Prophecy / Metamorphmagic / MQ / Pureblood / LV-HP-survival-death

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 103013

Kneasy wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102985 :

<< My other theory is that [the Prophecy] refers to past events,
specifically Godric's Hollow, and that the "neither" that can live is
James and Lily and "while the other survives" refers to Harry. That
way the Prophecy highlights Harry's protection and the fact that his
parents had to die for it to take effect. I posted that last year too,
mostly to the roar of thunderous indifference. Ah, well. 'Twas ever
thus. Too clever for my own good, sometimes. >>

Keep posting your theories and eventually persistence will penetrate
our thick skulls. Does Dumbledore know that the Prophecy has already
been fulfilled, making it all the better a red herring to distract bad
guys and good guys from his real plan? If yes, then how is he so
certain that Harry is the only effective weapon against LV? If no --
Dumbledore at *that* level of lack of wisdom and knowledge makes me
shudder for the good guys.

Fiona wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102996 :

<< 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid,' said Tonks.
'Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards
need to use a wand, or potions, to change their appearance. But we've
got to get going, Harry,...'

I thought the text rather ambiguous in that Tonks doesn't give a
straight yes or no to Harry's question. Her comment that he would have
to 'learn  the hard way' does, to me, imply that this talent can be
learned to some degree if it's not innate. But that's almost
immediately contradicted by  'they're born, not made'. Mayhap it's
'not proven' until HP6 or beyond. >>

Oh. I took Tonks statement to mean "You'll have to learn the hard way
of changing your appearance, with a wand, or potions, instead of the
easy way that Metamorphmagi are born with."

Steve/asian_lovr2 wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102999 :

<< With only 1-in-4 magical people getting into Hogwarts, where do the
other 3 go? That seems to be a tremendous amount of magical potential
going to waste.

Certainly we don't need to concern ourselves with those who are Squib
and near-Squib; although, I don't believe Squibs are completely devoid
of magical talent. But what about those who are just below the
standard. Certainly over a lifetime, they will develope substantial
magical potential, and it seem unwise not to mention dangerous, to
have all the magical potential running around without any guidance or
control. >>

Shaun hypothesized that the ones in contact with the wizarding world
will be taught by their parents and via apprenticeship and maybe via
Kwik-Spel, while the ones not in contact with wizards won't manifest
magical powers. Going upthread to Shaun's post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102975  he said:
<< Now - perhaps exposure to magic makes it easier forcspontaneous
magic to occur. If a person has an MP score of 900 (minimum for
spontaneous magic) perhaps that only expresses itself if they have had
a chance to use basic magical devices or have lived in a magical
environment. >>

BrwNeil wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103000 :  

<< In order to be considered a pureblood your ancestry must be made up
of only wizards and witches and at no time tainted by muggle blood. >>

Which is why Steven/asian_lovr2 made up the term "fullblood" for the
ones who can' *prove* that they're "pureblood". In CoS, Ernie
Macmillan said: "I might tell you that you can trace my family back
through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as
pure as anyone's". Which, while raising the question of what he/JKR
means by 'warlock', suggests that Nine Generations is the definition
of "pureblood". OoP showed the Black Family Tapestry, going back to
the fifteenth century (1400s), so I immediately wondered whether the
reason it stopped there is that the very next ancestor back was a
Muggle. How many generations fit in roughly 500 years depend on what
age the people tend to start child-bearing: it could range from 25
generations if each of Sirius's ancestors was born when its parents
were 20, to 5 generations if each was born when its parents were 100.

Wanda wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103006 :

<< I wonder, is it perhaps *impossible* for Voldemort to die? I
remember in PS, when Hagrid is describing the aftermath of the GH
confrontation, he says that some thought that Voldemort was dead, but
HE figured that LV didn't have enough human left in him to die. I've
always wondered why LV *didn't* die at Godric's Hollow. >>

I've always felt confident that LV didn't *die* at Godric's Hollow
because some of his attempts at immortality had worked. To theorists
who believe that Voldemort is a separate immortal entity which
possesses different people down the ages, then Vapormort was simply
Voldemort dispossessed of his host and his host, TMR, was simply dead
as normal. 

<< Perhaps Harry has the power to die, which Voldemort is incapable
of, at least under present circumstances. >>

Phil Vlasek pointed out in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103008 that
canon is that LV is not immortal at the moment. 

<< I think that Harry's survival and his survival were somehow linked
- basically, they were both hit by an AK curse, and both survived when
neither should have. (snip) I can imagine the possibility that Harry's
death might finally make it *possible* for Voldemort to die >>

I think that the link between LV's survival and HP's survival was
forged in the re-embodiment ceremony in GoF, not in the Godric's
Hollow attack. Because of the infamous gleam in DD's eye: "He said my
blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry
told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my ... my mother left in me
... he'd have it, too. And he was right ... he could touch me without
hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry
thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes.
But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when
Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old
and weary as Harry had ever seen him." 

To me, triumph gleamed because LV had foolishly made himself
vulnerable to HP; depression replaced it when DD recalled that the
method of LV's vulnerability is that LV and HP will die only at the
same time, i.e. death of this child for whom he feels parental
affection. My book 7 prediction is that HP shows his heroism by
continuing to fight LV despite knowing that it means his own death. I
imagine them burning up in a fireball together, or falling deep into
the lake under Hogwarts... this was somehow made possible only
Neville, who fought his way through LV's guards and leapt into the
fight so it was two against one ... and died, too, of course.

I'm irritated at the stupid Prophecy for saying "for neither can live
while the other survives" instead of "for neither can DIE while the
other survives".

Bren wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103009 :

<< >>> Phil: Now Phil quickly looks up in GOF, CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE
> THE DEATH EATERS
> LV says...
> But I was willing to
> embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my
> sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and
> my old strength. <<<

Bren now:

What does he mean by his "old body"?
(1) The old Tom Riddle body? or...
(2) The old Voldemort before his downfall at GH?

I'm leaning towards (1) myself, although I can't see why LV would
willingly go back to his half-Muggle, mortal body that hadn't been
contaminated by many dangerous Dark transformations.

But if LV meant (2), how is his new body so different from the old VM
one that he will want to "settle for" it? >>

He must mean his old LV body from before his downfall, because that is
what he got: hairless scaly noseless red-eyed snake-man. Snakes are
traditional symbols of immortality (because they cast their skins and
look new and shiny again), so it makes sense that some of his
experiments in magical immortality (maybe not the ones that worked)
would make him look like a snake.

I took it for granted that "settle for my old body back again, and my
old strength" meant he would settle for two out three, body & strength
without immortality.