[HPforGrownups] Re: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/Different Topic

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 101858

On 17 Jun 2004 at 11:29, dzeytoun wrote:

> Shaun said:
> 
>  A lot of these 
> > kids are *very* attracted to the world they see in Harry Potter - 
> > and a couple I know of have significant contact with rather Snape 
> > like teachers - who they value in the same way I value the ones I 
> > encountered... regarding such teachers as irredeemably abusive - 
> > well, to a great extent, that comes very close to telling these 
> > kids if they are reading, that there is something *wrong* with them 
> > - or that their experiences as students are somehow less valuable 
> > or less correct than the people who like all their wonderfully 
> > kind, compassionate teachers who tell them how great they are.
> 
> OK.  I'm not sure that a method or tradition is worthwhile simply 
> because some people derive benefit from it.  There are lots of things 
> out there that benefit some people that nevertheless, as a whole, 
> create more pain and harm in the world than they do good.  I won't 
> give some obvious historical examples because I think I would be 
> perceived as being hurtful and making comparisons I really don't 
> intend to make.
>
> Still, I acknowledge your point.
  
It's all very well to say that some things cause more pain and harm 
in the world than they do good - except when you're one of the 
people who they would do good for, and you've had to spend much of 
your life dealing with the fact that the rights of everyone else 
are put ahead of yours - and that it's considered fine and dandy to 
do this, because it's not fair to hurt anyone else. When you're 
being hurt because it's not happening - the argument tends to 
collapse from at least your perspective. I'm not saying it doesn't 
have any relevance of course - if you have a black and white choice 
with no alternatives between hurting one person or hurting a 
hundred, then it's pretty obvious where the better choices lies. 
But things are rarely black and white, and there's rarely no 
alternatives.

There's also the question of numbers - at the school I attended, it 
was pretty clear that the methods used worked for most of the 
students there. What we did didn't effect anyone else, so that was 
the only measure that really counted.

With regards to Harry Potter, and Hogwarts, the only relevant 
question is whether the methods used at that school work at that 
school. It's not particularly relevant whether or not they work 
outside the school, or if they'd work at another school.

Do we have evidence that Hogwarts methods are causing the students 
widespread damage? Do we have evidence that Snape is causing the 
students widespread damage.

In all honesty, the only person I ever see described as being at 
risk of showing any lasting harm at all as a result of Snape's 
actions is Neville. One student. And personally, I'm not 
particularly sure there's much reason to suppose Neville has 
suffered any lasting harm. But even if he has - he's one among many 
- if you want to base your arguments on the number of people 
supposedly hurt.

Does Harry show evidence of lasting harm from what Snape does to 
him? Does Hermione? Does Ron? Do any of the other students show 
evidence of lasting harm?
 
> > Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good teacher? 
> > No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have enough real 
> > information one way or the other to be sure. To assess whether he 
> > is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a lot more than just how 
> > he manages a classroom - like the results he achieves.
> 
> This is an excellent point and one with which I totally agree.  Lots 
> of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his 
> students' performance.  I think this is largely speculation.  I did 
> an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no 
> references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance 
> out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that 
> people regarded him as making students learn, etc.  All the 
> references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to 
> his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students 
> learn, etc.  McGonagall at least obliquely acknowledges, in 
> the "Career Advice" part of OOTP, that some people just don't seem to 
> prosper very well under Snape's tutelage.

Yes, and I'd be pretty sure that some people don't prosper very 
well under McGonagall's tutelage, or Sprout's, or Trelawneys', or 
Binns', or Sinistra's, or Hagrid's.

I'd be rather surprised if you could find a single teacher on the 
planet in whose classes, every child they have ever taught has 
prospered very well.

I also it's worth considering the school and the environment we see 
at Hogwarts.

This is a school where 11 year old children are sent into a forest 
in the middle of the night to hunt something that is killing 
unicorns, and which a half giant arms himself against, as a form of 
*detention*. This is a school where children engage in a sport at 
high speed and altitude, which we have seen result in some very 
impressive injuries. This is a school where when an ancient monster 
is roaming the corridors petrifying students, classes continue 
virtually as normal. This is a school where the trees are capable 
of killing you, and which spent a year guarded by creatures that 
could suck out your soul. A school where an interschool sports 
involves dodging dragon breath!

And this is a world where when confronted with a small boy who 
shows no sign of magical talent, and who has had to deal with 
massive trauma in his life, his relatives dangle him out of windows 
to help him develop magic. This is a world where the 'ideal mother 
figure' we are shown once beat one of her sons with a broomstick.

We have a teacher who acted as a host to a figure of dire evil. We 
have a teacher who was a total fraud and who attempted to memory 
charm a pair of children to preserve his secrets. We have a teacher 
who was a servant of evil in disguise. We have a teacher who is so 
boring, his students regularly fall asleep in class. We have a 
teacher who regularly predicts the deaths of her students...

And people are seriously worried about Snape damaging the children? 

(-8

It's also a school, of course, where the Prefects and the Head Boy 
and Girl are so capable as to be placed as the final line of 
defence when there is a mass murderer roaming the school. And it's 
a school where a group of Fifth and Fourth Year students were 
ready, willing, and able, to charge into danger to try and protect 
a friend - and when they do, fight and survive a battle with some 
of the most evil people in their world.

"'Go on then,' said Harry, raising his own wand to chest height. As 
he did so, the five wands of Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna 
rose on either side of him."

These are the type of children that Hogwarts produces.

And poor, damaged, Neville, so harmed by Snape...

"'He's dot alone!' shouted a voice from above them. 'He's still god 
be!'"

In the real world of modern education, I somehow doubt Hogwarts 
would survive as a school. But in the Wizarding world, it seems to 
produce the kids they want.  



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


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