[HPforGrownups] OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 101733

On 17 Jun 2004 at 3:52, dzeytoun wrote:

> OK folks, I think we've reached the point people always seem to reach 
> when discussing Severus Snape.  We've boiled down into two mutually 
> antagonistic camps, and there's not much of a chance in all the 
> infernal regions that anyone is going to budge.  We can spit poison 
> at each other till the end of Book VII and I don't think it's going 
> to make the slightest change in anybody's outlook.  I will confess 
> that I myself have a totally closed mind on this point and nothing 
> anybody says will ever convince me that Snape is not a dangerous and 
> abusive menace who should be summarily tossed out on his greasy 
> behind.  Let's just save our blood vessels, tell ourselves quietly 
> that we will NEVER understand how anybody with any sense could ever 
> believe THAT, and move on.

Well, actually... I was still very much enjoying and interested in 
the discussion personally. Nobody has to reply to any post, of 
course, unless they choose to - but, personally speaking I don't 
see any reason to stop discussing things even if there are camps, 
even if there is rocksolid disagreement between the participants in 
the discussion - there's a lot of lurkers out there who may be 
finding it interesting as well.

As for the idea that apparently people can't understand each others 
position, well, on the contrary. I *can* easily understand why 
someone would believe that Snape is ' a dangerous and  abusive 
menace who should be summarily tossed out on his greasy behind.' 
(Well, I'm not sure how anyone could make an accurate assessment of 
the greasiness or otherwise of Snape's behind... but I'm sure the 
answer would be fascinating (-8 ). I find it incredibly easy to 
understand why people might feel that way, in fact. Just because I 
don't agree with a position, doesn't make me incapable of 
understanding why somebody else would believe that.  
 
> For the record, I don't think these questions will ever be settled, 
> even in Book VII.  Even if JKR reveals how SHE sees Snape, many 
> people are likely not to agree with her.  After she says, in 
> effect, "see he really is ......" many people are going to say, "No 
> wait a minute, no he's not."

Absolutely. But what's the harm in that? There's quite a few issues 
discussed on this list where JKR has made her views known - and 
some people agree, and some people disagree. JKR can certainly tell 
us her own beliefs and her own intentions about her characters, or 
about Hogwarts, or about dozens of other issues - but she can't 
compell us to agree with her - and, honestly, I'd be fairly 
surprised if she'd even want to - I think most authors would be 
delighted to know their works stir up controversy and passionate 
discussion.

The simple fact is, this issue matters to me - and there's probably 
a great many people it doesn't matter to. But I work week in and 
week out with kids who are facing many of the same issues I did - 
and when I say kids, I'm talking about people from age 4-20 at this 
stage (actually the oldest is probably around 22 or so now, but 
I've reluctantly accepted she's no longer a kid). A lot of these 
kids are *very* attracted to the world they see in Harry Potter - 
and a couple I know of have significant contact with rather Snape 
like teachers - who they value in the same way I value the ones I 
encountered... regarding such teachers as irredeemably abusive - 
well, to a great extent, that comes very close to telling these 
kids if they are reading, that there is something *wrong* with them 
- or that their experiences as students are somehow less valuable 
or less correct than the people who like all their wonderfully 
kind, compassionate teachers who tell them how great they are.

I'm not going to condemn Snape unilaterally because of his 
attitudes (though I disagree with him on specific issues certainly) 
because to do so would mean condemning men who helped to save my 
life - and I mean that quite literally. Because they had those 
attitudes, and they engaged in those practices that other people 
find so horrible in a teacher. And thank God, they did, or I 
probably wouldn't be here now - even if I'd survived, I wouldn't 
have been the same person.

I'm sacrificing a six figure income and a job I quite enjoy to 
become a teacher, and to dedicate my life to children and I'm doing 
that *because* of teachers like Snape. I don't intend to be one - 
because frankly, I don't think teaching like that, is something 
that will be effective for me.

Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good teacher? 
No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have enough real 
information one way or the other to be sure. To assess whether he 
is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a lot more than just how 
he manages a classroom - like the results he achieves.

I just feel that people shouldn't be so quick to condemn a man - 
even a fictional construct - because you personally disagree with 
his teaching methods, or because those methods wouldn't have suited 
you. People who did things like that helped to create the school 
that hurt me. 

My sig quote is there for a reason. In many ways, it's the story of 
my education.

> Let's try a different but related topic.  Why do you think it is that 
> so many people are reacting is such a way to so many aspects of HP?  
> It speaks to the books themselves, of course, but frankly I don't 
> think they are great literature in their own right, and certainly 
> almost nothing in them is original.
> 
> I think it has to do with changes in the way we approach things.  I 
> rather doubt that, had HP come out thirty years ago, this type of 
> thing would have happened.  Partly that is because the internet has 
> made commenting and arguing easier.  Partly though, I tend to follow 
> Umbert Eco when he talks about "hyper-reality."

I definitely think you are on to the nub of the issue here. I think 
a lot has to do with the net.

I first encountered the Harry Potter books because they were being 
discussed on the educational forums I hung around on - this was 
before they *really* started to get popular, just before they 
really took off. The people on these lists (lists involving gifted 
children and the issues associated with them) were raving about 
these books - mostly because of the character of Hermione IIRC. 
Because the majority of the people were American, I assumed they 
were American books, and just skimmed over the discussions. Then I 
was walking past a bookshop and saw the first book (or the first 
two?) in the window, and was honestly intrigued by the cover - this 
was one of the 'adult' editions and it seemed an odd cover for a 
kids book to have - so I brought it and read it. I was immediately 
hit with parallels to my own life (including, I'm afraid, with the 
parallels to the Snapelike teachers I had) and was hooked - but I 
doubt I ever would have encountered them without the net - unless 
and until the hype started - and mass media hype tends to turn me 
off things.

> What he said, while visiting Disney World, was that the western world 
> has reached a state where everything, including myths and legends, 
> has become literal.  Due to the fascination with technology, the 
> spread of rights movements, the success of communications technology, 
> and numerous other factors, "Because I said so" or "Because it needs 
> to be that way for the plot" just isn't good enough for a large 
> section of the literate population.  We tend to approach EVERYTHING 
> as real and literal.  We want to know all the why's and how's.  HOW 
> does the Wizarding Government work?  WHY does Dumbledore let Snape 
> act that way?  WHAT do parents do if the teaching techniques at 
> Hogwarts don't work/actively harm their child?

There have always been bookclubs and people have always discussed 
things like this - I think how the net changes things, though, is 
that you can so easily find people with other interests. I'm a fan 
of a rather obscure 1970s British Sci Fi TV show. Until I was... 20 
or so, I never really encountered another fan - then somebody 
online started a mailing list for the show back in 1995 - and 
within three months 100 fans (or so) from all around the world were 
talking about it like old friends - most of them having had the 
same experience of never encountering another fan.

The nature of the net means that you can online and virtually 
always find someone to talk to about any topic that interests you. 
That makes it more likely people are going to make the effort to 
actually do so, which in turn further increases the number of 
people available.

In the last week online, I have discussed the following things: 
Military conscription, the novel (and the movie) Starship Troopers, 
the Solomon Islands, Heinlein, conservatism versus liberalism, the 
defence policy of Switzerland, careers advice at Hogwarts, how 
prefects are chosen at Hogwarts, subject choice at Hogwarts, F-
111s, parody websites, the Australian computer underground of the 
late 1980s/early 1990s, a poem I wrote in 1989 about my school 
experiences, the vexing question of which is nice - oreos or tim 
tams, tobacco taxation, the idea of a 'fat tax', and, of course, 
Snape as a teacher. I have easily available forums for all of this 
in a single week. That's a huge change in the world. And, as you 
say, a definite trend has emerged in literature discussion - I'd 
say it's a definite trend in all discussion - literature just gets 
its share.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia