing properly... Hmm. I just finished my umpteenth reread of OOTP, and had always thought Neville's problem in pronouncing the charms was due to his badly broken nose. Suzanne __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sun Jun 27 23:48:24 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:48:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville in the end - Who kills in the end? In-Reply-To: References: <1a1.2633610f.2e109f2d@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627194029.035b2040@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103028 > >asian_lovr2: > >Well, who would know better than a 10 year old. Actually, I wasn't >being entirely serious, my point was serious, but I admit my examples >were a bit frivolous. The point was that the anti-hero can die in the >end without the need for the hero to become a murderer or killer. > >In my somewhat frivolous examples, indeed the hero ends the story in a >grand magnanimous act of heroism, showing once and for all that he is >truly the greater person. Admittedly, this occurs mostly in low-budget >poorly written 'B' grade movies and TV shows, but is estabilishes a >precedent. > >Do I want Lord-V to die? Yes, but I don't want Harry to kill him with >a direct conscious intentional act of harm. I want the books to end >with Harry's virtue not his vengeance. > >In reality, I'm completely stumped for a workable ending (a tribute to >the author). Voldemort must the completely and thoroughly vanquished, >but he doesn't necessarily have to die. Although, I think Lord-V will >die; the question is will Harry kill him, and will Harry die with him. >I hope Harry will somehow cause his death, but again, I don't want >Harry to kill him with a direct willful act of harm. > >Would Harry be justified in killing Voldemort? Absolutely, clear cut >case of self-defense, even if Harry Death Curse's Lord-V in the back, >it would justifiable from the perspective of a soldier in wartime. But >just because something is right doesn't mean it isn't wrong (legally >right & morally wrong). > > > > > Cheryl/Lynx continues: > > > > > I'm afraid the closest I can come to any of your scenarios is LV vs > > Harry in the Death Chamber and LV falling through the veil when he > > tries to shove Harry through ... or, better yet, all LV's victims, > > summoned by Harry's struggles, reaching through, grabbing him and > > dragging him in after them. LV gets his just deserts, his victims > > get their revenge, all is well. > > > > The Other Cheryl Now Phil comments: I don't know how LV will die, but he is so afraid of death, he will probably become a ghost. I wonder what Moaning Myrtle would do if her killer haunted the school too? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at AOL.com Mon Jun 28 00:27:44 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:27:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville in the end - Who kills in the end? Message-ID: <11.2cf57f38.2e10c000@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103029 In a message dated 6/27/2004 7:11:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > Asian_lovr2 (formerly bboy_mn): > > Ho... Ho... where have I heard this before? ...or at least something > similar to this. Thanks for the listing...I guess my idea wasn't as original as I thought. The Other Cheryl, GMTA! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 00:39:47 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: <11.2cf57f38.2e10c000@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040628003947.16905.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103030 Okay guys, You know how many movies and books end with a big, glorious fight scene with everyone taking on just the right person? Should this happen in book 7, what would the pairings be? Harry vs LV (avenge parents) Neville vs Bella (avenge parents) Hermione vs Draco (blood) Lupin vs Wormtail (the silver hand is there for a reason) Ron vs ? Hagrid vs ? Dumbledore vs ? MM vs ? Lucius vs Arthur Moody vs ? Snape vs ? Any ideas? moonmyyst (vs hugs, kisses, blue, ghost, revie, and grinch - her shelties - every day!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 28 00:50:13 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:50:13 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Untapped Magical Potential (was: Is education a right ...) In-Reply-To: References: <40DF16FD.25269.15E4879@localhost> Message-ID: <40DFF7E5.16890.17A88F6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103031 On 27 Jun 2004 at 17:35, Steve wrote: > Asian_lovr2: > > Excellent analysis as always. Thank you. > I'm OK with everything you said, afteral, you are playing my favorite > game - Logical Extention of the Wizard World, but my curiousity runs > strongly toward the things you didn't say. > > With only 1-in-4 magical people getting into Hogwarts, where do the > other 3 go? That seems to be a tremendous amount of magical potential > going to waste. Yes, in some ways it is. But if a society only *needs* 1 in 4 of its population to be fully educated, it can be argued that it's actually a waste of resources to be training more than that. And that has been a very common viewpoint in history. There's a rather famous book called 'Anatomy of Britain' by Anthony Sampson that I would recommend to anyone interested in looking at historical British society (which sometimes seems useful in considering Harry Potter and its influences). It was written in the early 1960s and was intended to look at how British society (specifically the upper levels of society, but it does look a bit at the general society). Unlike many similar books, this one is fairly simple to read, not overly burderned with academic jargon. Remember this is *recent* history - the book was published only 42 years ago. It has a section on education, and I just want to quote a little bit from it. Remember that 'public school' in Britain is a term applied to the top private schools (at the time this book was written about 5% of British boys attended such a public schools). "The education of the non-public school boy, as every parent knows, begins with one decisive selection at the age of eleven - the sorting-machine for producing Britain's elite. Most countries in Europe, including France, Germany and Russia, selected their clever boys at this age: among major Western countries, only America can afford to avoid this segregation, and to keep all their children together, without a special elite, until sixteen or eighteen... After eleven the clever children go to the 'grammar schools' in roughly the same way that French boys go on to lycees and colleges classiques, and Germnan boys to gymnasium. The less clever boys go to 'secondary modern schools', where most of them will leave at fifteen to go to work (the word 'modern', both here and in the French colleges modernes, is a curious euphemism for 'less clever') while a few go to 'secondary technical schools', where they learn more from lathes and workshops and less from books and grammar... The most striking feature... is the abrupt end for most children at fifteen - the official leaving age. In America, 75 per cent of children are still at school at seventeen: in Britain, only 12 per cent are." (from 'Anatomy of Britain' by Anthony Sampson (1962), p. 183). This is, I stress again, *recent* history. And it's recent history for most of the western world. The fact is, until very recently, there was a very clear understanding in most education systems that full access to secondary level education, was a privilege reserved only for the 'best' children. There's a table in the same book on page 184 later that I'll scan and put on a webpage at http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/sossampson.gif because it really ilustrates the point. Basically it shows the number of boys in each section of the British education system at each age from age 12-17. Only those boys at the public schools (private fee-paying schools) and the boys who did best on their 11+ exam at age 11 and managed to get into a grammar school have any realistic chance of staying at school beyond the age of 15. The table is dramatic on this point. This was the reality in Britain and most of the western world (except the United States) until very recently in history. And the Wizarding World seems a little behind our Muggle society - a little bit further back in time. But basically, Muggle Britain in 1960 was operating on a system where at age 11, there was a 'cut'. The top 25% (23% according to the table in Sampson) went to schools at age 12 which gave them a reasonable chance of completing a full secondary education. The other 75% (or 77% by Sampson) went to schools where while they *could* stay on till they were 17 and get a full secondary education, only just over 1% of them would do so. This is the recent historical reality. Now, it's important to realise that these people who didn't get into the grammar schools in Britain were not denied an education. They just didn't get the same education as that offered to the 'lucky few'. The same may well apply in the Wizarding World - just because a Wizard doesn't get into Hogwarts doesn't mean their education necessarily ends. They may not go to school - but there are a lot of other ways of learning besides school. Apprenticeships, or cadetships, for example, are probably the most likely ways - and again until very recently were quite common paths to education in the 'Muggle' world - and in some cases, paths to quite sophisticated, well paid and respected jobs. In the Wizarding World, this seems perfectly plausible. > Certainly we don't need to concern ourselves with those who are Squib > and near-Squib; although, I don't believe Squibs are completely devoid > of magical talent. But what about those who are just below the > standard. Certainly over a lifetime, they will develope substantial > magical potential, and it seem unwise not to mention dangerous, to > have all the magical potential running around without any guidance or > control. Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it. My view is that Hogwarts provides a high quality 'general wizarding education'. The foundation in all the important areas of magic that a professional in Wizarding society may one day find useful, and a grounding in specific areas needed for higher training to be, for example, an Auror, or a Mediwitch. Whereas, those Wizards who don't get into Hogwarts, get a more specialised education. They learn the skills needed for their specific job in great detail - and other areas are considered less important. They are not denied guidance, or control. But does a wizard who will spend his life driving the Knight Bus, need to know much herbology? Or potions? Or transfiguration? Or care of magical creatures? A *professional* - someone who may wind up holding high office in the Ministry, or an Auror, or a Healer - they in jobs where a broad knowledge may be important. But for a lot of jobs, while broad knowledge might be nice to have, it's not likely to be that necessary to actually do your job. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Jun 28 00:53:30 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:53:30 -0000 Subject: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: <40DF009F.6036.106E5A0@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103032 Shaun Hately wrote: I think Harry, all things being equal, > would have been the better choice - but the reason that didn't > happen is explained. I can't see any reason though, why Ron > couldn't discharge the duties appropriately. He seems capable to > me. I think the answer to why Ron was made prefect lies in the way Dumbledore does things. It's the same reason why Hagrid was made CoMC professor, though even the Trio admit (when they take an objective view) that Grubbly-Plank is the better teacher: Dumbledore needs to give Hagrid a chance because he will learn from his teaching failures and eventually develop the self-confidence that's needed to fight Voldemort. Harry doesn't need the experience of being a prefect. Ron does need it, because he has no confidence in himself and he needs on-the-job training to develop. What Ron's selection does tell us, as I see it, is that behind the slacker student there is talent waiting to be tapped. Debbie From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jun 28 00:56:20 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:56:20 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627154310.035da150@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Phil Vlasak wrote: > >Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE > THE DEATH EATERS > LV says... > But I was willing to > embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my > sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and > my old strength. > This raises the question of just how far one should believe Voldemort. I tend to be skeptical of his explanations - not because he's a villain, and known to be tricky and a liar, but because he doesn't really know as much as he thinks he does. He doesn't really know what happened at GH - in CoS, Tom Riddle is asking Harry for an explanation for how he was able to defeat the greatest dark wizard in the world. When Harry gives him the "Lily's sacrifice" explanation, TR accepts it (rather facilely, I think), and basically says he should have seen that one coming. But Harry doesn't really KNOW, either, and I think it's strange that such a powerful wizard would take the word of a young boy who doesn't have a clue what this deeper sort of magic is, and can't even remember the incident in question. Tom/Voldemort comes across as rather eager to accept the first plausible explanation that comes along, just to tidy up a loose end. And he does this sort of thing elsewhere, too - forgetting about the phoenix tears, not realizing that the diary leaves him vulnerable to attack by Harry, rushing off and taking action on the basis of a half-heard prophecy. He THINKS he's got everything covered and under control, but he doesn't. So I don't think his own explanation of what happened to him at GH and immediately after is necessarily the final word on the subject. Wanda From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 01:00:53 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040628010053.53671.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103034 elfundeb2 wrote: Shaun Hately wrote: I think Harry, all things being equal, would have been the better choice - but the reason that didn't happen is explained. I can't see any reason though, why Ron couldn't discharge the duties appropriately. He seems capable to me. I think the answer to why Ron was made prefect lies in the way Dumbledore does things. It's the same reason why Hagrid was made CoMC professor, though even the Trio admit (when they take an objective view) that Grubbly-Plank is the better teacher: Dumbledore needs to give Hagrid a chance because he will learn from his teaching failures and eventually develop the self-confidence that's needed to fight Voldemort. Harry doesn't need the experience of being a prefect. Ron does need it, because he has no confidence in himself and he needs on-the-job training to develop. What Ron's selection does tell us, as I see it, is that behind the slacker student there is talent waiting to be tapped. Debbie I agree with this. Ron needed a chance, out from under Harry, to prove himself. Harry will be made Head Boy and the other two, as prefects, will be his leutenants (sp) both in school and in the war. This will give Ron more confidence and will also have him less resentful of Harry when the time comes. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 28 01:15:46 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:15:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75996872.20040627181546@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103035 Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 9:45:35 PM, imamommy at sbcglobal.net wrote: isn> As I was rereading OOP again, I was trying to connect all the dots on isn> Broderick Bode ... who was his visitor the day after Arthur isn> was attacked? the old man with the listening device? Was he as isn> innocuous as he seemed? Was JKR just keeping Bode's name in our isn> minds, or is there more to this man than is obvious? This is maybe a horrible thought, but has it occurred to anyone that Bode's murderer may have been none other than his healer, Miriam Strout? On an unrelated note, I have been wondering, since I've never seen the name anywhere else, whether Broderick Bode may be a descendant of the 18th century astronomer Johann Bode, who I gather was sort of a Gilderoy Lockhart of his time, both in charisma and in taking credit for other people's work... -- Dave From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 28 01:10:02 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:10:02 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <006c01c45c7a$8fbcd820$a34b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <40DFFC8A.9661.18CAECA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103036 On 27 Jun 2004 at 20:11, manawydan wrote: > Just one question comes to mind from me and that is: how would you see the > standard being assessed? Would you see it as just being a function of the > Quill, that it would automatically register someone's likely MQ/MP at age 11 > when they were born, or something that someone's family would try to assess > (eg by dropping Neville out of the window!) or by some other means? I > couldn't see the WW having the resources to be able to administer tests to > all the children... My quess would that it's the Quill (at least primarily). Somehow this Magic Quill can tell at birth which child will have a particular MQ as an 11 year old - maybe by some form of measurement, maybe by some sort of divination. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 01:33:00 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are house-elves _slaves,... House vs house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040628013300.70970.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103037 Steve wrote: Kreacher is bound to the family line of Black, but with Sirius's death, the direct line of decendancy has been broken; there is no more downward House of Black. However, there is still a 'side-ways' House of Black. There are no direct decendants, but there are decendants 'one removed'. In otherwords, Sirius has three living first cousins, unfortunately, none of them are named 'Black'. They are Malfoy, Tonks, and LeStrange. With inheritance issues like Sirius's, the law usually looks for the oldest and nearest MALE relative. Based on the knowledge we have, the oldest and nearest Male relative is Draco Malfoy. I don't want to get into the Black Estate Inheritance issue as it has been discussed several times. I just want to remind people that when the books says an elf is bound to a house, that's probably House with a capital 'H'. Just a thought. Steve B. Sorry I am so far behind in posts, you guys. I have been dancing naked in the streets at the thought of having the name of the next book!! Now that my feet are sore and my skin is burned to a crisp, I can get caught up!! When reading this post, I had the wierdest thought of Harry and Draco in the court at the MoM and 200 witches and wizards looking down at them, fighting over Sirius' estate!! (but I am his oldest male relative) (you are just an ugly git!! I am his godson) moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 02:08:06 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:08:06 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103038 Wanda wrote: When Harry gives him the "Lily's sacrifice" explanation, TR accepts it (rather facilely, I think), and basically says he should have seen that one coming. But Harry doesn't really KNOW, either, and I think it's strange that such a powerful wizard would take the word of a young boy who doesn't have a clue what this deeper sort of magic is, and can't even remember the incident in question. Tom/Voldemort comes across as rather eager to accept the first plausible explanation that comes along, just to tidy up a loose end. And he does this sort of thing elsewhere, too - forgetting about the phoenix tears, not realizing that the diary leaves him vulnerable to attack by Harry, rushing off and taking action on the basis of a half-heard prophecy. He THINKS he's got everything covered and under control, but he doesn't. So I don't think his own explanation of what happened to him at GH and immediately after is necessarily the final word on the subject. vmonte responds: Tom doesn't remember what happened at Godric's Hollow because he wasn't there. The diary holds the memories of teenage Tom Riddle. Godric's Hollow happened over 38 years later. The diary only holds the memories of Tom up to Hogwarts. You are right about the prophecy though. By time Voldemort hears the Prophecy he should know better. If he had ignored it in the first place he would have conquered the WW by now. But fortunately for the Order, Voldemort and the DEs are not logical thinkers. They are controlled by their emotions. They often appear hysterical and or mad-like. They really need a cool and calculating figure to take over the reins from Voldemort. vivian vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 02:14:00 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:14:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103039 Snow wrote: This thought is unrelated sorry but all this talk about Voldemort's body made me think of something Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies " If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is missing? vmonte responds: It would be funny if the "hand of glory" turns out to be what was left of Voldemort from GH. LOL! vivian From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jun 28 02:18:14 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:18:14 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: >> vmonte responds: It would be funny if the "hand of glory" turns out > to be what was left of Voldemort from GH. LOL! > Oh, that WOULD be funny! I can't imagine that Lucius wouldn't want it in his collection, but maybe he prefers to keep a little safe distance between himself and the Master. Wanda From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 02:43:40 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:43:40 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103041 Kneasy wrote: My other theory is that it refers to past events, specifically Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" that can live is James and Lily and "while the other survives" refers to Harry. That way the Prophecy highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his parents had to die for it to take effect. I posted that last year too, mostly to the roar of thunderous indifference. Ah, well. 'Twas ever thus. Too clever for my own good, sometimes. vmonte responds: I think that you are right about what the prophecy is saying, Kneasy. I don't think that DD is reading the prophecy correctly. The prophecy seems to be the only thing that has stumped DD. With almost everything else that goes on at Hogwarts and anything to do with Harry he always knows too much information, way more than he should know. He knows what Ron and Harry saw in the mirror of erised. He knows that Ron and Harry were under the cloak in Hagrid's hut. He knows, before term starts in OOTP, that Voldemort was going to have access into Harry's mind, etc, etc. But with the prophecy he is completely clueless. Trelawny seems to be something DD did not expect. He tells Harry that he was surprised to hear the prophecy because when he met Trelawny she appeared to be talentless. When he does hear her prophecy, he thinks it could be about Neville or Harry. For someone who is supposed to know everything, Trelawny seems to have thrown DD off his game. So perhaps Trelawny wasn't meant to happen. Did something change to allow her to enter the picture? Or did someone else enter her into the picture? Is she really a Seer, or a puppet? Is someone using her as a conduit for their own evil plan? I would really like to know who was thrown out the night of Trelawny's prophecy... vivian From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 02:55:56 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:55:56 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Snow wrote: > > This thought is unrelated sorry but all this talk about Voldemort's > body made me think of something Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out > for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, > destroyed, and their bodies " > > If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and > Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have > been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH > and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is > missing? > > > vmonte responds: It would be funny if the "hand of glory" turns out > to be what was left of Voldemort from GH. LOL! > > vivian Snow: Oh! So that was the hand that we saw in the priori incantatem in the graveyard and not wormtails. Just kidding! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 03:06:21 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:06:21 -0000 Subject: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: <20040628010053.53671.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103043 K G wrote: snip > I agree with this. Ron needed a chance, out from under Harry, to prove himself. Harry will be made Head Boy and the other two, as prefects, will be his leutenants (sp) both in school and in the war. This will give Ron more confidence and will also have him less resentful of Harry when the time comes. Alla: Did Ron need a chance to prove himself? Sure, he is in the Harry's shadow quite often and he does have self-esteem problems, but what do you mean by "being less resentful of Harry when the time comes"? Do you mean the time of final battle? If yes, then by that time (the end of book 7) Ron will already know that it is Harry's responsibility and burden to defeat Voldie. I hope that by that time Ron will not have ANY resentment of Harry, but only the desire to help him to win that battle and survive. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 03:27:52 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:27:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:_Storg=E9_Spell?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103044 Before it goes into permanent storage, here's a filk on Storg? Storg? Spell To the tune of Georgy Girl by The Seeker ? I mean, The Seekers Dedicated to CV http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#G To be sung at the Little Hangleton cemetery ? right alongside the Red Grave Hey there, Storg? spell, We met you at C.S. Lewis's And we don't just how true this is, but some claim they saw on Jo's site You there, Storg? spell Will that be your pillar in Book Six, Or is it just naughty tricks by jokers we must foreswear? To know your name we're coaxing, but some on hoaxing rely Let's wait till Jo confirms or denies this title biz Hey there, Storg? spell Causin' quite an orgy here online Unearthing truth would be divine and oh, what a charge we'd grab! Like Vincent Crabbe, be speechless as well. Hey there, Storg? spell, You involve the bonds of family That we derive Attically, an era time can't decay. But if you're not the title it's really vital to find The words that will be on Six's spine that title biz Hey there, Storg? spell Causin' quite an orgy here online Though it seems that you're a fake, but oh, what a blast we had! We can't stay mad, but, Storg?, farewell! (Hey there, Storg? spell) Look up, Storg? spell (Hey there, Storg? spell) Search on Storg? spell FADE (Hey there, Storg? spell) Click on Storg? spell . - CMC NOTE: Attically is my adverbial transformation of Attic, meaning that which pertains to the ancient Greek state of Attica, and its principal city, Athens HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From rarpsl at optonline.net Sun Jun 27 21:48:19 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:48:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103045 At 03:06 +0000 on 06/24/2004, dumbledore11214 wrote about [HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? : >I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape >in classroom, though. :) There is a differnece between learning and being able to put that knowledge to use. All of the examples in Snape's class are either Verbal (as opposed to written) Answering or practical demenstrations TO HIM. Given his attitude towards Harry and Neville the fact that they mess up in class is not so much a indication of their knowledge level but of their ability to apply their knowledge while he is intimidating them. The only fair way to measure if they have learned the subject is written exams administered by someone other than him and/or having the practical exam taken without him in the room (IOW: As occurs in OOP). You are trying to equate their performance with their success in learning from him - Two different things as I noted. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 03:45:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:45:35 -0000 Subject: And More on Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103046 Alla previously:- > >I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape > >in classroom, though. :) Robert wrote: snip The only fair way to measure if they have learned > the subject is written exams administered by someone other than him > and/or having the practical exam taken without him in the room (IOW: > As occurs in OOP). Alla: I agree with you. If Neville and Harry did well on their OWLS, it will be the best piece of evidence for me that they learned something from Snape. On that day I will publicly acknowledge that academically Snape is a good teacher :o). On the other hand, I will also think that their performance is the best when Snape is not in the classroom, so even if he put something in their heads, they cannot do well with him being present in the classroom. So, that means for me that he should not be in the said classroom (Let me repeat again for all Snape apologists ready to jump at me - AT THE END of the series, not now. :o). I will be the first one to acknowledge that without Snape, "potterverse" will lose a lot. :o) From allisonblair at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 00:07:54 2004 From: allisonblair at gmail.com (Allison Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:07:54 -0500 Subject: Moaning Myrtle and Tom/LV (WAS: Neville in the end - Who kills in the end?) In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040627194029.035b2040@mail.toltbbs.com> References: <1a1.2633610f.2e109f2d@aol.com> <6.1.0.6.0.20040627194029.035b2040@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103047 > Now Phil comments: > I wonder what Moaning Myrtle > would do if her killer haunted the > school too? Random question, but do you think that Myrtle has made the connection between her death and her killer? She didn't seem very certain on the facts of the matter in CoS, and she's proud enough of being a ghost that I think she would tell people that she was one of Voldemort's first victims, if she knew. It strikes me as the type of thing she'd brag about, like starting a trend or something. Allisonblair From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 03:50:17 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:50:17 -0000 Subject: Blurring of Bloodlines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm wrote: ...I would surmise this is probably the case, a fact which some in the WW would rather bury than admit. I say this from a gene-pool point of view. ...Genetics break down with a lot of in-breeding; one needs fresh stock, so to speak, to keep lines/groups going. This being the case, the possibility/probability exists that a truly pure-blood witch or wizard is indeed a lot more rare than even the pure-bloods, as I said above, would dare to speculate. ...I sincerely believe that, even with muggle blood, there's no such thing as an absolute purity of line; someone, somewhere, will have other traits brought in...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says Exactly. Remember the hue and cry when geneticists and other scientists determined that the human race originated in Africa, and that every human on the planet can be traced through mitochondrial DNA to an "African Eve". And the way the theme of bloodlines drives so much of the plot seems to me a dead giveaway that the fatal weakness of the WW is its erroneous concept of an essential difference between their world and the "muggle" (i.e., normal) one. --JDR From townsend3 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 00:38:46 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:38:46 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103049 AntaresCheryl at a... wrote: Does anyone have any ideas as to the signifigance of the gum wrappers that Alice Longbottom keeps on giving Neville? Valky: Tho I am not keen on the poisoning theory Fran, you make an excellent point when you say "Where are the Bubbles?" Hell Yeah ? Where are they ? Fran: The absence of the bubbles, imho, indicates that the gum has been tampered with. Someone posted recently that Gran was possibly keeping Neville from living up to his full potential by lowering his self confidence. It would be very painful for her to lose another family member. Could she possibly be the one responsible for keeping Frank and Alice from reovering in an attempt to keep them alive? Another theory that has been brought up is that there is a message in all the gum wrappers.... Tara: When is gum just gum? Maybe Alice is just trying to give Neville a treat, but because she's not all there anymore, it's not a traditional kind of treat. Neville values it anyway because it's from his mum. JKR's site is covered with gum wrappers, so it's probably just something that she likes (gum). As for the other theories about Neville and his abilities, I think that now that his dad's wand is broken, he will be able to choose a wand (or the wand will choose him, of course) that really works well for him. That could be the turning point for more of his skills to really come out. He's already shown himself to be a true Gryffindor in terms of courage, it's just these other obstacles that have been holding him back. He even seemed to do well on his Potions O.W.L. when Snape wasn't around. I don't think he's really the doofus many people (in the books) think he is. He just lacks confidence like you say, although I don't know that his Gran is running him down on purpose to hold him back. Anyway, I believe Neville is going to surprise us all when he blooms. Tara From townsend3 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 01:05:38 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:05:38 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 27 Jun 2004 at 14:05, djrfdh wrote: > > > So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical > > wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything > > magical from age one to age eleven;( unless you count the odd things > > that seemed to "happen" whenever he got mad or upset!) Did he get in > > because he was the "notable" son of two of Hogwarts most well-known > > students? Or did Harry gain entry because he was "famous" for having > > survived a LV attack and therefore entitled to the best "defensive" > > education as compensation for losing his parents, that the WW could > > offer? > > No, on the MQ/MP idea I've postulated he got in because his MP/MQ > was high enough (I suspect it's unusually high) and because he did > have exposure to magic as an infant which did trigger later > spontaneous magic. > > What I have proposed is not an idea that requires a child to have > constant contact with magic - just *some* - to trigger magical > ability at MP 900. Harry had a solid year of it with his family. > That's enough. The key to the idea is that if there is virtually > none, it won't happen at that point - but Harry had at least some > (and being surrounded by protective magic may also have been a > factor). Me: Wait, why does a child have to be "exposed" to magic at some point to qualify for Hogwarts? Lily and Hermione were born to Muggles, had no prior exposure to adult wizards, and turned out to be highly qualified witches. According to PS/SS, there's a book that records the birth of every magic child born in Britain (regardless of parentage or later experience with magic), and McGonagall simply consults it every year to send out letters to the eleven-year-olds. It is my belief that every British child with any bit of magic in them (except for Squibs, maybe) gets invited to Hogwarts. Whether or not they stay past their O.W.L.s depends on their personal academic ambition. This whole theory about a magical quotient or whatever (and I may not have seen all the posts on the subject) seems very interesting, but I see no evidence for it in canon. Tara From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 01:39:09 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (Tina Donaldson) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:39:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake References: <20040628010053.53671.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103051 Shaun Hately wrote: > Harry doesn't need the experience of being a prefect. Ron does need it, because > he has no confidence in himself and he needs on-the-job training to develop. Tina: Ron has always been in the shadow of his brothers, so it would be easy to let him fall between the cracks so to speak (ie: Mrs Wealey forgetting that he hates corned beef), I think by making prefect and making the Quidditch team (and after their ban under the scrutiny of the twins) he has shown that he is capable of many great things. I think that when Dumbledore made the decision to make Ron a prefect, he knew that Ron needed the boost to discover this within himself. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 01:30:58 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (Tina Donaldson) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:30:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? References: <20040628003947.16905.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103052 moonmyyst: Okay guys, You know how many movies and books end with a big, glorious fight scene with everyone taking on just the right person? Should this happen in book 7, what would the pairings be? Tina: I would have to say that these would be my ideal parings: I agree with the Harry vs LV and also the ones involving Neville and Lupin. However, I think it will be Ron that will fight Draco. Only looking at it from the standpoint that Draco makes fun of Ron being poor more than he calls Hermione a 'Mudblood.' Unfortunately, because Jo promised that there would be more deaths, I think that Arthur and Hagrid will be dead by this point. Jo seems to have a patricide side to her writing (first James, then Sirius), so that is the reasoning behind that theory. I would like to see Snape and Lucius duel it out, that would be an interesting paring in the end, too. Especially since it seems that Lucius has such high regard for Snape. Better question yet: Who will remain standing at the end of the final battle? From townsend3 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 01:48:48 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:48:48 -0000 Subject: Understanding OWLs : Note: OWLs without NEWTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > fauntine wrote: > > I think it is VERY possible Harry got an Outstanding in his Potions > OWL - along with several unsuspecting candidates. Reason being is > that Snape is EXTREMELY hard on his students. So, I am guessing that > they are above average for their level as compared to other Wizarding > Schools. Even if they don't get Outstandings in his class by Snape's > own grading standard, there is a possibility they could get an > Outstanding on their OWL. >>> > McMax: > Harry's problems with Potions don't come from the actual work but from > Snape's treatment of him. In OotP, Harry is surprised that the test > was not as hard as he feared and even Neville was more relaxed than > in class. So it's possible that Harry got an 'Outstanding' and even > if he doesn't he will be in Snape's N.E.W.T class so JKR can keep > that interaction. But like at the end of OotP I don't think Harry is > going to take the harassment lying down anymore. Tara: I agree that Harry probably got an "Outstanding" on his Potions O.W.L., because of course he has to continue that class. I also think he did well enough in Charms, Transfiguration, Care of Magical Creatures, and DADA to continue those subjects through N.E.W.T. level. He apparently botched his History of Magic, Divination, and Astronomy O.W.L.s, but he doesn't need those to become an auror. Herbology doesn't seem to be mentioned in my quick perusal of OotP, but he probably did fine in that too. In any case, he just needs five O.W.L.s to continue to N.E.W.T. level and the auror program, and he seems to have done what was necessary in the four classes McGonagall mentioned during his careers advice session. In any case, I don't think Jo would set him up wanting to become an auror and then fail to be able to even take those classes in years six and seven. He certainly isn't going to be able to get away from Snape in any case. If he no longer has to take History of Magic, Divination, or Astronomy, he might make up for it with supplemental classes in other subjects (Occlumency, Legilimency, and other defensive arts spring to mind). Anyway, he's getting his O.W.L. results in July (hence in the first chapter of Book 6), so I guess we'll know soon enough. Tara From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 01:57:30 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (Tina Donaldson) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:57:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are house-elves _slaves,... House vs house References: <20040628013300.70970.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103054 moonmyyst: When reading this post, I had the wierdest thought of Harry and Draco in the court at the MoM and 200 witches and wizards looking down at them, fighting over Sirius' estate!! (but I am his oldest male relative) (you are just an ugly git!! I am his godson) Tina: I am under the assumption that Kreacher belongs to the house (the building)not the family line. My backup on this theory is take Dobby: He was the Malfoys HE, so only the owner of the house(Lucius) could free him. If Dobby belonged to the House of Malfoy (the family line) wouldn't that would mean that anyone in the family could free him? As for Sirus's estate, I would think he would leave everything to Harry (either straight out or in trust with DD as executor), that way there is no room for a slimey relative to make a claim. Thank you Moonmyyst for the picture of Draco and Harry in Wizard Probate Court. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 02:00:15 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:00:15 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: <20040628003947.16905.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103055 "Brian" suggests: Ron vs ? Viktor...who really likes dark magic, and needs to stay away from Hermione. Hagrid vs ? The current Gurg of the giants. Dumbledore vs ? Cornelius Fudge (He'll show 'em where it's packed...in Azkaban.) MM vs ? Dolores Umbridge (It'll be the catfight of the century, since MM will be in high cat form.) Lucius vs Arthur (Arthur will probably make sure that Lucius is killed by "eckeltricity," maybe using one of his plugs.) Moody vs ? Tonks. "Nice one, Mad-Eye," indeed. Tonks will have shown her true colors (perhaps for the first time in her life), and Moody will perform a "nice one" on her. Snape vs ? Life itself. Thanks to his ultimate sacrifice to the order, they "won't have Severus Snape to kick around any longer." From hawkeye072 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 02:06:36 2004 From: hawkeye072 at sbcglobal.net (madeyemoody72) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:06:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black poll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103056 If I were JKR I would have him alive and trapped behind the veil, (since he was not actually killed) and in full communication with Harry after Harry sends the mirror through the veil as an act of final respect to Sirius. Later a possible rescue would develope, but it would come to nothing and Harry and Sirius would have to come to grips with being apart. "madeyemoody' From townsend3 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 03:01:30 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:01:30 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103057 > The Sergeant Majorette says > > > Second, has anybody noticed that the answers to the questions we beat > to death before a book comes out are *always* a couple of orders of > magnitude simpler than the conclusions we'd come to? Tara: Yes! Thank you for noticing that. I've been reading all kinds of theories and ideas being tossed around on this list, and while most are quite interesting and creative, they are generally so far fetched and complex as to be completely unlikely to happen in canon. We hear the clip-clop and think zebra when it's really just horse. We all love the twists and surprises that Jo does include in her books, and we'd love to be able to predict the next big bombshell, but I think most stuff is really just what it appears to be: James, Lily, and Sirius are really dead; Petunia and Dudley are really Muggles; Harry and Hermione are not related; everybody else is pretty much who they appear to be; and so on. Maybe we invent these notions because we'd like certain facts to be changed (Harry's parents not to be really dead, for a start). There will certainly be unexpected events, but I think we make them more complicated than they need to be. After all, the prophecy about Harry was just that he would be Voldy's downfall, pretty simple, really (and one that I expected from Book 1 - obviously inspired by King Herod and Pharaoh and the little boys they tried to destroy). Anyway, it's quite entertaining to imagine what's coming next, but I think she makes her clues relatively clear (Mark Evans, Neville's wand, Ron/Hermione, and something being up with the DADA job so that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to take that position). You are free to disagree with me, and in fact, I think that is the point! cheers, Tara From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 04:15:34 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:15:34 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: <20040628003947.16905.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103058 Harry vs LV (avenge parents)But it will not be a regular duel. I can hardy imagine harry dueling up to DD and Voldemort's standard (like they did at the end of OoTP) by the time he is 17. This is where Harry and Voldemort's brother wands come in handy. Hell, it could even end up fist vs fist, 17 year old versus 60 year old. Dudley's beatings could actually help Harry beat up the most powerfull wizard of all time (just kidding). Neville vs Bella (avenge parents)I like this idea, because it would finally make Neville bonafide, so to speak. He would have beaten a person who could beat his dad, whom he is constantly in the shadow of. Ron vs Draco Because Draco is Ron's arch nemisis. Alot of people will disagree with me but, Draco is rich Ron is poor, Draco's dad and Ron's dad hate each other, Draco insult's Ron's love intrest (hermione, and i know alot of people think different). Draco is not Harry's equal, but i feel he is Ron's. They are both prefects. Draco's dad lured Ginny into the chamber of secrets. Ginny took out Draco with a bat boogey hex, and he would want revenge. Ron and his family detest racism, Draco and his family embrace it. etc etc Wormtail will refuse to fight. His life debt to Harry will make him not fight. The silver hand is a red hearing. I think it is a bit to obvious that JK made the hand silver. We do not even know how silver effects werewolves in the potterverse. Lupin and Peter will never fight. Hagrid vs some incredible beast. He will have to face a lethifold, or a mantecore, or some other horrible creature, just because he is so fond of them. He will have to fight it and kill it, because it is kill or be killed. And he will hate himself for it. Or perhaps MacNair because MacNair has killed so many good beasts. Dumbledore vs death. The guy is going to die. Its not who he will face but rather, will he last that long. HE has lived a long and full life, it is time for him to let go. Lucius vs Arthur You are right this is just natural. Snape vs himself. He will not know which side to choose. He will fight with himself to keep himself from going over to Voldemort again. He may just wait to see who the winner is. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 28 05:35:43 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:35:43 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: References: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> Message-ID: <40E03ACF.14871.27FF49C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103059 On 28 Jun 2004 at 1:05, Tara wrote: > Me: Wait, why does a child have to be "exposed" to magic at some point > to qualify for Hogwarts? Lily and Hermione were born to Muggles, had > no prior exposure to adult wizards, and turned out to be highly > qualified witches. According to PS/SS, there's a book that records > the birth of every magic child born in Britain (regardless of > parentage or later experience with magic), and McGonagall simply > consults it every year to send out letters to the eleven-year-olds. > It is my belief that every British child with any bit of magic in them > (except for Squibs, maybe) gets invited to Hogwarts. Whether or not > they stay past their O.W.L.s depends on their personal academic ambition. No, Tara, you've misunderstood what I said. I haven't said that a child needs to be exposed to magic to qualify for Hogwarts. This is just a proposed theory, and there's no particular reason to suppose it's correct - it's just an attempt to resolve into a coherent possible, all the diverse information we have. But there's no aprt of what I've proposed that says a child needs to be exposed to magic to qualify for Hogwarts. What the theory proposes is that a child may require exposure to magic to exhibit spontaneous magical manifestations - such as Neville's bouncing at the age of 8 when dropped out of a window, or Harry's winding up on the roof of his school. These spontaneous manifestations have nothing to do with whether or not a child qualifies for Hogwarts. As for the magical quill (it's a magical quill not a book that records the birth of every magical child in Britain according to JKR), that's been discussed previously in this thread - you've kind of jumped in the middle of the discussion here. > This whole theory about a magical quotient or whatever (and I may not > have seen all the posts on the subject) seems very interesting, but I > see no evidence for it in canon. The evidence has been outlined in a lot of posts over the last few days, and it really does seem that you've come in on this one particular post without having read the previous ones. That's hardly surprising - this is a high volume list and things can easily get missed, but if you haven't read the background posts you're not going to understand why I've tried to develop this theory. The short version is that we do have evidence from canon that not every magical child gets into Hogwarts. It's not conclusive proof but there is evidence for that position. If you do want to understand the background to this theory, I would suggest you check the following messages in the archives of the list. 102658, 102778, 102779, 102802, 102831, 102927. There is no real direct evidence for a Magical Quotient - I'm developing that idea as a possible way of explaining issues raised in previous posts - notably that (1) it does seem likely that not every wizarding child in Britain does get into Hogwarts, and (2) if this is the case, it raises interesting questions about whether there is a different standard for entry for muggleborns as compared to those from Wizard background. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 06:03:32 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:03:32 -0000 Subject: House vs house - Links to Inheritance (was:Re: Are house-elves _slaves,... ) In-Reply-To: <20040628013300.70970.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Steve wrote: > > ..edited... > > With inheritance issues like Sirius's, the law usually looks for the oldest and nearest MALE relative. Based on the knowledge we have, the oldest and nearest Male relative is Draco Malfoy. > > I don't want to get into the Black Estate Inheritance issue as it has been discussed several times. I just want to remind people that when the books says an elf is bound to a house, that's probably House with a capital 'H'. > > Just a thought. > > Steve B. > > MoonMyyst: > > When reading this post, I had the wierdest thought of Harry and Draco in the court at the MoM and 200 witches and wizards looking down at them, fighting over Sirius' estate!! (but I am his oldest male relative) (you are just an ugly git!! I am his godson) > > moonmyyst Asian_lovr2: Don't really have more to add to this immediate subject, but I do just happen to have a list of links to old threads discussing the Black Inheritance Issue. (Posted Below) Some people don't like to go back and read old discussion, but there really is a lot of interesting information and insight in these old posts. It's really sad that Yahoo, a company known for it's search engine, has such a lousy search engine in it's discussion groups. These old discussion are invaluable in adding insight into current subjects, and are wonderful stimulus for new ideas. Back to your main point, I also believe that a significant part of the next book or possbily the last book will be a struggle between Harry and Draco over the Black Estate. I will also remind people that the inheritance is comprised of TWO estates; Sirius Black's personal estate, and the Black Family Estate. As long as we are on the subject of money, who gets the reward for capturing all those Death Eaters? The escaped Death Eater each had G1,000 reward (1,000 gallions=approx. US$7,500). I think Ron could really use the cash. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >From a post on file- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . bboy_mn: I'll post the links to thread that have already discussed this directly and indirectly. Below are links to this and related discussion. These are links to my posts, but you can move up and down the thread, and see what everyone else had to say. Jun 29 - OOP: the Inheritance? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65763 Jul 1 - OoP: Re: Question - inheritance thread...(& Winky) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66493 Jul 23 - Dead Men Tell No Lies (was: inheritance) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72691 Jul 22 - Inheritance - Kreacher - Dead or Alive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72476 Aug 1 - Kreacher & House-Elf Relocation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74791 Aug 2 - Re: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74859 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Steve/asian_lovr2 From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 06:18:14 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:18:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & his potions O.W.L Message-ID: <1c4.1affbad1.2e111226@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103061 In a message dated 06/26/2004 1:33:34 PM Central Daylight Time, amycrn4230 at yahoo.com writes: > During the actual test, Snape probably won't be monitoring the exam... > none of the other teachers seem to monitor their own subjects...so > Harry may very well do a great job...he's smart enough, just has bad > luck concentrating when Snape is around... > Maybe he'll have more courage when he gets an "O" on the exam. We already know that during the Potions OWL, Snape was not monitoring. In fact I don't think (after rereading) that the teachers were allowed in the room during the practical exams. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 07:48:35 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:48:35 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103063 Tina: I would have to say that these would be my ideal parings: I agree with the Harry vs LV and also the ones involving Neville and Lupin. However, I think it will be Ron that will fight Draco. Only looking at it from the standpoint that Draco makes fun of Ron being poor more than he calls Hermione a 'Mudblood.' Unfortunately, because Jo promised that there would be more deaths, I think that Arthur and Hagrid will be dead by this point. Jo seems to have a patricide side to her writing (first James, then Sirius), so that is the reasoning behind that theory. I would like to see Snape and Lucius duel it out, that would be an interesting paring in the end, too. Especially since it seems that Lucius has such high regard for Snape. Better question yet: Who will remain standing at the end of the final battle? vmonte responds: I think that Molly will be the person to bite the dust instead of Arthur. Hermione's parents are also at risk. I think Neville will fight Bellatrix. Harry, Ginny, and DD will fight Voldemort. Hermione will fight the Malfoys, with Luna? Ron will go after the person responsible for his mother's death. Ron will also fight the DE's with Fred and George and Hogwart's students. Lupin will fight Snape? Who will die? Dumbledore Hagrid Trelawny Molly Hermione's parents Voldemort Neville - because JKR sees him as a tragic figure Harry - but he will somehow come back Percy - because he will redeem himself Wormtail Snape Lupin Dobby Lockhart -- Just because JKR based this character on someone she didn't like. Who will we see again either via penseive memories, dreams, time- travel, talking portraits, Sirius's mirror: Lily, James, Sirius Who will choose death to save Harry: Lily, James, Sirius, Lupin vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 08:13:51 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:13:51 -0000 Subject: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103064 Alla: Did Ron need a chance to prove himself? Sure, he is in the Harry's shadow quite often and he does have self-esteem problems, but what do you mean by "being less resentful of Harry when the time comes"? Do you mean the time of final battle? If yes, then by that time (the end of book 7) Ron will already know that it is Harry's responsibility and burden to defeat Voldie. I hope that by that time Ron will not have ANY resentment of Harry, but only the desire to help him to win that battle and survive. vmonte responds: I may be wrong but I think that what was meant was that Ron will not be resentful of Harry when Harry becomes Head Boy. Just thinking of GoF: Personally I think that Ron was upset with Harry during GoF not because of jealousy, but because he felt that Harry did not confide, or include him, when he felt that Harry entered the contest. (Ron thought Harry secretly entered the contest without him because Harry wanted the glory all to himself. But I think Ron just wanted to be with his friend.) It was interesting that even though Ron and Harry were fighting during GoF, Ron was still worried about Harry. The night that Harry was talking to Sirius at the fire place, Ron went downstairs to the common room to make sure Harry was alright. Harry then lashes out at Ron who then realizes that Harry had thought him of being jealous. But I think that Ron was just hurt that Harry had not included him in his plans. vivian From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 28 08:39:39 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:39:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? Message-ID: <1d9.24dc5c98.2e11334b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103065 In a message dated 6/28/2004 12:15:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, garyfredogal at hotmail.com writes: Better question yet: Who will remain standing at the end of the final battle? ============================ Sherrie here: Hmmmm....you're right - better question, indeed! Let's see: Hermione - as JKR's alter-ego, I think Hermione is the only one of the Trio with any sort of guarantee of survival. Ginny - she's already had her bout with TMR; I think we'll see her win through. OF the rest of the Weasleys, figure about half - but include Fred & George. I see them as the "Q" of the Order - and you don't waste your R&D people in battle, except as a VERY last resort. And don't include Ron among the survivors. I'm figuring Fred, George, Molly, & Charlie. Snape (SURPRISE!) - though I do see him undergoing an almost Scroogelike transformation (maybe not QUITE as drastic) Lupin - I don't know why on this - it's just a gut feeling that the last of the faithful Marauders will remain at the end. Sherrie (it's WAY too early to think!) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 28 08:47:20 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:47:20 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40E067B8.29997.32F69F9@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103066 On 27 Jun 2004 at 18:39, Tina Donaldson wrote: > Shaun Hately wrote: > > Harry doesn't need the experience of being a prefect. Ron does need it, because > > he has no confidence in himself and he needs on-the-job training to develop. I don't *think* I said this. I think an attribution has got scrambled somewhere. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 08:56:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:56:57 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103068 Tara wrote: I think most stuff is really just what it appears to be: James, Lily, and Sirius are really dead; Petunia and Dudley are really Muggles; Harry and Hermione are not related; everybody else is pretty much who they appear to be; and so on. Maybe we invent these notions because we'd like certain facts to be changed (Harry's parents not to be really dead, for a start). vmonte responds: I agree that Lily and James are dead. But I also think that there is one important thing that is being forgotten in all the time-travel posts (including mine). It's that whether you believe in a time-travel which is fixed, or not, you still cannot force people to behave the way you would like them to. People have free-will. If Harry's parents believed that the only way they could save Harry was for themselves to die, then they would choose to die, no matter what the interference. vivian From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 09:41:04 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:41:04 -0000 Subject: And More on Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla previously:- > > > >I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape > > >in classroom, though. :) > > > Robert wrote: > snip > The only fair way to measure if they have learned > > the subject is written exams administered by someone other than him > > and/or having the practical exam taken without him in the room > (IOW: > > As occurs in OOP). > > > Alla: > > I agree with you. If Neville and Harry did well on their OWLS, it > will be the best piece of evidence for me that they learned something > from Snape. On that day I will publicly acknowledge that academically > Snape is a good teacher :o). On the other hand, I will also think > that their performance is the best when Snape is not in the > classroom, so even if he put something in their heads, they cannot do > well with him being present in the classroom. So, that means for me > that he should not be in the said classroom (Let me repeat again for > all Snape apologists ready to jump at me - AT THE END of the series, > not now. :o). > > I will be the first one to acknowledge that without > Snape, "potterverse" will lose a lot. :o) Sue I vaguely recall that in the chapter of OOTP it said that Neville managed to produce a decent potion without Snape there. In all fairness, though, we can't blame Snape for all Neville's troubles. He has problems in other subjects too - Transfiguration, for example.McGonagall is a good teacher, but she yells at him too. I think his problems stem from his home life, initially - Snape just doesn't make it better, that's all. On the other hand, in OOTP, he works hard at the secret Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons and succeeds. As for Harry - let's face it, much as we love him, he isn't particularly academic. He's reasonable, but no genius and half the time he and Ron are borrowing notes from Hermione. The only thing he IS brilliant in is DADA and he's had to learn that the hard way, and fast, or he'd be dead. He's been lucky enough to have that private tutoring from Lupin in third year, which helped. Would he have succeeded in Potions if someone else had been his teacher? Probably, but he hasn't failed yet, even WITH Snape and if he'd had, say, McGonagall, he would still have been pestering Hermione for notes. :-) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 10:15:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:15:57 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103070 Good questions and good answers. I agree with most of KG, Brian and John wrote. I'd add that there are clearly not enough bad guys for all the good guys to show their merit. What about the Twins? What about all the DA members? But this shortage can be easily rectified if we through in a couple hundreds of dementors and some other dark creatures. Talking about dark creatures, who's best for fighting Nagini? How about Ron getting even for the attack on his father? And regarding the dementors, we don't know yet how to kill them. The Patronus only repels them. Anyone who finds out how to finish them off would do more than his share of the war effort. Also, I think Ginny still has a big open account with Tom from CoS. It's not only that he abused her, but his utter contempt for her. Her pleading were "boring" to him. I wouldn't mind at all if before the end she'll have a chance to stick the dagger in Voldy's guts and give it a good turn around its longitudinal axis. Metaphorically speaking, of course. But not TOO metaphorically. Neri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 10:44:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:44:27 -0000 Subject: Untapped Magical Potential (was: Is education a right ...) In-Reply-To: <40DFF7E5.16890.17A88F6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103071 Shaun Hately wrote: > The same may well apply in the Wizarding World - just because a > Wizard doesn't get into Hogwarts doesn't mean their education > necessarily ends. Del adds : just like it doesn't *start* with Hogwarts. We know that the kids learn to read, write, count and so forth *before* they get to Hogwarts. They have to, they are expected to. But I don't believe that all kids are taught only by their parents. Maybe Molly Weasley taught her kids, but I'm pretty sure someone like Narcissa Malfoy didn't. Maybe she hired a private teacher ? And I'll bet that there are wizarding families where both parents work outside the home, or even simply single-parent families where the parent *has* to work outside the home. So someone has to take care of all those kids. There must be some kind of school, not necessarily compulsory, but at least available for those kids who need it. So if there's something before Hogwarts that we haven't heard of, I don't see why there couldn't be something outside Hogwarts as well. Just because Harry doesn't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. After all, Harry is the one who didn't think of foreign wizards and foreign schools until he actually met them :-) So maybe someday he'll be taken aback when Seamus mentions his little brother who wasn't magical enough to be taken at Hogwarts and who is now training to be a window-cleaner at the MoM ;-) Del Del From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Mon Jun 28 11:06:39 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:06:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And More on Snape again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AC0EEA6-C8F3-11D8-A925-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103072 On Jun 28, 2004, at 5:41 AM, sbursztynski wrote: > > Sue > > I vaguely recall that in the chapter of OOTP it said that Neville > managed to produce a decent potion without Snape there. > > In all fairness, though, we can't blame Snape for all Neville's > troubles. He has problems in other subjects too - > Transfiguration, for example.McGonagall is a good teacher, but > she yells at him too. I think his problems stem from his home > life, initially - Snape just doesn't make it better, that's all. > On the other hand, in OOTP, he works hard at the secret Defence > Against the Dark Arts lessons and succeeds. > > As for Harry - let's face it, much as we love him, he isn't > particularly academic. He's reasonable, but no genius and half > the time he and Ron are borrowing notes from Hermione. Concerning Neville, McGonagall does tell him that he can pass transfiguration OWL(s). All he lacks is confidence. Snape, on the other hand, basically implies that Neville won't pass. I find this very annoying because from Harry's later point of view, Neville may have indeed passed potions. I could tolerate Snape as a teacher a bit better if he had said something like what McGonagall said. Concerning Harry, yes he's not academic, but he seems to be smart. (How smart?) On his own time, he doesn't seem to read or study anything other than DADA and Quidditch. Hermione is intelligent, but she also works hard at her subjects. She takes notes, pays attention in class, and is more inclined to follow the rules. Harry and Ron do what is necessary to pass. Sometimes children like Harry or Ron blossom later. Actually, it quite common for boys to take the same route with schooling that Harry and Ron have. Barbara (Ivogun) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 28 11:24:06 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:24:06 -0000 Subject: Conspiracies Unlimited (was Re: Neville and the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > > >>> Kneasy: I've marked Bill's card anyway. He'll fall victim to the > Weasley cull, IMO. <<< > > B: But why Bill out of all the Weasley kids? Because he's the oldest? > I thought that position was given to Percy already... > Kneasy: But he won't be the only one. Seven kids in one family? And allies/supporters of young Potter? Why so many? To allow for casualties while leaving enough to perform the grieving family huddle afterwards, that's why. Maybe Molly's Boggart was a foretaste of things to come with disposable Weasleys scattered hither and yon cluttering up the landscape. In post 98443 I gave a brief rationale for who among the Weasleys was most likely to end up on the wrong end of a green flash and decided it would be Bill and the twins, with Ginny and Percy as possible outsiders - though it would be fun if Ginny survived to join the WHIPLASH establishment. (Which she probably will when I get round to writing the TBAY.) > Bren: > And no, Fleur isn't even close to being clever and seductive as > Bella, I don't think. More like blonde-bimbo in Muggle slangs (sorry > if I offended anyone, I don't actually like blonde jokes). Bella has > the older-evil-woman thing going on. Stifler's mom anyone? Haha. > > Kneasy: No, she doesn't have half the dangerous allure of Bella. Bella is Circe, Fleur is Britney Spears - no competition. A few of us with vivid imaginations and no sense of shame have speculated that Harry might fall victim to Bella's attractions (aided perhaps by an Imperio! or two to allow him to salve his conscience afterwards). Now that would be a fascinating addition to the plot arc! It'd neatly round out his education, don't you think? Not very likely of course, but if Harry comes to a gruesome end in book 7 it's only fair that he's allowed to have a taste of some of the more, erm, interesting experiences of life, shall we say. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 11:37:51 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:37:51 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103074 Tara wrote: Yes! Thank you for noticing that. I've been reading all kinds of theories and ideas being tossed around on this list, and while most are quite interesting and creative, they are generally so far fetched and complex as to be completely unlikely to happen in canon. We hear the clip-clop and think zebra when it's really just horse. We all love the twists and surprises that Jo does include in her books, and we'd love to be able to predict the next big bombshell, but I think most stuff is really just what it appears to be: James, Lily, and Sirius are really dead; Petunia and Dudley are really Muggles; Harry and Hermione are not related; everybody else is pretty much who they appear to be; and so on. Maybe we invent these notions because we'd like certain facts to be changed (Harry's parents not to be really dead, for a start). There will certainly be unexpected events, but I think we make them more complicated than they need to be. Neri: I agree. I estimate about 80% will turn out to be what it appears to be, or what it is suggested to be by the most obvious clues. Only about 20% will be bombshells in the best of JKR's tradition. The question is, of course, WHICH 20%. Only two books to go, JKR's has an enormous number of plot threads waiting to be tied together. There are so many clues, and even if many of them will turn out to be just red herrings, they should still turn out to be red herrings in a satisfying way. There are so many promising characters that clearly still have to do what they were meant to do: Neville, Snape, Lupin, Wormtail, Tonks, Ginny, Luna, Percy, Viktor, Firenze. Even Moaning Myrtle. There must be a lot of convergence very soon. The most likely theories are those that tie together several different threads. I join Tara in this plea: simplify, simplify! Neri From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 28 11:37:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:37:41 -0000 Subject: Untapped Magical Potential (was: Is education a right ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103075 > Shaun Hately wrote: > > The same may well apply in the Wizarding World - just because a > > Wizard doesn't get into Hogwarts doesn't mean their education > > necessarily ends. > > Del adds : > just like it doesn't *start* with Hogwarts. We know that the kids > learn to read, write, count and so forth *before* they get to > Hogwarts. They have to, they are expected to. But I don't believe that > all kids are taught only by their parents. snip> > So if there's something before Hogwarts that we haven't heard of, I > don't see why there couldn't be something outside Hogwarts as well. > Just because Harry doesn't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't > exist. snip Potioncat Shaun has a very good post (103031) that I'm also responding to, but I'm not skilled enough to cut and paste it into this one. I think both Del and Shaun have very good ideas and it seems to me to fit with what we see in the books. I really don't think the 2 characters on the Knight Bus went to Hogwarts. It seems to me that JKR has given two quotes about this issue, and if I can find the time I will look for them. (Sorry, HP time has been curtailed with 3 kids at home.) I think she said before attending Hogwarts kids were taught at home or went to Muggle schools. I assume she was saying the Muggleborn went to Muggle schools. (World Chat Day?) I also think I've read that there are no other schools like Hogwarts in England. After Hogwarts, it seems, they go into their chosen fields and are trained at those locations. (Auror school, St. Mungo's) And according to what Neville said, it does sound as if there is some sort of entrance requirement...not sure how Crabbe and Goyle fit in. However, with Crabbe and Goyle we are told they aren't smart. (by Harry, I think) We aren't told they aren't good at magic. Did JKR say that the quill writes the name when the child is born? I wonder if the parents can get that information before the child is 11? I have one other, who knows? sort of thought. JKR set out to write a book about a boy suddenly discovering he is magic and attending a magic school. Although she worked out a lot of details, I'm not sure she concerned herself with all the details the fans have wondered about. We have afterall, had lots of time to wonder about it while she's been busy creating it. Potioncat From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Jun 28 12:16:06 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Jun 2004 12:16:06 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1088424966.275.42244.w56@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103076 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: If you were attending Hogwarts, what classes would you want to take? (created by drcarole) Choose as many as you like. o Ancient Runes o Arithmancy o Astronomy o Care of Magical Creatures o Charms o Defense Against the Dark Arts o Divination o Flying o Herbology o History of Magic o Muggle Studies o Potions o Transfiguration To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1286284 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 13:22:09 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:22:09 -0000 Subject: Conspiracies Unlimited (was Re: Neville and the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103077 Kneasy: > All in all, I have my doubts as to the likelihood of the Veela chorus > being the Third Imperio! - assuming that there was one. > If someone ttwisted my arm, I'd plump for Godric's Hollow; but > who placed it? The 'good' side, as an extra measure of protection > against the influence of Voldy? Or the 'baddies' - to make him more > susceptible? Jen: An Imperio on baby Harry that he never remembered or mentioned, then suddenly recalls at the graveyard? I guess I'm not much of a conspriracy theorist in training--that's just too way out there for my tastes. Besides, in the graveyard when Voldemort Imperio'd Harry, Harry recalls the 'feeling' for the third time in his life, not the actual curse. Since the feeling of the Imperio and the Veelas is a similar sensation, I'm putting my money on that. And any Imperio at Godric's Hollow would wear off long before Harry ever meets LV, unless Dumbledore trained Petunia in the fine art of the Unforgiveables. Hey, maybe that's why Harry was such a compliant kid ;). From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 28 15:23:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:23:29 -0000 Subject: And More on Snape again In-Reply-To: <3AC0EEA6-C8F3-11D8-A925-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103078 Barbara: > Concerning Neville, McGonagall does tell him that he can pass > transfiguration OWL(s). All he lacks is confidence. Snape, on the > other hand, basically implies that Neville won't pass. I find this very > annoying because from Harry's later point of view, Neville may have > indeed passed potions. I could tolerate Snape as a teacher a bit > better if he had said something like what McGonagall said. > >Potioncat: Well, I actually thought Snape was implying that Neville could pass the Potions OWLs. But I'm almost sure Neville didn't think that. I thought Snape was adding a little threat to keep him working. (Snape's form of motivation.) Potioncat: who wrote this without referring back to canon and hopes it made sense. (recalling Snape's opening speech in OoP.) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 28 15:27:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:27:17 +0100 Subject: 24 hours - again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103079 Another post with a lot of questions, not many answers and a bit of speculation. Many have posted theories on the lead-up to the events at Godric's Hollow (something I must get round to one of these days), but we really don't know very much about that. It's mostly Sirius and Peter each giving their own partial versions of what happened and why, with blame and self-justification to the fore. Not a lot to work on. Contrast that with the famous 24 hours that followed, that day when wizards seemed to be buzzing all over the place, actually *doing* things - what can be deduced here? Anything? Well, the timings are interesting, and who went where is even more interesting. What do we actually *know* about the Godric's Hollow incident and it's immediate aftermath? The straightforward bits: James and Lily were killed, Voldy vapourised, Harry got his scar, The house was reduced to rubble. Sirius turned up at GH Hagrid was sent to GH McGonagall went to Privet Drive DD went to Privet Drive Hagrid carries Harry to Privet Drive Meanwhile the WW goes on a bender, celebrating the fall of Voldy. One question that has greatly exercised the minds of posters - who broke the news? There seem to be two main approaches to that - either somebody else was there or there was some sort of warning device - a portrait, communicating mirror or some such. Personally I don't favour the 'artifact' approach - if there was something that plugged into DD's study (the most obvious and logical place) how did the news get out to the Diggles of this world so early? Owls were flocking all over the place by breakfast-time, just a handful of hours after the event. An aside - if, as we are informed in OoP there are so few of the WW in the neighbourhood of Privet Drive, why did Vernon see so many that morning? OoP chap. 8: "We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging besides Harry Potter...That situation has always been closely monitored, given...given past events." That statement itself is fascinating - it indicates that it wasn't just DD that was concerned with Harry's welfare, but that the Ministry was also involved, or at least interested enough to monitor the situation. But which events? The ones since Harry's return to the WW or going right back to the fall-out from GH? I'd guess the latter - didn't Harry recognise Dedalus Diggle in the Leaky Cauldron? Commenting that Diggle had once *bowed* to him in a shop? Diggle had recognised Harry on that occasion, and he doesn't seem the type to keep his mouth shut about meeting the WW's most famous missing celebrity. Unless he was instructed to - in advance. And remember - at the time of GH Fudge was not the Minister. No, I tend towards the 'Third Party' scenario, that there was somebody else at GH. The odds are against it being a DE - or there would be no reason to question the Longbottoms about the where-abouts of Voldy. Though if it was someone close to DD, it still seems odd that the news spread so fast. But if it was a betrayer, then spreading the news would be a good way to warn the DEs to keep their heads down, especially if this individual expected to be fully occupied or in hiding for a while. The favourites seem to be Peter, Lupin or Snape, with Sirius or the Longbottoms as outside chances. So, the house at GH blows up (why?) and Sirius arrives, or says he did. (If he's the 'Third Party' he never left), Hagrid arrives, sent by DD. When did Hagrid arrive? The natural assumption would be that it was quite late in the day - he'd want to hand over Harry to DD as fast as possible, not hang around a ruin for hours with a toddler on his hands. Not so, it seems. (See below.) Conversely Minerva, on her own initiative, arrives at Privet Drive early in the morning and waits for something to happen. Very strange. It was term-time (Halloween), but she leaves her teaching duties and chooses to sit in a cold street for 16 hours or so on the basis of what she calls rumours, rumours she can only have heard very early that morning. DD, with no teaching duties, disappears from the radar. He's certainly not at GH, so what was he doing? Where was he? At Hogwarts? But if he was why didn't Minerva just pop along to his study and ask a few questions? Why sit in a street, out of contact, all day? And she's not certain why they're in Privet Drive anyway - "And I don't suppose you're going to tell me *why* you're here, of all places?" Odderer and odderer - she's been here all day and doesn't know why. A case of a "Go to Privet Drive and don't ask questions," instruction from DD? Apparently not, Hagrid told her that DD would be there (another indication that Hagrid knew early on of the events). She was obviously expecting DD to turn up much sooner than he did. But DD's comment "Hagrid's late," this after looking at his odd watch indicates that there was a pre-arranged time for Hagrid to deliver Harry. DD knew he wouldn't arrive at Privet Drive until late. So where was DD all day and what was he doing? Hagrid finally arrives with Harry. DD recognises the significance and cause of Harry's scar, even though according to him "We may never know" what happened at GH. Dunno about you, but I find it suspicious that DD knows so much. Firstly he knows were Harry's non-magical sole relatives are and decides to dump Harry on them - arranges it all within a *very* short time of the news breaking. I sniff forward planning here. That he knew (or suspected) what might happen to the Potters in advance and made plans accordingly. But I would, wouldn't I? It adds credence to my interpretation of the Prophecy. Secondly he knows much more about what happened at GH than he lets on. No questions for Hagrid, except "No problems, were there?" He seems remarkably sanguine about the deaths of James and Lily , too. No questions about them either. Hardly any reaction at all, "I know...I know.." being his only epitaph for fellow members of the Order. And no questions about Voldy. None. It's almost as if he's spent the day interviewing witnesses or debriefing an agent. Now who would that be, I wonder? Kneasy From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 15:59:03 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:59:03 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > > It's almost as if he's spent the day interviewing witnesses or > debriefing an agent. Now who would that be, I wonder? Oh come on Kneasy. You're not wondering one bit. I know you're not and you know you're not. You and I both know exactly who he was...interviewing, don't we? Anyway...and here I go again after preaching about never giving any credance to anything JKR utters outside of the books themselves...she gave it away when she told us about that DE she had to write out, what was his name? Pyrites? He was supposed to meet VD at GH. Why did she write him out? (Writer's training kicking in here.)Because she had someone else there already. Someone who was supposed to meet VD there, yes, but also had another job prior to VD's arrival. Warning the Potters, perhaps? A warning that was arrogantly ignored. Do we need to wonder about the identity of the one who took over the role of this ill-fated Pyrites? Mel From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 16:13:03 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:13:03 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103081 I was thinking last night about Goblet of Fire and its upcoming movie. I'll apologize if this is deemed off topic, but I don't think it will be. We were allowed to discuss the PoA movie here for a few days, and I think most of us would agree that there is some significance to what scenes from the novels are included in the movies. How much significance is to be debated. But we have all wondered why JKR insisted that, for instance, James not be included in the opening shots of PS/SS. So, my proposal is this: if we, as a group, can reduce GoF to its most essential scenes--the ones that must be shown to tell the story--MAYBE we will be better able to appreciate the extras that are thrown into the movie. And maybe we'll have more fun reading significance into those bonus scenes. If they are going to present GoF as one movie, they'll have a lot of cutting to do. Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake task to be cut. What else? MaggieB--who really thinks this could be an interesting discussion if people will give it a shot From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 16:25:38 2004 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:25:38 -0000 Subject: Petunia and Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103082 So, I've been thinking about Lily and Petunia and the relationship that they had. Putting aside whether or not Petunia was a witch or is a witch or whatever I was wondering if Petunia's knowledge of the WW could have come from another source. Lily. We don't have any real information about the relationship the girls had, but I was thinking that maybe Lily and Petunia had a good relationship for a very long time. One thing that we know is that by the time the Potter's are killed Petunia wants nothing to do with her sister. By the beginning of PS/SS that much is clear. Vernon in fact seems afraid to bring Lily up. BUT, we have no idea what caused Petunia to be so resentful. We also have no idea what Lily's thoughts on her sister were. Maybe Lily hated Petunia as much as Petunia hated Lily. Where am I going with this? Well, there's very little canon to support anything, but I think that the split in their relationship happened after Lily left Hogwarts. What caused it? I could think of lots of things that could make sisters angry at one another (I have a sister, and there are days when I want to kill her, and I have seen rifts like this in other families). Maybe Petunia got her knowledge from Lily before they were estranged. I'm willing to bet that Petunia's anger comes from somewhere that had nothing to do with Lily being a witch. At least not directly. Christy From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 04:09:29 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:09:29 -0000 Subject: Gum Wrappers??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > I know that this has been talked about quite a bit but I dont recall > this coming up out of it. I was just reading some stuff and came > across this from mugglenet... > Drooble's Best Blowing Gum is an anagram of Gold bribe below St. > Mungos > > Jacqui Hi Jacqui, I can't take the credit for it but I do recall when that particular anagram was decrypted by one of our very own list members last August or September I believe. Valky From ashawr at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 07:53:32 2004 From: ashawr at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Asha=20Wolfe-Robinson?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:53:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry & his potions O.W.L In-Reply-To: <1c4.1affbad1.2e111226@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040628075332.89212.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103084 Amy wrote: > During the actual test, Snape probably won't be monitoring the exam... > none of the other teachers seem to monitor their own subjects...so Meliss9900 wrote: We already know that during the Potions OWL, Snape was not monitoring. In fact I don't think (after rereading) that the teachers were allowed in the room during the practical exams. Asha: During my GCSEs and my A levels, none of my subject teachers actually invigilated the exam room. I remember asking about it and one of them telling me that it's a common enough practice that teachers don't invigilate their subjects in case they gave a student an extra push in the right direction. Asha From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 16:43:51 2004 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:43:51 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103085 Well, I'm going to throw a few thoughts in here. It may help, it may not, but the post is very interesting. Kneasy: An aside - if, as we are informed in OoP there are so few of the WW in > the neighbourhood of Privet Drive, why did Vernon see so many that > morning? > OoP chap. 8: > "We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging > besides Harry Potter...That situation has always been closely > monitored, given...given past events." Christy: Intersting question. Although this may just be the massive amount of communication that was going on. The owls may have simply been flying through. Wizards tend to be quite scattered out it seems and communication by owl is one of the faster methods. This leads me to a different question however. Why owls? There are faster ways to communicate... fire(floo network), for example or portraits. Why use owls? Kneasy: > No, I tend towards the 'Third Party' scenario, that there was somebody > else at GH. The favourites seem to be Peter, Lupin or Snape, with Sirius or > the Longbottoms as outside chances. Christy: Well, Sirius should be out, if you believe his version of events. He didn't get there until afterwards. But the DE's would know something of the plan perhaps. Maybe Peter was there. Wouldn't Voldemort have needed him to find the house? But I doubt that Peter was responsible for spreading the news so fast. Is it possible that before Sirius left for GH he told DD something was wrong? Kneasy: > Conversely Minerva, on her own initiative, arrives at Privet Drive > early in the morning and waits for something to happen. (skip a bit) Apparently not, Hagrid told her that DD would be there Christy: Assuming Minerva was a key member of the Order then, why she's clueless is a good question. Assuming she knew the Potter's went into hiding maybe she went to the one place she expected DD to go, if the rumors were as bad as she'd heard (this leads me to a different point). Or maybe it was a prearranged plan (for both the Potters and the Longbottoms). Kneasy: I sniff forward planning here. That he knew > (or suspected) what might happen to the Potters in advance and made > plans accordingly. Christy: I agree. DD made advance plans. He may have made them simply as a safety net however. I mean, if you're worried about these people being killed, it makes sense. It also, however, lends some credence to the idea that whatever charm saved Harry was performed ahead of time and not in that instant before hand. Kneasy: > So where was DD all day and what was he doing? > Secondly he knows much more about what happened at GH than he lets on. > No questions for Hagrid, except "No problems, were there?" He seems > remarkably sanguine about the deaths of James and Lily , too. No > questions about them either. Hardly any reaction at all, "I know...I > know.." being his only epitaph for fellow members of the Order. And no > questions about Voldy. None. Christy: Or perhaps, DD had a spy who let him know that things were amiss. After Voldemort left, maybe the DE's leaked the plan (those who MAY have known) and it got to DD's spy (Snape?). Well that's a bit to think on, isn't it? Christy From bethg2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 15:51:54 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:51:54 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? In-Reply-To: <1d9.24dc5c98.2e11334b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103086 > Tina: > Who will remain standing at the end of the final battle? > Sherrie here: > Lupin - I don't know why on this - it's just a gut feeling that the > last of the faithful Marauders will remain at the end. I also think that Lupin is going to make it. (Probably complete bias. Is there a Lupin version of SAD DENIAL? ) I think that DD, Hagrid, and Snape are all pretty much doomed. I believe that somebody has to be around to pick up the pieces. Calm, gentle Remus is ideal. This is also why I think Minerva is safe. While I have no doubt that Remus would indeed die for Harry I don't think he'll get the chance, again because there are bigger fish to do this and only two books left. Besides, somebody has to help us out with the back story. As for everyone else: Yes, there are nine Weasleys for a reason. Percy seems pretty likely, although I think he is currently imperio'd and doesn't really need the redemption. I think either Bill or Charlie, and either Molly or Arthur is likely as well. Hopefully Arthur at least gets to take out Lucius in the process. Neville will survive, he seems right for a triumph. Hogwarts is likely the place for the final battle. If it actually takes the form of a full out battle I expect we will lose another professor, and possibly Parvarti, Lavender, Seamus or Dean. Some members of the DA as well. I think Colin Creevey has been a marked man for a long time and I suspect Mad-eye's luck may run out. Okay for something that started out as Remus adoration/denial a lot of people end up dead. Beth From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jun 28 17:01:54 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:01:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E04F02.10002@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103087 bethg2 at yahoo.com wrote: >>Tina: >>Who will remain standing at the end of the final battle? If it actually takes the form > of a full out battle I expect we will lose another professor, and > possibly Parvarti, Lavender, Seamus or Dean. Some members of the DA > as well. I think Colin Creevey has been a marked man for a long time > and I suspect Mad-eye's luck may run out. Can Pansy Parkinson and Millicent Bulstrode go, too? Jem From tmar78 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 17:35:19 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: <1088427683.6443.67808.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040628173519.81186.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103088 johnbowman19 wrote: Harry vs LV (avenge parents)But it will not be a regular duel. I can hardy imagine harry dueling up to DD and Voldemort's standard (like they did at the end of OoTP) by the time he is 17. This is where Harry and Voldemort's brother wands come in handy. Hell, it could even end up fist vs fist, 17 year old versus 60 year old. Tyler: I know you meant that last bit as a joke, but it got me thinking. What if it did somehow come down to hand-to-hand combat? After all, Harry did a pretty good job of beating up Sirius in the shrieking shack. And then he tackled a DE who was about to perform the AK curse during the DoM battle. Also, if I remember correctly, Harry once managed to jump onto the roof of his elementary school while being persued by Dudley. Is it possible that wizards can temporarily give themselves super-strength under certain conditions? *Imagines Harry punching LV so hard that he goes flying through a brick wall* :) ===== .backwards sentences say to used I !crap Oh !again go I There __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 17:38:11 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:38:11 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I was thinking last night about Goblet of Fire and its upcoming > movie. I'll apologize if this is deemed off topic, but I don't think > it will be. We were allowed to discuss the PoA movie here for a few > days, and I think most of us would agree that there is some > significance to what scenes from the novels are included in the > movies. How much significance is to be debated. But we have all > wondered why JKR insisted that, for instance, James not be included > in the opening shots of PS/SS. So, my proposal is this: if we, as a > group, can reduce GoF to its most essential scenes--the ones that > must be shown to tell the story--MAYBE we will be better able to > appreciate the extras that are thrown into the movie. And maybe > we'll have more fun reading significance into those bonus scenes. If > they are going to present GoF as one movie, they'll have a lot of > cutting to do. Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The > Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all > of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake > task to be cut. What else? > > MaggieB--who really thinks this could be an interesting discussion if > people will give it a shot Steph here: Sorry to disappoint, but in the Entertainment Weekly article they recently did on Harry Potter, they specifically talked about Daniel Radcliff enjoying the scuba diving lessons he's been taking, cause he's got about a month of underwater shooting to do. So, it sounds to me like the 2nd task will be in. From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 17:40:20 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:40:20 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006401c45d36$fca70d40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103090 I was thinking last night about Goblet of Fire and its upcoming movie. I'll apologize if this is deemed off topic, but I don't think it will be. We were allowed to discuss the PoA movie here for a few days, and I think most of us would agree that there is some significance to what scenes from the novels are included in the movies. ... Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake task to be cut. What else? MaggieB--who really thinks this could be an interesting discussion if people will give it a shot Sherry says I think the Yule ball can be cut. It doesn't add anything to the story except learning that Hagrid is half giant. That could be done some other way, or the ball could be shortened to a couple minutes screen time. The other things that happen at the ball is Percy filling in for Crouch, and Dumbledore mentioned the room or Requirement. But since the room won't be important till the next book, it could easily be left out. sherry G From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 18:10:25 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:10:25 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amycrn4230" wrote: > This is just a thought on Harry's Potions O.W.L. in OotP, but I > think he just may get an O(utstanding). After Snape stopped teaching > him Occlumency, Harry was worried how Snape would treat him, and > Harry says that... > > (page 660, American version)"Snape,meanwhile, seemed to have decided > to act as though Harry were invisible....and was pleased to find out > that when left well alone, he was able to concoct an Invigoration > Draught quite easily." > > During the actual test, Snape probably won't be monitoring the > exam... > none of the other teachers seem to monitor their own subjects...so > Harry may very well do a great job...he's smart enough, just has bad > luck concentrating when Snape is around... > Maybe he'll have more courage when he gets an "O" on the exam. > > IMHO.....Amy asian_lovr2: I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry could possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. Even when we factor in - - Snape's students generally achieve a 'High Pass' in their test (They are generally above average). - Snape wasn't in the room while the tests were administered, and therefore, wasn't able to harrass and distract Harry (or Neville). - Harry is smarter than he thinks. By Harry's own admission, the Potions tests were difficult, and he doesn't think he did well, but thinks he may have scraped by with a pass (Acceptable). Pg 631 UK HB Ed- "...Potions on Monday... which he was sure would be the downfall of is ambition to become an Auror. Sure enough, he found the written paper difficult,..." pg 631-632 UK HB Ed- "When Professor Marchbanks said, 'Step away from your cauldrons, please, the excamination is over,' Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail." Using American Muggle grades as an illustration, Harry thinks he may have scraped by with a low 'C'. I think Harry certainly did better than he thinks he did, but that would NOT be very likely to raise him much above a basic 'B'. To leap from 'avoided a fail' to the highest possible 'Outstanding' grade is just too great a leap to make. Harry is generally no better than OK at potions, making adjustments for Snape's persecution of him, and he is on par with the rest of the typical students. His potion, in the examples we see in the books, are usually very close to what they are suppose to be (usually based on color), and not as bad as the worst in the class, but neither as good as the best. Conclusion; he's in the middle, a typical average potions maker. To say Harry got an 'Outstanding' is roughly the same as saying that you believe that nearly every student in the class got an 'Outstanding', and I just don't see that happening. Snape's student are above average in Potions making skills, that puts them at a 'B' or 'Exceeds Expectation', not at an 'A' or 'Outstanding'. Others put forth the logic that Harry needs Potions to be an Auror, and the story needs Snape as an antagonist, but it doesn't take much imagination to find ways around those things. First, McGonagall didn't say that Potions was an absolute must to be an Auror, she suggested the most common classes and subjects that an Auror would typically need. I imagine that a student with overal outstanding ability, especially in DADA, demonstrated skill, and an 'Outstanding' OWL and NEWT in Herbology would be just a valuable, functional, and knowledgable as someone with a basic 'B' grade overal and a basic 'B' grade in Potions. Potions, afteral, is just applied Herbology (or very close to it). Note that the primary textbook for Potions is not a potions book but '1000 HERBS and Fungi'. Certainly, we all /want/ Harry to get an 'Outstanding' but I think it is just too great a leap for it to happen. Steve/asian_lovr2 From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 18:06:25 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:06:25 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > My other theory is that it refers to past events, specifically > Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" that can live is James and > Lily and "while the other survives" refers to Harry. That way the > Prophecy highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his parents > had to die for it to take effect. > I posted that last year too, mostly to the roar of thunderous > indifference. Ah, well. 'Twas ever thus. Too clever for my own good, > sometimes. > > vmonte responds: > > I think that you are right about what the prophecy is saying, Kneasy. > I don't think that DD is reading the prophecy correctly. The > prophecy seems to be the only thing that has stumped DD. With almost > everything else that goes on at Hogwarts and anything to do with > Harry he always knows too much information, way more than he should > know. He knows what Ron and Harry saw in the mirror of erised. He > knows that Ron and Harry were under the cloak in Hagrid's hut. He > knows, before term starts in OOTP, that Voldemort was going to have > access into Harry's mind, etc, etc. > > But with the prophecy he is completely clueless. Trelawny seems to be > something DD did not expect. He tells Harry that he was surprised to > hear the prophecy because when he met Trelawny she appeared to be > talentless. When he does hear her prophecy, he thinks it could be > about Neville or Harry. For someone who is supposed to know > everything, Trelawny seems to have thrown DD off his game. > > So perhaps Trelawny wasn't meant to happen. Did something change to > allow her to enter the picture? Or did someone else enter her into > the picture? Is she really a Seer, or a puppet? Is someone using her > as a conduit for their own evil plan? > > I would really like to know who was thrown out the night of > Trelawny's prophecy... > > vivian Kneazy and Vivian; I am so happy you both are continuing this discussion! I had read a few of these messages last night and I've been trying to word my thoughts ever since... I 100% agree with the fact the Dumbledore is assuming the prophesy's meaning...but I'm very interested in the neither can live while the other survives...I had immediatly thought of Harry's eyes....making me feel like Lily is still "living" through Harry. Something happened there...especially that we are constantly talking about how Voldemort told her to step aside...what dark lord does that?! By Vodemort taking Harry's blood in book 4, he unintentionally made himself mortal. (the gleam in Dumbledore's eye, perhaps)...and can now be killed with out turning into vapor and surviving yet again. Maybe Lily's soul can not rest while Voledmort lives and it will be her spirit as well as the spirit of "friendship (Neville) that will help take down the Dark Lord. Once that's done, I believe Harry's eye color will change and his scar will disappear. Stephanie From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 28 18:08:16 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:08:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blood and tapestries for my lord Voldemort (can't remember the original title) References: <1088383960.14597.33630.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c45d3a$e3d09300$a34b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 103093 Catlady wrote: >Which is why Steven/asian_lovr2 made up the term "fullblood" for the >ones who can' *prove* that they're "pureblood". In CoS, Ernie >Macmillan said: "I might tell you that you can trace my family back >through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as >pure as anyone's". Which, while raising the question of what he/JKR I'm always reminded when we talk about "purebloods" of the bit in Voltaire's "Candide" about "...he could produce no more than threescore and eleven quarterings in his arms; the rest of the genealogical tree belonging to the family having been lost through the injuries of time" and wonder exactly how many quarterings Ernie (or indeed Sirius) would bring to the table. It's also worth mentioning that it always seems to me that Ernie's saying that slightly nervously, almost as if he's not quite convinced that 9 generations is _quite_ enough to make him a pureblood. >means by 'warlock', suggests that Nine Generations is the definition >of "pureblood". OoP showed the Black Family Tapestry, going back to >the fifteenth century (1400s), so I immediately wondered whether the >reason it stopped there is that the very next ancestor back was a Or possibly that's the point that a shrewd individual invented and patented the "Family Tapestry" ("A must for all wizardly families of distinction and delicacy"!) >Muggle. How many generations fit in roughly 500 years depend on what >age the people tend to start child-bearing: it could range from 25 >generations if each of Sirius's ancestors was born when its parents >were 20, to 5 generations if each was born when its parents were 100. Usual definition of a "generation" in our world is 30 years - a WW one would depend on exactly how much longer they live. If we assume (as we often do) that wizarding folk live twice as long and their generation is 60 years, then Ernie's family would also go back 540 years, once again to the 15th century. That travelling tapestry saleswitch must have done a _very_ persuasive job! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jun 28 18:35:08 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:35:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103094 Steve wrote: >>> I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry could possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. Certainly, we all /want/ Harry to get an 'Outstanding' but I think it is just too great a leap for it to happen.>> Ali: Like Steve, I think it would probably be a stretch too far for Harry to get an Outstanding in his Potions OWL. It is possible, and a dramatic turnabout for Harry, but it isn't necessary simply to continue with the Snape/Harry interaction. There are other possibilities: a) Harry doesn't get "Outstanding", but Dumbledore forces Snape to take him anyway: I think that scenario is unlikely as showing too much overt favouritism. b) Snape is finally allowed to become the DADA teacher and a new potions teacher allows Harry and similar "good" students who achieve "exceeds expectations", to continue with Potions. I believe that Snape *will* become the DADA teacher at some time stage during Harry's time at Hogwarts. Dumbledore has always resisted Snape's application on the grounds it will prove too tempting for him, but this temptation will have to come at some point, and will be the ideal way to let Harry continue with Potions. Perhaps Snape will then be tempted to the Dark Side once again (if he has ever really left) and this will be the end of Dumbledore - who knows? On the subject of Defence Against the Dark Arts, I wonder if Harry will be awarded the "Outstanding" grade he surely earned? It is no coincidence that Umbridge had a "nasty smile playing around her wide, slack mouth" (OoP. p 630 UK edition) immediately after Harry's practical exam. Her smile cannot have meant good news for Harry, and I know I'm not alone in wondering whether the Ministry's corruption will allow them to downgrade Harry. Alternatively, of course, Umbridge will merely take credit for Harry's good work. Ali From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 18:38:24 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:38:24 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <006401c45d36$fca70d40$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > > I was thinking last night about Goblet of Fire and its upcoming > movie. I'll apologize if this is deemed off topic, but I don't think > it will be. We were allowed to discuss the PoA movie here for a few > days, and I think most of us would agree that there is some > significance to what scenes from the novels are included in the > movies. > ... Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The > Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all > of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake > task to be cut. What else? > > MaggieB--who really thinks this could be an interesting discussion if > people will give it a shot > > Sherry says > > I think the Yule ball can be cut. It doesn't add anything to the story > except learning that Hagrid is half giant. That could be done some other > way, or the ball could be shortened to a couple minutes screen time. The > other things that happen at the ball is Percy filling in for Crouch, and > Dumbledore mentioned the room or Requirement. But since the room won't be > important till the next book, it could easily be left out. > > sherry G So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done elsewhere. It makes me wonder, though, because I was convinced that the second task could go, why is it being included? From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 18:41:47 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:41:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > >>> I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry > could possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. > > Certainly, we all /want/ Harry to get an 'Outstanding' but I think > it is just too great a leap for it to happen.>> > > Ali: > > Like Steve, I think it would probably be a stretch too far for Harry > to get an Outstanding in his Potions OWL. It is possible, and a > dramatic turnabout for Harry, but it isn't necessary simply to > continue with the Snape/Harry interaction. > > There are other possibilities: > > a) Harry doesn't get "Outstanding", but Dumbledore forces Snape to > take him anyway: I think that scenario is unlikely as showing too > much overt favouritism. > > b) Snape is finally allowed to become the DADA teacher and a new > potions teacher allows Harry and similar "good" students who > achieve "exceeds expectations", to continue with Potions. > > I believe that Snape *will* become the DADA teacher at some time > stage during Harry's time at Hogwarts. Dumbledore has always > resisted Snape's application on the grounds it will prove too > tempting for him, but this temptation will have to come at some > point, and will be the ideal way to let Harry continue with Potions. > Perhaps Snape will then be tempted to the Dark Side once again (if > he has ever really left) and this will be the end of Dumbledore - > who knows? > > On the subject of Defence Against the Dark Arts, I wonder if Harry > will be awarded the "Outstanding" grade he surely earned? It is no > coincidence that Umbridge had a "nasty smile playing around her > wide, slack mouth" (OoP. p 630 UK edition) immediately after Harry's > practical exam. Her smile cannot have meant good news for Harry, and > I know I'm not alone in wondering whether the Ministry's corruption > will allow them to downgrade Harry. Alternatively, of course, > Umbridge will merely take credit for Harry's good work. > > Ali I'm with you about wondering about Harry's DADA O.W.L. I asked this question of the group about a year ago, and one person's response was that the smile could be attributed to Umbridge "knowing" that she was right about students being able to perform spells without ever practicing them. The smile to Harry could be a "I told you so" sort of smile. Personally, I don't believe so, but I thought I'd be fair to the others out there. MaggieB From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 18:44:34 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:44:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008101c45d3f$f5dd4b60$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103097 So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done elsewhere. It makes me wonder, though, because I was convinced that the second task could go, why is it being included? Sherry says Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and Bagman there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events surrounding the dark mark. As far as the second task is concerned, well, it is another way that fake moody helped Harry unknown by the others. And more Rita Sketer. Maybe, just for the sake of more action and adventure. Sherry G ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 28 18:46:08 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:46:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Reduction Discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103098 So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done elsewhere. It makes me wonder, though, because I was convinced that the second task could go, why is it being included? > > Gina : I would say because it shows Harry's "love of saving people" which is what LV plays on in book 5 and Hermione brings back up when saying that it could be a trap to get him to the DoM Gina - who doesn't think saving people is a bad quality and even being a big shipper thinks that the Yule Ball should be cut in lieu of the more important scenes BUT Winky sitting next to the empty chair may be important enough to add in. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 18:53:24 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:53:24 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <008101c45d3f$f5dd4b60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm > glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball > can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be > cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things > truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark > mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done > elsewhere. > > It makes me wonder, though, because I was convinced that the second > task could go, why is it being included? > > Sherry says > > Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and Bagman > there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events surrounding the > dark mark. > > As far as the second task is concerned, well, it is another way that fake > moody helped Harry unknown by the others. And more Rita Sketer. Maybe, > just for the sake of more action and adventure. > > Sherry G > > Steph here: I think that the 2nd task will remain b/c it sets up a lot most of all being: "relationships"...this is also the task when Harry earns the others respect...Harry saving Fluer's sister, Cedric/Cho, as well as "Harry's Mistake" of waiting for the others to arrive before he left...that shows alot about his character. > > From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 18:58:50 2004 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:58:50 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103100 JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates: "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time." So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! Here's the test-only link: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 Gorda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jun 28 19:18:16 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:18:16 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith > wrote: > > > > It's almost as if he's spent the day interviewing witnesses or > > debriefing an agent. Now who would that be, I wonder? > > > Oh come on Kneasy. You're not wondering one bit. I know you're not > and you know you're not. You and I both know exactly who he > was...interviewing, don't we? > Kneasy: Tut, tut. We're conducting an exercise according to the Socratic method, here. We ask questions until there is only one logical answer, gently leading the dubious and disbelieving to the ineluctable truth. Or my version of it. > Mel: > Anyway...and here I go again after preaching about never giving any > credance to anything JKR utters outside of the books > themselves...she gave it away when she told us about that DE she had > to write out, what was his name? Pyrites? He was supposed to meet VD > at GH. Why did she write him out? (Writer's training kicking in > here.)Because she had someone else there already. Someone who was > supposed to meet VD there, yes, but also had another job prior to > VD's arrival. Warning the Potters, perhaps? A warning that was > arrogantly ignored. > > Do we need to wonder about the identity of the one who took over the > role of this ill-fated Pyrites? > Kneasy: Pyrites? Would that be Ian Pyrites, the renowned fake who glisters? Interestingly enough when I tried to find him in Quick-Quotes nothing turned up. Dunno if I was entering the wrong search parameters. But anyway, we may have good reason to believe that there was someone else at GH. But, *sigh* there are some who still seem to think that there was a portrait, or some such in the Potter's back-bedroom - a hotline to DD. Sad, really. We must treat them kindly, gently admonishing them for falling into error and carefully institute their rehabilitation into polite society again. Such a worry. Cheer them up; encourage them with cries of "Well done, old thing!" when they start to suspect everyone in the plot of perpetrating vile deeds. Deducing the identity of the 'Third Party' is but the first faltering step on the long, tortuous path to full-blown paranoia. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 28 19:20:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:20:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103102 > asian_lovr2: > > I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry could > possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. Even when we factor in - > > - Snape's students generally achieve a 'High Pass' in their test > (They are generally above average). > Potioncat: Maybe I'm saying the same thing differently, but I thought Snape said his class had a high pass rate, which means a large number of his students pass the test or that very few fail. Of course, if most of his students pass with at least an A then a large number must get E and a large number must get O, (whatever the percentage of actual students that would be.) Oh dear, maths! Yes, come to think of it, I did say the same thing. And suddenly I wonder what his statement really meant. Does he have a high pass rate compared to previous Potions instructors? Or compared to the expected percentage? or compared to those who take OWLs who did not attend Hogwarts? or compared to the number who pass other Hogwarts courses? Or compared to Muggle chemistry tests....sorry who slipped that babbling potion into my tea? Potioncat (who thinks he made an E on the exam.) From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 19:36:34 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:36:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103103 > > Ali: > > > > Like Steve, I think it would probably be a stretch too far for > Harry > > to get an Outstanding in his Potions OWL. It is possible, and a > > dramatic turnabout for Harry, but it isn't necessary simply to > > continue with the Snape/Harry interaction. > > > > There are other possibilities: > > > > a) Harry doesn't get "Outstanding", but Dumbledore forces Snape to > > take him anyway: I think that scenario is unlikely as showing too > > much overt favouritism. > > > > b) Snape is finally allowed to become the DADA teacher and a new > > potions teacher allows Harry and similar "good" students who > > achieve "exceeds expectations", to continue with Potions. > > > > I believe that Snape *will* become the DADA teacher at some time > > stage during Harry's time at Hogwarts. Dumbledore has always > > resisted Snape's application on the grounds it will prove too > > tempting for him, but this temptation will have to come at some > > point, and will be the ideal way to let Harry continue with Potions. snip Jason now: My thought is that if the trend of getting new characters as DADA teachers is over, we'll see first Snape in year 6 and then Dumbledore in year 7. > > > > On the subject of Defence Against the Dark Arts, I wonder if Harry > > will be awarded the "Outstanding" grade he surely earned? It is no > > coincidence that Umbridge had a "nasty smile playing around her > > wide, slack mouth" (OoP. p 630 UK edition) immediately after > Harry's > > practical exam. Her smile cannot have meant good news for Harry, > and > > I know I'm not alone in wondering whether the Ministry's corruption > > will allow them to downgrade Harry. Alternatively, of course, > > Umbridge will merely take credit for Harry's good work. > > > > Ali > > I'm with you about wondering about Harry's DADA O.W.L. I asked this > question of the group about a year ago, and one person's response was > that the smile could be attributed to Umbridge "knowing" that she was > right about students being able to perform spells without ever > practicing them. The smile to Harry could be a "I told you so" sort > of smile. Personally, I don't believe so, but I thought I'd be fair to the others out there. > > MaggieB Jason: Perhaps that smile was because she planned to doctor the grades and have Harry look stupid again BUT, given the events following the exams and Umbridges mental injuries? and removal from Hogwarts, the vindication of Dumbledore and Harry, she never had a chance to meddle with his grades and now it's too late. Jason From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 19:39:34 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! Message-ID: <20040628193934.12419.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103104 28June04 Tara wrote: "...We all love the twists and surprises that Jo does include in her books, and we'd love to be able to predict the next big bombshell, but I think most stuff is really just what it appears to be: James, Lily, and Sirius are really dead; Petunia and Dudley are really Muggles; ...There will certainly be unexpected events,...Anyway, it's quite entertaining to imagine what's coming next, but Ithink she makes her clues relatively clear (Mark Evans, Neville's wand something being up with the DADA job so that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to take that position)." Paula now: Good point, Tara. I agree with you that JKR does indeed make her clues pretty clear, except on the business with Dudley and Petunia. Petunia's sudden revelation of knowledge about the Dementors and Azkaban is really a red flag, IMHO. Don't have the book here with me now, but I do remember the whole tone and mood of the scene changing after her revelation. Must have been Uncle Vernon's reaction. Plus, Uncle Vernon's consistent vehement reaction against anything to do with witchcraft has ALWAYS been suspicious to me--how the gentleman doth protest. Personally, I'd be willing to bet a nickle or so that we'll find out something significant re: the true natures of Petunia and Dudley. Ever consider the fact that Petunia, like Lily is a flower? This seems to suggest something too, but haven't the foggiest what--any ideas? Dudley, maybe from dud--a failure? And Vernon, must look that one up. JKR tends to tell us something about characters through their names. Humm--this could be another thread... ~Paula Gaon See the Magical Creatures. http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 They are all together now. "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 28 19:47:31 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:47:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103105 Paula now: Good point, Tara. I agree with you that JKR does indeed make her clues pretty clear, except on the business with Dudley and Petunia. Petunia's sudden revelation of knowledge about the Dementors and Azkaban is really a red flag, IMHO. Don't have the book here with me now, but I do remember the whole tone and mood of the scene changing after her revelation. Must have been Uncle Vernon's reaction. Plus, Uncle Vernon's consistent vehement reaction against anything to do with witchcraft has ALWAYS been suspicious to me--how the gentleman doth protest. Personally, I'd be willing to bet a nickle or so that we'll find out something significant re: the true natures of Petunia and Dudley. Ever consider the fact that Petunia, like Lily is a flower? This seems to suggest something too, but haven't the foggiest what--any ideas? Dudley, maybe from dud--a failure? And Vernon, must look that one up. JKR tends to tell us something about characters through their names. Humm--this could be another thread... ~Paula Gaon Gina now: Maybe Vernon is an animagus - Vernon the vermin or aka Vernon the varmint! See the Magical Creatures. http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 They are all together now. "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 19:54:02 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:54:02 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > Conversely Minerva, on her own initiative, arrives at Privet Drive > early in the morning and waits for something to happen. Very strange. > It was term-time (Halloween), but she leaves her teaching duties and > chooses to sit in a cold street for 16 hours or so on the basis of what > she calls rumours, rumours she can only have heard very early that > morning. I have not read or posted here in a while now, but here is my take. Hagrid, Diggle, McGonnagal... They were all members of the original OOP I believe. Likely Dumbledore was not at Hogwarts when the attack happened but at the headquarters (whereever that may have been) and notified the members on hand what happened then summoned Hagrid to get the baby (from whom McGonnagal would get a sketchy report). Diggle probably was there and that was how the news and fireworks started. How did Dumbledore know? I don't have the books handy, but in SS he consults a clock with 12 hands to the whereabout of Hagrid. We have seen a clock like that at the Weasleys - with a hand representing where and in what state each Weasley is at any time. It is reasonable to assume that DD has a similar clock programmed to the 12 most critical people he needs to keep track of, namely, the Potters, Hagrid and ...? So he finds out what happens right away and appoints Hagrid to get the baby. Hagrid is the best person for the job because he is so physically powerfull, seems to be pretty immune to hostile spells (see OOP) and he trusts him above all others. > Odderer and odderer - she's been here all day and doesn't know why. A > case of a "Go to Privet Drive and don't ask questions," instruction I think she heard he was going there second hand from Hagrid. That would make sense if Hagrid and McGonnagal were at school but Dumbledore was elsewhere. Hagrid probably just told her where they'd meet but not when (remember he is quite distractable in the best of times let alone at such a summons). > Dunno about you, but I find it suspicious that DD knows so much. > Firstly he knows were Harry's non-magical sole relatives are and > decides to dump Harry on them - arranges it all within a *very* short > time of the news breaking. I sniff forward planning here. That he knew > (or suspected) what might happen to the Potters in advance and made > plans accordingly. But I would, wouldn't I? > It adds credence to my interpretation of the Prophecy. Clearly he had that pre-planned since the blood-based protection was applied to Harry ahead of the attack. If DD had his clock tracking all 3 Potters, he'd know the parents were killed (and probably how) but the baby survived. It's not too hard to put two and two together especially because he was involved in putting the blood protection spell on Harry in the first place. > No questions for Hagrid, except "No problems, were there?" He seems > remarkably sanguine about the deaths of James and Lily , too. No > questions about them either. Hardly any reaction at all, "I know...I > know.." being his only epitaph for fellow members of the Order. And no > questions about Voldy. None. Again, since he planned the blood protection spell, knew (from the clock) what caused the deaths of the Potters, he knew what happened. Clearly both he and the Potters anticipated the attack and had already prepared the defense knowing their deaths would be the result - and willing to accept the consequences. Salit From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 19:57:14 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:57:14 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103107 > Kneasy: > Pyrites? Would that be Ian Pyrites, the renowned fake who glisters? > Interestingly enough when I tried to find him in Quick-Quotes nothing > turned up. Dunno if I was entering the wrong search parameters. > > But anyway, we may have good reason to believe that there was someone > else at GH. But, *sigh* there are some who still seem to think that there > was a portrait, or some such in the Potter's back-bedroom - a hotline > to DD. Sad, really. We must treat them kindly, gently admonishing them > for falling into error and carefully institute their rehabilitation into polite > society again. Such a worry. Cheer them up; encourage them with cries > of "Well done, old thing!" when they start to suspect everyone in the plot > of perpetrating vile deeds. Deducing the identity of the 'Third Party' is > but the first faltering step on the long, tortuous path to full- blown > paranoia. Jason: What about those of us who think V got the news from wormtail while Snape was in the room? Maybe Im the only one? Upon making his exit, Snape immediately gets word to DD that Voldemort has the potters info. You might say that Snape would then know that Peter betrayed the Potters. Maybe. But would Snape bother to correct them when Sirius was caught "red handed?" I don't think so. But maybe Snape didn't know Peter was the secret Keeper. Perhaps he arrived shortly thereafter and then learned Voldy somehow knew. Your query as to why the Potters home was in rubble? Well, because James fought Voldemort. Spells seem to cause lots of damage when they hit something. They destroy headstones in graveyards, reduce tables to rubble, set desks ablaze, blow chunks off statues. Seems a fight to the death between two powerful wizards would cause plenty of damage to reduce the Godrics Hollow home to what could be referred to as "rubble." Jason From Lynx412 at AOL.com Mon Jun 28 19:57:49 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:57:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103108 In a message dated 6/28/2004 3:39:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Jason: > Perhaps that smile was because she planned to doctor the grades and > have Harry look stupid again BUT, given the events following the > exams and Umbridges mental injuries? and removal from Hogwarts, the > vindication of Dumbledore and Harry, she never had a chance to > meddle with his grades and now it's too late. That is the most logical explanation. And we can only hope it's too late for any of her plans to affect Harry's grades. Still, with her comment on getting info from Lucius Malfoy and his -implied- pull with the Ministry...and we suspect that the Ministry is riddled with DEs, anything is possible. And while it is less 'bangy', Harry being pulled from Privet Drive to retake his OWLs, or meet with the testers again to correct his grades is a possible beginning, one which would require him to leave the protection of Privet Drive, making him accessible to attack. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:09:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:09:03 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: <20040628173519.81186.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103109 Tyler: I know you meant that last bit as a joke, but it got me thinking. What if it did somehow come down to hand-to-hand combat? After all, Harry did a pretty good job of beating up Sirius in the shrieking shack. And then he tackled a DE who was about to perform the AK curse during the DoM battle. vmonte replies: What if by the time Harry meets Voldemort for the final countdown fight, Voldemort looks like young Tom Riddle/Harry again? What if Harry's blood and Tom Senior's bones are slowly bringing him back to his pre-Voldemort human form? vivian From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:10:15 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:10:15 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103110 I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a red herring? MaggieB From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:20:17 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! Message-ID: <20040628202017.48787.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103111 28June04 Gina wrote: Maybe Vernon is an animagus - Vernon the vermin or aka Vernon the varmint! Paula Now: Just looked it up. Vernon means "youthful". Now what could that possibly hint? Immature, maybe? He does tend to fly off the handle. Don't know, now maybe I'm going off on the deep end. ~Paula Gaon See the Magical Creatures. http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 They are all together now. "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 20:22:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:22:31 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103112 Mel: > Anyway...and here I go again after preaching about never giving any > credance to anything JKR utters outside of the books > themselves...she gave it away when she told us about that DE she had > to write out, what was his name? Pyrites? He was supposed to meet VD > at GH. Why did she write him out? (Writer's training kicking in > here.)Because she had someone else there already. Someone who was > supposed to meet VD there, yes, but also had another job prior to > VD's arrival. Warning the Potters, perhaps? A warning that was > arrogantly ignored. > > Do we need to wonder about the identity of the one who took over the > role of this ill-fated Pyrites? Jen: There was something else to the Pyrites story--he was "Voldemort's servant and meeting Sirius at the Potter's house" in one of JKR's first drafts. What was that all about? Sirius wouldn't meet with a known servant of Voldemort right in front of the Potter's House (and certainly not with Snape). So Pyrites and the Muggle, who was initially drafted to play the betrayer, were rolled into one person-- Peter. Scenario 1: Peter invited Sirius to the Potters for some trumped up reason, expecting Sirius to be killed with the Potters. Then no one would have any doubt that Sirius betrayed the Potters by bringing Voldemort to Godric's Hollow. But Sirius got there too late and Peter fled as soon as the house started blowing up. Scenario 2: Peter pretended to be Lupin and sent a message by owl to Sirius, saying the Potters are in trouble and need help fast. Sirius, suspecting Spy!Lupin is getting cold feet about helping kill two of his best friends, goes to GH too late. Again this would be a ruse to get Sirius killed in a way that looked like he was in league with Voldemort. In these two scenarios, Peter would be the one who goes to Dumbledore with the news about the Potters, expecting to tell him Sirius the betrayer is also dead. Instead, he only reinforces the idea that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper and therfore the betrayer. Scenario 3: Another thought to add to the 'third person at Godric's Hollow' debate: Was this the same person who overheard part of the Prophecy? Surely whatever Voldemort learned about the Prophecy he kept between himself and the eavesdropper. So that person must have been the same one to accompany him to Godric's Hollow. Snape is the most likely candidate here. But Snape, finally unnerved by what Voldemort was asking him to do, turns spy and tries to warn the Potters first. He would then be the one to go to Dumbledore. Therefore, my short list is Peter or Snape. Jen Reese (The information about Pyrites is on JKR's website, under Extra Stuff/Edits/First Chapter of Philosopher's Stone) From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:22:35 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:22:35 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103113 Gorda wrote: "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time." So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! vmonte responds: I'm confused. How does your comments change the order of the parents deaths? Voldemort's wand shows the victims of his spells in reverse order. From most recent attack to the earliest. James was killed before Lily. He comes out of the wand first, then Lily who was killed after. (At least that is all the victims we know of since H & V's wands broke connection after Lily came out.) vivian From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 20:28:29 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:28:29 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: <604CD837-C50B-11D8-B7C9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103114 Kneasy wrote: > Why the hell did Crouch!Moody teach Harry to resist the Imperius > Curse? > > Surely a vulnerable Harry would be a more attractive proposition > for Voldy and his merry crew of hench-wizards? > Why make your enemy stronger? No reason at all (unless he was as > claimed following DD's instructions and even then he could still > have left Harry vulnerable somehow). SSSusan: I think one possibility was that Couch!Moody was merely trying to discern how/whether Harry was susceptible.... But as for why he might TEACH him to resist, perhaps he was trying to be sure he'd be well-skilled enough to survive 'til the final task. Wasn't that the goal--to get Harry ALIVE to the final task, so he could get to the Portkey and be whisked away to an awaiting Voldy? Maybe Crouch!Moody wanted him to learn *enough* to make it to that point? Kneasy: > No, I don't think that this little wrinkle (Imperio!) was > introduced with Harry in mind at all, at least not directly. What > readers tend to miss is that most if not all of the rest of the > class remain susceptible to the curse. As a plot device it's > critical use is still to come. > > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > (probably) the next book? IMO Ron, poor bugger, is hot favourite. SSSusan: Ron & Hermione have been suggested lots, and of course they do seem likely candidates. What about NEVILLE, though?? I could see it.... Siriusly Snapey Susan, back from vacation and only a mere 800 posts behind. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 20:41:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:41:47 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103115 Kneasy: > > So who among Harry's support group is going to be Imperio!ed in > > (probably) the next book? boyd: > Kneasy, you old dog! Excellent thought--such a concept hadn't even > occurred to me. > > While Ron would appear to be the frontrunner, don't count out the > big bangyness of *Krum* (who transfers to Hogwarts, becomes captain > of the Gryf quiddich team and kicks Ron off, romances Hermione to > try to lure her and Harry to their dooms, sets up Good!Snape for > the fall, and then turns out to be GoodButImperio'd!Krum). But the > other question is: who does the Imperio'ing? Someone close enough to > control them, someone like...the new DADA (not Snape)? SSSusan: Except that Krum was in his final year at Durmstrang when Harry was in 4th year. So by Book 6, Krum would've been out of school for over a year--wouldn't be allowed to transfer, would he? Though he could come to Hogwarts as an instructor! :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From probono at rapidnet.com Mon Jun 28 20:50:47 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:50:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order > (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what > appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all > of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a > red herring? > > MaggieB I do not know if it is proper to post a reply here, but I'm sure the kindly listelves will point me in the right direction. I love the fact that it is just these 7 simple words. Nowhere does it say it is the book 6 title. So, it could be the title or it could be a clue to the title OR it could be a clue to something else entirely! But in the spirit of JKR and her website, I would hazard a guess it is not just a red herring. So, anyway, I'm concentrating on the half-blood Prince part. Is it someone we've met before? Is it Harry? Is it someone else? Prince of what/where exactly? The obvious interpretation of "half-blood" would be half-wizard, half-muggle, but it also could mean a half-breed, or even sharing one parent only (mother or father, but not both). Could this half-blood be related to Harry? Immediately, I pictured Mark Evans. probono From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:50:10 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:50:10 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order > (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what > appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all > of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a > red herring? > > MaggieB MaggieB, Just figured the bricks out and I am more confused than ever! I am afraid of believing what was shown to us...only becuase of the many hackers and the past false titles, plus, Peeves makes his presence known, so is this one of his little games????? Too exciting if it's real!! Stephanie From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:51:37 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:51:37 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103118 Hello to all, it's been months since I've posted, but I figured this was a special occasion. Supposedly, the name of the sixth book is going to be "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince". This title can be found behind the infamous locked door on J.K. Rowling's official web site. The obvious conclusion one may reach upon hearing this information is that the Half-Blood Prince would be either Harry or Voldemort, as they are the prominent half-bloods in the series. And that if it were Harry, the title would essentially say "Harry Potter and Harry Potter", which is a bit too redundant to be entirely feasible. Therefore, one may conclude that the half-blood prince is Voldemort. However, with a title like "Harry Potter and Voldemort" it would seem to foreshadow some kind of final battle between the two of them, which we know won't happen until book seven. My next thought was that perhaps Voldemort had a son. However, I don't think Jo's vision of the character of Voldemort includes him ever having loved, because she has painted him as the epitome of evil, and in literature, these are often opposites. In addition, the power Harry has that Voldemort knows not is supposedly the power of love. He could have fathered a child without having loved, you might argue, but I don't think such topics would be dealt with in a children's series. Then, the thought crossed my mind that perhaps this half-blood prince is the mystery we know as Mark Evans. We can infer by his age, name, and supposed insignificance, having been mentioned in passing, that he will enter Hogwarts as a first-year next year. We also know nothing about his parentage. He is most likely related in some way to Lily, who was muggle-born, as J.K.R. wouldn't have given him that last name for no reason. A while ago I posted a theory, originated on MuggleNet.com, on Severus Snape. The letters in "Severus Snape" can be re-arranged to form "Perseus Evans". The theory continues from there, and some of you may remember it. If not, I will gladly re-post it, but this post is already getting too long. Anyway, the fact that Mark's last name is Evans probably means that his father, rather than his mother, was the one bearing this name. Perhaps it is Snape, perhaps it is someone we haven't met yet. But anyone related to the Evans family is most likely of completely Muggle parentage, so if I have made correct assumptions so far, that Mark Evans is a half-blood and his father is muggle-born, then it logically follows that his mother would have been a pure-blood witch. According to Sirius, all of the pure-blood wizarding families are interrelated, and her name may have been mentioned in the seemingly insignificant passage when Harry and Sirius were perusing the Black family tree. If anyone has any other suggestions of who this prince is, assuming this is the accurate title, I am very interested in them. In addition, if anyone has anything to add that I have overlooked or forgotten about the parentage of this seemingly insignificant child, I ask them to also put these theories forward. It's only speculation, but it seems the logical conclusion. Thanks, Debra From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:51:49 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:51:49 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order > (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what > appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all > of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a > red herring? GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title for CoS. From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:55:28 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:55:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order > > (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what > > appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and > all > > of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > > Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it > a > > red herring? > > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title for CoS. REALLY?! I've never heard that. Would love to know more! Steph From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 20:57:16 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:57:16 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <008101c45d3f$f5dd4b60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103121 rzl46 wrote: > So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm > glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball > can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be > cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things > truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark > mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done > elsewhere. > Sherry says: > Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and > Bagman there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events > surrounding the dark mark. Eustace_Scrubb: While I think the World Cup(the matches themselves) aren't especially important, the constellation of important people/events/things that are introduced there is pretty large. We already have the Dark Mark, Winky, Crouch Sr., Bagman, and veelas as you've noted. Let's add Viktor Krum to that list, and Prior Incantato. Also, and I think this is quite important, this is where Harry is introduced to the portkey as a transportation method. And I suppose this won't make it into the movie, but this is where we start to get the idea that the Death Eaters really could be a danger to muggles (OK, maybe the Riddle House does that well enough). So while I think the quidditch action can and probably will be kept quite minor (sorry, sports fans), I think the event will make it into the movie. I do think the whole Fred/George/Bagman/Goblin subplot probably goes. I see that the role of Cedric has been cast...I was almost wondering if the movie makers might not decide to "kill the spare" and make Harry the lone Hogwarts champion. Now apparently the Dursleys do not appear in the GOF movie. If it starts at the Burrow, what happens to the introductory material about Little Hangleton and Frank Bryce? Does Harry have his "dream"/vision at the Burrow? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 20:58:59 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:58:59 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103122 Oooh, what a fun post! Thanks MaggieB for posting!! >>> Sherry G wrote: > I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be > cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things > truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the dark > mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done > elsewhere. <<< Brenda now: Hmm. I think Quidditch World Cup scene (the actual game) will be included, perhaps a bit shorter than the amount of Quidditch we saw in PoA. 'Always Quidditch' - as a tribute to HP movies so far. After all, sports is the "unifying" element of Muggle world and WW (according to JKR) I would personally LOVE to see that "bloke wearing kilt and poncho together" or that old guy wearing a flower-pattered night gawn because it makes his "privates feel...". Enough said ;P Or at least, I hope the wizards dress up in very FUNNY combination of Muggle clothing in GoF. Malfoy & co were dressed in PERFECT Muggle clothing in PoA movie and it *really* bothered me. Malfoy of all people, pulling off perfect Muggle look!! I thought DEs all hated Muggles. It's against the Slytherin ideology, I think. I wonder why JKR didn't object to that. >>> Gina: > I would say because it [the second task] shows Harry's "love of saving people" which is what > LV plays on in book 5 and Hermione brings back up when saying that it could be a trap to get him to the DoM <<< Bren: Definitely. Or perhaps Merpeople play bigger role in Book 6&7, DD seems to be on very good term with them, whereas VM does not (speculation on my part). I wonder how much of Riddle House scene will be cut? Bren From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon Jun 28 21:01:36 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:01:36 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Gorda wrote: > > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's > parents have come > out of the > wand? > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast > and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he > is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, > then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very > sleep-deprived at the time." > > So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have been > speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! > > vmonte responds: > > I'm confused. How does your comments change the order of the parents > deaths? Voldemort's wand shows the victims of his spells in reverse > order. From most recent attack to the earliest. James was killed > before Lily. He comes out of the wand first, then Lily who was > killed after. (At least that is all the victims we know of since H & > V's wands broke connection after Lily came out.) > > vivian Ally: But if it was reverse order from the most recent to the earliest, Lily should have come out of the wand before James, because she was killed after him. It should have been Cedric, Lily, James if it was in reverse order, not Cedric, James, Lily. Later versions of the book had Lily come out first, I believe. Where are you getting this quote Gorda? I think that's a misprint of what she said, maybe. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 28 21:04:09 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:04:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who vs whom??/Who will be left standing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103124 In a message dated 6/28/2004 12:52:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bethg2 at yahoo.com writes: Percy seems pretty likely, although I think he is currently imperio'd and doesn't really need the redemption. ================== Sherrie here: JKR has shot this down, when she said in her WBD chat that Percy was indeed acting under his own power. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:05:22 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:05:22 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103125 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > > > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right > order (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a red herring? > > > > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title for CoS. > > REALLY?! I've never heard that. Would love to know more! > Steph In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom Riddle seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long since forgotten! :-) THoughts? Jason From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:07:06 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:07:06 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103126 > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title for CoS. Yes, but we had already been told that. And she's using a chapter she has attempted to use before; I forget whether or not she tried to use it in CS. But if this is the legitimate title of book six, and it also was a tried-and-failed title of CS, which deals predominantly with Tom Riddle, then it follows semi-logically that the half-blood prince that may or may not make an appearance in book six is Tom Riddle, the younger version of the "King", Lord Voldemort. (Actually, are sons of lords also known as princes? That might point us in a different direction.) But how would Tom Riddle make another appearance? Perhaps in his schoolboy days he created another preservation of himself, besides the diary, that can be fetched from the Malfoy manor's ... secret hiding place that I forget where it is located? Or perhaps we're still on the wrong track. Or perhaps this isn't the title at all. But it'd be great if you could all just bear with me for a second and pretend it is so we can do what Potter fans do best, and theorize. :) ~Debra From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:10:29 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:10:29 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103127 > Jason: > In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor > Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his > birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom Riddle > seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long since > forgotten! :-) Debra: That's true, that was mentioned. However, I think that was just foreshadowing to the fact that Harry had met him before, with a different name, and had yet to find out who he really was. Or perhaps the entire opening of GF, including the mystery of the Riddle family, was part of Harry's dream that made his scar hurt for the first time since SS/PS, and therefore he *had* already heard the name before. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jun 28 21:16:53 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:16:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103128 > Jason: > In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor > Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his > birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom Riddle > seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long since > forgotten! :-) Debra: That's true, that was mentioned. However, I think that was just foreshadowing to the fact that Harry had met him before, with a different name, and had yet to find out who he really was. Or perhaps the entire opening of GF, including the mystery of the Riddle family, was part of Harry's dream that made his scar hurt for the first time since SS/PS, and therefore he *had* already heard the name before. Gina: I still think Petunia has something to do with LV. Maybe she did know him or told something on Lily that she shouldn't in hopes of him hurting her. I do not really think LV is Dudley's father or anything, but it still gets me that Harry remembered Tom in a friendly manner. Was LV at some point a friend to someone before going bad? Does he HAVE a son that maybe Harry knew at some point - maybe there is another TR Jr. that lives in Little Whinging that went to school with Harry long ago and thus the Ministry comment about the situation in Little Whinging regarding other wizards living there??? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:15:58 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:15:58 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > > Jason: > > In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor > > Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his > > birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom > Riddle > > seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long since > > forgotten! :-) > > Debra: > That's true, that was mentioned. However, I think that was just > foreshadowing to the fact that Harry had met him before, with a > different name, and had yet to find out who he really was. Or perhaps > the entire opening of GF, including the mystery of the Riddle family, > was part of Harry's dream that made his scar hurt for the first time > since SS/PS, and therefore he *had* already heard the name before. Steph: What was the final decision in regards to Tom Riddle being the heir to Slytherin? Could that be where the "prince" is coming from? But, we also know VERY little about either side's family. It could be Harry...through a technicality. I still don't know how everyone knows about Halfblood Prince being the COS origional title. Can someone point me in the right direction....I'd love to know more. Stephanie From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:18:11 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:18:11 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103130 vmonte responds: I'm confused. How does your comments change the order of the parents deaths? Voldemort's wand shows the victims of his spells in reverse order. From most recent attack to the earliest. James was killed before Lily. He comes out of the wand first, then Lily who was killed after. (At least that is all the victims we know of since H & V's wands broke connection after Lily came out.) Ally: But if it was reverse order from the most recent to the earliest, Lily should have come out of the wand before James, because she was killed after him. It should have been Cedric, Lily, James if it was in reverse order, not Cedric, James, Lily. Later versions of the book had Lily come out first, I believe. Where are you getting this quote Gorda? I think that's a misprint of what she said, maybe. vmonte again: You're right! The information by the way comes directly from JKR's website, FAQs. This is a pretty huge mistake isn't it? Odd... vivian From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:23:26 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:23:26 -0000 Subject: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > asian_lovr2: > > > > I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry > > could possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. Even when we > > factor in - > > > > - Snape's students generally achieve a 'High Pass' in their test > > (They are generally above average). > > > Potioncat: > Maybe I'm saying the same thing differently, but I thought Snape > said his class had a high pass rate, which means a large number of > his students pass the test or that very few fail. ...edited... > > And suddenly I wonder what his statement really meant. Does he have > a high pass rate compared to previous Potions instructors? Or > compared to the expected percentage? or compared to those who take > OWLs who did not attend Hogwarts? or compared to the number who pass > other Hogwarts courses? Or compared to Muggle chemistry > tests....sorry who slipped that babbling potion into my tea? > > Potioncat Asain_lovr2: I'm convinced of what Snape said, but at the sametime, I can see a degree of uncertainty in the general interpretation of his statements. So, before we go any further let's quote what Snape actually said as a reference point. ---- Quote OotP - Am Ed HB - Chapt 12 - Pg 232 --- "Before we beign today's lesson, " said Snape, sweeping over to his desk and staring around at them all, "I think it is appropriate to remind you that next June you will be sitting an important examination, ... Moronic though some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your O.W.L., or suffer my ... dipleasure." After this year, of course, many of you will cese studying with me," Snape went on. "I take only the very best into my N.E.W.T. Potions class, which menas that some of us will certainly be saying good-bye." "But we have another year to go before that happy moment of farewll," said Snape Softly, "so whther you are intending to attempt N.E.W.T. or not, I advise all of you to concentrate our efforts /upon maintaining the high-pass level/ I have come to expect from my O.W.L. students." - - - End Quote - - - First paragraph, Snape says that he expect EVERYONE to pass. That is, 'I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your OWL'. Implying that for any student not to pass is extremely rare. The third paragraph, 'concentrate ...upon maintaining the high-pass level'. Since a HUGE majority of students ARE going to pass, then he is implying the he expects the bulk of the student to do better than pass, he expects a 'high-pass'. (Does the punctuation tell us anything? 'High pass' vs 'high-pass'?) In otherwords, the minimum grade he expects is 'Acceptable'(pass), and the more common or typical grade he expects is 'Exceeds Expectation' (high pass), but only those who excel with 'Outstanding' will be allowed into NEWTs. The overal impression is that Snape's students are above average, which means 'B'-level or 'Exceed Expectations' is typcial, whereas, relative to the standard statistical cross-section or bell curve, the bulk of the student fall at 'C'-level or 'Acceptable'. And, as I said before, Harry seems to be a typical student when you factor in Snape's persecution of him. That would put Harry on a par with Ron, Dean, and Seamus. Perhaps, although not clear, he may be ever so slightly better than they are. But, even factoring in Snape, Harry's performance has never been at TOP level. In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same as assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' grades. Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do outstanding work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must surely get a better grade than Harry. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr From rzl46 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:26:51 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:26:51 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > rzl46 wrote: > > So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm > > glad, because I'd like to see it. I also agree that the Yule Ball > > can go. I also think that most of the Quidditch World Cup can be > > cut. As much as I'd like to see it, I think that the only things > > truly important in those scenes are Harry's introduction to the > dark > > mark and the introduction of veelas, both of which can be done > > elsewhere. > > > > Sherry says: > > Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and > > Bagman there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events > > surrounding the dark mark. > > Eustace_Scrubb: > While I think the World Cup(the matches themselves) aren't especially > important, the constellation of important people/events/things that > are introduced there is pretty large. We already have the Dark Mark, > Winky, Crouch Sr., Bagman, and veelas as you've noted. > > Let's add Viktor Krum to that list, and Prior Incantato. Also, and I > think this is quite important, this is where Harry is introduced to > the portkey as a transportation method. And I suppose this won't make > it into the movie, but this is where we start to get the idea that the > Death Eaters really could be a danger to muggles (OK, maybe the Riddle > House does that well enough). So while I think the quidditch action > can and probably will be kept quite minor (sorry, sports fans), I > think the event will make it into the movie. > > I do think the whole Fred/George/Bagman/Goblin subplot probably goes. > > I see that the role of Cedric has been cast...I was almost wondering > if the movie makers might not decide to "kill the spare" and make > Harry the lone Hogwarts champion. > > Now apparently the Dursleys do not appear in the GOF movie. If it > starts at the Burrow, what happens to the introductory material about > Little Hangleton and Frank Bryce? Does Harry have his "dream"/vision > at the Burrow? > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Is it even THAT important that Harry have this dream? WE recognize it to be very important because it foreshadows the dreams he has on OOP, but I think that the information given in that chapter isn't exceptionally important. Great for mood, but not so important for substance. I can't wait to meet Moody and to finally see that eye! Last night as I was rereading OOP I was surprised to read that the eye was hard, like a marble (when Harry steps on it during the showdown at the ministry). I always thought it would be squishy. What about Hagrid's Blast Ended Skrewts? Do you think they are important enough to make it into the movie? MaggieB From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:30:18 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:30:18 -0000 Subject: Imperio! - but who and when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > SSSusan: > Except that Krum was in his final year at Durmstrang when Harry was > in 4th year. So by Book 6, Krum would've been out of school for over > a year--wouldn't be allowed to transfer, would he? > > Though he could come to Hogwarts as an instructor! :-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Ohh yeah, an instructor. Wasn't Durmstrang known to actually learn the Dark Arts? Would be cool if the next DADA teacher was Krum... Alora :) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jun 28 21:34:15 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:34:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Reduction Discussion Message-ID: <12d.44a671ca.2e11e8d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103134 In a message dated 6/28/2004 1:41:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sherriola at earthlink.net writes: I think the Yule ball can be cut. It doesn't add anything to the story except learning that Hagrid is half giant. That could be done some other way, or the ball could be shortened to a couple minutes screen time. The other things that happen at the ball is Percy filling in for Crouch, and Dumbledore mentioned the room or Requirement. But since the room won't be important till the next book, it could easily be left out. ================ Sherrie (with an -ie!) here: One word: Ron. IF one of the main foci of the films is shifting toward the SHIPping PoV, then Ron's reaction to Krum is VERY important to the film. There's also the whole conversation between Snape and Karkaroff - though honestly, that information would fit just as well in Igor's visit to Severus' classroom, no? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 21:38:08 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:38:08 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103135 >>> MaggieB wrote: > I just visited JKR's website. The mysterious door now opens and > shows a wall of bricks. Pushing on the bricks in the right order > (and it took a good long while to find that order) opens into what > appears to be a workroom. Play around in there for a while, and all > of a sudden it starts typing "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > Prince." Do you suppose it is the real title of book 6? Or is it a red herring? <<< Bren now: Wow. I ended up using mental Permutation before unlocking the door. Geez! Haha. Well you guys seem very excited about it, but I for one REALLY hope that this is a red herring. Yikes, what a corny title! So much worse than 'Pillar of Storge'. At least that one had cultural/literary reference and sounded cool. All the thought of Book 6 title being "cheesy and corny" make me want to finish my Humpty Dumpty bag. Bren From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 21:43:49 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:43:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d501c45d59$02a1fee0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103136 Bren now: Wow. I ended up using mental Permutation before unlocking the door. Geez! Haha. Well you guys seem very excited about it, but I for one REALLY hope that this is a red herring. Yikes, what a corny title! So much worse than 'Pillar of Storge'. At least that one had cultural/literary reference and sounded cool. Sherry with a Y now: I felt the same way. it sounds too corny to be real. I think it's another red herring, just to keep everyone guessing. I went to the text only part of the web site, and JKR says the Pillar title is not correct. I bet that soon she'll be saying this one isn't either. Sherry G From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 21:45:25 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:45:25 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103138 Gorda quoted JKR from FAQ section of her website: Q: "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand?" JKR: James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time." vmonte responds: I'm confused. How does your comments change the order of the parents deaths? Voldemort's wand shows the victims of his spells in reverse order. From most recent attack to the earliest. James was killed before Lily. He comes out of the wand first, then Lily who was killed after. Ally: But if it was reverse order from the most recent to the earliest, Lily should have come out of the wand before James, because she was killed after him. It should have been Cedric, Lily, James if it was in reverse order, not Cedric, James, Lily. Later versions of the book had Lily come out first, I believe. Where are you getting this quote Gorda? I think that's a misprint of what she said, maybe. Jen: I've had to think about this for about an hour (!), but the way JKR answered this question seems consistent with the original editorial change. My US first edition showed Lily coming out of the wand, then James, implying James was killed after Lily. After the first editions, JKR and editors said, "Oops, no, James should come out first, then Lily, because Lily was the last one killed." In the above comment at her website, JKR is saying the same thing again. James should come out of the wand first, and Lily after him, because James was killed first. That's consistent with the editing changes they made in later editions. (The part that was confusing to me is the VFAQ on this site. The question has it backwards if I'm reading it right.) Jen Reese From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:47:24 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:47:24 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - and the Evil Overlord. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > Jason: > What about those of us who think V got the news from wormtail while > Snape was in the room? Maybe Im the only one? Upon making his exit, > Snape immediately gets word to DD that Voldemort has the potters > info. > > You might say that Snape would then know that Peter betrayed the > Potters. Maybe. But would Snape bother to correct them when Sirius > was caught "red handed?" I don't think so. > > But maybe Snape didn't know Peter was the secret Keeper. Perhaps > he arrived shortly thereafter and then learned Voldy somehow knew. > > ...edited... > > Jason Asian_lovr2: Any good student of fictional (and frequently real) Evil Overlords can tell you exactly how this particulare scene played out. Voldemort spoke to Wormtail/Peter in private; in case it was bad news, he wouldn't want his evil horde of toadies and minions to know. Once he had the 'good' news, in true evil overlord fashion, he would have announced his victory over the Potters to all his evil Death Eater minions and anyone else who would listen. That's the cue for Snape to sneak away an tell Dumbledore. Evil Overlords and villain alway prematurely announce their victory, and in the process, give away all the details of their plan, and ultimately make a fool out of themselves. It's a by-product of the cursed 'supreme in his own arrogance' megalomaniacal God-complex, 'infalability of Gods and Kings' over-confidence in ones self. When you are absolutely convinced of your own infalability, and like to flaunt it, you are bound to make mistakes... no... no... it's always the marginally retarded, never had an independant thought, scared to death minion and toadies who make the mistakes. The plan certainly must be fool-proof if it came from the next 'Lord and Master of the Universe', so it has to be the fool-toadies who are at fault. Sorry, strayed a bit, but you get the point. Steve/asian_lovr2 From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:54:52 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:54:52 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103140 >>> Jason: >>> In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor >>> Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his >>> birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom >>> Riddle seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long >>> since forgotten! :-) >> Debra: >> That's true, that was mentioned. However, I think that was just >> foreshadowing to the fact that Harry had met him before, with a >> different name, and had yet to find out who he really was. Or >> perhaps the entire opening of GF, including the mystery of the >> Riddle family, was part of Harry's dream that made his scar hurt >> for the first time since SS/PS, and therefore he *had* already >> heard the name before. > Gina: > Was LV at some point a friend to someone before going bad? > Does he HAVE a son that maybe Harry knew at some point - maybe > there is another TR Jr. that lives in Little Whinging that went to > school with Harry long ago and thus the Ministry comment about the > situation in Little Whinging regarding other wizards living there??? Debra: I don't think TR was involved in anything good before he went bad, because as LV he mentions always having had so much hate in his childhood, and at sixteen years old he said that he had been looking for Slytherin's method of killing mudbloods for five years. I also don't think there's a TR Jr. because according to Dumbledore, TR/LV was the last remaining heir of Slytherin. And since JKR often uses Dumbledore as a means of relaying information to the reader, I think we can take that at face value and not argue over how much DD does or does not know on the subject. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:12:44 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:12:44 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103141 Jen wrote: Jen: I've had to think about this for about an hour (!), but the way JKR answered this question seems consistent with the original editorial change. My US first edition showed Lily coming out of the wand, then James, implying James was killed after Lily. After the first editions, JKR and editors said, "Oops, no, James should come out first, then Lily, because Lily was the last one killed." In the above comment at her website, JKR is saying the same thing again. James should come out of the wand first, and Lily after him, because James was killed first. That's consistent with the editing changes they made in later editions. (The part that was confusing to me is the VFAQ on this site. The question has it backwards if I'm reading it right.) vmonte responds; It doesn't work out though. If James was killed before Lily, he should come out of the wand last. I figured it out only by assigning "made up" years to the deaths. Let's say Cedric died in 1994, James on October 30 1983, and Lily on October 31st 1983. In reverse order it should be Cedric, Lily, James. So either her American editor was right, and she is wrong. Or she really meant that James died after Lily. Which may mean that she was at Godric's Hollow with someone other than James... vivian From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 22:14:43 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:14:43 -0000 Subject: Did someone else kill James? (Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103142 >>> Jen wrote: My US first edition showed Lily coming out of the wand, then James, implying James was killed after Lily. After the first editions, JKR and editors said, "Oops, no, James should come out first, then Lily, because Lily was the last one killed." In the above comment at her website, JKR is saying the same thing again. James should come out of the wand first, and Lily after him, because James was killed first. That's consistent with the editing changes they made in later editions. <<< Bren now: NO, no. JKR's words on her website "James first, then Lily" must mean that James was killed AFTER Lily, since it was due to the reverse spell effect. The order of victims we see coming out of VM's wand in the graveyard scene is (I think...): Cedric -> Frank Bryce -> Bertha J -> James -> Lily How did James die AFTER Lily? Perhaps James was at GH after all. But I still believe that there was a 3rd person present at the scene, possibly the mysterious VM servant, the real traitor of the Potters. I can think of a couple of possibilities: 1. Lily holding the baby, VM 'stand aside, silly girl...' -- kills Lily. JAmes, possibly battling with the traitor/3rd party somewhere else, rushes to Lily's aid but too late, got blown up by VM. Then VM goes for Harry, then booroom-chee! 2. The traitor killed James with VM's wand AFTER Voldemort's downfall. Makes sense, the traitor didn't expect the Potters to live, but if his Dark Lord got destroyed then the traitor couldn't let James walk free. James just had learned who the real traitor was all long, he had to go. I personally think it was one of the Marauders, most likely Lupin (thanks Pippin... multiple sighs...) But why did the traitor use VM's wand? It's more powerful? But it's not his own wand... But the wand chooses the wizard... Dunno, too many questions... We should ask questions to JKR as well, haha, see what she says. Bren, who doesn't like ESE!Lupin as much as anyone... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:17:41 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040628221741.52133.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103143 > > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title > for CoS. According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353727.stm the original title was "Harry Potter and the Half Loved Prince" not "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 22:22:35 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:22:35 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > >>> Jason: > >>> In that case, Half blood prince may be referring to Tom Marvolor > >>> Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. We were promised more on his > >>> birth and backstory and maybe we'll find out why the name Tom > >>> Riddle seemed to mean something to Harry. Like a friend he'd long > >>> since forgotten! :-) > > >> Debra: > >> That's true, that was mentioned. However, I think that was just > >> foreshadowing to the fact that Harry had met him before, with a > >> different name, and had yet to find out who he really was. Or > >> perhaps the entire opening of GF, including the mystery of the > >> Riddle family, was part of Harry's dream that made his scar hurt > >> for the first time since SS/PS, and therefore he *had* already > >> heard the name before. > > > Gina: > > Was LV at some point a friend to someone before going bad? > > Does he HAVE a son that maybe Harry knew at some point - maybe > > there is another TR Jr. that lives in Little Whinging that went to > > school with Harry long ago and thus the Ministry comment about the > > situation in Little Whinging regarding other wizards living there??? > > Debra: > I don't think TR was involved in anything good before he went bad, > because as LV he mentions always having had so much hate in his > childhood, and at sixteen years old he said that he had been looking > for Slytherin's method of killing mudbloods for five years. I also > don't think there's a TR Jr. because according to Dumbledore, TR/LV > was the last remaining heir of Slytherin. And since JKR often uses > Dumbledore as a means of relaying information to the reader, I think > we can take that at face value and not argue over how much DD does or > does not know on the subject. Maybe the half blood prince is Mark evans, he could be Harry's half brother. Hence the half blood, as for the prince part...I'm still working on that... From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 22:27:09 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:27:09 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103145 Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He could be Harry's half brother. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:30:38 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:30:38 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Gorda wrote: > > Q: "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's > parents have come out of the wand? > > > A: James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript ... my American editor thought that was the wrong way > around, and he ...changed it without thinking, then realised it had > been right in the first place. ...." > > So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have > been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! > > vmonte responds: > > I'm confused. How does your comments change the order of the parents > deaths? Voldemort's wand shows the victims of his spells in reverse > order. ...edited... > > vivian asian_lovr2: I just noticed this on JKR's site. When this post orginally appeared here in this group, I ignored it because I assumed it was just another re-hash of the old endless arguement that I had assumed had been resolved long ago. Based on this New Info-... Analysis- -Order of Deaths- 1st) Lily ...then 2nd) James ...then 3rd) Frank ...then 4th) and last ...Cedric -In Reverse Order as the SHOULD have exited the Wand- Cedric ...then Frank ...then James ...then finally ...Lily Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited Lord-V wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her own personal website, James came out before Lily. This throws a monkey wrench into everything. Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. asian_lovr2/steve From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 22:38:37 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:38:37 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103147 > vmonte responds; > > It doesn't work out though. If James was killed before Lily, he > should come out of the wand last. I figured it out only by > assigning "made up" years to the deaths. Let's say Cedric died in > 1994, James on October 30 1983, and Lily on October 31st 1983. In > reverse order it should be Cedric, Lily, James. > > So either her American editor was right, and she is wrong. Or she > really meant that James died after Lily. Which may mean that she was > at Godric's Hollow with someone other than James... Jen: Or someone was with Voldemort at Godric's Hollow who killed James with LV's wand. Say Voldemort incapacitated James, killed Lily, the curse backfired, and then someone used LV's wand to kill an unconcious or groggy James. Peter seems the obvious choice because he was in possession of LV's wand in GOF. I see what you're saying now about the wand order. My hour of pondering wasn't enough :). So JKR's quote on the website is either confused or she wasn't answering the question that was asked. In her mind she could be thinking James was killed first, therefore he came out of the wand first. If she wasn't answering the question that was asked, maybe she was saying who died first: Q: "At the end of Goblet of Fire, in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand?" JKR says James first, then Lily. Was she really answering who died first? Or James really did die after Lily, opening up a huge can of worms. I'm thinking a retraction will be posted soon, or JKR will explain why she worded her answer that way. Jen From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:40:21 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:40:21 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > could be Harry's half brother. It's possible. I don't know if he's Harry's half brother, but he could be the half-blood prince. My thoughts on the subject are in message 103118. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:38:26 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:38:26 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince vs. Half Blood-Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103149 A thought just came to me about the lack of hyphen in the title we were given. Perhaps JKR is trying to make us *think* that it's "half-blood prince" when really she's thinking more along the lines of "half blood-prince"? Not necessarily that this is a new hyphenated term, but that blood and prince are the words we should be grouping together, rather than half and blood. After all, in the canon, isn't half-blood always hyphenated? Then comes the logical question, What the flips is a blood-prince? Well, to tell you the truth, I have no idea. It's just a theory. But it stemmed from the mentionings of Mark Evans as a "half-brother", which could form the "half" portion of the phrase "half blood- prince". After all, even if Mark Evans is Harry's half-brother, it doesn't necessarily mean he is a half-blood. It means he shares with Harry either the pureblood parent or the mudblood parent, which means he could still either be pureblood or have no wizard blood in him at all. I think I'm just rambling, but if you got anything from that, feel free to respond. From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 22:44:19 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:44:19 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" > wrote: > > Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > > could be Harry's half brother. > > It's possible. I don't know if he's Harry's half brother, but he > could be the half-blood prince. My thoughts on the subject are in > message 103118. Yeh really sorry, I didnt nick your idea, but I read your post just after I posted mine. ay well great minds think alike ay... From alina at distantplace.net Mon Jun 28 22:47:36 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:47:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince References: Message-ID: <008c01c45d61$eb2d1e30$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103151 I just wanted to point out that half-wizard half-muggle children (Seamus is one, btw, so's Dean) aren't the only half-bloods in the books. Hagrid's a half-blood too. Several female characters are half-wizard, half-something else (Mme. Maxine, for example, and Fleur to an extent). Personally, I'm sceptical to accept this as the actual title of Book Six, but half-bloodedness is a very broad and ever-present theme in the books, more so than we realize, I think. Alina. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 22:48:27 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:48:27 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith > wrote: > Conversely Minerva, on her own initiative, arrives at Privet Drive > early in the morning and waits for something to happen. Very strange. > It was term-time (Halloween), but she leaves her teaching duties and > chooses to sit in a cold street for 16 hours or so on the basis of what > she calls rumours, rumours she can only have heard very early that > morning. "slgazit" replied: I have not read or posted here in a while now, but here is my take. Hagrid, Diggle, McGonnagal... They were all members of the original OOP I believe. Likely Dumbledore was not at Hogwarts when the attack happened but at the headquarters (whereever that may have been) and notified the members on hand what happened then summoned Hagrid to get the baby (from whom McGonnagal would get a sketchy report). Diggle probably was there and that was how the news and fireworks started. Carolyn: Well, actually, we don't know that McGonagal *was* in the original Order. She was not described by Moody when he shows Harry the photo of them all (Ch 9, OoP), and he seems to go through them in a lot of detail. She may have taken the photograph, of course, but photography hasn't come up as one of her interests yet. Like Arthur and Molly, I feel there's some back history still to come out as to the reasons for this. Whilst not necessarily going for ESE!McGonagal on this slender supposition, it has been widely noticed before that for some reason she is not in DD's inner circle of most-trusted people. The day spent on the wall at Privet Drive seems to confirm this. And as soon as she is given something responsible to do, she 'slips up' (guarding Barty Crouch Jr); maybe she didn't want him questioned about other matters. By OoP she's been relegated back to nothing much important, and seems desperate to prove that she is loyal. Maybe another teacher with a secret in her past that DD is having to work with, just like Snape, but not so obvious. She seems to have taken over the transfiguration teaching job in 1956, perhaps when DD got promoted to Headmaster, and we don't know anything about her past before this. The dates of her arriving at Hogwarts preclude her teaching Tom Riddle (he would have been aged 30 when she started teaching), but she is of a generation to know much more about him as a young man than many people. If JKR is to be believed that Minerva is 'a sprightly 70', they were actually born within a year of each other, and quite likely were at Hogwarts together. Maybe she had a crush on him - he was supposed to be good- looking as a teenage boy. Maybe *her* parents knew Tom Riddle's mother.. It is also valid to speculate she may have taken a special interest in the transformations he subsequently went through to become Lord Voldemort as we see him today - after all, it is her chosen subject, and he was one of the school's most brilliant students. It could all add up to DD knowing that she has her weak spots, and like not giving Snape the DADA position, he doesn't risk her with many pieces of information. McGonagall's anxiety on the wall at Privet Drive is almost like that of a person being blackmailed, desperate to know that their tormentor is dead, and their secret is safe for ever. Re-reading the photo chapter in OoP also reminded me of the mysterious Caradoc Dearborn, who vanished 'six months after this, we never found his body'. In JKR's world, I get suspicious when there is no body. Wonder what he was up to. The photo could have been taken six months before the events at Godric Hollow, all the deaths mentioned by Moody fit this timescale. Carolyn From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:51:15 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:51:15 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103153 steve wrote: Analysis- -Order of Deaths- 1st) Lily ...then 2nd) James ...then 3rd) Frank ...then 4th) and last ...Cedric -In Reverse Order as the SHOULD have exited the Wand- Cedric ...then Frank ...then James ...then finally ...Lily Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited Lord-V wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her own personal website, James came out before Lily. This throws a monkey wrench into everything. Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. asian_lovr2/steve vmonte responds: Do you think that her American editor was right all along? Page 294,SS "Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you.... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." vivian From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:56:20 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:56:20 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103154 asian_lovr2/stevesteve: >snipped< This throws a monkey wrench into everything. > > Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? > > Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? > > Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? > > Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became > a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I > dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. > > asian_lovr2/stevesteve Snow: I wrote something about this just last night in post 103024: >snipped< ...Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies " If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is missing? From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Jun 28 22:58:09 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:58:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? References: Message-ID: <009b01c45d63$6283d950$7690253e@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103155 How can Mark be Harry's half brother???? It's impossible. Both Harry's parents died when he was one year old, Mark is five years younger than Harry, the Potters had been dead for four years when Mark Evans was born... So, unless he's Harry's twin and he was frozen when a baby and not defrozen until five years later, or something like that, I can't see how he could be Harry's brother. Cousin??? Maybe, but brother??? nooo way!!!! Cheers, Fridwulfa ----- Original Message ----- From: Debra To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:40 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > could be Harry's half brother. It's possible. I don't know if he's Harry's half brother, but he could be the half-blood prince. My thoughts on the subject are in message 103118. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 22:53:50 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:53:50 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <008c01c45d61$eb2d1e30$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103156 > Alina: > I just wanted to point out that half-wizard half-muggle children > (Seamus is one, btw, so's Dean) aren't the only half-bloods in the > books. Hagrid's a half-blood too. Several female characters are > half-wizard, half-something else (Mme. Maxine, for example, and > Fleur to an extent). Debra: Yeah, I think that has been mentioned. Or maybe it was on HP.com, it gets confusing switching back and forth between the two, which is what I'm doing now. There is an interesting discussion going on there about how Hagrid may be the half-blood prince; if it isn't proven impossible, I may transfer it here. From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 23:05:11 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:05:11 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <009b01c45d63$6283d950$7690253e@portatil> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: > How can Mark be Harry's half brother???? It's impossible. Both Harry's parents died when he was one year old, Mark is five years younger than Harry, the Potters had been dead for four years when Mark Evans was born... So, unless he's Harry's twin and he was frozen when a baby and not defrozen until five years later, or something like that, I can't see how he could be Harry's brother. Cousin??? Maybe, but brother??? nooo way!!!! > Cheers, > Fridwulfa Me now. Wow, how could I have been so dumb, I'm just so excited about this possible title that I didnt think. Of course he couldnt be harry's half brother!...Not unless a time turner was used...:-D From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 23:07:53 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:07:53 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103158 > ...Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out > for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, > destroyed, and their bodies " > > If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and > Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have > been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH > and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is > missing? Morgan: I always assumed that Voldermort's body was destroyed when the AK rebounded onto him. Dont know why, I dont think there's any cannon to support that. I just assumed his body sort of vaporised. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 23:12:40 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:12:40 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103159 Steve/asian_lovr2 > Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited Lord-V > wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her own > personal website, James came out before Lily. > > This throws a monkey wrench into everything. > > Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? > > Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? > > Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? > > Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became > a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I > dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. Jen: I'm waiting to hear more on this. It's hard to believe JKR would slip this provocative statement on her website after authorizing editorial changes to the contrary. Why not wait and just let us find out in the next book? Also, basically that would mean she lied when making the editorial changes, attempting to hide a big clue give-away. There's alot at stake for her to reverse her position again, now, so late in the game. You have to wonder if she slipped up, thinking if James was killed first he would come out of the wand first. It *is* her comment on her website, but it wouldn't be the first time she contradicted something, i.e, Percy being two years younger than Bill. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:13:44 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:13:44 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103160 > vmonte responds: > > Do you think that her American editor was right all along? > > Page 294,SS > > "Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first, > and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have > died...she was trying to protect you.... Now give me the Stone, > unless you want her to have died in vain." > > vivian Snow: Very good point! The only rebuttal I would have is on a quote from JKR in which she says that Voldemort lies: Barnes and Noble Chat Oct. 20, 2000 In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? No. Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him. I guess we could question whether or not Voldemort lied about the statement to Harry you pointed out. My question is why JKR would wait four years to announce this? No one is that sleep deprived. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:23:23 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:23:23 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > > ...Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out > > for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, > > destroyed, and their bodies " > > > > If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and > > Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have > > been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH > > and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is > > missing? > > Morgan: > > I always assumed that Voldermort's body was destroyed when the AK > rebounded onto him. Dont know why, I dont think there's any cannon > to support that. I just assumed his body sort of vaporised. Snow: In the graveyard Voldemort said that he was ripped from his body. I took that to mean that his body would still have remained. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:31:08 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:31:08 -0000 Subject: H P & the Half Loved/Half Blood Prince -Newsround In-Reply-To: <20040628221741.52133.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > > > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title > > for CoS. > > > According to > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353727.stm > the original title was "Harry Potter and the Half > Loved Prince" not "Harry Potter and the Half Blood > Prince" > > > Rebecca asian_lovr2: I think this was probably a transcription error. This interview took place on the Hogwart's Express. Newsround- http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_1634000/1634400.stm "During a massive event in July 2000 to celebrate the launch of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Newsround's Lizo Mzimba boarded the Hogwarts Express to talk with JK Rowling. The interview is in four parts. " Based on what I read elsewhere, the train was moving during the interviews, and there was one problem the reporters hadn't counted on. The Steam Engine, and the rickety old cars made so much noise that the reporters taperecoders could barely make out what was being said. This comment was made in different locations by different interviews, which tends to confirm it. There fourth section of the interview (as well as the other three parts) are on video, so you can watch and decide for yourself what she really said. Part Four- (RealPlayer Audio/Video) http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/01/newsround/jk4.ram SORRY- just checked and this video link seems to be out of date. You could try it at some other time and see if it works, but it didn't work for me. Anyway, I think it is a transcription error, 'blood' was mistaken for 'love'. At the time 'love' probably made more sense to the transcriber, but given the information available in three more books, I think 'blood' makes more sense. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:36:24 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:36:24 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103163 I think this is just a mistake. After all, in earlier versions of the book it was written as James coming out first, but in later versions this was "corrected" and Lily comes out first. I don't personally own a later version, but supposedly that's what happened. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:37:14 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:37:14 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > steve wrote: > > Analysis- > -Order of Deaths- > 1st) Lily ...then > 2nd) James ...then > 3rd) Frank ...then > 4th) and last ...Cedric > > -In Reverse Order as the SHOULD have exited the Wand- > Cedric ...then > Frank ...then > James ...then > finally ...Lily > > Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited > Lord-V wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her > own personal website, James came out before Lily. > > This throws a monkey wrench into everything. > ... > I'm dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. > > asian_lovr2/steve > > > vmonte responds: > > Do you think that her American editor was right all along? > > Page 294,SS > > "Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first, > and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have > died...she was trying to protect you.... Now give me the Stone, > unless you want her to have died in vain." > > vivian asian_lovr: Does anyone have an early UK edition of PS/SS who can confirm that it says the same thing. Now I'm more confused that ever. Steve/asian_lovr2 From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon Jun 28 23:43:16 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:43:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <00b401c45d69$af633440$7690253e@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103165 It says the same thing. And as for Goblet. I have the first edition, UK, and James comes firts, but in the paperback edition it's the other way round. I think JK has explained it satisfactory, it was a mistake, James DID die first, then Lily. Cheers, Fridwulfa ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:37 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > steve wrote: > > Analysis- > -Order of Deaths- > 1st) Lily ...then > 2nd) James ...then > 3rd) Frank ...then > 4th) and last ...Cedric > > -In Reverse Order as the SHOULD have exited the Wand- > Cedric ...then > Frank ...then > James ...then > finally ...Lily > > Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited > Lord-V wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her > own personal website, James came out before Lily. > > This throws a monkey wrench into everything. > ... > I'm dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. > > asian_lovr2/steve > > > vmonte responds: > > Do you think that her American editor was right all along? > > Page 294,SS > > "Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first, > and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have > died...she was trying to protect you.... Now give me the Stone, > unless you want her to have died in vain." > > vivian asian_lovr: Does anyone have an early UK edition of PS/SS who can confirm that it says the same thing. Now I'm more confused that ever. Steve/asian_lovr2 ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:46:20 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:46:20 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > > asian_lovr2/stevesteve: > >snipped< > This throws a monkey wrench into everything. > > > > Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? > > > > Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? > > > > Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? > > > > ...Godric's Hollow ... becamer more complex ... > > > > asian_lovr2/stevesteve > Snow: > > I wrote something about this just last night in post 103024: > > >snipped< > > ...Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out > for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, > destroyed, and their bodies " > > If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and > Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have > been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH > and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is > missing? asian_lovr2: Yes, I did read that, but you are assuming that 'thier bodies' is an all inclusive statement. That is, that it totally defines the scene, when in reality it may have only been referring to one aspect of the scene. Sirius starts by referring to 'your parents' which rightfully leads us to assume that 'their bodies' is reserved for 'Lily and James', Harry's parents, and indeed that may have been the only part of the scene that Sirius was interested in at the time, but it doesn't exclude the presents of more bodies. By the same token, it doesn't demand that more bodies are present. Given the uncertainty in my mind, I can't give much weight to that statement. I'm not say it doesn't have weight, only that I personally can't find a way to give deeper meaning to it. ...and I'm usually pretty good at doing that. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jun 28 23:49:39 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:49:39 +1000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E13B33.17773.47321D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103167 Over the weekend I had to go up to my old school for a meeting, and while I was there I encountered my most 'Snape-like' teacher of all, who I've alluded to several times. Today, I am able to talk to him without almost passing out in fear. (-8 I mentioned the discussions we'd been having here, and the fact that I was using him as an example of a Snape like teacher. He knew what I meant - he's very impressed with the Harry Potter books, because somebody has taken the trouble to translate the first one into Latin (and he is considering using that as a text with some of his advanced students). I asked him if he thought he was Snape like, and he said, Yes, he accepted that, and he said that in his case, it is quite deliberate. It is the way he teaches. He's not convinced that is necessarily true for Snape - he could just be very very nasty. When I got home, he'd sent me an e-mail because he'd been thinking about the question I asked. There was a paragraph in it, that I asked him if I could quote as representative of a real like Snape as I think he *possibly* may be. He's given me permission to quote him (although without a name, as he is worried some of his current pupils might see it and make the mistake that this indicates some degree of softness and frivolity). But for your amusement. The teaching philosophy of a real life Snape: "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely effective teacher. What I am not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how to turn obnoxious adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined culture of 25 centuries. Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without making a few boys cry. Tough. They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, they'll be better for it." Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 00:17:04 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:17:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Half Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > danielmorgan: > > Maybe the half blood prince is Mark evans, he could be Harry's half > brother. Hence the half blood, as for the prince part...I'm still > working on that... asain_lovr2: For Harry and Mark to be half-brothers they would have to share a common father or a common mother. Lily and James married right out of School and died soon after. That doesn't leave much room for 5 years younger half-brother to enter the picture. Unless... James is still alive, has taken his wife's maiden name to cover his identity, re-married, and produced Mark. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head? Flaws in the plan- James is a wizard, and the Minister says no other wizards/witches live in Little Whinging. Of course, the registry of wizard's homesteads could be voluntary, and James failed to 'volunteer'. The book repeatedly says that both Harry's parents are dead. How could James live in the vicinity of Privet Drive and never make contact with Harry? He would have to be made of stone. Doesn't a half-brother sort of invalidate the Dursley/Evans Blood Protection theory? As I have said many times before, if there is a family relationship between Harry and Mark, it has to be VERY distant, or we have been flat out lied to for 5 books. I say the absolute nearest common ancestor they could have would be Grandparents, but in all likelihood, Great or Great-Great Grandparents. Remember, that's not 'more likely' to be, but more likely to be the nearest possible. In all likelihood, the relationship is more distant than that. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 00:25:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:25:48 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Half Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve/asian_lovr2: > As I have said many times before, if there is a family relationship > between Harry and Mark, it has to be VERY distant, or we have been > flat out lied to for 5 books. I say the absolute nearest common > ancestor they could have would be Grandparents, but in all likelihood, > Great or Great-Great Grandparents. > > Remember, that's not 'more likely' to be, but more likely to be the > nearest possible. In all likelihood, the relationship is more distant > than that. > > Just a thought. Geoff: In my post about Mark Evans last November in message 85255, I discussed at length the likelihood that he was a cousin with maybe two squibs for parents or a squib/Muggle combination which would explain the Ministry's view that there were no wizards in the Little Whinging area, young wizards probably not being noted until they reached Hogwarts age. I also argued that it could be possible for their relationship to be as close as second cousin without them being aware of the link, quoting from my own family experience. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 00:29:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:29:12 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103170 I am in process of reading through the books again and am currently wading through POA at a fairly pedestrian pace. I reached the chapter "Talons and Tea Leaves" a day or so ago and idly began to look at the various predictions thrown out by Sybill Trelawney in their first lesson and to see what evidence there was that they were fulfilled. I drafted the following list. I have indicated the page on which the comment was made (in the range pp.80-83 UK edition) and where there was some follow-up, if any. (1) "You, boy," she said suddenly to Neville who almost toppled off his pouffe, "is your grandmother well?" "I think so," said Neville tremulously. "I wouldn't be so sure if I were you, dear," said Professor Trelawney" (p.80) I do not see any evidence to support this being fulfilled. (2) "By the way, my dear," she shot suddenly at Parvati Patil, "beware a red-haired man." Parvati gave a startled look at Ron, who was right behind her and edged her chair away from him.(p.80) Again, I do not see any evidence to support this being fulfilled. (3) "Unfortunately, classes will be disrupted in February by a nasty bout of flu. I myself will lose my voice. And, around Easter, one of our number will leave us for ever." (p.80) I do not see any evidence regarding the flu but Hermione gives up on Divination and walks out of the class and Lavender says; "You saw her leaving, didn't you? Didn't you, Professor? `Around Easter, one of our number will leave us for ever!' You said it ages ago, Professor!" (p.220 "The Quidditch Final") (4) Speaking to Lavender: "Thank you, my dear. Incidentally, that thing you are dreading ? it will happen on Friday the sixteenth of October." (p.80) We find a tearful Lavender with the others: `"She got a letter from home this morning," Parvati whispered. "It's her rabbit, Binky, he's been killed by a fox." "Oh," said Hermione, "I'm sorry, Lavender." "I should have known!" said Lavender tragically. "You know what day it is?" "Er ?" "The sixteenth of October. `That thing you are dreading ? it will happen on the sixteenth of October!'" (p.112 "Flight of the Fat Lady") (5) "Oh, and dear ?" she caught Neville by the arm as he made to stand up, "after you've broken your first cup, would you be so kind as to select one of the blue patterned ones? I'm rather attached to the pink." (p.81) Two lines further on, Neville breaks a cup. (6) "my dear," Professor Trelawney's huge eyes opened dramatically. "You have the Grim" "The what?" said Harry .. "The Grim, my dear, the Grim" cried Professor Trelawney who looked shocked that Harry hadn't understood. "The giant, spectral dog that haunts churchyards! My dear boy, it is an omen ? the worst omen - of death." (pp.82-83) " Harry saw something that distracted him completely: the silhouette of an enormous shaggy black dog, clearly imprinted against the sky, motionless in the topmost, empty row of seats." (p.133 "Grim Defeat") (7) `"Until we meet again, said Professor Trelawney faintly, "fair fortune be yours. Oh, and dear ? "she pointed at Neville," you'll be late next time so mind you work extra hard to catch up." (p.83) Again, I see no evidence of this occurring. Here, there are eight predictions of which four "seem" to be fulfilled ? a 50% pass rate. What of the others? Some appear to be trifling, Neville's punctuality and the flu outbreak. But what about Grandma Longbottom? And what intrigues me most is the red haired man. Is there anything significant hidden in this or is it now too far in the past or part of ST's "patter"? Anyone else got any thoughts? Or am I just chasing shadows? I haven't been following the threads on Trelawney which have been doing the rounds lately, so if I have repeated questions already raised, my apologies. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 00:35:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:35:36 -0000 Subject: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103171 Steve wrote: > > In otherwords, the minimum grade he expects is 'Acceptable'(pass), and > the more common or typical grade he expects is 'Exceeds Expectation' > (high pass), but only those who excel with 'Outstanding' will be > allowed into NEWTs. > > The overal impression is that Snape's students are above average, > which means 'B'-level or 'Exceed Expectations' is typcial, whereas, > relative to the standard statistical cross-section or bell curve, the > bulk of the student fall at 'C'-level or 'Acceptable'. > > Potioncat: So Snape expects a small percentage (25%?) to get an Outstanding and an equal number to get Acceptable and the rest (50%?) to get Exceeds expectations. Although I don't remember the usual spread, that's the idea? I agree...bell or no...Harry will have an E. The only way he would have an O is if ALL the Potions classes usually do exceptionally well. And in that case, you'd think even Harry would have heard about it. I think the tension will be, how will he get into Potions? and there's been any number of ideas for that! From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 00:39:40 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:39:40 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: > > ...edited... > > I see what you're saying now about the wand order. My hour of > pondering wasn't enough :). So JKR's quote on the website is either > confused or she wasn't answering the question that was asked. In her > mind she could be thinking James was killed first, therefore he came > out of the wand first. > > If she wasn't answering the question that was asked, maybe she was > saying who died first: Q: "At the end of Goblet of Fire, in which > order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand?" JKR says > James first, then Lily. Was she really answering who died first? > > Or James really did die after Lily, opening up a huge can of worms. > I'm thinking a retraction will be posted soon, or JKR will explain > why she worded her answer that way. > > Jen asian_lovr2: That's exactly what I thought. She was asked about wand order, and her mind shifted to thinking about death order, and in a sense, gave the right answer to the wrong question. HOWEVER... On her website she said that the original manuscripts were correct, that James came out first, therefore died last. She further says that the original UK publication was correct which showed James appearing first, then later changed by the USA publisher. Attributing this mistaken correction to the rush to publish and fatigue. Later other editions were corrected to match the USA editions, and now JKR is correcting the mistake once and for all. Although, as I said before, if we are to take it at face value, things just got infinitely more complicated. I'm really stunned by this because if confounds several year of thoughts and beliefs. SIDE NOTE: (general) Visual aid to picturing deaths- Think of people dying as stacking dinner plates on top of each other. The Last plate on the stack, the one on the top, is the first one to be taken off the stack. Lily dies, so we set her 'death plate' on the table, then James dies and we set his 'death plate' on top of Lily's. That puts James at the top of the stack; last on = first off. Now the plates come off in reverse order. James was the last on, so he is the first off. After James, then Lily's plate comes off the stack. This is how computer stacks work. We call it LIFO (last in; first out). There still seems to be some confusion on who was where and when. I thought this example might help. Steve/asian_lovr2 From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue Jun 29 00:53:34 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:53:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? Message-ID: <37.49d8fa6e.2e12178e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103173 In a message dated 6/28/2004 7:15:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: In Reverse Order as the SHOULD have exited the Wand- Cedric ...then Frank ...then James ...then finally ...Lily Lily was killed then James was killed, in reverse, James exited Lord-V wand then Lily exited the wand. By JKR's own words, on her own personal website, James came out before Lily. This throws a monkey wrench into everything. Where the hell was James while Lily and Harry were being attacked? Who was yelling for Lily to grab Harry and run? Who, what, when, where, and how was Jame killed? Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. But that makes no sense. That is the way the American version was originally printed and they corrected it to have Lily come before James. Is someone playing games? Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 01:07:33 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:07:33 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103174 Bren: I would personally LOVE to see that "bloke wearing kilt and poncho together" or that old guy wearing a flower-pattered night gawn because it makes his "privates feel...". Enough said ;P Or at least, I hope the wizards dress up in very FUNNY combination of Muggle clothing in GoF. Bookworm: Definately! Bren: Malfoy & co were dressed in PERFECT Muggle clothing in PoA movie and it *really* bothered me. Malfoy of all people, pulling off perfect Muggle look!! I thought DEs all hated Muggles. Bookworm: I suspect Lucius Malfoy will look perfect in whatever he is wearing. It is beneath his dignity to look anything other than impecable, even if he *must* disguise himself as a muggle. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 01:21:55 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:21:55 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103175 Kneasy: Pyrites? Would that be Ian Pyrites, the renowned fake who glisters? Interestingly enough when I tried to find him in Quick-Quotes nothing turned up. Dunno if I was entering the wrong search parameters. Bookworm: Did you check JKR's website under "Other Stuff"? IIRC it is under the info on Original Chapters to Philosopher's Stone. Jason: Your query as to why the Potters home was in rubble? Well, because James fought Voldemort. Spells seem to cause lots of damage when they hit something. They destroy headstones in graveyards, reduce tables to rubble, set desks ablaze, blow chunks off statues. Seems a fight to the death between two powerful wizards would cause plenty of damage to reduce the Godrics Hollow home to what could be referred to as "rubble." Bookworm: This doesn't make sense if you think about Lily still being alive. Somewhere on her website (FAQ, maybe) she said Harry was in his crib and saw only a flash of green light. So the house was probably still standing when Voldemort attacked Lily. Whatever turned the house into rubble, somehow Harry survived it. Ravenclaw Bookworm, who apologizes for not giving clear citations, but whose computer has already crashed once tonight (while trying to check the citations) and she doesn't want to risk it again. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 01:24:23 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:24:23 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103176 Geoff snipped: What of the others? Some appear to be trifling, Neville's punctuality > and the flu outbreak. But what about Grandma Longbottom? And what > intrigues me most is the red haired man. Is there anything > significant hidden in this or is it now too far in the past or part > of ST's "patter"? Anyone else got any thoughts? Or am I just chasing > shadows? Snow: I had wrote something a bit similar to this some time back but my ideas were relating more with the very first "classroom prophecy" than her prophecies as a whole but I did hit on a few of the questions that you were curious about or at best my interpretation from them as presented through canon. The post was #96426. From jeanes at maxitd.com Mon Jun 28 19:13:33 2004 From: jeanes at maxitd.com (friendjoshua) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:13:33 -0000 Subject: "and either must die at the hand of the other" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103177 >From Harry's prophecy: "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" Then I read jk's site's faq: >The prophecy Harry hears in Dumbledore's office suggests to me that both he and Voldemort will have to die, is that true? >Both Madam Trelawney and I worded the prophecy extremely carefully and that is all I have to say on the subject! So here's my idea (I havent seen it here yet): The key phrase here is "hand". Either must die at the "hand" of the other. Who do we know that has a "hand" of Voldemort? Wormtail! Thus Wormtail is the key figure here. Voldemort or Harry can only be killed by the silver "hand" of Wormtail. Although, a possible optional reading is that Harry can only be killed by Voldemort's hand and Voldemort can only be killed by Harry's hand. This of course leads to the possiblity that Harry will lose his hand (ala Luke Skywalker). The one who gets Harry's hand will be able to kill Voldemort. friendjosh From rbfrey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 19:17:26 2004 From: rbfrey at hotmail.com (Ben Frey) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:17:26 -0000 Subject: A few answers from JK Rowling's keyboard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103178 JK Rowling's site has been updated today, providing quite a bit of grist for the mill. Big news is the title for book 6, found behind the now unlocked door. Looks official to me. She has also updated her FAQ's, touching on a number of threads that have woven their way through these discussions: - Why Harry saw the thestrals when he did; - Why Harry didn't use Sirius' mirror; - A brief comment on the prophecy; - An interesting, speculative question concerning Ginny and Tom Riddle that is more significant than it seems (JK's coyness is showing); - One more attempt to clarify the "Lily and James from Voldemort's wand" question. The thestral answer, in particular, seems quite definitive and would appear to put to rest the speculation on who Harry saw/didn't see die. I haven't posted the title or answers here, assuming most folks would prefer the pleasure of discovering these new tidbits for yourselves. Ben ps: first post, although I've been practically choking on trying to digest the last few months' worth of discussion. From bhobbs at midmaine.com Mon Jun 28 19:40:26 2004 From: bhobbs at midmaine.com (Belinda) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:40:26 -0000 Subject: site updates and title of book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103179 I was sure this place would be just buzzing right now! I couldn't wait to find someone to share the excitement with. Guess I'll just sit back and wait for the posts to arrive. Belinda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 01:33:01 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:33:01 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103180 > asian_lovr2: > > That's exactly what I thought. She was asked about wand order, and her > mind shifted to thinking about death order, and in a sense, gave the > right answer to the wrong question. > > HOWEVER... > > On her website she said that the original manuscripts were correct, > that James came out first, therefore died last. > > She further says that the original UK publication was correct which > showed James appearing first, then later changed by the USA publisher. > Attributing this mistaken correction to the rush to publish and > fatigue. Later other editions were corrected to match the USA > editions, and now JKR is correcting the mistake once and for all. Jen: If JKR is correcting this mistake once and for all, effectively opening up an old debate again, it seems like she'd give it a little more hoopla, wouldn't she? Like a Dark Mark over the answer or something? She just casually posts this very important plot-point, something that reverses a belief held for several years by fans, and there's no explanation or retraction or anything? I don't know. You make a good argument though, Steve. Jen Reese From littlehorn489 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 19:49:22 2004 From: littlehorn489 at hotmail.com (bigestbarda) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:49:22 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103181 Gorda wrote: > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates: > > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast > and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and > he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, > then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very > sleep-deprived at the time." > > So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have > been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! > > Here's the test-only link: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 *calms down after checking site, running to kitchen, jumping up and down on the spot, squeaking excitedly, pointing at sister and screaming 'I *KNEW* it* I knew it was significant when I first saw it, and it came back to me last week, when I checked the FAQ, that no-one's ever got it confirmed on which of the later corrections was correct. And... and... and.... I *knew* it. My first Potter thesis, that the first prior incantum order was correct (And much more interesting than the 'edited' version, I have to say) and that something important happened after Lily was murder-a-lised, is somewhat correct. And from JK's own (Well... not literally...) mouth. Aah, and more fuel the theory that Book 6's first chapter will deal with what happened in Godric's Hollow (And my own favourite, that there was a fifth person in the Hollow). I love JK. I really do. (I think the small child inside me that desires to be absolutely correct all the time has just keeled over and died with joy.) "bigestbarda" From heynorty at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 19:45:59 2004 From: heynorty at yahoo.com (heynorty) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:45:59 -0000 Subject: Here we go again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103182 Now, that everyone knows that "The Pillar of Storge" is not the true title. Rowling updated her website with now the correct alleged book 6 title. You need to correctly tap a sequence of bricks to get the information. Actually, I hope this is not the real book 6 title. The hoax!title was better, IMO. The title is: The Half Blood Prince. "heynorty" From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 01:34:33 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:34:33 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > Debra: > I don't think TR was involved in anything good before he went bad, > because as LV he mentions always having had so much hate in his > childhood, and at sixteen years old he said that he had been looking > for Slytherin's method of killing mudbloods for five years. I also > don't think there's a TR Jr. because according to Dumbledore, TR/LV > was the last remaining heir of Slytherin. And since JKR often uses > Dumbledore as a means of relaying information to the reader, I think > we can take that at face value and not argue over how much DD does or > does not know on the subject. But you know, from the way Myrtle described her death, it doesn't sound to me like TR actually deliberately *planned* to murder her. As I recall, he didn't even know she was in the bathroom - she came out of the stall and surprised him in the middle of calling out the basilisk, and she died as soon as she looked at it. I don't know if TR "sicced" the basilisk on her when she caught him, or if it was just there and she looked at it and dropped dead. But I'm pretty sure that, whatever he was planning to do with the creature, he didn't actually PLAN this incident. It just sort of dropped into his lap, and I don't suppose he was sorry to be able to put an annoying mudblood out of his way. But considering how quickly he panicked when he saw the possible consequences to himself of Myrtle's death - Hogwarts being closed, and himself sent back to the orphanage - I wonder just what he thought he was going to do with the basilisk. I would have thought he was bad enough to try to eliminate ALL the "inferior" witches and wizards at Hogwarts with it, but that would have had even worse repercussions. Maybe he just hadn't really thought it all out; he was only 15, after all. Wanda From colfubster at optonline.net Mon Jun 28 20:04:44 2004 From: colfubster at optonline.net (colfubster at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:04:44 -0400 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103184 Gorda: >JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of >the updates: > >"At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's >parents have come out of the >wand? > >James first, then Lily." > >So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have >been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! I saw this. My guess is that V did not kill James at the door. He only stunned him. V then went straight to kill Harry, but had to kill Lily to get her out of his way. James is still alive when the house blows up because of the failed AK. V is vapor, so Peter (who followed V to GH) take V's wand and kills James because James knows Peter betrayed them. This proves that V really was only shooting for Harry. colfubster From colfubster at optonline.net Mon Jun 28 21:51:32 2004 From: colfubster at optonline.net (Col. Fubster) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:51:32 -0400 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103185 Jen Reese: >My US first edition showed Lily coming out of the wand, then James, >implying James was killed after Lily. After the first editions, JKR >and editors said, "Oops, no, James should come out first, then Lily, >because Lily was the last one killed." > >In the above comment at her website, JKR is saying the same thing >again. James should come out of the wand first, and Lily after him, >because James was killed first. That's consistent with the editing >changes they made in later editions. I disagree Jen. The people emerge in reverse order. Notice, the caretaker, Bertha Jorkins and Cedric all come out before James and Lily because those people were killed after J&L. If James comes out before Lily, that means that he died after she did. This is sort of like the time turner for twisting one's brain around. "Col. Fubster" From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 01:39:29 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:39:29 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103186 > Bren: > I would personally LOVE to see that "bloke wearing kilt and poncho > together" or that old guy wearing a flower-pattered night gawn > because it makes his "privates feel...". Enough said ;P > > Or at least, I hope the wizards dress up in very FUNNY combination > of Muggle clothing in GoF. Snow: ARCHIE! I loved Archie needing to air out his privates. What a hoot. One of the funiest lines in the book to me. Wasn't expecting anything like this adult sence of humor. From crobocker at aol.com Mon Jun 28 22:26:16 2004 From: crobocker at aol.com (c_robocker) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:26:16 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Gorda quoted JKR from FAQ section of her website: > > Q: "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's > parents have come out of the wand?" > > JKR: > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very > fast > and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and > he > is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, > then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all > very > sleep-deprived at the time." > Here's my take. Others have no doubt done it better before me: Working backwards from the graveyard: (Reading from the bottom up *should* be chronological) --------- PP uses Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric (1) at the graveyard near the Riddle House. Frank Bryce (2) is killed when they (Voldemort and PP) arrive at the Riddle House at the beginning of GOF. Voldemort kills Bertha (3) in the faraway forest and learns of the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Voldemort attemps AK (4) on Harry but is turned to Vapor-Voldy and flees to the faraway forest. Voldemort kills Lily (5) at GH in order to get to Harry. Voldemort kills James (6) so he can get to Lily and Harry. More murders that occur before GH that aren't seen (7). --------- Summary of last murders by Voldemort's wand before it connects with Harry's in the reverse order: 1. Cedric 2. Frank Bryce 3. Bertha 4. failed attempt on Harry 5. Lily 6. James 7. other murders prior to GH This should be the order that they come out of the wand. Crap. When I started this I thought it would come out the other way. Add me to the confused list. Either that or I need to give the "James was alive when Lily was killed" theory more time. CRobo. From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:25:06 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (One Breath) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040628232506.97572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103188 > Kneasy wrote: > My other theory is that it refers to past events, > specifically Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" > that can live is James and Lily and "while the other > survives" refers to Harry. That way the Prophecy > highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his > parents had to die for it to take effect. Vivian wrote: > I think that you are right about what the prophecy > is saying, Kneasy. I don't think that DD is reading > the prophecy correctly. The prophecy seems to be > the only thing that has stumped DD. With almost > everything else that goes on at Hogwarts and > anything to do with Harry he always knows too much > information, way more than he should know. > > But with the prophecy he is completely clueless. > Trelawney seems to be something DD did not expect. > He tells Harry that he was surprised to hear the > prophecy because when he met Trelawney she appeared > to be talentless. When he does hear her prophecy, > he thinks it could be about Neville or Harry. For > someone who is supposed to know everything, Trelawney > seems to have thrown DD off his game. Amber: I'm new to this group so may I join in this discussion? What makes you think that DD isn't reading the prophecy correctly and is clueless about it? Of course it's easier to interpret a prophecy after the events took place. "The one with power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.. born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." To me this says that the one was not born yet. And more importantly is doesn't say "the one to vanquish the Dark Lord", but "the one with the power". That's very telling, because it implies that "the one" might fail, it's not set in stone that he will succeed.The only two couples who matched the prophecy were the the Longbottoms and the Potters at that time. If we could ask DD which one Voldemort would go to first, I bet my money on it that he would have said Neville at that time. The second part of the prophecy is the tricky part. "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not....and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...." We know it's a boy the prophecy is referring to. We know Voldemort doesn't know about this part so it becomes unpredictable to which one the boys he will go to first. To DD's surprise he goes to Harry first and the impossible happens. The curse backfired and turned him into Vapomort(I love this name)and Harry survived with (some) of Voldemort's power in him. Why Voldemort chose Harry? Only Voldemort can answer that question. Why the the curse backfired? I hope JKR will put us out of our misery with that one at the end of the series. So now we have Harry marked as the Dark Lord (Voldemort) his equal and has power he knows nothing about. What is this power Harry posseses (love?) and how can he use it to defeat Voldemort? To be honest I don't know. Yes James and especially Lily died saving their son, but I don't think it has anything to do with the last part of the prophecy. That both had to die so Harry could live. I'm sorry Kneasy, but I can't buy this theory. IMHO the "neither" refers to Harry and Voldemort, because "either must die at the hand of the other". It's a great theory though. Vivian I agree with you that DD "seems" to know everything, but the reality is he doesn't. In the WW everyone knows he's a powerful and wise wizard. Everybody looks up to him to have all the answerers, but he doesn't as we find out. I'm not trying to find excuses for him, because he did make some (huge) mistakes. But remember he's got this huge responsibility to keep Harry alive and has no one to turn to. To talk about his doubts and fears, is he making the right decisions and so on. McGonagall is only one who comes close to some extend. He gained more respect from me to admit that he did make mistakes. It takes guts to do that. I agree with you also that Trelawney seems to have thrown DD off his game with what she told him that night. I think DD was convinced that she was total fake. It was with that purpose he went to Hog's Head to tell her she wasn't suitable for the post to teach Divination. Is she a true Seer? Not on a conscious level. Just my two knuts Thanks for letting me play Amber whose first post went way too long ;) From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Mon Jun 28 23:58:47 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:58:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103189 > Alina: > I just wanted to point out that half-wizard half-muggle children > (Seamus is one, btw, so's Dean) aren't the only half-bloods in > the books. Hagrid's a half-blood too. Several female characters > are half-wizard, half-something else (Mme. Maxine, for example, > and Fleur to an extent). Stefanie: Quick and dirty post, but...Lupin is a half-blood (WBD chat) Now THAT would be interesting! Any thoughts? Stefanie, who is still holding her breath on this whole title thing From caramelapple at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 00:19:31 2004 From: caramelapple at comcast.net (obviouslyteal) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:19:31 -0000 Subject: Did someone else kill James? (Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103190 Hi guys, I'm new to this site. I also was very very confused when I saw the FAQ... in fact I even confused my self a couple more times before I realised that JKR must have made a mistake. I am pretty sure that we know that James died before Lily.. because she was the last one and sacrificed herself to save Harry. I'm pretty sure that Harry head it that way when he was faced with the dementors, too. So I don't know what's up here... the whole reverse spell thing makes it hard to keep up with anyways so I would see why she would get confused. Or maybe I'm just missing something... "obviouslyteal" From swirskyr at rogers.com Mon Jun 28 19:37:25 2004 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (Rachel) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:37:25 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103191 Could they not just get rid of the Veelas all together? That way there is no real need for the QWC at all (the dark mark can be introduced elseware) and it really does not make a huge dent into the storyline. Rachel From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:10:40 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:10:40 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103192 >>> I, Bren wrote: > Malfoy & co were dressed in PERFECT > Muggle clothing in PoA movie and it *really* bothered me. Malfoy of > all people, pulling off perfect Muggle look!! I thought DEs all > hated Muggles. > > Then Bookworm responds: > I suspect Lucius Malfoy will look perfect in whatever he is > wearing. It is beneath his dignity to look anything other than > impecable, even if he *must* disguise himself as a muggle. <<< Bren now: Hmm. I'm sure Lucius can pull it off if he wants to (or Jason Isaak, more like, hehe). What I didn't like was the fact that Malfoy was wearing a perfect Muggle outfit. For me, GoF gave us a pretty clear idea that wizards don't quite know how Muggles dress, even all-Muggle- loving Arthur didn't know that you are not supposed to wear kilt and poncho together. And there Draco was, in Hogwarts school yard, wearing "normal" clothes, and not just him, his gangs too. They hate Muggles, they hate everything about Muggles, and I have no idea why they even bothered to wear Muggle clothing. And if they were TOLD to wear Muggle clothing like in GoF, it's not like the Malfoys are going to listen... Lucius has Fudge wrapped around his DeathEater finger anyways. Sorry to ramble on about this, it just really bothered me when PoA movie just opened. I'm ok now, hehe. I have to admit, I liked Jason Isaak, lol. I thought he looked rather good in that hairdo... >>> Snow: ARCHIE! I loved Archie needing to air out his privates. What a hoot. One of the funniest lines in the book to me. Wasn't expecting anything like this adult sence of humor. <<< Bren: Oh, I didn't realize it was Archie (never read the comic) but it definitely was HILARIOUS. YEs, one of the best lines in the series I think. Along with every Fred/George line. Bren From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 02:16:28 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:16:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <010401c45d7f$167e1d10$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103193 I'm confused by the whole discussion. If JKR herself admitted that it was a mistake for James to emerge before Lily in the first editions and it was corrected and Lily now emerges before James in all later editions, why are there still theories that Lily died before James did? Alina. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:18:46 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:18:46 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <00d501c45d59$02a1fee0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103194 >>> Sherry with a Y now: Bren: Aww... Did someone mix up your name with "Sherri" =( >>> Sherry wrote: I felt the same way. It sounds too corny to be real. I think it's another red herring, just to keep everyone guessing. I went to the text only part of the web site, and JKR says the Pillar title is not correct. I bet that soon she'll be saying this one isn't either. <<< Bren: Yeah, I'm counting on it to be a red herring, I will lose my faith in JKR if this was indeed the title. We should just wait till July 1st -- which is like 3 days away! C'mon, you guys waited 3 years before, 3 days is nothing! Although I can't figure out why JKR thought 'Pillar of Storge' was SUCH a horrible title ("Rumour" section on her text-only website). I thought it was pretty cool. Brenda From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:22:33 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:22:33 -0000 Subject: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103195 danielmorgan wrote: > > > > Maybe the half blood prince is Mark evans, he could be Harry's half > > brother. Hence the half blood, as for the prince part...I'm still > > working on that... Steve/asian_lovr2 responded: > Unless... James is still alive, has taken his wife's maiden name to > cover his identity, re-married, and produced Mark. ..snip.. > Flaws in the plan- ..snip.. > Doesn't a half-brother sort of invalidate the Dursley/Evans Blood > Protection theory? I (Laurasia) respond: Aha! Not even slightly! You see, the only reason Petunia's blood made any difference at all to Harry's safety was because Lily died to save Harry. Lily's blood which protected Harry from death invoked the ancient magic in Petunia's blood. James does not share Lily's blood. (Unless they are siblings, in which case their marriage takes a whole new meaning.) Meaning, no matter if James was actually alive, Harry being in his presence would do absolutely nothing to protect him from Voldemort. Until James dies to protect Harry, his blood is worthless... It is only blood relatives of Lily who can invoke the 'ancient magic.' Even if Dumbledore is James' father, there will be no ancient magic blood protection invoked because it was *Lily* who died to protect Harry. If James really has taken his wife's maiden name etc, then there is a valid reason why Harry can't live with him- Harry is protected from the evil sorceror with his Aunt, and *not* with anyone else. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:24:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:24:45 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." < snip. > Bren: Yeah, I'm counting on it to be a red herring, I will lose my > faith in JKR if this was indeed the title. We should just wait till > July 1st -- which is like 3 days away! C'mon, you guys waited 3 years > before, 3 days is nothing! > > Although I can't figure out why JKR thought 'Pillar of Storge' was > SUCH a horrible title ("Rumour" section on her text-only website). I > thought it was pretty cool. > > Brenda Alla: I think it is real, although you never know with JKR , of course. I like it well enough. It is fun trying to guess who the prince could be if it is a correct title. I am only hoping that it is not Voldemort. I don't know why JKR thought that "Pillar of Storge" was suhc an awful title. I liked that one too and I liked all the possible philosophical inferences from that title. Nevertheless I do see why JKR would not use it. Yes, yes, she continuously repeats that she writes the books for herself, not specifically for children, but I still think that books target younger audience and that title could be too complicated for them to understand. From allisonblair at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 00:42:18 2004 From: allisonblair at gmail.com (Allison Denny) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:42:18 -0500 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103197 >>> rzl46 wrote: >>> I also agree that the Yule Ball can go. I also think that most >>> of the Quidditch World Cup can be cut. As much as I'd like to see >>> it, I think that the only things truly important in those scenes >>> are Harry's introduction to the dark mark and the introduction of >>> veelas, both of which can be done elsewhere. >> Sherry says: >> Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and >> Bagman there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events >> surrounding the dark mark. > Eustace_Scrubb: > Now apparently the Dursleys do not appear in the GOF movie. If it > starts at the Burrow, what happens to the introductory material about > Little Hangleton and Frank Bryce? Does Harry have his "dream"/vision > at the Burrow? Allisonblair: One way to include all three scenes (Little Hangleton, the burrow, and the Cup) would be for Harry to have the nightmare at the Burrow, the night before they leave for the cup. IMO, Frank's encounter with Wormtail and LV is very important, since that is how we find out that LV has specific plans to kill Harry. Also, the Little Hangleton dream is the first vision Harry has of Voldemort. The visions are obviously a large part of OotP, so I would think they would introduced in the GoF movie. Allisonblair From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Tue Jun 29 00:48:01 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:48:01 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HUGE evidence for time-travelling Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629004801.44570.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103198 In a very old chat (I think it was dated by the time of Globet of Fire release), JKR was asked about Dumbledore's age. She answered that he is about 150 years old; she stated that wizards and witches have large life spans, but Harry would find it out only in later books. ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - agora com 100MB de espao, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:27:04 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:27:04 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103199 >>> > colfubster wrote: I saw this. My guess is that V did not kill James at the door. He only stunned him. V then went straight to kill Harry, but had to kill Lily to get her out of his way. James is still alive when the house blows up because of the failed AK. V is vapor, so Peter (who followed V to GH) take V's wand and kills James because James knows Peter betrayed them. <<< Bren now: Hehe, I like how you think. I posted a similar argument in Message 103142 "Did someone else kill James? (Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?)" ------------------- How did James die AFTER Lily? Perhaps James was at GH after all. But I still believe that there was a 3rd person present at the scene, possibly the mysterious VM servant, the real traitor of the Potters. I can think of a couple of possibilities: 1. Lily holding the baby, VM 'stand aside, silly girl...' -- kills Lily. JAmes, possibly battling with the traitor/3rd party somewhere else, rushes to Lily's aid but too late, got blown up by VM. Then VM goes for Harry, then booroom-chee! 2. The traitor killed James with VM's wand AFTER Voldemort's downfall. Makes sense, the traitor didn't expect the Potters to live, but if his Dark Lord got destroyed then the traitor couldn't let James walk free. James just had learned who the real traitor was all long, he had to go. I personally think it was one of the Marauders, most likely Lupin (thanks Pippin... multiple sighs...) But why did the traitor use VM's wand? It's more powerful? But it's not his own wand... But the wand chooses the wizard... Dunno, too many questions... ------------------------- Bren From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:28:17 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:28:17 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103200 Steve/asian_lovr2: Think of people dying as stacking dinner plates on top of each other. The Last plate on the stack, the one on the top, is the first one to be taken off the stack. Lily dies, so we set her 'death plate' on the table, then James dies and we set his 'death plate' on top of Lily's. That puts James at the top of the stack; last on = first off. Now the plates come off in reverse order. James was the last on, so he is the first off. After James, then Lily's plate comes off the stack. This is how computer stacks work. We call it LIFO (last in; first out). There still seems to be some confusion on who was where and when. I thought this example might help. Snow: I really liked your analogy Steve! Lily=plate1 James=2 Bertha=3 Frank=4 Cedric=5 Wormtails hand=6 To get the whole idea you need to go backwards with the plates. Lets make the following example: Priori Incantatem: backwards to who was killed from last to first: Wormtails hand=6 Cedric=5 Frank=4 Bertha=3 James=2 (James coming out before Lily) Lily=1 So, 1st Lily was killed then, 2nd James was killed then, 3rd Bertha was killed, then 4th Frank was killed, then 5th Cedric was killed then, 6th Wormtails hand came out. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 29 02:28:05 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:28:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) References: Message-ID: <00ea01c45d80$b601b9e0$7690253e@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103201 (Laurasia) wrote: Aha! Not even slightly! You see, the only reason Petunia's blood made any difference at all to Harry's safety was because Lily died to save Harry. Lily's blood which protected Harry from death invoked the ancient magic in Petunia's blood. James does not share Lily's blood. (Unless they are siblings, in which case their marriage takes a whole new meaning.) Meaning, no matter if James was actually alive, Harry being in his presence would do absolutely nothing to protect him from Voldemort. Until James dies to protect Harry, his blood is worthless... It is only blood relatives of Lily who can invoke the 'ancient magic.' Even if Dumbledore is James' father, there will be no ancient magic blood protection invoked because it was *Lily* who died to protect Harry. If James really has taken his wife's maiden name etc, then there is a valid reason why Harry can't live with him- Harry is protected from the evil sorceror with his Aunt, and *not* with anyone else. ~<(Laurasia)>~ Me (Fridwulfa) Now, that makes sense. I don't think James is alive, but this leaves a possibility for some James relatives to show up later. I still can't believe all of his relatives are dead, after all, all pure blood families are conected and the Potters were pure-blood, there must be some uncle, cousin or something like that around. Cheers, Fridwulfa. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jun 29 02:31:43 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:31:43 -0400 Subject: 2 Questions regarding Book 6 Message-ID: <013a01c45d81$38bb9b80$2ee8f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 103202 I was on digest for the last week and must have missed this, so bear with me. Re: July 1st Do we have an official announcement that she's releasing Book 6 title on July 1st or is this fan speculation ? Also, regarding the website, does anyone know the pattern for the bricks to open to the next room ? I'd like to see the supposed title for myself. Thanks ! Kimberly -Meditation... ...it's not what you think. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 02:30:03 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:30:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c45d80$fcbe8d40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103203 ~<(Laurasia)>~ If James really has taken his wife's maiden name etc, then there is a valid reason why Harry can't live with him- Harry is protected from the evil sorceror with his Aunt, and *not* with anyone else. ~<(Laurasia)>~ Sherry I keep going back to the fact, that if my father did that to me, I would never forgive him, no matter what. If he left me with cruel unloving relations, to hide away ... I'd never forgive that. It would be a cruelty beyond what I can imagine. I don't see James as the sort who would willingly turn his son's protection over to someone else like the Dursleys. As a fan, I would feel incredibly betrayed that I had stuck with this series, only to have the author do such a terrible thing to our main character. She keeps telling us that dead means dead. I don't see how she can change and suddenly introduce a perfectly alive James. No excuse could ever make up to Harry for what had been done to him all his life. Sherry G ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:33:11 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:33:11 -0000 Subject: Did someone else kill James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103204 obviouslyteal asked: >Did someone else kill James? I (Laurasia) respond: Even if the Wand Order mix up is true (that is, James dies after Lily) then James still could have be killed by Voldemort. That is: Voldemort kills Lily, which protects Harry. Then he kills James. Then he tries to kill Harry and the curse backfires. In order for Lily to die protecting Harry I would imagine that Voldemort needn't try to kill Harry immediately afterwords, so long as he eventually did, which sealed teh blood sacrifice. So, even if the Wand Disorder is true, whichever way, Voldemort still could have killed James. There needn't be an accomplice on the scene of the crime- it just means Voldemort killed James before he went to kill Harry, but after he killed Lily. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:43:31 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:43:31 -0000 Subject: 2 Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: <013a01c45d81$38bb9b80$2ee8f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103205 > Kimberly: > Do we have an official announcement that she's releasing Book 6 > title on July 1st or is this fan speculation ? > > Also, regarding the website, does anyone know the pattern for the > bricks to open to the next room ? I'd like to see the supposed > title for myself. Debra: Yeah, my thoughts exactly on the July 1st thing. Now that JKR has completely negated Pillar of Storg? as a title, we know that the entire video capturing of getting that as a title was fake. It was from the video that we got the date July 1st, was it not? And if you number the five bricks that move #1-5 from top to bottom, the order to click them is 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Tue Jun 29 00:56:07 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:56:07 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thought about Headquarters security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629005607.66476.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103206 "rzl46" wrote: > If you don't agree with the possibility of Voldemort > gaining access in this manner, suppose then that > Voldemort is in hiding near the area where Dumbledore > informs some other character of the location of the > headquarters. In that manner, then Voldemort has > access to the headquarters. What do you think might > happen then? Rebeka: I know I'm a bit late now, but I've being away from a few days and just started to clean my mailbox (okay, now there're more than 1000 messages!). What I think that might happen? Well, it always annoyed me the fact that if Voldemort really wanted to hit Harry, it would be simplier for him to track him down to the Dursley. I know Harry can't be touched there, but I believe that just prevents Voldemort? Once a Death Eater kills Petunia, I guess it's a free way to Harry, isn't it? Oh well. I just think this little theory of mine got stronger after Jo told this summer will be the shortest stay in Privet Drive. :P ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - agora com 100MB de espao, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:49:06 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:49:06 -0000 Subject: More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: <013a01c45d81$38bb9b80$2ee8f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103207 >>> Kimberly wrote: > Re: July 1st > Do we have an official announcement that she's releasing Book 6 title on July 1st or is this fan speculation? <<< Bren: I only heard it from this group, but it's not like I actively seek for JKR's every word... This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often found myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are namely... (1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) (2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) If anyone can tell me or direct me to the source, I'll really appreciate it guys!! Bren From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Tue Jun 29 01:04:28 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:04:28 -0300 (ART) Subject: Katie -- gone or not? (Re: SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment .......) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629010428.67440.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103208 Luke wrote: > We know that Katie was already on the team before > Harry joined, and no one else was signed on with > Harry in his first year. Since Katie joined a year > a before Harry and she couldn't have been a first > year when she did, she must be in her third year > when Harry joins the team. Rebeka: Yes, I believe she graduated by now, I'm re-reading Philosopher's Stone, and there is mentioned that Katie Bell "was a good finding from Oliver Wood last year, now no longer a reserve." (sorry, translating freely from my Brazilian copy). ===== ~Rebeka From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 02:53:32 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:53:32 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: <40E13B33.17773.47321D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103209 Shaun wrote (quoting his teacher): > "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely effective teacher. What I > am not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how to turn obnoxious > adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined culture of 25 centuries. > Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without making a few boys cry. Tough. > They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, they'll be better for it." Potioncat: To be honest, I have not read the entire thread, although I'm familiar with your posts on Snape's methods. I do have one question about this teacher in particular. (I think he is not too different from McGonagall either) Does he have a wife and family? I believe someone who uses this approach in a classroom is still capable of having a family life. (Although I might not want to be at the dinner table after report cards come home.) Partly this goes along with the threads that wonder about which teachers at Hogwarts have or had families. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:57:28 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:57:28 -0000 Subject: Did someone else kill James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103210 > Laurasia wrote: > > So, even if the Wand Disorder is true, whichever way, Voldemort > still could have killed James. There needn't be an accomplice on the > scene of the crime- it just means Voldemort killed James before he > went to kill Harry, but after he killed Lily. Bren now: But where is the fun in that, I ask! The Godric's Hallow incident has by far the most potential to add *loads* of complexity to the plot, I don't think JKR will miss that juicy opportunity!! Traitors, more traitors, please come forward!! Bren From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:57:34 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who vs. whom? In-Reply-To: <1088456868.11475.48180.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040629025734.48723.qmail@web14106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103211 What if by the time Harry meets Voldemort for the final countdown fight, Voldemort looks like young Tom Riddle/Harry again? What if Harry's blood and Tom Senior's bones are slowly bringing him back to his pre-Voldemort human form? vivian Tyler replies: Ooh, I like that idea! Then it would be more-or-less a fair fight. I don't see how Harry's blood/Tom Sr.'s bones could trigger this transformation, but its an interesting possibility. ===== .backwards sentences say to used I !crap Oh !again go I There __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 02:57:03 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:57:03 -0000 Subject: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) In-Reply-To: <001001c45d80$fcbe8d40$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103212 > I keep going back to the fact, that if my father did that to me, I would > never forgive him, no matter what. If he left me with cruel unloving > relations, to hide away ... I'd never forgive that. It would be a cruelty > beyond what I can imagine. I don't see James as the sort who would > willingly turn his son's protection over to someone else like the Dursleys. > As a fan, I would feel incredibly betrayed that I had stuck with this > series, only to have the author do such a terrible thing to our main > character. She keeps telling us that dead means dead. I don't see how she > can change and suddenly introduce a perfectly alive James. No excuse could > ever make up to Harry for what had been done to him all his life. > > Sherry G You know, that reminded me of the following: bubbles: if you were harry potter for a day what would you do? JK Rowling replies -> If I, personally, were Harry Potter I think I would go and hide somewhere, but that's because I know what's coming! --WBD Could that be what she was referring to? Probably not, considering there is much hardship of other kinds in store for him, what with the prophecy and all. Just thought I'd share my thoughts. ~Debra From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 01:06:48 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629010648.42647.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103213 > Shaun Hately wrote: > I think Harry, all things being equal, would have > been the better choice . Debbie wrote: > I think the answer to why Ron was made prefect lies > in the way Dumbledore does things. Harry > doesn't need the experience of being a prefect. Ron > does need it, because he has no confidence in himself > and he needs on-the-job training to develop. > > What Ron's selection does tell us, as I see it, is that > behind the slacker student there is talent waiting to be > tapped. Amber: I agree with Shaun that Harry would have been a better choice, but you're making some valid points, too. I agree that Ron needed that push in the back so to speak. I guess he got enough self confident to apply for the position as keeper in the Griffindor quidditch-team. From ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com Tue Jun 29 01:33:43 2004 From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com (ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:33:43 EDT Subject: JK's Site Message-ID: <63.2de2c5ca.2e1220f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103214 Does anybody know if there are any websites that record the clues that are discovered at the website? A lot of people can't access the site because of computer issues. I feel so lost when people start to discuss the website tidbits. -Mutt http://www.tradinglinks.com/cgi-bin/classified/classified.cgi?category=antique s27&item=1089332354#OTHER [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 01:18:16 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (Tina Donaldson) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:18:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103215 >Debra: >If anyone has any other suggestions of who this prince is, assuming >this is the accurate title, I am very interested in them. In >addition, if anyone has anything to add that I have overlooked or >forgotten about the parentage of this seemingly insignificant child, >I ask them to also put these theories forward. It's only speculation, >but it seems the logical conclusion. Tina: It seems to me, that we are jumping to the conclusion this Mark Evans (if this is indeed correct information) is a child. Why couldn't Mark Evans be Harry's Grandfather (Lily and Petunia's father)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:30:06 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (Tina Donaldson) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:30:06 -0700 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) References: <20040628232506.97572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103216 With regard to the "it was actually meant to be the Longbottoms" theory, I think the thing that most people are either missing or are ignoring on purpose is the fact that it would be Voldemort himself who would choose his threat (for lack of a better term). It is of little matter if it were supposed to be the Longbottoms in the beginning because the minute Voldemort chose to attack the Potters it was no longer valid. The prophecy, it in its entirety reads "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power that the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." Now, I take the prophecy to mean - The one with the power to defeat Voldemort is on their way, born to those who have defied him three times, born at the end of July, Voldemort will mark him as "the one" but "the one" will have power that the Dark Lord doesn't have (I think this is what "protection" Lily (and James) really gave him. Their love lives in him, Voldemort who does not feel love cannot use this power even though he has some of Harry's blood) and the most important part - "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." Just what it means - one of them must die for the other to have a full life. For neither of them can be their complete selves until that happens. Most seem to be forgetting the "either" (meaning one or the other, not both) part and I am theorizing that "live" means not to live bodily, but to pursue a satisfying existence (thank you to dictionary.com) Okay, thats the end of Tina's theory, I'm just going to sit back now. Tina From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 03:12:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:12:57 -0000 Subject: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: <20040629010648.42647.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103217 > > > Shaun Hately wrote: > > I think Harry, all things being equal, would have > > been the better choice . > > Debbie wrote: > > I think the answer to why Ron was made prefect lies > > in the way Dumbledore does things. snip > > Amber: > I agree with Shaun that Harry would have been a better > choice, but you're making some valid points, too. Potioncat: I wish JKR had written the scene differently where DD tells Harry why he chose Ron. The "you had a lot to be going on..." or whatever it was, makes it seem like Ron was second choice while I think it was intended to make Harry feel better, not for Ron to look worse. I've also been in situations where I had to choose a child for a leadership position. Sometimes you have several candidates and you have to look at all factors. Maybe all are good candidates, but you have reasons for choosing one of them. I recall choosing one because the other was playing sports and not always available. Not that the sporty one was better, but that the sports tended to disqualify her. And yes, I think the prefect position would help Ron to grow and Harry had other opportunities for growth. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:13:22 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:13:22 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103218 >> Debra: >> If anyone has any other suggestions of who this prince is, >> assuming this is the accurate title, I am very interested in them. >> In addition, if anyone has anything to add that I have overlooked >> or forgotten about the parentage of this seemingly insignificant >> child, I ask them to also put these theories forward. It's only >> speculation, but it seems the logical conclusion. > Tina: > It seems to me, that we are jumping to the conclusion this Mark > Evans (if this is indeed correct information) is a child. Why > couldn't Mark Evans be Harry's Grandfather (Lily and Petunia's > father)? Debra: The way we got the name Mark Evans in the first place was the passing mention of Dudley having beaten up "a 10-year-old boy named Mark Evans". From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 03:13:03 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:13:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK's Site In-Reply-To: <63.2de2c5ca.2e1220f7@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c45d86$fe713790$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103219 Does anybody know if there are any websites that record the clues that are discovered at the website? A lot of people can't access the site because of computer issues. I feel so lost when people start to discuss the website tidbits. -Mutt Sherry Mutt, there is a link on the home page for a text only site. This doesn't have all the cool games and secrets, but you can read the rumors, FAQ, news and various other sections and get all the same info. The supposed new title Half blood prince isn't on there yet, which also makes me doubt it validity. Sherry From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 02:51:55 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:51:55 -0000 Subject: 2 Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: <013a01c45d81$38bb9b80$2ee8f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103220 Kimberly wrote: > Re: July 1st > Do we have an official announcement that she's releasing Book 6 > title on July 1st or is this fan speculation ? > > Also, regarding the website, does anyone know the pattern for the > bricks to open to the next room? I'd like to see the supposed > title for myself. Kimberly, Regarding your first question their was a claim that a postmarked letter had appeared to a lucky fan on the JKR website stating the Name of the 6th book was HP and the Pillar of Storge It was postmarked July 1st. Out of the three claims made by this fan or what be it, one appears to be correct and the other two not. The name of a book (very likely Book 6) does appear behind the door. However it's two days early and not the same name as the original claim made a few days ago. As for your second question and I may be going a little OT to say this, I apologise. I tried 43 combinations before the wall moved, and I would like to help you out but it would be a spoiler for those who like to do these things themselves. Should I or shouldn't I? Valky *Elf Note: Just a reminder to everyone -- discussion of the canon content of JKR's site is fine here on this list. For the navigation of the site, please keep those posts to our OT-Chatter list (where the discussion is flourishing): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ Thanks, everyone! From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jun 29 03:23:25 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:23:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) References: <20040628232506.97572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01a501c45d88$71c09b40$2ee8f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 103221 With regard to the "it was actually meant to be the Longbottoms" theory, I think the thing that most people are either missing or are ignoring on purpose is the fact that it would be Voldemort himself who would choose his threat (for lack of a better term). It is of little matter if it were supposed to be the Longbottoms in the beginning because the minute Voldemort chose to attack the Potters it was no longer valid. *Kimberly's comment* That's how I've always read the prophecy. Regardless who he chose, HE chose the one that could defeat him when he "marked" them. Of course it's a literal and a figurative "mark" but the bottom line is Voldemort made the choice as to who's name would be on the prophecy with his. If I recall, the prophecy actually said, "Dark Lord and ? (Harry Potter)". My understanding was that initially it wasn't clear who the prophecy would be about. Voldemort and ? Then when Voldemort "marked" Harry, he chose him as the one for the prophecy. Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 03:10:27 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:10:27 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103222 Bren: > > How did James die AFTER Lily? I can think of a couple of > possibilities: > > 1. Lily holding the baby, VM 'stand aside, silly girl...' -- kills > Lily. James, possibly battling with the traitor/3rd party somewhere > else, rushes to Lily's aid but too late, got blown up by VM. Then > VM goes for Harry, then booroom-chee! > > 2. The traitor killed James with VM's wand AFTER Voldemort's > downfall. Makes sense, the traitor didn't expect the Potters to > live, but if his Dark Lord got destroyed then the traitor couldn't > let James walk free. James just had learned who the real traitor > was all long, he had to go. This is the most logical argument I have heard yet. But it doesn't explain Voldemort's claim that he killed James first. Unless for one of two variations I can think of. 1 James in his effort to defend Lily gets the AK in crossfire, 2 The scenario plays out thus; the traitor or an LV henchman distracts James while LV sneaks in the back door to go for Harry. Lily is there and dies protecting Harry. LV has assumed his henchman took care of James already, therefore assuming his claim to James life per the "first" statement. By the time Harry is attacked by LV the henchfellow is gone and James is bolting to Harry's room to save his family and boom cadda boom the backfired AK kills James. Valky From Lynx412 at AOL.com Tue Jun 29 03:21:45 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) Message-ID: <1cb.24b43596.2e123a49@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103223 In a message dated 6/28/2004 11:06:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, garyfredogal at hotmail.com writes: > It seems to me, that we are jumping to the conclusion this Mark Evans (if > this is indeed correct information) is a child. Why couldn't Mark Evans be > Harry's Grandfather (Lily and Petunia's father)? In OotP Dudley & crew have recently beaten up a 10 yr old named Mark Evans. Harry references the incident just before the Dementors show up. Given that, the speculation is that Mark Evans is a relative of Harry's and will get a Hogwarts letter over the break. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sweetongoo at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:12:31 2004 From: sweetongoo at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629031231.98588.qmail@web52210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103224 Shaun wrote (quoting his teacher): > "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely > effective teacher. What I am not is warm and cuddly. I don't know > how to be. But I do know how to turn obnoxious adolescent boys into > people capable of appreciating the combined culture of 25 centuries. > Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without > making a few boys cry. Tough. They'll thank me for it as adults. Or > they'll hate me. Either way, they'll be better for it." Potioncat: > To be honest, I have not read the entire thread, although I'm > familiar with your posts on Snape's methods. I do have one question > about this teacher in particular. (I think he is not too different > from McGonagall either.) Snape definitely can be compared to McGonagall. She is strict in her own womanly way, she can look at a student with those bulging eyes and they know what is wrong and what is right. Snape has this same look, but since he is a male people get the impression that he is some kind of dark and evil person. Women can use this look without being questioned because it is our trademark. Snape reminds me of a great teacher I had once, he was very stern with his teaching. And if you stepped out of line in his class, you would definitely regret it later. Everyone hated him for being such a 'mean and cruel' teacher, but now I see that he just wanted us to learn the material. And guess what, I did. Now I give him all my respect. SweetOnGoo From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 03:21:06 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:21:06 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103225 > Debra: > The way we got the name Mark Evans in the first place was the > passing mention of Dudley having beaten up "a 10-year-old boy > named Mark Evans". Tina: While that might be true, you are also forgetting that it has been stated in more than one book that the Dursleys (as much as we all wish it weren't true) are Harry's only remaining relatives. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:31:36 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629033136.52184.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103226 Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He could be Harry's half brother. I think it's either Seamus or Voldemort. I say Seamus because he was all set to go to Eton before he got his letter from Hogwarts... ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 03:39:16 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:39:16 -0000 Subject: More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103227 Bren wrote: > This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often > found myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are > namely... > > (1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) > (2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) > > If anyone can tell me or direct me to the source, I'll really > appreciate it guys!! > Actually, I *can* address the graveyard one. Recently Alfonso Cuaron did an interview, in which he stated that he felt they "needed something" in the space where the group would be watching Buckbeak's execution/where Hermione punched Draco. He suggested a graveyard, but JKR nixed it, saying that there was actually a graveyard on the Hogwarts grounds, but in a different spot, and that it would play in the series later. Which is why Cuaron switched to a sundial there. Cuaron was using this as an example of how she didn't "interfere" just to be in control but that she has such a mastery of this whole world that you have to respect her knowledge [paraphrasing]. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:39:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:39:26 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: <20040629031231.98588.qmail@web52210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ashley wrote: snip. > Snape definitely can be compared to McGonagall. She is strict in her own womanly way, she can look at a student with those bulging eyes and they know what is wrong and what is right. Snape has this same look, but since he is a male people get the impression that he is some kind of dark and evil person. Women can use this look without being questioned because it is our trademark. snip. Alla: Sorry, not IMO. McGonagall is strict with everybody. Snape is arbitrarily unfair. (really don't want to get into my "he is not only unfair, but abusive" mood right now) Even if you disagree that he is abusive, I really don't see how anybody can question Snape's unfairness. Even though the end of OoP hints that Snape and McGonagall have friendly relationship, in my mind Snape has a veeeeeeery long way to go before he becomes as good a teacher as Minerva is. :o) From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 03:32:54 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:32:54 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: <01a501c45d88$71c09b40$2ee8f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103229 > *Kimberly's comment* > Regardless who he chose, HE chose the one that could defeat him > when he "marked" them. Of course it's a literal and a figurative > "mark" but the bottom line is Voldemort made the choice as to > whose name would be on the prophecy with his. If I recall, the > prophecy actually said, "Dark Lord and ? (Harry Potter)". My > understanding was that initially it wasn't clear who the prophecy > would be about. Voldemort and ? Then when Voldemort "marked" > Harry, he chose him as the one for the prophecy. Tina: Exactly! Thats how I have always understood it as well, but I can understand the reasoning behind some of the theories regarding the subject. I agree totally with the theory that Neville will definately come into his own. I think Neville's issue is that he is always being told that he will never be as good as his father and mother, but during the fight scene in OoTP, he proved those people, including his 'Gran' wrong. I think that Neville's boost in self confidence (thanks to Harry's training in the DA)is what might had led to the "wrong boy" theory. I am just waiting for him to kick Bellatrix's butt. Has anyone given thought to the theory that when Neville defeats Bella it will revive his parents? I just thought of it just now, seemed like an interesting question to ask. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:44:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:44:16 -0000 Subject: More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103230 Susan wrote: snip. > Actually, I *can* address the graveyard one. Recently Alfonso > Cuaron did an interview, in which he stated that he felt > they "needed something" in the space where the group would be > watching Buckbeak's execution/where Hermione punched Draco. He > suggested a graveyard, but JKR nixed it, saying that there was > actually a graveyard on the Hogwarts grounds, but in a different > spot, and that it would play in the series later. snip. Alla: I really wonder who of important characters may be buried there. I remeber it was discussed here a little while back, but I did not follow that discussion closely, so I apologise. If someone could refer me to the appropriate thread, I will be the most grateful. Someone of teaching faculty sounds like an obvious suggestion. Spouse of someone from the faculty? Is that why the fatc that some teachers are married is important? I doubt that Harry's parents will be there, although who knows. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:45:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:45:36 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103231 Snow: I really liked your analogy Steve! Lily=plate1 James=2 Bertha=3 Frank=4 Cedric=5 Wormtails hand=6 To get the whole idea you need to go backwards with the plates. Lets make the following example: Priori Incantatem: backwards to who was killed from last to first: Wormtails hand=6 Cedric=5 Frank=4 Bertha=3 James=2 (James coming out before Lily) Lily=1 So, 1st Lily was killed then, 2nd James was killed then, 3rd Bertha was killed, then 4th Frank was killed, then 5th Cedric was killed then, 6th Wormtails hand came out. vmonte responds: My gut feeling is that she has made a mistake, again. I think that her American publisher was right all along. If James was killed after Lily then he might not have been at GH at all. So who did Voldemort kill? He says that he killed James first?! So why is the order wrong? She must have made a mistake on her website! If she didn't it can only mean that Voldemort is wrong about what happened that night. Did he think he killed James (and was it really Harry he killed, or someone else impersonating James?). The "fake" James I pressume does not come out of the wand because Voldemort and Harry's wands broke contact after Lily came out. Voldemort then kills Lily and becomes Vapormort. At this point he cannot kill the real James, right? So someone must have picked up his wand and found the real James. Who I wonder? This could also mean that the fake James was buried with Lily. Will Harry find where they are buried and then have to dig out the body for identification? Is Voldemort's body in James's plot? Is it 17/18 year old Harry in their? Or someone else? vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 03:46:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:46:04 -0000 Subject: More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103232 > Bren wrote: > > This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often > > found myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are > > namely... > > > > (1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) > > (2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) > > > > If anyone can tell me or direct me to the source, I'll really > > appreciate it guys!! Potioncat: I snipped Siriusly Snapey Susan's answer to #1 (Hi, SSS) As for #2, even though I'm a newby, I've seen several different threads on the House switching idea, but no one yet has come up with a supporting quote from JKR. I believe this is a sort of "urban myth" within the HP community. And I bet we'll be seeing Storge posts years from now too! From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:49:10 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:49:10 -0000 Subject: JKR Website: Confirmed- Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: <37.49d8fa6e.2e12178e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103233 Neil wrote: Now I'm thoroughly confused. The Night at Godric's Hollow just became a far far far more complex event than I have previously considered. I dumbfounded at trying to contemplate the magnitude of it all. But that makes no sense. That is the way the American version was originally printed and they corrected it to have Lily come before James. Is someone playing games? vmonte responds: Do you think that someone hacked/broke into her website? The same person that made the fake book title video? vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 03:51:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:51:44 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103234 x > Alla: > > > Sorry, not IMO. McGonagall is strict with everybody. Snape is > arbitrarily unfair. (really don't want to get into my "he is not only > unfair, but abusive" mood right now) > > Even if you disagree that he is abusive, I really don't see how > anybody can question Snape's unfairness. > > Even though the end of OoP hints that Snape and McGonagall have > friendly relationship, in my mind Snape has a veeeeeeery long way to > go before he becomes as good a teacher as Minerva is. :o) Potioncat: Hi Alla! Well, Snape is universally strict with everyone and in that I can understand his approach. He is also very unfair to certain students which is not right. His teaching method differs a little from his discipline method. No, I do not think he is as good a teacher as McGonagall. However, I think her treatment of Neville is a little too severe as well. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 03:54:21 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:54:21 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20040629033136.52184.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: > Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > could be Harry's half brother. > > > I think it's either Seamus or Voldemort. I say Seamus because he was all set to go to Eton before he got his letter from Hogwarts... > > ~Melanie That was Justin, and he was muggle-born, not half-blood. ~Debra From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 29 03:52:54 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:52:54 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: References: <20040629031231.98588.qmail@web52210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40E17436.6200.125EE36@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103236 On 29 Jun 2004 at 3:39, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Sorry, not IMO. McGonagall is strict with everybody. Snape is > arbitrarily unfair. (really don't want to get into my "he is not only > unfair, but abusive" mood right now) > > Even if you disagree that he is abusive, I really don't see how > anybody can question Snape's unfairness. Well, can you show us where Snape is unfair? How often it actually happens? I recently went through the books looking at all of Snape's interactions with Neville and I found only one (I think - I can't check my notes again right now) instance where I think Snape was actually unfair to Neville. I was surprised - reading the books through, I always thought Snape *was* unfair to Neville - it's only when I looked closely that I changed my mind on that. So at the moment, I'm not sure whether he's generally unfair or not - except with regards to Harry (which is, IMHO, a special case). I can think of one incident with Hermione when I think he was unfair. But even that only gives me two incidents in five books. And that's not enough for me to condemn a teacher. Maybe if you could say when you think Snape's been unfair - that could be interesting. Because honestly, at the moment, I'm wondering if we've been misjudging the guy. I'd like to think that we haven't been - but I think we need to look at the specific incidents, and see if they can be explained in any other way, or even if they really fit the category of 'unfair'. [Note - 'fair' doesn't necessarily mean 'correct' or 'justified'.] Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:01:27 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:01:27 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Hi Alla! > snip > No, I do not think he is as good a teacher as McGonagall. However, > I think her treatment of Neville is a little too severe as well. Alla: Hey! Do you mean when she publicly chasticised (did I spell this word correctly?) him for losing passwords to Gryffindor Tower in PoA? Absolutely, I thought it was a little too severe as well. BUT, at least in this situation we could see that all students were explained about the danger or perceived danger of the Azkaban escapee lurking around the castle. Neville knew about the danger and still left the passwords unattended. At least I could understand McGonagall's rationale. When Snape goess off the deep end at him in his classes (even when Neville really screws up the potion), I don't see that before hand Neville was given ADEQUATE teaching instruction for him how not to screw up. Therefore I feel that him abusing Neville afterwards is incredibly unfair. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:14:58 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:14:58 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: <20040628232506.97572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103238 Amber wrote: So now we have Harry marked as the Dark Lord (Voldemort) his equal and has power he knows nothing about. What is this power Harry posseses (love?) and how can he use it to defeat Voldemort? To be honest I don't know. Yes James and especially Lily died saving their son, but I don't think it has anything to do with the last part of the prophecy. That both had to die so Harry could live. I'm sorry Kneasy, but I can't buy this theory. IMHO the "neither" refers to Harry and Voldemort, because "either must die at the hand of the other". It's a great theory though. vmonte replies: Hi Amber, welcome to the group. I happen to really hate the prophecy, so I am probably biased. But I think that if JKR really wanted us to understand it, she would have filled in peoples names instead of using words like "neither" (very vague) and "seventh month" (does she mean month of July, or seven months after the prophecy was spoken, and if born in July -- what year?). The prophecy is vague because it is either a hoax, or someone is not interpreting it correctly. vivian - Just MHO From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:19:37 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:19:37 -0000 Subject: Did someone else kill James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103239 ~<(Laurasia)>~ wrote: So, even if the Wand Disorder is true, whichever way, Voldemort still could have killed James. There needn't be an accomplice on the scene of the crime- it just means Voldemort killed James before he went to kill Harry, but after he killed Lily. vmonte responds: There has to have been someone else at GH we don't know about. Why else would JKR keep the events of that night a secret. vivian From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:22:25 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <008c01c45d61$eb2d1e30$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <20040629042225.55378.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103240 Alina wrote: I just wanted to point out that half-wizard half-muggle children (Seamus is one, btw, so's Dean) aren't the only half-bloods in the books. Hagrid's a half-blood too. Several female characters are half-wizard, half-something else (Mme. Maxine, for example, and Fleur to an extent). Personally, I'm sceptical to accept this as the actual title of Book Six,but half-bloodedness is a very broad and ever-present theme in the books,more so than we realize, I think. Alina. This brings to mind Hagrid. I hate to nix the half-brother idea, but look at the age. To be Evans, Mark would have had to have been born 5 years (give or take) after Lily's death. I still vote for cousin. Sorry if these ideas have already been posted. Just got home from work (2 jobs) and am having a hard time catching up!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:23:55 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:23:55 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: <010401c45d7f$167e1d10$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103241 Alina wrote: I'm confused by the whole discussion. If JKR herself admitted that it was a mistake for James to emerge before Lily in the first editions and it was corrected and Lily now emerges before James in all later editions, why are there still theories that Lily died before James did? vmonte responds: Because on her website it now says that James was suppose to emerge first. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 04:53:55 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:53:55 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103242 Melanie wrote: Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He could be Harry's half brother. vmonte responds: And was he born in July? lol From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:04:02 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:04:02 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte responds: > > My gut feeling is that she has made a mistake, again. I think that > her American publisher was right all along. > > If James was killed after Lily then he might not have been at GH at > all. So who did Voldemort kill? He says that he killed James first?! > So why is the order wrong? She must have made a mistake on her > website! (...followed by a long list of unanswerable questions...) > > vivian Asian_lovr2: As I said before, I felt the same way you feel; it had to be a mistake, but JKR couldn't have made it any plainer. --- Quote - www.jkrowling.com - FAQ Text Version --- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 Section: F.A.Q. Q: At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? A: James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time. - - - End Quote - - - Points- ** James first, then Lily ** That's how it appeared in my original manuscript... ** my American editor thought it was the other way aroud... ** (JKR) changed it without thinking... ** then realized IT HAD BEEN RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. (0bviously, my emphasis added) Yes, it's hard to believe, but I can't see any room for for doubt. She say three times in three different ways that the orginally published version was the correct version, and the later corrected version was the wrong version. James first, then Lily came out of the wand. The End. Yes, it's confusing. Yes, it suddenly makes the plot infinitely more complicated, and gives us one more mystery to resolve when there are already too many mysteries to resolve. Yes, it's making my brain hurt. Yes, it undoes conclusions, beliefs, and opinions that I've held for years. Yes, it does open up a whole long list of unanswerable questions, equal to your list plus many more. But, it is none the less correct. As much as I want to believe she once again has made a mistake. She said the same thing in too many ways and with too many variation for there to be room for misinterpretion. I see no recourse other than to accept this as a fact. Let me re-enforce the rumor that the scene where Harry's parents were being killed in the movie 'Sorcerer's Stone', JKR insisted that they NOT show James in that scene. As much as my brain wants it to be 'something else', I have no choice but to accept 'James before Lily' as the order they came from the wand. James died last, so he came out first. Don't know what else to say. Steve/asian_lovr2 From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:07:00 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2 Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629050700.65033.qmail@web53504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103244 Debra wrote: > Kimberly: > Do we have an official announcement that she's releasing Book 6 title on July 1st or is this fan speculation ? > > Also, regarding the website, does anyone know the pattern for the bricks to open to the next room ? I'd like to see the supposed title for myself. Debra: Yeah, my thoughts exactly on the July 1st thing. Now that JKR has completely negated Pillar of Storg? as a title, we know that the entire video capturing of getting that as a title was fake. It was from the video that we got the date July 1st, was it not? And if you number the five bricks that move #1-5 from top to bottom, the order to click them is 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. I cannot get the door to open. HELP!! moonmyyst (who is totally helpless and has a fried brain right now!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 03:42:26 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:42:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron as Prefect Again (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake References: <20040629010648.42647.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <033301c45d8b$18f51a10$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 103245 Oh, Harry would definitely have been the better choice, but I think somebody in the book gave a great explanation for it, and I can't remember for the life of me who it was. Harry would have been more qualified, but sometimes, it isn't the obvious choice, nor the most qualified candidate who needs, and I emphasize the word needs, to fill the position. I don't think we've seen the last of this one. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:00:02 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:00:02 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103246 > Alina wrote: > > I'm confused by the whole discussion. If JKR herself admitted that it > was a mistake for James to emerge before Lily in the first editions > and it was corrected and Lily now emerges before James in all later > editions, why are there still theories that Lily died before James > did? > > vmonte responds: > > Because on her website it now says that James was suppose to emerge > first. Well, since we have no clue how James died, he could have certainly died after Lily. What if Voldemort used another killing curse on James, other than the AK, that kills the vitcim slowly and painfully. Considering that James came out of the wand at the end of GoF, he must have been at GH. So, LV used the slow killing curse on James, moved on and used AK on Lily, killing her, at this point, the curse could have killed James. "kalmeeeh" From sinfulsnape at cox.net Tue Jun 29 04:08:27 2004 From: sinfulsnape at cox.net (SinfulSnape) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:08:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) References: Message-ID: <40E0EB3B.000043.03540@NHCD> No: HPFGUIDX 103247 > Debra: > The way we got the name Mark Evans in the first place was the > passing mention of Dudley having beaten up "a 10-year-old boy > named Mark Evans". Tina: > While that might be true, you are also forgetting that it has been > stated in more than one book that the Dursleys (as much as we all > wish it weren't true) are Harry's only remaining relatives. Yes, it has been stated that Harry's only living relatives were the Dursleys but if JKR was going to put a surprise relative in the books she wouldn't announce it ahead of time. She wouldn't say "The Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives (besides the new surprise relative I will bring into the story in a later book)." It is quite possible that Mark Evans is a long lost relative that no one knew about. As a writer, JKR is not going to let all the secrets out at once. So IMHO I do not believe it matters that we have been told the Dursleys are Harry's only relatives. SinfulSnape From sinfulsnape at cox.net Tue Jun 29 04:11:14 2004 From: sinfulsnape at cox.net (SinfulSnape) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:11:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? References: Message-ID: <40E0EBE2.000046.03540@NHCD> No: HPFGUIDX 103248 ~Melanie > Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is > the half blood prince? He could be Harry's half brother. How could Mark Evans be Harry's half-brother? Mark is only 10 in OOtP and Harry is 15. Harry's parents both were killed when he was 1 which would have been about 4 years before Mark was born, so Harry could not share a parent with Mark. SinfulSnape From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:14:50 2004 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:14:50 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103249 This is just a theory, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed or not, but is it possible that the prophecy is not entirely completed? "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power that the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." Perhaps instead of 'either' meaning 'one or the other', maybe it means ' or'. For example (note the word example), instead of the prophecy ending with "...neither can live while the survies," it continues with something like "Or must join forces with the Dancing Hampster of Doom to vanish the Dark Lord to the Seventh Level of Hell." So it would read like this: ""The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power that the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...Or must join forces with the Dancing Hampster of Doom to vanish the Dark Lord to the Seventh Level of Hell." Then again, I've been up for nearly twenty-four hours, so I could be entirely wrong. Feel free to pick apart my Dancing Hampster of Doom idea to pieces. :) ~Krissy From bamf505 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:14:45 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20040629033136.52184.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040629051445.68233.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103250 --- Miss Melanie wrote: > Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe > Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > could be Harry's half brother. > > > I think it's either Seamus or Voldemort. I say > Seamus because he was all set to go to Eton before > he got his letter from Hogwarts... > bamf here: I didn't think we had learned anything about Seamus other than he's Irish and he's mother's a witch. I thought it was Justin Finch-Fletchly who was slated to go to Eton, as we learned in CoS. I don't think Mark is Harry's Half brother. First off, Harry was a year old when he was dropped off at the Dursleys. If you go with the idea that both his parents died at GH, there's no way Mark and Harry could be brothers. (As Mark is 10 and Harry 15). If you think James lived, wouldn't changing his name to James Evans be just as much of a give away of a name as James Potter? (And why didn't James stick around long enough to take care of Harry?) I'm wondering if the title won't refer to a statue or a person who is 'part-human' (like Firenze or Hagrid, as examples). bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:53:00 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:53:00 -0000 Subject: Death to James in Two Variations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103251 Well, as difficult and confusing as it is, and as much as I don't want to believe it, it seems that I have become the advocate for James being killed after Lily. Among a million other questions, we must now ask how and when DID James die? My first instinct, and that of many others, is to believe Wormtail is the guilty party. The scene generally goes like this- Peter/Wormtail doesn't just tell Voldemort where James and Lily are, he takes him there. Minus several details, Voldemort breaks in and kills Lily, then tries to kill Harry which result in an unprecedented 'Backfire' which destroys Voldemort. Peter/Wormtail collects Voldemort's wand, and as he tries to make his escape he is confronted by James. Skipping many more details, Peter kills James without a shred of mercy. He kills his greatest advocate, his loyal and trusted friend, and protector. I wonder if Rat!Peter's conscience bothers him? He showed no mercy to Harry's father, but Harry showed mercy to him. Perhaps that guilty conscience will catch up to him one day. Altthough, I suspect it will be aided by the strong possibility that Rat!Peter sees, as everyone does, that Voldemort is going to lose the war. One last act of redemption with the desperate hope that it will buy him some mercy when he finally has to face his crimes. The Rat is even selfish in his nobility. Alternate theory- Skipping many details again, just as Voldemort is about to kill Harry, James arrives on the scene. James death curses Voldemort just as Voldemort death curses Harry. Voldemort's own rebounding curse combined with James' curse rip Lord-V from his body, but the power of the combined curses destroys the building, and the building collapse kills James. We have seen the amplified power of combined curses on more than one occassion in the book. (Harry, Ron, & Hermione curse Snape; Trio plus the Twins curse Malfoy; the DA Club member curse Malfoy on the train; etc...) The second one just came to me. Personally, I think Peter killing James with Voldemort's wand is the most likely. Sadly, and painfully, we will probably have to wait 4 or 5 years for the final resolution. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 06:12:42 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:12:42 -0000 Subject: JK's Site In-Reply-To: <63.2de2c5ca.2e1220f7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ReturnOfTheMutt at a... wrote: > Does anybody know if there are any websites that record the clues > that are discovered at the website? A lot of people can't access the > site because of computer issues. I feel so lost when people start to > discuss the website tidbits. > > -Mutt asain_lovr2: I don't know of any place that has cataloged or reproduced them, but you can jump directly to the 'Text Only' website and skip the intro 'Flash' home page. This will take you directly there- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/welcome.cfm Even though my computer is quite capable of rendering complex 'Flash' webpages, and I have a DSL connection, I still prefer to go directly to the Text Only site, skip the games and graphics, and get right to the point. Just passing it along. Steve/Asian_lvor2 From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 06:17:11 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:17:11 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103253 The Sergeant Majorette says: In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "everybody in the world" wrote about how James could have died before Lily, like maybe PP did it with LV's wand, and yadda yadda... Well I must wave the flag here as a patriotic American and point to page 667 of my US paperback: "The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with wide eyes... And now another head was emerging... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. 'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your father...' And he came... tall and untidy-haired like Harry..." So whatever went down at GH, the last one out of the wand, and thus the first to die, was James. Otherwise, James would have come out first and said quietly, "Your mother's coming... Hold on for your mother..." So the US editor was right and JKR's either wrong or messing with you people again. --JDR (immune to those head games because she takes what she reads at face value, glides right over inconsistencies, and, when she gets an outlandish theory in her head, writes a fanfic.) From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 06:21:53 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:21:53 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Well, actually, we don't know that McGonagal *was* in the original > Order. She was not described by Moody when he shows Harry the photo > of them all (Ch 9, OoP), and he seems to go through them in a lot of > detail. She may have taken the photograph, of course, but photography > hasn't come up as one of her interests yet. Like Arthur and Molly, I > feel there's some back history still to come out as to the reasons > for this. That is true, but it proves nothing. There is no evidence that the people that Moody described were the entire order. Harry stopped looking after seeing his parents in the picture. There could have been others, including people who joined after the picture was taken - don't forget that Voldemort's reign of terror lasted more than 10 years (sorry I don't remember where it said that but I think Hagrid quoted 11 years for that). The picture must have been taken fairly early to depict all original members, considering the casualty rate. I believe that the evidence for McGonagal being in the original order and in DD's closest circle is strong starting with the first chapter of the first book and throughout the series. > Whilst not necessarily going for ESE!McGonagal on this slender > supposition, it has been widely noticed before that for some reason > she is not in DD's inner circle of most-trusted people. The day spent > on the wall at Privet Drive seems to confirm this. Really? Who else had access to that information besides Hagrid who is utterly loyal to DD? Proceeding on we see how in GoF the teachers who go with DD to save Harry from Crouch Jr. are Snape and McGonagal. In OoP she is the only Hogwarts teacher who knows of the real purpose of Harry's "private lessons" with Snape (I don't think even Hagrid knows). There are plenty of other examples. Like a good guerilla leader, DD tells no one what he is up to unless he must. > And as soon as she > is given something responsible to do, she 'slips up' (guarding Barty > Crouch Jr); maybe she didn't want him questioned about other matters. She was taken by surprise by the Minister of Magic acting in an illegal fashion. I doubt she had the time to intervene once it became clear what he was doing. Fudge told her he wanted the dementor for protection only, why would she suspect his real plan was to have the dementor perform the kiss instead? Remember that at that point they still thought Fudge is an ally. > By OoP she's been relegated back to nothing much important, and seems > desperate to prove that she is loyal. Maybe another teacher with a > secret in her past that DD is having to work with, just like Snape, > but not so obvious. In OoP the Ministry of Magic passed a series of emergency laws to strip Hogwarts academic staff of any power whatsoever. McGonagal is deputy Headmistress (see Hogwarts admission letter in book 1). This usually implies a bunch of administrative responsibilities aside from teaching classes, which she had to do in very difficult circumstances with Umbridge breathing down her neck. > McGonagall's anxiety on the wall at Privet Drive is > almost like that of a person being blackmailed, desperate to know > that their tormentor is dead, and their secret is safe for ever. I can't see any evidence for suspecting McGonagal of being an evil character, at heart or otherwise. > Re-reading the photo chapter in OoP also reminded me of the > mysterious Caradoc Dearborn, who vanished 'six months after this, we > never found his body'. In JKR's world, I get suspicious when there is > no body. Wonder what he was up to. Perhaps he is masquerading as Neville's toad? :-) If rats don't tyipcally live longer than 3-4 years (animagi excluded), how come that toad is still going strong after 5 years? I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye... Salit From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 29 06:36:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:36:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: References: <40E13B33.17773.47321D@localhost> Message-ID: <40E19A7F.19002.1BB812B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103255 On 29 Jun 2004 at 2:53, potioncat wrote: > Potioncat: > To be honest, I have not read the entire thread, although I'm > familiar with your posts on Snape's methods. I do have one question > about this teacher in particular. (I think he is not too different > from McGonagall either) Does he have a wife and family? I believe > someone who uses this approach in a classroom is still capable of > having a family life. (Although I might not want to be at the dinner > table after report cards come home.) I'm pretty sure he had a wife and family while I was at school. But I'm not entirely certain - he wasn't the type who shared that much about his homelife with us. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 06:42:07 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:42:07 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "everybody in the world" wrote > about how James could have died before Lily, like maybe PP did it > with LV's wand, and yadda yadda... > > Well I must wave the flag here as a patriotic American and point to > page 667 of my US paperback: > "The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with > wide eyes... > And now another head was emerging... and Harry, his arms shaking > madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. > 'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your > father...' > And he came... tall and untidy-haired like Harry..." > > So whatever went down at GH, the last one out of the wand, and thus > the first to die, was James. Otherwise, James would have come out > first and said quietly, "Your mother's coming... Hold on for your > mother..." > > So the US editor was right and JKR's either wrong or messing with > you people again. > > --JDR asian_lovr2: I'm not sure if you are serious or are attempting humor, but isn't it a bit of circular logic to use the US edition to prove that the US Editor is right? That's like saying all my post are right by virtue of the fact that I wrote them... or something along that line. The USA edition DOES NOT match the book as it was originally published. JKR says the USA edition does not match her original manuscript. The UK edition, which is the first publication, has James coming out first. Side note: When the difference between the UK edtion and the US edition was first noticed, people chastised the US editor for doing such a sloppy and poorly written re-write of the scene. Also, many people have held the opinion all along that the first publication indeed contained the correct order, and that the USA edition change, which eventually appear in the UK edition, always was and indeed always will be a mistake. (You can all take a bow now.) On her website, JKR said three times in three different ways that the correct version is James comes out before Lily. She flat out says that the authorization of the change to the US edition was a mistake. UK editions went from the original published order to matching the US edition, and the most recent UK versions have been change back to the original form. (...or, so I've been told.) For details see - Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:04 am Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103243 I think we have to accept it. Steve/asian_lovr2 From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 06:43:08 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:43:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <025a01c45da4$579bbb20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103257 > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "everybody in the world" wrote > about how James could have died before Lily, like maybe PP did it > with LV's wand, and yadda yadda... > > Well I must wave the flag here as a patriotic American and point to > page 667 of my US paperback: > "The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with > wide eyes... > And now another head was emerging... and Harry, his arms shaking > madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. > 'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your > father...' > And he came... tall and untidy-haired like Harry..." > > So whatever went down at GH, the last one out of the wand, and thus > the first to die, was James. Otherwise, James would have come out > first and said quietly, "Your mother's coming... Hold on for your > mother..." > > So the US editor was right and JKR's either wrong or messing with you > people again. > > --JDR Ok. the UK and Canadian editions had James appearing before Lily, indicating that she died first, which contradicted the assumption of events at GH. Then Rowling said that her U.S. editor spotted an error and Lily was actually supposed to come first. Now, on her website, she says that she was very tired at the time her U.S. editor contacted her and he's usually good at noticing small errors, so she went ahead and agreed with him without thinking and it was actually right the first time around. SO, now JKR is claiming that James really did come out first, meaning Lily died first. See, Rowling clearly states that the US editor was wrong, when she's playing headgames it's with vague wording, I don't think we've caught her lying yet. Playing headgames is one thing, but I don't think she would outright lie to her fans. Alina. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 06:54:06 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:54:06 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snow: > > I had wrote something a bit similar to this some time back but my > ideas were relating more with the very first "classroom prophecy" > than her prophecies as a whole but I did hit on a few of the > questions that you were curious about or at best my interpretation > from them as presented through canon. The post was #96426. Geoff: Thanks, I'd missed that post. However, I am still intrigued about the "red-haired man". I wouldn't have described Ron as a man at that point in time and, secondly, if she was making a prediction about the Yule Ball, this was well over a year ahead and why didn't she make the comment to Padma when she was in a Divination lesson? Is there something still to be revealed? It's an interesting thought that, if she is a hopeless Seer (apart from a couple of major prophecies), she still manages to score 50% or so. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 07:11:34 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:11:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass Message-ID: <12e.4530fe60.2e127026@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103259 In a message dated 06/28/2004 4:24:32 PM Central Daylight Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same as > assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' grades. > Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do outstanding > work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must surely get a > better grade than Harry. > > Just a thought. > > Steve/asian_lovr > > I understand what you are saying and surely that's how things would average out if each student were expected to make 10 different potions during the practical exam. But they aren't. Harry only needs to be outstanding once during the Practical portion. Compare that to Transfigurations or DADA or Charms were they are put through a variety of tests. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 07:56:47 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:56:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. Message-ID: <1ab.26164cc5.2e127abf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103260 In a message dated 06/28/2004 2:24:34 PM Central Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > And suddenly I wonder what his statement really meant. Does he have > a high pass rate compared to previous Potions instructors? Or > compared to the expected percentage? or compared to those who take > OWLs who did not attend Hogwarts? or compared to the number who pass > other Hogwarts courses? Or compared to Muggle chemistry > tests....sorry who slipped that babbling potion into my tea I'm betting its compared to the other Hogwarts courses. Remember they only have to sit the written test and make one Potion in the practical portion of the test. They can be outstanding, fail miserably or be average ect. I. Charms, DADA, CoMC, Divanation, Transfigurations ect they are tested on a multitude of practical skills in addition to the written tests. The odd are in Snape's favor. He has a better chance of his students wringing an acceptable out of one potion and written test than the rest of the teachers do out of their students getting every single incantation or swish & flick along with the written portion correct. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Tue Jun 29 08:11:18 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:11:18 -0700 Subject: HP and the Title Character of Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103261 "Debra" Posted: >If anyone has any other suggestions of who this prince is, assuming this is the >accurate title, I am very interested in them. In addition, if anyone has anything to >add that I have overlooked or forgotten about the parentage of this seemingly >insignificant child, I ask them to also put these theories forward. It's only >speculation, but it seems the logical conclusion. And me: If this is indeed the title of Book 6, my immediate thought was Dudley. I read digest, and this is the last Digest I've gotten, so forgive me if someone's already put Dud's name on the block. Lots of people have speculated that Dudley could be the one who is the magical late bloomer... or that his magical abilities have been contained and hidden all this time. I think the "prince" part could be because he is a prince, at least to his parents... a Half Blood Prince. It would make sense to me, since Petunia knows more than she lets on, and as many have said it's possible there were other wizarding folk in the Evans family tree, which is why their parents were so excited that they had a witch in the family. Aesha From chrissilein at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 08:29:42 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:29:42 -0000 Subject: Question for all native speakers! Was: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103262 Hello, I really wonder why the title of book six is called "Half Blood" instead of "Halfblood"? Is that probably a strange clue? Please help me to understand, thank you. From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Tue Jun 29 09:06:10 2004 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:06:10 +0100 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: <1088277364.7616.19331.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c45db8$55991d40$de00a8c0@bethcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 103263 This has just appeared in the News section of the website: Title of Book Six: The Truth Well, the door opened at last and I showed you the title of book six - the genuine title, the title that will appear on the published book, the title I have been using in my head for ages and ages. Unfortunately, however, the door opened on the very same day the ?Pillar of Storg?? hoaxer struck, which left a lot of Harry Potter fans bemused as to whether I was having a joke at their expense by posting another fake title to ?teach hoaxers a lesson?, something I certainly wouldn?t do, as it would simply frustrate, confuse or annoy the 99.9% of you who aren?t hoaxers! I tried to give a clear hint that the title behind the door was the real one by making the ?Toenail? joke as well (see ?Rumours?). But just to clear up matters once and for all Information you take directly from this site will be truthful and accurate (I might occasionally joke, but as time goes on, you?ll learn to tell when I?m joking). Do not trust anybody else claiming to have found information on this site that you cannot access, however seemingly convincing the images they provide to support their story. I never post information on the site that I do not want fans to read immediately. In other words, anybody claiming to have ?discovered? a message that wasn?t due for release yet is lying. There was never anything meaningful behind the door until the ?Do Not Disturb? sign came off! The ?Pillar of Storg?? was never my title, and I did not change it at the eleventh hour because I was ?found out? (I nearly fell off my chair giggling when I read this). I was delighted to see that a hard core of super-bright fans knew that the real title was once, in the long distant past, a possibility for ?Chamber of Secrets?, and from that deduced that it was genuine. Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for ?Chamber of Secrets?, but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information?s proper home was book six. I have said before now that ?Chamber? holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link. Anyway: if you continue to exercise patience, you will find that the Do Not Disturb Door opens again and again giving you further hints about book six. But as a little bonus, and compensation for having been messed around by Mr. or Ms. Storg?, I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And that?s all I?m saying on THAT subject until the book?s published. From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 09:11:56 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:11:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE References: <000401c45db8$55991d40$de00a8c0@bethcomputer> Message-ID: <029401c45db9$20c1c800$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103264 Anyway: if you continue to exercise patience, you will find that the Do Not Disturb Door opens again. and again. giving you further hints about book six. But as a little bonus, and compensation for having been messed around by Mr. or Ms. Storg, I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And that's all I'm saying on THAT subject until the book's published. *** Not Harry nor Voldemort... well at least exclusion is something. One thing makes me cautious about guessing, however. JKR told us that in book five we'll have a female DADA teacher and the fandom exploded with theories. However, it was a char we've never met before and thus couldn't possibly have guessed. I get the feeling it might be similar with the half-blooded prince. Hmmm is it viable that a vital new character be introduced in the penultimate book of the series? Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 09:22:08 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:22:08 -0400 Subject: I've got it!! Message-ID: <029e01c45dba$8d71c440$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103265 Princess Di was actually a witch and Justin Finch-Fletchley is actually Prince William! Thus we have Half Blood Prince in the book six title! Mystery Solved! We now return you to the regularly scheduled book discussions. Alina. P.S. yeah yeah, I know the Prince William is actually two years too young... but Prince Harry is four years too young, so I went with the lesser of two evils. Besides, it's just a joke. *peers around and runs to hide from the strict on-topic list elves* From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 10:09:43 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:09:43 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > As I said before, I felt the same way you feel; it had to be a > mistake, but JKR couldn't have made it any plainer. > > Yes, it suddenly makes the plot infinitely more complicated, and gives > us one more mystery to resolve when there are already too many > mysteries to resolve. > > Yes, it's making my brain hurt. > > Yes, it undoes conclusions, beliefs, and opinions that I've held for > years. > > Yes, it does open up a whole long list of unanswerable questions, > equal to your list plus many more. > > But, it is none the less correct. As much as I want to believe she > once again has made a mistake. She said the same thing in too many > ways and with too many variation for there to be room for misinterpretion. > > I see no recourse other than to accept this as a fact. > > Let me re-enforce the rumor that the scene where Harry's parents were > being killed in the movie 'Sorcerer's Stone', JKR insisted that they > NOT show James in that scene. > > As much as my brain wants it to be 'something else', I have no choice > but to accept 'James before Lily' as the order they came from the > wand. James died last, so he came out first. > > Don't know what else to say. Oh! What fun! Scope for lots and lots of speculation, theorising and re-assessment. It's also a nice coincidence that there are some threads already running that are discussing the Godric's Hollow incident and it's aftermath. Is your statement about JKR insisting that James not appear in the PS/SS movie a documented fact? Not that I'm doubting you, just the opposite - I *want* it to be true. Because you see I have a theory. A very nasty theory. Vile, in fact. It may distress the more nervous among the fans. There's been much discussion going back to I don't know when over the order of the re-appearances from Voldy's wand. One frequently asked question that has never been satisfactorily answered is: "Where's the spell that destroyed Voldemort?" Now it is confirmed that James was the last to be killed and there is still no obvious answer to that question. Unless of course..... Do you see where I'm going? If James died last and that was also the spell that rebounded onto the caster to form Vapour!Mort from a Voldy who strangely didn't seem to leave a body behind (implied by Sirius) then Occams Razor leads one to the conclusion that Voldy!James is a definite possibility. Possession, perhaps? I've often idly wondered why Voldy's name doesn't crop up whenever Harry has his moments of memory recall - it's "He's coming!" Lupin seems surprised when Harry says he hears James's voice calling out the warning. Well, he would, wouldn't he, if he knows something different. Others may argue that the 'Third Party' used Voldy's wand to kill James, but then there's still that missing spell, the one that formed Vapour!Mort. Where is it? Something that traumatic should be capable of recall. Why would somebody else use Voldy's wand anyway? Don't they have one of their own? I can only recall one character that doesn't have a properly functional wand - surely not, no - Hagrid? No, no. I must brood on this some more; re-read the relevant canon, see if more hints are to be found that have previously been disregarded. But you must admit, if it did turn out this way it'd resolve some irritating loose ends. Can anyone find canon that refutes this idea? (That's not a challenge, it's a request for convincing canon-based counter-arguments so that I don't have to scour 5 volumes un-necessarily.) Seems to have all the elements of a classic Greek tragedy, this one. Does JKR read much of that stuff? Kneasy chuckling evily as he thumbs through the canon From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 05:26:05 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:26:05 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20040629051445.68233.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > --- Miss Melanie wrote: > > Someone before me wrote: Any one think that maybe > > Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He > > could be Harry's half brother. > > Evans is a pretty common name, so I don't think Mark Evans is Harry's relative, but that doesn't mean Harry won't. ;) If indeed Mark Evans is a wizard, and attends Hogwarts in book 6, Harry could spend some time figuring out whether or not Mark Evans is indeed related to him or not. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 05:39:22 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:39:22 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103268 >>colfubster: My guess is that V did not kill James at the door. He only stunned him. V then went straight to kill Harry, but had to kill Lily to get her out of his way. James is still alive when the house blows up because of the failed AK. V is vapor, so Peter (who followed V to GH) take V's wand and kills James because James knows Peter betrayed them. This proves that V really was only shooting for Harry.<< Stefanie replies: My sentiments exactly. Furthermore, I believe that the Priori Incantatem that occured at the graveyard in GoF would only show previous AKs commited by Voldemort's wand because that's the spell he was casting at the time. No one has cast the PI spell at the time so the effects may as well be different from when it *is* actually cast. This is how I also justify believing that Peter was using LV's wand when he blew up the street and killed the 12 Muggles. If bumbling Peter were using a powerful dark lord's wand, with the trepidation he must've felt at the demise of his master, and if the wand chooses the wizard and can be unpredictable when not used by it's respective owner, if Peter were using LV's wand, he may basically have been holding a ticking time bomb. Any spell (no less the power of an unforgivable) he could possibly have cast may've been unstable yet powerful. If the graveyard!PI only shows AKs, the 12 Muggles wouldn't have emerged...which then leads me to wonder...would James have been killed much later than the night at GH? If it could be true that Peter wouldn't have had enough control over LV's wand to cast an AK (thus causing the street damage). Could he have been spending time getting used to the wand and *then* killed James? But then, why wouldn't anyone know that James was alive? Stefanie (who's brain has been so messed up by the latest webpage update that it's new mantra has become __(insert character here)__ was co-traitor with Peter [and I mean *every* character] :o?) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 06:33:02 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:33:02 -0000 Subject: Death to James in Two Variations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Well, as difficult and confusing as it is, and as much as I don't want > to believe it, it seems that I have become the advocate for James > being killed after Lily. > > Among a million other questions, we must now ask how and when DID > James die? > Hi Steve, You are not alone. I am pretty darn sure that this is the real story. My GOF has Lily coming out first, but I DON'T CARE Jo says it's t'other way round so I am gonna pencil it in myself! Your Theories are good BBoy but i came upon one just now while I was mulling over the contents of todays posts and JKRs new FAQ answers in my mind and Voila! I have a thought that answers the questions. LV is telling the truth in PS 'the man with two faces' and JKR is making no mistake because..... Voldie killed someone before Godrics Hollow. Someone who looked like James someone he truly believed to be James. But it wasn't James. It was a decoy James as once seen the Remus/James switching spell theory that nobody actually knows is dead because a DE has now replaced the missing person and is operating in secret.That would leave a someone now alive who isn't who they appear to be. .............oh no i just thought up another.................. or nobody ever found James body and the body at Godrics Hollow was every bit James except for what was hidden behind the closed eyelids. This ones been said before though. Valky From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 10:18:59 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:18:59 -0000 Subject: Giants/Half-Giants/Metamorphmagus/TMR's relatives/H&H siblings? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040627224331.026e4860@mail.zip.com.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103270 F Nitschke wrote: [huge snippage, including judicious editing of the following] > 'Can you learn how to be a Metamorphmagus?' Harry asked ... > Tonks chuckled. > 'Bet you wouldn't mind hiding that scar sometimes, eh?' > ... > 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid ... > Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most > wizards need to use a wand, or potions, to change their > appearance." What she says is that if Harry wants to hide his scar, he won't be able to do it "the easy way" by becoming a Metamorphmagus--because you have to be born as one--he'll have to learn "the hard way" which involves using a wand or a potion. HTH HAND -- Phil From sweetongoo at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 10:09:18 2004 From: sweetongoo at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629100919.74313.qmail@web52209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103271 Alla: Sorry, not IMO. McGonagall is strict with everybody. Snape is arbitrarily unfair. (really don't want to get into my "he is not only unfair, but abusive" mood right now) Even if you disagree that he is abusive, I really don't see how anybody can question Snape's unfairness. Even though the end of OoP hints that Snape and McGonagall have friendly relationship, in my mind Snape has a veeeeeeery long way to go before he becomes as good a teacher as Minerva is. :o) If he is 'abusive' then there could only be one reason why he is like that. His love life is an ultimate failure, because if you don't have someone to love you or someone to love at all...then you feel like you should take it out on everyone else. I agree to a point that he is unfair to his students, but maybe there is a deep reason for it. Some of the stupidest people (or clumsiest) come out to be great people if they have the right guidance. Usually those people have been treated like a baby all their life, and perhaps Snape is giving them a push to be an individual. SweetOnGoo *holds breath and waits for someone to yell at her thoughts* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 11:08:56 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:08:56 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adsong16" wrote: > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates: > > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the > wand? > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under > enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong > way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then > realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time." > [snip] > Here's the test-only link: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 HunterGreen: I'm a little confused about all this confusion. When I went to the FAQ the answer to the question was: "Lily first, then James. That's how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time." Perhaps it (the info on the site) was put on incorrectly at first? (thus making an already confusing situation *more* confusing). I'd suggest going to the above link (perhaps re-loading the page or deleting your temporary internet files and THEN re-loading the page), I think it was all just a mistake. ANOTHER mistake, that is. Either that or there's something off with my computer (or my eyes). From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 09:44:13 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:44:13 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: <025a01c45da4$579bbb20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103273 I just looked at this FAQ and it must have altered in the last hour or so - it says now that 'Lily appeared first, then James' and that was the correct way - which implies she died last, after James. Burno From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 11:12:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:12:06 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > Potioncat: > > Hi Alla! > > > > snip > > > No, I do not think he is as good a teacher as McGonagall. However, > > I think her treatment of Neville is a little too severe as well. > > > Alla: > > Hey! Do you mean when she publicly chasticised (did I spell this word > correctly?) him for losing passwords to Gryffindor Tower in PoA? > > Absolutely, I thought it was a little too severe as well.snip Potioncat: Uh oh, here we go again! :-) Actually, given that she thought Neville dropped them somewhere on the grounds or in the castle, and that she thought Black was a deranged, very clever killer, I think she showed amazing restraint. McGonagall and Snape are the only two who really seemed to understand how dangerous Black was. (DD and Lupin certainly didn't!) No I was thinking of the snippy little remark about not letting the foreign students know he couldn't do a simple spell (I've forgotten its name.) Of course, that sort of pales in comparison..... From joj at rochester.rr.com Tue Jun 29 11:20:17 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:20:17 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: <029401c45db9$20c1c800$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103275 Alina said: > Not Harry nor Voldemort... well at least exclusion is something. One thing > makes me cautious about guessing, however. JKR told us that in book five > we'll have a female DADA teacher and the fandom exploded with theories. > However, it was a char we've never met before and thus couldn't possibly > have guessed. I get the feeling it might be similar with the half- blooded > prince. Hmmm is it viable that a vital new character be introduced in the > penultimate book of the series? Joj says: What about Lockhart? Do we know if he's pure blood or not? I think there's definitly more to him than his vanity. Plus she set it up in OotP that he's getting his memory back. Having him lose his memory is a good way to hold him off for 4 more books. Joj From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 11:25:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:25:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: <1ab.26164cc5.2e127abf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103276 Melissa wrote: > Remember they only have to sit the written test and make one Potion in the > practical portion of the test. They can be outstanding, fail miserably or be > average ect. I. Charms, DADA, CoMC, Divanation, Transfigurations ect they are > tested on a multitude of practical skills in addition to the written tests. > > The odd are in Snape's favor. He has a better chance of his students > wringing an acceptable out of one potion and written test than the rest of the > teachers do out of their students getting every single incantation or swish & flick > along with the written portion correct. > Potioncat: Oh, I'm not sure about that. Unless the person doing the testing was grading each stage of the potion making, you would either pass or fail. One little error could cost you an OWL. And in that case, the other classes would be easier to at least pass. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 11:38:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:38:48 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: <029401c45db9$20c1c800$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103277 Alina wrote: > Not Harry nor Voldemort... well at least exclusion is something. One thing > makes me cautious about guessing, however. JKR told us that in book five > we'll have a female DADA teacher and the fandom exploded with theories. > However, it was a char we've never met before and thus couldn't possibly > have guessed. I get the feeling it might be similar with the half- blooded > prince. Hmmm is it viable that a vital new character be introduced in the > penultimate book of the series? > Potioncat: How about the half-blooded vampire....Prince Severus? Actually, now that I think about it, Severus is a pretty good name for a vampire! BTW, are we sure about this title? There's going to be a heck of a mystery about this guy....I wonder if he shows up as far into the book as the prisoner of azkaban did in PoA? Or for that matter, the actual goblet of fire had very little to do in GoF.... From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:20:02 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:20:02 -0000 Subject: Identity of the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103278 This is a very specific title that could be taken two ways, one meaning the title character is actually of royal blood or the other meaning that he only *behaves* like he's royalty. I know I'm not alone in thinking that the half blood prince of the title is most likely a character we've never met before. It's quite possible that it will be a character that will help bridge the gap between wizards and another magical species (centaurs? goblins? house-elves? giants?). This half-human and half-what? character may help the wizards in their war against Voldemort and the DEs. How Harry would have time to interact with such a character while he's busy going to school at Hogwart's is anyone's guess...unless this character attends Hogwarts as a student...or is one of his teachers. If JKR suddenly announced that the title prince was a character we've met before then I'd speculate that it was Firenze. Since it's definitely not Harry nor Voldemort, then any of the current male characters could be the title character with the exception of the Weasleys, the Longbottoms, the Blacks or the Malfoys, who are all pure-blood wizard families. I seriously doubt it's a character we've met before, however, as all the titles of each book have been named after something or someone introduced for the first time in that book. (Yes, I know Sirius was mentioned in PS/SS, but it was NOT mentioned that he was a prisoner or in Azkaban at that time). Who is NOT the prince? There are characters I've definitely ruled out. I do not think the title prince is the briefly mentioned Mark Evans or Hagrid or Lupin or Snape or Dumbledore or Voldemort's heretofore unseen son/brother/uncle. I strongly believe that Voldemort has NO living relatives because it is stated that he is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin. I'm also ruling out Seamus Finnegan, Dean Thomas and Dudley Dursley. The reason I'm ruling them out is that Seamus and Dean are already familiar characters and I think JKR would have definitely have dropped several big clues about this big role they'd play later on, and there have been none. I rule out Dudley because Harry spends his least amount of time with the Dursleys in book 6, according to JKR herself, and if Dudley was important enough to be in the title, then that just doesn't make sense. As for any of DEs being the prince, I can't see it, as they are all Voldemort's minions with no importance other than to carry out Voldemort's orders, much like Crabbe and Goyle do Draco's bidding. As for members of the order, I would automatically say that everyone from Kingsley Shacklebolt to Mad-Eye Moody are, again, familiar characters that already have their place in the books. To be honest, I'd be disappointed if the prince of the title was a character we already know. I would not be surprised if the the half blood prince is the new DADA teacher, as that post needs filled yet again.... Diana L. From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:34:48 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:34:48 -0000 Subject: Identity of the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > > I do not think the title prince is the briefly mentioned Mark Evans > or Hagrid or Lupin or Snape or Dumbledore or Voldemort's heretofore > unseen son/brother/uncle. I disagree! I think Lupin would make the perfect "Half Blood Prince". Look at the canon: 1. Remus of ancient myth (along with his brother Romulus) was a prince. 2. According to JKR's latest interview: Siriustar: "Is Remus a pureblood?" JKR: "Half blood." 3. We have no understanding of Remus' mysterious past. Knowing JKR's penchant for the underdog, and how she loves things to be not what they seem, I think she'd absolutely love the idea of scruffy, shabby, tattered Remus' secret true identity to be that of an exotic and sophisticated royal. If the Half Blood Prince is, indeed, a character we have seen before, rather than a newly introduced one, my money is on Lupin. :: Entropy :: From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:47:17 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:47:17 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103280 >> Alina: >> Not Harry nor Voldemort... well at least exclusion is >> something. One thing makes me cautious about guessing, >> however. JKR told us that in book five we'll have a >> female DADA teacher and the fandom exploded with theories. >> However, it was a char we've never met before and thus >> couldn't possibly have guessed. I get the feeling it might >> be similar with the half-blooded prince. Hmmm is it viable >> that a vital new character be introduced in the penultimate >> book of the series? > Joj: > What about Lockhart? Do we know if he's pure blood or not? > I think there's definitly more to him than his vanity. Plus > she set it up in OotP that he's getting his memory back. > Having him lose his memory is a good way to hold him off for > 4 more books. Debra: I don't think she has more in store for Lockhart than his vanity. She said she modelled him after someone in her own life, whom she must have seen as being purely vanity, as she said he will never guess that he was the model for Lockhart, and that he's probably going around saying he was the model for Dumbledore or something. As for it being a completely new character that we haven't heard mention of even once: I don't think this is a possibility because although we couldn't possibly speculate about the female DADA teacher in OP, this character forms the entire *title*. I still think it's someone we have *barely* met before, because I think JKR gets so much joy out of making the entire fandom go "D'oh!" Some seemingly insignificant character, mentioned once in passing. I think this book will mirror Prisoner of Azkaban in this respect. Before PA was released, we had heard of Azkaban in CS, and we obviously knew what a prisoner was. However, the actual person who was the prisoner of Azkaban was mentioned once in seemingly insignificant passing at the very beginning of SS/PS. I think we should all go comb our books for names. However, there may be no need. Mark Evans was mentioned once in seemingly insignificant passing at the very beginning of OP. He only seems like more because the entire HP fandom has been quivering with anticipation about his last name being Evans. The theories that have come out of this seem so real to us that we may have to remind ourselves that they aren't canon -- yet. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:49:46 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:49:46 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103281 > kalmeeh: > Evans is a pretty common name, so I don't think Mark Evans > is Harry's relative, but that doesn't mean Harry won't. ;) > If indeed Mark Evans is a wizard, and attends Hogwarts in > book 6, Harry could spend some time figuring out whether or > not Mark Evans is indeed related to him or not. Debra: Even if Evans is a common name in our world, I really don't think JKR is that cruel to introduce a character with that name and not give it meaning. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 12:58:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:58:07 -0000 Subject: 24 hours - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > That is true, but it proves nothing. There is no evidence that the > people that Moody described were the entire order. Harry stopped > looking after seeing his parents in the picture. There could have been > others, including people who joined after the picture was taken - > don't forget that Voldemort's reign of terror lasted more than 10 > years (sorry I don't remember where it said that but I think Hagrid > quoted 11 years for that). The picture must have been taken fairly > early to depict all original members, considering the casualty rate. I > believe that the evidence for McGonagal being in the original order > and in DD's closest circle is strong starting with the first chapter > of the first book and throughout the series. > Kneasy: I can't agree. There is no evidence that MM was in the Order. And the fact that she sat in a street for 16 hours after hearing rumours with no information from DD tends to support that view. And DD's greeting; "Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall" does not indicate that DD had passed instructions to her either. She was out of the loop IMO. Now you may be correct; maybe she was in the Order. But as things stand there is no *evidence* that she was. She may not even be a member of the resurrected Order. Yes, she has been seen in the vicinity of GP (in Muggle clothes), but IIRC she has never been reported as attending a meeting, nor has her name been mentioned inside the house as having a connection with the Order. > slgazit: > Really? Who else had access to that information besides Hagrid who is > utterly loyal to DD? Proceeding on we see how in GoF the teachers who > go with DD to save Harry from Crouch Jr. are Snape and McGonagal. In > OoP she is the only Hogwarts teacher who knows of the real purpose of > Harry's "private lessons" with Snape (I don't think even Hagrid > knows). There are plenty of other examples. Like a good guerilla > leader, DD tells no one what he is up to unless he must. > Kneasy: Everybody seems to have access to the information. The owls were flapping around the countryside before MM got to Privet Drive. Saving Harry from Crouch!Moody was not solely the function or responsibility of the Order. It happened at Hogwarts, not the Ministry or some other public place. As a senior teacher and head of Harry's House, she would be involved. Similarly Harry's extra 'tuition'; she would expect to be informed, just as she was with Hermione and the Timeturner. Minerva is an anomoly. She is not definitively fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:58:54 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:58:54 -0000 Subject: Shortest Stay in Privet Drive So Far Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103283 >From the WBD chat: Adele: Will poor Harry be stuck at the Dursleys' all next summer? JK Rowling replies -> Not all summer, no. In fact, he has the shortest stay in Privet Drive so far. I wonder....... Could this be because Dumbledore discovers that the neighbor known as Mark Evans is, in fact, a blood relative of Lily's, and therefore Harry can stay in a more favorable location? Or, even better, that Mark Evans can accompany Harry to the location of the Order (whether it stays at 12 GP or not)? Because I think the wording was "as long as you can call home the place where your mother's blood dwells". And I don't think Harry would have any problem adjusting enough to a new place to call it "home", seeing as how he hates Privet Drive and still manages to call it "home" sufficiently enough to have the protection work. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 13:03:00 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:03:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103284 Entropy wrote: > I think Lupin would make the perfect "Half Blood Prince". > Look at the canon: ... This is a very attractive idea. I've been thinking since re-reading (and re-watching) POA about Lupin's status as the last surviving marauder. We've noted that Sirius's death leaves Lupin as Harry's last (maybe best) father-figure and presumed that Lupin and Harry's relationship will develop, but I don't think it's been remarked that Sirius's death also quietly clears the way for Lupin to take center stage in other respects. I don't have a well-developed theory on this; I just agree that Lupin's one to watch. (Otoh, this was a working title for COS and Lupin hadn't appeared yet at that stage...) Incidentally, I take JKR's new list of characters she loves (as opposed to Snape, whom she loves to write) as confirmation that those characters are NOT secretly evil - i.e. the Trio, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George, Lupin. And finally, I think the most puzzling word in the book 6 title is "Prince". Why royalty, all of a sudden? It's striking that while purity of blood and even "nobility" soi-disant (as in the House of Black) have been central themes so far, the notion of royalty has not reared its head at all, whether Muggle or Wizarding royalty. Royal families in either world also seem to be completely absent from the snippets of history that we've gleaned so far. (I may be wrong about this and would love to have some examples if anyone has them to hand.) But it seems to me that the idea of _nobility_ is so problematic in canon that it would be odd if _royalty_ were a good thing all of a sudden. Carin From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:03:23 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:03:23 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) In-Reply-To: <40E0EB3B.000043.03540@NHCD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103285 SinfulSnape wrote: Yes, it has been stated that Harry's only living relatives were the Dursleys but if JKR was going to put a surprise relative in the books she wouldn't announce it ahead of time. She wouldn't say "The Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives (besides the new surprise relative I will bring into the story in a later book)." It is quite possible that Mark Evans is a long lost relative that no one knew about. As a writer, JKR is not going to let all the secrets out at once. So IMHO I do not believe it matters that we have been told the Dursleys are Harry's only relatives. vmonte responds: Does anyone wonder why Petunia only has one son? What if she did have another son but this son was born magical? Did DD help Petunia out by placing this child with another family? Did he wipe all memory of this child from Mr. Dursley, Harry, and Dudley? And did he remind her of this favor when she received the howler? What did Dudley remember when he was attacked by the Dementors? Does he remember a brother being taken away? I really hope that this Mark Evans was not born in July. I also hope that he is not another version of Tom Riddle, shrunk to babysize at the DoM, and given another chance for a happy life. vmonte From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:12:34 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:12:34 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103286 >> SinfulSnape: >> Yes, it has been stated that Harry's only living relatives >> were the Dursleys but if JKR was going to put a surprise >> relative in the books she wouldn't announce it ahead of >> time. She wouldn't say "The Dursleys are Harry's only >> living relatives (besides the new surprise relative I will >> bring into the story in a later book)." It is quite possible >> that Mark Evans is a long lost relative that no one knew >> about. As a writer, JKR is not going to let all the secrets >> out at once. So IMHO I do not believe it matters that we >> have been told the Dursleys are Harry's only relatives. > vmonte: > Does anyone wonder why Petunia only has one son? What if she > did have another son but this son was born magical? Did DD > help Petunia out by placing this child with another family? > Did he wipe all memory of this child from Mr. Dursley, Harry, > and Dudley? And did he remind her of this favor when she > received the howler? What did Dudley remember when he was > attacked by the Dementors? Does he remember a brother being > taken away? Debra: This reminds me to re-visit an old argument. "Remember my last". My last what? It wasn't "remember your promise" or "remember that letter I sent you" or even "remember *my* promise". "Remember my last". Any takers? From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jun 29 13:16:01 2004 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:16:01 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Identity of the Half Blood Prince: Justin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629131601.14981.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103287 Diana wrote: > Since it's definitely not Harry nor Voldemort, then > any of the > current male characters could be the title character > with the > exception of the Weasleys, the Longbottoms, the > Blacks or the > Malfoys, who are all pure-blood wizard families. Vinnia: What about Justin Finch-Fletchley? He's a muggle born, as far as we know, but for so long we thought Dean is a one too. So he could be a half-blood. And his name is down for Eton, so he must be from a high class family. And he first appeared in book 2. Any comment on this? Vinnia Can't wait for book 6 to come out!!! Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 13:19:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:19:17 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103288 Steve: > > Let me re-enforce the rumor that the scene where Harry's parents > > were being killed in the movie 'Sorcerer's Stone', JKR insisted > > that they NOT show James in that scene. > > > > As much as my brain wants it to be 'something else', I have no > > choice but to accept 'James before Lily' as the order they came > > from the wand. James died last, so he came out first. > > > > Don't know what else to say. > Kneasy: > Oh! What fun! > Scope for lots and lots of speculation, theorising and re- > assessment. It's also a nice coincidence that there are some > threads already running that are discussing the Godric's Hollow > incident and it's aftermath. > > Is your statement about JKR insisting that James not appear in the > PS/SS movie a documented fact? Not that I'm doubting you, just the > opposite - I *want* it to be true. Because you see I have a theory. > A very nasty theory. Vile, in fact. It may distress the more nervous > among the fans. > > There's been much discussion going back to I don't know when over > the order of the re-appearances from Voldy's wand. One frequently > asked question that has never been satisfactorily answered is: > "Where's the spell that destroyed Voldemort?" > Now it is confirmed that James was the last to be killed and there > is still no obvious answer to that question. Unless of course..... > > Do you see where I'm going? > > If James died last and that was also the spell that rebounded onto > the caster to form Vapour!Mort from a Voldy who strangely didn't > seem to leave a body behind (implied by Sirius) then Occams Razor > leads one to the conclusion that Voldy!James is a definite > possibility. > Possession, perhaps? > > Can anyone find canon that refutes this idea? (That's not a > challenge,it's a request for convincing canon-based counter- > arguments so that I don't have to scour 5 volumes un-necessarily.) > > Kneasy > chuckling evily as he thumbs through the canon SSSusan: Love the thought of you chuckling evily whilst thumbing through canon, gathering support for your latest theory. Hee. *I* appreciated hearing, once & for all, from JKR that Harry was in his cot and not in Lily's arms. Some people were SO SURE on that one.... ;-) This isn't a challenge to your budding theory or anything, but one question I have is this: Is it possible that Voldy killed Lily, then went & killed James, and then finally cast the spell which scarred Harry & vaporized himself--just as we've all thought, only with the parents getting coffed in reverse order than we'd thought--and it's just that Priori Incantatum was HALTED before we could see what that spell "looked like"?? Or is my logic faulty here? Siriusly Snapey Susan From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:19:23 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:19:23 -0000 Subject: Identity of the Half Blood Prince: Justin? In-Reply-To: <20040629131601.14981.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103289 > Vinnia: > What about Justin Finch-Fletchley? > He's a muggle born, as far as we > know, but for so long we thought > Dean is a one too. So he could be > a half-blood. And his name is down > for Eton, so he must be from a high > class family. And he first appeared > in book 2. > > Any comment on this? Debra: If he had a witch or wizard parent, I don't think they would have put his name down for Eton first; they'd have wanted to wait to see whether or not he got his letter. Unless maybe they still hadn't told their spouse about their magicality, or they were out of the picture... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 13:32:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:32:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103290 Entropy wrote: > > I think Lupin would make the perfect "Half Blood Prince". > > Look at the canon: > > ... Carin: > This is a very attractive idea. I've been thinking since re-reading > (and re-watching) POA about Lupin's status as the last surviving > marauder. We've noted that Sirius's death leaves Lupin as Harry's > last (maybe best) father-figure and presumed that Lupin and Harry's > relationship will develop, but I don't think it's been remarked that > Sirius's death also quietly clears the way for Lupin to take center > stage in other respects. I don't have a well-developed theory on > this; I just agree that Lupin's one to watch. > > (Otoh, this was a working title for COS and Lupin hadn't appeared > yet at that stage...) > > Incidentally, I take JKR's new list of characters she loves (as > opposed to Snape, whom she loves to write) as confirmation that > those characters are NOT secretly evil - i.e. the Trio, Hagrid, > Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George, Lupin. > SSSusan: I agree with Carin & Entropy very much. This is an intriguing (and imo delightful) possibility. I've never bought into ESE!Lupin-- partly because I don't WANT to, as I like him so much--and partly because I do not think JKR will leave us with all four of the Marauders either dead or evil. Wouldn't it be fun if Lupin turned out to be not only NOT ESE!, but also some sort of key figure? [Oh, wait. Pippin, are you there? I'll be you've already got some kind of theory brewing about how the HBP could be Lupin and he could *still* be ESE! ...as in, the title is an adversarial thing (Harry Potter vs. the HBP). Hmmmm.] Anyhoo...as for your concern that Lupin wasn't even in the mix in CoS, don't forget how many chapters JKR's cut out of early books. Perhaps he was intended to be but "hit the cutting room floor," as it were. And finally, I think it's possible that the portrayal of Lupin's relationship w/ Harry in the PoA movie *could've* been one of those things which gave JKR a chill in watching. He & Harry in the movie clearly were developing not only a mentor-mentee relationship, but Harry was turning to him as his confidante, and one might say even a friendship was developing. I think you're right that the way has been cleared for Lupin to take center stage and that he's the one to watch. Siriusly Snapey Susan From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jun 29 13:33:42 2004 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:33:42 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Identity of the Half Blood Prince: Justin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629133342.86823.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103291 Vinnia: > > What about Justin Finch-Fletchley? > > He's a muggle born, as far as we > > know, but for so long we thought > > Dean is a one too. So he could be > > a half-blood. And his name is down > > for Eton, so he must be from a high > > class family. And he first appeared > > in book 2. > > > > Any comment on this? > > Debra: > If he had a witch or wizard parent, I don't think > they would have put > his name down for Eton first; they'd have wanted to > wait to see > whether or not he got his letter. Unless maybe they > still hadn't told > their spouse about their magicality, or they were > out of the > picture... Vinnia again: This got me thinking, maybe his mom is actually his stepmom? If his birth mother died when he was a baby without telling his father that she was a witch, or if she told him, but like Tom Riddle Sr, he divorced her, then there's no reason to wait for Hogwarts letter. And if his birth mother is the heir of Hufflepuff, it would be interesting... Vinnia Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:36:17 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:36:17 -0000 Subject: JAMES DID DIE BEFORE LILY-- New correction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103292 If you look at posts 103272&103273 they now show that a new correction was made to JKR's web site as of this morning. Snow From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 13:38:34 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:38:34 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > > SSSusan: > Love the thought of you chuckling evily whilst thumbing through > canon, gathering support for your latest theory. Hee. > > *I* appreciated hearing, once & for all, from JKR that Harry was in > his cot and not in Lily's arms. Some people were SO SURE on that > one.... ;-) > > This isn't a challenge to your budding theory or anything, but one > question I have is this: Is it possible that Voldy killed Lily, then > went & killed James, and then finally cast the spell which scarred > Harry & vaporized himself--just as we've all thought, only with the > parents getting coffed in reverse order than we'd thought--and it's > just that Priori Incantatum was HALTED before we could see what that > spell "looked like"?? > > Or is my logic faulty here? Erm, I don't think that's possible. Unless my logic is faulty (getting old, getting old) the spell that appears directly after Bertha should be the final one he cast at GH, the one that rebounded. Unless of course, someone else used his wand, which would be a bit of a swizz IMO. For the sequence to end before we get to that spell would require Voldy to be destroyed before tackling Lily and James. Or it wasn't the rebound from Harry that nailed him, but another spell entirely. Or have I misunderstood your point? Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 13:49:49 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:49:49 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > As for it being a completely new character that we haven't heard > mention of even once: I don't think this is a possibility because > although we couldn't possibly speculate about the female DADA teacher > in OP, this character forms the entire *title*. I still think it's > someone we have *barely* met before, because I think JKR gets so much > joy out of making the entire fandom go "D'oh!" Some seemingly > insignificant character, mentioned once in passing. Not only that, it must be a character who appeared in CoS. The fact that "Half-Blood Prince" was an early draft of the TITLE of CoS seems to me to indicate that whoever it refers to was someone important to *that* book. Yes, JKR could have written out this person completely in order to save him for Book 6, but I suspect that that would have required a major restructuring of the whole book. Rowling's titles are not that tricky - so far, every one has accurately described the "kernel" around which the whole book is constructed. Imagine trying to remove the Philosopher's Stone or the Chamber of Secrets from books one and two in order to put them somewhere later in the series; they'd be completely different stories. So I think that the character was there in the book we read, but the outlines were softened a bit in order to avoid giving away too much information too early. (I think this also strikes down the idea that Mark Evans is the HBP - if Mark is 10 in OotP, then he was 7 during CoS, and I can't see how a child that young, not even old enough to go to Hogwarts if he IS magical, could have had any role to play in CoS.) Although the titles of the books are not tricky, JKR *is*, and I think her hint at the end of the message is meant to trick us. "Not Harry or Voldemort," she says. I think it's Tom Riddle, *before* he became Voldemort. Tom wasn't born bad - he BECAME Voldemort. He even gave himself the name. And a "prince" is one who is not yet king. I think that Book 6 will involved time travel, as so many others have opined, and that Harry will travel back in time to meet Tom Riddle, in order to stop him before he starts his journey to become Voldemort. Maybe he'll try to kill him, maybe he'll just try to interfere with him, or maybe he'll try to reform him; but whatever happens, Harry is going to try to stop Tom from becoming Voldemort. Wanda From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:53:35 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:53:35 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor as Half Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103295 Hi - Not sure if this has been posted, though I tried to look back through the archives. But maybe the Half Blood Prince is a historical figure, namely Godric Gryffindor? As someone else pointed out in a previous post (sorry, I can't remember who), it's odd that JKR's introducing royalty into the stories. Though blood and family status have played large roles so far, actual royalty has not. So, I started to wonder if the title didn't refer to a prince of the past. ALso, when it was mentioned that HBP was almost the title of CoS, I began to wonder about Gryffindor's sword and how it helped Harry save the day. Indeed, CoS seems to be a face off between Slytherin (basilisk, Riddle) and Gryffindor (Fawkes, HP). Also, everything about Gryffindor (the colors, the sword, even Fawkes) seems majestic (though admittedly, majestic does not equal princely). Dumbledore also seems to me to be a majestic sort of figure, and although it's never explicitly been stated (I don't think) that he's the heir of Gryffindor, he certainly seems to be the steward of Gryffindor, as he has possession of both the sword and Fawkes (possibly Godric Gryffindor's bird? See essay by Phyllis Morris on HP Lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-fawkes.html). There are plenty of holes in this theory. Number one would be, why "half blood"? I don't know if there's any canon evidence to support the idea that Gryffindor was pure blood or half blood. We do know that Slytherin and Gryffindor came to disagree about something ... perhaps it was blood related? Another big problem: so what if Gryffindor is the HBP? What happens in Book 6 to make a dead founder become a major (or at least title) character? Ah, JKR, why won't you finish!!! :-) A related theory: the HBP is Gryffindor's heir, whoever he is (Dumbledore? Neville?). Okay, enough silly ramblings from me. I'm headed back to lurkdom. Sophierom From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 13:58:05 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:58:05 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Book Six Title) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > Debra: > This reminds me to re-visit an old argument. "Remember my last". My > last what? It wasn't "remember your promise" or "remember that letter > I sent you" or even "remember *my* promise". "Remember my last". > > It's an expression I think I've come across before, but it's very old-fashioned. "In my last to you, I mentioned that..." etc. It would mean, "In my last letter," or communication. It must date as far back as Jane Austen, though. If it is "last message", though, just when might that have been? Is Dumbledore referring to the original note left with Harry? Or has he sent Petunia more recent communications, and he's just reminding her of something important he told her then? I like the idea that she's secretly receiving messages from Dumbledore; it raises her character by making her a genuine actor, who's participating in the story, rather than just a passive grumbler to whom stuff happens, but who doesn't have much influence. Wanda From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 14:01:51 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:01:51 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "Debra" > As for it being a completely new character that we haven't heard > mention of even once: I don't think this is a possibility because > although we couldn't possibly speculate about the female DADA >teacher in OP, this character forms the entire *title*. I still >think it's someone we have *barely* met before "Wanda Sherratt" : > Not only that, it must be a character who appeared in CoS. The > > fact that "Half-Blood Prince" was an early draft of the TITLE of > >CoS seems to me to indicate that whoever it refers to was someone > important to *that* book. "K" I'm going to agree and say the character needs to be someone who has already appeared, otherwise why even think about naming the book "Half-Blood Prince"? "Wanda Sherratt" : > Although the titles of the books are not tricky, JKR *is*, and I > think her hint at the end of the message is meant to trick >us. "Not Harry or Voldemort," she says. I think it's Tom Riddle, >*before* he became Voldemort. Tom wasn't born bad - he BECAME Voldemort. "K": I did think of that but yet Tom Riddle is Voldemort. They are one and the same. "Wanda Sherratt" : >I think that Book 6 will involved time travel, as so many > others have opined, and that Harry will travel back in time to >meet Tom Riddle "K": I do believe time travel is involved but let me say I don't believe time travel means Ron=Dumbledore. I don't. Harry is going to time travel and in the process it's Harry who messes with something he shouldn't have. It's Harry who causes more problems by doing so. "K" From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 14:04:26 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:04:26 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > > > "Wanda Sherratt" : > > > Not only that, it must be a character who appeared in CoS. The > > > fact that "Half-Blood Prince" was an early draft of the TITLE of > > >CoS seems to me to indicate that whoever it refers to was someone > > important to *that* book. "K": I forgot to mention in my last post I think it's possible the 'Half- Blood Prince' is none other than Salazar Slytherin. Yes, I know, he has this pureblood thing going but sometimes those who protest too much.... From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 14:06:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:06:23 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103299 > "Wanda Sherratt" : > > Although the titles of the books are not tricky, JKR *is*, and I > > think her hint at the end of the message is meant to trick > >us. "Not Harry or Voldemort," she says. I think it's Tom Riddle, > >*before* he became Voldemort. Tom wasn't born bad - he BECAME > Voldemort. > > "K": > > I did think of that but yet Tom Riddle is Voldemort. They are one > and the same. > > Potioncat: And that is the same wordplay that Doby used when he said it was not "he who must not be named" because it was OK to name Tom Riddle. So I agree with Wanda's post as a strong possibility. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 14:10:04 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:10:04 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103300 SSSusan: >>> This isn't a challenge to your budding theory or anything, but one question I have is this: Is it possible that Voldy killed Lily, then went & killed James, and then finally cast the spell which scarred Harry & vaporized himself--just as we've all thought, only with the parents getting coffed in reverse order than we'd thought-- and it's just that Priori Incantatum was HALTED before we could see what that spell "looked like"?? Or is my logic faulty here?<<< Kneasy: > Erm, I don't think that's possible. > Unless my logic is faulty (getting old, getting old) the spell > that appears directly after Bertha should be the final one he cast > at GH, the one that rebounded. Unless of course, someone else used > his wand, which would be a bit of a swizz IMO. For the sequence > to end before we get to that spell would require Voldy to be > destroyed before tackling Lily and James. Or it wasn't the rebound > from Harry that nailed him, but another spell entirely. > Or have I misunderstood your point? > SSSusan again: No, darn it, you've not misunderstood--MY logic is indeed faulty. (I shouldn't even TRY when it comes to these things!) You're quite right. Whatever vaporized Voldy would've come BETWEEN the two Potter parents & Frank Bryce in PI. Though, now, apparently JKR's corrected her website again, Kneasy, saying LILY came first. Phooey. Does that mean the evil chuckling will end? Siriusly Snapey Susan From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 14:11:54 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:11:54 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103301 >> Debra: >> As for it being a completely new >> character that we haven't heard >> mention of even once: I don't >> think this is a possibility because >> although we couldn't possibly >> speculate about the female DADA >> teacher in OP, this character forms >> the entire *title*. I still think >> it's someone we have *barely* met >> before . . . Wanda: > Not only that, it must be a character > who appeared in CoS. The fact that > "Half-Blood Prince" was an early > draft of the TITLE of CoS seems to me > to indicate that whoever it refers to > was someone important to *that* book. Debra: I don't know... Anyone, feel free to shoot me down if you completely disagree, but I think that maybe, just maybe, JKR may have had the same title in mind for a different person. Then again, the more I think about it the more I agree with the whole Tom Riddle thing... After all, she's already established them as separate people, with Dobby's clue ("Not... not *He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named*, sir...") From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 14:13:17 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:13:17 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103302 > Potioncat: > And that is the same wordplay > that Doby used when he said it > was not "he who must not be named" > because it was OK to name Tom > Riddle. So I agree with Wanda's > post as a strong possibility. Debra: Then again, her words were "not Voldemort". As Tom Riddle, he was already using that name among his close friends. From v-tregan at microsoft.com Tue Jun 29 14:26:04 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan (Intl Vendor)) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:26:04 +0100 Subject: Tom as Half Blood Prince (was Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE) Message-ID: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15C7EB93@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103304 Hi All, So we know ... The next book is called Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince from behind the bricks and http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=77 We know that CoS was to be called Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353727.stm >>> What was the original working title of Chamber of Secrets? Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I quite liked that title, unfortunately the story bore no relation whatsoever to the title by the time I'd finished. <<< We know CoS contains clues for books 6 & 7 that JKR believes were overlooked: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=77 >>> I have said before now that 'Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. <<< We know the half blood prince is not Harry or Voldemort: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=77 >>> the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort <<< We know that Tom Riddle is not Voldemort, well, not exactly: CoS, Dobby's Reward >>> "I've just got one question, Dobby," said Harry as Dobby pulled on Harry's sock with shaking hands. "You told me all this had nothing to do with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, remember? Well --" "It was a clue, sir," said Dobby, his eyes widening, as though this was obvious. "Was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freely named, you see?" <<< We know that there is something about diary!Tom that will be important later: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=17 >>> In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary? I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably. <<< This has left me thinking that it is Tom Riddle who is the half blood prince. That's why he chooses an aristocratic nom de plume for his post transformation self. Given the back-story we've seen about his father , I think we can say that Mr Riddle was not from aristocratic lineage, but he seems the type of man who would have been enamoured by any woman who was. So perhaps Mrs Riddle was a royal. And she was a witch. So Tom Riddle is the half blood prince, and we'll be seeing him again in book six. Perhaps Dumbledore's words to Lucius towards the end of CoS: "I would advise you, Lucius, not to go giving out any more of Lord Voldemort's old school things. If any more of them find their way into innocent hands, I think Arthur Weasley, for one, will make sure they are traced back to you" were more a prophesy than a threat. This post is a thinly veiled attempt to reply to Wanda's, Potioncat's, Debra's posts (103294, 103299, and 103301) without just saying "me too". But I don't buy Wanda's time travel prediction. Time travel is a lame plot device for even the most technical authors. JKR only pulls it off in PoA because it is such a wonderfully paced adventure and mystery. I don't think she'd try it again. I hope she wouldn't. No, I think it will be another artefact imbued with Tom Riddleness. Cheers, Dumbledad. PS I cannot work out how to look up Tom's mum in the Lexicon (there's no entry I can see for Mrs Riddle). Please email me off-list if you know where I should be looking. PPS I'm trying to ignore the blurring that using HB as an abbreviation for Half Blood gives me with Head Boy and with Humungous Bighead [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SMeans at charter.net Tue Jun 29 12:48:46 2004 From: SMeans at charter.net (Shawna) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:48:46 -0000 Subject: JK's Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103305 Mutt wrote: > Does anybody know if there are any websites that record the > clues that are discovered at the website? A lot of people > can't access the site because of computer issues. I feel so > lost when people start to discuss the website tidbits. I know there is a site that has been started up about JK's site. It is at www.potterskeys.com You might want to check there....Jim or Osirius might have pictures up of all the rewards that can be found on the JK's site. I know they have screen capture shots of the door that reveals the title of book six. The site is suppose to be dedicated to unlocking the mysteries on JK's website and since Jim and Osirius were the ones that hacked their way through the do not disturb door and found the book with the latin place holder text on it I think they will stay on top of anything that changes on JK's site. Shawna AKA mommaslilangel From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 13:05:15 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:05:15 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103306 "adsong16" wrote: > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of > the updates: > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's > parents have come out of the wand? > James first, then Lily. [snip] > So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have > been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! > Here's the test-only link: > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 However, if you follow that text-only link, you will find that the names are again reversed, restoring the order which we have been accustomed to: --> Lily first, then James. In other words, Lily appears before James, therefore she was killed *after* him. Someone quoted Voldemort in PS/SS saying he killed James first. I think the evidence is overwhelming that this is indeed the case. I don't know quite which is more disturbing: that JKR's website is inconsistent with itself and neither she nor the web-masters spotted it, or that all the contributors here failed to spot it either. -- Phil From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 14:38:01 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:38:01 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > "K": > > I forgot to mention in my last post I think it's possible the 'Half- > Blood Prince' is none other than Salazar Slytherin. Yes, I know, he > has this pureblood thing going but sometimes those who protest too > much.... Doesn't the Sorting Hat all but confirm that SS was pureblood? "for instance, Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards of great cunning, just like him" (Sorry I don't have the page ref; I just grabbed this from the Lexicon.) - Carin From CindyJ2 at cox.net Tue Jun 29 14:38:54 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:38:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <00e101c45de6$cdc5cc90$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 103308 Gorda wrote: > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates: > > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast > and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and > he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, > then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very > sleep-deprived at the time." > > So, Lily was killed before James? James was NOT at GH, as we have > been speculating for a while? What to make of this??!!! > > Here's the test-only link: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 I don't get it... If you follow the link, it says "LILY first, then James..." (Emphasis mine.) The rest of the quote above, however, is correct. Cindy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 14:43:28 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:43:28 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Though, now, apparently JKR's corrected her website again, Kneasy, > saying LILY came first. Phooey. Does that mean the evil chuckling > will end? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Bugger. I wish she'd make up her mind. Not liable to change again, is it? Barring that - yes, it'll have to be put on hold until I can think up some other suitably devious theory with which to challenge the consensus. BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer one of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a part to play in the story? Time to sharpen my stiletto - maybe a bit more character assassination might be in order. Never did like him. So - draft another non-partisan, totally unbiased dissection of the life and times of Mr Black? Why not? Kneasy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 29 14:43:24 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:43:24 -0000 Subject: Dudley the Half Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103310 If Petunia and Dudley turn out to be magical. That would make Dudley a half blood. Dudley Dursley the Half Blood Prince. A scary, unexpected but rather interesting twist. Not to mention Dudley being one of the only two people in the world who are actually blood related to Harry makes him an interesting target for Voldemort. Cheers, Mandy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Tue Jun 29 14:44:19 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:44:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <010401c45de7$8f998cd0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 103311 Note to all! I posted this earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. The web page says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The original poster simply misquoted it, I think. Please, go see for yourself! Cindy vmonte wrote: ----- Because on her website it now says that James was suppose to emerge first. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 29 14:49:57 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:49:57 +0200 Subject: Another theory about the half blood prince References: Message-ID: <001201c45de8$598af010$97896750@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103312 Ok. THe Half blood prince was a working title for CHamber of Secrets. So, we can assume that this misterious half blood prince was present, one way or the other, in the book. We know it's not Voldemort or Harry. And we know too, because JK herself has said so, that CHamber of Secrets it's important for the ending books of the series. So, thinking who appears in this book, that might play an important role later, I've come to the conclusion that the half blood prince is Aragog. He's the leader of his community of acromantulas, and JK has promised we'll see him again. From what we see of him in CoS, he knows more about the castle, the Basilisk and Voldemort than he aknowledges. I think he'll play an important role in book 6, he's the half blood prince. What will happen with him, or how he's going to contribute to Harry's adventures and fight against Voldemort... I don't know. But he's the only other main character, so to speak, that appears in CoS, appart from Lockhart, and I don't think Lockhart will be such an important figure in the books. Think about it, it sort of makes sense. CHeers, Fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 14:54:30 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:54:30 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: > > Doesn't the Sorting Hat all but confirm that SS was pureblood? > > "for instance, Slytherin > took only pure-blood wizards > of great cunning, just like him" > > (Sorry I don't have the page ref; I just grabbed this from the Lexicon.) > > - Carin "K": It just says he only took pure-blood wizards. It doesn't say he was one. ;-) It's sort of like Voldemort and his dislike of that which isn't pureblood and yet he isn't one either. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 29 14:57:53 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:57:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: <010401c45de7$8f998cd0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: <003d01c45de9$74e4a080$97896750@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103314 Cindy jenkins wrote: Note to all! I posted this earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. The web page says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The original poster simply misquoted it, I think. Please, go see for yourself! me (fridwulfa): I rechecked it yesterday a couple of times and she said: "James first, then Lily". THey have corrected it today, too. It seems JK is as confussed as we with all this reverse order of the spells. CHeers, fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 14:57:36 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:57:36 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: <010401c45de7$8f998cd0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103315 "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: ... > I posted this earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. The web page > says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The original poster > simply misquoted it, I think. Please, go see for yourself! JKR quietly corrected the FAQ on her site overnight or early this morning. It now says "Lily first, then James", but for a time yesterday it did say "James first, then Lily". Carin From Hines57 at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 14:03:10 2004 From: Hines57 at comcast.net (hines571) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:03:10 -0000 Subject: talking to basilisks (was fighting dragons) In-Reply-To: <9dub4q+pmat@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103316 Amy Z wrote: > By the time he gets to the Chamber of Secrets, Harry knows that > he's a Parselmouth, that he has been hearing the basilisk talk, > and that whoever has been setting it loose is a Parselmouth too > and has been controlling the basilisk that way. Whatever a > basilisk is, Harry knows he can talk to it. So why doesn't he > say "stay, boy!" to it when it comes after him? Probably because > he doesn't think it will heed him, with another Parselmouth giving > it orders to the contrary. Probably a good bet. Sorry that this is pretty outdated, (I'm new here and just started reading the old posts) but I think I have the answer to this one. It's pretty obvious why Harry doesn't try and talk to the basilisk. Disregarding the fact that he is fighting like crazy to keep himself and Ginny alive, Harry knows that the basilisk wouldn't listen to him. Hermione, and Professor Binns tell him that the monster within the chamber CAN ONLY be controlled by the true heir of Slytherin. No one else. Even though Voldemort (Tom Riddle) isn't the only parselmouth ever, only he and Slytherin can tell it what to do, because it is a monster bred for their own purposes. Hopefully this clears up things a bit. Ryan S. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 15:01:23 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:01:23 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103317 > "K": > > It just says he only took pure-blood wizards. It doesn't say he was > one. ;-) That depends on whether "just like him" covers only "of great cunning" or "pure-blood wizards", too. I lean towards the latter, but there's a little wiggle-room. Carin From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:01:19 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:01:19 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > And that is the same wordplay that Doby used when he said it was > not "he who must not be named" because it was OK to name Tom Riddle. > So I agree with Wanda's post as a strong possibility. "K": Oh I agree the wording would be so like JKR. I also agree Tom Riddle could still be the one. I just personally see Riddle and Voldemort as one. The name might be changed and so might the physical body but they are not two different people. Unless Tom was overcome by some entity which then leaves out *choice* unless Tome chose to accept that entity. If I absolutetly had to choose I would say Tom Riddle is the *Half Blood* prince. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. ^-^ "K" From llarson at Princeton.EDU Tue Jun 29 14:10:21 2004 From: llarson at Princeton.EDU (Laurie Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:10:21 -0400 Subject: More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ED49A24-C9D6-11D8-800D-000A95AF8034@princeton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 103319 Bren wrote: > This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often found > myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are namely... > > (1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) > (2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) > > If anyone can tell me or direct me to the source, I'll really > appreciate it guys!! http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2004_05_09.html ***May 14, 2004 Alfonso Cuaron in Premiere Magazine In the June issue of Premiere magazine, there is an interview with Alfonso Cuaron. While some of it we've seen before, there are few good quotes, including this about Daniel Radcliffe's performance as Harry: (snip) Q: How does the collaboration with Rowling work? Does she have director approval? A: I assume?I don?t really know if it?s contractual or a courtesy, but I met with her. She was great. She was very keen on following the spirit of the book, in other words trying to do a good adaptation. At the same time [she asked me] not to put elements that would contradict the stuff either in her universe or that was going to happen in books five, six. In one moment I had this graveyard, and she says, ?No, that graveyard can?t be there,? and I say, ?Why?? ?Because the graveyard is in this other place,? and she gives you the whole explanation of why.*** Laurie From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 13:56:42 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:56:42 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103320 Kneasy wrote: > Unless my logic is faulty (getting old, getting old) the spell > that appears directly after Bertha should be the final one he > cast at GH, the one that rebounded. Unless of course, someone > else used his wand, which would be a bit of a swizz IMO. For the > sequence to end before we get to that spell would require Voldy > to be destroyed before tackling Lily and James. Or it wasn't the > rebound from Harry that nailed him, but another spell entirely. Your logic agrees with mine -- James and Lily were killed before the attempt on Harry, Bertha Jorkins (long) after the attempt on Harry, therefore the Curse That Failed, the cornerstone of the plot, would have shown up in between these two shadows at the end of GF-- except nothing did! Interesting! Several possibilities...LV did not use the wand (although we see him pointing a wand at Harry in the film of SS). LV used a different wand (why would he?). Because the curse did not succeed, the wand did not register it. But even though it did not succeed something powerfully magical happened -- so powerfully magical that it is the key to the series! Interesting that there's this blank space in the wand's memory! Jamie From armadillof at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 14:50:54 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:50:54 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103321 Ummm...who exactly is this character that is supposed to be coming up? He's a student at Hogwarts, right? How do we know he's going to play a significant role? AF From Hines57 at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 14:42:31 2004 From: Hines57 at comcast.net (hines571) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:42:31 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103322 kalmeeh: > > Evans is a pretty common name, so I don't think Mark Evans > > is Harry's relative, but that doesn't mean Harry won't. ;) > > If indeed Mark Evans is a wizard, and attends Hogwarts in > > book 6, Harry could spend some time figuring out whether or > > not Mark Evans is indeed related to him or not. Debra: > Even if Evans is a common name in our world, I really don't think > JKR is that cruel to introduce a character with that name and not > give it meaning. This is all just speculation of course, but I wonder if we are all reading wayyyyy too much into Mark Evans appearance in the book. Unless I am mistaken, Lily Potter's maiden name isn't mentioned anywhere in the actual text, merely from an interview with JKR. And JKR has repeatedly hinted that the clues are always in the text as to what is coming next. So if Mark Evans was truly meant as a hint to readers, she would've dropped the name Evans in relation to Lily by now. Think of all the other characters we saw emerge later in the series. Mrs. Figg became important after several clues to her identity, Dumbledore speaking about Arabella Figg, Harry referencing her, etc. I don't think JKR would take for granted that every living HP fan had read this chat, and besides if someone hadn't asked about Lily's maiden name, we'd never know. Ryan S. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:09:11 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:09:11 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103323 > AF: > Ummm...who exactly is this > character that is supposed > to be coming up? He's a > student at Hogwarts, right? Not yet. That's only speculation, because he was introduced as a 10- year-old, and Hogwarts students receive their acceptance letters to go in as first-years at 11 years old. > How do we know he's going to > play a significant role? This is also only speculation, because his last name is Evans, which was Lily's maiden name. I personally believe that JKR would not repeat this name if it weren't going to have major significance. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:08:47 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:08:47 -0000 Subject: Students switching (was Re: More Questions) In-Reply-To: <0ED49A24-C9D6-11D8-800D-000A95AF8034@princeton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Bren wrote: > This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often found > > myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are namely... >(1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) >(2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) "K" I've never seen an interview about one of the students switching houses. I believe that's just speculation. I also would love to see proof on that one. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 15:10:30 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:10:30 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103325 SSSusan: > > Though, now, apparently JKR's corrected her website again, > > Kneasy, saying LILY came first. Phooey. Does that mean the evil > > chuckling will end? > > Kneasy: > Bugger. > I wish she'd make up her mind. Not liable to change again, is it? > > Barring that - yes, it'll have to be put on hold until I can think > up some other suitably devious theory with which to challenge the > consensus. > > BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer one > of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a part to > play in the story? SSSusan: Or maybe she took him out because he's DEAD?? ;-) Kneasy: > Time to sharpen my stiletto - maybe a bit more character > assassination might be in order. Never did like him. So - draft > another non-partisan, totally unbiased dissection of the life and > times of Mr Black? > Why not? SSSusan: Sure, no reason why not. It's sure to be luscious no matter who's the target, I'm sure. So just put the emphasis on the SNAPEY part of my handle, instead of the Siriusly. JK--I always liked Mr. Black. But I'll read your character assassination anyway. Siriusly Snapey Susan From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jun 29 15:00:17 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:00:17 -0000 Subject: SSHARP OWW (was: Gryff the Half Blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103326 > Sophierom wrote: > But maybe the Half Blood Prince is a historical figure, > namely Godric Gryffindor? > < > Another big problem: so what if Gryffindor is the HBP? What happens in > Book 6 to make a dead founder become a major (or at least title) > character? Ah, JKR, why won't you finish!!! :-) > Sophierom boyd: My thoughts are heading down a somewhat similar path, Sophierom, with one major exception. We have the following information: 1) A Half Blood Prince, neither Harry nor LV, in Book 6 2) Tied to Book 2 (COS) somehow 3) Portions of this story were removed from COS because it was too soon to tell us 4) LV hates mixed-bloods 5) LV (Tom Riddle) is muggle-born himself And one of the recurring threads around here is speculation about the Hogwarts Founders, particularly Slytherin and Gryffindor. They are so central to the backstory here, yet we know virtually nothing about them. To whit: Why did the once-friendly founders part ways? Did Slyth start evil or change, and why? Why build the Chamber of Secrets? Why did Gryff have a special sword and Phoenix? Why is Tom Riddle/LV apparently connected to Slyth (e.g. heir of, parseltongue)? Why is Harry apparently connected to Gryff (e.g. appearance of sword and Fawkes)? There's certainly more to this, and I have a theory. When the Founders established Hogwarts, they were the epitome of all that was wizarding in their age. Purebloods going back so many generations that they considered themselves a different species, as did all wizards of their age. Wizards considered themselves stronger. Smarter. Magical. Different and obviously *better*. They would no more mix with muggles than they would with apes. And they were equally unrelated. Or so they thought. Then it was discovered that one of their fathers was, in fact, a bloody *muggle*. Imagine the horror! His pureblood mother not only touched a muggle, but ...! And out of this unspeakably unnatural union came Slytherin himself. When Salazar found out, he was incensed with his mother, with the world. He killed her brutally, and much of the wizard world called it good. She consorted with vermin, after all, in their minds. Yet that was not the end of Slytherin's fury. He was filled with self-hatred. He, Salazar, a half-blooded freak. He killed his father. He discovered that his mother was not the only wizard engaging in friendships with muggles, and was determined to eradicate any possiblility of such an unnatural union in the future. He became completely obsessed and sank into his anger. He killed more and built the Chamber of Secrets where he built his plans to cleanse the WW of its sins. And these plans included cleansing that must last forever. Godric, meanwhile, looked at Salazar, remembered his friend as he had been, and realized that half bloods were just as powerful, just as human. He came to believe that such unions were not unnatural, after all. He became a champion for the muggles and half-bloods, and tried to save Salazar from himself. In the end, he was forced to wage war against Salazar to stop him from wreaking more havoc on the WW and the muggle world. Overmatched by Godric, but still determined to eradicate the plague of blood mixing, Salazar launched an insane plan to bring an eventual victory. With ancient, dark magics he made himself virtually immortal, yet bodiless. To use his powers, he would have to take the body of another to use, and whose body would he take from its owner? That of a muggle-born, of course. And so he waited in the Chamber of Secrets for the one who would be his Heir--the one whose body he would take so he could return and cleanse the WW of its half-breed atrocities. One such as young Tom Riddle. And that is why the Chamber of Secrets is so central, why the Founders parted ways, why Godric is on Harry's side, and why Salazar Slytherin himself is the Half Blood Prince. Or, as I like to say, Salazar Slytherin Heaves Absolute Racial Purity On Wizard World (SSHARP OWW). --boyd From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:05:53 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:05:53 -0000 Subject: Another theory about the half blood prince (Aragog) In-Reply-To: <001201c45de8$598af010$97896750@portatil> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103327 > fridwulfa hagrid: > So, thinking who appears > in this book, that might play > an important role later, I've > come to the conclusion that the > half blood prince is Aragog. > He's the leader of his community > of acromantulas, and JK has > promised we'll see him again. I think we'll see him again as maybe an aid in the war of Good vs. Evil, on one of the sides, rather than the title character. > But he's the only other main > character, so to speak, that > appears in CoS, appart from > Lockhart, and I don't think > Lockhart will be such an > important figure in the books. For one, Tom Riddle is also a main character in CoS. For two, it doesn't necessarily have to be a main character. She said that by the time she finished, that title didn't seem to fit anymore. This could be that because of editing, a character was diminished... Just a thought. Debra From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 15:15:25 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:15:25 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103328 Ryan S.: > This is all just speculation of course, but I wonder if we are all > reading wayyyyy too much into Mark Evans appearance in the book. > Unless I am mistaken, Lily Potter's maiden name isn't mentioned > anywhere in the actual text, merely from an interview with JKR. SSSusan: Actually, it DOES appear in text. When Harry's looking at Snape's memory in the pensieve, he watches James call Lily "Evans" several times. Of course, I'm still in agreement that some folks may be putting waaaaay too much emphasis on Mark Evans. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:15:37 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:15:37 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103329 >>> Steve wrote: > > The UK edition, which is the first publication, has James > coming out first. > > On her website, JKR said three times in three different ways that the correct version is James comes out before Lily. She flat out says that the authorization of the change to the US edition was a mistake. > > UK editions went from the original published order to matching the US edition, and the most recent UK versions have been change back to the original form. (...or, so I've been told.) <<< Bren now: I agree with Steve. US edition is much different, heck, it has even different title in the first book. I'm just glad I got my Canadian- British edition ;P What I don't understand is WHY US editor made that suggestion, and on top of that, WHY JKR went along with it. She didn't just make a simple mistake of giving names in order. It's not like she wrote in the book, "then from the end of wand, JAmes came out, then Lily". She describes each character to some extent. This must mean that she had carefully planned the scene. I think a red flag would have waved in her head while writing out the sequences if this were to be a mistake. But then JKR is not very good at math, she could have had the order mixed up prior to writing (in her post-it notes I mean). That is very possible. Anyways, I'm willing to count on JKR's written words on her own website than her spoken words in interviews. Bren From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 29 15:14:25 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:14:25 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103330 Hi, Well, I looked at the door too and there were some things that caught my eye. There is this writing in the mirror, saying 'peeves woz ere!' and there is a half-crescent moon visible through the window. Note it doesn't say that Peeves was here but Peeves was ere. Well, what can it mean? Any theories? Bye Adi From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:18:01 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:18:01 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103331 > Ryan S.: > Unless I am mistaken, Lily > Potter's maiden name isn't > mentioned anywhere in the > actual text, merely from an > interview with JKR. And JKR > has repeatedly hinted that > the clues are always in the > text as to what is coming next. > So if Mark Evans was truly > meant as a hint to readers, > she would've dropped the name > Evans in relation to Lily by > now. I don't think JKR > would take for granted that > every living HP fan had read > this chat, and besides if > someone hadn't asked about > Lily's maiden name, we'd never > know. Debra: OP Chapter 28, 'Snape's Worst Memory': 1. Harry stared at Wormtail for a moment, then back at James, who was now doodling on a bit of scrap parchment. He had drawn a Snitch and was now tracing the letters "L.E.". What did they stand for? 2. It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond- shaped eyes - Harry's eyes. Harry's mother. "All right, Evans?" said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature. 3. "You think you're funny," she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone." "I will if you go out with me, Evans," said James quickly. 4. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily. "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you," said James earnestly. 5. "There you go," he said, as Snape struggled to his feet. "You're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus ?-" "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, *Snivellus*." "Apologise to Evans!" James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him. 6. She turned on her heel and hurried away. "Evans!" James shouted after her. "Hey, EVANS!" From scb1066 at adelphia.net Tue Jun 29 15:07:31 2004 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:07:31 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103332 Cindy Jenkins wrote: > The web page says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The > original poster simply misquoted it, I think. Carin wrote: > JKR quietly corrected the FAQ on her site overnight or early this > morning. It now says "Lily first, then James", but for a time > yesterday it did say "James first, then Lily". It's more than just a little ironic that JKR's initial answer to the FAQ was as mixed up as the original publication of her manuscript!! Well, I guess the debate is settled (again) (for now). But it was fun to think of theories to explain James having died after Lily. It still leaves the question of why LV's killing curse directed at Harry doesn't show up in the Priori Incantatem. "littlegreenpartyhats" From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:26:53 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:26:53 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: <003d01c45de9$74e4a080$97896750@portatil> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103333 > Cindy jenkins wrote: > Note to all! > > I posted this earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. The web page says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The original poster simply misquoted it, I think. Please, go see for yourself! << Bren now: But it doesn't make sense. The rest of reply stays the same as though her original message was meant to say "James first, then Lily". If Lily was indeed supposed to come out first, then there is no need to talk about how her US editor was wrong, no? The rest of post just doesn't make sense with "Lily first, then James" beginning. Or what about "That's how it appears in my original manuscript" statement? Her original edition has James first coming out then Lily, I have the British-Canadian version which is supposed to remain unchanged, I think. I think "Lily first then James" is a hoax or some hacking. She should have changed the whole post if she meant it. Isn't it more logical that she put this under her "Rumour" section notifying the change rather than just simply switching the names without any sign? Bren, thoroughly confused From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 29 15:28:22 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:28:22 -0500 Subject: book 6 release rumors or truth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103334 With all the rumors and hoaxes and new information on JKR's site has anyone heard anything about the release date for book 6? Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:29:48 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:29:48 -0000 Subject: Half blood princess, er prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103335 What about Ginny? Does it have to mean a male? I know, I know, she's a pure blood, but she's had major contact/interaction/possesion with Tom Riddle. I'm not good at theorizing and I can't put my finger on anything in particular. I'll defer to most of you experts in that area ;). I just really, really think there is more to her than meets the eye. And now, in OoP, she's coming into her own powers (bat bogey hex, anyone?). Just my own two knuts worth... Alora :) From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:29:00 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:29:00 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > Well, I looked at the door too and there were some things that > caught my eye. There is this writing in the mirror, saying 'peeves > woz ere!' and there is a half-crescent moon visible through the > window. > Note it doesn't say that Peeves was here but Peeves was ere. Well, > what can it mean? Any theories? > Bye > Adi Presumably it's just "here" in dialect, but if it isn't "ere" means before. Which proves conclusively that Dumbledore is Peeves. From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:23:25 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629152325.51546.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103337 > Gina : > I would say because it shows Harry's "love of saving people" > which is what LV plays on in book 5 and Hermione brings back > up when saying that it could be a trap to get him to the DoM > Gina - even being a big shipper thinks that the Yule Ball > should be cut in lieu of the more important scenes Amber: Yes, it's typical Harry going to the rescue, but I would love to see the first task, too. When Harry summons his Firebolt to him, it would provide great special effects. As your the Yule Ball I would love to see Ron gaping at Hermione, when she appears at ball with Krum. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:35:13 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:35:13 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103338 snip. > SSSusan: snip > > Wouldn't it be fun if Lupin turned out to be not only NOT ESE!, but > also some sort of key figure? > > [Oh, wait. Pippin, are you there? I'll be you've already got some > kind of theory brewing about how the HBP could be Lupin and he could > *still* be ESE! ...as in, the title is an adversarial thing (Harry > Potter vs. the HBP). Hmmmm.] snip. > And finally, I think it's possible that the portrayal of Lupin's > relationship w/ Harry in the PoA movie *could've* been one of those > things which gave JKR a chill in watching. He & Harry in the movie > clearly were developing not only a mentor-mentee relationship, but > Harry was turning to him as his confidante, and one might say even a > friendship was developing. > > I think you're right that the way has been cleared for Lupin to take > center stage and that he's the one to watch. Alla: Love, love, love that idea. I confess that I was kind of ready to buy into Pippin's ESE! Lupin after all. Not because I believed it much (Pippin argues fantastically, but TO ME it goes against spirit of the books), but because I was ready to buy into anything, which makes Lupin more interesting, more gray, tortured character . I abandoned ESE! Lupin ship after seeing the movie. The actor has too much pain and too much love in his eyes when he looks at Harry to ever turn out to be ESE!, IMO. Metathinking? Yes, so sue me. :o) Lupin turning to be royalty and being on the center stage in book 6 is something which I would love to happen. I am hoping that it is not going to be Tom Riddle or a new character. Lupin all the way. :o) From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:32:27 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:32:27 -0000 Subject: Half blood princess, er prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alora" wrote: > What about Ginny? > > Does it have to mean a male? I know, I know, she's a pure blood, > but she's had major contact/interaction/possesion with Tom Riddle. > I'm not good at theorizing and I can't put my finger on anything in > particular. I'll defer to most of you experts in that area ;). I > just really, really think there is more to her than meets the eye. > And now, in OoP, she's coming into her own powers (bat bogey hex, > anyone?). Just my own two knuts worth... > > Alora :) It's me again. I should add that I actually believe the half blood prince is probably someone from the past, but I would like for it to be someone unexpected ;) Alora From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:37:34 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:37:34 -0000 Subject: What shows up in Priori Incantatem? (Was Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103340 > littlegreenpartyhats wrote: > It still leaves the question > of why LV's killing curse > directed at Harry doesn't > show up in the Priori Incantatem. I actually brought that discussion up the other day with a few people. Priori Incantatem supposedly shows, in reverse order, the spells the wand performed, not the people the wand killed. Why, then, was there no echo of the intermediate magic VDM performed to get to various stages on his quest for resurrection? Possibly they weren't performed with his own wand, but how do you explain the lack of echo of the Cruciatus and Imperius Curses we saw him perform on Harry in the graveyard? And the Cruciatus Curses he had undoubtably performed on Wormtail for disservice, which Harry didn't feel because the connection was not yet strong enough? And then there's that tried and true question of why nothing came out of the wand that represented the failed curse. And then, consequently, what *should* have come out of the wand? Maybe an echo of the lightning bolt scar? Some of these, probably the Cruciatus Curses, can be attributed to the screams of pain the wand issued between some of the echoes. But what happened to the others? Debra From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:33:38 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:33:38 -0000 Subject: Reason for Neville as the HBP, and side notes about Lupin, Tom, and Mark Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103341 In the Extra Stuff section on Dean Thomas, JK talks about how she wanted to include a lot about him in Chamber of Secrets, which got me thinking that maybe *he* was the HBP--but then she mentions that his background story will probably never find a place in the books now. Since I don't think JK would actually lie just to throw us off the track, my interest fell on the sentence following the one dismissing Dean's background story--where she says that she sacrificed Dean's story for Neville's development, because Neville is a bigger part of the central plot. So I don't know. I think Neville has potential at least. I like the idea of Lupin being the HBP too. He's one of my favorite characters, and I've always felt like he totally got shafted at the end of POA--Harry sends all year developing this relationship and then Sirius comes along and he's completely swept aside. As for Tom Riddle as the Half Blood Prince--it's certainly possible, but I will be even more disappointed with that than with the prophecy at the end of OoTP (which I spent hundreds of pages biting my nails to find out and then it was just that Harry has to be the one to defeat Voldy? I could have told you that without ever having read the books and having only a vague idea of the plot of the series. The protagonist is always the one responsible for vanquishing the antagonist). Tom as the HBP is just too obvious, even if she is trying to throw us off by saying it's not Voldy. Also--hasn't it already been pointed out on here that Mark spells his last name differently from Lily? One uses an "a" and one uses an "e." Harry has *no* other living relatives, people. Accept it. a From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:40:38 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:40:38 -0000 Subject: Concentrating on the "Prince" part Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103342 Prince really has two meanings. First, there is the title of nobility and it's loose applications. One could consider Draco a "prince" of the wizarding world in the sense that he is the son of one of the most prominent families. But secondly, there is the notion of prince not as the inheritor of a prominent/royal family, but as one who is notable or prominent by his deeds. The merchant prince definition if you will. I find it intriguing that the novels have strong themes that would apply in each case. Tom Riddle makes much of the fact that he is descended from a great wizard, Harry obsessed over his lineage, as does Neville (in a very different way). But then, we are repeatedly told that it is our choices, our deeds that make us what we are. I suspect that there may well be two characters in the book who could be identified as the prince of the half bloods and that it won't be clear which is the intended until the end. One character for each definition. It would be an excellent way to delve into the difference and the importance of deeds over inherited title. I see one character of Lockhartian proportions. Perhaps a very wealthy, prominent, respected halfblood family (Weasleys but with money) has a son who is well, Lockhart-like, all bluster and fluff. The other character comes from a more hardworking family that isn't well known, like the Weasleys but without the name recognition. He doesn't bluster, he just goes out and gets it done. Pre speculation of course, but it would seem to fit the themes. From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:43:14 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:43:14 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103343 >> Adi: >> Well, I looked at the door >> too and there were some things >> that caught my eye. There is >> this writing in the mirror, >> saying 'peeves woz ere!' and >> there is a half-crescent moon >> visible through the window. >> Note it doesn't say that >> Peeves was here but Peeves was >> ere. Well, what can it mean? >> Any theories? > gregory_lynn: > Presumably it's just "here" > in dialect, but if it isn't "ere" > means before. > > Which proves conclusively that > Dumbledore is Peeves. Debra: Whoa. What? Not gonne even try to wrap my mind around that one. Just wanted to say that in conjunction with the spelling of 'was' as 'woz', and the establishment of the character of Peeves as simply a jokester, I assumed it just went to show how well Peeves can spell. After all, I think he's comparable to Fred and George for caring much more about jokes than edjamakashun. From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:46:53 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:46:53 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Ryan S.: > > This is all just speculation of course, but I wonder if we are all > > reading wayyyyy too much into Mark Evans appearance in the book. > > Unless I am mistaken, Lily Potter's maiden name isn't mentioned > > anywhere in the actual text, merely from an interview with JKR. > > > SSSusan: > Actually, it DOES appear in text. When Harry's looking at Snape's > memory in the pensieve, he watches James call Lily "Evans" several > times. > > Of course, I'm still in agreement that some folks may be putting > waaaaay too much emphasis on Mark Evans. ;-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan HermioneNYC: I have learned that there are no such things as coincidences in Rowling's books. Even if Evans is a common last name...she took the time NOT to use it anywhere else in the 5 books. Plus...he doesn't have to be related to Harry in ANY way...like we've been saying...it's a common last name, so Rowling might have used it to tip us off..make us remember it without there being any relation to Harry...Interesting, don't you think.... As for any other ideas....no way can it be Tom Riddle...he's the one who tells us at the end of 2 that he is Lord Voldemort... Colin Creevey popped into my head....he showed up during COS...and since the title of book 6 seems to be an attachement to the second book, maybe Colin has somethign to do with it. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:49:07 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:49:07 -0000 Subject: Voldy!James? (Re: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103345 >>> Kneasy wrote: > There's been much discussion going back to I don't know when over > the order of the re-appearances from Voldy's wand. One frequently > asked question that has never been satisfactorily answered is: > "Where's the spell that destroyed Voldemort?" > Now it is confirmed that James was the last to be killed and there is > still no obvious answer to that question. Unless of course..... > > Do you see where I'm going? > > If James died last and that was also the spell that rebounded onto the > caster to form Vapour!Mort from a Voldy who strangely didn't seem to > leave a body behind (implied by Sirius) then Occams Razor leads one to > the conclusion that Voldy!James is a definite possibility. > Possession, perhaps? > > I've often idly wondered why Voldy's name doesn't crop up > whenever Harry has his moments of memory recall - it's "He's > coming!" Lupin seems surprised when Harry says he hears James's > voice calling out the warning. Well, he would, wouldn't he, if he > knows something different. > > Others may argue that the 'Third Party' used Voldy's wand to kill James, > but then there's still that missing spell, the one that formed Vapour!Mort. > Where is it? Something that traumatic should be capable of recall. > Why would somebody else use Voldy's wand anyway? Don't they have > one of their own? I can only recall one character that doesn't have a > properly functional wand - surely not, no - Hagrid? No, no. <<< Bren now: First *bow* to the greatest Conspiracy Theorist I've ever... "read". But I'm afraid you have lost me. What exactly do you mean by "Voldy! James"? Did you mean "Vapor!James"? My head is Siriusly hurting with all the "James first then Lily" and then "Lily first then James" and THEN the new title, etc etc. Summon De-Confusion Squad, please!! Bren From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:51:06 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:51:06 -0000 Subject: Reason for Neville as the HBP, and side notes about Lupin, Tom, and Mark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103346 > As for Tom Riddle as the Half > Blood Prince--it's certainly > possible, but I will be even > more disappointed with that > than with the prophecy at the > end of OoTP (which I spent > hundreds of pages biting my > nails to find out and then > it was just that Harry has > to be the one to defeat Voldy? > I could have told you that > without ever having read the > books and having only a vague > idea of the plot of the series. > The protagonist is always the > one responsible for vanquishing > the antagonist). Ahh, but I do believe the prophecy holds many more clues than that. JKR wouldn't have said that she worded it very carefully if it didn't. > Also--hasn't it already been > pointed out on here that Mark > spells his last name differently > from Lily? One uses an "a" and > one uses an "e." Actually, that hasn't been pointed out, because it's incorrect. OP Chapter 1, 'Dudley Demented': "So who've you been beating up tonight?" Harry asked, his grin fading. "Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago --" "He was asking for it," snarled Dudley. OP Chapter 28, 'Snape's Worst Memory': She turned on her heel and hurried away. "Evans!" James shouted after her. "Hey, EVANS!" Just one of the many quotes I posted in 103331. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:50:39 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:50:39 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > >> Adi: > >> Well, I looked at the door > >> too and there were some things > >> that caught my eye. There is > >> this writing in the mirror, > >> saying 'peeves woz ere!' and > >> there is a half-crescent moon > >> visible through the window. snip> > > gregory_lynn: > > Presumably it's just "here" > > in dialect, but if it isn't "ere" > > means before. > > > > Which proves conclusively that > > Dumbledore is Peeves. > > Debra: > Whoa. What? Not gonne even try to wrap my mind around that one. Just > wanted to say that in conjunction with the spelling of 'was' > as 'woz', and the establishment of the character of Peeves as simply > a jokester, snip If I am not mistaken, Peeves has a cockney accent, so Peeves woz ere is how someone with a cockney accent would say "was here" As far as it meaning anything special, I doubt it as he shows up at all the rooms you can access at JKR's site. You have to wait a bit but he come cackling through, stealing ribbons, knocking things over and extinguishing candles. Fran From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:51:42 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:51:42 -0000 Subject: book 6 release rumors or truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > With all the rumors and hoaxes and new information on JKR's site has anyone > heard anything about the release date for book 6? > > Gina A. Miller > > > Gina, As far as I've heard...no release date has been set...she's still writing. HermioneNYC From Cheer1556 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 15:35:30 2004 From: Cheer1556 at aol.com (mlh5016) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:35:30 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103349 "gregory_lynn" wrote: > Presumably it's just "here" in dialect, but if it isn't "ere" > means before. > > Which proves conclusively that Dumbledore is Peeves. Dumbledore is Peeves? I haven't heard this one before, lol. "mlh5016" From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:42:33 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:42:33 -0000 Subject: Reason for Neville as the HBP, and side notes about Lupin, Tom, and Mark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103350 I wrote: > Also--hasn't it already been pointed out on here that Mark spells his > last name differently from Lily? One uses an "a" and one uses an "e." > Harry has *no* other living relatives, people. Accept it. Actually, I'm not sure about the spellings, now that I think about it. But I still don't buy that they are related in any case, so it doesn't make much difference. a From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 15:54:04 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:54:04 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103351 Kneasy: > > BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer one > > of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a part to > > play in the story? > SSSusan: > Or maybe she took him out because he's DEAD?? ;-) Jen: Hey Susan! What am I missing here? JKR took Sirius off some list of favorites on her website? > Kneasy: > > Time to sharpen my stiletto - maybe a bit more character > > assassination might be in order. Never did like him. So - draft > > another non-partisan, totally unbiased dissection of the life and > > times of Mr Black? > > Why not? Jen: Yeah, that should stir the Sirius defenders out of their lethargy. After all, there's been a little too much about Snape recently and Sirius deserves equal time on the chopping block, eh? From lahela2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:43:14 2004 From: lahela2000 at yahoo.com (Rachel) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:43:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore? Half-Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103352 Does anyone have a theory on Dumbledore? He seems royal to me! Also, can anyone explain this Peeves=Dumbledore connection? I like it! Would explain why Peeves is still there, other than "Dumbledore" being mischievous. "Rachel" From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:54:30 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:54:30 -0000 Subject: Reason for Neville as the HBP, and side notes about Lupin, Tom, and Mark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aboutthe1910s" wrote: > I wrote: > > Also--hasn't it already been pointed out on here that Mark spells his > > last name differently from Lily? One uses an "a" and one uses an "e." > > Harry has *no* other living relatives, people. Accept it. > > Actually, I'm not sure about the spellings, now that I think about it. > But I still don't buy that they are related in any case, so it doesn't > make much difference. > > a HermioneNYC: Again....Why do they have to be releated???? Why is that such an important factor? From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 15:56:31 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:56:31 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103354 Snow previously: I had wrote something a bit similar to this some time back but my ideas were relating more with the very first "classroom prophecy" than her prophecies as a whole but I did hit on a few of the questions that you were curious about or at best my interpretation from them as presented through canon. The post was #96426. Geoff responded: Thanks, I'd missed that post. However, I am still intrigued about the "red-haired man". I wouldn't have described Ron as a man at that point in time and, secondly, if she was making a prediction about the Yule Ball, this was well over a year ahead and why didn't she make the comment to Padma when she was in a Divination lesson? Is there something still to be revealed? It's an interesting thought that, if she is a hopeless Seer (apart from a couple of major prophecies), she still manages to score 50% or so. Snow again: I agree with you that Trelawney hasn't been spot-on most of the time, which could be due to the fact that she dwells on worse case scenarios. This most likely prevents her from correctly interpreting what she sees. I think she does "see" but she misinterprets what she sees. Trelawney's predictions no matter how ludicrous they may sound appear to have some validity to them. I just think its up to "us" to interpret them not her. The following is my own interpretation of one of Trelawney's predictions: My interpretation of Trelawney's prediction that Harry was born in midwinter (GOF pg. 201) along with the comment from Harry were he states that he has two Neptunes and Ron makes a joke about it, was that Trelawney was actually seeing the Voldemort side of Harry that was transferred to him when Voldemort attempted to kill him. The two Neptunes would represent the fact that Harry and Voldemort are like twins in a sense (or in essence?) and Trelawney was actually seeing that Voldemort was born midwinter. (Which by the way to the best that I can figure would be February 9th. Also Harry is born almost midsummer, which would be the ying and yang again.) I think that Trelawney did "see" it just wasn't Harry that she was seeing. So again Trelawney's prediction may appear to be false when in fact in may be true if Voldemort was born in midwinter. I personally take it as a clue that Voldemort was born in midwinter, which would mean that it was he that was born under Saturn. There have been lots, and lots of Saturn referencing especially with the centaurs. ;) From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:43:46 2004 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:43:46 +0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103355 > Alina: > I just wanted to point out that half-wizard half-muggle children > (Seamus is one, btw, so's Dean) aren't the only half-bloods in the > books. Hagrid's a half-blood too. Betsy: I've been thinking about who might be the HBP and perhaps, as many have said, it could be Tom Riddle before he transform into LV. But, for the Prince part, I guess it was self-proclaimed. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to feel special, him not being a pure blood? Besides, LV had a reign of darkness, didn't he? From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Jun 29 15:59:49 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:59:49 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103356 Cindy jenkins wrote: > > I posted this earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. The web > page says "LILY first, then James". (Emphasis mine.) The original > poster simply misquoted it, I think. Please, go see for yourself! Eloise: This has already been posted by others but for the record the original version of this messgae on JKR's website did indeed say *James* first and it was changed sometime this morning UK time to say *Lily* first. I promise you that I saw both versions there. It wasn't a misquote. Bren now: > > But it doesn't make sense. The rest of reply stays the same as > though her original message was meant to say "James first, then > Lily". If Lily was indeed supposed to come out first, then there is > no need to talk about how her US editor was wrong, no? The rest of > post just doesn't make sense with "Lily first, then James" beginning. > > Or what about "That's how it appears in my original manuscript" > statement? Her original edition has James first coming out then > Lily, I have the British-Canadian version which is supposed to > remain unchanged, I think. Eloise: Yes, it does make sense. The crucial word here is *manuscript*. She had *Lily* in her unpublished *manuscript* and from there it was changed into *James* which was got into the published book. What I find interesting is that this supposed error picked up by her US editor was then also altered in the UK edition. I have long noted that there seems to have been a lack of co-ordination between the UK and US editing processes, although less so as the series has progressed. ~Eloise From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 16:02:08 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:02:08 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103357 > Kneasy wrote: > > Unless my logic is faulty (getting old, getting old) the spell > > that appears directly after Bertha should be the final one he > > cast at GH, the one that rebounded. Unless of course, someone > > else used his wand, which would be a bit of a swizz IMO. For the > > sequence to end before we get to that spell would require Voldy > > to be destroyed before tackling Lily and James. Or it wasn't the > > rebound from Harry that nailed him, but another spell entirely. Inkling: > Your logic agrees with mine -- James and Lily were killed before > the attempt on Harry, Bertha Jorkins (long) after the attempt on > Harry, therefore the Curse That Failed, the cornerstone of the > plot, would have shown up in between these two shadows at > the end of GF-- except nothing did! Interesting! Jen: I've always believed it didn't show up *because* it was the Curse that Failed. The curse was not completed as intended, and didn't end up (technically) killing someone. We know so much about how intentions in the WW count as much as the actual spell, and I think this is a prime example. I'm always willing to be surprised, though! Jen Reese From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:03:56 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:03:56 -0000 Subject: What shows up in Priori Incantatem? (Was Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103358 >>> Debra wrote: Some of these, probably the Cruciatus Curses, can be attributed to the screams of pain the wand issued between some of the echoes. But what happened to the others? <<< Brenda now: Hehe, I was just thinking about the same thing. Not only Cruciatus (on Harry, Avery, Wormtail...) and Imperius (Crouch Sr), all the small harmless spells he must've used to just live like a wizard. Surely, he's done *some* magic before PI jumps to 13 years ago. Where are the rest? My conclusion was that the Priori Incantatum showed people Voldemort has killed because the spell he cast before PI connection was "Avada Kedabra". Thus when the green light shooting out of VM's wand went back to the wand's tip, it made the prior AK curse victims to come out. That's my guess anyways. If not, Harry would've had to wait for like 3 hours before his parents came out... So I guess this means if PI connection went to Harry instead, we would see people he had Disarmed? It would be funny if Snape was indeed present at the Rebirth Ceremony and see his own body/ghost coming out of Harry's wand or something. Bren From allisonotto at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:06:56 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:06:56 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." > > But it doesn't make sense. The rest of reply stays the same as > though her original message was meant to say "James first, then > Lily". If Lily was indeed supposed to come out first, then there is > no need to talk about how her US editor was wrong, no? Just to clear up: Although I myself have a later version, apparently in the first US printing the order was wrong: it had James coming out first and saying "your mother is coming." By the time I bought my US edition, it had been corrected to Lily coming out first and saying "your father is coming." So JKR is referring to the error in the first US edition, which she has since said was a mistake (which is why she had it fixed for later printings). I think this is somewhere in the FAQ. -Allison From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jun 29 16:10:55 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:10:55 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103360 > > gregory_lynn wrote: > > Presumably it's just "here" > > in dialect, but if it isn't "ere" > > means before. > > > > Which proves conclusively that > > Dumbledore is Peeves. First, the same message appeared on the mirror last month, before the door could be opened, so it has nothing to do with what's inside. Just Peeves being Peeves. And second, gregory_lynn, sorry but you're wrong. Dumbledore is *not* Peeves. Dumbledore is obviously the half-house-elf half-giant father of Salazar Slytherin himself, who time-turned to the past to escape his mixed-blood fate, only to be thwarted by Godric Gryffindor, who is obviously the illegitimate son of time-turned Ron and a veela. Similarly, Peeves is obviously the time-turned ghost of Filch's son, getting back at his dear old dad for all those years of incessant nagging to clean up his room. --boyd off my meds again From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:11:15 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:11:15 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103361 > Wanda: > I think that Book 6 will involved > time travel, as so many others have > opined, and that Harry will travel > back in time to meet Tom Riddle, > in order to stop him before he > starts his journey to become Voldemort. > Maybe he'll try to kill him, maybe > he'll just try to interfere with him, > or maybe he'll try to reform him; but > whatever happens, Harry is going to > try to stop Tom from becoming > Voldemort. Debra: It was bothering me for a long time why I couldn't come up with a counter-argument for this, but a friend of mine just jogged my memory. Let's think this through for a second. How much would change if Harry went back in time to kill and/or stop VDM? Because, as Hermione said, you have to be very careful in time travel. The following are possible "pros" to the time-travel bit: 1. Harry would no longer bear the burden of fame and the title of "the boy who lived". 2. His parents and Sirius would still be alive. 3. Sirius would be a free man The following are possible "cons": 1. Hermione wouldn't be his friend. They became friends after the troll incident, which would never have happened if Quirrel hadn't been trying to buy time so he could take a look at the obstacles guarding the Stone. Even though the "pros" outweigh the "cons" that I can think of right now, I don't think JKR would have picked the troll incident as the thing that brought them together if she had planned all along for it to be negated later in the series. She fought for that scene because she needed something big to bring them together, not because she needed something reversible. Debra From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 16:12:41 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:12:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another theory about the half blood prince (Aragog) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005401c45df3$e869a410$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103362 Debra For one, Tom Riddle is also a main character in CoS. For two, it doesn't necessarily have to be a main character. She said that by the time she finished, that title didn't seem to fit anymore. This could be that because of editing, a character was diminished... Just a thought. Debra Sherry What about Colin Creevey? He's first introduced in COS as well. Although I admit, I have trouble trying to fit him into the role of prince. But when trying to think of characters introduced in that book, I came up with Dobby Mr. Weasley Lockhart Colin Justin Aragog Tom Riddle Any others? Sherry G ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:16:11 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:16:11 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103363 Potioncat wrote: And that is the same wordplay that Doby used when he said it was not "he who must not be named" because it was OK to name Tom Riddle. So I agree with Wanda's post as a strong possibility. vmonte responds: Yes, Doby doesn't even consider that Voldemort and Tom Riddle are the same person. And I don't think that the half-blood prince will be someone we haven't met yet. There is something that has been bothering me for a while though. Why does Harry remember Tom Riddle as being a childhood friend that was long forgotten? Memory charm anyone? Or is Tom Riddle trapped inside Harry's head? Did Lily's magic split Voldemort in half leaving the undead entity known as vapormort, while vaporRiddle sought refuge in the only body that was alive, baby Harry? If DD suspected (or knowing him, already knew) that Tom was now living in Harry, he may have placed Harry at the Dursley's not only to protect Harry, but to also keep Tom away from the magical community. Was Tom Harry's friend? What does DD's comment "in essence divided" mean? If Ron starts to have separate memories because of the brain attack, will Harry start to realize that he also has forgotten but separate memories? Why does Harry look at the diary in Cos and have the feeling that he wants to finish the story that was started? Doesn't this sound like something someone would say if they were given another chance to rewrite their life? I've thought this way myself. "If I had only done it this way..." If TR is inside Harry my guess would be that he is not like the Tom Riddle of the past, future, or present... vivian From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:15:43 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:15:43 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103364 >>> Eloise wrote: > > Yes, it does make sense. The crucial word here is *manuscript*. > She had *Lily* in her unpublished *manuscript* and from there it was > changed into *James* which was got into the published book. > > What I find interesting is that this supposed error picked up by her > US editor was then also altered in the UK edition. I have long noted > that there seems to have been a lack of co-ordination between the UK > and US editing processes, although less so as the series has > progressed. <<< Bren now: Perhaps I should have been more clear. It doesn't make sense to me that JKR first posted a message in FAQ section, "James first, then Lily", with the entire post supporting WHY James was supposed to come out first but there was an error in some of editions. And then change it to "Lily first, then James", but the rest of message stays the same, still supporting the "J then L" statement rather than "L then J". I find it quite funny that she would post this message NOW, 4 years after GoF was released, when we all assumed that it was a mistake on JKR's writing. I personally hope it is "James first, then Lily". It adds so much more juicy stuff to already complex plot. I know VM said that he killed James first in PS/SS (according to my British edition), but then we know how good old Voldy is... well not all there in his head. I'm willing to take JKR's words on it rather than VM's. I think JKR might be confused herself, after all, she has admitted that she's not very good at math. Bren From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 16:20:40 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:20:40 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103365 Kneasy: > > > BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer one of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a part to play in the story? < < < SSSusan: > > Or maybe she took him out because he's DEAD?? ;-) Jen: Hey Susan! What am I missing here? JKR took Sirius off some > list of favorites on her website? SSSusan: Howdy, Jen. I think Kneasy is just referring to the fact that on some list of favorite characters, JKR had included Sirius. The list at her website does NOT include him. KNEASY--was it this very same list which originally included Sirius, or was it in some interview somewhere where she mentioned him?? Kneasy: > > > Time to sharpen my stiletto - maybe a bit more character assassination might be in order. Never did like him. So - draft another non-partisan, totally unbiased dissection of the life and times of Mr Black? Why not? Jen: Yeah, that should stir the Sirius defenders out of their > lethargy. After all, there's been a little too much about Snape > recently and Sirius deserves equal time on the chopping block, eh? SSSusan: I couldn't agree more! As much as I love the character of Snape [well, you know what I mean--like JKR loves to write him but doesn't love HIM...], I'm sick of talking about his teaching methods! Bring on Sirius or Lee Jordon or McGonagall or Aberforth or SOMEBODY! Siriusly Snapey Susan From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:20:50 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:20:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > snip. > > > Wouldn't it be fun if Lupin turned out to be not only NOT ESE!, but also some sort of key figure? > Lupin turning to be royalty and being on the center stage in book 6 is something which I would love to happen. I am hoping that it is not going to be Tom Riddle or a new character. Lupin all the way. :o) Just two more points on why Lupin would make a great HBP: 1. Remus (the Ancient Roman one, not ours) was not only a prince, but a prince who was believed to be just a humble farmer until his true lineage is revealed. Sounds like our humble professor, no? 2. The fabulousness of the Malfoys learning of Lupin's royal status (yes, Lupin, whose tattered robes Draco has so often sneered at. Could JKR be setting us up for something?). What fun! Well, sure, he's still a half-blood...but, royalty? That must count for something in Lucius' eyes. Can't wait! :: Entropy :: From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:23:03 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:23:03 -0000 Subject: Time Traveling Tom Riddle (Was Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103367 I wrote: Let's think this through for a second. How much would change if Harry went back in time to kill and/or stop VDM? Because, as Hermione said, you have to be very careful in time travel. I went on to list a few of the changes as "pros" and "cons". I just realized that that was completely unnecessary. If this time travel thing were to happen, it would be to change something *in the past*. Which means that the present we are seeing would have already been affected. Take a look back at that section of PA. The "present" trio are hearing the same things as the "future" trio. Even with them not having travelled back in time yet, the present was different. Think about it. Debra From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:36:24 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:36:24 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Kneasy: > BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer > one of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a >part >to play in the story? < < < SSSusan: > I'm sick of talking about his teaching methods! Bring > on Sirius or Lee Jordon or McGonagall or Aberforth or SOMEBODY! "K": Yes. Let's forget those teaching methods of Snape that will work out in the end and move to some theories. You know, something interesting like *Is Sirius Really A Good Guy*? Sirius' name was never cleared, BTW. I'm not one of those Snape fans who hate Sirius. For some unknown reason I've always liked him though he can be such a jerk at times. "K" From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:41:00 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:41:00 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > >>> Steve wrote: > > > > The UK edition, which is the first publication, has James > > coming out first. > > > > On her website, JKR said three times ... James comes out before > > Lily. She flat out says that the ... change to the US edition was > > a mistake. > > > > ... the most recent UK versions have been change back to > > the original form. (...or, so I've been told.) <<< > > > Bren now: > > I agree with Steve. US edition is much different, heck, it has even > different title in the first book. I'm just glad I got my Canadian- > British edition ;P > Asian_lovr2: I would much prefer to read the UK/Canada editions but the font used and the font point size make the books very difficult for me to read. Not impossible, but difficult. For the most recent book, I ordered from Canada, and given the Font problems, and the fact that, with each new book, there are fewer and fewer changes, I've pretty much decided to stick with the easier to read US editions. Maybe I'll get a boxed set from the UK when the series is finished. > Bren continues: > > What I don't understand is WHY US editor made that suggestion, and > on top of that, WHY JKR went along with it. ...edited... > Asian_lovr2: There are several long thread going on right now on this subject, so you may have missed this little tid-bit. In SS/PS, when Harry confronts Voldemort in the last chamber, Voldemort says (paraphrased) that he killed James first and followed up by saying that Harry's mother didn't have to die. First, Lord-V is not a very reliable source of information. The hard cold facts usually come from either Dumbledore's or Hermione's mouth. Lord-V is very self-serving, and as evil overlord are prone to do, he is not above ammending the truth to suit the moment. In her explaination, which has been quoted in a couple of other threads here, JKR explains that fatigue and a rush to publication were influencing factors. We must understand, that at that time, we and the publishers had four books, one of which hadn't actually been published yet. JKR on the other hand has years and years of work, and volumes and volumes of data (character histories, outlines for the full series, notes, backstory, after-story), that's a lot of information to keep track of. Persumably, for the explanation, in the heat of the moment, the US publisher may have said 'the first book says James dies first'. Then under under pressure to give an immediate answer, she probably thought 'that makes sense' and approved the change. She probably never gave it another thought until thousands of obsessed fans started questioning her on the point. Then she was stuck for a graceful way to undo it. > Bren continues: > > ... Anyways, I'm willing to count on JKR's written words on her own > website than her spoken words in interviews. > > Bren Asian_lovr2: Amen to that. I think there is a tremendous margin for error in spontaneous interviews. So, we must certainly temper anything she says with some common sense. As I like to say, interviews aren't 'canon' they are 'canonish'. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Tue Jun 29 16:42:00 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:42:00 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103370 Allison wrote: > Just to clear up: Although I myself have a later version, > apparently in the first US printing the order was wrong: it > had James coming out first and saying "your mother is coming." > By the time I bought my US edition, it had been corrected to > Lily coming out first and saying "your father is coming." So > JKR is referring to the error in the first US edition, which > she has since said was a mistake (which is why she had it > fixed for later printings). Yes, this is right; I'd recalled that we had some scans of the original and the corrected versions here in the files, and after a little hunting located them. (They were in a folder called "Publications" which was inside the "Graphics" folder, so not terribly obvious.) I've moved them to the main Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ They're the two files at the very bottom; one is a .gif and the other a .jpg: priori-original.gif (apparently from the Bloomsbury first edition) priori-s.jpg (corrected version, from the ninth edition, not sure which publication) If anyone has trouble accessing them, let me know -- kelleythompson@ gbronline.com, or contact us at the owner address -- HPforGrownups- owner@ yahoogroups.com. --Kelley From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 16:44:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:44:11 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > Kneasy: > > > BTW - did you notice (on her website) that Sirius is no longer > > one of her favourites? Plus hints that his actions still have a > >part > >to play in the story? < < < > >Potioncat: How do you get to that list? I miss half the stuff on that site even when I go to the text only part. Do you suppose the list has to do with how she feels about characters that she's writing now in book 6? From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:52:34 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:52:34 -0000 Subject: Concentrating on the "Prince" part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > Prince really has two meanings. First, there is the title of > nobility and it's loose applications. One could consider Draco > a "prince" of the wizarding world in the sense that he is the son of > one of the most prominent families. > > But secondly, there is the notion of prince not as the inheritor of a > prominent/royal family, but as one who is notable or prominent by his > deeds. The merchant prince definition if you will. > > I find it intriguing that the novels have strong themes that would > apply in each case. Tom Riddle makes much of the fact that he is > descended from a great wizard, Harry obsessed over his lineage, as > does Neville (in a very different way). But then, we are repeatedly > told that it is our choices, our deeds that make us what we are. > > I suspect that there may well be two characters in the book who could > be identified as the prince of the half bloods and that it won't be > clear which is the intended until the end. One character for each > definition. It would be an excellent way to delve into the > difference and the importance of deeds over inherited title. > > I see one character of Lockhartian proportions. Perhaps a very > wealthy, prominent, respected halfblood family (Weasleys but with > money) has a son who is well, Lockhart-like, all bluster and fluff. > > The other character comes from a more hardworking family that isn't > well known, like the Weasleys but without the name recognition. He > doesn't bluster, he just goes out and gets it done. > > Pre speculation of course, but it would seem to fit the themes. Gregory_lynn: You are brilliant! Just wanted to say that. Now, I can go back to racking my brain on the characters (that we probably already know) to see how will fit these definitions. Stephanie From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:52:52 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:52:52 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in Harry? (Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103373 I'm dying to find out about this mysterious connection between Tom Riddle and Harry. First time around GoF, in "Riddle House" chapter, I thought the "pale, dark-hair stranger" boy was Harry. Lol. > Vivian wrote: > > There is something that has been bothering me for a while though. Why > does Harry remember Tom Riddle as being a childhood friend that was > long forgotten? Memory charm anyone? Or is Tom Riddle trapped > inside Harry's head? Did Lily's magic split Voldemort in half > leaving the undead entity known as vapormort, while vaporRiddle > sought refuge in the only body that was alive, baby Harry? <<< Bren: I can think of another simple reason as to why Harry remembered TR as his childhood friend. It could be the effect of the magical diary itself. Harry had this familiar feeling after he made the physical contact with the diary, right? TR had to have someone open the diary for him and befriended it so that he could manipulate, I think it's very possible that diary was meant to emit the elusive mysterious "old-friend" feeling and thus attract whoever to pour their soul out. Look what Ginny did, after all. Of course this doesn't fit very well with the rest of theory, lol. Just a wild thought. > If DD suspected (or knowing him, already knew) that Tom was now > living in Harry, he may have placed Harry at the Dursley's not only > to protect Harry, but to also keep Tom away from the magical > community. That good-old Smarty. I wonder if DD is the Omniscient on in WW. Like the Wizadring Divine force, I mean. More maybe a Divine Prophet. > Was Tom Harry's friend? What does DD's comment "in essence divided" > mean? Got me. > Why does Harry look at the diary in Cos and have the feeling that he > wants to finish the story that was started? Doesn't this sound like > something someone would say if they were given another chance to > rewrite their life? I've thought this way myself. "If I had only > done it this way..." Hmm, although I don't remember reading that in CoS (mind you, I only read it once... Shame, I know)... does this remind you of Stephen King's "Secret Window", starring Johnny Depp (smitten, heehee). In that story, the mysterious stalker (who insists that the story author, Johnny Depp, changes the ending) turns out to be the author's traumatized alter ego. Going along with this, perhaps this could be used as canon to support how Tom Riddle is somehow trapped in Harry. Bren From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:54:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:54:28 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103374 snip. > >Potioncat: > How do you get to that list? I miss half the stuff on that site > even when I go to the text only part. > > Do you suppose the list has to do with how she feels about > characters that she's writing now in book 6? Alla: Ooo, the possibility to defend Sirius. :o) Bring it on. By the way, I could be very wrong, but I've seen this list of favourites long time ago before it was on the website. Wasn't she asked in some interview about the characters she loves the most? I think she gave exactly the same answer in that particular interview. I don't think it was ever changed. She did say that she liked Sirius in the diferent interviews though (I think so at least :o)) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:56:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:56:45 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103375 "koinonia02" wrote: > Yes. Let's forget those teaching methods of Snape that will work out > in the end and move to some theories. snip. Alla: Work out in the end? I really want to say "dream on" :o), but hey, they could work out in the end for something. Sure, let's discuss whether Sirius is really a good guy. What do you mean? Of course, he is. :) From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:04:09 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:04:09 -0000 Subject: Concentrating on the "Prince" part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" > wrote: > > Prince really has two meanings. First, there is the title of > > nobility and it's loose applications. One could consider Draco > > a "prince" of the wizarding world in the sense that he is the son > of > > one of the most prominent families. > > > > But secondly, there is the notion of prince not as the inheritor > of a > > prominent/royal family, but as one who is notable or prominent by > his > > deeds. The merchant prince definition if you will. > > > > I find it intriguing that the novels have strong themes that would > > apply in each case. Tom Riddle makes much of the fact that he is > > descended from a great wizard, Harry obsessed over his lineage, as > > does Neville (in a very different way). But then, we are > repeatedly > > told that it is our choices, our deeds that make us what we are. > > > > I suspect that there may well be two characters in the book who > could > > be identified as the prince of the half bloods and that it won't > be > > clear which is the intended until the end. One character for each > > definition. It would be an excellent way to delve into the > > difference and the importance of deeds over inherited title. > > > > I see one character of Lockhartian proportions. Perhaps a very > > wealthy, prominent, respected halfblood family (Weasleys but with > > money) has a son who is well, Lockhart-like, all bluster and fluff. > > > > The other character comes from a more hardworking family that > isn't > > well known, like the Weasleys but without the name recognition. > He > > doesn't bluster, he just goes out and gets it done. > > > > Pre speculation of course, but it would seem to fit the themes. > > Gregory_lynn: > You are brilliant! Just wanted to say that. Now, I can go back to > racking my brain on the characters (that we probably already know) > to see how will fit these definitions. > Stephanie Steph again: I need to add that when looking up the definition for prince I noticed this: A title belonging to persons of high rank, differing in different countries. In England it belongs to dukes, marquises, and earls, but is given to members of the royal family only. In Italy a prince is inferior to a duke as a member of a particular order of nobility; in Spain he is always one of the royal family. and The chief of any body of men; one at the head of a class or profession; one who is pre["e]minent; as, a merchant prince; a prince of players. ``The prince of learning.'' --Peacham. Hope that helps. Steph From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 17:07:33 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:07:33 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103377 > Alla: > > Ooo, the possibility to defend Sirius. :o) Bring it on. Bren now: Let me join you, Alla. It is downright preposterous and outrageous that anyone will question Sirius' loyalty. You'd think the guy will crack up after 12 years in Azkaban. Come on, Sirius is/was about the only real good thing Harry has/had (other than Hermione and Ron). Leave him alone. Bren, who will use her ancient magic on Sirius so that all the blames/criticism will bounce off of him!! From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 16:52:05 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:52:05 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103378 I read this theory on here right after OoTP came out, and thought it quite likely then and still do--the argument was based around the fact that it's hardly likely that Harry got an Outstanding on his Potions OWL and Snape only takes O's, and for Harry to proceed on his path to becoming an Auror, his career of choice at this point, he has to continue taking Potions. So Dumbledore will finally allow snape Snape to take over DADA, and a new professor will teach Potions--one who accepts students with less than an O. Anyway, I was just wondering what the current consensus is on this theory... I could search through the archives and try to see what people's sentiments were toward it the last time it was brought up, but this is so much easier. a From llarson at Princeton.EDU Tue Jun 29 17:00:19 2004 From: llarson at Princeton.EDU (Laurie Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:00:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Questions regarding Book 6 In-Reply-To: <0ED49A24-C9D6-11D8-800D-000A95AF8034@princeton.edu> References: <0ED49A24-C9D6-11D8-800D-000A95AF8034@princeton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103379 Bren: >> This reminds me of other posts about the new book. And I often found >> myself wondering, where did that come from? Those are namely... >> >> (1) A graveyard at Hogwarts? (Oy? Where did you get that?) >> (2) Students Switching Houses in Year 6 (Where did you get THAT?) And I wrote: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2004_05_09.html Even more detail on this is at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_3758000/3758101.stm Laurie From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 17:23:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:23:24 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103380 wrote: > I read this theory on here right after OoTP came out, and thought it > quite likely then and still do--the argument was based around the fact > that it's hardly likely that Harry got an Outstanding on his Potions > OWL and Snape only takes O's, and for Harry to proceed on his path to > becoming an Auror, his career of choice at this point, he has to > continue taking Potions. So Dumbledore will finally allow snape Snape > to take over DADA, and a new professor will teach Potions--one who > accepts students with less than an O. Potioncat: JKR has set some real tension over this issue or should I say these issues...Harry's Potion OWLs and Snape as DADA (as apposed to DaDa as the twins call him....sorry) In spite of the conversation with Umbride I'm not convinced he wants DADA. But yes, this would be an interesting way of dealing with the situation and it would be interesing seeing the two of them in this situation. Harry is good at DADA and interested in it and needs it. I think it would be interesting to see Molly as a teacher. (Potions?) She did mention once a love potion she brewed while at Hogwarts. Aren't they against the rules? Where did she set up her cauldron, do you think? On the other hand, the way she went to work on those beasties at Grimmauld Place, maybe she'll be the new DADA teacher. Potioncat From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 17:24:34 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:24:34 -0000 Subject: Concentrating on the "Prince" part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > Prince really has two meanings. First, there is the title of > nobility and it's loose applications. One could consider Draco > a "prince" of the wizarding world in the sense that he is the son of > one of the most prominent families. > I think Dumbledore is using the word in that sense when he's explaining everything to Harry at the end of OotP: "You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances." Wanda From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 17:27:13 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:27:13 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: > Sure, let's discuss whether Sirius is really a good guy. What do >you mean? Of course, he is. :) "K": I just don't think that question has been settled yet. Here's an old JKR interview: Barnes&Noble.com September 8, 1999 Chat Transcript Hello! Will Sirius ever be proven innocent? Or have you not decided yet? Thank you very much!! JKR: I have decided, but if I answer it gives away something quite important in the plot, so I'd rather not...however, Sirius will be back in future books. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999- barnesnoble-staff.htm *It gives away something quite important in the plot* Did we really learn anything in OoP that was quite important? "K" From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 17:34:45 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:34:45 -0000 Subject: Tom as Half Blood Prince. Or Lee? =) In-Reply-To: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15C7EB93@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103383 >>> Tim Regan wrote: > This has left me thinking that it is Tom Riddle who is the half blood > prince. That's why he chooses an aristocratic nom de plume for his post > transformation self. Given the back-story we've seen about his father , > I think we can say that Mr Riddle was not from aristocratic lineage, but > he seems the type of man who would have been enamoured by any woman who > was. So perhaps Mrs Riddle was a royal. And she was a witch. So Tom > Riddle is the half blood prince, and we'll be seeing him again in book > six. Perhaps Dumbledore's words to Lucius towards the end of CoS: "I > would advise you, Lucius, not to go giving out any more of Lord > Voldemort's old school things. If any more of them find their way into > innocent hands, I think Arthur Weasley, for one, will make sure they are > traced back to you" were more a prophesy than a threat. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] <<< Bren now: I agree with you and a few others (can't remember the names, sorry, there are just so many posts on this topic) that Tom Riddle is indeed the "Half Blood Prince". After all, Harry & co had hard time speculating who the "Heir of Slytherin" was and it was Tom Riddle. And "Half Blood Prince" sounds like an OK alternative to Heir of Slytherin. Not good, but OK (I'm still having hard time accepting the fact that JKR even thought about designating *anyone* in the book "Prince". Isn't that the most stereotypical feature of fairytail stories?) But if TR is indeed HBP, I don't think it was because Mrs Riddle was a royal. Do you think Tom is related to Salazar Slytherin by blood? Being the "last remaining descendent (or ancestor, whichever)" or "Heir of Slytherin", I somehow get the feeling that this isn't the blood/lineage connection. I think there is a DIRECT relationship between Salazar and Tom, not the blood that has been passed down for the past 1000 yers. Or how about Lee Jordan? I think he "looks" like Prince... the musician that is, lol. (Just trying to light things up here ;P) Is he pure-blood or Muggle-born? Bren From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:44:17 2004 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:44:17 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103384 aboutthe1910s: > ... it's hardly likely > that Harry got an Outstanding > on his Potions OWL and Snape > only takes O's, and for Harry > to proceed on his path to becoming > an Auror, his career of choice at > this point, he has to continue > taking Potions. So Dumbledore > will finally allow snape Snape to > take over DADA, and a new professor > will teach Potions--one who accepts > students with less than an O. I personally don't believe that Snape will be the new DADA teacher. If he hasn't been so far, Dumbledore must have his reasons. If anything, I think either Dumbledore will convince Snape to take on Harry anyway, or Snape will not be able to continue teaching potions because of something having to do with his position as the "spy". In addition, the pattern so far has been that the DADA teacher was a completely out-of-the-blue new character every year, and I don't think that streak will be broken until *maybe* book 7. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:44:25 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:44:25 -0000 Subject: Concentrating on the "Prince" part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103385 vmonte here: Or the "Prince" could be the brain that mind-melded with Ron. vivian From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 17:55:26 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:55:26 -0000 Subject: Time Traveling Tom Riddle (Was Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > I went on to list a few of the changes as "pros" and "cons". I just > realized that that was completely unnecessary. If this time travel > thing were to happen, it would be to change something *in the past*. > Which means that the present we are seeing would have already been > affected. Take a look back at that section of PA. The "present" trio > are hearing the same things as the "future" trio. Even with them not > having travelled back in time yet, the present was different. Think > about it. > These time travel stories can get very complicated, I agree. and it's hard to explain how things can be happening and not happening at the same time. But to make it brief: however logically you explain it, the characters *in the story* believe that they can change what happened in the past. That's why they used the Time- Turner in PoA, because they thought that if they *didn't*, Buckbeak would be killed and Sirius would be captured. Being outside a story, as a reader, we can see how the whole thing loops round and appears to be inevitable; from the inside, it's not clear at all. Partly because, as characters, they're never "in the past" at all. WE can see that they're in the past, but to them, they've just moved into another present. It's all happening right now to them, even if "now" has moved several hours backward. Anyway, I quite agree that what has happened in the past is not going to be changed. However, that is not what Harry will think. He'll see all the "pros" you listed, and figure that the "cons" are worth risking. I know quite well that time travel is a dangerous undertaking - in fact, so does pretty well everyone else. I don't propose it as because I think it's a GOOD idea - I think it's a TERRIBLE idea! Just the sort of stupid, reckless thing Harry Potter would try! He'll get all sorts of warnings about how dangerous it is, from Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, you name it. But when has he ever listened to good advice when heroism calls? Never! And now he doesn't even trust Dumbledore, so he's pretty much playing a lone hand here. I think Book 6 is going to show us his biggest mistake of all, because he's going to feel that he's alone and it's all up to him to act without any help at all - he's going to go back in time to try to fix things, and he'll end up making everthing much, much worse. Because I think that whatever he does (all with good intentions, of course) will in fact set in motion all the disasters that follow. It will turn out that if Harry had NOT gone back in time, there never would have been a Voldemort at all (who knows, maybe he'll inadvertently save Tom Riddle's life as a baby!). There are lots of possibilities, and I have no idea what particular tack JKR is going to take. But I'm pretty sure Harry is going to come out of Book 6 at his lowest ebb, feeling responsible for everything. Wanda From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:55:41 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:55:41 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103387 Potioncat: JKR has set some real tension over this issue or should I say these issues...Harry's Potion OWLs and Snape as DADA (as apposed to DaDa as the twins call him....sorry) In spite of the conversation with Umbride I'm not convinced he wants DADA. But yes, this would be an interesting way of dealing with the situation and it would be interesing seeing the two of them in this situation. Harry is good at DADA and interested in it and needs it. I think it would be interesting to see Molly as a teacher. (Potions?) She did mention once a love potion she brewed while at Hogwarts. Aren't they against the rules? Where did she set up her cauldron, do you think? On the other hand, the way she went to work on those beasties at Grimmauld Place, maybe she'll be the new DADA teacher. vmonte responds: Molly as potions teacher? I would have never thought of this. I know you are probably joking, but I would love to see a nurturing person as potions teacher for a change. If DD thought that Molly's life was in danger he might just put her at the school. She seems to set high standards for her children. Maybe she was like Hermione at school? And I can see Neville really doing well in potions with a different kind of teacher. Making Snape a DADA teacher would be interesting, but can DD get away with using Snape? He was a DE after all. Still, I would like to see what Snape's bogart would look like... vivian From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 29 17:59:19 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:59:19 -0500 Subject: jkr site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103388 Okay I found my way to the book six title, but is there anything else? What about the wind chimes or the bugs that are all over the place? Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:59:36 2004 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:59:36 -0000 Subject: HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103389 My guess (well actually my bf's but I think its a good one) is Hagrid. He is a half-blood and we don't know much about his giant side. Add to that according to the site, JKR almost used this in COS and Hagrid plays a pretty large role there... Serena From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:04:50 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:04:50 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103390 Debra wrote: I personally don't believe that Snape will be the new DADA teacher. If he hasn't been so far, Dumbledore must have his reasons. If anything, I think either Dumbledore will convince Snape to take on Harry anyway, or Snape will not be able to continue teaching potions because of something having to do with his position as the "spy". In addition, the pattern so far has been that the DADA teacher was a completely out-of-the-blue new character every year, and I don't think that streak will be broken until *maybe* book 7. vmonte responds: Yes, because Dumbledore will die. Snape may then become the DADA teacher. I just hope that Snape doesn't prove that DD was right to not make him the DADA teacher. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jun 29 18:06:02 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:06:02 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103391 > > Alla: > > Ooo, the possibility to defend Sirius. :o) Bring it on. > Bren now: > Let me join you, Alla. It is downright preposterous and outrageous > that anyone will question Sirius' loyalty. You'd think the guy will > crack up after 12 years in Azkaban. > Come on, Sirius is/was about the only real good thing Harry has/had > (other than Hermione and Ron). Leave him alone. Mandy here: I don't think anyone was or could questioning Sirius' loyalty. It more the fact that Siurus Black was an immature, petulant, selfish, arrogant, hypocritical, angry, sad and lonely boy who never really grew up that's often discussed by those of us who really don't like him. Of course, that is what makes Sirius such a fascinating character, along with Snape. It's their faults that make them so intriguing. Mandy, who though that seeing Gary Oldman play him on screen might have changed my mind but, fortunately, no. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:09:33 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:09:33 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103392 I've only got one question: Does the release of this title indicate that Book Six is nearing completion? Sylvia From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 18:13:23 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:13:23 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103393 >>> "K": > Barnes&Noble.com (September 8, 1999) > < http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999- barnesnoble-staff.htm > > > Chat Transcript > > Hello! Will Sirius ever be proven innocent? Or have you not decided > yet? Thank you very much!! > > JKR: I have decided, but if I answer it gives away something quite > important in the plot, so I'd rather not...however, Sirius will be > back in future books. <<< Bren now: OR, she could very well mean this: "Yes, I have decided that Sirius will not be proven innocent. Thus he must be in hiding, not being able to travel at his will. This will leave him feeling restless and hopeless, and it will eventually be one of the reasons Sirius ends up going to Department of Mysteries and ...." [Well the "quite important plot" here, sniffs] If Sirius was in fact proven innocent then I think it would've been easier for Harry to make contact with him. I don't think Umbridge would have tortured Harry to find whereabouts of an innocent citizen. Or would she, she's so foul, she could be the more girlish VM herself (refusing to call her "Female", haha) Brenda From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jun 29 18:20:09 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:20:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince References: Message-ID: <04c201c45e05$b7c7f980$c2e4f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 103394 I've only got one question: Does the release of this title indicate that Book Six is nearing completion? Sylvia *Kimberly's comment* According to TLC, she announced Book 5 title during a press release for Book 4 and it was 3 years later when OoTP was released. According to this, unfortunately the release of a title has little indication upon the release date. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 18:17:48 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:17:48 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > >>> "K": > > Barnes&Noble.com (September 8, 1999) > > < http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999- > barnesnoble-staff.htm > > > > > Chat Transcript > > > > Hello! Will Sirius ever be proven innocent? Or have you not > decided > > yet? Thank you very much!! > > > > JKR: I have decided, but if I answer it gives away something quite > > important in the plot, so I'd rather not...however, Sirius will be > > back in future books. <<< > > Bren now: > > OR, she could very well mean this: > > "Yes, I have decided that Sirius will not be proven innocent. Thus > he must be in hiding, not being able to travel at his will. This > will leave him feeling restless and hopeless, and it will eventually > be one of the reasons Sirius ends up going to Department of > Mysteries and ...." [Well the "quite important plot" here, sniffs] > > If Sirius was in fact proven innocent then I think it would've been > easier for Harry to make contact with him. I don't think Umbridge > would have tortured Harry to find whereabouts of an innocent > citizen. Or would she, she's so foul, she could be the more girlish > VM herself (refusing to call her "Female", haha) > > Brenda Me again: OOPS. Sorry, I meant "... feeling restless and HELPLESS", not "feeling restless and hopeless". Whoohooo! My first one-line post!! Bren From armadillof at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 17:56:28 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:56:28 -0000 Subject: my favourite HBP picks... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103396 Ok. Before I solicit my random musings...just some thoughts.... #1 PRINCE OF WHAT? #2 Blood line inheritance of royalty....or selected? #3 Do you think the character's parents are dead? #4 Anything to do with new governing/MoM? #5 Anything to do with DADA teacher? wait that'd be a suggestion of mine so I guess onto my picks.... ;) 1. LUPIN: I LOVE the Lupin idea. I also remember reading a JK quote stating that Lupin would play a BIG role in the last 2 books. I mean, it's only fair that after she named a book after Sirius, she could do one for our other favourite Marauder....but then again we weren't introduced to Lupin until POA....so maybe not...(we all know he's a Prince in our hearts though...) 2. SNAPE: I can only imagine. (Well, who's to say he's NOT? -other than the fact that it would/could be a horrible crashing down for my book 7 theories, but whatever :P) 3. DUMBLEDORE: Because he's precious....although wouldn't being a Prince require the royal line member ahead of you to be alive....although this IS A MAGIC WORLD WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.....besides...interesting quote that makes me believe it is not Harry who would be related to Gryffindor but DD himself.... "And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still-greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort...perhaps they now pay allegiance to another...perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?" GoF p.562 BUT that doesn't make him a Prince. Just have to wait? 4. TOM RIDDLE: Actually who I thought was the subject at first...but i mean, he IS Voldemort. So he WASN'T born evil...but he said he did say "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT"...I mean he spelled it out for us...need we more proof? plus...my title instincts aren't always right with JK. That and Dumbledore spoke to him calling him Tom; he and Harry now share blood...it just doesn't make sense blood wise with what we've been told... 5. RANDOM OOTP CHARACTER: Well....Caradoc Dearborn vanished...it IS a possibility (ok am I having to much fun here?) 6. DADA Teacher: Another cool one would be nice for a change... ......So, out of any of my suggestions, I guess I would have to rely on my last 2 picks on being the most likely to happen. It's probably someone we may not know a lot about at the moment....I won't put Lupin out of the running...he's not high on my list b/c of appearing later. I think if Snape were the Prince, I don't think we'd find out until the end of the book. We can't quite risk having our spy be a half-blood prince and relating to Voldemort on 'good terms' with little scandal in the school...I mean imagine...SNAPE BEING THE SCANDALOUS TEACHER WITH EVERYONE KNOWING!!?!?!?!?!?....totally not right....*yet*....then the gloves would be off and open for book 7. Similar idea with DD....it would just be a distraction in the school IMO making it less unlikely, though JK has awesome creativity and could pull it off I'm sure....I just can't quite picture him right now either..... thoughts? AF :D From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 18:22:44 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:22:44 -0000 Subject: Voldy!James? (Re: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > > First *bow* to the greatest Conspiracy Theorist I've ever... "read". > > But I'm afraid you have lost me. What exactly do you mean by "Voldy! > James"? Did you mean "Vapor!James"? My head is Siriusly hurting with > all the "James first then Lily" and then "Lily first then James" and > THEN the new title, etc etc. > > Summon De-Confusion Squad, please!! > It's all moot I'm afraid. Another good theory up the spout. Damn. No, my reasoning was if the last spell Voldy's wand cast at GH killed James, and since logically the last spell cast also caused Vapour!Mort, why not combine the two? A possessed James casts a spell to kill his own son, it rebounds, kills/destroys James's body, leaving Vapour!Mort. Simple, devious and nasty. Unfortunately, JKR has changed the order of the spells again so that James wasn't the last victim after all. Oh dear. It's hardly worth getting up, some mornings. Kneasy From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 18:25:31 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:25:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007401c45e06$76578b40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103398 Mandy said It more the fact that Siurus Black was an immature, petulant, selfish, arrogant, hypocritical, angry, sad and lonely boy who never really grew up that's often discussed by those of us who really don't like him. Of course, that is what makes Sirius such a fascinating character, along with Snape. It's their faults that make them so intriguing. Mandy, who though that seeing Gary Oldman play him on screen might have changed my mind but, fortunately, no. Sherry But Sirius never had the chance to grow up. He was in prison from a young age, during a time when young adult men mature a lot. He didn't have the experiences in life that would have made him mature. He was being tormented by dementors, when he should have been raising hell, working, dating, getting married ... all that. i've just been reading POA again with a friend. We read it chapter by chapter, and comment to each other through email on all the details that strike us, serious or funny or anything. We've just finished all the chapters in the shrieking shack. I have come to have an even greater respect for Sirius than I did before. He would have sacrificed anything for Harry. Even his impulsiveness was thought out, so that he could help Harry. He took his role as guardian very much to heart, and it seems to have matured him more than anything else could have done. I see him as more tragic than ever now. Even after escaping, he was forced to live on the run, in hiding, not able to actively help the order, when his personality so cries out to take action. I am sadder than ever now that he was killed, because he was really all Harry had. Sure Harry has the whole wizarding world interested in him as the boy who lived, he's got his friends, the Weasleys, Dumbledore, but Sirius was the only parental figure he'd had since he was a little over a year old, and he tried to be a good one, even though as all parents, he did fail. My dad married my mom when he was 17. He went through several marriages, but he never grew up, not till a few years before he died of cancer at age 57. He and my mom had children soon after their marriage, broke up, dad remarried ... he never had the time he should have had to mature from being a teenager to a man. He was responsible in the sense of working and giving his family--families--a comfortable living, but inside he was still very much a boy. That's kind of how I see Sirius. Different experience, but same result. Sherry G From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 18:38:32 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:38:32 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > I don't think anyone was or could questioning Sirius' loyalty. > > It more the fact that Siurus Black was an immature, petulant, > selfish, arrogant, hypocritical, angry, sad and lonely boy who never > really grew up that's often discussed by those of us who really don't > like him. > > Of course, that is what makes Sirius such a fascinating character, > along with Snape. It's their faults that make them so intriguing. > Dear, oh dear, oh dear. Not question Sirius's loyalty? No problem at all. It might take me a couple of days to find the time to compose the post, so in the meantime, just as a taster, try post 79808 - Sirius Reservations and the thread that follows. Kneasy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:46:49 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:46:49 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - AAAAHHH!!!!!! Shoot Me Now!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adsong16" > wrote: > > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one > > of the updates: > > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > > manuscript ...." > > > [snip] > > Here's the test-only link: > > > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 > HunterGreen: > I'm a little confused about all this confusion. When I went to the > FAQ the answer to the question was: > > "Lily first, then James. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript ...." > > Perhaps it was put on incorrectly at first? (thus making an already > confusing situation *more* confusing). I'd suggest going to the > above link, I think it was all just a mistake. ANOTHER mistake, that > is. Either that or there's something off with my computer. Asian_lovr2: Aaaahhhh!!! Somebody shoot me! Now I am frustrated beyond belief! In another section of this thread, yesterday (Tue, Jun 29, 2004 12:04 am) I cut-and-pasted the information directly from JKR's Text-Only Website. Here is the first line from that cut-&-paste ... "James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript ..." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103243 The ONLY changes I made to the text were to add a 'Q:' in front of the question and an 'A:' in front of an answer. ALSO, please note that this Cut-&-Paste occurred just after midnight this morning (Tuesday). What makes it especially frustrating is that the first editions of the UK version had James then Lily coming from the wands. One would assume that early UK editions would match the original manuscript, and it was the USA edition that changed the manuscript. That seems to be what she is saying; that the USA edition made the change, thereby implying that the original UK edition was right. Now I absolutely don't know what to believe. Is the original FAQ a mistake or is the new corrected FAQ the mistake? If the original manuscript was correct, then why was the American edition correction a mistake? The American edition says 'Lily then James', now JKR, having apparently change her mind again, has changed it to match the American edition which the FAQ STILL claims was a mistake. I don't think we have the definitive answer yet. Personally, (ouch, my head hurts) I think the lastest (the same Tuesday but just after noon) correction is THE mistake, and last nights correction was correct (really, my head hurts). But now, I just don't see how we can trust either version unless JKR flat out with no ambiguity in no uncertain terms with the fewest words possible irrevocably and unquestionably states who died first. Given the confusion and the rapid changes, NONE of it has any credibility what-so-ever. Why did I even bother to get out of bed this morning? Steve/asian_lovr2 From DBoyken at aol.com Tue Jun 29 18:51:01 2004 From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:51:01 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aboutthe1910s" wrote: > and for Harry to proceed on his path to > becoming an Auror, his career of choice at this point, he has to > continue taking Potions. So Dumbledore will finally allow snape Snape > to take over DADA, and a new professor will teach Potions--one who > accepts students with less than an O. > a I personally don't think this is it. I think that, now Dumbledore's told Harry the prophecy and so Harry (and the rest of us) know what's riding on him, Dumbledore could not put Snape in front of the classroom to teach Harry DADA. It's too important for Harry to learn as much Defense Against the Dark Arts as possible--more important than learning Potions. I like to think that Dumbledore is going to find a top-notch DADA teacher to help Harry along (like he did when he hired Lupin). Maybe Snape will get it the 7th year--when things are coming to a climax and it might not hurt Harry to have lessons in this vital skill from someone who hates him (like his ultimate enemy does) . . . but it's too important to the wizarding world for Harry to learn this WELL. And we all saw how well the Occlumency lessons went! Deb in NJ From grianne2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:52:41 2004 From: grianne2 at yahoo.com (Annalisa Moretti) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:52:41 -0000 Subject: Could Dean Thomas be the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103402 This is the first thing which popped into my head as I read JKR's update, but it's complicated. Evidence: -- In "Title of Book Six: The Truth", JKR states: "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets', but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information's proper home was book six. I have said before now that 'Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link." -- Extra Stuff-->Dean Thomas' Background (Chamber of Secrets) reveals that Dean is a half blood, that this was initially supposed to be an important part of the series but was cut again and again from the books, starting with CoS, but "I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot." However, she also states "Now I don't think his history will ever make it into the books." Clearly, this gives Dean the ONLY character with the strongest ground to stand on to be the HBP, but would JKR tell us all about him on the page and say she thought it was never going to turn up in the books when all along she was planning on naming Book 6 about him? It seems unlikely. However, she did she "THINKS" it will never make it into the books, it's not definite. And therefore her putting it up on the site could be a case of her trying to get us to rule him out ... or ... alternately, she might be trying to make us think it IS him, when it really isn't. Keeping all of this in mind, I think it's impossible to ignore Dean as a candidate. How strange is it that JKR would tell us all of this info about a half blood character whose story was supposed to be an important part of CoS but was cut out, and then tell us the title of Book 6 is about a half blood, and that it's tied to info which was eliminated from CoS? After some thought, my current theory is that, Dean might appear in the book to the characters and/or the reader as a candidate to be the HBP, but it ends up being someone else entirely ... Seamus Finnigan for example (I count him probably as #2 after Dean, because of his also being half-blood, and the line about this being kept in the CoS movie, possibly at JKR's request). Now, I suppose the question we all REALLY should be considering here, is WHAT is the Half Blood Prince, rather than WHO. Annalisa Who wrote this all in a burst of excitement and good intentions, so do excuse any typos or bizarre leaps of logic and sense if they happen to have occured. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 29 18:54:40 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:54:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as New DADA Professor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103403 I personally don't think this is it. I think that, now Dumbledore's told Harry the prophecy and so Harry (and the rest of us) know what's riding on him, Dumbledore could not put Snape in front of the classroom to teach Harry DADA. It's too important for Harry to learn as much Defense Against the Dark Arts as possible--more important than learning Potions. I like to think that Dumbledore is going to find a top-notch DADA teacher to help Harry along (like he did when he hired Lupin). Maybe Snape will get it the 7th year--when things are coming to a climax and it might not hurt Harry to have lessons in this vital skill from someone who hates him (like his ultimate enemy does) . . . but it's too important to the wizarding world for Harry to learn this WELL. And we all saw how well the Occlumency lessons went! Deb in NJ Gina: Maybe Moody (will the real Professor Moody please stand up?) will be DADA teacher - he is obviously good at it. Or maybe Lupin will return breaking the cycle of different DADA teachers. ???? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 18:54:48 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:54:48 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > Howdy, Jen. I think Kneasy is just referring to the fact that on > some list of favorite characters, JKR had included Sirius. The list > at her website does NOT include him. KNEASY--was it this very same > list which originally included Sirius, or was it in some interview > somewhere where she mentioned him?? > > An interview. It was one given soon after OoP came out I think. She was explaining that the reason she cried so much over his death was that he was her favourite character. (Yes, I'm fairly sure it was *the* favourite character, though that could have been hyperbole.) And now he's not even an also-ran. Sirius must have done something to upset her. Naughty Sirius! Kneasy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:01:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:01:40 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103405 Kneasy wrote: snip > An interview. It was one given soon after OoP came out I think. > She was explaining that the reason she cried so much over his death > was that he was her favourite character. (Yes, I'm fairly sure it was *the* > favourite character, though that could have been hyperbole.) > > And now he's not even an also-ran. Alla: Yes, I think I remember that interview, but I was saying that I saw the list of her favourite characters as it is now previously. I will look it up when I get home. Kneasy: > Sirius must have done something to upset her. Naughty Sirius! > Alla: Word to myself. Not to drink ANYTHING near the computer while reading Kneasy posts. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:01:49 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:01:49 -0000 Subject: my favourite HBP picks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103406 "armadillof" wrote: > Ok. Before I solicit my random musings...just some thoughts.... > > #1 PRINCE OF WHAT? > #2 Blood line inheritance of royalty....or selected? > #3 Do you think the character's parents are dead? > #4 Anything to do with new governing/MoM? > #5 Anything to do with DADA teacher? wait that'd be a suggestion > of mine so I guess onto my picks.... ;) > > 1. LUPIN: > > I LOVE the Lupin idea. I also remember reading a JK quote > stating that Lupin would play a BIG role in the last 2 books. I > mean, it's only fair that after she named a book after Sirius, she > could do one for our other favourite Marauder....but then again we > weren't introduced to Lupin until POA....so maybe not...(we all know > he's a Prince in our hearts though...) > > 2. SNAPE: > > I can only imagine. (Well, who's to say he's NOT? -other than > the fact that it would/could be a horrible crashing down for my book > 7 theories, but whatever :P) > > 3. DUMBLEDORE: > > Because he's precious....although wouldn't being a Prince require > the royal line member ahead of you to be alive....although this IS A > MAGIC WORLD WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.....besides...interesting quote that > makes me believe it is not Harry who would be related to Gryffindor > but DD himself.... > > "And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still-greater power > could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort...perhaps > they now pay allegiance to another...perhaps that champion of > commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?" GoF p.562 > > BUT that doesn't make him a Prince. Just have to wait? > > 4. TOM RIDDLE: > > Actually who I thought was the subject at first...but i mean, he > IS Voldemort. So he WASN'T born evil...but he said he did say "I AM > LORD VOLDEMORT"...I mean he spelled it out for us...need we more > proof? plus...my title instincts aren't always right with JK. That > and Dumbledore spoke to him calling him Tom; he and Harry now share > blood...it just doesn't make sense blood wise with what we've been > told... > > 5. RANDOM OOTP CHARACTER: > > Well....Caradoc Dearborn vanished...it IS a possibility (ok am I > having to much fun here?) > > 6. DADA Teacher: > > Another cool one would be nice for a change... > > > ......So, out of any of my suggestions, I guess I would have to rely > on my last 2 picks on being the most likely to happen. It's > probably someone we may not know a lot about at the moment....I > won't put Lupin out of the running...he's not high on my list b/c of > appearing later. I think if Snape were the Prince, I don't think > we'd find out until the end of the book. We can't quite risk having > our spy be a half-blood prince and relating to Voldemort on 'good > terms' with little scandal in the school...I mean imagine...SNAPE > BEING THE SCANDALOUS TEACHER WITH EVERYONE > KNOWING!!?!?!?!?!?....totally not right....*yet*....then the gloves > would be off and open for book 7. Similar idea with DD....it would > just be a distraction in the school IMO making it less unlikely, > though JK has awesome creativity and could pull it off I'm sure....I > just can't quite picture him right now either..... > > thoughts? > > AF :D Hmmmmm. Interesting analysis. Personally, I'm betting on a new character, quite possibly the DADA teacher, but also possibly a new student, either a first year (nice to see Harry remember what it was like to be an 11-year-old celebrity, perhaps) or a transfer.... On point #3 (DD): A prince is not necessarily the son of a king. A prince is in fact a monarch of a principality, such as Monaco. Prince-as-son is an honorary title--ie Prince of Wales for the son of the English Monarch, since Wales is a constituent state of the UK. So Dumbledore could be in fact a prince and be parentless. Then again, what is there to say that DD's parents (or at least the one holding the throne) aren't alive? I mean, wizards are remarkably long-lived.... Of course, the prince in question could be Aberforth, rather than Albus.... From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 19:04:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:04:19 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103407 > vmonte responds: > > Molly as potions teacher? I would have never thought of this. I > know you are probably joking, but I would love to see a nurturing > person as potions teacher for a change. If DD thought that Molly's > life was in danger he might just put her at the school. She seems to > set high standards for her children. Maybe she was like Hermione at > school? And I can see Neville really doing well in potions with a > different kind of teacher. > > Making Snape a DADA teacher would be interesting, but can DD get away > with using Snape? He was a DE after all. Still, I would like to see > what Snape's bogart would look like... > Potioncat: Well, only half joking. She seems fairly skilled in many ways. And we've reason to believe she sat her NEWTS. Given the standards she sets for the kids, I expect she did well at school. Now, as to Snape as DADA...his bogart would no doubt scare all of us. But can you him teaching that class? "You idiot boy! I said think of something funny!" (and woe to the poor student who thinks of a tall hat with a vulture.) As far as his DE connections go, I seem to be in the minority to think that if his DE background didn't keep him out of Potions it wouldn't keep him out of DADA. From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:05:18 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:05:18 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > I personally don't think this is it. I think that, now Dumbledore's > told Harry the prophecy and so Harry (and the rest of us) know what's > riding on him, Dumbledore could not put Snape in front of the > classroom to teach Harry DADA. It's too important for Harry to learn > as much Defense Against the Dark Arts as possible--more important > than learning Potions. I like to think that Dumbledore is going to > find a top-notch DADA teacher to help Harry along (like he did when > he hired Lupin). Maybe Snape will get it the 7th year--when things > are coming to a climax and it might not hurt Harry to have lessons in > this vital skill from someone who hates him (like his ultimate enemy > does) . . . but it's too important to the wizarding world for Harry > to learn this WELL. And we all saw how well the Occlumency lessons > went! > > Deb in NJ > > > Gina: > Maybe Moody (will the real Professor Moody please stand up?) will be > DADA teacher - he is obviously good at it. Or maybe Lupin will return > breaking the cycle of different DADA teachers. ???? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I think perhaps we are ignoring what should be some obvious choices. Aren't we told in CoS that Flitwick was a dueling champ? Don't you think that Madame Pompfry's comments at the end of OoP about McGonagall (my favorite character) implies that she, too, is very well skilled in DADA? I think either of them, or perhaps both, could easily become the new DADA teacher. MaggieB From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:06:44 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:06:44 -0000 Subject: What does a failed Death Curse look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > >>> This isn't a challenge to your budding theory or anything, but > one question I have is this: Is it possible that Voldy killed Lily, > then went & killed James, and then finally cast the spell which > scarred Harry & vaporized himself--just as we've all thought, only > with the parents getting coffed in reverse order than we'd thought-- > and it's just that Priori Incantatum was HALTED before we could see > what that spell "looked like"?? > Or is my logic faulty here?<<< > > Kneasy: > > Erm, I don't think that's possible. > > Unless my logic is faulty ...) the spell that appears directly > > after Bertha should be the final one he cast at GH, the one that > > rebounded. ... For the sequence to end before we get to that > > spell would require Voldy to be destroyed before tackling Lily and > > James. Or it wasn't the rebound from Harry that nailed him, but > > another spell entirely. > > SSSusan again: > No, darn it, you've not misunderstood--MY logic is indeed faulty. > ... You're quite right. Whatever vaporized Voldy would've come > BETWEEN the two Potter parents & Frank Bryce in PI. > > ...edited... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan asian_lovr2: Susan, you are correct, that is where the vapor!Voldy spell should have appeared. Just one question; what does a failed death curse look like? All the other death curses showed the body of a dead person, but no one died from that one particular curse. Harry is a live, and in this scene, Voldy is very much alive. So what should we have seen? Answer: we don't know and neither does Harry, and neither does the rest of the wizard world for that matter, because a Death Curse like this, to anyone's knowledge, has never before occured in history. Conceivably, something came out of the wand that had no recognisable shape, form, or sound, or possibly a failed/rebounded non-fatal Death Curse has not shape, color, form, or sound. Only one person can say, and she isn't. Steve/asian_lovr2 From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jun 29 19:13:45 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:13:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does a failed Death Curse look like? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103410 asian_lovr2: Susan, you are correct, that is where the vapor!Voldy spell should have appeared. Just one question; what does a failed death curse look like? All the other death curses showed the body of a dead person, but no one died from that one particular curse. Harry is a live, and in this scene, Voldy is very much alive. So what should we have seen? Answer: we don't know and neither does Harry, and neither does the rest of the wizard world for that matter, because a Death Curse like this, to anyone's knowledge, has never before occured in history. Conceivably, something came out of the wand that had no recognisable shape, form, or sound, or possibly a failed/rebounded non-fatal Death Curse has not shape, color, form, or sound. Only one person can say, and she isn't. Steve/asian_lovr2 Gina: * has anyone ever asked how LV got his wand back? The house was rubble so did someone go get it? Is this mentioned and I just missed it? Where was i? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 19:13:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:13:12 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > snip > > > An interview. It was one given soon after OoP came out I think. > > She was explaining that the reason she cried so much over his death > > was that he was her favourite character. (Yes, I'm fairly sure it > was *the* > > favourite character, though that could have been hyperbole.) > > > > And now he's not even an also-ran. > > > Alla: > > Yes, I think I remember that interview, but I was saying that I saw > the list of her favourite characters as it is now previously. I will > look it up when I get home. > > > Kneasy: > > > Sirius must have done something to upset her. Naughty Sirius! Potioncat: Kneasy, if I promise to join in on the Sirius bashing, will you tell me where that *&* list is? > > > Alla: > > Word to myself. Not to drink ANYTHING near the computer while reading > Kneasy posts. Potioncat: Alla, if I promise to defend Sirius against Kneasy's bashing will you tell me where that list is? ESE!Potioncat (who really does want to know.) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:18:46 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:18:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103412 > > vmonte responds: > > > > Molly as potions teacher? I would have never thought of this. I > > know you are probably joking, but I would love to see a nurturing > > person as potions teacher for a change. If DD thought that > Molly's > > life was in danger he might just put her at the school. She seems > to > > set high standards for her children. Maybe she was like Hermione > at > > school? And I can see Neville really doing well in potions with a > > different kind of teacher. > > > > Making Snape a DADA teacher would be interesting, but can DD get > away > > with using Snape? He was a DE after all. Still, I would like to > see > > what Snape's bogart would look like... > > > > Potioncat: > Well, only half joking. She seems fairly skilled in many ways. And > we've reason to believe she sat her NEWTS. Given the standards she > sets for the kids, I expect she did well at school. > > Now, as to Snape as DADA...his bogart would no doubt scare all of > us. But can you him teaching that class? > "You idiot boy! I said think of something funny!" (and woe to the > poor student who thinks of a tall hat with a vulture.) > > As far as his DE connections go, I seem to be in the minority to > think that if his DE background didn't keep him out of Potions it > wouldn't keep him out of DADA. Antosha: Mark me down in that minority as well, 'cat. It seems perfectly reasonable that DD would turn inward to fill the DADA slot, since no one seems to want it outside, with good reason. I still think he might teach the class himself sixth year, (thus realizing our collective fears of his early demise) but.... I think Molly would make an excellent potions master. I think it's clear that she's an accomplished witch; she's been pressed into domestic self-employment while her large brood were growing, but now that they're all well out of the house, it would be nice to see her apply her skills elsewhere. Can you imagine how clean that dungeon would be? Some nice chintz pillows? A throw-rug or two? And Neville and Harry brewing up a storm? It would also get Harry around the must-have-O-on-OWLs restriction for NEWT-level Potions. I personally think he might have gotten an O--perhaps Neville as well--but you never know. I can see JKR putting Harry through the ringer thinking he's failed at his chosen career already, only to find that the rules have changed.... From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 19:19:03 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:19:03 -0000 Subject: What does a failed Death Curse look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Just one question; what does a failed death curse look > like? > > All the other death curses showed the body of a dead person, but no > one died from that one particular curse. Harry is a live, and in this > scene, Voldy is very much alive. That point is arguable, IMO. There should be a dead Voldy body somewhere, cluttering up the scenery. He arrived at GH in corporate form; he left it as a spirit entity. What happened to the body he arrived in? Can't it considered to have been 'killed'? Even Voldy says "I was ripped from my body" so where is it? A body with no life equals AK scores 1, no matter that it wasn't the intended target. It should show on the replay and it doesn't. Kneasy From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:45:56 2004 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:45:56 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103414 I'm having problems understanding why everyone seems to have decided that the 'Half Blood Prince' character must have appeared in Chamber of Secrets. The title Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince could easily have worked for book 3 if Voldemort was the 'Prince' here's the important bit - referred to in THAT title. None of the above negates the possibility of using the title in either book 3 or 6. Just because JKR's titles have been very specific doesn't mean this is the only way to go. They could just as easily (and specifically) called. BK1 - HP and the Mysterious Package BK2 - HP and the Heir of Slytherin BK3 - HP and the Godfather BK4 - HP and the Triwizard Tournament BK5 - HP and the House of Black Admittedly 'my' titles for book 3 & 5 are slightly weak, But Enid Blyton got away with murder with the titles for her Famous Five books. Please tell me if I'm totally off my trolley due to new HP stimulation. We want book 6, or at least an idea of when we're getting it... karenlyall666 From medea.hk at ifrance.com Tue Jun 29 17:57:24 2004 From: medea.hk at ifrance.com (Medea) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:57:24 +0200 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E1AD84.4030400@ifrance.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103415 >Debra: >I don't know... Anyone, feel free to shoot me down if you completely >disagree, but I think that maybe, just maybe, JKR may have had the >same title in mind for a different person. > >Then again, the more I think about it the more I agree with the whole >Tom Riddle thing... After all, she's already established them as >separate people, with Dobby's clue ("Not... not *He-Who-Must-Not-Be- >Named*, sir...") I think it could be Tom Riddle, even if the "Lupin" and "OC" ideas seem quite possible too... About Tom, I consider him as a separate entity, not "Lord Voldemort" - He would had his own existence if he had stolen Ginny's life. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=17 Here, JKR says she can't explain what would have happened if Ginny died in CoS before the seven books are finished. Maybe the explanation will be given in the next books? During CoS, Voldemort didn't have a body, so if Tom did get his own existence, his body would have been the perfect host for LV. Now, of course, LV has a brand new body, but I keep wondering what the effect of Harry's blood is on it. It allows to LV to touch Harry, but wasn't there a light of triumph in Dumbledore eyes when Harry told him about the blood in book 4? Maybe the blood will cause problems to LV, and this could convince him to get another body? In that case, his own 16 years old body would be the best choice, if there is some way to get Tom back (considering Voldemort's survival skills, I wouldn't be surprised to see another diary, or to learn that the original wasn't perfectly destroyed...Ginny has gained some importance in book five, too, and she was the link between the dirary and life for Tom.). Well, considering that I pray to know more about Tom past since CoS, that's only wishful thinking from me... And I've probably missed important parts of OotP, and of other posts of the ML, so feel free to kill me for my stupidity... (And forgive my poor english) 'Dea. From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:08:34 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:08:34 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103416 "koinonia02" wrote: > Did we really learn anything in OoP that was quite important? Er, well... There was Sirius, you know, *dying*. That kind of might have been important. Maybe the important thing was that he would only be proven innocent upon his death. a From mauranen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:44:39 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:44:39 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: <000401c45db8$55991d40$de00a8c0@bethcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103417 > JKR: I shall tell you one thing without making you shift > any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And > that's all I'm saying on THAT subject until the book's published. My addition to the discussion. Guesses who it could be, Colin? ;) Lockhart? ;) - but seriously Mark Evans sounds more plausible. Or how about Snape? I'm still convinced there's more to him than we know. But stupid question: has anyone got past that brick wall she mentions? I'm utterly frustrated with tapping bricks and getting nowhere... Sinking back to lurkdom for another six months, Jekatiska From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue Jun 29 18:57:24 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:57:24 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius...almost. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103418 I confess, I love Snape. I cried after Sirius's death, but not for him. For Harry. If he survive, his mental state will be...in need of help. Presto. I think that Sirius and Snape look(s/ed) like each other. Both still in school days, both who wait Harry to act like his father... And Sirius could attack just for the pleasure, like Snape. Ther is something which bother me lighly in OOTP, it's when Harry discovered his future class of occlumency. Snape just said 'Sit down Potter'. I'm sure he didn't say it gently, but it was just a word, not "sit down already, I don't have all the day!". and Sirius answered (458, uk version) : **** "You know,[...],I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see." An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face. **** Really, no need to...wait. Why Sirius insist with "it's my house"? And why Snape is bothered by that? We know it's not his house. Snape doesn't have a right on 12, Grimmauld Place, does he? Christelle. From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:22:50 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:22:50 -0000 Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103419 I'd just like to say that I expect to have this theory shot down and ardently disagreed with, I just think it's worth consideration... Okay, so when Voldie possesses Harry in the end of OotP, and Harry thinks of Sirius, the warm, squishy feelings drive our friend Voldie out of Harry. From his own body, the warm squishies are merely repulsive, but bearable. But imagine if Harry were to somehow find in his heart *pity* or some kind of compassion/forgiveness for Voldie... These kind of feelings, actually directed specifically at Voldemort, even from some distance, would most likely be more than Voldemort could bear. Not that I think that Voldemort deserves forgiveness, or that it would be remotely fair to ask it of Harry... I'm just saying, if he could find it in himself to forgive Voldemort, I really think it would destroy Voldie. Voldemort crushed! by warm, squishies! And it plays into the whole deal with Harry having the power that Voldie has not, blah, blah... a From DBoyken at aol.com Tue Jun 29 19:47:04 2004 From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:47:04 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor/Harry as Auror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: It > would also get Harry around the must-have-O-on-OWLs restriction for NEWT-level > Potions. I personally think he might have gotten an O-- perhaps Neville as well--but you > never know. I can see JKR putting Harry through the ringer thinking he's failed at his > chosen career already, only to find that the rules have changed.... I think if the Aurors were going to make an exception for anyone, they would for Harry . . . especially after he (presumably) defeats the big-V while he's still in SCHOOL! (Assuming, yes, that he survives and all that . . . but anyone who can defeat the biggest, baddest, scariest evil wizard at 17 can certainly handle exploding toilets and whatnot! I'd think the Aurors would fall all over themselves trying to recruit him--even if his Potions aren't quite up to snuff.) Deb in NJ From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Tue Jun 29 19:54:09 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (aeshamali) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:54:09 -0000 Subject: Dudley the Half Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103421 >"Mandy" >If Petunia and Dudley turn out to be magical. That would make Dudley a half blood. >Dudley Dursley the Half Blood Prince. A scary, unexpected but rather interesting >twist. Not to mention Dudley being one of the only two people in the world who are >actually blood related to Harry makes him an interesting target for Voldemort. >Cheers, Mandy Hey Mandy, I had the same idea. I posted last night in post #103261 the following: "If this is indeed the title of Book 6, my immediate thought was Dudley.I read digest, and this is the last Digest I've gotten, so forgive me ifsomeone's already put Dud's name on the block. Lots of people have speculated that Dudley could be the one who is the magical late bloomer... or that his magical abilities have been contained and hidden all this time. I think the "prince" part could be because he is a prince, at least to his parents... a Half Blood Prince. It would make sense to me, since Petunia knows more than she lets on, and as many have said it's possible there were other wizarding folk in the Evans family tree, which is why their parents were so excited that they had a witch in the family." I think it could make sense... the title not being about actual royalty, but someone who's just been treated as such. It's an interesting thought... though as someone said, it wouldn't make a lot of sense if this is Harry's shortest Privet stay and Dudley shares top billing. However, there's just more than meets the eye... and I wonder if we'll ever find out what Duddykins was experiencing when the Dementors descended upon them? I guess we'll have to wait and see! Aesha From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 19:55:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:55:55 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius...almost. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103422 Christelle wrote:> snip > and Sirius answered (458, uk version) :> > **** > "You know,[...],I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, > Snape. It's my house, you see." > An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face. > **** > > Really, no need to...wait. > > Why Sirius insist with "it's my house"? And why Snape is bothered by > that? We know it's not his house. Snape doesn't have a right on 12, > Grimmauld Place, does he? Potioncat: I snipped to keep this short, I also saw a similarity in appearance and behavior. And, I thought there was something to the "It's my house, you see." as well. There was something in that dig that Snape understood which we did not. Potioncat From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:58:49 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:58:49 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" wrote: > Allison wrote: > > Just to clear up: Although I myself have a later version, > > apparently in the first US printing the order was wrong: it > > had James coming out first and saying "your mother is coming." asain_lovr2: I can't make a definitive statement here, but that's not how I heard it. I'm not aware of any 'James then Lily' USA versions (Scholastic Pub). It appeared that way in the original UK version which was published about a year(?) before the USA editions, as proven by looking at the scans that are posted in this groups file section. > Kelly: > > ... we had some scans of the original and the corrected versions > here in the files, and after a little hunting located them. ... > > I've moved them to the main Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ > ... > > priori-original.gif (apparently from the Bloomsbury first edition) > > priori-s.jpg (corrected version, from the ninth edition, not sure > which publication) > > > --Kelley Asian_lovr2: Thanks Kelly. Just a couple of points. The sequence as I heard it (heard, not documented) was that the UK editions, as confirmed by your Bloomsbury/UK scan, said 'James then Lily', it was later change to match the USA versions as 'Lily then James' as established by you 9th Printing scan (can we assume that is also a 9th printing Bloomsbury/UK version), then I heard that the latest UK version reverted /back/ to the original order (James then Lily). Can anyone with access to a bookstore in the UK or Canada go in and look at a recent printing to see what the order is the these most recent versions? Also, note that hardcover and paperbacks may not match. I would assume it would be best to use the Hardcover version. I have been lead to believe that, as note far above, the USA editions have all been consistent through all editions and printings. Is there anyone out there in the great Potter world, who can produce a 'James then Lily' Scholastic/US version of the book? There must be fans out there who have early versions. (I was late to the bandwagon) It would be nice to get the sequence of events relative to the various publishers and printings nailed down, positively confirmed, so we could all work from the same core of verified information. Thanks to any help anyone can give. Steve/asian_lovr2 From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 19:58:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:58:15 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor/Harry as Auror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103424 Deb wrote: > I think if the Aurors were going to make an exception for anyone, > they would for Harry . . . especially after he (presumably) defeats > the big-V while he's still in SCHOOL! (Assuming, yes, that he > survives and all that . . . but anyone who can defeat the biggest, > baddest, scariest evil wizard at 17 can certainly handle exploding > toilets and whatnot! I'd think the Aurors would fall all over > themselves trying to recruit him--even if his Potions aren't quite up > to snuff.) > Potioncat: But if he doesn't take Potions at Hogwarts, he'll lack 2 years of Potion training. I don't think they can overlook that. I'm sure he'll get Potions, figuring out how is the fun of it! Potioncat From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jun 29 20:00:23 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:00:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E1CA57.90404@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103425 > > But stupid question: has anyone got past that brick wall she mentions? > I'm utterly frustrated with tapping bricks and getting nowhere... www.potterskeys.com The solution is under the hairband section. Jem From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:00:09 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:00:09 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor/Harry as Auror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" > wrote: > It > > would also get Harry around the must-have-O-on-OWLs restriction for > NEWT-level > Potions. I personally think he might have gotten an O-- > perhaps Neville as well--but you > never know. I can see JKR putting > Harry through the ringer thinking he's failed at his > chosen career > already, only to find that the rules have changed.... > > > I think if the Aurors were going to make an exception for anyone, > they would for Harry . . . especially after he (presumably) defeats > the big-V while he's still in SCHOOL! (Assuming, yes, that he > survives and all that . . . but anyone who can defeat the biggest, > baddest, scariest evil wizard at 17 can certainly handle exploding > toilets and whatnot! I'd think the Aurors would fall all over > themselves trying to recruit him--even if his Potions aren't quite up > to snuff.) > > Deb in NJ Antosha: Very true. However, I can't see JKR setting up a hurdle like that simply to brush it aside. And Harry wouldn't find out about *not* needing NEWT-levels Potions until the end of seventh year... two years after he gets his (we presume) sub-par Potions OWL score. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 20:03:00 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:03:00 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenlyall666" wrote: > I'm having problems understanding why everyone seems to have decided > that the 'Half Blood Prince' character must have appeared in Chamber > of Secrets. > > The title Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince could easily have > worked for book 3 if Voldemort was the 'Prince' here's the important > bit - referred to in THAT title. True, but the fact that this was considered as a possible title for Book 2 argues that someone who could fit the description "Half Blood Prince" must have been in that book. Rowling changed the title, and it's possible she took the HBP character out of the book entirely in order to introduce him later on. But I don't think that's likely, because someone or something important enough to figure in the title would be hard to just remove. > > None of the above negates the possibility of using the title in > either book 3 or 6. Just because JKR's titles have been very > specific doesn't mean this is the only way to go. They could just as > easily (and specifically) called. > > BK1 - HP and the Mysterious Package > BK2 - HP and the Heir of Slytherin > BK3 - HP and the Godfather > BK4 - HP and the Triwizard Tournament > BK5 - HP and the House of Black Sure, any of those would have worked. But that's because all those things or people in the titles actually DO appear in the appropriate books. It's one thing to say, "Hmmm, 'HP and the House of Black' - too obvious, I'm going to change it to 'HP and the Order of the Phoenix.'" It's quite another to rewrite the book so no "House of Black" is ever mentioned in Book 5. That's why I think that, name change notwithstanding, the "Half Blood Prince" is still there in CoS; maybe a little blurred around the edges so he doesn't obviously leap out at us and make the mystery too easy. (Now that I think of it, Tom Riddle is *literally* blurred around the edges when Harry meets him in the Chamber!) Wanda > From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 20:13:08 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:13:08 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" wrote: > I think that, now Dumbledore's > told Harry the prophecy and so Harry (and the rest of us) know what's > riding on him, Dumbledore could not put Snape in front of the > classroom to teach Harry DADA. It's too important for Harry to learn > as much Defense Against the Dark Arts as possible--more important > than learning Potions. I like to think that Dumbledore is going to > find a top-notch DADA teacher to help Harry along (like he did when > he hired Lupin). I'm inclined to agree that this would make sense for Dumbledore as responsible headmaster, but I'm afraid the DADA job is, as it were, more in the control of JKR than of DD. Let me flesh this out a bit. It seems to me we have three types of teachers at Hogwarts: 1) longtime teachers with a genuine expertise in their subjects (MM, Flitwick, et al.); 2) those DD is sheltering or who would otherwise have trouble finding work in the WW (Trelawney, Hagrid); 3) the DADA job. Now, Snape is an interesting case, as is Lupin: each is, arguably, there for reasons of charity and/or security, but both teach/taught subjects they are very well-qualified to teach, so they span categories. But you would think that DD would have realized that having an effective DADA teacher would be a top priority at least from year two. The fact that he's let the evil, the awful, and the insufferable get the job 4 years out of 5 so far suggests to me that: EITHER the DADA job is so much a running joke/plot device that JKR doesn't really give us the leisure to contemplate DD's role in hiring, OR DD regards DADA as a subject that is basically not susceptible of teaching in a classroom setting, so that (with accidental exceptions) the real learning students do in DADA subjects takes place out of class. As a point of comparison, with Divination, real predictions of the future are very rare, and divination classes mainly just fill a space in students' schedules. DADA is more of a "real" subject than Divination, but the existence of formal classes is still essentially a distraction (for readers, if not for savvy students) from the core of what DADA really involves. _That_ Harry sums up neatly for us when disclaiming any special DADA talent when Hermione proposes the DA. What's needed is resourcefulness, bravery, quick thinking, a certain amount of luck, and a good repertoire of spells that students learn in other classes, especially in Charms. Carin From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:04:49 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:04:49 -0000 Subject: The Half Blood Prince (was my favorite HBP picks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103429 I'd like to amass some of the possible candidates for who everyone thinks t=he eponymous Half Blood Prince is. Jo has told us that it is definitely not Harry or Voldemort - so who is it? Armadillof and others have some great suggestions, so I'll start by commenting on some of what has been said. Here's a quote from BBC Newsround where Jo talks about the relationship between HBP (the now-confirmed book 6 title) and CoS: Q: What was the original working title of Chamber of Secrets? JKR: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I quite liked that title, unfortunately the story bore no relation whatsoever to the title by the time I'd finished. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353727.stm IMHO this means that no logical connection between CoS and the HPB can necessarily be made. (Not to rule out those great suggestions, notably Hagrid, but I'm getting ahead of myself. armadillof: > #1 PRINCE OF WHAT? > #2 Blood line inheritance of royalty....or selected? me, Albusthewhite: Great place to start. My initial thoughts are that the character is either= a) a half-blood who is prince of something, or b) someone who is prince of half-bloods (e.g. Dumbledore). Duh, but it's always good to start at the beginning. As several people have pointed out, "prince" could be used literally or metaphorically, so the person in question wouldn't necessarily have to be royalty or even selected in any way. Think of Robin Hood - the prince of thieves (and not that Costner movie!) is not *really* a prince, but the leader of a band of thieves. armadillof: > #3 Do you think the character's parents are dead? Albusthewhite: Another interesting question ? in terms of royalty, of course, a prince necessarily has a parent or other older relative (sibling, uncle/aunt, etc.) who is king or queen. If the HBP is not literally a royal or hereditary prince, then all bets are off. Some of the candidates for the HBP so far: Hagrid, Lupin, Snape, DD, Riddle (perhaps is not technically VM?) and Dean Thomas (major support coming from the fact that he was supposed to be pivotal to CoS and HBP was the original title a somewhat tenuous link) Some of my comments: Hagrid is a great choice because he's been left with Grawp, which may give =him an "in" to the giant community ? tho' he didn't get such a great reception there in OotP, did he? Still, he could be a half-blood (giant/human) prince of the giants. Lupin/Snape ? surely possible, but no specific evidence thus far. Also, ba=rring some unforeseen circumstance, Snape is pretty clearly a pureblood (Slytherin and Malfoy connections). DD ? definitely one of the common man's favorite wizards, a protector of ha=lf-bloods & muggles. I'll point out again that the HBP doesn't need to be half blood, he could be the prince of half bloods. And now for some candidates who are completely different: Neville ? to me, the most obvious choice, since he's the "other" child the =prophecy could have referred to, but is he half-blood? I suspect he's a pureblood, but in SS "The Sorting Hat" there's a brief discussion of which Gryffindor students in Harry's year are full/half blood and muggles. Jo is introducing us to how wizard children are produced, but also working in important info (as she is so skilled at doing). Here's what Neville has to say in SS: "`Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch [ ] but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages'" (125, USHB). He doesn't specify whether his parents are wizards or muggles (as he is understandably reticent to say anything about his parents) so he could be either half- or fullblood wizard. Not Muggle, because there is certainly wizard in his family. I assume his father, as a witch's son, is a wizard, so it would th=en depend on whether his mother is a witch or a muggle. Are the Longbottoms a royal family? Seamus - Seamus tells us in SS, "`I'm half-and-half [ ] Me dad's a Muggle. = Mom didn't tell him she was a witch `til after they were married. Bit of a nasty shock for him'" (125). But I only mention this because it is deliberately plugged in there. James - Does the title character have to be living? Does the HBP have to exist in the "now" of the story, or could it be a piece of history or myth that figures into the story of book 6 somehow? Do we know anything about James's ancestry? I know Jo says that the HBP isn't Harry, but if we hyphenate it to "Half-bl=ood Prince" then the abbr. is HP. Eh? Eh? Whaddya think? Ok, stretching a bit, I admit. That's all I've got time for right now. Please keep posting suggestions and evidence, as I am really curious what all those bright, creative minds out there come up with! Albus the White (whose ability to procrastinate is matched only by his hmmm, I'm stumped. Well, I'll figure it out later) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 20:27:46 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:27:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103430 Carin wrote: > I'm inclined to agree that this would make sense for Dumbledore as responsible > headmaster, but I'm afraid the DADA job is, as it were, more in the control of JKR than > of DD. Potioncat: Very good post! We all seem to forget from time to time that someone really is directing all this. Having DADA so unstable has allowed her to bring in all sorts of new characters that one wouldn't normally see parading through a school. And by having the fact/rumor that Snape of all people wants it, adds quite a bit of tension and backstory. From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:42:11 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4807 In-Reply-To: <1088538972.6124.17078.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040629204211.15231.qmail@web52510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103431 Steve> wrote: > > "JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates:> > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original manuscript ...." I followed your link and this is the text. Section: F.A.Q. At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's parents have come out of the wand? Lily first, then James. Thats how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time. That would equate to James being killed first and being the last to come out of the wand. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 20:42:29 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:42:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAQs: Lily died before James? References: Message-ID: <003801c45e19$98bfda80$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103432 If the graveyard!PI only shows AKs, the 12 Muggles wouldn't have emerged...which then leads me to wonder...would James have been killed much later than the night at GH? If it could be true that Peter wouldn't have had enough control over LV's wand to cast an AK (thus causing the street damage). Could he have been spending time getting used to the wand and *then* killed James? But then, why wouldn't anyone know that James was alive? Stefanie *** No, the Priori Incantem shows every spell, not just AKs. Remember, we saw a whisp of Wormtail's new silver hand escape the wand before anything else did. Alina. From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:14:05 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:14:05 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103433 karenlyall666: > > I'm having problems understanding why everyone seems to have decided > > that the 'Half Blood Prince' character must have appeared in Chamber > > of Secrets. Wanda: > True, but the fact that this was considered as a possible title for > Book 2 argues that someone who could fit the description "Half Blood > Prince" must have been in that book. Rowling changed the title, and > it's possible she took the HBP character out of the book entirely in > order to introduce him later on. But I don't think that's likely, > because someone or something important enough to figure in the title > would be hard to just remove. now me: In an interview given 10/2004, Jo was asked, "What was the original working title of Chamber of Secrets?" She replied, "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I quite liked that title, unfortunately the story bore no relation whatsoever to the title by the time I'd finished." No relation whatsoever... I'm taking that as pretty good evidence that the HBP will not be related to CoS. Perhaps she was using it to refer to Riddle/VM (certainly apt) but then decided it would work better for something else? Certainly the HBP might appear in CoS, but not necessarily and we might not recognize him (or her or it?). albus the white From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 29 20:47:13 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:47:13 -0000 Subject: HBP - Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103434 I believe that Lupin is a good choice for the HBP. Here is why I think that: 1. From the world book day chat: Siriusstar: Is Remus a pureblood? JK Rowling replies -> Half blood. --- Did JKR get to decide which questions to answer? If so, she would have considered this a way to give a clue beforehand. 2. She talks a lot about Lupin as one of her favorite characters and one of the characters she looks most forward to writing about. That means to me that there must be something particularly special about him - don't know if that's beyond the werewolf/inner conflict thing. 3. If there were any nuances in the POA movie different from the books, I think it was Lupin's bridge conversation with Harry that talked about how Lily was able to see good in him when even he wasn't able to. We know that something huge will be revealed about Lily, so this could be part of it. 4. JKR stated that she would not need to write a prequel because by the end we'd have all the backstory we need. There seem to be 3 timelines here: LV/Hagrid, Marauders, Harry. To me, the only thing that makes sense to tie in the Marauders timeline would be if one of the marauders has some significant impact on the backstory, so I vote for someone in that timeline (for this case, it could also be Pettigrew), but not sure if he's half or pure. Anyway, that is my story and I'm stickin' to it. Kristen From clio44a at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:47:53 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Subject: Little King Regulus = the Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103435 Well, time to join the quest for the Half Blood Prince. I just had a brainwave. A prince is a little king, right? Little King = Regulus Regulus is the latin diminutive of rex, which means king. Now, we know that Regulus Black was killed by Voldemort or on his orders (OotP, p. 104, Bloomsbury hardcover copy). Sirius thinks that was because he tried to back out of the Death Eaters. We don't know what really happened. Maybe Voldemort murdered his possible successor for reasons yet unknown? Regulus Black was a pureblood as far as we know, from a family who thought themselves "practically royal". (magic paternity test, anyone?) Who says the half blood prince must be a halfblood? I haven't any complex theories yet, but I thought this was worth to throw into the ring. Forgive me if you discussed this already and dismissed it, but my quick search of the last messages brought nothing to the light. Clio, whose money in the race for the HBP is actually on Mark Evans, but who thinks Regulus WILL come back to haunt us, HBP or not. From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:53:28 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:53:28 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "albusthewhite" wrote: > > > karenlyall666: > > > I'm having problems understanding why everyone seems to have decided > > > that the 'Half Blood Prince' character must have appeared in Chamber > > > of Secrets. > > Wanda: > > True, but the fact that this was considered as a possible title for > > Book 2 argues that someone who could fit the description "Half Blood > > Prince" must have been in that book. Rowling changed the title, and > > it's possible she took the HBP character out of the book entirely in > > order to introduce him later on. But I don't think that's likely, > > because someone or something important enough to figure in the title > > would be hard to just remove. > > now me: > In an interview given 10/2004, Jo was asked, "What was the original working title of > Chamber of Secrets?" She replied, "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I quite liked > that title, unfortunately the story bore no relation whatsoever to the title by the time I'd > finished." No relation whatsoever... > I'm taking that as pretty good evidence that the HBP will not be related to CoS. Perhaps > she was using it to refer to Riddle/VM (certainly apt) but then decided it would work better > for something else? Certainly the HBP might appear in CoS, but not necessarily and we > might not recognize him (or her or it?). > > albus the white Steph: So if "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" had no relation what so ever to COS in the end...why are we still contemplating Tom Riddle? I must say though...I was apalled by the thought of Tom Riddle being the Half Blood prince....but many of you have atleast caused me to rethink things...I still don't think it's him, though... Do you think it's possible that it's not a LIVE person...but a diary that lets Harry and the others in on past happenings?...in a truthful way of course. The diary itslef was a major part of COS...so maybe we're thinking in the wrong direction.... From kawfhw at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 20:56:23 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:56:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP - Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103437 > From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com > > 4. JKR stated that she would not need to write a prequel because by > the end we'd have all the backstory we need. There seem to be 3 > timelines here: LV/Hagrid, Marauders, Harry. To me, the only thing > that makes sense to tie in the Marauders timeline would be if one of > the marauders has some significant impact on the backstory, so I vote > for someone in that timeline (for this case, it could also be > Pettigrew), but not sure if he's half or pure. I'm not one to question JKR, but I just can't believe that we will actually get all the backstory that we need. I mean, think about it - there is so much that we want to know - even beyond the Harry/LV conflict - think about all the characters that we want more information on like James/Lily, Serius, Lupin, Snape, DD, etc. Objects and magical components that we need more understanding of like the time turner, various charms and spells, and just exactly what are the rules of the secret keepers. So far, we've gone through five books and we constantly have more questions and few answers. Will book six start to turn the tide and begin answering OR will book seven just be a tell-all? From Lynx412 at AOL.com Tue Jun 29 20:58:36 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:58:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103438 In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > Is there anyone out there in the great Potter world, who can produce a > 'James then Lily' Scholastic/US version of the book? There must be > fans out there who have early versions. (I was late to the bandwagon) Mine is a James then Lily version; the Scholastic hardback dated as copywrite 2000 Scholastic Inc. It's also listed as the First American edition, July 2000. Pg. 667 has the James appears first, says "Your mother's coming..." version. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:02:14 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:02:14 -0000 Subject: HBP - Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > I believe that Lupin is a good choice for the HBP. Here is why I > think that: > > 1. From the world book day chat: > > Siriusstar: Is Remus a pureblood? > JK Rowling replies -> Half blood. > > --- Did JKR get to decide which questions to answer? If so, she > would have considered this a way to give a clue beforehand. > > 2. She talks a lot about Lupin as one of her favorite characters and > one of the characters she looks most forward to writing about. That > means to me that there must be something particularly special about > him - don't know if that's beyond the werewolf/inner conflict thing. > > 3. If there were any nuances in the POA movie different from the > books, I think it was Lupin's bridge conversation with Harry that > talked about how Lily was able to see good in him when even he wasn't > able to. We know that something huge will be revealed about Lily, so > this could be part of it. > > 4. JKR stated that she would not need to write a prequel because by > the end we'd have all the backstory we need. There seem to be 3 > timelines here: LV/Hagrid, Marauders, Harry. To me, the only thing > that makes sense to tie in the Marauders timeline would be if one of > the marauders has some significant impact on the backstory, so I vote > for someone in that timeline (for this case, it could also be > Pettigrew), but not sure if he's half or pure. > > Anyway, that is my story and I'm stickin' to it. > > Kristen Kristen; I think you've got somethinghere....I'm currently rereading OotP and I think it's quite remarkable that Lupin always seems to be the calming voice throughout the book....everytime Molly is upset...Lupin is talking to her...seems like a very royal trait, keeping the army calm? From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 21:03:02 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:03:02 -0400 Subject: Evans is book canon (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince?) References: Message-ID: <007401c45e1c$77f90440$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103440 > This is all just speculation of course, but I wonder if we are all > reading wayyyyy too much into Mark Evans appearance in the book. > Unless I am mistaken, Lily Potter's maiden name isn't mentioned > anywhere in the actual text, merely from an interview with JKR. And > JKR has repeatedly hinted that the clues are always in the text as > to what is coming next. So if Mark Evans was truly meant as a hint > to readers, she would've dropped the name Evans in relation to Lily > by now. Think of all the other characters we saw emerge later in the > series. Mrs. Figg became important after several clues to her > identity, Dumbledore speaking about Arabella Figg, Harry referencing > her, etc. I don't think JKR would take for granted that every living > HP fan had read this chat, and besides if someone hadn't asked about > Lily's maiden name, we'd never know. > > Ryan S. I'm afraid you're wrong, Lily's maiden name is mentioned in the Pensieve scene in book 5. Fifteen year old James repeatedly calls Lily by her last name, "Hey, Evans!" Alina. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 21:06:40 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:06:40 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "albusthewhite" wrote: > now me: > In an interview given 10/2004, Jo was asked, "What was the original working title of > Chamber of Secrets?" She replied, "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I quite liked > that title, unfortunately the story bore no relation whatsoever to the title by the time I'd > finished." No relation whatsoever... > I'm taking that as pretty good evidence that the HBP will not be related to CoS. Perhaps > she was using it to refer to Riddle/VM (certainly apt) but then decided it would work better > for something else? Certainly the HBP might appear in CoS, but not necessarily and we > might not recognize him (or her or it?). > I don't take her words quite so literally. We're still all debating what the meaning of "Prince" and "Half-Blood" are here, and rightly too, because the meaning isn't all that obvious. If a lot of background explanation is required to understand just who is the HBP and why, then it's quite possible that Rowling felt that such lengthy explanations didn't belong in Book 2. In that case, introducing the term wouldn't make much sense, and would just raise questions that weren't going to be answered for several years. That's what I think she meant by "bore no relation" - that so much of the background was missing that the term would not have made any sense, not that the character himself was completely omitted. I happen to think the HBP is Tom Riddle, but others have made a good case for different characters. However, as CoS stands right now, referring to ANY of them as a Half Blood Prince would have just come across as nonsense. There are too many pieces missing. I suspect that Rowling didn't want to go so deeply into Tom Riddle's background that early in the series; as it happens, the next bit of information we get about his youth comes in GoF, two books later. I think the next book will focus on some crucial incident(s) in his formative years, and that will make clear why the title is appropriate. Wanda From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:08:42 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629210842.92380.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103442 Steve wrote: Can anyone with access to a bookstore in the UK or Canada go in and look at a recent printing to see what the order is the these most recent versions? Steve/asian_lovr2 animallover I don't know if you consider this recent enough or not but my version is a hard cover Canadian from 2000 and it is James coming out before Lily. It is Lily who tells Harry to break the connection and what to do to get back to Hogwarts. I hope this helps. animallover --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 18:23:36 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:23:36 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA forshadows book 6 and 7. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103443 JK Rowling says that Prisoner of Azkaban director Alfonso Cuaron inadvertantly foreshadowed events from books six and seven in the latest movie. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling said. Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? From armadillof at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:32:09 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:32:09 -0000 Subject: HBP....James Potter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103444 Well? Ok. I'm really having TOO much fun here.... AF ;) From tubadave at normalview.com Tue Jun 29 20:19:52 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:19:52 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103445 I think everyone's overthinking this a bit. In our quest to uncover all the hidden clues and secrets of these books (not to mention our desire to find new ones to ponder that relate to the events of the final two books) sometimes we look right past the obvious. It has been well-established in the past (and was corrected in later printings of GoF, like the one I have) that James was killed first, then Lily, which would then cause Lily to come out of Voldemort's wand before James in the graveyard. As JKR says, that's how she had it in the original manuscript, but the editor changed it and she didn't catch it, hence the mistake of James appearing first in the original editions. I just looked at JKR's site again, and the wording has definitely changed since I first saw it about 14-15 hours ago. It now says "Lily first, then James" despite saying the exact opposite orginally. The fact that it's been altered to match everything that has previously been established backs up my original thought: the original wording of "James first, then Lily" was a typo. A typo about a typo, of sorts, which just makes things more confusing for everyone, but there you have it. Big D From firedancerflash at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 20:36:48 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:36:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as New DADA Professor References: Message-ID: <0a7101c45e18$cd4a9660$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 103446 I'm sorry. There is a reason why he's never gotten that job, and I don't expect him to get it now. We've been told time and again that Snape wants, and I do mean really wants that position. Lord knows he has the background, but I'm convinced he won't get it. All I truly have to go on is a hunch. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 21:12:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:12:50 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: Jamie: > Your logic agrees with mine -- James and Lily were killed before > the attempt on Harry, Bertha Jorkins (long) after the attempt on > Harry, therefore the Curse That Failed, the cornerstone of the > plot, would have shown up in between these two shadows at > the end of GF-- except nothing did! Interesting! > > Several possibilities...LV did not use the wand (although we see > him pointing a wand at Harry in the film of SS). LV used a > different wand (why would he?). Because the curse did not succeed, > the wand did not register it. But even though it did not succeed > something powerfully magical happened -- so powerfully magical that > it is the key to the series! Interesting that there's this blank > space in the wand's memory! Geoff: Months ago, this point was raised and I asked then as to how would we expect to see a failed spell shown using a "Priori Incantatem"? It didn't kill Harry, it didn't kill Voldemort on its rebound..... From plungy116 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 21:05:12 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:05:12 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: <40E1CA57.90404@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103448 Jem wrote: > The solution is under the hairband section. I'm so disappointed that I couldn't do it without help. I was trying different combinations, but obviously hadn't hit the right one. I shall endeavour NOT to cheat again - there's no fun in it. Haraheart From peter_jacobi at gmx.net Tue Jun 29 20:47:44 2004 From: peter_jacobi at gmx.net (peter_jacobi.rm) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:47:44 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103449 I've started a new thread, as it wouldn't fit anymore under "The Longbottom's secret message". Allison Denny wrote: [...] > Harry and co. have found a "bad guy" (or at least an evil > plan of some sort) in every book, and they go to great > lengths to foil him, but in every book they have some > detail terribly wrong. [...] > In PoA, Harry thinks Sirius has betrayed his parents and > is coming to kill him. He hates Sirius and is almost > willing to kill him in the Shrieking Shack, but it turns > out that Sirius was always loyal and did everything within > his power to protect Harry. [...] > In GoF, no one suspected that Moody was really Crouch and > was planning to deliver Harry to Voldemort. I'd like to concentrate on these two books, as I've found me most disturbed by these turns of events. Perhaps I'm just not a carefull enough reader (and reading the german translation doesn't help either), but what about any clues to the reader of these outcomes? In PoA, there is some clue, as the intruder in the sleeping room doesn't kill Ron, right? But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: "I should have known!" Regards, Peter Jacobi From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:55:34 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629205534.7160.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103450 Laurasia wrote: > You see, the only reason Petunia's blood made any difference > at all to Harry's safety was because Lily died to save Harry. > Lily's blood which protected Harry from death invoked the > ancient magic in Petunia's blood. > > James does not share Lily's blood. Until James dies to > protect Harry, his blood is worthless... It is only blood > relatives of Lily who can invoke the 'ancient magic.' Amber: You are correct in saying that James doesn't share Lily's blood, but James did help create Harry. So Harry has James and Lily's blood. DD has said that Harry doesn't have any "living" relatives except the Dursley's. I don't want to even consider that DD has been lying about this ::shudders:: From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 29 21:20:57 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:20:57 -0000 Subject: Peevs woz ere! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: Adi: > Hi, > Well, I looked at the door too and there were some things that > caught my eye. There is this writing in the mirror, saying 'peeves > woz ere!' and there is a half-crescent moon visible through the > window. > Note it doesn't say that Peeves was here but Peeves was ere. Well, > what can it mean? Any theories? Geoff: As one or two posters have commented, it's Cockney. It used to be quite the thing to write "Kilroy woz 'ere" or "Kilroy wos 'ere". It rather like my elder son who often jokingly says that he speaks with a "Sarf Lunnon" (South London) accent. Now, the mantle has shifted to Peeves. It is just the phonetic spelling of the way in which it is said. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 21:21:02 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:21:02 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter_jacobi.rm" wrote: > > In GoF, no one suspected that Moody was really Crouch and > > was planning to deliver Harry to Voldemort. > > I'd like to concentrate on these two books, as I've found > me most disturbed by these turns of events. > > Perhaps I'm just not a carefull enough reader (and reading the > german translation doesn't help either), but what about any > clues to the reader of these outcomes? In PoA, there is some > clue, as the intruder in the sleeping room doesn't kill Ron, > right? > > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. > After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: > "I should have known!" > The only clue I can think of is the flask. Crouch/Moody was always drinking out of his own silver flask that he carried around. Afterwards, we discover that this was because he needed to take the Polyjuice Potion every hour to keep from changing back into his own form. At the time, it was passed off as one of Moody's eccentricities, because he was so paranoid of being attacked and poisoned that he wouldn't drink anything prepared for him by someone else. It would be pretty near impossible for a reader to figure this out on his own, I think, but it's the sort of tell-tale clue that allows us to look back and say, "Ahhhh, yes, NOW I see!" Wanda From armadillof at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:49:06 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:49:06 -0000 Subject: The Half Blood Prince (was my favorite HBP picks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103453 Ok....James Potter being the Half Blood Prince bring some concepts to my mind... and I have some more comments on some good musings.... Albus The White wrote: > Lupin/Snape ? surely possible, but no specific evidence thus far. > Also, barring some unforeseen circumstance, Snape is pretty clearly > a pureblood (Slytherin and Malfoy connections). I actually question how much of a pureblood Snape is....And the chemistry set remark in the POA movie really has me wondering....not all Slytherins are pureblood...they'll deny that they are (consider Voldemort himself...or at least his followers).... > DD ? definitely one of the common man's favorite wizards, a protector > of half-bloods & muggles. I'll point out again that the HBP doesn't > need to be half blood, he could be the prince of half bloods. I thought the raised idea of Aberforth DD being the prince is another interesting possibility b/c I do think he'll have an interesting role to play.... > Neville ? to me, the most obvious choice, since he's the "other" > child the prophecy could have referred to, but is he half-blood? > He doesn't specify whether his parents are wizards or > muggles (as he is understandably reticent to say anything about his > parents) so he could be either half- or fullblood wizard. The Longbottoms are pureblood b/c JK/DD stated during "The Lost Prophecy" in OOTP "notice this, Harry: he chose, not the pureblood (which according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing) but the half-blood, like himself." So...I don't really suspect Neville... > James - Does the title character have to be living? Does the HBP > have to exist in the "now" of the story, or could it be a piece of > history or myth that figures into the story of book 6 somehow? Do > we know anything about James's ancestry? Now about James....it could possibly explain how Harry got all that money....AND we know James' opinions on Mudbloods/half bloods, etc... COULD MAKE SENSE...I've been thinking about this for TOO long haha... Ok....cool thoughts....anyone else want to add? AF From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 29 21:27:29 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:27:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours again References: <1088450343.44226.55103.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c45e1f$e22e51a0$534c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 103454 Kneasy speculated: > Personally I don't favour the 'artifact' approach - if there was > something that plugged into DD's study (the most obvious and logical > place) how did the news get out to the Diggles of this world so early? > Owls were flocking all over the place by breakfast-time, just a handful > of hours after the event. Nor I. I'd add to your original list of things that we know happened - the local Muggles are attracted to the scene (Hagrid and Harry just exit in time) Clearly (being Muggles and not privy to the Fidelius) they haven't witnessed what happened, but their arrival in response to an irruption of the WW into their reality means that - a clean up squad from the Ministry arrives next, perhaps with journalists from the Prophet and the WWN in tow. _Someone_ saw sufficient of what happened to be able to confirm that - Voldemort has been vapourised, and - Harry was responsible Were they perhaps standing outside, and saw/heard enough through the bedroom window to be able to give a report to the media? > An aside - if, as we are informed in OoP there are so few of the WW in > the neighbourhood of Privet Drive, why did Vernon see so many that > morning? It's a very interesting passage, that. The only time that we see the Muggle and Wizard worlds side by side. I conclude (given that the descriptions we have of wizard houses don't suggest that they move about much) that Vernon has a sufficiently long commute to work to pass through an area/areas outside Little Whinging. > No, I tend towards the 'Third Party' scenario, that there was somebody > else at GH. The odds are against it being a DE - or there would be no > reason to question the Longbottoms about the where-abouts of Voldy. And indeed, if other DEs had been there, - Peter (whom I surmise was also there, to show Voldemort the house) would not have made his getaway ("Where do you think you're going, rat boy? We want a _word_ with you about this...") - one of them would have gone into the ruins to see what had happened, scooped up the wailing Harry, and carefully disposed of him by non-magical means. End of story. > Though if it was someone close to DD, it still seems odd that the news > spread so fast. But if it was a betrayer, then spreading the news would > be a good way to warn the DEs to keep their heads down, especially if > this individual expected to be fully occupied or in hiding for a > while. The favourites seem to be Peter, Lupin or Snape, with Sirius or > the Longbottoms as outside chances. One could make the opposite case on the spreading the news bit, breaking it to the media would have spread alarm and despondency among the DEs and made them easier to round up. My question if there's anyone else there from your list is: why didn't they rescue Harry themselves, rather than leaving it for Hagrid to do? > So, the house at GH blows up (why?) I wonder if the effect of the "ancient magic" was to wipe out _all_ magical spells in the vicinity when it's triggered, including the ones holding up the house, which in turn promptly falls down. > and Sirius arrives, or says he did. > (If he's the 'Third Party' he never left), Hagrid arrives, sent by DD. > When did Hagrid arrive? The natural assumption would be that it was > quite late in the day - he'd want to hand over Harry to DD as fast as > possible, not hang around a ruin for hours with a toddler on his hands. > Not so, it seems. (See below.) Indeed not, on his own admission. He just got out in time, before the Muggles started swarming around, or words to that effect. There was only a very short time between the bang and all hell breaking loose for him to go in, rescue Harry, have a conversation with Sirius, and depart on the motor bike, leaving the Third Party to tell the tale. Here, by the way, is another argument for the "Third Party". When Dumbledore, Hagrid, and McGonagall have their conversation on the corner of Privet Drive, it's obvious - Dumbledore knows the full details of what's happened - McGonagall doesn't - Dumbledore and Hagrid haven't spoken since the rescue which means that someone else has briefed Dumbledore on what happened. > Conversely Minerva, on her own initiative, arrives at Privet Drive > early in the morning and waits for something to happen. Very strange. > It was term-time (Halloween), but she leaves her teaching duties and > chooses to sit in a cold street for 16 hours or so on the basis of what > she calls rumours, rumours she can only have heard very early that > morning. Just suppose that she's been sent there to protect _Petunia_ from a possible counterstroke by what's left of the DEs. After all, if Harry no longer has any blood relatives, Dumbledore's plans for his upbringing are left looking pretty shaky. This may also be why Hagrid and Harry have disappeared for the day, just in case of a second attempt. Hiding out in a safe location somewhere. > DD, with no teaching duties, disappears from the radar. He's certainly > not at GH, so what was he doing? Where was he? At Hogwarts? But if he He _may_ have been out and about rounding up stray DEs, of course. > time of the news breaking. I sniff forward planning here. That he knew > (or suspected) what might happen to the Potters in advance and made > plans accordingly. But I would, wouldn't I? > It adds credence to my interpretation of the Prophecy. > It's almost as if he's spent the day interviewing witnesses or > debriefing an agent. Now who would that be, I wonder? Would you take the idea of a "Fourth Party", perhaps? The one who forewarned Dumbledore that the attack would be coming? At great personal risk? Cheers Ffred (who is also fascinated by this particular bit of backstory) O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 21:37:36 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:37:36 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103455 >>> Peter Jacobi wrote: > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. > After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: > "I should have known!" <<< Bren now: Hmm. That's too bad that you read the German edition only. Your English seems really good, why don't you try the British edition? As for Crouch!Moody -- after reading PoA I was so upset (for being too surprised at the end) that I made numerous notes along the way reading GoF. But needless to say I failed, again. I recently re-read GoF hoping to catch the missed hints yet no sucess. But I think most of the "clues" happened during the whole World Cup fiasco. Shortly after Dark Mark's appearance after Quidditch game, when everyone was running away, we see Winky running "as though something invisible was holding her back" (paraphrasing). I think this is the biggest clue given in the whole book. And also the strange male voice conjuring the Dark Mark. The rest wasn't strong enough hints, I don't think. Remember how much "new" information we find out from Verisaterium-ed Crouch? We get LOADS of intel, almost half of them about post-QWC. We read through GoF while all those things were happening yet we barely knew what was really happening. Compare that to the Shrieking Shack in PoA, where most of info we find out had to do with past. This could explain why JKR said PoA was the easiet to write, and GoF the hardest (well besides OoP) Bren From s_ings at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:41:22 2004 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:41:22 -0000 Subject: Upcoming Convention Alley Registration Deadlines and Shop CA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103456 Just a reminder that there will be no on-site registration for Convention Alley, the HPfGU sponsored conference for grown-up Harry Potter fans to be held at the University of Ottawa from July 30- August 1, 2004. Online registration paid by credit card will close on July 20th. Payment by check or money order from outside of Canada must be received by July 1st, and Canadian checks/money orders must be received by July 10th. In addition, extra tickets for the birthday banquet featuring keynote speaker Steve Vander Ark on Saturday, July 31st and the luncheon featuring guest speaker Dr. Judith Robertson on Sunday, August 1st are available, but must be purchased by July 1st. Everything you need to know about registering for the conference and/or purchasing banquet/luncheon tickets may be found here: http://www.conventionalley.org/registration.html . Abstracts for the programming sessions have also been uploaded and may be seen here: http://www.conventionalley.org/programming.html . In addition, the Convention Alley planners are pleased to announce the availability of Convention Alley merchandise at Caf? Press. Visit this link to shop for t-shirts and other fun products: http://www.cafeshops.com/conalley . Sheryll Townsend 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:41:40 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:41:40 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: <20040629210842.92380.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > > > Steve wrote: > Can anyone with access to a bookstore in the UK or Canada go in and > look at a recent printing to see what the order is the these most > recent versions? > > Steve/asian_lovr2 > > animallover > > I don't know if you consider this recent enough or not but my version is a hard cover Canadian from 2000 and it is James coming out before Lily. It is Lily who tells Harry to break the connection and what to do to get back to Hogwarts. > > I hope this helps. > > animallover asian_lovr2: 2000 is the year 'Goblet of Fire' was published. That's why I need someone to actually walk into a UK store and look at a recent printing. I need as new a copy as possible to verify that the book has indeed been changed back to 'James then Lily'. Keep in mind that I have never seen a UK edition that said, 'Lily then James', I simple heard that the UK version had been changed to match the US version on this one point. I have also heard rumors that UK hardback and paperback don't match each other depending on which printing they are. Again, just internet small talk, that's is why it would be nice to find UK versions that have the change, and then most recently, that change changed back to the original. Just trying to help. Steve/asian_lovr2 From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 29 21:34:50 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:34:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours - again References: <1088456868.11475.48180.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c45e20$e94b3100$534c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 103458 Jason wrote: > What about those of us who think V got the news from wormtail while > Snape was in the room? Maybe Im the only one? Upon making his exit, > Snape immediately gets word to DD that Voldemort has the potters > info. No, you're not the only one! > You might say that Snape would then know that Peter betrayed the > Potters. Maybe. But would Snape bother to correct them when Sirius > was caught "red handed?" I don't think so. I think this was the one wry bit of pleasure that Snape got from the whole business: out of his four worst enemies, James is dead Peter is believed dead Sirius is in prison, and likely to die too Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 21:49:45 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:49:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009301c45e22$ff13c040$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103459 Bren now: As for Crouch!Moody -- after reading PoA I was so upset (for being too surprised at the end) that I made numerous notes along the way reading GoF. But needless to say I failed, again. I recently re-read GoF hoping to catch the missed hints yet no sucess. But I think most of the "clues" happened during the whole World Cup fiasco. Shortly after Dark Mark's appearance after Quidditch game, when everyone was running away, we see Winky running "as though something invisible was holding her back" (paraphrasing). I think this is the biggest clue given in the whole book. And also the strange male voice conjuring the Dark Mark. The rest wasn't strong enough hints, I don't think. Remember how much "new" information we find out from Verisaterium-ed Crouch? We get LOADS of intel, almost half of them about post-QWC. We read through GoF while all those things were happening yet we barely knew what was really happening. Compare that to the Shrieking Shack in PoA, where most of info we find out had to do with past. This could explain why JKR said PoA was the easiet to write, and GoF the hardest (well besides OoP) Bren Sherry I guessed both outcomes. But here's why, I think. First of all, from the beginning of POA, we are supposed to believe that Sirius Black was an evil wizard out to kill Harry. I didn't buy it. It seemed too obvious. too many mystery novels perhaps? I truly don't know. It just didn't seem right. There had to be a twist, so I just kept thinking it couldn't be true. In GOF, the clue that got me was all the talk about Voldemort's faithful servant being at Hogwarts. I kept trying to remain in denial, because I liked Moody and didn't want it to be him. Also, we'd already had an evil DADA teacher in the first book. But more and more, I started to believe it had to be Moody. karkaroff was too cowardly, Crouch too stuffy, and Bagman, well, hard to describe him, just too self concerned to be anyone's most faithful servant. By the time Moody leads Harry off to the castle after he returns with Cedric's body, I was convinced. Dumbledore had told Harry to stay, and that was the last piece falling into place for me, though I was convinced before. What I didn't guess in advance was the identity of fake Moody. I never guessed he was Barty Crouch Jr.! I was glad to be surprised. I was especially glad he wasn't really Moody! Sherry G From Hines57 at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 21:32:55 2004 From: Hines57 at comcast.net (hines571) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:32:55 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103460 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > I happen to think the HBP is Tom Riddle, but others have made a > good case for different characters. However, as CoS stands right > now, referring to ANY of them as a Half Blood Prince would have > just come across as nonsense. There are too many pieces missing. > I suspect that Rowling didn't want to go so deeply into Tom Riddle's > background that early in the series; as it happens, the next bit > of information we get about his youth comes in GoF, two books later. > I think the next book will focus on some crucial incident(s) in his > formative years, and that will make clear why the title is > appropriate. I do agree that the HBP "probably" appeared in CoS, however I think that all of JKR's comments thus far have supported the fact that it is NOT Tom Riddle. She said that she changed the title by the end of the book because the story's title bore little relationship to the story by the end. I would say that if Tom Riddle was the HBP, the story would've still had an awful lot to do with the title when it was finished. Afterall Riddle is central to that book's plotline. I think that it is however someone who at least appeared in CoS, because on the website JKR is giving us hints to re-read and find the clues "I have said before now that 'Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a LINK." (emphasis mine) I would interpret the "link" to be a person from CoS. Just some speculation :) Ryan S. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:52:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:52:11 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at A... wrote: > In a message dated 6/29/2004 4:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > asian_lovr2 at y... writes: > > > Is there anyone out there in the great Potter world, who can > > produce a 'James then Lily' Scholastic/US version of the book? > > There must be fans out there who have early versions. > Cheryl: > > Mine is a James then Lily version; the Scholastic hardback dated as > copywrite 2000 Scholastic Inc. It's also listed as the First > American edition, July 2000. Pg. 667 has the James appears first, > says "Your mother's coming..." version. > > The Other Cheryl Asian_lovr2: Well, I assume you stand (or sit) book in hand, so that doesn't leave me much room to argue the point. "... Scholastic hardback ... First American edition ... "Your mother's coming..." " That doesn't leave any room for doubt. Thanks for helping me out with that. Although, it goes against what I believed, it does seem to confirm the matter once and for all. I do still see some minor inconsistency in the broader general information, but when you are holding the book in your hand and quoting me the pages, I have to give tremendous weight to that. Thanks agian. Steve/asian_lovr2 From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 21:51:19 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:51:19 -0000 Subject: Riddle the HBP (was Re: HBP MUST have appeared in COS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103462 Wanda: > I don't take her words quite so literally. We're still all debating > what the meaning of "Prince" and "Half-Blood" are here, and rightly > too, because the meaning isn't all that obvious. albusthewhite: Absolutely right. Wanda: > If a lot of > background explanation is required to understand just who is the HBP > and why, then it's quite possible that Rowling felt that such > lengthy explanations didn't belong in Book 2. In that case, > introducing the term wouldn't make much sense, and would just raise > questions that weren't going to be answered for several years. > That's what I think she meant by "bore no relation" - that so much > of the background was missing that the term would not have made any > sense, not that the character himself was completely omitted. I > happen to think the HBP is Tom Riddle, but others have made a good > case for different characters. However, as CoS stands right now, > referring to ANY of them as a Half Blood Prince would have just come > across as nonsense. There are too many pieces missing. I suspect > that Rowling didn't want to go so deeply into Tom Riddle's > background that early in the series; as it happens, the next bit of > information we get about his youth comes in GoF, two books later. I > think the next book will focus on some crucial incident(s) in his > formative years, and that will make clear why the title is > appropriate. albusthewhite: First, let me stress that I was not suggesting that evidence from CoS is inadmissable, just that we shouldn't give it more weight simply because it comes from the book that was formerly known as HBP. You've got to take Jo's words literally, because (most of the time) she's very (VERY) deliberate about how she crafts what she says! Now, let's not get distracted by the immediate conclusions we might jump to, not by any means, but let's include the literal as a possibility. :) You make some really good points about the possibility that HBP refers to Riddle, and I think you may be right, especially when you suggest that we might be introduced to a formative event of Riddle's early life. Let's examine first why Jo decided *not* to stick with HBP as the title for Year 2. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that HBP would refer to Riddle, but readers would not be getting enough background info on him to understand that it refers to him. In CoS, Riddle is questioned by Headmaster Dippet: "'You are Muggle-born?' 'Half-blood, sir," said Riddle. "Muggle father, witch mother.'" (244 USHB) This could absolutely be support for Riddle as HBP. No question there. But it seems to undermine the theory that Jo changed the name because we wouldn't know who it refers to - at least the half-blood part. The 'prince' is another story. Is Riddle a prince because he turns into the Dark Lord? Again, totally makes sense - after all, a prince is often a king (lord) in waiting, right? (Or, as you say, it could refer to a specific incident in Riddle's youth.) So with this in mind, I am absolutely convinced that the HBP is Riddle (who is distinct from Voldemort). The problem for me is the rationale that Jo gives for not naming Year 2 HBP: "The story bore no relation whatsoever to the title." Riddle seems almost too perfect a candidate to be the HBP - the evidence here as well as the red herring then in Jo's statement that the HBP is neither Harry nor LV. But what sticks in my maw is the "no relation" - I just can't get past it. My hypothesis is, taking Jo at her word at every step, she really liked the phraseology "Half Blood Prince", she decided that Year 2 was more about the chamber than Riddle and so changed the name, and now she is reusing the *prase* HBP but not its original signified. Does that make sense or are there big gaping holes? Of course Riddle could be the HBP, maybe is the most likely suspect, but let's not stop theorizing there! albusthewhite who should really be getting back to work now, I mean really... From asperia_aspen_again at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:39:24 2004 From: asperia_aspen_again at yahoo.com (Rebecca) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:39:24 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103463 Bren wrote: > But why did the traitor use VM's wand? It's more powerful? But it's > not his own wand... But the wand chooses the wizard... Dunno, too > many questions... *delurking* I've thought about this. (Please forgive me if anyone else has had the same thoughts and has already in effect posted this message.) Let's suppose that there was at least one extra party, besides Pettigrew, on hand at GH, and let us further suppose that that extra party was on LV's side. It seems to me that JKR has recently as good as told us that Lily died before James died. That part at least looks as though it's been settled, though I'm aware that other people have thought as much before and have turned out to be wrong. Canon depicts James Potter as a fierce contender, and one imagines that he would prove scarcely less fierce in defense of his wife and child. So I assume that while LV is giving Lily the "stand aside silly girl" speech and preparing to kill Harry, James Potter isn't busy fixing snacks in the kitchen--if he's not there defending his wife and his kid it's because he's been disabled/knocked out. Either that, or he's being kept occupied with an ongoing fight elsewhere in the house or in the yard. We know what happens upstairs: LV kills Lily, tries to kill Harry, and gets transformed into Vapomort. Here's what I think happens after the transformation takes place: at the point of the transformation, LV's wand falls to the floor. Voldemort had a substantial physical form and could hold onto a wand, but Vapomort doesn't, and can't. (LV complains about this retrospectively in GoF.) LV's ally, being a DE and bound to LV, feels it when LV is transformed and diminished. James Potter, extraordinary wizard that he is, has put up a stupendous fight. The DE/LV minion who has been battling Potter Senior has gotten the better of him by a bare margin, and possibly through the use of an untoward trick or two, but has done so at the cost of the destruction of his own wand. When LV turns into El Vape and his wand bites the dust, his minion has every reason to try to retrieve it and fast. First, he has no wand of his own. Next, he realizes that something horrible has happened to his master and that every scrap of malign power which can be rescued from the GH wreckage may be needed by his fellow DE's in the future. (We know that there are DE's who've made a habit of collecting LV memorabilia--why would Lucius Malfoy be walking around with Tom Riddle's diary at the beginning of CoS?) So LV's DE servitor and ally, the fifth person on the scene, goes after the dropped wand immediately. Apparates, probably. He zaps himself upstairs, sees the dead Lily and the scarred Harry, refrains from attacking Harry because he deduces (correctly) that Harry has been in some manner responsible for the virtual destruction of his master, and because he realizes that Harry, as an infant, will not be able to identify him after the fact. James, on the other hand, is an adult, and will be able to identify the Fifth Man, so the Fifth Man must destroy him. The Fifth Man goes back downstairs and does so. This leaves us with James dead, Lily dead, the Potter house in ruins, and the scarred Harry waiting to be scooped up by The OOP Cavalry from Hogwarts. El Vape thins out and whines upon the winds. Pettigrew flees. This leaves the unknown DE (who may or may not also have been a member of OOP) holding LV's wand and either preparing to flee himself or waiting for his befooled fellow-members of the OOP to show up. BTW, I don't think this guy *is* a member, past or future, of the OOP. I think he did flee the GH scene along with Pettigrew, though not necessarily in Pettigrew's company. I think this fifth party is a unipolar DE because he's got LV's wand (he's lost his own) and such an aquisition would certainly be noted and commented upon within the OOP ranks. It would be kind of hard to explain. But it would be a perfect accessory for an upwardly-mobile DE. Why do I need five people, not four, to be present at GH? I'd suppose that this extra party to be the same person who ratted out the Potters to LV, because that supposition accounts for the greatest number of known facts with the least amount of fuss, were it not that we already know who betrayed the Potters' hiding place--it was Peter Pettigrew. When Pettigrew killed the Muggles whom he murdered in order to provide him with his cover story, he did not do it with the wand which LV wielded at GH, and which LV later wields during the cemetary scene in GoF. That wand, when subjected to the Priori Incantatem, yields up a record of the deaths it has caused, and the Muggles Pettigrew killed are not among the specters which emerge from it. Pettigrew committed his murders with his own wand. My notion is that James was killed with LV's wand but not by LV himself. Which is likely to provide Harry with still more vengeance work... Sincerely, A. A. A. *relurking* From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 21:59:49 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:59:49 -0000 Subject: Who's in charge, DD or JKR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103464 > Potioncat: > Very good post! We all seem to forget from time to time that > someone really is directing all this. Carin: Thank you! Yes, that's it. Further thoughts: We can and should read the HP books both as mysteries and as novels. In the former case, we take facts within the Potterverse as facts and attempt to draw logical conclusions from them about future and past facts within the 'verse. In the latter case, we interest ourselves in things like the allusive and symbolic structures of the books and the series: similarities, oppositions, balance, patterns of internal reference. Matters of authorial habit and intention are relevant to both kinds of interpretation. The fact that we have a living author who feeds us tidbits between books about her plans (including discarded plans) as well as facts about plot and character, and that we call all of this undifferentiatedly "Canon", means that we need to remind ourselves occasionally about what kind of interpretation we're engaged in at any given moment. Carin From molliespaulding at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 21:24:19 2004 From: molliespaulding at earthlink.net (mollieshka) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:24:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione / Re: Movie PoA forshadows book 6 and 7. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103465 cincimaelder wrote: > Cuaron inadvertantly foreshadowed events from books six and seven > in the latest movie. > Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? Ron and Hermione- definitely. They are meant for each other. I think he foreshadowed their growing relationship, with Harry's complete oblivion to it, possibly a little jealousy. But Ron and Hermione. That's it. "mollieshka" From jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 29 21:54:25 2004 From: jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com (slurdodger) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:54:25 -0000 Subject: The Half Blood Prince (was my favorite HBP picks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103466 Albus the White wrote: > Jo has told us that it is definitely not Harry or Voldemort > - so who is it? Of the above, I like the idea of James Potter being the half-blood Prince best... but my favourite idea so far is Salazar Slytherin. He definitely played a role in CoS, and I can see that the book might have been significantly reduced so that he didn't actually factor in much and we didn't get to know much about him. If he were indeed a half-blood, he (or one of his parents!) must have had some bad experiences with muggles; just like Voldemort did, if he insisted on purebloods only at Hogwarts. It seems as if mudbloods and half-bloods were disliked in those days too, as nowadays there is still plenty of discrimination and we learn that wizards have had to marry muggles to pass on the magic, so to speak. Salazar Slytherin was undoubtedly an incredibly powerful and important wizard too regardless of his unfortunate lineage, so much so he might be touted as "The Halfblood Prince". Finally, it could be argued that Salazar has important ties with both Harry & Voldemort; in that both were considered for Slytherin house and both are Parseltongues. Anything else? -James (who would like to note that Basilisks enjoy Barry White, but not Whacking Day) From shymetaphor at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 21:58:26 2004 From: shymetaphor at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:58:26 -0000 Subject: HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103467 Hey all! This isn't going to be the longest post, but I was just thinking about some of the other half-bloods that may not have been mentioned yet on the posts. Here's the two I came up with: Seamus Finnigan Hagrid I rather like the idea of Hagrid being a half-blood prince (he's half giant rather than half-muggle, though). But Lupin is one of my favorite characters and I wouldn't mind a significant part of Book 6 being dedicated to him, either. What does everyone else think? Btw, does anyone know if Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, other familiar characters are half or full? Laura From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 29 22:07:42 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:07:42 -0000 Subject: HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103468 Laura asked: > > Btw, does anyone know if Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, other > familiar characters are half or full? > Potioncat: Well, I don't know about McGonagall but DD usually seems halfbaked and a lot of folk think Snape is full of....nevermind. Potioncat, slinking away. From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:13:23 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Upcoming Convention Alley Registration Deadlines and Shop CA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629221323.17088.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103469 I'm very sad to say I almost certainly won't make it. My 5th, 6th, and 7th cervical vertabrae all have blown discs - driving, typing, and lying down hurts like hell sometimes, and I've had an MRI and seen the neurosurgeon. Whether I have to have surgery or not, I don't know yet. I'm very disappointed at it. It affects my ability to see the girls, since the 200 mile drive can be rocky. The funny thing about nerve impingement is that you can be in severe pain one minute and almost none a few minutes later. Sheryll, I'm so sorry. I want to have some intelligent HP talk and see my friends, but it certainly doesn't look good. --- Sheryll Townsend wrote: > Just a reminder that there will be no on-site > registration for > Convention Alley, the HPfGU sponsored conference for > grown-up Harry > Potter fans to be held at the University of Ottawa > from July 30- > August 1, 2004. Online registration paid by credit > card will close > on July 20th. Payment by check or money order from > outside of Canada > must be received by July 1st, and Canadian > checks/money orders must > be received by July 10th. > > In addition, extra tickets for the birthday banquet > featuring keynote > speaker Steve Vander Ark on Saturday, July 31st and > the luncheon > featuring guest speaker Dr. Judith Robertson on > Sunday, August 1st > are available, but must be purchased by July 1st. > > Everything you need to know about registering for > the conference > and/or purchasing banquet/luncheon tickets may be > found here: > http://www.conventionalley.org/registration.html . > > Abstracts for the programming sessions have also > been uploaded and > may be seen here: > http://www.conventionalley.org/programming.html . > > In addition, the Convention Alley planners are > pleased to announce > the availability of Convention Alley merchandise at > Caf Press. > Visit this link to shop for t-shirts and other fun > products: > http://www.cafeshops.com/conalley . > > Sheryll Townsend > 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee > > > From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 22:14:04 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:14:04 -0000 Subject: I must be really stupid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103470 Having wasted an entire evening fiddling about with those bricks, I'm going to cravenly beg for help. Every time I get more than four to register, they all disappear and I have to start again. Obviously I'm missing something, but I'm obstinate as well as stupid, so am reluctant to give up. Sylvia ( who realises she has just split an infinitive but doesn't care) From goose1132002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:11:42 2004 From: goose1132002 at yahoo.com (Angela Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629201142.55834.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103471 karenlyall666 wrote: > I'm having problems understanding why everyone seems to have decided > that the 'Half Blood Prince' character must have appeared in Chamber > of Secrets. Wanda Sherratt wrote: > True, but the fact that this was considered as a possible title for > Book 2 argues that someone who could fit the description "Half Blood > Prince" must have been in that book. Rowling changed the title, and > it's possible she took the HBP character out of the book entirely in > order to introduce him later on. I thought that Dumbledore explained the other "half blood prince" at the end of OoP? Longbottom has the same b/d as Harry and he's a "half blood" as well. A friend of mine also brought up the option of the kid Dudley beat up "Evans" might be a relation of Lily and Petunia's. That JK just hasn't brought that to light just yet. ADB From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:09:22 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:09:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron and Hermione / Re: Movie PoA forshadows book 6 and 7. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103472 "mollieshka" wrote: > Ron and Hermione- definitely. They are meant for each other. I > think he foreshadowed their growing relationship, with Harry's > complete oblivion to it, possibly a little jealousy. I do agree that they are meant for each other and that's probably one of the things that was foreshadowed, but didn't the CoS movie and GoF book foreshadow that as well? It doesn't seem like something that would give JK goosebumps. "cincimaelder" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jun 29 22:16:44 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:16:44 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000601c45e1f$e22e51a0$534c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > Would you take the idea of a "Fourth Party", perhaps? The one who forewarned > Dumbledore that the attack would be coming? At great personal risk? > Hum. We seem to be attracting a crowd. Not sure I would, or at least not without some hint in canon. So far we have: Harry (who can't remember much) Voldy (who's not saying much) The 'Third Party' (who's saying nothing) On the outside is DD who 'knows' but keeps his own counsel. I'd always assumed that DD surmised the probability of an attack on the Potters from reading between the lines of the Prophecy. What we don't know is how long the Potters were in hiding - a snippet of info that could be enlightening. Did they suddenly rush off after a recent warning (Snape perhaps?) or had they been in hiding for some time, sort of on general principles? It matters, I think - it affects whatever theory you want to put together. For the time being I'd prefer to keep it simple - the putative Fourth Man can vamp 'till ready in the background until his appearance is necessary to explain the inexplicable. But if you want to posit an alternative.... Kneasy From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 22:21:33 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:21:33 -0000 Subject: Awwww.. Don't be! (Re: I must be really stupid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103474 >>> Sylvia wrote: > Having wasted an entire evening fiddling about with those bricks, I'm > going to cravenly beg for help. Every time I get more than four to > register, they all disappear and I have to start again. Obviously > I'm missing something, but I'm obstinate as well as stupid, so am > reluctant to give up. <<< Bren now: Aww, sorry about that... YEah, it gave everyone some trouble, I think, hehe. But why would you wanna give up after trying so hard? ;P Why they all disappear every time you get more than four to register? --> Because there are 5 brick sequence to open it. If you have clicked on the entire wall (as I'm sure you have like tons of times) you will see 5 bricks that turn brown/black. Naming the bricks 1 2 3 4 5 from the top --> if you try the 3 4 2 5 1 permutation then the wall slides down and the room opens. Hope this helps!!! Bren From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 22:12:07 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:12:07 -0000 Subject: The Half Blood Prince -- Salazar Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103475 James wrote: > > He definitely played a role in CoS, and I can see that the book might > have been significantly reduced so that he didn't actually factor in > much and we didn't get to know much about him. Slytherin > was undoubtedly an incredibly powerful and important wizard too > regardless of his unfortunate lineage, so much so he might be touted as > "The Halfblood Prince". Finally, it could be argued that Salazar has > important ties with both Harry & Voldemort; in that both were considered > for Slytherin house and both are Parseltongues. Nice! Salazar fits all the requirements, I think you make a great argument for him! There is a lot of reflection of one generation in another in the Potterverse, so a similar but larger-scale reflection of past to present makes sense. albusthewhite ("I love the sexy slither of a female snake") From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:20:11 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:20:11 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... (Mad Eye) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103476 Peter Jacobi wrote: > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. > After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: > "I should have known!" There were quite a few clues that pointed to Moody, and that he wasn't the real Moody, but they were subtle enough that you would assume it was just apart of his "always suspect everyone" attitude. The first clue JK gave to the readers came early on in the book, right before start of term. Moody was attacked. We assumed that Mad Eye was just seeing things, but we found out he was really attacked by LV. The second clue appears when Harry tried to discover the mystery behind the egg. After he left the prefect bathroom, he noticed Crouch was in Snape's office. After Snape and Moody finished argueing, Moody asked who he saw on the map. The conversation following that question was very strange, as well, where Moody went on to talk about Crouch and how he feels about Dark Wizards. Third clue comes when Krum got attacked. Did you ever think it was weird how Moody got there so quick? The man has a wooden leg, it's really unlikely he got to the edge of the Forbidden Forest seconds after Harry and DD when they ran there. These clues point to Moody, but there are a lot more in the book like Winky at the Quidditch World Cup, Moody knowing how Harry got picked by the goblet of fire (He was of course the only to suggest that someone had tricked the cup to thinking there were 4 schools, how else would there be 4 tri-wizards). Luke From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 22:30:53 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:30:53 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: <009301c45e22$ff13c040$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103477 >>> Sherry wrote: > > I guessed both outcomes. But here's why, I think. First of all, from the > beginning of POA, we are supposed to believe that Sirius Black was an evil > wizard out to kill Harry. I didn't buy it. It seemed too obvious. too > many mystery novels perhaps? I truly don't know. It just didn't seem > right. There had to be a twist, so I just kept thinking it couldn't be > true. > > In GOF, the clue that got me was all the talk about Voldemort's faithful > servant being at Hogwarts. I kept trying to remain in denial, because I > liked Moody and didn't want it to be him. Also, we'd already had an evil > DADA teacher in the first book. But more and more, I started to believe it > had to be Moody. karkaroff was too cowardly, Crouch too stuffy, and Bagman, > well, hard to describe him, just too self concerned to be anyone's most > faithful servant. By the time Moody leads Harry off to the castle after he > returns with Cedric's body, I was convinced. Dumbledore had told Harry to > stay, and that was the last piece falling into place for me, though I was > convinced before. What I didn't guess in advance was the identity of fake > Moody. I never guessed he was Barty Crouch Jr.! I was glad to be > surprised. I was especially glad he wasn't really Moody! Bren now: Hehe, good for you!! I usually stay absolutely clueless during the reading and once I find out everything then I start making up conspiracty theories. Lol. I didn't suspect Moody because DD trusted him in GoF, and he was the best Auror the Ministry ever had, I just didn't think to suspect him. Now I know "Dumbledore trusts him" can't be the final statement on some fishy characters. I wonder if *anyone* guessed Crouch was alive and impersonating Moody?? Bren From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 22:37:51 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:37:51 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103478 Hi everyone, In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book 6, "The Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, etc etc... I thought it was time for a fresh and new FUN post!! So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them. "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. Bren From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:40:16 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:40:16 -0000 Subject: I must be really stupid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Having wasted an entire evening fiddling about with those bricks, I'm > going to cravenly beg for help. Every time I get more than four to > register, they all disappear and I have to start again. Obviously > I'm missing something, but I'm obstinate as well as stupid, so am > reluctant to give up. > > Sylvia ( who realises she has just split an infinitive but doesn't > care) I have taken pity on you :P You can find the right bricks at that link :) *************SPOILER********************** http://home.comcast.net/~jasonjacqui/doorbricks.jpg Jacqui From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 22:49:30 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:49:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00b101c45e2b$57833dc0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103480 Bren Hi everyone, In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book 6, "The Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, etc etc... I thought it was time for a fresh and new FUN post!! So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them. "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. Sherry One of mine is from POA, chapter 19. Right after Wormtail becomes a man. ""Well, hello, peter," said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him," LOL. don't know why, but that one always makes me laugh. I'll have to browse for others, because there are such great ones. Mr. Weasley's comments about collecting plugs and batteries always gets me, too. I like the humorous lines. Sherry G From goose1132002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 20:07:58 2004 From: goose1132002 at yahoo.com (Angela Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629200758.55346.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103481 a wrote: > Okay, so when Voldie possesses Harry in the end of OotP, and Harry > thinks of Sirius, the warm, squishy feelings drive our friend Voldie > out of Harry. But imagine if Harry were to somehow find in > his heart *pity* or some kind of compassion/forgiveness for Voldie... > if he could find it in himself to forgive Voldemort, I really > think it would destroy Voldie. And it plays into the whole deal with > Harry having the power that Voldie has not, blah, blah... Actually, this sounds like a viable idea. It was afterall Harry's "love" that repelled him when Voldey possessed him during the fight at the end of OoP. Very plausible in my mind. I'm not so patiently waiting for book 6 to come out. LOL ADB From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 22:52:40 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:52:40 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103482 I wrote: > In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book 6, "The > Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk > and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't > think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, > etc etc... OHHHHHHHH... WAHAHAHAHAH. I just realized what "The Truth" was... Hahahahh! Me so silly! Duh!! Bren, who still can't believe she thought "The Truth" was the title. Shame away... From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:57:28 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:57:28 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > Hi everyone, > > In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book 6, "The > Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk > and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't > think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, > etc etc... > > I thought it was time for a fresh and new FUN post!! > > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll > be fun to make a list of them. > > > "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. > > > Bren "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground." I have always been kind of fond of that one :) Jacqui From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 22:59:30 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:59:30 -0000 Subject: I must be really stupid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103484 Many thanks, Jacqui and Brenda.Finally got the bricks in the right order. I don't look on it as cheating, so much as accepting help from kind friends who are better at this kind of puzzle than I am!!(which probably includes nearly everyone on the list.) Bythe way, can anyone else hear muffled voices when you press certain bricks, or am I turning into Luna? Sylvia (who can think of worse fates - sorry Kneasy) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 23:00:52 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:00:52 -0000 Subject: James+Lily=CONFUSION (WAS: Death to James in Two Variations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103485 "Steve" wrote: Well, as difficult and confusing as it is, and as much as I don't want to believe it, it seems that I have become the advocate for James being killed after Lily. Bookworm: Don't settle in to your theory too quickly... JKR has changed it AGAIN! Now the webpage reads: "Lily first, then James." http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 Is she doing this on purpose to drive us crazy? Ravenclaw Bookworm From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Jun 29 23:01:27 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:01:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? References: Message-ID: <00c801c45e2d$02b82ba0$c690253e@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 103486 BRenda M wrote_: So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them. Me (FRidwulfa) Mine is from the first book. PS/SS Chapter 1. ANd of course, it's DUmbledore speaking. I really like Dumbledore's sense of humor. Here is the line: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:11:12 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:11:12 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: >> So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll > be fun to make a list of them. > > > "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. > > > Bren "I solemnly swear I am up to no good." PoA Alora ;) From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 23:16:09 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:16:09 -0000 Subject: James+Lily=CONFUSION (WAS: Death to James in Two Variations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103488 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Duh. Those voices you hear when you move the bricks is actually a remix of JKR laughing her a** off. But seriously, it's pretty obvious that our Miss Rowling has a slightly acid sense of humor, and she has all but said outright that we're all out of her minds for the obsessive-compulsive wordmeal nitpicking we do. She's found the perfect monkey puzzle to keep us from bugging her about when Book VI is coming out. --JDR From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:18:24 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:18:24 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > Hi everyone, > > In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book 6, "The > Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk > and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't > think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, > etc etc... > > I thought it was time for a fresh and new FUN post!! > > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll > be fun to make a list of them. > > > "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. > > > Bren Oh man alive, I can only pick one? Well, anything Fred and George and Ron say is pretty much priceless, but my favorite line in the whole series would probably have to be "Choo' fall over for?" (Stan Shunpike from PoA). I have absolutely no idea why this is my fave, but I thought Lee Ingleby did a perfect rendition of this in the film. Or else there's "Are you quite sure I couldn't offer you a cough drop, Delores?" (McGonogall from OotP). Meri From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jun 29 23:20:52 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:20:52 -0000 Subject: Riddle the HBP (was Re: HBP MUST have appeared in COS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "albusthewhite" wrote: My hypothesis is, taking Jo at her word at every step, she > really liked the phraseology "Half Blood Prince", she decided that Year 2 was more about > the chamber than Riddle and so changed the name, and now she is reusing the *prase* > HBP but not its original signified. Does that make sense or are there big gaping holes? Of > course Riddle could be the HBP, maybe is the most likely suspect, but let's not stop > theorizing there! That could be the solution - perhaps the term is now better applied to some unknown person who will appear in Book 6, it's quite possible. I think her reason for changing the title was probably just as you suggest: however she may have intended the story to go at the beginning, by the time it was written it was less about Harry and this other character than about Harry and the mystery of the Chamber. Even if the HBP *was* Tom Riddle, I don't feel that the book was really primarily "about" him. I guess this raises the question of what is the "purpose" of a book title, after all? I don't think in Rowling's case she titles her books to deceive her readers; so far, the titles have been pretty accurate indications of the focus of the story. The last one maybe not quite as completely as the others, as the Order of the Phoenix tended to appear a bit fitfully throughout the book, but I think its mysterious activities and mission were a persistent theme. I guess I tend to think that, in order to rate a mention in the title, the thing or person has to be nearly as important as Harry himself, and have some crucial function in the story. Tom Riddle in CoS is important, but I don't think he would rank right up there as an overarching theme. Wanda From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:22:30 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:22:30 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: > Steph: > So if "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" had no relation what > so ever to COS in the end...why are we still contemplating Tom > Riddle? I must say though...I was apalled by the thought of Tom > Riddle being the Half Blood prince....but many of you have atleast > caused me to rethink things...I still don't think it's him, though... > Do you think it's possible that it's not a LIVE person...but a diary > that lets Harry and the others in on past happenings?...in a > truthful way of course. The diary itslef was a major part of > COS...so maybe we're thinking in the wrong direction.... What about Hagrid? He was a major part of CoS, he's a half-blood, and we don't know where his mother stood in giant society. In the OotP Threads a few weeks back people were complaining about why the giants were even included. Could Hagrid the Giant Prince...er, Price Giant have anything to do with that? Meri, speculating... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:27:37 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:27:37 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter_jacobi.rm" wrote: snip > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. > After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: > "I should have known!" > > Regards, > Peter Jacobi What about the scene where Harry is stuck in the staircase and he tells Crouch!Moody about the Marauders Map (which never ever lies) showing Barty Crouch investigating Snape's office (and probably stealing ingredients for Polyjuice potion). I mean JKR told us right there who he was! I think the big red flag should have gone up after he borrowed the map from Harry, in order to prevent Harry from seeing his true identity on the map, not that Harry would have understood or anything. Meri From rzl46 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:29:21 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:29:21 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book > 6, "The > > Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood-Prince talk > > and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- I don't > > think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy theories, > > etc etc... > > > > I thought it was time for a fresh and new FUN post!! > > > > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think > it'll > > be fun to make a list of them. > > > > > > "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. > > > > > > Bren > > Oh man alive, I can only pick one? Well, anything Fred and George > and Ron say is pretty much priceless, but my favorite line in the > whole series would probably have to be "Choo' fall over for?" (Stan > Shunpike from PoA). I have absolutely no idea why this is my fave, > but I thought Lee Ingleby did a perfect rendition of this in the > film. Or else there's "Are you quite sure I couldn't offer you a > cough drop, Delores?" (McGonogall from OotP). > > Meri I think my favorite line is when McGonogall tells Peeves that it unscrews the other way. MaggieB From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:30:04 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:30:04 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103494 Brenda starts fun new post: >So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them.< favorite "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. favorite ""Well, hello, peter," said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him," < Jacqui> favorite "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground." < Fridwulfa> favorite "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." < Alora ;)> favorite "I solemnly swear I am up to no good." PoA favorite "I s'pose Lord Voldemort's just a warm-up act compared to you three" Harry Potter,OOP This was a good idea Brenda! Hope you don't mind me organizing the posts this way. Snow From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 23:44:25 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:44:25 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103495 Kneasy What we don't know is how long the Potters were in hiding - a snippet of info that could be enlightening. Did they suddenly rush off after a recent warning (Snape perhaps?) or had they been in hiding for some time, sort of on general principles? It matters, I think - it affects whatever theory you want to put together. Bookworm: IIRC, Fudge said something during the conversation in Hogsmeade, either stated or implied, that the Potters had only been in hiding a week or two. Sorry I can't check it myself ? my daughter took the book with her on vacation half-way across the country. Can anyone else verify it? Ravenclaw Bookworm From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 23:50:39 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:50:39 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103496 >>> Snow wrote: > This was a good idea Brenda! Hope you don't mind me organizing the > posts this way. <<< Bren now: Thanks thanks!! It IS so much fun, I agree, this thread should be kept in records, lol. So I'll organize all of them in a Word Document file and ask one of the Elves to post it under "Files" or soemthing. Savvy?? ;P I'd like to set some rules though, as if there aren't enough of them already... (Sorry guys, just want to make it easier!) ----------------------------------------------------- PLEASE... : (1) State which BOOK (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is fine as well ;P Note: * NO need for Page Number! I'm sure most of us will recognize the lines once we see them. * Feel free to post UP TO 3 favorite lines, as sometimes it's simply _impossible_ to have just one!! Thank you for your cooperation!! Bren, who thinks she sounds like an Elf ;P From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jun 29 23:56:30 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:56:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? References: Message-ID: <002601c45e34$b32fc860$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103497 > > > > "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground." I have always been kind of fond of that one :) Jacqui Me (FRidwulfa) Mine is from the first book. PS/SS Chapter 1. ANd of course, it's DUmbledore speaking. I really like Dumbledore's sense of humor. Here is the line: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." > "I solemnly swear I am up to no good." PoA > > Alora ;) Alina: I can't choose between two: "It unscrews the other way." and "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced in front of him wearing Doby's tea cozy." From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 30 00:00:15 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:00:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] All-Time Favorite HP Lines References: Message-ID: <003701c45e35$39b298e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103498 > PLEASE... : > > (1) State which BOOK > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is fine > as well ;P > Erm, sorry, in that case: Alina's favourite, said by Ron in Goblet Of Fire. "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced in front of him wearing Dobby's tea cozy." From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 00:08:14 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:08:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d701c45e36$57247af0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103499 Snow wrote: > This was a good idea Brenda! Hope you don't mind me organizing the > posts this way. <<< Bren now: Thanks thanks!! It IS so much fun, I agree, this thread should be kept in records, lol. So I'll organize all of them in a Word Document file and ask one of the Elves to post it under "Files" or soemthing. Savvy?? ;P Here's another one from Sherry. I alluded to it in my first post, but I just found the quote. >From Goblet of Fire, Chapter Four, Back to the Burrow Mr. Weasley is speaking. "They run off eckeltricity do they?" he said knowledgeably, "Ah yes, I can see the plugs. I collect plugs," he added to Uncle Vernon. "And batteries. Got a large collection of batteries. My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are." Sherry G By the way, Bren, I love your idea of compiling them all into a word document. Could you send it to people? The yahoo site is a pain to navigate around with screen reading software, so I don't go visit the group's site, unless I really have to. Love this thread! Sherry G From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jun 30 00:21:03 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:21:03 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103500 > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll > be fun to make a list of them. Moody in GoF (about the Avada Kedavra curse): "Not nice," he said calmly. "Not pleasant. And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one known person has ever survived it, and he's sitting right in front of me." Joj, who hopes that line is in the movie exactly like that. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 00:21:15 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:21:15 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103501 Since someone else mentioned the lightbulb joke, I'll contribute: "Because I want to fix that in my memory forever....Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret..." (OOP, Ch13) Ravenclaw Bookworm From kawfhw at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 00:21:14 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:21:14 -0400 Subject: Class Reunion (just for fun) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103502 I've heard JKR say that seven books is all she will write. Seems like there will be so much more to tell. So many interesting things seem to happen in the wizarding world - things change, new baddies emerge. Just for fun - if Harry's class had a class reunion ten years after leaving Hogwarts - where do you think everyone will be/what will they be doing - students and teachers... Faith __________ STOTTLEMEYER: I thought you were afraid of heights. MONK: Snakes trump heights. It goes, germs, needles, milk, death, snakes, mushrooms, heights, crowds, elevators... STOTTLEMEYER: Okay, Okay. I don't need the entire list. Monk, Mr. Monk and the Very, Very Old Man From jodel at aol.com Wed Jun 30 00:26:51 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:26:51 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000601c45e1f$e22e51a0$534c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103503 My own take on this is that the attack may have taken place at any time after dark on Halloween night 1980. It certainly didn't need to be near to midnight, although it was probably around bedtime. This adds a couple of extra hours to the lead time before 8:30 the following morning when Vernon Dursley left for work. The Potters' house must have been at least somewhat remote from the village or the Muggle response to the explosion would have been much more immediate, and we know that there was certainly time for both Sirius and Hagrid to show up and depart without being seen by anyone else, magical or Muggle, and Hagrid, at least is highly noticable. Particularly on a noisy motorcycle. I also think that IF Dumbledore didn't simply have the Potter house under some form of magical survelance, then he was informed of the event by Snape, who, if called to a DE meeting had returned to report the attack, or if in the Castle, had suddenly felt his Dark Mark dissapear. Either of these would have been enough to sent the alert that *something* was up. Ergo, Dumbledore knew that something had happened almost as soon as it took place. He would have reported this to the Ministry either immediately, or after sending Hagrid by portkey to view the scene and to rescue any survivors. So far, events are fairly self-evident. At this point, however, everything goes vague. Because everything Hagrid has been heard to say -- either at the time or 12 years later in the 3 Broomsticks -- supports the reading that Dumbledore sent him *with orders* to get Harry out of the house and take him straight to his aunt and uncle in Little Whingeing. Do not pass "GO" do not collect 200 galleions. And, do you know, I'm comming round to the viewpoint that, just maybe, he did *exactly* that. After all, the DoM *has* a bureau of "Time Management" doesn't it? And we've never seen that peculiar "watch" of Dumbledore's again, have we? You know. The one with 12 hands, no numbers and little planets moving around the edge. Are you now so sure that was really a watch? Because if what we saw was a Ministry-approved act of time adjustment, then all bets are off. Something happened during the first day after Voldemort's defeat that was major enough for the Ministry to be unwilling to accept the ramifications and possible consequences to the WW itself. And (quite possibly) to insist that Harry Potter be removed from the ww to ensure that nothing like that would be likely to happen again, until he was old enough for Hogwarts where he would be 1. safe, and 2. under observation. I go into more detail on this matter in the essay I posted up at the Red Hen site, but, in summary; if something like this took place, then whatever too place (regarding Harry) in those 24 hours need not consern us further, and we are never going to be told of the details, anyway. Because, it didn't happen. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 30 00:29:34 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:29:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: <40E13B33.17773.47321D@localhost> References: <40E13B33.17773.47321D@localhost> Message-ID: <40E2096E.8080109@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103504 Shaun Hately wrote: > But for your amusement. The teaching philosophy of a real life > Snape: > > "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely effective teacher. What I > am not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how to turn obnoxious > adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined culture of 25 centuries. > Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without making a few boys cry. Tough. > They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, they'll be better for it." That's my kind of teacher. :-) Shaun, just so you don't feel like nobody hears you: I had a teacher just like this, and I much appreciate it now. And we exchange friendly emails from time to time. Irene From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 00:31:54 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:31:54 -0000 Subject: Guardian article Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103505 I got a kick out of seeing how many mistakes the Guardian made about JKR and the books. The writer, Sarah Crown, said "a fan posted a message" on her website (don't we wish), then said that HP/HBP "had at one point been a contender for the title of the fourth volume in the series (now Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets)." I thought the Guardian was supposed to be an upper crust newspaper? Or is Harry too *common* for them to bother with? http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1250169,00.html Ravenclaw Bookworm From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 00:37:07 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:37:07 -0000 Subject: JAMES HBP and Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103506 Albus The White wrote: > > James - Does the title character have to be living? Does the HBP > > have to exist in the "now" of the story, or could it be a piece of > > history or myth that figures into the story of book 6 somehow? Do > > we know anything about James's ancestry? AF responded: > Now about James....it could possibly explain how Harry got all that > money....AND we know James' opinions on Mudbloods/half bloods, etc... I (Laurasia reply): Ahh! You've beaten me to it! The money quote is from an AOL chat: "What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later." If James is a Prince it's easy to see how he could inherit money. There's been speculation that being the Heir of Slytherin makes you a Prince (if HBP was Tom Riddle), but what if James is the Heir of Gryffindor? >From JKRowling.com: "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets', but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information's proper home was book six. " This sounds like the information was backstory/history that Harry was to discover. The truth about his parents certainly fits this. It's also easy to see "the LINK" between this new information and CoS- Riddle as Heir of Slytherin and Harry as Heir of Gryffindor. Harry pulls out Gryffindor's sword from the Hat. Perhaps in the original drafts the story was focused more on Harry discovering things about his own life, rather than solely discovering things about Voldemort's past. Clearly "the LINK" between Harry and Voldemort- how very similar they are, is a key theme in CoS. I think James as HBP is far more likely than Justin or Colin. I'm betting it's either James or Tom Riddle. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 30 00:45:24 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103507 In a message dated 6/29/2004 6:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > That doesn't leave any room for doubt. > > Thanks for helping me out with that. Although, it goes against what I > believed, it does seem to confirm the matter once and for all. > > I do still see some minor inconsistency in the broader general > information, but when you are holding the book in your hand and > quoting me the pages, I have to give tremendous weight to that. > > Thanks agian. Glad to help...though I'm beginning to work on a theory that both are true and someone's been mucking around with those dratted time-turners again. Are we SURE no one's given Lockhart a TT? [snicker] The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Wed Jun 30 00:54:38 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:54:38 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Half_Blood_Prince_(was_my_favorite_HBP_picks=85)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103508 So far Rowling's book titles have been *extremely* literal. Which poses a problem in that a title like "Prince" is dependent upon a specific relationship with a *Muggle* government. And, btw, it could always be a government that *no longer exists*. Quite a few continental duchys and principalities have dissapeared in the past couple hundred years, while the various Ministries of Magic haven't redrawn their political boundaries since the Act of Separation. (Oh ghod, please, no! Not "Harry Potter and the Stuart Pretender") Because this really is a worthy puzzle. For one thing, whoever it is will be at Hogwarts (the new DADA instructor maybe?) since I don't think she is going to give us two books in a row where the main event is offstage for the whole year. For another thing, if it follows the pattern, is will not only be literal, it will be a *whole new element* added to the mix and it will have effects that spill over into everything that comes after. Theories that are tied to existing characters will probably not be it, although those might get thrown in as red herrings to confuse the issue of what actually *is* going on. Plus there is always the question of how much leeway *can* be applied to something what if it follows the patern will have a very literal application? Can the term "halfblood" possibly be interpreted as half-*breed*? That particular theme has cewrtainly been introduced to the series and I doubt that Rowling is completely finished with it.And we have yet to hear anything directly regarding one very critical segment of the magical population. Which raises the question; do the Goblins have a king? From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Wed Jun 30 01:02:10 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:02:10 -0000 Subject: Two online articles (Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103509 Steve, regarding those scans in the files section, I *don't* know if the 'corrected' version is of the Bloomsbury edition or not; the first scan (that says Bloomsbury) was done by Flying Ford Anglia (Neil), who is in the UK and the other was uploaded by Jim Flanagan (US). So, don't know if someone else scanned the second and Jim just uploaded it, or if he scanned it himself (if he did, likely it was a US version). Both US and UK versions did change to the 'corrected' version by then, though, I believe. Steve: > 2000 is the year 'Goblet of Fire' was published. That's why I need > someone to actually walk into a UK store and look at a recent > printing. I need as new a copy as possible to verify that the book > has indeed been changed back to 'James then Lily'. >>> Here are two articles about the wand order 'mistake'; the first is from right after GoF came out (July '00): http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/07/24/potter.salon/ And the second is from about six months later (Jan '01) about the 'correction' (and quotes our former List Mum Penny Linsenmayer! ): http://www.cnn.com/2001/books/news/01/12/salon.potter/ (Wow, it was something reading these again!) > Keep in mind that I have never seen a UK edition that said, 'Lily > then James', I simple heard that the UK version had been changed to > match the US version on this one point. I have also heard rumors > that UK hardback and paperback don't match each other depending on > which printing they are. >>> Fwiw, I have the first Scholastic US hardcover that "The Other Cheryl" (heh!) has, exactly the same, James then Lily. My US paperback of GoF (Sept '02) has the 'corrected' order, Lily then James, as does my UK paperback (20th printing, it looks like). > Again, just internet small talk, that's is why it would be nice to > find UK versions that have the change, and then most recently, that > change changed back to the original. >>> Yeah, I remember this too; am pretty sure it's discussed here in this group, somewhere back in the archives. I'm a bit more vague on this, but you're right, afaik, there *was* something about later UK editions reverting back to the 'incorrect' (first) order (James then Lily). I'll try to see if I can turn something up on it... --Kelley From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:04:54 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:04:54 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103510 -Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professer Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business. -Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony and would like to add that Professer Snape is an ugly git. -Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professer. -Mr. Wormtail bids Professer Snape good day, and advises him to wash his hair, the slime ball. - The Marauders Map -Prisoner of Azkaban Jacqui From neil.chrissie at tesco.net Tue Jun 29 22:53:42 2004 From: neil.chrissie at tesco.net (causley_cottage) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:53:42 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103511 A few theories Almost a wild guess, but I'm going for Dudley Dursley. A couple of reasons. Other than the royal connotation, a prince is a pampered and spoilt little boy. Dudley certainly fits the bill there. I don't think Petunia Dursley is as pure muggleish as she makes out. Her explanation for knowing about the dementors was highly unconvincing. This is the real longshot could her and Lily possibly be related to moaning Myrtle? The highly tenuous links are that they are both muggleborn and all 3 of them have floral names. Could Lily and Petunias mother/ father have been a half-blood squib and cousin of myrtle or something? Not exactly convincing, but I did say it was a longshot. Another possibility is Mark Evans, who if 10 at the beginning of OOP would be just right to start at Hogwarts at the beginning of HBP if he does indeed turn out to be a wizard. As it was an alternative title for COS, but JKR didn't want to include the associated information at that point in the series, it could well be that the HBP is a character introduced in that book, in which case I would put my money, either on Colin Creevey, or Justin Finch-Fletchley who certainly sounded upper class. Just some thoughts. "causley_cottage" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:07:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:07:56 -0000 Subject: Where THAT List of favourite characters is. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103512 --- snip > Potioncat: > Alla, if I promise to defend Sirius against Kneasy's bashing will > you tell me where that list is? > > > ESE!Potioncat (who really does want to know.) Alla: LOLOL! Only for ESE!Potioncat :) "Who is your favorite character? A. I love, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, and Professor Lupin. " Scholastic, February 2000. Chat From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 22:53:57 2004 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:53:57 -0000 Subject: The Half Blood Prince (was my favorite HBP picks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103513 James wrote: > I like the idea of James Potter being the half-blood > Prince best... but my favourite idea so far is Salazar Slytherin. While I think that Salazar is probably my favorite candidate too, while I was thinking of him, I could not help but also think of Godric Gryffindor. He definitely played a role in CoS, and the whole bit with the sword is just kind of hanging out there, without any real explanation to the real history behind it or anything. There was room for more about him. I can definitely expect some of the "crucial pieces of information" that were originally going to be in book 2 to concern GG. As for when he's the eponymous character of the book, however, I am a great deal less than certain. :) Ernest From rosindisguise at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 23:16:39 2004 From: rosindisguise at yahoo.co.uk (rosindisguise) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: <00c801c45e2d$02b82ba0$c690253e@portatil> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103514 Bren wrote: > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think > it'll be fun to make a list of them. "Don't let the muggles get you down" It's Ron's line, of course. It has become a motto for me. It's on my screensaver at work. ;) Ros From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:10:15 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:10:15 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103515 Steve, shouldn't the U.S. editions if they were revised at some point have something stating about the revision on the copyright page? This may not be relevant but my 2002 paperback copy has a paragraph on the copyright page that I thought was unusual, it says: "If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this book is stolen property. It was reported as "unsold and destroyed" to the publisher, and neither the author nor the publisher has received any payment for this "stripped book." I thought it was an interesting statement. Snow From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 23:33:26 2004 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:33:26 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103516 "Steve" wrote: > Well, I assume you stand (or sit) book in hand, so that doesn't > leave me much room to argue the point. > > "... Scholastic hardback ... First American edition ... "Your > mother's coming..." " > > That doesn't leave any room for doubt. For what it's worth my 1st edition, American hardcover copy of the book has Lily then James with "You father's coming..." on pg. 667. I assume that The Other Cheryl simply has an earlier printing than I do. I mention this soley for completeness. :) Ernest From sarah.derr at thomson.com Tue Jun 29 23:36:07 2004 From: sarah.derr at thomson.com (harvey4221) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:36:07 -0000 Subject: Theory the HBP Gordric Gryffindor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103517 My theory for the identity of the half blood price is that the half blood prince is the it is Gordric Gryffindor. It would tie up some loose ends from Chamber of Secrets nicely. We know that Salazar Slytherin and Gordric Gryffindor had a falling out over the type students admitted to Hogwarts. Slytherin wants only pure blood and is strongly opposed Gryffindor and leaves. But why Gryffindor more than the other founders? Maybe because Griffindor is a half blood. As we all know from the COS the heir of Slytherin is Voldemort. That's why he can open the Chamber. Harry defeats the basilic by pulling the sword of Gordic Gryffindor from the sorting hat. Dumbledore tells Harry it is because he is a true Gryffindor. This has always bothered me from COS. I am fairly certain that not just any student from Gryffindor house could pull that sword out of the hat. There is more to that story. But if Harry is related to Gryffindor (a true Gryffindor) There is a lot pointing to that in the books. Harry is born in Gordric hollow (named for Gryffindor). Harry not Neville is the marked by Lord Voldemort. It is continuation of the original rivalry or split in the Wizarding world. Just a theory but I like it - I think it has a lot of symmetry. "harvey4221" From jahibe at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 23:47:58 2004 From: jahibe at earthlink.net (janetb) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:47:58 -0400 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? References: Message-ID: <003b01c45e33$8e78f010$31289518@janet> No: HPFGUIDX 103518 Brenda starts fun new post: >So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them.< favorite "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. favorite ""Well, hello, peter," said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him," favorite "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that is a perfect map of the London Underground." favorite "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." < Alora ;)> favorite "I solemnly swear I am up to no good." PoA favorite "I s'pose Lord Voldemort's just a warm-up act compared to you three" Harry Potter,OOP I can't believe none of the Snape lovers have mentioned this one yet: "There will be no foolish wand-waving or silly incantations in this class." Of course, the rest of the speech (book and film versions) is just so deliciously great too. Jahibe (who's used to writing without capital letters and man, this complying with the rules is really weird. ;-)) From ariana at astele.co.uk Tue Jun 29 23:49:33 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:49:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James+Lily=CONFUSION (WAS: Death to James in Two Variations) References: Message-ID: <022e01c45e33$be637a70$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103519 Bookworm: > Don't settle in to your theory too quickly... JKR has changed it > AGAIN! > > Now the webpage reads: "Lily first, then James." > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 > > Is she doing this on purpose to drive us crazy? Ariana: I wonder if they'll film two versions of the scene this summer in case she changes her mind again! :) Ariana Currently wading through the speculation on the Half Blood Prince. Only 300 posts to go... From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 30 01:14:42 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:14:42 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E2A0A2.4482.B98C1C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103520 On 30 Jun 2004 at 1:10, snow15145 wrote: > Steve, shouldn't the U.S. editions if they were revised at some point > have something stating about the revision on the copyright page? > > This may not be relevant but my 2002 paperback copy has a paragraph > on the copyright page that I thought was unusual, it says: > > "If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that > this book is stolen property. It was reported as "unsold and > destroyed" to the publisher, and neither the author nor the publisher > has received any payment for this "stripped book." > > I thought it was an interesting statement. It's actually quite a common statement to have in American paperbacks. I just grabbed five random paperbacks off my bookshelf and two of them contain it. The two that were published in America. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jonathan at techtobiz.com Wed Jun 30 00:14:19 2004 From: jonathan at techtobiz.com (Jonathan House) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:14:19 -0600 Subject: Speculations on HBP (Hagrid, Godric Gryffindor) References: <1088553413.14347.86123.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002601c45e37$33b8ae50$6500a8c0@Viking> No: HPFGUIDX 103521 Laura stated: >I rather like the idea of Hagrid being a half-blood prince (he's >half giant rather than half-muggle, though). I've been following some of the speculation recently, and also like the idea of Hagrid being the HBP. After all, he is a half-blood, and does play a significant role in CoS. So I'm putting 50% of my vote behind Hagrid. The other 50% I'm saving for someone that I haven't seen mentioned yet (I may have missed it). What about Godric Griffindor? He's definitely a force in the series (sword in CoS), and I think the time might be ripe for him to "make an appearance", so to speak. We don't know anything about GG's parentage, so he could very well be a half-blood. The other factor that I find interesting is the fact that royalty has yet to make an appearance in the HP books (going off of memory here) with the exception of the "Lord" title for LV. Lord is a lower designation than king (I don't remember the exact progressions), so I don't think that the "prince" title applies to Tom Riddle as an indication of his later status as a "Lord". Given all of the GG references in the series to date, you know he has to have a presence sometime. I'm thinking it is in book 6. I just hope it is coming out soon. I've about worn out my existing HP books from re-reading them... Jonathan From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 30 00:23:27 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:23:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie PoA forshadows book 6 and 7. References: Message-ID: <023201c45e38$76da8b30$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103522 From: "cincimaelder" > JK Rowling says that Prisoner of Azkaban director Alfonso Cuaron > inadvertantly foreshadowed events from books six and seven in the > latest movie. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those > things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and > think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling said. > > Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? Ariana: Some things that struck me as remarkable in the movie, and which might possibly be foreshadowing: - The fact that Snape was the one holding that bright, pulsing light in the corridor scene where he tries to confiscate the map from Harry. In a film where darkness and light played such an important role, this struck me as potentially very significant. Particularly as IIRC, Harry is standing in the light of Snape's wand, but Lupin is in the shadows... - Still on the subject of Snape, there's the rather conspicious fact that he got to at least attempt to protect the children, and didn't rant and rave about Sirius like in the book. Added to the fact that he isn't even specifically named as the source of the rumour about Lupin's condition, Snape gets rather a good deal out of the movie adaptation. - Meanwhile, Lupin doesn't fare quite so well. Aside from lurking in the shadows and telling Harry diddly-squat about the Marauders (okay, different problem there :), it's interesting that, as a werewolf, he attacks Harry and Hermione after incapacitating Sirius. In the book, he just disappeared into the forest, and Harry and Hermione 2 avoid him by running into Hagrid's hut. (And Lupin going after Harry and Hermione is a result of Hermione being a bit too clever for her own good - another possible future plot point.) - Draco Malfoy's cowardice. The character has been established as a bit of a wuss in the books, but not to the extent shown in the film... yet. Maybe this will play in future books. (It *did* play a role in PS/SS which was downplayed in the film, so it would make sense for this to come back - maybe Draco becomes a DE and his lack of courage proves decisive for Harry & Co at a crucial point?) - The Ron/Hermione thing, but as it's already in GoF and not exactly subtle in the film, I don't think this is much of a goose bumps foreshadowing thing. Of course, some of these changes were probably just Kloves' doing rather than Cuaron, and I haven't heard JKR praising *him* for his premonitions. :) Ariana From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 30 00:41:35 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:41:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] All-Time Favorite HP Lines References: Message-ID: <025201c45e3b$00bb1ac0$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103523 From: "Brenda M." > PLEASE... : > > (1) State which BOOK > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is fine > as well ;P Ariana's entries: This is the first one that came to mind, but I'll probably think of some other ones later! Mrs Weasley and George on prefects: 'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!' 'What are Fred and I, next-door neighbours?' For some reason, it made me laugh. :) Ariana From kailincj at msn.com Wed Jun 30 01:16:20 2004 From: kailincj at msn.com (Gwen) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:16:20 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103524 Joj "coolbeans3131" wrote: > So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think > it'll be fun to make a list of them. The one line from PoA that I really wish had made it into the movie, a really delicious double entendre, is delivered by McGonagall when Trelawny shows up for the Christmas feast: "Tripe, Sybil?" "Gwen" From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:31:21 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4810 In-Reply-To: <1088553413.14347.86123.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040630013121.25444.qmail@web14101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103525 Bren: So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them. "Amazing! It's just like magic!!" - Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS. Tyler: My fav is from POA, when teenage Sirius via the Maurader's Map says, "Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor." There's something about the "register his astonishment" part that cracks me up! ===== "May your life preach more loudly than your lips" -- William Channing __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ekrbdg at msn.com Wed Jun 30 01:33:55 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:33:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] All-Time Favorite HP Lines References: <025201c45e3b$00bb1ac0$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: <068301c45e42$50101420$c2e4f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 103526 *Kimberly's turn* There are lots of lines that make me chuckle and laugh but by far, my favorite line of the entire Series so far is this.... *OoTP- Amer. ed., Ch. 37, pg. 844* Dumbledore to Harry- "In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From armadillof at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:23:16 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:23:16 -0000 Subject: Fav HP line... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103527 I think I'd have to say: "Potter,"... "Potter!"... "POTTER," or "POTTER!" Never fails to put a smile on my face.... ;) AF :D From cburchak at telusplanet.net Wed Jun 30 01:23:54 2004 From: cburchak at telusplanet.net (Cora) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:23:54 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: <20040629201142.55834.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103528 ADB (Angela Brown) wrote: > I thought that Dumbledore explained the other "half blood prince" > at the end of OoP? Longbottom has the same b/d as Harry and he's > a "half blood" as well. Actually Neville is a full-blood wizard. This is why Voldemort settled on Harry rather then Neville as the child of the prophesy. Dumbledore explains this to Harry at the end of OotP. Voldemort identified with the Half Blood as he himself is a Half Blood. Personally I think the HBP is Tom Riddle. Cora From lmenard at shentel.net Wed Jun 30 01:32:40 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:32:40 -0400 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines References: Message-ID: <005c01c45e42$244af080$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 103529 Bren wrote: > PLEASE... : > > (1) State which BOOK > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is fine > as well ;P OOTP, Chapter 38 Moody to Dursley- 'I expect what you're not aware of would fill several books, Dursley,' growled Moody. Laura From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Jun 30 01:48:51 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:48:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP MUST have appeared in COS Message-ID: <1db.25391f0e.2e137603@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103530 In a message dated 6/29/2004 9:43:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cburchak at telusplanet.net writes: Actually Neville is a full-blood wizard. This is why Voldemort settled on Harry rather then Neville as the child of the prophesy. Dumbledore explains this to Harry at the end of OotP. Voldemort identified with the Half Blood as he himself is a Half Blood. Personally I think the HBP is Tom Riddle. Cora That would be rather a dirty trick on the part of Rowling. I doubt she would say that the HBP was neither Harry nor Voldemort and then make it Tom Riddle. After all Tom and Voldemort are the same person. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:50:56 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:50:56 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103531 ----------------------------------------------------- > PLEASE... : > > (1) State which BOOK > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is fine as well ;P Mike Feemster In the Sorcerer's Stone Hagrid says, "I've decided to call him Norbert. He really knows me now, watch. Norbert! Norbert! Where's Mommy?" I was listening to the Jim Dale book on tape and I had to stop the cassette because I started laughing so hard. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:59:32 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630015932.42809.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103532 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > > > asian_lovr2: Keep in mind that I have never seen a UK edition that said, 'Lily then James', I simple heard that the UK version had been changed to match the US version on this one point. I have also heard rumors that UK hardback and paperback don't match each other depending on which printing they are. Again, just internet small talk, that's is why it would be nice to find UK versions that have the change, and then most recently, that change changed back to the original. Just trying to help. Steve/asian_lovr2 akh: I bought the UK paperback set from Amazon.co.uk a few months ago, and it has the Lily/James sequence in it. FWIW, that matches my hardcover US edition, which would not have been a first printing, since I bought it in 2002. The paperback copy says, "This edition first published in 2001." I'm guessing that this edition, even if it was printed shortly before I bought it, is likely to be a reprint, not a newly edited version. akh, who also has a headache from trying to figure this out, or perhaps from that second glass of wine last night... ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:10:16 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630021016.32147.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103533 --- Wanda Sherratt wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "peter_jacobi.rm" > wrote: > > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? > I feel the > > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however > subtle it is. > > After the great revelation the reader should be > able to say: > > "I should have known!" > > > The only clue I can think of is the flask. > Crouch/Moody was always > drinking out of his own silver flask that he carried > around. Also, there was "Moody's" comment about "that's when I open my trunk" and Snape talking about the missing boomslang skin (Moody took it recently, though Hermione did steal some two years prior) and that "Moody" didn't use his lie-detecting items, but passed off the reason as kids lying about homework. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 01:52:22 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:52:22 -0000 Subject: What does a failed Death Curse look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103534 Steve wrote: > > Just one question; what does a failed death curse look > > like? > > > > All the other death curses showed the body of a dead > > person, but no one died from that one particular curse. > > Harry is alive, and in this scene, Voldy is very much > > alive. Kneasy wrote: > That point is arguable, IMO. > > There should be a dead Voldy body somewhere, cluttering up > the scenery. He arrived at GH in corporate form; he left it > as a spirit entity. What happened to the body he arrived in? > Can't it considered to have been 'killed'? Even Voldy says > "I was ripped from my body" so where is it? A body with no > life equals AK scores 1, no matter that it wasn't the intended > target. It should show on the replay and it doesn't. Hi, this is Jamie (Inkling), with a far out theory -- but it seems like whatever could explain this would have to be far out, so here goes -- Maybe it works something like this: what shows up as an echo from the wand during Priori Incantatem is the shadow of the visible result of the spell in question: for example, Wormtail's silver hand, shades of the victims of the AK curse (represented in the physical world by their corpses), Crouch Jr's Dark Mark at the beginnning of GF. Logically, the visual result(s) of the curse that failed would be at least two -- Harry's lightening scar and what ever became of Voldy's body when he was ripped from it. However it is possible that these visible signs were not caused by the spell itself but by the initial encounter between Harry and Voldemort? This involves some magical metaphysical speculation, but what if in some mysterious way, Harry and Voldermort share a core element, much as their wands do? It's often repeated that they have a lot in common, and they are very deeply linked through the scar, but what if the scar itself is a product of that link, and was produced by some metaphysical process that is similar to what happens when brother wands attempt to do battle? JKR has said that the shape is not the most important thing about the scar, implying that there is something crucial about this scar that has not been revealed yet. So what might have happened is something like this: the encounter between Voldy and the infant Harry unleashes a force that causes Voldy's wand to "short circuit" or "crash" when he attempts the AK curse. Hence no record of the results. The results are unprecendeted in the magical world -- Harry survives the AK curse, acquires a scar with a unique shape and properties, Voldemort is torn from his body but does not die. So it would seem that the force that produced these results went beyond the kind of ordinary spell magic recorded in a wand and revealed through Priori Incantatem. It is more powerful, and obeys different laws. Even though the wand may have started the chain reaction through attempting to transmit the curse, what happened went way beyong the curse or the wand. Not even Dumbledore fully understands it. Voldemort was completely blindsided by it. It was so powerful it wrecked the house. Then the question would be, what is the "shared core" of Harry and Voldemort? Maybe the reason Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort is because he is the only one who has this in common with him? Voldy chose Harry instead of Neville because he was a half blood like him, and he sensed that the boy most like him would pose the greatest threat. Maybe he had no idea how right he was? Enough speculation -- does this make any sense? Jamie From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 30 01:56:41 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:56:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Reduction Discussion References: <20040629152325.51546.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04ad01c45e45$8282efb0$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103535 Amber: > Yes, it's typical Harry going to the rescue, but I > would love to see the first task, too. When Harry > summons his Firebolt to him, it would provide great > special effects. IIRC, in the same interview where Dan Radcliffe said he was learning scuba-diving, he mentioned that he wasn't looking forward to filming the scenes for the first task, because sitting on the broomsticks was very uncomfortable (heh :). Which indicates to me that the first task is in the script at least. I've given some thought to the matter of what they could remove from the movie. If they really want to tear out the heart of the book, the film should concentrate on two main points: the Triwizard Tournament itself, and the Moody is actually Crouch Jnr revelation at the end. We already know that the actors playing the Dursleys haven't been asked back, so any scene involving them will have been removed from the movie, which isn't much anyway. The next victim could be the Quidditch World Cup. While it is a fascinating insight into the wizarding world, and offers a nasty reminder of what the Death Eaters were all about, its only tie to the two points above is the introduction of Viktor Krum and Winky. One line of dialog from Ron would be enough to explain who Krum is when the Durmstrang delegation turns up for the Tournament, and Winky could be dismissed by Crouch after the Tournament starts at Hogwarts. If they go straight to Hogwarts, that's 10 chapters less to stuff into the film already. (Having said that, PoA wasted a good chunk of screen time on the Knight Bus, which served no useful purpose to the plot compared to say, explaining who the Marauders were, so I don't know that they won't succumb to the "cool" factor of the World Cup and skip the whole 'Moody is actually Crouch Jr' plot instead! :) However, assuming they do drop the World Cup... Once at Hogwarts, they can introduce Moody, and start the Triwizard Tournament. They only need one DADA lesson with "Moody" to introduce the Unforgivable curse that will kill Cedric at the end. The first scene of the Triwizard tournament can introduce Crouch Sr and Percy's relationship to him. The three tasks will probably go as described in the book; they only seem to take a long time because there's a lot of Harry dreading them in the book, but I don't think all that will be necessary, or indeed very useful, in the film. The Yule Ball will definitely feature, as it's a chance to play up the romance between Ron and Hermione, which the films have always done so far. It also starts the Harry-Cho-Cedric thing; why include Cho in this film if there isn't going to be an opportunity for Harry to ask her out. We might get a forehead-clutching scene to indicate Harry's growing connection with Voldemort (unless they leave that for OotP). The graveyard scene will be there -- though I'm not sure if the fate of Wormtail's hand would suit a PG film. Cue Crouch Jr's revelation and there's a plot stuffed into two and a half hours. You'll notice however that my imagined scenario doesn't involve Rita Skeeter; I personally wouldn't miss her at all, though I think she's been cast for GoF. I don't know whether SPEW will feature; they pretty much glossed over the protracted Crookshanks/Scabbers subplot in PoA, so I can't see a great deal of screentime for a Hermione-centric topic. They'll probably find time for a couple of scenes of Malfoy being a tit (or rather a ferret :), Hagrid revealing he's part giant, a payday for Gary Oldman, and a speech from Dumbledore. I think it's feasible. Ariana From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:14:53 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:14:53 -0000 Subject: JAMES HBP and Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > Albus The White wrote: > > > James - Does the title character have to be living? Does the > HBP > > > have to exist in the "now" of the story, or could it be a piece > of > > > history or myth that figures into the story of book 6 somehow? > Do > > > we know anything about James's ancestry? > > AF responded: > > Now about James....it could possibly explain how Harry got all > that > > money....AND we know James' opinions on Mudbloods/half bloods, > etc... > > I (Laurasia reply): > > Ahh! You've beaten me to it! > > The money quote is from an AOL chat: > > "What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? > > Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find > out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he > didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both > Harry's parents later." > > If James is a Prince it's easy to see how he could inherit money. > > There's been speculation that being the Heir of Slytherin makes you > a Prince (if HBP was Tom Riddle), but what if James is the Heir of > Gryffindor? > > From JKRowling.com: > > "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally > planned for 'Chamber of Secrets', but very early on (first draft of > Chamber) I realised that this information's proper home was book > six. " > > This sounds like the information was backstory/history that Harry > was to discover. The truth about his parents certainly fits this. > > It's also easy to see "the LINK" between this new information and > CoS- Riddle as Heir of Slytherin and Harry as Heir of Gryffindor. > Harry pulls out Gryffindor's sword from the Hat. Perhaps in the > original drafts the story was focused more on Harry discovering > things about his own life, rather than solely discovering things > about Voldemort's past. Clearly "the LINK" between Harry and > Voldemort- how very similar they are, is a key theme in CoS. > > I think James as HBP is far more likely than Justin or Colin. > I'm betting it's either James or Tom Riddle. > > ~<(Laurasia)>~ An extremely compelling argument! Except... That would make HARRY a half-blood prince. And don't you think someone would have mentioned that??? Even DD wouldn't withhold that, do you think? UNLESS... The principality was matrilineal???? In which case there might be a relative through Harry's paternal grandmother who has taken the title... From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:18:43 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:18:43 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ewdotson01" wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > > Well, I assume you stand (or sit) book in hand, so that doesn't > > leave me much room to argue the point. > > > > "... Scholastic hardback ... First American edition ... "Your > > mother's coming..." " > > > > That doesn't leave any room for doubt. > > > For what it's worth my 1st edition, American hardcover copy of the > book has Lily then James with "You father's coming..." on pg. 667. I > assume that The Other Cheryl simply has an earlier printing than I > do. I mention this soley for completeness. :) > > Ernest What is it that tells you you have a first edition? Because it seems odd that you would have a changed version that says it is one. I'm holding my GoF hardcover in my hands also. I bought it the week it was released, and it too says "Your mother's coming..." right on p. 667. Also, on the title page, it says "First American Edition, July 2000." If yours also says "First American Edition," that would be very odd of Scholastic, but it would go a long way to explaining the confusion about what was printed when. When they make changes, isn't it supposed to be another edition? Oh, well, at least it seems clear by now that the first copies in both the US and UK had James emerging before Lily. Annemehr From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:24:00 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:24:00 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > > PLEASE... : > > > > (1) State which BOOK > > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is > fine as well ;P "Hello, Harry", said George, beaming at him. "We thought we heard your delcet tones". "You dont want to bottle up your anger like that, Harry, let it all out", said Fred, also beaming. "There might be a couple of people fifty miles away who didn't hear you". -Order of the Phoenix Jacqui From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:08:32 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:08:32 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103539 (Delurking in the excitement over the new title) Bren: >>What I don't understand is WHY US editor made that suggestion, and >on top of that, WHY JKR went along with it. I have a theory about the whole confusion. I think that JK initially forgot the order of death and wrote it as Lily coming out of the wand and saying "Your father's coming" then James emerging and telling Harry what to do - because what they say seemed to fit their characters better. We don't know much about Lily (and knew less in GoF) but we can assume she would be a motherly type whose first instinct would be to greet Harry. We know that James was a dynamic character who liked to plan things (Marauders' Map, animagus spells etc), so it makes a certain sense for him to be the one saying "break the connection and run" etc. If James comes out first, though, that leaves him saying all that and then Lily's appearance is a bit anti- climatic. If, however, James comes out, just saying "Hi, your mother's right behind me", then it's a little weak given that what we know about him thus far and it's also a bit odd for Lily to be the one with the big plan. I know this sounds pretty sexist - that the Dad is the one with the advice and the Mum is the caring one - but a) Rowling does tend to set up the adults in the story in traditional gender roles and b) it also fits with what we've been told about their characters. So, I believe that JK wrote the scene that way and the subsequent muddle was caused by someone realising it contradicted the order of death already given (either her originally, leaving her US editor to feel that the scene read wrongly after correction and wanting to change it, OR the US editor just realising the initial error). However, I might just have developed this idea because I read the book immediately on it coming out and so my copy has Lily emerging first, then James - I didn't even make the connection to the order they died in. But I do believe it's all just a muddle and not meant to trick us or have any significance about James being killed in some other way. "pandrea100" From starview316 at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 30 02:13:25 2004 From: starview316 at yahoo.ca (starview316) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:13:25 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103540 I know JKR said that for sure it wasn't Harry or Voldemort, but I have my personal bet on Tom Riddle (whom CoS was largely centered around, and who, in my opinion, is not exactly Voldemort). But Petunia is suspicious...Lol, I am loving the Dudley theory already! I love JKR's title. ^^ And all the speculation that goes along with it. "starview316" From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 30 02:16:33 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:16:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculations on HBP (Hagrid, Godric Gryffindor) References: <1088553413.14347.86123.m25@yahoogroups.com> <002601c45e37$33b8ae50$6500a8c0@Viking> Message-ID: <04b001c45e48$47aad210$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103541 From: "Jonathan House" > The other 50% I'm saving for someone that I haven't seen mentioned yet (I > may have missed it). What about Godric Griffindor? Ariana: My first thought was Salazar Slytherin, but then it occurred to me that Gryffindor makes even more sense. (A couple of other people have suggested this too) Since Gryffindor's sword appears briefly in CoS, the Sorting Hat is identified as his, and there's a suggestion that Harry might be *his* heir much as Riddle is Slytherin's, it would make sense that JKR had put a lot more about Gryffindor into CoS, but had to cut it out because it wasn't essential to the plot and she wasn't paid by the ounce in those days (just joking :). We already know via the Sorting Hat that there was a significant rift between Gryffindor and Slytherin back in the old days, and that Riddle is definitely Slytherin's descendent. It would therefore follow that his arch-nemesis Harry might be Gryffindor's descendent, which gives the LV/HP confrontation the added resonance of history repeating itself, with the two of then enacting the original confrontation between Slytherin and Gryffindor. Another reason I believe the "prince" will be someone from history is the same fact that people have already discussed here. JKR hasn't mentioned any kind of current royalty, and princes are more the sort of thing you find in fairy tales that take place a long time ago... they were probably more common in 9th century Scotland than they are today. Concerning the idea of Voldemort and Harry reenacting the confrontation between Gryffindor and Slytherin, it would be interesting to know exactly what did happen between those two. Maybe Harry will put that Sorting Hat on and ask it some more helpful questions than "what house should *I* be in?"; after all, the Hat would know exactly what was going on in Gryffindor's head (assuming it was on it at the time, anyway), and what happened might have repercussions for what Harry needs to do to defeat Voldy. Maybe Slytherin just stalked off in a huff without actually fighting Gryffindor, preferring to leave the basilisk to exact possible revenge later rather than risk an encounter with the pointy end of Godric's sword (as has been pointed out before, Slytherins can be brave, but they're not stupid). Cue a thousand years of unresolved conflict which leads to Harry and Voldy zapping the crap out of each other to bring about something new -- a union rather than a separation, maybe? (okay, that last bit might just be woolly thinking at 3.00 am, and also evokes bad slash fics, so I won't develop that further :) But right now, my money's on Gryffindor. Which probably means it's Ron. :) Ariana From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:26:55 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:26:55 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103542 Since according to Jo the HBP is neither Harry nor Tom Riddle, here are my guesses and non-guesses: Lupin - we don't know all that much about him, things are not be as they appear with him. I don't think its Justin from the standpoint of the HBP is just that a half-blood (half wizard/half muggle), Justin is muggle born (He stated it himself in CoS). I would looooove to say Draco, because that would just tick him off to no end to know that his mother is a squib passing off as a witch (would that still make him a half blood though?). LMAO!! And Jo did say we would learn more about Draco's mother. Could it be James Potter? We don't know anything about James's lineage. It has been said that James never had to get a well paying job because he inherited a great deal of wealth from his parents. Just because the title says Harry Potter and The Half Blood Prince, it doesn't mean that HBP is actually still alive. There are several interviews backing up the fact that we will learn more about James, his parents (and Lily's)and where James came into being wealthy. Mark Evans, I believe was some poor kid that got sucked into a conspiracy theory and has nothing to do with any future books except maybe one day beat the hell out of Dudley. Tina From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 30 02:36:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:36:18 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <04ad01c45e45$8282efb0$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103543 Ariana wrote: > IIRC, in the same interview where Dan Radcliffe said he was > learning scuba-diving, he mentioned that he wasn't looking forward > to filming the scenes for the first task, because sitting on the > broomsticks was very uncomfortable (heh :). Which indicates to me > that the first task is in the script at least. > > I've given some thought to the matter of what they could remove > from the movie. If they really want to tear out the heart of the > book, the film should concentrate on two main points: the > Triwizard Tournament itself, and the Moody is actually Crouch Jnr > revelation at the end. > > We already know that the actors playing the Dursleys haven't been > asked back, so any scene involving them will have been removed > from the movie, which isn't much anyway. The next victim could be > the Quidditch World Cup. While it is a fascinating insight into > the wizarding world, and offers a nasty reminder of what the Death > Eaters were all about, its only tie to the two points above is the > introduction of Viktor Krum and Winky. One line of dialog from Ron > would be enough to explain who Krum is when the Durmstrang > delegation turns up for the Tournament, and Winky could be > dismissed by Crouch after the Tournament starts at Hogwarts. If > they go straight to Hogwarts, that's 10 chapters less to stuff > into the film already. > > (Having said that, PoA wasted a good chunk of screen time on the > Knight Bus, which served no useful purpose to the plot compared to > say, explaining who the Marauders were, so I don't know that they > won't succumb to the "cool" factor of the World Cup and skip the > whole 'Moody is actually Crouch Jr' plot instead! :) > > The three tasks will probably go as described in the book; they > only seem to take a long time because there's a lot of Harry > dreading them in the book, but I don't think all that will be > necessary, or indeed very useful, in the film. > > The Yule Ball will definitely feature, as it's a chance to play up > the romance between Ron and Hermione, which the films have always > done so far. It also starts the Harry-Cho-Cedric thing. The > graveyard scene will be there -- though I'm not sure if the fate > of Wormtail's hand would suit a PG film. > > I don't know whether SPEW will feature; they pretty much > glossed over the protracted Crookshanks/Scabbers subplot in PoA, > so I can't see a great deal of screentime for a Hermione-centric > topic. SSSusan: I enjoyed this very much and agree w/ you about the Knight Bus scene in PoA. It was fun and Stan Shunpike's bit was fairly important, but it went on longer than necessary...as did the blowing up Marge scene. As for what will stay from canon in GoF, I agree that the Yule Ball will stay for its romantic interest and that the Triwizard tasks only *seem* that they'd take up so much time because the book shows Harry dreading them for so long, so I think all three will likely be there. And a GoF movie WITHOUT the graveyard scene would be a total travesty. No way that's left out. As for what you've suggested might get cut...well, I've no history in the film industry or anything, so my views carry little weight, but I don't think they'll totally cut out the QWC or SPEW. I don't see SPEW as just a Hermione-centric topic but [along w/ the Muggle- baiting and Dark Mark at the QWC] as a build-up to the importance of JKR's themes of prejudice and treatment of other creatures. [I'm thinking of the fountain in OoP here, esp., and DD's remarks about it and the WW's culpability for its treatment of magical creatures.] Anyhoo, I think the whole QWC could be done in maybe 6-8 mins., unless they use the whole camp set-up as an introductory, get- settled-into-your-seats-and-see-the-wacky-witches-who've-no-clue- about-the-Muggle-World scene. [Which is how I saw the Marge & Knight Bus scenes in PoA.] So a condensed QWC scene and then get the kids to Hogwarts, and you're ready for the arrival of Durmstrang & Beauxbatons and the GoF in 15 mins. or so. Or so it'd be if *I* ruled the world. Ha! Siriusly Snapey Susan From sonjaaiston at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:30:55 2004 From: sonjaaiston at yahoo.com (sonjaaiston) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:30:55 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103544 Why did Snape teach Harry Occlumency in OofP? This is something that has been bothering me. I usually don't post b/c I'm afraid the topic I want to discuss has been discussed ad nauseam. I hope this already hasn't been completely hashed out: My understanding is: Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry Occlumency b/c he didn't want LV to see how close he was to Harry. So he had to find someone else. Snape was excellent, so he was chosen to teach Harry. BUT, my problem is, isn't it just as dangerous for LV to see Snape close to Harry? Wouldn't LV put pressure on Snape to intefere with Harry. Wouldn't LV question Snape's loyalty if he saw Snape helping Harry? Is it possible that Harry did not succeed with Occlumency b/c Snape didn't want LV to see Harry succeed? Maybe this was just a way for Snape to show his "loyalty" to LV so he could continue his "double agent" work. (Though, if that is the case, it is trully shameful that Harry was not warned about the prophecy and LV intentions.) Snape's Trustworthiness: Aside from the above topic, I'm am beginning to think Snape will end up being a traitor to Dumbledore ---- only b/c we have been told so many times (by Hermione and Dumbledore) that he is on Dumbledore's side. Harry and Ron have suspected Snape many times only to find out they were wrong. It seems JKR might be giving us a "false sense of security." Any thoughts? Sonja From Irisheyes1221 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:33:49 2004 From: Irisheyes1221 at hotmail.com (irisheyes1221221) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:33:49 -0000 Subject: Lily and James Changed again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103545 JK's web site has been again. If you go to it now it says that Lily came out of the wand first, then James. I don't know when this change occurred... -Irish From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:44:55 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:44:55 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: <003b01c45e33$8e78f010$31289518@janet> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103546 One of my very favorites is: "I'm not putting them on," said old Archie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privated, thanks." GOF >Snow< From trinity31405 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:33:52 2004 From: trinity31405 at yahoo.com (Trinity) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:33:52 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103547 Bren: > PLEASE... : > > (1) State which BOOK > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is > fine as well ;P This is my all time favorite quote, because it is so true. "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our ablities." 1. The Chamber of Secrets 2. Dumbledore 3. Trinity From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:39:30 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:39:30 -0000 Subject: Harry, Gryffindor's Heir? (Re: Speculations on HBP (Hagrid, Godric Gryffindor)) In-Reply-To: <04b001c45e48$47aad210$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103548 In some ways I like this theory about Harry being Gryffindor's heir, but then surely he would have gone straight into Gryffindor House? I can't see the Hat considering placing him in Slytherin in that case, even with the Voldemort residuals. "pandrea100" From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:50:14 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:50:14 -0000 Subject: Minerva as New DADA Prof. -- even if it's the last thing she does In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103549 Deb in NJ wrote, I personally don't think this is it. I think that, now Dumbledore's told Harry the prophecy and so Harry (and the rest of us) know what's riding on him, Dumbledore could not put Snape in front of the classroom to teach Harry DADA. It's too important for Harry to learn as much Defense Against the Dark Arts as possible--more important than learning Potions. I like to think that Dumbledore is going to find a top-notch DADA teacher to help Harry along (like he did when he hired Lupin). vmonte in NJ responds: Maybe it's going to be Minerva. She did say that she was going to help Harry become an Auror -- even if it was the last thing she would do. And considering the 5 year trend of one year DADA teachers, it may be the last thing she does. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:45:16 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:45:16 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103550 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > Anyhoo, I think the whole QWC could be done in maybe 6-8 mins., > unless they use the whole camp set-up as an introductory, get- > settled-into-your-seats-and-see-the-wacky-witches-who've-no-clue- > about-the-Muggle-World scene. [Which is how I saw the Marge & > Knight Bus scenes in PoA.] So a condensed QWC scene and then get > the kids to Hogwarts, and you're ready for the arrival of Durmstrang > & Beauxbatons and the GoF in 15 mins. or so. Valky: This would almost certainly require a complete removal of the Ten Ton Tongue! and Fireplace scene which I simply couldn't have!! and considering that the humour themes are often kept to some degree in the movies I also doubt. Besides that the Portkey needs a proper introduction I should say, so perhaps it will be 20 - 25 mins into the film that we will be meeting Fleur. From trinity31405 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:48:04 2004 From: trinity31405 at yahoo.com (Trinity) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:48:04 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103551 "starview316" wrote: > I know JKR said that for sure it wasn't Harry or Voldemort, but I > have my personal bet on Tom Riddle (whom CoS was largely centered > around, and who, in my opinion, is not exactly Voldemort). I agree with you on this. I believe the HBP is Tom Riddle not Voldemort. Of course I had to dust off the old book and see what Tom Riddle had to say in the chamber. I feel that it relevant to the HBP issue. "You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever! I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, "common" (quotes are mine) Muggle." (CS US p314) This to me suggest royalty. He use the term "common" for his father and talks about the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself. Royal Blood? Another interesting section-"There are stange likenesses between us, after all. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherine himself. We even look something alike..." (CS US p317) I find both of these passages very interesting and my mind is running with a lot of the theories here. Tom Riddle trapped inside Harry? Ok now my head hurts. Anyone else with any thoughts? One question I don't know if this was brought up in the past but, has anyone discussed that Harry's scar never hurt him while in the Chamber with Tom Riddle? This only happens with Voldemort. I wonder why? Thanks for reading, Trinity From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 02:53:47 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:53:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's future career Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103552 I've seen quite a few posts discussing how Harry can get round the Potions OWL requirement to train as an Auror. But really, we don't know for sure that this is a serious goal of his. I got the impression that he and Ron thought it would be cool, but they hadn't really thought it through, any more than thinking it would be cool to play professional Quidditch. With the constant peril etc. he can hardly plan for the future properly anyway. Unless there's something I'm missing, a reason why people believe it is inevitable that Harry end up as an Auror or that he desperately wants to be one? "pandrea100" From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 02:55:43 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:55:43 -0000 Subject: "Best of Potter" - What is your favorite line from HP books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: corrected version: One of my very favorites is: "I'm not putting them on," said old Archie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privates, thanks." GOF >Snow< From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 02:56:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:56:47 -0000 Subject: James+Lily=CONFUSION (WAS: Death to James in Two Variations) In-Reply-To: <022e01c45e33$be637a70$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103554 > Ariana: > I wonder if they'll film two versions of the scene this summer in case she > changes her mind again! :) > > Ariana > Currently wading through the speculation on the Half Blood Prince. Only 300 > posts to go... Potioncat: Suddenly I wonder if JKR is hinting that a time turner was used and things changed? From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 30 02:58:10 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:58:10 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103555 Just for kicks, here is what Webster's Dictionary has to say on "prince": 1 a : MONARCH, KING b : the ruler of a principality or state 2 : a male member of a royal family; especially : a son of the sovereign 3 : a nobleman of varying rank and status 4 : one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession I thought this might help us clarify potential suspects! imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 03:05:07 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:05:07 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sonjaaiston" wrote: > Why did Snape teach Harry Occlumency in OofP? huge snip. Hi, Sonja! That was indeed discussed here in great details rahter recently. Check out ... let's say message 100606 and many many, many messages that follow. :o) Topics do get rehashed though all the time and this was not the first and hopefully not the last time when we will be discussing that. :o) I want to concentrate on the second part of your post though, since I am still not in repeating mood for the blame game. :o) Of course, everything is Snape fault. We all know that, right? ;) > > Snape's Trustworthiness: > > Aside from the above topic, I'm am beginning to think Snape will end > up being a traitor to Dumbledore ---- only b/c we have been told so > many times (by Hermione and Dumbledore) that he is on Dumbledore's > side. Harry and Ron have suspected Snape many times only to find > out they were wrong. It seems JKR might be giving us a "false sense > of security." > Alla: OK, I used to think that after OoP Snape may betray the Order, I don't think so anymore. It seems that movie no matter how far from canon it is , convinced me in quite a few things. I think that JKR would have vetoed the scene of Snape shielding the Trio, if he would have to be a traitor after all. I was also thinking that Hermione and Dumbledore tell us about trusting Snape way too many times, BUT I now believe that imaginary betrayal of the sort is possible. Yes, we as the readers are convinced that Harry is wrong in his "he will never forgive Snape, ever". Everybody will tell Harry that he is wrong, etc., etc. Harry will be lead to believe that Snape did something to betray the Order, throwing us, readers and our sense of secuyrity of track, but at the end we will learn that Snape is loyal after all, making t as Annemehr once said a "clever double bluff" on JKR's part. Have I just defended Snape again? I don't believe myself. :) From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 03:05:44 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:05:44 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103557 Steve wrote: Is there anyone out there in the great Potter world, who can produce a 'James then Lily' Scholastic/US version of the book? There must be fans out there who have early versions. (I was late to the bandwagon) It would be nice to get the sequence of events relative to the various publishers and printings nailed down, positively confirmed, so we could all work from the same core of verified information. Thanks to any help anyone can give. vmonte responds: page 667, US version Has James first, Lily second. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 03:20:11 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630032011.85630.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103559 That was Justin, and he was muggle-born, not half-blood. ~Debra Ooops my bad. But even so Seamus is one of the few half-bloods we know in the books. Male half bloods at that. I can only think of a few...Lupin, Seamus and Riddle. So any of those three are who we are looking at. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 30 03:30:54 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:30:54 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103560 > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > > Anyhoo, I think the whole QWC could be done in maybe 6-8 mins., > > unless they use the whole camp set-up as an introductory, get- > > settled-into-your-seats-and-see-the-wacky-witches-who've-no-clue- > > about-the-Muggle-World scene. [Which is how I saw the Marge & > > Knight Bus scenes in PoA.] So a condensed QWC scene and then get > > the kids to Hogwarts, and you're ready for the arrival of Durmstrang > > & Beauxbatons and the GoF in 15 mins. or so. > Valky: > This would almost certainly require a complete removal of the Ten > Ton Tongue! and Fireplace scene which I simply couldn't have!! and > considering that the humour themes are often kept to some degree > in the movies I also doubt. Besides that the Portkey needs a > proper introduction I should say, so perhaps it will be 20 - 25 > mins into the film that we will be meeting Fleur. SSSusan again: I think they WILL likely remove the TTT and fireplace scenes, since none of the Dursley actors are being "enlisted" for GoF, at least as reports go so far. Bummer, I know, but w/ that number of pages to cover.... I wonder if they could begin at the Burrow the night before or morning of the QWC, then show them using the Portkey, and then my "condensed" QWC. I still think they could be ready for Fleur in under 20 mins. (Maybe I've got a lousy sense of time, though!) SSSusan From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 03:32:16 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:32:16 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" > wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > PLEASE... : > > > > > > (1) State which BOOK > > > (2) WHO said? (when appropriate) > > > (3) Your NAME, if you want it to be on the record. Yahoo!ID is > > fine as well ;P > I forgot one! 1. Order of the Phoenix 2. Phineas Nigellus 3. Alora "You know, Minister, I disagree with Dumbledore on many counts....but you cannot deny he's got style...." Man, I love that one! Alora From hawkeye072 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 30 03:08:27 2004 From: hawkeye072 at sbcglobal.net (madeyemoody72) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:08:27 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood??????? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103562 Why is Harry considered a half-blood. If anything he should be a three-quarter blood shoudn't he? Madeyemoody72 From mrsbonsai at charter.net Wed Jun 30 03:40:35 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:40:35 -0000 Subject: Who killed James & Lily? In-Reply-To: <9rr6th+qrf0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103563 Well I was looking but did not see this reply. Is it at all possible that Voldemort used Lily's "excellent for charm work" wand to try to kill Harry? And that's why the rebounded spell did not come out in GoF? I guess I should say I know that the reference of the charm wand was actually reference to Lily's first wand, however, it would seem to stand to reason that a subsequent wand would also be "charmed"? In this, could it also be that the wand belonging to Lily would indeed backfire as it would "know" her son? Perhaps there was a struggle of some kind and then Voldemort had to grab a nearby wand. It seems we've seen evidence of other struggles where wizards and witches use other's wands. And then there's the reference where another wizards wand can never be used as effectively as your own? Julie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, shanerichmond at h... wrote: message #28581 From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 30 03:41:51 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:41:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? Message-ID: <12e.4546e793.2e13907f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103564 In a message dated 6/29/2004 11:25:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com writes: > That was Justin, and he was muggle-born, not half-blood. > > ~Debra > > Ooops my bad. But even so Seamus is one of the few half-bloods we know in > the books. Male half bloods at that. > > I can only think of a few...Lupin, Seamus and Riddle. > > So any of those three are who we are looking at. And Dean. At least according to JKR's website. Given that Dean apparently doesn't know the truth of his parentage, he could be a Prince and not know it. My other choices, in order of preference are: Arthur Weasley and Professor Snape. Arthur has a muggle 2nd cousin who's an accountant. Ron said "If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." [American version Scholastic hardback, p 116] Maybe his mother was a muggle-born witch, and we've debated the Arthur mythos connections before. Snape; well, I can't help wondering why Karkaroff thought that exposing a 21 year old wizard was such a big deal unless the Snape name meant something. As for his taunting of Lily, well we have TMR's history of hating what he was to consider. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 03:34:52 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:34:52 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103565 I did have a copy of the audio book (which has since disappeared) and it says that James came out of the wand, turned to Harry and said the same thing that Lily then James version says, "Harry, wait for your mother.... Your mother's coming." Then, Lily came out of the wand. Tina From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 03:10:56 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:10:56 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103566 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > I happen to think the HBP is Tom Riddle, but others have made a > good case for different characters. Ryan S. wrote: > JKR Quote: "I have said before now that 'Chamber' holds some very > important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as > six, obviously, but there is a LINK." (emphasis mine) > I would interpret the "link" to be a person from CoS. Valky: I am pretty sure Jo is not kidding or cryptic when she states that it's not Voldemort. Now I have a *feeling* about the Weasleys. They factor a great deal in COS and we get our first glimpse at Arthur in the opening chapters. A couple of notables in COS grab my attention as though something is being hinted but not revealed. First: Lucius' comment about Arthur being a disgrace to the name wizard. There has been speculation that the Weasleys have abdicated something on principle and I am starting to really believe that it's possible. Second: Mr Weasley's comment to Ginny about not knowing where the diary keeps its brain seemed a little too personal to him. Which leads me to ponder did Arthur destroy something of great power that was inherited by him? As I said it's mostly a feeling so there you go, probably nothing and I do like the possibility of HBP being Hagrid also. He would certainly be a humble and sweet royal wouldn't he. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 30 03:49:12 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:49:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All-Time Favorite HP Lines Message-ID: <11b.33d7e963.2e139238@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103567 OotP Dumbledore The Other Cheryl "Well - it's just that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am going to - what is the phrase? 'Come quietly.' I am afraid I am not going ti come quietly at all, Cornelius. I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course - but what a waste of time, and frankly, I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 30 03:55:32 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:55:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Message-ID: <1ea.243a1232.2e1393b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103568 In a message dated 6/29/2004 10:27:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, pandrea100 at hotmail.com writes: > I have a theory about the whole confusion. I think that JK initially > forgot the order of death and wrote it as Lily coming out of the wand > and saying "Your father's coming" then James emerging and telling > Harry what to do - because what they say seemed to fit their > characters better. That makes sense. Hm. Then any further attempt at clarification just muddled up the whole thing. Though I still suspect Lockhart with a timeturner... ;-) The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 04:22:18 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 04:22:18 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > OK, I used to think that after OoP Snape may betray the Order, I > don't think so anymore. Snip > > It seems that movie no matter how far from canon it is , convinced me > in quite a few things. > > I think that JKR would have vetoed the scene of Snape shielding the > Trio, if he would have to be a traitor after all. I agree! She has been close to the films, is pleased with the writer and says the third film is her favourite. She has even said, in the past, that he anticipated something that would happen later (my guess is Ron and Hermione). And film-Snape is nowhere near as unpleasant as book-Snape. If she was satisfied to have Snape defend the trio, it suggests Steve Kloves is thinking along her lines. There was also a hint of the reasons for Snape's hatred of the Marauders, which will develop in the later films, even if some of the book explanation is missing - watch the way Sirius treats him in that scene. If JKR was unhappy with the interpretation, she would have said something. > > I was also thinking that Hermione and Dumbledore tell us about > trusting Snape way too many times, BUT I now believe that imaginary > betrayal of the sort is possible. Dumbledore has stuffed up before, but I suspect before the end he will let Harry know why he trusts Snape and the reason will be good. > From rarpsl at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 04:19:55 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:19:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103570 At 01:10 +0000 on 06/30/2004, snow15145 wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Releva: >Steve, shouldn't the U.S. editions if they were revised at some point >have something stating about the revision on the copyright page? > >This may not be relevant but my 2002 paperback copy has a paragraph >on the copyright page that I thought was unusual, it says: > >"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that >this book is stolen property. It was reported as "unsold and >destroyed" to the publisher, and neither the author nor the publisher >has received any payment for this "stripped book." > >I thought it was an interesting statement. You have to know the way books are distributed to understand the significance and reason for that warning on the copyright page. When a Book Story (or distributor) orders a book they have the right to "return" it for a refund of the price they paid for it if all the copies they ordered did not sell. For paperbacks (as opposed to Hardbacks), the actual book is not returned for the credit but only the book cover. The "stripped" book (ie: The coverless book) is supposed to be destroyed but sometimes gets sold to a "remainder" distributor who then sells it to the public. Since the book was supposedly destroyed the publisher has refunded the purchase price to the Book Store (or the Store's Distributor) and the author does not got a royalty on that copy of the book. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 04:25:00 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 04:25:00 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20040630032011.85630.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103571 Er - sorry, just discovered this discussion after a few days offline - what have I missed here? Where in the novels does it mention a "half-blood prince"? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: > That was Justin, and he was muggle-born, not half-blood. > > ~Debra > > Ooops my bad. But even so Seamus is one of the few half-bloods we know in the books. Male half bloods at that. > > I can only think of a few...Lupin, Seamus and Riddle. > > So any of those three are who we are looking at. > > ~Melanie > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 04:29:41 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 04:29:41 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: <00d701c45e36$57247af0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103572 >>> Sherry G By the way, Bren, I love your idea of compiling them all into a word document. Could you send it to people? The yahoo site is a pain to navigate around with screen reading software, so I don't go visit the group's site, unless I really have to. Love this thread! <<< Bren now: Awwww... Thanks so much for the support, Sherry (with Y)!! You're making me blush, good thing it's so dark here - (c) Dumblydore ;) I'll ask an Elf to upload it under "Files" when it's ready anyways, for everyone to see. Once the thread starts dying, I'll post a Notification Message saying I would "close" the "Poll without Multiple Choice" in a week or something. Whoever wants to avoid using the screen reading software, please let me know, I'll send out emails. Just remember to check your Junk Mail folder once the "poll" is closed!!! ;P Heehee, McGonagall is more popular than I ever imagined! lol. Brenda From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 04:35:45 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:35:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half-Blood??????? Message-ID: <132.306b5e8e.2e139d21@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103573 In a message dated 06/29/2004 10:42:31 PM Central Daylight Time, hawkeye072 at sbcglobal.net writes: > Why is Harry considered a half-blood. If anything he should be a > three-quarter blood shoudn't he? > > Madeyemoody72 > > That's my opinion on the matter. He has more wizarding blood than Voldemort but not as much as Neville. Although I suspect for JKR's purposes calling him a half blood is well enough. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 04:50:04 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:50:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Half Brother Prince Message-ID: <1e.2d45078a.2e13a07c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103574 In a message dated 06/28/2004 7:30:57 PM Central Daylight Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: > and the Minister says no other wizards/witches live > in Little Whinging. > I've been thinking about this in regards to Mark Evans himself. Its possible that the Ministry is referring to fully trained, adult wizards. An untrained, underage muggleborn 10 year old who has no idea that he IS a wizard might not be something that they would be concerned about Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 05:32:06 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:32:06 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ewdotson01" > wrote: > > "Steve" wrote: > > > Well, I assume you stand (or sit) book in hand, so that doesn't > > > leave me much room to argue the point. > > > > > > "... Scholastic hardback ... First American edition ... "Your > > > mother's coming..." " > > > > > > That doesn't leave any room for doubt. > > > > > > For what it's worth my 1st edition, American hardcover copy of the > > book has Lily then James with "You father's coming..." on pg. 667. I > > assume that The Other Cheryl simply has an earlier printing than I > > do. I mention this soley for completeness. :) > > > > Ernest > Annemehr: > > I'm holding my GoF hardcover in my hands also. I bought it the week > it was released, and it too says "Your mother's coming..." right on > p. 667. Also, on the title page, it says "First American Edition, > July 2000." > > Oh, well, at least it seems clear by now that the first copies in > both the US and UK had James emerging before Lily. > > Annemehr asian_lovr2: Thanks you so much for posting. Since I now have two separate unrelated people who are swearing they hold a 'American Edition' in their hand that says. '...your mother is coming...', I think we can now take it as an absolute fact. The earliest copies of the Scholastic -American Edition originally matched the first UK edition. James came out of the wand and said '...your mother's coming...' the Lily appeared; James before Lily. Thanks again. That clears up the books, but JKR's statement on her website still has no credibility with me any longer. Given that she said it both ways within a 24 hour period, I can't believe either one. Steve/asian_lovr2 PS: Hang on to those books folks, they could be worth a lot of money some day. Probably be worth a small fortune right now if they were autographed. From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 05:36:58 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:36:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's future career In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103576 Well i always assumed HP would end up an Arror because he says it is the only job after hogwarts he has ever considered. Also JK has said that Harry has seen too much action to be a teacher. So maybe he may not be an Arror, but he may end up part of the magical law enforcement squad. John From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 05:46:46 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:46:46 -0000 Subject: Evans is book canon (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood pr In-Reply-To: <007401c45e1c$77f90440$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > > Ryan: > > Unless I am mistaken, Lily Potter's maiden name isn't mentioned > > anywhere in the actual text, merely from an interview with JKR. > > > > Ryan S. > Alina: > > I'm afraid you're wrong, Lily's maiden name is mentioned in the > Pensieve scene in book 5. Fifteen year old James repeatedly calls > Lily by her last name, "Hey, Evans!" > > Alina. Asian_lovr2: Alina is correct. It seems a very strange and an extreme coincidence that the very first time we are given Lily EVANS' lastname is in the same book that a character named Mark Evans is introduced. Certainly Evans is a common name, but would any good author really use that name twice, expecially when in one case it refers to one of the most important and critical characters in the book? Shouldn't any reasonable writer intentionally NOT use the EVANS name again to prevent any confusion or distraction? Sorry, but from my point of view, for two people to appear for the first time in the same book and have the same lastname is just too much of a coincidence. Steve/asian_lovr2 From MagRig13 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 05:55:43 2004 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:55:43 -0000 Subject: Website Clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103578 JK Rowling said that there are a lot of things hidden on the website. I myself have only found one, the one having to do with Dean Thomas formerly being called Gary or something like that. I was just wondering if anyone else had found more than that? Thanks! ~~Maggie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 06:10:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:10:21 -0000 Subject: uncle algy??? In-Reply-To: <33846111.20040622094545@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103579 > Gina (I think) wrote: >Didn't someone say that the character Augustus in the US version is >Algernon in the UK version? Could that be uncle algy? > Dave responded: > You mean Neville's uncle could be a DE -- Rookwood!? > > And if it's really *Algernon* Rookwood, are there also a couple of > dangerous DE's named Gwendolyn and Cecily?? > > Actually, I'm starting to wonder if any of the DE's might be sort > of twisted references... I seem to recall in GoF a mention of a DE > Travers who killed a woman named McKenna. -- In our world, > (Bill) Travers and (Virginia) McKenna were a happily married acting > couple! Carol: Actually, it was the McKinnons, plural. One of them was Marlene. No Virginia. Whether the McKinnons were a married couple or related in some other way, I don't know, but I doubt that there's a connection with your RL McKennas. (Cute Wilde allusion, BTW.) As for Great Uncle Algie being a DE, I doubt it very much given Gran's support of Dumbledore and the fate of Algie's nephew Frank and niece by marriage Alice. I think that the American editor wanted to avoid confusion between Algernon Longbottom and Algernon Rookwood and suggested (sensibly) that Rookwood's first name be changed to Augustus. Carol, humbly apologizing for being perennially behind on posting and trying desperately to catch up From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 06:21:43 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:21:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: > Entropy wrote: > > > I think Lupin would make the perfect "Half Blood Prince". > > Look at the canon: > ... carin_in_oh wrote: > This is a very attractive idea. I've been thinking since re-reading > (and re-watching) POA about Lupin's status as the last surviving > marauder. We've noted that Sirius's death leaves Lupin as Harry's last > (maybe best) father-figure and presumed that Lupin and Harry's > relationship will develop, but I don't think it's been remarked that > Sirius's death also quietly clears the way for Lupin to take center > stage in other respects. I don't have a well-developed theory on this; > I just agree that Lupin's one to watch. > > (Otoh, this was a working title for COS and Lupin hadn't appeared yet > at that stage...) Diana L. adds: One point, Lupin is not the last surviving Marauder - Pettigrew is still alive. Pettigrew may as well be dead to his former friends and Harry, but technically he is still breathing. Good points you've brought up, Carin. I had discounted Lupin because I just can't see suddenly stunning revelations about established characters being put out in the sixth book. But, if Lupin takes a bigger role in Harry's life after Sirius's death...then Harry will most likely find out much more about him, maybe including a connection to royalty? I still have my doubts, but like you wrote, Lupin will be one to watch in upcoming books. If Lupin does end up taking a more active role in Harry's life, I'm interested to what tidbits will be revealed about Lupin, regardless if Lupin has anything to do with the Half Blood Prince of the title or not. Diana L. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 06:49:13 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:49:13 -0000 Subject: Harry, Gryffindor's Heir? (Re: Speculations on HBP (Hagrid, Godric Gryffindor)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > In some ways I like this theory about Harry being Gryffindor's heir, > but then surely he would have gone straight into Gryffindor House? I > can't see the Hat considering placing him in Slytherin in that case, > even with the Voldemort residuals. > > "pandrea100" I, for one, have never been convinced that the hat did WANT to place him in Slytherin. All I read was the hat asking Harry, "why not?" Then the hat said Harry would do well in Slytherin AFTER Harry mentioned it. Jason From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 06:53:54 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:53:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's left knee (was: Re: "Best of Potter") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: Jacqui: > "Scars can come in handy. I have one myself above my left knee that > is a perfect map of the London Underground." > > I have always been kind of fond of that one :) Geoff: What always amuses me about that comment is Dumbledore's modesty to describe a scar which is a perfect map of the Underground as "one" scar(!) Also, presumably he needs a magnifying glass to look at it's detail if the whole map is just above his left knee, bearing in mind the size of the real system.... Geoff (who taught close to that contradiction in terms - the southern end of the Northern Line for years) From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 07:04:35 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:04:35 -0000 Subject: James killed before Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103583 Okay, after re-reading JKR's post on her website and the "Priori Incantatum" chapter at the end of GoF, I firmly believe that James was killed before Lily. JKR states that Lily was to come out of the wand FIRST and then James last. Since the wand was spitting out spells in the REVERSE order they were performed, then this means that James must have been killed before Lily. I believe that JKR accidentally muddled the matter more with her comment that her "American editor" thought it was the wrong order and 'corrected' it, when in fact he actually switched the proper order. At first, I, like many others, thought she was referring only to the American edition of the book, but I think this assumption was wrong. I think that what she was saying was that herself, the UK editor for Bloomsbury and the American editor for Scholastic were all together in the same room (or at least IM'ing or conference calling) in the rush to finish GoF and get it okayed for printing. In that rush, the American editor spoke up and said that the order of Lily and James was backwards (probably due to his forgetting that the spells were appearing in REVERSE order) and it needed fixed. The UK editor, in on this conversation, was alerted that this "mistake" needed correction and followed suit. Remember the books were released on the same day in the UK and the USA, so both editions must have been edited and prepped for printing at the same time. This must be why the first UK and first American editions mistakenly have James, then Lily coming out of Voldemort's wand. So, somewhere down the line of printings, new books were fixed so that the correct order was restored with Lily coming out first and James coming out last. I have read this chapter in the most recent (corrected) printings and Lily does come out of the wand before James. I have a UK edition (printed in Canada) that has James coming out first. My American first edition hardback (from July 2000) also has James coming out of the wand first. Both are incorrect. So, regardless of what comes after, JKR's statement that "Lily first, then James." on the order they should have come out of the wands confirms that James was killed before Lily. This fits with what we've been told through Harry's dementor-inflicted memories of his parents' last moments alive. Thank goodness, we've enough mysteries to figure out without a brand new one! ;) Diana L. dianasdolls From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 07:11:53 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:11:53 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > Is there anyone out there in the great Potter world, who can produce a > 'James then Lily' Scholastic/US version of the book? There must be > fans out there who have early versions. (I was late to the bandwagon) > > It would be nice to get the sequence of events relative to the various > publishers and printings nailed down, positively confirmed, so we > could all work from the same core of verified information. > > Thanks to any help anyone can give. I have the July 2000 first edition hardback of GoF and in my book James comes out of the wand before Lily. In my early edition, James says "Your mother's coming..." [he said quietly.] "She wants to see you...it will be all right...hold on...." And then Lily comes out of the wand. It's obvious now that the first USA editions and first UK editions of the book have the wrong order as Lily should have come out of the wand before James. Diana L. From chrissilein at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 07:23:17 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:23:17 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103585 Hi, hence Voldemort got destroyed by attacking Lily/Harry it must have been James who died first. This is all I can say about it. Greetings. From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jun 30 07:31:35 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:31:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. References: Message-ID: <007601c45e74$46517fa0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103586 > hence Voldemort got destroyed by attacking Lily/Harry it must have > been James who died first. This is all I can say about it. > I personally think James died first, but regardless of that, the fact that AKing Harry vaporized Voldemort doesn't necessarily mean he killed James first. See, Priori Incantem shows all previous spells, not just the previous spells performed by the wizard holding it. That's why we saw Cedric's echo appear from the wand despite the fact that it was wormtail who AKed him, using Voldemort's wand. So, it's still possible to theorize that Voldemort got vaporized and then a servant of his picked up the wand and killed James. If only JKR would make up her mind, eh? ^^ Alina. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 07:49:19 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:49:19 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? James Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103587 Tina wrote: > Could it be James Potter? We don't know anything about James's > lineage. It has been said that James never had to get a well paying > job because he inherited a great deal of wealth from his parents. > Just because the title says Harry Potter and The Half Blood Prince, > it doesn't mean that HBP is actually still alive. There are several > interviews backing up the fact that we will learn more about James, > his parents (and Lily's)and where James came into being wealthy. I'm really warming to this idea that James Potter may be the half blood prince of the title. It occured to me that not only could James's inherited wealth be explained by royal lineage, but other curious events could be as well. Take James's arrogant behavior inside Snape's memory in OotP, for example. If James was really a prince it could explain his cockiness and arrogance. James sure thought a lot of himself and I could honestly see a royal lineage and title going to his head and causing that kind of better-than-thou behavior. James-as-the-prince would also help lay heavy-duty ground work on the intense hatred that Snape has for James and Harry. Imagine Snape as a possibly poor or lower-midddle-class boy from a broken or dysfunctional home going to Hogwarts where a rich, cocky prince (James) picks on him constantly (with Snape giving it right back to James). I could also see Lily being very upset with a prince who acts like a jerk when he should be acting more like his title suggests. Now, years later, the son of the now-dead prince shows up and Snape sees the opportunity to get revenge on another 'prince' (if Harry could still be assigned the title through lineage that is). Snape may not know that Harry knows very little about his father and may think Harry is just full of himself like his father was. Most likely Snape could care less if Harry knows anything about James, and just enjoys putting the screws to this young 'prince' that seems to get away with everything....like his father did. I could easily see that the details that were left out CoS (that are now going to be in book 6) were all about Dumbledore explaining to Harry about his lineage, which is descended from Godric Gryffindor himself. This revelation of Harry's lineage (and royal connection through James?) could easily have been inserted into CoS when Dumbledore was explaining to Harry about his being a true Gryffindor because he pulled Godric's sword out of the the Sorting Hat (formerly Godric's hat!). I wonder how Harry would feel if he suddenly found out that his dad was a prince? Probably even more upset with him after those revelations of his dad's behavior inside Snape's memory, I'm guessing. Well, I'm still thinking that the half blood prince is going to be a new character, but if not, I'm rooting for James Potter to be the half blood prince. It would really explain a lot. Diana L. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 08:44:44 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:44:44 -0000 Subject: my favourite HBP picks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103588 "armadillof" wrote: > Ok. Before I solicit my random musings...just some thoughts.... > > 1. LUPIN: > 2. SNAPE: > 3. DUMBLEDORE: > 4. TOM RIDDLE: > 5. RANDOM OOTP CHARACTER: > 6. DADA Teacher: > thoughts? Neri: Here are four additional suggestions: 7. A portrait of a historical figure If this figure is from many years in the past, this will make it much easier to have a real Prince. The HBP could be a true character, which will be a chance to get into this whole business of magical portraits and what they retain from the original person. But the portrait might be merely a nice plot device, such as the Goblet of Fire, without much personality. 8. A ghost in Hogwarts. Very similar to the portrait case. 8. A code word for something A bit like the Order of the Phoenix, where it is not the phoenix who is actually important, but the name is a code for something secret. The HBP could stand for almost anything: a real person (who is not a prince and maybe not even half-blood), an organization, a magical artifact, or whatever. The "Half Blood Prince" could be a word appearing in a secret message (say, the bubblegum message from Alice Longbottom) and much of the plot of Book 7 could be devoted for deciphering who/what does it stand for. 9. The good Slytherin some kid from Slytherin we didn't met before. Being both a Prince (maybe from an old linage that lost its kingdom many years ago, but still retains some status of nobility) and half-blood, AND a slytherin will make for some nice conflicts. Neri From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Jun 30 08:45:20 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:45:20 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favorite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103589 In GOF when they're at the QWC, the whole visual with the wizard wearing a nightgown always cracks me up along with the "I like a nice healthy breeze around my privates" Sen From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 08:47:28 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:47:28 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > Er - sorry, just discovered this discussion after a few days offline - what have I > missed here? Where in the novels does it mention a "half-blood prince"? HunterGreen: JKR announced on her website [jkrowling.com] today (*ahem*, Monday), that the title for book six will be 'Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince'. This title was apparently one of the working titles for Chamber of Secrets: (a quote from the site): "I was delighted to see that a hard core of super-bright fans knew that the real title was once, in the long distant past, a possibility for 'Chamber of Secrets', and from that deduced that it was genuine. Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets', but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information's proper home was book six. I have said before now that 'Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link." Furthermore, in the "news" section of the site, she stated that neither Harry nor Voldemort is the half-blood prince. (which makes me wonder about all these Tom Riddle as the prince theories). From prpa_dbz at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 04:55:31 2004 From: prpa_dbz at yahoo.com (prpa_dbz) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 04:55:31 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103591 Hi, this is my first time posting(actually I just joined). I am of the feeling that the HBP is someone that we haven't seen before, or someone we have only seen in passing. The only other book whose title concerns a character, POA, is about someone we've never even heard of before. Up until POA we never knew who Sirius Black was. JKR also has a way of creating characters that she needs to play a relevant role in one or two books. She created the Crouches for GoF, as well as Moody, and she created Sirius for POA. And TR for CoS. I know that these characters couldn't all have been thrown in during the course of PS or CoS, but she does have the precedent of throwing new characters into the books at will. As I said, I will not be entirely surprised that this HBP is someone we've never heard of, or someone who has, until now, played a minor role. And I'm not quite sure that this Mark Evans kid is someone who will ever play a major role. It just seems wrong that he will be related to Lily, it seems too predictable for JKR's writing. Though JKR never really mentions someone without having them play a role, I don't see Mark Evans as an important role. Of course, I will be the first to eat my own words if Mark is the HBP. Prpa_dbz From sad1199 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 06:33:52 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:33:52 -0000 Subject: New to this but, have opinions. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103592 I think that Snape is the one who will defend and protect Harry until the end. There is a reason that has not been revealed yet. It seems that whenever Harry is in trouble or danger Snape is there but Harry always comes out okay. As for the half blood prince; in The Order of the Phoenix wasn't the prophecy that there were actually two boys born in July; so would it be logical to think that maybe Neville is the half blood prince? Or should I read OP again? Please respond. Thank you. From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jun 30 08:25:24 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:25:24 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103593 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: Just for kicks, here is what Webster's Dictionary has to say on "prince": 1 a : MONARCH, KING b : the ruler of a principality or state 2 : a male member of a royal family; especially : a son of the sovereign 3 : a nobleman of varying rank and status 4 : one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession I thought this might help us clarify potential suspects! imamommy Jospehine now: Very useful! I think we should also include someone who *considers* themselves to be a prince, whether they are officially or not. I mean, it hasn't been clarified that Voldemort was in fact entitled to call himself a 'Lord', he may just have had the ego and self importance to do so. I'm sure Draco would bestow a title as important as 'prince' upon himself if he felt so inclined! Jo Who is sure the HBP is Riddle From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 09:20:33 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:20:33 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103594 prpa_dbz wrote: >>Hi, this is my first time posting(actually I just joined).<< HunterGreen: Welcome to the group.(o; >>I am of the feeling that the HBP is someone that we haven't seen before, or someone we have only seen in passing. The only other book whose title concerns a character, POA, is about someone we've never even heard of before. Up until POA we never knew who Sirius Black was.<< -A slight correction, while we didn't know who Sirius Black was, we had *heard* of him before, he's mentioned in the first chapter of PS/SS. (which really surprised me when I was re-reading it for the first time, and I caught the name Sirius Black...rather clever of her to slip it in two books before he's introduced). >> As I said, I will not be entirely surprised that this HBP is someone we've never heard of, or someone who has, until now, played a minor role.<< Neither will I. In fact, since the HBP (isn't it odd that its being used as an acronym *already*?) isn't Harry or Voldemort, I'm counting on him being a new or barely mentioned character. >>And I'm not quite sure that this Mark Evans kid is someone who will ever play a major role. It just seems wrong that he will be related to Lily, it seems too predictable for JKR's writing. Though JKR never really mentions someone without having them play a role, I don't see Mark Evans as an important role. << I'm not sure how much of a role he'll have, but I'll be *very* surprised if he doesn't appear in the next book. Like Steve said yesterday on a slightly different thread, its very unlikely that two characters with the last name 'Evans' in the same book aren't related, *especially* since one of those characters is a very important character. Also, and this was the clincher for me, is the fact that's he's ten years old, in other words, he'll be eleven at the beginning of the sixth book, perfect age to be starting at Hogwarts. I do agree that he's not likely to be the Half-Blood Prince. For one thing, he's most likely a muggle-born wizard, if he's a wizard at all. From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 09:25:34 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:25:34 -0000 Subject: New to this but, have opinions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sad1199" wrote: >>As for the half blood prince; in The Order of the Phoenix wasn't the prophecy that there were actually two boys born in July; so would it be logical to think that maybe Neville is the half blood prince? Or should I read OP again? << HunterGreen: Neville is a pure-blood, so he couldn't be a *half* blood prince. I don't really think the propechy comes into play here, although it might. Here's a question, do you think the prince is metaphorical or an *actual* prince? I can't remember any references to wizarding royalty, and I can't imagine them caring much about muggle-royalty. ::sighs:: I sort of wish JKR hadn't told us that the prince isn't Harry, then I could have happily assumed it was and gone on thinking that until I had the real answer in my hands. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 09:21:14 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:21:14 -0000 Subject: What shows up in Priori Incantatem? (Was Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103596 "Debra" wrote: [snip] > And then there's that tried and > true question of why nothing came out of the wand that represented > the failed curse. And then, consequently, what *should* have come out > of the wand? Maybe an echo of the lightning bolt scar? > Some of these, probably the Cruciatus Curses, can be attributed to > the screams of pain the wand issued between some of the echoes. But > what happened to the others? I believe that popular opinion is that the screams are indeed the "Cruciatus" echoes. I also think you have hit the nail on the head: what exactly would an echo of an "Imperius" curse look like? Furthermore, what would the echo of a failed "Avada Kedavra" look like? The ones which succeeded produced echoes of the victims; there was no such victim of the failed curse to show. HTH HAND -- Phil From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 09:36:19 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:36:19 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood??????? In-Reply-To: <132.306b5e8e.2e139d21@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103597 Madeyemoody72 wrote: >>> Why is Harry considered a half-blood. If anything he should be a three-quarter blood shoudn't he?<<< Melissa replied: >>That's my opinion on the matter. He has more wizarding blood than Voldemort but not as much as Neville. Although I suspect for JKR's purposes calling him a half blood is well enough.<< HunterGreen: Maybe this is just one of those things that's best not to think about. Before OotP, I didn't think of Harry as a half-blood, because I always figured that half-blood met half muggle and half wizard. I suppose the WW doesn't have any distinctions between muggle-born and actual muggle, which makes me wonder what a child of two muggle-borns would be considered. Would that be a half-blood too? Could that child be considered a 'mudblood'? (I'd guess not). What about a child of a muggle-born and a muggle? I guess there's only three terms: muggle- born, half-blood, or pure-blood, which might be part of the reason the pure-bloods are so desparate to keep themselves that way, since there's no difference between Tom Riddle (who's half-muggle), and Harry (who simply has a muggle-born mother). From mercia at ireland.com Wed Jun 30 09:38:10 2004 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:38:10 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103598 Any takers for Snape as the HBP? I know this is a wild guess and that as head of Slytherin he should presumably be pure blood, but there are maybe inconsistencies in the Slytherin = pure blood thing. Presumably for example Tom Riddle is in Slytherin, though I have been glancing though COS and can't seee his house mentioned. He is certainly heir of Slytherin but he is half blood. It seems to me like a JKR trick to muddy the waters of the pure blood/half blood distinction. (Sorry about the pun.) I do think he will be someone we know and perhaps know well and this will be a revelation that will clarify a lot of other things. It could be what Dumbledore knows about Snape and what makes him trustworthy. My other guess is Malfoy, just because I like the thought of him turning out not so pure blood as he always believed :-) Apologies if these speculations have already been made. I haven't time to go back far through the lists. Mercia From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 09:40:06 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:40:06 -0000 Subject: Release date of book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103599 Today, our local news (in Seattle, WA), ran a very brief bit on JK Rowling's announcement of the 6th book's title appearing on her website. They ran the story on the 5:00pm, 6:30pm and 11:00pm news and each time the anchorwoman said at the end of the piece that the 6th book *will* be coming out NEXT SUMMER. There was no hedging about the announcement, either. No guessing or supposing. It was stated as a known fact that the book is slated to be published next summer. It didn't really strike me what was said until my DH ran in after catching the end of this piece and asking me if he heard what he just thought he heard about book 6. So, is the sixth book really slated for publication next summer? Or are our news anchors jumping the gun? Anyone else hear something like this on their local news? Diana L. (hoping it's true!) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 10:13:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:13:59 -0000 Subject: Lily's blood vs James' blood (was: Harry and the Half Brother Prince) In-Reply-To: <001001c45d80$fcbe8d40$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103600 Sherry wrote : > I keep going back to the fact, that if my father did that to me, I > would never forgive him, no matter what. If he left me with cruel > unloving relations, to hide away ... I'd never forgive that. It > would be a cruelty beyond what I can imagine. I don't see James as > the sort who would willingly turn his son's protection over to > someone else like the Dursleys. Del replies : James would not have given up Harry in order to go and hide, but in order to *protect Harry*. James had just had the most horrible proof that *he*, James, was perfectly UNable to protect Harry. He'd just lost his wife in a battle that didn't even manage to prevent LV from casting an AK on Harry ! So if DD came up to him and told him that there was a *perfect* way to protect Harry until he goes to Hogwarts, I'm pretty sure James would have accepted right away ! To take a real-life example, France's cinema and literature are full of stories of Jewish parents leaving their kids with whoever they could find, in order to protect them, during the WWII. Those parents knew that keeping the kids with them meant almost sure death to the kids. So even when they were aware that the people they were leaving the kids with were not nice people, even when they knew that the kids would suffer with those people, they still left their kids with those people, because they *loved* their kids, and wanted the *best* for them. And when it's a choice between death and mistreatment, then mistreatment is best. Del From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jun 30 10:21:15 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:21:15 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Topics veering off topic (GoF Reduction, favourite line, website clu Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103601 Greetings from Hexquarters! May we just take this opportunity to remind everyone that the place to discuss features of JKR's website itself (as opposed to any potential canon it might contain) is OTChatter, where lots of help with navigation is already available. Please check out the threads there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Equally, although finding out other members' favourite lines is interesting our message volume is really too high to allow posts unless they make a canon point. Please feel free to add your favourite lines into your signature at the bottom of your posts, or transfer the discussion to OTChatter. Whilst we have allowed the thread on Goblet of Fire reduction as it indicates what we all believe to be the most important parts of the book the thread is now veering into Movie discussion, and should therefore be discussed on our movie list, http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie Many Thanks, The List Elves From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 10:33:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:33:39 -0000 Subject: Snape like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103602 Alla wrote : > Even though the end of OoP hints that Snape and McGonagall have > friendly relationship, in my mind Snape has a veeeeeeery long way to > go before he becomes as good a teacher as Minerva is. :o) Del replies : What about 25* additional years of teaching, with that whole LV business finally over, his mysterious secret and dangerous duties gone, and no kid in his class that remind him of his school-years arch-enemy ? Del, who wonders if Snape is now a better teacher than he was when he started, and what McG was like as a brand-new teacher too. * If I remember correctly, McG has been teaching for 39 years, and Snape for 14. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 10:40:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:40:52 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favourite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103603 Two for the price of one: OOTP "The Eye of the Snake" p.406 UK edition A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Ron said, "One person can't feel all that at once, they'd explode." "Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have," said hermione nastily, picking up her quill again. OOTP "Careers advice" p.585 UK edition "I should have made my meaning plainer," said Professor McGonagall, turning at last to look Umbridge directly in the eyes. "He has achieved high marks in all Defence Against the Dark Arts tests set by a competent teacher." Geoff: (struggling to catch up on 150 posts or so which have surfaced between 23:00 yesterday and 11:30 BST today. Why can't the people on the US side of the "pond" go to bed at the same time as us?) :-) From JessaDrow at aol.com Wed Jun 30 10:37:50 2004 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:37:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fav HP line... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103604 My favorite line has to be from SS, when they are trapped in the Devil's Snare: Harry: "So light a fire!" Hermione: "Yes-- of course-- but there's no wood!" Ron: "HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?" That part of the book always has me laughing out loud. :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 10:45:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:45:38 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood??????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madeyemoody72" wrote: Madeyemoody72: > Why is Harry considered a half-blood. If anything he should be a > three-quarter blood shoudn't he? Geoff: Isn't this just a generalisation in speech? My daughter-in-law is one- quarter Swedish but I usually say, whent he topic comes up that she is half-Swedish. Half-blood is really a term to indicate that a person is not totally from wizarding blood. Is there a more general (and acceptable term) which would correlate with describing someone in the real world as Anglo-French or Sino-American for example? From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 11:09:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:09:35 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103606 Alla wrote: > Harry will be lead to believe that Snape did something to betray the > Order, throwing us, readers and our sense of secuyrity of track, but > at the end we will learn that Snape is loyal after all, making t as > Annemehr once said a "clever double bluff" on JKR's part. Potioncat: And it will throw us off track, because some of us will think "Oh, no!" (I certainly did for a few pages in GoF) and others will think "I knew it!" but most of us will be going crazy while it's happening wondering "if". I just hope the recognition of his loyalty and presention of Order of Merlin doesn't happen at the Hogwarts Graveyard at his funeral. Alla: > Have I just defended Snape again? I don't believe myself. :) Potioncat: Yes, you did, better some of us more ardent Snape supporters. Now if Kneasy also starts defending Black, I'll be worried! From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 11:15:57 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:15:57 -0000 Subject: All-Time Favourite HP Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Two for the price of one: > > OOTP "The Eye of the Snake" p.406 UK edition > > A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Ron > said, "One person can't feel all that at once, they'd explode." > "Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't > mean we all have," said hermione nastily, picking up her quill again. > > > OOTP "Careers advice" p.585 UK edition > > "I should have made my meaning plainer," said Professor McGonagall, > turning at last to look Umbridge directly in the eyes. "He has > achieved high marks in all Defence Against the Dark Arts tests set by > a competent teacher." > > Geoff: > (struggling to catch up on 150 posts or so which have surfaced > between 23:00 yesterday and 11:30 BST today. Why can't the people on > the US side of the "pond" go to bed at the same time as us?) :-) Sorry, my book is out on loan, but the best was Fred and George telling Peeves to give Umbridge hell, and his saluting them in return. And Luna referring to Sirius as Stubby Boardman. Fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 11:25:57 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:25:57 -0000 Subject: Is Hgrid the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103608 Theories are running wild on the HBP, so I thought I would throw in my 2 knuts. Why not Hagrid? He is a half giant and wizard. I like the big oaf and would love to see something good happen to him. This is probably too obvious a choice and I need to re-read COS to see if maybe there is someone mentioned that could be this so called HBP Any thoughts on this....I have on my flame-proof clothing and a bowl of murlap essence at the ready! Fran From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 12:04:35 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:04:35 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > Diana L. adds: > > One point, Lupin is not the last surviving Marauder - Pettigrew is > still alive. Pettigrew may as well be dead to his former friends > and Harry, but technically he is still breathing. > Of course you're right, and I thought of that the minute I had sent my post :) But while I think the fact that Harry spared PP will be important, I think PP is _way_ beyond redemption as a champion of the Order's cause, and so is essentially "dead" to his Marauder existence. > I'm interested to what tidbits will be revealed about Lupin, regardless > if Lupin has anything to do with the Half Blood Prince of the title > or not. I agree. Having read the last day's posts, I'm inclined to think GG is the HBP, not Lupin, but that Lupin and his backstory will become central. Having GG be the HBP would make all my worries about what "Prince" means disappear, and I'm thrilled to think that the next book will have lots more on both GG and Lupin. Carin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 12:08:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:08:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's Trustworthiness vrs Crouch!Moody' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103610 Sonja wrote: > Aside from the above topic, I'm am beginning to think Snape will end > up being a traitor to Dumbledore ---- only b/c we have been told so > many times (by Hermione and Dumbledore) that he is on Dumbledore's > side. Harry and Ron have suspected Snape many times only to find > out they were wrong. It seems JKR might be giving us a "false sense > of security." > Potioncat: I think you have a good point. DD appears to have trusted others who were not worthy of it, why not this time as well? And sometimes I wonder if he knows that Snape is not on his side and is using the word trust with a great deal of irony. That is not what I want to believe. (any more than I want to belive in ESE!Lupin, but that has merit as well) So, trusting Snape as I do, I have this obsevation: Professor Moody (Crouch!Moody) shows up at Hogwarts. He's strange, he's intimidating and he gets on the good side of the students right away. He even has them submitting to unforgivable curses. He's cool! After putting Neville through that horrible ordeal, he leaves him feeling confident and appreciated. Turns out he's a real manipulator! Snape's strange. He's intimidating. I'm not sure if even the Slytherins are really comfortable around him. The very ones who agree to the Unforgivables don't trust Snape with poisons and antidotes. He's so mean that Harry can't relax enough around him to learn Occlumency, even though Snape turns down the intensity quite a bit (you didn't notice? Neither could Harry.) The deranged killer is actually trying to protect Harry. (or at least get rid of Harry's enemy.) The kind, caring teacher is a dangerous monster. The mean one looking to punish is really watching out for the students. So the baddies can appear trustworthy at the drop of a hat. Yet it's the scary one who should be trusted. Unless of course it's Umbridge as the Slytherins found out. (Or did they know that all along?) Hogwarts is a scary place! From rtb333 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 12:22:32 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:22:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: Having read the last day's posts, I'm inclined to think GG is the HBP, not > Lupin, but that Lupin and his backstory will become central. Having GG be the HBP > would make all my worries about what "Prince" means disappear, and I'm thrilled to > think that the next book will have lots more on both GG and Lupi Robert Now: I have been following this thread to see if anyone comes to the same conclusions regarding the HBP. I believe that the HBP is Godric Gryffindor. Why? It seems to me that since there was a huge dispute between SS and GG regarding admittence into Hogwarts, SS would bestow onto GG the title of the HBP. This seems to me to be a logical solution. With the information that we have from canon, it is difficult to rationalize another being the HBP. It would be nice to note all of the half bloods that we know about. (Don't forget Seamus) Robert "There is no good and evil. There is only power and those too weak to seek it"-LV PS/SS From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 12:22:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:22:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" (adding a quote) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103612 Carin wrote: > I agree. Having read the last day's posts, I'm inclined to think GG is the HBP, not > Lupin, but that Lupin and his backstory will become central. Having GG be the HBP > would make all my worries about what "Prince" means disappear, and I'm thrilled to > think that the next book will have lots more on both GG and Lupin. > Potioncat: Sorry, I must be thick. I even went upthread to see if I could find the source....but the only GG I know is Gregory Goyle..... Who is GG? Potioncat who likes just about eveything Snape says in Umbridge's office when she calls for Veritaserum, but will choose these two: OoP by Snape: Unless you wish to poison Potter--and I assure you I would have the greatest sympathy with you if you did--I cannot help you. The only trouble is that most venoms act too fast to give the victim much time for truth-telling.... followed by And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little, if Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork, and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your referece if ever you apply for a job. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 12:25:55 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:25:55 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103613 > Alla: > > OK, I used to think that after OoP Snape may betray the Order, I > don't think so anymore. > > It seems that movie no matter how far from canon it is , convinced me > in quite a few things. > > I think that JKR would have vetoed the scene of Snape shielding the > Trio, if he would have to be a traitor after all. > > I was also thinking that Hermione and Dumbledore tell us about > trusting Snape way too many times, BUT I now believe that imaginary > betrayal of the sort is possible. > > Yes, we as the readers are convinced that Harry is wrong in his "he > will never forgive Snape, ever". Everybody will tell Harry that he is > wrong, etc., etc. > > Harry will be lead to believe that Snape did something to betray the > Order, throwing us, readers and our sense of secuyrity of track, but > at the end we will learn that Snape is loyal after all, making t as > Annemehr once said a "clever double bluff" on JKR's part. Neri: I actually think that Snape's loyalty is one of the very few subjects where JKR's original intensions were foiled. She did not predict how popular he will become. I don't remember if there is a poll about this but I believe at least 95% of the group members (even those who don't like him) think he is fighting on the side of good. There are more posts (and not just Pippin's...) suspecting Lupin is ESE than those suspecting Snape. I think JKR have meant to make Snape appear much more suspicious than that, but the readers simply refused to believe that he is really a bad guy. I suspect the whole "DADA jinx" business was originally meant to make Snape look suspicious, as if he is the one who put a curse on the job in order to get rid of his competitors. This scheme of JKR simply didn't work. Most readers just refuse to believe it. This led to a quite absurd situation: the DADA jinx rumor is mentioned in CoS and PoA with clear hints pointing to Snape. For example, Harry in PoA is appalled when Lupin drinks the potion Snape made him, and hints that Snape "will do everything to get the DADA job". In fact, PoA is the book were Snape behaves most horribly out of all the five books, but this still didn't make most readers suspect him. The absurd result is that in GoF and OotP the DADA jinx rumor is not mentioned anymore, not even a word, even though two more DADA teachers had come to a bitter end since then, and you'd think this rumor would be extremely popular. Neri From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 12:27:09 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:27:09 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > Just for kicks, here is what Webster's Dictionary has to say on "prince": > 1 a : MONARCH, KING b : the ruler of a principality or state > 2 : a male member of a royal family; especially : a son of the sovereign > 3 : a nobleman of varying rank and status > 4 : one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of > high standing in his class or profession > > I thought this might help us clarify potential suspects! > Also. look at the form of government practiced in the British Potterverse. They have a Minister of Magic (who is elected), a Wizengamot that seems to mix both legislative and judicial functions (not clear on how they're appointed, although Dumbledore is forced off without a vote by the citizenry at the beginning of Book Five), but no king, no queen, no royal family, no titled peerage or nobleman (unless the titles of the sort that Dumbledore holds - Grand Mugwump, etc. indicate some kind of social rank). The only character with royal pretensions is Lord Voldemort, and even Lord is a pretty modest claim next to Prince or King. My feeling is that the Prince refers to a character from the distant past - most likely Godric Gryffindor. That would explain the CoS connection, when Dumbledore explains the significance of the Sword. And that would also be in line with the gradual "expansion" we get in each book, in which more and more levels of the WW are revealed to us - this time Harry will travel (literally or figuaratively) into Wizardom's distant past to fulfill his quest. - CMC From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 12:35:38 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:35:38 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103615 Jamie wrote: > James and Lily were killed before > the attempt on Harry, Bertha Jorkins (long) after the attempt on > Harry, therefore the Curse That Failed, the cornerstone of the > plot, would have shown up in between these two shadows at > the end of GF-- except nothing did! Interesting! Del replies : And *what* exactly would have shown up ?? We don't see the shadows of the *curses* themselves, but the shadow of their *results*. We hear screams of pain when a Crucio is cast, we see ghosts when people are killed. But we never see or hear the Crucios or the AKs. So what could we expect to see as the shadow of the result of the Curse That Failed ? A scar on a baby's head, the rubble of a destroyed house, Vapormort ? Nope, because all of those things were the result of the *rebound* of the Curse, not the result of the Curse itself. The Curse itself had *no* result. Its only purpose is to kill, it didn't, hence it didn't bring any result. Hence no shadow. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 12:37:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:37:14 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103616 Neri wrote: snip For example, Harry in PoA is > appalled when Lupin drinks the potion Snape made him, and hints that > Snape "will do everything to get the DADA job". In fact, PoA is the > book were Snape behaves most horribly out of all the five books, but > this still didn't make most readers suspect him. snip Potioncat: Interesting...first Alla, now Neri... Now "I'm" starting to suspect Snape! Funny that you mention PoA as Snape's worst. I know he has that fit at the end, but to me he's much worse in GoF. Or perhaps he's at his worst from the fit at the end of PoA to the scene at DD's office toward the end of GoF. (where he appears to delay Harry) Potioncat From luzzatto at via-rs.net Wed Jun 30 04:25:33 2004 From: luzzatto at via-rs.net (MamiBunny) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:25:33 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James Changed again References: Message-ID: <003001c45e5a$4917ca60$2201a8c0@mami> No: HPFGUIDX 103617 Irish wrote: JK's web site has been again. If you go to it now it says that Lily came out of the wand first, then James. I don't know when this change occurred... MamiBunny now: The information in the JKR website at the last week (maybe friday night) I think was different: James, than Lily. Today - - with the changes and updates - - is Lily, then James. Or I?m very confused? This make a very big difference at the plot, of course. If Lily was alone with baby Harry and LV in the GH house when he killed her - - after kill James - - is possible nobody else was there (Snape, Sirius, Wormtail). And there are - in the website - more notes about Dean Thomas that wasn't next week, I think. Maybe I?m wrong. But is possible Dean Thomas, muggle-born, be the prince of half-blood? I?m just wondering (and looking for at CoS tonight). And rereading OotP I found in chapter about Arthur in the St Mungus: the grandmother of Neville says to Harry, Ron and Hermione that both Frank and Alice Longbottom were aurors. So, isn?t possible Neville a half-blood, because a muggle can?t be an auror. Or yes? Cheers MamyBunny (just now that I found two pillars at Hogwarts!) From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 12:38:17 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:38:17 -0000 Subject: Lupin and "Prince" (adding a quote) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103618 > Potioncat: > Who is GG? Godric Gryffindor. (Sorry for the confusion.) - Carin From terrykellynorton at aol.com Wed Jun 30 05:35:43 2004 From: terrykellynorton at aol.com (rhee4aine) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:35:43 -0000 Subject: Lily and James - order of death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103619 Hello to all, since I am new here, I'll attempt not to offend anyone. I looked at Jo Rowling's website a few minutes ago and her new F.A.Q. responses answer this question. James died first, the mix-up was due to editing. Funny how an editing problem drove me crazy for months. rhee4aine From chris at musiccorner.co.uk Wed Jun 30 10:28:57 2004 From: chris at musiccorner.co.uk (Chris) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:28:57 +0100 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince?/ Gildeory. Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <1088588306.3849.52382.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103620 From: "huntergreen_3" : >Furthermore, in the "news" section of the site, she stated that >neither Harry nor Voldemort is the half-blood prince. (which makes me >wonder about all these Tom Riddle as the prince theories). Hi from another newbie, Does JKR treat Tom Riddle as separate to Lord Voldemort.? Could Tom Riddle be the half blood prince and the battle be within. Does anyone know much about Gilderoy? Just a thought as he was in CoS and does regard himself rather highly/ princely even. He may actually manage to get out of St Mungo's with his mind back again. Or Pettigrew. Something was said about in PoA to the fact that Harry was wise to let him live as there is a wizard bond. Could this be the link? Regards Chris ><)))'> http://www.lifeisfun.me.uk From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 12:50:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:50:10 -0000 Subject: What shows up in Priori Incantatem? (Was Re: FAQs: Lily died before James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103621 Debra wrote: > Priori Incantatem supposedly shows, in reverse order, the > spells the wand performed, not the people the wand killed. Why, > then, was there no echo of the intermediate magic VDM performed to > get to various stages on his quest for resurrection? Possibly they > weren't performed with his own wand, but how do you explain the lack > of echo of the Cruciatus and Imperius Curses we saw him perform on > Harry in the graveyard? And the Cruciatus Curses he had undoubtably > performed on Wormtail for disservice, which Harry didn't feel > because the connection was not yet strong enough? And then there's > that tried and true question of why nothing came out of the wand > that represented the failed curse. And then, consequently, what > *should* have come out of the wand? Maybe an echo of the lightning > bolt scar? Del replies : I just replied to that point on another thread, so I'll repeat myself. PI shows, in reverse order, the *results* of the spells that were cast. Not the spells themselves, only the results. We don't hear "Avada Kedavra", we only see the person the curse killed. Similarly, we hear people screaming when a Cruciatus curse is cast, but we don't hear anyone actually saying "Crucio". But there are spells which have no visible and obvious results. What is the result of an Imperius curse, for example ? How do you *show* that people are being controlled ? Same question with a Memory Charm. And I believe it's the same for the failed AK. It produced no result, hence there's no shadow of it. After all, the scar, the rubble and Vapormort are all the result of the *rebound* of the curse, not the result of the curse itself. In and of itself, the failed curse did *nothing*. That's only when it came in contact with Lily's old magic that something happened. Del, who thinks that's why PI isn't used more often : because it's useless in most cases. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 12:44:04 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:44:04 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103622 "peter_jacobi.rm" wrote: [snip] > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? I feel the > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however subtle it is. > After the great revelation the reader should be able to say: > "I should have known!" I've been trying to figure out whether I should have guessed RL was a werewolf before it was revealed. But I haven't been able to spot anything; I certainly couldn't spot any reference to the phases of the moon which might have helped. -- Phil From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 12:36:34 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:36:34 -0000 Subject: HBP - Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103623 Ken and Faith Wallace wrote: [snip] > I'm not one to question JKR, but I just can't believe that we will > actually get all the backstory that we need. I mean, think about it - > there is so much that we want to know Nuff said: distinction to be made between "need" and "want". Look at "Lord of the Rings". You get all you need (and actually rather more) in the original "trilogy in seven parts". But Christopher Tolkein is making a fine (and if I might say worthwhile) living publishing JRRT's earlier versions, and I think he's over the dozen-volume mark by now :-) It's a human thing: you *want* more than you *need*. HTH HAND -- Phil From laurens at leroc.net Wed Jun 30 11:45:42 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:45:42 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jospehine" wrote: > Very useful! I think we should also include someone who *considers* > themselves to be a prince, whether they are officially or not. I > mean, it hasn't been clarified that Voldemort was in fact entitled to > call himself a 'Lord', he may just have had the ego and self > importance to do so. I'm sure Draco would bestow a title as important > as 'prince' upon himself if he felt so inclined! This whole subject has me pondering. The only characters we have who have any kind of title are either ghosts (e.g. Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington (Nearly Headless Nick), The Bloody Baron and Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore (of the Headless Hunt)) or featured in Portraits (Sir Cadogan, and, perhaps the Fat Lady?) There is a conspicuous lack of titles in the modern Wizarding World. Even in the *Noble* (my emphasis) and Most Ancient House of Black, Sirius' mother is refered to as Mrs Black (not Lady Black, or even Madam Black - Madam being frequently used in the WW - Madam Bones, Madam Rosmerta, etc.) and Harry addresses Lucius Malfoy as Mr Malfoy when he returns the Diary in Chamber of Secrets. Up until now, the balance of power seems to lie with the Ministry of Magic - not with any particular wizarding family (although Lucius tries his hardest to influence it, through his considerable donations ;-) ). With the exception of the majority of OOTP, Fudge has always looked to Dumbledore for advice and leadship - which puts DD in a King-like role, which now I come to think of it only emphasises the fact that no such Wizarding King position exists. So I don't think there are any official royal or noble positions or titles in the modern WW. And, so, theoretically anyone could call themselves "Lord" or be termed a "Prince" - particularly if they have *powerful* support. ;-) Lauren. From aniron1982 at yahoo.fr Wed Jun 30 10:58:59 2004 From: aniron1982 at yahoo.fr (aniron1982) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:58:59 -0000 Subject: Snape and Harry/ Neville the HBP? (was: Re: New to this but, have opinions.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sad1199" wrote: > I think that Snape is the one who will defend and protect Harry > until the end. There is a reason that has not been revealed yet. It > seems that whenever Harry is in trouble or danger Snape is there but > Harry always comes out okay. As for the half blood prince; in The > Order of the Phoenix wasn't the prophecy that there were actually > two boys born in July; so would it be logical to think that maybe > Neville is the half blood prince? Or should I read OP again? Please > respond. Thank you. I also think there are some things (issues) that aren't revealed yet concerning Snape and his relationship to Harry. As for your observation on Neville, I don't think he is the HBP. He comes from a wizard family (they feared he was a squib) so he can't be a halfblood. I don' think the HBP has to be linked directly with the prophecy. My first impulse is to say that it could be a character that already has been introduced but not yet fully developped (Seamus Finnigan ??? He already appears in the first movie ??). That theory about James Potter also has some plausibility (but then again JK claims that nor Voldemort, nor Harry are the HBP). So who knows ... it could be a code or something (as someone has said in another thread) ... From kailincj at msn.com Wed Jun 30 12:42:00 2004 From: kailincj at msn.com (Gwen) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:42:00 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA forshadows book 6 and 7. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103626 "cincimaelder" wrote: > JK Rowling says that Cuaron inadvertantly foreshadowed events > from books six and seven in the latest movie. > Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? There are two things I thought of immediately. First is the scene on the bridge with Harry and Lupin, where Lily is mentioned prominently. We've learned much about James so far in the series, but still little about Lily. I think there will be revelations in 6 and 7 based on Lily's backstory. Second is the scene where Sirius 'dies' at the lake and the 'spark of life' begins to leave him. I think that Harry will die at the end of book 7, and we'll see the same spark of life leave his body. BUT... because I really don't think Jo will kill him off for good, I can see Harry being faced with choices again: stay with James, Lily and Sirius, or return to a full life ahead of him. I think he'll choose to live. "Gwen" From caseys_mom at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 05:32:10 2004 From: caseys_mom at comcast.net (yukonpup) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:32:10 -0000 Subject: Favorite lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103627 Ron to Hermione in OoTP "One person can't feel all that at once, they'd explode" Then my favorite, Hermione to Ron "Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have" Laurie in WA From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:12:56 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:12:56 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood??????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103628 > Madeyemoody72 wrote: > >>> Why is Harry considered a half-blood. If anything he should be a > three-quarter blood shoudn't he?<<< > HunterGreen: I guess there's only three terms: muggle- > born, half-blood, or pure-blood, which might be part of the reason > the pure-bloods are so desparate to keep themselves that way, since > there's no difference between Tom Riddle (who's half-muggle), and > Harry (who simply has a muggle-born mother). Jen: Harry would be a full-blood wizard, but not a pure-blood wizard. We're not really given any information how far back you have to go to become 'pure-blood', but I'm sure Lucius knows the magical number ;). I can't remember if full-blood is a term JKR used, or one that was invented around here, but it seems like a good description for someone like Harry with two magical parents. Jen Reese From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Wed Jun 30 12:25:42 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:25:42 -0300 (ART) Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: <20040621171112.77867.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040630122542.98913.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103629 Geo wrote: >> "... I don't think Harry has the power to defeat >> Voldemort. Either way it seems obvious to me that >> he's not going into the final battle alone." Paula : > I'm not so sure about this. Harry's been conjuring a > full Patronus for quite some time now, plus, look what > he's already done to LV when he was still an infant. > It took old Voldy a good 15 years (from Harry's > infancy to OotP) to return to full powers. Wouldn't > sell Harry so short. Rebeka Here: I think too that Harry will be with someone else to face Voldemort in the end. Not because he's nor powerful or just young, but because of the prophecy. I'm probably wrong, but every time I read it, more I become convinced that Harry will need a "weapon" to vanquish the Dark Lord. And this 'weapon' will not be an item, but a person. ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - agora com 100MB de espao, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 13:15:14 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:15:14 -0000 Subject: Sloppy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103630 Confession.... right now Im VERY annoyed with J.K. Am I the only one who spent hours yesterday reading loads of great posts concerning new theories on what happened at GH because of the information on J.K.'s website indicating that Lily actually died before James? There were so many wonderful theories posted on here and people were going crazy on the new possibilities about the events that night. Only to find out that it was sloppy work on J.K.'s side and she corrected (or re-corrected.... - or re-re-corrected) her own information - setting us all back with a feeling of ...... huh? If she did it on purpose (confusing us by deliberately first saying James died first - then chaning it back to Lily died first - only to change it back again to James died first) - then it's not even funny anymore - and it's not fair! Inge From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Wed Jun 30 13:07:16 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:07:16 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630130716.58618.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103631 I am so many posts away (sorry, my job doesn't allow me to keep track of them all faster), so forgive me if I'm repeating something said before. First, I don't think the first chapter is related to the discovery of 'the new magical person'. Her comments about: it was supposed to be the very first chapter of PS, then tried in PoA, then in OotP, but it only fitted in HBP (oh the glory of use this name! :)), they all made me think of what contents these books and chapter were. And then, it hit me: Harry's parents and the Marauders. The 1st chapter of the series tells about Potter's death. PoA takes a great deal with James' friends (and past). OotP again tracks down the Marauders' past. Somehow, I think the 1st chapter of HBP is going to be some sort of remembrance (or something like the 1st chapter of GoF), that will make Harry run away (or be taken away) from Privet Drive fast, very fast. ===== ~Rebeka ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - agora com 100MB de espao, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 12:49:18 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Snape and Harry/ Neville the HBP? (was: Re: New to this but, have opinions.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630124918.52699.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103632 sad1199 wrote: >>I think that Snape is the one who will defend and protect Harry until the end. There is a reason that has not been revealed yet. It seems that whenever Harry is in trouble or danger Snape is there but Harry always comes out okay. As for the half blood prince; in The Order of the Phoenix wasn't the prophecy that there were actually two boys born in July; so would it be logical to think that maybe Neville is the half blood prince? Or should I read OP again? Please respond. Thank you. << I agree with you on all of your points. Neville was born at this time, and his role so far has been only small, but always there. Snape is my favorite character, so this is a hope. He has been there for Harry all the time, and he should be the one to be there in the end. Do you think that the headmaster will be killed off? GBK From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 13:25:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:25:55 -0000 Subject: What does a failed Death Curse look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103633 Jamie wrote: > Maybe it works something like this: what shows up as an echo > from the wand during Priori Incantatem is the shadow of the > visible result of the spell in question: for example, Wormtail's > silver hand, shades of the victims of the AK curse (represented > in the physical world by their corpses), Crouch Jr's Dark Mark at > the beginnning of GF. > > Logically, the visual result(s) of the curse that failed would be at > least two -- Harry's lightening scar and what ever became of > Voldy's body when he was ripped from it. However it is possible > that these visible signs were not caused by the spell itself but by > the initial encounter between Harry and Voldemort? Del replies : Jamie, I completely agree with you, except for your conclusion. I think the scar, the dead body and the destroyed house were simply the results of what happens when someone mixes an inherently evil curse like AK, with an infinitely good charm like the old magic Lily used. Those two should not be mixed, under any circumstances ;-) Del From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:32:04 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:32:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c45ea6$a2769900$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103634 For what it's worth my 1st edition, American hardcover copy of the > > book has Lily then James with "You father's coming..." on pg. 667. I > > assume that The Other Cheryl simply has an earlier printing than I > > do. I mention this soley for completeness. :) > > > > Ernest Sherry The Jim Dale audio recording has James come first, and my Braille copy, which was embossed soon after the release of the book, but I don't know from which hard cover version, also says James. Since the Braille version I have was done in the US, I'm guessing they must have used a US edition. I heard an interview with Jim Dale, after GOF came out, in which he said he was given a few pages at a time to record, never the entire book. The audio version was released as soon as the hard cover, and it doesn't even have a title. He just says, "This is the reading of the fourth book in JK Rowling's Harry Potter series..." Sherry G From ekrbdg at msn.com Wed Jun 30 13:36:01 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:36:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sloppy References: Message-ID: <0a5901c45ea7$305f0720$c2e4f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 103635 Confession.... right now Im VERY annoyed with J.K. Am I the only one who spent hours yesterday reading loads of great posts concerning new theories on what happened at GH because of the information on J.K.'s website indicating that Lily actually died before James? There were so many wonderful theories posted on here and people were going crazy on the new possibilities about the events that night. Only to find out that it was sloppy work on J.K.'s side and she corrected (or re-corrected.... - or re-re-corrected) her own information - setting us all back with a feeling of ...... huh? If she did it on purpose (confusing us by deliberately first saying James died first - then chaning it back to Lily died first - only to change it back again to James died first) - then it's not even funny anymore - and it's not fair! Inge *Kimberly's comment* While I can identify with your frustration (I'm STILL not sure who died first, came out of the wind first, etc.), I can't say I'm annoyed with her. I don't think she did it deliberately and with all of the facts she has to keep straight and details she tends to, I'm not surprised something like this happened. She's human and doesn't have a pensieve to unload her thoughts into therefore, making a mistake is bound to happen. Am I frustrated ? Yes. Do I want to know the truth ? Yes. But I'm going to wait until the dust settles and then check out the latest facts by JKR herself. Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Wed Jun 30 13:44:29 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:44:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley the Half Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040630094038.02bf4b60@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103636 >Mandy wrote: > >If Petunia and Dudley turn out to be magical. That would make >Dudley a >half blood. > >Dudley Dursley the Half Blood Prince. A scary, unexpected but rather >interesting >twist. Not to mention Dudley being one of the only two >people >in the world who are >actually blood related to Harry makes him an >interesting target for Voldemort. > >Cheers, Mandy Now Phil: What would be more humorous than Dudley Dursley as the Half Blood Prince? The book six story could go like this: Harry finds out from his Aunt Petunia that his Evans grandparents were killed by VW so that's why she hates the WW. In a fight between Dudley and Harry, Dudley finally gets angry enough to show signs of his magic ability and he finally gets his letter from Hogwarts. All these years, Petunia has been attempting to keep him from knowing this to protect him. At the start of the year at Hogwarts, the Sorting hat sorts Dudley into Slytherin. He is a first year, and like Hagrid did, towers over his classmates. He tries to intimidate them, But those little eleven year olds can beat him easily by using magic. Eventually, Harry comes to his defense, and Dudley grows to appreciate him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:40:06 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:40:06 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103637 > > Annemehr: > > I'm holding my GoF hardcover in my hands also. I bought it the week > > it was released, and it too says "Your mother's coming..." right on > > p. 667. Also, on the title page, it says "First American Edition, > > July 2000." > > > > Oh, well, at least it seems clear by now that the first copies in > > both the US and UK had James emerging before Lily. Steve/asian_lovr2: > Thanks you so much for posting. Since I now have two separate > unrelated people who are swearing they hold a 'American Edition' in > their hand that says. '...your mother is coming...', I think we can > now take it as an absolute fact. > > The earliest copies of the Scholastic -American Edition originally > matched the first UK edition. James came out of the wand and said > '...your mother's coming...' the Lily appeared; James before Lily. Jen: This is so weird. I have a First American Edition, July 2000, exactly like Annemehr's, with Lily coming out first and telling Harry to hold on for James. Do you think different batches of the First Edition got shipped to different parts of the US? I can't think of any reason why all the First Editions wouldn't match. Unless some were shipped and the rest pulled. Steve/asian_lovr2: > That clears up the books, but JKR's statement on her website still has > no credibility with me any longer. Given that she said it both ways > within a 24 hour period, I can't believe either one. Jen: I don't know what to believe. It's strange that JKR would just make the change overnight like "oops, no one saw that!" She's confusing herself now with all the plot twists! It reminds me of her comment in the Book Day Chat: JK Rowling replies -> "There are loads of things I would change. I don't think any writer is ever completely happy with what they've written. One of these days - once seven is finished - I'll revise all seven books." Jen Reese From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:41:32 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:41:32 -0600 Subject: Evans is book canon (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood pr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c45ea7$f5551600$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103638 Asian_lovr2: Alina is correct. It seems a very strange and an extreme coincidence that the very first time we are given Lily EVANS' lastname is in the same book that a character named Mark Evans is introduced. Certainly Evans is a common name, but would any good author really use that name twice, expecially when in one case it refers to one of the most important and critical characters in the book? Shouldn't any reasonable writer intentionally NOT use the EVANS name again to prevent any confusion or distraction? Sorry, but from my point of view, for two people to appear for the first time in the same book and have the same lastname is just too much of a coincidence. Steve/asian_lovr2 Sherry now: I wonder if JKR has introduced Mark Evans and finally mentioned Lily's last name just to distract us. To throw us off the track as it were. It almost seems too obvious now. I mean, she mentions Mark Evans in passing, then in the pensive memory, James calls Lily by her last name. It's too much of a coincidence, but maybe it isn't as important as it appears it could be. Maybe, mark Evans is a distant cousin and will get his letter and go to Hogwarts, and maybe, that will be all there is to it. Harry can be suitably astonished to have any relations besides the Dursleys, and it could make a difference for future summer holidays, but maybe, beyond that, it means absolutely nothing. And of course, I could turn out to be completely wrong, but my instinct is that Mark may appear at Hogwarts, but other than that it won't be important, and the half blood prince will not have anything to do with him. Hmmm. If he does appear at Hogwarts, I wonder what house he'd be in and if he and Harry would become friends. Ok, age difference, not friends, but at least be friendly. Sherry G From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:44:51 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:44:51 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood??????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103639 > > HunterGreen: > I guess there's only three terms: muggle- > > born, half-blood, or pure-blood, > Jen: Harry would be a full-blood wizard, but not a pure-blood > wizard. We're not really given any information how far back you have > to go to become 'pure-blood', but I'm sure Lucius knows the magical > number ;). > > I can't remember if full-blood is a term JKR used, or one that was > invented around here, but it seems like a good description for > someone like Harry with two magical parents. Jen: Oops, I'm wrong about JKR using the full-blood term, because JKR refers to Harry as 'half-blood' in her World Book Day chat (and in OOTP, which I totally forgot). So Hunter, I think you're right there are only three terms. Although I wonder at what point you cease being a half-blood and become pure-blood? Jen Reese From thrennish at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 13:44:55 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:44:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sloppy In-Reply-To: <0a5901c45ea7$305f0720$c2e4f943@hppav> References: <0a5901c45ea7$305f0720$c2e4f943@hppav> Message-ID: <1ee818a804063006444419acc7@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103640 > *Kimberly's comment* > I don't think she did it deliberately and with all of the facts she has to keep straight and details she tends to, I'm not surprised something like this happened. Thren: She is human, but she very deliberately said James came out of the wand first was right- the original was right. Now, I'm not going to fault her for a mistake, which was fixed in later editions. And I won't fault her for setting it straight again. But I *will* be really frelling annoyed when the corrected correction is corrected again. Yes, it's confusing, but really. And it's not just that was was changed back to Lily came out of the wand first again- it's that the rest of the text still explains why it is that Lily=first out of wand was *wrong* in the first place. Make up your damn mind! Grumbly yours, Thren -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 09:46:33 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:46:33 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: <1db.25391f0e.2e137603@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103641 Cora writes: > This is why Voldemort settled on Harry rather than Neville as > the child of the prophecy. Voldemort identified with the > Half Blood as he himself is a Half Blood. Personally I think the > HBP is Tom Riddle. Neil wrote: > That would be rather a dirty trick on the part of Rowling. I doubt > she would say that the HBP was neither Harry nor Voldemort and then > make it Tom Riddle. After all Tom and Voldemort are the same person. I tend to agree with you, I like other options better (Godric Griffindor, Hagrid, Lupin), but didn't Dobby differentiate between Voldemort and Tom Riddle in COS when trying to give Harry a clue? "not...not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, sir..." The Other, Other Cheryl From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 13:51:32 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:51:32 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103642 In our quest to find the prince, we seem to have overlooked the King. The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know, both from FB and from the page found in Hermione's petrified hand, that the basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... Drum Roll, please... Yes, Trevor is the HBP. Thank you. Hold down the applause, please, you'll wake the neighbours. Ginger, noting that with Arthur's schedule of blood replacement potions in OoP, he could well have been half-blooded at that time. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:02:26 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:02:26 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > We also know, both from > FB and from the page found in Hermione's petrified hand, that the > basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > Ginger, noting that with Arthur's schedule of blood replacement > potions in OoP, he could well have been half-blooded at that time. Lord help me, but Fudge is chicken, Umbridge is a toad, and as Fudge is the chief executive of the wizarding world he is somewhat analogous to a king (loosely, granted) which would make any children of his princes. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:03:23 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:03:23 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Half_Blood_Prince_(was_my_favorite_HBP_picks=85)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103644 James "Slurdodger" wrote: > Salazar Slytherin was undoubtedly an incredibly powerful and > important wizard too regardless of his unfortunate lineage, so much so > he might be touted as "The Halfblood Prince". Del replies : ... And the King of Hypocrites then ! Remember, Slytherin is the one who started that whole pure-blood business ! LV himself denied his Muggle-side in order to fit into Slytherin's philosophy. I imagine that Bella's horror at discovering that her beloved LV is a half-blood would be NOTHING compared to LV's horror when discovering that his idol Slytherin was a half-blood... Nope, sorry, it just doesn't work for me. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 14:09:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:09:16 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103645 Ginger wrote: snip > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > Drum Roll, please... > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP.snip Potioncat: Someone asked a question about Trevor and his life-span not long ago..perhaps a few hundred posts by now...just so happens the Washington Post ran an article about toads (and how English gardeners make houses for them.) Toads live 30--40 years. Now, I wonder if this is Trevor's first time at Hogwarts? Potioncat From armadillof at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:05:54 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:05:54 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: <20040630130716.58618.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103646 Rebeka Gomes wrote: > And then, it hit me: Harry's parents and the > Marauders. The 1st chapter of the series tells about > Potter's death. PoA takes a great deal with James' > friends (and past). OotP again tracks down the > Marauders' past. Somehow, I think the 1st chapter of > HBP is going to be some sort of remembrance (or > something like the 1st chapter of GoF), that will make > Harry run away (or be taken away) from Privet Drive > fast, very fast. Hey! *very* excited you brought this one into the light... I think you're definitely on to something (though that's my opinion...) I think the opening of book 6 will sort of resemble GoF. Harry's mind has not yet been closed to Voldemort...he has not mastered Occlumency. In his sleep I think Harry's going to relive the attack in Godric's Hollow....or some form of it maybe. Voldemort is ANGRY. He has just been exposed to the wizarding world, EVERYONE KNOWS HE IS ALIVE. It will be TRAUMATIC, and Harry cannot stay with anyone that does not understand. Harry will be under the guardian of Lupin. (Or the Weasleys...could start setting up Ginny & Harry...but enough shipping...) Harry needs to find out about his father and mother from the one person alive (in the wizarding world) that knew them best. Lupin. There's a lot he knows that he has not yet told us...... I am soooooooo excited. (Maybe we'll have to wait until the 7th book to find out what Dudley's worst memory was...) AF :) From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 14:17:13 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:17:13 -0000 Subject: The weapon (Re: Harry'sPowers) In-Reply-To: <20040630122542.98913.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes wrote: > I think too that Harry will be with someone else to > face Voldemort in the end. Not because he's nor > powerful or just young, but because of the prophecy. > I'm probably wrong, but every time I read it, more I > become convinced that Harry will need a "weapon" to > vanquish the Dark Lord. And this 'weapon' will not be > an item, but a person. "K": I'm so glad you brought this up. I've always thought this whole 'weapons' business was a bit too fishy. I don't necessarily believe the weapon was an item either. Care to tell us the name of the person you believe to be the one who will help Harry? ^-^ From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jun 30 14:20:03 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:20:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? Message-ID: <130.30f4ee89.2e142613@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103648 In a message dated 6/29/2004 11:43:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lynx412 at AOL.com writes: > 2nd cousin who's an accountant Oops; that's stockbroker, not accountant. My bad. Still, I think a case can be made for Arthur as the 'half-blood prince'. Another thought I had last night...maybe the HBP in the 6th book is not the same one the title referred to in CoS. There I suspect Dean, given her comments on her website, but in the new book, perhaps she's given the title to someone else. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:27:46 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:27:46 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103649 > Potioncat: > Interesting...first Alla, now Neri... > > Now "I'm" starting to suspect Snape! Neri: I believe this is called "reverse psychology" or something similar ;-) > Potioncat: > Funny that you mention PoA as Snape's worst. I know he has that fit > at the end, but to me he's much worse in GoF. Or perhaps he's at his > worst from the fit at the end of PoA to the scene at DD's office > toward the end of GoF. (where he appears to delay Harry) Neri: You are right, but I tend to treat each book separately, as I suspect many readers do. In the end of each book DD acquits Snape of the blame, except than in CoS and PoA. But in CoS Snape doesn't do anything that needs acquitting (except of being his usual unpleasant self) and he even gets some points for antagonizing Lockhart. In GoF he is suspected of being the bad guy, but not more so than Bagman or Karkaroff, and the bad guy turns out, in a spectacular way, to be Crouch!Moody. Then Snape makes the noble gesture of showing Fudge his dark mark, and DD says he trusts him as he trusts Sirius and sends him for some secret dangerous mission. But throughout PoA Snape is contrasted with the pleasant and unassuming Lupin. Snape starts PoA by tormenting Neville, which in my book at least is much worse than tormenting Harry, and then tries quite convincingly to hand an innocent man to be executed by the dementors. The "fit" is only recapping it. Then DD fails to acquit him, and he ends the book by exposing Lupin in an ugly way. But even after PoA most readers (including myself) still believed that Snape is on the side of good, so it doesn't look like JKR will ever manage to make him appear really suspicious. We'll just think it is more red herrings. The funny thing is that I don't think JKR had planned it that way. It took her three books to realize that making Snape appear bad only makes him more popular. Neri From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:36:17 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:36:17 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103650 >Ginger wrote: > In our quest to find the prince, we seem to have overlooked the > King. The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know, both from > FB and from the page found in Hermione's petrified hand, that the > basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > Drum Roll, please... > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP. > > Thank you. Hold down the applause, please, you'll wake the > neighbours. Neri : Yes! And you forgot to mention that a toad MUST be an enchanted prince! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 14:41:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:41:36 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103651 > Neri: snip . In the end of each book DD acquits Snape of the > blame, except than in CoS and PoA. Potioncat: I see what you mean. I hadn't thought of that. Neri: snip But even after PoA most readers > (including myself) still believed that Snape is on the side of good, > so it doesn't look like JKR will ever manage to make him appear > really suspicious. We'll just think it is more red herrings. > > The funny thing is that I don't think JKR had planned it that way. It > took her three books to realize that making Snape appear bad only > makes him more popular. > Potioncat: I probably snipped your points too close, but I see what you were saying earlier. In PoA he seemed more like the bad guy, than in GoF where he was just the mean guy. And as I was already making excuses... erm explanations.... for his behavior in PoA, I saw GoF as worse. (Still can't get a handle on "I see no difference.") I agree, I don't think she expected anyone to see a glimmer of good in Snape. It would be interesting to see what kids think of him or what more casual readers than this group think of him. Unfortunately, there are also those who think Draco and Lucius are OK, and that does scare JKR. Potioncat (who will add that my 14 year old thinks Snape is very frightening, but she's a movie fan, not a book fan.) From marydianne3123 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 14:54:35 2004 From: marydianne3123 at yahoo.com (marydianne3123) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:54:35 -0000 Subject: Royality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103652 While rereading OoP, in chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, There was a comment made by Sirius to Harry that caught my eye. On page 111 US ed. Sirius said, "Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal... my idiot brother, soft enough to believe them..that's him." Then a little wile lateer we are introduced to a book called Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy. I believe that Harry , going back to headquarters will come acroos this book again and in there find the answer to all our questios about this Prince. Any takers? marydianne3123 From scb1066 at adelphia.net Wed Jun 30 14:58:13 2004 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:58:13 -0000 Subject: Sloppy In-Reply-To: <1ee818a804063006444419acc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Thren Summers wrote: > > *Kimberly's comment* > > I don't think she did it deliberately and with all of the facts she has to keep straight and details she tends to, I'm not surprised something like this happened. Plus, I have to believe that, whatever the order actually is, it must be irrelevant to the story line. If it were as critical as everyone is making it out to be, I'd have a hard time believing it would have been the subject of so many errors. Little Green Party Hats From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:09:18 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:09:18 -0000 Subject: funny quote Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103654 Hey everyone, I know this is a bit off-topic but I was reading part of Goblet of Fire last night and came across this quote that made me laugh. My three sisters and I are obsessed with HP and I always share the theories that I read on here with them and they always make fun of me for it, especially Ron=Dumbledore, but anyways here's the quote: "'Okay... how's this for a theory,' said Ron excitedly. 'Krum attacked Crouch--- no, wait for it--- and then he stunned himself!'"(564 US hardcover). now the part about krum and crouch isn't so important, but the idea of Ron coming up with wild theories is a bit reminiscent of this page! Like i said, i couldn't help laughing when i read it and thought you all might enjoy it! Janelle From afleitas at bankrate.com Wed Jun 30 15:15:42 2004 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:15:42 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103655 Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we know are dead). Now, of course, another explanation coudl be that one or more of his brothers has died, but as we haven't been introduced to them, they are not very likely to be killed in books 6 or 7 (although anything is possible). If they died in the previous war, there really is no reason for JKR not to give us this information, as she does regarding Molly's realtives that were killed. Anyone? Kneazelkid From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed Jun 30 15:19:27 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:19:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Half_Blood_Prince_(was_my_favorite_HBP_picks=85)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103656 Being that JKR has said that the Half Blood Prince is nether Harry or LV then most likely this 'Half Blood Prince' will be a new character. In every book she has introduce new characters and I doubt that HBP will be different in that regard. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jun 30 15:21:52 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:21:52 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103657 Caius Marcius wrote: > look at the form of government practiced in the British > Potterverse. They have a Minister of Magic (who is elected), a > Wizengamot that seems to mix both legislative and judicial functions, > but no king, no queen, no royal family, no titled peerage or nobleman. The only character with > royal pretensions is Lord Voldemort, and even Lord is a pretty modest > claim next to Prince or King. > > My feeling is that the Prince refers to a character from the distant > past - most likely Godric Gryffindor. I like this line of reasoning, but wonder if, rather, the HBP (sounds like a Croatian political party, doesn't it) was a prominent person who put Gryffindor's entrance policy to the test. One can envisage Slytherin grudgingly and nervously accepting half- blood or muggle-born students as long as they were commoners who could be made to understand the point of secrecy. If, then, someone who was, say the son of a Muggle king (we don't know when Hogwarts was founded but it could easily have been in the period when Britain was several kingdoms) and a witch, showed magical ability, that would present much more problems for Hogwarts. Such a person would be a power in his own land, and schooling at Hogwarts (quite possibly effectively in a foreign country) might not go unnoticed. He might also have political ideas of his own that would upset the delicate balance between Gryffindor and Slytherin, even the basis for wizarding concealment generally. In such a situation, one can imagine Slytherin putting his foot down, and refusing to accept such a high profile student, leading to the final break with the other founders. It is also easy to see how JKR might have outlined such a scenario in the COS backstory, and then pulled it in favour of the vaguer history provided by Binns. Finally, one can speculate on the Bloody Baron. He could have been Slytherin's hired assassin, who murdered, or tried to murder, the HBP. He could *even* be the HBP himself: a son of royalty, particularly if illegitimate, could well have had a lesser title. David From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:31:40 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:31:40 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103658 Ali wrote: > My favourite hunch is > that Petunia agrees to take Harry in as long as Dudley doesn't know > that he is a wizard. > > Now, I know that there has been much debate surrounding the person > who will find magic late in life, my favourite candidates have only > ever been Petunia and Dudley. But, there are > potentially large repercussions for Harry if either Petunia or > Dudley finds an ability to do magic. > > Supposing, we see Harry at last > trying to get his own back on Dudley only to find Dudley pushed to > the limit and responding with magic? Eustace_Scrubb: I think JKR said the person who finds he/she can do magic late in life will do so under "desperate circumstances." (sorry don't have the exact citation but I'm certain she used a phrase close to this) While Dudley may feel that being threatened by Harry fits that phrase, I doubt that JKR would have termed it so--unless Harry has truly lost it and is really going to try an Unforgiveable on his cousin, which I can't see happening. I also favor either Petunia or Dudley as the late-blooming witch/wizard, but I suspect the talent will appear as a result of an attack by Death Eaters--who will not be expecting any magical defense. (I doubt that spontaneous magic will do much good against LV himself or Dementors, but given that many of the DEs seem to be a brick shy of a load I think a late-blooming Dursley stands a chance of thwarting them.) Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From marydianne3123 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:07:38 2004 From: marydianne3123 at yahoo.com (marydianne3123) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:07:38 -0000 Subject: Royality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103659 I just thought of something. Somewhere, I can't remember where, it was stated that there would be a "nice" Slytherin. Suppose that it turns out to be Mark Evans. And that he is indeed a cousin of Harry's? Intresting plot twist HUH? marydianne3123 From jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 15:25:51 2004 From: jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com (slurdodger) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:25:51 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103660 The Other, Other Cheryl wrote: > ...didn't Dobby differentiate between > Voldemort and Tom Riddle in COS when trying to give Harry a > clue? "not...not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, sir..." Technically, Harry asked Dobby if the "plot" had anything to do with "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" - and Tom Riddle can be named. If Harry had asked if the plot had anything to do with Voldemort, I expect Dobby's answer would be different (although he probably couldn't answer such a question without tearing out his left eyeball). -James, who does not believe that Voldemort is the half-blood formerly known as Prince. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 15:09:23 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:09:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103661 I'm not sure I agree JK made a mistake or didn't realise Snape's impact. After all, if in book after book Harry & co suspect that Snape is bad only for him to be proved good, would it not get really silly? You can only cry wolf so many times before people stop believing you. I think the 'shift' towards Snape being seen as more firmly on the good side is simply that he has consistently proved himself to be, despite his many other faults. Unless new information emerges showing that he's been a spy the whole time or something, the characters are accepting that fact for now - it's not because JK realised people liked Snape more than she expected or whatever. "pandrea100" From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:49:59 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:49:59 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103662 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > I also favor either Petunia or Dudley as the late-blooming > witch/wizard, but I suspect the talent will appear as a result of an > attack by Death Eaters--who will not be expecting any magical defense. > (I doubt that spontaneous magic will do much good against LV himself > or Dementors, but given that many of the DEs seem to be a brick shy of > a load I think a late-blooming Dursley stands a chance of thwarting > them.) Sophierom: Absolutely! And, though it's probably been mentioned before, such an attack would be a good plot device for getting Harry out of Privet Drive quickly. Supposedly this summer is to be his shortest stay yet, and imagine if DEs breached the Dursley household. I would think any hope of blood protection would disappear. But, I wonder if this will happen in the opening of Book 6? I still like the idea that the opening chapter will be a bit of backstory on James and Lily, perhaps the day that they die. I tell you what, if the first chapter is the story of their deaths, and the second chapter is Dudley fighting off DEs, this will be the most exciting book yet, and that's saying a lot! Then, imagine the humor ... Dudley is forced to go to Hogwarts for his last two years. Whatever will Vernon say! How will Dudley cope? How will Harry cope? :-) Do I think this will all happen? Probably not. But hey, what's a girl to do in the intervening [x] years until the book comes out? From jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 15:22:20 2004 From: jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com (slurdodger) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:22:20 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! -- Alternatively... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103663 Ginger "quigonginger" wrote: > In our quest to find the prince, we seem to have overlooked the > King. The basilisk is the King of Serpents. If you want to look at it that way.. then we have another king. The most popular chant in OotP goes along the lines of "Weasley is our King". This leads me to the conclusion that Hermione has a bun in the oven! Perhaps those letters I sent to JK asking her to tackle the subject of teen pregnancy were read after all! -James, who firmly believes that Ron is now the rightful King, after succesfully defeating the life-sized wizard chess monarch From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:54:50 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:54:50 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Let me re-enforce the rumor that the scene where Harry's parents were > being killed in the movie 'Sorcerer's Stone', JKR insisted that they > NOT show James in that scene. Please can you tell me where she was quoted as saying that? I distinctly remember reading it just as you say prior to the release of the first movie yet when I mentioned it here in one of my earliest posts I was flamed mercilessly. I've been unable to find the exact source although I'm guessing it was in the Time magazine article for a couple of reasons. 1 being that at the time I had a subscription to Time and 2 being when I went to their website to research that particular issue it was a Pay-per-view-issue only and I refuse to pay to read an article from a magazine I'd already bought and paid for. So out of the *hundreds* of quotes and interviews I searched for (Rowling, Columbus, Kloves) that excerpt I was unable to read the very article in which I'm 99% sure her comments as to the (non) whereabouts of James during the filming of that scene remain--behind a locked door. If you have that quote I'd LOVE to see it again. If only to reassure myself that I did, indeed, read it. I'm sure it was actually Columbus who said it, might have been Kloves speaking *of* Rowling's insistance--but there was definitely insistance that James NOT be shown at GH. Thanks. Mel From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 15:51:38 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630155138.82978.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103665 Ali wrote: > My favourite hunch is that Petunia agrees to take Harry in as long > as Dudley doesn't know that he is a wizard. > > Now, I know that there has been much debate surrounding the person > who will find magic late in life, my favourite candidates have only > ever been Petunia and Dudley. But, there are potentially > large repercussions for Harry if either Petunia or Dudley finds an > ability to do magic. > > Supposing, we see Harry at last trying to get his own back > on Dudley only to find Dudley pushed to the limit and responding > with magic? now griffin782002: I too believe the idea that Dudley or Petunia might develop magic powers. I believe the attack in the first chapter of OotP is important. I actually think that Dudley could see the Dementors, well at he saw the effects and since Muggle can't see them, I wonder if they can see the effects of their presence. J.K.R. created them to 'demonstrate' the feelings of someone that suffers from depression. I how how it feels but you feel 'cold' and 'numb' inside you, not outside. I wonder if it has any importance. From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:04:42 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:04:42 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marydianne3123" wrote: > While rereading OoP, in chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House > of Black, There was a comment made by Sirius to Harry that caught my > eye. On page 111 US ed. Sirius said, "Because I hated the whole lot > of them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to > be a Black made you practically royal... my idiot brother, soft > enough to believe them..that's him." Then a little wile lateer we are > introduced to a book called Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding > Genealogy. I believe that Harry , going back to headquarters will > come acroos this book again and in there find the answer to all our > questios about this Prince. Any takers? > > marydianne3123 Excellent post, I just think you missed the most important point. Regulus Black! As I already posted in msg.# 103435 Regulus is the latin diminutive of rex, meaning little king. There you have your prince! Just need to find a way around the fact that Regulus is obviuosly not a halfblood. Clio From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jun 30 16:08:14 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:08:14 -0000 Subject: Moving to Sirius? (was: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103667 I wrote: > > I don't think anyone was or could questioning Sirius' loyalty. > > It more the fact that Siurus Black was an immature, petulant, > > selfish, arrogant, hypocritical, angry, sad and lonely boy who never really grew up that's often discussed by those of us who really don't like him. > > Of course, that is what makes Sirius such a fascinating character, along with Snape. It's their faults that make them so intriguing. > > > > Kneasy wrote: > Dear, oh dear, oh dear. > Not question Sirius's loyalty? No problem at all. It might take me a > couple of days to find the time to compose the post, so in the > meantime, just as a taster, try post 79808 - Sirius Reservations > and the thread that follows. > Mandy again: I should have been much more specific. I don't think anyone could question Sirius loyalty to James Potter, and only James Potter. But if you can, I'd love to hear it. Sirius bears no loyalty to anyone else other than his deceased best friend. He disregards the orders and advise of all those who have his best interests at heart; DD, the Order, Lupin, Molly and even Harry, when Harry won't do what Sirius wants. No one is of any importance to Sirius Black unless they are in some way connected to James Potter in a sycophantic and desperate hold on to the past. I actually don't blame Sirius for being that way. Stay with me on this, I'm not trying to excuse him. ;-) Sirius is the product of his environment. The only time in his life he was truly happy was during his time at Hogwarts and living with James, and to go from that into war and captivity for 13 years does not allow a person to grow up in a so called `normal' way. But, I do blame him for his actions during the course of OotP. Granted, Sirius is crippled emotionally and intellectually, incapable at times of making rational decisions, but he is surrounded by a legion of friends and colleagues who are desperately trying to assist him to do the right thing, and he disregards all of them at some point during OotP. Why? None of them are God.....I'm sorry I mean James Potter. Sirius has no excuse for his behavior which is destructive and harmful to our hero. Sirius Black needed to either step-up and take responsibility for his faults, or get out of the way. Thank goodness he got out of the way. And imo I think that deep down inside Sirius, he relished the though of dieing as a way to finally be where he belongs, back at James' side. Cheers Mandy From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 16:08:55 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:08:55 -0000 Subject: Arthur is DEAD? + HP Fav Lines E-Mail to Brenda!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103668 >>> Kneazelkid wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur > dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look > under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur > Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we > know are dead). Bren now: Err? I thought it was canon from OoP that Arthur will be the Minister of Magic at the end of series? (Ron jokingly says something to the effect of "chance of that happening is the same as my dad becoming MoM"). Surely, the Wizards aren't give this title posthumously?!?! OH, and sorry, going off-topic for a second (Sorry Elves -- I'll try my best to restrain my off-topic fingers, I promise!!) IF ANYONE wants to submit MORE "All-Time HP Favorite Lines", please email them to me (to the address shown above, " agent_maxine_is at hotmail.com ")!! THank you for your interest!! --------- From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:18:35 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:18:35 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince/Mudblood Revolt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103669 Now that JKR has revealed the name of Book 6, it's interesting to look back on at least one of the previously contending titles. In 2003, CBBC Newsround reported that Seabottom Productions, a firm with the same address as Warner Brothers' lawyers in the UK, had registered the name "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt." Now we know that this _isn't_ the title, but it's not quite the same as a title made up by a fan on a whim or as a hoax. It was either a real possibility for use by JKR _or_ was floated to keep us all guessing. In conjunction with the actual title revealed by JKR and confirmed by her agents yesterday, it may be interesting to consider "Mudblood Revolt." After all, "mudblood" is a pejorative for "half blood." Revolts, historically, have often been directed either at or by princes/royalty/nobles. Does the "half blood prince" lead a revolt of mudbloods? against whom? the Magical establishment (MoM?)? LV and the Death Eaters? the Hogwarts establishment? Is the half blood prince the target of a revolt? This may have no significance, but then again, it may be a clue... Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 16:17:09 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:17:09 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103670 >>> Mel wrote: > Please can you tell me where she was quoted as saying that? I > distinctly remember reading it just as you say prior to the release > of the first movie yet when I mentioned it here in one of my > earliest posts I was flamed mercilessly. I've been unable to find > the exact source although I'm guessing it was in the Time magazine > article for a couple of reasons. Bren now: Mel, are you sure that quote (JKR asking James not shown in GH scene in PS movie) was from the TIME magazine? If this particular TIME issue was released around November 2001 then Ihave the article, though I don't recall such line. But I'll check it for you anyways. Bren From Hines57 at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 16:01:33 2004 From: Hines57 at comcast.net (hines571) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:01:33 -0000 Subject: What about Theodore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103671 I was just reviewing some things on the JKR website, when I found something that I never even considered before. Think about Theodor Nott, the young Slytherin barely mentioned in the books, but who was brought up. His father was one of the DE's that got injured in OotP. I know this might lead some people to believe that he can't be Half- blood, but what kind of blood are we questioning? Often times royalty only marries royalty or nobility. So there is a possibility that Theodore (who is now being raised by widower father) had a mother who was not royalty and a father who was. Look at the way she speakes about Nott: "As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott than HAS ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who DOES NOT FEEL THE NEED TO JOIN GANGS, including Malfoy's." JKR (emphasis mine) --She says Has ever appeared, not meaning will ever, but meaning hasn't yet. Nott doesn't feel the need to join gangs, like he has enough self confidence on his own.-- "we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers a real equal, and he is FORCED to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer." JKR (emphasis mine) --Theodore is pure-blooded wizard, but his royalty is only half-blooded. Regardless he is still a prince and Malfoy is forced into respecting him, rather than demean him as he does everyone else.-- The last link that we can establish as to how the revelation of Theodore Nott only fits into book six, is the events of book five. Theodore's father is the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of 'Order of the Phoenix'. Seeing that Theodores father is his only parent, who is going to raise him now? With his father gone, Theodore has to take his rightful place as the Prince, someone has to rule the throne, because although still living, the King is in Azkaban. anyone? Ryan S. From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:36:49 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:36:49 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: <20040630155138.82978.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103672 Ali wrote: > > > My favourite hunch is that Petunia agrees to take Harry in as long > > as Dudley doesn't know that he is a wizard. > > Now griffin782002: > > I too believe the idea that Dudley or Petunia might develop magic powers. I believe the attack in the first chapter of OotP is important. I actually think that Dudley could see the Dementors, well at he saw the effects and since Muggle can't see them, I wonder if they can see the effects of their presence. J.K.R. created them to 'demonstrate' the feelings of someone that suffers from depression. I how how it feels but you feel 'cold' and 'numb' inside you, not outside. I wonder if it has any importance. Now Eustace_Scrubb: A month or so ago(I should keep track of my message #s, I know), there was a related thread. When the Dementors enter the alley in OoP, _both_ Harry and Dudley are affected in pretty much the same way. Dudley says he can't see. As for Harry, "darkness pressed on his eyes like a weightless veil" and he turned "his sightless eyes left and right." Now at some point (Sirius in POA?) someone tells Harry that muggles can't see dementors but they are nonetheless affected by them. But as Harry also experiences the loss of sight, Dudley's inability to see the dementors does not rule out his being a "repressed" wizard. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:37:22 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:37:22 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur > dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look > under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur > Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we > know are dead). > > Now, of course, another explanation coudl be that one or more of his brothers > has died, but as we haven't been introduced to them, they are not very likely > to be killed in books 6 or 7 (although anything is possible). If they died in the > previous war, there really is no reason for JKR not to give us this information, > as she does regarding Molly's realtives that were killed. > > Anyone? > > Kneazelkid Antosha: Uh, last time I looked, George and John had passed away, but Paul still isn't dead. ;-) Molly is referred to in the web site in the past tense: "Molly *was* Molly Prewett." I think in both cases JKR is simply using the past tense to refer to the Weasleys's youth. I think it's stretching to read much more into it. Besides, like others, I'm counting on Arthur serving as Minister of Magic at least for a while... From irishwynch at aol.com Wed Jun 30 16:42:55 2004 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:42:55 EDT Subject: Neville the HBP? (was: Re: New to t... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103674 sad1199 wrote: >> As for the half blood prince; in The Order of the Phoenix wasn't the prophecy that there were actually two boys born in July; so would it be logical to think that maybe Neville is the half blood prince? Or should I read OP again? << Marla: But one very important thing you're forgetting is that Neville is a pure blood, so how could he be the HBP? Marla From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:52:47 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:52:47 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103675 > > While rereading OoP, in chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House > > of Black, There was a comment made by Sirius to Harry that caught > my > > eye. On page 111 US ed. Sirius said, "Because I hated the whole lot > > of them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to > > be a Black made you practically royal... my idiot brother, soft > > enough to believe them..that's him." Then a little wile lateer we > are > > introduced to a book called Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding > > Genealogy. I believe that Harry , going back to headquarters will > > come acroos this book again and in there find the answer to all our > > questios about this Prince. Any takers? > > > > marydianne3123 > > Excellent post, I just think you missed the most important point. > > Regulus Black! > > As I already posted in msg.# 103435 Regulus is the latin diminutive > of rex, meaning little king. There you have your prince! Just need to > find a way around the fact that Regulus is obviuosly not a halfblood. > > > Clio Hmmmmm. We know from JKR (I believe the World Book Day web-chat) that Regulus is dead--really dead. But what if he had children with a muggle??? Might not the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black pass to this.... (wait for it) half blood prince? From afleitas at bankrate.com Wed Jun 30 16:54:32 2004 From: afleitas at bankrate.com (kneazelkid) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:54:32 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103676 "kneazelkid" wrote: Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we know are dead). Now, of course, another explanation coudl be that one or more of his brothers has died, but as we haven't been introduced to them, they are not very likely to be killed in books 6 or 7 (although anything is possible). If they died in the previous war, there really is no reason for JKR not to give us this information, as she does regarding Molly's realtives that were killed. Anyone? Antosha: Molly is referred to in the web site in the past tense: "Molly *was* Molly Prewett." Besides, like others, I'm counting on Arthur serving as Minister of Magic at least for a while... Kneazelkid again: But it says Molly "was" Prewett, because she WAS Prewett. She is no longer a Prewett, so that example doesn't stand up. As far as Arthur being Minister of Magic -- that is not cannon, just a guess (I know you didn't say it was cannon, a previous poster did). Ron has made lots of sarcastic remarks -- some of which come true, so of which don't. Asdie from that, there is no reason tha Arthur couldn't become Minister, then get killed. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:54:47 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:54:47 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103677 > Sophierom: > > Absolutely! And, though it's probably been mentioned before, such an > attack would be a > good plot device for getting Harry out of Privet Drive quickly. > Supposedly this summer is > to be his shortest stay yet, and imagine if DEs breached the Dursley > household. I would > think any hope of blood protection would disappear. > > But, I wonder if this will happen in the opening of Book 6? I still > like the idea that the > opening chapter will be a bit of backstory on James and Lily, perhaps > the day that they die. > I tell you what, if the first chapter is the story of their deaths, > and the second chapter is > Dudley fighting off DEs, this will be the most exciting book yet, and > that's saying a lot! > Then, imagine the humor ... Dudley is forced to go to Hogwarts for > his last two years. > Whatever will Vernon say! How will Dudley cope? How will Harry cope? > :-) Do I think this > will all happen? Probably not. But hey, what's a girl to do in the > intervening [x] years until > the book comes out? SOF: If it were as easy as killing Petunia, surely this move would have been made years ago. I think the blood charm must work both ways, protecting both Petunia and Harry from attack. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed Jun 30 16:56:01 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:56:01 -0000 Subject: Harry'sPowers(was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: <20040630122542.98913.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103678 Rebeka: I think too that Harry will be with someone else to face Voldemort in the end. Not because he's nor powerful or just young, but because of the prophecy. I'm probably wrong, but every time I read it, more I become convinced that Harry will need a "weapon" to vanquish the Dark Lord. And this 'weapon' will not be an item, but a person. I don't think that the weapon is either a object or a person per say. The ultimate weapon against evil is love and Harry will have to feel a great love,true love, to defeat LV. Now parents he doesn't know or a dead godfather are not enough for this. Love powerful enough to destroy LV only happens with the one that completes you,a soul mate, and although we all have our candidates for this role(coughHermionecough) but that love will be what ends the Dark Punk for good. McMax From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jun 30 16:58:58 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (gift_lady) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:58:58 -0000 Subject: The "truth", Moody clues, James or Lily first, CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103679 In light of learning some new facts, the new title for Book >6, "The Truth" (which has been buried under all the Half-Blood- >Prince talk and 'Priori Incantatum: James-then-Lily or not' debate -- >I don't think anyone has discussed yet?) all the sirius & crazy >theories, etc etc... Christina: Okay, I'm going to admit that I don't get this. Can you explain about "The Truth" comment? If you already have never mind, I'm sure I'll find it in a digest. As far as clues to Moody goes, I could see them after re-reading GoF (which I finished last night, in tears. It's my favorite), but the first time through I was surprised. I think that was the point, though. Moody was "the Auror who cried wolf" one too many times so everyone thought that *this* time was just another false alarm. I am glad, though, that this wasn't the *real* Moody and I would like to see the real Moody teach DADA and see what he's really like. I don't understand why Fake!Moody taught Harry all that cool stuff though when he was the bad guy. I believe that James was killed first, downstairs, while trying to keep Lily and Harry safe. As far as the voice Harry hears in PoA it says in GoF that Harry heard his Dad tell Lily to run with Harry. Now that could be Harry's *assumption* that JKR left in the book to throw us off, but I believe it was James. Out of all the books it seems that CoS is the *odd one out*. It does have VM in it but as a memory in a diary, a young Tom Riddle. I'm sure this means something and will tie together things in future books, but I'm not really sure I know right now what CoS was supposed to tell the readers. What new information came to light in CoS? Harry didn't have to fight present day VM in this one - he fought the basilisk and destroyed the diary - and Memory!Tom - but what else did we really discover that are supposed to be clues? Maybe I'm just dense because I didn't see anything. Christina in GA - who deleted several digests and started over From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:05:16 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:05:16 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince/Mudblood Revolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > In conjunction with the actual title revealed by JKR and confirmed by > her agents yesterday, it may be interesting to consider "Mudblood > Revolt." After all, "mudblood" is a pejorative for "half blood." > Revolts, historically, have often been directed either at or by > princes/royalty/nobles. > GEO: No it's not. Mudbloods are muggleborns like Hermione with no magical ancestry. Half-bloods are the children of a parent from the muggle world and a pureblood. From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jun 30 17:17:28 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:17:28 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slurdodger" wrote: > The Other, Other Cheryl wrote: > > ...didn't Dobby differentiate between > > Voldemort and Tom Riddle in COS when trying to give Harry a > > clue? "not...not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, sir..." > > Technically, Harry asked Dobby if the "plot" had anything to do with > "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" - and Tom Riddle can be named. If Harry had > asked if the plot had anything to do with Voldemort, I expect Dobby's > answer would be different (although he probably couldn't answer such a > question without tearing out his left eyeball). > > -James, who does not believe that Voldemort is the half-blood formerly > known as Prince. Ally: I think the HBP is definitely Tom Riddle, a half blood like Harry. JKR said she almost used the title for COS, and COS was heavily focused on Tom Riddle (as opposed to V). She's also said somewhere that Book 3 and 6 would mirror each other, which makes me think we're again going to get a Riddle focus. Who else makes sense as the HBP? From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:57:04 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:57:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103682 pandrea100: > I'm not sure I agree JK made a mistake or didn't realise Snape's > impact. After all, if in book after book Harry & co suspect that > Snape is bad only for him to be proved good, would it not get really > silly? You can only cry wolf so many times before people stop > believing you. I think the 'shift' towards Snape being seen as more > firmly on the good side is simply that he has consistently proved > himself to be, despite his many other faults. Unless new information > emerges showing that he's been a spy the whole time or something, the > characters are accepting that fact for now - it's not because JK > realised people liked Snape more than she expected or whatever. I agree. In the very first book, after all, Snape saves Harry's life (countercurse to Quirrell's curse) even though Harry&Co. were convinced he was evil. If JKR intended for him to be an eventually traitorous character, I don't think she would have put this in. Not to mention the innumerable times Snape protects/saves Harry later on. As pandrea100 says, it would get old pretty fast if Harry and friends kept seriously doubting Snape's loyalty. I think they might just be getting sharper. I would like to think that JKR doesn't change the books according to reader perception. There are a number of places she could have gone the more popular route and didn't. (Heh. I wonder if she reads this list, considering her quick change of the FAQ on her site. I bet she does.) Katie who likes both Snape and Sirius, and is not in favor of character assassinations of either My favorite line is Luna's in OOTP: "You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?... They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 17:00:28 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:00:28 -0000 Subject: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103683 I've seen it argued that although JK sez Voldemort isn't the Prince, Tom Riddle as a somewhat separate entity could be. However, what is a prince? Either a hereditary title - a real prince and part of a royal family - or a honorary title adopted by/given to a self- important person. Now, if it's the former, which I feel is unlikely as we've seen his parents' home and there's no suggestion of a royal link, then Tom Riddle changing his name wouldn't affect his title. If Prince Charles decided he wanted to be known as Norman, he would still be the heir to the throne, unless he abdicated (which someone as ambitious as Tom would never do). If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a prince. That seems really unlikely. I also think that a modern-day prince is unlikely in the wizarding world as we know it so far - even going back a few decades to Tom's youth. So I think the prince is either someone from the past (eg Godric Gryffindor) or someone from another country (unlikely given we've already had overseas visitors in GoF but on the other hand, VERY much in the tradition of British boarding school fiction which JK is to some extent working in: Greyfriars, the Chalet School, Malory Towers, etc etc, they all had princes/princesses as pupils at times). Really trying to resist making a "wizard formerly known as Prince" joke here ... From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:33:22 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:33:22 -0000 Subject: The Echo of Spells - (was Lily died before James? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Jamie wrote: > > .... the Curse That Failed, the cornerstone of the plot, would > > have shown up in between these two shadows at the end of GF-- > > except nothing did! Interesting! > Del replies : > And *what* exactly would have shown up ?? > > We don't see the shadows of the *curses* themselves, but the shadow < of their *results*. We hear screams of pain when a Crucio is cast, > we see ghosts when people are killed. But we never see or hear the > Crucios or the AKs (themselves). > > So what could we expect to see as the shadow of the result of the > Curse That Failed ? ... Its only purpose is to kill, it didn't, > hence it didn't bring any result. Hence no shadow. > > Del asian_lovr2: I'm pretty much in agreement with you Del. This is a point I've tried to makes several times. Let's look at other spells and curses. What would we see as the result of a Stunning Curse or a Jelly-Legs Curse? What would you see as the 'echo' of an Anti-Boggart Spell (Riddikulus); the person who was afraid, the feared 'thing', the wispy smokey boggart, other? Would we see the shadow/echo of the cursed person? If we do see an echo of the cursed person for nearly all curses, then how do you tell a Stunning Curse from a Death Curse? It may not seem reasonable to others, but it seems very reasonable to me that the 'echoes' of many spells are very subtle and difficult to interpret, especially to someone like Harry. On the other hand, a mature, experienced, and specially trained wizard like Amos Diggory or Kingsley Shacklebolt can probably interpert subtle wisps of smoke, and small twinkles of light with great precision. If either of them had been there they may have been able to detect the subtle clues the indicated the prior casting of an Imperius Curse, or the Failed AK curse. It seems very reasonable that Big-V's blocked Imperius Curse and the Failed AK curse would have vague marginally detectable forms. Even the conjuring of the ropes/straps that bound Harry should have appear, assume Wormtail was still using Voldemorts wand. I believe Wormtail even used that wand to ignite the fire under the cauldron. We didn't see those, but that doesn't mean they didn't come out; it only means they didn't come out in any recognisable form. Final comment; as I said in another post, since the Failed/Rebounded AK had never before occurred in the history of wizard-kind, no wizard would know what it should look like. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 30 17:33:35 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:33:35 +0100 Subject: Sirius revisited Message-ID: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103685 Sirius is meant to be a sexy beast. Herself said so; see post 255 - a report of a face-to-face exchange between JKR and an HPfGU member. And what does 'sexy beast' imply? Byronic good looks, unreliable as hell and invariably trouble. That sort always let you down; come on, admit it, they're bastards. But you keep making excuses for them. So it is with Sirius - in spades. Whereas the ordinary run-of-the mill variety will disappoint you eventually, they do occasionally hit the high spots (or so I have been informed). By contrast Sirius keeps plumbing the depths - a high spot for him is an occasion when he keeps his mouth shut for once. Right from the moment of his introduction in PoA, where true to form he tries to throttle Harry, right through to his grand-standing final curtain in OoP, he never does anything right. Wherever he goes, whatever he does, he's a disaster waiting to happen. The Siriophile excuses keep rolling out of course; "He's spent 12 years suffering in Azkaban! What do you expect!" "He's never recovered from his childhood with that horrible family of his! We must make allowances!" "But he loves Harry, so he must be good!" Yeah, sure. Whenever I consider Sirius an old quote springs to mind: "The more he protested his honour, the faster we counted the spoons." So in the spirit of performing a public service, once again it's time to delve into the dossier of S. Black Esq. and see what we can see, fully conscious that rewards will be slight and may consist solely of vituperation or worse. We don't know much about his childhood, merely that he grew to dislike his family, leaving them to move into the Potter household when he was sixteen or thereabouts. However much he tried to isolate himself from them, early family influences still remain - the blustering, bullying attitude, the self-justification that is almost stereotypical of those from a privileged background. Nurture or nature? Do bloodlines define the person in the Potterverse, or is it up-bringing? Or both? Whatever, his personality is set. At Hogwarts he's known to indulge in bullying and will without compunction put the lives of others at risk out of spite - with little evidence of regret or remorse afterwards. The fact that there was no punishment for his behaviour is unfortunate; lack of sanctions would tend to bolster his self-esteem and his conviction of being justified in his actions. The 'Secret Keeper' fiasco has been pored over often. It's difficult to imagine what he thought he was up to. He is the SK; the Potters can only be contacted through him. So he hands over the responsibility to Peter, citing the reason that Voldy and his pals would chase him (Sirius) as a known friend of the Potters, thus foiling their dastardly plans. Tripe. Rubbish. What a load of old cobblers. Think about it. 1. If anyone needs to contact the Potters, they need to know who the SK is. Therefore knowledge of Peter's position must be spread around, otherwise there's no point in having an SK. 2. Sirius may not be able to divulge the Potters hiding place (presumably that location vanished from his mind when handing over his duties), but he does know who the new SK is. He must, otherwise he can't contact the Potters when necessary. 3. Sirius would last about 5 minutes under intensive Voldy pressure. Not only is Voldy one of the two most powerful wizards in the world with a whole range of 'persuasive' spells at his finger-tips, he's also a mind-reader of note. And there's only two recorded Occlumency adepts in the books - expecting Sirius to be another is asking a bit too much IMO. 4. All his master plan can achieve (assuming that it played out as he imagined it would) would be to put an extra person at risk. Instead of Sirius and the Potters being in the firing line, it's now Sirius, Peter and the Potters. Bloody brilliant. Then the aftermath. More strokes of Black genius. He arrives at the house. As the supposed SK he's the prime suspect for the betrayal of the Potters. Does he proclaim his innocence? No. Just this one time, at a moment when his penchant for excuses might actually do him some good, he keeps his mouth shut. Why? There is *no* reason to. Shock? Unlikely. He's lucid enough to argue that he should take charge of Harry, but apparently not lucid enough to deny responsibility for making him an orphan. How very strange. Instead he goes off after Peter. To kill him. There's just one person who could clear him - and that's the one he tries to kill. Now if I had a suspicious nature I'd wonder at that. Clearing away loose ends, perhaps? Making sure there's nobody left to contradict his tale? How convenient. And no trial. Why not? Fear of what he might say in court? He can say nothing that would harm the 'good' side, but he could conceivably let the cat out of the bag where Voldy supporters are concerned. So he's quickly hustled off to the slammer where he sits for 12 years. I've covered his 'escape' from Azkaban in some detail in post 79808, no need to go through it all again - suffice it to say that his story is full of holes and a good case can be made for his 'escape' being the result of a deliberate conspiracy (probably by Fudge). The only question is whether or not Sirius was a knowing participant in the plan or an unwitting catspaw. Once again he has one aim. Kill Peter. After 12 years of sitting around, claiming that it was only the knowledge that he was innocent that kept him sane, his preferred first action is to kill the one person who could actually *prove* his innocence. Some people never learn. Well, we all know what happens next - he offers Harry a home, the Dementors dement, he escapes on Buckbeak (where does he go? We're never told, but it's obviously just a coincidence that Voldy is holidaying abroad too. And it's obviously another coincidence that Trelawney's second Prophecy could apply to him too.) He's a fringe figure in GoF; good job too. He can only think of rotten ideas for spells to use against dragons (surprise, surprise). I dread to think what the result might have been if his Floo episodes hadn't been interrupted. He turns up at the end, but it's noticeable that DD gets him out of the way as soon as possible. Feeble excuse, too. Would you send the most wanted man in the WW wandering round the streets carrying messages to various addresses when you've got a barn full of owls and a Floo-capable fireplace as alternatives? No, neither would I. On to OoP. Here he's at his obnoxious best. He has a lot of influence over Harry and he doesn't use it responsibly. Does he see Harry as the adventurous, up-for-anything James? Or as a proxy for himself? ("Well, I'd do it that way myself, but as things stand...") He wants to be sole mentor to Harry, to have the yea or nay for anyone else's plans. Certainly Harry is emotionally dependent on him and supports Sirius's views as a matter of course. Are his feelings reciprocated? Maybe. There could be other explanations - survivors syndrome, for example, or he may see Harry as his sole source of credibility; without Harry he is nothing, a total failure. The Godfather bit I consider to be a red herring. In the UK 'Godfather' is a purely symbolic title and confers no rights nor places responsibilities/obligations on the recipient. Of course, Godfather does have another meaning, ask Mario Puzo. But there are those that think that Sirius would be a most suitable guardian for Harry, even though: He's spent 12 years in Azkaban and is on the run He has no experience with children He has no idea of Harry's emotional or physical needs He is rash, disruptive, argumentative, a potential murderer (twice plus the 'Prank'), compulsive, naive, and has totally unrealistic expectations of Harry. Would you hand a child over to such a person? No - and neither will DD. He's not to be trusted with the care of someone as critical to DD's plan as Harry is. That is, if he's to be trusted at all. As can be seen from the precis above, at best he's an ambivalent character; the results of so many of his actions can be interpreted as aiding and abetting Voldy - the deaths of the Potters; the escape of Peter (twice); influencing Harry against Snape and the Occlumency lessons; being recognised (in animagus form) with Harry and so revealing a vulnerability to Malfoy and the DEs. He could hardly be more destructive if he'd planned it. Some posters (myself included) have wondered if his demise was not the result of enemy action but of deliberate friendly fire. "He's too dangerous, better a poignant memory than an active disruptive influence" might be a thought that occurred to someone in the Order. "Bye, bye Sirius. That's one problem solved." It's been said that his death is just a plot device that somehow promotes maturity and self-reliance in Harry. (These are often the same posters that argue for Sirius as mentor, male role model, authority figure and emotional support. Seems a bit contradictory to me.) Just when things are getting really tough, Harry's supposed emotional prop is kicked away. Hardly seems fair, does it? Unless he's something else entirely. Why would Sirius be terminated in book 5 of 7 - with strong hints that there will be further revelations to come regarding Sirius' place in the plot? "..learn much more about Sirius," is the phrase used IIRC. What else can we learn that we don't know already? Nothing - unless he wasn't what he seemed to be. It's to be expected many of the softer-hearted fans are suckers for the 'damaged hero' figure in fiction. Handsome, anguished, just a touch dangerous - oooh! Personal fantasies go into overdrive and denial sets in - "He can't be bad - I like him!" Oh yes he can. And he probably is. Kneasy From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:35:59 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:35:59 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103686 antoshachekhonte wrote: > Hmmmmm. We know from JKR (I believe the World Book Day web-chat) that > Regulus is dead--really dead. > > But what if he had children with a muggle??? > > Might not the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black pass to this.... > (wait for it) half blood prince? Eustace_Scrubb: And just maybe the child holds the same sort of hatred for pureblood wizards that Tom Riddle held for his muggle father...and possibly for the same reason. Perhaps Regulus thought better of his infatuation with a muggle girl and washed his hands of the child. Or: perhaps Regulus fell in love with a muggle girl and this was what caused his change of heart about the Death Eaters, with fatal consequences, leading again to a hatred of purebloods and especially DEs on the part of his son. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:37:15 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:37:15 -0000 Subject: Book titles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103687 Hey all. Hoping here that this is OT enough not to attract the wrath of the List Elves. I was thinking about the book titles and how they related to the stories that they belonged to. Here's a quick summation (not that you guys need it, but just to show my point): Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone: This is what was being hidden at Hogwarts, a massive plot point, obviously, and what HRH and DD were so keen to keep away from LV and Quirell (well, Snape, actually, but y'all know that). It gets destroyed at the end of the book. Chamber of Secrets: Where the Basilisk was hidden, and very nearly where Harry and Ginny could have died. Also a massive plot point, and as far as we know it still exists. Prisoner of Azkaban: The only novel named after a character (with the exception of Harry), one who, like the Chamber and the Stone, isn't even physically seen until the very last chapters. He is, sadly, like the Stone, no longer with us. Goblet of Fire: A relatively minor player in the novel, the Goblet's one reason for involvement in the plot is to be hoodwinked by Crouch! Moody and get Harry into the tournament. I always thought that HP and the Triwizard Tournament would have been a better title, just because the TT is far more integral to the plot than the Goblet itslef. The Goblet is seen relatively early in the action and not seen again. Order of the Phoenix: The group dedicated to the eradication of LV and only the second title to be mentioned in a previous book (called the "old crowd" in GoF, Sirius' mention in SS being the other). The Order plays, like the Goblet, a relatively small part in the novel, being seen only at the begining and the end. The Order is, as far as we know, still in exsistence, and will probably play a huge role in the upcoming books. So what can we deduce from HP and the Half Blood Prince? Well, who ever it is doesn't stand a good chance for survival: the Prisoner of Azkaban has allready died, as have a few members of the Order. Any other thoughts related to the title? Could the Chamber (or even the Stone or the Goblet) be back for more action? Who knows? Meri From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:35:47 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:35:47 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103688 Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's grandfather was killed in front of him. Many signs point to Neville's memory having been tampered with-- why would this memory be left? Just musing, really... A virus-y and propably feverish becky From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 17:06:52 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:06:52 -0000 Subject: The missing chapter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103689 On her website JK talks about a chapter that was originally supposed to be in Book One, then she tried it in other books, but it never fit right but now she is firmly placing it in Half Blood Prince. So what's this chapter about? Obviously not something directly related to the plot of any one book. My guess is it is about the founding of Hogwarts. I can imagine the first book giving us the background to how the four Founders created the school, which we are about to be introduced to when Harry goes there. But it probably held up the story even more than the introduction to the whole world - which she said was hard to write, to get all the information in about how magic works, how Harry defeated Voldemort etc. Then it could have fitted in with other books, for instance in CoS explaining more about Slytherin. If the Half Blood Prince turns out to be Godric Gryffindor, then a chapter about the founding of Hogwarts would fit in perfectly. Any other suggestions for what this missing chapter is about? From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:11:15 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:11:15 -0000 Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103690 aboutthe1910s: > Okay, so when Voldie possesses Harry in the end of OotP, and Harry > thinks of Sirius, the warm, squishy feelings drive our friend Voldie > out of Harry. From his own body, the warm squishies are merely > repulsive, but bearable. But imagine if Harry were to somehow find in > his heart *pity* or some kind of compassion/forgiveness for Voldie... > These kind of feelings, actually directed specifically at Voldemort, > even from some distance, would most likely be more than Voldemort > could bear. Not that I think that Voldemort deserves forgiveness, or > that it would be remotely fair to ask it of Harry... I'm just saying, > if he could find it in himself to forgive Voldemort, I really think it > would destroy Voldie. Voldemort crushed! by warm, squishies! And it > plays into the whole deal with Harry having the power that Voldie has > not, blah, blah... I love this idea. I totally bet it's in book 7. I think forgiveness is more potent against evil than any other type of "love". And it fits perfectly with everything that Dumbledore has said, not to mention the prophecy: "mark him as his equal" - the Dark Lord thinking our boy is Slytherinesque, desiring power above all else; "but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" - that would be the capacity to even love or forgive those who had hurt him. Not to mention that Neville could come in here too, because he has less reason to forgive Voldemort than anybody. I think everyone will *think* the power will lie in Harry's love for his parents, when actually it will lie in the far less likely love for Voldemort. Katie From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 16:53:34 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Guardian article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630165334.39226.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103691 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > I got a kick out of seeing how many mistakes the > Guardian made about JKR and the books. The writer, > Sarah Crown, said "a fan posted a message" on her > website (don't we wish), then said that HP/HBP "had > at one point been a contender for the title of the > fourth volume in the series (now Harry Potter and > the Chamber of Secrets)." bamf here: I can forgive the 'fan posted a message on the 'Rumours' section' as simply the writer did not understand that it was JKR posting the rumors she's heard and replying to them. I didn't find any other glaring mistakes. They must have changed it as the article reads: "As well as confirming that Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince had at one point been a contender for the title of the second volume in the series (now Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets)," which to my knowledge was correct. bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 17:40:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:40:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103692 Katie wrote: > As pandrea100 says, it would get old pretty fast if Harry and > friends kept seriously doubting Snape's loyalty. I think they might > just be getting sharper. > I would like to think that JKR doesn't change the books > according to reader perception. There are a number of places she > could have gone the more popular route and didn't. (Heh. I wonder if > she reads this list, considering her quick change of the FAQ on her > site. I bet she does.) > > Potioncat: But the Trio does keep doubting and forgetting his loyalty. And the readers often...very often....argue whether he is really serving DD. JKR can do what she want's...and it could go either way. I think he is loyal and is watching out for the students (Harry in particular) and we will find out later just how "good" he has been. The point earlier, was that perhaps JKR didn't expect the readers to catch on so fast to his undercover "good deeds." (Such as his wandering the halls to catch Harry breaking rules was really to guard Harry.) No, I don't think she changes the books to please the crowd either. Potioncat From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:40:28 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4818 In-Reply-To: <1088614255.105476.47888.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040630174028.73752.qmail@web52504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103693 But as Harry also experiences the loss of sight, Dudley's inability to see the dementors does not rule out his being a "repressed" wizard. I don't know why everyone assumes Dud couldn't see the dementors. During the attack in OOP the text says: "Dudley was curled up on the ground, his arms clamped over his face. A second Dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prising them slowly almost lovingly apart, lowering its hooded head towards Dudley's face as though about to kiss him." If he could only feel the effects of a dementors presence why was he covering his mouth to prevent a kiss? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From liadain76 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:11:19 2004 From: liadain76 at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:11:19 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103694 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Hmmmmm. We know from JKR (I believe the World Book Day > web-chat) that Regulus is dead--really dead. > > But what if he had children with a muggle??? > > Might not the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black > pass to this.... (wait for it) half blood prince? My thoughts exactly. Regulus, deriving from Latin "king", would in turn produce a "prince", and indeed be half blood if the mother were a muggle. But would Regulus stoop so low as to even assocaite with a muggle, much less have a child with her? Brenna From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:43:19 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:43:19 -0000 Subject: The missing chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103695 pandrea100 wrote: My guess is it is about the founding of Hogwarts. I can imagine the > first book giving us the background to how the four Founders created > the school, which we are about to be introduced to when Harry goes > there. But it probably held up the story even more than the > introduction to the whole world - which she said was hard to write, > to get all the information in about how magic works, how Harry > defeated Voldemort etc. One story that was vaguely mentioned that I can see being highly important is that of a clash that leads to Salazar Slytherin leaving hogwarts and making it never the same again... the sorting hat says about this much and then goes on with the song in OotP... I would be interested to know about the fight between such good friends, as Slytherin and Gryffindor were supposedly very close, and I think this could be part of the chapter. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 30 17:43:34 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:43:34 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I > believe Arthur dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already > written his death. If you look under the information on the > Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur Weasley WAS one > of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception > of those we know are dead). > > Now, of course, another explanation could be that one or more of > his brothers has died, but as we haven't been introduced to them, > they are not very likely to be killed in books 6 or 7 (although > anything is possible). If they died in the previous war, there > really is no reason for JKR not to give us this information, > as she does regarding Molly's realtives that were killed. > > Anyone? Pip!Squeak: There's the scene in Goblet of Fire, Chapter Nine, where Arthur Weasley talks about coming back and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you'll find inside. Also Ron's Uncle Bilius has died (PoA), though I can't remember whether that was Molly or Arthur's brother. But the Goblet of Fire scene suggests that *someone* in Arthur's family was killed by Death Eaters. It would be pretty surprising if someone hadn't been, actually, as one of the things we learnt in Order of the Phoenix was that the death rate in the First Voldemort war was pretty high on both sides. So I'd reckon the past tense is simply because Arthur lost one or both of his brothers, details not yet given because either the *family* of one/both brothers may become important in book six or seven, or we may get a moving scene in which Arthur Tells All, and it wouldn't be half so moving if we already knew it anyway. ;-) Pip!Squeak You have been summoned: Accio 2005, the first Harry Potter conference in the UK http://www.accio.org.uk/ From liadain76 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:20:53 2004 From: liadain76 at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:20:53 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103697 Kneazelkid wrote: > Now, of course, another explanation coudl be that one or more of > his brothers has died, but as we haven't been introduced to them, > they are not very likely to be killed in books 6 or 7 (although > anything is possible). If they died in the previous war, there > really is no reason for JKR not to give us this information, > as she does regarding Molly's realtives that were killed. > Anyone? > In PoA, chapter 6, Ron talks about his Uncle Bilius seeing a grim and dying within 24 hours. If we consider the possibility that JKR was quitely suggesting Arthur "was" one of several brothers, the death of Bilius, assuming he's Arthur's brother and not Molly's, could be the reason. Brenna From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Wed Jun 30 17:38:04 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (Eleanor Joslin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:38:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: A student will become a Hogwarts professor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103698 Hi, My first post - discovered you yesterday and am goggling at the endless riches contained in the archives. Anyway: I read somewhere on the group website that JKR has hinted that a student will one day become a Hogwarts teacher. Please could someone provide a source for this, or point me to where it has been discussed? Thanks, Eleanor From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:30:14 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630173014.19888.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103699 vmonte: > > Molly as potions teacher? I would have never thought of > > this. I know you are probably joking, but I would love > > to see a nurturing person as potions teacher for a change. > > Making Snape a DADA teacher would be interesting, but can > > DD get away with using Snape? He was a DE after all. Still, > > I would like to see what Snape's boggart would look like... Potioncat: > Well, only half joking. She seems fairly skilled in many ways. > And we've reason to believe she sat her NEWTS. Given the > standards she sets for the kids, I expect she did well at school. Amber: I don't think it would be wise to put Molly as DADA teacher. Ron and Ginny are still at Hogwarts. On the other hand she could favour the Gryffindor students for a change ;) Potioncat: > Now, as to Snape as DADA...his boggart would no doubt scare all > of us. But can you him teaching that class? "You idiot boy! I > said think of something funny!" (and woe to the poor student who > thinks of a tall hat with a vulture.) Amber: LOL!! Man, you got me in stiches here. I just can picture this happening with Snape. Poor Neville. Potioncat: > As far as his DE connections go, I seem to be in the minority to > think that if his DE background didn't keep him out of Potions it > wouldn't keep him out of DADA. Amber: I think it must count that after all this time DD hasn't offered Snape the position to teach DADA. I mean goes to a lot of trouble to find another DADA teacher. Why not give it to Snape and look for Potion teacher. From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:48:14 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:48:14 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > antoshachekhonte wrote: > > > Hmmmmm. We know from JKR (I believe the World Book Day web-chat) > that > > Regulus is dead--really dead. > > > > But what if he had children with a muggle??? > > > > Might not the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black pass to > this.... > > (wait for it) half blood prince? > > Eustace_Scrubb: > And just maybe the child holds the same sort of hatred for pureblood > wizards that Tom Riddle held for his muggle father...and possibly for > the same reason. Perhaps Regulus thought better of his infatuation > with a muggle girl and washed his hands of the child. > > Or: perhaps Regulus fell in love with a muggle girl and this was what > caused his change of heart about the Death Eaters, with fatal > consequences, leading again to a hatred of purebloods and especially > DEs on the part of his son. > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Who says the Half-Blood Prince has to be alive? Or a half-blood for that matter? The Prince could be a potion ingredient or a historical person for all that we know. I wouldn't say that being dead rules Regulus Black out from being "the prince". Trust me he WILL be mentioned again, even if he is not the HBP. His date of death can't be coincidence. Clio, who is willing to bet a considerable amount of money on the prince not being a child From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jun 30 17:49:46 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:49:46 -0000 Subject: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > I've seen it argued that although JK sez Voldemort isn't the Prince, > Tom Riddle as a somewhat separate entity could be. However, what is > a prince? Either a hereditary title - a real prince and part of a > royal family - or a honorary title adopted by/given to a self- > important person. > > Now, if it's the former, which I feel is unlikely as we've seen his > parents' home and there's no suggestion of a royal link, then Tom > Riddle changing his name wouldn't affect his title. If Prince > Charles decided he wanted to be known as Norman, he would still be > the heir to the throne, unless he abdicated (which someone as > ambitious as Tom would never do). > > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > prince. That seems really unlikely. > > I also think that a modern-day prince is unlikely in the wizarding > world as we know it so far - even going back a few decades to Tom's > youth. So I think the prince is either someone from the past (eg > Godric Gryffindor) or someone from another country (unlikely given > we've already had overseas visitors in GoF but on the other hand, > VERY much in the tradition of British boarding school fiction which > JK is to some extent working in: Greyfriars, the Chalet School, > Malory Towers, etc etc, they all had princes/princesses as pupils at > times). > > Really trying to resist making a "wizard formerly known as Prince" > joke here ... Ally: I think too much emphasis is being placed on the literal interpretation of prince. It could very well be that Tom Riddle was the HBP, because he ultimately became LORD Voldemort. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 17:47:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:47:39 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103702 Potioncat: Sorry I snipped everything because this fits with most of the posts...The Half-blood Prince could be the Prince of the Half-Bloods and not himself be Half-Blood....sort of like the Price of Wales isn't from Wales. Potioncat From mauranen at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:22:57 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:22:57 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103703 > > Ginger wrote: > > The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know that > > the basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > > > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP. > Neri : > Yes! And you forgot to mention that a toad MUST be an enchanted > prince! Jekatiska: And why else would Trevor attend lectures unlike the other kids' pets? He must be an Animagus. And being a prince, he would turn into a toad... I like this theory! From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 17:51:34 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:51:34 -0000 Subject: The missing chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103704 wrote: > One story that was vaguely mentioned that I can see being highly > important is that of a clash that leads to Salazar Slytherin leaving > hogwarts and making it never the same again... the sorting hat says > about this much and then goes on with the song in OotP... That's a very good point. I did think that it was a little unusual that the hat suddenly launched into this song, perhaps she was setting up this 6th book knowing that she'd put the full story there. And with the increasing importance of the theme of prejudice - mudblood, halfblood, pureblood - the second half of the song about how the school must unite and the Hat worries that it is making things worse, could now take on greater importance. After all, that whole chapter was titled The Sorting Hat's New Song, which makes it seem significant, but it didn't really prove to be in OotP. Pandrea From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:58:58 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: <20040630173014.19888.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amber_ Falls wrote: > Amber: > I think it must count that after all this time DD > hasn't offered Snape the position to teach DADA. > I mean goes to a lot of trouble to find another DADA > teacher. Why not give it to Snape and look for Potion > teacher. GEO: -Perhaps because Snape knows the art of potions brewing better than defense against the dark arts. -Also it seems that the DADA class involves the use of dark arts for practice such as practicing resistance against Imperius and giving Snape the job would allow him to practice those same dark arts that caused his first falling in with Voldemort and co. Think of it this way, you might get a drug addict or alcoholic to teach a drug&alcohol resistance education program, but you would certainly try to keep drugs and alcohol away from the said addict. From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:59:32 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:59:32 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince/Mudblood Revolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103706 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > In conjunction with the actual title revealed by JKR and confirmed > > by her agents yesterday, it may be interesting to consider "Mudblood > > Revolt." After all, "mudblood" is a pejorative for "half blood." > > Revolts, historically, have often been directed either at or by > > princes/royalty/nobles. GEO: > No it's not. Mudbloods are muggleborns like Hermione with no > magical ancestry. Half-bloods are the children of a parent from the > muggle world and a pureblood. Eustace_Scrubb: (who had turned a brilliant shade of scarlet) Doh! Yeah, you're right of course! One the other hand, I would bet that (despite Tom Riddle's ancestry) LV and his supporters would have no less contempt (and possibly more) for half-bloods. Anyway, I'll still speculate that there may be a mudblood revolt in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From reyakittens at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 17:53:43 2004 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:53:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103707 Kneasy wrote: "Then the aftermath. More strokes of Black genius. He arrives at the house. As the supposed SK he's the prime suspect for the betrayal of the Potters. Does he proclaim his innocence? No. Just this one time, at a moment when his penchant for excuses might actually do him some good, he keeps his mouth shut. Why? There is *no* reason to. Shock? Unlikely. He's lucid enough to argue that he should take charge of Harry, but apparently not lucid enough to deny responsibility for making him an orphan. How very strange." Hey guys, been lurking on the list for about a week and great discussions going on here. :-) Read through this whole post but wanted to make a comment on this above paragraph... Now, I have never had two of my best friends die so it's hard to say what my first reaction would be, what would make sense and what wouldn't... But Sirius convinces James and Lily to change him as the sk to Peter right? And he never thought that Peter was going to run to Voldemort or be the spy... Well that said, he thought he was doing the smart and wise thing... Was it a bad descion? Yes.. but with hindsight. And you can't really blame him for not knowing that Peter was the spy. But I think it's a bit harsh to say it's his fault Harry was made an orphan. He thought what he was doing was the best thing that could be done and only with hindsight was it the worst thing he could have done. Hence what a great spy Peter was. As for him keeping his mouth shut and not saying he wasn't the sk, Peter was the sk.. I really doubt the general group of people knew who the sk was (i.e. Hagrid) and I'm pretty sure they didn't go around talking about who it was. Kind of defeats the point of having an sk if everyone knows who they are. Peter was the one who blew up Sirius's spot to everyone (and yes, I know there were others who had to know, i.e. Dumbledore, but Peter made it public knowledge). As for him offering to take Harry and being in shock.. That doesn't really surprise since he's looking upon a baby that he is godfather to and he had to know how much Lily's family sucked. He was best friends with them. It makes perfect sense he'd be out of it but could still string thoughts together about what was to be done with the baby. Anyway, very interesting thoughts and I can't wait to see what JK will do with the memory of Sirius. Back to lurking. :-) Robyn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 18:21:55 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:21:55 -0000 Subject: Royalty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > Sorry I snipped everything because this fits with most of the > posts...The Half-blood Prince could be the Prince of the Half- Bloods > and not himself be Half-Blood....sort of like the Price of Wales > isn't from Wales. Geoff: Sort of heads you back towards Voldemort, doesn't it? The leader of the Death Eaters who pride themselves on being purebloods, yet he is a half-blood. Also rather like Hitler being Austrian and not matching his Aryancriteria. PS What is the price of Wales nowadays? :-) From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 18:26:05 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:26:05 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103711 Becky wrote: > Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's grandfather > was killed in front of him. Many signs point to Neville's memory > having been tampered with-- why would this memory be left? Just > musing, really... Eustace_Scrubb: Do we know how Neville's grandad died? We know from OoP Chapter 21 that he did see his grandfather die, but do we know didn't die of natural causes? (Hope you feel better soon!) Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb congested but not feverish From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 18:28:20 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:28:20 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > prince. That seems really unlikely. How do you know that he bestowed it on himself. Perhaps it was a nick name given to him by his fellow students at Hogwarts that he later cast away after he rejected his heritage as a half-blood and became obessessed with the whole pureblood supremacy thing? From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 18:27:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:27:56 -0000 Subject: HBP - In what book did Harry dream of R&H wearing crowns? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103713 Fran wrote: Theories are running wild on the HBP, so I thought I would throw in my 2 knuts. Why not Hagrid? He is a half giant and wizard. I like the big oaf and would love to see something good happen to him. This is probably too obvious a choice and I need to re-read COS to see if maybe there is someone mentioned that could be this so called HBP Any thoughts on this....I have on my flame-proof clothing and a bowl of murlap essence at the ready! vmonte responds: In what book did Harry have a dream where he saw Ron & Hermione wearing crowns? Maybe the brain that attacked Ron belongs to Godric Gryffindor. At some point in time the books are going to have to discuss the 4 founders in detail, right? I also like that in the PoA movie that Ron's animal (boys first night back at Hogwarts) was a Lion. vivian From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jun 30 18:42:58 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:42:58 -0000 Subject: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103714 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" > wrote: > > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, > > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking > > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > > prince. That seems really unlikely. > > Ally: > > I think too much emphasis is being placed on the literal > interpretation of prince. It could very well be that Tom Riddle was > the HBP, because he ultimately became LORD Voldemort. Ally edited to add: On the literal interpretation front, you're assuming that the "Lord" in Voldemort is the equivalent of a "Lord" in traditional British (or other) royalty. But "Lord" Voldemort is clearly more like a king or supreme ruler - that's what he wants to be and the title he chose. From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jun 30 18:51:25 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:51:25 -0000 Subject: All the reasons why Tom Riddle was the HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103715 1) JKR said she almost chose the title HBP for COS, which is all about a young Tom Riddle. No other character - except for Harry - who could qualify as the HBP played an important role in this book - at least not an important enough role to warrant a title about him. 2) JKR has said that we will find out more about Riddle and why he turned out the way he did. Well, we're running out of books. 3) The young Tom Riddle WAS NOT V. He became V. So its consistent for JKR to say that the HBP is not Harry or V and have it be about Riddle. 4) JKR is coming to the end of the series - its necessary for her to narrow our focus to the resolution as opposed to expanding the canvas. Introducing a new character as the HBP or greatly expanding the history of an existing character would all tend to expand the canvas as opposed to narrowing it. Book 6 will be about Riddle's past and also about V's power becoming more widespread and open and obvious. Book 7 will resolve all those Harry questions - the green eyes, Lily, the Marauders/Snape, Godric's Hollow, etc. Ally From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 18:54:47 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:54:47 -0000 Subject: HBP - In what book did Harry dream of R&H wearing crowns? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103716 > > vmonte responds: > > In what book did Harry have a dream where he saw Ron & Hermione > wearing crowns? Maybe the brain that attacked Ron belongs to Godric > Gryffindor. At some point in time the books are going to have to > discuss the 4 founders in detail, right? I also like that in the PoA > movie that Ron's animal (boys first night back at Hogwarts) was a > Lion. > > vivian Antosha: Hooboy! I hadn't made that connection at all--and I loved that addition to the story, since that scene is one of the few where you get to see Harry and his friends act like thirteen-year- olds.... I had totally forgotten the dream of Kreacher's death (it's in OotP, chapter ten, "Luna Lovegood," right at the top), over which R and H preside as king and queen. However, it always seemed to me that the brain-thing was going to come back, though Ron seemed normal at the end of OotP. I think you might be on to something here, especially given JKR's statements that Alfonso Cuaron must have been psychic to made some of the additions that he did.... Something odd just occurred to me. There is much MUCH emphasis placed on how alike all of the Weasleys are. Almost too much. What if one *coughRONcough* turned out to be a foundling? Hmmm. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jun 30 19:10:09 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:10:09 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Half_Blood_Prince_(was_my_favorite_HBP_picks=85)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103717 >> James "Slurdodger" wrote: >> Salazar Slytherin was undoubtedly an incredibly powerful and important wizard too regardless of his unfortunate lineage, so much so he might be touted as "The Halfblood Prince". << > Del replied: > ... And the King of Hypocrites then ! Remember, Slytherin is the one who started that whole pure-blood business ! LV himself denied his Muggle-side in order to fit into Slytherin's philosophy. I imagine that Bella's horror at discovering that her beloved LV is a half-blood would be NOTHING compared to LV's horror when discovering that his idol Slytherin was a half-blood... > Nope, sorry, it just doesn't work for me. < boyd: On the other hand, Del, wouldn't finding out such a horrible secret about himself be exactly the kind of thing that could drive Slytherin to 1) go insane with rage at his accursed muggle blood, 2) so mistreat any who who don't adhere to his elitist pureblood ways that he alienates Godric Gryffindor (thus the split), 3) become so pureblood-centric that he constructs the Chamber of Secrets and places a muggleborn-killing basilisk there, 4) possibly somehow create the lifeforce behind Lord Voldemort (see my SSHARP OWW post #103326)? That's my current theory, because it ties to COS yet was not central to the plot at that time, bears heavily on the destruction of LV in books 6&7, and explains the Chamber, the split between the founders, and the need for a CoS book in the first place. Doesn't JKR indeed almost give it away in CoS if viewed through this lens? --boyd From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Wed Jun 30 18:02:07 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:02:07 -0000 Subject: A brother? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103718 What if Harry had a sibling of some sort? While I do not believe that JK could actually kill Harry, what if we found out that the Potters were hiding another child somewhere, a half-blood prince, that would be able to off LV without Harry himself dying? OR, a half sibling...? We haven't deduced how divorces in the WW work yet. Is this TOTALLY far fetched? ALSO - Can anyone cite the instance in which the boy in Slytherin, the "not- so-bad" Slytherin made an appearance? Am I hallucinating, because I recall his mentioning on this board at some point... From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 18:41:13 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:41:13 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103719 wrote: > How do you know that he bestowed it on himself. Perhaps it was a > nick name given to him by his fellow students at Hogwarts that he > later cast away after he rejected his heritage as a half-blood and > became obessessed with the whole pureblood supremacy thing? Which? Voldemort, or the Prince? I think Tom chose Voldemort as his new name himself, marking his attempt to master death. As for the Prince name, whether he chose it or it was bestowed on him by others, it still seems unlikely he cast it away in favour of Lord. Anyway, calling someone a Prince is a pretty stupid nickname and I'm sure someone would remember that Tom used to have it - whereas this HBP thing is probably going to be something that Harry & co discover. Pandrea From ariana at astele.co.uk Wed Jun 30 18:41:20 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:41:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP MUST have appeared in COS References: Message-ID: <037f01c45ed1$d6176610$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103720 > Ally: > > I think the HBP is definitely Tom Riddle, a half blood like Harry. > JKR said she almost used the title for COS, and COS was heavily > focused on Tom Riddle (as opposed to V). But she also said that CoS, as published, bore no relation to the HBP anymore. Which makes it extremely unlikely that it's Tom Riddle, since Riddle *is* the focus of CoS. I really don't think she's playing games about it *not* being Riddle/Voldemort. > Ally: > She's also said somewhere > that Book 3 and 6 would mirror each other, which makes me think we're > again going to get a Riddle focus. Who else makes sense as the HBP? I would think a mirror of CoS (or did you really mean PoA?) would rather imply that we're going to get a focus on the *reverse* of Riddle. Which would be someone opposed to Riddle and what he represents. My current favourite would be Gryffindor, but it's also possible that it's another new character who tried to oppose Riddle in his early days, for instance. YMMV, obviously. :) Ariana From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 19:01:25 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:01:25 -0000 Subject: All the reasons why Tom Riddle was the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103721 mnaperrone at a...> wrote: > 1) JKR said she almost chose the title HBP for COS, which is all > about a young Tom Riddle. No other character - except for Harry - > who could qualify as the HBP played an important role in this book - > at least not an important enough role to warrant a title about him. But she also said she changed the book so much that the title no longer fit, so it's possible the role of whoever or whatever the HBP is was substantially reduced or even written out. If Riddle was indeed the HBP, why would the title no longer fit? > 2) JKR has said that we will find out more about Riddle and why he > turned out the way he did. Well, we're running out of books. Doesn't mean it has to be in the title, we can still learn about him. For instance, suppose she'd said "Book Five will reveal why Snape really hated James", you wouldn't argue "But the title is The Order Of The Phoenix, therefore it must be linked!" > 3) The young Tom Riddle WAS NOT V. He became V. So its consistent > for JKR to say that the HBP is not Harry or V and have it be about > Riddle. Only if there is some reason why Tom Riddle was the Prince and Voldemort was not. We have to take her statement that Voldemort was NOT the Prince at face value, so why, then, did he stop being the Prince? > 4) JKR is coming to the end of the series - its necessary for her to > narrow our focus to the resolution as opposed to expanding the > canvas. Introducing a new character as the HBP or greatly expanding > the history of an existing character would all tend to expand the > canvas as opposed to narrowing it. Only if she wants to fully flesh out every detail. I would imagine that as a writer she would be more excited about bringing in new stuff than painstakingly going over everything/everybody previously mentioned and explaining everything about them, what a slog. > Book 6 will be about Riddle's past and also about V's power becoming > more widespread and open and obvious. I agree. I also think there will be stuff about the history of Hogwarts - doubtless giving Hermione more cause to quote her favourite book, which has been mentioned (I think) in every volume to date. >Book 7 will resolve all those > Harry questions - the green eyes, Lily, the Marauders/Snape, Godric's > Hollow, etc. Possibly. I don't really understand why everyone makes such a big deal about his eye colour though. I think it's just description, like his hair sticking up, and a convenient way for people to be inspired to talk about his parents ("You look so like them ..."). Pandrea From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 19:37:39 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:37:39 -0000 Subject: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jekatiska" wrote: > > > Ginger wrote: > > > The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know that > > > the basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > > > > > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > > > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > > > > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP. > > > Neri : > > Yes! And you forgot to mention that a toad MUST be an enchanted > > prince! > > Jekatiska: > > And why else would Trevor attend lectures unlike the other kids' pets? > He must be an Animagus. And being a prince, he would turn into a > toad... I like this theory! And of course there is already a filk to treat of this issue (from Sondheim's Sweeney "Toad", no less) http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#The_Ballad_of_Trevo r_Toad - CMC From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jun 30 19:37:41 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:37:41 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? - No Room for Error. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del replies : > And *what* exactly would have shown up ?? > The body that Vapour!Mort had occupied. Or are you suggesting he attacked James and Lily as a ghost-like vapour? Kneasy From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 19:32:48 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:32:48 -0000 Subject: A brother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" wrote: > What if Harry had a sibling of some sort? Well ... his parents are pretty definitely dead, dead and buried. So the sibling would have to be older. And therefore people like Sirius, Dumbledore etc would know of its existence. I find it unbelievable that they would know such a thing and not tell Harry. Anyway, even if there was some way this could be possible, it doesn't make for a very good way of telling a story, just introducing a surprise! new sibling*. I think in analysing the books we need to be careful to distinguish between what COULD be done if you split hairs and tweak facts and stretch for some outlandish coincidence/secret/lie and what SHOULD be done to make a good story. A lot of these far-reaching explanations just don't sound like great potential for fiction. *Then again, they did it in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, but a lot of people hated it. Pandrea From plungy116 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 19:33:18 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:33:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103725 Robyn wrote: > Anyway, very interesting thoughts and I can't wait > to see what JK will do with the memory of Sirius. To me (a girl) it seems to me that JKR has picked on the characteristics of a typical bloke. Sirius is gorgeous, dangerous and knows it (kneasly got the bad boy bit right). He's also not the sharpest pencil. His dud ideas for Harry in GoF, his treatment of Kreacher in OoP...he's impulsive and doesn't always think through the consequences of his actions. I believe he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing by getting Peter to be the secret keeper. His logic was sound enough, he just didn't think it through. He wants to be part of the action in OoP, and its killing him to sit on his hands, he wants out, so he goes out as Padfoot, but again he didn't think it through, didn't consider the "what ifs". Malfoy DID see him (it doesn't seem to be his normal kind of language to speak of dogs). My personal opinion is that Sirius is a normal bloke, itching to do what he thinks is right, but somehow always fouling it up by not thinking it through to the end. Fail to prepare, then prepare to fail Sarah xx From liadain76 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 19:33:33 2004 From: liadain76 at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:33:33 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103726 wrote: > How do you know that he bestowed it on himself. Perhaps it was a > nick name given to him by his fellow students at Hogwarts that he > later cast away after he rejected his heritage as a half-blood and > became obessessed with the whole pureblood supremacy thing? In CoS, Dumbledore tells Harry that he is one of few people who know Riddle to be Voldemort, and if it was a nickname given to him while in school, wouldn't more people know about it? Also, the fact that Tom Marvolo Riddle switched around spells "I am Lord Voldemort" says to me that LV is a name he chose himself, and very creatively so. Brenna From prpa_dbz at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 18:39:32 2004 From: prpa_dbz at yahoo.com (prpa_dbz) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:39:32 -0000 Subject: The "truth", Moody clues, James or Lily first, CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103727 Christina: > Out of all the books it seems that CoS is the *odd one out*. > It does have VM in it but as a memory in a diary, a young Tom > Riddle. I'm sure this means something and will tie together > things in future books, but I'm not really sure I know right > now what CoS was supposed to tell the readers. What new > information came to light in CoS? Harry didn't have to fight > present day VM in this one - he fought the basilisk and > destroyed the diary - and Memory!Tom - but what else did we > really discover that are supposed to be clues? How is CoS any odder than PoA? In Prisoner Harry fights less of Voldemort than he does in CoS. At least he fights a younger Voldy. In PoA he fights the dementors, and for the Quidditch Cup, until JKR switches the plots on us, then he's fighting against Pettigrew. So, I think PoA is the only one in which Harry doesn't fight Voldy. From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 19:58:36 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:58:36 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince/Mudblood Revolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103728 > GEO: No it's not. Mudbloods are muggleborns like Hermione with no > magical ancestry. Half-bloods are the children of a parent from the > muggle world and a pureblood. Actually, my understanding was that there would still be some sort of magical ancestry for a muggleborn witch or wizard--just not an extremely recent generation... Otherwise, where did the magic come from to start with? I just thought it was a recessive trait that disappeared for a while but could sometimes randomly turn back up. a From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 20:00:02 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: <20040630015932.42809.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040630200002.26873.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103729 --- AnitaKH wrote: > > > akh: I bought the UK paperback set from Amazon.co.uk > a few months ago, and it has the Lily/James sequence > in it. FWIW, that matches my hardcover US edition, > which would not have been a first printing, since I > bought it in 2002. The paperback copy says, "This > edition first published in 2001." I'm guessing that > this edition, even if it was printed shortly before > I bought it, is likely to be a reprint, not a newly > edited version. > akh, who also has a headache from trying to figure > this out, or perhaps from that second glass of wine > last night... > > Amber: I have a UK paperback of GoF and it has the Lily/James sequence, too. Also bought in 2002. It doesn't say which edition this one is, only that the book was first published in the UK 2000. At the bottom of the page is there a series of numbers from one to twenty. Maybe I have the 20th edition?? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From s_karmol at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 20:11:10 2004 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:11:10 -0000 Subject: All the reasons why Tom Riddle was the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > mnaperrone at a...> wrote: > > 1) JKR said she almost chose the title HBP for COS, which is all > > about a young Tom Riddle. No other character - except for Harry - > > who could qualify as the HBP played an important role in this book - > > at least not an important enough role to warrant a title about him. > > But she also said she changed the book so much that the title no > longer fit, so it's possible the role of whoever or whatever the HBP > is was substantially reduced or even written out. If Riddle was > indeed the HBP, why would the title no longer fit? > > > 2) JKR has said that we will find out more about Riddle and why he > > turned out the way he did. Well, we're running out of books. > > Doesn't mean it has to be in the title, we can still learn about > him. For instance, suppose she'd said "Book Five will reveal why > Snape really hated James", you wouldn't argue "But the title is The > Order Of The Phoenix, therefore it must be linked!" > > > 3) The young Tom Riddle WAS NOT V. He became V. So its > consistent > > for JKR to say that the HBP is not Harry or V and have it be about > > Riddle. > > Only if there is some reason why Tom Riddle was the Prince and > Voldemort was not. We have to take her statement that Voldemort was > NOT the Prince at face value, so why, then, did he stop being the > Prince? > > > 4) JKR is coming to the end of the series - its necessary for her > to > > narrow our focus to the resolution as opposed to expanding the > > canvas. Introducing a new character as the HBP or greatly > expanding > > the history of an existing character would all tend to expand the > > canvas as opposed to narrowing it. > > Only if she wants to fully flesh out every detail. I would imagine > that as a writer she would be more excited about bringing in new > stuff than painstakingly going over everything/everybody previously > mentioned and explaining everything about them, what a slog. > > > Book 6 will be about Riddle's past and also about V's power > becoming > > more widespread and open and obvious. > > I agree. I also think there will be stuff about the history of > Hogwarts - doubtless giving Hermione more cause to quote her > favourite book, which has been mentioned (I think) in every volume to > date. > > >Book 7 will resolve all those > > Harry questions - the green eyes, Lily, the Marauders/Snape, > Godric's > > Hollow, etc. > > Possibly. I don't really understand why everyone makes such a big > deal about his eye colour though. I think it's just description, > like his hair sticking up, and a convenient way for people to be > inspired to talk about his parents ("You look so like them ..."). > > Pandrea Steph here: Pandrea...I agree with all that you said...except the eye color thing...JK has said on many occassions that Harry's eyes will play an important part...she even mentioned how the director of PoA unintentionally put in clues for the next books...and Lily's eyes were mentioned a few times in that movie although I don't believe it was really mentioned in that specific book. And why can't the HBP be Godric Gryffindor? If we know tons about the heir of Slytherin...don't you think it makes sence that she changed the name of Book two...b/c she took the GG info out? From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 20:10:07 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:10:07 -0000 Subject: HBP - R&H crowns. Ron uses penseive to release brain attack memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103731 I vmonte wrote: In what book did Harry have a dream where he saw Ron & Hermione wearing crowns? Maybe the brain that attacked Ron belongs to Godric Gryffindor. At some point in time the books are going to have to discuss the 4 founders in detail, right? I also like that in the PoA movie that Ron's animal (boys first night back at Hogwarts) was a Lion. Antosha responded: Hooboy! I hadn't made that connection at all--and I loved that addition to the story, since that scene is one of the few where you get to see Harry and his friends act like thirteen-year-olds.... I had totally forgotten the dream of Kreacher's death (it's in OotP, chapter ten, "Luna Lovegood," right at the top), over which R and H preside as king and queen. However, it always seemed to me that the brain-thing was going to come back, though Ron seemed normal at the end of OotP. I think you might be on to something here, especially given JKR's statements that Alfonso Cuaron must have been psychic to made some of the additions that he did.... vmonte again: I could see Ron having trouble due to the new memories in his head. DD may suggest to Ron that he could use his penseive to relieve himself of them. What if the trio start looking at these memories? vivian From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 20:07:42 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:07:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New to this but, have opinions. References: Message-ID: <008901c45edd$e7666f90$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 103732 You know what, if the h.b.p. is on our side, I hope it's Neville. He carried himself so well in Book Five, I have to think we'll see more great things from him. Who's side is the prince supposed to be on? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 30 20:33:41 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:33:41 -0000 Subject: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > I've seen it argued that although JK sez Voldemort isn't the Prince, > Tom Riddle as a somewhat separate entity could be. However, what is > a prince? Either a hereditary title - a real prince and part of a > royal family - or a honorary title adopted by/given to a self- > important person. I very much hope Book 6 doesn't revolve around some political, dynastic struggle within the wizarding world. I thought all the detailing of bureaucratic bungling and government corruption in Book 5 nearly ground the story to a halt. I'm not interested in moving up from that to something that will involve inheritance laws or universal suffrage. > > > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > prince. That seems really unlikely. I don't see the terms as being all that exclusionary. Lord and Prince can be used to describe the same person; how many different titles does Jesus have? King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace (and that's just going by memory from the Hallelujah Chorus!). Whoever the HBP is, that could be a title he gives himself, or that his followers give him, or even that his enemies give him. It could be said with a sneer, rather than in admiration. Wanda From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 20:47:03 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:47:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How about Dobby for the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630204703.59083.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103734 Udder PenDragon We seem to think that the HBP appeared and had a role in Book 2. What about Dobby we know nothing of his origin and for a House Elf he is wierd. Could he be our HBP? TTFN UdderPD ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lbiles at flash.net Wed Jun 30 20:46:17 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:46:17 -0000 Subject: HBP minor candidates Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103735 It has been dizzying trying to read the various threads dealing with potential candidates for the HBP. Here are a couple that have been mentioned but not discussed to death. All seem equally plausible. 1) The Bloody Baron. He sure has had a lot of page time for a minor character. Why does he have silver blood (is it unicorn blood?) and why is he the only one who can control peeves. There is a lot of back story left to be discovered about him. It would definitely be ironic if the Slytherin house ghost turned out to be a half-blood! 2) Viktor Krum. I personally think it is highly likely that he will be the next DADA professor. For all we know he is Bulgarian royalty and in any event he is treated like a prince because of his quidditch prowess. 3) The as yet to be named heir to the House of Black. What does everyone think? leb From janedeau at mac.com Wed Jun 30 20:34:24 2004 From: janedeau at mac.com (Jane Deau) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:34:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The missing chapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103736 On Jun 30, 2004, at 10:06 AM, pandrea100 wrote: > Any other suggestions for what this missing chapter is about? It could be about Hagrid. Is there any mention of giant's having royalty? Also Hagrid's past - getting expelled - played a large part in POA. -JaneDeau [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kate.p.watson at lmco.com Wed Jun 30 20:33:09 2004 From: kate.p.watson at lmco.com (kp0027) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:33:09 -0000 Subject: Royality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103737 Clio Said: > I wouldn't say that being dead rules Regulus Black out from > being "the prince". Trust me he WILL be mentioned again, even if he > is not the HBP. His date of death can't be coincidence. Pardon me, but, when did he die and why is it significant? From kate.p.watson at lmco.com Wed Jun 30 20:40:54 2004 From: kate.p.watson at lmco.com (kp0027) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:40:54 -0000 Subject: HBP....James Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" wrote: > Well? > > Ok. I'm really having TOO much fun here.... > > AF ;) Well, Harry DOES have a lot of money at Gringotts that was never really explained... From laura18 at mail2eastend.com Wed Jun 30 20:46:44 2004 From: laura18 at mail2eastend.com (Laura H) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:46:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Upcoming Convention Alley Registration Deadlines and Shop CA Message-ID: <1222201c45ee3$5ad37090$20cb010a@mail2world.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103739 Dear Sheryll- Will the ConAlley logo shirts shown on cafepress be available for purchase at the con itself? Or will there be another con shirt for sale there? The programming looks great-we're so psyched about this! Thanks- Laura and Ariel Horowitz <-----Original Message-----> From: Sheryll Townsend Sent: 6/29/2004 5:48:22 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Upcoming Convention Alley Registration Deadlines and Shop CA Just a reminder that there will be no on-site registration for Convention Alley, the HPfGU sponsored conference for grown-up Harry Potter fans to be held at the University of Ottawa from July 30- August 1, 2004. Online registration paid by credit card will close on July 20th. Payment by check or money order from outside of Canada must be received by July 1st, and Canadian checks/money orders must be received by July 10th. In addition, extra tickets for the birthday banquet featuring keynote speaker Steve Vander Ark on Saturday, July 31st and the luncheon featuring guest speaker Dr. Judith Robertson on Sunday, August 1st are available, but must be purchased by July 1st. Everything you need to know about registering for the conference and/or purchasing banquet/luncheon tickets may be found here: http://www.conventionalley.org/registration.html . Abstracts for the programming sessions have also been uploaded and may be seen here: http://www.conventionalley.org/programming.html . In addition, the Convention Alley planners are pleased to announce the availability of Convention Alley merchandise at Caf? Press. Visit this link to shop for t-shirts and other fun products: http://www.cafeshops.com/conalley . Sheryll Townsend 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! 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 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From supernovah76 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 20:50:49 2004 From: supernovah76 at hotmail.com (supernovah76) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:50:49 -0000 Subject: Ministry of Magic technical problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103740 While greatly respecting Rowling's work, I really think she has slipped up with the Ministry of Magic(MOM). Why is it that everyone can simply apparate into the Ministry of Magic (which is very relaxed as far as security is concerned)and disapparate without any problems? We know that they can do that even into the Department of Mysteries (why else would Dumbledore place a disapparating jinx on the dark wizards in the Death chamber?). Why was Harry needed to obtain the prophecy in the first place? Wouldn't it have been better for the recording to have been destroyed? Another thing: if Voldermort was so concerned about people noticing him, why would he have his whole sqad break into the MOM and take out any threats to help Harry along? Why not simply go in himself undercover via. polyjuice potion or whatnot and get it himself before disapparting? He really went out of his way to get Harry which doesn't make anymore sense than all the rest of it. But hey, that aside, I love the book! From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 30 20:55:36 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:55:36 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: <037f01c45ed1$d6176610$0300a8c0@astele> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ariana" wrote: > > Ally: > > > > I think the HBP is definitely Tom Riddle, a half blood like Harry. > > JKR said she almost used the title for COS, and COS was heavily > > focused on Tom Riddle (as opposed to V). > > But she also said that CoS, as published, bore no relation to the HBP > anymore. Which makes it extremely unlikely that it's Tom Riddle, since > Riddle *is* the focus of CoS. I really don't think she's playing games about > it *not* being Riddle/Voldemort. > I think she meant that "HBP" was no good as a TITLE anymore, once she'd finished Book 2. Sure, Tom Riddle is in it and he's important, but there's almost no background provided. If she'd called Book 2 "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince", wouldn't everyone be thinking what a stupid title that was? Because everything that would explain it was left out. I think she figured there was still lots of time to fill in the outline of Tom Riddle's life, and there was no sense overloading Book 2 with it. Tom works quite well as a villain just as he is, we don't really need to know much about his life and background. I don't believe that the HBP was a totally different character who was written out of CoS; she's been planning these books for years, and I don't think she'd have completely reorganized the project just to move a character from one book to another. I think she'd originally planned to put in a lot more about Tom's early life (and it wouldn't have been out of place, since we're meeting him in the book as a teenager), then decided to keep it for later on. Wanda From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 20:13:18 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:13:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sloppy References: Message-ID: <00ef01c45ede$af6b9330$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 103742 Oh, come on, folks, nobody's perfect, even J.K. is allowed to screw up occasionaly, no? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 21:08:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:08:17 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" > wrote: > > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a > prince, > > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by > asking > > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > > prince. That seems really unlikely. greatelderone: > How do you know that he bestowed it on himself. Perhaps it was a > nick name given to him by his fellow students at Hogwarts that he > later cast away after he rejected his heritage as a half-blood and > became obessessed with the whole pureblood supremacy thing? Geoff: But in COS, Tom demonstrates that the name came from creating an anagram of Tom Marvolo Riddle and to make a sensible one, it would seem that he had to include the word Lord, which probably pleased him immensely. I suppose he could have had a different name to Voldemort to fit the anagram. Also, Voldemort has a certain attraction for him because, as someone pointed out in post 75645, Voldemort is the French "vol de mort" meaning "flight of death". What better name for a seriously evil Dark Lord? From plungy116 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 20:57:49 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:57:49 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Hype Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103744 So, JK has already told us that its not Harry or Voldemort. Could it be somebody new? The Prisoner of Azkaban was Sirius, someone we had barely heard of before (except for Hagrid borrowing his motorbike). The philosopher (or sorcorer US version) was Flamel, who really doesn't seem to be integral to the overall plot (although reading the tit-bit found on JKR.com he could have been a bit more at some point). The Chamber was sealed, the Goblet... (what DID happen to the goblet?)What I'm trying to say is that the actual title may not give away as much as we are speculating. The titles of the books really don't tell us much by themselves - just generate speculation, hype (and ultimately money!!) I'm still going to speculate though, because that's why we're all here isn't it? I reckon it could be Neville, and even if its not, Neville is destined for such great things even his grandmother will be proud. It could be Hagrid, but I'm not sure that him being a Prince sits right with me - a tad unlikely. Dumbledore? Is he pure blood? Could it be someone who is dead, James for instance? Only JK knows for now, and we can throw up all the theories we want, she isn't going to tell us until we buy the book. I haven't actually added to the debate have I? Just my opinion I guess, but I think my money's on Nev. Sarah xx From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 21:16:58 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:16:58 -0000 Subject: A brother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" wrote: > ALSO - Can anyone cite the instance in which the boy in Slytherin, the "not- > so-bad" Slytherin made an appearance? Am I hallucinating, because I recall > his mentioning on this board at some point... Geoff: There are two Slytherin boys about whom we know no-thing or at least very little, namely Blaise Zabini and Theo Nott. In post 98628, where the "good" Slytherin was under consideration, OOTP "Seen and Unforeseen" p.514 UK edition was quoted where Nott is with Malroy & Co but did not seem to be showing the same hostility towards Harry. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 30 21:21:40 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:21:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours again References: <1088553413.14347.86123.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c45ee8$3c608a80$534c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 103746 Kneasy wrote: >I'd always assumed that DD surmised the probability of an attack on >the Potters from reading between the lines of the Prophecy. What we >don't know is how long the Potters were in hiding - a snippet of info >that could be enlightening. Did they suddenly rush off after a recent >warning (Snape perhaps?) or had they been in hiding for some time, >sort of on general principles? It matters, I think - it affects whatever >theory you want to put together. > >For the time being I'd prefer to keep it simple - the putative Fourth >Man can vamp 'till ready in the background until his appearance is >necessary to explain the inexplicable. >But if you want to posit an alternative.... Unless you think there's sufficient in the Prophecy to decide the exact date and time that Voldemort is going to arrive, then I don't think that would work. I _think_ that we're talking about a fairly short space of time that they were in hiding. But the biggest thing that supports the Fourth Person is just the short space of time in which the events take place. Point 1. Could someone have told Dumbledore at or just after the attack? Who? The Potters? I don't think they had time. If they'd seen Voldemort and Peter arrive, there might have just been time to rush out of the back door and disappear on broomsticks while he was breaking the front door down - time for Lily and Harry even if not for James. As we understand it, James was busy defending the house against Voldemort while Lily does a runner to Harry's room. Would she have had time to write a note and owl it to Dumbledore? I don't think so, even if she'd not been affected by the fact that the Arch Enemy was brutally murdering her husband downstairs. Likewise, I don't think she'd have risked being caught with her head in the fireplace trying to make a call through the Floo. A Death Eater? There's no way one of them would have got in touch with Dumbledore, unless it was someone trying to redeem themselves. In which case (and the same question would go for another member of the Order), why not rescue Harry? Why wait until Hagrid gets there to do it? A neighbour? Unless they were also a member of the Order, they would most likely have contacted the Ministry rather than Dumbledore. Point 2. There's been a very loud bang and a house collapsing where no one ever noticed one before. Hagrid reports that he just had time to get Harry out and away before the Muggles started swarming around (as well as having his chat with Sirius). Especially for someone like Hagrid (who's not officially supposed to use magic and has to get away before the Ministry arrives), travelling somewhere takes time, even if they go by some very fast method like a Thestral. Point 3. I'm not happy with the idea of a warning device - the big problem with any sort of device is that you have to have someone watching it at the other end to know there's a problem. All of these lead me to think that Dumbledore had advance knowledge, but not much. Just enough time to get a few people there, arriving in time to witness what happened but not to influence it. And I'm still with you about Dumbledore spending his time debriefing (or perhaps interrogating) the source of his information. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 21:15:20 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:15:20 -0000 Subject: All the reasons why Tom Riddle was the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: > Pandrea...I agree with all that you said...except the eye color > thing...JK has said on many occassions that Harry's eyes will play > an important part...she even mentioned how the director of PoA > unintentionally put in clues for the next books...and Lily's eyes > were mentioned a few times in that movie although I don't believe it > was really mentioned in that specific book. Oh. Well, I didn't know she'd said that, so I guess 'the eyes have it'! (sorry, bad pun) I still think it seems a bit lame, but maybe it will work out better than I can imagine; after all JK has a better imagination than I have! > And why can't the HBP be Godric Gryffindor? If we know tons about > the heir of Slytherin...don't you think it makes sence that she > changed the name of Book two...b/c she took the GG info out? Yes, this is the theory I'm buying into so far. Wanda wrote:>>Whoever the HBP is, that could be a title he gives himself, or that his followers give him, or even that his enemies give him. It could be said with a sneer, rather than in admiration. True, that's why I said a honorary title either adopted by him or given to him. Still, if given to Tom Riddle by enemies I suppose it would make sense that, not knowing TR was also Voldemort, the title would 'lapse' as it were. Leb wrote: >>Viktor Krum. I personally think it is highly likely that he will be the next DADA professor. He's a bit young, don't you think? Surely even in the wizarding world they don't appoint professors who have only stopped being students themselves a year ago? Don't they have Wizarding Teacher Training College?! Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 21:20:32 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:20:32 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103749 Brenna wrote: > In CoS, Dumbledore tells Harry that he is one of few people who know > Riddle to be Voldemort, and if it was a nickname given to him while > in school, wouldn't more people know about it? Also, the fact that > Tom Marvolo Riddle switched around spells "I am Lord Voldemort" says > to me that LV is a name he chose himself, and very creatively so. > I forgot all about that and now I'm wondering - who on earth did everyone else think Voldemort WAS then? Where did they imagine he'd come from? And did no one who was at school with Tom Riddle ever wonder what happened to him? The wizarding world is smaller than ours, you'd think someone would have put two and two together ... "hmm, remember that guy we were at school with? He disappeared around about the time Voldemort started trying to rule the world, could there be a connection?" In fact, wouldn't it be interesting if most people thought Tom Riddle was KILLED by Voldemort, perhaps he's even thought of as a hero? Pandrea From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:28:19 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:28:19 -0000 Subject: Book titles - Thoughts and Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Hey all. Hoping here that this is OT enough not to attract the wrath > of the List Elves. I was thinking about the book titles and how they > related to the stories that they belonged to. Here's a quick > summation (not that you guys need it, but just to show my point): > asian_lovr2: What could be more ON TOPIC than a discussion of the books themselves. > Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone: This is what was being hidden at > Hogwarts, a massive plot point, ... > > Chamber of Secrets: Where the Basilisk was hidden, and very nearly > where Harry and Ginny could have died. ... > > Prisoner of Azkaban: The only novel named after a character ..., > one who, ..., isn't even physically seen until the very last > chapters. ... > > Goblet of Fire: A relatively minor player in the novel, the Goblet's > one reason for involvement in the plot is to be hoodwinked by > Crouch!Moody and get Harry into the tournament. I always thought > that HP and the Triwizard Tournament would have been a better > title, ... > asian-lovr2: One comment here, a comment which I admit is a bit of a diversion. In a sense, to my way of thinking, the appearance of the 'Goblet of Fire' is a pivotal moment in the book. It's our first big 'OH CRAP!' moment when we know that something is definitely wrong. Prior to that, to my recollection, we have nothing but minor skirmishes and distractions. At the moment that Harry's name comes out of the Goblet, the true story begins. It's the point at which the minor details, clues, and curiosities from earlier in the book suddenly have value and meaning. It's the point at which all minor details, clues, and curiosities that follow gain their meaning. Like I said, things like the apearance of the Dark Mark at the QWC are just interesting curiousities. I'm sure Harry was concerned about it, but it wasn't really causing him any trouble. In fact, he and Ron clearly don't see what the big deal is. But when his name came out of the Goblet, as Sherlock Holms would say, 'the game was afoot'. While the Goblet itself is an indicental artifact, the scene in which the Goblet spits out the names sets the whole 'game afoot'. That doesn't address your original point, but I felt it was a note I had to make. > Meri: > > Order of the Phoenix: The group dedicated to the eradication of LV > and only the second title to be mentioned in a previous book ... > The Order ... will probably play a huge role in the upcoming books. > > So what can we deduce from HP and the Half Blood Prince? Well, who > ever it is doesn't stand a good chance for survival: the Prisoner of > Azkaban has allready died, as have a few members of the Order. Any > other thoughts related to the title? Could the Chamber (or even the > Stone or the Goblet) be back for more action? Who knows? > > Meri asian_lovr2: To preface my opinion on the next book, I would like to add these links- Section: Extra Stuff Opening Chapters of Philosopher's Stone http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=1 Section: Extra Stuff The Opening Chapter of Book Six http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=6 JKR had verions of the first chapters of PS/SS but, among other readson, didn't use them because they gave away to much info. The first part of PS/SS was difficult to write and to read partly because she had to give out a great deal of information, but had to hide much more. In that first chapter of PS/SS we are introduced to the Dursleys, but more importantly are given our first explanation of what happened to Harry's parents, and to Voldemort. That gives me the gut feeling that the first introductory chapters of the '...Half Blood Prince' will be an expansion of that explanation of Harry's parents, Godric's Hollow, and the backstory on Voldemort, but more importantly, the backstory on Tom Riddle. I foresee the book starting with an expansion of Tom Riddle's early history that gradually, as it develops and the detail are filled in, makes the transition to the story of Harry's parents, eventually leading to the night at Godric's Hollow. Exactly who will give us this information, I'm not sure; could be the narrator similar to the beginning of Goblet of Fire, could be an early heart-to-heart with Dumbledore, could be Lupin. Those seem like the most likely candidates. >From this I'm sure you can see that my belief is that Tom Riddle is the Half Blood Prince. I think we will see a lot more of Voldemort in this next book, although the bulk of it could be in narrative. Beyond Merlin himself, the four original founders of Hogwarts are probably the closest thing the wizard world has to royalty, and Tom is related to Slytherin, who may or may not have been good, but he was certainly great. Although, I will note that through out fictional history, wizards and kings have always been closely associated. During those times when the reigning king was not persecuting wizards, the Kings and Queens were usually seeking out the wise council of wizards and valued them greatly. Given the closeness of Royalty and wizards (Merlin & King Arthur), I don't think we can rule out the possibility of a real Crowned Prince entering the picture. Although, if it turns out to be Prince William, that will be, without a shadow of a doubt, another one of those 'OH CRAP!' moments. I am working on the idea of a possible encounter between Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and Prince William and Prince Harry/Henry. For reference to the ardent shippers, Ginny is dating Prince Harry (met him at a disco), and later, Hermione is dating Prince William (met him at the King's ball). Sorry for the side track. Just passing it along. Steve/asian_lovr2 From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:33:48 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:33:48 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > Which? Voldemort, or the Prince? I think Tom chose Voldemort as his > new name himself, marking his attempt to master death. As for the > Prince name, whether he chose it or it was bestowed on him by others, > it still seems unlikely he cast it away in favour of Lord. GEO: Why not? Being marked as a halfblood would not have made his life any easier in Slytherin especially since he was surrounded by mostly purebloods who regarded the muggleborns as scum and probably put him at the bottom of the social ladder because of his muggle father. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 20:21:16 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:21:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] funny quote References: Message-ID: <013901c45edf$cbeb9b30$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 103752 Oh, bravo! That quote about Crum and Crouch is so, so typical of Ron. Jolly, jolly good! June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:45:31 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:45:31 -0000 Subject: Book titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone: This is what was being hidden at > Hogwarts, a massive plot point, obviously, and what HRH and DD were > so keen to keep away from LV and Quirell (well, Snape, actually, but > y'all know that). It gets destroyed at the end of the book. > > Chamber of Secrets: Where the Basilisk was hidden, and very nearly > where Harry and Ginny could have died. Also a massive plot point, > and as far as we know it still exists. > > Prisoner of Azkaban: The only novel named after a character (with > the exception of Harry), one who, like the Chamber and the Stone, > isn't even physically seen until the very last chapters. He is, > sadly, like the Stone, no longer with us. GEO: So far so good. I agree that she has a thing for naming her novels with the McGuffins/plot devices that advance the plot. > > Goblet of Fire: A relatively minor player in the novel, the Goblet's > one reason for involvement in the plot is to be hoodwinked by Crouch! > Moody and get Harry into the tournament. I always thought that HP > and the Triwizard Tournament would have been a better title, just > because the TT is far more integral to the plot than the Goblet > itslef. The Goblet is seen relatively early in the action and not > seen again. GEO: Actually the original title of the book was HP and the Doomspell Tournament so you weren't really far off. > Order of the Phoenix: The group dedicated to the eradication of LV > and only the second title to be mentioned in a previous book (called > the "old crowd" in GoF, Sirius' mention in SS being the other). The > Order plays, like the Goblet, a relatively small part in the novel, > being seen only at the begining and the end. The Order is, as far as > we know, still in exsistence, and will probably play a huge role in > the upcoming books. GEO: I agree though she should have called it something in relation to the DoS and the prophecy room. > So what can we deduce from HP and the Half Blood Prince? Well, who > ever it is doesn't stand a good chance for survival: the Prisoner of > Azkaban has allready died, as have a few members of the Order. Any > other thoughts related to the title? Could the Chamber (or even the > Stone or the Goblet) be back for more action? Who knows? GEO: In the case of CoS, the point of who was the Heir of Slytherin, also was one of the main points that advanced the plot. The fact that she was originally going to call CoS, the halfblood prince might also be an indication that the HBP is also an alias of Tom Riddle or perhaps the equivalent of the heir of slytherin before the title change. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 30 21:47:23 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:47:23 -0000 Subject: Book titles - Thoughts and Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Given the closeness of Royalty and wizards (Merlin & King Arthur), I > don't think we can rule out the possibility of a real Crowned Prince > entering the picture. Although, if it turns out to be Prince William, > that will be, without a shadow of a doubt, another one of those 'OH > CRAP!' moments. Well, in that case, calling him the "Half Blood Prince" might lead to some unpleasant speculation on just what his mother was getting up to, and I doubt JKR wants to introduce THAT particular twist into her story. Not if she's hoping for a title some day, that is! Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jun 30 21:53:40 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:53:40 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > I forgot all about that and now I'm wondering - who on earth did > everyone else think Voldemort WAS then? Where did they imagine he'd > come from? And did no one who was at school with Tom Riddle ever > wonder what happened to him? The wizarding world is smaller than > ours, you'd think someone would have put two and two > together ... "hmm, remember that guy we were at school with? He > disappeared around about the time Voldemort started trying to rule > the world, could there be a connection?" And the fact that the name "Lord Voldemort" was actually known by Riddle's close friends at school! Sure, he disappeared after graduation, and then when he reappeared he was basically unrecognizable, but didn't someone hear the name and say, "Hey, that's what we used to call good old Tom Riddle back at Hogwarts! Funny thing about Tom, we just lost touch after graduation - he never comes to the reunions. I wonder what he's up to these days?" Maybe his closest friends became his first Death Eaters, and the secret stayed within the original circle. But I wonder whatever happened to those friends of his? How old would they be now? I figured maybe about Fudge's age... Wanda From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:56:23 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:56:23 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > And the fact that the name "Lord Voldemort" was actually known by > Riddle's close friends at school! Sure, he disappeared after > graduation, and then when he reappeared he was basically > unrecognizable, but didn't someone hear the name and say, "Hey, > that's what we used to call good old Tom Riddle back at Hogwarts! > Funny thing about Tom, we just lost touch after graduation - he > never comes to the reunions. I wonder what he's up to these days?" > Maybe his closest friends became his first Death Eaters, and the > secret stayed within the original circle. But I wonder whatever > happened to those friends of his? How old would they be now? I > figured maybe about Fudge's age... GEO: Actually they'd be around McGonagall's age. In fact she attended Hogwart during the same years that Voldemort was there. From jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 21:43:32 2004 From: jamesellison at dsl.pipex.com (slurdodger) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:43:32 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > > > I think the HBP is definitely Tom Riddle, a half blood like Harry. > JKR said she almost used the title for COS, and COS was heavily > focused on Tom Riddle (as opposed to V). She's also said somewhere > that Book 3 and 6 would mirror each other, which makes me think we're > again going to get a Riddle focus. Who else makes sense as the HBP? J.K. also said that the title didn't really make much sense anymore when she'd finished with the book.. perhaps this is because she cut parts about Riddle and his lineage? I think it's more likely that "the prince" was either given a severely reduced role or discluded altogether. This might indicate that the prince could be Salazar or Godrich, too. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 21:26:29 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:26:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103758 Robyn wrote: >But Sirius > convinces James and Lily to change him as the sk to Peter right? And > he never thought that Peter was going to run to Voldemort or be the > spy... Well that said, he thought he was doing the smart and wise > thing... Was it a bad descion? Yes.. but with hindsight. And you can't > really blame him for not knowing that Peter was the spy. But I think > it's a bit harsh to say it's his fault Harry was made an orphan. He > thought what he was doing was the best thing that could be done and > only with hindsight was it the worst thing he could have done. Hence > what a great spy Peter was. Don't forget that Sirius originally suspected Lupin of being the spy. He probably convinced James & Lily to switch to Peter so that he could go off and lead Lupin astray, drawing attention away from Peter. Of course it turned out he was dead wrong. Oops. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:56:49 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:56:49 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor + DA Club In-Reply-To: <20040630173014.19888.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amber_ Falls wrote: > vmonte: > > > Molly as potions teacher? I would have never thought of > > > this. I know you are probably joking, but I would love > > > to see a nurturing person as potions teacher for a change. > > > > Making Snape a DADA teacher would be interesting, but can > > > DD get away with using Snape? He was a DE after all. Still, > > > I would like to see what Snape's boggart would look like... > > Potioncat: > > Well, only half joking. She seems fairly skilled in many ways. > > And we've reason to believe she sat her NEWTS. Given the > > standards she sets for the kids, I expect she did well at school. > Amber: > I don't think it would be wise to put Molly as DADA > teacher. Ron and Ginny are still at Hogwarts. On the > other hand she could favour the Gryffindor students > for a change ;) Asian_lovr2: I WANT Molly to be a teacher and even suggested her as the 'female' DADA teacher that was scheduled to appear in OotP. I think she would be adequate at either potions or DADA, but the real point and the real fun would be seeing Harry and Ron have her as a teachers. As much as I want it for the sheer fun of it, I don't think it will happen. > > Amber: > I think it must count that after all this time DD > hasn't offered Snape the position to teach DADA. > I mean goes to a lot of trouble to find another DADA > teacher. Why not give it to Snape and look for Potion > teacher. asian_lovr2: I'm sure Dumbledore had is good and valid reasons for not making Snape the DADA teacher. Among others, casting dangerous spells and teaching students to cast dangerous spells as well as exposing them to dangerous dark creatures, doesn't seem like something Snape has the disposition for. It would seem that he could do far less potential damage teaching potions, than teaching dangerous spells. However, Dumbledore has lost the luxury of casual choice. There is a full blown war on now. Voldemort is back and the Death Eaters are active. Dumbledore can no longer afford to 'take what he can get'. He can't afford to bring in maginally competent teachers like Quirrel, Lockhart, or Umbridge. It's time to get serious, deadly serious, serious as a heart attack. Snape might not be a pleasant person, but I have no doubt that he is a powerful and knowledgable wizard. And I have no doubt that his is extremely skilled at Defense Against Dark Art by virtue of he FAR above average knowledge of the Dark Arts. It's time to bring in an outstandingly qualified teacher, and the only person we know of who fits that bill is Snape. I have to believe the the continual and repeated references to Snape wanting and applying for the DADA job have some significants. I think the significants is that Snape finally gets it, and true to the curse of the DADA teacher, that will be the book in which Snape dies a heroic death, and full redeems himself in the eyes of Harry & friends. Snape is a nasty piece of work, but he is also powerful, knowledgable, and highly skilled. It do believe that the DA Club will continue, run by Harry but with Snape as an advisor. I think among the students, Snapes nastiness in the classroom will be tempered by Harry in the DA Club. I feel the DA Club must continue. They have 25 core members who are trained who can now help Harry teach, and the need for this club is greater than it has ever been; absolutely critical, I would say. And, just think of all the fun we will have watching Harry and Snape butt heads in the classroom and in the Club. Just trying to help. Steve/asian_lovr2 From plungy116 at aol.com Wed Jun 30 21:15:11 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:15:11 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Hype In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "haraheart" wrote: > I haven't actually added to the debate have I? Just my opinion I > guess, but I think my money's on Nev. > Sarah xx My son reliably informs me that of course Neville is pureblood, but he thinks that Seamus is a good candidate...the debate continues Sarah xx (and Mikey xx) From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 21:59:10 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:59:10 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: <20040630200002.26873.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103761 > Amber: > > At the bottom of the page is there a series of numbers > from one to twenty. Maybe I have the 20th edition?? The series of numbers from one to twenty are significant. The lowest number on the right indicates the which printing you have. To the best of my knowledge they are all still in the first edition. If your copy has a string of numbers starting with 1, then you have a first run printing, and in good condition, it's probably already worth more than you paid for it. ;) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 30 22:10:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:10:49 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor + DA Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103762 > > > Amber: > > I don't think it would be wise to put Molly as DADA > > teacher. Ron and Ginny are still at Hogwarts. On the > > other hand she could favour the Gryffindor students > > for a change ;) > > Asian_lovr2: > > I WANT Molly to be a teacher and even suggested her as the 'female' > DADA teacher that was scheduled to appear in OotP. I think she would > be adequate at either potions or DADA, but the real point and the real > fun would be seeing Harry and Ron have her as a teachers. As much as I > want it for the sheer fun of it, I don't think it will happen. > Potioncat: I"m sure other teachers have had children at Hogwarts. I'd almost bet money that Sprout and McGonagall have both had kids come through. And it would be lots of fun seeing Molly teaching Ron and Ginny! But, I don't think it will happen either. > > > asian_lovr2: > > I'm sure Dumbledore had is good and valid reasons for not making Snape > the DADA teacher. Among others, casting dangerous spells and teaching > students to cast dangerous spells as well as exposing them to > dangerous dark creatures, doesn't seem like something Snape has the > disposition for. It would seem that he could do far less potential > damage teaching potions, than teaching dangerous spells. > > I feel the DA Club must continue. They have 25 core members who are > trained who can now help Harry teach, and the need for this club is > greater than it has ever been; absolutely critical, I would say. And, > just think of all the fun we will have watching Harry and Snape butt > heads in the classroom and in the Club. > Potioncat: So, why did DD allow Snape to fill in for Lupin if he would be dangerous in the position? Or did he slip in and only teach the Trio's class? Yes, I'd love to see that conflict if Snape did get DADA. But I have to say for the record, I'm not fully convinced he wants it. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:17:47 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:17:47 -0000 Subject: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103763 Wanda wrote: I don't see the terms as being all that exclusionary. Lord and Prince can be used to describe the same person; how many different titles does Jesus have? King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace (and that's just going by memory from the Hallelujah Chorus!). Whoever the HBP is, that could be a title he gives himself, or that his followers give him, or even that his enemies give him. It could be said with a sneer, rather than in admiration. vmonte responds: Kind of like -- Weasley is our King! LOL From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 30 22:25:59 2004 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:25:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: Child of Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103764 Child of Prophecy based on "Edge of Seventeen" by Stevie Nicks AN: I tried to retain as much of the original punctuation as I could, random ellipses and all, since it seems as appropriate for JKR as it is for Nicks. Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who? Who? Who? Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? And the theories fly Back and forth on the list Trying hard to figure out What is going on Searching for clues... Waiting for the next book. Tell us, Joanne, who's the baby, then? Who will reveal the power hidden within him? Who is destined... to face up to... Voldemort... tell us who Is the child of prophecy Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who? Who? Who? Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? I read today... maybe I'll reread again Tomorrow. All the plot twists there are so thoroughly... Confusing. Dumbledore, he says "I will explain everything" With the tale of the first war And the words of a prophet. It's confusing me... I don't understand it. Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who? Who? Who? Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? The Dark Lord thinks it's Harry... Is it true? Will the plot change direction? Will Joanne... Give a clue? Oh, Jo... let us know... how the blow... Will fall? Who will strike... at the Dark Lord... Oh, please... tell us... Who's the child of... prophecy Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who? Who? Who? Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? The prophecy... What does it... imply about... free will? Yeah yeah... We're all so confused. How is it ever going to come true? Come on, Jo, spill! Oh, I went searching for an answer... On the list... and on your site... But found no answer, Though I searched all night On my laptop... surfing... Need a clue, need a clue Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who? Who? Who? Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? I'm obsessing in the morning... And obsessing... At nightfall... Despite all this reading... I appear not to be... succeeding Oh, Jo... Just how many years till Book Six? (How many years to go till Book Six?) Oh, Jo... Now that we've read the book, We're all sitting here and thinking, Who, Joanne, who? Say who? (repeat, over and over, as the music fades) Marina Frants rusalka at ix.netcom.com From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:31:03 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:31:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin as DA advisor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103765 All this talk of Snape being DADA has got me thinking. I think he will stay in Potions - DD has a reason for him being there, and I trust DD to make the right decision on that. I guess. *is thinking about how he messed up by not telling Harry everything sooner* ANYWAY. We know no one wants a werewolf teaching their kids, but what if he secretly advised the DA? He and Sirius did give Harry some DADA books for Christmas, remember? And JKR said he would feature more in the next two books. Without being an actual teacher at Hogwarts, an advisor is the only place I see him helping Harry and Company. Maybe Mad Eye will actually get to be the DADA professor in the next book. Lupin could still advise the DA... just some thoughts. Alora From lyyved at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 22:39:28 2004 From: lyyved at earthlink.net (Lynn Eddy) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:39:28 -0400 Subject: Missed Opportunities in PoA movie -Was Re: GoF Reduction Discussion Message-ID: <58C6BE9E-CAE6-11D8-A87E-000393BC2348@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103766 Ariana wrote: > > (Having said that, PoA wasted a good chunk of screen time on the > Knight Bus, which served no useful purpose to the plot compared to > say, explaining who the Marauders were, so I don't know that they > won't succumb to the "cool" factor of the World Cup and skip the > whole 'Moody is actually Crouch Jr' plot instead! :) I really thought the director missed a great opportunity in the movie with the Knight Bus. It wasn't very funny in the movie with the bus careening around. What was hysterical in the book was the idea of Muggle things getting out of the way of the bus. And because it condensed to be set in London, I had mental pictures of Harry staring in bemused horror out the window, saying something like "Wasn't that ..........Buckingham Palace?" as the bus approached and then went under the suddenly arched middle section of the Palace. Laura Peregrine From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:59:13 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:59:13 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys and the HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103767 I don't really like where I'm going with this post, but it's eating at me so here goes (I just hope nobody else posted the same exact theory before) 1. As was repeated throughout OoP, "Weasley is our king" 2. As many have commented on previously, many of the Weasley family members bear names relating directly to royalty, whether historical or fictional : Arthur, William, Charles, Ginevra, etc... 3. The Weasleys are famous for being a bunch of blood-traitors. But where did they get that reputation ? What did they do to make others believe that they don't care about blood purity ? Obviously, it's not a matter of Arthur or Molly or any of their ancestors marrying a non-pure-blood, so what can it be ? 4. We know that Arthur is fond of anything and everything muggle. Well, I hate to ask that, but how fond of Muggles is Arthur *exactly* ? I really don't like where that reasoning is taking me (I'm not tough like Kneasy or Pippin, I don't like making horrible assumptions about beloved characters ;-), but I can't help it. Here we have a pureblood family, about whom several allusions of royalty have been made, who are known for being blood-traitors, and whose father is inordinately fond of Muggles. So I have to ask : is there a dark secret hidden under the loving surface of Arthur and Molly Weasley's couple ? Or has someone been lying about their ancestry ( if one of the parents is not in fact pure-blood, then all the Weasley kids could be considered half-blood ), and if so, why ? Del From lyyved at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 23:03:00 2004 From: lyyved at earthlink.net (Lynn Eddy) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:03:00 -0400 Subject: Favorite HP lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103768 Favorite serious lines: (besides many of those already mentioned. Sorry if any of those listed below are repetitions of previous posts.) From Dumbledore at the end of PS/SS ".... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." From Remus in PoA "Don't expect me to cover up for you again, Harry. 1 cannot make you take Sirius Black seriously. But 1 would have thought that what you have heard when the dementors draw near you would have had more of an effect on you. Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them - gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." Favorite Funny lines From PoA after Percy has done his pompous greeting of Harry, the twins take over. "Harry!" said Fred, elbowing Percy out of the way and bowing deeply. "Simply splendid to see you, old boy_" "Marvelous, " said George, pushing Fred aside and seizing Harry's hand in turn. "Absolutely spiffing." Percy scowled. "That's enough, now, " said Mrs. Weasley. "Mum!" said Fred as though he'd only just spotted her and seizing her hand to. "How really corking to see you_" Laura Peregrine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 23:08:42 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:08:42 -0000 Subject: HBP minor candidates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103769 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Very likely. After all, the founder of the Bulgarian nation was the legendary Khan Krum, know as "The Terrible" for his habit of drinking (wine? blood?) from the silver plated skull of an enemy. Regulus (Latin) and "basilisk" (Greek) both mean "little king". Then there's Prince, the singer, who's a *teeny* little guy and might be said to have half the blood volume of a normal-sized person. --JDR (time for my meds, now) From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 23:08:42 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:08:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103770 Kneasy: >snipped< Nurture or nature? Do bloodlines define the person in the Potterverse, or is it up-bringing? Or both? Snow: I have to say that this particular line brought to mind two specific individuals. One is Harry and the other is Voldemort. There relationship as far as upbringing is quite similar as are there bloodlines and yet differences "It is our choices " Kneasy: 2. Sirius may not be able to divulge the Potters hiding place (presumably that location vanished from his mind when handing over his duties), but he does know who the new SK is. He must, otherwise he can't contact the Potters when necessary. Snow: Two points two this statement actually. The first would be that I would have to trust that Peter had actually been made SK according to Sirius' request. The second is more of a question, why would you feel that Sirius needs to contact or has contact with the Potters? Sirius said GOF pg. 365 " The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter " Sirius arranged previously to check on Peter. Kneasy: 3. Sirius would last about 5 minutes under intensive Voldy pressure. Not only is Voldy one of the two most powerful wizards in the world with a whole range of 'persuasive' spells at his finger-tips, he's also a mind-reader of note. And there's only two recorded Occlumency adepts in the books - expecting Sirius to be another is asking a bit too much IMO. Snow: I think you might be wrong here Kneasy. Sirius wouldn't have lasted a minute with Voldemort because when Voldy gave him the ultimatum of tell or be killed he would have died. Kneasy: Then the aftermath. More strokes of Black genius. He arrives at the house. As the supposed SK he's the prime suspect for the betrayal of the Potters. Does he proclaim his innocence? No. Just this one time, at a moment when his penchant for excuses might actually do him some good, he keeps his mouth shut. Why? >snip< Snow: Possibly because his very best friend is lying in rubble and Sirius feels it is all his fault because he felt guilty (as in the Shrieking Shack) of Indirectly betraying his friend. Kneasy: Instead he goes off after Peter. To kill him. There's just one person who could clear him - and that's the one he tries to kill. Now if I had a suspicious nature I'd wonder at that. Clearing away loose ends, perhaps? Making sure there's nobody left to contradict his tale? How convenient. And no trial. Why not? Fear of what he might say in court? He can say nothing that would harm the 'good' side, but he could conceivably let the cat out of the bag where Voldy supporters are concerned. So he's quickly hustled off to the slammer where he sits for 12 years. Snow: You're right. How dare Sirius care about his dead friends more than himself and his own hide at this point. No trial you say, good point I say. Pretend for a moment that Sirius is innocent what would you say then to the who's afraid of Sirius talking too much? Kneasy: I've covered his 'escape' from Azkaban in some detail in post 79808, no need to go through it all again - suffice it to say that his story is full of holes and a good case can be made for his 'escape' being the result of a deliberate conspiracy (probably by Fudge). The only question is whether or not Sirius was a knowing participant in the plan or an unwitting catspaw. Once again he has one aim. Kill Peter. After 12 years of sitting around, claiming that it was only the knowledge that he was innocent that kept him sane, his preferred first action is to kill the one person who could actually *prove* his innocence. Some people never learn. Snow: I do honestly agree with you here. This scene in anyone's eyes should certainly look like a set-up, but by whom? Kneasy: >Snipped< The Godfather bit I consider to be a red herring. In the UK 'Godfather' is a purely symbolic title and confers no rights nor places responsibilities/obligations on the recipient. Of course, Godfather does have another meaning, ask Mario Puzo. Snow: Have to correct you a bit here. POA pg. 379 "Well your parents appointed me your guardian," said Black stiffly. "Guardian" is much more than just a Godfather. Kneasy: Would you hand a child over to such a person? No - and neither will DD. He's not to be trusted with the care of someone as critical to DD's plan as Harry is. Snow: Now, I am one of your biggest allies! It all comes back to DD and his ultimate plan. This still doesn't make it necessary to have an ESE Sirius. Snow From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 30 23:41:00 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:41:00 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur > dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look > under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur > Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All othe characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we > know are dead). Marianne: Not necessarily. In JKR's comments on her site about one of her award-winning fan sites (whose name escapes me at the moment) she quite clearly states that Sirius Black's eyes "are grey." Very much a present tense, even though we all know about that pesky veil. Perhaps the reference to Arthur means that one or more of the brothers has died, or it may be simply a bit of sloppy language. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 30 23:51:02 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:51:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103772 Kneasy: > It's to be expected many of the softer-hearted fans are suckers for the > 'damaged hero' figure in fiction. Handsome, anguished, just a touch > dangerous - oooh! Personal fantasies go into overdrive and denial sets > in - "He can't be bad - I like him!" > > Oh yes he can. And he probably is. Marianne: Except for the "handsome" part, the above paragraph would cover a lot of the Snape fans, too! He's dangerous, he's mysterious, he billows, he's vampirish, he's damaged...Need I go on? Marianne From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 23:56:58 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:56:58 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor + DA Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amber_ Falls > wrote: > > vHuge Snip I think > the significants is that Snape finally gets it, and true to the curse > of the DADA teacher, that will be the book in which Snape dies a > heroic death, and full redeems himself in the eyes of Harry & friends. > > > Steve/asian_lovr2 Sue: If that's the case, it's bound to be the last book. Can you imagine the series ending without him? :-) I think, also, that the theme is for there to be a new DADA teacher in each novel. If not, she's left it a bit late to change! ;-) From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jun 30 22:26:31 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:26:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <40DBEC0D.2364.4302F6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103774 One of the most fascinating things about joining a mailing list is finding out just how many opinions there are out there in the world. ;-) And one of the most interesting things about this mailing list is the effort to create back stories for the issues we ourselves bring to the books we read. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > More often than not, these decisions don't cause any major > problems. But there's a sizeable minority of cases where they do > lead to various issues arising in a family, including > 'estrangement'. This is the term we use for cases where cultural > differences between the school culture and the home culture cause > any form of unusual distance between members of a family. What I find interesting about this discussion is the assumption that Hermione's parents find a huge disconnect between the wizarding world and their own world. JKR doesn't give us any evidence of this, and so it's entirely possible that Hermione's parents find her experience at Hogwart's to be as exciting as she does, and that they simply accept that this is how things are. As for Hermione's choices, I can totally understand choosing between time with my family (as much as I love my own family) and hanging out with the most powerful people in the WW who are at the heart of the most important thing to have happened in it many years. It's a no-brainer. ;-) I don't think JKR is implying in any way that there is a problem between Hermione and her parents and between their Muggle lives and her wizarding life. I also think JKR is glossing over, or shorthanding, descriptions of Hermione's life outside of Hogwarts purely because the books are already quite long and the stories quite complex. Hermione is bright, mature, and well-adjusted; I don't think there is any hint of a problem in her relationship with her parents, nor, I am emboldened to say, do I think JKR means for us to fine one. I find this discussion similar to the one about Harry's mental health and my personal reaction is the same--the world JKR creates is not meant to correspond one-to-one to the world we live in; quite the opposite instead. She's created a fantasy world where the usual rules pretty much do not apply, and that's why I think it's perhaps not very productive to try to investigate things that really aren't there. > If I was Mr and Mrs Granger, the more I loved my daughter, the more > hurt I would be by all of this. From their perspective, their > daughter wants to spend more time with the Weasleys than she does > them. Except we don't know this for a fact. I think if JKR meant for us to think there were problems between Hermione and her parents then it would be pretty clear in the text. > But honestly... I'd be hard pressed to see how they can still be > having a healthy real relationship with their daughter. > > One weeks contact in 20 months? And a a daughter, who it seems > likely is concealing large aspects of her life from them? > > If they love each other, it may be that they'll be able to rebuild > a new relationship, but I really doubt that what they have at the > moment is particularly healthy. Except 1. we don't have all of the facts to do a case study and 2. this is not, at least not at the moment, an important plot point--the book is not a psychological study of various families and the effects of this strange boarding school on them. It's a fantasy about a young boy who becomes a hero. So think it's OK to assume that all is well within the Granger family. jujube, who is still s l o w l y getting caught up on digests From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Wed Jun 30 22:27:07 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:27:07 -0000 Subject: A brother? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" > wrote: > > What if Harry had a sibling of some sort? > > Well ... his parents are pretty definitely dead, dead and buried. So > the sibling would have to be older. And therefore people like > Sirius, Dumbledore etc would know of its existence. I find it > unbelievable that they would know such a thing and not tell Harry. JK reminds us that Harry has NO family other than the Dursleys, and thus far, they have been insufferable. It seems that all of the surprises come from James as well - MWP and P, being an animagus, and the invisibility cloak. What if one last surprise would be grandparents, or some other family/sibling outside of what has been mentioned. It wouldn't be out of nowhere, because JK hasn't told us ANYTHING about James's life, which, as an English major, reads "trick up sleeve"...or has she? Can anyone cite anything? "notyourpoet" From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:33:09 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neville as HPB (was: New to this but, have opinions.) In-Reply-To: <008901c45edd$e7666f90$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <20040630223309.89067.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103776 Firedancer wrote: You know what, if the h.b.p. is on our side, I hope it's Neville. He carried himself so well in Book Five, I have to think we'll see more great things from him. Who's side is the prince supposed to be on? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! I agree, I would love for it to be him. Neville has had a minor part in the story so far, but he has been in every one of them. JK could have not put some of the things that she did with him, but she did. If the prince is on our side, then it might be him. I don't think that she would put a new person, or a person who gets a lot of attention. GBK From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:35:46 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630223546.34982.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103778 > > > Ginger wrote: > > > The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know that > > > the basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > > > > > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > > > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > > > > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP. Maybe that is true, but don't you think that JK would come up with something new. Also if he is then the question is still, who is the prince. We don't know a thing about him if it's true. GBK From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Wed Jun 30 22:36:05 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:36:05 -0000 Subject: Book titles - Thoughts and Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103780 All good observations, but I would like to reiterate a point someone already said... All of those titles - PS, CoS, PoA, GoF, OotP - we learn about what the title's namesake is IN the book. The Stone is only mentioned in Book 1, the Chamber only in book 2, ect... The ONLY exception would be the references to the Order, but it wasn't given a name until the 5th book... So, maybe to quiet our minds, we haven't met the half-blood prince yet...and the reason it was a working title for CoS is because we didn't meet the real heir of Slytherin, or a character wasn't in the book that she originally intended... "notyourpoet" From bd88ns at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jun 30 22:41:27 2004 From: bd88ns at blueyonder.co.uk (linda) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:41:27 -0000 Subject: half blood prince, a reminder from the chamber of secrets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103781 I have followed the flow of the debate on this and I think the jury will be out until we get our hands on the book. However, and forgive me if it has already been mentioned, cast your mind back to the Chamber of Secrets where Dobby was trying to warn Harry not to return to school. Harry asked if the reason was Voldemort and Dobby was most insistant that the problem was not 'he who must not be named' ie Voldemort, the logic being that before he became Voldemort aka he who must not be named, he could be freely named as Tom Riddle. There seems even at this early point to be a distinct difference of identity between the two. It's just a thought; play nicely with it. Also, if the great lady herself choses names that seem to fit the bill should we discount Gilderoy Lockhart. "Linda" From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:43:06 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630224306.36174.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103782 anthyroserain wrote: aboutthe1910s: > Okay, so when Voldie possesses Harry in the end of OotP, and Harry > thinks of Sirius, the warm, squishy feelings drive our friend Voldie > out of Harry. From his own body, the warm squishies are merely > repulsive, but bearable. But imagine if Harry were to somehow find in > his heart *pity* or some kind of compassion/forgiveness for Voldie... > These kind of feelings, actually directed specifically at Voldemort, > even from some distance, would most likely be more than Voldemort > could bear. Not that I think that Voldemort deserves forgiveness, or > that it would be remotely fair to ask it of Harry... I'm just saying, > if he could find it in himself to forgive Voldemort, I really think it > would destroy Voldie. Voldemort crushed! by warm, squishies! And it > plays into the whole deal with Harry having the power that Voldie has > not, blah, blah... Katie: I love this idea. I totally bet it's in book 7. I think forgiveness is more potent against evil than any other type of "love". And it fits perfectly with everything that Dumbledore has said, not to mention the prophecy: "mark him as his equal" - the Dark Lord thinking our boy is Slytherinesque, desiring power above all else; "but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" - that would be the capacity to even love or forgive those who had hurt him. Not to mention that Neville could come in here too, because he has less reason to forgive Voldemort than anybody. I think everyone will *think* the power will lie in Harry's love for his parents, when actually it will lie in the far less likely love for Voldemort. I'm sure that everyone thinks that it's some kind of emotion that helps Harry, though not many people have thought on how he would put it to use. I agree with you on this, and Harry is not the type to want to kill anyone. He may be able to think on the similarities with Voldie in their lives, and pity him for the things that were worse. Somehow I think that if Voldie got to Harry before Hagrid did and lied to him, with the way that his life was going, he would have helped Voldie because of that connection. I'm sure that he would not forgive him, however, he may be able to see connections that will help him with this. The other parts might come from the fact that he Harry has people to love him and Voldie doesn't, he would pity him for never feeling that kind of love. GBK From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:45:42 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur is DEAD? + HP Fav Lines E-Mail to Brenda!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630224542.76108.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103785 >>> Kneazelkid wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur > dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look > under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says Arthur > Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All other characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we > know are dead). This could be true. She says on the site that she words everything the way that it is meant to be. So he may be who dies in the next book. GBK From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jun 30 22:43:21 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:43:21 +1100 Subject: Harry'sPowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103786 on 1/7/2004 3:56 AM, mcmaxslb at McGregorMax at ec.rr.com wrote: > I don't think that the weapon is either a object or a person per say. > The ultimate weapon against evil is love and Harry will have to feel > a great love,true love, to defeat LV. Harry has powers against Voldemort which resulted in their being 'linked'. Perhaps after her experience with Tom Riddle, Ginny might also prove to have some residual effects which might lead to her standing with Harry at the end. (Also, given that Ron and Hermione seem to be a 'couple' it seems quite likely that Harry and Ginny might end up together, so that would fit quite nicely.) From lmenard at shentel.net Wed Jun 30 23:06:57 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:06:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Half-Blood??????? References: Message-ID: <007901c45ef6$f39ee8a0$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 103788 > > HunterGreen: > I guess there's only three terms: muggle- > > born, half-blood, or pure-blood, > Jen: Harry would be a full-blood wizard, but not a pure-blood > wizard. We're not really given any information how far back you have > to go to become 'pure-blood', but I'm sure Lucius knows the magical > number ;). Laura here: According to the Harry Potter Lexicon- ( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/blood-status-names.html ) pureblood - a witch or wizard of 'pure' wizarding ancestry, without any Muggle ancestors whatsoever as far as can be determined half-blood - at least one wizarding parent but at least one Muggle parent or grandparent Muggle-born wizarding person born of two Muggle parents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 23:11:07 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:11:07 -0000 Subject: Lupin as DA advisor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alora" wrote: > All this talk of Snape being DADA has got me thinking. I think he > will stay in Potions - DD has a reason for him being there, and I > trust DD to make the right decision on that. I guess. *is thinking > about how he messed up by not telling Harry everything sooner* I've been thinking that maybe the reason that DD doesn't want Snape as DADA prof. is because there really is a jinx on the job and Snape is to valuable for something to happen to him? I dunno, just a thought. "halli" From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 23:46:15 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:46:15 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (was The Longbottoms-a theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103790 I'm so happy I finally found this! I read it and had to get off immediatly afterward, but I've been wanting to say something. Hope no one else thought of it already...anyways...on to the point. vmonte said: > > I would really like to know who was thrown out the night of > > Trelawny's prophecy... I think that it was Mungdungus. If I'm not mistaken, (Which I might be I don't have the book with me) it's mentioned that he did something in the past that needs forgiving/DD forgave him for...this could be it. Also he was banned from the Hogs Head 20 years ago, so if he was caught inside he would be immediatly thrown out, regardless of whether he got caught eavesdropping. He's a theif, and from what I gather not to intelligent, he could have told someone who worked for VM without knowing or he could've simply assumed that VM could protect him or something, I'm not solid on that point. The reason he's so loyal to DD is because DD forgave him, he could have thought the person he was telling about the prophecy was on DD's side. Someone tell me if you've discussed this before, I have no idea, but thats what usually happens when i post. Good Times. Good Times. -halli