[HPforGrownups] Re: Question for Snape Bashers

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 102389

On 22 Jun 2004 at 2:32, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Then yes, his constant abuse of Neville in class pales in comparison 
> to this.

Constant abuse of Neville?

The question is - is there really constant abuse of Neville?

Following an off list discussion I've had recently I decided to 
look through the books to see precisely how Snape deals with 
Neville. Because prior to OotP, I had the impression that Snape was 
harming Neville - OotP made me reassess that, but I just thought it 
would be interesting to see how Snape really does treat Neville 
specifically.

I was surprised at how few references I could find to Snape's 
interactions with Neville. And reading them, they don't strike me 
as anywhere near as bad as I'd thought previously.

I can't swear I've got every reference - I've tried to find them 
all, but if people know of any I've missed, it could certainly 
change things.

Page numbers refer to the British editions.

Incident 1: Philosopher's Stone, p.103.

Neville melts a cauldron, apparently because he didn't follow 
Snape's instructions. The potions damages other students shoes and 
causes the entire class to have to get to higher ground. Neville is 
covered in boils as a result of this.

Snape's response - he calls him an 'idiot boy' and sends him to the 
hospital wing.

OK - perhaps not the nicest thing in the world to say - but to a 
boy who has caused that much havoc because he didn't follow 
instructions, I can't really see that as particularly bad.

Incident 2: Chamber of Secrets, p.140.

No details given at all except that Snape walks off to bully 
Neville. No details, cannot be assessed.

Incident 3: Chamber of Secrets, p.144.

At the dueling club, Snape tells Lockhart that Neville causes 
devastation with the simplest spells.

OK, again, not nice for Neville to hear - but hardly a huge deal 
*in the context of normal practice at Hogwarts - more on that after 
going through the examples.*

Incident 4: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.95-96.

Neville again fails to follow instructions. Snape asks if nothing 
penetrates his thick skull, and tells him that they'll test the 
potion on his toad, so he'd better get it right.

We're dealing now with a boy who has on at least one previous 
occasion, made the same type of mistake. He has not followed simple 
instructions. Again, I don't really see this as that bad.

Incident 5: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.97-98.

Continuation of the previous incident. Neville is obviously working 
hard (with Hermione's help which she shouldn't be giving). Snape 
carries out his threat to test the potion on Trevor the Toad. It 
works as designed.

Now, this one interests me - because Neville *is* working hard - 
Hermione is helping but Neville is doing the work. We know Snape 
can tell if this potion is mixed correctly by its colour - so he 
presumably knows Neville has mixed it correctly. He administers to 
Trevor - and when it work restores Trevor with an antidote - and 
then he takes 5 point from Hermione for helping Neville.

He doesn't punish Neville at this time, for accepting her help. 
Even though, frankly, it's tantamount to cheating. I can't fault 
him at all here.

Incident 6: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.100.

Again a follow on from this incident - in the next class, Snape 
tells Lupin not to trust Neville with anything difficult - unless 
Hermione is whispering in his ear.

Now Neville gets a fairly restrained public reprimand for his 
cheating. I'm not saying I approve of it - but in the context of 
Hogwarts (I will get to this) it's hardly a big deal.

Incident 7: Prisoner of Azkaban, p.107.

Aftermath of the class above - where Neville dressed the Snape 
boggart in his grandmother's clothes, it is mentioned that Snape is 
bullying Neville worse than ever. 

Again, no details so it's hard to assess how bad it really is - but 
if it is genuine bullying, then, yes, it's wrong - but we can't 
accurately judge it.

Incident 8, Goblet of Fire, p.185.

Neville melts his sixth cauldron, and is given a detention where he 
has to disembowel a barrel of horned toads. Hardly a 
earthshattering detention by Hogwarts standards, even allowing for 
the fact that Neville may like toads. It's something that has to be 
done.

I don't see this as bad at all.

Incident 9: Order of the Phoenix, p. 209.

Snape gives his start of year lecture telling the students he 
expects them to pass his subject and his gaze lingers on Neville - 
who gulps.

Hardly worth mentioning, but I'm trying to be complete.

Incident 10: Order of the Phoenix, p.322

Neville provoked attacks Malfoy and has to be held back by Ron and 
Harry. Snape catches them and takes ten points away.

Very mild treatment for fighting in the corridors. Snape could have 
done far worse.

And that's it. That's all I can find.

Out of the 10 incidents, 2 and 7 can't be assessed in my opinion, 
due to lack of detail.

1,4,8, and 10 are disciplinary matters - Neville does something to 
deserve what he gets - and while by some of our standards, the 
discipline may seem wronghanded in some cases, in the context of 
Hogwarts (in a minute!) it's hardly unusual.

6 may also fit this category, but it's less clear cut.

5 in my opinion, may well show Snape in proper teaching mode - he's 
motivated Neville to do better, Neville has done better.

9 is so minor as to mean nothing.

7 is the only case where I think Neville is genuinely hard done by. 
Snape's been provoked, but it's not Neville's fault.

I can't really find the evidence for this supposed continued abuse 
of Neville.

Yes, Snape, uses public reprimands as a disciplinary technique, and 
many modern educational psychologists disapprove of this method 
(personally, I think it has a place sometimes (it certainly was 
something I wanted to avoid!), but I'll acknowledge that current 
views are often against it).

But we do need to consider the context of Hogwarts (finally!).

Public reprimand is a *common* disciplinary technique in the 
Wizarding World.

Howlers are the prime example of this.

McGonagall uses this technique:

"Professor McGonagall pulled herself back through the portrait
hole to face the stunned crowd. She was white as chalk.

'Which person,' she said, her voice shaking, 'which abysmally
foolish person wrote down this week's passwords and left them
lying around?'"

Within the context of Hogwarts, such reprimands seem a normal part 
of teaching practice. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find Snape 
uses them more often. But it's obviously not frowned on.

Honestly - is Snape's treatment of Neville really that bad? I 
confess - I thought it was until I did this analysis - I thought it 
was potentially justified if it worked, but I did think Snape was 
often unfair to Neville. Now, having looked in more detail, I'm 
really wondering if my own prejudices because of teasing I received 
as a child were coming out.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
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