[HPforGrownups] Re: OK we're to THAT point on Snape/

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 101859

This bounced back at me, so I will try again.

On 17 Jun 2004 at 11:29, dzeytoun wrote: 
  
> OK.  I'm not sure that a method or tradition is worthwhile simply 
> because some people derive benefit from it.  There are lots of things 
> out there that benefit some people that nevertheless, as a whole, 
> create more pain and harm in the world than they do good.  I won't 
> give some obvious historical examples because I think I would be 
> perceived as being hurtful and making comparisons I really don't 
> intend to make. 
> 
> Still, I acknowledge your point. 
   
It's all very well to say that some things cause more pain and harm  
in the world than they do good - except when you're one of the  
people who they would do good for, and you've had to spend much of  
your life dealing with the fact that the rights of everyone else  
are put ahead of yours - and that it's considered fine and dandy to  
do this, because it's not fair to hurt anyone else. When you're  
being hurt because it's not happening - the argument tends to  
collapse from at least your perspective. I'm not saying it doesn't  
have any relevance of course - if you have a black and white choice  
with no alternatives between hurting one person or hurting a  
hundred, then it's pretty obvious where the better choices lies.  
But things are rarely black and white, and there's rarely no  
alternatives. 

There's also the question of numbers - at the school I attended, it  
was pretty clear that the methods used worked for most of the  
students there. What we did didn't effect anyone else, so that was  
the only measure that really counted. 

With regards to Harry Potter, and Hogwarts, the only relevant  
question is whether the methods used at that school work at that  
school. It's not particularly relevant whether or not they work  
outside the school, or if they'd work at another school. 

Do we have evidence that Hogwarts methods are causing the students  
widespread damage? Do we have evidence that Snape is causing the  
students widespread damage. 

In all honesty, the only person I ever see described as being at  
risk of showing any lasting harm at all as a result of Snape's  
actions is Neville. One student. And personally, I'm not  
particularly sure there's much reason to suppose Neville has  
suffered any lasting harm. But even if he has - he's one among many  
- if you want to base your arguments on the number of people  
supposedly hurt. 

Does Harry show evidence of lasting harm from what Snape does to  
him? Does Hermione? Does Ron? Do any of the other students show  
evidence of lasting harm? 
  
> > Now am I saying that Professor Severus Snape *is* a good 
> > teacher?  No, not really. I'm of the opinion we don't have 
> > enough real information one way or the other to be sure. To
> > assess whether he is a good teacher, you'd need to look at a 
> > lot more than just how  he manages a classroom - like the 
> > results he achieves. 
>  
> This is an excellent point and one with which I totally agree.  Lots 
> of people opine that Snape gets good results in terms of his 
> students' performance.  I think this is largely speculation.  I did 
> an admittedly fast review of canon last night and could find no 
> references in which it was indicated that Snape got good performance 
> out of his students, that they generally did well on OWLS, that 
> people regarded him as making students learn, etc.  All the 
> references I could find - and I may well have missed some - speak to 
> his own personal expertise at potions, NOT to how much his students 
> learn, etc.  McGonagall at least obliquely acknowledges, in  the
> "Career Advice" part of OOTP, that some people just don't seem to 
> prosper very well under Snape's tutelage. 

Yes, and I'd be pretty sure that some people don't prosper very  
well under McGonagall's tutelage, or Sprout's, or Trelawneys', or  
Binns', or Sinistra's, or Hagrid's. 

I'd be rather surprised if you could find a single teacher on the  
planet in whose classes, every child they have ever taught has  
prospered very well. 

I also it's worth considering the school and the environment we see  
at Hogwarts. 

This is a school where 11 year old children are sent into a forest  
in the middle of the night to hunt something that is killing  
unicorns, and which a half giant arms himself against, as a form of  
*detention*. This is a school where children engage in a sport at  
high speed and altitude, which we have seen result in some very  
impressive injuries. This is a school where when an ancient monster  
is roaming the corridors petrifying students, classes continue  
virtually as normal. This is a school where the trees are capable  
of killing you, and which spent a year guarded by creatures that  
could suck out your soul. A school where an interschool sports  
involves dodging dragon breath! 

And this is a world where when confronted with a small boy who  
shows no sign of magical talent, and who has had to deal with  
massive trauma in his life, his relatives dangle him out of windows  
to help him develop magic. This is a world where the 'ideal mother  
figure' we are shown once beat one of her sons with a broomstick. 

We have a teacher who acted as a host to a figure of dire evil. We  
have a teacher who was a total fraud and who attempted to memory  
charm a pair of children to preserve his secrets. We have a teacher  
who was a servant of evil in disguise. We have a teacher who is so  
boring, his students regularly fall asleep in class. We have a  
teacher who regularly predicts the deaths of her students... 

And people are seriously worried about Snape damaging the children?  

(-8 

It's also a school, of course, where the Prefects and the Head Boy  
and Girl are so capable as to be placed as the final line of  
defence when there is a mass murderer roaming the school. And it's  
a school where a group of Fifth and Fourth Year students were  
ready, willing, and able, to charge into danger to try and protect  
a friend - and when they do, fight and survive a battle with some  
of the most evil people in their world. 

"'Go on then,' said Harry, raising his own wand to chest height. As  
he did so, the five wands of Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna  
rose on either side of him." 

These are the type of children that Hogwarts produces. 

And poor, damaged, Neville, so harmed by Snape... 

"'He's dot alone!' shouted a voice from above them. 'He's still god  
be!'" 

In the real world of modern education, I somehow doubt Hogwarts  
would survive as a school. But in the Wizarding world, it seems to  
produce the kids they want.   


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia