[HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 101949

On 18 Jun 2004 at 15:21, darrin_burnett wrote:
 
> You expect a group of students to band together and say "Hell no, we won't 
> go!"
> 
> All I keep hearing about is the culture of abuse that is somehow acceptable in 
> these schools, even though NO OTHER teacher behaves like Snape. 
> Wouldn't that culture also mean kids aren't going to be as independent? 

OK - I'm worried that I've left this impression (seeing as I'm the 
one who always goes on about the cultures of the school) so I'd 
better make some clarifications here.

Understand here, that I am giving only one view of the cultural 
background inherent in schools with similar educational traditions 
to those that JKR seems to have drawn on in creating Hogwarts. The 
views I express are not at all uncommon, but they are also 
certainly not universal. Large books have been written examining 
these schools and the cultural characteristics - I have a bunch of 
these actually next to me at the moment as my exams finished 
yesterday so I have six or so weeks free of study, and am 
considering the idea of writing some seriously detailed analysis of 
Hogwarts and it's influences from British Public School tradition.

Now, having made it clear that I'm offering one perspective, let me 
continue.

These schools actually tend to produce very independent young 
people - far more independent than is normal. This is partly 
because of the intentions of the such schools - they consider it 
their business to create the future leaders of society, and that 
means creating people who are capable of acting without leadership, 
and thinking independently. They *want* to create Fred and George, 
at least as much as they want to create Percy - because leadership 
in a society requires those who will act independently and create 
new fields of endeavour, as well as those who will work within the 
established order to keep things running smoothly.

Now, I can understand where the idea that they might produce less 
independent people might come from, if a person is working from the 
perspective that a 'culture of abuse' is acceptable in these 
schools.

But the point is, such a culture is *not* acceptable in these 
schools. The reason it may seem that way to outsiders is because 
outsiders have a *different* idea of what abuse is, than insiders 
do.

Please understand I am not saying the outside perspective is 
necessarily the wrong one, or that the inside perspective is 
necessarily the right one. Perfectly reasonable arguments can be 
made that those looking in from the outside are making a better 
judgement than those inside the system. But that isn't the point - 
there is a cultural divide at work here - and if you want to 
understand the schools, you need to try to understand the culture 
as it is within the schools. The beliefs as they are within the 
schools. You don't have to agree with them - but if you don't 
acknowledge them for the sake of understanding the schools, you 
never will understand the schools.

Again, let me clear. I'm not saying these schools are monolithic 
cultural entities - not everyone in such a school necessarily 
agrees with the common beliefs of the school - they are just 
*generally* true for *most* people in the school - not universally 
true for all. And they *do* change over time, and they *are* 
influenced by the views of the outside world. Many 'traditional' 
schools have changed over time to have beliefs quite different from 
these old established ones - but, by no means, all. And Hogwarts, 
as presented to us in the books, is, like the rest of the Wizarding 
World, quite anachronistic in many ways. Quite old fashioned.

(I apologise for the length of these clarifications - I might be 
overdoing it.)

Back to the point - Darrin, you talk about a 'culture of abuse.' I 
can understand where that idea comes from, but it is an outsider 
view.

The point is that *within a particular school*, these practices are 
often *not* seen as abusive. It doesn't matter much if they would 
be in the outside world - that's not relevant to considering the 
attitudes within the school. Snide comments from a teacher, cruel 
comments from a teacher *are not* considered to be abuse - but 
rather may be seen as a normal part of school life.

Looking at Hogwarts - many of the students probably think Snape 
goes further than he should, or he needs to - and they resent that. 
But he doesn't go far enough that they are likely to consider it to 
be *abusive*. Consider the school we are seeing from the 
perspective of its students, and the world they live in. *Forget* 
the outside world which colours your views - and consider the world 
that colours their views. They are in a school where, we have some 
indications that punishments like hanging students from the walls 
in chains, and flogging them with horsewhips are relevant cultural 
memories (even though it hasn't happened to the students there now, 
they still know about it in history - possibly fairly recent 
history - it's hard to be sure). They are in a school where 
detention can be a potentially life threatening experience. And the 
live in a world where there was a reign of terror when they were 
*infants* or just before they were born - this is a society where 
the threat of *murder* was a very real one in recent history. 
Understand that their cultural experiences are different from most 
of ours, and that does influence their cultural beliefs.

As far as these children are concerned, there isn't a 'culture of 
abuse' operating within Hogwarts. Children at any modern school 
might well have a different attitude - but we're not dealing with 
children at any modern school.

*If* all the teachers were like Snape, things might actually be a 
bit different - but it's the fact that he is one among many that 
means he doesn't have a huge impact on the culture of the entire 
school. They have lots of teachers who are 'odd' in some way.

So the fact that these children do not rebel against what is 
happening isn't a sign that they are not independent - it's simply 
a sign that what they are experiencing isn't, in their view, 
serious enough to warrant rebellion.

Historically speaking, in the UK, some students in some schools 
routinely endured what today virtually everybody would agree is 
abusive. I could give examples, but I don't think that's really 
necessary. They accepted that because in their culture it wasn't 
abusive - but that didn't make them meek and mild when they felt 
that somebody *had* overstepped the mark. *If* they felt that an 
injustice *had* occurred, that's when you get to see how 
independent they really were. The line wasn't in the same place 
we'd put it today - but when the line was crossed according to 
their cultural beliefs - they took action.

There were rebellions at some of Britain's most exclusive 
independent schools in the 18th and 19th century - and I use the 
term rebellion deliberately. On a couple of occasions, the Army had 
to be called in to suppress the students. Lord Byron, the famous 
poet, lead a rebellion when he was at Harrow, in which the students 
spread explosives around the school. The last major rebellion (at 
Marlborough in 1851) lasted a week - with fireworks being set off 
constantly around the school (sound familiar?). After a week the 
Headmaster was forced to capitulate and surrendered to his 
students, giving into all of the students demands. (Note, I have a 
fairly detailed account of the entire rebellion from a book - it's 
not that long, but too long to paste in here to any purpose - but 
if anyone would like to see it, just ask and I will mail it to you 
- reading Order of the Phoenix, I do wonder if JKR knew this 
story!).

When they felt things had gone too far - the students showed how 
independent they were.

The students at Hogwarts don't rebel against Snape - because what 
Snape does isn't really worthy of it.

*But* they do rebel against Umbridge - because she crosses the 
line. She *does* violate the cultural beliefs of the school. And 
that is what creates a reaction. It takes some time - because the 
older students who are the natural leaders of any rebellion, being 
those most familiar with the school and its traditions, tend to 
give the school time to 'self-correct' it's problems. You don't 
revolt until and unless things don't change.

But when it becomes clear that Umbridge has gone too far - and 
things aren't going to step back - the rebellion begins.

And it's not just the students who rise up to defend their school 
and the way they want it to be - so do the ghosts, so do the 
teachers.  


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia